→User:KrishnaVastav: blocked |
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:::::::Thanks @[[User talk:Trey Maturin|Trey Maturin]]. That's a little misleading.[[User:Yousef Raz|Yousef Raz]] ([[User talk:Yousef Raz|talk]]) 20:53, 17 May 2021 (UTC) |
:::::::Thanks @[[User talk:Trey Maturin|Trey Maturin]]. That's a little misleading.[[User:Yousef Raz|Yousef Raz]] ([[User talk:Yousef Raz|talk]]) 20:53, 17 May 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::::Even if he had been an admin, participating in a content discussion is not an admin action – admins have no special privileges or powers when it comes to content questions. In any case, I fail to see anything inappropriate in that response. Exasperated, yes, uncivil, no – apart from the fact that the part you quote specifically isn't even directed at any of the participants in the discussion. --''[[User:Bonadea|bonadea]]'' <small>[[Special:Contributions/Bonadea|contributions]] [[User talk:Bonadea|talk]]</small> 21:28, 17 May 2021 (UTC) |
::::::::Even if he had been an admin, participating in a content discussion is not an admin action – admins have no special privileges or powers when it comes to content questions. In any case, I fail to see anything inappropriate in that response. Exasperated, yes, uncivil, no – apart from the fact that the part you quote specifically isn't even directed at any of the participants in the discussion. --''[[User:Bonadea|bonadea]]'' <small>[[Special:Contributions/Bonadea|contributions]] [[User talk:Bonadea|talk]]</small> 21:28, 17 May 2021 (UTC) |
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::::For the avoidance of doubt, I do not think that {{u|Yousef Raz}} is an insurrectionist. I ''do'' think that many of the people who were sucked into the insurrection exhibit some or all of the qualities of cult victims - not an especially controversial view given the prevalence of QAnon belief in this group. I have sympathy with people who genuinely believed that they were going to save America from democracy, restore Trump to his throne, and be feted as heroes. It's easy to see how those who live entirely within the bubble of conservative media might come to that conclusion, delusional though it so very obviously is to those of us that consume a diet of facts and reality. I have sympathy. But that sympathy stops short of whitewashing the insurrection. '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]] - [[User:JzG/Typos|typo?]])</small> 21:37, 17 May 2021 (UTC) |
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Very inappropriate attitude on talk (violates NPA, CIV, BATTLEGROUND)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Exxess (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I've recently become aware of some very disturbing edits by User:Exxess on Talk:Szlachta. I've interacted with him very little (disclaimer: while most of NPAs at that talk page are directed at User:Lembit Staan, some are directed at me; reviewing the history it seems I've had some interactions with that editor a few years back), but what I see is very disturbing and seems to breach WP:NPA, WP:CIV, WP:AGF and WP:BATTLEGROUND. It seems impossible to discuss anything with that user there given their attitude. I'll note here that their edits to the article itself are mostly ok, but whenever they are challenged, even on a slight matter, Exxess responds with a walls of text in the form of extremly uncivil rant of the scale I've rarely seen in all my years here. Here are some diffs and quotations, from most recent to oldest:
- [1]
- "to hell with your petty WP:NPA/[[WP:CIV]" <-- self explanatory...
- "There seems to be a clique that regards Polish articles as their fiefdom. I defeated Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus in a request for deletion regarding the Żądło-Dąbrowski z Dąbrówki, herbu Radwan family article. Then what Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus did was round up his little clique and posse, and I was accused of sock-puppetry" <-- battleground language/ABF and WP:ASSERTIONS
- "Now, we have another knee-jerk editor, Lembit Staan, who tried to round up a posse here - Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Poland#Szlachta"
- " Lembit Staan taking umbrage with calling the szlachta an electorate is idiotic and stupid" <--WP:ASSERTIONS, ABF
- "Forget summoning your friends, and fight your own battles. " <--WP:ASSERTIONS, ABF, battleground
- "STOOPID - brainless indeed. And mentally disordered. See lunacy above."
- [2]
- "Knee-jerk editor Lembit Staan strikes again. This editor is bitching and moaning at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Poland#Szlachta"
- " This kind of prodigious, knee-jerk stupidity and idiocy is difficult to comprehend, yet alone tolerate. "
- "Lembit Staan gonna' try to round up a posse and a clique at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Poland#Szlachta, so he can make some half-assed, idiotic attempt at "consensus" despite what the sources state."
- ":Lembit Staan, you really think Wikipedia exists to reinforce your ignorance, misconceptions, and prejudices. [...] Then you cry ORIGINAL RESEARCH and WP:SYNTH when your idiotic, knee-jerk deletions get challenged. There is no way to dance around the idiocy of this one. "
- "Keep an eye on this editor Lembit Staan. Really takes umbrage if editor's edits are challenged, particularly when they are stupid"
- [3]
- "I disagree with everything. It's a reflex" <-- not a good attitude to have by default
- "let us have a war about that" <-- BATTLEGROUND
- "stop the trespass, and let me work" <--WP:OWN attitude
- [4]
- "a superlative brainless example of Lembit Staan's statement, "brainless replacement of the word 'szlachta' with 'nobility'", and all this after a debate determining the title of the article should not be "Polish nobility"; but the lead sentence is in direct contradiction to the article title "Szlachta." Brainless and confused indeed. Knee-jerk editing" (also note the edit summary)
Just today, this spilled into WT:POLAND:
- [5]
- "Lembit Staan, what is dubious is you contradicting the obvious. You are wasting time with trifles and the immaterial. At first I was questioning your intelligence. Now I am questioning your sanity. "
- [6]
- "Pal, (Lembit Staan) you want to talk bullshit and nonsense, so let's demonstrate yours "
- "Wrong, you cannot read."
- "You have a primordial misunderstanding regarding facts, which requires countering your knee-jerk deletions and crap with forthrightness."
- "Pal, here is some advice for you - do not fight facts and secondary sources with stubbornness and knee-jerk deletions."
- [7]
- "I revert your edits because your edits are knee-jerk and idiotic."
- "So, because the great Lembit Staan does not comprehend history, or law, he is going to cry"
- "So, what you are bitching and moaning about is the fact you're publicly being shown you do not know what you're editing about, and when you PERSONALLY do not agree with something you DO NOT UNDERSTAND, or ever considered, you just knee-jerk delete, and start flinging accusations of original research and synth, and stumble right through the secondary sources, and pick yourself and keep going, then you try to round up a posse to support your half-assed, knee-jerk edits. I told you to take it to talk. You ran away. Then you come here and try to round up a posse."
- "You knee-jerk editors who think anything on Wikipedia regarding Poland is your personal fiefdom get stopped dead in your tracks by the secondary sources. Then, you try to round up your little clique, but fail."
- "Stay away for good, Lembit Staan, because you do more harm than good with your limited capacity to read English and comprehend what the secondary sources state"
- "Do the world a favor, Lembit Staan, and stay away from this article, which is too complex for your limited powers of comprehension"
There is more but I think the above is sufficient to demonstrate a problematic pattern - one that has been going on for years. Note that this editor was inactive for a while, sometime taking wikibreaks that last over a year, but he displayed a similar, problematic attitude when he was active at the talk page of the same article in the past:
- in 2018:
- And more ancient history from 2011:
- Civility warning from User:Vecrumba instantly deleted by Exxess as "Deleted meddling" in the next diff. I actually forgot about this but this complain was apparently related to a personal attack against me: "You know what, Konieczny? The thought of my comments from yesterday being here nauseates me. Your archive will be the edit history. Your conception of what nobility is, particularly Polish nobility, is so underdeveloped and ignorant, callow and juvenile, it's laughable trying to have an intelligent discussion with you in regards to its significance" and more
- "Too ludicrous on such a fundamental, primordial level to even discuss without boggling the mind. DELETE IT ALL, like washing cow crap off one's self." (in edit summary)
- and "You really do enjoy coming across with an authoritarian tone, don't you?" ... ":You do read, right, or is that demanding too much?"... "You and the little group of editors you canvassed and rallied around yourself"
- Also note that this topic is within the old discretionary sanctions that this editor was informed about all the way back in 2008: [8]
- And last, a CIV warning from all the way back that year too: [9]
Just in case, let me point our recent attempts at dispute resolution: Lembit Staan asked for assistance at WT:POLAND a bit over a weeks ago, and yesterday I asked User:El C for review and mediation at Talk:Szlachta, but he declined to get involved. Exxess was aware of both of those requests, since they responded in their usual wall-of-text uncivil style in both places. Since community discussion at WikiProject and ping to an admin who was (until recently) active in related topic areas failed to provide any resolution, I see no recourse but to come to ANI.
While we can always use some more active editors in the obscure topic area of pre-20th century Polish history, and Exxess seems to have some knowledge about the topic, this kind of attitude and behavior (BATTLEGROUND, OWN, personal attacks, and the wall-off-text style they are wrapped in) cannot be allowed to continue: it leads to 'winning' disputes by making everyone else leave: recently, Lembit Staan mentioned at WT:POLAND "If the community does not participate, who I am to want more and I am removing szlachta from my watchlist for 2 months; not worth my mental health". Therefore I'd like to ask the administrators & community for intervention. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:58, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus, you forgot to put in here Lembit Staan calling what I put in the article "bullshit" despite the secondary sources, because it is something "he never heard of." Once again, I do not consider being forthright a problem. The goal is to improve the article. And, a detailed discussion is not a "wall-of-text" style with the intent to stop discussion. I am inviting discussion and challenging your behavior, your edits, and Lembit Staan's edits. Stick to the facts. You personally knee-jerk deleted something I was in the middle of editing. Based on what? See detailed discussion. I do not recall reading any policy on a character limit for talk discussions, so I personally think you are taking matters out of context, and painting a very misleading picture, just like when you lost a deletion debate, then you gathered a posse, and accused me of sock-puppetry. False claim. Stick to improving the article and the facts. The extent some editors will go to when they are challenged. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus - you are always appealing for outside help. Consistently. - Exxess (talk) 06:03, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
- There is an article called Royal elections in Poland. I do think it is stupid for Lembit Staan to object to the szlachta being called an electorate. Being forthright. I think that particular assertion is stupid. There is no way to dance around that one. - Exxess (talk) 06:10, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus - deletion meddling? That was an honest mistake and you are a disingenuous editor. You are very good at ignoring the rules when it suits your purposes, like canvassing, until you are challenged, then, upon your edits being challenged, you rigidly assert violation of the "rules." "Deletion meddling" - that was an honest mistake. Korwinsky was another editor who just knee-jerk deleted a reference because he thought it would "mislead readers." Presumptuous in the extreme. - Exxess (talk) 06:15, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
- I see that Exxess has replied three times without denying that they have engaged in personal attacks and harassment. Perhaps that is because the diffs provided above show quite clearly that Exxess has repeatedly engaged in that type of misconduct. I have blocked Exxess for one week. Exxess, when you return, abandon personal attacks and harassment. If your misconduct resumes, the next block will be for a much longer time. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:29, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
- Given the editor's comments on their talk page, this might as well be extended to indef. They've indicated they see nothing wrong with their behavior & will resume it when the block ends. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 20:27, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
- HandThatFeeds, Cullen328, Given Lembit Staan's comment below, I proposed a ban on post-size limit (nobody can be reasonable expected to read those rantish walls of texts Exxess mass produces). Given his later talk page comments, Exxess now demands an apology from editors he offended, while simoultenesly asking for a longer block. Sigh. I have serious doubts he is learning anything from this. This reminds of this mini-essay I wrote a while ago. Editors convinced of their own perfection are hard to reform. PS. All that said, I hate blocking people who show a willingness to reform, which is why my suggestion was the word-size limit. It's plausible Exxess could be an asset to the project, IF his talk posts were civil and readable. But said willingness to reform is hard to see right now. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:16, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
- Piotrus, I have withdrawn their talk page accesss and warned them that they will be blocked again if the personal attacks resume when their current block expires. I am not a fan of highly customized editing restrictions, but if the community disagrees with me, so be it. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 02:49, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
- HandThatFeeds, Cullen328, Given Lembit Staan's comment below, I proposed a ban on post-size limit (nobody can be reasonable expected to read those rantish walls of texts Exxess mass produces). Given his later talk page comments, Exxess now demands an apology from editors he offended, while simoultenesly asking for a longer block. Sigh. I have serious doubts he is learning anything from this. This reminds of this mini-essay I wrote a while ago. Editors convinced of their own perfection are hard to reform. PS. All that said, I hate blocking people who show a willingness to reform, which is why my suggestion was the word-size limit. It's plausible Exxess could be an asset to the project, IF his talk posts were civil and readable. But said willingness to reform is hard to see right now. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:16, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
- Given the editor's comments on their talk page, this might as well be extended to indef. They've indicated they see nothing wrong with their behavior & will resume it when the block ends. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 20:27, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
- I see that Exxess has replied three times without denying that they have engaged in personal attacks and harassment. Perhaps that is because the diffs provided above show quite clearly that Exxess has repeatedly engaged in that type of misconduct. I have blocked Exxess for one week. Exxess, when you return, abandon personal attacks and harassment. If your misconduct resumes, the next block will be for a much longer time. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:29, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus - deletion meddling? That was an honest mistake and you are a disingenuous editor. You are very good at ignoring the rules when it suits your purposes, like canvassing, until you are challenged, then, upon your edits being challenged, you rigidly assert violation of the "rules." "Deletion meddling" - that was an honest mistake. Korwinsky was another editor who just knee-jerk deleted a reference because he thought it would "mislead readers." Presumptuous in the extreme. - Exxess (talk) 06:15, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
- I am amused by how my accuser, wrongdoer Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here, writes about me as if I am in a larval stage of development, while all means of countering, resisting, and destroying the false claims hurled against me were forced from my fighting fingers, upon the deprivation of my Wikipedia-given freedom to edit.
- You may measure an editor by observing the editors aligned against him.
- I am also amused by how my accuser, wrongdoer Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here, is attempting to govern my Wikipedia-given freedom to edit. By what right, does my accuser presume I wish to have him administer and govern my Wikipedia-given freedom to edit?
- I am sure I will now be accused of harassment for courteously notifying my accuser Piotrus his wrongdoing is being discussed in a public forum.
- Does not Wikipedia state, "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it."? Does not Wikipedia state, "Be bold can be explained in three words: 'Go for it.' .... Fix it yourself instead of just talking about it."
- I saw a Wikipedia problem, and I Wikipedia boldly fixed it. I did no wrong. But wrong was done to me. My faultless 14-year record was besmirched with a one-week block, for Personal attacks or violations of the harassment policy, and now I will forever be evaluated in light of that besmirch, while my accuser, wrongdoer Piotrus, was allowed to accuse at will, while all means of countering, resisting, and destroying the false claims hurled against me were forced from my fighting fingers, and I was tossed into a Wikipedia pillory (my talk page), and deprived of my Wikipedia-given freedom to edit, to counter wrongdoer Piotrus' willfully made false claims. I question the neutrality and impartiality of the one who forced me into a Wikipedia pillory (my talk page), and removed all means of countering, resisting, and destroying the false claims hurled against me by depriving me of my Wikipedia-given freedom to edit, while allowing wrongdoer Piotrus to edit at will.
- As I attempted to be heard, to counter, resist, and destroy the false claims hurled at me, my ability to be heard was limited by accusations of "walls-of-text," "walls-of-text," "walls-of-text."
For the record: My major problem with the article "Szlachta" was not the belligerent editor, but the apparent lack of interest of the Polish community to the subject. I admit I may be in error, and asked them for a third opinion several times, but got none, and the article continues to be dominated by a WP:OWNer. Heck, I even did not complain then they violated the 3RR reverting my "knee-jerk" edits. I understand that only a community can handle a WP:OWNer. But the community seems to be deterred by the repetitive walls of text generated by this editor. Forcing this editor to be more polite will not solve the problems with the article text they generated. When I come back there in 2 months, I feel I will have to go in a hard way of the procedure of formal dispute resolution for each and every dubious statement this user introduced. Lembit Staan (talk) 18:15, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
Exxess has returned, and gone right back to walls of text. Thankfully no insults yet. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 15:33, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Wow, — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite - well, look at that. I'm not defenseless anymore. Looks like I'm going to have several ANI cases of my own soon.
- Hey, since you mentioned the wall-of-text, and you pinged me, do you think Lembit Staan is right? Take it over to Talk:Szlachta#Wikipedia:No_original_research;_Wikipedia:SYNTHESIS. I hope that looming wall-of-text is not terrifying anyone. It is dark under its shadow. Would not want an ANI case for terrorism by way of "wall-of-text"... Notice the editors mentioned there, and how polite I am - Piotrus and Lembit Staan.
- And, while you are there, look at this paragon of brilliance, "obsolete sources." Anything prior to World War II, is an "obsolete source". That should be applied Wikipedia-wide. When Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here deletes something, that could never be "deletion meddling". I can't be accused of not trying to be polite before we got here, but I never got a chance to mention that before being put in the pillory (blocked) and deprived of my Wikipedia-given freedom to edit. - Read: Talk:Szlachta#Please_avoid_using_obsolete_sources
- I have to compliment Piotrus. Since I first joined Wikipedia 26 May 2007, 14 years ago, whenever Wikipedia is causing me nauseating, severe migraines, Piotrus has always been there for me. I cannot thank him enough. And now, I have Lembit Staan, too, so the migraines disappear twice as fast. After I get banned, no more migraines at all. - Exxess (talk) 18:31, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
FOR THE RECORD - Inciting a mob because no editor of their own accord took this editor below's position, or rallied to his side, upon his bad-faith presumption Exxess is "dominating and screwing up the article and talk page", because the editor below presumed so, because the editor below's logic could not possibly be wrong. Wrongdoer Piotrus did not cry, "Foul, foul, foul," or cry, "Personal attack", or "Incivility," or file an ANI report, or drop a hint the editor below is an example of an editor who thinks they are perfect, with an admonition that this editor read the pontifications in the essays of wrongdoer Piotrus. There was no possibility Exxess was trying to help and improve the article. Exxess has spent 14 years waging war on Wikipedia, as if that was a rule, not an exception, so shows the picture wrongdoer Piotrus presented. Of course, there is no possibility Piotrus could ever be anything but perfectly equitable and fair. Wrongdoer Piotrus comes with clean hands:
- "No it is not. This user [Exxess] keeps pumping bullshit his own interpretations into the article: More precisely, the szlachta were not a nobility nor a gentry, but an electorate. Really? I keep repeating that edits of this user [Exxess] must be monitored. Lembit Staan (talk) 16:25, 24 April 2021 (UTC)" - Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Poland#Szlachta
- "<sigh> For God's sake, really? Nobody has a say against all this illogical rambling [by Exxess]? Shall I file WP:RFC for very nonsense this guy [Exxess] introduced? (Coming back there in 2 months). Lembit Staan (talk) 19:27, 4 May 2021 (UTC)" - Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Poland#Szlachta
FOR THE RECORD - NOT an Extended Discussion, or Talk, on a Page Called "Talk"; But Another Repetitive, Bullshit, Illogical, Rambling, Nonsense "Wall of Text", which, to quote wrongdoer Piotrus, "nobody can be reasonable expected to read those rantish walls of texts Exxess mass produces", on an article where it is obvious Exxess is claiming ownership:
Evidence - Talk:Szlachta#Wikipedia:No_original_research;_Wikipedia:SYNTHESIS
- Of course wrongdoer Piotrus painted a picture of a battle-hardened Exxess, and the hands that painted that picture were perfectly clean, and wrongdoer Piotrus, being nothing but perfectly equitable and fair, would wish me to present this about my accuser, also in the interests of Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Due_and_undue_weight:
- Regarding wrongdoer Piotrus: "In my view the A.M. part of your appeal demonstrates.. what to call it... a lack of forthcoming-ness. The remainder of the appeal, in which you speak of WP's losses from your lack of participation, that's a different story that others can think over."
- Novickas (talk) 17:05, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Wrongdoer Piotrus went through 14 years of my Wikipedia history and could only site a possible clash with two editors in 14 years - wrongdoer Piotrus and Lembit Staan, but as concerns wrongdoer Pitorus, wrongdoer states himself, "I've interacted with him (Exxess) very little," so, for all intents and purposes, one editor in 14 years - Lembit Staan. Both editors I stated I am neutral about. - Exxess (talk) 23:15, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Wow. Uh. Does anyone have time to read all of that?--Jorm (talk) 23:21, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- I read it, and I also read Talk:Szlachta. I don't know how it's possible for anyone to work on an article with Exxess. The haranguing, the condescension and snarkiness, the needless repetition...it's exhausting, just reading it. Schazjmd (talk) 23:44, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Sooo... are the three dozen uses of "wrongdoer Piotrus" just a particularly inept attempt at being insulting? Because if so, I think the block just expired would seem not to have registered to any noticeable degree. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 00:37, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- I vote to indef block Exxess. Wikipedia is not some social media site where people score points by mocking and insulting those with whom they disagree. It is a project to build an encyclopedia, an endeavor that requires maintenance of a level of not just civility, but professionalism. BD2412 T 00:47, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Support indef block. The comments in this thread are a pale echo of the editor's behavior on the article talk page. That they are participating on the talk page rather than edit-warring their preferred content is a point in their favor, but what happens on the talk page is not a civil, collegial attempt to reach consensus. Until Exxess can find a new approach to working with others, the other editors should not have to endure that treatment. Schazjmd (talk) 01:04, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Support indef: Clearly the block has not had any effect, with them still engaging in WP:TLDR-violating posts and veiled personal attacks as mentioned above. Enough WP:ROPE has been extended. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 02:20, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Support indef or lesser sanctions "Exxess"'s recent behaviour is inconsistent with a collaborative project, including the Idonthearitis (as evidenced by their walls of text), the personnal attacks, and so on. They don't seem to have been blocked before. I'm not sure an indef (or community ban) is the best solution, but their editing has been confined to mostly one topic so far (see [https://xtools.wmflabs.org/ec/en.wikipedia.org/Exxess xtools), which may be evidence of OWN as previously described, and is evidence that a lesser sanction would not prevent future disruption. I would nevertheless support a lesser sanction of a topic ban (possibly enforced with an indef partial black from the relevant page) to see if they have something constructive to contribute elsewhere, since the current situation might just be unfortunate heat (see Wikipedia:Incivility blocks), and per the general principle of escalating sanctions. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:49, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Editors:
- Elmidae (talk · contribs)
- BD2412 T
- Schazjmd (talk)
- User:TheDragonFire300
- RandomCanadian (talk / contribs)
- Your comments are noted for the record.
- I did write in regards to this matter, on my talk page, that Wikipedia is not facebook, a place to collect friends and likes.
- I also stated on my talk page I would accept a PERMANENT BAN. That would NOT be a reflection on my behavior.
- When I write Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here is a wrongdoer, that is a not a smug, snide, underhanded insult. I mean it as a fact.
- I am debating whether I should open several ANI cases of my own. It depends on how magnanimous I wish to be.
- I prefer to work things out editor-to-editor, and never bring matters here, to ANI.
- My attempts to have extended discussions on the talk page for that article Szlachta, to the points made above, are labeled "walls-of-text", or "illogical ramblings".
- I find that very interesting.
- I think Cullen328 Let's discuss it, the admin in this matter, was derelict. - Exxess (talk) 22:09, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Please do not use signatures to refer to other editors. We have special templates for that purpose, see
{{ping}}
. The initial evidence was quite clearly establishing of your history of personal attacks, and you continuing to refer to "wrongdoer Piotrus" is not helping that reputation. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 00:45, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Please do not use signatures to refer to other editors. We have special templates for that purpose, see
- I think Cullen328 Let's discuss it, the admin in this matter, was derelict. - Exxess (talk) 22:09, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Hectoring comments in a RM discussion by Dicklyon
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I'm concerned about Dicklyon (talk · contribs)'s behaviour regarding the Battle of the Mons Pocket article. They are unhappy with the capitalisation of the article's title. After some move warring ([10]) during an initial talk page discussion, they did the right thing and started a RM discussion. However, during the initial discussion and the RM they have repeatedly insulted me and hectored the other editors who disagree with them about this rather minor issue. Diffs and quotes:
- Insult directed at me [11] ("Maybe you're often distracted by titles?")
- Hectoring an editor who opposed the move while insulting me again [12] ("What do you mean, "per Nick"? You just want to repeat what he said that was demonstrated false?")
- Hectoring another editor who opposed the move while insulting me further [13] ("That's a rather preposterous presumption, given how wrongly he characterized the case usage in the sources he cited. He is obviously not up to speed on WP's capitalization guidelines."
