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Revision as of 19:44, 4 February 2012
February 2012
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Ucucha 19:44, 4 February 2012 [1].
Baldwin of Forde
I am nominating this for featured article because ... once more, something wicked this way comes... oh, wait. Not so wicked, as Baldwin was not noted for the wickedness of his life or anything exciting like that. Baldwin's a rather common exemplar of the English medieval ecclesiastic - lived his life well in conformity to the expectations, served his king and his church, went on Crusade, got involved in a few disputes but was generally considered a "good egg" by most. Not a saint by any means, but not a bad boy either, Baldwin was an author as well as a cleric. He's had a Good Article review, a very exacting peer review, plus a final polish by Malleus. This is how the article looked when I started editing it, so it's been substantially rewritten and expanded during my time with the article. Note that although I'm participating in the wikicup, and there will probably be a bot slapping a notice about that on this nom, I will not be claiming this article for the competition, as most of the work on it took place prior to 2012. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:03, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sources and images but no spotchecks. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:08, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Exter or Exeter?
- "From the Conquest to the Death of King John" or "From the Conquest to the Death of John"?
- Domesday to Magna Carta or Domesday Book to Magna Carta?
- FN 7 vs 26
- Be consistent in whether page ranges are abbreviated or not
- Check for minor inconsistencies like doubled periods
- Be consistent in whether ISBNs are hyphenated or not
- Where in Belgium was Sharpe published?
- Does the Duggan in Further reading not have a first name or initial?
- Single image is unproblematic. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:08, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed everything but the double period - it's a fault of the template, I'm not going to make the data field inaccurate by not including the period after the initial. Also - Sharpe's Handlist does not give a further location in Belgium other than "Belgium". I gotta say though - asking for all hyphenated or all unhyphenated ISBNs is getting into the range of way out there with consistency - I did it, but only because I was able to - most online book databases do not hyphenate and I'm not going to kill myself to find hyphens. They make it easier for people to read them, that's why I include them, but I'm more inclined to just strip ALL the ISBNs out of the references if I'm going to have to do this every time at FAC. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:28, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Support on the basis of my peer review, here. I raised the question of the appropriateness of the "Legacy" title; there's precious little "legacy" there, the section is mainly a sort of appraisal of his nature (distinguished scholar, gloomy and nervous, sounds familiar). But I couldn't suggest an alternative title so I'm not pressing the point, though if someone can think of something more apposite, that would be small improvement. Brianboulton (talk) 16:56, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I couldn't think of one either, Brian. If I had, I'd have gladly changed it (and if anyone comes up with one, please suggest it...) Thanks for the excellent peer review, by the way, and thank you for the review here (also thank you Nikki - it's been a wild couple of days here ... I'm a bit cranky.) Ealdgyth - Talk 17:03, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- And I'm quite nitpicky, so call it even. The reason I asked about Sharpe was because you have another book from the same publisher that does have a more specific location. As to "Legacy", I've seen "Image", "Reception" and "Reputation" used for that type of section, although I'm not sure I'd prefer any of those here. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:53, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Another excellent piece of work. Very comprehensive but possible to follow what is going on and no obvious problems with jargon, etc. A few very, very minor points, none of which affect my support. --Sarastro1 (talk) 19:21, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Minor picky point, but quite a few sentences begin "In 11XX…". Not sure much can be done that is not contrived, but it is slightly repetitive.
- "is said to have sent Baldwin to Italy to study law.[5] Baldwin was also said to have taught at Exeter, although this is not substantiated by any contemporary record." Fussy point, but who said it? I assumed that it was contemporary "gossip" or hearsay, but it can't be if it is not in the records.
- "after his father's death": Baldwin's or Bartholemew's?
- "Eventually all the prominent ecclesiastics and monastic houses of Europe were forced into choosing sides in the dispute.": More of a personal query than anything to change: was it really such a big deal? It seems quite a local affair, even by contemporary standards. --Sarastro1 (talk) 19:21, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed the second and third points, and on the fourth - yeah, you and I would consider it very minor but it wasn't in the time frame - it engaged most of the western European ecclesiastics at some point or another. The Becket cult was HUGE in medieval Europe - not just in England, but across most of modern France, Spain, Germany, Italy and Scandinavia - and any intimation that the body might be moved was big news. The Christ Church monks were not afraid to use the revenues that came in from the cult to protect their cash cow - at the first sign that they might possibly lose their stranglehold on the cult, they started screaming bloody murder throughout Europe and that usually created quite a ruckus. I haven't really thought that the episode needed much more detail - but yes, it was a big deal that caused quite a lot of grief to Baldwin - and his successor Huber Walter also. Walter had to drag himself before the king a couple of times because relations got so bad with his cathedral chapter (the monks of Christ Church - i.e. the monks who formed the clergy staffing Canterbury Cathedral). Thank you for the review! Ealdgyth - Talk 20:37, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support Comments reading through now on prose and comprehensiveness....Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:04, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In the Ecclesiastical career section, I'd swap the third and fourth sentences as the third seems to postdate the fourth (?) - another option is to make the fourth sentence have the pluperfect tense "... 1138 to 1155, had sent Baldwin to Italy to study law".
- I'm copyediting as I go (please revert if I guff the meaning) -
there are alot of "Baldwin"s throughout the text. I am seeing if we can do without a few without losing context.
The first three paras in the Writings and studies section all start "Baldwin...", which is a tad repetitive but I am having difficulty thinking of alternatives. One consideration might be to append para 3 (collaborations) onto para 1 (works), and move para 2 (sermons) to after this. Anyway, have a play.
I'm in two minds whether the quoted bits in the first two sentences of the Legacy section are worth the quote marks or better reworded without.
Otherwise looking spiffy as usual, eh what? Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:41, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I got the first one, the copyediting looks fine, Malleus fixed the third one, and I think I lean towards the exact quotes for those - there are only three in the section, so rather than tax my poor brain thinking of paraphrases... definitely want to keep the Saladin one at least. Thanks for the review! Ealdgyth - Talk 12:58, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You mention a "FitzNigel" at one point; do you mean "FitzNeal" instead? Ucucha (talk) 23:07, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, they are the same person - some folks use fitzNigel, some use fitzNeal. Do I use both? Ealdgyth - Talk 23:08, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
`
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Ucucha 19:44, 4 February 2012 [2].
Japanese aircraft carrier Akagi
- Nominator(s): Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 21:07, 11 January 2012 (UTC) and Cla68[reply]
This is the third article on Japanese aircraft carriers that I've written with Cla68. This ship was originally designed as a battlecruiser, but was converted into an aircraft carrier during the mid-1920s after the Washington Naval Treaty limited new capital ship construction in 1922. The ship participated in several iterations of Japan's war with China during the 1930s and was very active in the first part of the Pacific War. She was one of the carriers that conducted the attack on Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941 and supported many of the Japanese attacks on Allied forces and territories through June 1942 when she was sunk during the Battle of Midway. The article received a very thorough MilHist A-class review last October and we're hopeful that not much work remains to pass this FAC. Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 21:07, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Please check the edit summaries. - Dank (push to talk)
- Good to see you back at FAC, Cla68.
- I'm confused by the second paragraph of Propulsion.
- Rewritten.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:32, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Otherwise, so far so good down to where I stopped in the A-class review, Reconstruction. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 22:10, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:08, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Gardiner and Grey or Gray?
- Why not include both authors for Hata citations?
- FN 37: which Prange?
- FN 41: punctuation
- Be consistent how citations with multiple non-consecutive pages or ranges are handled, and whether ranges are abbreviated or not
- FN 44: missing a dash
- Izawa Yasuho or Yasuho Izawa?
- Are "Naval Institute Press" and "United States Naval Institute" the same thing?
- Yes, but the name changed over the decades. They are correct as given in the book.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:48, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Be consistent in whether ISBNs are hyphenated or not. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:08, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support on prose/detail/structure at this stage
- No DAB links or EL probs according to the toolbox checkers.
- Having reviewed and copyedited this at its MilHist ACR, I've gone right through the article and CE'd again as a fair few edits have been made since.
- No image checks as yet and, although refs look reliable, no spotchecks either -- will do so as/when I can. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:01, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Went through each image and licensing looks reasonable to me, however I wouldn't mind an expert double-checking one or two that are scanned from American books but assert Japanese PD without author details, e.g. File:Akagi AA gun position.jpg and File:Akagi Pearl Harbor Second Wave Prep.jpg.
