CorbieVreccan (talk | contribs) →Source improvements: use them both. |
CorbieVreccan (talk | contribs) →Removed Content Senior paper & Keene: Total lack of third-party sourcing on not really notable scouting group. Mostly notable for racism. |
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::::I'm not saying she isn't a professor, a respected scholar, or a sought-out speaker on any subject. I'm not even saying she is wrong (or right)! I'm not even contesting she's notable enough for her own article. I'm contesting that her opinions are just that: opinions. They are NOT reliable sources in and of themselves as defined by Wikipedia. If we are going to make an exception, we need to justify why we shouldn't follow the criteria of [[WP:RS]] for inclusion. [[User:Buffs|Buffs]] ([[User talk:Buffs|talk]]) 19:41, 5 March 2019 (UTC) |
::::I'm not saying she isn't a professor, a respected scholar, or a sought-out speaker on any subject. I'm not even saying she is wrong (or right)! I'm not even contesting she's notable enough for her own article. I'm contesting that her opinions are just that: opinions. They are NOT reliable sources in and of themselves as defined by Wikipedia. If we are going to make an exception, we need to justify why we shouldn't follow the criteria of [[WP:RS]] for inclusion. [[User:Buffs|Buffs]] ([[User talk:Buffs|talk]]) 19:41, 5 March 2019 (UTC) |
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::::If "Keene is one of the most-cited authors in the field", then it should be easy to find an article from a reliable source to support these claims. [[User:Buffs|Buffs]] ([[User talk:Buffs|talk]]) 20:00, 5 March 2019 (UTC) |
::::If "Keene is one of the most-cited authors in the field", then it should be easy to find an article from a reliable source to support these claims. [[User:Buffs|Buffs]] ([[User talk:Buffs|talk]]) 20:00, 5 March 2019 (UTC) |
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Where's all the third-party sourcing on this group, period? As I said below, most people think these groups have gone the way of other unfortunate, racist historic practices. Official sites by academics are usable, and certainly better than BSA sites speaking about themselves. Most of what's out there now ''is'' commentary about the racism. - [[User:CorbieVreccan|<span style="font-family:georgia"><b style="color:#44018F;">Co</b><b style="color: #003878;">rb</b><b style="color: #145073;">ie</b><b style="color: #006E0D">V</b></span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:CorbieVreccan|☊]]</sup> [[WP:SPIDER|☼]] 22:25, 5 March 2019 (UTC) |
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==Re-adding Deloria as a reference== |
==Re-adding Deloria as a reference== |
Revision as of 22:25, 5 March 2019
Order of the Arrow has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||
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Scouting GA‑class High‑importance | |||||||||||||
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Criticism of ceremonies
As a Boy Scout leader, I think it is positive and shows respect to mention potential concerns with the issue of Indian American appropriation. The "STATEMENT OF U.S. COMMISSION ON CIVIL RIGHTS ON THE USE OF NATIVE AMERICAN IMAGES AND NICKNAMES AS SPORTS SYMBOLS" is relevant in a fair unbiased article on the Order of the Arrow 15:18, 28 September 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stocksdale (talk • contribs)
So, how does a handshake sash ribbon pin and so on impinge on native americans. The ceremonies where based on many sources. Is THE SONG OF HIAWATHA evil? I like poetry for the singing in the lines and the vision. Maybe the boys doing the ceremony should only wear black robes and no reference to any culture. So, if a boy who's father wrote some story about living as a member of a tribe some where? But the son is an eagle scout and OA member? Keep the concept of local tribe consultation. What is the proper place for this other informtion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KeenWh (talk • contribs) 03:05, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
I think the Order of the arrow is a great organization. I'm a leader in Boy Scouts. However in a fair and balanced article, it would be appropriate to include these concerns. It is wikipedia, not a public relations article. (talk • contribs) 03:05, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
And what are your credentials to claim you are a leader. So what. When I see this argument on the Tribe of Mic-O-Say page then I will accept your claim. Until then, why does mic-o-say get a pass? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:600:8200:1DFD:983B:C8D3:24F5:24C3 (talk) 00:34, 1 October 2015 (UTC) |}
I also want to point out the the OotA is not a "Honor Society", the qualification is simply to be voted in. Wulfy95113 (talk) 20:50, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
Indian vs. Native American
