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:Not only Palestinian Christians - the Vatican itself, the largest Christian church in the world, refers to it as "the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound": https://www.vaticannews.va/en/world/news/2022-04/jerusalem-clashes-palestinians-israeli-police-settlements-al-aqs.html or simply as "Al-Aqsa mosque": https://www.vaticannews.va/en/world/news/2021-05/wcc-pope-francis-appeal-calm-jerusalem-palestinian-clashes.html [[User:Dan Palraz|Dan Palraz]] ([[User talk:Dan Palraz|talk]]) 08:25, 20 June 2022 (UTC) |
:Not only Palestinian Christians - the Vatican itself, the largest Christian church in the world, refers to it as "the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound": https://www.vaticannews.va/en/world/news/2022-04/jerusalem-clashes-palestinians-israeli-police-settlements-al-aqs.html or simply as "Al-Aqsa mosque": https://www.vaticannews.va/en/world/news/2021-05/wcc-pope-francis-appeal-calm-jerusalem-palestinian-clashes.html [[User:Dan Palraz|Dan Palraz]] ([[User talk:Dan Palraz|talk]]) 08:25, 20 June 2022 (UTC) |
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None of the above sources make the assertions being claimed at all, let alone “clearly”. |
None of the above sources make the assertions being claimed at all, let alone “clearly”. Which isn't to say it's not true, just that that source isn't discussing names/terms. |
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⚫ | As for the Vatican “The view from here is one of the best and most intriguing of the western part of the Holy City, its walls, famous Mosques built on the Temple Mount“ https://www.vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_june-sept-1996_motta_en.html [[User:Drsmoo|Drsmoo]] ([[User talk:Drsmoo|talk]]) 14:21, 20 June 2022 (UTC) |
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:That's sort of why it needs disambiguating, lol.[[User:Selfstudier|Selfstudier]] ([[User talk:Selfstudier|talk]]) 11:05, 20 June 2022 (UTC) |
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::The Vatican uses the term "Holy Basin" for the Temple Mount and the wider area. In Italian, the site is called Monte del Tempio, which conforms with https://www.google.com/books/edition/Where_Heaven_and_Earth_Meet/CW6U921i4fEC?hl=en&gbpv=0 "In Rabbinic tradition the area is known as "the Temple Mount" (Har ha-bayit; literally: "Mountain of the House"); '''the same term recurs today in modern European languages'''." Temple Mount is also, from my own personal research, the term used in Japanese, Korean, and Chinese. [[User:Drsmoo|Drsmoo]] ([[User talk:Drsmoo|talk]]) 13:35, 20 June 2022 (UTC) |
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[[User:Drsmoo|Drsmoo]] ([[User talk:Drsmoo|talk]]) 11:00, 20 June 2022 (UTC) |
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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 June 2021
2A00:A040:198:919F:7CFD:140D:3710:1FC6 (talk) 09:30, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ◎ | melecie | t 09:45, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 July 2021
2405:3800:84C:1C73:BFE8:1B92:BD8B:9896 (talk) 11:43, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
<Al-Aqsa Mosque was built by King Solomon some David>
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:56, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 August 2021
In the section Definition, please delete these repeated words: "to the to the silver-domed mosque on the compound's southern side". 109.175.155.99 (talk) 14:41, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
- Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:43, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
Recent edits regarding gates
@Aye1399: Thank you for your recent additions to the article. Unfortunately, I had to remove them as they pertain to the gates of the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount. Although "al-Aqsa" may also refer to the entire Haram, this article is specifically about the mosque. You may want to move the material to the Gates of the Temple Mount. If you do so, please avoid adding any redundant material or information cited to non-reliable sources. --Al Ameer (talk) 16:09, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
Naming
As far as I know, the predominant, prevalent, common English term for this structure is "Al-Aqsa Mosque". It is well noted in Academic sources, international media reports, and other publications. On the same time, the term "al-Qibli chapel" is virtually non-existent in English-language sources. In Google Scholar, I found 17,000 mentions of the term al-Aqsa Mosque, while "al-Qibli Chapel" is mentioned only 74 times, and most of the mentions do not refer to the site in question on the Temple Mount. Due to this, WP:COMMONNAME requires that this article use the term "Al-Aqsa Mosque" rather than any another term. We don't want to confuse our readers. Thanks Tombah (talk) 13:36, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that avoiding confusion is key. Per the lede at Temple Mount, and the discussion at Talk:Temple Mount#Naming, "Al-Aqsa Mosque" seems to be primarily used for the subject of our Temple Mount article. That is certainly the case for all the press surrounding the 2022 Al-Aqsa Mosque clashes. I am not sure about the primary name for the topic of this article, but it is clear that the name Al Aqsa Mosque needs disambiguation. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:33, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
See discussion at Talk:Temple Mount#Al Aqsa Mosque, where many sources have been provided which confirm this. Onceinawhile (talk) 02:06, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
- These and more have now been added to the article.
- Noone at the discussion at Talk:Temple Mount has yet been able to show that there is a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the term "Al Aqsa Mosque".
- Assuming we cannot confirm a primary topic, the question will be how to appropriately disambiguate this article with a minor amendment to the title.
- Onceinawhile (talk) 22:40, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Onceinawhile: Do we need to consider having an Al-Aqsa Mosque (congregational mosque) / Al-Aqsa Mosque (compound)-type disambiguation? Iskandar323 (talk) 12:21, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
- I think those titles make a lot of sense. Onceinawhile (talk) 12:38, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Onceinawhile: Do we need to consider having an Al-Aqsa Mosque (congregational mosque) / Al-Aqsa Mosque (compound)-type disambiguation? Iskandar323 (talk) 12:21, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
Requested move 30 May 2022
Al-Aqsa Mosque → Al-Aqsa Mosque (congregational mosque) – Disambiguation of Al-Aqsa Mosque, as the term refers to both the congregational mosque ("Jami'a" in Arabic) or the entire mosque compound ("Masjid" in Arabic, cognate with Temple Mount). For sources see the "Definition" section of this article. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:35, 30 May 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 17:56, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
- Are you proposing to create a disambiguation page? What will become of Al-Aqsa Mosque? Is the hatnote really insufficient? I oppose because it seems to me that the primary topic is the building and not the complex. Al-Aqsa Mosque is frequently distinguished from the Dome of the Rock, for instance. The Encyclopaedia of Islam, 2nd ed., knows only the building as the masjid al-aqsa in its article. Srnec (talk) 00:05, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Just for the record, this
because it seems to me that the primary topic is the building and not the complex
is not consistent with our primary topic policy. Our PTOPIC policy doesn’t work in the same way as COMMONNAME, where we make a relative judgement. Our PTOPIC policy requires us to decide whether itis highly likely — much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined — to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term
. Noone has attempted to challenge this so far - for one, you would need to believe it was highly likely that a reader typing this name was not looking to learn about the third holiest site in Islam (which is confirmed as the compound in all the scholarly sources below). Onceinawhile (talk) 17:01, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Just for the record, this
- @Srnec: here is the article on Masjid Al-Aqsa from the Encyclopaedia of Islam, 2nd ed. It clearly explains both uses. Grabar, who wrote the article for the EoI, was wrong to not even mention Mujir ad-Din, Robinson, Palmer, Le Strange etc., who each explain the difference between Jami’a Al Aqsa and Masjid Al Aqsa – poor scholarship in a tertiary source.
- My belief is that the confusion in English stems from a back-translation of Mosque of Al Aqsa. Both Jami’a and Masjid are translated as Mosque, whilst the word Mosque is derived from Masjid, so the back-translation process would have been Jami’a -> Mosque -> Masjid.
