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*'''Support''' - There's no way those other 2016 Orlando nightclub shootings are the ones readers will be looking for on Wikipedia. The year is completely unnecessary in the title. [[User:HastyBriar321|HastyBriar321]] ([[User talk:HastyBriar321|talk]]) 21:00, 12 November 2017 (UTC) |
*'''Support''' - There's no way those other 2016 Orlando nightclub shootings are the ones readers will be looking for on Wikipedia. The year is completely unnecessary in the title. [[User:HastyBriar321|HastyBriar321]] ([[User talk:HastyBriar321|talk]]) 21:00, 12 November 2017 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' the year is standard format for events, removing it adds nothing to reader experience. Someone might well search 2016 Orlando shootings" without nightclub and the year tells them they've got near the right article, etc. [[User:In ictu oculi|In ictu oculi]] ([[User talk:In ictu oculi|talk]]) 21:26, 12 November 2017 (UTC) |
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No mention of the edited phone transcripts and resulting furor?
Perhaps I'm simply missing it, but I can't find any mention of the original releases of the phone call transcripts which were edited to exclude mentions of Islam. This is surely notable, and was a rather large news story at the time. 78.149.209.252 (talk) 14:22, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
- The FBI released the full transcript of the phone calls, but faced some criticism for initially removing parts where he pledged allegiance to ISIS. When the full transcript was released on Monday June 20, 2016, it had translated into English the the parts where he spoke in Arabic, rendering "Allah" as "God".[1] This didn't please everyone,[2] although the Wikipedia article Basmala quotes it in English as "In the name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful". According to the NBC news story, "FBI Assistant Special Agent in Charge Ron Hopper had said he didn't want to "give credence to to individuals who have done terrorist acts in the past." This isn't quite the same as saying that he removed references to Islam, but some people looked at it that way, and the FBI backtracked after 24 hours and released the full transcript.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 14:57, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
- Would you agree that this should be included in the article? 78.149.209.252 (talk) 15:41, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
- I'm 50:50 on this, as articles generally avoid discussing the media coverage unless it is necessary. The FBI's initial decision to remove parts of the transcript backfired and set off negative media coverage. It was a sort of Streisand effect, but it lasted only from Monday morning to Monday afternoon.[3]--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 15:52, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think the FBI discussion needs to be in the article, nor do I think the whole section titled "Release of transcripts and videos" really needs to be there either. If there is a real desire to include something of the FBI, a short simple sentence along the lines of "The FBI released edited transcripts on DATE; releasing full transcripts XX hours/days later." --Jordan 1972 (talk) 18:14, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Article Title
I think it might be better to have the title be "2016 Pulse nightclub shooting" or something to that effect. It's important to distinguish the club, and subsequently the queer community, as the target. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Schroffb (talk • contribs) 22:35, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
- The current title is the result of a WP:CONSENSUS. Article titles usually contain the name of the location, eg San Ysidro McDonald's massacre. If it was just McDonald's or Pulse, it could have been anywhere.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 23:34, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
Grammar error
"A recently discharged Marine veteran, Imran Yousuf, who was working as a bouncer immediately recognized the sounds as gunfire from a high-caliber gun, jumped over a locked door—behind which dozens of people were hidden and paralyzed by fear—and opened a latched door behind them that allowed about 70 people to escape." sounds wrong. I think it should be "who was working as a bouncer AND immediately recognized the sounds of gunfire, jumped over [...]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2606:A000:ED02:A200:D8CD:D9BD:4FCB:D4AD (talk) 06:13, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Listing Las Vegas
Can we get an explicit consensus on my reasoning here? Are we going to forever maintain all articles that were once at the top of some "deadliest" category to list all of those that succeeded them? Apparently that's the intention, judging from Virginia Tech shooting.[7] ―Mandruss ☎ 08:09, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
- It's remarkable how the bar has been raised in the last few years. The article doesn't need a Billboard-style chart rundown, although it is worth mentioning that Orlando was the deadliest incident until Las Vegas. Perhaps not in the WP:LEAD though.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 08:28, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
- Once Las Vegas loses the title, I don't know how we could continue to mention only Las Vegas without falsely implying that it still holds the title. That will put this article into the same situation as VA Tech. I think it's sufficient to say it was the deadliest at the time. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:32, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Where do the 69 people shot by Anders Breivik fit in? This is only the US title, the worldwide one still belongs to Breivik. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:6085:1100:F8E4:2E5D:F51:2D4E (talk) 07:17, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
- That's another story. Despite everything that has happened, a European still holds the all-time record. There are various articles such as List of rampage killers, but this article shouldn't get bogged down in long lists of comparisons.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 07:25, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
- "Once Las Vegas loses the title"? That sounds ominous and insightful. 47.137.183.192 (talk) 22:19, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Page title
MrX reverted the 11 October move from 2016 Orlando nightclub shooting to Orlando nightclub shooting claiming that my reasoning (namely WP:PRECISE and WP:CONCISE) was faulty. I would appreciate a more detailed explanation as to why 2016 Orlando nightclub shooting is preferred to Orlando nightclub shooting. Surtsicna (talk) 14:37, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
- The year makes it more precise, not less. Also, if I recall correctly, this was not the only shooting in in an Orlando nightclub. You should be able to find that discussion in the archives. You are welcome to do a WP:MOVEREQ to seek input from other editors.- MrX 14:42, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
- I support keeping the year in the title and it should not be changed without a consensus at a formal move request.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 15:02, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
The year makes it more precise but less concise. Titles can also be too precise. WP:PRECISE says: "Usually, titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but no more precise than that. For instance, Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta is too precise, as Mother Teresa is precise enough to indicate exactly the same topic." This is not to say that there were not other people named Mother Teresa.