This aggressive behaviour over a minor issue seems utterly unnecessary - it's obviously entirely possible to have differing views about capitalisation of a word without throwing insults around and needing to hector everyone who disagrees with you! Dicklyon has been blocked multiple times for edit warring, and this suggests that there is an ongoing problem which I would be grateful if an admin could follow up on. Nick-D (talk) 09:50, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
- The "maybe you're often distracted by titles?" comment does not read as an insult to me. I think they were just suggesting that you came to the wrong conclusion because you were misled by some occurrences of the term in the context of titles. (Incidentally, the addition of the "maybe" hedge plus the question mark makes this read as a very mild/polite form of contradiction.) Unless there's some more context missing, I think you've been a bit quick to impute bad faith there. Colin M (talk) 00:38, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
- Dicklyon is often forceful during move discussions, and I've been on the receiving end of that forcefulness before, but frankly I'm not seeing an issue here. That said, Dicklyon should keep in mind that many Wikipedians are not, in fact, up to speed on capitalization guidelines and that he is often the ambassador for those guidelines. Mackensen (talk) 03:18, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, but even after I subsequently followed his suggestion and started an RM discussion, he repeated the error and two other guys seconded that. Definitely they needed some pushback, as you can see there. Dicklyon (talk) 03:20, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
- If other people support a particular capitalisation then they don't "need pushback". When people disagree with you it may mean that things are not as clear-cut as you believe them to be. According to WP:RM "Use this process if there is any reason to believe a move would be contested" - given the history of disputes about the capitalisation of this sort of thing you must surely know by now that these moves are likely to be contested. I suggest you use RM from now on. DuncanHill (talk) 14:23, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, since Nick disagreed, we are using the RM process. The guys who joined him without saying why needed pushback because they gave no argument based in sources or guidelines, just an "opinion" that Nick liking capitalization there is better. That's not how an RM discussion is supposed to work. Dicklyon (talk) 19:26, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
- I actually provided multiple sources to support the capitalised usage here, so was not relying on my opinion. It is beyond me why this editor is so aggressive about this minor matter and is continuing to attack me and the other editors who oppose the move. Nick-D (talk) 22:41, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
- Maybe because what you "provided" there was shown to be false, which you have not acknowledged, and the others have failed to account for. Dicklyon (talk) 23:17, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
- This isn't really the place to rehash the merits of the ongoing RM discussion. In my view, as per Mackensen and Colin M, Dicklyon can sometimes have strongly held convictions, but although his comments may not have been especially polite, they seem basically within the bounds of Wikipedia routine discourse. — BarrelProof (talk) 01:10, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
- I actually provided multiple sources to support the capitalised usage here, so was not relying on my opinion. It is beyond me why this editor is so aggressive about this minor matter and is continuing to attack me and the other editors who oppose the move. Nick-D (talk) 22:41, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, since Nick disagreed, we are using the RM process. The guys who joined him without saying why needed pushback because they gave no argument based in sources or guidelines, just an "opinion" that Nick liking capitalization there is better. That's not how an RM discussion is supposed to work. Dicklyon (talk) 19:26, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
- If other people support a particular capitalisation then they don't "need pushback". When people disagree with you it may mean that things are not as clear-cut as you believe them to be. According to WP:RM "Use this process if there is any reason to believe a move would be contested" - given the history of disputes about the capitalisation of this sort of thing you must surely know by now that these moves are likely to be contested. I suggest you use RM from now on. DuncanHill (talk) 14:23, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, but even after I subsequently followed his suggestion and started an RM discussion, he repeated the error and two other guys seconded that. Definitely they needed some pushback, as you can see there. Dicklyon (talk) 03:20, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
@HAL333 and SnowFire: since your comments at the subject RM are under discussion here. Dicklyon (talk) 23:19, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
- That's not "hectoring". The complainant has some history of accusing Dicklyon of aggression, hectoring, etc., when the complainant isn't getting his way. This kind of escalation is a waste of ANI's time. Tony (talk) 01:47, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
- I don't recall ever encountering Dicklyon before, so I'm not sure what history you're referring to. It's a bit odd that you're accusing me of Trumpian escalation while throwing muck at me here. Nick-D (talk) 02:02, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
- Probably Tony refers to the section just above the RM, which he chimed in on, where you accused me of insulting you a few days before this "hectoring" accusation. Dicklyon (talk) 05:38, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah, that would probably answer it. D'oh. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 03:12, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Probably Tony refers to the section just above the RM, which he chimed in on, where you accused me of insulting you a few days before this "hectoring" accusation. Dicklyon (talk) 05:38, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
- I don't recall ever encountering Dicklyon before, so I'm not sure what history you're referring to. It's a bit odd that you're accusing me of Trumpian escalation while throwing muck at me here. Nick-D (talk) 02:02, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
It seems clear to me that what's needed at Talk:Battle of the Mons Pocket#Requested move 2 May 2021 is more hectoring, not less. Look at the crap that Nick's Milhist project buddies are now adding, supporting his position based on false claims, not adding anything to the discussion but wind. Dicklyon (talk) 21:54, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
- "what's needed ... is more hectoring not less" "look at the crap" "not adding anything ... but wind". If that's collegial, good-faith editing then I'm a Dutchman. Dicklyon seems to to be taking every "oppose" as an insult and an opportunity to insult. Just chill, bro, as the Young People say. DuncanHill (talk) 22:02, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
- Do you disagree with my assessment of your arguments there, or you just think I should have found a more polite way to put it? Dicklyon (talk) 23:59, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
- You've already been pointed to WP:BADGER. I'll point you there again ⇒WP:BADGER. DuncanHill (talk) 00:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Dicklyon, I attempted to suggest above, gently, that as an ambassador you should try to be more polite. Let me be clearer: your approach does not encourage the unconvinced to accept your point of view (and yes, I agree that the MOS is on your side). To the extent that you're seeking to convince people to follow the MOS you should adopt an approach that does so. Failing that, you should at least adopt an approach that doesn't have people muttering darkly on ANI about topic bans. Mackensen (talk) 00:39, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think they are the ones to convince. They are not open to facts, guidelines, sources, etc. My comments are really to challenge them to put up or shut up, to make it clear to a closer that they have nothing to contribute to the discussion. Yes, I have a long history of people who want to ignore the MOS muttering to ANI about me. It's disgusting. Why don't they grow up? If an ambassador is what they need, that's probably not going to be me. Dicklyon (talk) 02:38, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Do you disagree with my assessment of your arguments there, or you just think I should have found a more polite way to put it? Dicklyon (talk) 23:59, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
- Look at the crap that Nick's Milhist project buddies are now adding, supporting his position based on false claims Oh so we're Nick's cabal now? Never occurred to me. -Indy beetle (talk) 01:47, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- I don't know about you, but he did canvas the project to get some of the traditional Milhist MOS-ignorers like SnowFire and Thewolfchild and Keith-264 to back him. Thank you for your comments there. We persuaded the closer. Dicklyon (talk) 03:43, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Dicklyon: I'll accept that there are often people at MilHist that share like-minded opinions, but Nick-D's post which you characterized as canvassing was simply Members of this project may want to participate in the requested move discussion at Talk:Battle of the Mons Pocket#Requested move 2 May 2021. This is a very innocuous message and was liable to be read by everyone in that project, even people who didn't necessarily agree with their interpretation such as myself. I more often than not find myself disagreeing with User:Thewolfchild, but unless you can provide diffs which proves Nick was specifically soliciting the assistance of "SnowFire and Thewolfchild and Keith-264" for "traditional Milhist MOS-ignor"ing purposes, you really should do as wolf suggests and apologize. Or at least stop making the accusation. -Indy beetle (talk) 06:13, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- I don't know about you, but he did canvas the project to get some of the traditional Milhist MOS-ignorers like SnowFire and Thewolfchild and Keith-264 to back him. Thank you for your comments there. We persuaded the closer. Dicklyon (talk) 03:43, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Dicklyon's comment on MilHist of "Fortunately, the vacuous and false arguments of Nick-D, Thewolfchild, Keith-264, SnowFire, DuncanHill, and a few others were weighted appropriately by the closer there. When sources use lowercase, the preference of these editors to use caps should not be what determines the outcome. When Nick-D falsely states what sources use caps, and others simply second him even after the error is pointed out, it degrades the credibility of the project." certainly struck me as inappropriate. I know from experience that they can discuss disagreements collegially. Perhaps they need some encouragement to do so more consistently? Gog the Mild (talk) 11:31, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- And Dicklyon didn't even have the courtesy to ping me when he called my arguments "vacuous and false". I'm not a member of the MilHist WP, it's only because of @Gog the Mild: mentioning it above that I saw the comment. DuncanHill (talk) 12:15, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- "They are not open to facts, guidelines, sources, etc." "Why don't they grow up?" "to make it clear to a closer that they have nothing to contribute to the discussion." - these phrases don't look like Dicklyon going with the fourth pillar Wikipedia:Civility, and seem to denigrate RM closers' ability to analyse the arguments presented. GraemeLeggett (talk) 16:08, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah, you can feel that this whole RM/ANI experience pissed me off pretty good. I'll try to get back to my usual calm self now. And I was not trying to "denigrate RM closers' ability to analyse the arguments", but rather to "help RM closers' ability to analyse the arguments" when I pushed back on the opposers and challenged them to say something meaningful. Dicklyon (talk) 17:33, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- You know, I wasn't actually going to say anything originally, as this seemed like pointless drama for the sake of it - Dicklyon has his stridently held opinions, whatever, move on. And hell, despite voting oppose, if I'd closed that RM, I'd have done the same thing as buidhe and close it as "Moved", so it's not like I think Dicklyon's comments or points are illegitimate. However, apparently Dick has found the time to call me out as part of the "traditional Milhist MOS-ignorers", because anyone who votes differently from him is part of an evil plot, after the RM was already closed. This is some severe sore winner behavior. I almost never look at the MILHIST talk page, and found the RM via the usual way of checking WP:RM's list, and had no idea that Nick-D posted it elsewhere. Additionally, you misrepresent my point in the RM (and probably others). I wasn't saying "ignore the MOS." I was questioning the veracity of whether sources really do predominately lower cap "pocket" and think that for obscure topics, we should defer to the experts, which would be the article creator. And, put bluntly, based on your comments on other RMs, you've made clear that you see any sort of non-capitalized use anywhere as reason to remove the capital letters, so it's hard to just take your word for it that Nick-D is "wrong" on the source usage. Nevertheless, you convinced others that the reliable source usage really was mixed, so whatever, I can move on with my life - maybe you're even right, I'm certainly not an expert myself on the specific battle and its terminology in history.As a more general comment, article titles are to some extent arbitrary. Both the Manual of Style and article titling policy are essentially guidelines, suggestions. They aren't irrefutable rules like WP:RS or WP:NPOV. As such, editors can't really be wrong with them. Their opinions are, at worst, different from the prevailing consensus, and consensus can change (the Manual of Style in 2021 is not the same as it was in 2006, and it won't be the same in 2036 - that's healthy and good). As such, people should chill out if somebody is "wrong" in a RM. If they really are out of step with the consensus, than the RM will be closed against them (as arguably happened to Nick-D here!). If the "wrong" side actually succeeds in a well-attended RM, then maybe the consensus was different than expected, but it's no tragedy either way. Dicklyon, if you're reading this, your constant assumption of bad faith in others is frustrating; please accept that not everyone will agree with you every time, and that's okay. You have your opinion, let me have mine. SnowFire (talk) 21:11, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- I hear you justifying that it's OK to ignore the MOS; OK, you can have that opinion. But your comment to trust the article creator, who said 3 of 5 cited sources use caps, even though the actual number was 1 of 5, devalues my own contribution. I wasn't expecting you to necessarily take my word for it if you doubted my creditibility, but if you're not going to look into it you can at least notice that Nick's distraction by titles in the Google book search he linked makes him much less credible. You threw your weight behind a person shown to be spewing falsities. Yeah, like I said, you can feel that I was pissed. Nick opening an AN/I thread in parallel with the RM discussion was a big part of that. Dicklyon (talk) 21:22, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- "Your comment... devalues my own contribution." No! No, it doesn't. We don't round up the "wrong" side of an RFC and mock them for devaluing the "right" side of the RFC with their wrongness. The whole point of these discussions is for editors to offer their authentic, good faith !vote. If it's a weak or unconvincing !vote, the closer gives it little weight. That's it. If there's zero disagreement, there probably wasn't need to open an RFC / RM to begin with. SnowFire (talk) 00:47, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- Why should anyone take the word of someone who spews so much bile? Life's too short. DuncanHill (talk) 21:37, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- I hear you justifying that it's OK to ignore the MOS; OK, you can have that opinion. But your comment to trust the article creator, who said 3 of 5 cited sources use caps, even though the actual number was 1 of 5, devalues my own contribution. I wasn't expecting you to necessarily take my word for it if you doubted my creditibility, but if you're not going to look into it you can at least notice that Nick's distraction by titles in the Google book search he linked makes him much less credible. You threw your weight behind a person shown to be spewing falsities. Yeah, like I said, you can feel that I was pissed. Nick opening an AN/I thread in parallel with the RM discussion was a big part of that. Dicklyon (talk) 21:22, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Raising concerns, at a wikiproject, about why participants in that project keep making arguments that defy our WP:P&G and directly contradict the sourcing, is not any kind of problem. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:52, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Also — Note: An editor has expressed a concern that editors have been canvassed to this discussion. [14]. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:52, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
break
Need to get back on track here. This is not about the RM itself, or which sources said what, this is about Dicklyon's behavior towards others, here, in that now-closed RM, and even now at an otherwise benign notification at milhist about said RM. Just because he doesn't agree with other editors, doesn't give him the right to badger his "opponents" with personal attack after personal attack, all with seeming impunity. Even if he is self-admittedly "pissed off", the MOS does not require such ardent defense that it gives a free pass to violate NPA. This ANI was filed 3 days ago, and as of an hour ago, the battleground mentality of this editor continues as he heaps more insults at others. - wolf 21:52, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Wolf, I have no problem with good-faith pushback on my MOS work. But this should have been a cut-and-dried case, or at least a simpler RM discussion. Go back and look at how it should have finished up after my May 1 comment. Nick could have checked his "After the Battle" source and noticed that there too he was "distracted by titles"; he could have said OK, done. Instead he took it as an insult and withdrew from the discussion in a huff, so I did the move again. He still objected, so we went to RM, where he again posted "evidence" (from a Google Books search) that was again nothing but being distracted by titles. OK, this happens, I get it. So I pushed back on him, and on those who seconded him without looking at evidence or apparently being aware of capitalization guidelines. OK, this happens, I can deal with it. Then he opens an AN/I case to complain about my "behavior". That's going way beyond any normal discourse that the situation required. Then he invites the Milhist project (which already had it on their article alerts for any of them who cared, so was really an "extra" appeal beyond their ordinary), bringing in more long-time MOS-dislikers like you and @Keith-264:. So, it's me that should take shit for being very pissed off over all this? Sure, pile it on. Dicklyon (talk) 22:08, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- So now you're the victim? Have you even read your previous posts here, at the RM, and at MilHist? You abuse all and sundry and then blame your behaviour on them? DuncanHill (talk) 22:13, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, I blame them for most of the drama here and elsewhere, caused by the ridiculous things they wrote. Yes, including you, whose comments I quoted at the project talk page and reaffirmed that I considered them to be "vacuous". And I got to look up both "hectoring" and "vacuous", so it's not all bad. Dicklyon (talk) 22:54, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Agreed. Those who make poor arguments are not in a position to complain they're being mistreated when called on the poor quality of those arguments. We do that 24/7, and that is what is happening here. This is an encyclopedia-building project not a social network, so all this overly emotive "hurt feelings" posturing is sorely misplaced. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:52, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, I blame them for most of the drama here and elsewhere, caused by the ridiculous things they wrote. Yes, including you, whose comments I quoted at the project talk page and reaffirmed that I considered them to be "vacuous". And I got to look up both "hectoring" and "vacuous", so it's not all bad. Dicklyon (talk) 22:54, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- So now you're the victim? Have you even read your previous posts here, at the RM, and at MilHist? You abuse all and sundry and then blame your behaviour on them? DuncanHill (talk) 22:13, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Huh? You don't seem to have read WP:Conflict of interest or straw man, since neither of them seem to be pertinent to this discussion. Happening to agree with Dicklyon's criticisms of some of the MILHIST participants' transparently bogus and anti-source, anti-guideline argumentation, which increasingly borders on disruptive, is not any kind of conflict of interest, it's simply sensible. Dicklyon making observations that others are unhappy about isn't a straw man, even if they disagree with them. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 01:09, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- You seem to have a short memory. Keith-264 (talk) 03:16, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Which is just another non sequitur. Do you have any actually meaningful input into this thread, or are you just going to try to pick more fights? This is hardly a good venue for such an activity. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 03:27, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- You seem to have a short memory. Keith-264 (talk) 03:16, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Personal attack by Thewolfchild
In addition to blatantly canvassing his buddies at MILHIST to come to this ANI [15] (cf. WP:POVRAILROAD), Thewolfchild complains about Dicklyon's alleged "behavior towards others". Let's look at some behavior like Thewolfchild calling him a dick [16] and implying that he is incapable of civility, which is obviously a false accusation, and grossly hypocritical. Probably blockworthy in and of itself: he's clearly trying to make a penis joke out of Dicklyon's name, in a addition to calling him a dick in a jerk sense. The WP:DICK shortcut was deprecated years ago, so Thewolfchild is going out of his way to use it in this case, against community consensus to not use it. I have delivered [17] to Thewolfchild a {{Ds/alert|at}}
, since this kind of behavior is not permissible in discussions about article titles, which are covered by discretionary sanctions. It's not at all like raising issues, as Dicklyon did, about editors making arguments that defy the sources and the WP:P&G; Thewolfchild's behavior is just verbal aggression for its own sake. If Thewolfchild will not learn from this (questionable, given this childish and again hypocritical tit-for-tat and missing-the-point behavior [18]) and will not refrain from similar uncivil behavior in future article-titling discussions, then it should simply go to WP:ANI for swift resolution next time. Thewolfchild would hardly be the first editor topic-banned from such discussions. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:52, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
Personal attacks by SMcCandlish
In a post which can only be described as hypocritical and disingenuous, SMcCandlish (SMc) has left out his own personal attacks; one the false accusation of canvassing (isn't that how all this started?), the other conveniently hidden in an edit summary on his talk page, while reverting an edit I made so that only I would see it. This is right after abusing a DS sanction notice, with the clear intent of having a chilling effect on further posts by me to this ANI. An ANI he now tries to derail with this sudden "stop-looking-at-my-friend-Dicklyon-and-instead-look-at-the-Thewolfchild!" left turn. WP:DICK is a redirect to an active Meta essay on behavior. As SMc's diff shows, it was used as a redirect, piped with the word "nature", as in "the nature of Dicklyon's behavior is addressed by the 'don't be a jerk' essay". There was absolutely no "dick joke" being made at the expense of Dicklyons first name, I think the accusation is crude and obnoxious, and not only does SMc owe me an apology for this blantant lie, but one to Dicklyon as well, as it seems SMc will stop at nothing, including the humiliation of his own friend, with this nonsense. Lastly, this ANI is about Dicklyon's behavior, not mine. If SMc really feels I committed "blockable behavior", then that should merit it's own ANI report, not an attempt-at-distraction subsection of this report, that had the obvious additional benefit of not requiring a notification to my talk page (I wasn't even pinged). If SMc is going to preach the high road, he should also walk it. - wolf 00:58, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- This kind habitual (see previous diff above) "No I'm not! You are!" schoolyard-style parroting/projection tit-for-tat is not constructive, and is simply further strong evidence of Thewolfchild's ingrained battleground behavior and NOTGETTINGIT approach to criticism. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:16, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- And yet, I've actually had very little involvement with this entire matter. A !vote at the RM, then a couple of responses to the badgering that was taking place, and then I disengaged. I posted a comment at the milhist notice, was again badgered, and again was the one to disengage. I only posted 4 brief responses in total, on both pages. Then 2 whole days go by. Then I post a single comment here, at the subsection "(break)", asking that this ANI stay on point, and all of a sudden you are on me, with your wiki-wp:essay-salad, battleground attacks, accusations, bogus sanction notices, (iow: threats), all seemingly with zero self-awareness. You keep posting repeated personal attacks while claiming I'm somehow... disrupting... something...
- All I can say is, this isn't about me and you need to stop making it about you, this particular report is about your friend, Dicklyon. You seem really desperate to derail this report into the typical tl:dr dreck that admins usually don't bother with. Multiple editors have asked that Dicklyon's behavior be reviewed, how about you just let the process run through without the detours. Can you do that? Can you stop the must-have-last-word-posts with every. single. editor. and just let this report run it's course? I think we're done here. - wolf 07:03, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Let's have an RfC and be done with it
This thread seems to be getting to the part of a Monty Python skit where a policeman shows up and stops it because it's getting too silly. Clearly, there are larger issues going on here than this specific editor, or this specific RM.
I'm currently involved in a very long argument with Dicklyon, at Talk:Extremely_Online#Requested_move_27_April_2021 (for the record, I think he's wrong, and that the article's title should be capitalized). Nevertheless, he has made reasonable arguments, and been honorable about it. He's been insistent, which is not the same thing as acting in bad faith. In fact, I wish that everyone I argued with on Wikipedia were this reasonable about it.
One thing I'd like to point out here is that, if you look on his talk page (or even in this thread) you can see that he is far from alone in his opinions about capitalization in titles. Maybe he is right, and maybe he is wrong, but it certainly doesn't seem like he is just some lone yahoo.
Since it doesn't seem like there is a project-wide consensus one way or the other, and everyone seems to think that the PAGs support a different point of view, I think we should have an RfC somewhere (perhaps at WT:MOS) to clarify the scope of MOS:CAPS and WP:NCCAPS. This seems to me like the only way that anyone is going to be satisfied on the issue (least of all an increasingly Mad Online thread at AN/I). jp×g 05:51, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- I guess that means you don't have a long memory of all the RFCs we've had on the MOS, including CAPS. There's a pretty strong consensus behind it, historically, though it's a continuing job to uniformly implement it. Almost all new articles that aren't obviously proper names still get created in title case, as most editors just aren't that familiar with the MOS, or they just like to cap things important to them, like Extremely Online. And yes, I appreciate your civil discourse there, though I disagree with the crux of your argument ("There is a difference between a simple conjunction of two words and a coherent concept being referred to by their conjunction.") since that's not how our MOS says to decide what to capitalize. If that was the criterion, almost every two-word concept that we name an article for would get caps, including Mons Pocket. For example, I just clicked "random article" until I found a two-word title not capped: Prague derby; now, I'm sure many will look at that and say that's the name of a thing, it should be capitalized. But if you look at news, or books, you'll see it's usually not; so we leave it lowercase (this one was not created in title case, but many are, and get moved to lowercase, like Extremely Online will). Dicklyon (talk) 06:03, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'd say the call for a content RfC is outside the scope of this ANI report. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 16:08, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- Outside the scope, yes, but not a bad idea. To the extent that issues continue to crop up with how policy is interpreted, we should have a process to refine those statements of policy to make it clear how it is to apply in those particular situations. BD2412 T 16:52, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- It is a bad idea, because it's the wrong process. Article titles are not determined by RfC, but by RM, which are near-identical processes. That is, WP:RM is RfC, for titles. That is to say, the RfC you want to see happen has already happened. Ergo, you are effectively asking for license to WP:Forum shop to a variant process any time someone doesn't like the outcome of the proper process. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 01:15, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- @HandThatFeeds: That's why I specifically said it should be started
somewhere (perhaps at WT:MOS)
, which is where content disputes (i.e. the majority of this thread, unless I am missing something) belong. jp×g 19:48, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- Outside the scope, yes, but not a bad idea. To the extent that issues continue to crop up with how policy is interpreted, we should have a process to refine those statements of policy to make it clear how it is to apply in those particular situations. BD2412 T 16:52, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- As a side point: There is in fact a site-wide consensus on this sort of matter, named MOS:CAPS. The distilled gist of it (and its first rule) is: if reliable sources do not near-consistently capitalize something then it should not be capitalized on Wikipedia. Various editors dislike this rule and will engage in both logic contortions (and in this case even source denial), and a "never give up, never surrender" approach to get their way (in a vein of "It didn't work this time, so I'll try again later, again and again until I WP:WIN"). A few editors make the same already-rejected arguments in favor of over-capitalization dozens of times at RMs spanning years, and refuse to accept the lower-case results that emerge again and again and again. The fact is that as a WP:P&G matter they are in the wrong about the vast majority of capitalization questions. The seemingly dire urge some people exhibit to over-capitalize things (especially jargonistic terms particular to certain fields/interests, because people steeped in them tend to capitalize them when writing to/for other people steeped in the same topic, versus how general-audience sources – like Wikipedia – are written) is the no. 1 cause of disputation about article titles, and also the no. 1 source of strife about all MoS matters combined. This really needs to wind down, and that's not going to happen if we continue to permit individuals like Thewolfchild, and WP:GANGs of editors at habitually over-capitalizing wikiprojects, get away with aggressive "style warrior" battlegrounding about their pet topics. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:26, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- S, thanks for changing "Many editors" to "A few editors". It really is just a few. The vast majority of Milhist editors are non-problematic (except that maybe they hang back and are afraid to contradict some of their fellows). Some do speak up in favor of following MOS:CAPS on occasion, which is good to see. If I've come across as criticizing the project or its members, I apologize for that. But the project is the place where some of the over-capitalizers find each other and support each other without evidence, sometimes. Dicklyon (talk) 01:25, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, the number of "defy the MoS until I die" sorts can be counted on one to two hands; "Many" got left in accidentally because the original setencence was going to begin something like "Many of these problem can be traced to editors who ...". Anyway, it's entirely appropriate in my view to take concerns to a wikiproject's talk page when they involve what amounts to organized activity on behalf of the wikiproject by some of its more vociferous participants. Wikiprojects – the principle purpose of which is centralizing topical discussion – can't have it both ways. If they want topic-related discussion that makes them happy to be gathered there, they're going to have to accept some critical commentary there as well, when it pertains to more than sole-individual behavior but pertains to group activity, which is the case here. It's always the case (cf. the bird capitalization fiasco, most memorably) that various wikiproject participants are not going along with whatever the "anti-guideline rebellion" is, if one is happening and is centered on a wikiproject. Being critical of the group for entertaining such unconstructive antics is not an individual crticism of much less an attack on every single wikiproject participant. People in wikiprojects also have to remember (and sometimes need to be reminded) that they are not walled gardens, private parties, or separate membership organizations. They are nothing but pages at which editors – any editors – can collaborate, provide information, and raise concerns that are on-topic (or in this case, on-meta-topic). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 03:11, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Dicklyon: Thank you for clarifying your remarks about MilHist. @SMcCandlish: For the record, I closed the RM discussion notice on MilHist talk because it wasn't about "critical commentary" but a mudslinging contest. And I still strongly object to Nick-D's original comment being characterized as CANVASSing. -Indy beetle (talk) 03:37, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for closing that mudslinging. As or the canvassing, I don't know how else to see it. These things get automatically posted to the project's article alerts, and when a member makes an extra special appeal for participation, it brings in mainly those who agree with him, as it did here. Nick-D's notice of 10:05, 4 May 2021 was followed by comments from members Keith-264 and Buckshot06 (and DuncanHill, not a member, who echoed him). They said nothing useful, but added fuel to the fire. Also SnowFire and Thewolfchild seem to be (in my past experience) associated with military stuff, members or not. I don't know who watches that page, but it didn't really need this extra call to action. Thewolfchild perhaps still carries a grudge from when one of his ship names lost its comma after a protracted discussion. Dicklyon (talk) 04:59, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- I agree that closing that thread was a good idea. Has anyone suggested otherwise? What is Indy_beetle complaining about, in other words. Well, beyond the repeated obvious: yeah, Indy_beetle, you've made it clear already that you're upset about the canvassing claim. No need to beleaguer the point. And just being huffy about it is not a convincing argument. While the wording of the notice – delivered only to MILHIST not to any other wikiproject or other venue – was neutral, the intent and effect of it clearly was not, or the same notice would have gone to other venues, at bare mimimum WT:WikiProject Belgium. It was a rallying cry to MILHIST. It not having been the worst kind of canvassing doesn't make it non-canvassing. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:33, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- @SMcCandlish: That wasn't meant as a "complaint". In response to your previous comment involving "appropriate in my view to take concerns to a wikiproject's talk page", I wanted to make it clear I wasn't attempting to shutdown the expressing of concerns by closing the thread. The point about CANVASS re Nick-D and Milhist is because you are discussing the behavior of Milhist. When you are confused about something I say, you can always just ask me for clarification, instead of posing rhetorical questions to the whole discussion group and then condescend me. FTR, posting notices about RfCs, AfDs, etc. in milhist even though they are already listed at project notifications is a very common thing. Also, MilHist is actually active enough to where a notice will at least be read by someone who will go and comment. Speaking for myself, it usually doesn't occur to me post a notice involving a milhist topic in other wikiprojects because most simply aren't very active. -Indy beetle (talk) 20:18, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- MILHIST isn't an entity and doesn't have behavior; it's a page at which any editors may topically collaborate. Much of the problems surrounding wikiprojects is the false feeling of belonging to a private "walled garden" membership organization that makes up its own rules and norms and which exercises control over a category. That is not what wikiprojects are. Anyway, whether a particular kind of low-grade canvassing is common doesn't make it non-canvassing. There's a big difference between notifying all relevant projects and notifying just one stocked to the gills with people who agree with one's "capitalize all this military stuff just because military people like to capitalize it" views. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 11:50, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- @SMcCandlish: That wasn't meant as a "complaint". In response to your previous comment involving "appropriate in my view to take concerns to a wikiproject's talk page", I wanted to make it clear I wasn't attempting to shutdown the expressing of concerns by closing the thread. The point about CANVASS re Nick-D and Milhist is because you are discussing the behavior of Milhist. When you are confused about something I say, you can always just ask me for clarification, instead of posing rhetorical questions to the whole discussion group and then condescend me. FTR, posting notices about RfCs, AfDs, etc. in milhist even though they are already listed at project notifications is a very common thing. Also, MilHist is actually active enough to where a notice will at least be read by someone who will go and comment. Speaking for myself, it usually doesn't occur to me post a notice involving a milhist topic in other wikiprojects because most simply aren't very active. -Indy beetle (talk) 20:18, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Nope, I posted a single comment about what I felt was an unfounded accusation and personal attack. It seems some others agree with me. I didn't initiate this and there is no ulterior motive. The whole comma thing was five years ago. I'd forgotten about it, perhaps you should let it go. - wolf 17:35, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- I agree that closing that thread was a good idea. Has anyone suggested otherwise? What is Indy_beetle complaining about, in other words. Well, beyond the repeated obvious: yeah, Indy_beetle, you've made it clear already that you're upset about the canvassing claim. No need to beleaguer the point. And just being huffy about it is not a convincing argument. While the wording of the notice – delivered only to MILHIST not to any other wikiproject or other venue – was neutral, the intent and effect of it clearly was not, or the same notice would have gone to other venues, at bare mimimum WT:WikiProject Belgium. It was a rallying cry to MILHIST. It not having been the worst kind of canvassing doesn't make it non-canvassing. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:33, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for closing that mudslinging. As or the canvassing, I don't know how else to see it. These things get automatically posted to the project's article alerts, and when a member makes an extra special appeal for participation, it brings in mainly those who agree with him, as it did here. Nick-D's notice of 10:05, 4 May 2021 was followed by comments from members Keith-264 and Buckshot06 (and DuncanHill, not a member, who echoed him). They said nothing useful, but added fuel to the fire. Also SnowFire and Thewolfchild seem to be (in my past experience) associated with military stuff, members or not. I don't know who watches that page, but it didn't really need this extra call to action. Thewolfchild perhaps still carries a grudge from when one of his ship names lost its comma after a protracted discussion. Dicklyon (talk) 04:59, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Dicklyon: Thank you for clarifying your remarks about MilHist. @SMcCandlish: For the record, I closed the RM discussion notice on MilHist talk because it wasn't about "critical commentary" but a mudslinging contest. And I still strongly object to Nick-D's original comment being characterized as CANVASSing. -Indy beetle (talk) 03:37, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, the number of "defy the MoS until I die" sorts can be counted on one to two hands; "Many" got left in accidentally because the original setencence was going to begin something like "Many of these problem can be traced to editors who ...". Anyway, it's entirely appropriate in my view to take concerns to a wikiproject's talk page when they involve what amounts to organized activity on behalf of the wikiproject by some of its more vociferous participants. Wikiprojects – the principle purpose of which is centralizing topical discussion – can't have it both ways. If they want topic-related discussion that makes them happy to be gathered there, they're going to have to accept some critical commentary there as well, when it pertains to more than sole-individual behavior but pertains to group activity, which is the case here. It's always the case (cf. the bird capitalization fiasco, most memorably) that various wikiproject participants are not going along with whatever the "anti-guideline rebellion" is, if one is happening and is centered on a wikiproject. Being critical of the group for entertaining such unconstructive antics is not an individual crticism of much less an attack on every single wikiproject participant. People in wikiprojects also have to remember (and sometimes need to be reminded) that they are not walled gardens, private parties, or separate membership organizations. They are nothing but pages at which editors – any editors – can collaborate, provide information, and raise concerns that are on-topic (or in this case, on-meta-topic). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 03:11, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- "
This really needs to wind down, and that's not going to happen if we continue to permit individuals like Thewolfchild...
". So, specifically naming me and me only? Out of all of this, the ANI, the RM, the MILHIST notice, how do you even remotely justify this? This just equates to another attack, bordering on some bizarre WP:GRUDGE, and if anything is the antithesis of "winding things down". If that is really your intention, then you need to let this go. - wolf 17:51, 12 May 2021 (UTC)- I not-at-all-remotely, but quite clearly, justify it by your behavior standing out as especially crappy, as I've already demonstrated with diffs. I have nothing to let go. I'd already moved on from this conversation to other things. ANI threads many examine the behavior any/all involved parties, and they frequently come to a WP:BOOMERANG conclusion, or to a decision to sanction multiple editors. That either will or will not happen in this case, based on the evidence. If it you escape sanction, this remains evidence that will resurface if your attacky and battlegrounding behavior resumes. That is all. Presenting what amounts to an argument that your behavior should be immune from examination and that ANI participants who choose to examine are doing you a terrible wrong, is not going to have any effect here. That's not how ANI works. Hell, that's not how any of WP works. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 11:54, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- S, thanks for changing "Many editors" to "A few editors". It really is just a few. The vast majority of Milhist editors are non-problematic (except that maybe they hang back and are afraid to contradict some of their fellows). Some do speak up in favor of following MOS:CAPS on occasion, which is good to see. If I've come across as criticizing the project or its members, I apologize for that. But the project is the place where some of the over-capitalizers find each other and support each other without evidence, sometimes. Dicklyon (talk) 01:25, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
A contrarian view
Well, I'll call it a contrarian view here, though I'm not sure I wouldn't be in the majority if a truly site-wide survey could somehow be taken. I've never really understood why the editors within major groups of articles, with demonstrated subject-matter expertise, shouldn't be relied upon to decide the capitalization of those articles. A site-wide MOS that avoids repetitious subject-by-subject or article-by-article or even sentence-by-sentence debates over the same issues is desirable on many usage topics. Capitalization norms, however, vary widely from one topic or profession or area of expertise to another off-wiki. The efforts for MOS-driven uniformity in this area therefore strike me as unattainable, and the emphasis on the importance of uniformity as excessive. There have always been a handful of editors, I will mention no names, who push for lower-casing of article titles even where the editors active in creating and maintaining the articles, and with the greatest expertise in the subject-matters of the article content, all assert and offer ample evidence that upper-casing is the convention in those areas. For more than ten years, forced lowercasing of such titles has demoralized some of these editors, and I wouldn't be surprised if it has weakened some of their good-feelings for and interest in Wikipedia as a whole. With all respect to everyone's good faith here and elsewhere, I'm not convinced that these aggressive forced-capitalization-uniformity efforts are a worthwhile overall contribution to the well-being of the project. Newyorkbrad (talk) 07:02, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- I totally agree. It would be much better for the encyclopedia if those with a super-human interest in fixing six million titles were kept well away from the dwindling community of content builders. Johnuniq (talk) 09:32, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Hey, John, if you're referring to me, note that I've created over a hundred articles and uploaded about a thousand photos, among other things. Besides creating content, I have a focus on style. Hope that's OK, too. I don't think I'll get to looking at millions of articles, but I've done case fixes in thousands at least; maybe tens of thousands. Do let me know if you see any I got wrong. Thanks for your interest. Dicklyon (talk) 04:59, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- And that's a farcical false dichotomy of the same sort as "all those liberals should just get a job". — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 12:15, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Indeed. Forced uniformity tends to have more downsides on a community level than advantages, especially when our house style is at odds with scholarly style. (The German Wikipedia's disgusting (to me) house style is one reason why I don't contribute to mathematics articles there: they follow some "official" recommendations that nobody else uses). —Kusma (t·c) 09:48, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- I agree (per my comment below). jp×g 01:38, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- If you can take a bit more "hectoring", please say what you agree with here, and why; maybe reference what I said to NYB below. I can see how one might legitimately agree with "I've never really understood...", but are you agreeing that "Capitalization norms, however, vary widely from one topic or profession or area of expertise to another off-wiki."? If so, do you have a reason for such belief? Or do you believe that "forced lowercasing of such titles has demoralized some of these editors" is a sensible thing to assert? Is there any evidence of "forced lowercasing" (against consensus in RM discussions)? I remain puzzled. Dicklyon (talk) 01:46, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Dicklyon: Well, I think most people who've participated in these arguments about page titles have said it's unpleasant, or something which paraphrases to that. As for myself, I don't mind it that much, but I do see it as another item in a litany of strange arguments I have to deal with if I write articles on Wikipedia, especially on out-there subjects like Internet culture. I think the majority of lowercase moves (Winograd Schema Challenge → Winograd schema challenge) are correct, but there's a lot of them that seem to rile people up, as we can see here. Regarding consensus, well, I think we can all admit that consensus is to some extent biased by who shows up. If people were to change the spelling of some word in a thousand articles, and start talk page discussions on each page, I think it's quite likely most of the edits would stick, regardless of how right they were, because most people don't like arguing on talk pages. This would also probably be true if an RfC was filed for each one (and advertised on a list of currently open RfCs regarding capitalization). Most people do not care about arguing on Wikipedia, especially not with editors who are both rhetorically skilled and persistent in making their point; I'd say a majority of talk page arguments get resolved by one of the parties getting tired of responding, rather than a real consensus being reached.
- If you'll excuse me getting personal for a minute, this whole ordeal seems strangely trivial compared to other stuff you've done – for example, I've used dozens of your very excellent aerial photos in my articles about islands in the Bay and in the Delta. Many of your articles are sourced well and written well, despite being about very difficult technical concepts. I hate to say that anything is a waste of talent, since I have myself made tens of thousands of edits doing stuff like recent-changes patrol, but I would much rather be collaborating with you for a featured topic on the hydrology of Santa Clara County than arguing with you on AN/I about page capitalization. jp×g 22:10, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I try to be pretty careful, and usually succeed in not riling people up. About 99% of my moves never get a comment; the ones that go to RM are the controversial ones, and all points of few are heard there. The points of view that just say say "I likes my caps because it's important and unique" shouldn't get much weight, but do tend to get seconded, adding to the noise. Often, a real consensus is reached; sometimes they close without consensus. That shouldn't keep us from trying to improve the encyclopedia. Dicklyon (talk) 22:20, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- If you can take a bit more "hectoring", please say what you agree with here, and why; maybe reference what I said to NYB below. I can see how one might legitimately agree with "I've never really understood...", but are you agreeing that "Capitalization norms, however, vary widely from one topic or profession or area of expertise to another off-wiki."? If so, do you have a reason for such belief? Or do you believe that "forced lowercasing of such titles has demoralized some of these editors" is a sensible thing to assert? Is there any evidence of "forced lowercasing" (against consensus in RM discussions)? I remain puzzled. Dicklyon (talk) 01:46, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
NYB, I hear you, and acknowledge that sometimes project members want to have their own project style that deviates from the central consensus as embodied in guidance such as the MOS. But members with that idea have not convinced even the larger project, in discussions where they've tried. And I disagree with your premise that "Capitalization norms, however, vary widely from one topic or profession or area of expertise to another off-wiki." That's not what's happening here. Military historians have varying styles among them, but do not generally capitalize "Mons pocket", or any of the other things that I've worked on moving toward Wikipedia style. A few do, but that's not indicative of anything about the "topic or profession or area of expertise". Rather, what you see is the tendency, in all topic areas, for editors to capitalize what's important to them. Dicklyon (talk) 15:22, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- It doesn't seem to me like there is a "central consensus" in this discussion, or indeed, in most of them, on what constitutes a proper name (which is the subject of most of the contention, if I understand correctly). I think that a guideline (or a guideline section, or a supplement) specifically outlining what a "proper name" is would go a long way toward resolving these; even in the case that consensus wasn't established, having the guideline say "consensus isn't established" would be better than having it say something vague (or nothing at all) which everyone interprets as obviously agreeing with them. jp×g 01:38, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, indeed, a consensus on "what constitutes a proper name" is a tricky one! That's why at MOS:CAPS the consensus is around the more practical criterion "Wikipedia relies on sources to determine what is conventionally capitalized; only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia." Dicklyon (talk) 01:50, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Oh, and the reason for the kerfluffle here is that an experienced expert editor/admin wouldn't admit that the term he wanted to capitalize was capitalized in only a small minority of sources, argued that it was "close to half" (which it was not, as I showed him) and that that should be enough in spite of the guideline, and then came to AN/I because I pushed back on his nonsense and those who jumped in with support with no reason given. This thread should never have been opened. But as long as you want to keep it going, I'll keep explaining and pushing back on nonsense. Dicklyon (talk) 01:56, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- With all due respect to NYB, the line between "expert" and "fanboy" on Wikipedia is not easily discernable, and I don't think it sets a good precedent to allow a small group of people to contravene MOS according to their own style preferences. -Indy beetle (talk) 20:24, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- The current situation is that there is a small group of people willing to spend days arguing about the capitalization of a title. That small group dominates MOS and then has their own consensus to spread irritation throughout the project. The issue is not whether This Is Bad and this is good—it's whether the benefit of this is good outweighs the disruption. There are lots of gnomes and vandal reverters, but there are not many good editors with specialty knowledge and who are willing to invest time maintaining core articles. Perhaps the benefit of all titles being perfect is not worth irritating those who maintain articles. Johnuniq (talk) 00:57, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
It is never going to happen that any given line item in any style guide will please everyone, or that any given person will agree with every line item in any style guide. Otherwise, there would be no need for style guides to exist, since everyone would already be in agreement. They are compromises, by definition. WP implemented a style guide nearly from the start because squabbling half-to-death over style trivia was consuming too much editorial time and goodwill. These silly anti-MoS posturings that people come up with from time to time (which really amount to "I can't get my way on my favorite pet peeve", or NYB's variant here which resolves to "everyone should get their way on their pet peeves" and which of course falls apart the instant two people have conflictig pet peeves, which is why we have MoS, remember?) rely on a fantasy-land scenario in which MoS is causing style disputes and they would go away if we got rid of MoS (or some big chunk of it). In reality, MoS prevents about 95% of style distputes, and WP's daily activity would consist of little but an endless firehose of style disputes being waged page by page if we did not have MoS. We have as many style disputes as we still do only because a) people don't read MoS (which is long, and is really intended as a "gnome" cleanup reference; we expect that people will just write however they like and someone else will normalize it later), and b) certain processes like RM encourge page-at-a-time argument and, frankly, relitigation. This could in part be fixed by having a rule to speedily close any RM the question of which is already answered by the style guide.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 12:15, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think it makes sense to frame the dispute over uppercasing as happening between serious encyclopedia editors and fanboys (or, indeed, fangirls). Let's say, for example, that an article called "Pradley's Kiki" is renamed to "Pradley's kiki": we'd expect a bunch of kiki enthusiasts (or experts, or fanboys) to show up in the resulting argument. This doesn't imply bad faith: it's just unlikely that anyone else would give a damn about these articles at all. We could then come up with a laundry-list of reasons why their arguments were prima facie not credible, which would always be true regardless of the merits of the move: we could accuse them of being out to advocate for Pradley's Kiki at the expense of the rest of the encyclopedia, since they focus most of their attention on that instead of MoS arguments. If there was one of them we could say "well, look, it's just one person engaging on a lone crusade" and if there were a bunch of them we could say "well, look, this is clearly an organized gang of editors". Moreover, I'm not sure why a group of people who focus a lot of editing attention on the narrowly defined subjects of military history, or electrical engineering, or underwater basket-weaving would be discredited by simple virtue of this, but a group of people who focus a lot of their editing attention on the narrowly defined subject of MoS arguing wouldn't. What does seem true to me is that people disagree about an interpretation of MoS, and having the same argument to convince 20 separate groups of people to agree with one interpretation of a vaguely written guideline seems like a waste of time when you could just do an RfC to change it to a more unambiguous wording (and the more correct you are, the more of a good idea this is). jp×g 22:19, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
MoS
After reading up on all the various pages, to see what the kerfuffle's about, and yes, I believe that much of this is well-intended, but really, the thought that keeps coming to mind is: are you all intentionally trying for a listing at Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars?
