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Transmission - Is it sexually transmitted?
Can a confirmed user take a look at https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/07/covid-19-found-in-semen-of-infected-men-say-chinese-doctors Thanks 86.142.36.66 (talk) 21:51, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
- No different than flu or many other viruses. It can be transmitted by many bodily fluids. To say something is sexually transmitted implies that that is the only or most typical way for it to spread. MartinezMD (talk) 22:22, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
- Unless you know how to do sex while keeping 2m distance, does it really matter ? Iluvalar (talk) 02:44, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
- With ebola, for example, after there was clinical recovery, the virus was still found in semen several weeks later. So it may have some bearing here if it persists afterwards, but it's too soon to tell. MartinezMD (talk) 04:31, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
- Unless you know how to do sex while keeping 2m distance, does it really matter ? Iluvalar (talk) 02:44, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
No we need to say that it can be transmitted via saliva and intimate contact that isn’t obvious from close contact. Many sexual health authorities have made statements on the issue. Holland interestingly said no, sex is a human right today. Which it is but people need to be informed about sex as a transmission mode. It is not a STI though Almaty (talk) 05:09, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
Cleaning Up Complications
The 'Complications' section needed to be more concise, so I worked on it but would like to hear others' thoughts. I think the struggle will be to avoid getting into minutiae while highlighting the major complications, namely the cardiopulmonary ones. While the neurological complications are sourced, the paper is in Spanish, and I cannot verify it. I also reduced the length of details on pediatric multisystem inflammatory syndrome. Moksha88 (talk) 02:56, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
- I have replaced a mass of primary sources / popular press with a high quality secondary source. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:00, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Doc James: Sorry, I didn't see your reply here until just now but also didn't see where you removed those sources. I did want to bring to your attention this sentence in the lead paragraph I've tried editing, "While the majority of cases result in mild symptoms, some progress to acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS), multi-organ failure, septic shock, and blood clots." I think the last complication should be death because it logically follows as the most severe complication. Previously, it was cytokine storm and now someone has changed it to blood clots. What do you think? Moksha88 (talk) 02:51, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- We already mention the exact number of deaths just above that. I do not think we need to mention it again User:Moksha88 as it is duplication. There are lots of potential complications, IMO we should keep it to four with the rest going in the body. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:54, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Doc James: Sorry, I didn't see your reply here until just now but also didn't see where you removed those sources. I did want to bring to your attention this sentence in the lead paragraph I've tried editing, "While the majority of cases result in mild symptoms, some progress to acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS), multi-organ failure, septic shock, and blood clots." I think the last complication should be death because it logically follows as the most severe complication. Previously, it was cytokine storm and now someone has changed it to blood clots. What do you think? Moksha88 (talk) 02:51, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- I have replaced a mass of primary sources / popular press with a high quality secondary source. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:00, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
Why was cytokine storm removed that lancet paper has been cited thousands of times already Almaty (talk) 05:11, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
Discretionary sanctions on the use of preprints
I am appalled by the use of preprints to support content in this article. The website MedRxiv displays a clear disclaimer:
Caution: Preprints are preliminary reports of work that have not been certified by peer review. They should not be relied on to guide clinical practice or health-related behavior and should not be reported in news media as established information.
Lets be clear about this; preprints aren't even suitable for newspapers, let alone an encyclopedia whose purpose is "to present a neutrally written summary of existing mainstream knowledge in a fair and accurate manner" (WP:AIM).
I'm giving notice that tomorrow I intend to place a general sanction on the page to prohibit the use of preprints as sources in this article. This ought to be simply a matter of respecting our guidelines on WP:Reliable sources and WP:MEDRS, but it now seems necessary. I'm naturally willing to hear reasons why discretionary sanctions should not be necessary to enforce our basic sourcing guidelines. --RexxS (talk) 21:51, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Support, obviously. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:08, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Support. We should not be using preprints EVER. MartinezMD (talk) 22:53, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- This is a WP:point, against WP:5P5, WP:5P4, WP:5P3 and potentially WP:5P2. This is an article about a current event. Our main source in the contested chapter (IFR) say I quote loosely : "Since yesterday [...] one research group has provided a correction of their estimate of the Infection-Fatality Ratio (IFR)". Since yesterday... Is that the pinnacle of peer review we strive for ? We have to deal with research that change daily, there is no need to put the big administrator boots and add yet another banner on top of this page. Just to state the obvious that peer reviewed source would be preferable. Everyone here agree. Iluvalar (talk) 22:56, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose. What we’re up against are bat shit crazy conspiracy theories. That’s the reality of the situation. We’re also at risk of irrelevancy due to the 24-hour news cycle and social media.
And then I’d ask, How often really does a professional journal make substantial changes to a pre-print? I mean, if we’re going to make big sacrifices to piously remain on the sidelines, that’s kind of an important question. Especially when a clear better alternative is to say “According to a preliminary study . . ” or something of this sort, or even add “(pre-print, not yet subject to peer review)” if we feel that’s necessary. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 04:12, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- You might want to read up on WP:NOTNEWS and maybe The road to hell is paved with good intentions MartinezMD (talk) 04:46, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- Let me throw the question back to you. If a colleague said “a preprint showed . . ” pertaining to a real live patient under the care of both of you, would you try to pretend you never heard it, or would you cautiously take it into account? FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 05:06, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- You might want to read up on WP:NOTNEWS and maybe The road to hell is paved with good intentions MartinezMD (talk) 04:46, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
As an example :
- “For several weeks from January and February, a preliminary study from China found that approximately 13% of transmission from pre-symptomatic persons.”
- Du, Zhanwei; Xu, Xiaoke; Wu, Ye; et al. (June 2020). "Early Release — Serial Interval of COVID-19 among Publicly Reported Confirmed Cases". Emerging Infectious Diseases. doi:10.3201/eid2606.200357. PMID 32191173.
This compares similarly to the Korean CDC finding that 20% of patients with confirmed cases remained asymptomatic during their hospital stay.
And not sure early release is quite the same as a pre-print. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 05:01, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- I'm better qualified than someone from the general public reading WP to differentiate non-peer reviewed information and put it in proper perspective. Otherwise I'd have been using hydroxychloroquine which I haven't because I felt the reports were too premature. Even let's say we're dealing with someone who has good logic, unless they're a medical professional dealing with these cases, do they really need the inclusion of non-reviewed data? Can't they wait a couple weeks? MartinezMD (talk) 05:31, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- To me, the overall issue of whether we remain relevant, or not, is huge. And in that context, a couple of weeks can be a big deal.