- Checking over the online sources, there's not much to spotcheck in any case. Knowing the nominators as I do, I'm prepared to AGF on the info presented. However I'm a bit dubious about the Tully website. I can see it's purported to be by someone who's published at least one book, but that doesn't necessarily tell me that the site itself is wholly reliable... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:31, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure that I understand what your qualms are, Ian, but Tully's written or co-written two books on battles of the Pacific War and he wrote the record of movement that we cite here. It meets all the requirements of a highly reliable source as far as I see.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:25, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments Read it for clarity and any obvious RW technical issues. Nice article. Two notes, matters of opinion rather than issues, no need to change on my account. In the lead and the last paragraph, is "scuttle" the right word to use for sinking by other ships? The use of "IJN" extensively throughout the article to refer to the Japanese navy for me kept stopping the flow of the reading. Nice article. North8000 (talk) 17:10, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. The most common use of scuttle is for a ship to sink itself, but it is also appropriate when another ship of the same nationality/side sinks it to prevent capture, etc. I'll look again at the usage of IJN.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:48, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I think it's fairly common in military literature to spell-out the formal title of an organization (Imperial Japanese Navy), then use an acronym (IJN) to refer to it for the rest of the article, book, or essay. I understand that in most other literature, however, using acronyms that way is not necessarily pleasing to the eye. I'm fine with trying to use other words, such as "the Japanese navy", or something like that if you feel it would read better. Cla68 (talk) 05:56, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support, and I don't have much to add. It is very well-written and very interesting. I appreciate the opportunity to read it. I made a few minor changes as I read. My only real beef would be the application of WP:ORDINAL, especially in the World War II section. In the places in the narrative where you are writing "x of these aircraft, x of these other aircraft" and so on, I recommend you always express the numbers as numerals. WP:ORDINAL refers to comparative quantities, but I think it applies here since you are comparing numbers of different kinds of planes.
- Image review: all images used are in the public domain.
--Laser brain (talk) 01:58, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support Based on general quality of the article; not review of all FA criteria. North8000 (talk) 02:30, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Support on all criteria except 3, which is covered above. 1a- made some of my own tweaks, but am a fan of it overall. 1b- as far as I can tell (speaking as a Milhist/ship editor), the article does not omit any major facts or events. 1c- I'm sure there's more out there on the Battle of Midway,at least, but P&T's Shattered Sword is the definitive reference on that battle, and the rest fulfills the "representative survey of the relevant literature" requirement. 1d- no POV is jumping out at me. 1e- is stable. 2- has a lead, is sectioned, has consistent citations. 4- ~6,000 words is a tad longer than average (from what I've seen) but is far from atypical. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 00:50, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Ucucha 19:44, 4 February 2012 [3].
South American dreadnought race
- Nominator(s): Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:26, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This article tells the curious story of a dreadnought arms race between Argentina, Brazil, and Chile. In 1907, Brazil changed a previous naval order to include three dreadnoughts – a new design of warships that was much more powerful than any earlier naval vessel. The Argentine government, Brazil's chief rival, had a major problem with that, so they responded by ordering two larger dreadnoughts. Chile, Argentina's rival and major naval competitor in the 1890s, didn't like this new development, so they ordered two super-dreadnoughts. The costs for these ships were staggeringly astronomical. The Argentine ships' original cost was a fifth – that's 20%, folks – of the entire Argentine budget. Making everything worse, later in-service costs would easily add up to more than half the original cost over the first five years. The whole ride came to a crashing halt when WWI hit, which was probably a good thing for the countries involved, but the dreadnoughts received by the countries were used through the Second World War.
I hope you find this topic as interesting as I have. This article, the last in a series on South American dreadnoughts, has been about seven months in the making, and I have received help from many people in crafting it. Lecen bought and provided translations of the chief Portuguese-language book in this area, and I've received copyediting assistance from Dank, John, and Drmies. Fifelfoo validated most of the sources and did a thorough close-plagiarize check, which eventually ended up as a Bugle op-ed. The article went through a Milhist A-class review in June 2011. I'd love to hear any feedback you all have. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:26, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I love it, well done for your hard work. I would still like to tinker with some of the language; I don't think "pan out" or "stymied" strike quite the right tone. --John (talk) 10:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Support; I have made some very minor adjustments to the prose and image formatting, and I think I now support. --John (talk) 13:26, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Support No qualms here. Buggie111 (talk) 14:34, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I changed a few bits of clunky prose and I'm looking at more. I will relay my further concerns in a bit. Binksternet (talk) 17:59, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The article title first made me think that the ships were raced, you know, a speed trial with a winner declared. This is actually an arms race, so perhaps the article should be moved to South American dreadnought arms race, South American dreadnought purchasing clash, South American dreadnought rivalry or similar. That last one is succinct. Binksternet (talk) 21:32, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, the article is about an arms race, so it has to be at this title or your first suggestion. I don't see the current title as a major issue, but I'm open to changing the title if other non-milhisters see this the same. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Too easily read wrong: "by passing a large" throws the reader who may at first see "bypassing". Binksternet (talk) 21:32, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]- I removed this part of the sentence, as it simplifies the introduction. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
1906 twice in the same sentence! The second appearance should be "later the same year" or similar. Binksternet (talk) 21:32, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]- I've copyedited this bit and must thank you for catching an embarrassing typo (I meant 1905). Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You cannot have a "naval-limiting pact". What is probably intended is "naval-power-limitation pact". Binksternet (talk) 21:32, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]- Is there a clear difference between the two? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- "Naval limiting" is not used in books to discuss naval treaties while "naval limitation" is used. Binksternet (talk) 14:59, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Reworded. - Dank (push to talk) 11:51, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Got your meaning now, sorry! Thanks Dank. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:06, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Reworded. - Dank (push to talk) 11:51, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- "Naval limiting" is not used in books to discuss naval treaties while "naval limitation" is used. Binksternet (talk) 14:59, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Is there a clear difference between the two? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Clear from context: "repeated major alterations" does not need "major" because we already know the keel was ripped up. Binksternet (talk) 21:32, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]- Fixed Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The lead section should tell the reader whether any of the South American battleships were in violent action, firing their guns in anger. Binksternet (talk) 21:32, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- That's really out of scope for the lead, I think, as it would mess with the chronological order and make the paragraphs harder to read. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The information should be in the article body at least. Binksternet (talk) 14:59, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I have a sentence or two on the Revolt of the Lash, though the little gunfire in that is left unstated. The only other extremely violent action was in the 20s when Sao Paulo fired on a rebelling fort. That may be out of scope too, as the race was only from 1904 to 1914, and anything after than is really just an epilogue that rightfully limits itself to potential rekindlings of the naval race. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:06, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, out of scope. The only relevant gunfire would be one dreadnought in action against another. Binksternet (talk) 23:31, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I have a sentence or two on the Revolt of the Lash, though the little gunfire in that is left unstated. The only other extremely violent action was in the 20s when Sao Paulo fired on a rebelling fort. That may be out of scope too, as the race was only from 1904 to 1914, and anything after than is really just an epilogue that rightfully limits itself to potential rekindlings of the naval race. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:06, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The information should be in the article body at least. Binksternet (talk) 14:59, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- That's really out of scope for the lead, I think, as it would mess with the chronological order and make the paragraphs harder to read. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The article title first made me think that the ships were raced, you know, a speed trial with a winner declared. This is actually an arms race, so perhaps the article should be moved to South American dreadnought arms race, South American dreadnought purchasing clash, South American dreadnought rivalry or similar. That last one is succinct. Binksternet (talk) 21:32, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Nearly there I made a couple of tweaks,
am curious as to how given the contemporary lack of reliable earthquake prediction technology an earthquake in 1908 would cause a 1907 recession, especially if the 1906 Valparaíso earthquake was not worthy of mention.:) Also there is an aside in the footnotes about an Argentinian policy of being able to fight both Chile and Brazil. Such a policy would probably be worth an earlier mention, especially if they were trying to follow it.It might also be worth mentioning somewhere the size of other Latin American navies. Peru has not always had good relations with Chile and Brazil borders all of them bar Ecuador and Chile. ϢereSpielChequers 21:12, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]- He actually says "Chile's entrance into the South American naval race had been deferred because of adverse economic conditions. The collapse of the nitrate market in 1907, and a disastrous earthquake in 1908 had brought on a severe financial depression." but I wonder if we can assume he meant the 1906 quake? It seems obvious what he meant, at least to me. I don't see the footnote you are talking about, only a list of tonnages, and Argentina certainly never had such a policy or they would have gone bankrupt :-) They certainly had to be among the naval powers to compete with the Chilean Navy or the Brazilian Navy, but not both. Other Latin American navies at the time were tiny compared to the three main powers. Peru bought a ridiculously obsolete armored cruiser, Dupuy de Lôme, in 1912, but never took possession of it, so they were left with two new scout cruisers that had been completed in 1906 and 07. By 1914, they had a grand total of two cruisers, one destroyer, two submarines (mostly useless for want of spare parts), and other assorted ancient warships including an 1850-built wooden(!) frigate that was a training ship. Also, Peru is the only other South American navy worthy of being listed by Conway's in the continent's section. A few others are listed at the back of the book, but that's the realm of such powerful countries like Morocco, San Salvador, and Zanzibar. :-) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I wouldn't be so sure that the recession was in 1907, on my reading of that source it may have been, or it could have been a year or so later. Better to leave it undated; Something along the lines of "Due to a recession caused by x in 06 and y in 07 Chile postponed her naval plan till 10."
