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RunningTiger123 (talk | contribs) →Move TV seasons from parenthetical disambiguation to comma disambiguation: !weak oppose, better options possible |
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:'''Support''' I prefer no comma here, since "The Simpsons, season 8 episodes" is awkward compared to "The Simpsons season 8 episodes" and the current [[:Category:The Simpsons (season 8) episodes]]. –[[User:LaundryPizza03|<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b>]] ([[User talk:LaundryPizza03|<span style="color:#0d0">d</span>]][[Special:Contribs/LaundryPizza03|<span style="color:#0bf">c̄</span>]]) 09:29, 21 November 2023 (UTC) |
:'''Support''' I prefer no comma here, since "The Simpsons, season 8 episodes" is awkward compared to "The Simpsons season 8 episodes" and the current [[:Category:The Simpsons (season 8) episodes]]. –[[User:LaundryPizza03|<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b>]] ([[User talk:LaundryPizza03|<span style="color:#0d0">d</span>]][[Special:Contribs/LaundryPizza03|<span style="color:#0bf">c̄</span>]]) 09:29, 21 November 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Weak oppose''' – I understand the general principle, but I don't think the benefit of switching to commas is worth the work needed to make the changes. (I also personally find the commas awkward but I understand if people want to ignore that argument.) If we really wanted to make a change, we could go with "Season X (''Show'')" – this would be more in line with disambiguation norms and it would enable the [[Help:Pipe trick|pipe trick]] when people want to link to season articles, but that's a much different idea than what is being proposed here. [[User:RunningTiger123|RunningTiger123]] ([[User talk:RunningTiger123|talk]]) 20:36, 22 November 2023 (UTC) |
Revision as of 20:36, 22 November 2023
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Partial disambiguation
WP:PFILM dictates that secondary-topic films with the same title should always be disambiguated from each other by year, even if one of the films is the clear primary topic, overriding WP:PDAB. WP:NCTVUS does not specify what to do in this situation, so I'm wondering what the current consensus is among WikiProject Television. I ask because I was going to move One Piece (TV series) to accommodate One Piece (2023 TV series), but then noticed a recent RM on the talk page which opposed doing so. InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:44, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- See WP:INCDAB:
"In individual cases consensus may determine that a parenthetically disambiguated title that is still ambiguous has a primary topic, but the threshold for identifying a primary topic for such titles is higher than for a title without parenthetical disambiguation."
I believe this is the so-called "primary subtopic" exception. There are some of these out there, I think even under WP:NCFILM. If a RM discussion determines this, as it did in the case of One Piece (TV series), then you need to leave it be. There are definitely a few TV series that are "primary subtopic" cases, though I can't recall a specific one right now. Sidenote: I do find it odd that the article for the 2023 One Piece TV series doesn't seem to mention the 1999 animated series. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:17, 20 June 2023 (UTC)- Well, RMs that moved Titanic (1997 film) and Parasite (2019 film) were both overturned, partially on the grounds of PFILM. InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:44, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- The (only) two currently known exceptions to WP:PFILM are Rustin (film) and Willow (film), per WP:PDABLIST. The three known cases for TV series are One Piece (TV series), The Boys (TV series) and The Office (American TV series). — BarrelProof (talk) 09:39, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
- And Vikings (TV series). -- Alex_21 TALK 09:55, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
- And Revolver (TV series), although that is a somewhat special case. There is no article devoted to the other show, but it is mentioned in the article about at least one of the actors. — BarrelProof (talk) 00:17, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
- Incidentally, Rustin (film) has the same quirk as Revolver (TV series). There is no article devoted to the other Rustin film – only an article about a person who directed and co-starred in it. — BarrelProof (talk) 00:57, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
- And Revolver (TV series), although that is a somewhat special case. There is no article devoted to the other show, but it is mentioned in the article about at least one of the actors. — BarrelProof (talk) 00:17, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
- And Vikings (TV series). -- Alex_21 TALK 09:55, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
- WP:PFILM gives as one example:
Miracle on 34th Street (the 1947 film), Miracle on 34th Street (1973 film) and Miracle on 34th Street (1994 film) – The original film is regarded as the primary topic so the other two adaptations are disambiguated.