- Yes disambiguation. For the ubiquitous term "al-Aqsa" the primary usage is very clearly the Temple Mount, as 100% of the events (see where they occurred) and organizations (see Dome of the Rock in most logos) are named for it. The term "al-Aqsa" in all these places is literally just a shortening of Masjid Al-Aqsa, i.e. "Al Aqsa Mosque".
- Onceinawhile (talk) 06:03, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- From the Encyclopedia of Islam source above, "The most common use of the words is for the large building located on the south side of the Haram platform and, next to the Dome of the Rock" Drsmoo (talk) 12:31, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- It also notes that the term was used for centuries for the Haram al-Sharif, and occasionally for the whole of Jerusalem. A versatile name indeed. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:44, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- And, per above, the "most common use of the words" is not the right policy-based test here. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:03, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- It also notes that the term was used for centuries for the Haram al-Sharif, and occasionally for the whole of Jerusalem. A versatile name indeed. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:44, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Another important reason for disambiguation is the widely known phrase "The Al Aqsa Mosque is the third holiest site in Islam". That refers to the Temple Mount, not this article. See for example: Lassner, J. (2017). Medieval Jerusalem: Forging an Islamic City in Spaces Sacred to Christians and Jews. University of Michigan Press. p. 36. ISBN 978-0-472-13036-8.
[Quoting Thawr ibn Yazid]: "The holiest part of the earth is al-Sham; the holiest part of al-Sham is [the subdistrict] Filastin; the holiest part of Filastin is Jerusalem (Bayt al-Maqdis), the holiest part of Jerusalem is the [temple] mount (al-jabal); the holiest part of the mount is the temple [rendered in Arabic as al-masjid], and the holiest part of the temple is the dome (qubbah)." Quite obviously, "the dome" refers to the Dome of the Rock (Qubbat al-Sahkrah), the magnificent Islamic structure said by Muslims to surmount the primeval rock.
Onceinawhile (talk) 09:05, 31 May 2022 (UTC)- Honestly, you could even argue that there are three layers of meaning here: the prayer hall, the mosque compound at large, and the broader space. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:08, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Onceinawhile, I am not convinced of the distinctions you are making. It seems to me that the name of the mosque is applied to the area by synechdoche. A search of masjid al-aqsa in GScholar reveals plenty of results that can only refer to the building. Srnec (talk) 13:47, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Hi @Srnec: thanks for engaging here. The synechdoche is the other way round - the name of the mosque (the compound) is applied to the building by synechdoche. This is stated and explained by Mujir ad-Din, Robinson, Palmer, Le Strange etc.[1][2][3][4]
- As for GScholar "al aqsa mosque" search, I went through the first ten and counted six about the compound, three about the building (one on its dome and two on its beams) and a third about a separate building altogether (the library). That is at least 60% about the compound. GScholar for "masjid al-aqsa" gives 8 out of the first 10 for the compound. To hit our PTOPIC "highly likely" guidance, we would need to be down at about 25% : 75% (compound : building). Onceinawhile (talk) 13:58, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Onceinawhile, I am not convinced of the distinctions you are making. It seems to me that the name of the mosque is applied to the area by synechdoche. A search of masjid al-aqsa in GScholar reveals plenty of results that can only refer to the building. Srnec (talk) 13:47, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Honestly, you could even argue that there are three layers of meaning here: the prayer hall, the mosque compound at large, and the broader space. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:08, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- From the Encyclopedia of Islam source above, "The most common use of the words is for the large building located on the south side of the Haram platform and, next to the Dome of the Rock" Drsmoo (talk) 12:31, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose. As indicated by the above source (and many others), the term "Al-Aqsa Mosque" commonly refers to the mosque itself, rather than the entire Temple Mount: The most common use of the words is for the large building located on the south side of the Haram platform and, next in the Dome of the Rock, the most celebrated Islamic building in Jerusalem. This usage of the term is well noted as the dominant one in academic research. Tombah (talk) 06:19, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Selectively cherrypicking of sources is not the correct way of considering anything. You have at this point been shown plenty of sources on this talk and others by multiple editors showing you an entirely different picture. As well you know, your 'one source (and many others)' is only one side of the story, and you cannot consider one without the other. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:06, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Support: Given that the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for Al-Aqsa Mosque is ambiguous, as the recent news coverage has made abundantly clear, and many readers could be potentially wanting to know about the wider compound, not specifically the Qibli Mosque, I believe some title-level disambiguation is appropriate. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:51, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose. The mosque itself is what is usually understood, certainly in English-language sources. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:52, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Comment There are definitely issues around mosque, compound, the naming and whatnot, that need sorting out. I am not certain that this piecemeal approach to the problem is the best way of dealing with that. My sense is that the root of the problem is that there is an article called Temple Mount referring to the compound and no such article for the "other side" which I would class as a NPOV problem in addition. Selfstudier (talk) 13:28, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- If the article is moved, what will happen to the Temple Mount? Do you want to move that article too, to "al-Aqsa" (more common in English)? Khestwol (talk) 09:55, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Khestwol: no. Personally I am a fan the alternatives described at Temple Mount#Jerusalem's sacred esplanade. Our policy WP:NPOVTITLE does not account for a situation where there are multiple non-neutral common names. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:41, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Temple Mount is the only common name in English. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=har+habayit%2Cmasjid+al-aqsa%2Charam+al-sharif%2Csacred+esplanade%2Ctemple+mount%2Cnoble+sanctuary%2Cal-aqsa+mosque%2Cmount+moriah&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&case_insensitive=on&corpus=26&smoothing=0& Drsmoo (talk) 12:31, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, this Ngram result is incorrect, because Ngram always automatically inserts spaces around the hyphens which makes the results incorrect when the names include hyphens. However, "al-Aqsa" is more common according to Google search, where "al-Aqsa" + Jerusalem is getting 4.7 million results but "Temple Mount" + Jerusalem is getting 3.8 million results. Furthermore on Google News, "al-Aqsa" + Jerusalem gets 126,000 results but "Temple Mount" + Jerusalem get 72,700 results. Khestwol (talk) 13:18, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- That is wrong, the n-gram processes hyphens normally, it parses the search to add spaces between the hyphens, as that is the ngram syntax for hyphens (otherwise, the dash is a minus), the books are then searched normally (without the spaces around the hyphens). https://books.google.com/ngrams/info Google results are not a reliable source on Wikipedia, and even then, Temple Mount gets significantly more results than any other alternate name. Drsmoo (talk) 13:57, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- This is the correct ngram [3] It shows Aqsa or Aksa ahead of Temple Mount. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:05, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- LOL, no. That includes all uses, including as a personal name, etc. And even then, Temple Mount is ahead. Drsmoo (talk) 15:06, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, just like there's all sorts of other stuff that gets swept up in a "temple mount" google search - things like a movie, mentions of "temple, mount" with a comma in the middle, etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:40, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- If you actually go through the google results, when you get to page 11, you'll see that there are actually only 104 unique results of your search. That's why google results (and ngrams) aren't reliable on Wikipedia. Drsmoo (talk) 17:16, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Which was exactly me point here - the sum of it all is nevertheless an indicator that very little can be taken for granted. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:27, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- If you actually go through the google results, when you get to page 11, you'll see that there are actually only 104 unique results of your search. That's why google results (and ngrams) aren't reliable on Wikipedia. Drsmoo (talk) 17:16, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, just like there's all sorts of other stuff that gets swept up in a "temple mount" google search - things like a movie, mentions of "temple, mount" with a comma in the middle, etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:40, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- LOL, no. That includes all uses, including as a personal name, etc. And even then, Temple Mount is ahead. Drsmoo (talk) 15:06, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Umm, Ngrams isn't a reliable source either. All of these things are purely indicative. It is only source quality and usage that truly matters. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:34, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- This is the correct ngram [3] It shows Aqsa or Aksa ahead of Temple Mount. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:05, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- That is wrong, the n-gram processes hyphens normally, it parses the search to add spaces between the hyphens, as that is the ngram syntax for hyphens (otherwise, the dash is a minus), the books are then searched normally (without the spaces around the hyphens). https://books.google.com/ngrams/info Google results are not a reliable source on Wikipedia, and even then, Temple Mount gets significantly more results than any other alternate name. Drsmoo (talk) 13:57, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Temple Mount is the only common name in English, ok come on now, you know that is not true. You know it is called, commonly, al-Aqsa, al-Aqsa Mosque, al-Aqsa mosque compound, Sacred Esplanade, Holy Esplanade. That has been demonstrated over and over again. nableezy - 13:53, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Not compared to Temple Mount, see ngram above. There are also reliable sources that explicitly state the common English term is Temple Mount. Drsmoo (talk) 13:57, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- You might have a point if somebody said that the most common English name but they did not. You said it is the only common English name, and you know that to be false and misleading. I dont know why you are taking these maximalist positions when they are the easiest to show to be completely made up. nableezy - 14:06, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- I guess it depends on your definition of "common". "Sacred Esplanade" is less common than academic terms like "Southern Levant" Drsmoo (talk) 15:19, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- I actually wouldn't be so hasty to write off esplanade: the term actually has some academic pedigree, see Jerusalem+esplanade Iskandar323 (talk) 16:47, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- "Esplanade" is not a name for the Temple Mount. You are searching for esplanade as a noun. Drsmoo (talk) 17:16, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- But there is only one esplanade of any notability in Jerusalem, just like there is only one 'temple mount'. Name another. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:23, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- "Esplanade" is not a name for the Temple Mount. You are searching for esplanade as a noun. Drsmoo (talk) 17:16, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- I actually wouldn't be so hasty to write off esplanade: the term actually has some academic pedigree, see Jerusalem+esplanade Iskandar323 (talk) 16:47, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- I guess it depends on your definition of "common". "Sacred Esplanade" is less common than academic terms like "Southern Levant" Drsmoo (talk) 15:19, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- You might have a point if somebody said that the most common English name but they did not. You said it is the only common English name, and you know that to be false and misleading. I dont know why you are taking these maximalist positions when they are the easiest to show to be completely made up. nableezy - 14:06, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Not compared to Temple Mount, see ngram above. There are also reliable sources that explicitly state the common English term is Temple Mount. Drsmoo (talk) 13:57, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, this Ngram result is incorrect, because Ngram always automatically inserts spaces around the hyphens which makes the results incorrect when the names include hyphens. However, "al-Aqsa" is more common according to Google search, where "al-Aqsa" + Jerusalem is getting 4.7 million results but "Temple Mount" + Jerusalem is getting 3.8 million results. Furthermore on Google News, "al-Aqsa" + Jerusalem gets 126,000 results but "Temple Mount" + Jerusalem get 72,700 results. Khestwol (talk) 13:18, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Temple Mount is the only common name in English. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=har+habayit%2Cmasjid+al-aqsa%2Charam+al-sharif%2Csacred+esplanade%2Ctemple+mount%2Cnoble+sanctuary%2Cal-aqsa+mosque%2Cmount+moriah&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&case_insensitive=on&corpus=26&smoothing=0& Drsmoo (talk) 12:31, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Khestwol: no. Personally I am a fan the alternatives described at Temple Mount#Jerusalem's sacred esplanade. Our policy WP:NPOVTITLE does not account for a situation where there are multiple non-neutral common names. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:41, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support Al-Aqsa Mosque (congregational) (don't need mosque twice) in order to make progress on the issues,
the term "Al-Aqsa Mosque" commonly refers to the mosque itself
simply is not the case (if even the BBC understands this, you can be sure of it).[5]
Selfstudier (talk) 15:06, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose as in normal English Al aqsa mosque refers to the mosque itself and not to the entire Temple Mount. It is possible to say Al Aqsa Compund to refer to the Temple Mount, but if you say mosque then it is almost always the mosque itself. --Seggallion (talk) 17:44, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose clearly per WP:COMMONNAME in English. Also per WP:CONCISE. Khestwol (talk) 18:00, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- For the record, this is not about the common name, which is not in dispute. This is about disambiguation, given the dual meaning of said common name. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:48, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- Comment Here is the thoroughly reliable Jewish Chronicle complaining about the BBC "April 2022 saw another development: a BBC report about rioting on Temple Mount informed readers that "the compound is known to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif (Noble Sanctuary) and is also considered, in its entirety, as al-Aqsa Mosque."" which the JC considers to be "Hamas-inspired terminology". The BBC didn't and apparently still doesn't agree.Selfstudier (talk) 22:45, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Hmm, I HAD thought the Jewish Chronicle wasn't too bad a source, but I didn't know it pushed out this kind of crap (the tired Hamas refrain) in its opinion. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:57, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- What is even more surprising is that the Jerusalem Post, arguably even more anti-Palestinian in approach, is quite happy to use the term to describe the whole area: "Over 300,000 Muslims attend Ramadan overnight prayers at Al-Aksa Mosque". The Jerusalem Post. 2017-06-22. For reference, the capacity of the building which our Al Aqsa Mosque article relates to is just 5,000. This JPost article is a good example of the frequent ambiguous use of the term by authors who haven’t fully thought about whether they mean the building or the whole plaza. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:05, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Onceinawhile: Interestingly, what it also does is, by saying
"al-Aksa Mosque on the Temple Mount"
, is semantically treat the mosque as the religious site and the mount as the topographical feature, which is of course logical, and I have been thinking is really the correct approach, but the distinction is only rarely actually expressed in this way. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:32, 1 June 2022 (UTC)- The hill is the putative Mount Moriah (a redirect to Temple Mount). Selfstudier (talk) 18:47, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- But those are one and the same in the sense that Mount Moriah is the designation for where Solomon's temple was supposedly constructed. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:15, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- The hill is the putative Mount Moriah (a redirect to Temple Mount). Selfstudier (talk) 18:47, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Onceinawhile: Interestingly, what it also does is, by saying
- What is even more surprising is that the Jerusalem Post, arguably even more anti-Palestinian in approach, is quite happy to use the term to describe the whole area: "Over 300,000 Muslims attend Ramadan overnight prayers at Al-Aksa Mosque". The Jerusalem Post. 2017-06-22. For reference, the capacity of the building which our Al Aqsa Mosque article relates to is just 5,000. This JPost article is a good example of the frequent ambiguous use of the term by authors who haven’t fully thought about whether they mean the building or the whole plaza. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:05, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Hmm, I HAD thought the Jewish Chronicle wasn't too bad a source, but I didn't know it pushed out this kind of crap (the tired Hamas refrain) in its opinion. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:57, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Number 57 11:50, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- Ditto, again, this is not about the common name, which is not in dispute. This is about disambiguation, given the dual meaning of said common name. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:48, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- Request for RM to remain open pending more fulsome discussion, since none of five oppose comments have met the requirements of WP:RMCOMMENT. Each of @Tombah, Necrothesp, and Seggallion: have claimed that references in scholarly literature to Al Aqsa Mosque are "dominant" / "usually understood" / "almost always" relating to the main building rather than the wider mosque, but did not provide evidence, and did not comment on the counterclaim that 60% of the first ten GoogleScholar uses relate to the compound. Each of @Khestwol and Number 57: referred to a policy (commonname) which is unrelated to a discussion about disambiguation when the common name is not being changed (e.g. Orange (colour) and Orange (fruit)). Additional time will hopefully allow more editors to engage with the sources. Onceinawhile (talk) 16:18, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think any of your arguments is good enough. Even Selfstudier's claim about BBC above seems untrue. Khestwol (talk) 18:00, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- Really? Which part? What I said or what the BBC said. Do be specific.Selfstudier (talk) 18:56, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think any of your arguments is good enough. Even Selfstudier's claim about BBC above seems untrue. Khestwol (talk) 18:00, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
