Kingsindian (talk | contribs) |
m →Statement by Icewhiz: format Zimmerman quote. |
||
Line 295: | Line 295: | ||
# I provided a direct quotation of Gross (who in most of the world is considered one of the leading scholars (and certainly one of the most cited) in the topic area in the past 20-30 years) - that refers to Poles as a whole (of which the AK was the largest armed group) - I should have chosen a better source referring specifically to the AK - which I indeed did - [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Home_Army&diff=845218561&oldid=845215814 in the next post] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Home_Army&diff=845219277&oldid=845218627 and added an example]. |
# I provided a direct quotation of Gross (who in most of the world is considered one of the leading scholars (and certainly one of the most cited) in the topic area in the past 20-30 years) - that refers to Poles as a whole (of which the AK was the largest armed group) - I should have chosen a better source referring specifically to the AK - which I indeed did - [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Home_Army&diff=845218561&oldid=845215814 in the next post] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Home_Army&diff=845219277&oldid=845218627 and added an example]. |
||
# Again - this is "word code" incident (see 7), which is much disputed (A Soviet unit (per witness accounts possibly with some Jews in it - some former residents of the town) attacked the village (which housed a self-defense unit (which was also cover for AK) sanctioned by the Nazi authorities - a unit which resisted partisan requisition attempts), was fired upon (around 6 Soviets were killed), and after the firefight - executed mainly men and teenagers who were mainly members of the unit in the village (in all ~127-130 villagers died - mainly male teenagers and men, but also 3 women and a 10 year old child). I did not say "theft" - I said took over. As might be seen in ''USHMM Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, 1933-1945, vol II'' pages 1185,1203-4,1229,1248 - there were Jewish residents in Naliboki prior to 1943 - if we are tying these former Jewish residents (based on some of the witness testimony), this is possibly relevant background. |
# Again - this is "word code" incident (see 7), which is much disputed (A Soviet unit (per witness accounts possibly with some Jews in it - some former residents of the town) attacked the village (which housed a self-defense unit (which was also cover for AK) sanctioned by the Nazi authorities - a unit which resisted partisan requisition attempts), was fired upon (around 6 Soviets were killed), and after the firefight - executed mainly men and teenagers who were mainly members of the unit in the village (in all ~127-130 villagers died - mainly male teenagers and men, but also 3 women and a 10 year old child). I did not say "theft" - I said took over. As might be seen in ''USHMM Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, 1933-1945, vol II'' pages 1185,1203-4,1229,1248 - there were Jewish residents in Naliboki prior to 1943 - if we are tying these former Jewish residents (based on some of the witness testimony), this is possibly relevant background. |
||
# I provided a patently absurd example - which I explained (sourced) in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Home_Army&diff=846512971&oldid=846406989 here] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Home_Army&diff=846518656&oldid=846515006 here] - in regards to a section with OR (the source was a list of names) that misrepresented Yad Vashem's award. I will quote [[Joshua D. Zimmerman]] - {{tq|Understanding of the Polish Underground’s wartime record was overwhelmingly negative. Holocaust survivor testimony and scholarly studies argued that partisans of the Home Army — those clandestine forces in Nazi-occupied Poland loyal to the Polish government-in-exile — '''were just as dangerous to Jews as were the Nazis. And the specific cases on which these claims were made were no doubt accurate'''}}[https://www.politico.eu/article/the-sometimes-righteous-underground-poland-homearmy-nazis-jews/] <small>(and will note that Zimmerman has a more nuanced view - he differentiates between the most positive pre-June 1943 command of Rowecki, and the subsequent negative Bór-Komorowski as well as differentiating by area/individuals)</small>. This is a widely used comparison (in regards danger to Jews) made by several scholars of Holocaust studies - and should not be seen as offensive (and in fact - if an editor rejects Holocaust studies scholarship based on "offensiveness" - that is a serious issue). |
# I provided a patently absurd example - which I explained (sourced) in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Home_Army&diff=846512971&oldid=846406989 here] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Home_Army&diff=846518656&oldid=846515006 here] - in regards to a section with OR (the source was a list of names) that misrepresented Yad Vashem's award. I will quote [[Joshua D. Zimmerman]] - {{tq|"Understanding of the Polish Underground’s wartime record was overwhelmingly negative. Holocaust survivor testimony and '''scholarly studies''' argued that '''partisans of the Home Army''' — those clandestine forces in Nazi-occupied Poland loyal to the Polish government-in-exile — '''were just as dangerous to Jews as were the Nazis. And the specific cases on which these claims were made were no doubt accurate'''"}}[https://www.politico.eu/article/the-sometimes-righteous-underground-poland-homearmy-nazis-jews/] <small>(and will note that Zimmerman has a more nuanced view - he differentiates between the most positive pre-June 1943 command of Rowecki, and the subsequent negative Bór-Komorowski as well as differentiating by area/individuals)</small>. This is a widely used comparison (in regards danger to Jews) made by several scholars of Holocaust studies - and should not be seen as offensive (and in fact - if an editor rejects Holocaust studies scholarship based on "offensiveness" - that is a serious issue). |
||
[[User:Icewhiz|Icewhiz]] ([[User talk:Icewhiz|talk]]) 07:05, 4 July 2018 (UTC) |
[[User:Icewhiz|Icewhiz]] ([[User talk:Icewhiz|talk]]) 07:05, 4 July 2018 (UTC) |
||
:I would like to point out the following misrepresentations, in article main-space, by MyMoloboaccount: |
:I would like to point out the following misrepresentations, in article main-space, by MyMoloboaccount: |
Revision as of 08:00, 4 July 2018
Rusf10
Rusf10 is warned against using purely personal opinion in place of policy-based argument when assessing the quality of sources. They are also warned against engaging against engaging in WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior and assuming bad faith in other editors. ~Awilley (talk) 03:41, 4 July 2018 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Rusf10
1.June 26 Asserts, without evidence, that a living person (David Cutler) " hates Donald Trump". Also asserts that the subject (Cutler) is "fringe theorist" because "he's a professor, he's liberal, he's worked in Democratic administration". Apparently being a liberal academic automatically makes you "fringe".
2.June 25 "Drmies, is under the false impression that everything published in an academic journal must be true which is really no more intelligent than saying "I read it on the internet, it must be true"" - appears to say that stuff published in academic journal is no better than "stuff found on the internet". Again, a pretty fundamental opposition to our policy on reliable sources. 3.June 26 " You don't have any intent to follow WP:NPOV, since its clear that you here to push a certain viewpoint, so don't lecture me on policies." - Attacks other editors and ascribes motivations to them rather than discussing content. 4.June 26 Doubles down on the "hates Trump" BLP violating claim because... he looked at the guys twitter which apparently has some criticism of Trump's policies. It should be obvious that being critical of some Trump policy is not the same thing as "hating" Trump. More minor (at least IMO) but still problematic
N/A Note: @Fish and karate: despite what User:Lionelt insinuates, I don't have a topic ban on Donald Trump. User:JFG is also incorrect that I am "restricted" from that article. The only thing here is that I told NeilN, after he asked, that I'd leave the article alone for a few days. Also I have not cast WP:ASPERSIONS against anyone. I presented diffs in an appropriate forum. If you don't find these convincing, that's fine. But it's not aspersions, it's dispute resolution. You should also look at the diffs provided by User:MrX below. Note: In this diff I am pointing out that just because there is the "standard disclaimer" on the piece ("does not represent the views of blah blah blah"), that does not make it an opinion piece. Lots of peer reviewed publications have these, it's just legal ass covering. And while Newsweek may call it "an opinion piece" I was objecting and still object to the proposition that this academic source is in any way comparable to "opinion pieces" published as editorials in newspapers and magazines.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:09, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
For BLP For post 1932 American politics
Here is the broader discussion. Rusf10 appears to have a... strange, idea of how academia and academic publishing works. He also appears to be reflexively distrustful of academic and scholarly sources. Several users, including User:Drmies and User:Neutrality have tried reasoning with him and explaining to him how it works, but it fells on a bit of deaf ears.
