Girth Summit (talk | contribs) →User:AlsoWukai: clarity |
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:::...and subtracted 1 mill square kilometers from the area of Angola ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_in_Africa&diff=prev&oldid=989392486]]), blocked on Wikidata, reverted on Commons... - [[User:4ing|4ing]] ([[User talk:4ing|talk]]) 18:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC) |
:::...and subtracted 1 mill square kilometers from the area of Angola ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_in_Africa&diff=prev&oldid=989392486]]), blocked on Wikidata, reverted on Commons... - [[User:4ing|4ing]] ([[User talk:4ing|talk]]) 18:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC) |
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== Edit warring by WilliamJE |
== Edit warring by WilliamJE == |
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After [[User:WilliamJE]] edited the article for [[Mike Straka]] to remove details regarding books he had written (see [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mike_Straka&diff=prev&oldid=989004130 this edit]), I reinserted the material, adding reliable and verifiable sources about each of the books. WilliamJE has started an edit war today ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mike_Straka&diff=prev&oldid=989342442 revert one], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mike_Straka&diff=prev&oldid=989359643 revert two] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mike_Straka&diff=prev&oldid=989364296 revert three]), with the argument that this is all "book spam". WilliamJE inherently acknowledges that the material is encyclopedic and believes that there is some part of this that doesn't belong here, but refuses to comply with [[WP:PRESERVE]] and fix the problem, choosing instead to revert the edits and remove all of the content. It appears that the material is being removed out of spite to make a [[WP:POINT]]. Furthermore, WilliamJE has started to follow me to articles that I've recently edited within the previous day and that the editor had never edited before, including [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Essex_County_Country_Club&diff=prev&oldid=989272259 Essex County Country Club] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Randolph_High_School_(New_Jersey)&diff=prev&oldid=989364884 Randolph High School]. Half of WilliamJE's last dozen edits involve following me around from article to article. Any ideas? [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 16:28, 18 November 2020 (UTC) |
After [[User:WilliamJE]] edited the article for [[Mike Straka]] to remove details regarding books he had written (see [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mike_Straka&diff=prev&oldid=989004130 this edit]), I reinserted the material, adding reliable and verifiable sources about each of the books. WilliamJE has started an edit war today ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mike_Straka&diff=prev&oldid=989342442 revert one], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mike_Straka&diff=prev&oldid=989359643 revert two] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mike_Straka&diff=prev&oldid=989364296 revert three]), with the argument that this is all "book spam". WilliamJE inherently acknowledges that the material is encyclopedic and believes that there is some part of this that doesn't belong here, but refuses to comply with [[WP:PRESERVE]] and fix the problem, choosing instead to revert the edits and remove all of the content. It appears that the material is being removed out of spite to make a [[WP:POINT]]. Furthermore, WilliamJE has started to follow me to articles that I've recently edited within the previous day and that the editor had never edited before, including [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Essex_County_Country_Club&diff=prev&oldid=989272259 Essex County Country Club] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Randolph_High_School_(New_Jersey)&diff=prev&oldid=989364884 Randolph High School]. Half of WilliamJE's last dozen edits involve following me around from article to article. Any ideas? [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 16:28, 18 November 2020 (UTC) |
Revision as of 20:50, 18 November 2020
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Commons admin needed
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It looks like we had a serial election maps hoaxer active earlier this year, User:The Empire of History. See this revision of their talk page for some of what got caught earlier. Basically, their M.O. is to create hoax maps of election articles, showing incorrect results (note, the site they seem to be making these on, US Election Atlas, does use nonstandard red/blue alignment for the US major political parties, so it's not just a color inversion thing). Rather, these results are fabricated. For instance, compare File:Georgia 2016, U.S. Election Atlas.png to the correct File:Georgia Presidential Election Results 2016.svg. I've been prodding these as I've found them, but some, including the Georgia one mentioned above, have apparently found their way onto Commons. Obviously, these need deleted ASAP as hoaxes, but it's fairly late where I am, and I don't have the alertness to go through the whole Commons deletion request bit for the Commons one, as I'm not particularly familiar with the Common setup. It's possible some of these are correct, so they'll all need checking, but every single one of the ones I've looked at so far is so error-ridden that it's either a hoax, made up by the user, or just poorly done. I can't stay up all night cleaning this up, so hopefully someone else can take a look, too. Hog Farm Bacon 04:47, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
- The place to report this is Commons:Commons:Administrators' noticeboard. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:10, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
- Hog Farm, I have batch nominated the images on commons (almost 450!) for deletion, see c:Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_uploaded_by_The_Empire_of_History (scroll down to the second nomination). I did not conduct an exhaustive search, but given my experience with this particular editor (creating fictional/alt-history election maps), I have little faith that any are worth keeping. I have also blocked The Empire of History as NOTHERE since they've apparently continued playing their history games in their sandbox since I last deleted it...you can't tell from xtools, but they have made 3600 edits, and over half of those are in the deleted sandbox history. GeneralNotability (talk) 18:36, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, that appears to have caught most of them. I've been hunting down the last few survivors. They were quite ... prolific ... Hog Farm Bacon 20:55, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
- Maybe want to speedy or bulk-XFD the ones here instead of PROD? That will get it done either "faster" or "with centralized record", so we can remember to revisit in a few days and check if any got missed. Same goes for after the suite of commons files get deleted. DMacks (talk) 03:16, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, that appears to have caught most of them. I've been hunting down the last few survivors. They were quite ... prolific ... Hog Farm Bacon 20:55, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
- Hog Farm, I have batch nominated the images on commons (almost 450!) for deletion, see c:Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_uploaded_by_The_Empire_of_History (scroll down to the second nomination). I did not conduct an exhaustive search, but given my experience with this particular editor (creating fictional/alt-history election maps), I have little faith that any are worth keeping. I have also blocked The Empire of History as NOTHERE since they've apparently continued playing their history games in their sandbox since I last deleted it...you can't tell from xtools, but they have made 3600 edits, and over half of those are in the deleted sandbox history. GeneralNotability (talk) 18:36, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Belteshazzar caused controversy on the Bates method article in March and May 2020, he still continues to edit this article and the talk-page. Many of his edits are pointy or violate NPOV and are usually reverted. If you check his block log or talk-page he was blocked in May for 31 hours and for 2 weeks in June for disruptive and POV edits on the Bates method article. The same user was also reported to this admin board [1] in July.
On 6 June 2020, I complained about Belteshazzar's disruptive edits [2] which were being made on a basis of WP:DISRUPT and WP:POINT. Basically this user started to edit the Bates Method article to remove criticisms or challenge the "ineffective" statement in the lead. His purpose on Wikipedia was to dispute the claim of the Bates Method being ineffective. After he lost, to make a point he went onto articles related to the Bates method and did the complete opposite, you can see some of those edits in the diff I list above. After being blocked, now he has gone back to challenging the ineffective statement again.
Belteshazzar does not appear to have a good understanding of what the scientific method is. Now there is nothing wrong with this but at least four different users have explained to Belteshazzar why anecdotal evidence is not scientific evidence, but he continues to ignore this. Instead he relies on anecdotal evidence for the claim that the Bates method is not ineffective. His flawed reasoning behind this is that if the Bates Method is ineffective then it couldn't have improved Aldous Huxley's eyesight. There has been a debate about that on the talk-page recently "ineffective", and I explained to him not to confuse anecdotal evidence with scientific studies with controls. If you check the talk-page itself, all we see is Belteshazzar, Belteshazzar and Belteshazzar. He's basically disrupted the article and talk-page for months. You can check the archives. He's been there since March 2020 creating countless sections [3] on the talk-page which pretty much all equate to the same agenda trying to get the term "ineffective" removed from the lead. This same user has caused problems on other articles related to the Bates method including Margaret Darst Corbett, The Art of Seeing etc.
As of 8 November 2020, Belteshazzar, is still editing the Bates Method and has recently said he wants to challenge the "ineffective" statement on Wikipedia regarding the Bates method [4]. We have been here many times before with this user. I believe this is a case of WP:NOTHERE. This user has been given many warnings and received blocks etc but never changes his behavior. A comment on his last block by an admin was "Last chance block for WP:POINTy behaviour". I believe this user has violated this. As others have requested before I believe this user should be topic banned from editing the Bates method or anything related to Ophthalmology. This user is lucky because he has received so many warnings and advice from many different editors, yet he ignores everyone. I personally think an outright block might be appropriate, the user in question is not acting in good faith. We need to ask ourselves what is going on here. It's disruption plain and simple, the user is not here to build or improve the project. His editing is agenda based to remove "ineffective" from the lead on the Bates method article. Psychologist Guy (talk) 17:32, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- Please see my explanation for my post on my talk page. I don't intend to propose this myself, and I'm sure it wouldn't be implemented anyway, barring a surprising development. Belteshazzar (talk) 17:36, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- Excellent summary by PG, editer is an immense timesink, now just disruptive. Support outright block as proposed. -Roxy the inedible dog . wooF 21:43, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- I've been idly following Talk:Bates method for some time, and I'm afraid I must also agree with Psychologist Guy, and advise anyone reading this to seriously just take a scroll through it and recent archives. It is not an exaggeration to say that Belteshazzar is very near to half of all the comments written on the talk page and archive pages 21 through 23, essentially all of them pushing pro-Bates POV and trying to remove "ineffective". Leijurv (talk) 09:18, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
- Much of it was me trying to better explain reasons the Bates method might seem to work, although the improvement may not be genuine or attributable to the Bates method. The initial discussion led to such explanations being removed from the article. Interestingly, sources from 1943 and 1957 are still used to source one such reason. [5] So there is some inconsistency regarding sources. I returned to "ineffective" when I realized that there is a known mechanism by which some aspects of the Bates method might genuinely work, although no valid source directly makes this connection. Also note that others have opposed "ineffective", but quickly given up. Belteshazzar (talk) 16:11, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
- In my refined argument (which Psychologist Guy tried to link to here), I didn't bring up Huxley or any anecdotes. Psychologist Guy returned to what I previously said about that, however. Belteshazzar (talk) 00:54, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
- I've not commented on Talk:Bates method since October 21, and for a while now my edits to the article have not concerned this aspect of the subject. The current situation was triggered by a comment I made on my own talk page, intended for possible future reference if the Bates method becomes less fringe. Belteshazzar (talk) 02:56, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
- The July ANI report was made after I did something perfectly legitimate, as I explained here. Belteshazzar (talk) 06:01, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
- Here's a case where I fixed an actual pro-Bates pov: [6] Belteshazzar (talk) 21:25, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
- [7] [8] This was a minor point, but it illustrates my confusion over "pov-pushing". We currently have exactly one source which makes or even mentions that argument, so how can we say it is a "frequent criticism"? Yes, that point comes up frequently in casual discussions about the Bates method, but so does pseudomyopia, which isn't currently mentioned in the article. Belteshazzar (talk) 18:36, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
- From June 2019 to February 2020, four different established users removed "ineffective": [9] [10] [11] [12] Belteshazzar (talk) 06:15, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
- Hipal reverted my edit simply because I "need to be banned or blocked". When I earlier cleaned up the problematic section I mentioned, giving clear explanations, he treated me rather badly. Belteshazzar (talk) 04:19, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- I removed it because of the continued problems you cause, of which that is an example as is your response here, for which you need to be blocked or banned. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 17:19, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- You "removed" what? I only moved something to a more relevant section, and your revert moved it back. Belteshazzar (talk) 23:17, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- I removed it because of the continued problems you cause, of which that is an example as is your response here, for which you need to be blocked or banned. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 17:19, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- Today I flagged an updated source which now explains possible risks which are not yet mentioned in the Bates method article. While I offer this to show that I am not pov-pushing, I did not do this simply to prove that; a source which I had been checking regularly was very recently updated (it says September, but it must have only been posted within the last few days). Belteshazzar (talk) 23:17, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- Unfortunately there is no self-reflection here. If we look at Archive 21, Archive 22 and Archive 23 you have been obsessing about this article since March and you have an axe to grind. Your above edits show you are still obsessed and you still talk about it on users talk-pages [13]. Nearly all of your edits on the Bates method have been reverted. You have abused the talk-page c'mon just look at the archives! You have created many sections nit-picking at things others disagree with. It's getting to the point of being tedious. If we look at your over-all contribution you are not improving the article, nor this website in anyway. You rarely edit other articles, you always come back to disrupting the Bates method. When users are suggesting you should be topic-banned that is not unreasonable. Psychologist Guy (talk) 22:09, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- Sometimes people disagree because they misunderstand. For example, some editors seemed not to believe for a while that blur adaptation was even real. I acknowledge that I have sometimes misunderstood things also. Belteshazzar (talk) 23:08, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- And if we're going to talk about my conversations on user talk pages, here's the talk page of an optometrist who believes in the Bates method: User_talk:Peaceful07. Belteshazzar (talk) 17:14, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- Yes and that conversation proves you are a bates POV pusher. We need to bring this to a closure. An admin needs to look at this and take action. I am not further responding. I count six different users in total on the archives of the bates method and here that have requested for you to be topic banned. Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:18, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- I was fully intent on letting this go unless and until a new source emerges. You didn't need to create this thread in the first place, especially considering that the catalyst was a comment on my own talk page intended only for possible future reference if things change. Belteshazzar (talk) 19:23, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- Yes and that conversation proves you are a bates POV pusher. We need to bring this to a closure. An admin needs to look at this and take action. I am not further responding. I count six different users in total on the archives of the bates method and here that have requested for you to be topic banned. Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:18, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
Pasdecomplot
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Pasdecomplot (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Pasdecomplot has been warned multiple times over months by multiple editors about making accusations of bad faith, both at talk pages and in edit summaries.
Editors who want to edit in contentious areas should expect pushback. They should expect to have to defend every edit, to have other editors push back, to have to talk and talk and talk before making even small edits. PDC makes sweeping edits to an extremely contentious area – Tibetan Buddhism and China – and if another editor disagrees with their edits, they immediately go to accusations of bad faith, misrepresentation of sources, and hounding, both in posts and in edit summaries. I’ll note that I have only a general understanding of the subject, so I have no idea whether PDC’s edits are helpful or not. My concern is solely the unwillingness to assume good faith and focus on the edits rather than making accusations about the other editors’ motivations.
PDC now has nearly 2500 edits. They are no longer a newbie. They are ignoring our policies on assuming good faith, and they’re doing it flagrantly and unrepentantly and repeatedly. I hate to suggest they be topic banned from their clear area of highest interest, but I am at a loss, here. Personally all I want is to see them forbidden from making any accusation of bad faith of any kind against any other editor (broadly construed; that is, no referring to "bad faith edits") either on talk pages or in edit summaries.
Many editors have tried to help PDC understand this. These are just some of the more recent:
- Usedtobecool tried to explain Sept 21
- Message on PDC's talk from Cullen328, who on October 1 asks for an explanation. 4 PDC replies, including further accusations of bad faith in the reply and subsequent replies: 5
- Warning from me October 2, which included a plea for PDC to stop accusing any other editor of bad faith, noted as seen: 6
- Continuing to accuse others of bad faith edits, misrepresentation, and hounding October 19: 7 8 9 Warning about it seen and removed: 10 Warning given by Girth Summit October 21: 11
- November 8: warning seen and removed with an edit summary accusing the editor leaving the warning of acting in bad faith: 13
—valereee (talk) 19:00, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- The ANI is completely without merit as it's a coatrack of diffs crafted together with an alleged "concern" about good faith.
- Most recently, the involved admin, with a history of coordinating with an author of a blatant PA (see above), has stepped actively and aggressively into two requests for moves[14] and[15] in a topic area for which they admit (see above) to not having knowledge. The admin has previously been warned by El_C to either edit or admin pages, not both simultaneously. Then while again blending roles, the involved admin ignored a blatant PA, then mischaracterized edits as "edit waring" then doubled down to further mischaracterize the events as "disruptive editing", then tripled down to mischaracterize the complaint of the PA itself as a personal attack, then quadrupled down to bring it to ANI.
-
- Which makes the notice all the more curious since good faith is always assumed. But, PA's are not defined in policy as examples of "good faith", nor are repeated unfounded accusations of personal attacks and accusations of disruptive editing, nor are disturbing messages left by the involved admin on talk (02OCT on talk[16] then[17] then[18]. Then on another talk[19] then[20]).
-
- To detail why the ANI is especially inappropriate at this time, a blantant PA was found on a request for move (that also totally mischaracterized posting of diffs showing work by the editor responsible for moving the page without CON). The PA was deleted, per policy[21]. The author of the PA posts the same PA again, and deletes the text citing reasons the PA was deleted[22]. The reposting of blatant PA was again deleted per policy[23]. The author of the PA posts same PA for the third time[24]. The very involved admin then mischaracterizes the policy-approved deletion of PA as "edit waring"[25]. The failure to cite the blatant PA by the involved admin is made[26], and the complaint of the PA, which was deleted by the author of the PA, was posted here[27] and on the talk where it was first posted[28]. The admin further mischaracterizes quotes of PA as a personal attack from me[29] and both involved admin and author of blatant PA accuse me of disruptive editing and personal attacks on my user talk[30].
- An ANI citing "concerns" for good faith is not in any way appropriate, and especially not appropriate for these repeated unaddressed blatant PA's by another editor, nor for escalating mischaracterizations by both the involved admin and the author of the repeated blatant PA's. Pasdecomplot (talk) 14:59, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
- PDC, as I said at the article talk in question, I warned the other editor on their talk, just like I did on yours. Also as I said there, twice, I am acting only as an editor w/re that article and have not done anything administrative. —valereee (talk) 15:13, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
- PDC's response here may well also illustrate the issue you describe (which may require administrative correction), but you can't exactly blame him for not placing much trust in your warnings. I mean (if I remember the old ANI correctly) you did once upon a time block him, an exclusively mobile user, for not formatting his talk page posts correctly. For the record, that ANI was closed without finding your block inappropriate, and you conversed with him fairly in the linked discussion now, but my point is that it's not unreasonable for the editor to now think you don't have his best interests at heart (even if this isn't true), and so refuse to trust/follow your advice. For better or worse, the snarky edit summary in diff 13 is pretty much what the avg established editor would also write in such a situation (ime). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 15:55, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
- PDC, as I said at the article talk in question, I warned the other editor on their talk, just like I did on yours. Also as I said there, twice, I am acting only as an editor w/re that article and have not done anything administrative. —valereee (talk) 15:13, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
- ProcrastinatingReader, I don't blame PDC for not thinking I have their best interests at heart, either, lol. What I have at heart is our policy on assuming good faith. Really, that's all. If PDC would just stop talking about other editors and instead talk about edits (without referring to them as "bad faith edits", though), we wouldn't be here. —valereee (talk) 18:04, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)I don't think it's quite so straight forward in the abstract. Look at my ANI case above, where I was "warned" by administrators. There can be some validity in an editor feeling a warning is not coming from the right place. In such cases, it helps to have an uninvolved, totally objective admin assess the situation and issue appropriate guidance. Of course, in this case that was Girth on 21 October (who provided some excellent, objective advice). But I'm just saying, the point of a warning isn't a checkbox towards a block/ban, it should come from a position of total objectivity & trust as advice to rectify conduct, otherwise it'll be ineffective. As it relates to Pasdecomplot, as someone who saw the last two ANIs on this editor, I don't think they're intentionally trying to be disruptive (not that intent is the end-all when it's disruption). But I think they think everyone is out to get them. And to be fair, sometimes they are baited. There's obviously things that need rectifying here, but (if it's at all possible) I think it'd be nice to see that happen without permanent/long sanctions. How exactly, I don't know. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:07, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
- ProcrastinatingReader, and by Cullen at his talk, and by EI_C at both their talk and PDC's, and massive advice from UTBC at UTBC's talk. This isn't something new. This has been going on for months. The amount of time other editors have spent trying to help PDC understand what 'assume good faith' means is very large. I've literally been trying for months to avoid bringing this to ANI; I'd always prefer to deal with issues anywhere else. The point of warnings is to get someone's attention in hopes they'll take the policy behind it onboard, and to let other editors see the issue has been raised with the person before. —valereee (talk) 19:02, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
- A discussion on whether to restore this report from the archive happened at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#discussion archived unclosed. EdJohnston (talk) 20:15, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- ProcrastinatingReader, and by Cullen at his talk, and by EI_C at both their talk and PDC's, and massive advice from UTBC at UTBC's talk. This isn't something new. This has been going on for months. The amount of time other editors have spent trying to help PDC understand what 'assume good faith' means is very large. I've literally been trying for months to avoid bringing this to ANI; I'd always prefer to deal with issues anywhere else. The point of warnings is to get someone's attention in hopes they'll take the policy behind it onboard, and to let other editors see the issue has been raised with the person before. —valereee (talk) 19:02, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
- Note: PdC doubled down yesterday on the verbiage against Rigley (initial post here), despite the discussion centering around a Requested Move. Even though PdC removed the explicit mention of Rigley's name from that
Note to closer
comment, their attempt to introduce irrelevant material still stands. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 21:18, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
Suggested admin action Block proposed
- Unarchiving as this was never closed. I'd like to see some resolution here, if possible.