-- so there is no requirement that "films with the same title should always be disambiguated from each other by year, even if one of the films is the clear primary topic". older ≠ wiser 02:24, 20 June 2023 (UTC)- Let me clarify. The Titanic example at WP:PFILM is what I am talking about, not Miracle on 34th Street. Like Titanic, the primary, undisambiguated topic of One Piece is not a TV series but a manga, but there are two TV series called One Piece, one of which (the 1999 one) is the primary topic between the two. If this were a film, we would promptly move One Piece (TV series) to One Piece (1999 TV series) in accordance with PFILM, just like we did with Titanic and Avatar and Parasite, but this is a TV series, which is why I ask whether WikiProject Television allows for partial/incomplete disambiguation (which WikiProject Film doesn't). InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:44, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- I answered above – "primary subtopics" are allowed in some limited cases, and I'm pretty sure yours isn't the only example of that under WP:NCTV. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:48, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- Please see the list given above. There are currently (only)
threefour identified instances of partially disambiguated TV series article titles, although AFAIK there is no explicit prohibition for TV shows like there is for films. — BarrelProof (talk) 10:28, 21 June 2023 (UTC)- And there shouldn't be one for films, as it's WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. But it's not like I care enough to make a stink about it... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:21, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
- I agree. It's kind of silly that we send readers looking for Avatar (film), Independence Day (film), or even The Wizard of Oz (film), to dab pages instead of the articles they want. I'm a little surprised Casablanca (film) hasn't been redirected yet because someone someday might possibly be looking for Pirate Submarine. - Station1 (talk) 00:59, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
- I have no opinion on the guideline itself, but WP:PFILM directly addresses the notion that it is "local consensus":
While the general guideline at Wikipedia:Disambiguation allows for incomplete disambiguation, the film-naming conventions guideline prefers disambiguating all secondary-topic films from each other. Policy at WP:PRECISION permits such Wikipedia project-specific naming criteria
. In any case, this talk page isn't the right place to object to/complain about NCFILM... InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:44, 22 June 2023 (UTC)- At least it says "prefers" rather than requires – that leaves some wiggle-room. But if only WP:FILM editors are showing up at these RM discussions, they will have their way. Personally, had I known about the Titanic and Avatar RM discussions, I certainly would have voted in favor of the "primary subtopic" exception for these. And moving Casablanca to "1942 film" would be even more uncalled for. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:33, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
- I have no opinion on the guideline itself, but WP:PFILM directly addresses the notion that it is "local consensus":
- I agree. It's kind of silly that we send readers looking for Avatar (film), Independence Day (film), or even The Wizard of Oz (film), to dab pages instead of the articles they want. I'm a little surprised Casablanca (film) hasn't been redirected yet because someone someday might possibly be looking for Pirate Submarine. - Station1 (talk) 00:59, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
- And there shouldn't be one for films, as it's WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. But it's not like I care enough to make a stink about it... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:21, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
- Please see the list given above. There are currently (only)
- I answered above – "primary subtopics" are allowed in some limited cases, and I'm pretty sure yours isn't the only example of that under WP:NCTV. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:48, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- Let me clarify. The Titanic example at WP:PFILM is what I am talking about, not Miracle on 34th Street. Like Titanic, the primary, undisambiguated topic of One Piece is not a TV series but a manga, but there are two TV series called One Piece, one of which (the 1999 one) is the primary topic between the two. If this were a film, we would promptly move One Piece (TV series) to One Piece (1999 TV series) in accordance with PFILM, just like we did with Titanic and Avatar and Parasite, but this is a TV series, which is why I ask whether WikiProject Television allows for partial/incomplete disambiguation (which WikiProject Film doesn't). InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:44, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
Hi. I would like to request for some comments regarding the recent RM in Talk:Lost (South Korean TV series). Currently, there are only three TV series titled Lost per Lost#Television: one South Korean and two American. In this case, which additional disambiguation should we use for the South Korean TV series—language/country or year (for consistency per nom)? Thank you in advance! Accireioj (talk) 09:52, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
Correct disambiguation
Hi. What is the correct disambiguation for original series of OTT streaming services like Netflix, Disney+, etc. I saw some inconsistency. For example: Cigarette Girl uses "(TV series)", while Chicken Nugget uses "(web series)" (both are Netflix original series). Thank you in advance! Accireioj (talk) 16:06, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- "(TV series)" should be used if they are appearing on a streaming service. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 14:53, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
Move TV seasons from parenthetical disambiguation to comma disambiguation
Wikipedia has thousands of articles on TV seasons of specific shows at titles like The Crown (season 4), Shark Tank (season 12), and One Piece (season 20). However, unlike disambiguators that disambiguate different kinds of things sharing the same name, like Mercury (planet)/Mercury (element)/Mercury (mythology), these are really merely instances of the same things. I propose that the titling scheme should be changed to comma disambiguation, so that titles like the above would be at The Crown, season 4, Shark Tank, season 12, and One Piece, season 20. I believe that this is a more natural disambiguation scheme, and would enable us to avoid the current phenomenon of actual disambiguation pages at titles like Degrassi (season 1), Dynasty (season 3), The Great British Baking Show (season 5), and Secret Story (season 7).
