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Revision as of 22:24, 6 June 2009
June 2009
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:24, 6 June 2009 [1].
Battersea Bridge
- Nominator(s): – iridescent 22:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Did You Know… that the great×8 grandfather of the Princess of Wales commissioned Battersea Bridge, and in 2006 a whale was found under the bridge? Coincidence? You decide…
Yet another one in the Thames Bridges series, and hopefully those who know it only as the rather unloved current bridge will be interested to see that there's a genuinely interesting history behind it, while those who don't know it at all will see that the parts of London outside the City and West End tourist centres and the leafy suburbs have interesting stories in their own right. As with the last couple in this series, I think this says everything that ought to be said on the topic without going into excessive detail. – iridescent 22:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Copy-edited (n-dashes, some repetitive word usage, etc.)
- Harvard links from footnotes to references checked. Publication year for Pay, Lloyd and Waldegrave corrected, now consistent with date listed in references section. All links from notes to references work correctly.
- Article has no ambiguous links. JN466 09:10, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thumbs up
Commentsover the line - two below ain't deal-breakers.awright then, I'll cast me meat pies over it before I open me north and south...notes ta follow....Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:41, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- least busy.. - pity there ain't a positive ta use 'ere. I'd say "quietest" but not sure how general that is.
- Parliamentary concerns about the reliability of the bridge obliged the Battersea Bridge Company to provide a ferry service.. "obliged" sounds funny used in the active here, but I am having trouble thinking of an alternative.
- Addendum - actually I did think of one more thing - is there anything on how the presence of a new crossing impacted on the development (or otherwise) of Battersea? I remember reading about the history of the Sydney Harbour Bridge and it was interesting how surrounding areas change with new crossings etc. This would be a good addition and I hope it can be found :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:23, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Trouble is, there isn't an obvious antonym for "busy". "Quietest" has connotations of noise (and the much busier London Bridge, for example, built in the 1970s with the advantage of 75 years of technological advances, probably generates less noise).
- The wording in the original source was "a clause was inserted into the Act to the effect that [Spencer] must provide a ferry service at the same rate as the bridge tolls in case the bridge was closed for repairs". I was trying to summarise it in a less clumsy way. I can't think of a less clumsy word than "obliged", but if anyone can, feel free to change it.
- Because it was sandwiched between two existing bridges a couple of miles either side, and because there wasn't a major north/south road here, Battersea Bridge didn't have the same impact on development as, for example, Vauxhall Bridge did in opening up the south bank. Because of the time period in question, it's pretty much impossible to separate out what development (if any) was due to the bridge itself, from the broader urban sprawl caused by the railways. Certainly on this map of 1850 – 80 years after the bridge opened – the Battersea side is still farmland (and, oddly, a turpentine factory), while the Chelsea side marks the western limit of London, which makes me think that the driving factor in growth was Battersea railway station (opened 1863) and not the bridge. – iridescent 14:04, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Suggestions for "obliged":
- Parliament was concerned about the reliability of the bridge and required the Battersea Bridge Company to provide a ferry service ... (in that case, change "required" to "needed" a couple of sentences earlier on, to avoid the repetition of "required")
- Due to parliamentary concerns about the reliability of the bridge, the Battersea Bridge Company was obliged to provide a ferry service ...
- Concerns were expressed in parliament about the reliability of the bridge, and the Battersea Bridge Company was obliged to provide a ferry service ...
- Looking at the flow of the paragraph as a whole, I think my preference would be for no. 3. JN466 14:48, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Suggestions for "obliged":
- Suggestions for "least busy":
- As the narrowest surviving road bridge over the Thames in London, it carries less traffic than most of the other Thames bridges in London.
- The narrowest surviving road bridge over the Thames in London, it is less busy than most of the other Thames bridges in London. JN466 14:55, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Suggestions for "least busy":
- Agree with 3 for "obliged" and have changed it accordingly. Regarding "least busy", I personally think "one of the least busy" scans better than "less busy than most of the others" – that "most of the others" sounds a bit so-what to me – but wouldn't lose sleep either way. – iridescent 15:00, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:10, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- 'Comments
- Potentially useful info at: Conservation of bridges By G. P. Tilly, Alan Frost, Jon Wallsgrove, Gifford and Partners Taylor & Francis, 2002. ISBN 0419259104. pp. 87-88. Ling.Nut (talk) 08:57, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Apparently 15,000 vehicles/pedestrians (?) traverse the bridge in a 12-hour period, see p. 401 An Economic Study of the City of London. By John Dunning, Economists Advisory Group, E. Victor Morgan, City of London (England). Court of Common Council. Routledge, 2003. ISBN 0415313481 Ling.Nut (talk) 09:02, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Mmmm, apparently Hilaire Belloc wrote a poem called "stanzas written on Battersea Bridge during a South-Westerly gale," the full text of which is online. Ling.Nut (talk) 09:13, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Will have a look at the "Conservation" one if I can find it. Cookson, which I've used quite heavily as a source, references it in the bibliography so I suspect any relevant material is already there; I don't want to get too heavily into the 1992 restoration (which isn't all that major a development, consisting mainly of repainting it back to its original colors and restoring the design of the original lamp-posts).
- Regarding passenger traffic, on all this series I'm using Transport for London's AADT figure for 2004 (the most recent I can find that lists all the bridges, so the one I've used for consistency in comparison) which in this case was 26,041. Personally I think using multiple data sets would be too confusing, as well as the ambiguity of "12 hour period" (1900-0700 presumably has a completely different traffic pattern to 0700-1900, for example).
- There are quite a lot of poems, letters etc – Wordsworth & Tennyson certainly wrote about it as well. While I've included a section on its significance in painting (as the subject of Whistler v Ruskin, Whistler's paintings of the bridge in particular were seminal in establishing impressionism as a mainstream form), I'm reluctant to go down the "…in popular culture" route; one can generally find some poem by someone about virtually any 18th-19th century landmark. – iridescent 16:13, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Coincidence, or conspiracy? You decide. Ling.Nut (talk) 13:43, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Well written, comprehensive, good images, well referenced. JN466 13:57, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - Wow, very cool article, practically flawless (ie. I just had personal preferences which are probably better the way they are now). ceranthor 15:44, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:24, 6 June 2009 [2].
William Barley
- Nominator(s): User:TwilligToves
Taking the leap and nominating one of the articles that I started and have edited off-and-on for a while now. A short little bio on a "somewhat remarkable" Elizabethan music publisher who apparently isn't worthy of Grove ODNB. My biggest worry on this one is whether I adequately explained the confusing nature of Elizabethan printing patents in a concise manner. Thanks in advance for the reviews. BuddingJournalist 05:37, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments – Looks like a very good article overall. There is ambiguity at certain points, but I assume that is because of the limitations of the avaliable sources. Richard Byrd is a disambiguation link, and none of the articles there are about a 1500s composer. Will do a full read-through, and probably offer my support afterwards. Giants2008 (17-14) 01:25, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Wow, thanks for catching that. Should be William Byrd not Richard. Doh. Look forward to your review. BuddingJournalist 05:45, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Caught only a few things during a full read-through:
The captions should have periods because they are full sentences.Drapers' Company: "and other drapers/booksellers joined the company within a few years so that they could continue their trade." Any way that the slash could be removed, such as using a hyphen or saying "drapers and booksellers" or similar?Stationers' Company: "From 1606 to 1613, less than half of the music books published from 1606 to 1613 recognized Barley's rights on the imprint." Would be good to see that re-worded without the repetition.Giants2008 (17-14) 23:22, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the review, Giants.
- They're not actually full sentences so they don't merit full stops.
- changed to "draper-booksellers"
- Heh, nice catch. Removed one of the instances of the time period. BuddingJournalist 00:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Caught only a few things during a full read-through:
- Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:30, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support – Lovely article that tells an interesting life story. Giants2008 (17-14) 00:15, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - A well-written and impressively-researched article; finding information on an Elizabethan music publisher not covered by Grove is no easy task, and this article pulls it off in a polished manner. Ricardiana (talk) 23:48, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the support...I actually meant to say ODNB above, not Grove (heck, I even cite Grove, so I don't how I managed to say Grove up there...). :) TwilligToves (talk) 09:08, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Conditional Support - I endorse the positive comments above. Two small things:
note 1 says "This notion has been discredited by more modern scholarship." I'd welcome a bit more detail. Would that be Lavin and/or Johnson?
"privileged persons" (privilegiati) at Oxford University is a status with a precise meaning that won't be understood by most readers, and was perhaps less elevated than they might imagine. An explanation is here
- William Avery (talk) 12:21, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the review.
- Lavin was the first to challenge this view. Johnson, Grove all agree with his viewpoint. I tweaked the note a bit...is the result OK?
- I added a short sentence clarifying Oxford's notion of "privileged persons" and added your link as a source. Clark, too, has a great explanation on this, even though it's over a century old source. TwilligToves (talk) 12:24, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Super, thanks! William Avery (talk) 12:36, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the review.
Image review: no portraits (nobody bothers what a publisher looks like, unless he was patronised by kings). The two images used in this article are of the two works Barley has published, and are in the public domain. Jappalang (talk) 03:08, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I thought the article was well-written and easy to follow. Good work! Karanacs (talk) 20:46, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:24, 6 June 2009 [3].
Water fluoridation
This became a Good Article after a careful and helpful review from Doc James along with critical and ultimately supportive comments by II. It went through peer review with positive comments by Finetooth and a useful quick comment from Colin. Its first attempt at FA status did not reach consensus, but elicited comments from Xasodfuih, Peripitus, and Mattisse, all of which I've tried to address in edits since then.
Fluoridation is sometimes controversial. The article focuses on technical aspects and briefly summarizes the controversy in its Ethics and politics section, with a subarticle Opposition to water fluoridation (not part of this nomination) that goes into more detail. Eubulides (talk) 23:25, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- How about an image of severe dental fluorosis to contrast with the mild one?--Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:51, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- That wouldn't be appropriate, as this article is about water fluoridation (the controlled addition of fluoride to a public water supply to reduce tooth decay), and water fluoridation does not cause severe dental fluorosis. A good image of a severe case would be appropriate for Dental fluorosis article, though, if such an image could be found. Eubulides (talk) 04:49, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- This paper says the rate has been found to be 0.3 and 0.6% in some studies. Now that we are getting fluoride from multiple sources this is becoming more of a concern.
- And this one says "Chi-square tests showed a strong association between fluoride levels in well drinking water and severity fiuorosis of tooth #11 (/'<0.001). However, 16.1 % of the children exposed to 0.50-0.79 ppm F were free of dental fluorosis while about 24%) had severe dental fluorosis with pitting (TFI score a5)." Dental fluorosis in 12-15-year-old rural children exposed to fluorides from well drinkin water in the Hail region of Saudi Arabia Source: Community dentistry and oral epidemiolo [0301-5661] Akpata yr:1997vol:25 iss:4 pg:324
- So I think this needs to be discussed in greater detail. Some areas have high natural levels of fluoride, some get fluoride from multiple sources, and sometimes the fluoridation equipment breaks down. Just saying that anything other than mild fluorosis does not occur from water fluoridation is a bit dishonest. Even though of course the risks of severe fluorisis is very small.--Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:26, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm struggling to find sources that give a rate of severe fluorosis due to artificial water fluoridation. I see some population studies, but it isn't clear they tell us anything about water fluoridation. At present, I don't see how we can judge whether "severe fluorosis" needs to be mentioned in this article at all, let alone have a picture of it. Colin°Talk 17:04, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- This paper is the best I can find. There is a chart comparing various degrees of fluorosis among populations receiving natural water with sub-optimal fluoride, with those receiving optimal artificially fluoridated water, with those receiving naturally fluoridated water (where there there is no history of taking fluoride supplements). So water fluoridation could be judged "guilty of increasing" Questionable Fluorosis from 28.4% to 36.0%; Very Mild Fluorosis from 11.9% to 19.9%; Mild Fluorisis from 3.0% to 4.4% but no change in Moderate fluorosis at 0.3% and no change in Severe Fluorosis at 0.3%. I worked out the sample size of the suboptimal fluoride group who didn't take supplements was 41.3% of 2081 = 810. So 0.3% of that is 3 cases. In the artificially fluoridated group, the sample size was 85% of 1445 = 1228. And 0.3% of that is 4 cases. These are tiny numbers, so there really isn't enough data to know, in a large population, how many extra cases of moderate or severe fluorosis are due to water fluoridation, but if this is the best analysis we have, there currently isn't any evidence that water fluoridation is guilty of causing any extra cases of moderate or severe fluorosis. Colin°Talk 17:48, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, I think we should state something like "with normal water fluoridation rates of severe dental fluorosis or exceedingly low, however cases have been reported in certain population with risk factors ref, in cases in which equipment has failed and at low rates in populations who are receiving floride from muitiple sources ref" I came across a paper from Africa commenting on how malnutrition increases ones suceptibility to dental flurosis, we have had accedents upnorth that have lead to severe dental fluorosis and death, and have seen papers written about the concerns from fluoride when it is received from muitiple sources which would have been less true in 1980. Cheers --Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:56, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The source doesn't support your proposed text, which will make the reader think the "normal water fluoridation" is responsible for the "exceedingly low rates of severe dental fluorosis". Colin°Talk 19:12, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I am not saying that the papers above say the passage I have suggested but I could easily find papers to support what I have just written. This paper for instance found rates of severe fluorosis of 24.1% and 75.9% in mod to high natural fluoride areas. PMID 16430523
- Now to set the record straight I am not saying that we should not fluorinate the water we just need to reasonabily discuss the side effects and benefits. Which I will say is mostly done at this point but could use a bit of further clarification.--Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:19, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, I think we should state something like "with normal water fluoridation rates of severe dental fluorosis or exceedingly low, however cases have been reported in certain population with risk factors ref, in cases in which equipment has failed and at low rates in populations who are receiving floride from muitiple sources ref" I came across a paper from Africa commenting on how malnutrition increases ones suceptibility to dental flurosis, we have had accedents upnorth that have lead to severe dental fluorosis and death, and have seen papers written about the concerns from fluoride when it is received from muitiple sources which would have been less true in 1980. Cheers --Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:56, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- This paper is the best I can find. There is a chart comparing various degrees of fluorosis among populations receiving natural water with sub-optimal fluoride, with those receiving optimal artificially fluoridated water, with those receiving naturally fluoridated water (where there there is no history of taking fluoride supplements). So water fluoridation could be judged "guilty of increasing" Questionable Fluorosis from 28.4% to 36.0%; Very Mild Fluorosis from 11.9% to 19.9%; Mild Fluorisis from 3.0% to 4.4% but no change in Moderate fluorosis at 0.3% and no change in Severe Fluorosis at 0.3%. I worked out the sample size of the suboptimal fluoride group who didn't take supplements was 41.3% of 2081 = 810. So 0.3% of that is 3 cases. In the artificially fluoridated group, the sample size was 85% of 1445 = 1228. And 0.3% of that is 4 cases. These are tiny numbers, so there really isn't enough data to know, in a large population, how many extra cases of moderate or severe fluorosis are due to water fluoridation, but if this is the best analysis we have, there currently isn't any evidence that water fluoridation is guilty of causing any extra cases of moderate or severe fluorosis. Colin°Talk 17:48, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm struggling to find sources that give a rate of severe fluorosis due to artificial water fluoridation. I see some population studies, but it isn't clear they tell us anything about water fluoridation. At present, I don't see how we can judge whether "severe fluorosis" needs to be mentioned in this article at all, let alone have a picture of it. Colin°Talk 17:04, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Is the page just about artificial water fluoridation or water fluoridation in general? We all agree that some areas fluoride levels are so high they lead to severe dental flurosis in a large portion of the population naturally.--Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:19, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- This is just about artificial water fluoridation, but I do think it would be nice to have a picture of more noticeable fluorosis. My little brother and a couple of my cousins have worse fluorosis than the effect seen in that picture. Perhaps we should ask User:Dozenist, the dentist who contributed it, if he can come up with another picture with more noticeable fluorosis, since I'm sure he sees it. II | (t - c) 06:37, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The term "water fluoridation" means "controlled addition of fluoride to a public water supply to reduce tooth decay". This definition excludes fluoridation above recommended levels, a topic that is covered in detail somewhere else in Wikipedia. Although the Water fluoridation article briefly discusses the issue of fluoride above recommended levels, it does so only when this is directly relevant to the main topic.
- Any new image should be chosen so as not to mislead a naive reader into thinking that there is reliable evidence that water fluoridation significantly increases the risk of aesthetically-objectionable dental fluorosis. (Such thinking would contradict both the York and the NHMRC reviews, our best reviews.) It's fine to use a image of non-aesthetically-objectionable fluorosis, as we have reliable sources saying this occurs. But aesthetically-objectionable fluorosis would stray from what our reliable sources are saying.
- Eubulides (talk) 08:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- This is just about artificial water fluoridation, but I do think it would be nice to have a picture of more noticeable fluorosis. My little brother and a couple of my cousins have worse fluorosis than the effect seen in that picture. Perhaps we should ask User:Dozenist, the dentist who contributed it, if he can come up with another picture with more noticeable fluorosis, since I'm sure he sees it. II | (t - c) 06:37, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- That wouldn't be appropriate, as this article is about water fluoridation (the controlled addition of fluoride to a public water supply to reduce tooth decay), and water fluoridation does not cause severe dental fluorosis. A good image of a severe case would be appropriate for Dental fluorosis article, though, if such an image could be found. Eubulides (talk) 04:49, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- How about an image of severe dental fluorosis to contrast with the mild one?--Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:51, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Severe fluorosis issue. Some of the above comments are based on the theory that water fluoridation is a significant cause of severe dental fluorosis. However, this simply isn't the case. Here are some comments about the 3 sources cited above:
- Akpata et al. 1997 (PMID 9332811) is not about water fluoridation: it is about water naturally fluoridated above recommended levels. In that primary study, even the 10% of wells that were "low-fluoride" (0.50–0.79 mg/L fluoride) were above the levels recommended by the WHO for water fluoridation (0.5 mg/L in hot and dry climates). Also, the severe fluorosis observed in those wells could easily be explained by halo effects from even-higher-level wells, or by children moving any time in the past dozen years before the study (the study did not examine either issue).
- Wondwossen et al. 2006 (PMID 16430523) is also not about water fluoridation; it is about moderate- and high-fluoride areas in the Ethiopian Rift Valley. Even its "moderate-fluoride" areas mostly consist of wells that are way above recommended levels (in some cases by a factor of 4).
- Beltrán-Aguilar et al. 2002 (PMID 11868834) is directly relevant to water fluoridation, but as Colin said, it directly contradicts the claim that water fluoridation causes severe fluorosis.
- While we're on the subject of severe dental fluorosis, unless I'm missing something we haven't seen reliable sources supporting the following claims made in comments above:
- "cases have been reported in certain population with risk factors"
- "we have had accedents upnorth that have lead to severe dental fluorosis and death" (We do have reliable sources on death, and that topic is covered in Water fluoridation #Safety; it's the severe-dental-fluorosis part of this claim that is dubious.)
- "at low rates in populations who are receiving floride from muitiple sources"
- "in cases in which equipment has failed".
- Two other comments on dental fluorosis:
- "I came across a paper from Africa commenting on how malnutrition increases ones suceptibility to dental flurosis" Can you please let us know the citation for that? Offhand it doesn't seem directly relevant to water fluoridation, but perhaps the source establishes the relevance.
- Multiple reviews are available on the subject of water fluoridation and fluorosis. As per WP:MEDRS#Definitions and WP:PSTS, the Water fluoridation article should typically defer to what these reviews say, and should not cite primary sources in order to dispute the reviews.
- Eubulides (talk) 08:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Here is the paper on equipment failure Waldbott GL (May 1981). "Mass intoxication from accidental overfluoridation of drinking water". Clin. Toxicol. 18 (5): 531–41. doi:10.3109/15563658108990280. PMID 7023807.
- This one says "While the increase has occurred primarily in the very mild and mild categories of dental fluorosis, there is also some evidence that the prevalence is increasing in the moderate and severe classifications as well."[6]
- --Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the paper on many sources (Skotowski et al. 1995, PMID 7562728). I followed the reference chain to a recent review that discusses the topic (Alvarez et al. 2009, PMID 19179949, freely readable, yay!) and added some coverage of it. This review isn't the best quality, but it is reliable and it is certainly better than nothing.
- The paper on equipment failure (Waldbott 1981, PMID 7023807) isn't relevant to fluorosis, as it doesn't mention fluorosis at all. More generally, that paper is a primary study of one overfeed incident, and for the overfeed issue we're better off using a reliable review that summarizes the topic. Water fluoridation #Safety already does this, citing Balbus and Lang 2001 (PMID 11579665).
- As far as I know, the primary study about increase in moderate/severe fluorosis (Clark 1994, PMID 8070241) doesn't attribute this to water fluoridation, but to fluoride in general. Also, that study is rather old, and as fluoride practice has changed since then (particularly for infants) its current relevance is a bit suspect. A much more recent primary study by the same author (Clark et al. 2006, PMID 16674751) found no significant difference in dental fluorosis of aesthetic concern after water fluoridation was discontinued in one community, which suggests that water fluoridation was not a significant cause of the problem in that case. In any case Water fluoridation shouldn't be citing either of these primary sources by Clark now that it is citing a reliable review on the topic.
- Eubulides (talk) 17:42, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I think I'm confused about the difference between "topical fluorides" and the fact that all fluoride therapy works "topically". I'm guessing that fluoridated water doesn't much affect the teeth directly (contact between the water being held in the mouth briefly while drunk) but is absorbed and the fluoride comes back in the saliva. Is that correct? Could we say so in the mechanism section? Out of interest... I'm also guessing that mouthwash has the opposite mechanism in that you don't swallow it so it is only effective while some wash remains in your mouth. One of the sources commented that fluoride tablets can be more effective if sucked for as long as possible. Is that because it can have a directly-topical effect as well as the ingested...saliva route? Colin°Talk 12:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm pretty sure your intuition is wrong. When you drink fluoridated water, that water washes over the teeth and perhaps a bit of that water remains in your mouth, exerting a topical effect. Once it's drunk it's either excreted or distributed to the entire body as well as the mouth, significantly diluting any effect it would have on the mouth area. There's a paper which argues that the systemic effect is understated (Newbrun 2007), but I don't have access to the paper, and he's going against the consensus. I'd say at most the systemic effect is 10% (I seem to remember reading that from the NRC), more likely lower. II | (t - c) 07:02, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I am also confused on the topical vs. topical-saliva issue. I have a few comments on the content issues saved to Notepad, but got distracted before chasing down the reference on topical effects. Perhaps Eubulides could elaborate. On a technical well-written and well-referenced basis though, the article is stellar.