- He actually says "Chile's entrance into the South American naval race had been deferred because of adverse economic conditions. The collapse of the nitrate market in 1907, and a disastrous earthquake in 1908 had brought on a severe financial depression." but I wonder if we can assume he meant the 1906 quake? It seems obvious what he meant, at least to me. I don't see the footnote you are talking about, only a list of tonnages, and Argentina certainly never had such a policy or they would have gone bankrupt :-) They certainly had to be among the naval powers to compete with the Chilean Navy or the Brazilian Navy, but not both. Other Latin American navies at the time were tiny compared to the three main powers. Peru bought a ridiculously obsolete armored cruiser, Dupuy de Lôme, in 1912, but never took possession of it, so they were left with two new scout cruisers that had been completed in 1906 and 07. By 1914, they had a grand total of two cruisers, one destroyer, two submarines (mostly useless for want of spare parts), and other assorted ancient warships including an 1850-built wooden(!) frigate that was a training ship. Also, Peru is the only other South American navy worthy of being listed by Conway's in the continent's section. A few others are listed at the back of the book, but that's the realm of such powerful countries like Morocco, San Salvador, and Zanzibar. :-) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Re "an honest and respectable Government {{sic}}" Whose sic is this and why?
- I can't find the sentence I thought I saw about Argentina, so I'm striking that as a senior moment.
- I think you'll find that it might be worth mentioning Peru and specifically the Naval Campaign of the War of the Pacific as part of the background. Your story does start in the 1870s, it even mentions that war, and even if Peru never competed in the naval race afterwards she certainly had a fleet in that war. As for the rest, if they never had significant fleets during this era then it would in my view make sense to say something like: In the decades after the defeat of the Peruvian navy in the war of the Pacific, only three South American countries, Argentina, Brazil and Chile, maintained significant navies.
- ϢereSpielChequers 19:00, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Done.
- It was for the capitalization of "Government". Too minor to include, or can I make it lowercase as an acceptable typographical change? (based on WP:MOSQUOTE I think it is, but I can revert if necessary)
- I'll use Scheina and add this in the next few days! Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:06, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Added. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:50, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Images
- File:Hms-eagle-1942.jpg - The status of this image was questioned on the Eagle FAC (specifically, how do we know it's Crown Copyright?) and removed from that article.
- File:ARALibertad1892-MNPB.jpg - If we don't know the author or publication date, how do we know it's PD in the US or anywhere else?
- File:Barao do rio branco 00.jpg - Same here, no author or original publication, only a publication from 2005.
- Everything else checks out ok. Parsecboy (talk) 21:16, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I think I'll have to remove the first and third images. For the second, Argentina's copyright law is rather open, but I'll need to find a place where the image has been published. Thanks Parsec! Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I hope you don't mind if I comment this one: this is a photo of the Baron of Rio Branco taken around 1898 during his trip to Europe as the head of a Brazilian diplomatic mission. The identity of the photographer has not survived. However, since he was a professional photographer, I find hardly possible that he may have survived past 1941. The Baron of Rio Branco himself died in 1912, and other members of his generation survived at amost until the 1920s. --Lecen (talk) 18:34, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Hmm, we still have to prove that it's PD in the US though, which means a publishing date (ugh). What do you think of me uploading the image here, which is almost certainly an official portrait and covered under commons:Template:PD-Brazil-Gov? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 23:40, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- That's a possibility. Unfortunately, I don't have a book with photos of him during this period, only earlier. There is a great photo of him at Commons with Brazilian President Campo Sales and Argentine President Julio Roca. But I believe it wouldn't be useful, since the photographer is also unknown. --Lecen (talk) 00:42, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Hmm, we still have to prove that it's PD in the US though, which means a publishing date (ugh). What do you think of me uploading the image here, which is almost certainly an official portrait and covered under commons:Template:PD-Brazil-Gov? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 23:40, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I hope you don't mind if I comment this one: this is a photo of the Baron of Rio Branco taken around 1898 during his trip to Europe as the head of a Brazilian diplomatic mission. The identity of the photographer has not survived. However, since he was a professional photographer, I find hardly possible that he may have survived past 1941. The Baron of Rio Branco himself died in 1912, and other members of his generation survived at amost until the 1920s. --Lecen (talk) 18:34, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Have all the image issues been resolved? Ucucha (talk) 19:23, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, they should be now. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:45, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I think I'll have to remove the first and third images. For the second, Argentina's copyright law is rather open, but I'll need to find a place where the image has been published. Thanks Parsec! Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- On an unrelated note to the above, why do you use parenthetical references for the block quotes?
- Also, wouldn't the Argentine ships Libertad and Independencia be better referred to as coastal defense ships rather than battleships? That's how Conway's 1860-1905 classifies them. Parsecboy (talk) 23:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Chicago 13.68 says "The source of a block quotation is given in parentheses at the end of the quotation and in the same type size."
- I think they were popularly classified and thought of as battleships at the time, but they were really more like the coast-defense ships of the Nordic countries. I'm fine with them being called either one. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - not enough to oppose over or anything, but I can't help but feel that the current section headings are a bit melodramatic at the expense of encyclopedic-ness. Have you considered alternatives, perhaps "[Start of dreadnought race and ]Brazilian orders", "Argentina and Chile's[/Argentinian and Chilean] dreadnought orders", "Third Brazilian dreadnought" (for the three they correspond to, no suggested changes to the others)? What do you think?
- Also, I'm no opponent of non-repeating references in general, but I think the paragraph "At the beginning of the Second World War, ..."'s references get a bit lost because of the blockquote. Might it be a good idea to repeat the references next to note "N" so the reader realises which reference(s) cover that bit? Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 17:37, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, I'm trying to show that there were three distinct phases in the race. I have no objection to changing them, though. As for your second point, I think I forgot to add references when I first wrote the section. Whoops. Thanks for pointing this out. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 23:40, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. I was caught by surprise here. I wasn't aware that Ed was going to nominate this article so soon. Still, it's one wonderful piece of work and I can guarantee that all information here provided is correct. --Lecen (talk) 18:34, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks Lecen! Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 23:40, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:56, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Not sure the formatting used for the blockquote in Response is the best
- How so? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- It doesn't match that used elsewhere, and it's not clear what the square brackets represent. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:31, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- How so? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- What source was used for the Ships involved table?
- I originally included footnotes, but they looked ugly and distracted from the main purpose in preview. Most of them are from Conway's. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps add a note to that effect above or below the table? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:31, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added a note below the table, though w/o page numbers. If anyone really wanted to verify it, they're from the massive lists of statistics in Topliss, Scheina's Naval History appendix, and Scheina's ship statistic tables in Conway's. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:06, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps add a note to that effect above or below the table? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:31, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I originally included footnotes, but they looked ugly and distracted from the main purpose in preview. Most of them are from Conway's. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Might want to link "New London", as it's a place few will be familiar with
- It's only there to distinguish from other Day papers, so I feel that it'd be overlinking. Not a very strong feeling though. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Spaced ellipses (. . .) are considered deprecated in favour of unspaced (...)
- Just following Chicago again. :-) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- FN 1: date?
- As in, a specific date for the orthography change? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- No, I was attempting to refer to an endnote and didn't correct for the titling you used. It's fixed anyways, though. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:31, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- As in, a specific date for the orthography change? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Be consistent in the titling used for shortened citations - ex. Garrett, Scheina and FN1 vs 83
- The differences are because Garrett is a journal article by a named author, Scheina is a book by a named author, and En83 is a journal article without a specific author (annoyingly common in the early 1900s). Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I understand why these would be different from each other, but my concern is that they're different from themselves - for example, endnotes 3 and 11 refer to the same source, but one is titled "Beagle Channel," while the other is "Beagle Channel Dispute." Nikkimaria (talk) 23:31, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Done, sorry. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:06, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I understand why these would be different from each other, but my concern is that they're different from themselves - for example, endnotes 3 and 11 refer to the same source, but one is titled "Beagle Channel," while the other is "Beagle Channel Dispute." Nikkimaria (talk) 23:31, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The differences are because Garrett is a journal article by a named author, Scheina is a book by a named author, and En83 is a journal article without a specific author (annoyingly common in the early 1900s). Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Missing bibliographic info for English
- Added. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- No citations to "The Brazilian Dreadnoughts." International Marine Engineering
- Nice catch, I have stuff I can add from the article but apparently never did. Am adding it in now. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Check alphabetization of references list
- Done, I think. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn't know "British" came before "Breyer" ;-) Nikkimaria (talk) 23:31, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Don't tell my elementary teachers. ;-) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:06, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn't know "British" came before "Breyer" ;-) Nikkimaria (talk) 23:31, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Done, I think. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Navy or The Navy? Also, if (Washington) isn't part of the title, why is it included in shortened citations?
- "The" is generally omitted, so that's fixed. I suppose I don't need the disambiguator in short cites, though... Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Foreign-language sources should be identified as such
- FN 142, 149: formatting
- Fixed.
- be consistent in how page ranges are notated
- How so?
- For example, "240–253" but "249–63". Nikkimaria (talk) 23:31, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- How so?
- Almeida or de Almeida?