Background to the discussion for new editors (see images, right) Our "Al-Aqsa Mosque" article describes the small southern building. The large compound, also known as "Al-Aqsa Mosque", is described at our article Temple Mount. Scholarly literature using the term "Al-Aqsa Mosque" usually relates to one of these three main topics:
- Quran / Islam as a whole (the term Al Aqsa Mosque in literature on these topics almost always relates to the whole Temple Mount compound):
- Al Aqsa Mosque as the third holiest site in Islam
- Al Aqsa Mosque as the first qibla in Islam
- Palestinian-Israeli politics (the term Al Aqsa Mosque in literature on these topics almost always relates to the whole Temple Mount compound):
- Al Aqsa Mosque as an identity symbol for Palestinians, giving its name to the Al Aqsa Intifada, and the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades
- Al Aqsa Mosque in the news after clashes between Israeli soldiers and Palestinians: the location of the recent clashes shown here
- Architecture or more practical / focused description (the term Al Aqsa Mosque in literature on these topics is weighted towards the small building, with the compound being given one of its alternate names, often pointing out that the name relates to the compound as well)
- Al Aqsa Mosque (Temple Mount compound) as a large mosque holding over 300,000 people (note: the small building can hold only 5,000)
- Al Aqsa Mosque (small building) as an important monument of early Islamic architecture
- Al Aqsa Mosque (small building) housing the Imam of the Al Aqsa Mosque
- Al Aqsa Mosque (small building) being where the Islamic prayers are led from
Onceinawhile (talk) 16:43, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- However, the WP:hatnote at the top of this article serves our disambiguation function very efficiently. It can easily redirect our readers, for example if they are an Arabic-speaking Muslim, toward the Temple Mount if that is what they wanted to read about. Khestwol (talk) 21:07, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose. Per WP:COMMONNAME. Per Srnec and Khestwol, the hatnotes are sufficient. Vpab15 (talk) 22:15, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
- The common name is not in dispute. This is about disambiguation, given the dual meaning of the common name. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:49, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support, because it is widely known that "Al-Aqsa Mosque is the third holiest site in Islam" (because Mohammed supposedly rose to the heavens from there) and, as has been pointed out by many before me, it obviously doesn't refer to the black-domed structure that was built decades after Mohammed's death, but to the entire area, known to Muslims in its entirety as the Al-Aqsa Mosque. Dan Palraz (talk) 17:40, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support - I dont actually understand the opposition here. Its almost as if one wishes that al-Aqsa Mosque did not refer to the entire compound, but per the sources offered above it clearly does. If we are to have an article on the mosque specifically, and we should, the title should be about the mosque specifically and not the entire compound. nableezy - 18:07, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
- The opposition is to using a long title where a short one will do. The article on the compound is Temple Mount. It has an Arabic name, Haram al-Sharif. I still maintain that modern English usage of "al-Aqsa Mosque" to refer to the entire area is synechdoche from the Friday mosque and not a reflection of either (a) the wider meaning of Arabic masjid or (b) early Islamic history, before the construction of a dedicated building. I base this on the fact that al-Aqsa mosque is habitually distinguished from the Dome of the Rock in English. Also, constructions like "al-Aqsa mosque compound" suggest that the "al-Aqsa mosque" proper is a part of the compound (as here). In other words, our current setup with hatnotes is fine. Srnec (talk) 03:24, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Srnec: you write
I still maintain that modern English usage of "al-Aqsa Mosque" to refer to the entire area is synechdoche from the Friday mosque
. Can you explain what you mean? I think there is an important nuance you are trying to communicate by writing "modern English usage" that I don't understand. Perhaps you could help me understand in the context of the following established facts (which I don't believe you are disputing): (1) the name Masjid Al Aqsa derives from the Quran and at that point referred to the whole Temple Mount; (2) the name Masjid Al Aqsa was the primary Arabic name for the Temple Mount compound for more than 1,000 years until the Ottoman times when the term Haram Al Sharif began to gain currency; (3) the English term "Mosque" is a direct transliteration of Masjid. - And just to make sure we are not talking past each other, I believe "route 2" is what you are advocating, whereas "route 1" was stated by English-speaking scholars such as Guy Le Strange and Edward Henry Palmer in the 19th century:
- Route 1: Quran[compound]->Masjid Al-Aqsa[compound]->Al Aqsa Mosque[compound]
- Route 2: Quran[compound]->Masjid Al-Aqsa[compound]->Jamia Al-Aqsa[building]->Al Aqsa Mosque[building]->Al Aqsa Mosque[compound]
- Onceinawhile (talk) 08:31, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Srnec: you write
- Comment (1) At which point? The actual location of the Quranic Al-Aqsa Mosque has been debated among scholars since the earliest days of Islam. Muhammad never visited Jerusalem. His biographer Al-Waqidi wrote a century later that Muhammad frequented an Al-Aqsa Mosque in a village near Mecca, while other scholars believe that the Quranic Al-Aqsa Mosque is a spiritual destination, rather than a geographical location. The connection with the Temple Mount in Jerusalem is probably of a later Umayyad origin. (2) There was no primary name for the Temple Mount before the Ottoman period. In fact, two other names were very popular: Bayt al-Maqdis, and Al-Jabal. And let me add a (4), according to some scholars, the term "Al-Aqsa Mosque" as to refer to the entire mount has regained currency starting in the 1990s, when it assumed a symbolic national significance for Palestinians. Tombah (talk) 08:51, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- These WP:FRINGE claims that Al Aqsa Mosque is not in Jerusalem have no place in this discussion. In a similar vein, per my comment at Talk:Al-Juʽranah your edits there need proper contextualization. Onceinawhile (talk) 09:33, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- I never said there is no Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. But claiming that the Quran originally referred to Jerusalem is indeed problematic. Islamic scholars debated the meaning behind Quranic Al-Aqsa since the earliest days of Islam. Tombah (talk) 09:55, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Re your statement
"...claiming that the Quran originally referred to Jerusalem is indeed problematic"
, please read Wikipedia:Fringe theories - your statement "departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views". Plus it has nothing to do with the discussion in this thread, so I will not respond further. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:36, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Re your statement
- I never said there is no Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. But claiming that the Quran originally referred to Jerusalem is indeed problematic. Islamic scholars debated the meaning behind Quranic Al-Aqsa since the earliest days of Islam. Tombah (talk) 09:55, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- These WP:FRINGE claims that Al Aqsa Mosque is not in Jerusalem have no place in this discussion. In a similar vein, per my comment at Talk:Al-Juʽranah your edits there need proper contextualization. Onceinawhile (talk) 09:33, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- In any case, as I said many times before - the usage of "Al-Aqsa Mosque" for the entire Temple Mount - regardless of how common it is in Arabic-speaking media and sources - is not common in English. When the term Al-Aqsa is used in English for the entire site, its usually part of "Al-Aqsa Mosque Compound" or simply "Al-Aqsa". Most sources do not use the term "Al-Aqsa Mosque" for the entire mount, as it most usually refers to the silver-domed mosque only. Tombah (talk) 08:51, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- There really should be a moratorium on the word 'most' when not accompanied by any actual sources or usage analysis. Provide some sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:01, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- The opposition is to using a long title where a short one will do. The article on the compound is Temple Mount. It has an Arabic name, Haram al-Sharif. I still maintain that modern English usage of "al-Aqsa Mosque" to refer to the entire area is synechdoche from the Friday mosque and not a reflection of either (a) the wider meaning of Arabic masjid or (b) early Islamic history, before the construction of a dedicated building. I base this on the fact that al-Aqsa mosque is habitually distinguished from the Dome of the Rock in English. Also, constructions like "al-Aqsa mosque compound" suggest that the "al-Aqsa mosque" proper is a part of the compound (as here). In other words, our current setup with hatnotes is fine. Srnec (talk) 03:24, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Relister comment So far, the supporters managed to demonstrate that ambiguity does exist for the term "Al-Aqsa Mosque" with evidence. Meanwhile, the opponents keep citing "COMMONNAME" (which I don't find relevant as the supporters are not trying to move to anything other than "Al-Aqsa Mosque" + disambiguator) and stating that the mosque itself is the primary topic of the term (citing one published statement, but without verifying the primary topic status with an actual usage examination). Some further data analysis may be helpful. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 18:05, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose Common usage is for the name to refer to the mosque specifically, though sometimes "compound" is appended to refer to a wider area. Haram al-Sharif is the common name for the wider area in Arabic.