So, a professional journal is okay with a pre-print, with the qualification of course, but for us, Oh no. We have to outdo them and be more goody two-shoes, more by-the-book, seemingly more everything.
Dr. Martinez, I compliment you on bringing up the specific issue of hydroxychloroquine (not sure why people thought an anti-malaria drug might work in the first place). We need more healthy yin-yang between the specific and the general. Too often here at Wiki, we seem to rabbit-hole and focus on policy and abstract principle only.
And frankly, we seem to view a lot of participation as a “problem” to be managed. Don’t quite get that. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 21:16, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- To me, the overall issue of whether we remain relevant, or not, is huge. And in that context, a couple of weeks can be a big deal.
- Re: " If a colleague said “a preprint showed . . ” pertaining to a real live patient under the care of both of you, would you try to pretend you never heard it, or would you cautiously take it into account?'""... How medical professionals deal with patients and how an encyclopedia is written are worlds apart. Medics are necessarily at the leading edge of developments, while an encyclopedia should be at the trailing edge and only include content that's made its way through to WP:MEDRS compliance. We are *not* here to try to guide medics or to try to guide treatments - that would be irresponsible. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:58, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, I asked the question, but it’s not my intention to make a philosophic treatise out of it or anything of the sort. Generally, it’s my view that we go with our references, no more, no less. And it’s amazing how a view as straightforward as this has run into opposition.
I urge you not to decide ahead of time that we’re going to relegate ourselves to the trailing edge. I’ve had two friendly acquaintances who have gone off into the wild blue yonder of Coronavirus conspiracy theory. Holy cow. Look around, and ask around. You may know a couple, too.
So, yeah, we stay middle-of-the-read, providing good medical journal quality information, and we can do a world of good. And people will take notice and say, hey, Wikipedia did pretty alright regarding COVID-19, rather than a grudging, did okay I guess.
Deciding we’re going to have a “better” standard than a medical journal comes with a cost. And that cost is some erosion of our relevance. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 05:25, 13 May 2020 (UTC)- The decision to be "trailing edge" on reporting breaking news was made a long time ago by Jimbo when he decided to start a project that was an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. Keeping up with CNN has never been one of Wikipedia's goals. The reason so many people now respect Wikipedia as a counter-balance to misinformation is precisely that we are so careful to only write what is well accepted mainstream fact. in the case of statements about the effects or symptoms of diseases or the efficacy of treatments for them, for example, we insist on only reporting what has become accepted by good quality secondary sources that have taken the time to review the field and to analyse it. So many primary studies are never reproduced that we've learned to wait until a source does the checks for us. If we don't have the reassurance that gives us, it is far better to say nothing. --RexxS (talk) 15:23, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- I was going to explain that the decision to "relegate ourselves to the trailing edge" was deliberate and is, in my view, exactly what an encyclopedia should do. But RexxS has explained it, so I don't need to (except that I just did). Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:29, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- Regarding accuracy . . . we don’t check legacy material!! I mean, someone will summarize a source and post. And then weeks or months later, someone else will rewrite this according to their idea of how an encyclopedia should sound, without going back and checking the source. And maybe person #3 will come along and rewrite. It’s a very dicey process. It truly is a weakest-link-in-the-chain process.
Fortunately, we don’t have as many mistakes as one might think, because a lot of stuff isn’t rewritten even once, a lot of the rewrites are minor tweaks, etc. But the risk is there. I think we can help by talking up the importance of checking older material, and by making things inviting for beginning members so we can have more sets of eyes.
And I’m skeptical of philosophy and the meta, as if our goal is to never again have to think? We’re never going to reach there and it’d probably be a poor idea if we ever did.
I mean, in the time we’ve discussed all this, we probably could have worked through references 91, 284, 287 from the Implementation section (the ones sourced to MedReiv).
As an aside on philosophy, I remember a part from Richard Feynman’s bio in which he attended a grad seminar on philosophy and the professor asked him if he thought an electron was an “essential object” (term put forward by a British philosopher). Feynman said he first wanted to ask if a brick was an “essential object,” and the grad students had widely differing viewpoints! His second question was going to be if the inside of a brick . . . but he never even got to it.
That’s rather how I feel about some of our more abtract discussions. Again, I’m the person who says, let’s summarize what a good source says, no more, no less. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 00:12, 14 May 2020 (UTC)- @FriendlyRiverOtter: Please read WP:MEDRS and come back to the discussion once you have understood it. --RexxS (talk) 00:41, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Regarding accuracy . . . we don’t check legacy material!! I mean, someone will summarize a source and post. And then weeks or months later, someone else will rewrite this according to their idea of how an encyclopedia should sound, without going back and checking the source. And maybe person #3 will come along and rewrite. It’s a very dicey process. It truly is a weakest-link-in-the-chain process.
- Yes, I asked the question, but it’s not my intention to make a philosophic treatise out of it or anything of the sort. Generally, it’s my view that we go with our references, no more, no less. And it’s amazing how a view as straightforward as this has run into opposition.
- I'm better qualified than someone from the general public reading WP to differentiate non-peer reviewed information and put it in proper perspective. Otherwise I'd have been using hydroxychloroquine which I haven't because I felt the reports were too premature. Even let's say we're dealing with someone who has good logic, unless they're a medical professional dealing with these cases, do they really need the inclusion of non-reviewed data? Can't they wait a couple weeks? MartinezMD (talk) 05:31, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- Support This is essential to keep Wikipedia free from inaccuracies. Thank you for agreeing to take on this work. Replace with / adjust to secondary sources when and as able. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:59, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Implementation
As no compelling argument has been brought forward to explain why this article should be an exception to our reliable sourcing requirements, I've imposed the following specific restriction:
- Editors are prohibited from adding preprints as sources for content in this article.
I've logged that at Wikipedia:General sanctions/Coronavirus disease 2019 and included edit notices and a notice on this talk page. After being made aware of the general sanctions applicable to this page, any editor breaching the prohibition may be sanctioned by any uninvolved administrator, as authorised at WP:GS/COVID19#GS.