Shows with other ambiguous elements would continue to use parentheses for those elements, so MacGyver (2016 TV series, season 5) would become MacGyver (2016 TV series), season 5 and The Voice (Australian season 7) would become The Voice (Australia), season 7. There are, by my count, 6,334 articles on TV show seasons with "(season X)" parentheticals. There is some additional number using parentheticals for "series" (used in the sense of a season, rather than as a "TV series") rather than "season", which would also be covered by this proposal. BD2412 T 04:45, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oh I already tried that in 2020, the whole thing is at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)/Archive 17#Season naming convention (continued), but as far as I can tell, the general idea "don't fix what isn't broken", even if I agree that it's absolutely broken and against Wikipedia's disambiguation guidelines. You are quite correct: if Mercury (mythology) concerns the concept called Mercury that is specifically from mythology, by the same rules, One Piece (season 20) would concern the concept called One Piece that is specifically from some "season 20", which makes zero sense. -- Alex_21 TALK 07:07, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Just adding a link to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)/Archive 17#RFC: What should the naming convention for television season articles be? as well, to show the clear options given for commas. -- Alex_21 TALK 07:32, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support, despite the amount of work it will entail, because this would fix several confusing disambiguation-related problems at the same time (while introducing no new ones), and will better comply with policy (WP:NATURALDIS instructs us to use natural disambiguation or failing that then comma disambiguation styles before resorting to parenthetical; they are in top-bottom order for a reason, just like the WP:CRITERIA are). I'm not perturbed at all that a previous proposal vaguely similar to this (but in favor of colons) failed to gain consensus, since many changes take more than one proposal, and this one is has clearer rationales than the old one, and is much better aligned with our title practices (the colon style is almost exclusively used for articles split up for length into a series of regular segements, like "List of [whatevers]: A–M", etc., and even this is sometimes done with commas or parens instead today). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 07:19, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support, but calling the part between the parentheses "disambiguation" is incorrect. The article is on a specific season of a TV show, not different TV shows by the same name where "season x" is the way of differentiating them. Put another way, the season number is an integral part of the title. Because of this confusion, renaming them is absolutely the way to go. I actually think dropping all punctuation is the most natural, preferring "Shark Tank season 12" to both "Shark Tank, season 12" and "Shark Tank (season 12)". -- Tavix (talk) 13:15, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Unsure yet, but oppose the part of
The Voice (Australian season 7) would become The Voice (Australia), season 7
. The correct title would be The Voice (Australian TV series), season 7 per the actual article at The Voice (Australian TV series). We shouldn't make up different titles in the season articles. Additional note, if this proposal passes, please ping me as it requires module updates. Gonnym (talk) 13:20, 1 November 2023 (UTC)- Yeah, that's a good point, but a minor one and probably shouldn't lead to a blanket "oppose"; this is something that could be tweaked in the proposed language easily. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:54, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- I didn't blanket oppose, I specifically wrote that I oppose only that part. Gonnym (talk) 19:13, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- I would argue that the "season 7" element makes it clear that this is a TV series, but I have no problem with following the primary topic title to the extent that these are an issue. BD2412 T 19:24, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- I didn't blanket oppose, I specifically wrote that I oppose only that part. Gonnym (talk) 19:13, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's a good point, but a minor one and probably shouldn't lead to a blanket "oppose"; this is something that could be tweaked in the proposed language easily. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:54, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. Yuk! Looks awful and not an improvement in any way. Solution in search of a problem. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:40, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- The problem is that Wikipedia has long adopted the convention of using parentheticals to indicate actual ambiguity between topics. George Washington (trombonist) is a different person from George Washington, not an instance of the president being a trombonist. Seasons of the same TV series are not ambiguous to each other, as they are related. BD2412 T 16:09, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- That seems too subjective and insubstantial to be consensus-formation meaningful in any way, Necrothesp. The actual problems have been clearly identified, so claiming it's "in search of a problem" is clearly false. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:54, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- They may have been "identified", but that doesn't mean I have to agree that they're a problem! I don't. I have never, ever looked at this and thought, "oh dear, that's a problem"! All I can see here is a proposal to take something that looks perfectly good and works perfectly well and change it for the sake of it (and make it look awful). -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:24, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- Except problems with this have already been identified in this discussion, including issues with Wikidata, and how it does not conform with Wikipedia's disambiguation guidelines, thus it does not "work perfectly well". Whether you consider it a problem because you haven't personally had to deal with it is is irrelevant; if it is a problem for anyone outside yourself, then it remains a problem. -- Alex_21 TALK 19:59, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- They may have been "identified", but that doesn't mean I have to agree that they're a problem! I don't. I have never, ever looked at this and thought, "oh dear, that's a problem"! All I can see here is a proposal to take something that looks perfectly good and works perfectly well and change it for the sake of it (and make it look awful). -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:24, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- Question: Why a comma rather than, say, a colon (One Piece: Season 20) or nothing at all (The Simpsons Season 33 / The Simpsons season 33)? Both are also in usage in listings and reviews and commentaries. Just asking to really grasp all the particulars on it. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 14:43, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support in principle because the current naming convention violates core disambiguation principles. However, I would prefer a colon over a comma, as the latter looks a bit ugly to me. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 16:09, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- @TenTonParasol and King of Hearts: have you ever seen colons used in titles in Wikipedia other than to indicate formal subtitles, where the colon is part of the published name of the media? BD2412 T 16:14, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- There's technically an argument to be made that this is comparable to a subtitle or is arguably sometimes (often?) treated like one: The Crown: Season 3, Mad Men: Season 3 (in the where to buy), The Legend of Vox Machina: Season 2 review (though no punctuation in the body!), The Simpsons: Season 35 (page title up in the tab). Hence why I bring it up. The colons aren't even my preference, really.