- Also, the topical bit I believe is mostly for adults. For children, systemic ingestion may be a little different. Again, it's been a while since I visited the topic, and the discussions are split between this and the "Opposition" article, so it's rather difficult to pin down where this has been discussed previously. Franamax (talk) 00:50, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, the effect of fluoridated water is almost entirely topical, for both adults and children. A bit of fluoride does come back via plasma to the saliva, but this apparently doesn't benefit teeth much. For many years it was thought that there were systemic effects, but nowadays reliable sources generally agree that systemic effects have little benefit. (Newbrun evidently is an exception, but his 2007 paper is not cited much.) Thanks for bringing up this issue; I added some text to try to clear it up, citing Hellwig & Lennon 2004 (PMID 15153698) on topical vs systemic and Oganessian et al. 2007 (PMID 18780642) on plasma. (And thanks for the compliment, Franamax!) Eubulides (talk) 08:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- OK. I think the sentence about "systemic (whole-body) fluoride" is still confusing as it mentions swallowing supplements rather than the swallowing of fluoridated water, which is more directly relevant to this article. Could we find a source that directly states that it is the presence of fluoridated water in the mouth that contributes to fluoride in the saliva and thus to remineralisation. Perhaps also the mechanism section could note that fluoride toothpaste and mouthwash are simply more concentrated methods of delivering fluoride to the mouth. I read with interest in the Sheiham 2001 article that brushing with non-fluoride toothpaste has no effect on dental caries.
- If the positive effects of fluoride occur due to what you put and hold in your mouth, and only once teeth have erupted, then the negative effects of fluoride seem to be due to what you swallow, and only up to the age of about eight (ignoring toxic doses). So I think the third paragraph in Mechanism is a bit confusing as it mainly concerns the ingestion of fluoride. I note that your source only indicates that drinking water is "typically" the most important source of fluoride: the article text and the two sources seem to indicate that in low-fluoride-water-areas, ingested toothpaste "may" result in higher fluoride consumption that from the water.
- Should the Mechanism discuss the mechanism behind fluorosis, or just stick to the mechanism behind the desired effects? If the the later, then perhaps the body-intake stuff should be moved to the Safety section, and keep this section totally topical. Colin°Talk 12:44, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, the effect of fluoridated water is almost entirely topical, for both adults and children. A bit of fluoride does come back via plasma to the saliva, but this apparently doesn't benefit teeth much. For many years it was thought that there were systemic effects, but nowadays reliable sources generally agree that systemic effects have little benefit. (Newbrun evidently is an exception, but his 2007 paper is not cited much.) Thanks for bringing up this issue; I added some text to try to clear it up, citing Hellwig & Lennon 2004 (PMID 15153698) on topical vs systemic and Oganessian et al. 2007 (PMID 18780642) on plasma. (And thanks for the compliment, Franamax!) Eubulides (talk) 08:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- "Could we find a source that directly states..." I attempted that, citing Tinanoff 2009 rather than Oganessian et al. 2007. I couldn't offhand find a source making the "more concentrated" point, though obviously it's true.
- "I read with interest in the Sheiham 2001 article that brushing with non-fluoride toothpaste has no effect on dental caries." Good point; I added that.
- "the third paragraph in Mechanism is a bit confusing as it mainly concerns the ingestion of fluoride ... 'typically' ... 'may'" Thanks; I tried to fix that.
- "Should the Mechanism discuss the mechanism behind fluorosis" Yes, I thnk so, and the change cited in the previous bullet also attempts to do that.
- Thanks for the comments; they're helping to improve the article. Eubulides (talk) 09:33, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment about alternatives. This section is a bit of a jumble; the lead sentence is particularly hard to parse. Covering the mix of theoretical and unproven methods before covering the proven standard methods (in detail) is a mistake IMO. How about abandoning the lead paragraph and have the following paragraphs: 1. Fluoride toothpaste - head and shoulders the most important and effective alternative. 2. Other community programmes(salt, milk, healthy-eating, etc) 3. Other personal methods (mouthwash, sealants, chewing gum etc). 4. Theoretical, research and unproven ideas. Colin°Talk 20:55, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the suggestion. I installed a change that did much of what you suggest. It puts the unproven stuff after the proven stuff. It turns out that "healthy-eating" doesn't work, by the way; I guess nobody follows the regimen. (Our summary of Kumar 2008, PMID 18694870, briefly discusses this.) However, I left the sealants first, as they're the most effective; put the fluoride mouthwash next to the other fluoride treatments; and put chewing gum later. Eubulides (talk) 09:33, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment on cost. The numbers here are all relative, with the aim of showing it is cost-effective. But since they are small, they are perhaps hard for the reader to appreciate the total cost of tooth decay. Your Sheiham 2001 paper claims "Dental diseases, particularly dental caries, are the most expensive part of the body to treat. Caries is indeed the most expensive human disease in terms of direct costs. For example, the direct costs of caries treatment in Germany was 20.2 billion, CVD 15.4 billion DM, diabetes 2.3 billion DM" (citing an 1993 paper). It would be nice to have up-to-date figures for the direct cost of caries -- to give the reader the idea of the big pot of money that is worth reducing, even by a small amount. The "Caries is the most expensive human disease in terms of direct costs.", if justified, is certainly eye catching enough to appear in the lead. Colin°Talk 20:55, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. I've finished re-reading this and it is excellent. Per previous FAC: readable, comprehensive and sticks closely to high quality sources. A good set of appropriate pics too. Colin°Talk 12:20, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
CommentSupport Shortly after this article was not promoted, I said that I'd wished I'd voted support. It is much better than probably most featured articles, and Eubulides has done a pretty good job of presenting both sides, although it's taken some nudging. He also has a tendency to repeat things word for word if they've been "published", particularly in a "review", regardless of the supporting data presented. I was reading the lead and I looked closer at the statement in the lead: "Almost all major public health and dental organizations support water fluoridation, or consider it safe", sourced to Armfield 2007. Armfield cites the American Dental Association's Fluoridation Facts 2005 to support this statement. The ADA's statement on this can be found on page 6, with a further list on page 69. These organizations are almost exclusively Anglo, with the exception of the Anglo-dominated World Health Organization. European and Asian safety organizations are not mentioned. And their absence makes it "almost"? It's not surprising that countries which practice fluoridation officially support it. But what do the academics say? In fact, the most in-depth review of the topic, the York review (which served as the basis for the later more surface-level NHMRC review of reviews) concluded that research on adverse effects was mostly of low-quality, which is in the lead. Anyway, the ADA's statement, channeled through Armfield, seems dubious, especially given letters which fluoridation opponents have received from European and Asian organizations [7], which indicate that they're more in agreement with York that the safety hasn't been conclusively established. Armfield's statement on health organizations is not as dubious as some of Armfield's other statements, like the one which directly precedes his public health org. statement: "Statements regarding the scientific controversy surrounding water fluoridation are generally regarded as artefacts of antifluoridationist activity, with actual scientific debate over water fluoridation being resolved decades ago", sourced, if you can believe it, to a 1978 Consumer Reports article. Fortunately, that's not in the article. Armfield's statement contrasts interestingly with a statement from one of the most prominent toxicologists alive today, John W. Doull, who chaired the 2006 NRC report on high natural fluoride. Doull told a Sci. American journalist [8]: "when we looked at the studies that have been done, we found that many of these questions are unsettled and we have much less information than we should, considering how long this [fluoridation] has been going on. I think that's why fluoridation is still being challenged so many years after it began. In the face of ignorance, controversy is rampant". There's also the interesting statement from Burt & Tomar that fluoridation is more justified in the U.S. than Europe because of socioeconomics; unlike Armfield and the ADA's statements, this bold statement is entirely unsupported by any citations or data. However, because it's in a "review", it apparently passes muster to be included in the lead. I'll admit it's plausible. II | (t - c) 06:37, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for bringing up Armfield's hyperbole; I reworded the article to remove it, citing Pizzo et al. (a more skeptical source) instead. Burt & Tomar's statement about socioeconomics is indeed plausible; also, Burt and Tomar are recognized experts in the field and we have no reliable sources disputing their statement. If any other points need clearing up to get your support this time around, please let me know. Eubulides (talk) 08:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Using Armfield 2007 to support the "opposition to it has been based on ethical, legal, safety, and efficacy grounds" clause seems a bit inflammatory and unfair, but I suppose it's balanced by the Cheng et al's BMJ article. II | (t - c) 21:25, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- II's comments seem verging on WP:SYNTH there. I'd have a minor gripe about U.S. bias in the article, , but the pros and cons of fluoridation are presented admirably. Physchim62 (talk) 20:32, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Using Armfield 2007 to support the "opposition to it has been based on ethical, legal, safety, and efficacy grounds" clause seems a bit inflammatory and unfair, but I suppose it's balanced by the Cheng et al's BMJ article. II | (t - c) 21:25, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:16, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - In my view the article satisfied the criteria at the last FAC; it surpasses them now. Graham Colm Talk 16:32, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image review: images are verifiably in the public domain or appropriately licensed. No issues. Jappalang (talk) 03:23, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:24, 6 June 2009 [9].
Ngo Dinh Diem presidential visit to Australia
- Nominator(s): YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 03:50, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Article about the first president of South Vietnam visiting Australia in 1957. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 03:50, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - I preformed a bit of minor cleanup on the article. –Juliancolton | Talk 03:59, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments Nice article. I always enjoy reading your submissions, as this area of the world was oft-neglected in the history classes I had.
Not far from supporting, but a few fixes are needed:- "Like his American trip ..." Something about this phrase doesn't sit right. Consider "As with his American trip", perhaps?
- "This was helped by the fact that his elder brother ..." The ambiguous "this" needs clarification. "This effort was helped"?
- "He refused to hold the national elections and asserted that Ho would rig the ballots in the north" I assume you're referring to Ho Chi Minh, but it bears repeating since we've not read the name in a while. This also raises a question that Western readers might have.. why is Ngo Dinh Diem referred to in short form as "Diem", but Ho Chi Minh referred to as "Ho"?
- "Diem arrived in the capital Canberra on 2 September" I've lost track of the year by now, so please restate.
- "where large crowds cheered the Diem’s arrival" Extra "the"?
- "This occurred in the 1950s during the McCarthyism scares" Another ambiguous "this".
- Tucker appears in the Notes but not References.
- --Laser brain (talk) 21:59, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Done as of one hour after this post YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 02:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. (Note I passed this article for GA) Ealdgyth - Talk 15:07, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
images Australia has quite liberal copyright laws, government copyright expires after 50 years, are there no official photos? Fasach Nua (talk) 20:40, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The liberal law only applies up to 1955 pictures expiring in 2005. Since the new FTA, it is the same rotten one like all the other countries, so 1957 pictures might have to wait another 50 years. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 02:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, not finding any other issues. --Laser brain (talk) 20:17, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments: Great read and an interesting article. I really didn't find much to complain about, but just a few incredibly minor points:
- You could link 17th parallel to 17th parallel north.
- He had visited the US in May as well as other anti-communist countries in the Asia Pacific region such as Thailand and South Korea during the year. What time of the year did he visit the latter two countries?
- Doc Evatt, the leader of the opposition Australian Labor Party chimed in, proclaiming that peace, stability and democracy had been achieved in South Vietnam. Maybe joined instead of chimed.
- There's a minor overlink in the Media reception and support section to 1955 State of Vietnam referendum (the link is repeated from earlier). It's up to you, but the second link may not be needed.
- Fixed the four preceding parts.
- Surely support and praise for Diem wasn't unanimous. Were there any (attempted) protests from local Vietnamese people/Communist groups? It surprises me that he could be feted so universally.
- I presume you mean Australia. At the time Vietnamese settlement in Australia was negligible and only South Vietnamese students were allowed or came to anti-communist countries like Australia, so they were sent by Diem and wouldn't oppose him (VN has never been democratic so non-dissent at the government is expected). So I changed it to SV students. I also changed it to mainstream media. I suppose that the newsletter of the Communist Party of Australia must have condemned him but less than 0.5% of people support the CPA so it is nn. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 07:08, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Once these problems are fixed/answered I'll be happy to support. Apterygial 04:48, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support. My issues are dealt with. Like Laser brain, an area neglected in my history classes (considering I went to school in Australia that's odd), so good to read about it. Great article. Apterygial 10:00, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support with a minor question. I'm not sure if it is really relevant in this article, but I wondered a bit how other world leaders have been received in Australia after this - did the response approach that of Diem's visit, or was his special because it was essentially the first? Have other Vietnamese heads of state visited Australia? Karanacs (talk) 18:13, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I added section on aftermath about Vietnam and Australa. In those days state visits were a big deal and lots of people came to tickertape parades for all of them, but with the social standards changing in 1960s, people were more willing to protest. When LBJ came there were a lot of people cheering and a few atni-war rioters etc as well. When GWB came in 2003 not many people showed much interest except protesters. When Hu Jintao came a few days later only some PRC people came along to wave flags frenetically YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 00:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support, comprehensive and well referenced.--Grahame (talk) 02:24, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- "one of the highest imperial honours that can be bestowed on a non-British subject"—most readers (even Australians) won't get the gist, that Australians are themselves British subjects. Is it still the case, or does it need past tense?
- "overlooking his authoritarianism, election fraud and corruption"—category issue: election fraud is corruption. ("and other aspects/signs of his corruption").
- Clarify: "Diem had pursued policies in Vietnam favoring his co-religionists." ... "Diem's visit was a highmark in Australia–Vietnam relations."
- "Over time, Diem became unpopular with his foreign allies, who began to notice his autocratic style and religious bias." How can we tell that they simply "began to notice" rather than "who had not responded to his autocratic ...". Safer NPOV?
- Over time ... over time.
- "By the time of his assassination, he had little support in Vietnam."
- "after winning office, but after the Liberals were returned to power"—after after ("but on the return of the centre-right Liberal-National coalition to power in 1975,").
I hope the rest is better. It probably is, so perhaps just a run through by someone else? Tony (talk) 15:28, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:24, 6 June 2009 [10].
USS West Bridge (ID-2888)
This is an article about a United States Navy cargo ship built during World War I that was torpedoed on its first voyage across the Atlantic in August 1918. The ship survived the attack (barely) and continued sailing until the mid 1960s. The article has passed a GA review and a Military History A-Class review. I offer my thanks in advance to those who take the time to review and comment on this nomination. — Bellhalla (talk) 17:06, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:49, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - File:USS West Bridge (ID-2888).jpg isn't a work of the US Government; it was taken by the ship's builder, J.F. Duthie & Company. Therefore, {{PD-USGov-Military-Navy}} doesn't apply. Is there any evidence the photo is in the public domain (i.e., published before 1923)? I believe (though may not be correct so a second opinion may be warranted) that copyright for "works for hire", under which this should fall, lasts for either 95 years from publication or, if unpublished, 125 years from the date of creation, whichever happens first. Since the photo was taken in 1918, the 125-year limit would be 2043. So unless proof can be found that this image is in the public domain, it needs to go. The other two photos look fine though. Parsecboy (talk) 02:25, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I will agree that it should not have been tagged with
{{PD-USGov-Military-Navy}}
since it seems to clearly not have been taken by the Navy. I'm not sure I buy the "work for hire" argument for this image, though. The caption on the image states, the photograph of the ship—built under government contract—was taken by "J.F. Duthie & Co., Seattle" on behalf of the "United States Shipping Board, E.F.C.". If it is a "work for hire", as you contend, the client would then be either the United States Shipping Board or its Emergency Fleet Corporation, both of which are units of the federal government, thus making the image in the public domain. - However, regardless of my lay-interpretation of the caption, the immediate source of this particular scan of the image is the Naval History & Heritage Command website (link) which states that the original came from the National Archives' Record Group 19-LCM. According the National Archives website, Record Goup 19-LCM is the series "Construction and Launching of Ships, compiled ca. 1930 - ca. 1955" (ARC ID: 512915), a part of Record Group 19: "Records of the Bureau of Ships, 1940 - 1966)" (ARC ID: 348). According to the website, the use restrictions for 19-LCM are listed as "unrestricted". (Can be verified by searching "512915" at http://research.archives.gov/search) — Bellhalla (talk) 17:28, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I guess that's fine then. I was just taking my understanding of the copyright laws and applying it to this photo. My reasoning was that since the photo was taken by an employee as J.F. Duthie & Co, as part of his or her official duties (i.e., his boss told him to take the picture), it qualifies as a "work for hire," and the business should legally retain the copyright, regardless of what they then did with the photo (except of course, if they released it to PD or it was published before 1923). Like I said, I'm no expert on copyright stuff, so I may be reading too much into this. Maybe it'd be best to leave it in for now until someone with more expertise can give us a better answer. Parsecboy (talk) 03:29, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I will agree that it should not have been tagged with
- Comments
- Some of the incomplete dates given make the article feel vague and make the chronology a bit difficult to follow. For example:
- In the last sentence of the Torpedo attack section - it should be made clear that "through 1 December" means 1 December 1919, given that the ship required seven months of repairs starting at the end of 1918. The lead is actually clearer on this than the main body of the article; giving the full date.
- The lead is again more informative as to the date of transfer of the ship to the USSR. The lead states May 1945 whereas the main article just says 1945.
- The article is on a U.S. subject and uses U.S. sentence constructions but uses European day first date formatting.
- Why are USMC, FESCO USSB and other abbreviations given in small caps? I can see that some of these are formatted using a template but there doesn't appear to be a requirement for this in the Manual of Style and it is inconsistent with other abbreviations - GRT, KW and DWT are not given in small caps.
- An old American typesetting convention for small caps is to use them for acronyms or initialisms of four or more characters. You are right there is no requirement in the MOS for this, but, on the other hand, neither is there a prohibition. — Bellhalla (talk) 11:11, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- You could link the NY Times article cited in ref 20 to this in the New Yorks archive.--DavidCane (talk) 01:21, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Some of the incomplete dates given make the article feel vague and make the chronology a bit difficult to follow. For example:
- Support, concerns addressed. --Laser brain (talk) 17:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Oppose for now, under 1b and MoS concerns, mainly.Bellhalla, you've spoiled us in the past with rich details of design and construction (remembering SS Kroonland now); is there really no more available? Details:[reply]"After the ship was decommissioned from the Navy, she was restored to the name SS West Bridge" I don't follow. How was she restored to a name she already had?- I'm at odds with the explanation above about the USSB/NOTS templates and small caps. It may be an old typesetting standard, but that is no reason to use it in an electronic medium. To make matters worse, you have other acronyms in the article that are in standard caps. Please, it's extremely ungainly.
- Many other FAs I have written (including SS Kroonland you mentioned above) use the same style for acronyms or initialisms longer than three characters and it's never been an issue before. Too many capital letters in a row can dominate a line of text and unnecessarily draw attention to a word or phrase so styled; this is the underlying reason that typing in ALL CAPS on the Internet is considered to be shouting by most folks. As an extreme example of how all caps text can dominate a reader's attention, take a look at this extreme example. (Personally, I think a lot of what's in that example is overly jargony and not suited for a general-interest encyclopedia, but that's another issue.) — Bellhalla (talk) 20:49, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I still don't like it, mostly because of the contrast between the small caps acronyms and the standard caps acronyms. But, the issue clearly transcends this particular article. --Laser brain (talk) 17:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Many other FAs I have written (including SS Kroonland you mentioned above) use the same style for acronyms or initialisms longer than three characters and it's never been an issue before. Too many capital letters in a row can dominate a line of text and unnecessarily draw attention to a word or phrase so styled; this is the underlying reason that typing in ALL CAPS on the Internet is considered to be shouting by most folks. As an extreme example of how all caps text can dominate a reader's attention, take a look at this extreme example. (Personally, I think a lot of what's in that example is overly jargony and not suited for a general-interest encyclopedia, but that's another issue.) — Bellhalla (talk) 20:49, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The Design and construction section is oddly sparse. It's dominated by measurements and metric conversions that give it a clunky look and make me want to run away. Comprehensiveness is an issue. Where is the information about the design process? Why and how was it designed? Who designed it? How was it built? Very little information is here; the section might as well be named "Measurements".- I've reworked the section to provide some information on the ordering of the ship and tried to rearrange so as not to be jut a rehash of the infobox stats. I haven't found any sources that talk about how the design was developed; in my experience, those sorts of details are not usually preserved for cargo ships (as opposed to warships or large passenger vessels, like Kroonland). — Bellhalla (talk) 20:49, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- --Laser brain (talk) 21:17, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Excellent work, but what happened to the Hawaiian-American ships? Are we done with those? Karanacs (talk) 21:22, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. This is a clear, concise, and well-written article. It's understandable to someone with limited nautical knowledge, and the citations appear to be accurate and appropriate. I had a few comments and questions, but none detracted from my understanding of the subject. Good work! JKBrooks85 (talk) 05:40, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Is there some kind of wikilink that would work for laid up? I know what it means, but it might be a bit of jargon for ESL speakers.
- I personally don't think it's a big deal, but you might consider adding Croatia after Split in the lead. My FAC got dinged for not having country/province identifiers.
- When was the WWI armament removed? I'd suggest adding the WWII Soviet-added armament to the general characteristics section.
- Was any armament added by the USMC in WWII?
- I turned on links in that first conversion template for long tons, since I didn't know what that was.
- I'm not sure if things should be linked once in the lede, then again in the main body (West Coast of the United States, etc.)
- One of the torpedo hits was near the No. 3 hold ... how many holds did the ship have?
- You mention the survivors of the torpedo attack "situated themselves about ..."; were they in lifeboats or just adrift?
- I'd suggest a trans-wiki link to "founder" in reference to the piece about the Montanan's end.
- I assume this is the case, but is there some kind of nautical style that doesn't require "the" before the name of a ship?
- Should convoy names be hyphenated? The WWI has a hyphen, but the WWII one was not.
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The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:24, 6 June 2009 [11].
Robert Hues
This article was previously nominated but not promoted because insufficient editors reviewed the article. All the concerns raised by editors who provided suggestions have been addressed. I am therefore renominating the article in the hope that it will receive more reviews this time. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 07:32, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Question, seeing as this is a biographical article, why is the main picture the title page of one of the subjects works, and not a picture of the person itself?--Otterathome (talk) 12:13, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: No portrait has been located yet, and since this is a 16th-century personage it seems rather unlikely that one will turn up. Perhaps there is a likeness in Christ Church Cathedral or in some other church? — JackLee, 18:26, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image review (see Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Robert Hues/archive1). There are no new images at this time. Awadewit (talk) 14:05, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: It would be great if someone in Oxford could take a photograph of Hues' memorial brass in Christ Church Cathedral. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 08:55, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments I am leaning towards support, but I have some questions first:
An anonymous 17th-century manuscript states that Hues circumnavigated the world with Cavendish between 1586 and 1588 "purposely for taking the true Latitude of places" - This is actually sourced to the manuscript - is this OR? Has anyone published this connection before?
he may have been the "NH" who wrote a brief account of the voyage that was published by Hakluyt in his 1589 work The Principall Navigations, Voiages, and Discoveries of the English Nation - This is sourced to the 1589 work itself - is this OR? Has anyone published this connection before?