Discussion concerning Rusf10Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Rusf10This is a waste of everyone's time and should boomerang on Volunteer Marek just for bringing this here. Is he really trying to take me to AE because I said a professor "hates Trump"? Regardless of whether or not he truly hates him, its 100% he doesn't like him, so this request is really petty. What Volunteer Marek doesn't want you know is that I'm criticizing an opinion piece being used as a reliable source. I never said everything published in an academic journal is not reliable, but an opinion piece that has not been peer-reviewed with a disclaimer is probably not reliable. Any claim that 80,000 people are going to die should obviously be viewed with skepticism. And this edit came right after VM said "And again, your comment basically indicates that you have no intent of following Wikipedia's policy on reliable sources (you dismiss academic and scholarly sources out of hand)." [2], so how is what I said any worse? The reset of the diffs VM provided are even more petty, so I'm not even going to respond to them. One thing is clear, VM doesn't like his views challenged.--Rusf10 (talk) 08:46, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
@NeilN: In that diff, I was trying to make the point that an opinion piece published anywhere (including a medical journal) is still an opinion piece. Perhaps I could have said it differently, but this came after Drmies attacked me. Here is his comment which I was referring to [7]. Being that he is an admin, I took that to be a threat. And now he has come here and piled on even more personal attacks. Look at the diffs I posted, Drmies behavior is clearly unacceptable for an admin.--Rusf10 (talk) 02:22, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
@Drmies: Consider striking your response. First as reported by Bloomberg (last I checked, that's still a reliable source) "The essay, which was not a formal peer-reviewed study" [14]. Now either you're wrong or Bloomberg is wrong, which is it? It seems to me that you are the one who chooses to ignore reliable sources if they don't fit your POV.--Rusf10 (talk) 01:44, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
@Fish and karate, NeilN, Masem, Vanamonde93, MastCell, GoldenRing, Awilley, TonyBallioni, Bishonen, and Black Kite: I'm sorry to ping everyone again, but I really want to know how any of you in good consensus are about to let USER:Drmies off scot-free when he continues to personally attack me. Statement by LioneltCorrect me if I'm wrong, but isn't Volunteer Marek banned from the Trump article? – Lionel(talk) 08:49, 26 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by JFGContent dispute, RfC in progress, nothing to see here. — JFG talk 09:55, 26 June 2018 (UTC) @Lionelt: VM is only restricted from editing the Donald Trump article. This thread is about Presidency of Donald Trump. — JFG talk 09:55, 26 June 2018 (UTC) To admins reviewing the case: it seemed to me that AE's goal is to discuss editor conduct, not litigate content disputes. But since the discussion has evolved into an analysis of the disputed source's validity, let's take a look. Most of the comments supporting the use of this source as a credible study lean on appeal to authority: "the authors are recognized experts", "Harvard is a serious university", "JAMA is a reputable journal". Yes, yes, and yes, that is not the issue. The fundamental problem that is still being debated at the ongoing RfC and at RS/N, is that some editors are conflating JAMA as a peer-reviewed journal and the JAMA Forum, which by their own disclaimer, is only a repository for opinion pieces.[18] Special congrats to the reporting editor here, Volunteer Marek, who first seemed blind to what JAMA stated,[19] then waved it away saying "it's just standard legal-ass-covering and nothing more",[20] and finally came here while the content dispute is still in full swing to get a dissenting editor sanctioned. OK, that's an opinion piece which should have some more weight than a random blog because of the reputation of the writers, however that is still not more than an opinion piece, a fact that should be taken into account according to our sourcing policies. Usage of this particular report is problematic due to the dire consequences predicted, pinned on speculation about long-term effects of the recent relaxing of various EPA regulations. On its face, the source sounds like political scaremongering, and this is probably why it has been so much disputed, both at Wikipedia and in secondary sources. In light of this controversy, I would find it particularly wrong-headed to heap sanctions on an editor who forcefully defends one view of this study, while excusing other editors who forcefully defend the other side. Civility is not great on either side of the debate, so that AE sanctions for this reason would also be unfair. Again, that is a content dispute, let it be resolved at the appropriate forums. — JFG talk 10:52, 30 June 2018 (UTC) Statement by SPECIFICOAs documented in the diffs VM provided, Rusf10 has openly explicitly and repeatedly denied core WP sourcing policies and gratuitously defamed living persons whose professional work was under discussion on the article talk page. This user has failed to respond to the pleadings of numerous editors who have explained this problem and why such behavior is unacceptable. This editor has already drained way too much time and attention, and despite all these good faith attempts to redirect Rusf10's behavior, he has chosen to continue and to escalate his rhetoric. This user has rejected core WP policies and Guidelines and should be TBANed from BLP and American Politics articles. SPECIFICO talk 12:32, 26 June 2018 (UTC) Rusf10's insipid rebuke of Drmies is all the confirmation we need to know that he is unwilling to abide by WP norms in these articles. SPECIFICO talk 18:51, 26 June 2018 (UTC) @GoldenRing: The proposed