- “The Aqsa Mosque is one of the holiest structures in the Islamic faith. The mosque sits inside a 35-acre site known by Muslims as Haram al-Sharif, or the Noble Sanctuary, and by Jews as the Temple Mount.” https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/10/world/middleeast/aqsa-mosque-jerusalem.html
- "Aqṣā, al - The third holiest mosque in Islam, al-Aqṣā is part of the sacred site in Jerusalem (along with the Dome of the Rock 492 feet, or 150 meters, to its north) referred to in Arabic as al-Ḥaram al-Sharīf (The Noble Sanctuary) and in Hebrew as Har ha-Bayit (The Temple Mount)." http://oxfordislamicstudies.com/print/opr/t236/e1011
- "Haram al-Sharif - The Noble Enclosure. Muslim sacred precinct on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem and the site of two Islamic holy places, the al-Aqsa mosque and the Qubbat al-Sakhra (Dome of the Rock)." http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/print/opr/t125/e809
- References already provided on this talk page have describes "al-Aqsa Compound" as a colloquial phrase: "The site is known in Arabic as Haram al-Sharif – the Noble Sanctuary – and colloquially as the Haram or the al-Aqsa compound;" https://books.google.com/books?id=YrztCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA243
- References in the lead paragraph of the article state that usage of Haram al-Sharif "superseded" usage of a wider context for al-Aqsa during Ottoman rule ""Al-Masjid al-Aqsa" was the standard designation for the whole sanctuary until the Ottoman period, when it was superseded by "al-Haram al-Sharif”;" https://web.archive.org/web/20170111130058/https://books.google.com/books?id=FG6ZlkRjD2IC&pg=PA71
- Encyclopaedia of the Qurʾān Aqṣā Mosque - “An early mosque located in Jerusalem on what is called in Islam “The Noble Sanctuary (al-Ḥaram al-Sharīf)”[[4]]
- Encyclopaedia of Islam “Al-Aqṣā mosque (al-masjid al-Aqṣā) refers specifically to the large mosque on the southwestern corner of al-Ḥaram al-Sharīf in Jerusalem, but the name is also used for the entire religious compound, including the Dome of the Rock.” [[5]]
- Consensus will determine how to navigate between “refers specifically” and “is also used”.
- Drsmoo (talk) 04:10, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Per my comment below at 07:15, 19 June 2022, the quoted excerpts from the last two bullets above (Encyclopaedia of the Qurʾān and Encyclopaedia of Islam, both added to this list at 02:21, 19 June 2022) provide a partial picture. A full reading of these encyclopedia articles, just like the Britannica article on Al Aqsa Mosque, support disambiguation. Onceinawhile (talk) 07:41, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose. The ambiguity is very small to nonexistent, present in a small minority of biased claims. This is Al Jazeera's explanation: "Al-Aqsa is the name of the silver-domed mosque inside a 35-acre compound referred to as al-Haram al-Sharif, or the Noble Sanctuary, by Muslims, and as the Temple Mount by Jews.". Most sources that use mosque refer to the silver domed mosque, the wider area is referred to by other names. --StellarNerd (talk) 04:04, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- An ambiguity either exists or it doesn't, and if it does, it needs disambiguation. Where do 'a small minority of biased claims' and 'most sources' come from? Iskandar323 (talk) 04:19, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- @StellarNerd: This Al Jazeera video tour of Al Aqsa Mosque with 13 million views (see index page here) calls the southern building the Qibli Mosque and says it is also known as the Al Aqsa Mosque, "although that title more accurately describes the entire compound". They then provide a little diagram to make it clear. Start from 4:40 to see it. Using the term "Qibli" for the southern building (the topic of this article) and "Al Aqsa" for the compound is Al Jazeera's standard way of disambiguating here (see e.g. [6]). Onceinawhile (talk) 08:07, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- An ambiguity either exists or it doesn't, and if it does, it needs disambiguation. Where do 'a small minority of biased claims' and 'most sources' come from? Iskandar323 (talk) 04:19, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- A plea for a focus on our policies: Per the above "Relister comment" two days ago, the outcome of this discussion should be based upon our WP:DAB policy, specifically WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. That is the only thing we should be discussing. Yet not a single one of the oppose voters has directly addressed this policy, or attempted to prove that the current topic at this title
"is highly likely — much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined — to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term.
Support voters have provided evidence for ambiguity, bringing all five of the scholarly references below as well as providing Gscholar/Gbooks usage examinations, whereas the oppose votes have brought individual use examples but no attempts to evidence relative frequency and the "highly likely" test. That is presumably because counting the frequency of different use examples of homographs can only be done manually.
- Another interesting point from the same policy is WP:NCDAB, which says:
When there is another term (such as Apartment instead of Flat) or more complete name (such as English language instead of English) that is unambiguous, commonly used in English (even without being the most common term), and equally clear, that term is typically the best to use.
So for those averse to a long title, this "even without being the most common term" would allow us to follow the outcome of a similar discussion at Commons:Special:Permalink/510293901#Al-Aqsa Mosque ambiguity from two years ago. - Onceinawhile (talk) 16:31, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- That is incorrect, and the above is simply WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, multiple reliable sources, including NYTimes and the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies, show the primary topic for this name is the mosque specifically, that al-Aqsa compound is a colloquial phrase, and that Haram al-Sharif superseded usage of Al-Aqsa Mosque for the entire space in Ottoman times. Which is confirmed by multiple references included below as well, which also attest to the fact that the space is "usually supposed"/"many people believe" to be the mosque building alone. It's also worth noting that the Commons:Village Pump response correctly observes that the common English term for the whole area is "Temple Mount". Is it your intention to "follow the outcome" of that discussion, which suggested "Temple Mount and Al-Qibli Chapel"? Because that is not what was proposed in the move discussion.Drsmoo (talk) 17:08, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- No. Cherrypicked use example sources do not have any bearing on the "highly likely" primary topic requirement in our policy. As I wrote above, I ran a GScholar "al aqsa mosque" search:
I went through the first ten and counted six about the compound, three about the building (one on its dome and two on its beams) and a third about a separate building altogether (the library). That is at least 60% about the compound.