Could we get a translation of the Latin inscription in the "Later life" section?- Comment: I tried leaving a message at "la:Vicipaedia:Taberna" previously, but there were no takers. Have left another one. — JackLee, 18:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed: Some editors have provided assistance, so there is now a translation. Further tweaking by Latin-literate editors is welcome. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 06:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Is it necessary to list each and every printing of the Tractatus in this article?
- Comment: Doesn't this shed interesting light on the popularity of the work in the 16th and 17th centuries? — JackLee, 18:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Why were the sources listed in the "Further reading" not used for the article?
- Comment: Because I thought the existing references were sufficient. — JackLee, 18:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm asking since there are so few used - do the "Further reading" sources have more information? Awadewit (talk) 01:25, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure. I came across them while reading the references that were used in the article, and thought they would be useful if listed in the "Further reading" section. I'd have to look them up (if they are available where I live). — JackLee, 04:48, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Since there are so few sources used in the article, it seems like looking them up would be a good idea. Will you have a chance in the next week or so? Awadewit (talk) 01:49, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've checked the items in the "Further reading" list. Here in Singapore, I only have access to four of them: Notes and Queries, Renaissance Quarterly, Transactions of the Royal Historical Society and Atomism in England from Hariot to Newton. Notes and Queries is not useful for incorporating into the article, but Renaissance Quarterly (which I accessed through JSTOR) is, and I've already done so. I will have to access the other two in print. Other editors with access to the remaining items will have to help determine if they contain useful information. I hope this is not a deal-breaker. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 15:16, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I am going to the library myself today and I'll see what I have access to. Thanks so much for doing this! Awadewit (talk) 15:26, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- See my notes at Talk:Robert Hues#Library trip. Awadewit (talk) 05:45, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Have read chs. 2–4 of Atomism in England and added some information to the article. I also found a useful journal article online which clarifies the controversy over whether Harriot, Hues and Warner were Northumberland's "Three Magi". I think that's it for now. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 08:55, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- See my notes at Talk:Robert Hues#Library trip. Awadewit (talk) 05:45, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I am going to the library myself today and I'll see what I have access to. Thanks so much for doing this! Awadewit (talk) 15:26, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've checked the items in the "Further reading" list. Here in Singapore, I only have access to four of them: Notes and Queries, Renaissance Quarterly, Transactions of the Royal Historical Society and Atomism in England from Hariot to Newton. Notes and Queries is not useful for incorporating into the article, but Renaissance Quarterly (which I accessed through JSTOR) is, and I've already done so. I will have to access the other two in print. Other editors with access to the remaining items will have to help determine if they contain useful information. I hope this is not a deal-breaker. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 15:16, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Since there are so few sources used in the article, it seems like looking them up would be a good idea. Will you have a chance in the next week or so? Awadewit (talk) 01:49, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure. I came across them while reading the references that were used in the article, and thought they would be useful if listed in the "Further reading" section. I'd have to look them up (if they are available where I live). — JackLee, 04:48, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm asking since there are so few used - do the "Further reading" sources have more information? Awadewit (talk) 01:25, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Because I thought the existing references were sufficient. — JackLee, 18:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for so carefully assembling this article! The details in the footnotes were exceptional. I really appreciated those. Awadewit (talk) 14:05, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- You're welcome, and thanks for taking the time to review the article. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 18:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:24, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Note I've left a note for Laser brain since he reviewed this article last time it was up for FAC. Awadewit (talk) 15:52, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - engaging, well-written and particularly well-researched, in my view this important contribution satisfies the criteria. Graham Colm Talk 12:42, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Leaning support, my comments:
- The first paragraph of the lead doesn't feel... leadish, more like a laundry list of movements of the subject. There's a lot of repetitious structure (Hues did this, Hues did that) that might be contributing to it. As it stands, it doesn't make me want to read on. Try changing the syntax and slimming down to just the highlights.
- "During the voyage, while in the South Atlantic Hues made astronomical observations, and also observed the variation of the compass there and at the Equator. " Not sure if that's grammatically incorrect, but I'll be damned if it isn't awkward-sounding.
- Reading on there's a continuing appearance of some rather strange wording, such as "At the age of 18 years, in 1571, he entered"... generally it would be better to preface with the date, i.e. "In 1571, at the age of 18 years..." Another example, "Following Grey's death, in 1616".
- "At Oxford, a servitor was an undergraduate student who worked as a servant for fellows of the University in exchange for free accommodation and some meals, and exemption from paying fees for lectures." This comes off as extraneous that breaks the nice flow you've got. It's certainly interesting info that's germane, but it's not really proper inline; perhaps consider making an annotations section for content like this?
- "Hues returned to England with Davis in 1593. During the voyage, while in the South Atlantic he made astronomical observations of the Southern Cross and other stars of the Southern Hemisphere, and also observed the variation of the compass there and at the Equator.[14] After reaching home, Hues published his discoveries in the work..." More awkward placement. The "during the voyage" sentence should come before the mention of his return. Also, with the "unfortunately" and the death of Cavendish right before, it casts some doubt as to whether they actually completed the circumnavigation or not. Please clarify for us unknowledgeable folks. :)
- "The book was written to explain the use of the terrestrial and celestial globes that had been made and published by Emery Molyneux in late 1592 or early 1593,[16] and apparently to encourage English sailors to use practical astronomical navigation,[2] although Lesley Cormack has observed that the fact the book was written in Latin suggests that it was aimed at scholarly readers on the Continent." scratch the "and" from "and apparently", makes it sound more joined, although the phrasing sounds like Molyneux published it to encourage the English, not Hues.
- Some people or phrases that, in addition to their wikilink, should probably have some small explanation of what they are: rhumb lines, John Davis
- "and were usually called the Earl of Northumberland's THREE MAGI" -> any reason for the small caps here, rather than quotes?
- "Hues, who did not marry, died on 24 May 1632 in Stone House, St. Aldate's (opposite the Blue Boar in central Oxford),[35] which was the house of John Smith, M.A., the son of J. Smith, a cook at Christ Church.[14]" Could you cast aside some of these commas and make multiple straightforward sentences? --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 00:08, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
- "At Oxford, a servitor was an undergraduate student..." What do you think about perhaps moving this into a footnote that would appear right after "servitor"?
- "He gave advice to the dramatist and poet..." Perhaps "He would later give advice..." or "He would apply his knowledge of Greek..." and then "George Chapman for his _insert year_ English" just to make the timeline a bit clearer.
- "According to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, there is unsubstantiated evidence" Well, ODNB articles list their sources, so this theory probably originated somewhere else, not the ODNB. :) Care to do a little more digging? (What evidence/why unsubstantiated?)
- "an undated source " Could we be a bit more explicit here on what this means (either in text or as a footnote)?
- "Unfortunately, Cavendish died " One of those words to avoid; in any case, deaths are always unfortunate. :) Perhaps be a bit clearer here instead ("Cavendish's death cut short the voyage" or similar...that is the case right?).
- What's the reason for the format of "THREE MAGI"?
- "allied subjects " I'm unfamiliar with what this means.
- I noticed that some of your sentences that are based on the ODNB article skirt a bit closely to the original wording. Please double check these and recast if necessary. This is probably the only thing that would prevent me from supporting.
- I see now that I'm just echoing David on some of my points...great minds, etc., etc.? :)
- Good work. BuddingJournalist 07:05, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support and comments A nice article, just a couple of quibbles
- In the lead, there are a couple of sentences where beginning with the date makes it a bit clunky. To me at least, Between 1586 and 1588, Hues travelled with Thomas Cavendish on a circumnavigation of the globe, reads better as Hues travelled with Thomas Cavendish on a circumnavigation of the globe between 1586 and 1588 I note that this contradicts an earlier comment
- I also don’t like the list of printing dates in the lead.
- There is some unnecessary linking, Does "£" really need a link, and I wouldn’t have linked Oxford either
- I note your reason for the THREE MAGI capitalisation, but I'm not fully convinced that the original style should be kept
None of the above are big deals jimfbleak (talk) 06:27, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for taking the time to review the article. I am currently in Beijing, and have realized it may be difficult for me to have regular Internet access, so I will look into all the above points when I return to Singapore by Saturday, 6 June. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 12:58, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Prose looks ok. Some of the paragraphs are dauntiingly large. Tony (talk) 14:53, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Who did the translation from Latin in "Later life"? Can it be sourced? "... all kinds of ... " ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:40, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:24, 6 June 2009 [12].
U.S. Route 41 in Michigan
- Nominator(s): Imzadi1979 (talk) 05:15, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because I feel the last nomination's remaining issues have been corrected. The last nomination discussion closed with a single oppose factored over sources, including using two DOT press releases as sources. The section on the Interstate Bridge has been expanded with the newspaper clippings obtained as the last FAC was closed, removing the press release source. The other press release is still used as a source only to verify the date of transfer of the now former business loop in Marquette from state to city jurisdiction. The reference desk at the Peter White Public Library in Marquette was unable to find any articles in the Marquette Mining Journal that cover the transfer at the time it was completed, leaving the MDOT press release as the only acceptible source giving the date of transfer. Imzadi1979 (talk) 05:15, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
- I'm not at school anymore; otherwise I would help you out with this article. Apologies there...
- "US 41 was an original US Highway first designated in 1926. It replaced the original M-15 designation of the highway, which ran from Menominee to Marquette, Houghton and ended in Copper Harbor."
- Copyedit needed here. "was an original" -> "first designated" doesn't sound right, and should "from Menominee to Marquette, Houghton and ended in Copper Harbor" be "from Menominee through Marquette to Houghton and ending in Copper Harbor"?
- "Realignments and construction projects have expanded the highway to four lanes in Delta and Marquette counties. These changes also created three business loops off the main highway."
- Try "Realignments and construction projects have expanded the highway to four lanes in Delta and Marquette counties and have also created three business loops off the main highway."
- "The 279.167-mile (449.276 km) highway comprises mostly two lanes, undivided except for the sections that are concurrent with US 2 near Escanaba and M-28 near Marquette."
- Try "The 279.167-mile (449.276 km) highway is comprised of two lanes for much of its length; it is undivided except for sections that are concurrent with US 2 near Escanaba and M-28 near Marquette."
- "US 41/M-28 is a four-lane expressway along the "Marquette Bypass", and segments of the highway in Delta and Marquette counties have four lanes.[5]"
- What about the concurrent US 2 section?
- "The highway meets the southern terminus of M-35 before following 10th Avenue north out of town east of the Menominee–Marinette Airport and west of the Bay of Green Bay.[7]"
- Would "intersects" be preferable to "meets"?
- "The highway meets the southern terminus of M-35 before following 10th Avenue north out of town east of the Menominee–Marinette Airport and west of the Bay of Green Bay.[7]"
- Confusing to me. "North", "east", and "west" all in quick succession...
- "The highway runs north through rolling farmland in the central Menominee County communities of Wallace, Stephenson, and the twin communities of Carney and Nadeau."
- "rolling farmland"? What is that? Also, I may know what you mean by Carney and Nadeau being twin communities, but not many others will...is there something you could link that too?
- "M-94 follows US 41 for approximately 2 miles (3 km) near Skandia, before it turns westward to provide access to K. I. Saywer, a former air force base. "
- Does this means that M-94 runs to Sawyer and ends?
- "US 41 turns north solo from Covington, crossing the Sturgeon River, on the way to the historic sawmill town of Alberta.[5]"
- "Solo" seems colloquial...
- "Continuing north from Alberta, US 41 enters the town of L'Anse on the east side of Keweenaw Bay, rounding the bay to the town of Baraga." [...] "North of Hancock, US 41 passes the Houghton County Memorial Airport before reaching the towns of Calumet and Laurium."
- L'Anse, Calumet and Laurium are villages, no? At the least, Calumet is—it might have been huge at one point in time (wasn't it considered as a possible place for the state capital once?), but it is now a very small place.
- "The first highway designated along the path of the modern US 41 was M-15, in use as far back as 1919.[20]"
- Try "The first highway designated along the path of the modern US 41 was M-15; the designation was used from 1919[20]–November 11, 1926, when the U.S. Highway System was announced.[2] This resulted in US 41's routing over the alignment of M-15.[21]"
- "Around 1930, the northern terminus of US 41 was extended easterly from Copper Harbor to Fort Wilkins State Park.[22]"
- Is "easterly" even a word...?
- ""Menominee" in the local Menominee language means "wild rice"."
What in the world does this have to do with the paragraph it is in, let alone this article...?- Oh, got it now. Is there any way to combine the above with the preceding sentence to keep everything in one thought?
- "MDOT has listed it as "one of Michigan's most important vehicular bridges"."
- Why? Because of its engineering and architectural significance?
- "Another abandoned bridge is now privately owned and in use at the mouth of the Backwater Creek on the Keweenaw Bay near L'Anse. The bridge was constructed in 1918 for $4,536 (equivalent to $64,912 in 2009).[34][62] It is an 80-foot (24 m) Warren truss design now situated on private property.[62] This abandoned bridge was listed on the National Register in 1999."
- "privately owned" and "private property" seems redundant. Also, a ref for the last sentence?
- "As of 2009, MDOT has not included the bridge on its inventory online."
- Not liking the time aspect here.
- "Signage for the Veterans Memorial Highway just west of the Ishpeming city line"
- O_o "signage" is actually a word? I thought my Dad made it up :P
- Hope these comments help. Cheers! —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 06:45, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Replies to Ed17:
- I incorporated some of your copy editing suggestions, but not all of them. Some are personal preference/stylistic reasons, and either the existing text or your suggestions were equally appropriate, and I just preferred the current text.
- "US 41/M-28 is a four-lane expressway along the "Marquette Bypass", and segments of the highway in Delta and Marquette counties have four lanes.[5]" — The concurrent US 2 section is in Delta County. The only reason M-28 is specifically mentioned in that sentence is that the specific section of US 41 mentioned as an expressway is US 41/M-28.
- M-94 does run to K.I. Sawyer and ends at M-553 on the other side. I'm lost as to what you're questioning there.
- Calumet, Laurium and L'Anse may hold the legal status as a village, but they are still towns in the generic sense. Mackinaw City is also a village, but Mackinac Island is legally a city.
- Yes, "easterly" and "signage" are words.
- Private property (as in land) and private ownership of a (highway) bridge aren't necessarily going to follow. MDOT or the county road commission could own the bridge even if a private landowner owns the surrounding property.
- As for the time aspect of the "As of 2009, MDOT..." what would you suggest? The usage of the {{As of}} template will aid in updating the article, instead of just saying "currently"... I'm not sure what to suggest to change this situation since MDOT could always list the bridge in their inventory, but it is rather odd that they haven't yet.
- Thanks for the suggestions. Imzadi1979 (talk) 05:09, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm not sure, it looks like references 60, 45, 46, 47 have extra "p"s (there are two when there should be one because the page is singular) and reference 9 uses "Page" when "p." should be used for consistency with the rest of the article. I didn't fix these because I'm not sure about them, but it would be appreciated if you could take a look. Mm40 (talk) 10:53, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The "A1+" implies that more than one page was used (A1 and after), so I'm fairly certain that it's correct. –Juliancolton | Talk 14:55, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- That's correct. The articles are continued on a discontinuous page, either A3 or A5, hence the "+" signs. As for reference 9, I've asked that the {{cite map}} template used be updated for consistency. Imzadi1979 (talk) 05:09, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- {{cite map}} was updated to use the p. convention. Imzadi1979 (talk) 04:45, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- That's correct. The articles are continued on a discontinuous page, either A3 or A5, hence the "+" signs. As for reference 9, I've asked that the {{cite map}} template used be updated for consistency. Imzadi1979 (talk) 05:09, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The "A1+" implies that more than one page was used (A1 and after), so I'm fairly certain that it's correct. –Juliancolton | Talk 14:55, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
- 1.1 - The highway meets the southern terminus of M-35 before following 10th Avenue north out of town between the Menominee–Marinette Airport and the Bay of Green Bay.[7] The highway runs north through rolling farmland in the central Menominee County communities of Wallace, Stephenson, and the twin communities of Carney and Nadeau. - change
- At Powers, US 41 joins with US 2. - a bit choppy
- 1.3 - US 41 enters Houghton along Townsend Drive on the campus of MTU then passes along College Avenue into downtown. - seems like a run-on.
- Sheldon Ave - expand.
- The road way continues east -> The roadway continues east
- Section 3 has a sentence with 5 citations in a row. Is there any way to break it up?
- 3.1 - In the last paragraph, some of the sentences are a bit choppy.
- Same for the first paragraph of 3.2.
- These sculptures were added in addition to the other decorative elements added to the new bridge including the railings and light poles. .[47] - looks like an extra space?
- I'm guessing that this is the case, but... are there no mileposts for some items in the junction table?
This article is well-written and comprehensive; just a few changes are needed before I can support it. --Rschen7754 (T C) 06:26, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I made some copy edits. The five citations in a row may look out of place, but the source used only has the NRHP sites listed by county, and the entire sentence references places in 5 counties. The only source I have for mileposting information is the Control Section/Physical Reference Atlas, which does not have control points at all of the junctions listed. I hope this clears up things for you, let me know if you have any further suggestions. Imzadi1979 (talk) 20:53, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support issues addressed. --Rschen7754 (T C) 21:06, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)
- "historic character by various organizations." I think "significance" would be a better word than "character".
- "the bridge continues to carry traffic
todayalthough" Redundant through use of present tense. - "Today, drivers cannot use the " Another unnecessary usage of "[t]oday." Audit througout for this dated word.
- "Sheridan Road was created in the early 20th century connecting Chicago with Fort Sheridan north of the city." "early 20th"-->early-20th; I think a semicolon is needed to improve the flow: "Sheridan Road was created in the early-20th century; it connected [connects?] Chicago with Fort Sheridan north of the city."
- "
Historically, there have been three business loops for US 41. " - "locally-controlled roadway" -ly adverbs don't need hyphens. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:51, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Replies to Dabomb87
- I've made some copy edits to remove the word "today" from the text.
- A semicolon would be wrong in that context as semicolons are used in place of conjunctions. I don't think a comma is even appropriate there, but I"m not sure.
- As for the hyphen suggestions, I respectfully disagree. In the first example, early modifies the term "20th century" but "20th century" is an object, not a compound adjective. In the second example, "locally" and "controlled" should be hyphenated. "Locally-controlled" is one concept that is modifying the word "roadway". Without the word "locally", the word "controlled" takes on a totally different meaning in regards to a roadway.
- Thank you for the suggestions. I've implemented the ones that make sense in the article. Imzadi1979 (talk) 23:07, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I will let the "century" hyphen issue go, but "locally controlled" does not need a hyphen as an -ly adverb implies that it is linked to the verb it is modifying. See MOS. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:22, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I still disagree, but the point is moot with a copy edit to reword the sentence slightly. Imzadi1979 (talk) 23:59, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, great work. –Juliancolton | Talk 16:15, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, 1a and 1c. It's not a bad start, but lots of work is needed. The prose is rough in places, as delineated below, and more. The History section is woefully researched—most of it is sourced to maps, which only provide a aesthetic history. Some time is needed in a library to sift through local and regional newspapers to discover the stories and issues that surrounded the highway's history.- Is any information available on Priscilla Press? They don't appear to even have a web site. How do we know it's not a vanity publisher? I have doubts about the suitability of Barnett as a reliable source.
- You define and use "UP" once in the lead and once more in the body, but use "Upper Peninsula" everywhere else. Suggest getting rid of the overly-colloquial former.
- "US 41 serves as a major conduit for Michigan traffic" What is the definition of "major conduit"? Most often used? Heavily used?
- "Most of the highway is listed on the National Highway System." Why not all? The mention later goes into no more detail and is of no help.
- "The highway is known for a number of historic bridges including a lift bridge, the northernmost bridge in the state and a bridge called "one of Michigan's most important vehicular bridges" by the Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT)." Serial comma?
- "Trunkline" is jargon.. wikilink or explain.
- "The current bridge was last used for railroad traffic in the summer of 1982, when the Soo Line rail lines in Houghton and northward were abandoned starting in 1976." I don't follow how it was used for railroad traffic in 1982 when the lines were abandoned in 1976.
- No need to specify acronyms you never use again (WisDOT).
- "This reconstruction was completed ahead of schedule, with the span reopening on November 22, 2005." Revise to eliminate the noun plus -ing construction and "with" connector.
- "These sculptures were added in addition to the other decorative elements added to the new bridge including the railings and light poles." Revise to get rid of some of the "added ... addition ... added"
- "Five other bridges are listed on the NRHP and the Michigan SRHS addition to any inclusion on the MDOT Historic Bridge Inventory." I couldn't follow this. Addition to any inclusion?
- "As of 2009[update], MDOT has not included the bridge on its inventory online." What is the significance of this statement?
- "The bridge has remained in service since construction essentially unaltered." Oddly phrased, suggests the "construction" essentially unaltered... something.
- "... and only the Jacobetti and Veterans memorial highways still have signage posted on the side of the road." Without the context you will doubtless provide later, this means nothing to the read. There are other problems with this sentence. "Memorial Highways" should surely be capitalized since it is part of the title; "at the side of the road"?
- Fix ellipses in quotations per WP:ELLIPSES.
- "MDOT unveiled plans on March 31, 2009, to rebuild" What is the comma doing?
- "roundabout retaining the current right-turn lanes from the current intersection layout." Spot the redundant word.
- "MDOT has stated that many of the concerns expressed are due to misconceptions of the design and will not come to pass." The concerns won't come to pass? They already have. Or do you mean that the perceived problems won't come to pass?
- "Historically, there have been three business loops for US 41." This is redundant. If you use the past tense, you don't need to say "historically". I see another reviewer has already brought this up.
- --Laser brain (talk) 17:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, I gave the article a copy edit per your suggestions, but I have a few comments.
- LeRoy Barnett, PhD is the retired Head of Reference for the Michigan State Archives according to the jacket of the book. The forward to his book was written by Gloria Jeff, then director of MDOT, and signed as "Gloria Jeff, Director, Michigan Department of Transportation". The book also credits Michigan History magazine, the Michigan Bureau of History, the Grand Rapids Public Library, the Newberry Library, Wayne State University, the Burton Historical Collections, MDOT, "various county road commissions", the State Archives, the MDOT Photo Lab and the LIbrary of Michigan as sources. According to [13] the company has published other Michigan historical books, and the Michigan Department of History, Arts and Libraries recommends another of their books at [14] as further reading on the history of Michigan.
- There is no source given as to why MDOT didn't list all of the highway on the NHS, just that only part of it was.