article content stated the authors' finding as such and with attribution, not in WP's voice. These are notable scholars writing in the field of their expertise. Several times on the talk page it was pointed out, this would be valid article content even if it appeared in their self-published blog. Attempts to disparage the authors as "fringe" and WP editors as dishonest POV-pushers have nothing to do with any "content dispute". BTW, I also see similar over the top interpersonal interactions in this user's history in entirely different contexts. But at any rate, with the explicit Civility Sanction on the current article, there's not much question about his violations. SPECIFICO talk 11:56, 30 June 2018 (UTC) I'm puzzled as to why the only discussion among Admins now has narrowed to the detailed wording of a prospective warning when there were many Admins considering an indefinite TBAN. Even if the latter does not happen, there's a lot of daylight between that and a -- let's face it -- meaningless "warning". There's lots of disruptive behavior that might arguably be prevented by a warning. An explicit rejection of WP sourcing and content policy cannot be changed by a warning. (cannot be changed, that is, if we assume it was a good faith statement of Rusf10's understanding and belief and not a (blockable) bad faith gaming of the discussion thread. For the avoidance of doubt, I read it as the former. SPECIFICO talk 18:08, 2 July 2018 (UTC) @Rusf10: wrote, Statement by MrXAs evidenced by Volunteer Marek, Rusf10 is exhibiting consensus-inhibiting behaviors described in WP:GAMING, WP:NPA, and WP:BLP. Specifically, personal attacks, filibustering, ad hominems about academic sources and similar disparagement of living people, assumptions of bad faith.
A few of such comments could be dismissed as roughhousing, but the intensity and frequency have become disruptive. In fairness, I will say that Rusf10 has made a number of constructive comments at other article talk pages. Also, there is no basis whatsoever for sanctioning Volunteer Marek.- MrX 🖋 15:17, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by DrmiesI'm just baffled by some editors' opinions which betray a complete lack of knowledge of how science, publishing, and peer review works. That someone could think that an opinion piece in JAMA wouldn't be vetted is amazing to me, and that this would be equivalent to "something on the internet" is ... well. So in that sense, given that kind of lack of understanding, it may well be a good idea to ban them from sensitive areas. I just looked at all the opposes in the discussion, and one or two make the argument that it's UNDUE right now (User:Markbassett argued along those lines)--that's valid. What is different for this editor is not just the empty argument (they're not the only one) but also sort of nihilism which in the end undercuts RS, for starters. Drmies (talk) 16:35, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by SMcCandlishVolunteer Marek says, 'I ... object to the proposition that this academic source is in any way comparable to "opinion pieces" published as editorials in newspapers and magazines.' I looked and it is not an academic work. It's an opinion piece by academics published in the section for those in a journal. Just go read it. It is absolutely, positively an op-ed, not a science paper. The fallacy "It's in JAMA ergo it's a high-quality piece of academic research" is the same fallacy as "It's in The New York Times so it must be high-quality, secondary journalism." Publications have more than one kind of material, and an op-ed is an op-ed, an ad is an ad, a book review is a book review, and an advice column is an advice column (hint: all primary, not secondary). That an opinion piece in JAMA was vetted is immaterial; it's still opinion. NYT op-eds are subject to editorial review, too. The problem is the nature and purpose of the work. It's the kind of thing we'd use as "According to an op-ed by [Whoever], ...", iff the quotee was eminent and quoting their view was relevant and WP:DUE. Unlike some well-researched NYT op-eds I've seen, this one does not provide citations for the potentially secondary factual claims it makes, so we can't really evaluate them. It may be high-quality, but it's still primary. Both editors at the center of this are generally constructive. I'm inclined to stay out of the inter-editorial personality clash (the more recent-ish range of the WP:ARBAP2 topic area is a cesspool). I noticed at ARCA today that ArbCom is saying "Either have AE deal with this case-by-case, or open ARBAP3", and some parties lean toward the latter. I'm not sure there's much point in AE hearing mini-cases like this in the interim, but that's up to you all. This ultimately boiling down to treating an op-ed as if it were secondary science sourcing can be addressed head-on, however. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of our sourcing policies and guidelines. It's not constructive to try to bend our policies to say what they don't and fire up a huge pissing contest in the process. Just follow the damned policies. I think this may relate to a blind spot among the WP:MEDRS crowd more than to ARPAP2. It's a guideline subject to near-total control by a handful of editors and never subjected to thorough examination by the community. There's a serious conflict with policy in it which I've tried to address several times, and it directly relates to this matter: a belief that primary sources (even press releases and position statements) by respected medical publishers transmogrify somehow into "ideal" secondary sourcing. In a post today [21] at WP:VPPOL in a thread largely about ARBAP2, I explicated this in some detail – starting at "Even MEDRS has an error in it in this regard ..."). Update: Moved to essay page: WP:FMSP#MEDRS. I think this is worth RfCing, because the problems it's causing are clearly spreading from medical articles to other topics like politics.