- Personally, I think the comma into a lowercase looks extremely sloppy. Arguably, it's preferable to go "The Crown Season 3", no space, treat season like a proper noun—and arguably it's treated like one by many sources anyway in this context. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 16:56, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- I am not terribly opposed to no punctuation, since a season of a show is its own discrete entity. BD2412 T 18:19, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- I am terribly opposed to it, since its extremly confusing to anyone not already familar with what the article is about. And as for TonTonParasol's additional ideas, WP does not "treat [something] like a proper noun" if it isn't one, and we don't capitalize things unless they are capitalized in an overwhelming majority of RS ("many" doesn't cut it); see top of MOS:CAPS, and see also MOS:SIGCAPS. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:59, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Proper noun is the wrong phrase, used because I couldn't come up with a better one. I should've said "as arguable part of the title of the discrete entity that is the season". Press release for The Legend of Vox Machina has some interesting splits in it on that, one that AMC does not do in a Mad Men press release, but HBO capitalizes it throughout their official page for GoT as does Netflix. I don't actually feel very strongly about the capitalization, and "proper noun" is a slip on my part. I was attempting to observe that it is often considered part of the title of the concept of the season. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 19:58, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- To add, I agree with BD2412 stating above, though in a different context, that "season" would make it clear that this is a television series. I don't actually think it's likely that a reader will see "The Crown Season 3" or "The Simpsons season 34" and get confused about what the article is about, since that's how these things are referred to in common parlance anyway. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 20:10, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- That's just blindly assuming that the reader knows that The Crown is the title of a TV show. And season has mutiple meanings. There are lots of movies with "Season" in their titles, and if they have sequels they result in your preferred format for TV shows seasons; Open Season 2 is a real-world example that it only took me 15 seconds to find. So, this is provably confusing. I don't think "arguable part of the title of the discrete entity that is the season" really means anything concrete. And WP doesn't care what a couple of other websites prefer as their internal writing style – especially since they are in the business of selling access to these things as discrete "products", so they are inclined to view something like The Crown: Season 2 or The Crown, season 2 or whatever as a unitary name for an item of product, which has nothing to do with what WP is doing or thinking, or what our readers are for that matter. And the fact that people in the common parlance say aloud "The Crown season 2" has no implications of any kind for how we capitalize and punctuate, nor does how people write in social media, which is pretty much devoid of any semblance of typographic norms. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 20:56, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- I brought up common parlance per an idea that we can possibly expect readers broadly to be generally familiar with a 'title season number' construction. Most readers would probably parse "Loki season 2", "Loki: Season 2", "Loki - season 2", "Loki, Season 2", "Loki (season 2)", and "Season 2 of Loki" with equal comprehension. So, I don't think no separator would extremely confusing as a result. Common parlance offers no guidance as to which to pick, but it leads me to believe that they'd all be reasonably expected and understandable.