- Fixed. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- What is FGV? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:56, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I think that's the literal name of the publisher, although I forgot that the full name is "FGV Editoria". Thanks Nikki, your eagle eyes are always appreciated on my end. :-) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A few initial observations
- Every one of your online sources that I have checked (about half), and every book that I possess that touches on the topic, capitalises "Dreadnought" as a class of battleship (in the way that, say, "Spitfire" is a class of fighter aircraft). Why have you adopted the lower case form?
- Sources in foreign languages, such as Acorazado Almirante Latorre's Unidades Navales, should be identified as such.
- Direct links to external sources should not be in the text (see end of "Catalyst" section).
- There is a tendency to use citation strings (three, four, five in a row), sometimes to support fairly straightforward factual statements. Examples: "Even the departure of Moreno was marked by mishaps, as the ship sank a barge and ran aground twice.[95][96][97]"; "she was formally purchased on 9 September after the British Cabinet recommended it four days earlier.[76][101][102][103]". This leads to some unnecessary clutter in the texts; I am sure that not all of these citations are necessary.
Brianboulton (talk) 21:32, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- On your first question, "dreadnought" as a type of battleship (as opposed to pre-dreadnoughts) is frequently lower-case, as it's no more a proper noun than "van" or "truck" are. You may be seeing either references to Dreadnought, or simply people who don't know how proper and common nouns work. Parsecboy (talk) 23:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- That is a very unsatisfactory answer; please don't try to insult my intelligence. "Dreadnought" is not a general category noun similar to "truck" or "van"; it was an invented name, a nickname, to designate a specific type of warship with enhanced armaments. I have mentioned the parallel with "Spitfire"; another might be the name "Big Bertha" which depicts a type of First World War howitzer. As I have said, "Dreadnought" is capitalised in mainstreamm history books, and in all or nearly all of the online sources you are using. The Oxford Encyclopedic English Dictionary gives "Dreadnought" as the usual form. Are you seriously saying that all these are "simply people who don't know how proper and common nouns work"? There may be a case for using the lower-case form, but I suggest you give a little more thought and reason to your reply; I also await your responses to two other points. Brianboulton (talk) 11:25, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- ngram from books.google.com, definition from Oxford dictionaries, M-W. - Dank (push to talk) 12:57, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Brian, I wasn't insulting your intelligence. Like I said, "dreadnought" is a common noun, like "truck" and "car". The Supermarine Spitfire is a proper noun, because it refers to a specific type of airplane, and is not analogous to "dreadnought", which refers to a general type of warship, the same as "armored cruiser", "destroyer escort", and the like. A more accurate relationship would be "Spitfire is to fighter as HMS Bellerophon is to "dreadnought". As to the other two points, I'll leave those to Ed, whose FAC this is. Parsecboy (talk) 14:24, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Further hijacking this comment, please review MilHist style guide; perhaps Ed should consider a redirect from South American battleship race? Kirk (talk) 18:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- That's a tough one, as there was an earlier battleship race between Argentina and Chile in the 1890s (see the background to this article). Perhaps a dab page? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:31, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Per Parceboy, above: "Like I said, dreadnought" is a common noun" is merely your opinion; it does not become fact by reiteration and is disputable. I have referred to several authorities which favour capital D - let me give you another. The Shorter OED gives three definitions for "dreadnought": a heavy overcoat; a fearless person; a class of battleship. It gives the first two with lower case and the third with "D". I won't bother to cite more evidence, though I could. What I want is an answer to my original question: "Why have you adopted the lower case form", especially when sources that you quote capitalise it? Can you, or someone else, please answer this? Brianboulton (talk) 20:08, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I think three people answered you already so I will summarize: dreadnought as a common noun is used in multiple sources cited in this article, its the form used in multiple dictionaries linked by Dank, and its consistent with the project's style guide. Yes, capitalization of military terms is not consistent across all sources but I believe Ed has met the requirements of our project's style guide. Kirk (talk) 21:45, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- For example: dreadnought describing the Rio de Janeiro, in Conway's All the World's Ships
- Also, I randomly checked 8 books in our library for the term - 3 used 'dreadnought', 4 used 'Dreadnought' and one didn't have the term. Two were books by John Keegan, and each one used a different capitalization so even some authors/editors can't stay consistent! Kirk (talk) 22:40, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I can assure you that the printed Shorter OED does not say what the online version, linked above, says. But let that pass; your answer seems to be that both the lower case and capitalised versions are widely used, and you have come down in favour of the former. That's OK; you could have just said this when I initially asked. There are two other questions (see above) still unanswered (citation strings and in-text external link). I am also doing a prose review, and will post here soon. Brianboulton (talk) 00:11, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Most of my printed sources use the lowercase 'd'. Most of the online sources in this article are from 1905 to 1914ish, which was possibly before the term came into widespread use as a common noun. The citation strings tend to support different parts of the sentence. To use your first example, the sunken barge, running around once, and running aground twice are all different sources. The in-text external link is there because I don't have newspapers in the bibliography, meaning that readers would have to search for a link in the 150-odd list of citations (for why it's in-text, see my above reply to Parsecboy). Thanks for the review, Brian, and I look forward to your comments on the prose. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I understand that citation strings arise when the facts in a sentence require different citations. The problem can be reduced by bunching; for example, refs 41 to 44 could be bunched into a single citation, which would help to unclutter the text. I will do this for you experimentally; if you don't like it please revert, but you may feel it helps the reader. On the in-text external link, in what way is this different from the several other NYT citations you have? Why is this treated differently? As to my prose comments I will post these to the talkpage, otherwise this page will become unduly congested. Brianboulton (talk) 13:15, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The only issue I have is with consistency (bunching some together but not all). I could bunch all of them but there's be a bunch of repeated citations. The in-text link arise because Chicago 13.68 says "The source of a block quotation is given in parentheses at the end of the quotation and in the same type size." Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 10:47, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I understand that citation strings arise when the facts in a sentence require different citations. The problem can be reduced by bunching; for example, refs 41 to 44 could be bunched into a single citation, which would help to unclutter the text. I will do this for you experimentally; if you don't like it please revert, but you may feel it helps the reader. On the in-text external link, in what way is this different from the several other NYT citations you have? Why is this treated differently? As to my prose comments I will post these to the talkpage, otherwise this page will become unduly congested. Brianboulton (talk) 13:15, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Most of my printed sources use the lowercase 'd'. Most of the online sources in this article are from 1905 to 1914ish, which was possibly before the term came into widespread use as a common noun. The citation strings tend to support different parts of the sentence. To use your first example, the sunken barge, running around once, and running aground twice are all different sources. The in-text external link is there because I don't have newspapers in the bibliography, meaning that readers would have to search for a link in the 150-odd list of citations (for why it's in-text, see my above reply to Parsecboy). Thanks for the review, Brian, and I look forward to your comments on the prose. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I can assure you that the printed Shorter OED does not say what the online version, linked above, says. But let that pass; your answer seems to be that both the lower case and capitalised versions are widely used, and you have come down in favour of the former. That's OK; you could have just said this when I initially asked. There are two other questions (see above) still unanswered (citation strings and in-text external link). I am also doing a prose review, and will post here soon. Brianboulton (talk) 00:11, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Further hijacking this comment, please review MilHist style guide; perhaps Ed should consider a redirect from South American battleship race? Kirk (talk) 18:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Brian, I wasn't insulting your intelligence. Like I said, "dreadnought" is a common noun, like "truck" and "car". The Supermarine Spitfire is a proper noun, because it refers to a specific type of airplane, and is not analogous to "dreadnought", which refers to a general type of warship, the same as "armored cruiser", "destroyer escort", and the like. A more accurate relationship would be "Spitfire is to fighter as HMS Bellerophon is to "dreadnought". As to the other two points, I'll leave those to Ed, whose FAC this is. Parsecboy (talk) 14:24, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- ngram from books.google.com, definition from Oxford dictionaries, M-W. - Dank (push to talk) 12:57, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I used a short cite for the last block quote because the book was used in an earlier block quote. Should I expand it? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 18:59, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Brian, what's your preference? - Dank (push to talk) 19:27, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I've expanded them for the moment, at least. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:06, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry for the delay in responding. My position is that there should be one consistent referencing style for the article. I fail to see why the citation at the end of the blockquote in the "Catalyst" section is in the form of an external link, when elsewhere there are many standard citations to the New York Times and to other newspapers. Nor do I see a justification for the citations at the ends of the other blockquotes being in non-standard form. These should all be in short citation form, for consistency in accordance with MOS. This is an issue I believe must be addressed before the article is promoted. If you disagree, I suggest you ask Nikkimaria to adjudicate—she is wise on sourcing issues. I must apologise again for not having got very far with my prose review, details posted to the article talkpage. The points I raised there have been properly addressed; I doubt I'll have time to do much more in the course of this review, but would not wish to delay the promotion on that account. Brianboulton (talk) 20:17, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- No worries, I've had plenty of delays too. I've been following Chicago almost to the letter (only a couple exceptions e.g. ISBNs, JSTOR #'s, etc. aren't in Chicago, but I feel that they are necessary to fulfill Wikipedia's mission), and the blockquotes follow the style given by that style guide in Chapter 13. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:58, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry for the delay in responding. My position is that there should be one consistent referencing style for the article. I fail to see why the citation at the end of the blockquote in the "Catalyst" section is in the form of an external link, when elsewhere there are many standard citations to the New York Times and to other newspapers. Nor do I see a justification for the citations at the ends of the other blockquotes being in non-standard form. These should all be in short citation form, for consistency in accordance with MOS. This is an issue I believe must be addressed before the article is promoted. If you disagree, I suggest you ask Nikkimaria to adjudicate—she is wise on sourcing issues. I must apologise again for not having got very far with my prose review, details posted to the article talkpage. The points I raised there have been properly addressed; I doubt I'll have time to do much more in the course of this review, but would not wish to delay the promotion on that account. Brianboulton (talk) 20:17, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I've expanded them for the moment, at least. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:06, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Brian, what's your preference? - Dank (push to talk) 19:27, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - I scanned the delta between the A-review and I can't think of anything new. I'm pleased with the summary table! Kirk (talk) 18:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Heh, thanks, you're the reason it's there! Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- So far so good down to where I stopped, Brazil's fade and reemergence. I copyedited this for A-class, but I see there have been over 250 edits since then. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 23:26, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks Dank. Since the ACR I've added a bunch of citations to newspapers and journal articles from the time. Most of the prose should be the same, though. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- Actually, Eagle wasn't flush-decked at all as she had a prominent island. But she was the fastest large hull available to the Brits at that time that didn't require an expensive full-scale reconstruction to convert to an aircraft carrier.