- State-maintained highways in Michigan are legally called "state trunkline highways". The first usage of the term in the lead is already wikilnked to the article on the system.
- I didn't capitalize "memorial highways" in that sentence for the same reason I don't capitalize "counties" at the end of a list of county names:. ie. Marquette and Baraga counties vs. Marquette County. Likewise Jacobetti and Veterans memorial highways vs. Jacobetti Memorial Highway.
- The oppose is stated as under criteria 1a and 1c, and I would like some clarification. I can understand if you don't like my writing style; you've opposed over that before on a different article. The solution is for us to partner to polish prose collaboratively. You've stated an opposition to the quality of the research, but not the comprehensiveness of the article (criterion 1b). The article covers the major high points of the history of the roadway: the historic bridges built to carry it, the memorial designations applied to it and the physical changes made to the pavement. There are other changes made to the highway, which are mostly minor realignments to straighten curves in the routing. These minor changes were left out, even though they too could be added and documented on the maps of the time. The changes given are easily referenced to the various maps I own. What would be gained by researching old newspapers except to change the source of the information from a map to a news story? As I stated in the renomination above, the final transfer of the business loop through Marquette from state to city jurisdiction didn't even warrant a news story, meaning the best source for the date of the change remains an MDOT press release. The previous FAC discussion approved of the use of maps from the agency that owns the road as one of the best sources to document the changes made to the road.
- Ok, I gave the article a copy edit per your suggestions, but I have a few comments.
- Any further comments are appreciated. Please feel free to copy edit the article directly at any time. Another option would be to contact me on my talk page to collaborate on any copy editing. Imzadi1979 (talk) 23:12, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, an additional comment in explanation. Today I was informed of a "Memorandum of Understanding" from May 13, 2009 which extended M-30 south 4.83 miles along Meridian Road in Midland County. Legally, this section of road is now a state highway, and the transfer wasn't covered in any news source according to Google. This means until MDOT updates the map or posts signage in the field which can be photographed, only the MOU is a source for the transfer, no news stories, no articles, nothing. Imzadi1979 (talk) 23:19, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for responding. I actually listed all the prose problems I found, so there should be no need for me to edit the article or make additional suggestions unless future edits degrade the article. Your writing style is fine, but not perfect, nor is any of ours. As to my 1c objection, I feel I was clear about what I am looking for. I don't have a problem with your using maps for the aesthetic history of the road. However, there are always other news stories about budget, politics, historic events, etc. You will need to spend some time with a library database that indexes newspapers, or in a library that keeps physical or electronic archives of newspapers. Just for a relevant comparison, Zilwaukee Bridge could have a History section sourced to maps, but it would be boring and covering only aesthetics. However, if you dig into the Saginaw News and other area papers, you'll find tons of great stories about the construction and history of the bridge, the controversies, how we all thought it was going to sink into the river, etc. --Laser brain (talk) 00:46, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- That's an apples-to-oranges comparison. The construction of a major bridge always gets a significant amount of coverage in the media. Realignments of highway rarely do, unless it involves a freeway bypass of a community, and even in that case it is hit-or-miss. As an addendum, it's much easier to research a static structure situated in one location than it is to research a 270-plus mile highway that has a routing that can change and has changed many times. Once a bridge is completed, there's not much more to say about it. However, even after a road is completed (or initially assigned would probably be the equivalent here), its routing can and does change often, especially one this long. – TMF 01:22, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not talking about the realignment. That has been mentioned here but I'm not focused on that issue, nor have I even mentioned it. I'm talking about the entire history of the road. The proper research must be done, and it won't be accomplished via Google searches. I'm inflexible on this matter. --Laser brain (talk) 01:28, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, I'm confused here. The history of the road is covered in the article. The realignments since the 1926 designation of the highway have been covered. The historic bridges built for the highway are covered, dating back to 1914 with the construction of Trunk Line Bridge No. 1. The Memorial Highway designations for the road are covered back to 1917. The previous designation for the roadway is covered. Ok, so the part that under a draft of the original highway plan M-15 would have been part of 3 US highways and not one isn't in there, but that's trivial. (Menominee to Powers would have been US 41, Powers to Rapid River would have been just US 2, Rapid River to Covington would have been US 102 and Covington to Copper Harbor would have been US 41.) I can't include the first highway centerline story, since that section of M-15 was used for M-28, not US 41 between Negaunee and Marquette. I have more resources than just Google at my disposal here, historical books from MDOT, old maps, etc. What sorts of things do you want added to the article? Give me some hypothetical examples so I have an idea what it is you want. Imzadi1979 (talk) 02:23, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Right, as I acknowledged, you have covered the aesthetic history of the road. However, the research is necessary to find the human stories. Examples are decisions about routing, funding, conflicts and controversies, etc. Did two counties argue about where the road should go? Did a city lobby to have it go through without success? That kind of thing you will not find on maps and in MDOT reports. --Laser brain (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've just e-mailed the public libraries' reference desks for Menominee, Marquette, Escanaba, Grand Rapids, the Kent District Library and the Library of Michigan in Lansing. (I currently live in the Grand Rapids Metro area, not in the Marquette area that was home to me.) I would ask that if this research request is the only outstanding issue that the FAC be held open pending word back from the libraries in question. There's no guarantee that the newspapers of the time even covered the issues you describe, let alone that the issues even existed along any or all of the highway. I've already done database searches online through the KDL and turned up very little. What I have found is engineering studies from MDOT connected to construction projects, but no news coverage in the various databases. Imzadi1979 (talk) 22:50, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Right, as I acknowledged, you have covered the aesthetic history of the road. However, the research is necessary to find the human stories. Examples are decisions about routing, funding, conflicts and controversies, etc. Did two counties argue about where the road should go? Did a city lobby to have it go through without success? That kind of thing you will not find on maps and in MDOT reports. --Laser brain (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, I'm confused here. The history of the road is covered in the article. The realignments since the 1926 designation of the highway have been covered. The historic bridges built for the highway are covered, dating back to 1914 with the construction of Trunk Line Bridge No. 1. The Memorial Highway designations for the road are covered back to 1917. The previous designation for the roadway is covered. Ok, so the part that under a draft of the original highway plan M-15 would have been part of 3 US highways and not one isn't in there, but that's trivial. (Menominee to Powers would have been US 41, Powers to Rapid River would have been just US 2, Rapid River to Covington would have been US 102 and Covington to Copper Harbor would have been US 41.) I can't include the first highway centerline story, since that section of M-15 was used for M-28, not US 41 between Negaunee and Marquette. I have more resources than just Google at my disposal here, historical books from MDOT, old maps, etc. What sorts of things do you want added to the article? Give me some hypothetical examples so I have an idea what it is you want. Imzadi1979 (talk) 02:23, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not talking about the realignment. That has been mentioned here but I'm not focused on that issue, nor have I even mentioned it. I'm talking about the entire history of the road. The proper research must be done, and it won't be accomplished via Google searches. I'm inflexible on this matter. --Laser brain (talk) 01:28, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, an additional comment in explanation. Today I was informed of a "Memorandum of Understanding" from May 13, 2009 which extended M-30 south 4.83 miles along Meridian Road in Midland County. Legally, this section of road is now a state highway, and the transfer wasn't covered in any news source according to Google. This means until MDOT updates the map or posts signage in the field which can be photographed, only the MOU is a source for the transfer, no news stories, no articles, nothing. Imzadi1979 (talk) 23:19, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(undent) I've been in contact with research librarians at the Grand Rapids Public Library's History and Special Collections section. They ironically have forwarded my research request to Dr. Barnett for assistance who has conveyed to me via e-mail that the article is well written as it stands. He's pointed me to the Marquette County Historical Society Library and the Copper Country Archives at Michigan Technological University for further investigation. The GRHSC librarian expressed that the request for the information wanted by LaserBrain has "stumped" the staff. Once again I maintain that the information that's being requested may not even exist as there is no guarantee that an 82 year old highway has had any controversies unlike a major bridge project with an unfortunate accident during construction. In total now, I have been in touch with librarians from four libraries that have yet to find anything remotely close to what's being requested. Imzadi1979 (talk) 03:43, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I would recommend that this be treated as an unactionable oppose. It seems that if the information just cannot be found, this FAC shouldn't be failed on the grounds that it does not have information that cannot be found. --Rschen7754 (T C) 05:04, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Incidentally, I appreciate your explanation of the Barnett reference. I'm not sure you're right about the memorial highways thing, because you are still making it part of the proper noun. If I had been to Yankee Stadium and Shea Stadium, I wouldn't say, "I've been to Yankee and Shea stadiums" would I? I would capitalize Stadiums. --Laser brain (talk) 00:49, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- As discussed before on another forum, both "Yankee and Shea stadiums" as well as "Yankee and Shea Stadiums" (shouldn't that be stadia anyway?) would be correct. You wouldn't say ""Presidents Bush and Clinton", you'd say "presidents Bush and Clinton". I've kept consistent here since I used "Marquette and Baraga counties" in the article, why switch conventions to "Jacobetti and Veterans Hemorial Highways" toward the end of the article? Imzadi1979 (talk) 02:28, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, I would say "Presidents Bush and Clinton". In this use, it is part of the proper noun. "Drs. Smith and Johnson work at this hospital", etc. --Laser brain (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- As I discussed with an English-teacher friend of mine, we both could be right and we both could be wrong. Unlike the French Language, there is no academy that standardizes rules in the English Language. In the spirit of collaboration, I will change to your preferred usage in this sentence. Imzadi1979 (talk) 03:43, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Incidentally, I appreciate your explanation of the Barnett reference. I'm not sure you're right about the memorial highways thing, because you are still making it part of the proper noun. If I had been to Yankee Stadium and Shea Stadium, I wouldn't say, "I've been to Yankee and Shea stadiums" would I? I would capitalize Stadiums. --Laser brain (talk) 00:49, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - This article has the best prose and layout of any FA, GA or A-Class article I have ever seen. The article is complete, neat, well-organized and understandable; all references are in line and the works cited were cited as supposed to. –CG 17:52, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on an image issue:
- File:US 41 M-28 Marquette roundabout.jpg: where did Michigan Department of Transportation say they released this image into the public domain?
- File:Interstate Bridge MWMM.JPG: not a biggie, this image is awaiting OTRS (since 18 May 2009)
The first concern is more crucial. Awaiting feedback. Jappalang (talk) 10:20, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've forwared MDOT's release into OTRS, and marked the photo accordingly. Imzadi1979 (talk) 10:45, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added the proper OTRS link to the image in question. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 14:05, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The Interstate Bridge photo is licensed as CC-BY-SA 1.0 confirmed by OTRS. Imzadi1979 (talk) 22:41, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Is the 1.0 correct? I am a bit amazed that with us at the 3.0 stage, a request or permission would be given for 1.0 at this stage... Jappalang (talk) 01:22, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- That is what the OTRS editor tagged it as. If I was picking, it would be at 3.0.... it probably should be updated. Imzadi1979 (talk) 01:27, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry for going MIA... in the OTRS thread, the copyright holder specified CC-by-SA but did not name a specific CbSA license version. I put down the default until I could get back to the FAC. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 01:40, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh, my mistake, I misread the thread and didn't see how the copyright holder had given permission for the implementation of the license. Imzadi, could you please change the license to what you want (assuming 3.0) and then leave a note explaining that deference was given to you by the copyright holder just so it's clear to non-OTRS people what went down? --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 02:00, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I updated the licensing information in accordance with the OTRS ticket and noted that on the image's page. Imzadi1979 (talk) 03:43, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The other image's OTRS thing has been squared away, I believe. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 13:51, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh, my mistake, I misread the thread and didn't see how the copyright holder had given permission for the implementation of the license. Imzadi, could you please change the license to what you want (assuming 3.0) and then leave a note explaining that deference was given to you by the copyright holder just so it's clear to non-OTRS people what went down? --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 02:00, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Support if Laser brain does. until the writing is fixed up throughout. Here are examples just from the lead!
- "Along its 279.167-mile (449.276 km) route in the state, US 41 serves as a major conduit for Michigan traffic." Can we make it neater? "The 279 miles (449.276 km) of the US 41 that lie within Michigan serve as a major conduit." I don't think I've removed too much: where else would the conduit be, and for what else but traffic? Is the plural OK?
- "Along the route, US 41 passes through farm fields, forest lands, and along the Lake Superior shoreline." Three words are redundant. And there are really two, not three items in this list (through ... and ..., and along ...).
- Redundant "also" ("and" does the job perfectly well, but needs a preceding comma, since there are other ands in the vicinity).
- Included ... include ... including. bridges ... bridge ... bridge ... bridge.
- "called" -->"referred to as".
- "Seven different memorial ..."—Do we need "different"? Another "including. (We can cope with, say, two in a para, but not four; what about "..., one of them named for ..."?
- As much as I detest the dots, why are we free of these blessed fly spots (US, U.S.) half the time and not throughout, including the title? I think the WikiProject would object, actually, but make it consistent, please.
- "US 41 was an original US Highway first designated in 1926."—Hard to comprehend; is an "original" highway of special status? In any case, it doesn't go well with "first".
- Another idle "also". Please audit every "also" in the text; remove 95%. Tony (talk) 15:58, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've made some copy edits throughout the text of the article. As for the US/U.S. situation, I standardized on US. The article's title won't be changed since between the 49 DOTs that are responsible for maintaining sections of the United States Numbered Highway System, US #, U.S. # and US-# conventions are in place. The American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials uses U.S. Route and U.S. Highway in their internal documentation for the full name of the highways in question, which is why the "fly spots" were in use the way they were previously. Feel free to follow up with further suggestions or make copy edits to the article yourself. Imzadi1979 (talk) 19:22, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments — in regards to requests by LaserBrain above for research into more historical information on the highway, I have been in contact with librarians from the Spies Public Library in Menominee, the Peter White Public Library in Marquette, the Grand Rapids Public Library, the Kent District Library and the Library of Michigan in Lansing. I'm awaiting replies yet from the Copper Country Archives at Michigan Technological University in Houghton and the Marquette County Historical Society's library. I have e-mailed the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials (who are in charge of the US Highway numbers and routings). I've been in personal correspondence with LeRoy Barnett, author of one of the books cited in the article and retired head of reference with the State Archives. He's personally mailed me a copy of an article on the Military Road that he wrote that will allow me to add some 19th century history to the article for the section of the highway north of Houghton. With the exception of his article, nothing has been turned up that would satisfy LaserBrain's request. I submit that his oppose on criterion 1c is now unactionable because the article has been thoroughly researched, and what he desires does not exist. Imzadi1979 (talk) 05:16, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I really appreciate your dedication to looking into the issue! I've stricken my 1c opposition above—I'm satisfied all that could be done to research the history has been done. As for the 1a, I'll have to evaluate the text again especially in light of Tony's recent opposition. --Laser brain (talk) 18:33, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I second that. It really sets a great standard for US highway articles, which have often been little more than travelogues; Route 41 does offer rich pickings for history and research. I've fixed a few things in the history section. See the BBC's recent doco series The_Ascent_of_Money#Ep._2:_Human_Bondage for a fascinating account of how the Rothschild family's sitting on the sidelines and the confederate government's reliance on "cotton" bonds were critical ingredients in the outcome of the Civil War, as well as the attitude of the British government. (There was no "United Kindgom" by name, then, was there?). That "formatprice/inflation/current year" template ... I'd be happier if it said "roughly equivalent to"; or better still, "~ $x in 2009", but I suppose the tilde is a no-no. And is it worth translating 2004 dollars into 2009?The cost and price structures were so different in those days. See the recent discussion concerning the creation of a new, similar template (can't find link). I do hope you continue to prepare nominations. "Seven bridges along the US 41 corridor have been recognized for their historic character by various organizations." Since you say precisely which organisations, why not "have been officially reconized." "Various" is such a non-word. 4 ft = 1 m? Rough guess, 1.3 m? Is that the convert template at work again!? "Now the middle section is left in an intermediate position for the warmer nine months of the year
; in this position, so that vehicle traffic can useusethe lower deck of the lift span and pleasure craft can pass under the bridge." "Now" is when? It will date. "As of ?". Tony (talk) 13:17, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]- I will update some things later with your suggestions. (I'm just home on my lunch hour at the moment.) As for the UK vs. Great Britain mention, the Act of Union in 1801 merged Great Britain and Ireland to form the United Kingdom, so yes, during the American Civil War, it was the UK already. Either wording is really fine by me though. Thanks for the reviews. Hopefully LaserBrain comes back soon so we can start to wrap this nomination up. Imzadi1979 (talk) 20:08, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I second that. It really sets a great standard for US highway articles, which have often been little more than travelogues; Route 41 does offer rich pickings for history and research. I've fixed a few things in the history section. See the BBC's recent doco series The_Ascent_of_Money#Ep._2:_Human_Bondage for a fascinating account of how the Rothschild family's sitting on the sidelines and the confederate government's reliance on "cotton" bonds were critical ingredients in the outcome of the Civil War, as well as the attitude of the British government. (There was no "United Kindgom" by name, then, was there?). That "formatprice/inflation/current year" template ... I'd be happier if it said "roughly equivalent to"; or better still, "~ $x in 2009", but I suppose the tilde is a no-no. And is it worth translating 2004 dollars into 2009?The cost and price structures were so different in those days. See the recent discussion concerning the creation of a new, similar template (can't find link). I do hope you continue to prepare nominations. "Seven bridges along the US 41 corridor have been recognized for their historic character by various organizations." Since you say precisely which organisations, why not "have been officially reconized." "Various" is such a non-word. 4 ft = 1 m? Rough guess, 1.3 m? Is that the convert template at work again!? "Now the middle section is left in an intermediate position for the warmer nine months of the year
- Additional comments I dove into another random section (Business loops) and spotted more problems.
I don't think it's far off at this point, but I'm not ready to support because I'm still seeing things.- "There have been three business loops for US 41. These included the loops in Ishpeming–Negaunee, Marquette and Baraga." Why "included" when you've named all three? Normally, "including/ed" is used when you are giving representatives of a long list: "I bought five flavors of ice cream, including your favorite, blue moon."
- In the caption of the image there "The now former BUS US 41 along Washington Street in downtown Marquette" what is "now" doing? I see that in the accompanying prose as well. I know what you're trying to do with it, but does leaving it out really change the meaning? The "now" is implied.
- "It was later designated as BUS US 41/BUS M-28" In earlier constructions of this sort, you don't use "as" (and correctly so).
- "The proposed swap traded jurisdiction on the unsigned M-554 and the business route from the state to the city." This is confusing to me. First, the "swap traded" is ungainly. Second, it doesn't make sense because I don't see anything being "traded"; I just see jurisdiction being passed from the state to the city for two different roads.
- Later, you call it a transfer which seems more apt.
- --Laser brain (talk) 22:01, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've swept through that section mentioned, and Dank has given the article an unsolicited copy edit through other sections. Are we getting warmer? Imzadi1979 (talk) 02:48, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support as soon as LaserBrain and Tony are happy, with the standard disclaimer. I just finished some copyediting. - Dank (push to talk) 02:45, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for the copy edit. Imzadi1979 (talk) 02:48, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. I gave it another read-through and it's looking good. Thanks for the copyedit, DanK—a fresh pair of eyes is always helpful especially since I've been through it 2 or 3 times and Imzadi probably a hundred. --Laser brain (talk) 03:15, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- My pleasure. - Dank (push to talk) 03:34, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I'm satisfied that Tony's and Laser brains comments along with Dank's copy-edit have pushed this to FA quality. Great job (to both reviewers and nominator), and I'm impressed with the research. Dabomb87 (talk) 04:24, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Karanacs 16:40, 2 June 2009 [15].
Landing at Nadzab
I am nominating this for featured article because... One of the most imaginative operations of the Second World War in the Pacific, with parachuting and white-water rafting. Also, we have video... Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:35, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments Support
- The geography section seems a little out of place at the beginning - I'd suggest moving it lower down and having the strategies section to start off with.
- Done.
- 'By agreement among the Allied nations, in March 1942 the Pacific theatre was divided into the South West Pacific Area, with General Douglas MacArthur as Supreme Commander, and the Pacific Ocean Areas, under Admiral Chester W. Nimitz.' - Does this mean MacArthus was Surpeme Commander with Nimitz under him, or did Nimitz hold equal rank? That needs to be qualified.
- MacArthur was senior in rank, but neither was subordinate to the other. The two commands were completely separate. Attempted to explain this.
- What was 'Task One'?
- A moving target. Added a few words to explain this.
- 'Blamey's operational concept was for a double envelopment of Lae, using "two of the finest divisions on the Allied side",[12] with Major General George Wootten's 9th Division landing east of Lae in a shore-to-shore operation, while Major General George Alan Vasey's 7th Division, in a reprise of the Battle of Buna-Gona in 1942 would approach from the west by an overland route' - This needs to be broken down into two sentences really, it's a tad long.
- Done. Broken into three sentences.
- If the 7th was to establish a blocking position, what was the 9th to do? This needs to be clarified more clearly.
- Done. Added explanation.
- 'The plan called for the 7th Division to move in transports to Port Moresby and in coastal shipping to the mouth of the Lakekamu River' - Written like this it would seem to connect to the previous operation, so it should be clarified this is about the landing at Nadzab itself.
- Done.
- Why does the article concentrate more on the 7th than the 9th? I realize the 7th utilized the paratroopers, but some more details on the 9th's role during the planning stages would be good, even if just for completeness of the picture.
- Because the 9th Division operation has an entire article of its own (which I haven't written yet) called the Landing at Lae.
- 'Colonel Kenneth H. Kinsler, the commander of the 503rd Parachute Infantry Regiment' - Don't think you need the 503rd's full name here, as it was given two sentences prior.
- Okay.
- 'Needless to say, Vasey was less than impressed' - That seems a little informal, perhaps just 'When informed of this, Vasey was less than impressed'?
- Done.
- How can the two weather forecasting teams know nothing about the weather (odd in the first place given their profession!) but then apparently be correct in their prediction that the weather would clear on the day of the jump?
- A minor miracle really. Kenney wanted accurate forecasts days in advance but this was nearly impossible for the forecasters to do. Added some explanation. Of course it was much easier for Kenney, because he knew nothing about meteorology. Added explanation.
- 'Conditions were favourable, while the 85% humidity kept the screens effective for five minutes and stoped their dispersal for ten' - Just a slight spelling mistake.
- Well spotted.
- 'Brigadier Eather came up in his jeep and started urging the diggers to hurry up' - By 'diggers' do you mean Australians?
- Yes. Linked digger.
- Did 25th Infantry Brigade receive any casualties from 9th division artillery?
- Yes. Added text.
Otherwise, excellent work. Sort these out, and I think I'll support! Skinny87 (talk) 14:30, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image Review by NuclearWarfare
- File:Awm 128387 nadzab.jpg - I moved this to Commons and fixed it up myself. If there are only US planes involved, I assume it is OK to assume that someone from the US Army took this.