I'm going to suggest a 1-week block, a ban on saying anything about any other editor in edit summaries or talk posts, a ban on describing edits as "bad faith" or "misleading" or "misrepresenting sources", with blocks of increasing length for further violations. —valereee (talk) 19:38, 13 November 2020 (UTC)- 3rd one is too broad. Being unable to characterise particular edits as misleading in some way or another is a very broad range of vocabulary, which can be valid in situations. As this editor edits in niche areas, I can see that backfiring on their productivity. I'd possibly support a time-limited ban on accusing other editors of conduct issues for a while, except at ANI, automatically expiring after a month, solely in order to force the editor to discuss content not accusations of conduct in various content discussions. Hopefully that instills the habit for after the ban expires. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:51, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- I've changed this heading per advice at AN. Proposing one-month block with a six-month ban on commenting on other editors' motivations anywhere but at ANI. This has already achieved a level of consensus in this discussion which was followed by a very clear final warning here that blocks of increasing length would follow the next incident. —valereee (talk) 05:48, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support as proposer. —valereee (talk) 05:48, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support editing restriction, but I don't think a block is required at this point. My experience of interacting with PdC, and my review of their contributions, have led me to the conclusion that they themselves are here in good faith, but that they are far too quick to assume bad faith of others and to accuse people of it (or heavily imply it) in inappropriate ways such as edit summaries. PdC obviously needs a way to seek a remedy if they genuinely believe someone is acting in bad faith and have evidence to back that up, but I believe that they need to be restricted from commenting on other editors' motivations entirely in edit summaries and on article talk pages. They would be able to continue to edit, and to avoid any blocks at all, by simply focussing on content and not on contributors, as WP:NPA advises. I can get behind this being a six-month restriction, but my first choice would be that it be imposed indefinitely, with the opportunity to appeal after six months once they've shown they are willing to cut it out. GirthSummit (blether) 19:23, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support one month block and indefinite editing restriction. This "assume bad faith" behavior justified by giant walls of text has gone on far too long. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 19:34, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support one month block and indefinite editing restriction per above. The indefinite editing restriction for the reasons Girth lays out. I support the block because the problems are ongoing: Special:Diff/988636704. Warnings have not brought about the desired change. Lev¡vich 19:41, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support a time-limited restriction only, per Girth. Block seems unnecessary imv. After all, if the restriction remedies the situation, we're all good. If it doesn't, then the ban is enforced by blocks. Simple. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:41, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- To add, I generally find indefinite restrictions inappropriate. It's too hard to get them removed, far harder than showing enough need to have them instated again at all. If conduct remains a problem, ask to have them reinstated. If it doesn't, great. Look at various appeals of restrictions (here or at ArbCom), people generally turn them down because they are doing their job and conduct was rectified, so seemingly few people want to risk removing the restriction, which creates an undue excessive burden. Yet the only way you can possibly evidence that you won't do it again is by not doing it while the ban was in place, but that's rarely enough for people to agree to remove the restriction. Plus, tbh, we don't need to tilt the burden even more in the favour of who can make an eloquent speech in front of ANI, and keep banned whoever cannot. If the conduct is rectified there's no need for restrictions. If it isn't, they'll be reinstated with ease. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:26, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- Without commenting on the rest, I'm suspicious of how easy it is to restore restrictions. If valereee hadn't unarchived this thread, we wouldn't have even gotten consensus for restrictions in the first place, so getting them again (should they be needed) isn't exactly a guarantee. It may well be too hard to get restrictions removed, but I don't think re-imposing sanctions is as easy as you suggest either. — Wug·a·po·des 03:40, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm being overly optimistic. And I acknowledge you folks may know better than me what will be (in)sufficient. I was thinking that having sanctions reimposed with a diff a week after expiry of the same conduct is easier/less time consuming for editors than evaluating this convoluted puzzle spread across many pages. Regardless, I'd like to believe that 6 months of being forced to find a new way to engage will be sufficient to create a permanent change for PDC, and further sanctions won't be necessary. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 05:23, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- Without commenting on the rest, I'm suspicious of how easy it is to restore restrictions. If valereee hadn't unarchived this thread, we wouldn't have even gotten consensus for restrictions in the first place, so getting them again (should they be needed) isn't exactly a guarantee. It may well be too hard to get restrictions removed, but I don't think re-imposing sanctions is as easy as you suggest either. — Wug·a·po·des 03:40, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- PR, if they can demonstrate on noticeboards an ability to properly supply diffs on others' conduct and in a reasonably restrained manner, that would be hard evidence to lift the restrictions. Indefinite ≠ infinite. However, separate from the conduct toward other editors, I was reminded of Cullen's comment here, and I had not even come around to clean up after this addition, which another established editor took up: note the source mentions the monks were returned within 2 months, but the heading PdC added was the distorted (and vague)
Re-education camps
: this is particularly egregious given that under the prior Re-education through labor system, detainees' sentences were 1 to 3 years. The un-attributed usage of the obvious advocacy site Freetibet.org in the first Nyingchi diff, despite multiple messages heeding against both at WP:RS/N and less central venues, reeks of WP:IDHT. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 07:08, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- To add, I generally find indefinite restrictions inappropriate. It's too hard to get them removed, far harder than showing enough need to have them instated again at all. If conduct remains a problem, ask to have them reinstated. If it doesn't, great. Look at various appeals of restrictions (here or at ArbCom), people generally turn them down because they are doing their job and conduct was rectified, so seemingly few people want to risk removing the restriction, which creates an undue excessive burden. Yet the only way you can possibly evidence that you won't do it again is by not doing it while the ban was in place, but that's rarely enough for people to agree to remove the restriction. Plus, tbh, we don't need to tilt the burden even more in the favour of who can make an eloquent speech in front of ANI, and keep banned whoever cannot. If the conduct is rectified there's no need for restrictions. If it isn't, they'll be reinstated with ease. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:26, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support block and editing restriction as repeated warnings have had no effect.-- P-K3 (talk) 17:56, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
User:عمرو بن كلثوم and Syrian Kurdistan
I believe User:عمرو بن كلثوم is editing tendentiously. The Talk page of the article Syrian Kurdistan is almost exclusively a complaints page from a wide variety of editors, over the past many months, about the behaviour of this user, and evident from the discussion is an obvious POV based on denialism, to whit: the user would rather the term Syrian Kurdistan did not exist, and is convinced (against all and repeatedly offered evidence) that the phrase is a neologism produced by expansionist Kurdish nationalists this century. The user would have the world believe there was never any such thing as a Syrian part of Kurdistan (i.e. within the 20th- and 21st-century Syrian Arab Republic); and the whole thing is some sort of conspiracy cooked up since the Syrian Civil War. The user has here embarked on an attempt to gain support for their POV here: Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#PhD_candidate_as_a_reliable_source_for_a_denial_of_Syrian_Kurdistan_against_the_views_of_multiple_professors_stating_otherwise? and when another user sought assistance here: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Is_a_book_by_the_PhD_candidate_Mustafa_Hamza_a_reliable_source_for_a_denial_of_a_Syrian_Kurdistan? and will not take no for an answer. I suspect administrator action of some kind is needful. GPinkerton (talk) 01:54, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- This complaint is really interesting. At the RSN, user Sixula suggested that it was not the right place for this debate so I quit following that page, but a few minutes ago I was notified of this complaint here. I revisited the NOPV noticeboard to find that user Pinkerton jumped out of nowhere and made conclusions for everybody, and then ran to report me here and accusing me of refusing to compromise. Obviously, they did not bother to visit the Syrian Kurdistan Talk page to see what's going on. There has been a discussion going on for days, we have provided enough evidence, including the all-important Treaty of Sevres map (for non-experts, that post-WWI treaty in 1920 shaped all Kurdish statehood claims) and a number of academic books that talk about Kurdistan, but no "Syrian kurdistan". We also provided sources showing the initial use of this term. For example, this report by the highly-regarded International Crisis Group reads:
The PYD assumed de facto governing authority, running a transitional administration in what it, and Kurds in general, call Rojava (Western Kurdistan), including three noncontiguous enclaves: Afrin, Kobani (Ayn al-Arab) and Cezire (al-Jazeera region in Hassakah province).
- This issue is really too long to explain here, so I would rather have people visit the Talk page mentioned above. In brief, two or three users are trying to show this as an entity that has long existed and three other users (at least) do not agree with that, and argue that this term was produced by Kurdish nationalists during the Syrian Civil War. We are not arguing about the presence of a Kurdistan or Kurds in Syria. Finally, this is a content dispute, and I have not broken any rules. Actually, admin intervention in that page would really be welcome. May be at least provide protection for now. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 02:40, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- Above, the user has illustrated succinctly the problem with their WP:IDONTLIKEIT and WP:IDHT attitude and refusal to accept reality. Below, one can see a long list of sources that very much do talk about Syrian Kurdistan, explicitly, and by name. As a synonym for Western Kurdistan it can be found in geographical research before the First World War. The claim of the all-importance of the Treaty of Sevres is a lie ignorant of history and wilfully oblivious to the sources editors may peruse below. This user's insistence on claiming that
a number of academic books that talk about Kurdistan, but no "Syrian kurdistan"
is exactly the kind of false narrative they have been bludgeoning people with for months (years?). Any look at any of the works will show that the editor's POV is divorced from the real world, and is apparently vocally, partisan as regards the al-Assad regime and its opponents. Some sort of admonition is surely required.- In the Dispersion. World Zionist Organization, Organization Department, Research Section. 1962.
This book tells the tale od the Kurdish Jews who lived in the one hundred and nintey towns in what is now Iraqi, Persian, Turkish and Syrian Kurdistan
- Ghassemlou, Abdul Rahman (1965). Kurdistan and the Kurds. Publishing House of the Czechoslovak Academy of Sciences.
(i.e. the present-day Turkish, Iraqi and Syria Kurdistan)
- Chaliand, Gérard, ed. (1993) [1978]. Les Kurdes et le Kurdistan [A People Without a Country: The Kurds and Kurdistan]. Translated by Pallis, Michael. London: Zed Books. ISBN 978-1-85649-194-5.
Are these three regions - Kurd-Dagh, Ain-Arab, and Northern Jezireh - part of Kurdistan? Do they form a Syrian Kurdistan, or are they merely region of Syria which happen to be populated with Kurds? ... Syrian Kurdistan has thus become a broken up territory and we would do better to talk about the Kurdish regions of Syria. What matters is that these people are being denied their legitimate right to have their own national and cultural identity.
- Gotlieb, Yosef (1982). Self-determination in the Middle East. Praeger. ISBN 978-0-03-062408-7.
While the Kurds in Turkish, Soviet, Syrian, and Persian Kurdistan were held in place with and iron fist, the Iraqi Kurds fought virtually alone throughout the 1960s.
- Bruinessen, Martin Van (1992). Agha, Shaikh, and State: The Social and Political Structures of Kurdistan. London: Zed Books. ISBN 978-1-85649-018-4.
The plains of Iraqi and Syrian Kurdistan are the granaries of Iraq and Syria, respectively.
- Izady, Mehrdad R. (1992). The Kurds: A Concise Handbook. Taylor & Francis. ISBN 978-0-8448-1727-9.
All of Syrian Kurdistan, half of central Kurdistan in Iraq, and about 15% of western Kurdistan is located in this warm zone. It contains the cities of Diyarbakir, Siirt, Mardin, Urfa, Qamishli, Afrin, Sanjar, Sulaymania, Arbil, Qasri Shirin, Ilam, Gelan, and Pahla.
- Kreyenbroek, Philip G.; Allison, Christine (1996). Kurdish Culture and Identity. London: Zed Books. ISBN 978-1-85649-329-1.
- Bruinessen, Martin van (1978). Agha, Shaikh and State: On the Social and Political Organization of Kurdistan. University of Utrecht.
I shall refer to these parts as Turkish, Persian, Iraqi, and Syrian Kurdistan. ... Most sources agree that there are approximately half a million Kurds in Syria.
- Mirawdeli, Kamal M. (1993). Kurdistan: Toward a Cultural-historical Definition. Badlisy Center for Kurdish Studies.
Turkish Kurdistan, an Iraqi Kurdistan, an Iranian Kurdistan, and a Syrian Kurdistan
- Bulloch, John; Morris, Harvey (1992). No Friends But the Mountains: The Tragic History of the Kurds. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-508075-9.
The British and the French made it clear from the outset that they were unwilling to surrencder those parts of Iraqi and Syrian Kurdistan which fell under their control, and that an independent Kurdistan, if such an entity were to be created, would have to be in what was still Turkish territory.
- Jaff, Akram (1993). Economic Development in Kurdistan. Badlisy Center for Kurdish Studies.
- Gotlieb, Yosef (1995). Development, Environment, and Global Dysfunction: Toward Sustainable Recovery. Delray Beach, FL: St Lucie Press. ISBN 978-1-57444-012-6.
The situation in Turkish Kurdistan is consistent with that of Iranian, Iraqi, and Syrian Kurdistan.
- Meho, Lokman I., ed. (1997). The Kurds and Kurdistan: A Selective and Annotated Bibliography. Westport, CN and London: Greewood Press. ISBN 978-0-313-30397-5.
The information the author gets concerning Syrian Kurdistan is abased on results from field research carried out in 1988 and 1990.
- Berberoglu, Berch (1999). Turmoil in the Middle East: Imperialism, War, and Political Instability. SUNY Press. ISBN 978-0-7914-4412-2.
Then, in the 1920s, the Bedirkhan brothers introduced the Latin alphabet, which became standard in Turkish and Syrian Kurdistan.
- In the Dispersion. World Zionist Organization, Organization Department, Research Section. 1962.