- Still, the argument does push me to find no punctuation with a lowercase preferable at this time. Functionally, it drops parentheses in most cases, "Loki season 2". Short descriptions and hatnotes further help readers confirm it's what they're looking for. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 22:27, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- That's just blindly assuming that the reader knows that The Crown is the title of a TV show. And season has mutiple meanings. There are lots of movies with "Season" in their titles, and if they have sequels they result in your preferred format for TV shows seasons; Open Season 2 is a real-world example that it only took me 15 seconds to find. So, this is provably confusing. I don't think "arguable part of the title of the discrete entity that is the season" really means anything concrete. And WP doesn't care what a couple of other websites prefer as their internal writing style – especially since they are in the business of selling access to these things as discrete "products", so they are inclined to view something like The Crown: Season 2 or The Crown, season 2 or whatever as a unitary name for an item of product, which has nothing to do with what WP is doing or thinking, or what our readers are for that matter. And the fact that people in the common parlance say aloud "The Crown season 2" has no implications of any kind for how we capitalize and punctuate, nor does how people write in social media, which is pretty much devoid of any semblance of typographic norms. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 20:56, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- I am terribly opposed to it, since its extremly confusing to anyone not already familar with what the article is about. And as for TonTonParasol's additional ideas, WP does not "treat [something] like a proper noun" if it isn't one, and we don't capitalize things unless they are capitalized in an overwhelming majority of RS ("many" doesn't cut it); see top of MOS:CAPS, and see also MOS:SIGCAPS. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:59, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- I am not terribly opposed to no punctuation, since a season of a show is its own discrete entity. BD2412 T 18:19, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- An argument that a season identifier after the series title "is comparable to a subtitle" isn't "technical" in any way; it's just confusion as to what "subtitle" means. The fact that a few publications like to punctuate these things with a colon really has nothing to do with what it is, nor with what WP should use for our internal article-titling practices, especially when we have a need to distinguish between something like "Show Title, season 2" (specificity) and "Show Title (Country TV series)" (true disambiguation). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 19:26, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- I think you're trying to argue that "Loki season 2" is somehow more natural than "Loki, season 2" or "Loki: season 2" or "Loki (season 2)", but we have no evidence suggesting this, and if the principle were generalizable and demonstrable, we would not use comma, colon, or parenthetial disambiguation in the first place. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:39, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- I'm just imagining what arguments may be made to go through the process of eliminating other solutions, and the colon is rather common in streaming listings, DVD listings, official website subsections, and publications, so I just wanted it addressed since it's a familiar convention. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 20:04, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Probably more productive to let people raise objections if they have rationales for them rather than try to invent ones you don't hold but imagine that someone else might hold. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 20:52, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- @TenTonParasol and King of Hearts: have you ever seen colons used in titles in Wikipedia other than to indicate formal subtitles, where the colon is part of the published name of the media? BD2412 T 16:14, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support in principle. Ranked preferences for format would be 1) no punctuation and lower case; 2) colon and lower case; 3) any of the other alternatives to parentheses suggested so far. older ≠ wiser 17:05, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support in principle, with a preference for no separator as that appears to be the most common approach in the (few) sources I spot-checked. I’d be open to another separator character if there were good source evidence for that usage, but if there’s no consensus amongst sources then simpler seems better. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 20:32, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with this, I vaguely recall noticing it a couple of times and being slightly confused at why we had parentheses there, it doesn't really seem to fit. I thought it might have been done to be useful for piping, in case an editor would just want to type something like "In 2023, Smith acted in [[Some Series (season 3)|]], ..." but it seems improbable because it doesn't scale beyond a single season, and if we mention an acting role beyond a list entry it's often going to be because it was multiple seasons, and besides, I don't know that we want to point an average reader reading a biography to a specific season with a pipe link anyway. --Joy (talk) 02:58, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support but with no punctuation, and lower case. And use full "country TV series) to disambig countries). Hyperbolick (talk) 01:11, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- Strong oppose for the following reasons:
- It looks horrendous and messy. Call this an IDONTLIKEIT comment, but I do think readability is a valid concern when it comes to article titles.
- To say that comma-separated disambiguation is more natural than parenthetical disambiguation is false. WP:NCDAB lists the three forms of disambiguation as natural, comma-separated, and parenthetical. Comma-separated disambiguation is therefore no more natural or unnatural than parenthetical disambiguation.
- It is also inaccurate to say that parenthetical disambiguation
disambiguate[s] different kinds of things sharing the same name
while comma-separated disambiguation does not. "Berkshire" in Windsor, Berkshire describes the larger area which the article subject is situated in, while "Princess of Wales" Diana, Princess of Wales describes who/what the article subject is. That means a comma functions the same way as parentheses, as outlined at WP:NCDAB. - Colons, not commas, are usually the go-to choice for indicating subtopics or "split" articles. See WP:NCSPLITLIST, for example. But in this case, a colon for season articles will only create complications for series whose titles already have a colon.