- Done. It is a US Army photo. It appears in Miller. But the AWM copy is nicer.
- File:Elkton Plan.jpg - Could you please add a better source? You will want the webpage the JPG is clickable to from. (It should be a html/pdf page rather than a JPG). After that, could you please ask me to move it to commons for you, if you don't know how to do that yourself?
- Done.
- File:Nadzab and Lae.jpg - Same as the above image.
- Done.
- File:Short 25pdr.jpg - Could you please put this in {{Information}}?
- Done.
- File:C-47 transport planes loaded for Nadzab .jpg - I'll move this to Commons; it looks good.
- File:2-4-FA regt in C-47.jpg - Can you add the ID number and replace the link in the source with the {{AWM-image}}?
- Done.
- File:Markham River Crossing.jpg - Looks good; I'll move it to Commons for you.
- File:Jacksons Strip.jpg - Looks good; I'll move it to Commons for you.
- File:Lae AWM015783.jpg - Looks good; I'll move it to Commons for you.
- All issues resolved with images. NW (Talk) (How am I doing?) 01:18, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments -
The websites in the notes need publishers. (This includes the Lowe, Yoshikhara and Watson refs in the references...)
- Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:28, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support This is an excellent article which meets the FA criteria. Nick-D (talk) 12:13, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support — AustralianRupert (talk) 10:47, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. The mark of a really good article is that it tells you all about something you never knew about, without making you feel you need to know more, and that while reading it no obvious ways to improve it spring to mind. This does that. – iridescent 20:29, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Great article.--Grahame (talk) 02:07, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Karanacs 16:40, 2 June 2009 [16].
Macaroni Penguin
I am nominating this for featured article because I feel it meets criteria. Oringally brought to GA status by LNG123, I copyedited and added facts and had Sasata help out with some more facts and copyediting to round it out. Have at it. Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:45, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment -
I haven't consulted it, but I'm curious that the OED entry referenced (currently as reference 4) is for 'Raven'.William Avery (talk) 08:15, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OpposePictures are way too damn cute. This is an obvious attempt to sway the reviewers. Will strike Oppose if Surgeon General warnings for hyper-cuteness are placed below all images. Ling.Nut (talk) 02:53, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- No way man! I always found Macaronis weird looking when compared against the much more photogenic Southern Rockhopper Penguin...now that is cute. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:34, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Image Review by NuclearWarfare - Two of the images are taken by a Wikipedian and published under a free license, and the other is a seemingly legitimate Creative Commons image from Flickr. Images are therefore good. NW (Talk) (How am I doing?) 04:16, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- "are poorly known, the successful ..." Here you can put a period (or full-stop, depending upon your persuasion), a semicolon or an endash, but a comma just won't do. I would have just fixed it, but there are stylistic options... Ling.Nut (talk) 04:25, 22 May 2009 (UTC) (semicoloned) Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:50, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Leaning Support. I don't expect anyone to find any hidden problems etc. If a big issue arises, please let me know. Otherwise +S. Ling.Nut (talk) 04:47, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Juliff, Peter (December 2008) appears to be an article from The Bird Observer – membership magazine of the Bird Observation & Conservation Australia (BOCA) organization. Not mentioned in cite. Ling.Nut (talk) 13:13, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support and comment COI - I did a superficial ce before this came to FAC, and I am a member of the bird project. Two minor points in refs to address jimfbleak (talk) 06:06, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ref 44 has a different date style to the rest- some of the isbn numbers retain hyphens, some don't, need to be consistent
- Comments -
Current ref 18 (Bernstein) is actually from Auk a journal. The section in the journal is Short Communications. Please fix to reflect its journal article status, not the website it's currently cited as.(sorry, fixed now (?)) Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:39, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What makes http://www.arkive.org/macaroni-penguin/eudyptes-chrysolophus/info.html a reliable source?
Current ref 29, (Bost..) are you citing the abstract or the actual article? If the article, it should be formatted as a journal article.
- Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:08, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support An excellent and very informative article! My only problem is that "with a minimum of 11,841,600 pairs of Macaroni Penguins worldwide." and "estimated at around 18 million individuals" contradict each other. Reywas92Talk 16:43, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- thanks - I was tempted to delete on but both were informative. One is a 1993 calculation, and the other 2004. There is also mention of a population fall. Hence the discrepancy. Shall I see if I can make it a little clearer? I was tempted to put "current" in but that is usually discouraged. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:06, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Karanacs 16:40, 2 June 2009 [17].
Polish culture during World War II
- Nominator(s): Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:54, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The article has undergone copyediting per last month request. For introduction and such, see the old nomination. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:54, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Very inconsistent formatting in references... A few are done with name-year notes that refer to books cited in the same format the "cite book" template generates (e.g., Madajczyk p.122... which refers to Madajczyk, Czesław. Polityka III Rzeszy w okupowanej Polsce, Tom II). However, a very large number are not. I suggest that you consistently follow the "cite book" format whenever you give the full reference information. The degree of inconsistency is so great that this is a deal-breaker for me; I will Oppose if it isn't cleared up in a few days. Ling.Nut (talk) 02:46, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- All books are now standardized and listed in the references section.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 13:54, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments - This'll do for a start:
- The first one that jumps out is that massive list of Polish authors/writers etc near the top of the article; it doesn't seem to do anything useful in the article, and to be honest it just looks awful. Please cut it down to a few of the most notable or well-known authors etc.
- Lead could do with an expansion given the size of the article overall.
- There is absolutely no background to the Polish occupation - I'd expect to see at least a general paragraph covering the lead up, ie the invasion, division between Germany and the USSR, etc.
- Staggering the pictures would also be a good idea.
- It still needs a good copy-edit, mainly for language flow - whilst it's all gramatically correct as far as I can see, it's rather stilted in places.
- Okay, that's the second huge, often red-linked, list of names I've seen - now it just looks like you're bulking the article up. Please trim them down to the most notable/important. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skinny87 (talk • contribs)
- A background section has been added. Various editor move the images as they like, all in the name of it looking good for the FA, and I have long ago given up on trying to interfere. I will expand the lead now, but I don't know what you mean by irrelevant lists of names. All names cited are referenced, are were mentioned by the authors as being relevant to the subject. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 12:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I mean those names, many of which are redlinks, seem to be a blatant attempt to expand the article whilst adding nothing of value; the article wouldn't suffer if, at the very least, all of the redlinked names were removed. If not all the redlinks, then certainly narrowing down each list of names to two or three at the most. I take your point on the images. Skinny87 (talk) 14:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm sorry, but one and a half sentences is not a sufficient background for the subject. Skinny87 (talk) 14:48, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- What about the main templates directing the readers to the dedicated article? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:33, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- A background section has been added. Various editor move the images as they like, all in the name of it looking good for the FA, and I have long ago given up on trying to interfere. I will expand the lead now, but I don't know what you mean by irrelevant lists of names. All names cited are referenced, are were mentioned by the authors as being relevant to the subject. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 12:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Interesting and comprehensive article, though prose could do with a polish, moving some "the"s around in the usual way. Near the end "Over the years, nearly three-quarters of the Polish people have emphasized the importance of World War II to the Polish national identity" does not seem precisely supported by the ref, and should be rephrased. The red-links seem inevitable in an article on such a subject; no doubt Piotrus will create articles for many in due course. All the images are on the right, which is discouraged, and Der Klabautermann and the Andrzej Wróblewski at the end face out of the page. These and maybe Chopin should be moved to the left. Johnbod (talk) 08:49, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Cites and refs not even within a mile of being standardized. pick a style and stick with it.Ling.Nut (talk) 11:20, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- All books are now cited in Harvard style. What's the problem? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 11:51, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the reply. Please compare Raack to Sterling in the References section. Then also compare Raack to Moczydłowski in the Citations section. Different styles. Choose one style & stick with it, please. Ling.Nut (talk) 12:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Moczydłowski is a journal article. I will standardize books to Harvard, since indeed not all have dates. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:13, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Leaning oppose the background section seems completely useless and could be merged into the next section; a ton of redlinks of people that don't really look like will be getting an article anytime soon; half of the references are in Polish although for such a notable topic I bet there are reliable refs in English. Nergaal (talk) 22:00, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- One reviewer objects because there was no background, the next because there is... I love FACs :) The main templates direct editors to the main articles, what more background is needed? I am asking seriously; I am perhaps to familiar with the subject to understand what more is needed in the form of the introduction. Yes, many refs are in Polish since majority of the scholarship on the subject is Polish, as I wrote earlier I am unfamiliar with the very existence of any English (or otherwise...) works on the subject covered that are not already cited. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:32, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- You need to provide a decent summary of the linked article. A couple of sentences really doesn't cut it. --Malleus Fatuorum 03:55, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- All right, I hope the current one is satisfactory? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 12:01, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll try and knock out some of these red links by at least stubbing some of them (the names I recognize) with translations from Polish wiki. Since this is a "amongst them" list how about just including those with already existing articles and putting the full list in a footnote (so that future articles can be written on them)? Or would that be also too messy?radek (talk) 03:49, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Piotrus, I don't think Nergaal objected because the background section was there, just that it wasn't detailed enough. As for the footnote idea for the long lists of authors etc, that's an excellent idea. Skinny87 (talk) 07:28, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Roger that; is the expanded background better now? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 14:57, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Piotrus, I don't think Nergaal objected because the background section was there, just that it wasn't detailed enough. As for the footnote idea for the long lists of authors etc, that's an excellent idea. Skinny87 (talk) 07:28, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments -
Current ref 115 (Krzysztof Stoliński) the first link deadlinks
- Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:11, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- That's why I've added a mirror link.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 07:47, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- If you expect the first link to come back sometime, that's fine. But if it's been dead a while, it's probably best to remove the link that's dead. Ealdgyth - Talk 11:58, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I am willing to give it a try, since I am not sure when it died. If it is still dead in a few months, sayonara :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 14:57, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- If you expect the first link to come back sometime, that's fine. But if it's been dead a while, it's probably best to remove the link that's dead. Ealdgyth - Talk 11:58, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- That's why I've added a mirror link.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 07:47, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. This is a very well researched article on an important topic, and one of the better articles on Wikipedia. I am confident that any stylistic concerns will be satisfactorily resolved. Nihil novi (talk) 04:52, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Look, half the cites are Harvard and the other half MLA. You want me to simply fix them for you, to save time here...? Ling.Nut (talk) 15:00, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- If you could, I'd be grateful. I will admit that tidying up refs is for me more difficult than writing the article :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:43, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Ling.Nut, I am very thankful for your help, but I see that you have removed all links to Google Print. Those links were very useful; why were they removed? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:32, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
-
- Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_candidates#links_to_Google_Books, I presume. I'll comment there shortly. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 12:19, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Since we have agreed that Google Book links are acceptable, I am waiting for you to restrore the links you've removed. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 06:39, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment
- The article says nothing about German persecution of the Catholic Church in Poland. There were over 2000 priests killed there just for being Catholic priests and even more were sent to concentration camps. John Paul II was almost murdered for holding Mass at an outside altar where troops surrounded him and the congregation. The Catholic Church is a very large part of Polish culture that needs to be included in this article to meet comprehensive criteria of FA.
- To be helpful, I offer you this source and quote from a respected non-Catholic historian:Owen Chadwick's A History of Christianity page 254-255 states: "When the Second World War began and the Germans conquered the Catholic country of Poland, the Nazis shot many Polish priests and a few bishops. Perhaps this was more because these clergy were leaders of the people than because they were ministers of religion. Yet the religious element was there, and many Poles were true martyrs: six bishops, 1926 priests, 580 monks, 289 nuns and many more went into concentration camps. Only Stalin committed a worse persecution of a Christian community. It would be known in history as the Martyrdom of Poland if it were not overshadowed by a worse crime. The Nazi onslaught, combined almost at the same time with Stalin's murders of church people, caused a revival of respect for religion in the West - for a decade or two. If these massacres happened when Europe started to repudiate Christianity, the answer must, at least in part, be to return to all that was best in the moral traditions of Christendom. An attack on human rights could be condemned only if human rights had a place in the scheme of the universe; that is, only if therer existed a religious apprehension of humanity and its place in the world." NancyHeise talk 17:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- This is an interesting point. I am aware of works on this subject (but thank you for the quote), but the current article didn't emphasize it (although note for example statistics like "During the war, Poland lost... 18% to 28% of its clergy"). I think you are right and German Nazi persecution of the Roman Catholic Church in Poland deserves a better mention; I'll shorty add a dedicated para. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:10, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Update: done.
I will also add a note to the Soviet section on similar measures (source) when I am less tired :)Done. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:57, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]- It is better now but I still think there should be some mention of the fact that a large number of priests, monks and nuns were sent to concentration camps as well as being exterminated. Some people think the concentration camps held just Jewish people when in reality, a large number of homosexuals, Christians and other "undesirables" were in the mix. Poland contributed a lot of those "undesirables" to German concentration camps. I see where your article talks about the extermination but not the deportation to these camps and I think at least a sentence or two should suffice. NancyHeise talk 20:29, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, to help here is a quote from John Vidmar's The Catholic Church Throughout the Ages page 329 quote: "Of 10,000 priests in Poland, 3700 were imprisoned, and 2700 were executed." The author provides a note after this sentence that states "Also in Poland, 1200 nuns were imprisoned, 3800 displaced, 350 executed." I don't expect you to include all the numbers of each group but your article does not make distinction between execution and imprisonment as these scholarly sources do. NancyHeise talk 20:44, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The article already mentions that members of Polish intelligentsia have been sent to the concentration camps; I've added priests to the list of specific groups in the para preceeding the one that I've added. You are welcome to use the refs you've found to expand this para. I think that we need a place on Wikipedia that would include those numbers, you may want to take a look at Pope Pius XII and Poland, Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles and Roman Catholic Church in Poland (we also need histry of the Roman Catholic Church in Poland). I am wondering if there is a good place in the article to at least link to the article on Pope Pius XII and Poland? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 07:32, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, to help here is a quote from John Vidmar's The Catholic Church Throughout the Ages page 329 quote: "Of 10,000 priests in Poland, 3700 were imprisoned, and 2700 were executed." The author provides a note after this sentence that states "Also in Poland, 1200 nuns were imprisoned, 3800 displaced, 350 executed." I don't expect you to include all the numbers of each group but your article does not make distinction between execution and imprisonment as these scholarly sources do. NancyHeise talk 20:44, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It is better now but I still think there should be some mention of the fact that a large number of priests, monks and nuns were sent to concentration camps as well as being exterminated. Some people think the concentration camps held just Jewish people when in reality, a large number of homosexuals, Christians and other "undesirables" were in the mix. Poland contributed a lot of those "undesirables" to German concentration camps. I see where your article talks about the extermination but not the deportation to these camps and I think at least a sentence or two should suffice. NancyHeise talk 20:29, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Update: done.
- This is an interesting point. I am aware of works on this subject (but thank you for the quote), but the current article didn't emphasize it (although note for example statistics like "During the war, Poland lost... 18% to 28% of its clergy"). I think you are right and German Nazi persecution of the Roman Catholic Church in Poland deserves a better mention; I'll shorty add a dedicated para. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:10, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose due to abundant use of dubious sources e.g.:
- sources published in Communist Poland, such as Madajczyk, 1970 (used to source numerous statements)
- a pamphlet published by the Polish "Ministry of Information" in 1945 (used to source numerous statements)
no publishing date given for "Czocher, Anna, "Jawne polskie życie kulturalne w okupowanym Krakowie 1939–1945 w świetle wspomnień " (used to source numerous statements)(meanwhile added)- website article by Ewa Bukowska - not fact-checked/peer-reviewed, not written by historians/scholars (used to source numerous statements)
- website http://www.warsawuprising.com/timeline.htm - not fact-checked/peer-reviewed, not written by historians/scholars (used to source numerous statements)
- A FA (or any other article) should not rely on that kind of sources to back up "facts". Skäpperöd (talk) 08:07, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm very, very interested in the response to this question. Have we evidence that the sources are not reliable/NPOV/high quality? Ling.Nut (talk) 09:01, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The listed websites may qualify as a WP:SPS, but not as a WP:RS in sensu stricto. The sources published during the Communist era should be treated along that line, too: The Communist regime in Poland was partially based on an anti-German agenda and ruled Poland in a totalitarian manner - no free press, no independent research, censorship etc pp. More complex related discussions concerning this kind of sources are here (general reliability discussion at RS/N), here (article-specific RfC), and here (TfD discussion). Consensus so far has not been reached, most editors argue to not discard those sources at sight, but to use them with great care eg for describing historiographic perspectives. WP:RS says scholary sources should be "published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses" - I do not think a Communist era book qualifies for that, neither does the 1945 source of the Polish "information" ministry. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:27, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- No. The consensus on RS is and was that communist-era sources are generally reliable, but should be treated carefully, particularly if they touch upon an area of known bias. If in doubt whether a particular fact is reliable, this fact should be discussed, and if possible, sourced with non-communist era works. If a particular publication or an author is in doubt, critical reviews need to be presented before the book or an author are deemed unreliable. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 08:53, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm very, very interested in the response to this question. Have we evidence that the sources are not reliable/NPOV/high quality? Ling.Nut (talk) 09:01, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Skapperod, your crusade against Polish sources is getting tiresome. Reliability of sources from Polish communist times have been discussed ad nauseum, including at WP:RSN (Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Reliability_of_sources_published_in_Communist_Poland), at Talk:Polish_areas_annexed_by_Nazi_Germany#Sources_published_during_the_Communist_era and at Template talk:Communist era sources (editors may also be interested in the ongoing tfd). In all of those discussions the consensus was against you. Polish sources are reliable, and as was explained to you several times, Madajczyk's is considered the most exhaustive review of Nazi's treatment of Polish society and culture, and is still widely cited by post-communist Polish historiography, and not only Polish: here's a list of ~50 English language books published after 1989 that cite him: [18].
- Data has been added to Czocher ref. Bukowska was discussed before, and the publisher (London Branch of the Polish Home Army Ex-Servicemen Association) is reliable. Ditto for http://www.warsawuprising.com is run by the Project InPosterum. In any case, I don't think any controversial statements are being sourced from those works, anyway. If you think they are used as a source for some controversial material, let me know and I'll try to provide a better ref. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 12:19, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- There is no "crusade against Polish sources". This is about how Communist-era sources are used, and I don't know why you think "consensus was against me". I encourage every reviewer to read through the links Piotrus and me gave above to get a picture of how editors want to treat these sources.
- Maybe Piotrus can provide a link to the Bukowska discussion - if there is evidence that the site is not to be treated as a WP:SPS I will strike it from the list, too. If "Project imposterum" is a "reputable peer-reviewed source" this should be outlined in the ref and I strike it from the list, too.
