→Luv Puri passage: need RSes for such a claim Tags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Advanced mobile edit |
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:*{{cite web |publisher=[[Indian Defence Review]] |url= http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spotlights/the-case-of-demchok/ |first=Claude |last=Arpi |authorlink=Claude Arpi |title=The Case of Demchok |date=19 May 2017 |accessdate=19 July 2020 |quote= The talks were held in Beijing between Zhang Hanfu, China’s Vice-Minister of Foreign Affairs, N. Raghavan, the Indian Ambassador to China and T.N. Kaul, his Chargé d’Affaires and Chen Chai-Kang, a Director. They lasted from December 1953 till end of April 1954. [...] Kaul objected, Demchok was in India, he told Chen who answered that India’s border was further on the West of the Indus. On Kaul’s insistence Chen said “There can be no doubt about actual physical possession which can be verified on spot but to avoid any dispute we may omit mention of Demchok”. [...] In October 1962, the Demchok sub-sector was held by the 7 J&K Militia. The PLA launched an attack on October 22. [...] The PLA eventually withdrew, but occupied the southern part of Demchok.}} |
:*{{cite web |publisher=[[Indian Defence Review]] |url= http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spotlights/the-case-of-demchok/ |first=Claude |last=Arpi |authorlink=Claude Arpi |title=The Case of Demchok |date=19 May 2017 |accessdate=19 July 2020 |quote= The talks were held in Beijing between Zhang Hanfu, China’s Vice-Minister of Foreign Affairs, N. Raghavan, the Indian Ambassador to China and T.N. Kaul, his Chargé d’Affaires and Chen Chai-Kang, a Director. They lasted from December 1953 till end of April 1954. [...] Kaul objected, Demchok was in India, he told Chen who answered that India’s border was further on the West of the Indus. On Kaul’s insistence Chen said “There can be no doubt about actual physical possession which can be verified on spot but to avoid any dispute we may omit mention of Demchok”. [...] In October 1962, the Demchok sub-sector was held by the 7 J&K Militia. The PLA launched an attack on October 22. [...] The PLA eventually withdrew, but occupied the southern part of Demchok.}} |
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:So you’re claiming that some RS says that Demchok was under Chinese control sometime between 1954 and September 1962 but lost it by October? Or that there is a multitude of RSes directly contradicting both Puri and Arpi? You haven’t given any RS suggesting that the split ''did not occur'' during the 1962 war (and you still claim that the Puri article is an op-ed despite it not saying that anywhere). — <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;font-size:100%;color:black;background-color:transparent;;">[[User:MarkH21|MarkH<sub><small>21</small></sub>]]<sup>[[User talk:MarkH21|<span style="background-color:navy; color:white;">talk</span>]]</sup></span> 15:42, 19 July 2020 (UTC) |
:So you’re claiming that some RS says that Demchok was under Chinese control sometime between 1954 and September 1962 but lost it by October? Or that there is a multitude of RSes directly contradicting both Puri and Arpi? You haven’t given any RS suggesting that the split ''did not occur'' during the 1962 war (and you still claim that the Puri article is an op-ed despite it not saying that anywhere). — <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;font-size:100%;color:black;background-color:transparent;;">[[User:MarkH21|MarkH<sub><small>21</small></sub>]]<sup>[[User talk:MarkH21|<span style="background-color:navy; color:white;">talk</span>]]</sup></span> 15:42, 19 July 2020 (UTC) |
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:: No, I was talking about ''British colonial period''. You know that that period ended in '''1947'''. |
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:: From 1684 till 1954, the southern Demchok village (which was the only Demchok village that mattered) was under Tibetan control. During this time, a couple of houses and a camp site cropped up on the northern side of the river. Nobody has demonstrated any connection between these couple of houses and the southern Demchok village. |
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:: Most Indian commentators don't know this. They all seem to believe that the real Demchok village was on the northern one and that it gave rise to an offshoot on the southern side. I too was under this impression until I started investigating recently, when I discovered that map after map showed only the southern Demchok village. |
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:: What happened in 1954 is not known. While India included the southern Demchok village in its territorial map, there is no evidence that it extended its administration to it. If it did, there would have been complaints from the Tibetans which would have been escalated to diplomatic level. Similar disputes in the [[Arunachal Pradesh|Assam Himalaya]] did get escalated. |
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:: So, this idea that there was a "single village" that got split across is pure mythology as far as I am concerned. I am not willing to buy it unless there is a [[WP:HISTRS]] that has studied the actual happenings. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 16:47, 19 July 2020 (UTC) |
Revision as of 16:47, 19 July 2020
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Luv Puri passage
I am contesting this passage:
After the 1962 Sino-Indian War, the village of Demchok was divided in two parts, with Demchok, Ladakh administered by India and Dêmqog, Tibet Autonomous Region administered by China. [1] The split did not divide any of the resident families.[1]
References
- ^ a b Puri, Luv (2 August 2005). "Ladakhis await re-opening of historic Tibet route". The Hindu. Archived from the original on 24 December 2013. Retrieved 19 July 2020.