If the issue causing contention is some policy or guideline, and in good faith you all believe it should be amended, then please start an RfC at the VP. It doesn't matter how longstanding - if it needs to be amended, then it needs to be amended.
Policy and guidelines are only healthy if they are living documents, not stone-engraved aedifaces. - jc37 07:59, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- It's not clear what you're proposing to amend, or in what direction. The MOS is amended continuously based on discussions and RFCs and such, and the capitalization guidance has evolved to have wide consensus support. It is indeed a healthy living document, not a stone tablet. Dicklyon (talk) 16:39, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Also, there's no edit war related to this thread, so going for the "lamest" would be lame. Dicklyon (talk) 01:58, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Indeed. WT:MOS is one of the most heavily watchlisted and active guideline talk pages on the whole system, and counting the subpages like WT:MOSCAPS, WP:MOSNUM, etc., MoS talk probably dwarfs all the others. The fact that (see above) any given editor is almost certain to wish that some line item or other in MoS said something different, there will always be a large number of people with a generalized bone to pick about "something in MoS", but this does not mean MoS as a whole lacks consensus. By way of analogy, nearly everyone I know is mad at "the government" about something (a different something from person to person), but this does not demonstrate any particular problem with the government, nor mean that anarchy is about to be declared because the public has lost faith in having the government exist and generally do what it does. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 12:24, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Speaking of Hectoring (capped in honor of my old bud Hector Levesque, author of "The Winograd Schema Challenge"), I just downcased Winograd schema challenge. Is this "forced"? Is it wrong? I don't think so. I do such things every day, and seldom get any pushback, because it's right, within Wikipedia style, to not cap things that aren't consistently capped in sources. Dicklyon (talk) 02:32, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Good move, per MOS:DOCTCAPS. As an adjuct to Turing test, which we do not capitalize as Turing Test, why would Winograde schema challenge be capitalized? These are not titles of published works, or other sorts of proper noun. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 12:19, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
You both appear to have missed what I was saying. I really have no opion / I don't care about the content debate. What I was saying is that (except the very few legal-related ones), no policy or guideline on Wikipedia should be considered sacrosanct/engraved in stone. If in doubt, start an RfC. If there is (or isn't) consensus, that should easily come through. And doing so is far better than edit warring (regardless of whether that is revert warring, or warring on a talk page). - jc37 04:10, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- Again, nobody is edit warring. And yes, if someone is in doubt that the current guidelines or policies still have consensus, they can always open an RFC. Dicklyon (talk) 04:33, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Move to close
The underlying move discussion concluded, and there's no ongoing interaction to speak of, and nobody is clamoring to sanction anybody, and people have expressed what they think of the MOS, so could some admin just put this out of its misery? Last call for rejoinders to SMcCandlish's rejoinders... Dicklyon (talk) 16:59, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Indefinite block for User:Sportsfanrob
- Sportsfanrob (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This person is clearly not here to contribute, given their behavior. Their edits have largely been disruptive in nature, and this person recently made even more disruptive edits, after he was blocked for 3 months and entered into a period of inactivity on his main account. During this period of "inactivity", he engaged in multiple instances of block evasion, via IPs, which can be seen on his SPI page, and some of which CUs are aware of (including instances that aren't in his SPI archive). As such, I am requesting an indefinite block on their account. This person is a sheer net-negative, and net-negatives do not belong on this site. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 16:51, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Widr, Favonian, ToBeFree, and Spencer: Can someone please take a look at this report? This person just continues to cause more and more problems. Their history of block evasion and IP socking is also a real concern. Thanks. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 16:51, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
- LightandDark2000, I'm afraid you need to give more detail and evidence for an indef block. Please link to previous discussions, diffs of disruption, etc. Fences&Windows 11:35, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Have a look at the numerous complaints/warnings on his talk page. He is *STILL* engaging in the exact same types of disruption. Also have a look at is SPI archives. This person has also evaded his blocks using IPs at least twice (one case isn't listed in the SPI). Oh, and he's editing on 86.0.200.183, his IP, in order to evade scrutiny. This is clear socking. This person is a clear net-negative. And I think that we should show him the door out. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 19:57, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- @The Rambling Man, Destroyeraa, Mattythewhite, TSP, and Lee Vilenski: You've dealt with this guy before and you're more familiar with his behavior than I am. What do you think? This guy hasn't changed at all, and given the messes that he's made again and again (along with the socking), I think he should be indeffed. And also blocked on his IPs for a while (since he WILL sock on his IPs if he is blocked). LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 19:57, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Have a look at the numerous complaints/warnings on his talk page. He is *STILL* engaging in the exact same types of disruption. Also have a look at is SPI archives. This person has also evaded his blocks using IPs at least twice (one case isn't listed in the SPI). Oh, and he's editing on 86.0.200.183, his IP, in order to evade scrutiny. This is clear socking. This person is a clear net-negative. And I think that we should show him the door out. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 19:57, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- LightandDark2000, I'm afraid you need to give more detail and evidence for an indef block. Please link to previous discussions, diffs of disruption, etc. Fences&Windows 11:35, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
I can't think of much useful to add here beyond what's self-evident from the user's talkpage. WP:CIR and this user lacks it, sometimes deliberately and repeatedly making erroneous edits in spite of plenty of warnings. Sometimes enough is enough. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:02, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'd support an block for this user. There are CIR issues which can be shown by the many flounces they have done after receiving warnings, as well as the very clear sockpuppetry by using IPs to edit when under scrutiny. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 21:29, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I've only had the encounters you can see on his talk page; but the pattern is fairly clear. He makes inexplicable, unsourced and unjustified edits; when questioned, he says he is leaving Wikipedia ("Goodbye Everyone who tells me to stop Good Riddance I will log out", or similar). He returns a few days later (with his account or as an IP), and repeats. He has posted comments containing the words "good riddance" to his own talk page at least fourteen times.
- He does edit a lot, and not all the edits are malicious (though most that aren't still seem to be unsourced); but there's a consistent pattern that he has no willingness to even attempt consensus, and reacts to any criticism of his edits by saying he is leaving Wikipedia - then returns a few days later to continue the same behaviour. As this cycle makes it fairly clear he has no plan or willingness to address his behaviour, I can't see any way forward other than a block. (I do expect that he will evade it.) TSP (talk) 23:23, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- @TSP:
... when questioned, he says he is leaving Wikipedia...
Well, even though he did that on his own talk page (see diffs below) this may eventually amount to WP:DISRUPTSIGNS (4) if he persists in relevant article's discussions. I encourage you to provide diffs showing disruptive content editing. - 10:14, October 13, 2020 - «October 2020»
- 10:13, October 13, 2020 - «You have been reported at the Administrator's Noticeboard/Incidents.»
- 07:49, October 3, 2020 - «October 2020»
- 10:31, September 11, 2020 - «September 2020»
- AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 07:52, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- I think the user's talkpage contains sufficient evidence, it doesn't need to be ported over here. If that's not enough, then just allow the disruption to continue. This isn't a bureaucracy, if you can't see the problem clearly enough then, well, meh. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 21:45, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'd agree that providing more evidence of the behaviour would be a waste of time in this case. Either we agree that the general record of disruptive editing, followed by flouncing aren't needed on wikipedia, and give a WP:CIR / WP:NOTHERE block, or we say it's not enough and move on. I would be on the side of a block, but feel I'm a little too involved due to the history to pass this without prejudice. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 08:12, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- I think the user's talkpage contains sufficient evidence, it doesn't need to be ported over here. If that's not enough, then just allow the disruption to continue. This isn't a bureaucracy, if you can't see the problem clearly enough then, well, meh. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 21:45, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- @TSP:
User:SteveBenassi persistent disruptive edits: edit warring, refusing to discuss/engage.
User:SteveBenassi has recently been edit warring and adding disputed material (currently under discussion at WP:RSN) at/to the Eran Elhaik, Khazar hypothesis of Ashkenazi ancestry, Genetic studies on Jews, and Jewish history pages (so far) while ignoring edit summaries and refusing to discuss. Initially, the first page (Eran Elhaik), SteveBenassi added material, from a source which I believed WP:UNDUE and problematic. I tried to explain my reasoning in edit summaries, but he repeatedly reverted me seemingly without engaging with my explanations (after I had asked that he discuss and not edit war and announced that I would start a discussion [[19]]). I then started a Talk discussion pinging him hoping to reach a resolution. He then reverted me again, and though another user engaged me in the Talk page, SteveBenassi never did (the issue then went to be discussed at RSN, with me and several others participating, where it continues). More recently, SteveBenassi has added this disputed material to another page (Khazar hypothesis of Ashkenazi ancestry), without ever having engaged in the discussion regarding it (either on the Eran Elhaik article Talk page or at RSN). I reverted him once there explaining that it was disputed and under discussion and asked him again (as on the other page) to discuss and not edit war. Since then, so far, he has added the same disputed material to two other pages, Genetic studies on Jews and Jewish history (and has added it, along with other somewhat controversial material, to the articles' leads), and also misleadingly marked those additions on both pages as ("m") for "minor". I reverted those edits (once on each page, again with explanations), but , since SteveBenassi has continued to persistently ignore edit summaries and requests/invitations to discuss, he seems likely to continue doing so.
Update: He continues to edit war. He reinstated the edit at the Khazar hypothesis of Ashkenazi ancestry page, linking a recommendation/suggestion User:Austronesier) in the RSN to justify it, despite the fact that the RSN discussio. has not yet been concluded/resolved, and he again misleadingly marked the edit "minor". He was reverted by User:Shrike.
Here are the pages' edit histories for reference:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:History/Eran_Elhaik
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:History/Khazar_hypothesis_of_Ashkenazi_ancestry
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:History/Genetic_studies_on_Jews
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:History/Jewish_history
Any attention is appreciated. Skllagyook (talk) 04:41, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- The user is currently engaged in edit warWikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:SteveBenassi_reported_by_User:Shrike_(Result:_) and have broken WP:3RR also it seems that he here to WP:RGW as per his edit summaries [20] --Shrike (talk) 19:18, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Since another report was filed on the other noticeboard (the edit warring noticeboard linked above) by Shrike, and has been addressed, it seems this report is no longer necessary. Skllagyook (talk) 14:16, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- Respectfully I'm not sure that this report is no longer necessary. This statement in particular [21]
"I intentionally made a scene to draw attention to the Ostrer issue, I knew I would be put in wiki-Jail for a day or two, I thought it was worth it, and it worked, Huldra came to the rescue."
would seem to strongly suggest that this user is not here to build an encyclopedia. Knowingly breaking policy because the punishments are "worth it" seems like textbook tendentious editing.NonReproBlue (talk) 11:28, 12 May 2021 (UTC)- @NonReproBlue: I think you are right (it is still necessary). I had not seen that. That diff you linked is a very troubling statement by SteveBenassi, admitting to tactically edit warring on purpose to push an agenda very much suggests that he is WP:NOTHERE, came to Wikipedia with a decided "battleground mentality", and that his recent semingly appologetic statenent at RSN [[22]] was not accurate nor frankly honest. I think a new perhaps report should likely be filed (since this one has gotten little attention), but I'm not exactly sure where (for now I will modify the title a bit to reflect this new development). I'm not quite sure of what the usual protocol/policy would be here, but I will be starting a new ANI report, that will refer back to this one. Skllagyook (talk) 15:45, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Its clear that User:SteveBenassi is doing POV driven constant edit warring in multiple pages related to the Jewish rigins and should be permanently blocked from editing on this subject.Tritomex (talk) 18:36, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Respectfully I'm not sure that this report is no longer necessary. This statement in particular [21]
- @Tritomex: I respectfully disagree. I haven't used Wikipedia in years. I felt I was being bullied unfairly, I fought back, went to Wiki-Jail for 36 hours. Openly admitted twice in public what I was doing. I apologized. And will not do it again. See bottom of this post, I asked @NonReproBlue to make an edit for me. I have learned from my mistakes. Note: 3 people are bullying me, twisting my comments and lying about me. Thank You SteveBenassi (talk) 18:59, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
See ... search Benassi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Eran_Elhaik
Extended content
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@Austronesier: I added disputed text to Khazar Hypothesis as you suggested https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Khazar_hypothesis_of_Ashkenazi_ancestry&type=revision&diff=1022218010&oldid=1022203273 SteveBenassi (talk) 06:31, 9 May 2021 (UTC) @SteveBenassi: I don't believe the disputed text should be added anywhere untill the issues discussed are resolved. That has not yet ocurred. Skllagyook (talk) 06:48, 9 May 2021 (UTC) @Nishidani: Regarding ... (3)DNA sequences obtained from a variety of Jewish mortuary contexts or even Natufian or other Neolithic/Bronze Age Levantine populations.. .would provide useful information about the nature of genetic diversity that is at the root of the Jewish ethnogenesis narrative. New research does exactly that, and it confirms that Zagoros/Caucasus population during the Bronze Age, and Today, contributed to the Genome in the Levant, indicating Elhaik may be partially correct that Ashkenazi Jews are converts from the north. See Graphical Abstract ... The Genomic History of the Bronze Age Southern Levant https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6 SteveBenassi (talk) 07:37, 9 May 2021 (UTC) @Skllagyook: See Graphical Abstract ... 3 lines from Zagoros/Caucasus at 3 different times including from the Bronze Age to Today. SteveBenassi (talk) 08:13, 9 May 2021 (UTC) If SteveBenassi is to be believed, even one of the study's authors says "we can't be placed in the Elhaik camp or in the mainstream view". It is abundantly clear that there is an accepted mainstream model, and this is a single paper that challenges it. That is fringe. There is no other way to view it. If it proves to be correct, the mainstream consensus will support it, and it then would absolutely merit inclusion. Until then, there is no reason why it should be given such prominence. It is clearly undue weight. NonReproBlue (talk) 17:24, 9 May 2021 (UTC) @Skllagyook: I emailed Aram Yardumian three days ago about the suppression of his article on Wikipedia, he responded "Dear Steve Thanks for this email note and the link to the Eran Elhaik wikipedia discussion page. That was interesting to see. Your question about why our article didn't warrant any news coverage is a good one. First of all, it was just a review article. There was no new data or genetic analysis. Had we undertaken new sample collections or a new kind of analysis -- as Eran Elhaik has done more than once -- I'm sure it would have at least registered a blip on the radar. Review articles often pass unnoticed. Perhaps also: our view of Jewish ethnogenesis is actually somewhat at odds with Elhaik's. You may be aware that I posted an article on BioRxiv back in 2013 that was very critical of his methods (i.e., using Armenians and Georgians as surrogates for Khazars). Since we can't be placed in the Elhaik camp or in the mainstream view, perhaps nobody really knew what to do with us. Perhaps in some ways it's a blessing. There's probably more that could be said, but I'll leave it there for now and ask how you came to be interested in this subject... Regards Aram" SteveBenassi (talk) 14:48, 9 May 2021 (UTC) It's about Yardumian and Schurr's criticism of both, which I felt was undue (and I feel currently has undue prominence), since, like Elhaik, they take an unusual minority view among geneticists (seemingly held by only them), and their paper has not had any mainstream engagement (not yet cited, etc.). Part of my issue was the undue prominence it was given, especially in the initial form added by SteveBenassi, before Nishidani's rewriting of it, which I welcomed/was an improvement, but even after that as well. I don't know that I'd object to a short reference to it in the Eran Elhaik article, or perhaps among the other refs, whose prominence, per WP:WEIGHT, is not out of balance with other references criticizing Elhaik (which includes scientific sources, not only Journalistic). Skllagyook (talk) 10:47, 11 May 2021 (UTC) Your assertions that they are mainstream is belied by the fact that you have repeatedly asserted that they are challenging the mainstream view (and if you trust SteveBenassi, as it seems you do, so does one of the studies author's "Since we can't be placed in the Elhaik camp or in the mainstream view, perhaps nobody really knew what to do with us.") If they are challenging the mainstream view, they cannot represent it. If there is no mainstream view, they cannot challenge it. You say If the two authors here challenge an ideological meme, that is an eminently reasonable point of view, minority (though growing)", then you say that saying they hold a minority view is an "undocumented and repeated assertion". It seems that the real issue might be that you yourself do not agree with the mainstream view, which is fine, but that does not mean that you can add information in such a way as to emphasize what you feel are the shortcomings of that view, out of proportion to what actual mainstream RS say about it. Also, it seems incredibly hypocritical to talk of having secret info about Elhaik's research that you cannot go into depth on that proves both the mainstream and other fringe ideas wrong, and at the same time chastising Skllagyook for "exceeding your remit and asserting a competence, in a highly technical area of science, for which there is no evidence an in asserting your superior judgment". I think your personal feelings on this matter might be clouding your ability to neutrally analyze the body of RS as a whole. NonReproBlue (talk) 12:48, 11 May 2021 (UTC) @Alaexis: Yardumian and Schurr are Reliable Sources for the Eran Elhaik Wikipedia page. I made two edits to the Eran Elhaik page, one on Ostrer "will not defame Jews" comment, and another on The Geography of Jewish Ethnogenesis paper, causing this debate. The point I am trying to make is, in layman's terms, are Jews a race or not a race. Ostrer and his camp say Jews are a race, they are more homogenous than not, they are closely related, and they are mostly the descendants from the Ancient Hebrew in the Levant. Elhaik, Yardumian and Schurr say no, Jews are not a race, they are more heterogenous than not, they are not closely related, they are not mostly the descendants from the Ancient Hebrew in the Levant, but are mostly the descendants of converts to Judaism outside of the the Levant. Elhaik is a Zionist but is not biased in his research, he says his intention was not to disprove a connection to biblical Jews, but rather "to eliminate the racist underpinnings of anti-Semitism in Europe". Elhaik's paper was highly cited, it created a firestorm, many articles were written about it, because it threatens one of the justifications for Israel's right to exist in Palestine, DNA. I think we should modify this to reflect the above "Yardumian and Schurr have criticized both Elhaik's Khazar hypothesis and the mainstream model it challenged, on the grounds that, in their view, both assume the same homeland-diaspora expansion model. As opposed to this, they view Jewish ethnogenesis as one rooted in multiple heterogeneous populations which, often after conversion, coalesced to form modern day Jews. " SteveBenassi (talk) 04:37, 12 May 2021 (UTC) There is no need to panic remove this from articles. Its not the kind of source that will be disqualified for reliability. It may be out of scope for a biography but that discussion should continue at the article talk page."The Khazar hypothesis" saved lives in Vichy France. It should not be taken drastically out of its historical context to smear Elhaik. Separately, the Khazar hypothesis enjoyed a Muslim revival after the founding of the modern state of Israel and the English speaking rose to the bait [35] but it's never been the heart of Zionism. SteveBenassi asks "are Jews a race or not a race". The answer was once a matter of life or death. But the "right to exist in Palestine" is not justified by genetics. The only place I've seen such rubbish claims is the The New York Times which is not a reliable source for science. Why would Jews who were deported to Israel by the nations that were ethnically cleansing them justify their presence in Israel by genetic studies? On Wikipedia we should not be "taking sides" but continuing to improve the weight or NPOV issue by discussion. Spudlace (talk) 09:34, 12 May 2021 (UTC) @Nishidani: (and to any other editors reading) In the diffs you (Nishidani) link above (where I removed the disputed additions), SteveBenassi has added the them to several articles while it was being discussed here instead of waiting for the issue to be resolved, after having been warned about edit warring. That did not seem appropriate. He also added them prominently to article leads, which was also undue given that the the additions represent a minority view. In the case of the Jewish history article there is no other material referencing genetic studies, so adding it seemed especially undue. And he had almost completely refused to engage in any kind of Talk page discussion since the beginning (since his first edits at Eran Elhaik). As I have tried to explain, I do not claim any kind of special knowledge or expertise (I am not an expert), and your accusations - now of "arrogance" - are becoming increasingly personal and uncivil and beginning to enter the territory of personal attacks, which I would like to ask that you not do. In making the point that the new paper is strongly divergent from the mainstream (as we can be aware of the mainstream and majority view, from published research) I merely quoted (and refered to) what much of the research itself says/concludes quite explicitly. I can find no other published research (by population geneticists, the relevant expert community) that takes positions similar to those of Yardumian and Schurr. And you admit above they they are not of the majority view. I merely argued that their position is extraordinary and has not yet had mainstream engagement (e.g. been cited by experts) and this that some caution should be used at this stage. But if the paper is to be used in this or any article, which I concede that it likely will in some capacity, it should at least not be given undue prominence. Skllagyook (talk) 11:08, 12 May 2021 (UTC) @Skllagyook: I am a Newbie, I don't know how to use Wikipedia, I was getting erased by three people unfairly I thought, I fought back, went to Wiki-Jail for 36 hours, made one final post, and this one, I apologize for my inexperience. I am not planning on making any more edits for a while, I got my message out, now I am done, and will watch others and learn. It was quite the experience. Thank You for putting up with me the past few days. SteveBenassi (talk) 12:42, 12 May 2021 (UTC) @SteveBenassi: Your statement that your violations of Wikipedia policies were honest mistakes from ignorance seems to be directly contradicted by your other recent statement on another page (along with the fact that you repeatedly edit warred and refused to engage in Talk after several warnings and explanations. Namely this statement that you wrote on your Talk page 36"I intentionally made a scene to draw attention to the Ostrer issue, I knew I would be put in wiki-Jail for a day or two, I thought it was worth it, and it worked, Huldra came to the rescue.". As User:NonReproBlue (who mentioned it to me at WP:ANI) correctly said, this "would seem to strongly suggest that this user is not here to build an encyclopedia. Knowingly breaking policy because the punishments are "worth it" seems like textbook tendentious editing." Skllagyook (talk) 15:54, 12 May 2021 (UTC) My full disclosure is that I haven't read Elhaik. I was responding to the suggestion proposed above by SteveBenassi that doesn't mention Ashkenazi: "Yardumian and Schurr have criticized both Elhaik's Khazar hypothesis and the mainstream model it challenged, on the grounds that, in their view, both assume the same homeland-diaspora expansion model. As opposed to this, they view Jewish ethnogenesis as one rooted in multiple heterogeneous populations which, often after conversion, coalesced to form modern day Jews." The form of the Khazar theory that is taken seriously by scholars is not a theory of Ashkenazi ancestry. Khazar was a slur in Soviet Russia (basically calling them Turks and blaming them for everything, which we call anti-Semitism), and it was also a theory developed mostly by Karaim scholars about Karaim origins. The related Khazar hypothesis of Ashkenazi ancestry is not supported by any evidence, historical or scientific, and is not taken seriously by any scholars, with the apparent exception of Elhaik. I think we can call this fringe. Yardumian and Schurr are reliable and can be used in other articles. Despite the comments in the email, I don't think this is a new or fringe position. The well-established Rhineland hypothesis implies multiple heterogeneous populations. It remains controversial but it's not fringe. The issue of deleting the Yardumian and Schurr source from multiple articles as non-reliable came up. While there is no consensus here for that, it can still be challenged under other policies like WP:UNDUE. Spudlace (talk) 05:26, 13 May 2021 (UTC) Also ... See ... search Benassi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Eran_Elhaik @SteveBenassi: Hello. Regarding the source you added, there are some issues. I notice you have re-added it twice witout engaging with my explanations in the edit notes. It will try to explain here and hopefully we can discuss it. The source's inclusion here seems somewhat WP:UNDUE given that is proposes a hypothesis that is strongly at odds with mainstream consensus, which is that moat Jewish groups (e.g. the Sephardi, Ashkenazi, and Mizrahi) do share a significant Middle Eastern genetic origin/genetic component with a common origin, and also carry substantial differential admixtures in each from non-Jewish sources, whereas this source "proposes to invert" the traditional model and controversially states that Jewish groups do not have a common origin. In addition, as I mentioned in my edit summary, its proposals have not been engaged with by other notable specialists in the field, and it seems not to have not been cited, despite having been published in 2019. Aspects of WP:REDFLAG seem to apply, particularly the first and fourth. From "Redflag", which explains: "Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources...Warnings (red flags) that should prompt extra caution include: Surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources;" And: "Claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community or that would significantly alter mainstream assumptions—especially in science, medicine, history, politics, and biographies of living and recently dead people." These seem to apply here. And there (and there are not "multiple high-quality sources" but rather one source of unclear/debateable/questionable quality) The authors, of which there are only two, Yardumian and Shurr, seem not to be notable in the field of Jewish population genetics, and their hypothesis here has not been covered by mainstream sources and seems to have no citations despite having been published in 2019. See here: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C33&q=Yardumian+Jewish+ethnogenesis&btnG= The source discusses multiple papers (by much more notable and cited researchers in the area) but interprets several of them in ways that depart significantly from the conclusions of the studies themselves (which are that the aforementioned Jewish groups do share a significant common origin, as well as varrying differential admixtures from non-Jewish host populations). For these reasons, the addition seems to go against WP:WEIGHT and to give WP:UNDUE attention to a minority position advanced in one relatively new work that has not been engaged with by the mainstream of researchers in the field (and thus it is unclear whether it represents a ballanced review). It seems best to wait until there has been some mainstrem engagement with its proposals before adding it, let alone as one representing as an authority, and the most recent one, on the subject in Wikivoice. Skllagyook (talk) 15:03, 7 May 2021 (UTC) @Shrike: ... See ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Ostrer#Criticisms "Ostrer received criticism from Johns Hopkins University post-doc Eran Elhaik, who challenged the validity of Ostrer's past work on the topic of the origin of European Jews.[4] Elhaik has criticized Ostrer's explanations for Jewish demographic history and Ostrer being unwilling to share his data with other researchers, "unless research includes novelty and strength of the proposal, non-overlap with current or planned activities, and non-defamatory nature toward the Jewish people." Pediatrician Catherine DeAngelis said that 'allowing scientists access to data only if their research will not defame Jews is "peculiar"', and added "what he does is set himself up for criticism: Wait a minute. What’s this guy trying to hide?"[5]" Ostrer is a Zionist and biased in his research, Elhaik is a Zionist and is not biased in his research. Why is the quote OK on the Ostrer page but not on the Elhaik page? SteveBenassi (talk) 13:49, 13 May 2021 (UTC) You didn't explained why she deserve more space --Shrike (talk) 13:39, 13 May 2021 (UTC) She deserves the same space on the Elhaik page as the Ostrer page. This is a conflict between two people Elhaik and Ostrer, why tie the hand of one and not the other? SteveBenassi (talk) 13:49, 13 May 2021 (UTC) Ostrer's withholding of data in a science like most others where open access is a basic principle, is extraordinary and certainly does merit the attention it gets in that source. The woman is eminently placed to comment. I think her remark should be paraphrased, since it is too colloquial. This page is notoriously subject to attacks, and consistent attempts to skew reportage against a person who is, as subject of a wikibio, entitled to comprehensively neutral coverage. It is an obligation.Nishidani (talk) 13:53, 13 May 2021 (UTC) I agree that her remark is due to be mentioned, and I also agree that it should be paraphrased (both to avoid ending with a "?" and for due reasons as most of the other quotes are not included in their entirety) which I have attempted to do with my trimming of the quote. If you have a suggestion for a change to an alternative paraphrasing I would be open to modification. But SteveBenassi re-adding his preferred version after admitting he knows that it violates policy is WP:TENDENTIOUS and an ARBPIA violation. NonReproBlue (talk) 17:28, 13 May 2021 (UTC) Also note that the edit by SteveBenassi makes it seem as though the entire thing is a quote by DeAngelis; It is not. The part that is a direct quote from her is "Peculiar" and "what he does is set himself up for criticism: Wait a minute. What’s this guy trying to hide?". The phrasing "allowing scientists access to data only if their research will not defame Jews is" is prose from the article, and should not be included in the quote attributed to her, but paraphrased by our prose as I have done with my edit. NonReproBlue (talk) 17:34, 13 May 2021 (UTC) @NonReproBlue: I am not knowingly violating anything, so don't make accusations. I am new to Wikipedia, all I know is that three of you are bullying me. I also know that Israel has weaponized Wikipedia. What is really going on here? Ostrer's fake research says Jews are a "race", Elhaik, Yardumian, Schurr say Jews are not a "race", which threatens one of the major justifications for Israel's right to exist in Palestine, DNA. So we have the Left vs the Right on Wikipedia. Sad. SteveBenassi (talk) 18:14, 13 May 2021 (UTC) "I intentionally made a scene to draw attention to the Ostrer issue, I knew I would be put in wiki-Jail for a day or two, I thought it was worth it, and it worked" Yes, you absolutely do know. Also your current line of discussion violates ARBPIA sanctions, which you have been notified about on your talk page, that prohibits editors with fewer than 500 edits from making any edits regarding the Israel-Palestine conflict. Your edit summaries, and statements like "Ostrer's fake research says Jews are a "race", Elhaik, Yardumian, Schurr say Jews are not a "race", which threatens one of the major justifications for Israel's right to exist in Palestine, DNA." are clear violations of this prohibition. NonReproBlue (talk) 18:35, 13 May 2021 (UTC) Requiring you to follow policy is not bullying, and "I'm new" (close to 4 years isn't that new, by the way) isn't an excuse for your continued ignorance after being warned repeatedly and blocked.NonReproBlue (talk) 18:38, 13 May 2021 (UTC) @NonReproBlue: You are a bully, I'm fighting back. I am not hiding anything. I have not made an edit on Wikipedia in years. My life does not revolve around Wikipedia like you. Sad. SteveBenassi (talk) 18:44, 13 May 2021 (UTC) Continued personal attacks like that will only reinforce the idea that you have arrived here with a battleground mentality and are not here to build an encyclopedia. If editing on Wikipedia is important to you, I would implore you to spend some time reviewing its policies. NonReproBlue (talk) 18:47, 13 May 2021 (UTC) @NonReproBlue: Its you attacking me, not the other way around. Your a Bully and should be reported. SteveBenassi (talk) 18:50, 13 May 2021 (UTC) You are entitled to feel that way, and if you would like to report me feel free. I am not attacking you, I am explaining to you how the rules work. NonReproBlue (talk) 18:52, 13 May 2021 (UTC) @NonReproBlue: Report yourself, I don't know how. SteveBenassi (talk) 18:58, 13 May 2021 (UTC) If you review Wikipedia policies as I suggested, the information will be there. NonReproBlue (talk) 19:02, 13 May 2021 (UTC) However, before you report me for bullying, I would strongly suggest that you read WP:CRYBULLYING.NonReproBlue (talk) 19:05, 13 May 2021 (UTC) @NonReproBlue: Your Bullying is real, like Crying is real. Report yourself.SteveBenassi (talk) 19:11, 13 May 2021 (UTC) @NonReproBlue: References 30 and 31 are duplicates. Aram Yardumian,Theodore G Schurr, 'The Geography of Jewish Ethnogenesis,' Journal of Anthropological Research Volume 75, Number 2 pp.206–234 Aram Yardumian,Theodore G Schurr, 'The Geography of Jewish Ethnogenesis,' Journal of Anthropological Research Volume 75, Number 2 pp.206–234 SteveBenassi (talk) 21:39, 13 May 2021 (UTC) Either one of you, preferably both, should drop this. Benassi. Israel has a perfect right to exist, and to deny that is very close to sntisemitism. The right to existence as a state is established under international law. Discrediting international law is very much what Israel's behavior in its colonization of the territories is about, so you are mirroring what you criticize. Israel has denied the right to exist of the state of Palestine, of course. Please don't reply to this. It is off-topic but needed as a reminder that, in this area, one cannot pick and choose what suits one in international law. If you subscribe to its principles (and that is a precondition for grasping the shocking treatment of Palestinians) then, automatically, you must affirm Israel's right to exist. I will be restoring Yardumian and Schurr in due course in a slightly different formulation, since no rational policy based arguments has been raised, and their elision looks very much like an attempt to make Elhaik some solitary, freakish, contrafactual POV fiend. Other people share his skepticism of the so-called mainstream view, a view which is hilarious because several of its proponents actually, in their scientific work, explicitly state that their science corroborates the Bible. In any other discipline, such a curious marriage of science and fiction would arouse extreme caution.Nishidani (talk) 21:53, 13 May 2021 (UTC) |
SteveBenassi (talk) 18:59, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Until now we caught atleast 6 verified sockpuppets of Historylover4 in last 8 years trying to do overfload the same artickles with same fringe and unscientific Elhaik theories, on same places [23] which were rejected by almost entire academic world.. Although this is a subject for another noticeboard, I am looking right now if we have another case for SPI. Beside that his editor is unfortunately promising further edit warring, he is politicizing science in his own POV driven intentions, promising that he will "restore" distorted citations from non reliable, unrelated and UNDUE sources. He is not even trying to gain concensus and therefore he should be permantently banned, even before eventual SPI.Tritomex (talk) 19:41, 14 May 2021 (UTC)Tritomex (talk) 20:08, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Tritomex: I don't understand what you are saying. Are you talking about me or someone else being a sockpuppet?