There are currently three citations (91, 284, 287) sourced to MedRxiv. These should be removed and the text adjusted as necessary to maintain WP:V.
I ask all editors to respect our sourcing guidelines: sources failing WP:MEDRS should not be used to support any biomedical content; sources failing WP:RS should not be used to support any content at all. This is an encyclopedia, and we should not be trying to compete with news outlets to bring the latest information to readers. We have a sister project, Wikinews, whose purpose is to do that. We should be striving to bring the most accurate information as possible to readers, and that means working only within our sourcing policies and guidelines. I hope that editors will remove sources that fail these guidelines and not restore any challenged material without first discussing it on the talk page.
If it proves necessary, I'll consider a further sanction to prohibit the use of primary sources and animal studies to support biomedical content. --RexxS (talk) 19:25, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- No compelling argument, eh? I’m not sure one should both energetically champion a viewpoint, and neutrally sit as a judge. Perhaps most of all, when one is largely right! Ironic how life often works out that way.
Okay, I will continue as a good citizen in the Wiki Universe. I do reserve the right, however, to revisit this issue if I feel a specific case is important enough.
And I always thought one of the goals of a consensus process is more democratic discussion. Not sure it always works out that way in practice. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 22:33, 13 May 2020 (UTC)- @FriendlyRiverOtter: The viewpoint I'm "championing" is sticking with our sourcing policies and guidelines, and the only actions I'm taking are reasonable measures that an enforcing administrator would believe are necessary and proportionate for the smooth running of the project. The consensuses involved here are the project-wide ones that established WP:RS and WP:MEDRS, and if you want to change those, you are free to start a discussion at their talk pages to do so – that's the democratic process. In the meantime, you will respect those consensuses. The only things I'm asking you or anyone else to do is to stop adding unreliable sources to the article and to stop adding primary sources to support biomedical content. Editors in every other medical topic can abide by our sourcing policies and guidelines, and there's no reason why editors here should fail to do so. --RexxS (talk) 00:24, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Now, whether we’re really going to go the route of secondary sources only, that’s an entirely separate discussion. I don’t think WP:MEDRS is that hardcore about it. Yes, I have read it before, but it’s been a while. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 17:04, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- @FriendlyRiverOtter: The viewpoint I'm "championing" is sticking with our sourcing policies and guidelines, and the only actions I'm taking are reasonable measures that an enforcing administrator would believe are necessary and proportionate for the smooth running of the project. The consensuses involved here are the project-wide ones that established WP:RS and WP:MEDRS, and if you want to change those, you are free to start a discussion at their talk pages to do so – that's the democratic process. In the meantime, you will respect those consensuses. The only things I'm asking you or anyone else to do is to stop adding unreliable sources to the article and to stop adding primary sources to support biomedical content. Editors in every other medical topic can abide by our sourcing policies and guidelines, and there's no reason why editors here should fail to do so. --RexxS (talk) 00:24, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Prohibiting preprints seems like a reasonable thing to do, but I have hesitations about whether this is an appropriate use of general sanctions, so I'd appreciate clarification from RexxS about what specifically this does. As I understand them (and my understanding may be wrong, so please educate me if that's needed), the general sanctions are intended to target editors who "repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process". Do we have cases of editors warring to try to include preprints as sources? Does this mean that if a well-meaning editor who has been alerted to the sanctions due to an unrelated matter accidentally adds a preprint (perhaps not knowing it was such, or perhaps not knowing preprints are disallowed), they could get blocked? What makes this something we should implement as a general sanction, rather than just something to add to the COVID-19 WikiProject current consensus list? {{u|Sdkb}} talk 00:18, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Sdkb:
"Do we have cases of editors warring to try to include preprints as sources?"
Yes."Does this mean that if a well-meaning editor who has been alerted to the sanctions due to an unrelated matter accidentally adds a preprint (perhaps not knowing it was such, or perhaps not knowing preprints are disallowed), they could get blocked?"
Yes."What makes this something we should implement as a general sanction, rather than just something to add to the COVID-19 WikiProject current consensus list?"
WP:RS is not a local consensus;it's a project-wide consensus, and in the opinion of at least three administrators, it's needed to protect the smooth running of the project.
- If you disagree with it, please feel free to question my judgement at WP:AN or WP:AE. I'm willing to defend the measure vigorously. --RexxS (talk) 00:34, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Pinging the referenced admins @Doc James and Boing! said Zebedee: Is your support above for implementing this measure as a general sanction, or just for the measure itself? Is there anything you'd want to add to RexxS's response to my inquiry? {{u|Sdkb}} talk 00:55, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- In my opinion it is reasonable to warn someone regarding the use of preprints. If they continue not to heed the warnings than escalating edit limitations would be reasonable. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:18, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, I think the use of general sanctions is warranted here. And if someone uses a preprint as a source (even accidentally) after having been warned, a block is a reasonable response. The same is true of all general/discretionary sanctions/policy prohibitions, that people can be blocked for accidentally breaching them after having been warned. I'd expect someone responding "Sorry, that was accidental, I hadn't properly checked and didn't realise it was a preprint" to be unblocked quickly. Oh, and no, I have nothing of any substance to add to RexxS's position - I fully agree with it. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 05:40, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Pinging the referenced admins @Doc James and Boing! said Zebedee: Is your support above for implementing this measure as a general sanction, or just for the measure itself? Is there anything you'd want to add to RexxS's response to my inquiry? {{u|Sdkb}} talk 00:55, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Sdkb:
I'm confused about this. What does this have to do with DS? I remove pre-prints from articles as a matter of practice. Does this mean you treat pre-prints differently than other unreliable sources? Natureium (talk) 02:26, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- My take is that we have people arguing that preprints are valid sources for medical articles, meaning we need to make it explicit that preprints are considered unreliable sources and should not be used. That is, it clarifies that we do not treat preprints differently from other unreliable sources. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 05:37, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- I actually agree with @RexxS: 90% of the way. It’s only that last 10%. On an occasional, sparring basis, with the qualifier “a preliminary study shows . . , ” I don’t think we should immediately dismiss using a pre-print. And I ask the Emperor’s clothing question, how often is a pre-print really changed in any kind of major way before publication?
So, we’re going to have a “higher” standard than JAMA, are we? JAMA makes pre-prints available — with a qualification of course (key point!). And we’re going to do this as if super “high” standards are some kind of unalloyed good thing. I’ve learned that when organizations proclaim unrealistically high standards, there are problems. Or, you give in other areas. And dear reader, you may have observed some of the same.