- The two comma-separated examples I listed above, Windsor, Berkshire and Diana, Princess of Wales, are constructions that are already commonly used outside of Wikipedia. Something like
Loki, season 2
, however, is not. If you look at sources online, sources usually go withLoki season 2
(the italics are sometimes swapped for quotation marks, depending on the source's style guide, and "season" is sometimes capitalized). Theoretically, that could work for us, but in my opinion that too looks messy and creates readibility issues. WP:ATWP:NCDAB is a guideline, not a policy. If there is no breach in policy, and the circumstances clearly warrant an WP:IAR situation, and parenthetical disambiguation has already been in place for a very long time, there is no reason for us to make such a drastic and meaningless change. WP:AINTBROKE.
- Also, this discussion needs to be advertised in more places, including WikiProjects with TV season articles. InfiniteNexus (talk) 01:55, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
- Um, WP:AT is actually policy :D Also, I don't quite understand the point about colons, when the linked naming convention for lists says it's a
preferred
model, and then immediately says a comma model iscommon and acceptable
. --Joy (talk) 11:20, 17 November 2023 (UTC)- Also, MOS:TITLE says we can use {{Italic title|string=Loki}} for the partially italicized style you mentioned. --Joy (talk) 11:23, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry, I meant NCDAB, not AT. I know about {{Italic title}}, but that still isn't as neat as having parentheses. My point about colons is that commas usually function the same as parentheses (for example with th Windsor and Diana examples), in which case there is no reason to change. MOS:VAR. InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:03, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
- @InfiniteNexus: Entire premise (yours and the OP) is faulty, isn’t it, though? Since these are unambiguous topics. Your point that there should be no commas or parens (eg with
Loki season 2
) is right on, though. Would only ever need parens if there were two different series with multiple seasons like aLoki (Australian TV series) season 2
Hyperbolick (talk) 01:24, 18 November 2023 (UTC)- The point is that it looks messier without parentheses. Sure, you can argue that's a cosmetic/ILIKEIT argument, but again, we should make sure our article titles are easy on readers' eyes. This isn't a disambiguation situation, therefore we are free to choose whatever method works best. InfiniteNexus (talk) 01:29, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
This isn't a disambiguation situation, therefore we are free to choose whatever method works best.
Are there really no rules for titles of unambiguous works? Not common mame, even? Hyperbolick (talk) 01:55, 18 November 2023 (UTC)(season 2)
vs., season 2
vs.season 2
isn't a matter of common vs. uncommon name, it's a matter of styling the already common name. The COMMONNAME argument would apply to a proposal to switch to(series 2)
or(part 2)
or whatever. InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:32, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
- The point is that it looks messier without parentheses. Sure, you can argue that's a cosmetic/ILIKEIT argument, but again, we should make sure our article titles are easy on readers' eyes. This isn't a disambiguation situation, therefore we are free to choose whatever method works best. InfiniteNexus (talk) 01:29, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
- @InfiniteNexus: Entire premise (yours and the OP) is faulty, isn’t it, though? Since these are unambiguous topics. Your point that there should be no commas or parens (eg with
- Sorry, I meant NCDAB, not AT. I know about {{Italic title}}, but that still isn't as neat as having parentheses. My point about colons is that commas usually function the same as parentheses (for example with th Windsor and Diana examples), in which case there is no reason to change. MOS:VAR. InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:03, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
- Also, MOS:TITLE says we can use {{Italic title|string=Loki}} for the partially italicized style you mentioned. --Joy (talk) 11:23, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
- Um, WP:AT is actually policy :D Also, I don't quite understand the point about colons, when the linked naming convention for lists says it's a
- Oppose or more specifically, allow comma use on a case-by-case basis. With several older programs, the nature of seasons really didn't matter, so calling something like, for example "Cheers, season 1" would not make any sense. There are programs that the season or series numbers does matter, namely something like Doctor Who where this comma usage would make sense, but that should not be established as a standard. --Masem (t) 03:36, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
- Huh? Doctor Who pre-dates Cheers by 19 years, so your "older programs" argument is completely backward. Why would Doctor Who, season 1 "make sense" but Cheers, season 1 "not make any sense"? What sense, to whom? This is so subjetive and odd that no, well, sense can be made of it as an argument. There doesn't appear to be anyone, anywhere for whom Cheers, season 1 does "not make any sense". It makes the perfect and obvious sense that it's about season 1 of Cheers, and given our disambiguation patterns, it makes much more sense than Cheers (season 1), which implies a type of thing called "season 1s" and a "Cheers" that happens to be one of those, just as Secretariat (horse) indicates an individual exemplar named "Secretariat" of a class of things called "horses". Your "doesn't make any sense" argument would seem to militate against even Cheers (season 1), anyway. And why shouldn't one pattern of the sort proposed here be "established as a standard", when WP:CONSISTENT policy clearly tells us to be consistent in our naming patterns, and we have WP:COMMADIS in the same policy placed higher than (i.e. preferable to) parenthetical disambiguation when the former is available. Just asserting that a standard shouldn't be established, without a rationale, isn't at all an argument against establishing a standard. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 04:15, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