- What's a shipwright?
- Why is there a hyphen here: New-York Tribune?
- What about Argentine post-war naval expansion plans? I know that they received a number of G-class destroyers from the Brits in the late 1930s.
- Combine cells rather than use ibid. Every cell other than ship and country needs cites.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:43, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed, nice catch.
- A ship designer.
- Not quite. Designers were practically management. Explain or link the term.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:51, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Found the issue – the source said "Shipwrights" (note the capital letter), so I believe he meant the Worshipful Company of Shipwrights. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 21:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- That could well be; all I know is that shipwrights were one of the types of workers building the ships, although I don't know off-hand their specific functions.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 23:43, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- This still needs to be dealt with.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:10, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- That's the name of the paper, see New-York Tribune
- Wow, I've never seen that spelling before despite a large number of references.
- They're included, look for "twelve destroyers (the Spanish-built Churruca class and the British-built Mendoza/Buenos Aires classes)" (the latter class is what you are referring to, I believe). The naval program took a long time to complete.
- Yep, I'd missed the brief Argentine section.
- I'm not quite sure how to get the row/col spans to work with that... I've included a general citation underneath the table, per Nikki and you. Having notes in the table was really distracting on preview when I first added it. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 09:06, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- It's easy enough. Add |rowspan=2 in front the cell which will cover both and delete the one that is now redundant. See the history for exactly what I did for this table. I agree that I'm not thrilled with spattering blue numbers over tables to cite everything, but see any of my or Parsecboy's FLCs for commentary why it's necessary. The main issue as you've done it here is that there are no page numbers; nobody wants to thumb through whole books looking to verify individual facts.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:49, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn't delete the redundant lines, hence why my attempt failed (never got past preview!) Thanks Sturm. I'll add page numbers later today or after the blackout. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:58, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Page numbers added. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:50, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn't delete the redundant lines, hence why my attempt failed (never got past preview!) Thanks Sturm. I'll add page numbers later today or after the blackout. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:58, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- It's easy enough. Add |rowspan=2 in front the cell which will cover both and delete the one that is now redundant. See the history for exactly what I did for this table. I agree that I'm not thrilled with spattering blue numbers over tables to cite everything, but see any of my or Parsecboy's FLCs for commentary why it's necessary. The main issue as you've done it here is that there are no page numbers; nobody wants to thumb through whole books looking to verify individual facts.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:49, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A number of items listed that are unclear as to whether they've been addressed. Attempting to sort it out, I checked the article and still see spaced ellipses-- not recommended by WP:MOS. Could you please clarify above what is done and not? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:04, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe everything has been addressed now. Spaced ellipses were answered above; Chicago recommends them. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:33, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- This is a settled issue on WP, Ed, at FAC and elsewhere. I've changed them to three dots per WP:ELLIPSES. I have no objection if you like Chicago formatting, but you can also add the formatting you like, then self-revert, so that you'll have a version that conforms to Chicago that you can point people to. - Dank (push to talk) 20:35, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The lead says: "Argentina's two dreadnoughts were handed over in 1915, as the United States remained neutral in the opening years of the war." That doesn't make sense without context. Also, the first paragraph of "Historiography" is uncited. Ucucha (talk) 20:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry for the delay, I missed this on my watchlist. I've resolved the ambiguity you mention – thanks! I can cite that paragraph if you'd like to challenge the information, but it's really a summation of many of the sources listed in the bibliography, so I'd essentially be citing the entire page range of each source. The sentence I can't cite from the article's references, "General maritime histories on the period (c. 1904–14) avoid the area and focus on the traditional powers, especially the Anglo-German arms race.", is pretty obvious to anyone who has read any popular maritime history book on the 20th century, so I don't think it needs a source. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 06:28, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for fixing that sentence. I'd like to hear some reviewers' opinions on whether or not the historiographical paragraph constitutes original research—I'm not sure. Ucucha (talk) 16:55, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- My personal opinion is that it's borderline, but it's just an extension of what I've done for the rest of the article. I'm simply drawing out facts from the various books, just in a different way (not historical facts, but facts from the books themselves). I'd welcome other assessments though, as I can see how others can think it is OR. As far as I know, there is no published historiography of the dreadnought race, even within a larger work; Morgan includes one for the Revolt of the Lash, but for the purposes of historiography, that is an entirely separate event. I may be able to include a bit more from Haag to address some of your concerns, but I'll need time to go back through his article. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 17:00, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The difference is that the books are secondary sources if you use them for facts about the race itself, but primary sources if used for historiographical analysis. Primary sources aren't necessarily unacceptable, though; I'll wait to see what others have to say. Ucucha (talk) 21:50, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- My personal opinion is that it's borderline, but it's just an extension of what I've done for the rest of the article. I'm simply drawing out facts from the various books, just in a different way (not historical facts, but facts from the books themselves). I'd welcome other assessments though, as I can see how others can think it is OR. As far as I know, there is no published historiography of the dreadnought race, even within a larger work; Morgan includes one for the Revolt of the Lash, but for the purposes of historiography, that is an entirely separate event. I may be able to include a bit more from Haag to address some of your concerns, but I'll need time to go back through his article. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 17:00, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for fixing that sentence. I'd like to hear some reviewers' opinions on whether or not the historiographical paragraph constitutes original research—I'm not sure. Ucucha (talk) 16:55, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. I had a comment or two for Ed, and those issues are all addressed. Drmies (talk) 19:50, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. A fascinating article. Very well researched and written, and deserving of promotion. Paul MacDermott (talk) 14:27, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Ucucha 23:30, 2 February 2012 [4].
Nyon Conference
I am nominating this for featured article because I feel that it is th emost thoroughly prepared of my articles to head into the process, which is just as well. Would be great to be in a position to feature it 75 years on, later this year. Has been Milhist A-class reviewed (here) and Dank's given it another look since. I can provide any of the journal articles on request. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 23:53, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I've finally found a picture from the Conference with the possibility of a FUR. Also, I've added and used as supplementary sources articles from The Times and The Manchester Guardian, which should help on coverage but comes as a technical detriment to the copyedit. Apologies to Dank for the non-preferable order of those two things, but they are only minor additions in terms of prose. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 12:32, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm away from home and don't have my Chamberlain references with me, but I'll do what I can and then doublecheck my Chamberlain bios in ten days. Purely stylistic, but why is Anthony Eden, the four times he is mentioned in the article always referred to by full name and he's linked three of them? Who attacked the German ships? Also, I'm afraid your reference to pirates may confuse the reader, what was really being dealt with was freebooters, no? And our article unrestricted submarine warfare doesn't mention Italy ... Just from a hasty reading, it strikes me you could use more context about European response to the Spanish Civil War ... Gotta catch a plane, more in a day or three.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:34, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I've rearranged the first paragraph to more quickly define "piracy" and explain why the term is used. I dealt with the "Eden" problem. - Dank (push to talk) 20:44, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added a sentence concerning "more context about European response to the Spanish Civil War" - namely pointing out Soviet intervention on the one hand, Italian and German on the other (the subtleties of the French response not suited to such a brief mention). Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 20:09, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I've rearranged the first paragraph to more quickly define "piracy" and explain why the term is used. I dealt with the "Eden" problem. - Dank (push to talk) 20:44, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm away from home and don't have my Chamberlain references with me, but I'll do what I can and then doublecheck my Chamberlain bios in ten days. Purely stylistic, but why is Anthony Eden, the four times he is mentioned in the article always referred to by full name and he's linked three of them? Who attacked the German ships? Also, I'm afraid your reference to pirates may confuse the reader, what was really being dealt with was freebooters, no? And our article unrestricted submarine warfare doesn't mention Italy ... Just from a hasty reading, it strikes me you could use more context about European response to the Spanish Civil War ... Gotta catch a plane, more in a day or three.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:34, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support on prose per standard disclaimer, having reviewed the changes made since I copyedited this last week (it was a request at WP:FACG). These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 20:45, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:25, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Check formatting of quotes within quotes in titles
- The Guardian didn't move to London until 1964
- Be consistent in how editions are notated. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:25, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I've corrected numbers 2 and 3, could you clarify which references you mean for #1? I've only found one to which this applies – "A Conditional Refusal: "Absolute Parity" Needed". Thanks, Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 18:08, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I seem to recall there having been two, but can't locate another, so I'll say just the one you mention. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:29, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I've corrected numbers 2 and 3, could you clarify which references you mean for #1? I've only found one to which this applies – "A Conditional Refusal: "Absolute Parity" Needed". Thanks, Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 18:08, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: although I am an entrant in this year's Wikicup, I will not be entering this nomination. I may, if this nomination shows that significant development is necessary, enter this article's hypothetical second nomination. But I hope it does not come to that. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 17:09, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OpposeArticle does not seem ready, presentation is confusing. I prepared specific comments for the first two sections, but it's present throughout. Suggest some work be done. Not certain it can be done during the course of this FAC.