And no, I’m not crazy about blocking people for an innocent mistake when they most likely would have appreciated a heads up and being brought up to speed. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 17:23, 14 May 2020 (UTC)- @FriendlyRiverOtter: Which bit of
makes you think that they are reliable sources for any content at all? JAMA presently makes preprints available for researchers to see what cutting edge research is happening and what effect it might have on their own research. It does not make it available to facilitate amateur reporters seizing on any headline-grabbing findings and attempting to cram them into an encyclopedia.Preprints are preliminary reports of work that have not been certified by peer review. They should not be relied on to guide clinical practice or health-related behavior and should not be reported in news media as established information.
- Neither you nor I have any idea how many changes occur between pre-print and publication overall. I can only add anecdotally that the last paper I was an author on required several changes and clarifications during the peer-review process. So your rhetorical question can only be seen as a veiled attempt to undermine our insistence on peer-review or similar editorial quality control for reliable sources. Please stop that. It simply encourages wannabe journalists to ignore our accepted policies and guidelines. Our higher standards for medical content as laid out in WP:MEDRS are agreed project-wide and I'm reaching the end of my patience with your tendentious challenges to those standards.
- There's no reason for anyone to be blocked if they simply self-revert their mistake when notified of the problem, and do their best not to repeat the error. That's not what discretionary sanctions are for, but that's just my personal opinion on DS, and you still run the risk of sanctions from any admin if you breach them. --RexxS (talk) 17:55, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Prepints undergo several revisions. In my brief life in academia, I've been a reviewer and had authors make changes. I've had my own papers revised from reviewers' suggestions as well. I'll repeat that preprints and any paper that has not been peer-reviewed have no business on WP as a source. They are simply unreliable. Now if someone makes a simple error, I think we all agree a simple reversion is all that's required. MartinezMD (talk) 18:05, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Re
with the qualifier "a preliminary study shows..."
: One problem is that you can't really say that from a preprint, because a preprint isn't even a reliable source for what the preliminary study actually shows. The problem is not that the study is preliminary, it's that the words in the preprint are preliminary. It needs the review stage to check it's correctly reporting what the preliminary study actually does show. "An unreviewed preliminary claim indicates that a study might show that..." is possibly the strongest level of claim I think we could make from a preprint. And that's no use at all. Oh, and, @FriendlyRiverOtter: Wikipedia's WP:MEDRS policy and the consensus here are very firmly against you. Preprints will not be used in Medical articles. You need to learn when to listen and move on. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:24, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Just to be clear before we close this, Jmv2009 didn't change a single comma on the content of the article. He just happened to add yet another estimation of the IFR in a chapter already full of it and well inside the spectrum of the other estimations. I felt like it was somewhat useful in the context of the IFR chapter in constant rewriting. At least, it shouldn't be reverted out of silly principle. Was it a great source ? Obviously not, it's the IFR chapter, what you expect... We still wait for better meta analysis. I might be wrong... but I truly hope that the admin that will apply this new sanction will look at the context calmly before applying it blindly. I was expecting someone else to revert me if needed, not a big banner on my talk page and this big vote/talk about obvious shortcomings of preprints. That's all I mean. Now, let's go edit and close this chapter. Iluvalar (talk) 01:57, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- @FriendlyRiverOtter: Which bit of
- I actually agree with @RexxS: 90% of the way. It’s only that last 10%. On an occasional, sparring basis, with the qualifier “a preliminary study shows . . , ” I don’t think we should immediately dismiss using a pre-print. And I ask the Emperor’s clothing question, how often is a pre-print really changed in any kind of major way before publication?
As a pragmatic individual, I added the following Johns Hopkins ref. about Coronavirus and kidney damage:
And then, I deleted the following MedRxiv ref. and summary expressly because it is a pre-print not yet fully peer-reviewed:
Two other MedRxiv sources are currently footnoted 290 and 293. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 05:05, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
I strongly feel that this doesn’t need specific sanctions, just normal sanctions for edit warring when they are challenged and removed.
One can cite a pre print if it isn’t to make a medical claim for instance, I have inserted several, such as that Wuhans lockdown was arguably successful which stood for at least a week. That was a preprint. Not a medical claim and appropriately balanced. But it was still a preprint in the lead
Just got to enforce edit warring Almaty (talk) 05:27, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
In fact I think this article isn’t getting updated as much as it should be and more newcomers would help. Might be time to revisit protection and stuff Almaty (talk) 05:30, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Almaty: The community decided that Wikipedia:General sanctions/Coronavirus disease 2019 are to be applied here. The community discussion found overwhelming support for the measures, so your opinion is noted, but has no validity.
