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== Article contains Information Not Included in Sources, and also contains Primary Sources == |
== Article contains Information Not Included in Sources, and also contains Primary Sources == |
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The whole section of the "Background of the victims" with the exception of the last sentence is not verified by the sources added. There isno information concerning the background of the victims in this source. The section on "Worldwide reactions" is based on primary sources (Golden Dawn's website) for the reactions in other countries and by football clubs. The sources are not to be used based |
The whole section of the "Background of the victims" with the exception of the last sentence is not verified by the sources added. There isno information concerning the background of the victims in this source. The section on "Worldwide reactions" is based on primary sources (Golden Dawn's website) for the reactions in other countries and by football clubs. The sources are not to be used based o [[Wikipedia:PSTS#Primary.2C_secondary_and_tertiary_sources]] and [[Wikipedia:V#Questionable_sources]].--[[User:Tco03displays|Tco03displays]] ([[User talk:Tco03displays|talk]]) 04:01, 5 December 2013 (UTC) |
Revision as of 04:02, 5 December 2013
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Responses
This section should be expanded to include the responses by the political parties, the parliament, the government and other actors. --Tco03displays (talk) 03:41, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
- Also if possible, the responses towards the organization that claims to have executed the murder should be included, including the debate in regards to the authenticity of the organization's manifesto. --Tco03displays (talk) 03:44, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Read the countries (copied from my talk page)--Tco03displays (talk) 15:53, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Can you refer it in this page? first... 6 --Katcheic (talk) 05:50, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
- The Source indicates: Germany, Ukraine, England, Australian Greeks (my bad for removing this part), and very few football teams. It is also a primary source, coming from the Golden Dawn party itself, and should be avoided according to Wikipedia regulations. Do not re-add information that cannot be supported. If you find relevant sources fro elsewhere you are more than welcome to add them. --Tco03displays (talk) 05:55, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
- Τhe most reliable source and includes pictures of the places. This source also saws MORE football teams so do not vadnalize the article.
--Katcheic (talk) 05:58, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
- If you have a source, use it, and state what football teams/nationalist groups/countries staged protests, always as stated in the source. I will repeat again though, these are primary sources and should rarely be used. Iam not trying to piss you off or annoy you, but the subject interests me as well, and I will continue to edit it until it reaches a neutral point of view, supported by factual evidence, reducing the primary sources to the minimum, and of course avoiding inappropriate language. You keep adding "etc". Do not add it. It indicates that you don't have a source and that the page is unreliable. You keep adding phrases such as "crowds of people" and "large numbers". If the number of the people cannot be indicated by a source, do not add vague terms in regard to size, this is unreliable, subjective and amateurish. Do not remove my citation needed tags. Those are placed because no source is sited for the statement, so that other editors can see it and add a source. Hope this clears up the misunderstanding. --Tco03displays (talk) 06:02, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
- Read the Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources and the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view pages for further information regarding the proper use of sources in articles. --Tco03displays (talk) 06:12, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
- Εχposing only the truth I do not see anyone else that have a problem with that but you. I think I start to create this article by myself. So you face nothing else but the truth. --Katcheic (talk) 06:16, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
- Please try to understand that certain rules have to be followed. What you consider the "truth" and what I consider the "truth" does not matter. Read the links I sent you. Sooner or later I will be back editing the page. --Tco03displays (talk) 15:59, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with you Tco03displays... The party's official website cannot (and shouldn't) be considered as a reliable source... As for the murders, there are plenty of them actually in Greece, with their only difference with this one being that in this case it was largely covered by greek Medias, as its victims were members of a political party which was present in the Greek National Assembly and it just taken place after the murder of rapper and far-left activist Killah P aka Pavlos Fyssas by another member of this party, so many people and greek Medias just seen it as a kind of revenge from other far-left activists... Actually, I think that this case in not so much time will be mostly forgotten as was the fate of a similar case about young French far-left activist Clement Meric, which, when happened, was in the center of interest for some time, but then... it was simply forgotten... Well, from France's larger population.... I think that this case is very similar to that mentioned before, although it was situated in a different country...--Glorious 93 (talk) 01:07, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