While it's mentioned in the FAQ, I don't actually see where in talk consensus was to use "American Indian" here, instead of "Native American" as is substantially more common elsewhere on Wikipedia. Since Wikipedia isn't an extension of the BSA, the use of the BSA's manual of style is entirely optional and up for debate. Obviously, consistency with Wikipedia takes priority over consistency with the BSA's published materials, since this is not a platform for promotion. Discussions I've seen in the archive seem to be based on WP:OR-anecdote and personal opinion, which are unpersuasive. Grayfell (talk) 20:08, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
- I'm not attached to one term over the other. Personally, I don't see a reason to change from the BSA's manual of style since it's already consistent with the rest of the BSA-related articles. While NA may be more prevalent than AI, it looks like there are other articles using American Indian and Indigenous people. Deflagro Contribs/Talk 06:09, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
- While, I guess I'm not either, but it does seem odd to have this be a FAQ issue if it hasn't been discussed before. I tend to prefer links to match article titles as closely as possible, but maybe I'm being dogmatic. If nobody else feels strongly about it, I'll drop it. Grayfell (talk) 07:17, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
Association with Native American Cultures
@PeaceandHonor: There are several very serious problems with the changes you have been aggressively attempting to add to this article. Using primary sources to explain the history of this highly controversial aspect in extremely flattering language would be bad enough. ...respect for Native Americans is profuse...
is one of several examples editorializing, non-neutral language. This is a claim being made by some in the BSA, not an objective fact. That you have added this information in detail as a prelude to the entire section about the controversy primes the reader to take a specific, more flattering view of this issue, which is not acceptable.
These sources are also unacceptable for this perspective. These are relatively obscure articles from specific BSA groups, not outside documents about this issue. Due weight doesn't mean balanceing both sides of an issue, because that is false balance. It means covering it in proportion to how reliable, independent sources cover it. If you know of reliable, independent sources discussing how effusively respectful the BSA is towards whatever tribe happens to be convenient to them, let's see them. I think if such sources exist, you would've already added them.
As a reminder, Wikipedia isn't a platform for promotion of any group, no matter how ostensibly noble its intentions might be. Grayfell (talk) 02:55, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Grayfell: Hello Grayfell. The Order of the Arrow article now presents, accurately, that some Native Americans approve of the use of Native American elements as part of the organization, while some Native Americans criticize this as inauspicious cultural appropriation. Previously, the article presented the situation as if all Native Americans criticized the OA for cultural appropriation. As Native Americans are not a monolithic group and there is diversity of opinion, the article now properly reflects the reality of the situation. As for labeling the last section of the article with a banner saying "This section contains content written like an advertisement," this criticism is inapplicable, as if the section were advertising the OA, the section would not include robust perspective of criticism that is many times longer than the previous version of the criticism that was present on the page. An advertisement for an organization would not present such criticism; instead, the section provides multiple perspectives. Merely showing the OA's perspective is not an advertisement, just as showing the perspective of detractors is not an advertisement for that position. I humbly request that you therefore remove the "Written like an advertisement tag". Thank you.
- You are correct that Wikipedia is not a platform for promotion of any group. That is why the article was insufficient before. On the subject of use of Native American traditions as applied by the OA, the article previously exclusively promoted the view of the group of those who view this as negative. The article now provides perspectives of those who are supporters of this, in addition to perspectives of those who are detractors.
- I understand your point about some language "flattering" and agree that some of the language could be adjusted to make it less so. As for the sources I used, if criticizing them on the grounds they are "relatively obscure" is to be a legitimate one, then numerous sources that were used in this article before I edited it at all and that were used to say that the BSA is engaging in inauspicious cultural appropriation would need to be removed, as they are "relatively obscure."