- [A lot of comments archived to talk, may thanks to Wehwalt for his patience and attention to detail. I do so as to not put off further reviewers. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 17:07, 9 January 2012 (UTC)][reply]
- I think that's all, Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 20:58, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I've read through your comments. If I don't reply soon, it will be because I accept your answer; I will only mention specific things.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:36, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I have not checked sources or images; content with other things and checks with my own knowledge of Chamberlain's early foreign policy. I would get rid of the three red links, especially the one that includes the word "Admiral" as part of the name (good thing he went into the Navy, if that's really part of his name and a deed poll wasn't involved). Well done. No one can say I haven't put you through the wringer.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:49, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The "Admiral" link was an error, which I've fixed. The other two are in my opinion sufficiently defensible now that that one has been fixed. 17:20, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- Support I have not checked sources or images; content with other things and checks with my own knowledge of Chamberlain's early foreign policy. I would get rid of the three red links, especially the one that includes the word "Admiral" as part of the name (good thing he went into the Navy, if that's really part of his name and a deed poll wasn't involved). Well done. No one can say I haven't put you through the wringer.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:49, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I've read through your comments. If I don't reply soon, it will be because I accept your answer; I will only mention specific things.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:36, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I think that's all, Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 20:58, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
One comment taken from above, archived, then reposted just to reply to in the sake of completeness:
- "Both countries would patrol the high seas and territorial waters of signatory countries." In the Mediterranean?"
- I assume your question is "There were high seas in the Mediterranean?". If so, yes - the source is clear - and in other work I've read that territorial waters have been massively enlarged since then in terms of nautical miles from the coast.
- No, I understand that. I mean, were non-Mediterranean territorial waters patrolled? Say Atlantic France near Spain?
It's good question, but one which I can answer on examination of the treaty itself: no, they weren't included. Spanish territorial waters weren't party to the agreement, because Spain wasn't, so I can only assume that no attacks happened on the high seas in the Atlantic (where operation was more difficult because of sea conditions, one might guess). Added "in the Mediterranean" as suggested. Thanks for clearing that up. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 17:20, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Image review
- At the size used, about half of the notations on the map are illegible. Would it be possible to increase the font size used for notations, or increase the size of the map?
- File:British_delegation_at_the_Nyon_Conference.png: who holds copyright to this image? The Times, the photographer...?
- File:BlankMap-Europe_no_boundaries.svg: on what source or data set is this image based? Nikkimaria (talk) 19:44, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm doing a new version of the map off a different source. For #2, it doesn't mention an individual copyright on the page (no copyright notice of any kind). If there's a specific photographer-newspaper contract, it isn't noted. That's why I used fair-use and not attempt a corporate copyright approach. Should be fine per WP:NFCC number 10: "Identification of the source of the material, supplemented, where possible, with information about the artist, publisher and copyright holder" (my emphasis), unless there's some FA-specific rule? Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 20:43, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Hm. There's no FAC-specific requirement above and beyond NFC, but I think you need to reconsider the copyright tag used for that image (and most of the non-free tags indicate that copyright info is required, so if it actually isn't those should be amended; that's not really in the purview of this review, though). Nikkimaria (talk) 20:56, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Map replaced with a differently sourced map, with clearer provenance, and larger labels. Is that better? Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 22:05, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support after the copyedits and tweaks. Still would like to know what the British ambassador/whatever was protesting... Ealdgyth - Talk 16:19, 23 January 2012 (UTC)Oppose for now' Comment - review incoming, as a heads up to the delegates. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:57, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Lead:
"The conference was convened in part because Italy had been carrying out unrestricted submarine warfare, although the final conference agreement did not accuse Italy directly; instead, the attacks were referred to as "piracy" by an unidentified body. It was designed to strengthen non-intervention in the Spanish Civil War. Italy was not officially at war, nor did any submarine identify itself." I think this would read better with the last sentence shifted before the sentence beginning "It was designed..." so something like "The conference was convened in part because Italy had been carrying out unrestricted submarine warfare, although the final conference agreement did not accuse Italy directly; instead, the attacks were referred to as "piracy" by an unidentified body. Italy was not officially at war, nor did any submarine identify itself. The conference was designed to strengthen non-intervention in the Spanish Civil War."Why is submarine linked in the second paragraph when it's already used in the first paragraph? And really, do any readers not know what a submarine is? Same on why is Italy linked in the second paragraph when it's mentioned in the first paragraph?
- Context:
- "aimed at preventing a proxy war – with" I think you mean "aimed at preventing the proxy war – with" as you are directly referring to one specific proxy war.
- you are clearly referring to a specific proxy war though - there is definitely one meant with this statement, because you directly then mention the specific belligerents in the following phrase. This one isn't a deal breaker - but it's just an odd phrasing considering the direct mention of specifics later in the sentence.
"An Anglo-Italian "Gentleman's Agreement" was signed on 2 January 1937, with each party respecting the rights of the other in the Mediterranean." I'm unclear on what this bit of information has to do with the preceding and succeeding sentences. It's disjointed and lacking context.- Perhaps "Previously, an Anglo-Italian "Gentleman's Agreement" was signed on 2 January 1937, with each party respecting the rights of the other in the Mediterranean." and then explain what problem this agreement was meant to solve.
"In May 1937, Neville Chamberlain succeeded Stanley Baldwin as Prime Minister, and adopted a new policy of dealing directly with Germany and Italy." Suggest linking Prime Minster to the correct national article and adding a bit of context like so: "In May 1937, Neville Chamberlain succeeded Stanley Baldwin as British Prime Minister, and adopted a new policy of dealing directly with Germany and Italy.""favouring a significant control effort as the best solution" - jargon - I have NO idea what this means."As suspected by the other powers, Italy was behind some of these attacks." this implies that it is now known that Italy was behind the attacks but there was no proof at the time. Is this the case? If so, when did it become proven?"...the Italian leadership had ordered the commencement of unrestricted submarine warfare, known internationally as a campaign of piracy without reference to Italy." Huh? I am totally lost with that last phrase - it makes no sense in connection with the forgoing.- Okay, better but still a bit confusing ... "... the Italian leadership had ordered the commencement of unrestricted submarine warfare, referred to in discussion as a campaign of piracy without mention of Italy." which discussions? Prior to the conference? at the conference?
"Whilst officially being at peace,[12] the Italian leadership had ordered the commencement of unrestricted submarine warfare, known internationally as a campaign of piracy without reference to Italy.[11] These plans would be the basis for a Mediterranean meeting, suggested by French Foreign Minister Yvon Delbos.[11]" - really - no need to cite every sentence with the same exact citation.- "The British representative in Rome protested to the Italian Minister of Foreign Affairs." protested what? the attack? And what did the Italians do in response?
- Still not clear what he was protesting though?
- "aimed at preventing a proxy war – with" I think you mean "aimed at preventing the proxy war – with" as you are directly referring to one specific proxy war.
- Okay, I'm only two paragraphs into the first section - this is a lot of context missing and prose that's hard to decipher. Normally I'd oppose - but I see you did have a peer review. I'll oppose for now and put the rest of my comments on the talk page of the FAC - so as not to bog this down. I do think you deserve a full review but this needs some work before it's up to FA standards for non-specialists. The rest of this will be on the talk page. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:34, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Lead changes made, with the submarine link moved but retained. The reader could well want more context on that. Will see to the rest shortly. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 17:45, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- "aimed at preventing a proxy war" ~ I'm afraid I don't see how "the" makes sense. "Proxy war" is a general term and does not refer to one in particular.