- There have been more significant political murders by terrorist organizations. Look at the case of Pavlos Bakoyannis, a murder which shook Greece at the time and has affected politics heavily in the following years. He is included in Revolutionary Organization 17 November, but no special article is attributed to the event. Why should a murder that has less effects and its victims are not noticeable have its own page? Also, the attack is also mentioned in Golden Dawn (political party).--Tco03displays (talk) 15:34, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
- If you have a source, use it, and state what football teams/nationalist groups/countries staged protests, always as stated in the source. I will repeat again though, these are primary sources and should rarely be used. Iam not trying to piss you off or annoy you, but the subject interests me as well, and I will continue to edit it until it reaches a neutral point of view, supported by factual evidence, reducing the primary sources to the minimum, and of course avoiding inappropriate language. You keep adding "etc". Do not add it. It indicates that you don't have a source and that the page is unreliable. You keep adding phrases such as "crowds of people" and "large numbers". If the number of the people cannot be indicated by a source, do not add vague terms in regard to size, this is unreliable, subjective and amateurish. Do not remove my citation needed tags. Those are placed because no source is sited for the statement, so that other editors can see it and add a source. Hope this clears up the misunderstanding. --Tco03displays (talk) 06:02, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Proposed merge with Terrorism in Greece
Insufficient coverage and inadequate notability. Dlohcierekim 16:32, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
- Article is individually very well widespread in society needs to be incorporated--Katcheic (talk) 17:21, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
- Which society? By what reliable sources? Why are these deaths more significant than previous murders mentioned in Terrorism in Greece, to the point that these murders require their own article? Please elaborate and defend your opinion with evidence.--Tco03displays (talk) 23:57, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
- Article is individually very well widespread in society needs to be incorporated--Katcheic (talk) 17:21, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
As I mentionned in another section of this discussion page, I think that this article should be merged, as proposed by Dlohcierekim with article Terrorism in Greece... Seems to me like a "hit of the moment" (even if I'm sure this expression isn't very appropriate for this situation...)... Now it's a talk of the town in Greece, when after 2-3 months it would be mostly forgotten (except from the corncerned political party itself...)...--Glorious 93 (talk) 01:14, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
- And the families and friends of the victims. But I agree with you; the article should be merged. --Tco03displays (talk) 01:28, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Is there anyone that remember someone guy named Fyssas as an evidence of death? Come on... We will see after 1 month if it still in our minds but Kapelonis and Foudoulis are still and will be... --Entrancepi (talk) 12:26, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
- Entrancepi, are you implying that this page should be kept because there is a page for Fyssa's death? This is not a forum to add political memorials and disagreements. I was suspect for these articles popping up because I did work on Fyssas' page; and random IPs popped up in the talk page complaining about the article and its reliability calling Pavlos Fyssas names. I was worried that articles trying to counter attack Fyssas' article with Golden Dawn murdered members might pop up, turning Wikipedia in some political boxing arena, and the more new editors pop up talking in the attitude you and the original editor talk, and seeing the unreliability and subjective nature of the page (the term Worldwide reactions, which overemphasizes the reactions, and which I edited, but was edited back for example); the more I become convinced that this is indeed the case. Lastly, The Fyssas article has enough material that needs to be added. Such as the reactions internationally, the reactions locally, the arrest and crackdown on Golden Dawn, the reaction of the Greek hip hop scene and the further investigations and future conclusions of Golden Dawn's trials. It therefore has notability, and could be changed to another name in the future, such as Arrests/Trials of Golden Dawn members (an example is the case of the murder of Alexis Grigoropoulos, which turned into a quite decent article about the 2008 Greek riots); so the material should still be maintained. The references are also from secondary sources. For the record, you have just given another reason for deletion Wikipedia:Too soon--Tco03displays (talk) 16:41, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Silly me, I've completely forgotten to add it... -- Montjoie-Saint-Denis !!! talk 02:43, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