"One can cite a pre print if it isn’t to make a medical claim for instance"
. No you can't. They don't even pass WP:RS and are unsuitable to support any content outside of an article about pre-prints. I'd be grateful if you'd stop encouraging other editors to breach GS restrictions and our sourcing policies and guidelines. If you insert a pre-print again, you'll be sanctioned.- The enforcement of edit-warring restrictions will still happen, but with general sanctions in force, we're a long way past that. If experienced editors are failing to enforce policy, removing semi-protection would result in anarchy. That's not going to happen. --RexxS (talk) 02:16, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- 10% in boston (city employees). [1] with this quote : "Walsh says the 10% figure is lower than what he would have expected in Boston. He suggests the actual number of people, in a larger sample size, might be 15-20%. ". (bold from me) I love this guy, my new champion <3 lol. @Doc_James
- RexxS, trust me we understand what you say, but at the same time you got a wide array of opinion at this point. We are all dealing with questionable sources due to the topic. And apparently many of us don't seem very excited by an admin applying guidelines blindly. There is plenty of us who proofread the article daily. Iluvalar (talk) 04:19, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Doc James, Boing! said Zebedee, El C, and Ymblanter: - admins active in this topic area. Do I have to put up with continued insults from Iluvalar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)? They have just called my efforts to uphold RS and MEDRS for the sourcing on this article "
an admin applying guidelines blindly
". This page is littered with attacks from Iluvalar on our sourcing guidelines, and with tendentious comments aimed at the admin actions I've taken so far. I'm willing to topic ban him myself, but no doubt we'd get more drama with wikilawyering about what constitutes WP:INVOLVED. --RexxS (talk) 20:09, 17 May 2020 (UTC)- Not sure why RexxS read everything I say like direct personal attacks. He said "I'm only involved here in an administrative capacity" to FriendlyRiverOtter a little lower in the talk page. I'm just following the conversation. Is he an admin applying rules as is, or a contributor bringing opinions about the value of those sources ? He can't really be both at the same time. Iluvalar (talk) 20:47, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- Ok, I am clearly an uninvolved admin (I believe I have never posted on this page before), and I confirm this decision (prohibition to cite preprints).--Ymblanter (talk) 21:13, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- Iluvalar, those sources were already prohibited by WP:MEDRS, and the discussion here was just to confirm that specifically about preprints. It's now time for you to shut up and stop whining about it, and stop casting aspersions about admins "applying guidelines blindly". Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:23, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Doc James, Boing! said Zebedee, El C, and Ymblanter: - admins active in this topic area. Do I have to put up with continued insults from Iluvalar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)? They have just called my efforts to uphold RS and MEDRS for the sourcing on this article "
Semi-protected edit request on 12 May 2020
pandemic statistics Abdullahiabdul7 (talk) 12:55, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Not done. You haven't included the details of the change you actually wish to make, or provided a source for any statistics. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:21, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Abdullahiabdul7: I think you may be looking for the article COVID-19 pandemic. --RexxS (talk) 18:31, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
vitamin D
I suppose something could be written in the article about the role of vitamin D. see here and here. I keep finding this information looking for non medical ones, so there might be some worth in it. Regards.--Alexmar983 (talk) 22:35, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- I agree and so have added a paragraph about Vitamin D: [2]. Andrew🐉(talk) 23:50, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- I really wish you wouldn't, Andrew. That's a biomedical claim and those are primary sources. A search on Trip database offers a good review from the Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine which concludes there is no clinical evidence. Until we get another secondary source that gives a different conclusion, that's what we should stick with. --RexxS (talk) 01:08, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- I agree and so have added a paragraph about Vitamin D: [2]. Andrew🐉(talk) 23:50, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- They're crap studies too. First one says low vitamin D is associated with increased mortality, but also that happens in old people who happen to the ones at most risk for dying from Covid. The second one is pre-print (not peer reviewed) and that has been the focus of intense discussion -see section above, and the best they can conclude is "could possibly improve clinical outcomes... Further research should conduct randomized controlled trials and large population studies to evaluate this recommendation." - in other words "We don't know, maybe someone can do a better job than us" is my interpretation of that. MartinezMD (talk) 02:13, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Furthermore, I removed a single reference to Vitamin D in the article that was out of place and also the source said "Disclaimer: This article has not been peer-reviewed". MartinezMD (talk) 05:46, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Agree with RexxS and MartinezMD. Yes COVID "could" be associated with anything and everything. That does not mean that any of these associations are causal / meaningful. This is one more reason why we so strongly support the use of high quality secondary sources, to winnow out all these poorly supported associations. Yes unhealthy people have low vit D, yes unhealthy people die from COVID. Just as towns with alot of pubs also have a lot of churches. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:23, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- And I agree with RexxS, MartinezMD and Doc James. Any content added based on those sources should be removed. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:19, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- So, a distinguished professor of epidemiology at Harvard says that "the evidence is becoming quite compelling" but we require more. Ok, let's start collecting relevant sources:
- Does Vitamin D Protect Against COVID-19?
- The role of vitamin D in the prevention of coronavirus disease 2019 infection and mortality
- Is vitamin D an important biomarker for symptom severity in COVID-19?
- Vitamin D for prevention of respiratory tract infections
- The Possible Role of Vitamin D in Suppressing Cytokine Storm and Associated Mortality in COVID-19 Patients
- COVID-19 ’ICU’ risk – 20-fold greater in the Vitamin D Deficient.
- Vitamin D advice for everyone: coronavirus
- Patterns of COVID-19 Mortality and Vitamin D: An Indonesian Study
- Coronavirus: Should I start taking vitamin D?
- Perspective: improving vitamin D status in the management of COVID-19
- Vitamin D and Inflammation: Potential Implications for Severity of Covid-19
- A Comprehensive Literature Review on the Clinical Presentation, and Management of the Pandemic Coronavirus Disease 2019 (has a section on Vitamin D, showing the weight given in context with other factors)
- There's a variety of sources there. As lots of respectable people are talking about this, our article should say something too. Currently, the article now says nothing at all about Vitamin D whereas it finds space to say something about bleach. But if the article says nothing about the matter, then readers will naturally go elsewhere to get their information. My view is that it is common sense. Vitamin D deficiency is common and it is already public health advice that "those who don’t get out in the sun or always cover their skin when they do, should take a vitamin D supplement throughout the year". Me, I'm taking a couple of teaspoons of cod liver oil daily and making sure to get some sun. What are the rest of you doing? Andrew🐉(talk) 08:22, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Well, I'm not saying we shouldn't say anything about Vitamin D, just that we shouldn't make any efficacy claims based on primary sources. So no, I don't care what a "distinguished professor of epidemiology at Harvard" says - if it's not in a WP:MEDRS source, it should not be repeated in Wikipedia's voice. I have not yet examined those other sources. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:07, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Oh, and whether it's wise to take a vit-D supplement as a compensation for not getting enough sun is not relevant to whether it's effective against Covid-19. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:11, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Andrew: the last source, the Comprehensive Literature Review, is just the sort of source we should be using for medical content. Unfortunately for this thread, it says nothing about the effect of vitamin D on treating COVID-19. It's tempting to say that (1) vitamin D has a prophylactic effect on ARDS and other respiratory conditions (not in doubt); and (2) COVID-19 may cause an effect very similar to ARDS (not in doubt). But to put the two together and try to state that therefore vitamin D has a prophylactic effect on COVID-19 is pure WP:SYNTH, and we have no accepted evidence base for any such assertion. --RexxS (talk) 15:11, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- No, this article should NOT say something about Vitamin D unless there is something to say. This is an encyclopedia article, not a guide for investigative treatment. The information here needs to be reliable, not speculative. MartinezMD (talk) 16:42, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 14 May 2020