. This type of analysis is the way to assess the "highly likely" test required under WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:17, 15 June 2022 (UTC) - Ah, so the New York Times and Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies, and Encyclopaedia of Islam, are "cherry-picked", as opposed to the sources you prefer, of course (even though many of the sources you added also attest to the fact that commonly the phrase is assigned the mosque building specifically). Drsmoo (talk) 17:57, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- It is irrelevant. That there are source saying two different things means that there is ambiguity in the meaning. Hence it requires disambiguation. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:26, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- So then create a link at the top of the article that says "For Haram al-Sharif or the al-Aqsa Mosque Compound" and directs to Temple Mount. Drsmoo (talk) 18:36, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- That would only be the correct approach if the Al-Aqsa building was the clear primary topic for Al-Aqsa Mosque, which no one has shown it is. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:40, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- So then create a link at the top of the article that says "For Haram al-Sharif or the al-Aqsa Mosque Compound" and directs to Temple Mount. Drsmoo (talk) 18:36, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- It is irrelevant. That there are source saying two different things means that there is ambiguity in the meaning. Hence it requires disambiguation. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:26, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- No. Cherrypicked use example sources do not have any bearing on the "highly likely" primary topic requirement in our policy. As I wrote above, I ran a GScholar "al aqsa mosque" search:
- That is incorrect, and the above is simply WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, multiple reliable sources, including NYTimes and the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies, show the primary topic for this name is the mosque specifically, that al-Aqsa compound is a colloquial phrase, and that Haram al-Sharif superseded usage of Al-Aqsa Mosque for the entire space in Ottoman times. Which is confirmed by multiple references included below as well, which also attest to the fact that the space is "usually supposed"/"many people believe" to be the mosque building alone. It's also worth noting that the Commons:Village Pump response correctly observes that the common English term for the whole area is "Temple Mount". Is it your intention to "follow the outcome" of that discussion, which suggested "Temple Mount and Al-Qibli Chapel"? Because that is not what was proposed in the move discussion.Drsmoo (talk) 17:08, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Is it not likely that a significant number of readers searching for "Al Aqsa Mosque" could be Muslim? We have multiple sources stating that "Al Aqsa Mosque" is the Muslim name for the compound (not the prayer hall building which is the subject of this article). The table below shows that there are approximately 300 million English-speaking Muslims in the world. In other words, Muslims represent one-quarter of all English speakers in the world. The topic of the mosque compound is very important to all Muslims... Onceinawhile (talk) 19:14, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
Table of the world's c.300 million English-speaking Muslims | |||
---|---|---|---|
Country | Total English speakers (from List of countries by English-speaking population) | Muslim population (from Islam by country) | English speaking Muslims |
% | |||
United States | 96% | 3,450,000 | 3,294,750 |
Nigeria | 86% | 99000000 | 85,555,800 |
India | 11% | 200,000,000 | 21,240,000 |
Philippines | 58% | 8725000 | 5,077,950 |
United Kingdom | 98% | 4,130,000 | 4,059,790 |
Germany | 56% | 5450000 | 3,052,000 |
Uganda | 90% | 5,435,234 | 4,886,275 |
Canada | 83% | 1,148,213 | 953,706 |
Egypt | 35% | 87500000 | 30,625,000 |
France | 39% | 5,720,000 | 2,230,800 |
Australia | 93% | 666,000 | 618,048 |
Bangladesh | 12% | 153,700,000 | 18,444,000 |
Pakistan | 9% | 212,300,000 | 19,319,300 |
Japan | 15% | 185,000 | 27,750 |
Ghana | 67% | 6,442,205 | 4,295,018 |
Russia | 12% | 18000000 | 2,133,000 |
Thailand | 27% | 3,640,000 | 988,624 |
Italy | 34% | 2,987,840 | 1,015,866 |
South Africa | 31% | 1,050,000 | 325,500 |
Mexico | 13% | 5,500 | 710 |
Malaysia | 63% | 20,063,500 | 12,553,732 |
Netherlands | 91% | 887,000 | 806,283 |
Poland | 37% | 6,796 | 2,515 |
Sri Lanka | 62% | 2,105,000 | 1,305,100 |
Turkey | 17% | 74,423,725 | 12,652,033 |
Zimbabwe | 82% | 100,000 | 82,070 |
Iraq | 35% | 38,465,864 | 13,463,052 |
Brazil | 5% | 767583.5 | 38,379 |
Spain | 22% | 1,180,000 | 259,600 |
China | 1% | 28127500 | 253,148 |
Sweden | 89% | 800,000 | 712,000 |
Kenya | 19% | 5,500,000 | 1,035,650 |
Cameroon | 38% | 7,692,289 | 2,923,070 |
Ukraine | 18% | 695000 | 125,100 |
Belgium | 60% | 879,377 | 527,626 |
Israel | 85% | 1,516,482 | 1,288,555 |
Austria | 73% | 720,000 | 525,600 |
Romania | 31% | 136500 | 42,315 |
Greece | 51% | 414318 | 211,302 |
Sierra Leone | 84% | 6,067,706 | 5,068,355 |
Denmark | 86% | 313,713 | 269,793 |
Switzerland | 61% | 100,000 | 61,280 |
Morocco | 14% | 37,930,989 | 5,310,338 |
Norway | 90% | 175,507 | 157,956 |
Republic of Ireland | 98% | 1,566,786 | 1,541,247 |
Singapore | 83% | 915,118 | 760,463 |
New Zealand | 98% | 41,000 | 40,106 |
Madagascar | 18% | 2,568,361 | 462,305 |
Tanzania | 10% | 19,426,814 | 1,921,312 |
Finland | 75% | 102,000 | 76,500 |
Cambodia | 22% | 311,044 | 69,052 |
Papua New Guinea | 50% | 2,000 | 995 |
Hong Kong | 46% | 295,746 | 136,250 |
Portugal | 27% | 65,000 | 17,550 |
Liberia | 83% | 961,953 | 795,247 |
Jordan | 45% | 10,165,577 | 4,574,510 |
Czechia | 27% | 15000 | 4,050 |
Argentina | 7% | 400,000 | 26,080 |
Jamaica | 98% | 5,624 | 5,491 |
Croatia | 60% | 64,057 | 38,434 |
Algeria | 7% | 41,240,913 | 2,886,864 |
Myanmar | 4% | 5,837,839 | 259,784 |
Yemen | 9% | 27,784,498 | 2,500,605 |
Colombia | 4% | 96,337 | 4,065 |
Hungary | 20% | 50000 | 10,000 |
Puerto Rico | 49% | 1,000 | 486 |
Zambia | 16% | 168,877 | 27,054 |
Bulgaria | 25% | 861,015 | 215,254 |
Kazakhstan | 15% | 13,158,672 | 2,026,435 |
Lebanon | 40% | 3,567,211 | 1,426,884 |
Chile | 10% | 4,000 | 381 |
Rwanda | 15% | 576,054 | 86,408 |
Slovakia | 26% | 10,866 | 2,825 |
Slovenia | 59% | 73,568 | 43,405 |
Trinidad and Tobago | 88% | 78,000 | 68,437 |
Lithuania | 38% | 3,000 | 1,140 |
Latvia | 46% | 2,000 | 920 |
Nepal | 3% | 1,292,909 | 38,787 |
Subtotal | 287,888,067 | ||
Total English speakers | 1,179,874,130 | ||
Percent of subtotal English-speaking Muslims / all English speakers | 24.4% |
- "We have multiple sources stating that "Al Aqsa Mosque" is the Muslim name for the compound" - That is not correct, at least not in the sources provided, none of which state that the term is "the Muslim name for the compound", though some state that the term applying to a wider area is a colloquialism/superseded by Haram al-Sharif. However, there are many sources which do in fact state that Muslims refer to the site as Haram al-Sharif, and that the site is commonly referred to in English as the Temple Mount. I'm not sure why the Village Pump discussion was linked to, but the move request doesn't conform to it? Just have a redirect to Temple Mount, which is the common english term. This article is also certified good, was that designation wrong? Or did something change since then? Drsmoo (talk) 19:43, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Some examples below:
- Cohen, Hillel (2017). "The Temple Mount/al-Aqsa in Zionist and Palestinian National Consciousness: A Comparative View". Israel Studies Review. 32 (1). Berghahn Books: 1, 8–9, 17. ISSN 21590389 21590370, 21590389. JSTOR 45238302.
The holy site known to Jews as the Temple Mount and to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif or al-Aqsa is central to both the Jewish and Palestinian Arab national movements…
{{cite journal}}
: Check|issn=
value (help) - "Jerusalem: Over 150 hurt in clashes at al-Aqsa Mosque compound". BBC News. 2022-04-15.