- Please take these factors into consideration. The goal here is balance and factual accuracy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PeaceandHonor (talk • contribs) 03:06, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
- @PeaceandHonor: This is a complicated issue, and trying to represent this mainly from the perspective of the BSA is only going to complicate it further. If you're associated with the BSA, you should review WP:COI, as this might explain some of my alarm at your edits.
- The section as it was before was covering a discrete issue: that some NA groups strongly objected to how the overwhelmingly non-native BSA has been treating their many cultures for over a hundred years. There are many reasons for why this has been a problem, but this is long-term issue according to these sources.
- If this article is going to use Wp:primary sources from within the BSA to discuss this, there are two big problems that need to be handled first.
- First: They absolutely needs to handle it in the context established by the other sources. If sources do not explicitly mention the issue of cultural appropriation, then we have a high risk of this being original research. Wikipedia isn't a platform for original research, and this includes linking two sources together to make a point not made by either alone (known as WP:SYNTH). If the BSA is changing its guidelines to be more sensitive to tribes, this should be explained (ideally by independent sources) in that context. Priming the section by covering how super-duper sensitive they are now, while downplaying how unbelievably crass they were in the relatively recent past, is cherry-picking the most flattering sources while ignoring the context which produced those sources.
- Think of it this way, if you can add current PR or guidebook material, I could come along and add older material which (accurately) reflects the more overtly offensive and condescending history of the society, right? Wikipedia historical view, and so this isn't based on who can do the deepest digging of sources to support their view (although I admit it feels that way sometimes).
- Second, and closely related: All sources, even sources from the BSA, need to be reliable and proportional. While it might seem pedantic, the BSA's own material is not inherently usable for this content. Wikipedia strongly favors Wp:secondary sources for this kind of thing. Instead of finding a quote from some random BSA website which tangentially supports a general point about how respectful they are, and then trying to counterpoint it with a arbitrarily selected quote from Lastrealindians.com (which I believe is just a blog, and isn't usable at all), we need to find a way to summarize this. We judge sources by context. Wikipedia seldom includes PR from companies or other organizations because the context of those sources makes them less encyclopedically important. When something is contested, context is established by outside sources.
- Does that explain my concerns? Grayfell (talk) 03:59, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Grayfell: I appreciate your elaboration of your concerns and, to be abundantly clear, agree that the use of Native American elements by the OA and BSA is a sensitive issue. It must be recognized, however, that in Native American communities there are differing opinions on this issue, and that the article NOW conveys this, whereas the article before my edits was disrespectful to Native Americans who support the OA's use of their cultural elements, as the article previously excluded their perspective. The diversity of perspectives enriches the thoroughness of this article's discussion of this topic.
- I reviewed the details of Wikipedia's guidelines for using primary and/or secondary sources, and it is indubitable that as per those guidelines, a sufficient number of secondary sources were used as the basis for the general construction of this article so as to permit employment of primary sources therein. In fact, as a result of my edits, the percentage of sources for the Order of the Arrow article that are NOT primary sources INCREASED. I reviewed the guidelines on synthesis and the details on avoiding original research, and after careful and meticulous review of that which I wrote based on the sources I provided, I am confident that each of the statements I wrote is sufficiently in accordance with the context of the source material and that multiple sources were not combined to form some assertion not originally present in the sources. As for your assertion that the article should make mention of past practices of the OA that were found offensive, it already does because of my edits: I detailed how the OA previously allowed face paint and religious dances and that when this was allowed, this was found to be offensive. I also am confident based on the context of those presenting the material that the sources I cited with regard to support and opposition to the use of Native American cultural elements by the OA are sufficiently reliable.
- As for your concern that the phrasing of the section in question is such that it is too supportive of the OA, I will adjust the text right now so as to allay your concern. With all this said, I believe it will be appropriate, following the imminent conclusion of my adjustments to the phrasing of the section to make it more neutral in tone, for the "advertisement" tag to be removed. Thank you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by PeaceandHonor (talk • contribs) 05:10, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
- @PeaceandHonor: First a couple of technical things: Please sign your posts per WP:SIGNATURE. Otherwise, the "re:" template will not notify the person you are trying to contact. Also, please use colons to indent each paragraph more (or at least differently) than the paragraph you are responding too. Yes, it's weird, to say the least. Wikipedia's talk pages have some odd conventions inherited from its older software. Following these will make it much easier to keep track of the conversation. The preview button is very helpful, here.