List of companies that are in the race to find a treatment or vaccine for the novel coronavirus (COVID-19: Drugs in Development). Steve00257 (talk) 06:03, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think a small selection of companies made by an investment site is a good source for us to use, especially as it's really just clickbait for its "latest records of COVID-19 Drugs in Development Calendar". There are many more companies engaged in research than that small selection, and an exhaustive list would essentially just be a list of all the world's major pharamaceuticals plus dozens of smaller ones. I don't see encyclopedic value in that. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:15, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- If anything, that might belong in COVID-19 drug development or COVID-19 vaccine, but not here. MartinezMD (talk) 06:17, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- And even there, my objection to this source would stand. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:23, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
Obesity
Obesity is commonly suspected to be a significant risk factor but the article currently seems to say nothing about this. Here's an example of a source: Obesity and impaired metabolic health in patients with COVID-19. I suggest that we put something in the epidemiology section where we currently have sections for sex differences and ethnic differences. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:35, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- The source says nothing that connects obesity with COVID risks. Read it more thoroughly. This is why WP:MEDRS requires secondary sources. MartinezMD (talk) 16:39, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- The first sentence of that source is "Preliminary data suggest that people with obesity are at increased risk of severe COVID-19." And, of course, there are other sources such as Obesity could shift severe COVID-19 disease to younger ages. Andrew🐉(talk) 20:51, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Today's front page story in The Times is timely: Boris Johnson to launch war on fat after coronavirus scare. The PM was naturally persuaded by his own experience but the article cites recent research based on large numbers of NHS records. Looking for the underlying studies, I find Liam Smeeth; Ben Goldacre (7 May 2020), OpenSAFELY: factors associated with COVID-19-related hospital death in the linked electronic health records of 17 million adult NHS patients (PDF), doi:10.1101/2020.05.06.20092999. There's lots of good material here and note that the paper has a CC licence so we can freely reuse it. Regarding obesity, there's a table of hazard ratios which have been adjusted by age/sex and also by a fully-adjusted model. The results by body mass index are:
BMI class | hazard ratio (adjusted for age/sex) | hazard ratio (fully adjusted) |
---|---|---|
Not obese | 1.00 (ref) | 1.00 (ref) |
Obese class I (30–34.9 kg/m²) | 1.57 | 1.27 |
Obese class II (35–39.9 kg/m² | 2.01 | 1.56 |
Obese class III (≥ 40 kg/m²) | 2.97 | 2.27 |
As this seems to be the largest cohort studied so far – over 17 million people – these findings seem quite significant. We should list obesity as a risk factor in the article. Andrew🐉(talk) 16:19, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- The first two words of the article's page say "medRxiv preprint". Can you please stop disrupting the talk page with preprints and non-secondary sources? MartinezMD (talk) 20:04, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- @RexxS: for your opinion. MartinezMD (talk) 01:08, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- We can't use preprints. That's not just my opinion.
- For MEDRS sources, Trip finds some secondary sources that mention obesity. For example:
- "More recent data from a cohort of 5700 hospitalized patients with COVID-19 within a large healthcare system in New York City revealed common comorbidities including hypertension (56.6%), obesity (41.7%) ...[3]
- "Staff who should avoid involvement in airway management ... Current evidence would include in this group, older staff ... cardiac disease, chronic respiratory disease, diabetes, recent cancer and perhaps hypertension and obesity" [4]
- The secondary sources don't call obesity a risk factor, but it is understood to be a comorbidity. The problem with trying to draw any stronger conclusion is that cardiovascular disease and diabetes are commonly associated with obesity, and the evidence is clear that people with the those underlying conditions develop more severe symptoms of COVID-19 and have higher fatality rates. Because BMI is not usually measured and recorded in the same way as CVD and diabetes are, we only have patchy evidence to examine. I think that this review from the Norwegian Institute of Public Health does a good job of describing what we know – see the Results section starting on page 6. Hope tha helps. --RexxS (talk) 01:50, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Looks like an association but uncertain if independent. MartinezMD (talk) 02:18, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
I think 2020 must be added, this is what all us are living today, the big epidemic. 2021 and onwards perhaps going to be added, we see. --BoldLuis (talk) 11:43, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- What are you suggesting? MartinezMD (talk) 16:40, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Coronavirus disease 2019 is the name of the disease. And this isn't the article on the pandemic. The article on the pandemic is COVID-19 pandemic. Nil Einne (talk) 17:11, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
Sheltering in place is actually worse?
Here's an interesting theory that appeared on an editorial page, written by an ordinary person:
"According to many immunology and virology specialist and scientists, we build immunity when our immune system mounts a response after exposure to antigens such as bacteria and viruses to produce protective antibodies. It's possible that sheltering in place might decrease our immunity."
Anyone find any source to support such an idea?— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 20:40, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Where did you get that quote? And yes, that is standard immunology and it's reflective of the concept of herd immunity. That's why immunizations exist and sheltered populations are susceptible to new infections - like almost all of us with COVID, historically the native American with smallpox, etc. MartinezMD (talk) 20:54, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Ordinary people are blocked from seeing it. I happen to have a library card that lets me see these articles. I tried going to the newspaper's web site and got "No result found". I could give you the link but not everyone has access.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 21:12, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- It's alright. The idea has been discussed already in other sources. [1][2][3] The main issue is that for it to work, you need to infect the majority of the population, maybe the vast majority of people as with measles, or it doesn't work. So you really aren't treating people, you are simply letting nature take it's course. The purpose of social distancing, etc, is to delay the infection rate so the health care system can accommodate the people who get seriously sick and buy time to find effective treatments and maybe a vaccine. MartinezMD (talk) 21:28, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Ordinary people are blocked from seeing it. I happen to have a library card that lets me see these articles. I tried going to the newspaper's web site and got "No result found". I could give you the link but not everyone has access.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 21:12, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- The claim, though, is that those who aren't going out aren't getting a benefit and may be worse off. I get why herd immunity isn't possible given what happened in Italy and New York City. They were afraid it would happen where I live too.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 21:56, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- That would suggest the person is being immunized from the virus without getting ill. Even if a low-level exposure could do that, by not sheltering/social distancing you risk a high-level exposure. So that that person's theory doesn't hold water. I'd simply hold off for secondary sources as we've been discussing in much of the talk page. MartinezMD (talk) 22:19, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- The claim, though, is that those who aren't going out aren't getting a benefit and may be worse off. I get why herd immunity isn't possible given what happened in Italy and New York City. They were afraid it would happen where I live too.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 21:56, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
CFR vs IFR
I was editing the Infection fatality rate section, more specifically this sentence: As of May 7, in New York City, with a population of 8.4 million, 14,162 have died from COVID-19 (0.17% of the population).