- GPinkerton (talk) 02:59, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- Above, the user has illustrated succinctly the problem with their WP:IDONTLIKEIT and WP:IDHT attitude and refusal to accept reality. Below, one can see a long list of sources that very much do talk about Syrian Kurdistan, explicitly, and by name. As a synonym for Western Kurdistan it can be found in geographical research before the First World War. The claim of the all-importance of the Treaty of Sevres is a lie ignorant of history and wilfully oblivious to the sources editors may peruse below. This user's insistence on claiming that
- We are debating a specific term. Can you provide the quotes showing that, instead of showing "Kurdistan" or Kurds in Syria, etc.? One more thing, we are about to reach consensus on the Syrian Kurdistan page. This shows that your claim of me refusing to compromise is false. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 03:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- Check out this discussion out of many going on on that Talk page. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 03:41, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- No, look at the sources yourself. Yours is the only voice on your side of this "debate". GPinkerton (talk) 03:50, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- Check out this discussion out of many going on on that Talk page. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 03:41, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- We are debating a specific term. Can you provide the quotes showing that, instead of showing "Kurdistan" or Kurds in Syria, etc.? One more thing, we are about to reach consensus on the Syrian Kurdistan page. This shows that your claim of me refusing to compromise is false. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 03:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- Ha ha ha. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 08:05, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
Comment Actually me and other users also participated in the debate taking the same position as Amr. No on need to look at the sources themselves as the one who claims need to prove, so quotes and pages numbers should be presented. Finally, you can have tens of sources to support you but there are tens of them that support the other side and NPOV requires you not to ignore that. This complain is uncalled for and an attempt to force a measure from above to give one side of a long debate what they want! The users who are against Amr acts exactly like him, so if he is wrong, so are they. I am calling for an rfc to solve this.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 03:57, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Attar-Aram syria: All of what you're saying is not at all relevant. This is only about Amr's repeated attempt to prove the term "Syrian Kurdistan" does not exist or is a recent coinage, whereas in the real world it is a coinage many, many decades old. This is tendentiousness. GPinkerton (talk) 05:32, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- Im telling you Im an active part of the debate and you are deciding for me that I am not? Seriously? You are now part of this content dispute, so go to the article's talk page.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 05:36, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
CommentThis has nothing to do with Amr. This is all Konli17's fault. That page has been quiet for months and then all of a sudden he comes back after a long break from editing and starts his POV pushing again. He changes Southern and eastern Turkey into Turkish Kurdistan, tries renaming every city in Northeastern Syria to its Kurdish name, constantly starts edit wars with other users, and manipulates sources to get them what they want him to say. Konli17 is the user that should be blocked because he’s not WP:HTBAE and is just here to push his agenda. You should really see his other edits before jumping to conclusions that it’s Amr's fault. Thepharoah17 (talk) 04:02, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Thepharoah17: if you want to make a report about an unrelated matter you need to do it elsewhere. GPinkerton (talk) 05:32, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- OK, per your request GPinkerton, I'll call on other people to weigh in on this. @Supreme Deliciousness:@HistoryofIran:@Al Ameer son:. Thanks, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 04:07, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with Thepharoah17, The page was stable until Konli17 returned and pushed his pov points. Shadow4dark (talk) 06:44, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- See an example here (out of tens or hundreds) for yourselves how user konli17 changes the meanings by simple tweaking and removal of sensitive words to fake/change content and removing sensitive words (such as 'at most', 'no more than') or changing 'encourage' to 'allow', 'many' to 'some', etc. Look at the long list of reverts and edit-warring in their edit history. Actually, they were blocked back in June for edit-warring. That is the user who needs to be disciplined here. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 04:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- This argumentation is obfuscation and unconvincing whataboutery. GPinkerton (talk) 05:26, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- Since you have obviously decided to take sides in the dispute at hand, bring on your evidence in the form of quotes from the links above you copied from user paradise chronicle! Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 05:30, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- @عمرو بن كلثوم: It's more than obvious you are unwilling to read. None of these sources were copy pasted from anywhere. I just did the most basic Goggle Books search, and provided you with hyperlinks so you can easily verify that each one discusses "Syrian Kurdistan". How many times? The quote is the same in every book listed: "Syrian Kurdistan"! GPinkerton (talk) 05:35, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- My friend, you are the one making claims here. Bring me your evidence (e.g. quotes). It's not my role to prove your point, it's yours. Syrian + Kurdistan does not equal "Syrian Kurdistan". Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 05:41, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- One more thing, it seems you are the one refusing to read since you failed to see in the Talk page in question how many editors were on each side. Regardless of the opinions presented here, you claimed that I am the ONLY one representing this side of the story. Now you are attacking the other editor sharing my opinion here. You are trying hard to push your POV, same as you did as the NPOV noticeboard, ironic. Obviously, you are not qualified to judge or point at others. And let's keep this professional without personal attacks like you did above accusing me of supporting Assad regime (with no evidence whatsoever)! And by the way, on this note the Kurdish Democratic Union Party (who declared Syrian Kurdistan) are allies of the Assad regime and there is plenty of evidence that I will keep for another time. So, better do your homework before throwing accusation around. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 06:01, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- Rank hypocrisy. I've expanded with quotes since you're too unwilling to lift a finger to pull the wool from your own eyes and read a book. GPinkerton (talk) 07:59, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- One more thing, it seems you are the one refusing to read since you failed to see in the Talk page in question how many editors were on each side. Regardless of the opinions presented here, you claimed that I am the ONLY one representing this side of the story. Now you are attacking the other editor sharing my opinion here. You are trying hard to push your POV, same as you did as the NPOV noticeboard, ironic. Obviously, you are not qualified to judge or point at others. And let's keep this professional without personal attacks like you did above accusing me of supporting Assad regime (with no evidence whatsoever)! And by the way, on this note the Kurdish Democratic Union Party (who declared Syrian Kurdistan) are allies of the Assad regime and there is plenty of evidence that I will keep for another time. So, better do your homework before throwing accusation around. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 06:01, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- My friend, you are the one making claims here. Bring me your evidence (e.g. quotes). It's not my role to prove your point, it's yours. Syrian + Kurdistan does not equal "Syrian Kurdistan". Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 05:41, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- @عمرو بن كلثوم: It's more than obvious you are unwilling to read. None of these sources were copy pasted from anywhere. I just did the most basic Goggle Books search, and provided you with hyperlinks so you can easily verify that each one discusses "Syrian Kurdistan". How many times? The quote is the same in every book listed: "Syrian Kurdistan"! GPinkerton (talk) 05:35, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- Since you have obviously decided to take sides in the dispute at hand, bring on your evidence in the form of quotes from the links above you copied from user paradise chronicle! Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 05:30, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
Comment: There is nothing wrong with Amr ibn Kulthoums edits. "Syrian Kurdistan" is a lie and a fraud, there are editor at that page that are pushing kurdish nationalist propaganda lies and attempting to rewrite history. We should thank Amr ibn Kulthoum for standing up to the truth. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 05:59, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- More denialism. Just look at the sources! "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", "Syrian Kurdistan", all the way down! Your claim it is a lie and fruad is absurd. GPinkerton (talk) 07:29, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- I don't know who is in denial here despite all the evidence. For the third time, I am asking you to provide actual quotes (SENTENCES) saying "Syrian Kurdistan" from before 2011. Good luck with that! Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 07:59, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- Can you read? Or do you only spew? Scroll up. Read. اقرأ GPinkerton (talk) 08:03, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- Are you going to stop the personal attacks? What does that prove? You are always going to find some random authors (look at the author names) claiming things and naming things as they please. One of them is saying "I shall refer to these parts as Turkish, Persian, Iraqi, and Syrian Kurdistan". The question is, is any of that reputable? Do you have an international map showing this, or do you have a respected paper/media outlet, international organization showing this from before 2011? Since you pick up languages so quickly, I'll challenge your French, why don't you read this article to update your history? The bottom line you are accusing me of pushing my POV but you are doing a lot worse. Cheers my friend. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 08:18, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- Oh yeah sure. Read an article that has little to do with the topic at hand and that will convince me that all these respected academic sources are somehow worthless. What planet is this editor living on? On earth, Syrian Kurdistan is a thing. The idea the idea it didn't exist before 2011 is as laughable as the editor's understanding of epistemology. GPinkerton (talk) 08:31, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- Are you going to stop the personal attacks? What does that prove? You are always going to find some random authors (look at the author names) claiming things and naming things as they please. One of them is saying "I shall refer to these parts as Turkish, Persian, Iraqi, and Syrian Kurdistan". The question is, is any of that reputable? Do you have an international map showing this, or do you have a respected paper/media outlet, international organization showing this from before 2011? Since you pick up languages so quickly, I'll challenge your French, why don't you read this article to update your history? The bottom line you are accusing me of pushing my POV but you are doing a lot worse. Cheers my friend. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 08:18, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- WP believes in sourced content and two sides to the story. More personal attacks. I don't think I need to respond to that. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 09:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- Ah yes the two sides of the story: "Syrian Kurdistan has never been uttered before 2011" (fairyland, POV) vs "Evidence for the existence of the term long before عمرو بن كلثوم would evidently prefer." (Earth, NPOV). Somehow I think including the highly idiosyncratic and patently wrong POV you are pushing without a shred of evidence should be given short shrift in consideration of WP:DUE. How much credence can we give these uncited illusions? GPinkerton (talk) 09:23, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- See also this User_talk:Thepharoah17#تحياتي Canvassing. GPinkerton (talk) 08:52, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- After your old argument of my one-person opinion failed, you are using a new tactic. How is this canvassing? Look at the user contributions! This user is very moderate, and not involved in any edit-warring. They participate in the discussion very positively. Check out for yourself! Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 09:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'd like to thank GPinkerton for opening this debate and I hope an admin would step in. As the one who filed the first two discussions about Syria Kurdistan, I'd like to add that there were already numerous high quality academic sources for a Syrian Kurdistan even before GPinkerton brought his sources. Amr Ibn will very probably not abide by academic sources has even removed[ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Syrian_Kurdistan&diff=988047662&oldid=988045551&diffmode=source updated and new academic sources] before. To clarify: I have added high quality academic sources for a Syrian Kurdistan with no adaptions to the text, and Amr Ibn removed the sources. Amr Ibn doesn't seems to not like the fact that Kurds live in Syria and sees the Kurdish liberators from ISIS as occupiers. Other times he claimed that they are occupiers after they captured a town from ISIS is here, here. There are others as well. It would be similar if we'd portray the Greek or French Resistance fighting against NAZI Germany as occupiers of territory in France or Greece. I think this is a tough POV, as the vast majority of the media and probably all of the reliable academic sources view the areas liberated by from ISIS as liberated and not occupied. I seriously don't know, how this editor came through with this denialism of Syrian Kurdistan for so long with such an edit history.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 18:30, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- Well, look who's speaking! An edit-warrior recently banned and who refused to abide by previous arbitration result by user Nightenbelle on a different page. Back to the page in question, we were reached a consensus before PC jumped in and started messing things up again. This prompted user Applodion, an editor on PC side of the story to remove part of PC's controversial edit there. Furthermore, user Sixula just chipped in and suggested an rfc. As a reminder, Sixula was helping with the NPOV case before user GPinkerton imposed themselves and jumped to conclusions. Again, I invite Admins to visit the Syrian Kurdistan page and Talk page (and other pages if they wish) to judge for themselves and see who the disruptive editor/s is/are. Thanks, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 23:07, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
- And, ISIS has nothing to do with this. You are basically saying "you can either be with ISIS or PYD/YPG Kurdish militia". Well, I don't want to be with either of those. This is not focus of this discussion or any other discussion I am involved in. We have a content dispute about the origin and adoption of the name Syrian/Western Kurdistan. Here is another academic reference saying PYD created the name rojava (West Kurdistan) (PYD invented rojava. P276 last paragraph).
In the summer of 2012, the PYD took control of some towns in northern Syria which are predominantly Kurdish-inhabited. Over the following three years, the party expanded its territory and established a structure of autonomous government and associated institutions which it calls “Rojava” (west Kurdistan).
Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 23:36, 11 November 2020 (UTC)- Two of the editors who deny an existence of Syrian Kurdistan, user Amr Ibn and user Supreme Deliciousness wanted to move the page Syrian Kurdistan (Today called AANES) to Kurdish occupied regions in Syria in a move discussion in 2015.. Wanting to call Kobane Kurdish occupied in the midst of a siege of Kobane by ISIS... This might give you another insight into the mindset of the two editors. The edits of Amr Ibn are clearly tendentious and should have been seriously questioned by admins since years. For that an admin comes into the dispute.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 02:32, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
- And, ISIS has nothing to do with this. You are basically saying "you can either be with ISIS or PYD/YPG Kurdish militia". Well, I don't want to be with either of those. This is not focus of this discussion or any other discussion I am involved in. We have a content dispute about the origin and adoption of the name Syrian/Western Kurdistan. Here is another academic reference saying PYD created the name rojava (West Kurdistan) (PYD invented rojava. P276 last paragraph).
- Well, look who's speaking! An edit-warrior recently banned and who refused to abide by previous arbitration result by user Nightenbelle on a different page. Back to the page in question, we were reached a consensus before PC jumped in and started messing things up again. This prompted user Applodion, an editor on PC side of the story to remove part of PC's controversial edit there. Furthermore, user Sixula just chipped in and suggested an rfc. As a reminder, Sixula was helping with the NPOV case before user GPinkerton imposed themselves and jumped to conclusions. Again, I invite Admins to visit the Syrian Kurdistan page and Talk page (and other pages if they wish) to judge for themselves and see who the disruptive editor/s is/are. Thanks, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 23:07, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
Why should you support either ISIS or the YPG? The YPG-linked PKK and ISIS are both classified as terrorist organizations by the United States and the European Union. Is one really different from the other? Thepharoah17 (talk) 07:11, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
- One doesn't have to support any of the two, but one can try to portray commonsense=vast majority of the academic views or an ISIL/Turkey POV which as to me, is not supported in any reliable source. The YPG is supported by the Global Coalition against ISIS consisting of 83 countries and NOT viewed as a terrorist organization by any country other than Turkey which literally imprisons academics for demanding peace.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 18:55, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
- As Sixula told you on the NPOV page, "WP:COMMONSENSE is not viewed as a concrete argument, more as a "I believe my edit was common sense" but it is not something which you can repeat over and over, because if there is a lot of opposition clearly it isn't viewed as common sense." Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 22:40, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
- Please ping me when discussing things I've said on a separate page, I like to see what is being said about both me and my comments. Thanks, SixulaTalk 23:44, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry Sixula, that was an oversight on my part. Thanks for your input. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 01:40, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- There is currently an RfC about Syrian Kurdistan going on at the Syrian Kurdistan article talk page. Amr Ibn wants to have it understood that if a source (Kurdish or/and Academic non-Kurdish) mention Syrian Kurdistan and/or Kurds in Syria or depicts a map with a Syrian part of Kurdistan it signifies that there exists no Syrian Kurdistan and therefore is an invention by Kurds. See here the diff of such an argument. There he refers to the sources presented by me and others. The ones added by me mention Syrian Kurdistan and/or depict a Syrian part of Kurdistan.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 13:39, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry Sixula, that was an oversight on my part. Thanks for your input. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 01:40, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- Please ping me when discussing things I've said on a separate page, I like to see what is being said about both me and my comments. Thanks, SixulaTalk 23:44, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
- As Sixula told you on the NPOV page, "WP:COMMONSENSE is not viewed as a concrete argument, more as a "I believe my edit was common sense" but it is not something which you can repeat over and over, because if there is a lot of opposition clearly it isn't viewed as common sense." Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 22:40, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
Proposed action
Editors opposing the unqualified use of the term "Syrian Kurdistan" need to be warned in some way to drop it. The phrase is not just "a term used" or "by some", and neither is it a conspiracy. Failing that, the relentless POV-pushing needs to be quelled in some other way. GPinkerton (talk) 09:20, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
Could use a second pair of eyes at 8chan
There are some IP editors making some legal threats regarding the inclusion of a link to the 8chan website on the page about 8chan. I can see their argument that we shouldn't include the external link, but an uninvolved admin to help out with the edit war and legal threats would be appreciated. GorillaWarfare (talk) 15:14, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
I did not make a legal threat; I removed a link to Child Pornography from Wikipedia that violates US Law and Wikipedia Policy. I was trying to get you to understand the situation and defer to legal staff at Wikipedia to make a determination. Wikipedia should not be linking to Child Pornography Period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.10.104 (talk) 16:29, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
Wikipedia is also creating a liability for people such as myself who have used Wikipedia in good faith and INADVERTANTLY (and because of Wikipedia) landed on a link distributing Child Pornography. This is an extremely serious issue and concern. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.10.104 (talk) 16:44, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
Just noting here that 71.203.10.104 has opened a discussion at WP:DRN#8chan. GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:32, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- That discussion has now been closed under the reasoning of WP:NLT and because this particular discussion is also taking place here at WP:HAPPYPLACE.--WaltCip-(talk) 19:09, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
For now, I think we should just leave that link out until we reach a consensus on the matter. No harm can come of that. Drmies (talk) 16:56, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- Second that as well. RickinBaltimore (talk) 18:35, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- None of us are lawyers (and those who are are not on the job). Pending a potential WP:OFFICE action (they might be interested in the subject), I don't think the legal argument is a good one. That being said, a link to 8chan doesn't provide any value whatsoever. -- Luk talk 00:13, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- Indeed. We're not lawyers, but it's well within our capabilities to decide not to link to a site where we may inadvertently direct our readers to such content. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:31, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
Despite denying they are making legal threats above, I can't see how their latest comment saying "A link to Child Pornography has the unwitting effect of making Wikipedia Editors, Users, and Administrators Law Breakers. Law Breakers in the worst sense because a single Cached image from an unintentional viewing of Child Pornography meets the standard for prosecution." is anything but. I agree that the link probably ought to be omitted from the article, but the WP:NLT need to stop. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:28, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- I highly doubt that anyone who wants to go to 8chan, out of curiosity or whatever, needs a link from us to do so. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
I don't think that linking to a site that ALSO hosts child pornography (or copyvio material, or whatever illegal stuff) EQUALS 'linking to child pornography'. That being said, IMHO this site would qualify for wholesale blacklisting because there is material on the site that we should not be linking to (and we should do our utmost best to make sure that it does not get linked), but a whitelist rule should be instated to a 'neutral landing page'. Although on a different level, we can link to sci-hub, we cannot link to a lot of the material hosted on sci-hub, thus the website is blacklisted, the root is whitelisted. For that, I think the IP was wrong here, as is removal of the root link. --Dirk Beetstra T C 16:47, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
I fail to see how this user is making legal threats. They are pointing out (correctly) that merely visiting a site like that can cache illegal images to one's device and thus meet the threshold for being prosecuted in the US. It's a no-brainer to omit a link to this site from Wikipedia. --Laser brain (talk) 03:37, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- Laser brain, their latest comment (linked above by GW) was probably okay until they ended with I was obligated to report this matter via the process established by the US DOJ and I copied the Wikimedia Foundation as a courtesy. Up until then they'd been on the right side of the line, IMO. —valereee (talk) 17:47, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
User:ჯეო
On 2 June 2019, ჯეო was indefinitely blocked (not by me) on the Commons for repeated copyright violations. After a series of unresponsive/IDHT unblock requests, I removed talk page access there. Since that time, ჯეო has made numerous comments on my talk page here on en.wiki relating to that issue ([31][32] [33][34][35]), including what now appears to be monthly (22 September 2020, 13 October 2020, 13 November 2020.) The Commons issues have been clearly explained to them there (their talk page access was even conditionally restored in September, which they promptly violated). ჯეო has also been emailing me; I've asked them to desist in response. Although the content is banal, the inappropriate venue; the IDHT regarding the issues and venue; the failure to honour requests to stop; and especially the frequency, which now appears monthly (and is not limited to en.wiki, e.g., [36][37][38]), cause me to consider this as having moved beyond inappropriate and into harassment--whatever its motivation. I might suggest an interaction ban, but am open to any other remedy/sanction that would result in ჯეო's desistance. Эlcobbola talk 22:12, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- Let's do this:
- I'll block them from your talk page. Done
- You turn off notifications from them in your preferences.
- If you haven't sent them email yet: Don't! And turn off email from them in your preferences as well.
- If you have sent them email before: we can't prevent them directly emailing you, but if they keep doing it, you should be able to forward the email to someone with authority at WMF (not 100% sure how it works, hopefully won't need to research) and they will likely be WMF banned.
- I make it clear to them that if they contact you anymore about a Commons-related issue, they will be blocked indef from en.wiki as well. Hopefully that will be sufficient deterrent.
- @ჯეო: Leave. Elcobbola. Alone. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:24, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- I should add that we can't do anything about pestering you on other projects. You'd have to either talk to admins there, or try to get their account globally locked. @ჯეო:, is this what you want to happen? If not, then stop it. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:29, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Floquenbeam: I just wanted to get unblocked on Commons, because I think I can start work and I can help this project, I was trying to explain it--ჯეო4WIKI (talk) 18:52, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- @ჯეო: You won't be able to get assistance from any of us here on English Wikipedia. And ANI is not the place to do it. Sorry. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 03:27, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
Better policy about self promotion
We have come across a few editors over the years that are from other projects claiming they were asked to add content here as there job. Latest example was by User talk:Thehumantwig01 from Wikitongues who said I am an intern and it's my job to try to add these videos on as many pages..... Wondering if we should nip this type of stuff in the butt before it becomes even more common...with a better policy then we currently have. As in one geared to banning a site that does this type of actions related to paid editing to promote their own site.--Moxy 🍁 13:39, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not sure ANI is the best place to post this, but I agree. Squeeps10 Talk to meMy edits 18:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
Thehumantwig01, can you explain a little more about this internship? Is there someone at Wikitongues coordinating the intern efforts that maybe we could discuss this with? I believe you're working in good faith, but we work by WP:CONSENSUS here, and if other editors are disagreeing with you about whether a language video belongs in articles that aren't about that language, you'll have to accept that or risk not being allowed to edit here. —valereee (talk) 14:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry, Wikipedia logged me out so I didn't see these messages sooner. I am an unpaid volunteer intern with Wikitongues and I have been adding the videos of language speakers that they collect onto language pages and pages that I believe are related (such as adding language videos to the "language" portion of Wikipedia pages about people who speak the language or countries who have that language declared as an official language). If other users have an issue with me posting the video on non-language pages, I will stop. My issue was that very few people had issues until one user came and reverted 46 of my edits that nobody had messaged me about or had any issues with, which I didn't think was a "consensus" thing, and so I was trying to explain my case to him. I will stop posting them on language pages. As for adding Wikitongues' name for credit on the video, I wasn't doing that to try to like promote them or use Wikipedia as a way to raise money or anything for them, but in the videos I had seen on Wikipedia before beginning editing, the captions always cited the source they had gotten the video from, so that's what I did too. If I restrict the videos to only language pages from here on, can I continue editing? Thanks! Jessica Britt (talk) 21:50, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- Thehumantwig01, thanks for responding. IMO posting high-quality language videos to language pages is fine, although some videos may be less appropriate. I noticed one objection was to a video by a non-native speaker, another was to a video in which the multilingual speaker switched into English.
- I personally am not sure I agree with Woodroar that this is necessarily a COI issue; that probably needs further discussion, possibly at WP:COIN instead of here. If it is, that doesn't mean you can't continue to do this work, only that instead of directly editing articles, you'd make edit requests on talk pages to get the videos added by another editor. It's an extra step, but the upside is that if that editor makes the edit, that shows at least one other editor thinks the addition is an improvement.
- I also disagree that linking Wikitongues in captions is necessarily problematic. That would be something to get consensus on at articles; what I'd suggest is that if you add it in an article and other editors object, you accept that for that article, consensus is against you. If as time goes on you discover that you're getting pushback on it pretty much every time, I'd accept that as a general consensus. —valereee (talk) 16:14, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- But we're not talking about an intern with the Associated Press replacing citation needed tags with sources, something that's questionable COI-wise but almost definitely good for the project. Wikitongues has never been vetted by the community. It's not listed at WP:RSP, has never been discussed at WP:RSN, and doesn't appear to be widely cited by reliable sources. Plus their licenses may not be compatible with ours. I've seen plenty of artists and photographers blocked for spamming their content in articles, so we really shouldn't have different rules for non-profits. There really needs to be community buy-in for editing like this, at COIN—as you mentioned—and RSN, but possibly other noticeboards/projects depending on the circumstances. Woodroar (talk) 18:36, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with Woodroar this is basically an RS-issue. I have commented on @Thehumantwig01's talk page on 12 Nov 2020:
The addition of Wikitongues videos should be restricted to the page about the language featured in the video, and with maximal oversight with regards to its illustrative value. There are cases where speakers are non-native speakers, or native semi-speakers; further, there are many videos which contain introductory portions in other languages (usually the dominant standard language of the region), which is misleading for the casual listener. Don't leave this oversight to others. If you are not in the position to judge whether a video portrays the featured language in an authentic and illustrative manner, don't add it. Per default, Wikitongues is not a WP:reliable source.