Statement by KingsindianThis is mostly a content dispute. I fail to see how this behaviour rises to the level of sanctions. Rusf10 responded to an RfC and argued about the inclusion (or not) of an analysis by David Cutler. I mostly see good-faith arguments on the talk page by Rusf10. There is little or no disruption. The purpose of an RfC is to invite comments by a broad cross-section of people. This will necessarily include badly argued or incorrect comments. Claiming that a person X "hates Trump" is not ideal and Rusf10 should refrain from saying that. However, it's rather a stretch to claim that this claim is a BLP violation. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:03, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
Statement by MjolnirPants@GoldenRing:"Peer review", like almost every other jargon term, has two distinct meanings. The first is a formal system of review by properly credentialed experts prior to publication as an article in a scientific or scholarly journal, which usually occurs in a well-defined system, with rules and procedures. The second is that someone who knows what they're talking about read it and was okay with publishing it. This piece certainly meets the second definition, and I'll eat my shoe if anyone can prove otherwise. JAMA forums and the associated blog is not a Forbes site, where any popular enough writer can write about whatever they want. Hell, their about us page explicitly states that "we have assembled a team of leading scholars" to write the articles that appear therein, and I've yet to see an article on that site that isn't on a subject the author has immaculate credentials in. While these articles are subject to the usual disclaimers ("the opinions herein are those of the authors...," the same disclaimers that cover a huge swathe of our sources), JAMA clearly directed an effort to produce these articles. They were subject to editorial oversight. Let me reiterate that last, with some relevant details pointed out: They were subject to the editorial oversight of one of the most well-respected publishers of scientific literature in the world. To refer to that as "peer-reviewed" in an offhand way is unusual, but hardly without precedent, and not even close to unjustifiable. Hell, with the phrase "Let me just say that..." Drmies was explicitly laying that out as a heuristic; he wasn't saying "this article was peer reviewed" (which is defensibly true, as I just pointed out) but "you can think of this article as peer-reviewed, for all intents and purposes." In light of that, your comments about Drmies look like a failure to AGF at best, and a blatant personal attack at worst. I'm going to give you the same advice I frequently give to brand new editors, because it seems you need it: don't be afraid to ask for clarification if someone says something confusing or inexplicable. A strawman is a strawman, whether you built it on purpose or not. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 04:45, 1 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by DlthewaveWe can certainly discuss the provenance of the source, and Rusf10 makes a reasonable point regarding peer review, but this is not how we discuss sources. Statement by Seraphim SystemI don't think the JAMA article is the greatest source for the statement Statement by Beyond My KenThis concerns me:I'm old enough to have lived through several periods of strong partisan divisions in this country, and I recognize that we're living through one of them now, perhaps the deepest one in many decades, but is concerns me that a Wikipedia editor would believe that simply because someone worked in some capacity in a Presidential administration, that automatically makes that person a die-hard Democrat, or Republican, or a liberal, or a conservative, to the extent that it totally overwhelms the credentials that got them the position in the first place.Yes, there are political hacks in all administrations, and some have more than others, but exceedingly few people in this country ever get called upon to work for the White House, and it's disheartening to think that any Wikipedia editor would believe that simply because someone answered that call to duty, they automatically chucked their learning, knowledge, good sense or morality out the window and became a blind automaton enslaved by Party dicta. Possibly that does happen to some who didn;t start out that way, but it can't (and shouldn't) be assumed that it happens to everyone, or even most of them. Just as we evaluate every source for reliability, each instance should be taken on an individual basis, determined by what is known about the person and their qualifications.To reject the views of apparently well-qualified people simply because of the assumption of bad faith based on their service in a Presidential administration or the like is simply wrong and should have no part in any discussion here on Wikipedia, where we should be (but aren't, unfortunately) above that sort of thing.So, in my opinion, if anything needs to come from this, a warning to Rusf10 that that kind of behavior is not acceptable here is that thing. Whether their other behavior is worthy of sanctioning, I have no opinion on, not having parsed the evidence sufficiently. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:54, 1 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by Sir JosephI echo everything Kingsindian said. I was hesitant to post anything, but I do feel that what KI said is what I wanted to say, among other stuff. I especially echo his part about Drmies' comment regarding Trumpers and about the "garbage" opinion, Sir Joseph (talk) 20:13, 2 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by PudeoSince the conduct of Drmies is being discussed as well, I was put off by his response to another editor with "I hear this all the time from gun nuts" at AR-15 style rifle (June 3 2018) Gun control is another topic covered by sanctions. GoldenRing is right here. --Pudeo (talk) 23:49, 3 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by Geogene"Gun nut" is a frequently used colloquialism, not a pejorative. I also think that digging an entire month into Drmies' edit history, and then complaining about something they said in a completely separate DS area, is unseemly. Geogene (talk) 00:27, 4 July 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Rusf10
|
Icewhiz
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Icewhiz
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- MyMoloboaccount (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:49, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Icewhiz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern Europe#Standard discretionary sanctions.Not complying with Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines in regards to Wikipedia:Do not create hoaxes, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and Wikipedia:Civility - entering information citing a source, which does not appear in the source, falsely claiming about a source.Icewhiz has engaged in falsification of sources, constant edit warring, ethnic based insults and remarks, and presenting the most tendentious and inflammatory remarks aiming at provoking other editors, as well as edits that can't be seen as anything other but attempts to stir up conflict and fights with other editors.
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 08:35, 10 June 2018Icewhiz falsified a source stating that villagers massacred by Soviet/Jewish unit were supposedly hunting down Jews.I checked the source and there is nothing about Naliboki village on page 280.There is mention about Jewish partisans raids in Naliboki Forest on page 283 and their attacks against local population and subsequent fights which authors show as example of change from victim to perpetrator role. Naliboki village and Naliboki forest are two different locations. To make it easier, I even uploaded a screenshot from the source in question showing that there is nothing about Naliboki villagers attacking Jews on page 280[23]. After pointing this out to him, Icewhiz claimed the statement about Naliboki village inhabitants hunting down Jews is on page 283. Here is the screen of page 283-nothing about inhabitants of Naliboki village doing such a thing[24].This is a gross falsfication of a source and serious accussation.
- 22:09, 28 June 2018 Here user Icewhiz removed information that Poles were target of genocide by Nazi Germany under the claim "unsupported by source"I have uploaded the screenshot of the source in question and underlined that indeed does state that there was genocide[25].
- 22:52, 28 June 2018 , Icewhiz claimed there is no mention of genocide in the source, and that Nazis didn't genocide Polish people, just "mass extermination of leadership" and "reprisal killings" which according to Icewhiz "wasn't genocide". Again this is falsification of the source, and inflamming of the discussion.
- "He's advancing polocaust, which is quite fringey" 20:02, 9 June 2018 Ethnic based deregatory term and statement that information about Nazi Germany engaging in genocide against Polish people is "advocating fringe polocaust". This is a gross violation of civility and a very disturbing ethnic based remark.
- Obviously, it is possible to find polophilic writers in English 18:04, 9 June 2018 (UTC) Ethnic based attack to discredit sources as non-reliable.
- I have seen him described as a "polophile" 9 June 2018 Ethnic based accussation to discredit a scholar as non-reliable source.
- Our article at present is a one-sided modern Polish narrative 14 March 2018.About about massacre of Polish villagers including women and children, where Icewhiz engages in ethnic based accussation and attributing a single view of the world to a nationality.
- 10 June 2018Stating that largest Polish anti-Nazi resistance group Home Army is responsible for deaths of 100,000-200,000 Jews, using a quote by controversial author that doesn't even have anything about Home Army in it.False sourcing, and falsification.
- 04:18, 22 June 2018 Stating that Polish civilians attacked in massacres and raids by Soviet and Jewish partisans were engaging in theft of Jewish property. Icewhiz's comment seems to be nothing more than attempt to provoke other editors here.