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations
- SteveBenassi (talk) 22:23, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Chicdat's involvement in admin areas
Chicdat has been under a self-imposed ban from editing admin-related areas. Chicdat made a list of the serious mistakes he made and posted it on his talkpage (archive 3). It has become increasingly clear recently that this self-imposed ban is not enough. Please see the discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Kashmorwiki's_sockpuppet_block. He blanket restored a number of edits made by a sockpuppet and continued to argue he was a good-faith editor in edit summaries despite obvious evidence to the contrary. In a move closure today, he moved an article against consensus and inserted his own opinion to make a compromise. While it is clear Chicdat has good intentions, I feel that it is problematic that issues like this keep occurring. EDIT: He has also been causing problems outside of admin areas, with wikiproject templates and redirects (see below).NoahTalk 20:34, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- Merits of whether Chicdat should participate in admin areas aside, Chicdat recently expanded/reiterated their voluntary restriction at User_talk:Chicdat#Voluntary_restriction; that scope would include the Kashmorwiki discussions. The only assertion of concern you've linked since then is the closing of a move request on an article within the 'Tropical cyclones' topic area, which Chicdat is an active editor in. I'm not sure I would class this as an 'administrative discussion', but in any case Chicdat has an active and responsive mentor who they appear to be able to work with, and if you wish to discuss the merits of their participation in closing move requests I think it would've been better to discuss it with MarioJump in the first instance and tweak the restriction accordingly if necessary, rather than bring it to ANI. (I note that they were pinged here, but this ANI was started 10 minutes after without waiting for response.) ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:50, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- The fact remains, mentor or not, that Chicdat continues to make poor decisions in admin areas and other regions that others have to keep cleaning up. There are more issues, such as these: [24] (breaking over 31000 links on a widely used redirect) and [25] - he redirected a project template and broke multiple parameters on talkpages + he left the articles uncategorized for task force level. NoahTalk 22:13, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- Well, redirects are a very separate thing, and I wouldn't class that as an 'admin area'. I gather that you're looking to turn the voluntary restrictions into a community ban, but what scope do you think covers all the areas you're concerned about? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:21, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, it does appear the issues are more widespread than I initially thought. I personally believe this user should not be closing any formal discussions where consensus must be determined, amongst other things. They should not be moving pages or retargetting redirects without consensus. NoahTalk 00:33, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- I don't like to be involved in administrative actions lately as it makes me stressed, but bringing Chicdat to ANI at this point of time is counterproductive as they has not, outside of move discussion brouhaha and this SNOW close (I may have gone too far in here but this is to prevent administrative involvement urges), done anything that can be considered administrative. Chicdat is currently not competent enough for administrative decisions, but as long as I can be active (not busy) and keep an eye on him, they will not disrupt anything and hopefully improve. The worst case scenario for Chicdat is probably a TBAN block which consists of indefinite partial block on Wikipedia:, Wikipedia talk: and even Talk: spaces but not a community ban, which I consider to be a reach honestly. MarioJump83! 03:36, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- I know it. One day I will get indefinitely blocked. The day will come. The block button will be pressed. There will be nothing I can do. The editors around me have repeatedly tried to delay that day, and they have largely been successful, but the day is quickly coming. I will end up here again... and again, and again, and again. One day, the majority of editors will vote to block me. I get onto Wikipedia. I begin an editing session. And I get that big ugly message saying I am unable to edit Wikipedia. So to further delay the fateful day, I have just added another thing to my ban. Also: Please don't partially block me from Wikipedia:, Wikipedia talk:, and Talk:. Then I would have no venue for discussion between editors. 🐔 Chicdat Bawk to me! 10:02, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Chicdat: Are you aware of WP:TPO? You may want to re-think this. DeCausa (talk) 11:21, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Undone. 🐔 Chicdat Bawk to me! 13:06, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- I personally think that this is starting to become a bit of a witchhunt, yes @Chicdat: made a mistake by closing the discussion on Bawbag and implementing a supervote. However, I don't think it rises to the level of shipping him off to WP:ANI and nor should every time he be shipped here every time he makes a major mistake. I have set up a challenge on WP:Weather specifically with him and others in mind and would like to see how he does with it.Jason Rees (talk) 15:35, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Undone. 🐔 Chicdat Bawk to me! 13:06, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Chicdat, if you are seriously concerned that continuing to edit will currently lead to a block, then a possible solution can be stopping to edit for a while, until the situation has changed. Whatever it is. For many editors, their current age is such a temporary problem. If it's more permanent, this approach doesn't work. The only person who can assess and decide in this situation is you, yourself. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 16:57, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- @ToBeFree: Many editors (particularly the ones I have been in disputes with) have said that I am
too young to edit Wikipedia.
I disagree. Why, a baby could edit Wikipedia if he or she was constructive here! And in response to the other part of your comment, I just – feel unable to not edit Wikipedia. I think thousands of other editors think so too. So instead I will follow other editors' suggestions, add Noah's list to my restrictions, and hopefully avoid getting blocked. 🐔 Chicdat Bawk to me! 10:03, 13 May 2021 (UTC)- Chicdat, I have no idea how old you are, and I don't want to know. I'd just like to note that if multiple editors have expressed "too young" concerns and if you are actually young, then they may be right. And yes, a baby could edit Wikipedia if they were constructive here. The probability of such constructiveness is correlated with age, and a lack of constructiveness combined with a low age simply "fits the image". So I uphold my advice: Consider stopping to run against a wall. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 11:45, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Those colons! I will be very, very, very cautious in the Wikipedia: namespace from now on. I will limit my volume of bold edits. I will listen to other editors. I will remain in good standing. I will respect my ban. I will continue to edit Wikipedia. 🐔 Chicdat Bawk to me! 11:49, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Chicdat, I have no idea how old you are, and I don't want to know. I'd just like to note that if multiple editors have expressed "too young" concerns and if you are actually young, then they may be right. And yes, a baby could edit Wikipedia if they were constructive here. The probability of such constructiveness is correlated with age, and a lack of constructiveness combined with a low age simply "fits the image". So I uphold my advice: Consider stopping to run against a wall. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 11:45, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- @ToBeFree: Many editors (particularly the ones I have been in disputes with) have said that I am
- @Chicdat: Are you aware of WP:TPO? You may want to re-think this. DeCausa (talk) 11:21, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- I know it. One day I will get indefinitely blocked. The day will come. The block button will be pressed. There will be nothing I can do. The editors around me have repeatedly tried to delay that day, and they have largely been successful, but the day is quickly coming. I will end up here again... and again, and again, and again. One day, the majority of editors will vote to block me. I get onto Wikipedia. I begin an editing session. And I get that big ugly message saying I am unable to edit Wikipedia. So to further delay the fateful day, I have just added another thing to my ban. Also: Please don't partially block me from Wikipedia:, Wikipedia talk:, and Talk:. Then I would have no venue for discussion between editors. 🐔 Chicdat Bawk to me! 10:02, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Well, redirects are a very separate thing, and I wouldn't class that as an 'admin area'. I gather that you're looking to turn the voluntary restrictions into a community ban, but what scope do you think covers all the areas you're concerned about? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:21, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- The fact remains, mentor or not, that Chicdat continues to make poor decisions in admin areas and other regions that others have to keep cleaning up. There are more issues, such as these: [24] (breaking over 31000 links on a widely used redirect) and [25] - he redirected a project template and broke multiple parameters on talkpages + he left the articles uncategorized for task force level. NoahTalk 22:13, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
I personally think it would be helpful to Chicdat for the purpose of keeping himself out of further trouble, to teach him so he learns, and to prevent future harm to WP to institute some kind of restrictions (either formal or informal in witness of everyone here):
- Chicdat should test any edits to template space pages in test cases to see if any problems occur prior to implementing them.
- Chicdat should not move any mainspace pages and their talk and subpages without consensus.
- Chicdat should not retarget redirects without consensus.
- Chicdat should not determine the consensus in any discussions for a period of 3 months while he works with his mentor to go over how to determine consensus and practices doing so.
- Chicdat should not be involved with sockpuppetry work, except in the case of reverting vandalism caused by sockpuppets. NoahTalk 16:44, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Comment. These sound like reasonable restrictions for anyone who already recognises that they are still learning. There are plenty of other constructive editing tasks that User:Chicdat is welcome to carry out. Deb (talk) 10:59, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Correct. For instance, nobody has ever given me a warning for adding short descriptions, so I still use Shortdesc helper. 🐔 Chicdat Bawk to me! 11:00, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Comment. These sound like reasonable restrictions for anyone who already recognises that they are still learning. There are plenty of other constructive editing tasks that User:Chicdat is welcome to carry out. Deb (talk) 10:59, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- These seem very reasonable, and I would support them as an informal restriction that can be lifted when Chicdat's mentor feels like he no longer needs them. ( I don't think we are quite to the point of an appeal needing to go to AN.) Jackattack1597 (talk) 23:47, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Moved from AN. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:47, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Hello there, this issue involves more than one problem so I've brought it up here. This mainly concerns User:Gianluigi02 and User:Selfstudier who have decided themselves what must be correct, but other users are causing disruption as well. In many conflicts, we have claims from two sides about death tolls. But here in this case neither side is contradicting each other. Of course that doesn't mean both are true.
But Gianluigi is only taking his own conjectures made in conjunction with the Palestinian statements which are being reported as true. For example when earlier Palestinian health officials stated that 30 Palestinians had been killed [26]. But they never claimed they were all civilians. Gianluigi02 however inserted his own claims that 26 civilians had been killed [27], basing his claim Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad deaths of 1 commander [28] and 3 commanders respectively so far [29]
One thing that should be noted that the Palestinian groups have only confirmed prominent deaths ie commanders, they haven't confirmed how many militants or their members have been killed in total. But despite this Gianluigi02 continues to regard that only 4 (now 5 after Israel said it killed another commander) were killed. [30]
Despite me explaining it to him many times that he's solely relying on Palestinian claims of casualties himself, he claimed again only 4 militants died and without proof claimed identity of 15 dead people (excluding 5 militants, 10 children and a woman confirmed dead) is unknown so far and they are suspected to be civilians [31]. I couldn't find any source for his claim, and it's different than his earlier claim of 26 civilians being dead.
I later removed the commanders who have been confirmed as dead from the overall toll so people did not confuse it. [32] Then I added that Israel claimed it had killed 18 militants [33]
But Gianluigi took to reverting me and baselessly claimed that the Israeli source I used (Times of Israel) was false, even though it said it was claim of Israel that 18 militants were killed [34]. Without presenting one thing to contradict it. He also claimed that the death toll of Gazans provided by Palestinian sources is also confirmed by Israelis [35]. I have however not found the IDF or Israeli government saying so.
There have been other user repeating similar claims against Israeli sources like User:Selfstudier, to whom I pointed out that the number of dead Gazans was only based on Palestinian/Gazan health ministry claims and not independent claims [36]. In response he said he has nothing to add beyond what he said [37].
By that I assume I he meant that I should add contradictory claims [38] or the death toll being from the Palestinian health ministry [39]. Thing is I pointed out earlier to him that Palestinians didn't contradict Israel's toll [40] (neither Israel has contradicted Palestinians).
Also I had pointed out that regarding one side's claims as true and the others as false is incorrect way to do things, especially since Gianluigi is himself deciding how many civilians died using only the number of prominent militant commanders confirmed to be killed [41].
Later he got in a long-winded argument with others about Israeli sources like Times of Israel and Jerusalem Post being false [42]. Per his claim Times of Israel was making false reports and did not attribute the number of dead Palestinian militants to IsGov. In addition, he says Jerusalem Post was paid by IsGov to smear BDS [43]. This was said by him after I pointed out to another using disputing the number of Israeli injuries, that you have to prove a website deliberately reporting false news to prove it's unreliable, not it just being wrong sometimes [44].
Selfstudier used a +972 Magazine article claiming that Israeli government had funded Jerusalem Post's supplement against BDS discreetly, which it claims was revealed a freedom of information request. However as AlexEng pointed out the relationship between JPost's supplement and the State of Israel Ministry of Strategic Affairs and Public Diplomacy was never hidden [45]. Even in the supplement you can see the logo of the ministry on the last page and the ministry's director-general delivering its introduction [46]. Regardless of that it isn't the only independent newspaper to have a government-funded report once-in-a-while.
Even if we disregard JPost as unreliable, Selfstudier still ridiculously claimed that Times of Israel had made a false claim and didn't attribute the number of dead Palestinian militants in its blog to Israeli government and it had been removed from the article by an editor (which was Gianluigi02 of course) multiple times, in order to discredit the website: [47], [48], [49], [50].
However the source article he refers to quite clearly does attribute the number of dead militants to Israeli government source: Israel says it has killed at least 18 terrorists.
. Me and AlexEng pointed this out clearly to him even with the direct statement [51], [52].
After this however he ridiculously started claiming that just it didn't attribute it because it said "Israel" and since the editor (Dianluigi) who removed it said it was false he agrees with him [53]. After I pointed out that one editor calling it false is not evidence and saying "Israel says it has killed at least 18 terrorists" is attribution just like "India said x number of people died", he took to calling IDF as disinformatory and stated he believes it is likely ToI's source, but it didn't attribute them directly [54]. Thing is no one said they have to specify directly who was it from. In addition IDF as we know is the military arm of the IsGov, and he was also talking about there being no attribution to IsGov.
Now regardless of what you think of IDF's reliability, Palestinian sources can't be blindly relied blindly on either. I did say this clearly earlier how GianLuigi02 is using them openly as factual and was using his own conjecture as to what they meant, but Selfstudier has no issue with it [55] [56].
I'm not going to describe my whole talk with him since it's long but you can see it for yourself on the talk page.
I believe these two users need to be temporarily banned from the topic or have it at least told to him not to be biased towards any source, plus not decide on his own what should be correct. The others there probably need a warning too. The appropriate way to be regard either both as reliable or none as reliable and label which claim is Palestinian or Israeli.
While I don't like to point fingers, it seems clear that there's anti-Israel bias going on, where Palestinian claims are believed and Israeli claims aren't. These two actually aren't the only ones so I think the article needs to be monitored. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 11:56, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- @LéKashmiriSocialiste: please note that as noted at the top of this page you must notify involved users if you start a discussion about them. I have notified Gianluigi02 and Selfstudier of this discussion. -- Asartea Talk | Contribs 12:11, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- I forgot about the notifying part. Sorry it slipped my mind and I was busy in something else. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 12:27, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- (1) I put a Arab-Israeli DS notice on LKS's talk page; the other mentioned editors have already been notified.
- (2) LKS has a very interesting talk page, worth reading.
- (3) This appears to be primarily a content dispute with a disagreement about the reliability of sources.
- (4) The question of source reliability should be handled at the WP:Reliable sources noticeboard; off hand, I can't see the editors there deciding that The Times of Israel, Jerusalem Post or Al Jazeera is unreliable.
- (5) Otherwise, the right place for settling the content dispute is on the article talk page, not here.
- (6) It seems unlikely that an admin telling a possibly biased editor "Don't be biased" is going to have any positive effect, and also unlikely that anyone is going to be topic banned on the basis of this report, even if everything in it is perfectly accurate and not in itself biased.
- Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:19, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- (7) This should be at ANI, not here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:46, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- (8) So I moved it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:49, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- (7) This should be at ANI, not here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:46, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
I never said that the Times of Israel is spreading fake news. I said however that the IDF is claiming the death of 15 Hamas and PIJ members without proving it. There are no proofs of that. And no, I'm not saying that is false, it can be true that 15 Hamas members are killed by the strikes. However we need proofs, not claims without evidences. For this reason, I added just the death toll (which is at 53 dead now), without specifying how many were civilians and how many were militants. Or at least, now we are specifying those confirmed to be civilians (the 14 children, the three women, the husband of one of the women, five farmers and other civilians killed in cars) and those confirmed to be militants (3 PIJ and 2 Hamas commanders). The identity of the rest of the victims is unknown so far. So we should just update the death toll without specifying the identity until they are proven. Gianluigi02 (talk) 13:14, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Another argument for waiting on events to actually have time to be investigated and reviewed before rushing a half-baked article into main space. Tiderolls 13:49, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Actually it's not so simple Tide. Let me quote exactly what you said Gianluigi when you removed that Times of Israel source: "Also, I'm removing that false Israeli source". Anyone can see exactly what you meant. Whether the identity of others is known or not, I put 18 militants dead specifically as Israeli claim [57]. This presents it in a neutral fashion and claims by both sides are allowed, so I don't get why you removed it.
- This is not content dispute as you clearly have a problem with Israeli claims. Your number of dead (53) is directly sourced from Gaza health ministry [58]:
Gaza’s ministry of health said the overall death toll since the latest offensive began stood at 53, including 14 children. More than 300 others have been wounded.
- This is not content dispute as you clearly have a problem with Israeli claims. Your number of dead (53) is directly sourced from Gaza health ministry [58]:
- Admins please notice this guy is point blank breaking sanctions by reverting to previous versions. He's also cherry-picking which side to use, siding with Gazans over Israelis when we should use both but cautiously. I hope you can punish him now. He has clearly violated the sanctions and rules despite being aware. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 14:09, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- But anyway let's believe your claim that you meant IDF and not Times of Israel. Why does IDF need to prove how many it killed? And how exactly will it prove? Do you expect it to release a list of names? Also why is that you're trusting Gaza ministry of health but not the IDF? You yourself said that the identities of many dead Gazans among the 53 is not known. They haven't clarified who they are. But how do you know they are speaking the truth when they haven't provided a list of everyone's names? This is clear open bias. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 14:16, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- I do not understand what you aim to achieve with this, you are arguing about a source, so this seems like a discussion for WP:RSN. Perhaps make a post there and consensus will agree on whether the sources are reliable or not? Or are you arguing for sanctions because of a content dispute? CPCEnjoyer (talk) 18:11, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- I do not think any of the sources are unreliable. I'm ready to use all sides but mark them as Israeli or Palestine in case they are Israeli or Palestinian government claims. Gianluigi however regards Palestinian claims as definitely true. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 06:17, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- I do not understand what you aim to achieve with this, you are arguing about a source, so this seems like a discussion for WP:RSN. Perhaps make a post there and consensus will agree on whether the sources are reliable or not? Or are you arguing for sanctions because of a content dispute? CPCEnjoyer (talk) 18:11, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- But anyway let's believe your claim that you meant IDF and not Times of Israel. Why does IDF need to prove how many it killed? And how exactly will it prove? Do you expect it to release a list of names? Also why is that you're trusting Gaza ministry of health but not the IDF? You yourself said that the identities of many dead Gazans among the 53 is not known. They haven't clarified who they are. But how do you know they are speaking the truth when they haven't provided a list of everyone's names? This is clear open bias. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 14:16, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Could something please be done about Gianluigi02? He is now attacking other editors by calling their edits "false informations" [67], and has now (once again) removed neutral sources (that were discussed on the article's talk page [68]) in order to replace them with Al Jazeera [69], without giving any valid reason to do so. JBchrch (talk) 00:51, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Gianluigi is breaking rules, attacking edits of others, cherry-picking his own sources, while engaging in a clear edit-war. Can something be done or are we be to held hostage to what he wants? LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 06:17, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- What are you talking about? That user removed the updated death toll of 65, which was confirmed by multiple sources. He said that between 30 and 50 people died, which was not true. Gianluigi02 (talk) , 14 May 2021
- That's not what your edit had to do with [70]. It was about the number of children killed, changing it from 14 to 16. Another statement you changed it from "35 to 65" to 67 Palestinians killed, that statement wasn't added by JBchrch. You're referring to a previous edit [71] where you changed the Palestinian death to 67, after JBchrch changed death toll from 65 to 53 and of children from 16 to 14, removed Al Jazeera as source [72] because he thinks it's unreliable?
- However, he did clearly cite neutral sources for his edit. This 53 death toll was reported by other sources too [73] and dead children as 14 [74]. I'm sure you were aware that was the death toll at one point. A few other sources did refer to the death toll as 65 and dead childdren to 16 [75], but it's much more likely he missed it and didn't check up the latest news. So you trying to claim you called a person who at most committed a mistake or disputing the number of dead children (which it was actually about) as "false" is a bad-faith behaviour. Why are you attacking people and their edits? LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 09:25, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- What are you talking about? That user removed the updated death toll of 65, which was confirmed by multiple sources. He said that between 30 and 50 people died, which was not true. Gianluigi02 (talk) , 14 May 2021
Is this Wikipedia not extremely suspect? The content's framing and the mono-centric editorial. — Preceding unsigned comment added by El-Baba (talk • contribs) 13:07, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yes it does come off as slanted towards one side given how Israeli casualties are far more focused upon, even if that may not be the intention. It would need re-editing plus more sourcing for its claims. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 14:35, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
Uninvolved non-admin LéKashmiriSocialiste, first, please be more concise. Second, please be more precise. Instead of long and vague arguments, post diffs showing policy violations. In the absence of such different, I doubt any admin will want to take any action. Jeppiz (talk) 14:50, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Jeppiz I've tried to be as concise while explaining properly. Second I did show diffs, many of them. So I don't know what you're referring to. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 17:51, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, at that time it was a false information. At that time, 67 Palestinians were killed, and it was confirmed by multiple sources which I added. Those sources were removed by users who then added a lower death toll, which was not true at that time. So, I'm not in the wrong position. I was adding the correct toll with sources. Then, you are saying that I'm saying that other users are intentionally spreading false news. I never said that, I just said that those informations were false, meaning that they were wrong.Then you are saying that those users didn't saw the updated sources. However I added them and were removed. Gianluigi02 (talk) , 14 May 2021
- Out-of-date information is not "false" information because it was made using reliable sources. You used something that is often seen as an unreliable source in the context of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict (Al Jazeera). And that said false is incendiary since it can imply deceivement. Btw you don't know how many Palestinians were killed because it could be higher than what was reported. So if you fail to use reliable sources, that's on you. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 17:51, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, at that time it was a false information. At that time, 67 Palestinians were killed, and it was confirmed by multiple sources which I added. Those sources were removed by users who then added a lower death toll, which was not true at that time. So, I'm not in the wrong position. I was adding the correct toll with sources. Then, you are saying that I'm saying that other users are intentionally spreading false news. I never said that, I just said that those informations were false, meaning that they were wrong.Then you are saying that those users didn't saw the updated sources. However I added them and were removed. Gianluigi02 (talk) , 14 May 2021
Comment I don't want to cause offense but I suggest that this be hashed out on the talk page in the usual way. All of the above has been overtaken by events.Selfstudier (talk) 18:16, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- I tried hashing it out with you, but the moment you started misleading was when I shouldn't have proceeded more. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 21:43, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- You mentioned my name here in your original post. I am still waiting to hear details of any legitimate complaint. Do you have one? If so, please provide appropriate diffs. Selfstudier (talk) 12:38, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I think repeatedly being biased against Israeli sources, misleading and claiming a source isn't attributing a claim to IsGov when it is, counts as one. Don't you think? LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 08:55, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- So no diffs?Selfstudier (talk) 09:45, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Look at my first comment that started this, you'll find the diffs there: "Even if we disregard JPost as unreliable, Selfstudier still ridiculously claimed that Times of Israel had made a false claim and didn't attribute the number of dead Palestinian militants in its blog to Israeli government and it had been removed from the article by an editor (which was Gianluigi02 of course) multiple times, in order to discredit the website: [76], [77], [78], [79]." LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 13:48, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Those diffs are from the talk page. I did not claim that ToI had made a false claim, what I said was that an edit had been made by someone else claiming that ToI had made a false claim. You are insisting that you have a legitimate complaint against me, I dispute that you do. So please file a separate complaint at whatever board is appropriate for the complaint you want to make and I will respond to that.Selfstudier (talk) 14:09, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yes because I was talking about your talk page behaviour only. But given how much you've misled on it, it's why you deserve to be banned from the article too since you cannot be trusted to maintain neutrality when you try to mislead people so much. You explicitly did claim ToI made a false claim:
The false claim (ToI blog for militants killed)
. Not only that, you did you say you trust Gianluigi when he says it made a false claim you also ridiculously claimed it did not attribute its death toll IsGov. Then when I showed it did, you started claiming saying Israel is not n attribution. Want me to continue? LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 12:31, 16 May 2021 (UTC)- Please file a complaint as I asked, there is no substance to your statements.Selfstudier (talk) 13:40, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yes because I was talking about your talk page behaviour only. But given how much you've misled on it, it's why you deserve to be banned from the article too since you cannot be trusted to maintain neutrality when you try to mislead people so much. You explicitly did claim ToI made a false claim:
- Those diffs are from the talk page. I did not claim that ToI had made a false claim, what I said was that an edit had been made by someone else claiming that ToI had made a false claim. You are insisting that you have a legitimate complaint against me, I dispute that you do. So please file a separate complaint at whatever board is appropriate for the complaint you want to make and I will respond to that.Selfstudier (talk) 14:09, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Look at my first comment that started this, you'll find the diffs there: "Even if we disregard JPost as unreliable, Selfstudier still ridiculously claimed that Times of Israel had made a false claim and didn't attribute the number of dead Palestinian militants in its blog to Israeli government and it had been removed from the article by an editor (which was Gianluigi02 of course) multiple times, in order to discredit the website: [76], [77], [78], [79]." LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 13:48, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- So no diffs?Selfstudier (talk) 09:45, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I think repeatedly being biased against Israeli sources, misleading and claiming a source isn't attributing a claim to IsGov when it is, counts as one. Don't you think? LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 08:55, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- You mentioned my name here in your original post. I am still waiting to hear details of any legitimate complaint. Do you have one? If so, please provide appropriate diffs. Selfstudier (talk) 12:38, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I don't know what are you talking about. The number of Palestinians can be higher, or maybe not. I add what is reported by realiable sources, which I added, not only with Al Jazeera source (which is a realiable source despite you are saying it's not), but I added BBC sources too. Then, when I said 'false, I didn't mean that the source were, but that number was not the real numbee at THAT time. The real death toll was of 65 dead and I added it with multiple sources which were removed for no reason. Gianluigi02 (talk) , 14 May 2021
- Not reliable sources. You are reporting what is said by Gaza ministry of health. So you don't know what is correct and yet you claim the other is "false" because they merely read out-of-date information. You know the reason your edit was removed, Al Jazeera is not a reliable source for JBChrch [80]. What you're doing is bad faith. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 21:43, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
I'm tired of repeating the same things over and over. You accused me of imposing my opinion, but you are the one who's imposing. You say that al jazeera is not a realiable source, while it is realiable. You can say that but I can't say that Times of Israel is not realiable. So what are you talking about exactly? And again, I also added the BBC source. That is not a realiable source too? You are the one who is saying what is realiable and what is not. Then, you are saying that the Gaza ministry of health is not a realiable source. He is the ministry of health of his country, who has those informations also by hospitals and doctors, so is a realiable source. While when I said that the IDF was not reporting any evidence about the toll of the militants killed (which doesen't mean that they were lying or that it was false, but that there were no confirmed evidences), you accused me. And I am the one who is imposing? Am I taking position? Probably, but you are taking position too. I wasted too much time repeating this over and over. Gianluigi02 (talk)
- It is you who started this whole thing by dismissing Israel's claims as unreliable and Times of Israel as unreliable. But you are okay with Gazan health ministry's statements as a "fact" even though they can inflate death toll (yes it's not impossible) and it's not necessary they counted every death. You assume that the health ministry is reliable because it has access to its hospitals. How do you know that or know that they can't dress it up? Do you really think hospitals are just calling up with updates of dead or officials are running around in them to record them accurately? Because I've seen many countries fail to count the death toll properly, even the United States. Heck even in the COVID situation. Hamas has also indulged in propaganda before. There's a reason we avoid taking claims of both sides as true. Why would Israel provide you evidence? Did you check whether Gazan health ministry has evidence? No you assumed it is saying the truth. Simple as that. I didn't say though it's unreliable. You are biased, not me. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 06:58, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
So, to you Gaza's health minister can inflate the death toll...but the IDF and Israel's government can't inflate the number of militants killed? Can they or not? Answer this. Probably you are taking a pro-Israel position, like if Israel is saying all right things and Palestine is lying. This is what are you saying. I report confirmed facts from both sides, not opinions, but facts. Also, the past day you said that I "don't know how many Palestinians were killed because it could be higher than what was reported", now you are saying that it can be inflate. Decide. Gianluigi02 (talk), 15 May 2021
- Haven't you ever heard of propaganda and victimization? Yes they can. I never said IDF and Israel might not be lying if you ever cared to notice. Yes now Hamas and PIJ had confirmed that 20 militants died, but earlier they didn't give any numbers. Despite that you started making up your own militant casualty numbers, despite knowing yourself they had only confirmed deaths of their commanders and not every militant. Articles don't operate by your assumptions and demabds of evidence. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 13:01, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Children are dying, civilians are dying in the streets, and you are calling it propaganda and victimization? Are you serious? So now if we follow this thing that you said, we should not belive anything and anyone as everything can be 'inflate', which doesen't make any sense. Then nobody is saying that the Gaza's toll is the right one. This is the confirmed number of victims, it can be higher probably. However it is the confirmed one so far, and I added it. It is our job on Wikipedia. I call to a stop on this discussion as is sensless and we are discussing here from days of a thing that is closed. We are just wasting time. I have my positions, you have yours, and nobody will change his own ideas probably. Gianluigi02 (talk), 15 May 2021
- You see there that's the evidence of your bias, you are editing with sympathy to Palestinians. Me on the other hand I'm unattached in editing and want both sides to live in peace. Btw it is known all the dead are not caught and the Gazan health ministry has been suspected as being unreliable about the civilian death toll even by international news agencies [81], [82]. Also get this, many of the dead are actually young men, they are disproportionately more in comparison to their population percentage. Also the ministry does not differentiate militants and civilians. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 13:44, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- It's perfectly alright for Wikipedia editors to be partisan, it's also alright to use biased sources, so I'm not sure why you are making it look like a problem when an editor feels more sympathy for one side of the conflict. Only, we need to abide by verifiability and balance, so as the different existing narratives are represented in articles.
- I'm also not getting your comment about young men being killed more. Are you suggesting that it's more ok to kill young men than, say, young women?
- A general comment: in any conflict, sides always resort to propaganda. For the IDF, most of those killed will be "terrorists"; for the Palestinian side, most will be "innocent civilians".
- Another general comment: the term "militants" is the usual English translation of the Arabic term mujahid. However, this term has a broader meaning, esp. in the religious context, and often denotes all people who fight a just war (jihad), even if in an entirely non-violent manner (e.g., leaflet distribution). We need to keep it in mind when blindly copying "militant" casualties quoted by the media. I suggest that all the statements on casualty numbers are included as direct quotes and always attributed. Discrepancies can be highlighted, too, and the onus of reconciling contradictory reports from the battlefield should not lie with Wikipedia. — kashmīrī TALK 14:04, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Exactly! That's the thing. It looks like if I'm the monster, but I'm just adding what sources are saying. If Gaza reports a number of deaths, I add it, so I don't understand what is wrong in this. I also added information about casualties in Israel and I added the updated number there. I just said that the Times of Israel takes position, like when they call Palestinians militants as "terrorists", which is just their point of view and not the absolute truth. I'm adding pro-palestine sources like Al Jazeera? Probably, but I added BBC and The Guardian sources too, which were removed for no reason. Gianluigi02 (talk), 15 May 2021
- Yes Kashmiri you can be a partisan in private life. But if you are a partisan it can affect your edits, that's obvious. We can't blindly blame every partisan of bias. For that we need to check the correlation with their editing pattern to see if they are biased. Gianluigi absolutely trusts Gaza health ministry run by Hamas and distrusts IDF. Besides I don't think IDF bombs are specifically going after young men. Or are they? 9% of population accounts for a third of casualties. Why is that?
- It's obvious that either Gazan health ministry is not disclosing who is actually a militant or IDF for some reason is selectively committing a genocide disproportionately targeting young men.
- Hamas and PIJ launch rockets on Israel without caring for civilian casualties, so does IDF on Gaza at times. I won't call them terrorist on Wikipedia articles as it's prohibited, but Hamas/PIJ and IDF are terrorists. It's the truth.
- Besides I never removed Guardian or BBC in your edits. Others might have but they'll likely have their own reasons. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 14:57, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- @LéKashmiriSocialiste: You are making inexplicable and unsourced assumptions. Firstly, you are assuming that statistical distribution of sexes and ages is uniform across the entire Gaza territory. Which can be easily proven as false. For instance, the majority of warehouse workers are working-age males, so a bomb hitting an industrial estate will affect this category of people disproportionately. That was just an example. Here, a large proportion of Palestinian victims have been simply shot dead by IDF during street protests. Please take a look at who attends street protests in Gaza before you accuse the Palestinian authorities of faking data, or people will tell you that you simply don't grasp the realities on the ground.
- Re. bias – as I wrote, there are no unbiased people; everyone has a certain point of view, and people editing in a specific area certainly do tend to have a view on the subject. We also use WP:BIASED sources without problems. What we strive for is to achieve WP:BALANCED coverage of the subject, taking into account the different points of view. — kashmīrī TALK 16:51, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Kashmiri: Can you tell me how exactly I've made inexplicable and unsourced assumptions when I've provided diffs and exact explanations for Gianluigi's and Selfstudier's behaviour, while also giving you independent sources that reflect the unreliability of Gazan health ministries? That and you yourself provide no sources. Your argument about warehouse workers would have been true if IDF was disproportionately targeting warehouses, but that's not true. The number of dead are mostly dure to airstrikes than IDF shooting them. But anyway, does Washington Post and New York Times doubting the reliability of Gazan health ministry data and plainly saying they don't separate militants, look like only my assumptions? [83], [84]
- I don't agree with you on that there are no unbiased people, but anyway let's disregard that. Bias maybe present in many people, but isn't it equally true that many avoid letting it affect their edits? This is why it's said Wikipedia is not a place for your own opinions. We don't use biased sources without any problem, editors are required to check whether they are factual and reliable:
When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control, a reputation for fact-checking, and the level of independence from the topic the source is covering.
LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 12:06, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- "they'll likely have their own reasons." What are those reasons to you? What it can be the reason for removing realiable sources? Probably because they didn't liked what was written there and so, taking position. To you others can have their own positions and reasons but I can't have mine. I close the discussion with this, bye. Gianluigi02 (talk), 15 May 2021
- Either they're mistaken or it can be due to your own edits being wrong and not what the sources claim. Or they themselves might be biased. Not difficult to guess. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 15:38, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
You see there that's the evidence of your bias, you are editing with sympathy to Palestinians. Me on the other hand I'm unattached in editing and want both sides to live in peace.
- Show me someone who claims to be without bias, and I'll show you a liar.
- Right now, this appears to be a content dispute inflamed by the very real deaths happening in the region. But further claims of "they're biased but I'm not!" are likely to result in sanctions. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 15:37, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- You can call me biased if you want The Hand That Feeds You. I'm not going to the extra mile to convince you I'm not, I only said I'm unbiased to defend myself from accusations which is my right. That said you're not an admin. Please don't try to appropriate what'll get one sanctioned or not, that too without understanding the situation. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 15:43, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- "it can be due to your own edits being wrong and not what the sources claim". Nope, I added what the sources said. So, that users were taking position too. But you are just saying that my positions are wrong and that the positions of those users are good as you agree with them. But again, the topic is closed for me. Gianluigi02 (talk), 15 May 2021
- You mean the sources which you use to make-up claims like 5 militants confirmed dead when Hamas and PIJ never confirmed the number of dead militants at that time (only dead commanders) and only believe Gaza's health ministry cited by sources like Al-Jazeera? LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 08:35, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
propose speedy close
I propose a speedy close of this matter. This appears to be solely a content dispute, no incidences of behaviour by Gianluigi02 and User:Selfstudier which might warrant sanctions or warnings have been given. ANI is surely the wrong place for this, the talkpage would seem to be the right one. Boynamedsue (talk) 14:59, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I support so too. If no admin is interested in taking any action, then it's just time wastage and I'd rather stop discussing this issue fruitlessly. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 15:07, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
User:SteveBenassi WP:NOTHERE: edit warring/intentionally disruptive edits
User:SteveBenassi made several disuptive edits in the past few days. He was blocked for 36 hours for edit warring, but has returned and claimed/admitted to have purposely broken Wikipedia policies to make a scene, with the intention of pushing a POV (stating that it was "worth it").
First he edit warred, adding disputed material (then under discussion at WP:RSN) at/to the Eran Elhaik, Khazar hypothesis of Ashkenazi ancestry, Genetic studies on Jews, and Jewish history pages while ignoring edit summaries and refusing to discuss. Initially, the first page (Eran Elhaik), SteveBenassi added material, from a source which I believed WP:UNDUE. I tried to explain my reasoning in edit summaries, but he repeatedly reverted me seemingly without engaging with my explanations (after I had asked that he discuss and not edit war and announced that I would start a discussion [[85]]). I then started a Talk discussion pinging him hoping to reach a resolution. He then reverted again. Though another user engaged me in the Talk page, SteveBenassi never did (the issue then went to be discussed at RSN, with me and several others participating, where it continues). He then added the disputed material to another page (Khazar hypothesis of Ashkenazi ancestry), without ever having engaged in the discussion regarding it (either on the article Talk page or at RSN). I reverted him once there explaining that it was disputed and under discussion and asked him again (as on the other page) to discuss and not edit war. He later added the same disputed material to two other pages, Genetic studies on Jews and Jewish history (along with other somewhat controversial material, to the leads), and misleadingly marked those additions on both pages as ("m") for "minor". I reverted those edits (once on each page, again with explanations), he continued to persistently ignore edit summaries and requests/invitations to discuss, despite being asked and warned more than once.
He then continued to edit war even more at Khazar hypothesis of Ashkenazi ancestry and was reverted and reported by User:Shrike at the edit warring noticeboard (I had made an earlier report here before that). He was blocked for 36 hours.
After SteveVenassi's temporary block, I thought my earlier ANI report was no longer necessary, and said as much. But User:NonReproBlue informed me that SteveBenassi, far from having erred from an innocent ignorance of Wikipedia's policies, as he claimed at WP:RSN (here [[86]]), had, by his own admission elewhere, used edit warring and refusal to discuss as a calculated tactic to push an agenda (by purposely "making a scene"). On his own Talk page, SteveBenassi admitted:
"I intentionally made a scene to draw attention to the Ostrer issue, I knew I would be put in wiki-Jail for a day or two, I thought it was worth it, and it worked, Huldra came to the rescue."
[[87]], see it also here: [[88]].
That was in direct contradiction to another claim he made around the same time that his policy violations had been the of honest unfamiliarity (being "a newbie" and "not knowing how to use Wikipedia") (here again, as linked above [[89]]), which since he had been repeatedly warned while at that time, seemed unlikely, and given his admission quoted/linked above, now seems less than dishonest.
This is troubling and seems to show that this user is not here to build an encyclopedia. (knowingly breaking policy because the punishments were "worth it"). This seems to show that he entered Wikipedia (or at least that section of it) with a battleground mentality, a lack of good faith, and a WP:TENDENTIOUS orientation.
I initially filed a report here ([[90]] In response to the edit warring. Due to this new information, I am filing this new report.
Any attention to this matter is greatly appreciated. Skllagyook (talk) 19:19, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- And now he has gone right back to re-adding the same edit with the same summary [91]. Hopefully an admin takes a look at this soon as there is no sign that he will stop the tendentious editing. NonReproBlue (talk) 17:40, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Pinging @Ohnoitsjamie:, the admin who issued the block, they should probably be informed. NonReproBlue (talk) 17:52, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- @NonReproBlue: and @Ohnoitsjamie:, I noticed here [[92]], though SteveBenassi claims he will no longer edit (because he accomplished what he wanted by "making a scene"). But also again states his WP:TENDENTIOUS/partisan/WP:BATTLEGROUND intentions, when he says, speaking of his earlier edit warring, that "I did this for you and Elhaik" (Elhaik being a highly controversial researcher). It is concerning. Not surprisingly he is edit warring again. Skllagyook (talk) 19:05, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Pinging @Ohnoitsjamie:, the admin who issued the block, they should probably be informed. NonReproBlue (talk) 17:52, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
@Shrike: @Tritomex: @NonReproBlue: @Ohnoitsjamie: @Skllagyook:
See ...
@Tritomex: I respectfully disagree. I haven't used Wikipedia in years. I felt I was being bullied unfairly, I fought back, went to Wiki-Jail for 36 hours. Openly admitted twice in public what I was doing. I apologized. And will not do it again. See bottom of this post, I asked @NonReproBlue to make an edit for me. I have learned from my mistakes. Note: 3 people are bullying me, twisting my comments and lying about me. Thank You SteveBenassi (talk) 18:59, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
See ... search Benassi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Eran_Elhaik
Also ... See ... search Benassi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Eran_Elhaik
SteveBenassi (talk) 23:39, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- @SteveBenassi: What you say above does not seem to be the case. Your statements and behavior speak for themselves. You clearly stated that you broke the rules to make a scene (despite saying the opposite at the WP:RSN noticeboard. No one (as far as I can see) is bullying you. You (in your own admission) knew what you were doing and intentionally broke rules for WP:TENDENTIOUS purposes. Your statement again was: "I intentionally made a scene to draw attention to the Ostrer issue, I knew I would be put in wiki-Jail for a day or two, I thought it was worth it, and it worked."
- You had been warned about edit warring (by me and others) at Eran Elhaik and asked to use the Talk page and you refused/cobtinued to edit war. I don't see how any of it could have been an honest mistake. (In addition, you said you were not interested in editing again, right before reinstating the same disputed edit re Ostrer to the Elhaik page.)
- Again, please see WP:TENDENTIOUS, WP:BATTLEGROUND. Skllagyook (talk) 00:09, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Skllagyook: Stop bullying me, stop twisting my comments, stop lying about me, and stop repeating your lies over and over. Leave me alone. I have been on Wikipedia for about a week now, for the first time in years. I am still learning. I will not post again until someone tells me I can on the Palestine-Israel pages. I asked NonReproBlue to make an edit for me recently. Leave me alone, you are a Bully. SteveBenassi (talk) 00:32, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Your words are right there quoted (and here [[93]]). Nothing's being twisted. I'm not sure what lies you're referring to. It's there for anyone to see in the links I added above. Skllagyook (talk) 01:15, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Skllagyook: That was 3 days ago. You are Bullying me, twisting my comments, lying about me, and repeating your lies over and over. Leave me alone, you are a Bully SteveBenassi (talk) 01:32, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- SteveBenassi, you are not being "bullied". You are being held accountable for your behaviour on an appropriate noticeboard, for the attention of admins such as myself. Your editing by your own admission was deliberately disruptive and you were rightly blocked for it. The block has expired, you have apologised, and you have not resumed disruptive editing, so I do not believe we need to take further action against you for now - but if similar problems resume then you may expect further sanctions. However, your accusations of others lying and bullying counts as WP:ASPERSIONS and you need to stop making such groundless assertions. Fences&Windows 14:47, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Skllagyook: That was 3 days ago. You are Bullying me, twisting my comments, lying about me, and repeating your lies over and over. Leave me alone, you are a Bully SteveBenassi (talk) 01:32, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Your words are right there quoted (and here [[93]]). Nothing's being twisted. I'm not sure what lies you're referring to. It's there for anyone to see in the links I added above. Skllagyook (talk) 01:15, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Skllagyook: Stop bullying me, stop twisting my comments, stop lying about me, and stop repeating your lies over and over. Leave me alone. I have been on Wikipedia for about a week now, for the first time in years. I am still learning. I will not post again until someone tells me I can on the Palestine-Israel pages. I asked NonReproBlue to make an edit for me recently. Leave me alone, you are a Bully. SteveBenassi (talk) 00:32, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
@Fences and windows: Thank you for your feedback, I agree with you 100%. Finally I get a third party opinion. I can't tell who is an Administrator or not. Is @Huldra or @Nishidani an Administrator. And why are Administrators also allowed to edit? An administrator can abuse a new user whose POV is anathema to them, which is happening here, and let slide those they agree with. They wave flags like ARBPIA and it is not clear to me if really does apply to me. So I will work to get 500 edits on other subjects, so no one can wave that flag at me ever again. I do two things really well, Israel and Archaeology. I am on Israeli news sites every day for the past 10-15 years. I am very knowledgeable on this subject. See ...
@Alaexis: Yardumian and Schurr are Reliable Sources for the Eran Elhaik Wikipedia page. I made two edits to the Eran Elhaik page, one on Ostrer "will not defame Jews" comment, and another on The Geography of Jewish Ethnogenesis paper, causing this debate. The point I am trying to make is, in layman's terms, are Jews a race or not a race. Ostrer and his camp say Jews are a race, they are more homogenous than not, they are closely related, and they are mostly the descendants from the Ancient Hebrew in the Levant. Elhaik, Yardumian and Schurr say no, Jews are not a race, they are more heterogenous than not, they are not closely related, they are not mostly the descendants from the Ancient Hebrew in the Levant, but are mostly the descendants of converts to Judaism outside of the the Levant. Elhaik is a Zionist but is not biased in his research, he says his intention was not to disprove a connection to biblical Jews, but rather "to eliminate the racist underpinnings of anti-Semitism in Europe". Elhaik's paper was highly cited, it created a firestorm, many articles were written about it, because it threatens one of the justifications for Israel's right to exist in Palestine, DNA. I think we should modify this to reflect the above "Yardumian and Schurr have criticized both Elhaik's Khazar hypothesis and the mainstream model it challenged, on the grounds that, in their view, both assume the same homeland-diaspora expansion model. As opposed to this, they view Jewish ethnogenesis as one rooted in multiple heterogeneous populations which, often after conversion, coalesced to form modern day Jews. " SteveBenassi (talk) 04:37, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
I have read the paper of Yardumian and Schurr. It is a secondary source by two qualified authors published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. The authors openly disagree with the conclusions drawn by some of the papers they review and give reasons for their disagreement; this is how science works and it isn't our business to take sides. I don't want to comment on exactly how it is used in articles, but I don't see the slightest reason to prohibit its use. Zerotalk 07:10, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Neutral editors please note that the use of this perfectly normal academic article is being edited out of several pages: not only at the Eran Elhaik page, which is crammed with references hostile to the author (in violation of wiki bio's NPOV policy) but also at the Khazar hypothesis of Ashkenazi ancestry here by Skllagyook, and then by User:Shrike (here and at Genetic studies on Jews here by Skllagyook, and at Jewish History here, again by Skllagyook.
It would appear in all four cases that Skllagyook has taken it upon himself to disallow a new perfectly normal piece of academic research to be cited for its conclusions anywhere on Wikipedia; That they do so because they are convinced the majority view is tantamount to the truth and not a contestable opinion. That is not only abusive POV pushing. It is outright censorship of any dissonant voice, one in this case, coming from perfectly respectable scholars. I.e. we have the extraordinary phenomenon of a peer-reviewed piece of scholarship suffering interdiction from appearing on Wikipedia because an editor has arrogated the right to step in an assume the mantle of ultimate judge on what can, and cannot be thought, about the topic. An editor of unknown background is acting as if they knew more about the topic of population statistics, genetics and Jewish history than the scholars who specialize in it or the peer-review committee who approved its publication on vetting it. Nishidani (talk) 08:34, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Thank You Again. SteveBenassi (talk) 15:40, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- SteveBenassi, you can tell who an admin is via https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&limit=1&username=Fences%20and%20windows or equivalent. Neither Nishidani nor Huldra are admins. Admins are also editors, we just have community trust to use tools like blocks, protection, and deletion. However, admins may not use their tools or close discussions when they have been involved in a dispute. See WP:INVOLVED.
- Please don't repost long extracts of talk page discussions - your point is unclear and this is not the venue to discuss article content.
- ARBPIA is not a weapon used against editors, it is a formal restriction to prevent newer accounts, who tend to cause more disruption, from editing relating to the Israel-Palestine conflict. ArbCom introduced this to reduce problem editing after years of disputes. You will have been made aware of this so you do not inadvertently edit contrary to these general sanctions, because you have edited in adjacent areas. Fences&Windows 19:28, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Fences and windows: It is not clear to me if I have violated ARBPIA. I can't find much about this topic on Wikipedia. The impression I get is that it is not so much the pages that are out of bounds, but what you say on the pages. For example, the Eran Elhaik Wikipedia page, is that a page I cannot edit on, or I can edit on it as long as I don't say specific words or phrases? What are the "adjacent areas" you mention. Is there a specific page that has all this information. The ones I am finding are useless. Thank You. SteveBenassi (talk) 19:51, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think you have breached ARBPIA, SteveBenassi. The genetics of Jewish populations are not per se related to the Arab-Israeli conflict - but if it were to spill into which modern people has a claim to Israel and Palestine based on genetic ancestry then it would be related. The latest ruling from ArbCom is at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_4#Remedies. They say "the "area of conflict" shall be defined as encompassing a) the entire set of articles whose topic relates to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly interpreted ("primary articles"), and b) edits relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict, to pages and discussions in all namespaces with the exception of userspace ("related content")." It's intentionally vague as we can't possibly codify all such relevant articles and edits. Fences&Windows 20:27, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Fences and windows:The parts that seemed to me to break ARBPIA are the edit summaries, which say "Showing Ostrer is a Zionist and biased, and that his research is suspect" and talk page comments like
"Ostrer's fake research says Jews are a "race", Elhaik, Yardumian, Schurr say Jews are not a "race", which threatens one of the major justifications for Israel's right to exist in Palestine, DNA"
. Just for clarification, are things like this really not covered by the ARBPIA sanctions? NonReproBlue (talk) 05:07, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Fences and windows:The parts that seemed to me to break ARBPIA are the edit summaries, which say "Showing Ostrer is a Zionist and biased, and that his research is suspect" and talk page comments like
- I don't think you have breached ARBPIA, SteveBenassi. The genetics of Jewish populations are not per se related to the Arab-Israeli conflict - but if it were to spill into which modern people has a claim to Israel and Palestine based on genetic ancestry then it would be related. The latest ruling from ArbCom is at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_4#Remedies. They say "the "area of conflict" shall be defined as encompassing a) the entire set of articles whose topic relates to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly interpreted ("primary articles"), and b) edits relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict, to pages and discussions in all namespaces with the exception of userspace ("related content")." It's intentionally vague as we can't possibly codify all such relevant articles and edits. Fences&Windows 20:27, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Fences and windows: It is not clear to me if I have violated ARBPIA. I can't find much about this topic on Wikipedia. The impression I get is that it is not so much the pages that are out of bounds, but what you say on the pages. For example, the Eran Elhaik Wikipedia page, is that a page I cannot edit on, or I can edit on it as long as I don't say specific words or phrases? What are the "adjacent areas" you mention. Is there a specific page that has all this information. The ones I am finding are useless. Thank You. SteveBenassi (talk) 19:51, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Fences and windows: The edit war involved 5 people over 1 edit, @Huldra and myself vs two administrators @Skllagyook and @NonReproBlue and user @Shrike, over the following edit https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eran_Elhaik&type=revision&diff=1023216318&oldid=1023185193 . @Huldra asked @NonReproBlue to "Please take it to a RfC if you disagree", @NonReproBlue refused and continued to edit war, shutting down the debate, which is not allowed according to your words above. @NonReproBlue and @Skllagyook object to my edit comments "Using original quote from news article. Showing Ostrer is a Zionist and biased, and that his research is suspect. See ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Ostrer#Criticisms" Did I violate ARBPIA, and why am I solely blamed for this edit war? What we have here are two administrators with unknown backgrounds, objecting to a new paper, The Geography of Jewish Ethnogenesis, that goes against their POV, while also protecting Harry Ostrer who refuses to share his data with Eran Elhaik, because it endangers a major justification for Israel's right to exist in Palestine, DNA. SteveBenassi (talk) 11:50, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you for the clarification, NonReproBlue.
- @Fences and windows: The edit war involved 5 people over 1 edit, @Huldra and myself vs two administrators @Skllagyook and @NonReproBlue and user @Shrike, over the following edit https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eran_Elhaik&type=revision&diff=1023216318&oldid=1023185193 . @Huldra asked @NonReproBlue to "Please take it to a RfC if you disagree", @NonReproBlue refused and continued to edit war, shutting down the debate, which is not allowed according to your words above. @NonReproBlue and @Skllagyook object to my edit comments "Using original quote from news article. Showing Ostrer is a Zionist and biased, and that his research is suspect. See ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Ostrer#Criticisms" Did I violate ARBPIA, and why am I solely blamed for this edit war? What we have here are two administrators with unknown backgrounds, objecting to a new paper, The Geography of Jewish Ethnogenesis, that goes against their POV, while also protecting Harry Ostrer who refuses to share his data with Eran Elhaik, because it endangers a major justification for Israel's right to exist in Palestine, DNA. SteveBenassi (talk) 11:50, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- So, SteveBenassi, you were indeed in breach of the ARBPIA general sanctions. I had missed that connection of your editing. You weren't aware then but you are aware now and yet you've literally just breached the ArbCom ruling again with your latest post here. You are not extended confirmed, so you do not get to discuss this here. You were already blocked for edit warring and we are not going to block anyone else for that dispute. Drop this now or I will block you again. Please read WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:GREATWRONGS; we do not need this kind of approach to editing. You need to learn to be collaborative and not adversarial. You can consider this a final warning. Fences&Windows 12:39, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
User:ClueBot NG is malfunctioning
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Made edit on very large page (List of Top Level Domains) to make tables collapsible, but cluebot reverted it immediately. Some tables were set to auto collapse, however these were only tables. Also forgot to mark as minor edit since it was a formatting issue, but it still got reverted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by UppercutPawnch (talk • contribs) 12:30, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- @UppercutPawnch: Is this a systematic problem? If it is, please list the diffs. Otherwise, this is just a plain old false positive. It happens. pandakekok9 (talk) 12:40, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Pandakekok9: Yeah it's just a false positive. Didn't read the cluebot message I got on my user page all the way. Sorry, but thanks for reverting for me. UppercutPawnch (talk) 12:47, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- @UppercutPawnch: Don't quote me on this, but I believe ClueBot is set up to only revert once or twice if the same edit is made repeatedly. jp×g 22:40, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Pandakekok9: Yeah it's just a false positive. Didn't read the cluebot message I got on my user page all the way. Sorry, but thanks for reverting for me. UppercutPawnch (talk) 12:47, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
46.97.170.0/24
Individual IPs:
- 46.97.170.78 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- 46.97.170.112 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- 46.97.170.19 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- 46.97.170.253 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Range:
- 46.97.170.0/24 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Previous ANI report: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1038#Personal attacks, BLP attack etc. by 46.97.170.78
- BLPN Discussion: Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Gina Carano
User appears to be here for the sole purpose of bludgeoning, picking fights and pushing a particular POV.
- "it is a well known fact that Hungary is, and to some degree always has been a hotbed of right wing populism and nationalist sentiments"[94]
- "There is no "left" on wikipedia. But if right wingers want to win more edit wars, they should care more about objective facts."[95]
- "look at the kind of people who make it their business to regugularly defend him. You will notice that all of them are either republican pundits, or alt-right/alt-lite influencers. "[96]
- "This is what I meant when I said that Babylon Bee is no different from any other right wing disinfo site. Fox, OAN, Newsmax, Bounding into Comics, you name it, they're all the same."[97]
- "Evidence? You mean aside from every single breadtuber that ever analyzed his ideologies in depth, and aside from the fact that all of Jordan Peterson's fans on youtube are members of or associated with the alt right? I souldn't need to prove what's common knowledge and easily verifyable."[98]
- "I called Ben Shapiro a far right grifter, because that is what he is."[99]
- "Also, no mention that her holocaust comments were interpreted as comparing American conservatives to Jews in Nazi Germany"[100]
- "The point is that putting Peterson's words into the mouth of a skull faced nazi character makes them sound like a villain monologue. But Peterson apologists are too devoid of self awareness to realize that."[101]
- "We're talking about a newspaper that FIRED a long time employee because he wasn't a trump bootlicker, and prohibited a reporter from covering the George Floyd protests on basis of skin color. I'd be very disappointed if I looked at Wikipedia's list of reliable sources and learned that it wasn't blacklisted like Breitbart, the Daily Wire or other right wing trumpist rags."[102] (He is talking about the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette)
- "I only brought up Trump because like Peterson, he's a symptom of the same cancer that's destroying modern society. Yes, one had actual political power, and nearly destroyed the country. But people like Peterson are part of the reason there are people dumb enough to actually vote for trump. Their carreer's are uncomparable, but they represent the same toxic far right ideology."[103]
- "The first paragraph of the section is nothing but right wing pundits flapping their mouths and spouting right wing punditry, and should be deleted entirely."[104]
Also:
- Deleting other user's talk page comments.[105] (The deleted comment was right-wing stupidity, but no worse than what 46.97.170.0/24 regularly posts.)
- Removing sources because "they are agenda driven"[106]
--Guy Macon (talk) 15:30, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Two things before I address the broader issue: Firstly, my IP cnages periodically and unpredictably, and it's entirely outside my control, so there's no point leaving a notification on one I'm no longer using - it's not likely I will be assigned that particular IP again. Second, I find the last two claims to be unfair. The talk page in question has had several similar comments removed by other users, on the grounds that they are off topic and have nothing to do with the subject. I apologize if I got the wrong impression that this is standard practice. Regarding the sources I removed from How_to_Be_an_Antiracist, other contributors CONFIRMED that I had the right idea. You can read it on the talk page.
- The vast majority of problem lines, quite honestly confuse me. I tried to avoid picking fights ever since last year's incidents. I'd be the first to admit fault if it turns out I wasn't always entirely successful in that regard, but many of my lines presented here don't seem to make sense. My comment on the Gina Carano talk page, regarding her holocaust comments expecially strikes me as out of place, because it's just a near word for word reference to content from the article itself. Some of the stronger opinions are no worse than what registered contributors, including some admins have said. I've read essays on wikipedia that use stronger language. The last ANI report was most certainly justified, seeing as I made baseless accusations of vandalism, and made some rather inappropriate comments. The only thing presented here that comes anywhere near that, when looket at in context, appears to be my comments on the Post-Gazette, which, looking back, definitely feels like something I should not have said. Maybe the trump comment too - that's was a pointless tangent, and the Ben Shapiro one is definitely a BLP violation. I'm going to redact these immediately. There's also that long off-topic argument on Jordan Peterson's talk page, that carried on far too long, but I was not the sole responsible party there, and it was not my intention to go off topic.
- That's three comments, that are inappropriate, maybe two where I used harsher language than I should have, and one that was probably put here by mistake, because it's a sentence fragment from the article - not my words. I'm not seeing the problem with the rest, however. I wasn't trying to pick fights. I received two warnings in april which I tried to discuss and clarify, but unfortunately I didn't get any responses. Still, it is true that wikipedia isn't a forum, and some of the discussions I involved myself in, did unfortunately go in that direction, which was not my intent. 46.97.170.112 (talk) 16:46, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) In my opinion, even if you are unfailingly polite towards other users, expressing your POV with phrases like "far right grifter", "trump bootlicker", "the same cancer that's destroying modern society" and "nearly destroyed the country" shows me that you are more interested in promoting your political ideology than in building an encyclopedia. I am actually sympathetic because I shore many of your opinions about certain recent politicians, but I mostly keep those opinions to myself because they are out of place here.
- The other problem I see is WP:BLUDGEONING. You don't just express your political opinions. You keep expressing your political opinions again and again even when it has become clear that the consensus is against you. What I am not seeing is any hint of compromise or cooperation.
- In my opinion, you should be topic banned from anything related to post-1992 politics of the United States, broadly construed. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:15, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- The unregistered editor wrote: "Firstly, my IP cnages periodically and unpredictably, and it's entirely outside my control". No. That is under your control, in that you can register an account. It is only outside your control if you insist on not registering. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:42, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
Not to mention one of the three users who supported your version felt the need to write that "Carano did not tweet anti-Semitism and transphobia" so no prizes for guessing what their agenda here is.
[107]Let us be real here. Gina Carano is a nobody. Her becoming an alt-right sweetheart for stirring the pot with her idiotic social media posts and doubling down when politely asked to stop is the only reason people even know she exists. Before that she was a failed martial artist who got massively owned in her first real match, and an untalented d-list actress playing silent bit roles where she was cast purely for her size and frame.
[108] redacted by another editor- Link to open BLP/N thread
- I've only had extensive experience with this editor on the Gina Carano article, and in general it hasn't been very pleasant. They have no issue with making BLP violating comments on the talk page, or accusing editors of having an agenda. The two quotes above give, I think, a reasonable distillation of what discussions with them are like. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:10, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- I've been watching this IP editor for a month or so (since they joined the Peterson article). I raised a concern with their talk page comments on their talk page here [[109]]. I share Guy Macon's concerns. I do think it is a positive sign that they have, after posting here, started removing some of their offending comments (example [[110]]). I also will say I don't see disruption of the article's themselves, just frustrating talk page behavior. My feeling is they are on a fence. If they recognize the issue and are willing to fix the problem I think any additional sanctions would be punitive. However, if they continue I would support some type of Tban. It might have to be an IP range block due to the lack of a named account. It also would be good if they created an account. The combination of aggressive comments and shifting IPs is a problem. Several of the talk pages have similar warnings. Springee (talk) 17:37, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- As with Springee above, I am willing to grant a very short length of WP:ROPE given that the user in question appears to be willing to redact their earlier offensive comments and commit to being better behaved moving forward. I'd have considered a ban had they not just done so, and would be willing to consider a formal ban of some sort if the shenanigans continue, however. --Jayron32 17:44, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- My initial tendency on this one was to also go for a warning given my assumption this was a new editor and WP is a different environment than most others. However, I'm not sure I agree anymore. Now that I've seen this behavior has gone on for a while and only seems to change when ANI gets involved. I would recommend reading the previous incident report and noting that IP was already on a short rope. I might also be a bit more supportive if the user was making constructive edits otherwise, but that doesn't seem to be the case either. This feels very much like a user who wants a forum and to POV push and thinks they can walk the line on behavior, backing off just shy of getting banned. I'd recommend a Tban as well, but can support a warning if we think that is more prudent. Just a note to future ANI administrators in case this comes up again. Squatch347 (talk) 19:29, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Having just reviewed the earlier ANI, I'm going to suggest a short rope strategy that might not be technically possible. I would suggest range blocking the IP but offering the option to create an account that isn't blocked (is that possible?). If they mess up the account gets blocked and future IP edits can be blocked per EVADE. However, they still have ROPE so they can show that they were listening. Springee (talk) 20:19, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks Guy Macon for the comprehensive report. I've also seen this IP tendentiously attack BLPs and other editors, so I wasn't surprised when someone reported them to WP:BLP/N. They eerily remind me of the sock who was harassing me when I first started editing. The IP has been warned more than enough times from plenty of experienced editors, so I don't think offering them anymore chances will do any good. I included some additional diffs in case anyone wants to take a peak. Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 00:08, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Additional Diffs
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I oppose giving this IP more rope, based upon:
- The promises given in the previous ANI report and the rope they were given at that time.
- Their heartfelt belief that anything other than demonizing any person and any source that shows the slightest trace of conservatism is a NPOV violation that must be fought tooth and nail no matter what the consensus is. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:11, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm going to agree with Guy Macon here. They were given a chance in the previous AN/I thread and they've gone right back to the behaviour that got them reported in the first place. --RaiderAspect (talk) 06:16, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
I am going to try and address as much of this as possible. I will say this first, I don't have any objections to a topic ban if it's decided that's necessary. The arguments for it do sound convincing. That being said, some of the claims here appear unfair to me.
- To start off, many of the offending comments being brought up here, are from last year, and have already been a subject of an ANI. I have admitted to wrongdoing then, redacted many of the offending comments, and refrained from further activity on the site for the rest of the year. The comments I made then included actual potentially libellous statements on BLP subjects, personal attacks on other users, including unfair accusations of vandalism, and a couple of minor edits that could be considered vandalism. I do not think any of my recent comments are of that nature, or even close. I have tried to refrain from that behavior, keeping last year's ANI in mind. I don't see the point in bringing those up again.
- Some of the specific accusations are simply wrong. I have been accused multiple times of calling Coleman Hughes an "alt right grifter", which I did not do. And due to unfortunate wording, my comment to clarify that I was referring to Ben Shapiro, not Hughes, was just used to incriminate me further. Dr Swag Lord brings that point up against me in the above BLP Noticeboard discussion (of which I received no notification for some reason), along with the claim that I also called Jordan Peterson a "nazi supervillain", which is also not true, as was pointed out to him. He began bringing up last years incidents after he and several others with BLP violation complaints against me were told that they don't have a strong case against me. He also seems to suspect me of being someone he had a previous conflict with - I don't know what the basis of this assumption is.
- On the Jordan Peterson talk page, aside from the one comment I redacted, the only real objectionable thing I did is getting involved in a long thread derailment, when another user tried to debate the contents of two sources, arguing that they were using guilt by association. I understand that wikipedia is not a forum, and I shouldn't have gotten into that argument as far as I did, but I was not the sole responsible party.
- The assessment that I find anything less than demonization of anyone even remotely associated with conservatism to be NPOV, and that I fight tooth and nail against consensus, strikes me as unfair. Especially seeing as my comments on the Thomas Sowell article seem to be the impetus - correct me if I'm wrong. I understand that my choice of words was far from neutral, but to say I was fighting tooth and nail against consensus, so the article would demonize the subject is an exxagerration. Thomas Sowell is a controversial figure, but his article doesn't reflect that at all. I have also argued that over a quarter of sources are primary and come from the subject himself. If I'm wrong about that, that's due to me misinterpreting WP:ABOUTSELF, not the desire to "demonize".
- Similarly, on the Gina Carano talk page, where I've been the most active, and where the "tooth and nail" remark does apply, I wasn't fighting for the demonization of the subject but over the inclusion of information that was already in the existing sources. I objected to the use of a specific wording, which is only used by one source, and asked for the inclusion of relevant information that was in multiple sources, and was previously part of the article. The only comments I made about on the subject herself, had to do with her notability, and the relative notability of the social media controversy. My comments about users "pushing an agenda" was referring to contributors supporting the exclusion of information based on their own personal interpretation of primary sources, rather than what reliable sources say. This has been already covered in the BLP noticeboard discussion above. Morbidthoughts made correct observations about my comments without me having to defend myself, so I don't see why ScottishFinnishRaddish keep insisting that my only goal is to throw insults.
- Regarding Squatch347's comments I think it's fair to point out that I have made constructive edits in the past. I know I used a lot of politically charged language, and sometimes go off into unnecessary tangents when giving my reasoning but a lot of the content I have removed have been justified. On How to Be and Antiracist, the consensus was ultimately on my side, and multiple attempts to restore my deletions have been reverted by registered users. I also nominated the article on Dan Fraga for deletion due to the self-promotional nature of it. I had a rather long and exhausting dispute on the Removal of Confederate monuments and memorials regarding the reliablility of some of the sources in the "academic commentary" section. I'm also involved in the discussion on the talk page of the upcoming The Little Mermaid film, regarding an alleged casting controversy, which I don't believe is notable enough to warrant mentioning. I also removed a guilt by association claim from Ibram X. Kendi and warned of incoming vandalism on that article and on Heidi Heitkamp. I know this is overshadowed by my annoying habit of getting into unnecessarily long arguments and using language that is oftentimes unwarranted, I just felt the need to point out that I did make constructive edits.