Per IFR, isn't that [0.17%] the CFR instead? (population in denominator, as opposed to infected).
Feelthhis (talk) 22:05, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- No. The case fatality rate (CFR) is the number of deaths divided by the number of confirmed cases. The infection fatality rate (IFR) is the number of deaths divided by the number of people infected. The population fatality rate (PFR) is the number of deaths divided by the number of people in the population. CFR ≥ IFR ≥ PFR. I tried to convince Jmv2009 that putting that percentage into that section was confusing, but they decided they knew better. --RexxS (talk) 22:45, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Personally I prefer your revision as it removes confusion and I did not understand at all the revert summary "confusion is on purpose". And I will take this opportunity to ask: when it's said confirmed cases (for CFR), it really is actual real-world numbers for confirmed cases (even if we know the testing capacity is very low resulting in high subnotification)? Feelthhis (talk) 00:27, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Feelthhis: It's worth remembering that CFR, IFR and PFR don't just apply to COVID-19. Both the CFR and PFR are obviously simple metrics, because the numerator and denominator are matters of fact in reporting (the number of confirmed cases and confirmed deaths may not be accurate, but they are trivially countable). The IFR, which is actually the most useful metric, is always dependent on estimation. After a disease has run its course, it's often possible to get much closer estimates for IFR, so you'll find retrospective analyses for MERS, for example. It's interesting to note that Estimating the Severity and Subclinical Burden of Middle East Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus Infection in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia estimated an IFR of MERS at 22% (95% CI: 18, 25), which indicates it was far more lethal than COVID-19 seems to be. For comparison, smallpox's IFR was about 30%. The confounding factor, of course, is that whenever the volume of severe infections exceeds the capacity of a health service to treat them, the number of fatalities increases dramatically as people die who would have lived had they been treated. Hope that helps. --RexxS (talk) 20:30, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- Personally I prefer your revision as it removes confusion and I did not understand at all the revert summary "confusion is on purpose". And I will take this opportunity to ask: when it's said confirmed cases (for CFR), it really is actual real-world numbers for confirmed cases (even if we know the testing capacity is very low resulting in high subnotification)? Feelthhis (talk) 00:27, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
Long-term complications of Covid-19
Perhaps include more about it? Here is good source. Even if it does not satisfy WP:MEDRS, many sources scited there do satisfy MEDRS. My very best wishes (talk) 04:01, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- It's just speculation at present. Do you really think it's the job of an encyclopedia to speculate about what might happen? Doesn't WP:CRYSTAL apply to COVID-19?
- I looked hard for the MEDRS sources you mentioned, but couldn't find them. Perhaps you can help by listing them here for us? --RexxS (talk) 20:38, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
Can we remove all the primary studies in the transmission section then?
Also if the WHO does one study in February; it is a primary study even if they put it in a report. Anyway changed to Australian DoH. Almaty (talk) 05:07, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Almaty: Yes, please remove any primary sources anywhere that are being used to support a biomedical claim.
- If the WHO creates a report about a study, regardless of who did the study, you have to assume that the report is done by people well acquainted with the literature and that their analysis is informed by more than just one study. It's that process which gives bodies like WHO or national health organisations the authority we ascribe to them when placing their pronouncements in the category of "highest quality evidence" per MEDRS. There may be occasions where the assumption is unjustified, so I agree it's better at times to substitute another MEDRS source. --RexxS (talk) 01:57, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
I think you could have run this argument quite well in January. Now we have plenty of medrs sourcing out there were not even using the half of it yet Almaty (talk) 05:32, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
Can you please do warnings and personal discussions away from the talk page Almaty (talk) 00:33, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- Please feel free to archive discussions that are not related to the improvement of this article. You might also want to simply remove posts that start unproductive threads. --RexxS (talk) 01:57, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Header for WP:MEDRS says “. . best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply. . ”
- —> Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine):
- First header:
- “It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply. . . “
Now, that doesn’t mean run hog wild (and it doesn’t mean consensus first for our Coronavirus article).
With the rules, each of us can probably go faster. On the other hand, going the route of exception and common sense will probably benefit from slowing down, or at least making a point to come back later and take a second look.
An example might be primary sources.
With a new disease, we might occasionally need — or highly benefit from — using a primary source. Now, we’ve got to make sure we’re doing a solid, first-rate job of summarizing it, as well as putting it in context, for example, “One study of COVID-19 patients at three hospitals showed . . , ” this type of thing.
All the same, this a breath of fresh air. We’re not going to make a religion out of our policies . . . Thank Goodness!
Your ideas please. :-) FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 22:19, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- @FriendlyRiverOtter: As you don't seem able to drop the stick, here's my idea:
- I intend to impose a general sanction on this article prohibiting the use of primary sources to support biomedical claims. Any occasional common sense exception must receive clear consensus on the talk page prior to the edit being made.
- As for "One study of COVID-19 patients at three hospitals showed ...", if you finish that sentence with a biomedical claim, I'll block you until you're prepared to abide by our sourcing policies and guidelines. It's as simple as that. --RexxS (talk) 01:04, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- @RexxS: you’re one of us. You have jumped in and joined your fellow Wiki citizens, and we’re happy you have you! Now, I understand the policy is that any blocking has to come from an uninvolved admin, though I’m sure we both hope it doesn’t come to that.