Given that at least four videos were removed because of such issues, I agree with the procedure suggested by Valereee above (edit requests on talk pages), as long as Wikitongues has not been community-vetted on WP:RSN. –Austronesier (talk) 10:39, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with Woodroar this is basically an RS-issue. I have commented on @Thehumantwig01's talk page on 12 Nov 2020:
- But we're not talking about an intern with the Associated Press replacing citation needed tags with sources, something that's questionable COI-wise but almost definitely good for the project. Wikitongues has never been vetted by the community. It's not listed at WP:RSP, has never been discussed at WP:RSN, and doesn't appear to be widely cited by reliable sources. Plus their licenses may not be compatible with ours. I've seen plenty of artists and photographers blocked for spamming their content in articles, so we really shouldn't have different rules for non-profits. There really needs to be community buy-in for editing like this, at COIN—as you mentioned—and RSN, but possibly other noticeboards/projects depending on the circumstances. Woodroar (talk) 18:36, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- Interns are considered employees for the purposes of WP:PAID. There is currently no disclosure meeting the requirements. I also see no encyclopedic reason for adding the text "for Wikitongues" to the caption of all added videos (see MOS:CREDITS). That's just spam, and I'm removing the "for Wikitongues" part from the captions. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 23:15, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
Debresser
Recently, my WP:BOLD edit on Template:Jews and Judaism ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) was reverted with no reason provided by a long-time edit-warrior with long history of blocks Debresser (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). After edit-warring, I explained my edit on the talk page and asked him to self-revert. In response, he called me a liar, didn't undone his revert, and still demands that I explain my edit, without himself explaining why he's reverting it. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 17:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Triggerhippie4: Please reread the diff you liked to, where you accused Debresser of calling you a liar. The first sentence of that is an explanation for the revert. —C.Fred (talk) 17:23, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- An explanation is when someone says which links should not be removed and why. He didn't do that and he calls me a liar later in the diff I provided: "Oh, and you are a liar as well". --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 17:27, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Triggerhippie4: I disagree. Debresser did explain, although they would be better advised to engage in expanded discussion at the template talk page than to edit war. —C.Fred (talk) 17:34, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- An explanation is when someone says which links should not be removed and why. He didn't do that and he calls me a liar later in the diff I provided: "Oh, and you are a liar as well". --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 17:27, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- This appears to have a content dispute at its heart, with the only behavioural issues being that Triggerhippie4 should not have re-reverted, and Debresser should not have used the word "liar". I don't believe that either of those is at the level where admin action is warranted, so why not just discuss this on the template talk page? Phil Bridger (talk) 18:24, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- This is clearly a content dispute and is being discussed on the template talk page. Debresser replied to Triggerhippie4's inquiries a full hour before this complaint was initiated. Debresser characterized Triggerhippie4's calling attention to their block log as "poisoning the well", and they were right, it was an unnecessary ad hominem. Debresser responding in kind is really not actionable. Everyone here needs to remember that assume good faith is a policy. Nothing for admins to do here. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:36, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Phil Bridger and Ivanvector: This isn't a content dispute because Debresser doesn't dispute the content. In his reply on the talk page he admit that he has no arguments against the substance of my edits. He then ask me to explain minor, obvious part of my edit, but he never himself explained why it shouldn't be made. He could restore that part only, but he just revert everything against WP:GOODFAITH and then making up excuses why he did that. It does not help improving Wikipedia. I'm pointing out his block history because this is a continuation of his disruptive behavior of WP:OWN and edit-warring. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 23:06, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
I completely agree with Phil Bridger that Triggerhippie4 should have discussed and not re-reverted. I also agree with Ivanvector that Triggerhippie4 was unnecessarily poisoning the well. I would also like to point out that Triggerhippie4's edit summary "The last time this template was discussed, it was me who made it what it is today without objection or participation."[49] IMHO confirms that Triggerhippie4 has a WP:OWN issue here. There is active discussion on the talkpage. I was sincerely surprised when I saw the WP:ANI notification on my talkpage, and think that this is unnecessary drama. Debresser (talk) 17:36, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
I'm sorry if this not the right place to discuss this (if this is the case, please move my message to a more appropriate location), but I have found myself in a fight with a user named Mike Novikoff. I saw him removing stress (accent) marks from names in the Cyrillic script (enclosed in a {{lang-ru}} template) and I've tried to stop him, but he continues. I have pointed him to WP:BRD and suggested that he starts a serious discussion of the issue on the Russian project talk page before continuing, but he doesn't want to listen. There's also another user that helped him.
Mike Novikoff even wrote an essay about the necessity to remove stress marks from Russian names (WP:RUSTRESS), which he promotes by including a link to it in his edit summaries. I've tried to move the essay to his user space, but he moved it back. (By the way, the essay is badly written, and it looks like an attack page against the Russian Wikipedia where Mike Novikoff is currently blocked.)
I don't really want to fight and I don't care much about the Navalny and Lenin pages where Mike Novikoff reverted me 3 times or so already, but I'm afraid that he starts to remove stress marks en masse. I'm concerned about the articles that don't have Russian-language versions. (There are many, cause the Russian Wikipedia has stricter notability rules.) And if there isn't a Russian version, there will be nowhere to go for the information on correct pronunciation, the information will be completely lost.
By the way, Mike Novikoff's essay says that an IPA transcription "is already present in most of the articles that need it", but that is simply not true. And Mike No\vikoff has already removed stress marks from some articles that didn't have an IPA transcription. Examples: [50], [51], [52], [53], [54], [55], [56], [57]. --Moscow Connection (talk) 20:30, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
Here are links to previous discussions:
As you can see, I've tried to explain to Mike Novikoff and Retimuko that most (if not all) Russian encyclopedias and dictionaries mark stresses. And that if they wanted to remove stress marks, a wide and thorough discussion would be necessary. But they don't seem to understand. --Moscow Connection (talk) 20:37, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- Moscow Connection, I've found that the best thing to do when you are in a dispute with another editor is to get more, knowledgeable editors involved in the discussion so it evolves out of a "me vs. you" tug of war to a "how can we improve this?" discussion. So, I was going to recommend you bringing this subject to Wikipedia:WikiProject Russia but it looks like most talk page messages there get zero responses. Are there places in Wikipedia, maybe Wikipedia:Manual of Style or Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages involving language, accents, stress marks and the like where some other editors could weigh in on this matter? I think you need to broaden the discussion beyond just the two of you. Liz Read! Talk! 05:40, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Russia is essentially dead. Probably WT:MOS could be the best place to discuss the issue.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:32, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
Indeed, having a clear statement on this matter included in MoS would be the best of the options. I just hadn't aimed that high yet. Generally, I am removing these stress marks from Russian words (not only names) for a couple of years already, for the sake of the correct spelling, and such edits were never reverted until recently, so I dare say there is a kind of silent consensus on that. Only once I've been asked a question by a user (who didn't revert, just asked), then a user suggested that I write a more detailed description, hence I wrote WP:RUSTRESS and continued to happily edit using the shortcut instead of wordy summaries.
All of a sudden, Moscow Connection came down like a ton of bricks on me, and despite all the conversations I'm feeling a constant pressure from him for almost a month now. Did he mention that he moved my essay away twice, until having been stopped by an admin? Then he proceeded to constantly watch and revert my edits, including weird reversions, and he continues to do so. And he had put {{uw-3rr}} on my talk page thrice, despite it being a single-issue template, despite WP:Don't template the regulars and despite my request to stop it after the first one. He acts as if I'm doing something really disruptive and he has to stop me by all means, he even said this explicitly: "I can't allow him to do it". It looks like WP:HOUNDING (he really does inhibit my work), I'm sick and tired of this, so can you please tell him to slow down a bit? While we don't currently have a rule to remove the stress marks, we don't have one to put and keep them either, so Moscow Connection's behavior shouldn't be so aggressive.
there will be nowhere to go for the information on correct pronunciation, the information will be completely lost
A typical fallacy of an inexperienced editor (even though Moscow Connection doesn't look like one). If a research is so unique and original that it "will be completely lost", it definitely has no place in Wikipedia, that's what WP:OR is all about. — Mike Novikoff 02:05, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
Personal attacks and accusation of sock puppetry by No Great Shaker
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
No Great Shaker accuses me of being a sock puppet of Lazman321 [58] Sick of editors throwing around baseless accusations. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:57, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- See the GAR and the baseless accusation of "bad faith". Thanks. No Great Shaker (talk) 00:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- File a case at WP:SPI if you think there's evidence of sock puppetry. Otherwise, you need to keep your suspicions to yourself. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:27, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- Go ahead, No Great Shaker. Go ahead and list me in the Sockpuppet investigations list. Go ahead and have a reviewer use checkuser on me and Hawkeye7. Just ask yourself this. Why would an experienced editor with tons of featured, A-class, and good articles to his credit create a sockpuppet user a week after re-nominating Albert Kesselring and wait two months before having the sockpuppet user work on getting "Levels (Avicii song)" to GA status along with other edits before eventually reviewing Albert Kesselring and passing it. If you still believe that I am a sockpuppet user of Hawkeye7, then go ahead, No Great Shaker. Go ahead and list me in the Sockpuppet investigation list. Lazman321 (talk) 06:49, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- This is a ridiculous accusation. Combined with the personal attack on the GAR page, this is an indication that NGS needs to take a break. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:06, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with Peacemaker67. This is not okay behavior. No Great Shaker, you either need to file a report at SPI and with evidence and diffs to support your accusation, or you need to not say anything at all. Throwing accusations of sock puppetry at other editors like that is uncivil, and it yields absolutely no benefit to the community when you do this. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 11:40, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- This is a ridiculous accusation. Combined with the personal attack on the GAR page, this is an indication that NGS needs to take a break. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:06, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- Go ahead, No Great Shaker. Go ahead and list me in the Sockpuppet investigations list. Go ahead and have a reviewer use checkuser on me and Hawkeye7. Just ask yourself this. Why would an experienced editor with tons of featured, A-class, and good articles to his credit create a sockpuppet user a week after re-nominating Albert Kesselring and wait two months before having the sockpuppet user work on getting "Levels (Avicii song)" to GA status along with other edits before eventually reviewing Albert Kesselring and passing it. If you still believe that I am a sockpuppet user of Hawkeye7, then go ahead, No Great Shaker. Go ahead and list me in the Sockpuppet investigation list. Lazman321 (talk) 06:49, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
(Non-administrator comment) Update: No Great Shaker has announced their retirement. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 23:07, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
Insistent SPA engaging in disruptive behaviour
User:WikiCorrection0283 is a single-purpose account, whose only activity to date has been composed of adding heavy WP:OR and WP:POV violations to the article List of massacres in Cyprus, e.g. [59]. This has been going on for a couple of months really but has really recently escalated. The content is a collage of content copied and pasted from other articles (content that I myself wrote), random references that have little or no relevance to the topic and pure original research without any sources. Despite attempts at communication and clear previous consensus amongst editors on what to include, the user insists on making these mass additions and responds with walls of texts on Talk:List of massacres in Cyprus, replete with personal attacks against me, which is frankly in harassment territory by now, taking into consideration their edit summaries too. Clear case of WP:NOTHERE. Pinging other users involved: Beshogur, Mr.User200. --GGT (talk) 00:06, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- User:GGT you should have waited for my response and of other fellow editors on the article talk page, also this by your part is really not helping, it never helps. User:WikiCorrection0283 was a Anon IP before October 2020, seems he tries to help in Wikipedia at his particular way. I hope more can be achieved in the talk page that apealing to warns and reverts. I propose that WikiCorrection0283 use his draft space to propose a version for the article and make the observations opinions on it.Mr.User200 (talk) 00:17, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- I stand by my original conclusion - the user is a clear SPA as any third-party editor will be able to see from their contributions and the walls of text, personal attacks and mass manipulations of references are clear red flag signs that the user is not here to build an encyclopaedia. --GGT (talk) 01:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- User Wikicorrection0283 shows particular interest on that article, during a short period of time, likely a SPA. User:GGT also edit several Cyprus related articles too, but have more time editing. Maybe a concensus could be achieved.Mr.User200 (talk) 01:54, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, in fact they only show interest in that article. That's why they're called an SPA. I've worked on these articles for years and I know a POV-pushing SPA when I see one. The reason I'm calling for administrative attention is because all the red flag signs are clearly there. --GGT (talk) 02:42, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- Being an SPA is not a violation of policy. Most editors start out their editing careers as SPAs. It's the WP:OR that I'm more concerned about. Liz Read! Talk! 04:37, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'm sure I looked like one: created account, made 12 edits, then created a bio on someone whose first name was Valerie. Hahaha... Agree with Liz, the simple fact it's an SPA isn't the problem. —valereee (talk) 13:48, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- That is true, but letting the SPA emphasis aside, that the single purpose here is OR is quite a problem. And the OR is quite insidious. I've been working on these articles for years and wouldn't be able to identify it if it wasn't for 1) the user copying content that I wrote myself 2) me having relatively easy access to a legal deposit library. Another editor could very easily overlook it. The user has been made fully aware, and has only responded with walls of texts and personal attacks. --GGT (talk) 01:48, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- Liz and I have both posted to the user's talk, dealing with walls of text, personal attacks, and using typographics for emphasis. They've also been pointed at Teahouse. The OR issue can be a pretty steep learning curve for a lot of newer users; if WikiCorrection0283 refuses to try to learn that lesson, that would be evidence of being here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. WC0283, I recommend you read the information both at that link and at WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH, and if you feel you don't understand, go to Teahouse and ask for help. —valereee (talk) 12:17, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- That is true, but letting the SPA emphasis aside, that the single purpose here is OR is quite a problem. And the OR is quite insidious. I've been working on these articles for years and wouldn't be able to identify it if it wasn't for 1) the user copying content that I wrote myself 2) me having relatively easy access to a legal deposit library. Another editor could very easily overlook it. The user has been made fully aware, and has only responded with walls of texts and personal attacks. --GGT (talk) 01:48, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'm sure I looked like one: created account, made 12 edits, then created a bio on someone whose first name was Valerie. Hahaha... Agree with Liz, the simple fact it's an SPA isn't the problem. —valereee (talk) 13:48, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- Being an SPA is not a violation of policy. Most editors start out their editing careers as SPAs. It's the WP:OR that I'm more concerned about. Liz Read! Talk! 04:37, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, in fact they only show interest in that article. That's why they're called an SPA. I've worked on these articles for years and I know a POV-pushing SPA when I see one. The reason I'm calling for administrative attention is because all the red flag signs are clearly there. --GGT (talk) 02:42, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- User:GGT you should have waited for my response and of other fellow editors on the article talk page, also this by your part is really not helping, it never helps. User:WikiCorrection0283 was a Anon IP before October 2020, seems he tries to help in Wikipedia at his particular way. I hope more can be achieved in the talk page that apealing to warns and reverts. I propose that WikiCorrection0283 use his draft space to propose a version for the article and make the observations opinions on it.Mr.User200 (talk) 00:17, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
Rude and aggressive comments from User:Sailor Sam
The discourse can be seen here on my talk page. I nominated a page (Zappa (film)), which I thought non-notable, for deletion about 3 weeks ago. it was hastily declined. OK, whatever. But User:Sam Sailor seems to have taken exception to this, questioning, among other things, my knowledge of the Danish language, my editing history (which I stand fully behind), making (in my belief) unfounded accusations of disruptive editing, and generally communicating in an aggressive and generally uncivil manor towards myself.
Additionally, upon further inspection, he/she has made reverts of at least one edit I made in an unrelated article, Astronomy (song).
Also, the editor in question has made rude commentary about the incident on another editor's talk page.
I have also explicitly informed them not to contact me again.--L1A1 FAL (talk) 17:59, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- @L1A1 FAL: First, you seem to have ignored the big warning telling you that you must notify any editor you bring up for discussion. I will do so for you, but please make sure to do so yourself in the future. Anyway, I don't see why this is at ANI. You asked the editor not to contact on your talk page. Fine. If they editor kept contacting you, I could understand an ANI thread, but that has happened yet. Reverting a single edit they saw in your edit history (I assume) is clearly not anywhere enough to count as WP:Hounding. Their discussion with Lugnuts seems to be just two editors exasperated at what they felt was a terrible nomination. The stuff on your talk page seems mostly fine. Asking you if you spoke Danish was reasonable under the circumstances. WP:BEFORE means you should generally look for sources before nominating and although it looks like a bunch of English sources were found, it's possible most sources for a Danish film will be in Danish, so if you didn't understand Danish, completing before would likely have been difficult. Nil Einne (talk) 18:44, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- BTW, remember that while you are allowed to ask editors not to contact you on your talk page, this doesn't mean you can escape responsibility for your edits. If there are problems with your AfDs and an editor has tried to help you but you've ignored them and told them not to contact you, they will be well within their rights to bring it ANI to have you sanctioned e.g. topic banned from AfD if the problem continues. The community is likely to accept that attempts to discuss the problem with you were limited by your refusal to discuss the matter, and that therefore sanctions may be warranted even with limited attempts to resolve the matter first. Nil Einne (talk) 18:48, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- The AFD was speedily declined, within 24 hours. I had minimal opportunity to respond to the matter. Offer help? Sam Sailor didn't even contact me until after the matter was closed. He contacted me over a matter that was, by that point, closed. I find that nonconstructive, to say the least.
- BTW, remember that while you are allowed to ask editors not to contact you on your talk page, this doesn't mean you can escape responsibility for your edits. If there are problems with your AfDs and an editor has tried to help you but you've ignored them and told them not to contact you, they will be well within their rights to bring it ANI to have you sanctioned e.g. topic banned from AfD if the problem continues. The community is likely to accept that attempts to discuss the problem with you were limited by your refusal to discuss the matter, and that therefore sanctions may be warranted even with limited attempts to resolve the matter first. Nil Einne (talk) 18:48, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- The particular edit he reverted was a valid edit that I made, removing informtion not relevant to the target of the article. I believe he simply reverted it based on my edit summary, and their and my back-and-forth, rather than the actual matter of the edit, or having any knowledge of the subject themself.
- I did not see the warning. That is on me. I am beyond exasperated with this editor, and just wanted this issue addressed.
- And why should I be sanctioned? I didn't act in bad faith. The matter was over when he/she contacted me. I tried to engage them.. I've never had any issues about AFD before, so I believe that your understanding of this matter is incorrect. Their communication with me was unnecessary, given that the AFD was declined, and it was additionally, needlessly accusatory and WP:uncivil.
- Additionally, they came at me today, after probably about a week of no communication. While they probably ultimately have good motives, there is no reason that the substance of their conduct should not be addressed.-L1A1 FAL (talk) 19:00, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- Again it's a single edit. Right or wrong, it's minor enough it's unreasonable to expect sanction over it, the same way it would be to sanction you over a poor AfD or not notifying them. If there is continued dispute over the edit, take it to Talk:Astronomy as always. There should be no reason why it needs to be at ANI. If there is a continued pattern of reverting your edits especially unnecessarily, or following you around, then sure sanction may be justified. But not over a single edit. Also substance of what conduct? What on earth are you talking about? Editors aren't required to use Wikipedia 24/7 nor are they required to respond to stuff straight away. You've told them you no longer welcome communication. Just leave it at that and stop wasting everyone's time. If you continue to make poor AfDs, that's on you, so please do seek feedback in appropriate venues if you're not willing to discuss the problems. Nil Einne (talk) 19:10, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- (EC) Looking more carefully, I see you did say "And unless you actually have something to discuss, please do not contact me again, or a complaint will be filed" and the editor responded. Them replying after you said this seems okay since they felt they did have something to discuss. The fact you didn't welcome their reply is unfortunate but it wasn't a clear request to stay away. Their reply could have been more polite, but yours could have been as well. Now that you've left a clear request to stay away, this should be respected and I've reminded them that they should do so. Nil Einne (talk) 19:10, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
I saw your comment on their page, and can't help but feel as though you have more-or less invited them to counter-report me. I find this unfortunate. I also had more to add, but it got caught in an edit conflict. I'm not retyping it, as I feel that this is going nowhere, and I have real-life matters to attend to. I would greatly appreciate it if you would address Sam's tone in his communication, but I can see you feel different than I. Good day.--L1A1 FAL (talk) 19:25, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- Additionally, they came at me today, after probably about a week of no communication. While they probably ultimately have good motives, there is no reason that the substance of their conduct should not be addressed.-L1A1 FAL (talk) 19:00, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
It is interesting that Sam Sailor is pretending to coach L1A1 FAL on dispute resolution and conversation, in the same edit with the ad hominem attack "I chose to disregard that you did not wish to discuss your incompetence". And yes, starting by challenging his knowledge of Danish, when he had never claimed such, was an aggressive and counter-production way to start a conversation. So whack Sam with a trout or something. Dicklyon (talk) 20:54, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
Shakshak31
Shakshak31 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Ever since the eruption of the new Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, some new user/IPs have arrived to this site, including User:Shakshak31, who seemingly is not here to here to build an encyclopedia, but rather, to be on a mission of Turkification.