- "Cheers, season 1" is not a way that the show is referred to, because outside of a few instances of actors, the seasons of that show generally ran together. And for Doctor Who, it is more like Doctor Who (series 1) (not season!) that could benefit for being called "Doctor Who, series 1" since that itself is generally well encapsulated and referred to as that. Masem (t) 04:27, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
- But Cheers, season 1 (punctuated however you like) is how that season of the show is referred to. We have an article on it, and it has sources. See also [1], including the first link where it is being official sold as season 1 of Cheers. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 04:48, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
- Which is why my vote is "Case by Case", rather than trying to force one way or the other. Where it falls naturally to use commas, use them there; otherwise, where there is no major distinctions of seasons of a show, probably better to use paratheticals. Masem (t) 05:30, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- But there is no case where using a comma for this would be "unnatural"; it's just one of the several competing but common ways to write these things, and we should use one consistently instead of veer back and forth between conflicting styles for no reason. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:11, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- Agree with SMcCandlish, don't think this point about Cheers is particularly clear. -- Wikipedical (talk) 16:34, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- But there is no case where using a comma for this would be "unnatural"; it's just one of the several competing but common ways to write these things, and we should use one consistently instead of veer back and forth between conflicting styles for no reason. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:11, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- Which is why my vote is "Case by Case", rather than trying to force one way or the other. Where it falls naturally to use commas, use them there; otherwise, where there is no major distinctions of seasons of a show, probably better to use paratheticals. Masem (t) 05:30, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- There is also a Doctor Who (season 1). Gonnym (talk) 12:40, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
- But Cheers, season 1 (punctuated however you like) is how that season of the show is referred to. We have an article on it, and it has sources. See also [1], including the first link where it is being official sold as season 1 of Cheers. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 04:48, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
- "Cheers, season 1" is not a way that the show is referred to, because outside of a few instances of actors, the seasons of that show generally ran together. And for Doctor Who, it is more like Doctor Who (series 1) (not season!) that could benefit for being called "Doctor Who, series 1" since that itself is generally well encapsulated and referred to as that. Masem (t) 04:27, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
- Huh? Doctor Who pre-dates Cheers by 19 years, so your "older programs" argument is completely backward. Why would Doctor Who, season 1 "make sense" but Cheers, season 1 "not make any sense"? What sense, to whom? This is so subjetive and odd that no, well, sense can be made of it as an argument. There doesn't appear to be anyone, anywhere for whom Cheers, season 1 does "not make any sense". It makes the perfect and obvious sense that it's about season 1 of Cheers, and given our disambiguation patterns, it makes much more sense than Cheers (season 1), which implies a type of thing called "season 1s" and a "Cheers" that happens to be one of those, just as Secretariat (horse) indicates an individual exemplar named "Secretariat" of a class of things called "horses". Your "doesn't make any sense" argument would seem to militate against even Cheers (season 1), anyway. And why shouldn't one pattern of the sort proposed here be "established as a standard", when WP:CONSISTENT policy clearly tells us to be consistent in our naming patterns, and we have WP:COMMADIS in the same policy placed higher than (i.e. preferable to) parenthetical disambiguation when the former is available. Just asserting that a standard shouldn't be established, without a rationale, isn't at all an argument against establishing a standard. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 04:15, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
- Note: The 10 following WikiProjects and taskforces have been notified of this discussion: WikiProject Animation, WikiProject Anime and manga, the Arrowverse task force, WikiProject Disney, WikiProject Doctor Who, the Episode coverage task force, the Marvel Cinematic Universe task force, WikiProject Star Trek, WikiProject Star Wars, and WikiProject The Simpsons. InfiniteNexus (talk) 04:22, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
- Leaning support for "X season Y" without colon or comma, I could accept comma but I think its best without. Either way the parentheses need to go, they create a mess for Wikidata.★Trekker (talk) 08:30, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
- Could you explain the issue with Wikidata? Gonnym (talk) 12:38, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
- Wikidata doesn't (generally) allow brackets or disambiguators in labels, which means a lot of the time for season items people have to come in and manually fix all season labels and add descriptions for them to be useful otherwise all of them end up looking identical without descriptions, if we had a format without brackets all that work could be done by bots instead.★Trekker (talk) 19:26, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
- Could you explain the issue with Wikidata? Gonnym (talk) 12:38, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