- Wikipedia has clear guidelines on what sources are reliable for. These should be met in every article, and it is unthinkable for me to have an article pass GA and FA review just because it's MOSsy while statements are referenced with sources that per wiki's core guidelines are not supposed to source these statements. If everything sourced to the Communist-era sources is unproblematic and widely recognized as an uncontroversial factum, then it should be no problem to find a source not published in a totalitarian regime. Same goes for the websites. I don't argue about the content itself, but about the way it is sourced. Skäpperöd (talk) 13:34, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It would be convinient for some to eliminate all work of Polish historiography, yet this is not how we deal with it. I've written an extensive article on Soviet historiography, which is much more problematic then Polish, but even I wouldn't say that Soviet history sources should be discarded as a rule (and yes, consensus upon consensus of editors at RS/V and so on have stated the very same thing). If you have issues with content, we can look at it. Polish sources are reliable, unless proven otherwise (look at Talk:Mikhail Meltyukhov to see how one can disprove authors: hint - find reviews critical of their works or research in general). EOT, as far as I am concerned. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- "eliminate all work of Polish historiography" - that is not what I said, as you well know. Careful use and attribution to works co-published by the Communist censors. That's what I am saying. Skäpperöd (talk) 05:36, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Nobody will disagree with you on principle. But what does this have to do with this article? The works are properly attributed (cited), in most cases the authors are notable enough to have articles about them, further helping the user to learn about the source (ex. by reading Czesław Madajczyk bio). Are you saying that they have not been carefully used? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 09:29, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- "eliminate all work of Polish historiography" - that is not what I said, as you well know. Careful use and attribution to works co-published by the Communist censors. That's what I am saying. Skäpperöd (talk) 05:36, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It would be convinient for some to eliminate all work of Polish historiography, yet this is not how we deal with it. I've written an extensive article on Soviet historiography, which is much more problematic then Polish, but even I wouldn't say that Soviet history sources should be discarded as a rule (and yes, consensus upon consensus of editors at RS/V and so on have stated the very same thing). If you have issues with content, we can look at it. Polish sources are reliable, unless proven otherwise (look at Talk:Mikhail Meltyukhov to see how one can disprove authors: hint - find reviews critical of their works or research in general). EOT, as far as I am concerned. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We must avoid broad-brush condemnations of scholarship, based on when it was published. A lot of excellent work was published in Poland before 1989, some of it by authors who began their careers well before World War II and who had little or no sympathy for communism. Some of this scholarship indeed contributed to the sociopolitical transformations that followed after 1989. Nihil novi (talk) 14:23, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Skapperod, this has been discussed on at least three occasions already. And each time the general consensus is that while in GENERAL Communist-era sources must be used with caution, Madajczyk in PARTICULAR is a reliable source. In addition to Piotrus' list of around 50 English language sources which cite him and use him and consider him reliable, here's a very incomplete list of links to academic peer reviewed works which also cite him, available online: [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24], [25], [26]. And that's just from a cursory examination. Additionally there's many many Polish post-1990 works which cite him as well. While I understand your concerns about Communist era sources in general, in this particular instance - Madajczyk - there is pretty overwhelming evidence that he should be considered reliable. So you should probably strike him from that list as well unless you're going to take the (anti-consensus) position that any Communist era source, even when considered reliable by Western academics, is always and everywhere unreliable.radek (talk) 22:36, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- If you have the statements sourced to Madajczyk cited in other works use those as supplement cite. The problem with the booksearch Piotrus performed is that the returned hits were mostly random and unrelated mentions of the name or date and not the actual cites you provided. The problem with the cites you provided is in turn that not the statements made in the article are cited. Madajczyk was a member of the ruling Communist party. In Madajczyk's favour it must be ammended that membership in the Communist party was semi-obligatory to everyone aiming at a successful career and does not necessarily mean that the member supported everything the Communists said and did. Yet no matter how decent a person was - and in favour of the scholars let's assume they were the most decent persons - there was no way of circumventing the censors' guidelines. Skäpperöd (talk) 05:32, 29 May 2009 (UTC)Skäpperöd (talk) 05:56, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- You are obviously asking for something well and beyond the usual standard, and, as you well know, pretty much impossible. To take a work in a foreign language and then find the a corresponding sentence in a English language work would involve a prohibitive amount of time and effort. It is hard to avoid a suspicion that you are just trying to throw up insurmountable roadblocks here. The issue is Madajczyk as a source and whether or not he is considered a reliable source by a) Western academics and b) the consensus of Wikipedia editors as discussed on RS board and other places. The answer on both these counts is "Yes - reliable". I don't see why if Madajczyk is treated as a reliable source by numerous non-communist writers (as shown generally by Piotrus and in the specifically enumerated instances by me) Wikipedia should have a problem with him. This also seems like something along the lines of a POV fork - trying to restart a discussion on this topic after you've failed to get your way in the three previous discussions.radek (talk) 06:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In regard to Bukowska - website article by Ewa Bukowska - not fact-checked/peer-reviewed, not written by historians/scholars (used to source numerous statements): Actually, the website is written by many or at least some historians and scholars, for example Prof. Garlinski, [27], Norman Davies, MRD Foot [28] (it's the Oxford Companion to WWII!) [29], Kondracki [30] ... and others, which you can/could've checked yourself. As to Bukowska herself (her bio's not up yet on the site) she is one of the Polish teachers that the article discusses and has certainly been published on the subject in academic work, for example, here: [31] or here: [32]. Additionally this is a bit of making a mountain out of a mole hill since out of the four times that Bukowska is used as a source in the article, three of those times are backed up by other, additional sources and I don't believe any of the statements are controversial.radek (talk) 22:48, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Just because the website hosts articles of notable scholars does not mean that everything else the website hosts becomes automatically a reliable source other than per WP:SPS. Skäpperöd (talk) 05:47, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It takes a good bit of bad faith to reach such a conclusion. I could maybe see it if it was like one historian and a dozen unknown writers but here we have basically a star studded cast. I've also provided other information about Bukowska which further supports her reliability.radek (talk) 06:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Likewise, website http://www.warsawuprising.com/timeline.htm - not fact-checked/peer-reviewed, not written by historians/scholars (used to source numerous statements) - actually, the website, whose aim is to promote knowledge of the Uprising, was constructed with considerable input from notable historians and archivists: [33].radek (talk) 22:56, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- While scholary input is mentioned in the "Thank you"-section, this input is not identifiable in the text, and from the very "Thank you"-section it is obvious that the articles are neither written by these scholars, nor a sole rewrite of their work. The website is to be used as a WP:SPS only. Skäpperöd (talk) 05:47, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Many academic, reliable, sources that we cite in many FAs only have a general bibliography without the input of each individual work being readily identifiable in the text. This is no different as the acknowledgment is essentially a form of a bibliography.radek (talk) 06:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And let's not forget my point, so far unanswered by Skäpperöd: are any of those sources used as a sole source for controversial/fringe/extreme claims? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 09:29, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- About Madajczyk and assesment of his work in modern western historiography:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Polish_areas_annexed_by_Nazi_Germany#About_Madajczyk "It is with great sadness that we have learned of the death of Professor Czeslaw Madaiczyk, Chairman of the Polish Committee for the History of World War I and II, who died on 15 February 2008. Czeslaw Madajczyk was an eminent historian, whose scholarly work on 20th Century Polish and European History has been widely acknowledged and respected. His important studies on Nazi occupation of Europe after 1938, and in particular on Hitler’s rule of Poland have greatly enhanced our understanding of the often complicated and obscured processes of German occupation policies as well as of the differing experiences of ordinary peoples under Fascist dictatorship and oppression. These and some of his other books, notably on cultural life in Nazi occupied Europe, on the “Generalplan Ost” and other German war-time plans for Eastern Europe as well as on the Soviet massacre at Katyn, have become milestones of the historiography of the Second World War. He was a co-founder and for more than two decades also the first editor of the distinguished Polish quarterly “Dzieje Najnowsze” (Recent History). Between 1971 and 1983 Professor Madajczyk led the Institute of History of the Polish Academy of Sciences. Besides he was Vice-President of the Polish Committee of Historical Sciences (1971-1985) and later became one of the Vice-Presidents of the International Committee for the History of the Second World War (1980–1995). In these capacities Czeslaw Madajczyk was an ardent supporter of international scholarly cooperation and exchanges, even at times when relations between historians on both sides of the iron curtain were still threatened or questioned by political conditions and developments. The death of Czeslaw Madajczyk is a grave loss for the international community of World War II historians. Gerhard Hirschfeld President of the International Committee for the History of the Second World War" http://www.ihtp.cnrs.fr/cih2gm/
--Molobo (talk) 19:01, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. The article is comprehensive and quite sufficiently detailed; providing excellent background information for further research, but please keep in mind also that this is not a book and cannot be treated as such with further requests for covering everything. For example, the pivotal role of the Catholic Church in Poland is undeniable, but the church is not a “cultural” institution in the usual sense – it is a “religious” institution often with considerable holdings of historic art and archives. By the same token, I would suggest to please consider trimming the extensive list of obscure writers whose contribution to Polish culture is (and will always remain) negligible, such as the petty communist ideologues without sister articles in Wikipedia. Only the names of instrumental contributors to Polish culture can be justified by the limited size and scope of this 80 KB article, as per above. --Poeticbent talk 16:10, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Speaking to the polish sources issue above, I don't see a problem with using those sources if they are supplemented with others. This article does that. I think the inclusion of some communist era Polish sources are evidence of the article's attempt at comprehensiveness. If these were the only sources used, I might think they were evidence of the article's bias but this is not the case. NancyHeise talk 17:46, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- If each of these references was supplemented, I would not argue. But they are not. Eg, the first reference to Madajczyk (1970) is what is now citenote [7], which is used nine times. Of the nine statements sourced to [7], only two are backed up by another one. Skäpperöd (talk) 17:53, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll take a look. NancyHeise talk 17:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- So? Is anything cited with those sources controversial? As I've explained above, Madajczyk is considered both reliable and an expert on the subject. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- If each of these references was supplemented, I would not argue. But they are not. Eg, the first reference to Madajczyk (1970) is what is now citenote [7], which is used nine times. Of the nine statements sourced to [7], only two are backed up by another one. Skäpperöd (talk) 17:53, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Speaking to the polish sources issue above, I don't see a problem with using those sources if they are supplemented with others. This article does that. I think the inclusion of some communist era Polish sources are evidence of the article's attempt at comprehensiveness. If these were the only sources used, I might think they were evidence of the article's bias but this is not the case. NancyHeise talk 17:46, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- More comments from Nancy : This sentence "The policy of supporting propaganda cultural activities in Polish language clashed with the Russification policy which argued for phasing out the Polish language. While Polish language was removed from schools[67] and even Polish street signs disappeared,[76] the pro-Polish language policy was spurred before the bogus elections of 26 October 1939,[76] and then in late spring 1940, after Hitler's armies had defeated France and the Soviet Union was left alone facing the Third Reich, and Stalin concluded that Poles could be useful in a confrontation with the Nazis." is an example of the problem I have with the article's prose.
- I think the article content is fascinating and I want to support it for FA but I can not because it needs a very thorough effort to correct the prose. Many sentences are missing words such as "the" and are a little bit too long. It sounds as if the article's creator speaks English as a second language and I am very impressed with the article. I only speak one language, English and have tried to learn both Spanish and French for many years with little results to show so bilingual people are an amazement to me. I will try to help go through the article to clean it up but it would be nice if someone could help me too. Thanks, NancyHeise talk 17:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- At this count, the article has been copyedited by ~10 native speakers. Any further help is of course welcome, but I would lie if I said that the copyediting process is very well designed. That said, I of course agree that English Wikipedia article should be written in best English prose. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Piotrus, can you do something to break up the sentence I pointed out above? I don't want to touch it without going to the source and first reading what the scholar is trying to convey. I could not do this because the source is in Polish. The English supplementary source is listed on Google Books but the pages cited in the article are not part of the preview available on Google Books. The sentence should really be broken down into two or three separate sentences. NancyHeise talk 00:07, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll do what I can.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 09:30, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Piotrus, can you do something to break up the sentence I pointed out above? I don't want to touch it without going to the source and first reading what the scholar is trying to convey. I could not do this because the source is in Polish. The English supplementary source is listed on Google Books but the pages cited in the article are not part of the preview available on Google Books. The sentence should really be broken down into two or three separate sentences. NancyHeise talk 00:07, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- At this count, the article has been copyedited by ~10 native speakers. Any further help is of course welcome, but I would lie if I said that the copyediting process is very well designed. That said, I of course agree that English Wikipedia article should be written in best English prose. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Neutral I regret that I can not support the article right now. In addition to prose, I agree with Skäpperöd that the article makes excessive use of Polish language sources. Use of these sources makes it difficult for someone like me to check content enough to make sure the article is free of plagiarism and accurately reflects the meaning expressed by the sources supporting the sentences. While many English language sources are used to compliment the Polish sources. There are large stretches of article content where no English language companion source exists to support the Polish language sources. If I were a more intelligent person who could speak Polish and English, like the article's nominator, I might be in a position to support. Perhaps there exists on Wikipedia a bilingual editor like this who could come examine the article and offer a more sound opinion. NancyHeise talk 18:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- "agree with Skäpperöd that the article makes excessive use of Polish language sources" - seems like I have not made myself clear: I do not object Polish language sources. I object to the unconditional use of sources published during the the Communist era. And the websites which as WP:SPS do not qualify to back up anything other than statements about themselves. Regards Skäpperöd (talk) 18:54, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The use is quite conditional, but your critique is not. You have so far not criticized any part of the cited content, you just criticize the sources in general, again and again. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:31, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Please take a look at the previous FAC, where I linked my lenghty explanation on the sources used. Short version: much of the relevant scholarship is available only in Polish, since (surprise!) Polish scholars are more interested in the issue then non-Polish ones. Please also note that so far three bilingual (English-Polish) editors have commented here (Radeksz, Nihil novi and Poeticbent), all of them supportive of this article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree that much scholarship on this subject is probably in Polish. I do not object to the use of Polish sources or communist era Polish sources. I was just pointing out that I am not qualified to cast a support vote because the sources are in a language I do not speak. I hope the FAC directors assistants will place proper weight on the votes of those bilingual editors. The article needs some polish on the prose before it can go FA however. NancyHeise talk 21:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, you are qualified to vote - you don't have to research of all sources to vote, I don't recall seeing this in any FAC procedures :) Also, please note Wikipedia:V#Non-English_sources (they are allowed). Btw, could you help with the prose polish? That's something that I cannot do myself. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 09:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree that much scholarship on this subject is probably in Polish. I do not object to the use of Polish sources or communist era Polish sources. I was just pointing out that I am not qualified to cast a support vote because the sources are in a language I do not speak. I hope the FAC directors assistants will place proper weight on the votes of those bilingual editors. The article needs some polish on the prose before it can go FA however. NancyHeise talk 21:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Very few of the users of Wikipedia can read Polish, even the Polish readers would have great difficulty to obtain and verify the sources in this article. To improve the article English language sources that can be obtained in libraries and sold on the internet should support those out of print Polish sources now used. Keep them, but include English language sources also.--Woogie10w (talk) 00:31, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- "agree with Skäpperöd that the article makes excessive use of Polish language sources" - seems like I have not made myself clear: I do not object Polish language sources. I object to the unconditional use of sources published during the the Communist era. And the websites which as WP:SPS do not qualify to back up anything other than statements about themselves. Regards Skäpperöd (talk) 18:54, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The following template may be useful in this case,
- Vielen dank, Skapperod for pointing out the need to improve this article with verifiable sources--Woogie10w (talk) 13:38, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I am pretty sure that Polish sources cover the discussed issues in more detail than English, hence per Wikipedia:V#Non-English_sources they are acceptable. Of course, if you can verify various facts from Polish sources with English, by all means, please do so. As I've explained above, I was paying more attention to this article being comprehensive than I cared about what language sources I use. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 13:53, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- My obvious intent is to forgo the nuclear option that would tag the article as tainted red propaganda, a precision guided strike with reliable English language sources is all that is needed.--Woogie10w (talk) 14:02, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Can you suggest some? Nihil novi (talk) 14:16, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Polish Society Under German Occupation by Jan Gross would provide the foundation, Madajczyk would fill in the fine point details--Woogie10w (talk) 14:37, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Piotrus, here's a good English language source [34] it is published by this [35] publishing house that was founded by a Polish man whose specialty is publishing English translations of Polish and other foreign language books. I think it would be an improvement for the article to use more English language sources. It is a valuable article full of great information and you have done a tremendous job giving us this gift of Polish insight into your country's cultural trials in WWII. I would like to see this become FA but I can not support or do much with the prose if the sentences are cited to Polish sources. Can you spend a little bit of time to add English refs to the article and then give me a ping and I'll come help with prose? Please consider that English speaking news organizations and others often use Wikipedia for information but the information needs to be verifiable by them as well. If the article cites obscure Polish sources, it is doubtful that it would be a useful article to the population at large. NancyHeise talk 01:35, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll see what I can do. Are there any particular claims you'd like me to verify with English sources? Please note that Ling.Nut has removed all Google Book links, making the verification of anything much more difficut, I am now waiting for him to restore them before I'll start adding new refs. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 06:39, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Piotrus, here's a good English language source [34] it is published by this [35] publishing house that was founded by a Polish man whose specialty is publishing English translations of Polish and other foreign language books. I think it would be an improvement for the article to use more English language sources. It is a valuable article full of great information and you have done a tremendous job giving us this gift of Polish insight into your country's cultural trials in WWII. I would like to see this become FA but I can not support or do much with the prose if the sentences are cited to Polish sources. Can you spend a little bit of time to add English refs to the article and then give me a ping and I'll come help with prose? Please consider that English speaking news organizations and others often use Wikipedia for information but the information needs to be verifiable by them as well. If the article cites obscure Polish sources, it is doubtful that it would be a useful article to the population at large. NancyHeise talk 01:35, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Polish Society Under German Occupation by Jan Gross would provide the foundation, Madajczyk would fill in the fine point details--Woogie10w (talk) 14:37, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Can you suggest some? Nihil novi (talk) 14:16, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Vielen dank, Skapperod for pointing out the need to improve this article with verifiable sources--Woogie10w (talk) 13:38, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - I was holding off on an actual vote until a little bit of work to improve the article has been done. Now it has been copy edited a few more times by several different editors, a lot of the red links have been now created (about 25 or so), referencing style has been standardized and I hope the concern over the sources have been alleviated. No reason for this not to go ahead.radek (talk) 06:43, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Karanacs 16:40, 2 June 2009 [36].
Checkers speech
I am nominating this for featured article because... I believe it meets FA standards. It has passed GA, and had a peer review with only superficial problems found. I've added to the images by taking some myself, and I think it is ready to go.Wehwalt (talk) 06:53, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:12, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support: I passed the article at GA. I also contributed to the peer review, where I noted various improvements and made a few more suggestions. This is a well-writen, even gripping account of Nixon's travails in the early 1950s, and how he overcame them with the help of a little dawg...What a pity we haven't got Nixon to kick around any more. Brianboulton (talk) 17:39, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I also peer reviewed this and find it meets all the FAC criteria - well done, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 19:42, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for image concerns as follow:
- File:Nixon while in US Congress.jpg: this is likely not in public domain.[37][38] Suggestions: I pretty doubt much that Britannica owns the copyright to this image (I am quite certain it is a public domain image, judging how the rest are attributed to AP and the lot), but we would need to find what would make it in public domain. Guardian claims this to be in public domain, but without a source on what kind of public domain this photo is... I can only suggest to crop from the NPS shots here (note: the photo by Robert S. Oakes is copyrighted).
- File:S000701.jpg: same issue as above. Suggestion: crop from this, in which he is slightly looking down, or this for his right profile (both NASA photos), or this (ARC ID: 200392), a photo by a NPS photographer.
File:Eisenhower 68-40-67.jpg: I am not certain over the status of this photo. http://nixon.archives.gov/virtuallibrary/gallery10.php says it is a public domain image, but the site later claims it may not be...[39] Eisenhower Library admits to hosting copyrighted images.[40][41] If they are taken on the 1952 campaign trail, the photos might not be taken by federal employees but by journalists or Eisenhower's own aides (are the latter federal employees)? Again we have this photo at Britannica that I doubt is theirs to copyright but...- Brought up for discussion at Commons:Commons talk:PD files#File:Eisenhower 68-40-67.jpg. Jappalang (talk) 07:35, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Other images are verifiably in the public domain or licensed. It perked my curiosity that the article did not feature the namesake. No Checkers. Undoubtably it was because he died before Nixon entered office, hence no Presidential shots to feature the dog. Note that pre- and post-Presidential images in the Nixon library are copyrighted.[42][43] This Nixon Library image is copyrighted by the Associated Press.[44] I would think the spaniel deserves a show here, but alas, no free images for him. Jappalang (talk) 06:42, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Ouch. That hurts. Well, I've changed the photos, and I think it is pretty clear the replacements are public domain. I have totally scrapped the first one, with the Checkers speech screencap, I don't really need it. Can you let people on Commons who may be in a better position than me to look into the Nixon shot? I've used it in other articles.
- No, there is no Checkers, because this is about the speech, not the dog. It is why I took out the photo of Checkers' headstone, which is unquestionably PD. I have seen a couple of shots of Checkers, one with Nixon sort of hugging the dog, the other the Nixon family walking with Checkers on the beach, but I do not feel I can establish a fair use rationale, as this is not a biography, so to speak, of the dog.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:51, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, I know fair use for Checkers cannot be reasonably estalished for this article (the main focus is on the speech). I am bringing up the Eisenhower-Nixon photo up for discussion at Commons:PD files as a preliminary step. Jappalang (talk) 07:32, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I really meant the Nixon in Congress one. The thing is, most of us are not image hawks. We rely in good faith on Commons, assuming they have their act together. I took two photos for this article, in Cleveland and Wheeling (both short detours from my route, no biggie), but I would be hard pressed to make up for the loss of a historic photograph.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:38, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, I know fair use for Checkers cannot be reasonably estalished for this article (the main focus is on the speech). I am bringing up the Eisenhower-Nixon photo up for discussion at Commons:PD files as a preliminary step. Jappalang (talk) 07:32, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
- The NYT said there was an ongoing criminal investigation? Do you have the actual NYT clippings? Can you get them? I want to see more details about this. Whether true or false, it is a very significant aspect.
- Named refs could be used for: Morris 1990 pp. 776–78, p. 852, p. 775, p. 763. Ling.Nut (talk) 04:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I have access through the NY Times archives. Basically, there was a statute that said that a federal employee can't accept outside compensation. The Gibson Dunn report said that a senator is not a Federal employee and also that Nixon's reimbursement was not outside compensation, and dug up an attorney general opinion from the Harding (!) Administration saying that members of congress can accept reimbursement for their expenses. But I can't forward or put online the actual pdfs. I'll check the refs and see if there are dups and make any necessary modifications.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:56, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- No need to check the refs; I just did. ;-) So are you saying that the NYT was explicitly referring to the Gibson Dunn research as "a criminal investigation"? Or were they say there was anther investigation going on? Ling.Nut (talk) 05:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. No, the Gibson Dunn report was not issued until Sept 23, the day of the speech. That morning, the Times had reported the Justice Department was looking into the Fund issue based on former 18 USC 1914. That section, now codified here has since been modified to make it screamingly clear it doesn't apply to members of Congress or their staff. All this was quietly dropped, I assume, after the tidal wave of support for Nixon, since I can't find references talking about it after the 23rd.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- So was the Justice Department in fact looking into it? Any other confirmation of this? And.. how formal or informal was this "looking into it"? And how formal or informal did the NYT article make it seem? Ling.Nut (talk) 05:39, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It's hard to say. Times relied on unnamed sources. They also reported, and I found this interesting but not quite worthy of inclusion in the article, that the Democrats may have known about the Fund as far back as July, and were hanging on to it for the right moment. However, since the source is unnamed and it's all a bit ex post facto, I decided not to include that. None of Nixon's biographers mention the criminal matter. So I'd say they were looking at it, but that didn't mean that there was any serious intent that it go anywhere. Besides, half of Congress had them, and the statute was very murky in its phrasing.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:27, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- So was the Justice Department in fact looking into it? Any other confirmation of this? And.. how formal or informal was this "looking into it"? And how formal or informal did the NYT article make it seem? Ling.Nut (talk) 05:39, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I see that the image that Jappalang referred to is now up for deletion. I will remove it from the article pending the outcome.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:34, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It seems to me that the image would be OK as the article's only fair use image (if it turns out that it is not free). Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:15, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, would I have to reupload it? The Wheeling event is an important event in this article, I'd really like to have that image.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:36, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I assume it could be uploaded on Wikipedia (not Commons) with a Fair Use rationale. If I recall correctly, an earlier version of the photo of the CCC worker statue in Leonard Harrison State Park started out on Commons, then had to be deleted there as the artwork is copyrighted, so we uploaded it to Wikipedia (to complicate matters, the current photo is a new version uploaded later and the old one was deleted as it was fair use only). Just to be very clear, I support the use of the Eisenhower-Nixon photo as fair use in this article. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:47, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, I've restored it to the article for the time being, and we'll see what happens with the deletion. I've saved a copy on my computer too. I foresee a problem if I reupload it, will the fact it comes from the Eisenhower Library be sufficient as a source? After all, we have no idea who took it ...--Wehwalt (talk) 20:54, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think as long as there is a clear source for where you got it and they seem reputable, it is OK, even if the author of the image is unknown. See this image of Leonard Harrison, also from Leonard Harrison State Park. It was in when the article passed FAC - all we know is who it is and where we got it, not when it was taken or by whom. I also assume Jappalang will correct me if I make a mistake here (with thanks in advance), Ruhrfisch ><>°° 21:39, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Can I change the pd/commons rationale on the copy that is on Wikipedia to a fair use rationale, and will that copy then survive the (in my view, inevitable) deletion of this image at Commons? I don't see any way this is a pd image. There's no way there was a Federal employee at the Wheeling rally taking photos within the scope of his employment. No way.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:04, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I have uploaded lots of Files here (on WP) for use in DYK that were also already on Commons. There is a warning when you upload them that the file is a duplicate (if the name is the same). Deletion of a file on Wikipedia or on Commons is only there, not both places. The descriptions are also independent (i.e. DYK files on WP have {{C-uploaded}} which is not a Commons template). If you want, I suppose the file name on WP could be different too (as long as it is a duplicate file, I think there will still be a notice). Commons can not host fair use images, but WP can. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 11:38, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Can I change the pd/commons rationale on the copy that is on Wikipedia to a fair use rationale, and will that copy then survive the (in my view, inevitable) deletion of this image at Commons? I don't see any way this is a pd image. There's no way there was a Federal employee at the Wheeling rally taking photos within the scope of his employment. No way.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:04, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think as long as there is a clear source for where you got it and they seem reputable, it is OK, even if the author of the image is unknown. See this image of Leonard Harrison, also from Leonard Harrison State Park. It was in when the article passed FAC - all we know is who it is and where we got it, not when it was taken or by whom. I also assume Jappalang will correct me if I make a mistake here (with thanks in advance), Ruhrfisch ><>°° 21:39, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, I've restored it to the article for the time being, and we'll see what happens with the deletion. I've saved a copy on my computer too. I foresee a problem if I reupload it, will the fact it comes from the Eisenhower Library be sufficient as a source? After all, we have no idea who took it ...--Wehwalt (talk) 20:54, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I assume it could be uploaded on Wikipedia (not Commons) with a Fair Use rationale. If I recall correctly, an earlier version of the photo of the CCC worker statue in Leonard Harrison State Park started out on Commons, then had to be deleted there as the artwork is copyrighted, so we uploaded it to Wikipedia (to complicate matters, the current photo is a new version uploaded later and the old one was deleted as it was fair use only). Just to be very clear, I support the use of the Eisenhower-Nixon photo as fair use in this article. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:47, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, would I have to reupload it? The Wheeling event is an important event in this article, I'd really like to have that image.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:36, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(outdent) I didn't upload it, I just undeleted it since it was previously a WP image before being moved to commons. I added an appropriate template and a hopefully appropriate fair use rationale. That should solve the problem, I think.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:50, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments It's pretty good, but I found stuff to do. Please check it over again for MoS issues relating to punctuation at the end of quotations, and for that pesky "with" connector (see example at the bottom below).Some issues:- "The Checkers speech was an early example of a politician using television to appeal directly to the electorate, but has often been mocked or denigrated." This seems to come from left field. In the robust lead, this sentence is the only suggestion that the speech was ill-received by anyone. The speech caused an outpouring of support, but it was mocked and denigrated?