Some of his diffs:
Personal attacks: speak properly dummy. I'm not sockpuppet of someone. I just didn't see the archive
Major lack of WP:CIR [60] [61]. Honestly this person is impossible to work with, admittingly I don't have the best patience for this kind of stuff, yet my point remains.
Removal/alteration of sourced information and edit warring in a GA article to push his own POV, completely ignoring WP:CONSENSUS and whatnot [62] [63] [64]
Some of these removals include cited stuff such as:
Basarab's name implies that he was of Cuman or Pecheneg ancestry, but this hypothesis has not been proven.[8][11][12]
A scholarly hypothesis states that he was descended from Seneslau, a mid-13th-century Vlach lord.[4][5]
Changed the lede as well: Although his name is of Turkic origin, 14th-century sources unanimously state that he was a Vlach. -> There are multiple theories about his ethnicity.
Anti-Iranian behaviour or at least more disrespect from his side:
I'm deleting my own comment. because the iranian guy deleted my other comment.
--HistoryofIran (talk) 19:04, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- I've already explained all my edits about Basarab on The talk page. [65]--Shakshak31 (talk) 19:10, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- I never deleted the sentence he was talking about. It's still there. I just cleared the page, made grammer edits, and deleted theories such as the theory that his name came from the dacio-thracian language. Because Dacian-thracian language died out almost a thousand years before Basarab's birth. [66]--Shakshak31 (talk) 19:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- Also this translation sucks. what is "hello teacher"? Lol--Shakshak31 (talk) 19:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- If User:Shakshak31 is responding here, can he explain his comment, "these are the thieves of history" (Google translated from Turkish). I am familiar with past disputes about the origins of the Safavid dynasty. Over the years, that page has had to be protected about 15 times, mostly to deter people who want to make the Safavids more Turkish and less Persian. Sources seem to agree that they were both. If Shakshak31 shows by his talk comments that he is unable to edit neutrally in this domain, some restrictions may be needed. Also, if you really think this is 'a lousy site' why wouldn't you take your efforts elsewhere? At present I'm not convinced that Shakshak31 is a sockpuppet, though socks are often known for their sudden arrival on Wikipedia with strong opinions that they make known immediately. EdJohnston (talk) 22:27, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
EdJohnston It's not about the Safavids. I added the Afsharids to the List of Turkic dynasties and countries because they were Turkmens from the Afshar tribe. Also Nader Shah's mother tongue was Turkic and Nader Shah doesn't have any Iranian (as ethnicity) ancestry. But a Persian editor revert it. That's what that sentence was about. --Shakshak31 (talk) 23:29, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: Shakshak has made unacceptable statements in his edits as can be seen above, referring to other editors as "thieves of history", amongst others. When confronted with these edits, right here at ANI, he still refers to another editor as "a Persian editor",[67] a clear violation of WP:NPA. Looking at the compelling evidence, its safe to say that Shakshak31 is not here to build this encyclopedia. - LouisAragon (talk) 00:39, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
Is Persian an insult?--Shakshak31 (talk) 13:35, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- You say it in demeaning way, you do realize we all have usernames? Do you refer people by their background instead of names irl too? Also, instead of asking questions, shouldn't u answer Ed already? This is exactly what I mean that this user is impossible to work with. He won't answer your questions / avoids them, and when he actually does, it's barely. HistoryofIran (talk)
- @Shakshak31: I will block you indefinitely if there are any further comments along the lines of "a Persian editor revert it" (diff above). Any similar terms that attempt to describe an editor are also totally unacceptable. At Wikipedia, what counts is the edit (the text that is displayed in an article). Any assumed characteristic of the editor making an edit is irrelevant. Johnuniq (talk) 02:36, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
NorthBySouthBaranof
The editor NorthBySouthBaranof seems to revert politically contentious edits, edits intended to improve an article's neutrality, on articles that have serious left wing biases in certain places. This has been a problem for a while, starting with George Floyd's article, where I wanted to add more information on Mr. Floyd's medical examiner report. He reverted that edit, and claimed that reverting his revert was a blockable edit warring. Looking at his userpage, you can see many cases, and even more if you look in the talk page's edit history, of people complaining about him reverting edits intended to improve the representation of both sides in an article.
He has been a significant hindrance in me trying to improve the representation of all people, regardless of whether or not they are progressives or conservatives, in articles. It seems that I try to remove more liberal biases than conservative ones, but the fact of the matter is that there are more liberal biases than conservative ones.
Thanks, --JazzClam (talk) 01:58, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- Have you considered the parable of The Mote and the Beam? Acroterion (talk) 02:07, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) @JazzClam: I strongly suggest providing WP:DIFFs that support your claim. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 03:16, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'll echo what Tenryuu said. We can't possibly know what you're talking about, and thus make any determination as to whether there's actually a substantive behavioural issue, without a few illustrative examples. Otherwise it's just hearsay, and your subjective interpretation... Which obviously isn't fair to the editor being reported if we were to only rely on that. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 03:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment)Op seems to be engaged in a content dispute on Ilhan Omar204.76.134.30 (talk) 03:34, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- Where it looks like a number of editors have reverted their "improvements" to the article. It seems that the PoV may be on the other foot. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:53, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment)@Beyond My Ken: Bravo! 👏204.76.134.30 (talk) 04:57, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I think OP could benefit from discussing their edits on the affected articles' talk pages. Checking Talk:Ilhan Omar as an example they haven't engaged other editors as to why their edits are being reverted. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 04:59, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- Where it looks like a number of editors have reverted their "improvements" to the article. It seems that the PoV may be on the other foot. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:53, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment)Op seems to be engaged in a content dispute on Ilhan Omar204.76.134.30 (talk) 03:34, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- My revert on Ilhan Omar is self-explanatory. Their edit removed the well-sourced description of Donald Trump's false, defamatory claims that Omar praised al-Qaida and smeared American soldiers. This is, of course, unacceptable - WP:BLP demands that we not falsely defame living people, and thus if we include notable false claims about a living person, we must be crystal clear that they are false. For that and other reasons, their edit was objectionable and I reverted it. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:03, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- NorthBySouthBaranof, JazzClam posted a notice on your talk page 2 minutes after this report was submitted. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:06, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- And see the OP's talk page. I'm wondering if an AE sanction is need here. Doug Weller talk 06:21, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- NorthBySouthBaranof, JazzClam posted a notice on your talk page 2 minutes after this report was submitted. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:06, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- The OP's record here is not terribly impressive -- basically a run-of-the-mill POV pusher. They have also violated 1RR at Ilhan Omar. --JBL (talk) 13:41, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- This doesn't seem to stop at Ilhan Omar; JazzClam seems to have been trying to remove properly-sourced negative Trump statements from several articles, such as their thrice-reverted removals of content from Postal voting in the United States that described (with sources) Donald Trump's efforts to obstruct postal voting this year. There's also a copy of George Floyd's toxicology report that they pasted into Draft:Pyrotol (a completely unrelated title), which seems to be part of a plan to revisit their proposal to state, in Wikipedia's voice, in the lead of the George Floyd article, that his death was the result of a fentanyl overdose and not from having a police officer kneel on his neck for nine minutes (example). What they describe here as "improving neutrality" is really glossing over or removing any reliably-sourced information they appear to disagree with, which has the effect of skewing these articles to a more pro-Trump point of view which is not supported by material published in reliable sources. I suggest a topic ban covering the scope of WP:ARBAP2 is probably in order. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 15:32, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not trying to edit for political gain, that's it. I'm trying to improve the political neutrality of the encyclopedia. The fact of the matter simply is, that there are more typically liberal biases on this encyclopedia than typically conservative ones. I mostly remove politically contentious keywords and replace them with neutral ones. In the case of the Ilhan Omar article, I changed a line saying "Trump claimed without evidence" to "Trump claimed". That was it, the content of the line is still the same, a claim is a statement, whether or not it is true, in this case it was false, and the "without evidence" portion simply served to villainize (not saying i approved of what he said) him, that's it. All i do is remove or change keywords like that, things that detract from this encyclopedia's neutrality. I don't remove any facts, or add any competing ones, I just remove sketchy wording that makes articles seem more like an opinion piece rather than a neutral, irrefutably factual, article. JazzClam (talk) 23:45, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- You grossly fail to understand NPOV. -- Valjean (talk) 23:57, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- @JazzClam: On Wikipedia, WP:NEUTRAL means that we—as editors—must neutrally summarize what reliable sources say. It does not mean that Wikipedia needs to maintain a WP:FALSEBALANCE between left and right (or science and religion, or any other X vs. Y dispute). If more reliable sources favor one side, then we give WP:WEIGHT to that side, and we characterize the other side as a minority position. If most or all reliable sources favor one side, we may not even mention the other side at all. That's what NPOV means. Woodroar (talk) 00:01, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- @JazzClam:, Woodroar is right. I suggest you read my essay about this: NPOV means neutral editing, not neutral content. -- Valjean (talk) 02:32, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
Boomerang sanctions against JazzClam
- JazzClam appears to be here for political reasons rather than for the purpose of improving the encyclopedia. See WP:NOTHERE. The least response would be a post-1932 US politics topic ban. Otherwise an indefinite block. Binksternet (talk) 16:41, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- 1st choice, Indef block. 2nd choice TBAN post-1932.(derp) for JazzClam; I have little confidence in their desire to not propagandize or (in their eyes) RGW. That they spread the POV pushing to an area outside post 1932 US politics and that they bring a complaint to ANI when someone does not go along with their agenda makes clear they would not be able to contain themselves. They are NOTHERE. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 16:52, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support TBAN post-1932 -
This userJazzClam has some constructive edits outside of political topics. But I saw a few red flags while browsing their contribs. They thought it okay to use a draft page to put together a table of the toxicology report for George Floyd ([68]) while pushing to include info about a "fatal" fentanyl level in his blood. Recently, nearly all their edits have been to keep "NPOV" by removing Trump-critical content, and even "China-centric" content ([69]). There is also this user page edit that is somewhat concerning. EvergreenFir (talk) 17:18, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- Just for clarity, @Deepfriedokra and EvergreenFir: can you clarify if you mean you support a block/TBAN against NBSB or JazzClam? At a glance it appears to be the former, but I think you mean the latter. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:21, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- @GorillaWarfare: Thank you for noticing that. I was referring to JazzClam. I will edit to clarify. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:49, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- Per my comment above I support AP2 topic ban, but oppose indef block. The user has constructive contributions outside of this scope, I haven't seen any evidence of WP:NOTHERE but whoever said WP:RGW hit the nail on the head (I was going to say WP:TE). Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:31, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support AP2 topic ban for JC -- the RGW stuff needs to stop, but I think it's worth exploring the possibility that they can contribute constructively in other areas. --JBL (talk) 21:57, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support AP2 TB for JazzClam - an indef is not necessary at this time. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:14, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support AP2 TB for JazzClam. The degree of their failure to understand NPOV is appalling, so they should stay away from controversial articles until they have learned to understand that policy. -- Valjean (talk) 02:35, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support AP2 TB for JazzClam. The area is sufficiently troubled without someone who totally misunderstands NPOV. Johnuniq (talk) 02:38, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
Single-purpose account repetitively adding the same unsourced content
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
(previous entry about the same subject)
Cihangir751 (talk · contribs), already blocked 48 hours end september, is again here seemingly only to add dubious unsourced information on some obscure Ottoman character, erasing sourced content; deliberately ignores invitation to discuss on TP, claims to be a descendant of the subject, having therefore the right to deny other people to interfere. What other solution except long-term block or thema-ban? --Phso2 (talk) 20:07, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked from Raziye Sultan indefinite. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 23:31, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
IP-hopper stalks users and calls them Serbian propagandists. Should this be an LTA? Should he be community banned for harassment?
WP:HARASSMENT. This user is an IP-hopper that stalks a group of users's contribs and constantly reverts them, and calls them Serbian propagandists. Is there any solution to this? Examples: Special:Contributions/93.138.151.117 Special:Contributions/93.136.125.178 There are a lot more socks, but these two are the ones came to my head. 4thfile4thrank {talk} :? 00:22, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- 4thfile4thrank I agree there is a bad problem here, which you have tried to find help for. These IPs, possibly rangers are prolific. I'm not an admin who can handle this, but you certainly need admin intervention in this situation. Whoever is behind the IP seems willing to keep the edit warring indefinitely. — Maile (talk) 01:07, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
93.138.76.165 and Government of National Salvation
One looks at the talk page User talk:93.138.76.165 shows that this IP is clearly not here to build an encyclopaedia, and is now making personal attacks via edit summary [70]. Could someone please block them? I have protected the article. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:04, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
Block me. Listen to the disguised great serbian propagandist. 93.138.76.165 (talk) 01:07, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- Just wait until someone blocks you. Just wait. D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 01:08, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
@Peacemaker67: Can Hrvatska radiotelevizija be semi-protected? Look at the revision history. I was battling reversion with that disruptive IP. 4thfile4thrank {talk} :? 01:13, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
This needs to be an LTA. This has been going on for months. Look at the socks. 4thfile4thrank {talk} :? 01:14, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Done. I have blocked this particular IP (93.138.76.165 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)) for 48 hours. Mz7 (talk) 01:15, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- I have also been attacked by the same individual. [71] Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 19:54, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'm only just driving by here but please see User:Ivanvector/Serbian Army vandal and/or Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/VJ-Yugo. I'll look into this some more when I get to a PC. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 12:09, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
User:Bus stop bludgeoning discussion at Talk:Parler
Can I get some uninvolved admin eyes on User:Bus stop's behavior at Talk:Parler? It's getting absolutely ridiculous. I initially created the RfC in part because we were going in circles, but it doesn't appear to have helped. The user keeps WP:REHASHing the same arguments over and over and over again—claiming that people have not explained why the mention of antisemitic content on Parler ought to be included in the lead when they have (often more than once), and most often repeating the WP:OTHERCONTENT argument that "if it's not in the lead of Twitter, why should it be included here?". Multiple users have asked them to stop, but they are continuing. I don't know if they genuinely believe it's a legitimate argument or if their intent is to overwhelm and derail the discussions there, but the end result is the same. Talk:Parler#Description_of_this_service is the most recent example of the behavior, but it can be viewed up and down the talk page including in Talk:Parler#Heavy bias circumvents guidelines of conservative, dispassionate descriptions. Please remove subjective and unsubstantiated "antisemitism" claim and in the RfC. They began doing this on November 7 (see my comments then: [72], [73]) and have shown no sign of slowing.
Diffs of multiple editors explaining to them they need to stop, that their behavior is disruptive, and/or that discussion of Twitter should happen at Talk:Twitter:
- Myself: [74], [75], [76], [77], [78], [79], [80], [81]
- IHateAccounts: [82], [83], [84]
- Slatersteven: [85], [86]
- XOR'easter: [87], [88]
- Grayfell: [89], [90], [91]
I am also seeing that Bus stop has quite the history at ANI, including numerous discussions about disruption at articles related to Judaism that go quite far back. Not sure if anyone more familiar with their history could provide additional context.
Thanks in advance to whoever wades through that long talk page to try to sort this out. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:34, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- Bus stop is on a roll again--an AP2 topic ban would be a great help. Drmies (talk) 02:08, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- This has happened many times at AP articles, often over minor issues or trivia, as at Donald Trump and Stefan Molyneux. [92] SPECIFICO talk 02:15, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- Bus stop's first comment in this mess, to the best of my knowledge, was their inserting language ranting about "social media oligarchs", specifically naming Twitter, in a response to a thread that an abusive user titled "User GorillaWarfare Twitter Troll" [93]. The abusive user in question vanished after GorillaWarfare asked for others to step in here [94]. It got more crazy when Bus stop jumped in to support the abusive user's illegitimate call for a "vote" [95] in which said user accused GorillaWarfare repeatedly of being a paid employee of Twitter, and then they went back to complaining about and trying to compare Parler to Twitter [96][97][98][99][100].
- This has been going on for the better part of two weeks now and I have felt for several days that it had passed into the realm of Sealioning and Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing behavior, but today's comment that started with "I am merely asking you for your reasoning, GorillaWarfare" and falsely accusing GorillaWarfare of being unwilling to defend her reasoning [101], followed by regurgitating once again "There is no reason this article should deviate from the Twitter article. Left-leaning politics is not a reason" [102], was definitive. IHateAccounts (talk) 02:20, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- This is standard operating procedure for Bus stop. Even when it is explained to Bus stop that they could easily get a consensus for their desired edit, Bus stop can't resist the opportunity to browbeat an editor instead of simply seeking an easy consensus. Here's my experience in which I explained to Bus stop that I would not oppose their attempt to change consensus. It seems that Bus stop relishes the bludgeoning process. Sundayclose (talk) 02:33, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- I've warned Bus Stop multiple times about bludgeoning since July, including this one which referenced a commitment on their talk in September of 2019 to no more bludgeoning discussions. —valereee (talk) 11:52, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'd support an AP topic ban. Doug Weller talk 19:37, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- I think a rate limit would be more effective, like a sitewide restriction of 3 posts per thread, appealable in six months. I don't think the posting-too-much is limited to any particular topic area. Lev¡vich 19:42, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- A rate limit seems like it would be easy to circumvent by just starting a new thread. --WMSR (talk) 20:23, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Indeed -- part of the issue has been that Bus stop is bringing up the same argument at practically every new thread on the page (and the page has attracted a lot of new users who are starting new threads because they don't know to read up on the talk page to see if the discussion has already started). GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:25, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- A rate limit seems like it would be easy to circumvent by just starting a new thread. --WMSR (talk) 20:23, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with Levivich. If bludgeoning is the only behavior issue then some sort of voluntary/mandatory restriction on talk page discussions is in order. Perhaps they are allowed 1 reply to another editor per day unless the are reply to a comment made directly to them. This can be a bit of rope before an AP2 tban. Springee (talk) 20:00, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- An AP topic ban seems like the minimum appropriate response, given this editor's history. He has at least 3 indefinite blocks in the past, primarily (it would appear) for obsessively partisan editing and a fixation on tagging people he identifies as Jews. Each indefinite block was lifted in exchange for mentorship and a promise of good behavior (here's a representative example). His mentors are mostly gone from Wikipedia, but he's still here, and his behavior is still poor (as the diffs above demonstrate). At some point we have to show at least some nominal respect and value to the constructive editors who have to deal with Bus stop's disruptive editing, instead of endlessly enabling him. Cutsomized post restrictions would potentially be appropriate if this were the first, or second, or even third instance of disruptive behavior, but we're well beyond that. An AP2 topic ban would be appropriate and can be enacted by any uninvolved admin, although an indefinite block is also more than justified by his history and ongoing disruption. MastCell Talk 20:02, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- I would like to see what they have to say about the situation but mostly I am swayed by Levivich and Springee. Seems the most common sense and helpful approach. PackMecEng (talk) 20:19, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- AP topic ban. Pretty simple. They've had plenty of rope over the time and haven't changed behavior.--Jorm (talk) 20:20, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- Topic banned. I've topic banned Bus stop indefinitely from all pages and discussions concerning post-1932 American politics. Bishonen | tålk 20:23, 17 November 2020 (UTC).