- "Gentlemen's Agreement" ~ those three consecutive sentences contextualise the following paragraphs (as suggested in this FAC) and refer to Anglo-Italian relations. THe contextualising has to start somewhere - do you have some suggestions of how it could be made less "disjoint"? It has to come before the chronologically later change of PM.
- Linked "British Prime Minister".
- "significant control effort" ~ reworded;
- "Italy was behind some of these attacks" ~ 1950s or so with the publication of Ciano's (Italian foreign minister) diaries, apparently. So after the war. It would be exceptional to mention the source where it is regarded as true; indeed, I reference it to where I got it and not Ciano's diaries, which I haven't seen. The British had their evidence at the time, presumably other people did. Do you suggest altering anything?
- "without reference to Italy" ~ well, I've reworded it a bit. Does it need to be clearer, if so, could you articulate your difficulty? Is that it appears to contradict something in particular? We've been over the issue a few times before at ACR and FAC - it is counter-intuitive, but I am trying to state the facts without editorialising, which is challenging.
- "Whilst officially being at peace" ~ the first clause is referenced to [12], and it's my standard practice to therefore reference the rest of the sentence with the appropriate reference because otherwise the reader might think that [12] referenced the whole sentence. You mention two consecutive sentences with the same end reference, are there any more examples without my point applying?
- "The British representative in Rome" ~ added "but without response". The source says "but 'had been smoothly brushed aside'" quoting one of the people at the meeting's diary.
- Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 18:11, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- In my mind, one "prevents a war between France and Germany", to use a simpler example, rather than "the war".
- Anyway, (1) I've mentioned the aim of the Gentleman's agreement, at least in its simplest formulation; "which discussions" ~ all discussions, what changes do you suggest?; Added that the protest was at the attack - is this specific enough? I've noted the points you've put on this FAC's talk page, and will respond there. Thanks, Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 18:57, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Question: are any of those watching or passing by this review prepared to do a spotcheck? I can provide the PDFs, it should be straight forward. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 20:36, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Spotchecks. "Barbarous" is a direct quote from the source and should be noted as such; other than that, spotchecks of 4 sources found no issues. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:01, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Reworded - normally throwing the thesaurus at something wouldn't help with CP, but I think it's OK for a single word. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 23:24, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Prose looks ok. A few repeat links I've fixed. Over-referencing is a problem. For example, in the para above Aftermath, 36, 36 in the same sentence! I see 32, 32, 32 above that. Lots of close successive repetitions of ref tags could be looked at with a view to trimming a few. Tony (talk) 06:52, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This sentence needs to have its grammar fixed: "In the United Kingdom, Eden noted that the savageness of submarine attacks, that attacks on submarines would be restricted to suitably extreme circumstances, and that the two parties in the war would still not be able to engage neutral vessels." The article says that the Republicans were unhappy that belligerent rights were not granted to the Nationalists; are you sure that's correct? Ucucha (talk) 21:36, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Hopefully fixed the grammar in that sentence. As far as belligerent rights, the article notes above that that "Italy continued to request that belligerent rights be given to the Nationalists, so that Republicans and Nationalists would both gain the right to search vessels for contraband" which gives some indication why the Republicans wanted the Nationalists given rights - but actually, this involved both sides getting rights (there being no such things a war with one party) so I've tweaked the article to say this. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 21:46, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Ucucha 23:30, 2 February 2012 [5].
Russell T Davies
A third FAC in as many months for this article, after the previous two closed with minimal feedback. I've been working on this article for the past year or so and I believe that it's of a good enough quality to gain that all-elusive golden star. Sceptre (talk) 13:52, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Bod's comments
- Section: Children's Television Career, para 3. Without going into detail it would be good to mention why BBC Manchester was 'not allowed' to do drama. If it's a BBC Guideline just add "due to BBC guidelines" or something similarly brief. Otherwise it looks a bit mysterious.
- Section: Adult Television career, para 2. Article says "He let his contract with Granada expire and pitched a new early-evening soap opera to Channel 4, RU, created by Bill Moffat, father of Press Gang co-creator Steven Moffat, and co-written by him and Paul Cornell." It leaves me wondering why Bill Moffat didn't pitch it since he created it? And when it says "co-written by him" is the 'him' Bill Moffat, Steven Moffat or R T Davies? I assume it's Davies but I think the sentence needs to be re-written for clarity.
- Section: Adult Television career, para 5. Article says he almost died from an overdose. The context suggests it was a suicide attempt but the reader is left wondering. Is it known? If so, it should be made plain rather than vague. As it stands it is even open to conjecture that someone poisoned him since it doesn't say he administered the overdose.
- Section: Queer As Folk, para 2 (excluding quote): article says "The eight forty-minute episodes emulated experiences from his social life and includes an episode where the minor character Phil Delaney (Jason Merrells) succumbs to his excesses and dies unnoticed by his social circle." I feel 'succumbs to his excesses' is vague. Given the context and what the article has informed us of thus far, I assume it's a drug overdose. But some people might wonder if "sexual excesses" are being referred to here. On the other hand, perhaps it's drink? We have no way of knowing for sure. So I'd be glad if it were just spelled out for us. --bodnotbod (talk) 15:58, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- In order:
- It seems to be an internal thing, looking at Aldridge/Murray.
- Moffat, Cornell, and Davies pitched it together with Press Gang producer Sandra Hastie.
- As far as I can tell, it was accidental (he was with a friend, probably drank too much, and had to be hospitalised, with the existential crisis coming after. The drug isn't mentioned in Aldridge/Murray.
- In the show, it's cocaine. Sceptre (talk) 16:04, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- All of these points have been clarified. Sceptre (talk) 16:04, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I'm not sure the quotes that begin some of the subsections really add anything to the article. The ones from Queer as Folk and Doctor Who in particular are very long, and just consist of a random line of dialogue from the series which doesn't really tell us anything the article doesn't (namely, that the show has a frank approach to sexuality and that the main character is quite alien respectively). I couldn't find anything about this in the previous FACs or peer reviews, but if this has come up before then fair enough (As a sidenote, they're all referenced except for The Second Coming one, which is inconsistent). One other point: the image of the protest from Bob and Rose doesn't really resemble the real-life photo at all - certainly not enough to warrant a side-by-side comparison (which also makes the fair use rationale a bit dodgy). Would it be possible to get a clearer screen grab, with something more than a tangle of people and a tiny slice of a bus? Smurrayinchester 01:00, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Eh, you're probably right. When it was smaller, they would've added something, but they're just adding to the page size unnecessarily. On the Bob and Rose image: IIRC, there's a very similar shot a few seconds earlier which'll work better. I'll see if I can get a screengrab from the DVD... Sceptre (talk) 01:09, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Beyond my earlier comments, the article looks great. Smurrayinchester 13:40, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I'm somewhat concerned how heavily RTD's life story rests on the Aldridge & Murray source. I'm not saying the article shouldn't do that, I merely pose the question. Is this acceptable? Do we have any guidelines on this matter? I asked the Foundation mailing list about it and didn't get many replies but one person said that one thing to ask is "would the article put someone off buying the original book?" It's impossible for me to really answer that without myself buying the book and making a judgement having read it. What do others think? By the way, I realise this will cause misery for the person(s) who has/have gone to great trouble to create/improve the article (and I think the article is excellent) so I'm genuinely sorry for that. But it's a valid concern, I think and I would really need this question to be considered before I can offer my support for promotion. --bodnotbod (talk) 11:50, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Bod's review of article versus featured article criteria
- Criteria 1a: well written (its prose is engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard)
- Excellent - I found it to be so. I do have some interest in this subject so I'd find it more interesting than someone stumbling on it by accident but the article drew me in and I wasn't at any point cursing it for length or bored. I didn't notice any clangers in sentence construction or anything like that.
- Criteria 1b: comprehensive (it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context)
- Excellent - I know a bit about RTD and didn't notice anything missing. It covers his non-Doctor Who work in detail, which is good to see.
- Criteria 1c well-researched (it is a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature. Claims are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources and are supported by inline citations where appropriate)
- Comment - This brings us back to the Aldridge & Murray question as outlined above this review: ie, can one source ever be said to be a 'representative survey'?
- Criteria 1d: neutral (it presents views fairly and without bias)
- Good -
It doesn't give us any criticisms of RTD's work, focusing on praise alone. I wouldn't block promotion on that score, though.Article provides criticism of the work as well as praise.
- Good -
- Criteria 1e: stable (it is not subject to ongoing edit wars and its content does not change significantly from day to day, except in response to the featured article process)
- Excellent - Looks like Sceptre has been looking after the article for the last few months. No sign of any combat (I looked back as far as August).
- Criteria 2: It follows the style guidelines
- I think so: I'm not a Manual of Style expert but I'm happy with it.
- Criteria 2a: a lead (a concise lead section that summarizes the topic and prepares the reader for the detail in the subsequent sections)
- Excellent - covers all the ground briefly.
- Criteria 2b: appropriate structure (a system of hierarchical section headings and a substantial but not overwhelming table of contents)
- Excellent - his different shows make up most of the contents links, which seems a good way to let people navigate if they don't want to read the whole article.