- On to the article. Since we are discussing this, I wish you would've waited on removing the advert template. This is still being contested, so until consensus is reached, the problem has not been resolved. I request, as a show of good faith, you restore the template until we have reached consensus. I have many problems with the current content. As I review this, I have some problems with the entire article, also, but I would like to tackle this one thing at a time.
- I'm going to get into the nitty-gritty of the section. I'm not oblivious to the many problems the previous version had. To be blunt, I don't think these changes are an improvement which is why I reverted them, but that doesn't mean it was perfect before, or even good. So let's discuss how it is now.
- So, do sources lump all NA groups together in opposing the BSA's activities? Who is saying they do? I would argue that it's just as condescending to assume the need to spell out the existence of both a pro and con-camp as it is to treat all NA as monolithic. Both are gross simplifications. I understand the urge, but we shouldn't have to bend-over backwards to remind people that people are people. Any given person from any given tribe will hold a nuanced opinion on this, and the endorsement of some tribal members, as reported by the BSA, really doesn't mean much. A better approach, which doesn't risk false balance, is to weigh and summarize each source without presenting is as representative of some larger trend. Unless, of course, a reliable source explicitly supports this as a trend. This is not just my opinion, this is how Wikipedia usually works. Well, this is my opinion on how Wikipedia works, anyway.
- Your edits were a step in the right direction, but not nearly enough. Saying "for example" is a form of editorializing. If you have a source which says this is one example among many, you could attribute this claim to that source. Otherwise, this is using a single source to make a broad but vague implication about the entire organization. I hope it's clear why "broad but vague" isn't going to cut it. Likewise, using "however" to cover past use of face paint is misrepresenting the issue. Worse, this is also unsourced. This is totally unacceptable. This is essentially burying the society's controversial and offensive behavior in the middle of a paragraph explaining how much better they are now. This is, by the way, what I meant on my talk page when I said that adding controversy was compatible with promotional intent. The article is now explaining it, barely, in a way that is mostly flattering and contemporary, based entirely on the BSA's own sources. Obvious complaints have been answered before they have been raised, which is a classic advertising technique.
- As for the "other side", why is Ozheebeegay Ikwe's opinion being included based on a single source? Who is she? Is that source reliable? If we do not have a reliable source for this, it doesn't belong. Without any other context, the article is essentially using her to represent the entirety of opposition to these practices. This is exactly backwards, isn't it? There is no monolithic reason to oppose this, instead there are many individual people who are opposed to this. Citing one as an example is arbitrary. It's not even clear why you chose that particular quote from her. The article raises some interesting points, so why is this the quote that's being used? This quote is not a summary of the article at all. If you cannot summarize a source, secondary sources are necessary. Not just optional, but necessary.
- We have a source from Indian Country Media Network, which is (from what I know) a reputable outlet. This source is being used for a single sentence. This sentence is then followed by a much longer paragraph about how the BSA started a fund to send a few dozen "American Indian" scouts to camp every year. This is, again, from another entirely routine internal source, which incidentally, mentions "
...our nation's American Indian culture...
", singular. Even that is in the context of discussing the person the fund is named for, not anything at all about NA Scouts. Nothing. This is an about page with information on financial donations to the fund, not a document discussing the reason the fund exists. Adding it in response to the points raised by the much longer, much more interesting ICT source seems... bizarre frankly. - I could go on, but this is already far too long. While I acknowledge your intentions are good, I hope this explains why this content is a big problem that needs to be addressed. Grayfell (talk) 07:33, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Grayfell: Hello, Grayfell. I had removed the banner because I had thought that my edits had sufficiently addressed your concerns, but have restored the banner as per your request.