- I'm late to this party, and here only because I saw the notice of indefinite AP topic ban on Bus stop's UTP. He has been a clear net-negative on article talk pages for years, and my exposure to that has been mostly outside the AP area. So I agree it's not just AP, and perhaps a more appropriate sanction would be community ban, but the AP ban is far better than nothing. By the way, the serious problems also include persistent circular and repetitive argument that tends to make it less likely that arriving editors will read any of the existing discussion, largely defeating its purpose. Despite repeated exhortations Bus stop has seemed unable to grasp the concepts that a discussion is more than a debate between two or three editors, and that one doesn't need to keep repeating the same arguments over and over. While I doubt this TBAN will be the end of the Bus stop problem, it's a welcome step in the right direction. I only wish it didn't take years to reach this point. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:13, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- I imagine that continuance of the behavior that just led to an indefinite AP topic ban would make a pretty convincing case for a community ban, if it comes to that. GorillaWarfare (talk) 21:23, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- Please add these to my list: 1. Repeatedly asking you to answer a question that you have already answered multiple times, and, when you finally stop responding to those demands, accusing you of not being willing to participate in constructive discussion. 2. Believing that a discussion must continue until one of the parties is convinced by the other. That almost never happens, and it is not the purpose of discussion. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:00, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Endorse the AP2 topic ban, and the notion that violations should lead to an indef block and a CBan discussion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:45, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- This is just the latest in a long line of topics and discussions that Bus stop has mercilessly bludgeoned. A year ago he was banned from Aministrator Noticeboards for 3 months for bludgeoning a dicussion there: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1017#Formal_proposal_2. After that he stated "I commit to no more bludgeoning", yet I've seen many discussions since then which he has bludgeoned. User:GorillaWarfare, User:Valereee and User:Mandruss have it right in that this isn't about AP2 per se, but about 14 years of bludgeoning discussions. After each sanction (or serious threat of one), Bus stop "reforms", but it rarely lasts more than a couple of months. User:Sundayclose is correct when they write "It seems that Bus stop relishes the bludgeoning process". I appreciate the topic ban User:Bishonen, but that just means the bludgeoning will soon start up elsewhere. Building on User:Springee's idea, I think a limit of one comment/reply per page per day might help Bus stop overcome his apparent need to bludgeon. Jayjg (talk) 21:56, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- Y'all deserve to be bludgeoned Parler:
If you take the time to read the referenced sources, the main themes are: free speech, explosive growth due to mass exodus of conservatives, fracturing of our information sources, and yes about 2/3 down in most articles highlighting the nasty content. Editing so as to get the most damning aspects of something you don't like to show up in the google search results seems the way WP is written these days. fiveby(zero) 23:47, 17 November 2020 (UTC)Parler is an American microblogging and social networking service launched in August 2018. Parler has a significant user base of Trump supporters, conservatives, and right-wing extremists. Posts on the service often contain far-right content, antisemitism, and conspiracy theories. Wikipedia
- Reality is just biased. GPinkerton (talk) 23:56, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- People are biased, reality just is. It is a shame they did not even get to reply or defend themselves though. PackMecEng (talk) 00:32, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Check out BitChute. Same deal. I initiated a discussion on the lede, which can be found here. That was on 4 September 2020. Here is what the lede looked like on 4 September 2020. It read
BitChute is a video hosting service known for accommodating far-right individuals and conspiracy theorists.[9] The platform was created in 2017 to allow video uploaders to avoid content rules enforcement on YouTube,[10] and some creators who have been banned from YouTube or had their channels barred from receiving advertising revenue ("demonetized") have migrated to BitChute.[2] The Southern Poverty Law Center has said the site hosts "hate-fueled material".[11]
That's not the way a lede should be written. That constitutes left-leaning point-of-view-pushing. A lede is not a billboard. The point-of-view-pushing on Wikipedia is not primarily being done by those of us who might be considered "conservative", whatever that means. Thank you, Fiveby, PackMecEng, for weighing in. Bus stop (talk) 00:51, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Check out BitChute. Same deal. I initiated a discussion on the lede, which can be found here. That was on 4 September 2020. Here is what the lede looked like on 4 September 2020. It read
- People are biased, reality just is. It is a shame they did not even get to reply or defend themselves though. PackMecEng (talk) 00:32, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Reality is just biased. GPinkerton (talk) 23:56, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- Wow, I think this [104] is relevant. IHateAccounts (talk) 01:25, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Repeating, once again, arguments you've repeated ad nauseum about an AP2 topic on the thread in which you've just received a ban in the AP2 topic area for bludgeoning discussions, and where people have expressed concerns the behavior will continue, is certainly a bold choice. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:28, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- We shouldn't write ledes of social media articles that maximally disparage the underlying entity. This is what I am objecting to. Ledes are not required to do anything. It is entirely gratuitous to load the lede of a Parler or a BitChute article with every reliably-sourced, negative comment we can find. Bus stop (talk) 01:45, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Astonishing. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:48, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- I just realized that fiveby said "y'all deserve to be bludgeoned" above, isn't that some kind of threat? IHateAccounts (talk) 01:54, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Astonishing. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:48, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- We shouldn't write ledes of social media articles that maximally disparage the underlying entity. This is what I am objecting to. Ledes are not required to do anything. It is entirely gratuitous to load the lede of a Parler or a BitChute article with every reliably-sourced, negative comment we can find. Bus stop (talk) 01:45, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Community ban now. I'm convinced this is the best solution after reading all the comments and evidence above. -- Valjean (talk) 01:50, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- I ran into an EC when Bish issued the TBan, and decided not to add. But, since this continues: The bludgeoning issue has existed for a long time and warnings haven’t helped. I asked Bus Stop to read BLUDGEON long ago, they said thank you, and then shortly after continued. This is quite disruptive on a page with several editors. I don’t think restricting edits per thread makes sense as repetition of an argument is more of the problem than sheer number of edits. An AP2 TBan would certainly help the situation and perhaps will provide time for the editor to understand the problem. O3000 (talk) 01:57, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Endorse per Beyond My Ken. Firestar464 (talk) 03:02, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Comment - Bus stop and I have had major editorial disagreements on four pages, two on articles I had originally created. I can't recall ever agreeing with them. That said, their disagreement, and repeated replies to other editors, never caused any disruption: in every case they were outnumbered, they argued their case, and that was the end of it. Given this, I don't understand why they are being banned from AP. Yes they respond with their opinion more than you want, and yes most of you (and me too apparently) disagree with them, but I don't perceive how having their opinion on the talk page is disruptive. In fact, when arguing with Bus stop in the past in the AP area, I've been acutely aware of the fact that a majority of reliable sources are on my side, but that Bus stop is expressing the view of a minority of American editorial boards - presumably those on the right of American politics — and is also expressing the views of perhaps 30-40 % of the United States. I'd rather have that view represented in the talk pages. And from a procedural perspective, why is action being taken against a long-term editor (not a vandal) after less than 24 hours of discussion? And before they've had a chance to defend themselves? -Darouet (talk) 03:13, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Darouet: The issue and disruption is Sealioning, WP:SEALION behavior. In this case, they have been ceaselessly re-demanding that GorillaWarfare and others expend time and energy responding to the same questions that have been answered over and over again, all the way from November 3rd to now. IHateAccounts (talk) 03:21, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Darouet: 1. Your experience with Bus stop has been completely different from mine. 2. You are largely missing the point. 3. As for defending himself, he has offered no defense on his UTP, and his only "defense" here has been to continue the same "I just can't shut up" behavior that everybody is complaining about. GW calls him on it here, and what is his reply to that? More of the same! Could the evidence be any clearer that Bus stop just doesn't get it? Given the long history here, could the evidence be any clearer that Bus stop is incapable of getting it?
From a procedural perspective,
Bus stop has shown that it would have been pointless to wait. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:43, 18 November 2020 (UTC) - @Darouet: if an admin feels that a topic ban is justified and the requirements to impose such a ban under the WP:ACDS process is meet, they do not need any specific community backing/consensus for such a ban. That's the point of the process, it allows admins to act without needing a long community discussion for each case. The topic ban can be appealed by Bus stop, as with all such bans. The number of endorses complicates things a bit, but in general, Bishonen is free to reconsider the ban based solely on Bus stop's request, and arbcom themselves could be willing to modify the ban. By comparison, for a community ban, it could not be simply overturned by Bishonen, and while arbcom is I believed technically still allowed to overturn such bans my understanding is they've said they won't overturn community bans. Also appealing a community ban just after it was imposed is nearly always an instant fail, whereas it's theoretical possible an instant appeal of a DS ban will succeed. Nil Einne (talk) 12:31, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Endorse AP2 Topic ban. But I don't know if American Politics topic ban covers discussion at Talk:Parler. Liz Read! Talk! 03:27, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- It definitely does, and the discussion at issue was entirely about the presence of antisemitism and other far-right content on the platform. There's been an AP2 notice on the talk page for some time now. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:41, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- This [105] is completely bonkers.
- Ranting about Ted Cruz attacking Jack Dorsey (as if Cruz isn't your basic demagogue).
- Something about frozen peaches, I'm not really sure.
- Yet again ranting about the ledes.
- "I "bludgeoned" the Talk page to try to introduce a little fresh air into the stuffy room. To tell you the truth it's a pleasure to speak freely. If they ban me, fine. So be it."
- "Let them tell me that they admit wrongdoing for trying to make Wikipedia into a partisan screed. Then I can admit wrongdoing for "bludgeoning" the page"
- I have no words left to describe it. IHateAccounts (talk) 16:15, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- You have a strong fixation on seeing any "opponents" sanctioned. You've already been warned before so let me restate that comments such as "as if Cruz isn't your basic demagogue" is a BLP infraction and calling other editors "bonkers" is a NPA violation.--MONGO (talk) 16:27, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- First: you're wrong. Second: I did not say the editor is bonkers, I said the comment (which I linked) is bonkers. Third: as a statement of opinion regarding "a political leader who seeks support by appealing to the desires and prejudices of ordinary people rather than by using rational argument" I believe I'm on pretty safe ground here. IHateAccounts (talk) 16:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- You really do need to be a lot more careful with BLP issues. Even here calling people white supremacists is not great. PackMecEng (talk) 16:55, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- I Hate Accounts, no, you're wrong. You best read up on BLP as it applies everywhere and referring to those who are under the BLP covenant here as "demagogue" in your own voice is a BLP violation.--MONGO (talk) 17:05, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- First: you're wrong. Second: I did not say the editor is bonkers, I said the comment (which I linked) is bonkers. Third: as a statement of opinion regarding "a political leader who seeks support by appealing to the desires and prejudices of ordinary people rather than by using rational argument" I believe I'm on pretty safe ground here. IHateAccounts (talk) 16:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- You have a strong fixation on seeing any "opponents" sanctioned. You've already been warned before so let me restate that comments such as "as if Cruz isn't your basic demagogue" is a BLP infraction and calling other editors "bonkers" is a NPA violation.--MONGO (talk) 16:27, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Endorse AP2 Ban Bus Stop definitely has a bludgeoning style of debate (regurgitating ones' arguments and asking odd questions about that which causes discussions to go in circles) and while I don't edit many AP2-related pages, this comes up on the WP-space pages where AP2 factors come into play - BLP/N, Jimmy Wales' talk page, etc. policy pages, etc. Assessments above related to highly partisan editing and not using those discussions to try to come to consensus but continue to push a point are my experience, and reviewing the talk page of Parler shows the same problems (mind you, I see valid points raised on neutrality and tone but Bus Stop is going at it all wrong). --Masem (t) 16:34, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Site ban now BS has just violated his TBAN on his talk page. This has been a long time coming. It's time to stop wasting community time and resources on this. SPECIFICO talk 16:41, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose site ban but a 1 week block including talk page might work nicely as a cool down period. I've looked over the Parlor lead. It clearly fails IMPARTIAL but the general editorial atmosphere there is too toxic to bother with. I understand why an editor would be pissed. It also doesn't help that IHateAccouts seems to be campaigning for action against Bus Stop [[106]]. Clearly Bus Stop's emotions are up. Let them come back when they calm down a bit. Springee (talk) 16:52, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Not "campaigning". Commiserating with someone else who has had to deal with Bus Stop's Sealioning. IHateAccounts (talk) 16:59, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) IHateAccounts is fairly new to the project and has been to an extent using me as a sounding board to get a feel for the norms of the project (when to raise an issue at a noticeboard, when to let it go, etc.) Given the topic areas we both edit in, it's a tough place to dive in, and I think they've been wise to do what they're doing rather than just barging in headfirst at noticeboards etc. where there are a lot of "unwritten rules". IHA is perfectly aware that I am WP:INVOLVED with Bus stop and not going to take action with respect to them, and their comments on my talk page are not asking me to take action. They've primarily been using my talk page to get feedback on their concerns, which I think should be encouraged, as well as to vent a little bit on what has been an extremely frustrating experience on the talk page of the article. It should be noted, while we are on the subject of people campaigning for action, that you have seemed to be doing some of the same with respect to IHA, based on your recent comments at their talk page, followup at valereee's talk page, and now here. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:01, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- My comments on their talk page and later on Valereee's talk page were related to their civility issues. The original post to their page was in reply to interacting with them on other discussion sections. I'm not the only editor who has noted their civility standards. Springee (talk) 17:11, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- GW, IHateAccounts is not fairly new as they were around long enough to IP hop for some time before they created this account. It's nice they did create an account as now its easier to make sure they are compliant with our policies.--MONGO (talk) 17:16, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- I am quite familiar with IHateAccounts' editing as an IP; I was one of the people who encouraged them to create an account while also trying to remind our editors that there is no requirement one do so. I was including their time as an IP editor when describing them as "fairly new". GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:18, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Springee, it should be abundantly clear by now that this discussion is no longer about recent behavior at one article. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:33, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- This. I may have some agreements in where Bus Stop is taking his arguments in terms of the tendency for articles in that area of the political spectrum to have poor NPOV wording and tone and where its hard to get traction with the editors that heavily edit them, but the way Bus Stop has argued for that throughout several cases is bludgeoning and the fact that they turned right around after been AP2 banned to add more AP2 shows a bit of IDIDNTHEARTHAT, which is common to numerous past discussions. This is more disruptive than helpful at this point. --Masem (t) 18:24, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Endorse AP2 ban as per Beyond My Ken's concerns. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 17:07, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- I oppose sanctions for violating the topic ban at this time. Re the suggestions here that Bus stop is violating his topic ban in his comments here and on his page: I disagree. To be topic banned from a major area is a shock. When users are blocked, we tend to tolerate venting and angry comments about the block — I know I do — and the same principle should apply to topic bans. I won't sanction Bus stop for anything he has said in this thread or on his page so far, and I hope nobody else does either. If he were to post a lot of drawn-out commentary/discussion infringing on the AP area, instead of appealing the ban, that would be a different situation. But we're not there yet. And, Springee, I see your point, but we don't do "cooldown blocks". Bishonen | tålk 17:19, 18 November 2020 (UTC).
- I just wanted to +1 this. Although I was surprised to see Bus stop continue the exact line of argument that led to this topic ban, we do usually allow a little leeway to editors venting a bit about a major sanction. If it continues for a protracted period of time or they continue on editing AP2 articles/their talk pages as if there was no topic ban, that would be a different story, but I don't think an immediate sanction would do anyone any good here. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:26, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
Masem, you write I may have some agreements in where Bus Stop is taking his arguments in terms of the tendency for articles in that area of the political spectrum to have poor NPOV wording and tone and where its hard to get traction with the editors that heavily edit them, but the way Bus Stop has argued for that throughout several cases is bludgeoning and the fact that they turned right around after been AP2 banned to add more AP2 shows a bit of IDIDNTHEARTHAT, which is common to numerous past discussions.
First of all nice sentence. I couldn't have written a longer sentence myself. Did I bludgeon the Talk page of BitChute? I don't think so. A light bulb went off in my head when, subsequent to the BitChute experience, I saw something very similar happening at Parler. The parallels were striking: another second-tier social media article with everything but the kitchen sink in the way of criticism in the lede. I'm not sure what "several cases"
you have in mind, Masem. But the immediate precedent and the case I had in mind in my argumentation on the Parler Talk page was the BitChute article. I wanted to stem the trend. Bus stop (talk) 20:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
Blocked editor Abbas Kwarbai threatening Velella
- Abbas Kwarbai (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I've been checking Abbas Kwarbai's talk page every once in a while, and while they've been incredibly frustrated with the circumstances of some of their articles being speedily deleted, there are some wildly inappropriate messages being left on their talk page being addressed to Velella.
Diffs
Diffs have been revdeled by Kinu.
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Recommendation
No one deserves to receive that kind of abuse on here (even if the threats are being directed to a cnidarian). At this point I think a revocation of talk page access or a site ban would be needed. If admins see any possible redemption that will work, though with Abbas' ire that may need to be considered a long time from now. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 09:00, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
Comments
Many thanks Tenryuu for your report. I was about to report it here myself but you beat me to the draw. It quite made my little blue tentacles quiver. I think blocking of talk page access to all in this sock farm would be the appropriate solution. Velella Velella Talk 09:07, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- I've revoked talk page access and removed the offending WP:NPA violations. Clearly that is the least that should happen here. --Kinu t/c 09:18, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
Cunard Afd Practices
Hi, I want to make a complaint about User:Cunard and they’re series of behaviours at Afd, specifically the mass dumping of reams of text. I don’t normally complain about an editor. I think this is my first time. I think I have reached my limit. This after two years looking at this. I stopped taking part any of Afds that Cunard has been at. About a year ago, they’re was a VPN article, which is a dog of a company. Now we have an article, that people will assume is good, even though they were at absolute bottom of the ranking, about 3500 down the list. That was the limit at the time. This is absolute limit. I think it is simply unacceptable to dump huge blocks of text in this manner. The most recent example I came across is a Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zocdoc. I don’t think Cunard really cares of about Afd. I suspect his whole purpose is to ensure the article is kept, even at the expense of destroying the whole conversation. Looking at Zocdoc article.
It an advertisement. So they’re posting anything to stop the conversation, assuming folk are going to put off reading it because there is 16k of text here. That would take more than 10 hours of work if it was article being created. Instead he/she has copied it wholesale out of the website, which is itself a violation of copyright. Nobody wants to read this text. If is effectively a stop on the discussion. This is another example. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Conrad Bangkok. Not a single one of these references are valid. More so, there is 39 of these hotels, so in effect this is an attempt to break the Afd. It has chilling effect on new Afd participants, who look at it, and crap out. I know that for a fact. It has a chilling effect on established editors, because it takes so long to work through the text and determine if it valid and often it is not. When the Afd is closed, the closer isn’t reading the text either, so it breaking the close function. scope_creepTalk 09:48, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- I too have found the gigantic walls of text to be offputting, and anyone habitually !voting delete with comments of such extreme length would have been blocked or topic banned ages ago. But is there anything stopping you from just ignoring it, scrolling to the bottom, and putting in a vote of your own? It's not like anyone is forcing you to read through it, and it's not as though you'd be missing anything of value by ignoring it. It's basically Wikipedia lorem ipsum. Reyk YO! 10:29, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- I removed the quote blocks from two open AfDs: having 10K of quotes is problematic for copyright reasons, and didn't really add anything. However, these were pre-hatted, so took up little space in reading mode (they were annoying in editing mode). The addition of lots of sources to AfDs is what we expect editors to do, so I see no problem there (assuming they are good sources, which I haven't checked). Fram (talk) 11:12, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- July 2020 ANI for same issue —valereee (talk) 11:34, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- Bizzare to see this complaint. For over 10 years I recall being stunned by the quality & quantity of hard to find RSs Cunnard brings to AfD's. As Fram says, it's expected from good editors, though none seem to do it quite as well as Cunnard. FeydHuxtable (talk) 12:16, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- No one is saying he/she is not doing good work in other areas, but this is ridiculous and its errant behaviour and disruptive. scope_creepTalk 12:19, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- It is the equivalent of reference-bombing an article to mask the overall weaknesses of the sources. I doubt many closing administrators take the text walls seriously. ValarianB (talk) 13:10, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- Kudos to Cunard for their efforts. Consider the Zocdoc AfD, which is the basis of the complaint. First notice that the AfD had to be relisted because there were zero valid responses during the first round. Cunard then stepped up to do what no-one else would volunteer for and their input is outstanding. For example, they list an NYT source that seems to really hit the spot in demonstrating notability. And notice that they don't just give a raw URL which might hit the paywall but go the extra mile by providing an archive link. This is quality work and Cunard should be congratulated on their diligence.
- The OP complains that they have to read this material. This is an absurd complaint because, per WP:BEFORE, a nominator is supposed to conduct such a detailed source search before they waste our time with an inaccurate nomination. If the OP is failing to do this work and can't even be bothered to look through the sources when they are presented on a plate, then they are not doing due diligence. A boomerang should be considered.
- Andrew🐉(talk) 13:21, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- Oh for goodness sake. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Conrad Bangkok and look at the !votes.
- 11:19 - User:scope_creep points out that most of the sources are press releases and similar.
- 11:44 - User:Andrew Davidson votes "Keep" for no reason other than someone quotes an essay. No rebuttal of the sources.