Now, this is mostly my response to the nature of the claims made against me, not really to the core issue (i.e. frustrating talk page behavior), which I don't dispute. Like I said, if a topic ban is found to be appropriate, I'm not going to object to it. 46.97.170.112 (talk) 09:52, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing where I've said your only goal is to throw insults. Do you have a diff or two of that? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:34, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
How about this? They're not arguing for inclusion based on sources, recognizing that sources don't support them. It's just complaints and insults about a BLP.
from the BLPN discussion. It's possible I'm misunderstanding. Notice that the words "racist" and "bootlicker" are in quotation marks. Those are not my words, those are from comments made about the subject as reported by the sources. My argument was that she was being criticised rather than bullied. I was trying to argue for the same wording I brought up again recently but I ended up dropping it because not enough sources justify it. In the case of many other comments I made about Gina Carano personally, I was arguing about how much coverage the controversy should receive in proportion to the rest of the article. I do admit some of it did sound insulting, and not at all neutral, but Morbidthoughts managed to get my intentions without me having to say a single word. Anyway, I'll probably be out for the weekend. I'll see what the decision is when I get back. 46.97.170.112 (talk) 12:36, 14 May 2021 (UTC)The problem is, that reliable sources do not touch on this, at least not to an extent that it would be notable. Gina Carano, in spite of some people here insisting otherwise, is nowhere near noteworthy enough for her political beliefs, as insane and nonsensical as they are, to be of any relevance, outside the usual far right echochambers.
[126] was the diff I linked, which I was commenting on. You yourself said that the sources didn't touch on it and that she was not noteworthy for her political beliefs, then called her beliefs insane. I would say that that specific diff that I was describing was not arguing for inclusion based on sources, recognizing that sources don't support the inclusion and that you were complaining about and insulting a BLP. It also wasn't a comment that your only goal was to throw insults, and to say so is disingenuous as there was clearly a diff attached. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:49, 14 May 2021 (UTC)- Sorry, I missed that. I can see why people would misunderstand that comment, but that wasn't referring to the controversy. It was referring specifically to her ties to Comicsgate, which indeed isn't covered by reliable sources. In the first couple of months when this was fresh news, I was expecting some kind of expose from the media, but it never happened. Point is, I was talking about an issue not directly related to the controversy as it was covered by reliable sources. So I wasn't admitting that the things I was arguing for weren't covered by reliable sources, I was talking about something else that I was initially hoping for eventually being included not being covered by reliable sources, if that makes sense. I know it's not obvious, and my wording certainly didn't help. 46.97.170.112 (talk) 13:19, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Part of the problem, 46.97, is the use of rhetoric such as "as insane and nonsensical as they are" and "far right echo chamber". Your statement without those portions,
The problem is, that reliable sources do not touch on this, at least not to an extent that it would be notable. Gina Carano, in spite of some people here insisting otherwise, is nowhere near noteworthy enough for her political beliefs to be of any relevance.
would have been a sufficient comment on the situation; the pejorative and disdainful rhetoric is actually distracting from what was otherwise a cogent and good point, and many people (including those of us who, in a less formal setting than Wikipedia like at a bar enjoying a few beverages together, would likely agree with your analysis) find such asides to be rude and distracting. Regardless of our opinions on the politics of others (such as other users, or the people of subjects we are writing about on Wikipedia and discussing), we're still expected to maintain a level of decorum and grant those people (and those around us) a certain level of dignity. Comments like "insane and nonsensical" have no place in such discussions at Wikipedia, and people tire of them when you keep using rhetoric like that. THAT is the crux of the problem. --Jayron32 13:29, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Part of the problem, 46.97, is the use of rhetoric such as "as insane and nonsensical as they are" and "far right echo chamber". Your statement without those portions,
- Sorry, I missed that. I can see why people would misunderstand that comment, but that wasn't referring to the controversy. It was referring specifically to her ties to Comicsgate, which indeed isn't covered by reliable sources. In the first couple of months when this was fresh news, I was expecting some kind of expose from the media, but it never happened. Point is, I was talking about an issue not directly related to the controversy as it was covered by reliable sources. So I wasn't admitting that the things I was arguing for weren't covered by reliable sources, I was talking about something else that I was initially hoping for eventually being included not being covered by reliable sources, if that makes sense. I know it's not obvious, and my wording certainly didn't help. 46.97.170.112 (talk) 13:19, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
A relevant comment[127] from User:Nil Einne from the last time ANI was ashed to deal with this:
- "Needing to be brought to ANI before you recognise your fault is often not a good sign. Of course it does depend on what attempts were made to discuss this with first so I checked out your talk page and found [128] where you already agreed you got carried away. Which would be great if you hadn't caused major issues since then. But the unsupported wikipedia vandal claim is after that acknowledgement [129] and as Pudeo said you got challenged yet doubled down once [130]. The best solution by far would be if this doesn't happen again. If you keep finding yourself getting carried away or irrational, you need to find some way to deal with it that doesn't involve problem edits and then fixing them when people complain enough. Either take a break before posting, or stop editing in the subject areas where you're finding it difficult to control yourself."
I don't think we can trust any further promises from 46.97.170.0/24 to stop the objectionable behavior and I do not believe that at this time 46.97.170.0/24 has the ability to contribute productively in the area of post-1992 politics of the United States. I say we should impose a topic ban and invite them to edit constructively in other areas with the usual offer to appeal the topic ban after six month of showing good behavior in other areas. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:20, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Guy Macon, I tend to agree with you, especially after seeing the attempts already made to address the issue with them and their responses above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:48, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- One final thought (written for the average editor: admins know all of this already); we traditionally only block IPs for shortish periods because the ISP could assign the IP to someone else tomorrow. Blocks from editing certain pages can be longer; the odds of that second person using the same IP not only editing Wikipedia but editing the same page are very small. But in this case I am thinking that no actual block is needed. Just tell 46.97.170.0/24 that they are topic banned from post-1992 politics of the United States broadly construed, give them a clear explanation of what Wikipedia:Broadly construed means, and I think they will obey the restriction. This will also give them a good argument when and if they later request that the topic ban be lifted: "I spent X months without a topic ban violation". The ultimate goal is not to stop people from editing. The ultimate goal is to convert them to productive and valuable editors. Back in 2006 I was an extremely disruptive IP editor, but when a veteran editor calmly explained to me how Wikipedia is different from your average social media website, I learned how to be a good editor. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:39, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I would suggest including a BLP tban just in case. I also think if they agree to create an account we should give them a very small amount of rope. I would hope that Jayron32 (talk · contribs)'s later post was sufficient to illustrate the sort of talk page comments that are not helpful. Springee (talk) 02:58, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Have they ever caused any disruption on BLP pages or talk pages not related to post-1992 politics of the United States? --Guy Macon (talk) 13:04, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Most disruption has been focused on WP:AMPOL related BLP pages. But they also caused disruption on BLPs like Mark Waid [131], Joe Rogan[132], Elon Musk[133], Larry Sanger[134], and Jacob Gardner[135]. Joe Rogan may fall under AP2, but I don't think the other ones do. Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 20:22, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Have they ever caused any disruption on BLP pages or talk pages not related to post-1992 politics of the United States? --Guy Macon (talk) 13:04, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I would suggest including a BLP tban just in case. I also think if they agree to create an account we should give them a very small amount of rope. I would hope that Jayron32 (talk · contribs)'s later post was sufficient to illustrate the sort of talk page comments that are not helpful. Springee (talk) 02:58, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- One final thought (written for the average editor: admins know all of this already); we traditionally only block IPs for shortish periods because the ISP could assign the IP to someone else tomorrow. Blocks from editing certain pages can be longer; the odds of that second person using the same IP not only editing Wikipedia but editing the same page are very small. But in this case I am thinking that no actual block is needed. Just tell 46.97.170.0/24 that they are topic banned from post-1992 politics of the United States broadly construed, give them a clear explanation of what Wikipedia:Broadly construed means, and I think they will obey the restriction. This will also give them a good argument when and if they later request that the topic ban be lifted: "I spent X months without a topic ban violation". The ultimate goal is not to stop people from editing. The ultimate goal is to convert them to productive and valuable editors. Back in 2006 I was an extremely disruptive IP editor, but when a veteran editor calmly explained to me how Wikipedia is different from your average social media website, I learned how to be a good editor. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:39, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I think we entertained the IP editor long enough. If someone calls a leading First Amendment scholar
"a right wing hack"
and so on, the editor is either trolling or incompetent to edit BLPs. Or at least the area of American Politics. Ban them and let them appeal if they learn to adhere to core policies and guidelines. Politrukki (talk) 18:47, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Call for close ( 46.97.170.0/24 )
It is unlikely that further discussion will change the result of this discussion. May we have an uninvolved administrator evaluate the consensus, write up a summary, and close this? --Guy Macon (talk) 03:25, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Lowercase sigmabot III not operating correctly on this page
Lowercase sigmabot III is missing most of the threads it is supposed to be archving on this board, leaving the board to pile up excessively (which reduces engagement and problem-solving). I don't know how long this has been going on, because I've been on a break from the "drama boards" for some months, but when I checked in today, there were more than 68 threads on the board (when ideally there should be less than 35).
The automated archiving on this page has long been set to 3 days -- threads which have not received input for more than 72 hours get auto-archived by the bot. Lowercase sigmabot III made this edit today at 12:00, 13 May 2021 (UTC), but it left 19 threads which had had no timestamps in over three days. Many of the threads had been stale for a week or more. None of them had DNAU codes.
This really needs to be fixed so that admin engagement and problem solving can occur efficiently here and admins are not overwhelmed by a board that is 600,000 bytes long and has over 65 threads. I had to go in and one-click archive the very stale threads myself.
I'm posting this here because ANI does not have a dedicated talk page. Also, I'm not sure whether this problem exists on pages other than this one.
In any case, this bot needs to be fixed, and/or retired and a new one created if this one has passed its prime. Softlavender (talk) 04:56, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- It looks like it was working fine the morning of 8 May [136], and didn't miss any threads, but then it didn't edit the page again until 13 May [137], where it's ignoring sections that should be archived. Modulus12 (talk) 05:15, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Modulus12, I'm guess you mistyped, because "sections" do not get archived, only entire threads. I agree that the bot was not doing anything at all on this page between May 8 and May 13, so there is a definite malfunction happening by May 8, even though it was operating on other pages between May 8 and May 12: [138]. Softlavender (talk) 05:39, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- This is quite the tangent, but my use of "sections" is correct, I'm pretty sure. (See Help:Section.) A section can contain multiple threads, sub-sections, etc. Modulus12 (talk) 05:44, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Articles have sections. Noticeboards and talkpages -- where editors post and sign their posts -- have threads (see Help:Talk pages), and sections within those threads; sections within threads often get closed prior to the entire thread getting closed, but the sections do not get archived, only the entire thread when it is stale or closed. Softlavender (talk) 06:14, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Holding a mouse over the "edit" link for this discussion currently shows a URL that includes
&action=edit§ion=74
. Clicking that link would edit section 74 on this page. Someone might call this discussion a thread, or a collapsed sub-discussion a section, but that's just because language is hard to pin down and words get used for convenience. Archiving occurs by section using the&action=edit§ion=74
meaning. Johnuniq (talk) 07:49, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Holding a mouse over the "edit" link for this discussion currently shows a URL that includes
- Articles have sections. Noticeboards and talkpages -- where editors post and sign their posts -- have threads (see Help:Talk pages), and sections within those threads; sections within threads often get closed prior to the entire thread getting closed, but the sections do not get archived, only the entire thread when it is stale or closed. Softlavender (talk) 06:14, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- This is quite the tangent, but my use of "sections" is correct, I'm pretty sure. (See Help:Section.) A section can contain multiple threads, sub-sections, etc. Modulus12 (talk) 05:44, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Modulus12, I'm guess you mistyped, because "sections" do not get archived, only entire threads. I agree that the bot was not doing anything at all on this page between May 8 and May 13, so there is a definite malfunction happening by May 8, even though it was operating on other pages between May 8 and May 12: [138]. Softlavender (talk) 05:39, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Sigmabot usually does not edit as a result of a) nothing needing to be moved, or b) a blacklisted term/URL being in the source of either the page to be archived or the target archive (rarely a c) Toolforge is down). If it was operating on other pages at that time, then it's probably either a or b. Izno (talk) 05:48, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- It's clear there were threads that needed to be archived between May 8 and May 13; that's how the page ballooned to 68 or more threads. It seems to me that, like all archiving bots eventually do, Lowercase Sigmabot III is malfunctioning and may need to be replaced. That's why over the years we've had so many iterations of the original archiving bot under a handful of various names. Softlavender (talk) 06:14, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- In this edit I pointed out, from noon May 13 UTC, Lowercase sigmabot III left out, starting from the top, "Terry Bean", "Co-ordinated off-wiki disruption at Turkish War of Independence", "Film awards WP:NOR from IP range in Georgia, U.S.", "Regarding user Knewdates for bad faith editing and what I see as intimidation Daniel Lee (designer)", "Mikeymikemikey", "Cheesy McGee", and 13 other threads that hadn't been edited in at least three days (most of them hadn't been edited since May 5 UTC). Softlavender (talk) 08:44, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- The underlying problem is in the wikitext computation library maintained by @The Earwig:. Perhaps you could take a look, Earwig?
- The thread titled COVID: SYNTH, BLUDGEON and MEDRS (moved from AE) seems to have consumed 31 of the sections below it, up to and including the one titled User:SteveBenassi persistent disruptive edits: edit warring, refusing to discuss/engage. Sourced from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=1022942665
- In addition, @Softlavender:, I think there are more conscientious ways of reporting this issue and bringing it to my/our attention. Apology accepted in advance.
- Thanks. →Σσς. (Sigma) 10:21, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I made no apology and I will make none. My aim was to be conscientious and so I was; I'm not sure why you are WP:ABF or have a problem with my report. If a bot that affects so very many users and their on-wiki problems and requests for assistance is not functioning correctly, and has been problematical for several days, I report it as quickly as I can and with as much information as I can. Softlavender (talk) 10:29, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- In the meantime I've archived that thread, as there's nothing left to do in there anyway, and it was reopened by an SPA to relitigate a content decision. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:31, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Hey Sigma. As you know, this is a known bug and not easily fixed. — The Earwig (talk) 12:33, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- The first section to not be archived had an unclosed
[[User:Novem_Linguae/Essays/There_was_no_lab_leak#Top_quality,_WP:MEDRS_sources|this
. The section before the first section to be archived had a matching unopened[Khazar hypothesis of Ashkenazi ancestry]]
. The software probably viewed it as one large block which could not be split, and the block included recent signatures so it wasn't archived. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:25, 14 May 2021 (UTC)- So would "post a helpful error message somewhere if large blocks containing section breaks occur" be a useful feature request so we can fix this issue manually the next time it occurs? —Kusma (t·c) 12:45, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I think PrimeHunter has it right about what's causing the bug, and it's not what I originally thought. This bug is surprising to me, and I will need to look more carefully tonight. If we're going to teach the bot how to identify misparsed section breaks, it would be easy enough to have it handle the breaks correctly rather than report an error. — The Earwig alt (talk) 14:58, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- That's a fun failure mode.... Keep that in my sigmabot does things pocket. Izno (talk) 14:55, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- So would "post a helpful error message somewhere if large blocks containing section breaks occur" be a useful feature request so we can fix this issue manually the next time it occurs? —Kusma (t·c) 12:45, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I think we should block The Earwig for wrecking. EEng 07:54, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Well, it's not an ANI thread without a call to block someone. — The Earwig (talk) 18:53, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
I think it'd be possible to manually archive some of the very old sections here (like §Francis Schonken, closed five days ago). jp×g 22:32, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Luckily, User:Σ/Testing facility/Archiver is available to make manual archiving easy. →Σσς. (Sigma) 04:09, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
I've released a fix for the specific bug that caused this issue, and asked Sigma to update the bot. If there are more problems, let us know. — The Earwig (talk) 06:43, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
108.167.78.36
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Could I get a bot or an admin (if there is a tool for that) to do a "mass revert" of this user's edits, please? They are all vandalism, as they have now been blocked 4 seperate times for "vandalism" and "disruptive editing". Their edits, though, remain due to just how many of them there are. Some admin or bot assistance would be greatly appreciated. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 06:43 on May 14, 2021 (UTC)
- OK, I'm placing a lot of trust in you, Neutralhomer! I haven't looked at all the edits, obviously, but I have now rolled back all the ones that were the last in the histories (there's a tool for that), thereby seriously bloating my own contribs history. Bishonen | tålk 09:06, 14 May 2021 (UTC).
- @Bishonen: I appreciate that trust, I wouldn't have asked for something this major without just cause and a LOT of research on my end. I understand the pain in the butt that caused you and I appreciate your help. :) Thanks! - Neutralhomer • Talk • 09:11 on May 14, 2021 (UTC)
- @Neutralhomer and Bishonen: While a good number of edits were little more than link additions, some of the edits were legitimate, like XHFL-FM (Guanajuato) where the listed URL was replaced with the current one or KXPM-LP where the reliable source cited notes the station mostly airs Relevant Radio programs. Much more sifting through is needed, and I have already had to restore several reversions. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 17:33, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Hi, Sammi Brie. See, I was worried this would happen. Still, on balance, considering the number of blocks for vandalism the IP has — most recently, a three-month block — and also considering Neutralhomer's research, the most realistic option seemed to be to use the mass rollback script. I've seen your reverts — I get notifications for them — and I was just thinking of posting on your page, to thank you for taking care of the no-good reverts you found, and to discuss the situation generally. Bishonen | tålk 18:41, 14 May 2021 (UTC).
- A lot of them removed very useful information from the pages, for example (the former broke code within the page the user didn't bother fixing). Most made no sense, like here where the anon left the branding in the lede (almost standard in most radio station pages) and would remove them from many other pages. While I'll concede that there may have been a dozen (maybe!) legit edits, the vandalism edits far outweighed anything legit the user added to the project since they got into this editing spree of theirs back in December 2020. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 05:58 on May 15, 2021 (UTC)
- I know I may be affiliated with 108.167.78.36, but I do somewhat agree with Sammie Brie’s point. I know it may look like vandalism when actually it is improving the pages so they look the same as all of the other radio station pages. So I do notice some red flags showing that some of the pages are inaccurate again. Some of the edits are updates on station formats when they change when I don’t see 24.116.55.139 or whoever else making the change at the time. Some of these edits are from the information of the FCC websites and updating the technical information which now includes the frequency pages of the stations on that frequency from edits provided by DJV11181988. 16:03, 16 May 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:a601:adbb:e200:955:ecc7:9433:9750 (talk)
- Well, per this and this, the above edit from 2605:A601:ADBB:E200:955:ECC7:9433:9750 is a self-admitted sock of 108.167.78.36. Just mad that they got blocked, for the fourth time, by an admin for vandalism, and their edits all reverted. Block evasion isn't the way to go about this. Any comments could be made in the form of a unblock request on their original talk page.
- But the unblock request would have to be about how they won't vandalize the project. This user is talking about how things are "inaccurate" and there are "red flags" and things need "change[d]". That's what got them blocked in the first place....for vandalism. They don't seem to understand that this is the behavior that needs to be curtailed.
- Regardless though, breaking block, using a sock, and doing what they are doing will just drag out the original block time, plus add a block to this sock account, which I am requesting. Until the user understands this is something they can not do and "red flags" and "change[s]" are things that got them in trouble in the first place, them editing here isn't a viable option. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 19:23, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- Scratch the block request. I did request one via Izno (though I wasn't sure if he was available, hence my request here), but he did block the user for 3 months. Which is fine with me. He did, however, bring to my attention, that the anon user has been using this IPv6 range to circumvent their blocks for awhile now. A CU may be needed to check for further sockpuppets and sleepers. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 19:34, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- Regardless though, breaking block, using a sock, and doing what they are doing will just drag out the original block time, plus add a block to this sock account, which I am requesting. Until the user understands this is something they can not do and "red flags" and "change[s]" are things that got them in trouble in the first place, them editing here isn't a viable option. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 19:23, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Betty Boop, Helen Kane, and Baby Esther
Users blanking information at Betty Boop
A user [[139]] is blanking Reliably Sourced information from the article Betty Boop, and then refusing to explain why on the discussion page. Edits here [140] and [141]. He/she even threatened to report me for adding Reliably Sourced informetion from Time Magazine. Attempt at discussion page here.. [142]. 197.87.63.222 (talk) 07:12, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- My reply to the IP is here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:19, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Since User:MarnetteD has been involved with this IP's behavior for as long as I have, I will be notifying them of these threads. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:22, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I've been trying to post this for minutes now, but keep getting conflict.
- It is curious that this editor User:BeyondmyKen had no problem with the Baby Esther article as it was as of September 2020. [143]. Compare that version to the most recent.. [144] We see in Nov 2020 an unverified photo, whereas now there is a verified one. We see in Nov 2020 that even the dates of Esther's active career were wrong, by years. And we see blatant UNSOURCED claims such as While Kane never publicly admitted her borrowing, Jones' style—as imitated by Kane—went on to become the inspiration for the voice of the cartoon character Betty Boop and Esther was thus recognized as the original scat-singer who inspired Helen Kane to scat-sing. . How about One of the main reasons Baby Esther is not remembered is because she was never a feature attraction in Cab Calloway's New York club; and In addition to adducing Baby Esther's performances, That's all BLATANT OR and totally unsourced. Yet, that's what BeyondMyKen wants.
- AN/I is not a place where content disputes are settled - article talk pages are where that happens. AN/I is for behavioral problems. You have reported my behavior -- and I have given my explanation for it -- and I have reported your disruptive behavior across the three articles involved. Others will chime in with their opinions, and, if they decide a sanction needs to be be levied (I have asked for you to be topic banned from the three articles, I'm not sure what action you're looking for, since you don't state one) an admin will do so. In the meantime, some editors may comment on the content dispute, but that's not the purpose of this board. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:05, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- The content dispute led to the "behaviour". As noted above, the article was a mess, full of UNSOURCED MATERIAL, OUTRIGHT LIES, and worse. So, finally someone comes along, and tries to make three articles more worthy of being on Wikipedia. At which point, people who wanted the articles in their unsourced, fabricated, synthesis manner then started accusing the editor who was tryng to IMPROVE the articles of "disruptive behaviour".
Is the editor trying to add reliable sources, and remove unsourced attack content "disruptive"? OR is the person REMOVING sourced material, and adding unsourced material the "disruptive" one?
- Oh, I forgot the best one of all. Blatantly lying about what a [[[WP:RS]] actually said.
- This all seems to go back to Robert O'Meally and his book Uptown Conversation: The New Jazz Studies (2004).
The person who created this article(Baby Esther) only used O'Meally as a supposed "source". [147]
The phrase "Jazz studies scholar Robert O'Meally has referred to Jones as 'Betty Boop's black grandmother.'" was on that article until November 2020.
--- But what did Robert O'Meally ACTUALLY say"
From Page 290 of Uptown Conversation:
The climax of the case (a further Ellisonian twist) came when the court viewed archival film brought in by the defense - footage shot in the early days of sound, featuring yet another singer, this time a black cabaret artist billed as Baby Esther, who on film performed a song that contained the heavily debated phrase "boop-boop-a-doop". The Fleischers' lawyers further surprised the court with testimony from Baby Esther's manager, Lou Walton, claiming that Helen Kane and her manager had heard Baby Esther sing in a cabaret in 1928. The point of course was that even if the Fleischers' singer(s) had copied Kane to create Betty Boop, Kane herself, if the evidence could be believed56, was an imitation of black Baby Esther.57 In other words, Boop herself was an imitation of an imitation and had, as it were, a black grandmother in the background.58
Nice, isn't it? But what was that "if the evidence could be believed"? Editors like Beyondmyken never quoted THAT, did she? Let's see what Robert O'Meally says under those references at the book. After all, he wouldn't put that there, if it wasn't important, would he? And what about # 57 and # 58? Let us turn to Page 295 of the exact same book, by the exact same author.
56. Cabarga, The Fleischer Story makes clear that this evidence might very well have been cooked up by the Fleischers to discredit Kane, whom they later admitted to have been their model for Betty Boop. 57. See Klaus Strateman's Louis Armstrong on the Screen (Copenhagen:JazzMedia 1996), pp. 17-26. 58. One can only wonder if there was some sort of sideline deal with Mr Walton. Was Miss Esther paid for her presumed loss of revenue?
In other words, the article stated pretty much the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the RS actually stated. Beyondmyken BLATANTLY LIED AND MISREPRESENTED a WP:RS. It wasn't until I quoted O'Meally correctly that the article reflected the truth, at which point Beyondmyken(and others) started attacking me. For correctly quoting O'Meally, rather than lying about what he had written. 197.87.63.222 (talk) 08:10, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Comment (my last) Those of you who do not wish to go through the diffs and links I posted below of the IP's ranting style just got a good sample of it. Even after being told that this is not the place to discuss content, they spout the above, a very good example of what editors on the talk pages of the three articles have been putting up with since September 2020. I think it's quite obvious that this IP is never going to be able to deal with this subject rationally, calmly, judiciously, and fairly, they will always push their point of view. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:19, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Simple question: Why did you have NO problem with outright lies, and complete misrepresentations of of RS, for what seems to be eyars, but are now accusing people of being "disruptive" for ADDING RS, and attempting to remove unsourced material? 197.87.63.222 (talk) 08:21, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Hilarious... the same person who wrote "e, a very good example of what editors on the talk pages of the three articles have been putting up with since September 2020. I think it's quite obvious that this IP is never going to be able to deal with this subject rationally, calmly, judiciously, and fairly, they will always push their point of view." ALSO wrote " but you simply cannot keep attempting to skew the articles in order to have them show that Helen Kane was the precursor to Betty Boop,"
See? Yet, guess who got blocked? Byebye. 197.87.63.222 (talk) 09:29, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
User:197.87.63.222
Some old controversies just never die down. This seems to be one of them: the influence (or lack of influence) of the entertainer Baby Esther on Helen Kane and Betty Boop. There was a lawsuit about it in 1932 when Kane sued the Fleischer Studios and the defendants brought up Baby Esther.
The IP editor 197.87.63.222 has been arguing on the talk pages of these articles since September November 2020 that Baby Esther had no influence on Kane. Their position is very pro-Kane and very anti-Esther. They've made these arguments on the talk pages of all three articles, but has never convinced anyone - there has never been anything even close to a scintilla of a consensus for the IP's PoV, yet the IP continues to attempt to skew the articles to his personal PoV.
It's time for this to stop. The IP needs to be topic banned from Boop, Kane and Esther and any related subjects. I have no idea if their editing in other areas is problematic, but in this subject area it most certainly is. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:15, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- interjection, and my last post here. This person is forcing the idea that "Baby Esther" DID influence Kane. The one source he/she used ,(O'Meally) states that that was NOT the case. And he/she blanked a RS from a 1934 Time Magazine, because it makes his/her claim of "Baby Esther influencing Helen Kane" a chronological impossibility. He/she also makes the Kane vs Fleischer trial all about Esther, when other factors like Gertrude Saunders, Louis Armstrong etc. were far more decisive. 197.87.63.222 (talk) 13:41, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Well, I see he got here first by three minutes. I'll combine the two sections. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:16, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- IP has been notified. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:21, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- The IP's PoV argumentation:
- Talk:Baby Esther: [148], from "Article is a lot of hot air" (September 2020) through to the bottom of the page, 15 threads, about 11,000 words. Section titles include "Misunderstanding the judge's verdict", "Plagiarism?", "Is this even Wiki-worthy?", "An odd string of coincidences...or garbage?", all of which are to the point that their PoV is the only possibly correct one.
- Talk:Helen Kane: [149]
- Talk:Betty Boop/Archive 1: [150] Start here, with the first collapsed section
because the IP was using socks after being blockedcollapsed because the IP was suspected of being a sock, and continue to the end of the page, 4 threads, same arguments. - Talk:Betty Boop#The Kane vs Fleischer section
- Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:47, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- The thing to note is that the IP spouts on and on and on, and never achieves a consensus. In fact, after a while, their ranting is just ignored. Nevertheless, the IP edits as if they have a consensus. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:49, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- The IP's PoV argumentation:
- IP has been notified. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:21, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- But how is ANY of that relevant to you blanking RELIABLY SOURCED information from a contemporaneous Time Magazine? And, do you stand by the Baby Esther article as it was in November 2020? 197.87.63.222 (talk) 07:51, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- have already explained that a number of times: the information is about Helen Kane and you're attempting to add it to an article about Betty Boop. It's WP:UNDUE. Three editors have now reverted your addition, doesn't that suggest to you that you do not have the consensus necessary to add it? Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:59, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- But how is ANY of that relevant to you blanking RELIABLY SOURCED information from a contemporaneous Time Magazine? And, do you stand by the Baby Esther article as it was in November 2020? 197.87.63.222 (talk) 07:51, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- It's about Helen Kane in the context of the Betty Boop trial. By your logic, we can remove any information that's not directly about Betty Boop from the same section then. And I put it in the "Kane vs Fleishcer" paragraph of the Betty Boop article. You have exposed yourself as trying to push a POV now. 197.87.63.222 (talk) 08:03, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Don't be absurd, the trial is obviously relevant. The question is how much material on the trial should be in the article, and what kind. It's clear that you want the Time material to be in because it strengthens the hypothesis that Kane was the major influence on the invention of Betty Boop, and, in fact, in order to do that you're cherry-picking facts from the Time article that emphasize points of similarity between them.I understand that you feel strongly about this issue, but you simply cannot keep attempting to skew the articles in order to have them show that Helen Kane was the precursor to Betty Boop, and that Baby Esther was irrelevant. That's your personal viewpoint, which you're allowed to have, but you're not allowed to edit Wikipedia in such a way as to have our articles represent you views. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:12, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- It's about Helen Kane in the context of the Betty Boop trial. By your logic, we can remove any information that's not directly about Betty Boop from the same section then. And I put it in the "Kane vs Fleishcer" paragraph of the Betty Boop article. You have exposed yourself as trying to push a POV now. 197.87.63.222 (talk) 08:03, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- That's YOUR POV. You can add what you want from that article too. It';s Time Magazine. You are the one cherry-picking (and as shown elsewhere, blatantly lying about what RS actually state). 197.87.63.222 (talk) 08:15, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- YOU are the one skewing it. The articles have all been skewed for years. 197.87.63.222 (talk) 08:16, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- and we see the REALITY.
"I understand that you feel strongly about this issue, but you simply cannot keep attempting to skew the articles in order to have them show that Helen Kane was the precursor to Betty Boop, and that Baby Esther was irrelevant. That's your personal viewpoint, which you're allowed to have, but you're not allowed to edit Wikipedia in such a way as to have our articles represent you views. "
So, I am attempting to "skew" something "To show that Helen Kane was the precursor to Betty Boop". Well, I'll just quote Professor Robert O'Meally, on page 295 of his book "Uptown Conversation":
" Cabarga, The Fleischer Story makes clear that this evidence might very well have been cooked up by the Fleischers to discredit Kane, whom they later admitted to have been their model for Betty Boop."
That's not me "skewing", that's what a respected sholar says.
As for "and that Baby Esther was irrelevant". We;;, if Esther was relevant, I'm sure Beyondmyken, or someone else, will happily quote from Judge McGoldrick's ruling where he mentions Esther as part of his ruling. Oh, wait, he never mentioned Esther in his ruling.
And, as stated, this article was created out of whole cloth in 2014. EVERYTHING it said there was a lie. Everything.
Now, have I been a bit emotional in what I have said on discussion pages? Yes. Have I made disruptive edits? No. Have I quoted what RS says, sometimes even being accused of "plagiarism" for writing EXACTLY what the Rs actually state? Yes. Has Beyondmyken now exposed him/herself as the one "skewing the article"? Yes.
Simply, it is NOT disruptive to quote from RS to improve articles. sadly for Beyondmyken, the RS showed that what he/she has been pushing for years, even deliberately misquoting sources(such as O'Meally) is not backed up the actual RS. 197.87.63.222 (talk) 08:28, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Boomerang. But it is disruptive to edit war against several users, and to ignore consensus on talkpages. I have blocked 197.87.63.222 from Betty Boop and Baby Esther for 6 months. They have not edited Helen Kane recently, but if the disruption should move there, the block can, too. I note the same person has edited as 197.89.10.25 and 197.87.63.7 on the same articles — a huge range — so the articles may need to be temporarily semiprotected if this continues. Note also 197.87.63.222's previous block log. (The other IPs I mention have been blocked before also). Bishonen | tålk 08:55, 14 May 2021 (UTC).
- For removing unsourced material, for adding sourced material, for removing possible libelous material? And you haven't blocked Beyondmyken? So, he/she can go right back and turn those articles into misinformation, lies, and blatant POV-pushing?