- As for the content of the article, it is inevitable that no Wikipedia article, because of the nature of how Wikipedia works and because people have the right to have opinions different from others, will ever be totally in accordance with an individual's preferred form as to how the article should appear. In this context, it appears that there are components of the article that I view as sufficient that you do not, and I am confident that there are components of the article that you view as sufficient that I do not. In light of this, it therefore is important to prioritize components of the article for potential adjustment, and not overly devote focus to every single component of the article.
- Before we continue, I was alarmed to see on your personal talk page that in a conversation with another editor you characterized my edits as "blatantly promotional garbage," which is a fundamental mischaracterization of the overall nature of my edits. I am highly offended that you referred to my work to achieve greater neutrality, greater accuracy, and enhanced detail on an important topic in this article as such, and I hope that you will, as a result of this overall experience, be more open to the perspectives of others and truly seek to understand their views.
- I appreciate that you acknowledge the previous version of the article was problematic. It is precisely because it was problematic that I performed the adjustments I performed. In essence, I provided more context and detail, with greater diversity of voice, as to why some Native Americans have found aspects of the OA to be problematic, and because Native Americans are not a monolithic group, added details on some Native Americans supporting the OA. As per the diversity of perspective, adding details on the BSA's own view of its relationship with Native Americans as well was essential for a more thorough understanding of the context of the overall situation.
- One of the main criticisms you have had of the section as stated is that, from your perspective, it provides a "false balance." It is undoubtedly true that one's life experiences and endeavors highly affect one's perceptions, and that a significant reason why people's opinions vary is because they have encountered different sets of data. While you perceive the section to provide a false balance, I perceive the section to now provide sufficient balance based on the reality of the circumstances. There is no condescension here; there is mere identification that some Native Americans support the activities of the OA, while some Native Americans do not support the activities of the OA, with details provided for each to help readers better understand the context.
- I also appreciate that you viewed my edits as a step in the right direction. I think that calling for "for example" to be removed because you perceive it to be not in accordance with Wikipedia's editorializing policy is a bit of a stretch, but I will restructure that section to address that. My edits to that part as well will address the "broad but vague" aspect of your criticism.
- You mentioned that you had fault with the use of "however" in the sentence about face paint, and yet the word "however" does not appear in the sentence. You criticized the face paint discussion as unsourced, whereas a source IS provided for this; the sentence regarding face paint, and the subsequent sentence, are covered by the source immediately after the two sentences together. I have seen NUMEROUS Wikipedia articles throughout the years source material this way: covering multiple sentences that together are based on material from one source with a citation to the source at the end of that group of sentences, without each sentence needing a cite link. Your criticism of the face paint component is a nitpick (you are reading WAY TOO MUCH into the way I wrote that sentence), and based on the fact that, as mentioned before, the breadth of the overall criticism of the OA's practices now is far greater in the article as a result of my edits than it previously was, with numerous paragraphs and details added regarding modern criticism, this fundamentally undermines the idea you have asserted that controversy was added to the article for promotional intent, and very importantly completely undermines the legitimacy of having the "advertisement" tag present.
- If you look at the complete history of the article, Ikwe's article was first used as a source many years ago and therefore was part of the page for many years. I decided to adjust the way it was used for the article to emphasize her point so as to provide more context on one dimension of why Native Americans have contested the OA's practices. As the page sourced her article for many years and you did not have a problem with it as a source before, it should not be a problem to use her as a source now. Based on the context of her statements, she is a sufficiently reliable source. Your criticism that highlighting her statement in particular is flawed because it presents there as being a monolithic, singular reason to oppose the OA's practices is completely undermined by the fact the article is explicitly clear that there are multiple aspects of why individual Native Americans have opposed the OA's practices, with Ikwe's merely being a highlighted one so as to provide further context to readers on one of these aspects. The summary of a source does not need to be the basis for a Wikipedia citation or other reference citation in general; rather, as has been done countless times throughout history as part of standard practice, a part of a source may be used that is not itself a summary of the work as a whole but which is relevant in a particular way.
- As per your concerns with the sentence on the BSA fund, I will remove that sentence.