- 12:02 - User:FeydHuxtable votes "Keep", saying "highly notable hotel as ably demonstrated by Cunard".
- This nonsense is never going to end, is it? Black Kite (talk) 13:29, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- What the nay-sayers seem to be saying is that, if you list sources it's bad, and if you don't list sources, it's bad too. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Andrew🐉(talk) 13:40, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- No what the people who have deal with cunards wall of useless texts is that A)if you post sources to refute notability, they should be good, not a bunch of regurgitated PR crap scraped from a Google search. B)if you are going to just vote keep you should actually address the core concern, not rules lawyer over reference to essays, c)if you are going to vote 'keep as per list of crap' you should address the concerns with that crap. Since as black kite has demonstrated it is impossible to get editors to do this, ideally people closing the diacussion would rightly disregard such arguments. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:36, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- (EC) AFAICT, no one is saying that. What they are saying is that listing bad or crap sources is bad. Note I make no personal comment on whether any of the sources are bad/crap sources. I simply read what others said and tried understand what they were saying. Editors may disagree, perhaps strongly, on whether the sources are bad or crap, while still understanding (and probably agreeing) on the overall point. (I.E. that just because someone listed URLs doesn't mean these are useful reliable secondary sources that demonstrate meeting WP:GNG.) I can see why there may be a problem if you couldn't understand the point Black Kite and others seemed to be making, rather than simply disagreeing with their view of the sources. Nil Einne (talk) 14:40, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- Christ. This is the Wikipedia equivalent of technobabble. Nothing actionable about it, unfortunately, but I certainly don't agree with Andrew on a boomerang. Seriously, we need to stop throwing rocks at people for bringing legitimate concerns up to ANI.--WaltCip-(talk) 13:41, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with WaltCip that this is a valid issue to bring up at ANI. I'm not sure why it wouldn't be actionable in the (looks to be unlikely) case we were able to develop consensus; the most productive editor can also be very disruptive. Anything that other experienced, well-intentioned editors are finding disruptive enough to bring two cases to ANI in four months is maybe at least worth making clear to Cunard that this is being seen as disruptive and they should try to avoid 1. posting walls of text 2. quoting carelessly collected sources 3. including copyvio to AfDs. —valereee (talk) 14:52, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- Cunard does legwork that we want people to do for an AfD, finding what sources exist. It was a problem when he took up a massive amount of space in the discussion. Now that nearly all of the content is hatted, I have no issue whatsoever with the practice. Yes, Cunard always goes for keep ... and is about the only one of the always-keepers that actually backs up that opinion with sourcing. Sometimes those sources are misguided, but often they're not. Looking at ZocDoc AfD, I see NY Times, Wall Street Journal, journal articles, etc. Those aren't garbage. Yes, you're free to respond/challenge those sources and it's entirely possible they don't constitute notability (I haven't looked closely at them yet), but these aren't self-published press releases/spam. They're the kind of thing that anyone would find if they set out looking for sourcing, and which you should expect to have to counter if you're arguing to delete. We have plenty of people who fill AfD with baseless keep (or delete) !votes based on handwaves to sources or personal interpretations of notability with no effort whatsoever. The problem is not someone who does the research. The copyvio claim is IMO a big stretch, and I'm surprised anyone is willing to act on it without finding consensus that including a limited quote, with attribution, is a copyright violation (or that including multiple quotes from multiple sources for some reason makes it worse). — Rhododendrites talk \\ 15:29, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- I don't call e.g. a 268 word quote a "limited quote" (see the first quote I removed here, it's about 1/4th of the full article. In the second AfD I pruned, the first quote was 198 words[107]. The Brownlee quote was 249 words, from a 590 word article. That's not a "limited quote" at all, that's excessive. And yes, adding more and more quotes makes it less and less defensible to claim fair use and brings it closer to being a copyright violation. (Note that I have only removed these from the two most recent AfDs, but the practice can be found in many older ones, like a 360-word quote at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Carmel Art Association, many long quotes at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Street Medicine Institute... Regularly adding 10kb+ of quotes to AfDs is not an acceptable practice. Fram (talk) 15:58, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- From where are you getting the idea that 268 words, 1/4 of a work, or 249 out of 590 words, are excessive? Lev¡vich 16:30, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- If I would write an article and someone would copy 1/4 or 1/3rd of it, not even to comment on the quote (e.g. criticising what I wrote or praising the prose), but simply to strengthen a point they are making, then I would consider this as clearly excessive. When someone routinely does this, even more so. There is no hard-and-fast rule for this, ut if 1/4th isn't excessive to you, then what is? Anyway, looking online gives rules of thumb like "max 300 words from a book-length work", or "best at the most 10-20% for a short work". Fram (talk) 16:53, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter what you would consider or what I would consider. Neither of us are experts or authorities on copyright law. You are expressing personal views/assumptions/results of online research, none of which make a good basis for claims about copyright law. In other words, if you don't know what the rules are... Lev¡vich 17:11, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- There's so much wrong with that response... For starters, there is no hard-and-fast rule, that's the main issue with fair use application. Wikipedia has historically treated this much stricter than required by law, see e.g. our fair use rules for images which don't even allow such images on an article talk page even if you would discuss it, nor in a draft article. And then, when I do try to find some outside guidance, from things like Stanford Uni, it still isn't acceptable and even those aren't a "good basis". I would like to see you propose an alternative then. Would quoting 99% of a copyrighted book (with attribution) be acceptable to you? 75%? 50%? 25%? Where and how do you draw the line? Or are you proposing not drawing a line at all and letting people quote as much as they like, as long as they use quote marks and attribution? That won't fly. We have to draw a line somewhere, and posting more than 1/4 of a work is generally (and by me) considered excessive (just like posting many long quotes is more excessive than just posting one, as there is less and less need to post additional quotes, so less and less justification of "fair use"). If you can't suggest some better alternative, if you can't actually indicate what the rules are and what is or isn't acceptable then, then I will continue with that rule of thumb. Fram (talk) 09:08, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter what you would consider or what I would consider. Neither of us are experts or authorities on copyright law. You are expressing personal views/assumptions/results of online research, none of which make a good basis for claims about copyright law. In other words, if you don't know what the rules are... Lev¡vich 17:11, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- If I would write an article and someone would copy 1/4 or 1/3rd of it, not even to comment on the quote (e.g. criticising what I wrote or praising the prose), but simply to strengthen a point they are making, then I would consider this as clearly excessive. When someone routinely does this, even more so. There is no hard-and-fast rule for this, ut if 1/4th isn't excessive to you, then what is? Anyway, looking online gives rules of thumb like "max 300 words from a book-length work", or "best at the most 10-20% for a short work". Fram (talk) 16:53, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- From where are you getting the idea that 268 words, 1/4 of a work, or 249 out of 590 words, are excessive? Lev¡vich 16:30, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- I don't call e.g. a 268 word quote a "limited quote" (see the first quote I removed here, it's about 1/4th of the full article. In the second AfD I pruned, the first quote was 198 words[107]. The Brownlee quote was 249 words, from a 590 word article. That's not a "limited quote" at all, that's excessive. And yes, adding more and more quotes makes it less and less defensible to claim fair use and brings it closer to being a copyright violation. (Note that I have only removed these from the two most recent AfDs, but the practice can be found in many older ones, like a 360-word quote at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Carmel Art Association, many long quotes at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Street Medicine Institute... Regularly adding 10kb+ of quotes to AfDs is not an acceptable practice. Fram (talk) 15:58, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'm surprised people are complaining about him listing coverage it gets, and even quoting the relevant parts so you don't have to click on each one to go and read it. This is rather helpful in an AFD. And it doesn't violate copyright laws to quote something for this purpose, this clearly fair usage, it not in the main article just in a deletion discussion. Dream Focus 16:44, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- Uh, "quoting the relevant parts so you don't have to click on each one to go and read it." is definitely not a fair use defense. That's it is in an AfD and not in an article also doesn't make it better, e.g. fair use images are only allowed in articles and not anywhere else, including in AfDs. Fram (talk) 16:53, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- Listing sources and quotes is helpful (I don't agree the quoting is copyvio). The ZocDoc AFD is a bad example for this: the sources Cunard listed include NYT and WaPo; while I quibble about one or two sources on Cunard's list there, overall they seem solid. Conrad Bangkok is a bit more difficult to parse: lots of travel guides and such, which I don't think make for good sources. Still, if we cover hotels (and we do), travel guides and hotel reviews are going to be sources for those articles, just like book reviews are sources for articles about books. I think both of Cunard's lists would have been stronger if they had 5 items instead of 10, and that would be my big suggestion to Cunard: do lists of 3 or 5 instead of 10. If you're listing NYT and WaPo, don't list things like Entrepreneur and NYObserver: they actually weaken rather than strengthen the list. But, this isn't ANI-worthy. Yes, there are problems with churnalism and promo articles surviving AFDs, but these two are bad examples (better examples: bagelry, toy store, lawyer), and I think !votes without sources and quotes are a much bigger problem than someone !voting with "too many" sources and quotes. We should encourage sources and quotes at AFD, not discourage it. Lev¡vich 17:11, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
I don't agree the quoting is copyvio
. Well, to quote you:It doesn't matter what you would consider
. Hold yourself to the same standard. Mr rnddude (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2020 (UTC)- No evidence has been presented supporting the copyvio claim. Better? Lev¡vich 17:42, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- For the sake of not pressing it further. Sure. Mr rnddude (talk) 18:15, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- What reams of text, User:scope_creep? I see a list of references. I feel guilty now for just providing links, instead of such well formatted lists of references. Personally, I'd be more concerned by the first delete vote at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Conrad Bangkok, that once again, did 7 delete votes in 7 minutes, which quite clearly means they did not do the required due diligence. I'm also concerned you aren't doing enough WP:BEFORE nominating. Nfitz (talk) 18:35, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- Fram has removed the quote walls, you'll have to check page history. (E.g. this) Mr rnddude (talk) 18:37, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- Ah, I see. But boxed. Not sure they needed to be removed - small amounts of quoted text should run afoul of copyright - though perhaps some were a bit long - not quite sure where that line is. At the same time - I don't even see anyone posting on Cunard's talk page in month, and only a single post there since summer! Has User:scope_creep tried to discuss this before coming here? Cunard in the past has been dragged to ANI (see Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1042#User:Cunard, rather unnecessarily in my view, and now has added quotes to demonstrate the RS. And now there's complaints about that. To me, this looks more like an attempt to bully an editor that one doesn't agree with, than anything real. Nfitz (talk) 18:59, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- Fram has removed the quote walls, you'll have to check page history. (E.g. this) Mr rnddude (talk) 18:37, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- First of all, I find User:Cunard to be one of the single best contributors to AfD. I find that he makes it really really easy for me to evaluate sources. He provides great detail and finds sources that I can't find even after looking for 10+ minutes. Secondly, in the worst case, just hat it. Third, I'm not a lawyer, but I do teach copyright law as a part of my job. With my understanding of fair use, it is really really unlikely that this wouldn't count as fair use. Really. If copied onto a commercial site (which our licence allows) and if indexed in a way that made it so that one could easily find the quote when looking for the article? Then it *might* get debatable and I'd recommend to anyone who asked me to contact a lawyer. In any case, I see no problem with what he posted. I *do* see a problem with Fram's reversion. He shouldn't be editing someone else's text. If he really thinks there is a copyright problem, he should be asking for it to be removed from the history too I should think. There is a whole template and set of directions for dealing with copyright issues. See [108]Hobit (talk) 00:10, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Removing copyright violations / excessive fair use without taking further action is often done. Yes, one can go the extra mile and ask for revdel of the revisions, but in this (and many other) cases that would be overkill. People removing fair use images from pages where they aren't allowed usually don't bother with revdel and so on either. As for the fair use, remember that we are and have always been way more strict than what may be necessary by law. Fram (talk) 09:08, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Images and text are two unrelated things. Images aren't allowed unless you can prove its necessary, and reduced to be as low quality as possible, this is for server load reasons. There is nothing wrong with quoting parts of a news article in a deletion discussion to prove it gives coverage to something. Dream Focus 12:37, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- "For server load reasons"? So somehow free images don't produce server load issues, but fair use one do? That sounds rather unlikely, anything to back up your claim? Fram (talk) 12:56, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- You can check this at WP:FILESIZE, your claim is totally wrong. Fram (talk) 12:58, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Huh, I stand corrected. Exception: If the image is copyrighted and used under fair use, the uploaded image must be as low-resolution as possible consistent with its fair-use rationale, to prevent use of Wikipedia's copy as a substitute for the original work. Anyway, as far as the text goes https://www.copyright.gov/fair-use/more-info.html explains it quite well. So you need to undo your incorrect removal of text. Dream Focus 15:29, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- That link doesn't indicate that my removals were correct or incorrect, it basically boils down to "it depends" and "every judge can decide on their own" (no, this is not a legal threat, I wouldn't start a legal case over extremely blatant copyright violations, never mind over these good-faith borderline cases, and I doubt anyone else would). There is no fixed, easy-to-use rule, that's why you can find all kinds of advice in books and online (from good sources); but if they do give numerical values, then 10-20% or 300-400 words (whichever is less) seems to be often used as a rule of thumb. The quotefarms I removed violated this at least in part. See also Masem's comment below, who is kind of an in-house copyright expert (together with User:Diannaa and some others I now forget, User:MER-C probably as well). Fram (talk) 16:01, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Huh, I stand corrected. Exception: If the image is copyrighted and used under fair use, the uploaded image must be as low-resolution as possible consistent with its fair-use rationale, to prevent use of Wikipedia's copy as a substitute for the original work. Anyway, as far as the text goes https://www.copyright.gov/fair-use/more-info.html explains it quite well. So you need to undo your incorrect removal of text. Dream Focus 15:29, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Images and text are two unrelated things. Images aren't allowed unless you can prove its necessary, and reduced to be as low quality as possible, this is for server load reasons. There is nothing wrong with quoting parts of a news article in a deletion discussion to prove it gives coverage to something. Dream Focus 12:37, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Removing copyright violations / excessive fair use without taking further action is often done. Yes, one can go the extra mile and ask for revdel of the revisions, but in this (and many other) cases that would be overkill. People removing fair use images from pages where they aren't allowed usually don't bother with revdel and so on either. As for the fair use, remember that we are and have always been way more strict than what may be necessary by law. Fram (talk) 09:08, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- For notability AFDs I would always take at least 15 minutes to analyse the article and its possible references – sometimes I take far longer. Now, I realise some people just throw in a !vote one way or another but I hope, for substantial articles, those swaying the final close will have done considerable work. Therefore "it takes so long to work through the text and determine if it valid and often it is not" puzzles me. Surely anyone nominating or supporting deletion will have gone through such references already and will know which are unsuitable in their view. You do not need to study them all over again. For some matters other than notability, such as promotionalism, it may be possible to take a view without studying large numbers of references and you can quickly skip over any suggested list of references. An invalid deletion harms the encyclopedia and can sometimes be devastating for editors who have put in hours of work creating it. It is not something that should be done in a hurry. I welcome Cunard's work and have found it helpful on AFDs I have tackled. Thincat (talk) 09:57, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- This doesn't look as though it is going anywhere. Discussion on Afd protocol are really redundant, as everybody is different. I read very fast and there is various shortcuts you can employ to shorten the time further, so a function of time to evaluate Afd isn't particularly valuable. There is no qualitative comparison that can be made between two editors. I stick to one type of Afd, on the whole, so its even further different. I see a lot of folk supporting Cunard, he is an excellent editor, but this isn't the first time this has been reported, which I didn't know. So there is dissatisfaction, obviously various groups. If it not addressed, I will need to go further. scope_creepTalk 12:35, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- If you don't get what you want, you will "need to go further" and repeat this same thing again when you think the random group of editors to notice and comment might agree with you? He has done nothing wrong, and should not be discouraged from helping people sort through the evidence that an article meets the notability standards. Dream Focus 12:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- That depends. Sometimes his sources are useful. sometimes they are not great. If they could be useful all the time, there'd be no issues. And certainly, people block !voting "Keep" and quoting sources that aren't any good is a problem. Black Kite (talk) 15:30, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- If you don't get what you want, you will "need to go further" and repeat this same thing again when you think the random group of editors to notice and comment might agree with you? He has done nothing wrong, and should not be discouraged from helping people sort through the evidence that an article meets the notability standards. Dream Focus 12:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- I think the issue is the excessive quoting. Providing N sources at an AFD when challenged (where they then are discussed if they are good or bad) is absolutely fine, and should be part of an AFD process. But there is no need for the large quotes from those sources as well, as that does veer on the copyright/fair use problem - this is part of our WP:NFC policy. Let the !voters review and make comments and if a specific source becomes the subject of debate, brief quotes can be used then but they are almost certainly not needed upfront when providing the sources (as in the Zocdoc AFD). But as for dumping a list of sources they found in AFD? Great. It would be nice if they had a bit more awareness of what are poor sources like press releases and the like that would be dismissed immediately for notability concerns, but that itself is less an ANI than the large quotes leaning into copyright. --Masem (t) 15:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
Uesr:Mulman82
Please delete remove the following edits by Mulman82 (talk · contribs · central auth · count · email) who is taking deletion discussions personally and responding with vague threats of violence, accusation of pedophilia and homophobic slurs.
- Delaware Black Foxes
- My user page (not sure how to show diff for page creation)
Ytoyoda (talk) 14:16, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- I deleted your User page, as the only edits were those edits, and revdel'd the edit summaries on the Delaware Black Foxes page. I've also blocked the user for a month for those gross attacks, as they were recently blocked for 2 weeks for sockpuppetry. RickinBaltimore (talk) 14:26, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
Outside of the user issue concerns, I've contested the prod; please take to AfD. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 17:18, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
TPA removal
2600:1001:B10C:2557:80A6:46FB:C398:BFB6 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) 2600:1001:B100:0:0:0:0:0/42 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · block user · block log) Please remove TPA. Amongst other things:
Victor Schmidt (talk) 18:53, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- Gah. It's a /42 and it expires tomorrow, so it might be best if a CU looks at it. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 19:06, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- It doesn't expire until January 18. However, pinging @TonyBallioni: as the blocking admin/CU. Black Kite (talk) 19:34, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- Pretty sure that wasn’t the target, but I went ahead and extended it for a year without TPA. If I recall there were multiple issues on the range and if we’re having disruption that’s ongoing without any massive collateral extending it works. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:50, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
User adding unsourced content to Donald B. Gillies and reverting edits which remove it
A user (SystemBuilder) has been adding unsourced content to Donald B. Gillies. Example diff. I have asked them to stop as per WP:CHALLENGE as their material is likely to be challenged. They then posted a rather rude message on my talk page saying that he was his dad and there are no sources to support their material. I then said that this material shouldn't be added at all. To avoid 3RR sanctions, I have stopped reverting their edits and would appreciate if someone else would get involved. Eyebeller (talk) 19:54, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
I am adding references. Please don't be such a dick, who do you think wrote 100% of that article to begin with? SystemBuilder (talk) 20:20, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- SystemBuilder, the references you have added were only for one section; the challenged material is still unsourced. I have reverted your edits again; please don't edit war, especially not over content that, in its present form, violates WP:BLP. Best, Blablubbs (talk • contribs) 20:53, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- Blablubbs, the subject appears to have been deceased since 1975, so it should be clarified that WP:BLP may not apply directly to this article. However, the edits do violate verifiability and no original research, and I have left the user a message explaining these policies as well as a warning about edit warring. Mz7 (talk) 21:14, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- "who do you think wrote 100% of that article to begin with?" Just gonna drop WP:OWN here. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:12, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
Edits by AndyCBaer
Can someone else please take a look at edits by User:AndyCBaer? Based on recent reverts and talk page discussions, they don't seem too interested in following rules. This edit summary suggests they'd like to report me, so I invite them to say what they see fit. Thanks, --Another Believer (Talk) 01:36, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Drmies: Making you aware of this discussion because of your edit while I was writing the above comments. ---Another Believer (Talk) 01:38, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- I saw your edit summary and am not surprised. I think this editor is on a dangerous path. I saw their rude and combative comments, their fluffy and unencyclopedic edits--this is not going to go well. Drmies (talk) 01:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- (non admin comment) These ESs 1 2 trend towards WP:NLT, and suggest indifferent understanding of US copyright law. Narky Blert (talk) 05:56, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- I saw your edit summary and am not surprised. I think this editor is on a dangerous path. I saw their rude and combative comments, their fluffy and unencyclopedic edits--this is not going to go well. Drmies (talk) 01:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
38.18.118.10
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- 38.18.118.10 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
Vandalising a high-visibility BLP. Already reported to AIV, AIV/TB2, and RPP, but we're up to more than a page two pages full of edits and reverts now. Thanks! Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 03:25, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- This is exhausting and needs to be stopped at once! GPinkerton (talk) 03:48, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
Article in question has also been semi-protected for a week by Liz. —valereee (talk) 11:40, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
User:AlsoWukai
I have previously raised my issue with this user at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Wukai, as I thought it may have been appropriate, but it appears not to be an example of sockpuppetry. I'm repeating the text here to bring it to the attention of Wiki admin staff.