Administrative record books show that it has a population of 150 people living in 24 houses, all having solar-powered lights. The village itself was divided into two parts one held by India and the other by China after the 1962 Sino-Indian war, though there is not a single divided family. On the Chinese side one can spot two houses and the road seems to be in a poor condition.
This is just a newspaper op-ed column, not peer-reviewed or even editorially reviewed. Even though the author has written books on the Kashmir dispute, he did not write anything about Ladakh. He seems to have travelled to Demchok in 2005 and described what he saw. There is no telling what he knows about the history of the place. Does he even know that the southern Demchok village was under the Tibetan control throughout the British colonial period?
So, I recommend removing this page as being dubious and half-baked. We have much better information available elsewhere. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:50, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
- You removed it on the basis of your claim that the split happened much earlier, when what is written is supported by both Puri's article and Claude Arpi:
- Arpi, Claude (19 May 2017). "The Case of Demchok". Indian Defence Review. Retrieved 19 July 2020.
The talks were held in Beijing between Zhang Hanfu, China's Vice-Minister of Foreign Affairs, N. Raghavan, the Indian Ambassador to China and T.N. Kaul, his Chargé d'Affaires and Chen Chai-Kang, a Director. They lasted from December 1953 till end of April 1954. [...] Kaul objected, Demchok was in India, he told Chen who answered that India's border was further on the West of the Indus. On Kaul's insistence Chen said "There can be no doubt about actual physical possession which can be verified on spot but to avoid any dispute we may omit mention of Demchok". [...] In October 1962, the Demchok sub-sector was held by the 7 J&K Militia. The PLA launched an attack on October 22. [...] The PLA eventually withdrew, but occupied the southern part of Demchok.
- Arpi, Claude (19 May 2017). "The Case of Demchok". Indian Defence Review. Retrieved 19 July 2020.
- So you’re claiming that some RS says that Demchok was under Chinese control sometime between 1954 and September 1962 but lost it by October? Or that there is a multitude of RSes directly contradicting both Puri and Arpi? You haven’t given any RS suggesting that the split did not occur during the 1962 war (and you still claim that the Puri article is an op-ed despite it not saying that anywhere). — MarkH21talk 15:42, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
- No, I was talking about British colonial period. You know that that period ended in 1947.
- From 1684 till 1954, the southern Demchok village (which was the only Demchok village that mattered) was under Tibetan control. During this time, a couple of houses and a camp site cropped up on the northern side of the river. Nobody has demonstrated any connection between these couple of houses and the southern Demchok village.
- Most Indian commentators don't know this. They all seem to believe that the real Demchok village was on the northern one and that it gave rise to an offshoot on the southern side. I too was under this impression until I started investigating recently, when I discovered that map after map showed only the southern Demchok village.
- What happened in 1954 is not known. While India included the southern Demchok village in its territorial map, there is no evidence that it extended its administration to it. If it did, there would have been complaints from the Tibetans which would have been escalated to diplomatic level. Similar disputes in the Assam Himalaya did get escalated.
- So, this idea that there was a "single village" that got split across is pure mythology as far as I am concerned. I am not willing to buy it unless there is a WP:HISTRS that has studied the actual happenings. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:47, 19 July 2020 (UTC)