- It’s fine if you don’t like me. I will point out that I was the first one who found an alternate source and deleted one of the MedRxiv references in the following edit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Coronavirus_disease_2019&diff=956758600&oldid=956758149 - And I deleted it because, exactly as you point out, it’s a pre-print. And plus, it doesn’t meet my personal standard of being worthy for a rare exception. We might disagree on this last point, but I actually did the work, and other people did not. And unless someone or a couple of someones has since fixed it, I think there are two other MedRxiv refs still in our article. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 20:07, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- @FriendlyRiverOtter: Don't patronise me. I've been editing medical articles for over 12 years, so I don't appreciate your sarcastic "welcome". You obviously don't understand the meaning of WP:INVOLVED, because I'm only involved here in an administrative capacity. Take careful note of "
Warnings, calm and reasonable discussion and explanation of those warnings, advice about community norms, and suggestions on possible wordings and approaches do not make an administrator 'involved'.
because I've been very patient with your repetitive provocations, as well as tolerant of your breaches of our sourcing policies and guidelines. I'd like to think that it won't come to the point where sanctions are the only step left to prevent your disruption, but that's entirely up to you. - I neither like you nor dislike you. I don't know you. My warnings and admonitions to you are not personal; they are simply necessary as part of the process of cleaning up the sourcing in this article, which is in a dire state. I'm am going to continue to uphold WP:RS and WP:MEDRS rigorously, and I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't be obstructive, but I not prepared to allow you the choice.
- I really did appreciate your removal of the preprint. I was less impressed with your announcement that you would restore it after it was published, but that will depend on what content you intend to use it to support. There are indeed two other MedRxiv refs still in our article, but I'm refraining from editing where I've applied a sanction, as I feel that would blur the boundaries of being involved on that issue. No doubt someone will eventually remove them. In the meantime, I'll try to find the time to identify the breaches of MEDRS as the next step. --RexxS (talk) 21:39, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- @FriendlyRiverOtter: Don't patronise me. I've been editing medical articles for over 12 years, so I don't appreciate your sarcastic "welcome". You obviously don't understand the meaning of WP:INVOLVED, because I'm only involved here in an administrative capacity. Take careful note of "
Incubation period
The Lauer article in Annals is tagged as unreliable. The source, Annals, is typically reliable, but their use of news reports makes me agree that the data itself could be unreliable. I see this recent article in J Inf Dis. that looks promising as a alternate source; the authors used 7000 cases from health department data which I think is as good as we'll be able to get. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32339231 Anyone see an issue with the article? it looks like it's official from 3 weeks ago MartinezMD (talk) 04:31, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- The problem with pmid:32339231 is that it's a still a single study and hence a primary source. If that's as good as we're going to get, then we ought to be saying nothing until the secondary sources analysing the literature become available. --RexxS (talk) 17:39, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- I prefer secondary sources as well, but so far I see two problems. If you're talking the WHO summary page, it is extremely weak, consisting of literally a single sentence for incubation information and offering little data. Also, I'm not super convinced that the number of days is requiring a MEDRS standard (whereas an RS standard is sufficient). The statement makes no treatment or diagnostic assertions, simply an epidemiological time frame observation. That being said, if you have a good secondary source, I welcome it. MartinezMD (talk) 22:01, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- I'm sympathetic in general to making exceptions for cases where the information is arguably not a biomedical claim. But quoting raw figures from a primary source is always problematical as well, and we do have some secondary sources :
- British Columbia Centre for Disease Control: "believed to be 2-14 days with a median of 5 days"
- National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine commenting on the Chinese data " In this study, the mean and median incubation periods were estimated to be 5.84 and 5.0 days, respectively. Patients 40 years or older had a longer incubation period and larger variance than did patients younger than 40 years. There was no statistically significant difference in incubation period based on gender. These findings suggest that different periods of quarantine may be advisable based on age. However, these results need to be confirmed through additional studies and with further stratification of incubation period results by age group."
- NHS Scotland "Many of the studies published to date are limited by small sample sizes and overrepresentation of severe cases, the incubation period for which may differ from that of mild cases. Evidence suggests an incubation period of 5-6 days with a range of 1-14 days from infection to symptoms surfacing. Lauer et al estimate that most (97%) of those who develop symptoms do so within 11.5 days of infection (95% CI, 8.2-15.6), consequently only a limited number of cases will potentially develop symptoms out-with the 14 days of self-isolation that is required following contact with a confirmed case."
- My inclination would be to summarise what the secondary sources say and only add content that can be sourced from those. Cheers --RexxS (talk) 22:32, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- That works for me. I'll put them in and make changes. MartinezMD (talk) 22:50, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- I'm sympathetic in general to making exceptions for cases where the information is arguably not a biomedical claim. But quoting raw figures from a primary source is always problematical as well, and we do have some secondary sources :
- I prefer secondary sources as well, but so far I see two problems. If you're talking the WHO summary page, it is extremely weak, consisting of literally a single sentence for incubation information and offering little data. Also, I'm not super convinced that the number of days is requiring a MEDRS standard (whereas an RS standard is sufficient). The statement makes no treatment or diagnostic assertions, simply an epidemiological time frame observation. That being said, if you have a good secondary source, I welcome it. MartinezMD (talk) 22:01, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
Primary sources
Primary sources are not considered reliable to support biomedical claims in this or any other article. The relevant guideline is WP:MEDRS which lays out the specific restrictions on sourcing. I'm making an attempt to mark primary sources supporting biomedical claims with the {{medrs}} template. It would be helpful if editors could try to find secondary sources to replace those primary sources and adjust the content accordingly. --RexxS (talk) 17:34, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- To be clear, popular news media are not reliable secondary sources for biomedical claims, correct? —DIYeditor (talk) 17:41, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- @DIYeditor: News media don't have the expertise to analyse the field and make significant judgements on sources in the way that we expect a review published in a quality peer-reviewed journal would. However, sometimes we see news media reporting on a genuine secondary source. In those cases, it's far better to find and read the actual source and then use it for the cite. That allows other editors to read the original secondary source and adjust our content if needed, because news media often miss important points in sources. I'm currently using two templates to mark poor sources:
{{medrs |reason=primary source used to support biomedical claim |sure=yes |date=May 2020}}
{{medrs |reason=newsmedia source used to support biomedical claim |sure=yes |date=May 2020}}
- It's always better to give other editors as much information about the issues you find if you don't have time to fix them yourself. --RexxS (talk) 20:54, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- @DIYeditor: News media don't have the expertise to analyse the field and make significant judgements on sources in the way that we expect a review published in a quality peer-reviewed journal would. However, sometimes we see news media reporting on a genuine secondary source. In those cases, it's far better to find and read the actual source and then use it for the cite. That allows other editors to read the original secondary source and adjust our content if needed, because news media often miss important points in sources. I'm currently using two templates to mark poor sources:
Mortality due to COVID-19
Please see discussion here regarding possible deletion of Mortality due to COVID-19:
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject COVID-19 § Mortality due to COVID-19