I recently edited Rashida Tlaib to make a small improvement to the grammar, as I believe that starting sentences with the word "but" does not fit the tone of Wikipedia articles. I also added a comma to help make the text more readable. User:AlsoWukai reverted the edit several days later, contravening the policy at Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary: "For a reversion to be appropriate, the reverted edit must actually make the article worse." I have tried to discuss this matter at the Usertalk page: User_talk:AlsoWukai#Rashida_Tlaib. As the user has contravened the reversion policy, I reverted back to my original edit. Less than a day later, that edit has been reverted again, this time by User:Wukai, with the unhelpful tag "that's just, like, your opinion, man" (isn't this the kind of thing a teenager would write in high school, not a professional editor?). I don't think this is the kind of civilised discourse we are meant to be using on Wikipedia, nor is the tag placed by the associated account when editing their User_talk:AlsoWukai page - "get over it!" : https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AAlsoWukai&type=revision&diff=988257002&oldid=988156294 Again, this has a rather hostile tone. In any case, User:AlsoWukai has reverted my edit unnecessarily twice, once with their current account of that name, and then using their older account, User:Wukai. The User:AlsoWukai page states "I am the user formerly known as User:Wukai. For unknown reasons I am no longer able to log into that account on my desktop or laptop." The same person also needlessly reverted my minor grammatical edit to Sirhan Sirhan a couple of years ago, which, again, was unwarranted. The latest addition to our discussion reads: "Your sense of the 'tone of Wikipedia' seems to be nothing more than a misguided aversion to beginning sentences with conjunctions. Please get over it." This user has had problems with edit warring before, it appears, and objects to the grammar employed by other users. The kind of hostile, casual language utilised by User:AlsoWukai/User:Wukai isn't helpful to Wikipedia, and I personally find it unpleasant, so I'm bringing this behaviour to the attention of Wikipedia administrators. --TrottieTrue (talk) 04:00, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- TrottieTrue, since the two accounts are openly connected, there doesn't appear to be any problem from a socking point of view.
- With regard to the reverts, have I understood this correctly: you reverted each other a couple of times a week ago, Wukai used a dismissive edit summary, and they reverted you once a couple of years back? Is there anything else in the way of improper conduct?
- From where I'm sitting, there's not anything that warrants administrative action here. While it would have been preferable for them to have discussed the sentence construction on the talk page rather than reverting you, they didn't press it after you reinstated your edit, and haven't touched the page in over a week. Unless there is a history of disruption that you haven't mentioned, we're not going to block someone for an errant revert or two with mildly unprofessional edit summaries.
- We don't rule on content disputes on this board, so the question of whether or not it's better to use 'But' or 'However,' to start a sentence can't be resolved here. I would use the latter myself, but that's really something to discuss on article talk, or to look for guidance in the MOS about. GirthSummit (blether) 06:58, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- As a former English major, "but" vs "however," is probably the sort of question that is unanswerable, or one that English majors debate endlessly. Is there anything in the WP:MOS? May I suggest, "on the other hand"? "Despite the forgoing," has a nice ring to it if it fits the context. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 08:22, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- In Scotland and Ireland, many people actually end a sentence with "but" in the same way you might end a sentence with a trailing "however", but. Cnbrb (talk) 08:28, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- O, tempora! O, mores! --Deepfriedokra (talk) 08:49, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Gen. ii.6, KJV. Narky Blert (talk) 11:10, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Deepfriedokra: surely these phrases are all covered (except for "on the other hand"} in WP:EDITORIAL as words to watch? Doug Weller talk 11:20, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Doug Weller, I was going to say the same thing. Starting that sentence with any of these is subtle editorializing. —valereee (talk) 11:38, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Girth_Summit The use of "but" or "however" to start a sentence wasn't really why I brought this issue to ANI. It seems to me that the tone of Wikipedia is that of an encyclopedia, in which "however" is preferable to "but" in starting a sentence. It just doesn't sound right to me on Wikipedia, having read and edited many other articles over the years. However (!), that isn't really the issue here. The user in question reverted the edit, contravening the policy at Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary. My edit did not make the article worse, and therefore did not need to be reverted. I reverted it back, and they then used their old account to revert again. A second reversion of an edit which doesn't make the article worse strikes me as being petty for the sake of it. I did not want to go into edit warring, so I decided to rewrite the article text in a different way, which also removed the "but" and added the comma I had inserted. That edit seems to have been left alone.
- Doug Weller, I was going to say the same thing. Starting that sentence with any of these is subtle editorializing. —valereee (talk) 11:38, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Deepfriedokra: surely these phrases are all covered (except for "on the other hand"} in WP:EDITORIAL as words to watch? Doug Weller talk 11:20, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Gen. ii.6, KJV. Narky Blert (talk) 11:10, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- O, tempora! O, mores! --Deepfriedokra (talk) 08:49, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- In Scotland and Ireland, many people actually end a sentence with "but" in the same way you might end a sentence with a trailing "however", but. Cnbrb (talk) 08:28, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- As a former English major, "but" vs "however," is probably the sort of question that is unanswerable, or one that English majors debate endlessly. Is there anything in the WP:MOS? May I suggest, "on the other hand"? "Despite the forgoing," has a nice ring to it if it fits the context. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 08:22, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- I did the same on Sirhan Sirhan recently, which the user had reverted for a similar reason. I also modified the text for that article in a way which avoided merely replacing "but" with "however" at the start of a sentence. On certain articles which Wukai is presumably watching, replacing "but" with "however" at the start of sentences seems to trigger the user reverting the edit.
- At User_talk:Wukai#Starting sentences with conjunctions, I found a previous incident over the "but" vs "however" issue, in which Wukai had been outvoted. When I replied and pointed this out, Wukai answered with "That's just, like, your opinion, man." This is the kind of dismissive passive-aggressive tone a school student might use. You say that "they didn't press it after you reinstated your edit", which isn't the case - my reversion was re-reverted by Wukai, rather than AlsoWukai. I'm not suggesting blocking the user, but that their inappropriate behaviour needs to be looked at. --TrottieTrue (talk) 18:39, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- TrottieTrue, be aware that the essay you cite is just that - it's one person's advice, not a policy. Also, a prior discussion on their talk page about the question of starting a sentence in that manner has no weight at all - user talk pages are not a place to discuss editorial best practice. Again, for the matter of the content dispute, while I agree with your position, that is a question either for the article talk page or, more generally, the MOS. As for the tone of the commentary, it's not ideal, but high school students are welcome to edit here, I'm not going to sanction someone for sounding like one.
- As for the question of whether they should use two accounts in one discussion - it's not that unusual, provided the disclosure is clear and they do not attempt to use it to game an edit war, I'm not uncomfortable with it. If there are cases of misuse, I'd be happy to investigate. GirthSummit (blether) 20:41, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- At User_talk:Wukai#Starting sentences with conjunctions, I found a previous incident over the "but" vs "however" issue, in which Wukai had been outvoted. When I replied and pointed this out, Wukai answered with "That's just, like, your opinion, man." This is the kind of dismissive passive-aggressive tone a school student might use. You say that "they didn't press it after you reinstated your edit", which isn't the case - my reversion was re-reverted by Wukai, rather than AlsoWukai. I'm not suggesting blocking the user, but that their inappropriate behaviour needs to be looked at. --TrottieTrue (talk) 18:39, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- This minor edit war seems to have been resolved with some improved wording. However, Wukai is a very hostile and non-collaborative editor prone to endless edit-wars even over things of little consequence, and also has a habit of using his/her alternate account to edit war with, in an apparent attempt to evade 3RR when edit-warring with lesser-informed people. One of those accounts should be permanently shut down so that this does not happen anymore. And Wukai should be warned about continued hostility and non-collaborativeness.
TrottieTrue, keep discussion of content off of usertalk. Discussing content on usertalk only leads to problems. Keep those discussions on articletalk instead. Softlavender (talk) 11:58, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for your understanding, Softlavender. I didn't want to revert my edit again and get into edit warring, so I got round the issue by rewording it. The reversions and language used by Wukai are somewhat hostile though, and it's unusual for me to experience behaviour like that on Wikipedia. I would agree with your summary, Softlavender, from what I've seen of the user.
- I thought that discussion of a revert was best brought up on the Usertalk page, but I will avoid that in future, and instead do it on Articletalk. --TrottieTrue (talk) 18:57, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- They've sometimes bounced back and forth within minutes on the same articles, which doesn't look good. It would be pretty incompetent intentional socking-to-edit-war; the accounts are named to make them easy to connect, but if they can't fix the access problem on their laptop for Wukai, they should just enable AlsoWukai on their phone and abandon the old account. —valereee (talk) 15:07, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- So do we need warnings or a block for User:AlsoWukai--User:Wukai? They've not responded here. Were they notified? --Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:24, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'm happy to stop using my Wukai account if that will appease y'all. AlsoWukai (talk) 18:27, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- I think the problem is less the alt account than the edit warring. The issue is not appeasement, but disruptive edit warring Please see WP:BRD. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Deepfriedokra, I did indeed notify the user at User_talk:AlsoWukai#Rashida_Tlaib. You're right that the alternative account is less of an issue here, but the user could appear to be using it to edit war. It is, as you say, disruptive. --TrottieTrue (talk) 18:57, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- I will stop using the Wukai account. Edit wars can be addressed as they occur. AlsoWukai (talk) 19:01, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- AlsoWukai, my above commentary notwithstanding, since you are aware of the edit warring policy, it should not be necessary for us to deal with edit warring from you since you can ensure that it does not occur. 3RR isn't a licence, it's just the point beyond which it is absolutely taking the piss to go. 1RR is what a responsible editor should hold themselves to in normal circumstances, then they should hit the talk page. GirthSummit (blether) 20:47, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- I will stop using the Wukai account. Edit wars can be addressed as they occur. AlsoWukai (talk) 19:01, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Deepfriedokra, I did indeed notify the user at User_talk:AlsoWukai#Rashida_Tlaib. You're right that the alternative account is less of an issue here, but the user could appear to be using it to edit war. It is, as you say, disruptive. --TrottieTrue (talk) 18:57, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- I think the problem is less the alt account than the edit warring. The issue is not appeasement, but disruptive edit warring Please see WP:BRD. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
100+ vandal edits on Myles Turner within the last 24 hours
Myles Turner (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) is being vandalized at a very high rate. I did leave a wp:rfpp, but thought this should be bumped up. Adakiko (talk) 05:15, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Page protected. Adakiko (talk) 05:28, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- I also pinged an admin privately to indef three accounts created specifically to vandalise the article; two of them had enough edits to autocon-bust a few days from now. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Takes a strong man to deny... 05:30, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'm going through the single-purpose accounts and blocking as needed. Thanks for the report. -- Fuzheado | Talk 05:39, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- One of those accounts isn't so much an SPA as it is a compromised account by the looks of it. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Takes a strong man to deny... 05:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked these accounts:
- User:Jpegan
- User:Ethmatcai
- User:Moedallaz345
- User:Yessir9644987664356
- User:Paidbyballmer
- User:Imjuskyre
- User:Hiro418
- User:YaMutha1234
- User:Aaron 456.67
- User:Chitowncubs123
- User:Bepiscola
- User:E1hyp3
- User:RL1016
- User:Ijfiod34ur9n
- User:WikiTwitter290
-- Fuzheado | Talk 05:49, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
110.170.144.xx range conducting BLP Violation
Hello, i found that IP range 110.170.144.xx conducting vandalism and BLP Violation on Phum Viphurit. These users has reported in AIV but needs a long respond and quickly become stale. Let see how IP vandalize the article:
- 110.170.144.33 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
- 110.170.144.32 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
- 110.170.144.35 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
This three users needs to be rangeblock because of distruptive behaviour. 180.244.189.223 (talk) 05:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- I semi-protected the article for a week. Rangeblocks area better suited for vandalism across multiple articles. The self-protection will stop the issue for now. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:45, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
31.5.133.157
- 31.5.133.157 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
Hi All, IP User 31.5.133.157 is mass-editing articles such as Eurasia and List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Eurasia without providing any edit summaries and zero sources, since yesterday. Most information being added such as on Federation of Euro-Asian Stock Exchanges and Eastern European Group does not seem to be constructive or accurate. I have tried to revert where possible, however the volume of edits is just too high in most cases. Many thanks, Archives908 (talk) 14:10, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Not sure if this is deliberate, but it seems that some of their edits consisted of adding super-inflated world maps and other landmarks to various articles that disrupted the layout of the page, so I reverted some of them. I have no idea what the IP is trying to accomplish here but their edits probably need some eyes. ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 15:45, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for your assistance. I have no clue either. They are still at it...a new (unexplained) edit every few minutes. The user seems to be focused on geography from what I can see, but they're sporadic editing style with zero explanation is certainly not constructive; nor is the content they are adding. In the Eastern European Group and Federation of Euro-Asian Stock Exchanges articles, the user added Turkey and Azerbaijan, respectively, as members (which they are not). In the Eurasia article, the user added Turkey and Pakistan under Soviet states (which, again they are not). I cannot explain what they're objective is, but it is disruptive nonetheless. I have managed to revert these edits prior to the disruption, but based on the trends in their edit history, this chaotic style of editing pursues. Any further guidance? Much appreciated, Archives908 (talk) 17:04, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Also, have a glance at Istanbul Process, none of the edits make any sense. 12 edits done in a about 1 hour, with zero explanation. Archives908 (talk) 17:12, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- And now, they have moved on too List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Oceania, 14 unexplained edits in less than 15 minutes. Archives908 (talk) 17:53, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
Edit warring by WilliamJE
After User:WilliamJE edited the article for Mike Straka to remove details regarding books he had written (see this edit), I reinserted the material, adding reliable and verifiable sources about each of the books. WilliamJE has started an edit war today (revert one, revert two and revert three), with the argument that this is all "book spam". WilliamJE inherently acknowledges that the material is encyclopedic and believes that there is some part of this that doesn't belong here, but refuses to comply with WP:PRESERVE and fix the problem, choosing instead to revert the edits and remove all of the content. It appears that the material is being removed out of spite to make a WP:POINT. Furthermore, WilliamJE has started to follow me to articles that I've recently edited within the previous day and that the editor had never edited before, including Essex County Country Club and Randolph High School. Half of WilliamJE's last dozen edits involve following me around from article to article. Any ideas? Alansohn (talk) 16:28, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- User:WilliamJE is quite correct to remove references that cite Amazon book sales pages - it is book spamming. - Ahunt (talk) 17:11, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- The complaining editor should have a boomerang headed back at him. Ideas he asks
- 1- His last edit to Mike Straka was in 2013[110]
- 2- I came to Essex Country Club after this post[111] was made to a WikiProject talk page. A talk page I've made almost five dozen edits[112] to going back as far as 2010.
- 3- Working on alumni related edits is something I do all the time. Just one example, this USER talk page post[113] I did 3 days ago.
- The above allegations are absurd. What I removed from Straka were multiple links to Amazon book pages. Is WP here to promote an author's books? Nope. It is bookspam. The complainant was told twice to make a bibliography section similar to one found at Mary Higgins Clark without the Amazon links but they shrugged it off. One of shrugs included this edit summary[114]- 'rv malicious removal of sourced content. Even you don't believe that this material is not encyclopedic or reliably sourced; you're just doing this out of spite. This time read WP:PRESERVE, WP:POINT and WP:DICK, especially the latter.
- Wrong accusations from an editor with clear history of practicing WP:OWN when it comes to New Jersey related articles. Any ideas?...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 17:16, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- The problem here is that WilliamJE believes that all disliked content should be removed, not merely questionable content. If the edits in question only removed the content in question there's no issue. all three reverts in question -- one, two and three -- remove details about the books with multiple reliable and verifiable sources, and this appears to be done purely out of spite and in direct violation of WP:PRESERVE, as has been discussed with this user. Alansohn (talk) 18:17, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- I don't see any reliable sources in those three reverts. Which sources is reliable? HuffPo? In my view, a bigger question is why an editor with 450k edits over 15 years is adding inline external links to amazon.com in a mainspace article. No editor should be linking this way:
Straka is the author of ''[https://www.amazon.com/Rowdy-Rousey-Ronda-Rouseys-Fight/dp/1629372390/ref=sr_1_1_twi_pap_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1487098998&sr=8-1&keywords=%22rowdy+rousey%22+%22mike+straka%22 Rowdy Rousey],''
. Alansohn, what gives with this linking? Lev¡vich 18:31, 18 November 2020 (UTC)- The link you cite was added in February 2017 in this edit. Alansohn (talk) 18:37, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Let's not play games, let's just talk about the real issues. Yes, the original link was added in 2017, but after it was removed by WJE, you (Alansohn) reinstated it here, here, and here. The question isn't "Who put it there first?", the question is, in my mind, why is an editor who is #36 on the all-time-edits list edit warring to keep policy-violating link spam in an article? You know it's wrong to link to Amazon.com this way, why insist on it through multiple reversions? Lev¡vich 18:54, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- The link you cite was added in February 2017 in this edit. Alansohn (talk) 18:37, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- I don't see any reliable sources in those three reverts. Which sources is reliable? HuffPo? In my view, a bigger question is why an editor with 450k edits over 15 years is adding inline external links to amazon.com in a mainspace article. No editor should be linking this way:
- The problem here is that WilliamJE believes that all disliked content should be removed, not merely questionable content. If the edits in question only removed the content in question there's no issue. all three reverts in question -- one, two and three -- remove details about the books with multiple reliable and verifiable sources, and this appears to be done purely out of spite and in direct violation of WP:PRESERVE, as has been discussed with this user. Alansohn (talk) 18:17, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
The aggressive removal of content by WilliamJE can also be seen at this edit, where sourced material about a book was removed because the editor did not look at what was changed in the article. WilliamJE does not believe that WP:PRESERVE -- and the obligation to "Preserve appropriate content. As long as any facts or ideas would belong in an encyclopedia, they should be retained in Wikipedia" -- has any relevance, even where other editors have added sources. Alansohn (talk) 18:52, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- ...and that edit was self-reverted 8 minutes later. (And the original reversion would be valid under DUE grounds.) Why even bring up a self-reverted edit, and not mention that it was self-reverted? That doesn't strike me as an accurate presentation of the evidence, Alansohn. Lev¡vich 18:59, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- I cleaned up the links in that article, probably still needs some work. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 19:30, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- "Based on spite" is not a phrase that should be used in a title here. How do you expect anyone to look at an issue dispassionately when you use it? I have no idea who is right or wrong here, and will not even look when a discussion is framed in this way. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:27, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
Could someone pop over to Edmund's article and remove the COI edit that keeps being added such as this please? I asked Favonian but they declined and I am at the 3RR threshold (and in any case, there's no sign of this new single-purpose account stopping). The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 17:19, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- I have reverted the edit and notified the editor about this discussion. GiantSnowman 17:21, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Must have beaten me by a nanosecond! I agree with the reasoning here and will also keep an eye on the page. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 17:22, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- I've semi-protected for three days to cut short the event spam. Acroterion (talk) 19:36, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you all. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 20:01, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- I've semi-protected for three days to cut short the event spam. Acroterion (talk) 19:36, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Must have beaten me by a nanosecond! I agree with the reasoning here and will also keep an eye on the page. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 17:22, 18 November 2020 (UTC)