The compound is known to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif (Noble Sanctuary) and is also considered, in its entirety, as al-Aqsa Mosque.
- Reiter, Y.; Dimant, D. (2020). Islam, Jews and the Temple Mount: The Rock of Our/Their Existence. Routledge Studies in Middle Eastern Politics. Taylor & Francis. ISBN 978-1-000-06679-1.
Needless to say, Al-Aqsa Mosque is the Muslim name for the entire compound that is known to others as the Temple Mount.
- Cohen, Hillel (2017). "The Temple Mount/al-Aqsa in Zionist and Palestinian National Consciousness: A Comparative View". Israel Studies Review. 32 (1). Berghahn Books: 1, 8–9, 17. ISSN 21590389 21590370, 21590389. JSTOR 45238302.
- Onceinawhile (talk) 19:58, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- All three of those sources call the space Haram al-Sharif, the third is referring directly to the quote immediately above it by Raed Salah, and states that “all others” call it the Temple Mount (and has Temple Mount in the title). Are these cherry picked sources as well? Drsmoo (talk) 20:14, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Exactly. And when you look at the news today, it is "Al Aqsa", "Al Aqsa", "Al Aqsa". Either way, "Al Aqsa Mosque" is understood by Muslims to relate to the whole compound, because anyone familiar with the Quran knows that it couldn't possibly relate to the southern building which was built much later.
- I will admit that my interest in this topic was sparked a number of years ago on a visit to the compound. Being a regular Wikipedia editor in this area I thought I knew what I was talking about and when I got into a conversation - in English - with someone there I asked him to tell me about the Al Aqsa Mosque, pointing to the southern building. You should have seen the reaction. He thought I was completely insane, lectured me for ten minutes, and then on my way out of the compound later repeated the same thing again. As I said, all of this was in English. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:24, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- That is a lovely personal anecdote, perhaps he should tell The New York Times, Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies, Encyclopedia of Islam, etc. Drsmoo (talk) 20:42, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Those sources make no reference to this specific sub-discussion, which is how Muslims use the term "Al Aqsa Mosque". There are multiple reliably sourced quotes above stating clearly in English that Muslims call the compound Al Aqsa Mosque. They match with anecdotal evidence. And as to "what are our readers searching for", which is the ultimate question here, see below some "reader comments" (i.e. comments on the talk page from non-regular editors) from the last few years (there are many more in the archives if helpful):
- 28 May 2021 160.39.58.140: "Within the definition: After the vandalism in El aqtza in 1969, Muslims in Israel refers El eqtza as the whole mountain."
- 22 August 2020 Ahmad Massalha: "I second that the naming is wrong and misinformed. The Aqsa mosque is all of the area which includes the Dome of the Rock, the Qibli Chapel, and other chapels and rooms. This misinformation must be corrected applying Wiki rules and guides."
- 23 January 2020 BosnianWikiS: "Al-Aqsa is not silver but golden-domed mosque."
- 22 August 2018 Mohammed77779: "We should know that Muslims believe that Al-Aqsa consists of The Dome of the rock and Al-Qibli Chapel, so they are two parts of the same thing, every thing inside the siege is considered as a part of Al-Aqsa; which is around 144,000 square meters. what I want to say is that If anyone try to write about this topic, s/he should keep in mind this difference between the two things; because I have observed that pictures of Al-Qibli Chapel are used to refer to the whole place and Al-Qibli Chapel is used as a redirect to Al-Aqsa, which made the topic to be confused."
- Onceinawhile (talk) 20:47, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- "Those sources make no reference to this specific sub-discussion, which is how Muslims use the term "Al Aqsa Mosque"." ...yes, they do. Users can just scroll up and read them. "known by Muslims as Haram al-Sharif"/"referred to in Arabic as al-Ḥaram al-Sharīf", among all the other sources. And scholarly descriptions saying the whole area is referred to in Arabic/by Muslims as Haram al-Sharif are ubiquitous. I'm not sure why you're posting talk-page comments, but ok. Drsmoo (talk) 21:08, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Nonsense argument from silence. The same source (you actually provided only one which specifically comments on Muslim terminology) says it is known to Jews as the Temple Mount; that says nothing about whether Jews also know it as “Har haBayīt (Mount of the House [of God])”, which you yourself claimed just two weeks ago. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:19, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- "Those sources make no reference to this specific sub-discussion, which is how Muslims use the term "Al Aqsa Mosque"." ...yes, they do. Users can just scroll up and read them. "known by Muslims as Haram al-Sharif"/"referred to in Arabic as al-Ḥaram al-Sharīf", among all the other sources. And scholarly descriptions saying the whole area is referred to in Arabic/by Muslims as Haram al-Sharif are ubiquitous. I'm not sure why you're posting talk-page comments, but ok. Drsmoo (talk) 21:08, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Those sources make no reference to this specific sub-discussion, which is how Muslims use the term "Al Aqsa Mosque". There are multiple reliably sourced quotes above stating clearly in English that Muslims call the compound Al Aqsa Mosque. They match with anecdotal evidence. And as to "what are our readers searching for", which is the ultimate question here, see below some "reader comments" (i.e. comments on the talk page from non-regular editors) from the last few years (there are many more in the archives if helpful):
- That is a lovely personal anecdote, perhaps he should tell The New York Times, Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies, Encyclopedia of Islam, etc. Drsmoo (talk) 20:42, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- All three of those sources call the space Haram al-Sharif, the third is referring directly to the quote immediately above it by Raed Salah, and states that “all others” call it the Temple Mount (and has Temple Mount in the title). Are these cherry picked sources as well? Drsmoo (talk) 20:14, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Some examples below:
- And the response was that the relevant detail was not the Hebrew name, but what names were commonly used in English.Drsmoo (talk) 23:11, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- The reader comments are there because policy requires us to assess what are our readers searching for. The fact that we have received so many consistent reader complaints must be taken into account in that assessment. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:26, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Might have been this fellow bending your ear, Once :)
- Dr Yousef: [00:25:55] Al Aqsa mosque, which sometimes is named or called al Haram al Sharif, the Nobel Sanctuary, or the Jerusalem holiest mosque, al Haram al Qudsia Sharif. All of them it means the whole compound, which is located in the south Eastern part of the old city of Jerusalem
- Selfstudier (talk) 22:17, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Throw this source in as well, I can't see it anywhere [6] Selfstudier (talk) 18:16, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Drsmoo: You have been shown plenty of sources that clearly demonstrate 'Al-Aqsa Mosque' has been used on many occasions to refer to the entire site (alongside the name Haram al-Sharif), which is all that anybody needs to show here to justify a move towards disambiguating the title, which is the entire point of this discussion. What exactly are you trying to demonstrate? Iskandar323 (talk) 20:01, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think the best summary can be found in two scholarly encyclopedias. Encyclopaedia of the Qurʾān
- Aqṣā Mosque - “An early mosque located in Jerusalem on what is called in Islam “The Noble Sanctuary (al-Ḥaram al-Sharīf” [[7]]
- and Encyclopaedia of Islam “Al-Aqṣā mosque (al-masjid al-Aqṣā) refers specifically to the large mosque on the southwestern corner of al-Ḥaram al-Sharīf in Jerusalem, but the name is also used for the entire religious compound, including the Dome of the Rock.” [[8]] Consensus will determine how to navigate between “refers specifically” and “is also used”. As for me, I’ve already given my opinion and don’t feel the need to re-state it. Drsmoo (talk) 02:21, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- The EQ article was published by an Islamic Art student - Nola Jeanette Johnson - in 2001, the same year she published her PhD.[9] She doesn't seem to have published any other articles in her entire scholarly career. As described above, when the term is used in the context of Islamic Art or Islamic Architecture, it means the building, so this person would have been expected to use the term in this way. Having said which, her entire first paragraph is about Quranic usage, ending with the words "In the earliest associations of al-masjid al-aqsā with Jerusalem, it is likely that the whole of the Haram was thought to be a place of prayer" - a complicated way of saying that the Quranic usage refers to the compound. The EI article, written by Prof Uri Kupferschmidt, explains the different uses of the term Al-Aqsa [Mosque]: "1. Al-Aqṣā in the Qurʾān, ḥadīth, sīra, and tafsīr", "2. Al-Aqṣā from the twentieth century onwards" and "3. Al-Aqṣā in collective memory and political discourse". This is all consistent with what we know from above:
- If your primary interest is Islamic Art or Architecture, when using the term you will mean the building
- If your primary interest is Quranic usage, when using the term you will mean the compound
- If your primary interest is modern political usage, when using the term you will mean the compound
- So, returning to the policy, PRIMARYTOPIC asks us to judge what which topic "highly likely" - more likely than all the others combined - to be in a reader's mind. Onceinawhile (talk) 07:15, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Just for added emphasis on all the above, here is The Encyclopedia of the Arab-Israeli Conflict: A Political, Social, and Military History [4 volumes]. ABC-CLIO. 2008. p. 70. ISBN 978-1-85109-842-2.