- Criteria 2c: consistent citations.
- I think so - but I'm not really brilliant on our referencing styles. But I can say that all information is referenced.
- Criteria 3: Media (It has images and other media where appropriate, with succinct captions, and acceptable copyright status. Images included follow the image use policy. Non-free images or media must satisfy the criteria for inclusion of non-free content and be labeled accordingly.
- Someone else usually vets all FACs for image rights - but I'm happy with the images as illustrations of the subject.
- Criteria 4: Length. (It stays focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail).
- Excellent - I didn't notice any points where it went into too much detail but nor did I feel short-changed. Seemed very well-rounded to me.
- '''OVERALL JUDGEMENT''' : I'm happy to support as a FA provided there is consensus amongst other reviewers that Aldridge & Murray being so extensively used is not in breach of any guidelines we have or a problem for FA status. I've read Sceptre's comments on Aldridge & Murray below but I would like to see more input on it from others. -- bodnotbod (talk) 14:28, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- NOTE TO SELF: In the mess of unnecessary bolding above, a support is buried. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:54, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Criteria 1a: well written (its prose is engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard)
- Aldridge/Murray itself uses a lot of sources dating all the way back to 1987, and the sources do become more frequent post-Queer as Folk. I could, in theory, use those sources instead of the book, but I'd still be using the book anyway as it's more detailed than those sources. It's the problem with fame coming gradually to most people: I dare say that, without the book, Revelations, for example, would've faded into obscurity. I would say that it (or any decent biography) would be considered a representative survey of the available sources, as it both uses most sources available between '87 and '08, and is one of the only sources I've found to cover his career in between Century Falls and Queer as Folk. I don't think it would put people off buying the book, though; there's a lot of detail in the book I considered incidental to a Wikipedia biography.
- Re: criticism: I feel that the article does mention criticism where it's balanced: e.g. the Queer as Folk section mentions the backlash from a lot of people due to how it handled its subject matter (although, really, what did they expect from a Channel 4 show?). However, among actual critics and the general public, Davies has always been mediocre at worst; even "Love & Monsters", as the article points out, was only marginally worse-than-average, even though I personally think it's a terrible episode. There is the infamous "gay agenda" criticism, but it's never been levied by reliable sources, and both you and I know it's just homophobic ranting. Sceptre (talk) 15:35, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support and Comment:
The subtitle "Sources" should be renamed to "Bibliography"and that of {{Reflist}} should be "Footnotes". And footnotes must come BEFORE the bibliography. Good article overall. --Z 05:36, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, two comments. Just a couple of niggles Jimfbleak - talk to me? 08:12, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The link for Classics is misleading. My understanding is that the subject is the study of Ancient Greek and/or Latin and the associate cultures, whereas what you link to is basically Eng Lit.
- I've just fixed the link myself, please revert if I've misunderstood Jimfbleak - talk to me? 08:15, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- In Queer as Folk section, you use "portrayed" twice in one sentence
- Second, done. First, I'll double check when I get upstairs in between Doctor Who and Corrie :) Sceptre (talk) 19:08, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Hey: it's ambiguous, but I'm assuming they are English lit teachers. Sceptre (talk) 16:57, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to see an image review and a source spotcheck on this article. Ucucha (talk) 11:09, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Image review
- Captions that are not complete sentences should not end in periods
- File:Bob_and_Rose_Section_28_protest.jpg: who holds copyright to this image? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:59, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi: could you tell me which captions in particular should be edited? I could only think of the infobox caption.
- I believe the copyright would be held by ITV, as the airing channel. I've edited the image's description to specify the producer and publisher. Sceptre (talk) 06:00, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments weighty tome, good work. A few technical comments:
- Is there a reason why "notable awards" are in bold in the infobox?
- "resulted in a " clarify it was his mother that had that issue, not him.
- "English Literature" -> "English literature".
- "an Oxbridge university" well that's either Oxford or Cambridge, so why not just say that?
- We call "Why Don't You...?" just "Why Don't You?". Is there a reason for your use of the ellipsis?
- "Why Don't You...?.[7]" double full stop warning.
- Do you really mean to link Bill Moffat?
- Anthony Cotton has no h in his Antony.
- You've linked McGuffin then Easter-egg linked it in the next section, I wouldn't do that.
- Zeta Jones is hyphenated.
- "Bank Holiday" is just "bank holiday".
- You link "dénouement" the second time you use it, not the first.
- Tables don't meet MOS:DTT for accessibility.
- Some refs end in a full stop, others don't, is there a reason for that?
The Rambling Man (talk) 20:42, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Heya:
- It's a straight transclusion of {{Awards}}.
- Reworded.
- Done (although I should point out it's probably the name of the course)
- Well if the source backs it up then fine, but Eng. lit is just Eng. lit where I'm from! The Rambling Man (talk) 19:57, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't have the book on me to see if he was fine with either, so I'm going to agree and specified.
- Removed the ellipsis. I initially used it as it was a contraction of the show's full name; it may have been formatted that way in Aldridge/Murray too.
- I can find two instances where a question mark is followed by a period, but the question mark is part of the show's title. I'll happily change it if I can be sure it'd be grammatically correct to do so.
- I'd be surprised if "?." was grammatically correct ever! In fact, see MOS:FULLSTOP which says that a question mark is a sentence terminator. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:01, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Done.
- I'd be surprised if "?." was grammatically correct ever! In fact, see MOS:FULLSTOP which says that a question mark is a sentence terminator. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:01, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn't. I assumed that, as the creator of Press Gang, he would have his own article.
- Done.
- Done.
- Done.
- Done.
- It's actually the fourth. Linked on first instance.
- Replaced {{y}} for {{yes}}, which I believe is the main point of contention.
- Not exactly, you need to add to row and col scopes for screen readers. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:57, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- {{harvnb}} doesn't come with a period on the end. Seeing as it'd be about sixty or seventy citations to add full stops to, I'll do it when I wake up this afternoon; I've been up most of the night in any case. Sceptre (talk) 05:26, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Why isn't the T in "Russell T Davies" followed by a period? --Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 02:35, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- See Talk:Russell T Davies/Archive 2; as the T doesn't stand for anything, sources, in this case, don't append a period afterwards. Sceptre (talk) 02:41, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the clarification. I raised the issue since Harry S. Truman has a period that follows the S, unlike this article. --Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 06:45, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- See Talk:Russell T Davies/Archive 2; as the T doesn't stand for anything, sources, in this case, don't append a period afterwards. Sceptre (talk) 02:41, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: spotcheck of sources still pending. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:55, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Spotcheck of all online sources (50/182)
103) Article: "Ian Berriman of science fiction magazine SFX gave the book five stars and wrote that it was the only book necessary to gain a knowledge of the show's production and secrets."
Source: "You can douse all the other books about new Who in lighter fuel and spark up your Zippo – this is all you need. It’s the only one that opens a door into the brain of the series’ showrunner." Not in the source.- 130) Article: "His most prolific cliffhanger was in the script of "The Stolen Earth", which created an unprecedented amount of interest in the show."
Source: "More than 10million viewers are expected for tonight's finale of the latest Dr Who series amid anguished debate over whether David Tennant's Time Lord will be killed off." Does not say unprecedented in this source, would constitute OR. - 135) Article: "The world without the Doctor creates a dystopia which he uses to provide a commentary on Nazi-esque fascism."
This sentence is cited twice, thus this may not be a problem, but the internet link is to a script of the show; if the other reference does not explicitly state that it is a commentary on fascism, it could constitute OR. - 136) Article: "Davies generally tries to make his scripts "detailed, but quite succinct", and eschews the practice of long character and set descriptions; instead, he limits himself to only three adjectives to describe a character and two lines to describe a set to allow the dialogue to describe the story instead."
Source: "Really quite detailed, but very succinct." Also, I think "the practice" is unnecessary and not really talked about, more talk about what he does. - 139) Article: "Torchwood also tackles LGBT themes by subverting stereotypes and exploring the characters' sexualities"
Source says nothing about stereotypes; closest it gets is "I want to knock down the barriers so we can't define which of the characters is gay." 142, 145, 147, 149, 153, 154 (all are links to BAFTA site) dead links
Recommend further source review of printed materials --ClayClayClay 08:47, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Hey:
- Changed.
- Changed.
- The line "That's what they called him last time" is a direct reference to the Holocaust (although that can be inferred without RSes—Rusty was never that good with allegory—the magazine does support the assertion).
- Changed.
- I'm going to have a closer look at the source to see exactly what he says; I believe there's some words in the interview to the effect that h*e wanted to prevent people from thinking "oh, this character is gay and he'll only sleep with men", to which I can't see any other interpretation other than he wanted to subvert stereotypes.
- I'll fix that momentarily.
- I'll pop back in an hour or so, which should give me time to do the rest. Sceptre (talk) 17:34, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Hey:
- Struck through my previous comments - all have been taken care of. I especially liked what you did with the AfterElton reference and expanding its coverage a bit. One question now, unrelated to spotchecking: did you mean to remove the Recognition section header? ClayClayClay 02:05, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.