So, I'm getting blocked for trying to improve articles, whereas the people blanking RS, adding blatant mistruths, and lying about what RS actually say are being left untouched? HOW was I the disruptive one? And, if true, how was I the only disruptive one? 197.87.63.222 (talk) 09:01, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- (Personal attack removed)
- We can always extend the block if you're simply going to be abusive? Black Kite (talk) 09:53, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- How was that a "personal attack" or "abusive"? If 1 person is trying to source information, remove unsourced material, and repeatedly creating new threads on the discussion pages to discuss article content....while another user ignores the discussion pages, blanket reverts without discussion, removes RS material, threatens rather than discusses, and lies about what a RS says, to push his/her agenda, then who is the disruptive one? But what if more than one person does what the latter user does? Does numerical superiority then give free reign to ignoring discussions, adding unsourced material, and removing sourced material, just because there is a very slim numerical advantage? 197.87.63.222 (talk) 10:11, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- and note his/her original comment. That I'm "very pro-Kane and very anti-Esther". Nope. I was adding NPOV RS, and Beyondmyken didn't like what they said. Period. So who was skewing articles? I just say, look at what they were like(Beyondmyken's preferred versions) before I started trying to edit them, compared to now. Is that "disruptive"? Who was the one who exposed the BLATANT LIE about what respected scholar Robert O'Meally said? Me. How was it alright for a Wikipedia article to outright fabricate "evidence" from an esteemed scholar, and falsely claim he wrote something that he never wrote? And how is correcting that being "disruptive"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.87.63.222 (talk) 10:23, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I've issued a PA warning to 197.87.63.222 - this isn't a war that must be won at all costs. Acroterion (talk) 13:01, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Nobody said it was. I was just asking why trying to Reliably Source material, trying to correct unsourced material, and starting threads on discussion pages is "disruptive". That's not a personal attack. All I want is a clear, straight answer. Is it a personal attack to want something to be explained? 197.87.63.222 (talk) 13:06, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I just want to note that being "Reliably Sourced" is a necessary but not sufficient condition to adding text to an article. When adding new information, the new information needs BOTH be reliably sourced and there needs to be consensus that the new information is relevant and proper to add to the article. You seem to be running into problems with the second part. If you've reached an impasse, invite some uninvolved editors to look into the situation. We've got a dozen or so various noticeboards where you can ask for outside opinions, WP:DR is thataway. WP:BLUDGEONing talk pages and repeatedly trying to force a contested change into an article is not a productive way to move beyond an impasse. --Jayron32 13:48, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Nobody said it was. I was just asking why trying to Reliably Source material, trying to correct unsourced material, and starting threads on discussion pages is "disruptive". That's not a personal attack. All I want is a clear, straight answer. Is it a personal attack to want something to be explained? 197.87.63.222 (talk) 13:06, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- If you beleive you can skirt a PA block by just saying "other editors" are lying, you're mistaken. Acroterion (talk) 13:17, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I have no idea what you're talking about. I demonstrated that people had been inserting false/fabricated "facts" into articles to force a pov. That is beyond dispute. Compare O'Meally's real quote to what the article used to say he said. The problem is that both Beyondmyken and MarnetteD started reverting any similar edits I made, so I was accused of efit-warring. The articles as they stand now have been tidied up substantially. Yet the latest efit war concerns a Time Magazine article from 1934 that other editors didn't like. Read Beyondmyken's first post on this very dispute to find out why. 197.87.63.222 (talk) 13:25, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'll spell it out for you: claims that other editors are willfully adding false information to articles is a personal attack. The content dispute is over, so continuing to repeat those assertions will get you blocked from editing for personal attacks. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 16:18, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I have no idea what you're talking about. I demonstrated that people had been inserting false/fabricated "facts" into articles to force a pov. That is beyond dispute. Compare O'Meally's real quote to what the article used to say he said. The problem is that both Beyondmyken and MarnetteD started reverting any similar edits I made, so I was accused of efit-warring. The articles as they stand now have been tidied up substantially. Yet the latest efit war concerns a Time Magazine article from 1934 that other editors didn't like. Read Beyondmyken's first post on this very dispute to find out why. 197.87.63.222 (talk) 13:25, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Bishonen, Acroterion, and Black Kite: Posted today on Talk:Helen Kane: [151]
- "I proved that they [i.e. myself and MarnetteD] blatantly misrepresented what O'Meally said."
- "They [i.e. me] outright lie about what actual sources say..."
- Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:11, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- IP blocked for a week, for personal attacks after clear warnings that omitting a specific name from the sentence in which they attack other editors doesn't confer immunity to sanctions. When the block has expired, we'll need to reinstate the partial block, assuming the site block doesn't get extended. Acroterion (talk) 20:45, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:18, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- IP blocked for a week, for personal attacks after clear warnings that omitting a specific name from the sentence in which they attack other editors doesn't confer immunity to sanctions. When the block has expired, we'll need to reinstate the partial block, assuming the site block doesn't get extended. Acroterion (talk) 20:45, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
New user, claims to be an old user, blanking loads of stuff
Gal00n20honm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a new account, claims on userpage to be an old user, is blanking loads of stuff, including threads on this page. DuncanHill (talk) 09:17, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Same editor as User:Robeca5020 from a few days ago. Probably some well-known vandal, no idea if they can be stopped by some edit filter or similar? Fram (talk) 09:21, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
This certainly, and perhaps the accompanying here, needs to be revdeled as well? Fram (talk) 09:26, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Looks like a sock of Sunholm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Have reported to SPI. DuncanHill (talk) 09:28, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
In fact, all their edits need checking for revdel for hoax claims reasons and for spamming of some sites in the edit summaries, and per WP:DENY. Fram (talk) 09:30, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Blocked indef for the time being. Black Kite (talk) 09:34, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Blakecowrie0389 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is another. DuncanHill (talk) 09:53, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Confirmed:
- Robeca5020 (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- Blakecowrie0389 (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- Gal00n20honm (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- Galvingonw0 (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- I'll check out the SPI in a bit. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 11:49, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Editor ignoring WP:MEDRS
Hi everyone. PeterSweden has been repeatedly ignoring WP:MEDRS at Peter Daszak. In the article lede the subject is described as He is a researcher, consultant, and public expert in the cause and spread of zoonotic disease outbreaks like that of COVID-19
. PeterSweden has been continuously reinserting the word "contested" citing two non-WP:MEDRS sources. On top of this, they have been uncivil. Relevant diffs:
- I reverted their change explaining "researchgate.net is not a reliable source for medical claims. See WP:MEDRS.": [152]
- They re-insert their change, adding another non-WP:MEDRS source, accusing me of "censorship, restriction of freedom of speech and manipulation": [153].
- I reverted them again [154] and posted to their Talk page making them aware of WP:AGF and further explained the importance of WP:MEDRS.
- They have not responded on their Talk page. Instead, they have again re-inserted their changes: [155].
A new editor, they haven't edited any articles other than Peter Daszak. They seem to be unwilling to engage in a reasonable discussion and more like a WP:NOTHERE WP:SPA interested in righting great wrongs. Robby.is.on (talk) 10:01, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- How does WP:MEDRS apply to people when it is designed to apply to biomedical information? With that said, crying censorship is never a good thing and those sources need to be WP:RS, not WP:MEDRS in my opinion. spryde | talk 14:47, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Whether COVID-19 is zoonotic or not (or contested) is biomedical information, whatever article it is in, so is subject to WP:MEDRS. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:07, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Are the editors willing to close this ANI and discuss at DRN, or should I close the DRN thread? McClenon mobile (talk) 21:32, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- One editor has filed this WP:ANI thread, while the other editor has requested content dispute resolution at DRN. DRN will not handle a case that is also pending anywhere else. It would be better for the editors to treat this as a content dispute, because no one gets blocked or topic-banned at DRN. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:06, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Nah, this is just another SPA in the COVID area who is likely NOTHERE. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:13, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Whether COVID-19 is zoonotic or not (or contested) is biomedical information, whatever article it is in, so is subject to WP:MEDRS. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:07, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Temp block of User:Quantupediholic
I've temporarily blocked Quantupediholic following an out of character edit by in which they dumped several megabytes of signature text into that page together with an intemperate edit comment. They seem to have been a constructive editor until this edit, so I've only blocked them for a short time, with a request for clarification on their talk page. I'm wondering if this might be an account compromise? -- The Anome (talk) 12:27, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- The Anome Should've asked the user first what was going on before you made the block, and the edit you are talking about I assume was the one made at Wikipedia talk:Sandbox. That's a test page which was going to be reset by a bot anyway. Even though the block is short, I think it was the wrong action to take. Jerm (talk) 14:22, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Just want add that a ANI notice needs to be sent out once you file a report, even if you did ping them. I've sent one to Quantupediholic. Jerm (talk) 14:47, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- My mobile phone froze for 2 minutes when I tried open that diff. One of the LTAs has a habit of spamming extremely large edits to the Sandbox, so I won't blame The Anome in this case for thinking something is fishy. ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ (talk) 14:51, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I've just discussed it with Quantupediholic, explaining why I made the block. It doesn't look like they've lost control of their account, so I've unblocked them now. -- The Anome (talk) 15:19, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Jerm: Thank you; apologies for forgetting to do it. -- The Anome (talk) 15:25, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- My mobile phone froze for 2 minutes when I tried open that diff. One of the LTAs has a habit of spamming extremely large edits to the Sandbox, so I won't blame The Anome in this case for thinking something is fishy. ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ (talk) 14:51, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- If the problem was that the large edit might've potentially rendered the sandbox page inaccessible to some, the way to go was to politely explain it to the user; blocking him/her was unnecessary. @The Anome: "discussed with editor" isn't good enough; reading Quantupediholic's block log right now gives one the false impression that the block was justified even though it was anything but, and I suggest that you fix it to prevent your rash actions from eroding the editor's morale any further. Iaritmioawp (talk) 02:46, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
User:KrishnaVastav
KrishnaVastav (talk · contribs · count) – Continuous disruptive editing on a mass scale (over 90 articles and counting). Keeps sticking "Delhi NCR" everywhere or other location-focused nonsense. Warnings left unheeded, including level-4 warnings. Does not engage in discussion. Temporary block requested. — kashmīrī TALK 12:43, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- He/she always leaves the edit summary "added content" irrespective of what he/she did. For example, 07:40, 14 May 2021 to Delhi Metro where he/she deleted wikilinks and added a mistake to the punctuation. As far as I can see, the only point to his/her edits is an attempt to build up an edit history in the hopes of becoming as extended confirmed user.-- Toddy1 (talk) 13:55, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
user:TrangaBellam
TrangaBellam (talk · contribs) slapped a deletion notice on Tripura Buranji ([156]) and when enough references and citations were provided, he has been deleting them ([157]). He wants to "talk" and wants to police the article. I have asked him not to remove texts ([158]). It is also strange that he has slapped a notice on me for edit warring[159], even as he is the other party disputing my edits.[160]. Chaipau (talk) 13:23, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I hope that the administrators will discount this report as frivolous. The author, to prove the notability of the article, has been misrepresenting sources and is not engaging with me on the article talk-page despite multiple requests. I did not delete a single reference but edited the text to comply with WP:INTEGRITY. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:29, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I don't know who is right here, but this really just looks like a very young content dispute. I agree with TrangaBellam that you should continue discussion at the talk page, and I'm not sure what Chaipau means when they put "talk" in scare quotes. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 14:32, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- This is not a frivolous charge. TrangaBellam's cycle of engagement indicates he is not engaging in good faith and is being disruptive.
- He flags article for deletion [161] with the note that it lacks notability.
- I added references for notability[162]
- I then removed the tag for deletion[163], according to the second step of the PROD process, which says:
If anybody objects to the deletion (usually by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} tag—see full instructions below), the proposal is aborted and may not be re-proposed.
. The reason being that notability has been established. - TrangaBellam nominates page for deletion[164].
- I continue to improve article[165]
- TrangalBellam stands guard, removing referenced and cited texts, along with citations, for improving the article.[166], [167], [168]
- TrangalBellam now clearly having reverted a number of my edits, notifies me against edit warring and warns me that I may be blocked![169]
- This is disruptive behavior that needs to be checked. Instead of improving the article, the TrangalBellam seems to be pushing a point of view, displaying WP:OWN, and anointed himself as the gatekeeper. This behavior needs to be checked.
- Chaipau (talk) 14:43, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Firefangledfeathers: By "talk", I mean that TrangalBellam is trying to be a gatekeeper here, even as he is pushing to have the article deleted. A gatekeeper more in in the 3O tradition is more appropriate. Surely, he is in the right to verify the citations. But reverting and then calling for a "talk" (aka "proposal for change") is ludicrous. He made his objection later and his objections have been addressed[170]. Chaipau (talk) 14:55, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- This is not a frivolous charge. TrangaBellam's cycle of engagement indicates he is not engaging in good faith and is being disruptive.
- Comment - We are all gate-keepers here. I am afraid you just need to roll up your sleeves and engage in good-faith discussion. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:03, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I am not user Chaipau but User Trangabellam really is far from constructive edit on articles if he did not like certain lines or topic he will act like a police use wikipedia existing laws like a weapon and will delete the article or the section, citing it lack wp:CNG will delete even book source saying its unreliable, he seem to nitpick everything based on his preference, here are some of article he delated recently without any discussion, he even took mythological dieties should satisfy publishing from journal. see this big content deletions [171] [172] [173] [174] 🐲 ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯪ ꯋꯥ ꯍꯥꯏꯐꯝ (talk) 17:18, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I will just point out that User:Luwanglinux was recently blocked by an administrator for a week, based on my (and User:Kautilya3's) complaint at a noticeboard. TrangaBellam (talk) 17:23, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- You and kautilya even lobbied [175]to that admin when the admin told me not to revert article again and I did not revert article but you were saying something like this creation of articlePuya Meithaba ( Burning of Puya ) is also an indirect edit war, I am really amazed by the way you and Kautilya took the effort to block me. Admin Edjohnston did not reply yet when I asked if I really violate rule revert article or edit war after discussion.[176]🐲 ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯪ ꯋꯥ ꯍꯥꯏꯐꯝ (talk) 18:05, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I will just point out that User:Luwanglinux was recently blocked by an administrator for a week, based on my (and User:Kautilya3's) complaint at a noticeboard. TrangaBellam (talk) 17:23, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Cheryl Fullerton
Cheryl Fullerton (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
Cheryl has mainly been focused on editing Craig Chaquico and Jefferson Starship, and caused various disputes, which I summarised in this thread. Since then, we've tried to resolve things, including a COI noticeboard thread. To cut a long story short, we can't prove Cheryl has a COI with Craig Chaquico, but there seems to be continual disruption, ignoring other people's advice, and just trying to insert a POV into these articles that I can't see anyone else wants.
I have said before that Cheryl is civil and polite and has tried to learn policies and guidelines, but she has taken up so much administrator time now, than I think our collective patience has run out and we need to do something else. So I am proposing that Cheryl Fullerton is topic banned from Craig Chaquico, broadly construed. Discuss. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:42, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Support as proposer. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:42, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Support as I stated at the COIN discussion, I just am not seeing CF as being able to edit neutrally surrounding Craig Chaquico, and based on her interactions with other editors at various talks and noticeboards, I think Ritchie is quite right. Enough is enough. This has been a time sink for too many editors at too many articles surrounding Chaquico for four years now. —valereee (talk) 14:53, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Support topic ban. This has gone on way too long, and it is crystal clear that Cheryl Fullerton is 100% devoted to inserting Craig Chaquico's idiosyncratic view of the history of Jefferson Starship into Wikipedia articles, instead of neutrally summarizing what reliable independent sources say. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 15:24, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Support because the time and patience of constructive editors is Wikipedia's most precious resource and Cheryl Fullerton is squandering that resource. I noticed in particular Ritchie333 writing at the COI noticeboard yesterday that he
"ended up dropping out of the discussion through sheer exhaustion"
.[177] I've never noticed Ritchie being particularly prone to exhaustion, and he could have used the same amount of Wikipedia time and energy for so many much better things. It's totally unacceptable to wear out editors through sheer stubbornness and bludgeoning. Bishonen | tålk 15:28, 14 May 2021 (UTC). - Support. I missed the recent COIN discussion but I already knew from contending with her in 2017 that Cheryl Fullerton is here only to promote Chaquico. Before Fullerton was PilotRock61 in 2015 who signed as Chaquico's "artist manager"[178] "Dara Crockett".[179] Cheryl Fullerton has been active at Commons uploading a bunch of photos taken by Dara Crockett, and citing a book by Crockett and spouse, so it appears Fullerton has been hired as an assistant to Crockett. At any rate, both of these people worked very hard to represent Chaquico's point of view which is not the way he has been described by independent sources. Classic WP:NOTHERE. Binksternet (talk) 22:45, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Support the proposal. I’ve been banging my head against this wall for four years regarding Jefferson Starship. I feel like it’s taken up all my available editing time. I think this is the best course of action. AbleGus (talk) 04:51, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- Support It doesn't natter exactly why this person is acting like this, it is clear that lesser measures have been tried and have had basically no affect. A tban is a way to try and keep the editor while getting rid of the disruption, I hope they come to understand that. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:01, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- Not to closer: Cheryl Fullerton has indicated she wants to respond. —valereee (talk) 11:32, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Three rollbacks reverts suffered
1 2 and 3 This despite the fact that twice in the comments I had tried to explain to the user in question that the community has not yet decided that he was right to eliminate my choice of a different headercolor for the athlete's infobox and that indeed a discussion at the project had been, some time ago, opened by me to explain the reasons for my choice to use a common headercolor for a certain category of female athletes. Notified on the user's talk page. --Kasper2006 (talk) 15:36, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- "indeed a discussion at the project had been, some time ago" - Really? What discussion? And why are you insisting on enforcing gender stereotypes on WP? Is it always pink for girls and blue for boys? What other views on women do you have? And you're not even consistent in applying this ill-though out idea across other articles. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 16:10, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Lugnuts you see, the problem is not whether my idea is right or not, but the attitude of those do rollbacks without giving explanations (you did even rollback my ANI notice on your talk page, maybe because there were too many?) --Kasper2006 (talk) 16:23, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Uninvolved non-admin: Since we're evaluating everyone's behavior, Kasper2006, you also have a habit of not including edit summaries. After a couple of reverts, you started using edit summaries not to justify/explain your edits but simply to say that there aren't any guidelines against it. Lugnuts, since Kasper2006's edits are not "obvious vandalism", do you think it's fair to ask that you provide edit summaries when you revert? I know that this isn't the place for content disputes, but could someone direct me to the best place to build a consensus that these kinds of edits should never happen and that work can begin on undoing them all? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 16:54, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Lugnuts, please start using edit summaries and answering queries on your talk page when you've reverted someone. —valereee (talk) 17:20, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Unless a conversation has run its course, or in cases such as Kasper who are trying to WP:BAIT me, I always do. Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 17:32, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Lugnuts you see, the problem is not whether my idea is right or not, but the attitude of those do rollbacks without giving explanations (you did even rollback my ANI notice on your talk page, maybe because there were too many?) --Kasper2006 (talk) 16:23, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- So you're arguing that "a certain category" of female athlete should have a pink background? My kneejerk reaction is that's mildly offensive on its face, but if you're arguing there's a discussion supporting that, you should provide a link. —valereee (talk) 16:25, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Valereee: I do not see this intention in fact, it is a completely innocent thing ... a simple distinction of gender which among other things, as you know exists in athletics competitions (men do not compete with women) and the utility 'user of Wikipedia is to see immediately from the infobox if those records, those results are male or female, among other things it is since 2012 that I assign this headercolor to female Italian athletes. I give you two links, one when I reported the thing to the project and the second when I asked the Lugnuts user for explanations for his systematic rollbacks. Explanations that obviously I have not had. --Kasper2006 (talk) 16:40, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, the header is misleading. There has been no use of WP:ROLLBACK, a user right that can be revoked if misused, but just the undo button (without a edit summary), which every editor has.-- P-K3 (talk) 16:59, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- This was the last time that Kasper accused me of wrong-doings. In this case he was making sweeping statements about people's ethnicity/language spoken. That's why I pretty much ignore this user. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 17:46, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- There may be a language issue here. Kasper2006, are you aware that a "rollback" is a particular kind of revert, done with a special tool, that generally is used for vandalism and other bad-faith edits? If an editor is abusing rollback, they can lose their right to use the tool. That's why editors mentioned both here and at the previous complaint by you about Lugnuts that they hadn't actually rollbacked your edits but had instead reverted them. —valereee (talk) 18:22, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Kasper2006, you've been here long enough to know that it is the responsibility of the person making the change to get consensus for the change if it is challenged. You were bold on that article and changed the colour to pink, it was reverted, but you didn't take it to the talk page you instead just reverted again thereby starting an edit war. And the thread you link to above about making the header pink for female athletes (like seriously?) is quite clear that everyone who responded was against it. You're the one operating out of consensus and you're the one edit warring. Should Lugnuts have used an edit summary and not continued to edit war, most certainly, but you are the one who introduced the change so the onus is on your to take it to talk if you wish to continue to push for the change. Either way, it's quite obvious that making the headers in a female athlete's infobox pink is not supported by the community and would be an incredibly bad look for Wikipedia promoting outdated sexist attitudes and inappropriate colour gendering. Canterbury Tail talk 18:18, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- To be fair, all those responses were made in the last hour or so. —valereee (talk) 18:24, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Doh!!!!! Yes you're quite right, I should have spotted that. Sincerer apologies on that front. Canterbury Tail talk 18:32, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Canterbury Tail: Oh finally! After 10 years I pointed this out to you, even I didn't like it, but once I started I wanted to standardize. Ok from tomorrow, now it's night here, I'll get to work to return to the default color. I am quite a self-critical subject and I accept defeat, because, as I explained, I didn't like changing the color either. But I don't understand how we can overlook the behavior of Lugnuts, who, as the community knows, is not new to this kind of behavior that is not very respectful of the work of other users, committed as he is to writing the stubs of a million articles. . --Kasper2006 (talk) 20:32, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Lugnuts' reaction was perhaps suboptimal, but it was a reaction to a pattern of gender stereotype that hits the nerve of a lot of Wikipedia editors, mine included. I think this could have been explained better to you, without stereotyping you. On Wikipedia I actually didn't find much beyond List of historical sources for pink and blue as gender signifiers. Yet I think this is not worth pursuing anymore. No sanctions needed, no gender colors needed. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:00, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
The user in question here now has a very substantial sock history at this point, continuing to stalk/harass me across other Wikis.
For reference...
Wikipedia:
Wikimedia Commons:
- Caidin-Johnsohn29912forrest
- Grap e29912
- Forrest29912
- CaidinJohnsohn
- Cadinnn Johhnson
- Caidddin Johhnson
Simple English Wikipedia:
- Zoom29912
Wikidata:
- Mjforrest29912
Wikimedia Meta-Wiki:
- Messiah Forrest
- The Forrest 29912
- Tessssticle keep going up and down up and down - May 17
Wikiquote:
- Mjforrest 448484 - May 17
- Tessssticle keep going up and down up and down - May 17
- Forrestisback29912 - May 17
There may be some others I'm forgetting right now. At this point it seems like there won't be any stop to this. I've now just recently realized I can disable talk page notifications on those other Wikis, so I've turned that off. Other than that, what would the best solution here be? I'm familiar with SPI and stuff but don't really have much knowledge in the LTA area... would an LTA report be justified at this point?... Magitroopa (talk) 16:17, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- Still currently going at it. Anything at all that can be done??? Also updated with the new accounts from today... Magitroopa (talk) 15:23, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
There is some suspicious activity going on at that AFD. The article Gugark pogrom was taken to AFD in December 2020, and was kept. Recently, just a few months after the first AFD, it was nominated for deletion again, by Fractuallity (talk · contribs), which was an account created solely for the purpose of this AFD and which was soon banned for using a sock account to vote for deletion. According to posts there, there's some brigading taking place on forums like reddit (one example: [180]), and there are IPs and new accounts that pop up to cast a vote, mostly to have the article deleted. I would like to ask the admins to check the validity of the new nomination, and also please consider joining the discussion, because decisions on such articles should be made by the wider wiki community, and not by offwiki mobilization that apparently is taking place now. Grandmaster 19:37, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
- I've made a NAC under criteria #2a and #2b of the the criteria for Speedy Keep as a purely disruptive nomination. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:03, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
The definite article
User:Mardus has gotten it into their head that cars (or electronics or other things) with a number in their name do not use the definite article. I.e., they believe that the iPhone 6 does not deserve a "the", nor does the Mercedes 220 or, in the case in question, the GAZ-24. They refer to themselves as an en-3 user but still fully believe that every applicable article on Wikipedia has been grammatically incorrect until they discovered this last week. Please can someone come and weigh in? I just noticed that they started a conversation of sorts HERE, maybe that's the best place to engage. Thank you, Mr.choppers | ✎ 02:10, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I pointed him at a more appropriate venue for that proposal. Why are you at AN/I with this? Dicklyon (talk) 03:33, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry, not sure where to go. RFC? Thanks, Mr.choppers | ✎ 03:36, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- AN/I is for incidents that need an admin intervention, generally. This sounds more like a simple content dispute. Talk to him first. Then look at WP:DR. If an RFC is needed, then yes, do that. Dicklyon (talk) 05:01, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry, not sure where to go. RFC? Thanks, Mr.choppers | ✎ 03:36, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- The Definite Article would be a great name for a Wikipedia newsletter. Levivich harass/hound 06:34, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Standard offer requested by DoctorTexan
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- (Active account) DoctorTexan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · logs · block log · arb · rfc · lta · SPI · cuwiki)
- (Original account) Mmoates (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · logs · block log · arb · rfc · lta · SPI · cuwiki)
DoctorTexan has invoked WP:Standard Offer to request an unblock. See User talk:DoctorTexan#Unblock Req — BillHPike (talk, contribs) 02:45, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I can go so far as to take them at their word that they no longer have the login for the old account. It hasn't been used in some time, and given the number of socks they have used it seems plausible you might loose track of all the passwords. However, this simply is not how clean starts work. You don't get to do a clean start by evading a block. What they should have done is fessed up to their previous accounts with their very first edit and asked for the standard offer. They clearly did not intend to do that, so the standard offer doesn't apply until they go another six months without socking. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:08, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Unblock – Sure, he didn't go at this right, but he seems to be serious about wanting to get back to being a positive contributor to WP. Give them some clear instructions and a chance, not another six-month wait. If they screw up after being unblocked, they'll know another indef will likely follow. Dicklyon (talk) 03:26, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Lean Unblock This user made three edits before I spotted the sock account. A small number of productive edits under a account should not preclude an unblock. See WP:Standard offer#Variations, WP:Ignore all rules and WP:Assume good faith.
- It may be reasonable to impose some WP:Editing restrictions to ensure DoctorTexan remains civil and stays out of edit wars. If DoctorTexan shows a track record of productive contributions, he can ask the community to remove the restrictions. — BillHPike (talk, contribs) 04:08, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Unblock This appears to be a case where we may gain a productive editor, and this editor is showing self-reflection. To state the obvious, a re-block would come quickly if edit warring or incivility resumes. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:45, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose for now I've long believed it's dumb to require editors to make an unblock or unban request from the original account. The important thing is that they deal with their block, including declaring any connection before the resume editing. This editor did not do so. I might have sympathy if this editor had simply received a block 6 months or more ago after a small amount of editing, that they didn't understand or had good reason to think they were entitled to a WP:Clean start. However an editor who thinks they are entitled to a clean start after fairly extensive socking clearly still doesn't understand the basics of editing here. For a similar reason, I do not pay much heed to any self-reflection. Not only did they think it okay to do so, but only a few days ago they spent their time arguing at SPI that it was okay and attacking another editor including making accusations of blackmail [181]. I would note also the irony of claiming you were making a clean start followed by making such personal attacks and now telling Beeblebrox they weren't trying to hide anything since they disclosed it on Wikidata. Maybe they've really finally come to sufficient realisation that what they were doing was wrong that it won't be repeated, maybe not. The point of 6 months is to allow an editor to show the self reflection is genuine, but when the editors actions a few days ago showed they had not yet come to the realisation I'm not going to trust that they have now. The fact that they are lucky and got caught within 3 edits, and that the editor they attacked supports an unblock means I won't count these error if they do demonstrate their self-reflection is genuine and stay away for 6 months, but I don't consider it unreasonable to say they at the moment, it's sufficiently doubtful that DoctorTexan can genuinely be a good contributor here. Nil Einne (talk) 09:56, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I admit I didn't look into the apology thing before now. Now that I did (User talk:DoctorTexan/Archive 0), I see Billhpike did actually ask for an apology but while that may have contributed to a misunderstanding, DoctorTexan's response both at SPI and their talk page now that I've looked at the history (also see [182]) is sufficient to continue my major doubts about the likelihood this editor will be productive. As I noted on their talk page, even their most recent unblock request leaves a lot to be desired in my book. While they did later apologise to BillHPike, their unblock request says their contribs with the new account were all productive and not destructive, which while this may be true for those 3 edits to the encyclopaedia, is hard to see for their accusations of stalking and harassment. Nil Einne (talk) 10:16, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Lean Unblock as the explanation that they thought the successful unblock request on WikiData was good across projects is a reasonable one. Given that this editor looks to have a major POV they want to push, I don't know if they will actually become a useful editor, but I'm willing to give some WP:ROPE. —valereee (talk) 11:19, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- weak support Unblock Reasonable explanation, but I have a feeling they may well wind up here again shortly.Jackattack1597 (talk) 18:21, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Support unblock. What admins giveth, admins can taketh away. The editor should be clear that best behaviour will be required once unblocked. Mjroots (talk) 18:58, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Support unblock given that their edits under Wikinews, while faulty, show no indication of malice or using sockpuppets. Leaderboard (talk) 10:24, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- Support unblock. User has shown clear remorse and clear understanding that any further disruptions would result in more permanent ban. The history of POV pushing is concerning, but as always, there is WP:ROPE. SunDawn (talk) 14:59, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
User:Ziad Tarek 952005
Ziad Tarek 952005 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Hi. This user was blocked recently for one week for (unexplained) removal of categories from articles on Egyptian footballers. From their talkpage, this issue has been going on for a bit, with no repsonse from the user concerned. In the past 24 hours or so, they've continued with this disruption. Please can someone block their account? Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 09:00, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- It doesn't look like vandalism-only...they haven't ever edited a talk page. Maybe we just need to get their attention? —valereee (talk) 22:01, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you - hopefully they start to respond now. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 07:42, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Account hacked or compromised
Hi there, I'm User:Owlf and this morning i received email from wikipedia that "Someone, probably you, from IP address 46.244.29.181, has removed the email address of the account "Owlf" on Wikipedia. If this was not you, contact a site administrator immediately." And now the account is removing the pages tags and some old discussion pages which you can see in history. If here's any CU or admin i request you to immidiately ban it temporarily untill the further investigation. I also mailed in emergency but they suggest to stewards but this page is also helpful cause it's really important. Please help out. 103.10.31.47 (talk) 09:08, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I have blocked the account as compromised. 331dot (talk) 09:15, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- So someone compromised your account in order to... disrupt the deletion discussions about an article you recreated. That's credible, yup. —Cryptic 09:20, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- woahoohoho (apologies for that) well you are asking about the connection lol? lemme clear what would had happened, since you have COI with Prakash Neupane and after filing a rubbish SPI case in order to get me block just to save it when u saw all that failed you tried blanking 2 AFD pages about Prakash Neupane and when you saw [183] this discussion on admins page you realised your mistake because after the admins check your connections between user:SS49 and User:Owlf would expose that whole UPE thing because you had opened a case earlier on SPI involving my account the SPI case I opened got no value and got G6ed but when you saw that I am asking other admins to have a look at that you tried this trick of bluffing to distract others by stating that your account got hacked (and after it got hacked the hacker does only 2 edits and that was removing those 2 afd pages as blank because they might not let the page Prakash Neupane survive as per its discussion history lol) and since no one over here is fool @Cryptic: raised the right question lol. Cheers to you, rest I leave on Admins to decide upon things. Thanks Suryabeej (talk) 09:48, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm requesting for CU and my account has been compromised as I've got the email don't try to act weird here. As I'm editing from the account Owlf and need some serious CU check here. 103.10.31.47 (talk) 09:53, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I suggest you to get it checked ASAP!!Suryabeej (talk) 09:54, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- *@Blablubbs: i think you warned this crazy guy yesterday. 103.10.31.47 (talk) 09:58, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm requesting for CU and my account has been compromised as I've got the email don't try to act weird here. As I'm editing from the account Owlf and need some serious CU check here. 103.10.31.47 (talk) 09:53, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Also you will have to answer on why you didn't mentioned on @Owlf: page that you are also editing from other IP's since 2019 please disclose how many other Ip or accounts you are using to edit Wikipedia. Suryabeej (talk) 10:12, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Cryptic: not only blanking those 2 afd pages I just saw @Owlf: also tried to remove afd tag from the page Prakash Neupane which was Rollbacked by you only!! Suryabeej (talk) 10:21, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
47.147.73.81 removing redlinks
47.147.73.81 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
IP was asked to refrain from this by DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered but continued after this request unhindered. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 15:12, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I've checked their contributions and reverted nearly everything. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 16:25, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Aryan Sahu 1.0
Aryan Sahu 1.0 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
How was Aryan Sahu 1.0 able to vandalize semi-protected pages
- OpIndia (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) and
- Republic TV (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
after only 9 edits? --Guy Macon (talk) 15:53, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- They have twelve edits so I'm guessing they're only AC protected? YODADICAE👽 15:54, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Semi is 10 edits; account has 9 edits plus one to a deleted article. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 16:00, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- No, they have 12 per central auth. But I think this has been sufficiently answered. YODADICAE👽 16:03, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Moncton Canada music vandal again, new range
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- 2607:FEA8:F222:9C00:0:0:0:0/64 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial))
- Feb–March 2021: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1060#Moncton_Canada_music_vandal
Music vandal from Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada, is doing the same things again. Please set a rangeblock. Last time when we discussed this person, a larger /40 rangeblock was considered. Binksternet (talk) 21:24, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Done. Suitably arbitrary block length for such arbitrary screwing around. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:18, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
User:Daniel_LMSDF Discretionary Sanctions Israel/Palestine
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Can an admin please review the 12 edits of this editor. Few, if any, have been constructive and the most recent two are particuarly disruptive Special:Diff/1023177707 and Special:Diff/1023185361. At minimum, DS applies but really it's likely time for WP:NOTHERE Slywriter (talk) 21:49, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Blocked as an obvious WP:NOTHERE. RickinBaltimore (talk) 21:53, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Blatant POV-pushing by Escandar
User:Escandar has made a blatant POV-pushing at the Error has no rights page. He changed sourced information without removing the sources, making it look like those information were sourced. This user:
- completely changed "non-Catholics do not deserve civil or political rights. It was held as late as the 1950s" to "Catholics or non-Catholics ought not to express erroneous opinions. It was promoted by some Church authorities as late as the 1950s", despite what the source given at the time said ("Promotion of religious freedom was inextricably tied to this role, but in this case the Church's break from the past was more abrupt. As late as the 1950s the Church's official position was that since 'error has no rights,' Catholicism, as the true faith, should alone be sanctioned by the state.").
- removed "Catholic theology prior to Vatican II held that the ideal was a confessional state unified with the Church, with the reasoning that the Catholic Church's revealed truth would lead to 'perfect justice', and if the state allowed error to be expressed, it would detract from this." to replace it with a quote from John Paul II from 1993, saying the quote was the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in a page which states very clearly that after 1965 the doctrine had changed.