Al-Aqsa Mosque The al-Aqsa Mosque (literally, "farthest mosque") is both a building and a complex of religious buildings in Jerusalem. It is known to Muslims as al-Haram al-Sharif (the Noble Sanctuary) and to Jews and Christians as the Har ha-Bayit or Temple Mount. The whole area of the Noble Sanctuary is considered by Muslims to be the al-Aqsa Mosque, and the entire precinct is inviolable according to Islamic law. It is considered specifically part of the waqf (endowment) land that had included the Western Wall (Wailing Wall), property of an Algerian family, and more generally a waqf of all of Islam. When viewed as a complex of buildings, the al-Aqsa Mosque is dominated and bounded by two major structures: the al-Aqsa Mosque building on the east and the Dome of the Rock (or the Mosque of Omar) on the west. The Dome of the Rock is the oldest holy building in Islam.
- Just for added emphasis on all the above, here is The Encyclopedia of the Arab-Israeli Conflict: A Political, Social, and Military History [4 volumes]. ABC-CLIO. 2008. p. 70. ISBN 978-1-85109-842-2.
- The EQ article was published by an Islamic Art student - Nola Jeanette Johnson - in 2001, the same year she published her PhD.[9] She doesn't seem to have published any other articles in her entire scholarly career. As described above, when the term is used in the context of Islamic Art or Islamic Architecture, it means the building, so this person would have been expected to use the term in this way. Having said which, her entire first paragraph is about Quranic usage, ending with the words "In the earliest associations of al-masjid al-aqsā with Jerusalem, it is likely that the whole of the Haram was thought to be a place of prayer" - a complicated way of saying that the Quranic usage refers to the compound. The EI article, written by Prof Uri Kupferschmidt, explains the different uses of the term Al-Aqsa [Mosque]: "1. Al-Aqṣā in the Qurʾān, ḥadīth, sīra, and tafsīr", "2. Al-Aqṣā from the twentieth century onwards" and "3. Al-Aqṣā in collective memory and political discourse". This is all consistent with what we know from above:
- Comment. This is a case of pars pro toto, where the whole compound is sometimes referred to as just Al-Aqsa Mosque, which strictly speaking refers to just the building in the southern end. The most famous example of this is Holland, which is commonly used to refer to the whole country of the Netherlands, even though it is just one part of it. In this case, we have various unambiguous terms to refer to the whole compound. In my opinion, that makes the case for disambiguation weaker than in the case of Holland, which is also not disambiguated. Vpab15 (talk) 10:26, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Apples and oranges, the Netherlands article says "informally Holland", are you suggesting we write, informally Al-Aqsa mosque at the Temple Mount article? Selfstudier (talk) 10:39, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- At Netherlands#Holland, it says even the Dutch government was using Holland to refer to the whole country, up until 2019. I wouldn't consider that informal use. Vpab15 (talk) 11:02, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I am merely pointing out what the Netherlands article says, it says "The Netherlands...informally Holland" right there in the opening sentence of the lead.Selfstudier (talk) 11:08, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- At Netherlands#Holland, it says even the Dutch government was using Holland to refer to the whole country, up until 2019. I wouldn't consider that informal use. Vpab15 (talk) 11:02, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- No, strictly speaking Al Aqsa Mosque is a fluid term, while everything it can refer to has other names: the compound as Haram al-Sharif; the prayer hall as Qibli Mosque. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:35, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Vpab15: it's the other way round – all of the sources that describe the genesis of the dual-usage (see collapsed reference box below) explain that it is a case of Totum pro parte. Like the way in the 80s and 90s the Twin Towers were always referred to as the World Trade Center, despite that term correctly referring to a wider complex of seven buildings and the spaces in between. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:02, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Apples and oranges, the Netherlands article says "informally Holland", are you suggesting we write, informally Al-Aqsa mosque at the Temple Mount article? Selfstudier (talk) 10:39, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
References
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"... the holy site or esplanade known to Jews and Christians as the Temple Mount"
@Drsmoo: thanks for the additional sources here. I don't object to the addition of the word "Christians", but it needs a caveat, as Hillel Cohen clearly explains that Palestinian Christians also refer to the compound as Al Aqsa: "The holy site known to Jews as the Temple Mount and to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif or al-Aqsa is central to both the Jewish and Palestinian Arab national movements… Al-Aqsa can thus be seen as the central symbol of Palestinian nationalism... One should bear in mind that since the emergence of nationalism in the Arab world, important schools have insisted on separation of religion and state. In addition, a degree of tension exists between al-Aqsa’s two aspects, as a national symbol uniting Palestinian Muslims and Christians, and al-Aqsa as an exclusively Muslim symbol. In other words, the intentions of Palestinians united under the banner of al-Aqsa are not all the same… For the Palestinians, al-Aqsa is a singular focal point of self-respect and religious destiny. This heightens their commitment to the site, without connection to their religious affiliation (Muslim or Christian) or level of religious belief and observance."
Onceinawhile (talk) 07:27, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Not only Palestinian Christians - the Vatican itself, the largest Christian church in the world, refers to it as "the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound": https://www.vaticannews.va/en/world/news/2022-04/jerusalem-clashes-palestinians-israeli-police-settlements-al-aqs.html or simply as "Al-Aqsa mosque": https://www.vaticannews.va/en/world/news/2021-05/wcc-pope-francis-appeal-calm-jerusalem-palestinian-clashes.html Dan Palraz (talk) 08:25, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
None of the above sources make the assertions being claimed at all, let alone “clearly”. Which isn't to say it's not true, just that that source isn't discussing names/terms. As for the Vatican “The view from here is one of the best and most intriguing of the western part of the Holy City, its walls, famous Mosques built on the Temple Mount“ https://www.vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_june-sept-1996_motta_en.html Drsmoo (talk) 14:21, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- That's sort of why it needs disambiguating, lol.Selfstudier (talk) 11:05, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- The Vatican uses the term "Holy Basin" for the Temple Mount and the wider area. In Italian, the site is called Monte del Tempio, which conforms with https://www.google.com/books/edition/Where_Heaven_and_Earth_Meet/CW6U921i4fEC?hl=en&gbpv=0 "In Rabbinic tradition the area is known as "the Temple Mount" (Har ha-bayit; literally: "Mountain of the House"); the same term recurs today in modern European languages." Temple Mount is also, from my own personal research, the term used in Japanese, Korean, and Chinese. Drsmoo (talk) 13:35, 20 June 2022 (UTC)