- Weak support X season Y; I usually just edit anime articles, so apologies if this argument is too centered around that, but using One Piece as an example, due to there being two TV series of the same nationality (One Piece (1999 TV series) and One Piece (2023 TV series)) the year is used as disambiguation. However, based on WP:TVSEASON, which states If there are multiple shows of the same name, include the disambiguation, similar to the above for TV series in the season description, means the season pages like One Piece (season 1) should be titled "One Piece (1999 TV series season 1)", which I think looks awkward, whereas "One Piece (1999 TV series) season 1" I think looks more appealing, though perhaps this is veering too much into WP:ILIKEIT territory. Link20XX (talk) 05:00, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. The season number is not generally part of the name, for example Doctor Who season 1 and Doctor Who season 2 are technically both just called Doctor Who. That is why it is appropriate to include the season number in disambig parentheses, just like if we were talking about two different series called Doctor Who. If there was consensus for "Doctor Who (season 1)" breaking the normal disambig rules then it should be changed to "Doctor Who season 1", not "Doctor Who, season 1". - adamstom97 (talk) 21:14, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support. I'll just repeat what I wrote three years ago: "The parenthetical disambiguation for season articles never made any sense to me. Grammatically, the parentheses in my view emphasize the series itself and make the season seem like an afterthought, whereas the article is actually about the season. Sure, 'it ain't broke,' but no one has pointed out a downside to improving this naming convention." -- Wikipedical (talk) 21:24, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
- I'll be the one: parentheses are much cleaner, as they clearly distinguish the season number from the show title. Removing parentheses would mean everything is jumbled together in a confusing manner, and readers may need to read an article title twice before catching on. I can foresee problems especially with shows with longer titles. And with any major change comes a massive headache. First there's the cleanup effort. This will likely be done using bots/AWB, but it is still a massive task that requires substantial planning — for example, what to do with unusual/tricky cases — and will cause significant disruption. By disruption I mean (1) everyone's watchlists will be inundated with page moves, (2) editors unaware of this non-RfC will be bewildered, and we all saw what happened with the Vector 2022 rollout, and (3) editors will need to be retrained. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:22, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- "Cleaner" is an opinion that I disagree with, but it also ignores my (and other editors') point that the article is about the season, not the show, so the subject should be emphasized. Parentheticals are usually used to disambiguate subjects with the same name– that's not the case here, since the seasons are the focal point– User:BD2412's example about George Washington is exactly right. The page moves point is not a big concern. Four years ago we changed every "U.S. TV series" and "UK TV series" to "American" and "British," respectively – the moves happened smoothly and no one's thinking about the logistics of that any longer. -- Wikipedical (talk) 16:24, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- I'll be the one: parentheses are much cleaner, as they clearly distinguish the season number from the show title. Removing parentheses would mean everything is jumbled together in a confusing manner, and readers may need to read an article title twice before catching on. I can foresee problems especially with shows with longer titles. And with any major change comes a massive headache. First there's the cleanup effort. This will likely be done using bots/AWB, but it is still a massive task that requires substantial planning — for example, what to do with unusual/tricky cases — and will cause significant disruption. By disruption I mean (1) everyone's watchlists will be inundated with page moves, (2) editors unaware of this non-RfC will be bewildered, and we all saw what happened with the Vector 2022 rollout, and (3) editors will need to be retrained. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:22, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support As the above mentions, this was brought up three years ago (started by myself, nonetheless), and I still support such a change. The format specifically, I have no issues with, whether it's a comma or no separation between show and season I agree with both, but we need to get rid of the parentheses. To paraphrase my quote above, The Flash (2014 TV series) is titled as such because The Flash is a 2014 TV series, and by following that line of thought, The Flash (season 1) would be titled as such because The Flash is a "season 1". If that were the case, the lead should state "The Flash is the first season of the American television series The Flash", but it is rather a subset of a wider project. -- Alex_21 TALK 09:02, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support I prefer no comma here, since "The Simpsons, season 8 episodes" is awkward compared to "The Simpsons season 8 episodes" and the current Category:The Simpsons (season 8) episodes. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:29, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- Weak oppose – I understand the general principle, but I don't think the benefit of switching to commas is worth the work needed to make the changes. (I also personally find the commas awkward but I understand if people want to ignore that argument.) If we really wanted to make a change, we could go with "Season X (Show)" – this would be more in line with disambiguation norms and it would enable the pipe trick when people want to link to season articles, but that's a much different idea than what is being proposed here. RunningTiger123 (talk) 20:36, 22 November 2023 (UTC)