- He also changed the rest of the previous part to "Prior to Vatican II the social teaching of the Church suggested that the ideal was a confessional state harmonious with the teachings of the Church, with the reasoning that, in Jesus' words, "the Truth shall set you free," and thus be the path to "perfect justice", and if the state allowed the expression of error to get out of hand, it would detract from that goal.", despite what the source given said ("A vital component of the above church-state under standing was the principle that "error had no rights." I think we cannot overestimate the importance of this principle in dealing with the human rights question. In its conception of the ideal society those outside the Catholic church were in principle not entitled to political and civil rights because they lacked the true faith. This viewpoint, faith as the determinant of rights, continued to predominate in official Roman Catholic thinking at the highest levels until it was finally buried, only after the fiercest of struggles, by II Vatican's Declaration on Religious Liberty.").
Veverve (talk) 23:50, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- This does look like POV pushing. The sources are very clear that there was a shift in Catholic thinking in the twentieth century from being opposed to freedom of speech and human rights to being for them. However, this article has attracted POV pushers who try to make it seem that Catholic doctrine has been consistent over time despite lack of RS. (t · c) buidhe 00:45, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Continuous BLP Violations from 2600:1008:B02E:11B8:148F:58E3:8EA4:FADA
This user has repeatedly violated BLP, after multiple attempts to explain that it violates policy on the user's talk page. -- LemonSlushie 🍋 (talk) (edits) 00:03, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- Another admin has blocked them for 24 hours. Let me know if it resumes. This relates to Lil Reese. Johnuniq (talk) 02:13, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Flag icon topic ban user:Pyrope
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Pyrope began a discussion on my talk page about removing flag icons from some motorsport articles and the documentation of {{Infobox racing driver}}[184][185] Rocknrollmancer contributed and I replied. Pyrope replied. So far so good.
As I was writing a response, addressing the substance of the issues, I ran into an edit conflict because Pyrope had added personal attacks and wild accusations: "I take your threat of bullying quite seriously here, Dennis" accusing me of saying "we can raise more unthinking MoS fundamentalists than you can find people who know what they are talking about" as well as adding "your argument is not only intellectually and morally bankrupt".
These accusations are because I said if they want to propose giving all motorsports an exemption from MOS:FLAG, the WP:Snowball clause likely applies.
This is so bizarre that I decided it was pointless to continue to engage with this person, particularly on my own talk page. I removed their comments from my talk page, with the edit summary "I was going to reply to that first posts but you went and had to add something rude and insulting. Personal attacks are not acceptable. Get off my talk page and don't come back."
Pyrope reverted, with the edit summar "point out the rude bit", which verifies they read my edit summary telling them to stop posting on my talk page. This made it necessary to remove their comments again, and post a warning pointing out they had violated WP:TALK by returning to my talk page after they were aware I had banned them from posting there. What followed was a discussion of civility and talk page rules where Pyrope made several more personal attacks and confirmed that it was pointless to attempt to reason with them. First I was accused of making "threats" when I predicted a dozen editors would oppose an RfC to exempt motorsports from the MOS:FLAG rules.
After a couple days I proceeded with an RfC to clarify whether or not the motorsport WikiProjects wanted an exemption from MOS:FLAG. I was surprised that, at least at first, they said they didn't. Instead they said motorsports in fact met the criteria, which is very hard for me to understand.
After a very lengthy discussion, one editor, Tvx1, seemed to be on the verge of realizing that they really did want an exemption so that motorsports topics didn't have to show direct evidence that competitors are official representatives of a country. Which is actually fine. Their argument seems to be to be guided by the practice of most reliable sources, rather than strictly adhere to the standard of being an official representative.
In any case, this set Pyrope off again, causing them to post as series of insults, accusations and personal attacks, calling me "underhand and disingenuous", accusing me of "saying one thing and trying to do another" and of having "an axe to grind rather than a genuine intention to improve this encyclopedia."
Before coming here, I posted a final warning, asking them to remove the insults and attacks, and focus on content. Unfortunately, they stuck to their accusations.
An order to remove their personal attacks and sin no more might be enough. Or a topic ban on flag icon related issues might be necessary. A ban on motorsports would work but is probably overly broad based on what I've seen. All I'm asking for is to not have to wade through personal attacks while dealing with an already contentious topic. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 02:59, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- I invite anyone who wants to get involved here to please go and actually read all the discussion already entered into, as the description above is littered with misrepresentations and straight falsehoods, as were his previous comments in the discussions in question. In complaining about this behaviour I appear to have irritated Dennis, and his response was to go on the attack. Hey ho, another day at Wikipedia. Pyrope 03:06, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- I also note that his setting up of this AIN as a request for a topic ban (of pretty much the only topic I edit within... nice) rather than a simple complaint about behaviour is rather consistent with the bullying and aggressive manner in which Dennis has so far conducted himself. Pyrope 03:09, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- If you hate the idea of a topic ban so much, how about "delete the personal attacks and don't post any more personal attacks"? You could implement that right now and we'd be done. You're insisting everyone at ANI has to invest their time in this because you won't do that. Why? What's the point? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 04:47, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) At first, this seems like an ordinary content dispute, but [Dennis Bratland's] argument is not only intellectually and morally bankrupt (diff) and kevball dingbats (Special:Diff/1022465852) are personal attacks, so Pyrope (talk · contribs) has definitely been uncivil in this discussion.But Dennis Bratland (talk · contribs) has also demonstrated a lack of understanding of motorsports, as judged by their comments on Template_talk:Infobox_racing_driver and replies by Tvx1 (talk · contribs). Bratland has repeatedly asserted, based on their interpretation of the official rules, that racing drivers do not officially represent a country in international motorsports, and thus that national flags cannot be assigned to racing drivers per MOS:FLAG. Other users have pointed out that these arguments are incorrect, and I note that Bratland has never used a secondary source to back their argument, so I wouldn't be surprised if Bratland ended up topic-banned from motorsports. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 06:54, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- Saying that an argument is “intellectually and morally bankrupt” isn’t the same as saying Dennis Bratland is intellectually and morally bankrupt. One of those isn’t a personal attack, whatever else it is. I’m not sure what “kevball dingbats” are but even on the assumption that it’s not complimentary, the context doesn’t appear to be that they are calling Dennis Bratland a “kevball dingbat”. Not commenting on the rest of this - except it looks a bit trivial for ANI. DeCausa (talk) 07:43, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- Strongly opposed to a topic ban. I'm pretty appalled that this request was even posted. The accused editor has not made any controversial edits concerning flags so imposing a topic ban would be laughable. This is merely a disagreement over mutual civility. The OP is really overreacting though. I agree with DeCausa that Pyrope's comments relate to the argument, no the person.Tvx1 12:51, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose topic ban. What is this even doing here? Criticising someone's argument is not a personal attack, and as above, I'm not sure what kevball dingbats are, but it doesn't sound particularly egregious to me. Not only is Bratland's claim that racing drivers do not represent their countries in international motor racing incorrect, it proves that he has never read any of the acres of discussion about the topic. How on earth any of this merits a discussion about a topic ban, I have no idea. Bretonbanquet (talk) 14:25, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- Now SSSB is changing key words that are the crux of an open RfC about MOS:FLAG. Seems legit. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:02, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- I was reverting an major, yet undiscussed, change of wording, so it is legit.
SSSB (talk) 19:10, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- After disingenuously moving the goal posts, you go on insulting me, calling me a hypocrite. I directly quoted the MOS in this simple, one-sentence RfC question. Everyone read it. Tvx1 doubled down again and again on that wording[186][187][188]. They insisted drivers are official representatives. For days I was harangued with taunts from blowhards mansplaining racing to me. I was called names, accused of bad faith and underhanded ulterior motives, and belittled because I don't get motorsports lke they do.[189][190]
Pyrope insisted "International motorsports drivers are just as officially representatives of their nations".
And now, all of a sudden today, you guys realize I was right: motorsports doesn't adhere to the "official representative" standard. Very simple, and we all knew it. I expected you to !vote opposed to the RfC for that simple reason and then we could all proceed to sort this out after making clear where we stood. You're trying to gaslight me.[191] Pretending what you've been saying all along was a whole different standard, proving once more what an ignorant fool I am.
At a minimum, Pyrope, Tvx1 and SSSB need to withdraw their numerous insults and attacks on me, and admit my point from Day 1 was legitimate. They need to admit they were wrong trying to claim drivers officially represent countries, no good sources verify they are official representatives, and what they really want is to either exempt motorsports from MOS:FLAG, or write a different standard altogether.
If these editors refuse to own up to their gaslighting, bullying, dishonest behavior, I think a topic ban from the subject of flag icons is appropriate.
Now that we all agree drivers aren't official representatives (though some of us are unwilling to be honest about it) I think a good solution is possible with a new RfC that gets to the heart of the matter: User:Dennis Bratland/Draft MOS:SPORTFLAG RfC. From what I can tell, editors from across many sports-related WikiProjects will support the not-strictly-official option, because that's the de facto standard they follow anyway. It's what they want and they should be happy.
But I don't want to have to continue to deal with the bad faith, disruptive behavior of Pyrope, Tvx1, and SSSB. If they won't retract and admit what they've done, they need to be topic banned so everyone else can resolve this in a civl manner. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:46, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- After disingenuously moving the goal posts, you go on insulting me, calling me a hypocrite. I directly quoted the MOS in this simple, one-sentence RfC question. Everyone read it. Tvx1 doubled down again and again on that wording[186][187][188]. They insisted drivers are official representatives. For days I was harangued with taunts from blowhards mansplaining racing to me. I was called names, accused of bad faith and underhanded ulterior motives, and belittled because I don't get motorsports lke they do.[189][190]
- I was reverting an major, yet undiscussed, change of wording, so it is legit.
Green light3 persistent disruption of Ikigai
- Green light3 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I did post about this earlier to this noticeboard - Green light3 continues to add the "Criticism" section back to the article Ikigai, which has, as a brief glance over the article history will show, been removed for a reason.
The account doesn't seem to do anything else; it seems to be a pretty sole-purpose vandal. Green light3 has been warned a number of times - I can't decide myself whether this is incompetence or trolling, but either way, it's a constant stream of disruption. Any help? --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 09:52, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Indian YouTuber CarryMinati and suspected UPE
Two SPAs, U.G sam (talk · contribs) and Krish121 (talk · contribs) are repeatedly adding promotional content and spammy sources to the article CarryMinati, occasionally trying to whitewash the article [192], and name-dropping the subject in other articles, e.g. [193], [194]. The article is about an Indian YouTuber called Ajey Nagar (nicknamed CarryMinati), who has been promoted on Wikipedia by various users over a number of years – see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Carry Minati and Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:CarryMinati for some previous discussion of this. The article CarryMinati has now existed since December 2019. Since then it has been edited by sockpuppets of prolific UPE sockmaster Swarup Kumar Solanki (e.g. Vikas.bikaneri, VrajBMT), by Trusha.daware and Abhaas singh, both of whom have been blocked for advertising/UPE, and also by Roopika.n, a Trusha.daware sock. In Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Trusha.daware/Archive, Trusha.daware was connected to the marketing outfit One Digital Entertainment, and CarryMinati is one of their clients, according to One Digital's website.
U.G sam is the more prolific user, with 230 edits of which I think two are not directly related to CarryMinati. Examples of U.G sam's edits include [195] and [196]. Krish121's edits include [197] and [198]. Some of their edits are OK seen in isolation, but the consistent pattern of adding as much trivia as possible, multiple sources that praise the subject, and the latest hype the minute it has been published is telling. I don't think they are sockpuppets since their styles are not quite similar enough, but they are certainly working together: Krish121 made this edit and reverted it again, and five minutes later (literally five minutes, not an exaggeration), U.G sam made this edit.
Both U.G sam and Krish121 have denied being paid, [199], [200], and [201]. They have been warned repeatedly against promotional editing; U.G sam has received three final warnings, Krish121 one, and both of them have edited since. On 15 April I asked both editors to use edit requests, [202] and [203], see also [204] and [205]. They have not done that – U.G. sam occasionally posts to Talk:CarryMinati but also edits the article directly. Today, U.G sam asked me and CptViral to create an article about a song performed by CarryMinati.
I suggest that both accounts should be blocked for UPE/advertising. --bonadea contributions talk 10:02, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
After posting the above, I saw Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Krish121, where the CU result was "possible", different devices but similar geolocation. I think that tallies with what I say above. --bonadea contributions talk 10:17, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- I reported them to AIV, RFPP'd the page and opened a SPI... but I didn't think to make an AN/I thread about it! Anyway, I'm glad they are dealt with; someone ought to keep an eye on that article going forward because it looks like there have been lots of shenanigans with it lately. jp×g 21:48, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Lcha2011 and creating hoaxes
- Lcha2011 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Could someone please have a look at the contributions of this user and decide if a block is required please? This editor has been here since January, but almost every single article and draft they have created since joining has been G3 speedy deleted as a hoax (one was G1'd as incomprehensible nonsense). Most of this user's contributions have been focused around writing articles on flags that they made up and drawn in MS-paint, but they have also created pages on a non-existent disease, a non-existent territory and a nonsensical addition to the manual of style. This editor doesn't seem to understand the purpose of Wikipedia (i.e. it's not a host for stuff they've made up) and they seem to lack the competence to edit here constructively. There's also a load of hoax flags by this user uploaded to commons which will need cleaning up. Thanks, 192.76.8.91 (talk) 10:59, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- They've had loads of warnings, so a block is appropriate. I'll put a temporary one on for disruptive editing and see if that does the trick. Deb (talk) 11:12, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Pmffl reported by Alexander Davronov
User being reported: Pmffl (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User reporting: Alexander Davronov (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Statement by Alexander Davronov
Reviving this from the archive as Pmffl continues to remove my replies without due justification. ANI NOTICE DIFF
- WP:TPO/WP:UNCIVIL violation
- Page: Browser engine (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs):
Page: User talk:Pmffl (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)
- 16:06, May 8, 2021) "Notable engines as subsections (remove bullets): removing weird @me with unrelated link. Just simply propose what you want without weird crap."
- 16:07, May 8, 2021: "Flow engine: removing non-sequitor - there is a template and Comparisons article for this"
- 20:25, May 8, 2021 — Me requesting on his talk page to stop editing my replies
- 20:27, May 8, 2021 "No, for reasons in my commit comments there. Stop @ing me with really sloppy crap. in the talkpage. I cleaned it up to be sensible"
- 20:55, May 8, 2021 — "restore AXO comment that I shouldn't have removed, plus more info in my response"
- WP:TPO/WP:EDITING/WP:ZEAL breach
- Page: JavaScript (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs):
In the past (2020) Pmffl has made various questionable, unWP:PRESERVEing or simply WP:SNEAKY-bordering edits to a legitimate content which might have been otherwise kept under WP:IMPERFECT provision, or get improved otherwise:
- 20:58, February 6, 2020 "remove redundant sidebar" — There is no sidebar listing the same information.
- 21:25, February 6, 2020 "almost entirely obsolete + largely self-promotional" - Cut out a list of books of mostly historical value from the Read further subsection .
- 17:33, February 7, 2020"Development tools: rewrite to be concise and remove the obsolete" — Cutting out some (legitimately?) sourced details on JS debuggers software.
- 20:58, February 8, 2020 "more concise and polished, remove tangents)" - Removing sourced information
Here they remove my replies on the talk page:
- 14:28, May 9, 2021 "removing smear post by a guy with an axe to grind"
- 16:37, May 10, 2021 "exactly, MrOllie, which is why I'm removing this garbage"
- 12:38, May 16, 2021 - «Latest changes by Pmffl: removing the smear, as stated before; keep the specific items»
- 17:27, May 17, 2021 - «Undid revision 1023467424 by Alexander Davronov talk) No, not okay to say this as others have told you.»
--AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 15:36, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Request
- Warn Pmffl of his misbehavior and direct him to WP:HTBC essay and WP:EDITING (WP:PRESERVE/WP:DON'T PRESERVE) policy and impose WP:IBAN. --AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 15:36, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Comments
There's a reason you got no comments last time Alexander Davronov: no admin thought there was any action to take. Someone using mild curse words in edit summaries is not the kind of dispute that needs admin attention. You don't need all the structure btw, this isn't Arbitration Enforcement. You need to follow Wikipedia:Dispute resolution and that does not involve trawling your opponent's old edits for supposed wrongdoing. Fences&Windows 19:50, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Fences and windows: Am I correct that you're saying that I can remove other's comments, including yours? AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 19:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- No, Alexander Davronov. Pmffl restored your talk page comment, which is what I was aware of. However, this today was not OK. Pmffl, you must not remove others' article talk page comments. You must also follow correct talk page archiving rather than just removing old comments as done here for example. Pmfll, please promise not to repeat the removal of others' article talk comments unless you are strictly following WP:TPO and please correct your incorrect removals without archiving. Fences&Windows 20:40, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- Disagree. His vaguely-worded post is merely a smear of me. As MrOllie and others have pointed out, it doesn't belong on the Javascript talkpage. So I keep removing it. -Pmffl (talk) 17:31, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- It's not up to you to decide, Pmffl. Let others do it: don’t edit war with someone who is critiquing you. You didn't reply about your inappropriate removal of old talk page comments without archiving. Will you clean up after your earlier inappropriate edits to create an archive? Fences&Windows 19:16, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Pmffl: Letting everyone to know that I disagree with your edits isn't a "smear" of you. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 19:08, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- Disagree. His vaguely-worded post is merely a smear of me. As MrOllie and others have pointed out, it doesn't belong on the Javascript talkpage. So I keep removing it. -Pmffl (talk) 17:31, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- No, Alexander Davronov. Pmffl restored your talk page comment, which is what I was aware of. However, this today was not OK. Pmffl, you must not remove others' article talk page comments. You must also follow correct talk page archiving rather than just removing old comments as done here for example. Pmfll, please promise not to repeat the removal of others' article talk comments unless you are strictly following WP:TPO and please correct your incorrect removals without archiving. Fences&Windows 20:40, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Second sentence of WP:NPA: Comment on content, not on the contributor.
From my reading, the parts you highlighted in yellow are indeed Pmfll commenting on content, with some mild language like "sloppy", "crap", "weird", "garbage". The only thing that is nearing a personal attack might be "removing smear post by a guy with an axe to grind". Leijurv (talk) 21:25, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- In fairness, when that comment is "I think the latest edits by Pmffl must be revised and amended. Feel free to notify me of proposals." It does indeed sound like someone who is just against another user's edits, because. Canterbury Tail talk 23:20, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Canterbury Tail: I wasn't able to elaborate because Pmffl has removed it the same day it was posted. The same thing has happened two times a day earlier (8 May) so I decided to fill ANI complaint instead of explaining anything. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 08:34, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Leijurv: In all three cases he was either editing or removing my replies. In very first diff above he's removed a diff link pointing out to his edit. That's what kind of "content" he has called a "weird crap". All these highlighted summaries are only about my replies. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 08:51, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- Alexander Davronov, The way you format your talk page entries, with all the subsections and templated diffs and such, is fairly unusual. People who mostly read talk pages by looking at diffs are going to be confused, and it does tend to make for alerts that are difficult to understand. "weird crap" isn't a very charitable way to describe it, but I do understand what Pmffl means. MrOllie (talk) 12:01, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- The following should clarify why MrOllie is making remarks like that one above: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1062#Canvassing_in_Malassezia AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 18:25, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, you do have a history of using ANI to try to win content disputes, thank you for pointing that out. (See also Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1063#Request_to_enforce_WP:FOC_&_WP:NPA_in_Talk:Malassezia) However, the reason I'm commenting on this dispute (and on Talk:Javascript) is that I have had the Javascript article on my watchlist for years. - MrOllie (talk) 18:27, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- @MrOllie: Just saying. I don't want to turn this into a WP:BATTLEGROUND. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 18:36, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, you do have a history of using ANI to try to win content disputes, thank you for pointing that out. (See also Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1063#Request_to_enforce_WP:FOC_&_WP:NPA_in_Talk:Malassezia) However, the reason I'm commenting on this dispute (and on Talk:Javascript) is that I have had the Javascript article on my watchlist for years. - MrOllie (talk) 18:27, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- The following should clarify why MrOllie is making remarks like that one above: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1062#Canvassing_in_Malassezia AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 18:25, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- Alexander Davronov, The way you format your talk page entries, with all the subsections and templated diffs and such, is fairly unusual. People who mostly read talk pages by looking at diffs are going to be confused, and it does tend to make for alerts that are difficult to understand. "weird crap" isn't a very charitable way to describe it, but I do understand what Pmffl means. MrOllie (talk) 12:01, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Kpmm198495
Kpmm198495 (talk · contribs) keeps violating the BLP policy at James Charles (Internet personality). I'm not saying that these events didn't happen as the article has them written in a neutral tone in the body. I'm saying that Kpmm198495 is deliberately calling Charles a "child predator" despite he was never arrested nor sentenced for such charges. What's even worse is that Kpmm198495 not only added the link of the "Photo taken by Charles and sent to minors on social media platforms", Kpmm198495 decided to upload it as "JailbirdJC" and leave it there ironically doing what Charles did in the first place, but instead of sending it to specific minors, Kpmm198495 decided that anyone reading the article had to be a spectator of his naked photograph. Kpmm198495 is not explaining his actions and as a fact, his account remained inactive for 18 months until they autoconfirmed it yesterday in order to edit the page. The inclusion of it in the lead is already being discussed here, where of course, has to be done in a neutral and due way. (CC) Tbhotch™ 21:34, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- Given their... response... here, an indef for disruption and BLP violations seems appropriate. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:17, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- Their contributions include a revdelled response to this AN/I section, so one can't help but wonder if they're WP:HERE. Much to think about. jp×g 02:28, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Ethnic slurs
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
What is our tolerance on ethnic slurs? The more I looked at this, the more I thought there should be zero tolerance.--- Possibly (talk) 23:20, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- Certainly when used as part of a vandalistic edit they should not be tolerated. I suggest a block is in order, and rev-del. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:56, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- I have revision deleted the linked diff and indefinitely blocked the editor per WP:NOTHERE. -- LuK3 (Talk) 00:40, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- Well done! Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:26, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- I have revision deleted the linked diff and indefinitely blocked the editor per WP:NOTHERE. -- LuK3 (Talk) 00:40, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Admin protecting own talk page pre-emptively
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Favonian just misused their admin tools. Someone should come by and desysop them immediately. This is like blocking someone they’re involved with. --90.235.34.213 (talk) 00:32, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) While, yes, no reason was given, I don't see how this amounts to anything approaching desysop territory. Regardless, our processes do not allow for someone to
come by and desysop them immediately
. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 01:23, 17 May 2021 (UTC)- The report compared this to WP:INVOLVED, which contains a clause where an involved admin can take any obvious action that any other admin would take. In that light, semi-protecting their user talk page is an appropriate response to harassment by unregistered editors. —C.Fred (talk) 01:27, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- That talk page has been the target of an inordinate amount of harassment lately (including from someone from the same country and cellular data provider as you [211]), so it is not purely preemptive. I would have protected the talk page myself, if they had asked me, and another good thing is that they're only protecting it for up to a few hours or one day at a time. Nothing to see here. Mz7 (talk) 01:28, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
98.200.8.248 claim to engage in criminal activity
In this particular diff an IP editor 98.200.8.248 (talk · contribs) has claimed that he has engaged in an off-wiki criminal activity. While he has been reported to AIV, and I am sure that he will be blocked, I think his multiple claims of his crime should be rev-delled. Thank you. SunDawn (talk) 06:33, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- I don't see a need to do more than revert and block for edit warring, as has been done. The IP is not saying they did it; they could be retelling some legendary story about the software (involving a hacker allegedly doing something at the request of a friend of the hacker). The material does not reveal anything that needs revision deletion IMHO although if someone wants to do, that's fine. Johnuniq (talk) 07:17, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- Check out all of the IP's contributions: they are indeed claiming ownership of the misdeeds. 2600:8800:1880:68:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26 (talk) 09:56, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Johnuniq: Might want to check this one it may cross that line. NonReproBlue (talk) 10:41, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry but it looks like a rant to me. The relevant policy is Wikipedia:Revision deletion. Other admins are welcome to have a look and rev-delete the IP's edits/comments if wanted but I don't see a need. Johnuniq (talk) 11:03, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Mass deletions of operators
In a series of 3 edits User:FOX 52 has performed mass deletions of operators in the BN Islander article.
Of the previously listed 243 operators, a mere 36 were left in place in the current "List of Britten-Norman Islander operators", equalling a deletion of 85% of all operators.
Apparently, he feels that this might be justified by his "remove un-sourced content" comment.
However, it appears somewhat ridiculous to me to demand one source for every one to four words (= one operator) in a long standing article. Using this method, one could delete some 90% of the entire Wikipedia contents.
An attempt to solve the problem in Talk:List of Britten-Norman Islander operators has failed.
The previous content has to be restored, possibly by adding the note "citation needed", and efforts might be continued to raise the percentage of sourced material.
Wholesale deletions like those having been done cannot be tolerated, they would destroy a huge percentage of WP contents. --Uli Elch (talk) 11:36, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- PS: In the meantime, he has deleted the entire list as such and downgraded it to a section the main Britten-Norman Islander article. --Uli Elch (talk) 11:46, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- Uli Elch, this is a content dispute. Please seek input at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft. The old list is still in the history for you and others to verify: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Britten-Norman_Islander_operators&oldid=1018241843. These are the relevant guidelines: Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists. Fences&Windows 12:52, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)@Uli Elch: When you asked him to discuss the matter with you, what were the results of that discussion? --Jayron32 12:52, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Jr Tahun and repeated additions of unsourced content
Jr Tahun (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) This user has been repeadtly warned for adding unsourced content to various articles related to the 2020 Summer Olympics. However, they continue to keep adding this information per WP:SYNTH and without adding any concrete sources. At this point, I cannot continue reverting this user's edits as that would violate the 3rr rule, but something needs to be done here to stop the addition of the unsourced content. The user has even admitted (on their talk page) to as such, I am lazy looking for it, but you can find it yourself on the BWF website and tomorrow, May 18th, the ranking will be published. Here are some examples [212], [213]. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 16:03, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Sychonic
- Sychonic (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- J Hutton Pulitzer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Concerning the Republican "audit" of electoral votes in Maricopa County, Sychonic believes that Media sources, the exact ones you refer to, are no longer credible on this issue (and most to others), they have consistently shown bias in their reporting and this is further indicia of it. As distinct from the numerous elections before, they squelch any mention of possible fraudulent activity in the 2020 election even though there is voluminous material indicating possible malfeasance.
. As a result he is edit-warring to a version of the article that treats the "audit" as a legitimate exercise, in defiance of sources including one of the sources he prefers, "Inside Arizona’s election audit, GOP fraud fantasies live on", but also reintroducing Vision Times, a Falun Gong newspaper indistinguishable from Epoch Times. diff, diff, diff, diff. Three editors - MjolnirPants (via MPants at work), MrOllie and I - have reverted.
Pulitzer is a colourful character (see CueCat) but the sources here appear unambiguous: his input in the Arizona "audit" is political activism, not a genuine contribution to electoral integrity. Sychonic sees it differently, and that seems to be a fringe view under the circumstances, and certainly not one supported by the sources. Guy (help! - typo?) 17:48, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- Based on the diffs, I feel an AP2 topic-ban for Sychonic is necessary. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 18:17, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
____
The issue related to this article is not the subject involved, J. Pulitzer, but rather the characterization of the audit being conducted in Arizona by the State Legislature there. The contention is between my edit, which I believe is neutral, and the edit proposed by the person bringing this request. My edit proposes to use primarily information from the Wikipedia article on the 2020 election in Arizona as a general matter, and its reference to the audit being conducted while the that replaced it is pure partisan politics, using language such as "Big Lie" as if this were an appropriate and common term rather than a talking point. I believe that Wikipedia should remain above the fray in issues like this, and insist on strict impartiality on all aspects of politics and simply report as an encyclopedia should -- factual matter. It is being increasingly used by editors for their own personal agendas, seeking to change the world of their point of view, and Wikipedia should not allow itself to become that.
I have added references from sources that are both hostile to the audit (USA Today) and one that contained an interesting quote from the subject of the article -- purely as a reference for that quote, which is real. I do not particularly care for either publication in my personal reading, but neither is particularly reliable when it comes to reporting facts, and this has become a large problem, a broader problem when heretofore reliable news sources have clearly shed their impartial nature and litter their "news" section with unabashed opinions. One has to read everything with a grain of salt, and perhaps more, to get at the truth.
If Wikipedia becomes indistinguishable from the Huffington Post, or another of the online, low-brow political rags, then it will be a great loss to all concerned. This is a small matter about a minor figure, one who can best be called, in American idiom, "flaky". On this topic, though, the references to "big lie" and "partisan" and other rhetorical matters should be minimized, and I believe my edits have done that, and done so in good faith. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sychonic (talk • contribs) 20:02, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm sympathetic to arguments that minority or even fringe viewpoints be accurately described, but that isn't what we have here. We have one person making truly ludicrous claims that are being sourced to a site with severe credibility problems. When there is reliable commentary on ludicrous claims (looking for bamboo in ballots to detect a Chinese conspiracy), it may be worth discussing in some detail. When there is not such commentary, the details aren't relevant to any page on Wikipedia, as multiple editors who have reverted you have already stated. You cannot keep edit-warring and accusing everyone else of being biased. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 20:13, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- While this conversation is ongoing, it is probably unwise for you to continue edit warring at the article, as you just did in this edit. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 20:18, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- I've blocked Sychonic for 31 hours for edit warring. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 20:35, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Request to close an RFC
Hi. An RfC on article heading was opened at Talk:Roderic O'Gorman on 13 April, and it has had no additional input since 9 May. Could an uninvolved admin drop by and close it, please? Thanks in advance, BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 19:16, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- Wrong venue. Please use WP:ANRFC and please request an uninvolved editor, not administrator, unless you have a specific reason why an admin is needed. Politrukki (talk) 19:41, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Incivility By Admin User:JzG
According to WP:ADFAQ#CONDUCT "You can report problems with admins misusing their privileges at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents." To editor JzG: response to closing response to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2021_storming_of_the_United_States_Capitol#When_WP:BLPCRIME_does_and_does_not_apply do not seem to appear to be consistent with WP:ADMINCOND and WP:CIVIL. The user's response was condescending, passive aggressive, and presumptive. Since "Administrators should lead by example and, like all editors, should behave in a respectful, civil manner in their interactions with others." this issue is more appropriately brought here as opposed to the normal course.Yousef Raz (talk) 20:08, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- Could you provide diffs for the behavior you're discussing? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 20:16, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- JzG is not currently an admin, and a link to the specific diff where the offending comment was added would be helpful. The comment I think you're referring to doesn't seem objectionable. The concern that Yousef Raz may be tendentiously ignoring consensus was a valid one. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 20:19, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Yousef Raz, I've checked literally every post by Guy (JzG) currently there, and I'm not seeing a conduct issue, even if JzG were currently an admin. They might be a little short with people, and certainly I saw posts that were not neutral. Can you provide a diff to show us what you're complaining about? —valereee (talk) 20:26, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2021_storming_of_the_United_States_Capitol&oldid=1023512666
Close please. This is tending towards bad temper as one editor doesn't seem to like the answer, so to summarise the above: consensus is that calling it an insurrection doesn't violate BLPCRIME, not least because it's a term in common use by so many reliable sources that even WP:ATT would look weird in context. To summarise the summary: insurrections have consequences, and one of them is being called an insurrectionist. Yes, I understand that those involved are baffled at this, and thought they were going to have a special place in Trump's second inaugural parade. Cults are shitty that way. Guy (help! - typo?) 20:01, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Yousef Raz (talk) 20:29, 17 May 2021 (UTC)- I accept a consensus with no objections. I'm an adult, if my view is not accepted I move on. Being uncivil is not appropriate. User:JzG page identifies him as an admin.Yousef Raz (talk)
- More specifically
Yes, I understand that those involved are baffled at this, and thought they were going to have a special place in Trump's second inaugural parade. Cults are shitty that way.
20:34, 17 May 2021 (UTC)- I get that I'm new here, but that is considered a civil response, a respectful response, of an administrator? If it is, then so be it. But it appears to be condescending, passive aggressive, and presumptive.Yousef Raz (talk) 20:34, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- They're not an admin. The userbox you've taken as saying they are links to Wikipedia:Rouge admin, which identifies itself as a humorous page that is not official policy. ◦ Trey Maturin 20:51, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks @Trey Maturin. That's a little misleading.Yousef Raz (talk) 20:53, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- Even if he had been an admin, participating in a content discussion is not an admin action – admins have no special privileges or powers when it comes to content questions. In any case, I fail to see anything inappropriate in that response. Exasperated, yes, uncivil, no – apart from the fact that the part you quote specifically isn't even directed at any of the participants in the discussion. --bonadea contributions talk 21:28, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks @Trey Maturin. That's a little misleading.Yousef Raz (talk) 20:53, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- They're not an admin. The userbox you've taken as saying they are links to Wikipedia:Rouge admin, which identifies itself as a humorous page that is not official policy. ◦ Trey Maturin 20:51, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- I get that I'm new here, but that is considered a civil response, a respectful response, of an administrator? If it is, then so be it. But it appears to be condescending, passive aggressive, and presumptive.Yousef Raz (talk) 20:34, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- For the avoidance of doubt, I do not think that Yousef Raz is an insurrectionist. I do think that many of the people who were sucked into the insurrection exhibit some or all of the qualities of cult victims - not an especially controversial view given the prevalence of QAnon belief in this group. I have sympathy with people who genuinely believed that they were going to save America from democracy, restore Trump to his throne, and be feted as heroes. It's easy to see how those who live entirely within the bubble of conservative media might come to that conclusion, delusional though it so very obviously is to those of us that consume a diet of facts and reality. I have sympathy. But that sympathy stops short of whitewashing the insurrection. Guy (help! - typo?) 21:37, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- More specifically
- I accept a consensus with no objections. I'm an adult, if my view is not accepted I move on. Being uncivil is not appropriate. User:JzG page identifies him as an admin.Yousef Raz (talk)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2021_storming_of_the_United_States_Capitol&oldid=1023512666