- we wouldn't add such a section to the Nazi Party 19 June 2018,Certainly - we describe crimes by the Schutzstaffel and Wehrmacht 12 June 2018.This has been repeated several times, and seems to have been aimed at provoking other editors.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 24 June 2018
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Icewhiz
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Icewhiz
In regards to the diffs above:
- I mis-cited the page number (280 instead of 283 - 280 being the start of the chapter and I was using the Google auto-citation). Naliboki village is in Naliboki forest. The source is clearly referring to the well known massacre in Naliboki village, as is clear from the citations (which refer to the village). After this was challenged on this basis (forest vs. village) - I dropped this edit/source.
- This - is the source. It discusses two viewpoints - the top of the page (and bottom of previous page) - presents the widely held view that Poles&SU-citizens were not victims of the Holocaust&genocide. The bottom of the page (which is in the screenshot) discusses the view that Poles were victims of the Holocaust&genocide. The highlighted portion in the screen shot is not in N&N's voice, but rather attributed to "those who would include Polish and Soviet...".
- The same source (The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust) - in presenting the majority view does not use genocide - it does however state "mass extermination" of natural leaders and reprisal killings. The minority viewpoint, presented below, does use genocide. The authors of the Columbia guide do not include Poles in the Holocaust(conclusion - here - [27]).
- Polocaust/Polokaust (a contraction of "Polish Holocaust") is advanced by the Polish state, see Gebert, Konstanty. "Projecting Poland and its past: Poland wants you to talk about the “Polocaust”." Index on Censorship 47.1 (2018): 35-37.Reuters: Polish minister says backs idea to create 'Polocaust' museum - it is not derogatory - it refers to treating Poles as victims of the Holocaust.
- This term has been used by RSes (see 6), and is not based on ethnicity but on a viewpoint favorable to a particular side.
- I said I saw this individual described as such in several source, and provided a single source to back this up - [28]. There are additional sources - Atlantic, Macleans. Discussing the POV of a source, particularly one described as biased in other sources, is essential for achieving NPOV - by balancing use of sources (as opposed to using sources from only one POV).
- I provided sources. Here's another- per Foreign Policy
Facts about the raid are heavily disputed, including whether the villagers were acting in concert with the Nazis
.[29]. I will note that academic RSes that have covered this have treated this incident as "word-code" in right wing media -Nevertheless, after the intense campaign to publicise these crimes during the Jedwabne controversy, Koniuchy and Naliboki started functioning as word-codes, symbols of Jewish savagery and refusal to repent for `their' atrocities.
[30]. Per one academic RS the investigation into this was seen a "contemptible farce" in most of the world.[31] To adhere to NPOV, our article should reflect coverage of this incident in top-notch sources - and not as it is portrayed in a particular type of media. - I provided a direct quotation of Gross (who in most of the world is considered one of the leading scholars (and certainly one of the most cited) in the topic area in the past 20-30 years) - that refers to Poles as a whole (of which the AK was the largest armed group) - I should have chosen a better source referring specifically to the AK - which I indeed did - in the next post and added an example.
- Again - this is "word code" incident (see 7), which is much disputed (A Soviet unit (per witness accounts possibly with some Jews in it - some former residents of the town) attacked the village (which housed a self-defense unit (which was also cover for AK) sanctioned by the Nazi authorities - a unit which resisted partisan requisition attempts), was fired upon (around 6 Soviets were killed), and after the firefight - executed mainly men and teenagers who were mainly members of the unit in the village (in all ~127-130 villagers died - mainly male teenagers and men, but also 3 women and a 10 year old child). I did not say "theft" - I said took over. As might be seen in USHMM Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, 1933-1945, vol II pages 1185,1203-4,1229,1248 - there were Jewish residents in Naliboki prior to 1943 - if we are tying these former Jewish residents (based on some of the witness testimony), this is possibly relevant background.