- "As Smith wrote one potential contributor, the donated money was to be used for:" Odd. Wrote to the contributor? This is another left field fly because we've just read about Nixon's expense account and suddenly we're reading about Smith again. Suggest more context: "As Smith wrote to one potential contributor, money donated to the Fund was to be used for:"
- Why in that blockquote is there a stray non-breaking space in the middle of one set of ellipses?
- "Contributors were only drawn from Nixon's early supporters" Move the "only" further right to get the intended meaning.
- "and an engraving bill was unpaid pending a hoped-for contribution of $500." What does this mean? They ran out of money and couldn't pay the bill?
- "Warren failed in his attempt to gain the nomination, and his supporters were embittered by what they saw as political opportunism on the part of Nixon, both in accepting the vice-presidential nomination and (according to the Warren supporters), in working behind the scenes for Eisenhower's nomination despite his pledge to support Warren." I don't know, something is missing here. An "and" after the comma? Or was something cut off?
- "The candidate had the train stopped, and responded that he had been told that if he continued on his political course, crooks and communists would smear him." I don't quite follow this. Nixon said this in response to someone asking about the Fund? It seems unrelated.
- "By this time, Nixon campaign headquarters was receiving a flood of telephone calls, calling on the senator to resign from the ticket." Can you revise to avoid the "calls calling"?
- "Denied any hard information as to what Nixon would say, rumors flew through the media." Dangling modifier. The "rumors" were not denied.
- "The senator alleged that Stevenson had minimized the threat of communism, and was thus unfit to be president." Seems like minimizing a threat would be a good thing. Do you mean "downplayed"?
- "With less than three minutes left to go in the allotted time" "Left" and "to go" are redundant.
- "Nixon skeptics joined in, with both Stassen and Dewey sending congratulatory telegrams." Revise to eliminate the noun plus -ing construction and the undesirable "with" connector. I've fixed a few of these already, but I'm getting tired. :)
- --Laser brain (talk) 20:10, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, it's all shiny now. Thanks for addressing my feedback so quickly. This was a really interesting read, if I do say so myself. --Laser brain (talk) 21:17, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: A strong article. I've been reading Rick Perlstein's recent Nixonland: The Rise of a President and the Fracturing of America, and this article provides much of the extra detail on the speech that I might have wanted. However, there does seem to be a significant aspect of the speech that is not currently covered. I'll simply quote from Perlstein. He's describing how exactly Nixon's speech prompted a favorable public reaction:
What delivered the telegrams were the stories. These, too, left plenty of room for dispute. "I worked my way through college," he said—he hadn't; "I guess I'm entitled to a couple of battle stars" from the war—he wasn't; his wife "was born on St. Patrick's Day"—she was born the day before St. Patrick's Day. (p. 39)
The article currently says Nixon "alluded to his work in college", without caveat; quotes him fibbing about his wife's birthday, without correction; and notes that Eisenhower told his wife "that Nixon was a completely honest man", again without caveat. (It does not cover Nixon's war claims.)
You'll note Perlstein's "too". Here's the referent:
The technical value of the financial accounting [Nixon offered] was highly debatable. It would be highly debated. His account of smears the press supposedly piled upon him during the Hiss case and after was even more so. This would be debated, too. (p. 39)
While the article currently covers the general media reaction, pro and con, there is no mention of specific debates concerning Nixon's accuracy and veracity.
Perlstein does not identify specific sources for the page from which I've quoted, but his main sources for the Checkers speech include the following: David Greenberg, Nixon's Shadow: The Shaping of His Character (pp. 31–35); Tom Wicker, One of Us: Richard Nixon and the American Dream (pp. 80–110); and Fawn Brodie, Richard Nixon: The Shaping of His Character (pp. 271–89).—DCGeist (talk) 06:30, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- That is what the final quote talks about; Nixon made himself seem "one of us". After all, that's why he chose that quote generally attributed to Lincoln. The quote will make that clear to anyone who hasn't had his face rubbed in it by carefully selected quotes which I include from the speech. I chose the quotes I did either to (a) make that point, which was the majore point of Nixon's speech, (b) because they're famous, (c) for plot purposes (the ones that were aimed at Eisenhower), (d) irony ("I'm not a quitter") (e) to dispose of a part of the speech that would be troublesome to summarize, or (f) multiples of the preceding. I read Perlstein in a bookstore and found him highly biased and prone to misstatements. I haven't read Wicker, but I've read Greenberg. Brodie's book is generally discredited, by the way.
- The thing is, the quote you mention is inaccurate. Nixon never offered an accounting. Eisenhower had Price Waterhouse trek out to the then-wilds of eastern L.A. county and do an accounting of Smith's records. And it came out clean. It was published in the NY Times, in full, on the 24th, by the way.
- There is a comment, if you hit "edit this page" about his birthday comment about his wife. But, it isn't very much of a whopper. Ever wonder why she's called "Pat" or "Patricia" Nixon when her name was Thelma? The Ryan family nicknamed her "Pat" because her birthday was so close to St. Patrick's Day. Putting in a comment there is full disclosure enough, and will save the article over the long haul from unneeded edits. The other two--well, Ambrose, Black, and Morris, Nixon's main biographers for this period, don't twig on the question of the battle stars or the work through college, and I'm unable to find any contemporary news account questioning either. Please remember that 1952 was an era when people were very sensitive to the idea of a man claiming war honors he hadn't earned, and Nixon's war record was public knowledge after three election campaigns.
- The other things you mention, his veracity/disclosure about the Fund, are discussed in the various newspaper quotes, and in the quote from Senator Anderson. I give the basics, the reader is free to examine the sources for more information. I tried to avoid both the "Nixon? He was a great guy, it was all the fault of everyone else, all the way" and "That rotten Nixon, he smeared Voorhis, he smeared Douglas, he hid behind his dog, all the way to Watergate ..." I think I did a pretty good job there.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:00, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Response: Since you seem to think nothing needs to be done, it appears I need to follow up (with a little research in a couple cases). On the specific points:
- College work record. Nixon said, "I worked my way through college." This appears to be a simple falsehood. Black (p. 23) indicates a bequest from Nixon's grandfather "effectively defray[ed] all the costs of higher learning in Whittier." You need to cast your net a bit more widely on this. If you still find no one but Perlstein addressing the issue, the text of the article stills need to be changed. The statement that Nixon "alluded to his work in college" is unsatisfactory given the facts.
- Pat's birthday. Your response is inadequate. As a fib, I agree Nixon's statement is of little significance; but as an objective misstatement of fact, it can't be left as is. Don't imagine that incorrect information in an article is properly handled with an advisory visible only via "edit this page." That's a special function the average reader does not and can not be expected to think about. If you choose to quote an objectively erroneous statement in the article, you must provide the correct information in the article. (In this case, I think it's fine if you want to do it in a footnote, rather than the main text.)
- Battle stars. Nixon did earn two battle stars, per a preponderance of sources. Perlstein appears to be wrong.
- Accuracy of the "accounting". Of course, no one's claiming that Nixon was a professional accountant. Perlstein's phrasing (without interpolation: "The technical value of the financial accounting that followed was highly debatable") does not make it absolutely clear whether he is referring to Nixon's rather detailed account of his personal financial affairs or to his more general account of the Fund's outlays, or both. In any event, he article currently contains no coverage of opinions about the accuracy and/or veracity of Nixon's account of these financial matters. Quoting a few general opinions about the speech, pro and con, is insufficient. You quote Anderson saying, "I wish he had talked about the 18,000 bucks." That doesn't go the question of accuracy/veracity. (And, of course, Nixon does offer an explanation of how the $18,000 was spent: "to finance items which are not official business but which are primarily political business.")
- Supposed press smears. Nixon said, "I remember in the dark days of the Hiss case some of the same columnists, some of the same radio commentators who are attacking me now and misrepresenting my position, were violently opposing me at the time I was after Alger Hiss." Again, the article currently contains no coverage of opinions about the accuracy of Nixon's version of his history with the press, a significant matter. Once again, quoting a few general opinions about the speech, pro and con, is insufficient.
- Even beyond these last two points, the Legacy section is still a distance from being comprehensive, and needs to be beefed up. There's a considerable amount of literature that analyzes the speech as a work of rhetoric--within its immediate historical context, within the arc of Nixon's career, and within the general context of American political rhetoric. That literature needs to be addressed. You might start with Garry Wills's Nixon Agonistes, and go from there.
- You have, indeed, done a "pretty good job" composing a balanced article. But the article's not done.—DCGeist (talk) 15:51, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment to DCGeist. Would you consider the possibility that deconstructing the speech further would be going into too much detail? The article is already pretty long, considering it's about one speech. Heck it's almost as long as Gettysburg Address. From my reading, the article appears balanced—it neither glorifies the speech nor casts it as a pack of lies by a political opportunist. I believe that close examination of the veracity of various parts of the speech may be out of scope for this article. We should leave it at telling the reader what he said, providing the context and background, and letting them do further research if they want to deep-dive. --Laser brain (talk) 16:03, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment The article already has two explanatory notes in references (current refs 51 and 57), so I think these issues could be addressed in a footnote or two (and agree that notes in the text itself are not needed). Instead of a hidden comment in the text, a ref footnote could be added after the Pat's a fighter sentence that was something like "Pat Nixon was born Thelma Catherine Ryan on March 16, 1912, and was called "Pat" by her family because her birth date was so close to St. Patrick's Day." (not great, but you get the idea). A similar note could be added after the college and military service sentence, at least mentioning Perlstein's book. Finally I think the author and name of the recent book on Lincoln's supposed quote should be given, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 16:42, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with both of you. However, on the case of the college, I would just leave that be. I did a little research myself. How do you define "work my way through college"? Every cent earned from the job? According to Morris, page 111, as a descendant of Franklin Milhous (his grandfather), he was entitled to draw from a fund left by Milhous to Whittier College for a full tuition scholarship ($250 a year). That still left fees and other expenses for a student living at home averaging $50 a year, in the Depression. I don't know who paid those fees, but Nixon certainly worked in the family grocery store through college (page 122, 139 for example). This was a political speech. It will stand analysis in some ways, and in those ways, mostly political, the article does so. However, like Laserbrain says, you can't analyze every word of it for truthfulness. Are we to analyze for truth his attacks on Stevenson, on Truman? You'd find that they contain as much truth as any political speech. And no more. The other things I will work on and have in this afternoon. Please feel free to alter what I do, never been a big footnote in text man, meself.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:48, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The new notes look fine to me, thanks. Having reread the discussion above, the whole Legacy section of the article and the pertinent parts on the speech itself, I do not see the need for a note on Nixon's work to pay for college, or especially on his military service. I also think the Legacy section as written seems sufficient, though I am not a Nixon expert by any means - this is an article on the speech and it seems to me the Legacy section (and the article as a whole) meet WP:WEIGHT and WP:NPOV and other criteria. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 21:14, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with both of you. However, on the case of the college, I would just leave that be. I did a little research myself. How do you define "work my way through college"? Every cent earned from the job? According to Morris, page 111, as a descendant of Franklin Milhous (his grandfather), he was entitled to draw from a fund left by Milhous to Whittier College for a full tuition scholarship ($250 a year). That still left fees and other expenses for a student living at home averaging $50 a year, in the Depression. I don't know who paid those fees, but Nixon certainly worked in the family grocery store through college (page 122, 139 for example). This was a political speech. It will stand analysis in some ways, and in those ways, mostly political, the article does so. However, like Laserbrain says, you can't analyze every word of it for truthfulness. Are we to analyze for truth his attacks on Stevenson, on Truman? You'd find that they contain as much truth as any political speech. And no more. The other things I will work on and have in this afternoon. Please feel free to alter what I do, never been a big footnote in text man, meself.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:48, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment The article already has two explanatory notes in references (current refs 51 and 57), so I think these issues could be addressed in a footnote or two (and agree that notes in the text itself are not needed). Instead of a hidden comment in the text, a ref footnote could be added after the Pat's a fighter sentence that was something like "Pat Nixon was born Thelma Catherine Ryan on March 16, 1912, and was called "Pat" by her family because her birth date was so close to St. Patrick's Day." (not great, but you get the idea). A similar note could be added after the college and military service sentence, at least mentioning Perlstein's book. Finally I think the author and name of the recent book on Lincoln's supposed quote should be given, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 16:42, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is a good article—a very good article—in terms of its description of the speech, but I believe it falls short of our comprehensiveness standard. Length comparisons to our Gettysburg Address article are beside the point—this is the FAC for the Checkers speech article, so let's focus on that. This is one of the most anaylzed speeches in American history, and I don't believe the article at present adequately reflects the analytical literature. For instance, I have agreed that as it pertains to his honesty, Nixon's fib about his wife's birthday falling on St. Patrick's Day is small beans. But why did Nixon bring it up at all? Just to make a point that no quitters could be found in his family, as one would currently gather from the article? Hardly. Conrad Black explains:
This was a straight play for the one-quarter of Americans who were Roman Catholics, most of them habitual Democrats...[though Pat] had never been a Roman Catholic and was in fact an agnostic. (p. 250)
It's analysis such as that of the speech's craft and content that helps the reader understand not just the speech's immediate impact, but why it remains one of the country's most examined political texts.—DCGeist (talk) 20:37, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- And the article has that. We cannot discss every phrase of the speech, therefore as a matter of editorial judgment you have to pick and choose. You have to explain about the dog, for obvious reasons. You need to explain about the coat, at least the origin in Eugene (I restrained myself from mentioning that Nixon was helping Pat on with the now famous coat when Eisenhower bounded on the airplane in Wheeling). We discuss the ones where the reader has to know, or that the writer thinks he should know because it impacts the story. And your points seem to be skew anyway. You want to let the reader know that Nixon hoped to attract the 19 voters nationwide who would select their candidate based on the perceived religion of the Veep candidate's wife. Then you discuss the imact today? That paragraph in the Checkers speech is relevant for exactly one reason. The irony of Nixon saying he was not a quitter, in view of his resignation from the Presidency. That relevance is obvious by inspection by the reader. It is certainly not a lesson example of how to get Roman Catholic votes based on the perceived religion of the Veep candidate's wife.
- Lazy people don't do FA's. But I don't agree with you, and feel like your proposed changes would make the article worse, not better. That's just my considered judgment, in which at least two reviewers apparently join.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:33, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Not sure how "lazy" suddenly came up here. Though I do have a concern about judgment: You dismissed Perlstein earlier in this thread; you have now as much as stated that your personal analysis of the St. Patrick's Day passage is superior to Black's. There's really nothing more for me to add, except...
- Oppose: Fails 1b—comprehensiveness—for multiple reasons described above. There are related 1c concerns, as well.—DCGeist (talk) 22:58, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Perlstein is a questionable source, careless of facts (you yourself pointed out the battle star fiasco), and carelessly researched in my view. There's enough written on the Checkers speech per you that I am entitled to pick and choose, and Wills, which I've read (the part about Checkers anyway) is just a recounting of the speech, with bits of opinion ("the two men never trusted each other again", which flies in the teeth of the heart attack crisis, the Stassen effort to throw Nixon off the ticket in 1956, and also why Nixon was sent to Moscow in 1959). And yes, you have to know your subject to write a FA about a collectively-recalled subject like this, there are tons of details that vary in accounts, and judgment is needed, and I think here has been used appropriately. By the way, have you read the scholarly reviews of Black, or any serious part of the book? He's to be carefully used because he bends over backwards to excuse Nixon. Go on, google "Conrad Black Richard Nixon" and look at the reviews. I use him very cautiously, the one bit about Nixon gaining lifetime supporters through the speech is about it, with inline attribution, and a few factual matters
- As for your oppose, that is your privilege, though I would note that your reason you don't think it is comprehensive has slid all over the place since you began engaging in this. I'll leave it to the judgment of the FA director. Simply, there is no way, in an article that is not titled "List of explanations of references by and strategy of Richard Nixon in the Checkers speech", to do what you want.. The article is comprehensive per standard 1b. The oppose is unfortunate, but the opposer hasn't engaged with two reviewers who have told him that the article is fine. Standard 1b says " (b) comprehensive: it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context;" The article does so, the reviewer seems to want a blow by blow analysis of the Checkers speech which would chop up the article in little bits and make it virtually unreadable. I don't consider the objection actionable for the reasons stated by myself and two other reviewers who have tried to engage, unsuccessfully, with him, and I don't think there's much more to be said myself.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support: This is a very well-written article and gives a balanced context for its discussion. I agree that further detail about the points raised by DCGeist would obfuscate, more than illuminate, the discussion. Obviously, there is a large body of commentary on the speech and Nixon's claims generally. Our job, in writing WP articles is to choose among secondary sources to present, for the general reader, the most important information about the subject in a format that is of appropriate length for an encyclopedia article. I think the choices that Wehwalt has made here reasonably optimize the reading experience for the WP audience. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:53, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Karanacs 16:40, 2 June 2009 [45].
Great Northern, Piccadilly and Brompton Railway
I am re-nominating this for featured article. It's a companion piece to two of my existing featured articles on the early history of London's tube lines. It was previously nominated in April, but the nomination was closed unsuccessfully due, I believe, to lack of support. I believe that all previous issues raised were addressed. Images are either self-created, uploaded as attribution sharealike from Flickr or PD due to age. --DavidCane (talk) 22:53, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support – supported last time and see no reason to change my opinion. – iridescent 19:21, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments -
- http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/ .. I know we've discussed this before. Mind rehashing the arguments why it satisfies WP:SPS for the other reviewers?
- Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:42, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The CULG site gives a comprehensive list of its published sources here plus other, more general, sources here (under sources). I have a number of the books listed in the bibliography (using two of them myself as sources for the article) and have crossed-checked information listed on the site against these without discovering any discrepancies, so it seems fair to conclude that other information is also properly sourced. The information for which the web site is cited in the article is:
- the length of line in the original form and current condition. I have confirmed these are accurate by:
- measuring the route on a map
- checking against distances between stations quoted in chains on a Railway Clearing House map
- the number of lifts at certain stations - which matches the observable facts.
- the length of line in the original form and current condition. I have confirmed these are accurate by:
- --DavidCane (talk) 03:42, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The CULG site gives a comprehensive list of its published sources here plus other, more general, sources here (under sources). I have a number of the books listed in the bibliography (using two of them myself as sources for the article) and have crossed-checked information listed on the site against these without discovering any discrepancies, so it seems fair to conclude that other information is also properly sourced. The information for which the web site is cited in the article is:
- Support: An important article in the history of London's transport system, around which topic a decent series of articles is in the making. My one reservation, fully aired at the last FAC, concerned the legibility of some of the text in the charts. This still niggles – but not enough to prevent me supporting. Brianboulton (talk) 21:21, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image review: no issues with the images. They are verifiably either self-created (and appropriately licensed) or in the public domain. Jappalang (talk) 22:09, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I share Brianboulton's concern about legibility, but no serious issues other than one (unactionable) abomination - the name change of Gillespie Road station, which surely should be reversed now? ;) jimfbleak (talk) 16:08, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Still where the away fans for Arsenal FC get off, so keeping the name's at least defensible (since they'll be the ones least likely to look on the map, think "ah, Finsbury Park looks closer", and get hopelessly lost. – iridescent 19:17, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, (but with a query, following). Beautifully written, and an interesting and detailed history. This is the first time I have contributed to a FAC review, so I apologise if I'm off base at all. I have a general query about the decision when to provide an inline citation. The referencing appears excellent, but from time to time there is a sentence that contains a substantive fact that does not have an in-line cite. The one that particularly attracted my attention was this: "However, competition from numerous small bus companies during the early 1920s eroded the profitability of the LGOC and had a negative impact on the profitability of the whole UERL group." Is the lack of a cite tag on this sentence because the next tag (which occurs part way through the next para in this case) includes this fact? I have wrestled with this issue with some GA candidates, too. My concern is that a reviewer cannot tell, without going to the source material, whether they should assume a later citation covers a fact in the current sentence, or whether there is actually a problem with a fact not being supported by any ref at all. If the citation in the following para does also cover this fact about bus competition, my comment would be that the reliance of several consecutive sentences on a single cite should not extend across paras. I hope my query makes sense. Any guidance or response? Cheers. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:48, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Karanacs 16:40, 2 June 2009 [46].
Battle of Ticonderoga (1759)
This is the third article I've submitted having to do with Fort Ticonderoga. Hopefully, the FA reviewers will smile on this one as well. This action is noteworthy mainly because this year is the 250th anniversary of the event (as it also is of a somewhat more famous battle in the French and Indian War).
The article has passed a GA review, as well as a fairly straightforward MILHIST A-Class review; I've worked since then primarily to tighten the writing. Thank you for taking the time to review. Magic♪piano 20:31, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:40, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
- I've made some minor changes to the article in addition to these comments below. If there's any problems, don't hesitate to let me know.
- Comment No problem, it's not my article.
- This might sound silly, but can you use the term "Frenchmen" to define French-Canadians ... or do you not make that distinction that far back?