User Entrancepi removed the template ar 17:37, 3 December 2013 , summarising "This article not necessarily has to do with terrorism". --C messier (talk) 10:27, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
In favor: :This is a terrorist attack. The content of the article should be moved to Terrorism in Greece. For the record, another member was injured but did not die, and another managed to escape. The attack was blind; targeting whoever was there at the moment. Based on the proclamation it was a counter attack towards Golden Dawn for Fyssas' murder and other murders and violent attacks attributed to the party, and was not targeted to specific individuals within the party. There have been more significant political murders by terrorist organizations. Look at the case of Pavlos Bakoyannis, a murder which shook Greece at the time and has affected politics heavily in the following years. He is included in Revolutionary Organization 17 November, but no special article is attributed to the event. Why should a murder that has less effects and its victims are not noticeable have its own page? Also, the attack is also mentioned in Golden Dawn (political party).--Tco03displays (talk) 15:48, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
- Suspecting Political and Propaganda Implications: Please read my response to Entrancepi above. There is evidence that this is an article created with propaganda motives and political implications in response to the article Murder of Pavlos Fyssas. User:Katcheic the original creator of this article, literally copied and pasted the tags of this article for reliability and subjectivity on the Fyssas article with no justification, and removed referenced information in relation to the public responses of the murder, which were translated from the Greek Wikipedia article as asked by the appropriate tag. I had made the translation and this is becoming unacceptable and a clear sign of vandalism and intended misinformation. The user has also exaggerated the international and local responses towards the murders of the Golden Dawn members, even though I edited the section repeatedly with explanations as to why, and repeatably explained that primary sources should not be used and that information that is added to the article is not supported by the sources. Vague terms indicating subjective and unverified claims on the extend of the response are also used, when again I explained several times why they should be avoided. The user reverts my edits again and again. Removing referenced content from the Fyssas article in relation to anti-Golden Dawn demonstrations while intentionally exaggerating the pro-Golden Dawn reactions after the murder of the 2 Golden Dawn members indicates that the user is intentionally trying to affect and distort the reader's view in relation to the international and local public support for Golden Dawn. --Tco03displays (talk) 17:08, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
- Good evening. I think the article in the murder emphasizes a not singularly-fact. It is not even a simply of terrorism. This is also unsupported yet. Not documented at all as a fully "terrorist attack". The fact is notified mostly around the world is the death of @these two people@ became a burst wave of a pan-European and worldwide existing. Sο how can we talk about this merge? --Katcheic (talk) 20:54, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Title
The article was moved to the title "Murder of Manolis Fountoulis and Giorgos Kapelonis to Neo Iraklio Golden Down office" and the justification was "that's NOT ths point of this article. Dont you ever change it". I disagree. The fact/point are the shootings. Whoever went there didn't target specifically Manolis Fountoulis and Giorgos Kapelonis but everyone there (outside the office), just happened to be there (and Alexandros Gerontas, who was severly woonded). --C messier (talk) 10:13, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
- PS. According to the proclamation of the terrorists the target was Golden Down. --C messier (talk) 10:17, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
- You are perfectly right. And the act is a terrorist attack. The content of the article should be moved to Terrorism in Greece. For the record, another member was injured but did not die, and another managed to escape. The attack was blind; targeting whoever was there at the moment. Based on the proclamation it was a counter attack towards Golden Dawn for Fyssas' murder and other murders and violent attacks attributed to the party, and was not targeted to specific individuals within the party. --Tco03displays (talk) 15:28, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Article contains Information Not Included in Sources, and also contains Primary Sources
The whole section of the "Background of the victims" with the exception of the last sentence is not verified by the sources added. There isno information concerning the background of the victims in this source. The section on "Worldwide reactions" is based on primary sources (Golden Dawn's website) for the reactions in other countries and by football clubs. The sources are not to be used based o Wikipedia:PSTS#Primary.2C_secondary_and_tertiary_sources and Wikipedia:V#Questionable_sources.--Tco03displays (talk) 04:01, 5 December 2013 (UTC)