- I provided a patently absurd example - which I explained (sourced) in here and here - in regards to a section with OR (the source was a list of names) that misrepresented Yad Vashem's award. I will quote Joshua D. Zimmerman -
"Understanding of the Polish Underground’s wartime record was overwhelmingly negative. Holocaust survivor testimony and scholarly studies argued that partisans of the Home Army — those clandestine forces in Nazi-occupied Poland loyal to the Polish government-in-exile — were just as dangerous to Jews as were the Nazis. And the specific cases on which these claims were made were no doubt accurate"
[32] (and will note that Zimmerman has a more nuanced view - he differentiates between the most positive pre-June 1943 command of Rowecki, and the subsequent negative Bór-Komorowski as well as differentiating by area/individuals). This is a widely used comparison (in regards danger to Jews) made by several scholars of Holocaust studies - and should not be seen as offensive (and in fact - if an editor rejects Holocaust studies scholarship based on "offensiveness" - that is a serious issue).
Icewhiz (talk) 07:05, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
- I would like to point out the following misrepresentations, in article main-space, by MyMoloboaccount:
- Revision as of 22:41, 19 June 2018 - highly questionable source (
"the most vocal attack ... by the conservative newspaper Rzecpospolita, which has, in turn, been accused of anti-Semitism"
[33]) - edit misrepresents the source as"Other witness statements by Jewish members"
while the source describes a single statement by a daughter (not a witness) describing what her mother told her. - Revision as of 22:28, 19 June 2018- not in the source (which itself - is a magazine intended for youth).
- Revision as of 22:12, 19 June 2018 - source does not use "war crimes".
- Revision as of 22:04, 19 June 2018 - source described meeting between AK district command and Lenin (Komsomol) brigade from the Lipiczany forest (a different location, which incidentally also housed other Jewish units). According to the source the discussion was about Jewish partisans and partisan groups - not about the Bielski group - in the edit this statement about Jewish partisans in general was modified to Beiski -
Polish resistance officially complained to Soviets about alleged rapes and murders,including murder of young children, committed by Bielski's partisants and asked Soviet command to stop sending them for food requisitions
. - Revision as of 21:46, 19 June 2018 - source describes the poor combat value of the Zorin and Bielski family groups - in the edit this becomes "Jewish partisans" at large - everywhere in the Soviet sphere of influence.
- Revision as of 22:41, 19 June 2018 - highly questionable source (
- Icewhiz (talk) 07:44, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Beyond My Ken
It's getting monotonous, I know, but I'm commenting to point out yet again the number of AE complaints that have been filed in the last few months over the Poland in WWII issue, indicating, yet again, that admins really need to step up their game and more aggressively police this subject area, which falls squarely under ARBEE. And, once again, I renew my suggestion that topic bans for the regular combatants on both sides of the dispute would be a good start. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:36, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by SMcCandlish
Concur with BMK, and think some other editors' activities in the area need some examination. Virtually every time I run across a talk-page mention of Poland, it's about continued disputation over events leading up to, during, and shortly after WWII. It's as if the place did not exist outside this time frame. I get a lot of WP:FRS invites to RfCs, and Poland shows up strangely (too) frequently, always about the same stuff, and featuring too many of the same squabblers. I'm not an editor at these articles other than gnome stuff, and don't have an opinion on the pro/con this and that stuff (it really does look hard to research with certainty, and I don't have a background in it). So, I tried to moderate, for example, at Talk:Blue Army (Poland) from 2015–2017 (archives 4–6), and eventually just gave up. I've mostly stayed away for a year-ish, so any diffs I have are too old to be actionable. Just want to chime in that the perception of a .pl-related WP:ARBEE issue is not illusory. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:47, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Kingsindian
Most of the diffs above look like good-faith content disputes to me. I haven't edited in Poland-related matters, but I have some experience with Ukraine-related matters, where the same issue of "whether the Ukrainian famine was genocide" is debated (both by scholars and by Wikipedia). Calling something "genocide" is obviously a value judgement, and scholars often disagree. The case about Naliboki should be treated as a good-faith argument, imo. Thus, I feel that no sanctions are warranted here.
I would like to, however, like to say to Icewhiz that comparing the Home Army to the Nazi party is a needlessly provocative statement, and is not anywhere near the scholarly consensus. There were segments of the Home Army which killed Jews, and some which collaborated with the Nazis, but the overall stance was neither of collaboration nor exterminationist anti-Semitism. For instance, Joseph Rothschild notes: The Polish Home Army was by and large untainted with collaboration.
(Return to Diversity p. 55). One can argue about exclusion of some text, or the overall tone and emphasis in the article, without this sort of gratuitous and unfair comparison.
I do not have any opinion about the broader matter. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 07:53, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Icewhiz
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.