I have not found anything about this in the archives. Could you direct me, please, MrX?
I have confirmed through Google that this was not the only shooting in an Orlando nightclub, yet Orlando nightclub shooting redirects here and no other shootings are mentioned. Is it because the other shootings were just news and not encyclopedically notable? Whatever the case, it should be noted that this was not even the only Orlando nightclub shooting in 2016. According to these search results, 2 people were killed and 10 injured in a shooting in an Orlando nightclub in February 2016. Then a man was shot outside a nightclub in Orlando in March 2016. I cannot find info on whether there were any Orlando nightclub shootings in 2016 after the one on 12 June, because all the results I get after that date are about the Pulse mass shooting.
This means either that the current title is not precise enough or that it is too precise, depending on whether we can agree that the Pulse mass shooting is the primary topic for Orlando nightclub shooting. What do you think? Surtsicna (talk) 15:55, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
- The problem with "Pulse" is that it doesn't mean much per WP:COMMONNAME. It's true that the Pulse nightclub was targeted, but if you stopped a hundred people in the street at random and asked them what the Pulse mass shooting was, you might get some blank looks.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 16:05, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
- I see. But the present title is also not in line with WP:COMMONNAME. "Orlando nightclub shooting" is 12 times more common than "2016 Orlando nightclub shooting". Needless to say, virtually all search results in both cases refer to this event (even though the phrase is not entirely unambigious in either case). That is why I suggest moving this to Orlando nightclub shooting, not Pulse mass shooting. Surtsicna (talk) 16:15, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
- Unfortunately I'm not sure where in the archives the discussion took place. I vaguely remember that someone suggested a similar title and someone else mentioned that there was another (less notable) nightclub shooting in Orlando. - MrX 17:46, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks anyway, MrX. But there wasn't just one other nightclub shooting in Orlando. There were at least two others in 2016 alone. If this shooting is the only encyclopedically notable one, then the title should be shortened. Either way "2016" does not really add anything but length. Surtsicna (talk) 18:22, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
- Unfortunately I'm not sure where in the archives the discussion took place. I vaguely remember that someone suggested a similar title and someone else mentioned that there was another (less notable) nightclub shooting in Orlando. - MrX 17:46, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
- I see. But the present title is also not in line with WP:COMMONNAME. "Orlando nightclub shooting" is 12 times more common than "2016 Orlando nightclub shooting". Needless to say, virtually all search results in both cases refer to this event (even though the phrase is not entirely unambigious in either case). That is why I suggest moving this to Orlando nightclub shooting, not Pulse mass shooting. Surtsicna (talk) 16:15, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
Requested move 12 November 2017
2016 Orlando nightclub shooting → Orlando nightclub shooting – Discussed above. The year does not add anything but length.
If we agree that the Pulse mass shooting is the only notable Orlando nightclub shooting, then this article should be moved to Orlando nightclub shooting per WP:PRECISE and WP:CONCISE. As these guidelines explain, titles can be too precise (e.g. Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta is too precise, while Mother Teresa is precise enough). It is true that there have been other nightclub shootings in Orlando but a) "2016" does not serve as disambiguation, because there were at least 2 such events in 2016, b) the subject of this article is clearly the primary topic of Orlando nightclub shooting, which consequently already redirects here.
Unsurprisingly, "Orlando nightclub shooting" is much more common than "2016 Orlando nightclub shooting" (12 times more common, in fact).
If someone wishes to argue that the once deadliest mass shooting in the U.S. history is not the primary topic of Orlando nightclub shooting, she or he is welcome to propose an alternative, but as I said, "2016" is poor even as a disambiguator. Surtsicna (talk) 19:26, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
- Support - There's no way those other 2016 Orlando nightclub shootings are the ones readers will be looking for on Wikipedia. The year is completely unnecessary in the title. HastyBriar321 (talk) 21:00, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose the year is standard format for events, removing it adds nothing to reader experience. Someone might well search 2016 Orlando shootings" without nightclub and the year tells them they've got near the right article, etc. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:26, 12 November 2017 (UTC)