- Comment The regular military and the provincial militia in New France were distinct (as they were in the British colonies). On the other hand, I can probably remove that whole distinction in the background paragraph, as it's hardly vital. Done
- The lede mentions "improvements to the area" after the fort's fall, but I don't see any mention of these later in the article. Could you please explain them?
- Comment Aftermath, second paragraph (roads, construction of Crown Point).
- In the Background section, do you think "broken" is jargon, or should it be clear through inference?
- Comment I'll change it to "defeated". Done
- I'm a little confused by the starting positions for the 1759 campaign. Fort Ticonderoga is in the United States today, yet it was built by the French in French-controlled territory?
- Comment I will clarify this. That was the frontier between New York and New France at the time. Done
- Going "north, down Lake Champlain" seems a little awkward; most people (or at least me) don't think of north as down, even though I can grasp what you're saying.
- Comment I need to communicate that going north is indeed going "down" the lake (i.e. towards its exit), precisely because people don't usually think of "north" as "down". Changed "down" to "on".
- I know you probably don't want to repeat what's written in the Fort Ticonderoga article, but it might be worth pushing the line about why the French built the forts up toward the top of the article and expound a bit on the geography -- why the British had to advance up this route.
- Comment I'll add some more strategic background. Done, I think.
- When you say "from Pennsylvania to New Hampshire and Massachusetts", this might not be clear to a non-American audience; what colonies this includes isn't obvious.
- Going back to the fourth comment, it's not clear where you're talking about when you mention "frontier forts".
- Comment Would something like "western frontier forts" be an improvement? (I could also import this map if that would help.)
- It just goes back to the question about where the border was between British and French claims ... I know the frontier moved gradually westward, but I just don't know where it was at this time. Judging from the map, it appears that it was near the Ohio River. Is that correct? JKBrooks85 (talk) 01:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added the map (it's more useful than the Ti detail map anyway); I trust the language I've added clarifies the territorial situation at the time.
- It just goes back to the question about where the border was between British and French claims ... I know the frontier moved gradually westward, but I just don't know where it was at this time. Judging from the map, it appears that it was near the Ohio River. Is that correct? JKBrooks85 (talk) 01:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Would something like "western frontier forts" be an improvement? (I could also import this map if that would help.)
- You've got wikilinks for the British regiments; should the French "La Reine and Berry" regiments get links at least to their namesakes?
- Comment I don't believe they have pages. The best list currently in WP appears to be here, and even the on are stubby.
- The Commemorations section is a bit barren ... could you add a bit about what's planned? Were there any celebrations for other anniversaries -- 200th, 150th, etc.?
- Comment Good question. I know the fort was opened to the public in 1909, but the inaugural events marked Champlain's "discovery". I'll have to see if anything obvious turns up for 1959. (The Battle of Carillon is much more likely to have been marked by major events.)
- The only indications of commemoration in 1959 I've been able to turn up are from news accounts of events celebrating Champlain. (I'd like to extend to section once there are news accounts of this year's events.)
- Comment Good question. I know the fort was opened to the public in 1909, but the inaugural events marked Champlain's "discovery". I'll have to see if anything obvious turns up for 1959. (The Battle of Carillon is much more likely to have been marked by major events.)
- I've made some minor changes to the article in addition to these comments below. If there's any problems, don't hesitate to let me know.
- It's a good article, and I won't mind supporting it for FA. JKBrooks85 (talk) 11:26, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. All my questions have been answered, and the article is clear, concise, and doesn't skip any relevant portion of the subject that I can detect. It's a good article, and I wish the editors luck on the next articles in what I assume is an eventual featured topic. JKBrooks85 (talk) 04:03, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image review - File:French and Indian War map.png - The template is not good. We need to know which edition of the Harper's Encyclopedia this image comes from (there are three) and we need to know which volume (there are ten). It would, of course, also be nice to have an author. Did you check the encyclopedia itself? Finally, note that the current license is incorrect. It cannot be 100 years plus the life of the author, since the author is not listed. We either need to find the name of the author and list his/her death date or change the license to PD-1923. Awadewit (talk) 17:01, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]- Sourced The image page identifies it as coming from the 1905 edition. I've added a link to the page with the image in Google Books. The license comes from {{Harper's Encyclopedia of US History}}. Magic♪piano 17:48, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I have now fixed the image information from the Google Books scan (note that this image is from Volume 3, published in 1906). Also, note that since we don't know who the artist is, we cannot use the license that accompanies the template since it claims 100 years plus the life of the author. We have to use the PD-1923 license, which means that the work is in the public domain because it was published before 1923 in the US. I have now added that to the image description page. Awadewit (talk) 03:56, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Sourced The image page identifies it as coming from the 1905 edition. I've added a link to the page with the image in Google Books. The license comes from {{Harper's Encyclopedia of US History}}. Magic♪piano 17:48, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Conditionalsupport This article appears to be comprehensive to me - it covers all major aspects of the "battle" - and is well-written. I just have a couple of questions below.
Carillon, located near the southern end of Lake Champlain, occupied a place that was strategic in importance before white men arrived in North America - Could we be more specific about which white men these are? :)to lead an army into Canada by going north on Lake Champlain - "along Lake Champlain" or "across Lake Champlain"?
Once the image issue is resolved, I will support. Awadewit (talk) 17:36, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll clarify these. (I assume you'd rather have it say something like "Europeans" than "white men"?) Magic♪piano 17:48, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Do we know specifically which Europeans? More specificity is better - French? Spanish? British, etc. Awadewit (talk) 03:56, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I trust my last edit is specific enough? (I've also changed "going north on" to "sailing north on"; I don't like "along" because it could imply "beside", and I don't like "across" because the lake's geography implies to me a crossing of the short dimension.) Magic♪piano 19:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Do we know specifically which Europeans? More specificity is better - French? Spanish? British, etc. Awadewit (talk) 03:56, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll clarify these. (I assume you'd rather have it say something like "Europeans" than "white men"?) Magic♪piano 17:48, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Query Is there a reason why these really old sources are being cited (especially with respect to factual items such as statistics/dates)? Seems like a safer route would be to verify these statements against more modern sources. BuddingJournalist 01:33, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Some of the force numbers in this, especially those of the militias, were maddeningly difficult to track down. Part of this is due to the relative unimportance of this event in 1759, as it was overshadowed by the Quebec action, but also most modern treatments of the war just don't seem to give things like the militia numbers (note that I've been unable to locate actual numbers for the militia contributions of Pennsylvania, Connecticut, or Rhode Island). The infobox numbers are all sourced to fairly recent works.
- I also have a slight bias toward placing citations in Internet-readable sources, especially if something is relatively uncontroversial. Magic♪piano 04:11, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support and query I can't see any major issues, but I don't like the forced image size for File:Ticonderoga attack plan2.jpg. This overrides user preferences, and the whole point of thumbnails is that you can click on them for tthe full-size image. jimfbleak (talk) 16:17, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I was actually motivated to improve this article (which was fairly stubby) in part by Durova's work on that map (which is a Featured Picture). In my opinion it is only usable if displayed somewhat larger. With the larger size at least some detail is more visible. This is just my opinion, of course; if consensus otherwise seems to prefer default sizing, I'm OK with that. (Thanks for your support!) Magic♪piano 15:13, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Karanacs 16:40, 2 June 2009 [47].
Battle of Vimy Ridge
- Nominator(s): Labattblueboy (talk) 04:29, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think the article, as it stands, is likely the best and most widely cited piece of work on the subject currently on the internet. As it stands, the article has involved over a year of research and review and cites 33 separate pieces of work, most of which are academically reviewed. It has been through GA, A-class level reviews as well as a peer review. Every attempt has been made to deliver a fair perspective of the battle, a difficult task with the cultural attachments Canada has made to the battle. Labattblueboy (talk) 04:29, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments -
You've mixed using the Template:Citation with the templates that start with Cite such as Template:Cite journal or Template:Cite news. They shouldn't be mixed per WP:CITE#Citation templates.doneCurrent ref 108 (Gibbs..) has the author and publisher run into the link title. Please separate them out to match your other web links.done'What makes http://www.durandgroup.org.uk/Vimy_Ridge.htm a reliable source?
- The Durand Group is an archaeological and research group. They are an authority figure on First World War underground warfare and the principal authority for underground warfare at Vimy Ridge. Any source talking about underground warfare either makes reference to their work or have directly consulted them in producing it. --Labattblueboy (talk) 13:58, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:30, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment
Reference 55 does not work (it does not go down to the proper book at the bottom of the page)done
- Corrected Tucker citation, apparently the reference had not previously been included. --Labattblueboy (talk) 04:31, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Many of the ISBNs under "References" are not linked. Go through and link the ones that aren't. Mm40 (talk) 19:28, 8 May 2009 (UTC)done[reply]
- I only found two with issues (Farr and Wynne refs). Don't believe any others lacking ISBNs have one and verified such through isbndb.com. --Labattblueboy (talk) 04:31, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment
Ashworth in refs but not notes; ditto Ross. A much bigger problem is that four authors (Boire, Cook, Godefroy and Sheldon) have more than one book in the refs, but no attempt was made in the notes to specify which of the books by a given author was being cited. This absolutely must be fixed. Ling.Nut (talk—WP:3IAR) 13:23, 11 May 2009 (UTC)done[reply]
- Ashworth, Ross and the Sheldon/Cave have been removed. All citation already link to the proper book through the footnote inline links. I have nevertheless added the year and in the Godefroy case, year + a & b.--Labattblueboy (talk) 14:12, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments Support
Non-breaking spaces missing between numbers and following text
- I'm not putting nbsp after every number and following text, that's ridiculous. It's been done for distances, quantities in the millions and for time. I have not and will not go through the trouble of adding them for when it comes to qunatities (such as number of men, aircraft, squadrons, artillery pieces, ect) under one million, units or formation names or dates. It's a military article full of figures, there is going to be end-of-line displacement. --Labattblueboy (talk) 17:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Your call, however I think you'll find some folks may have a different opinion of this.
- I'm not putting nbsp after every number and following text, that's ridiculous. It's been done for distances, quantities in the millions and for time. I have not and will not go through the trouble of adding them for when it comes to qunatities (such as number of men, aircraft, squadrons, artillery pieces, ect) under one million, units or formation names or dates. It's a military article full of figures, there is going to be end-of-line displacement. --Labattblueboy (talk) 17:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
en-dash should be used for page number ranges
- Done and done. It had been done earlier but looks like it got undone somewhere along the line. --Labattblueboy (talk) 17:50, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Passive voice used in a number of places where active might be better
largely completecompleted
- Examples please. --Labattblueboy (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"formal assault plan was adopted..."done- "Canadian divisions were to be assembled "
"Canadian divisions were joined by the British "done"once a salient of considerable German resistance was overcome"done"Byng had been formally presented with orders"done
- (+others)
- Significant decrease in the number of passive voice examples, particularly those employing "was" or "were" and, to a lesser extent, "had". Those that seem to work best as passive voice have been left as such. --Labattblueboy (talk) 06:39, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Examples please. --Labattblueboy (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You should consider adding conversion templates for km distancesdone"To logistically manage" = split infinitive; also a fragmented sentence that could probably be structured a little betterdone
- Changed to: "The Canadian Corps was allocated three times the artillery normally assigned to a corps for regular operations.[5] To manage the logistics associated with the increased artillery, Royal Artillery staff officer Major Alan Brooke developed coordinated communication and transport plans to work in conjunction with the complex barrage plans" --Labattblueboy (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Artillery" section - too many sentences starting with "To..."?done
- you are very right. I think this has now been largely corrected. --Labattblueboy (talk) 17:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Mines" is not linked in the articledone
- In the Background section, mines is not linked to Mining (military) and in the Underground operations section, underground warfare is linked to tunnel warfare. --Labattblueboy (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Time should include a time zoneno action needed
- ahhh, I have never a) heard this request before or b) seen use of time zones in an FA class military article. I don't really see what the benefit is in including it. So unless required by a editorial consensus I am going to pass on action this item. --Labattblueboy (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Mentioned it because I saw this usage in another FAC recently, however I don't know if it's required so let's leave it at that.
- ahhh, I have never a) heard this request before or b) seen use of time zones in an FA class military article. I don't really see what the benefit is in including it. So unless required by a editorial consensus I am going to pass on action this item. --Labattblueboy (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"four hundred eighty", "one hundred thirty-eight" etc - use digits for numbers per WP:MOSNUMno action needed
- As per WP:MOSNUM, adjacent quantities which are not comparable should usually be in different formats. one hundred thirty-eight 4.5 inch howitzers works better than 138 4.5 inch howitzers --Labattblueboy (talk) 17:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In the aftermath, can the bullet points be phrased as text?
- It will end up being a long sequence within a sentence and will certainly not read very well as plain text. Although I know MoS generally frowns on embedded lists, I believe the current presentation works a bit better. --Labattblueboy (talk) 02:57, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think you should take another look at this.
- I took another look at this and tried the edit in sandbox. In my view it doesn't work as clean readible text unless the units formation names is removed. This would be no big deal for the Canadian medal winners as I suspect the info is on their respective articles but it would be detremental for the German side. Thoughts? --Labattblueboy (talk) 13:35, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think you should take another look at this.
- It will end up being a long sequence within a sentence and will certainly not read very well as plain text. Although I know MoS generally frowns on embedded lists, I believe the current presentation works a bit better. --Labattblueboy (talk) 02:57, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"A 250 acres portion..." - "A 250 acre portion..."?done
- Since it’s an adjective “acre” (no "s") is correct. --Labattblueboy (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed one more
- Since it’s an adjective “acre” (no "s") is correct. --Labattblueboy (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What did the memorial cost to build in today's money (See the {{Inflation}} template)
- No idea. I don't think the parameters of the inflation template were designed for such an example. Canadian government funds were allocated and spent over no less than an 11 year period and you can be certain the funds were not allocated in a straight-line fashion. Construction takes place over the Canadian Great Depression, a period that included both inflation and deflation. Calculating the inflation rate would certainly not be easy. There is no Canadian central bank until 1935 so if calculating through interest rates you'd have to find the historical interest rates from the Bank of Montreal (the gov't banker the time). If calculating via CPI which do you use, Canadian for French. There are too many fluctuating factors and unknowns for me to feel comfortable making this estimate. An accurate result would require primary research. --Labattblueboy (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mutiple references should be consolidated, e.g. "Granatstein p. 113"done
- I think that one was a fluke, didn't see any other than the Granatstein p. 113 --Labattblueboy (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Humphries pp. 73-76
- Samuels pp. 200-202
- I think that one was a fluke, didn't see any other than the Granatstein p. 113 --Labattblueboy (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fragmented sentence
"The town of Thélus and, after overcoming considerable German resistance, the crest of the ridge fell during the second day"done
- changed to: "The town of Thélus fell to the Canadian Corps during the second day of the attack, as did the crest of the ridge once a salient of considerable German resistance was overcome."
Split infinitive: "to properly apply"done
- corrected --Labattblueboy (talk) 02:14, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Inconsistent use of past tense (e.g. "The Battle of Vimy Ridge was a military engagement fought as part of the Battle of Arras" vs "In May 1916, Byng had been formally presented with orders")
Consistent use of regional English (e.g. "recognized" vs "recognised"; "color" vs "colour")
This one is a continuous battle but I believe I have caught them all. Please review.done --Labattblueboy (talk) 13:21, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]"totaling" vs "totalling" (totalling)done
You should take a look at the POV- the article is written from a Canadian perspective, with "the enemy" implicitly German in a number of locations. (i.e. The Canadians were the enemy too, from the German's perspective)done
- Where relevant, I have gone through and replaced enemy with a nationality. Other suggestions?
Weasel words: "Often this belief is specifically anchored on the Canadian victory at Vimy Ridge"done
- Re-written, expanded and citation given. --Labattblueboy (talk) 13:59, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Missing access dates for : "All of Vimy Ridge Cleared of Germans", "Official History of the Canadian Army...", "Here at Vimy..."doneIncomplete sentence: "However, only after they had run out of ammunition, mortars rounds and grenades."done
- combined with previous sentence.
"Influence on Canada" - the wording in section needs some tightening up, as I feel it's too flowery for an encyclopedia.in progressdone
I'm not sure that can be done, it's a cultural influence summary which essentially makes it a POV nightmare. --Labattblueboy (talk) 05:30, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]- I have re-written the section. I have done my best to improve its objectivity. I am welcome any suggestions you may have on improving this section. It's a tricky one. --Labattblueboy (talk) 21:07, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Copyvio - the word-for-word unquoted text I found in the "Influence on Canada" section is a concern for me at the moment - are there any other parts of the text like this?done
- Removed offending text. How would you suggest I proceed in replacing it or would that not be necessary. --Labattblueboy (talk) 05:30, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- My concern is not over this sentence, which if duely quoted presents no problem, but rather that there may be other text like this elsewhere in the article. I don't know the history of who contributed what, but it might be worth checking the additions of the editor who added that text if it was not you.
- Removed offending text. How would you suggest I proceed in replacing it or would that not be necessary. --Labattblueboy (talk) 05:30, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"The main combatants were the Canadian Corps against three divisions of the German Sixth Army" - should you not state that 70,000 of the Canadian Corps was not Canadian? no action needed
- It is indirectly stated in the Strategic planning section. The number of Canadians is noted rather than the number of non-Canadians --Labattblueboy (talk) 04:54, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've probably not explained myself very well - someone reading the introduction would not necessary be aware that only 58% of the Canadian Core was Canadian ("The main combatants were the Canadian Corps against three divisions of the German Sixth Army") i.e. it was not simply Canadian vs Germans. PS: Please don't strike out my comments.
- My apologies, striking your comments was not meant to me malicious just organizational, I will stop doing so. I don't really see the percentage of Canadians in the corps being of central importance to the basic description of the battle. This being said, I have gone through the article and removed any reference to "Canadians" or "Canadian troops" and replaced them with "Canadian Corps" or appropriate unit/formation name to help remove any national possessiveness but I can't help that the name of the formation is the Canadian Corps.--Labattblueboy (talk) 00:22, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've probably not explained myself very well - someone reading the introduction would not necessary be aware that only 58% of the Canadian Core was Canadian ("The main combatants were the Canadian Corps against three divisions of the German Sixth Army") i.e. it was not simply Canadian vs Germans. PS: Please don't strike out my comments.
- It is indirectly stated in the Strategic planning section. The number of Canadians is noted rather than the number of non-Canadians --Labattblueboy (talk) 04:54, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"The heavy preliminary artillery bombardments of the Canadian Corps ahead of their own offensive ultimately prevented the Germans from executing their pre-emptive attack" - I'm not sure in this sentence who did the bombing...done
- shortened and simplified.--Labattblueboy (talk) 04:54, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've read that the attack was initially planned for Sun 8 April, but delayed for a day over concerns about the barbed wire not being cleared. Is there a way to incorporate this information?
- I do believe the entire arras offensive was pushed by a day, but I don't know when that was decided or for what purpose. Most of the material I have been dealing with makes no mention of it though. --Labattblueboy (talk) 05:50, 16 May 2009 (UTC) done[reply]
- Take a look at the link in my comment above
- The link offered no information as to why it was delayed or when that decision was taken. However, I have found an appropriate and will include citation and text in the April 9 section.--Labattblueboy (talk) 00:22, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Take a look at the link in my comment above
- I do believe the entire arras offensive was pushed by a day, but I don't know when that was decided or for what purpose. Most of the material I have been dealing with makes no mention of it though. --Labattblueboy (talk) 05:50, 16 May 2009 (UTC) done[reply]
Have you considered using this image of the memorial, which seems to fit better with the timeline and text in the article?done
- It's a good image but it doesn't show the memorial as a whole. I'm not really of a strong opinion of one image or the other though and would not oppose an image change here. --Labattblueboy (talk) 05:50, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Why is there no mention at all of Arthur Currie, who appears to have been involved closely with the French lectures about Verdun, the development of Canadian tactics used in the assault and who in 1917 became the first Canadian commander of the Canadian Corps?done
- There was no particular reason for the omission. Some histories have sought to overemphasize Currie's involvement in the planning for some very obvious Canadian nationalistic purposes but that certainly isn't reason for omitting him either. I am working on incorporating additional points of information. --Labattblueboy (talk) 15:32, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I have added Currie's influence in the developing the assault plan and his contribution via his post-Verdun lecture. --Labattblueboy (talk) 13:35, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support - in my view, this engaging and well-written article satisfies the FA criteria. I cannot comment on the comprehensiveness because this is not a subject I know much about. I have made a few minor edits to the prose, [48], please check that I have not introduced any errors of fact. Graham Colm Talk 14:29, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image concern as follows:
File:Vimy Ridge 1917-barrage map.jpg: from where comes the claim that this was by the 1st Field Survey Company, Royal Engineers and thus an Ordnance Survey map?
- The map is marked as being produced by the 1st Field Survey Company, Royal Engineers on the bottom left by the Canadian Corps boundary line. Base maps were largely produced by the Ordnance Survey (OS). This being said, the supplementary work to the base map could make it a Canadian crown copyright issue. "British-Canadian Military Cartography on the Western Front, 1914-1918" by Jeffery Murray in Archivaria 26 (Summer 1988) offers some good detail on the history. So I would say, OS w/ Canadian crown copyright should about cover it. The source archive does not list any restrictions so I feel pretty safe is saying it's public domain. --Labattblueboy (talk) 23:00, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I doubt the 1st Field Survey Company is Canadian. The map, supplied to the Canadian Corps, is British work (OS and military)—hence UK Crown Copyright. Marked as such. Jappalang (talk) 01:19, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Good call. To be honest I hadn't thought of the UK Crown copyright and you're right it would be more appropriate. --Labattblueboy (talk) 12:51, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I doubt the 1st Field Survey Company is Canadian. The map, supplied to the Canadian Corps, is British work (OS and military)—hence UK Crown Copyright. Marked as such. Jappalang (talk) 01:19, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The map is marked as being produced by the 1st Field Survey Company, Royal Engineers on the bottom left by the Canadian Corps boundary line. Base maps were largely produced by the Ordnance Survey (OS). This being said, the supplementary work to the base map could make it a Canadian crown copyright issue. "British-Canadian Military Cartography on the Western Front, 1914-1918" by Jeffery Murray in Archivaria 26 (Summer 1988) offers some good detail on the history. So I would say, OS w/ Canadian crown copyright should about cover it. The source archive does not list any restrictions so I feel pretty safe is saying it's public domain. --Labattblueboy (talk) 23:00, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Other Images are verifiably in public domain, the above might become a concern (note: the issue is regarding verifiability). Awaiting feedback. Jappalang (talk) 15:11, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Support - well written, well-sourced, and an excellent source of information. MelicansMatkin (talk) 23:36, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.