- In light of all of this, it would be reasonable for the "advertisement" tag to be removed following brief edits I am about to make.PeaceandHonor (talk) 13:07, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Grayfell: I have adjusted the section by modifying the second paragraph and deleting the sentence on the fund, as per our discussion. At this point, in light of all we have discussed, it would be reasonable for the "advertisement" tag to be removed.PeaceandHonor (talk) 13:18, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
- First, I must apologize for misrepresenting the content as unsourced. There are still problems with this paragraph, but this was a mistake on my part that I should not have attributed to you. The source did mention this history, and more.
- Likewise, the (pedantic) point about "however" was my error. I meant to explain the issue with starting a sentence with "While..." This is a form of editorializing which needs to be handled carefully, but I completely failed to explain this, obviously.
- I've made several changes to help demonstrate the problems I am talking about. While I believe these improve the article, they are mainly a demonstration of the kinds of issues the section, and the entire article, has. It doesn't really matter where the problems came from. What matters is how to fix them. I think as a whole, the expansion of this section sets a bad precedent. Building an article from a non-neutral starting point is often more frustrating than it needs to be.
- Yes, "garbage" is strong language, and you have every right to be offended, just as I have the right to be offended by your first edit. This edit removed unflattering content from the lede, which is intended to be a summary of the body. It also appeared to highlight flattering content and drowned-out criticism with yet more of the primary-sourced minutia that already fills the rest of the article. I maintain that this was extremely inappropriate. Couching this in civil language doesn't make this less offensive. Your edit was written from the perspective of the OA, not from a neutral outside perspective. I can understand that these edits made the section more like the rest of the article, but this only highlights the larger problem. There are too many lengthy sections based on relatively trivial sources published by the BSA about the BSA. This is a flaw of the entire article, and your edit, reasonably, continued that.
- When I said "false balance", I did not mean balance between your perspective and mine, I meant balance of reliable sources in accordance with due weight. This is a Wikipedia policy. The article should not be based entirely on primary sources. If the only sources discussing the OA were from within Scouting, then this likely wouldn't even meet notability guidelines, and the article would've been deleted. I don't think that's going to happen, of course. I'm not bringing that up as any sort of threat, but as a demonstration of how Wikipedia handles these kinds of things. We absolutely must rely on outside perspectives. Giving the OA the benefit of the doubt about how respectful they are, as though this were an objective fact, or an old problem which has now been "solved", is deeply flawed. It is not the OA's place to say how respected other people are allowed to feel, and it is not Wikipedia's place to confirm. This isn't a platform to share the OA's perspective on itself. This is a summary of reliable sources about the OA.
- This is what I meant when I said that the BSA isn't necessarily reliable. Again, all sources must be judged by context. Why, exactly, does the article need to explain, for a third time, that the Lenni Lenape used to live near the Delaware camp? Who is saying that they "appreciated" the Lenni Lenape? Why is "appreciation" presented as though it were inherently positive? (It really isn't). "Lenni Lanape" isn't mentioned in that source at all, nor is any specific group. The source only mentions "early American Indian campgrounds". (Why is it always "early"?) That document is extremely flimsy for demonstrating due weight. It's a single paragraph of a lesson plan which mentions the issue as a "myth" but doesn't actually answer the accusation. The document barely even addressed this issue, which is a very strong sign that it's being abused for this section. Responding to a criticism before that criticism is explained is good for press releases and lesson plans, but not for encyclopedias.
- I know this seems like nit-picking, but these issues do matter to real, living people. Regardless of your intentions, this approach isn't neutral. Grayfell (talk) 22:38, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Grayfell: Hello, Grayfell. Thank you for endeavoring to enhance the article. I have performed additional edits to enhance the article, as detailed below.
- Your latest edits introduced numerous issues regarding synthesis of research. These included, but were not limited to, assertions about Seton that are not directly referenced by the source you cited. The article’s lead as introduced through your edits diluted the focus on the Order of the Arrow’s particular association with Native American cultures by providing a more general discussion of those of the BSA as a whole. As this article is about the OA in particular, and as the source you cited does not definitively say that the OA itself was influenced by the negative general trends you mentioned, the focus of this section should be on the OA itself, so I performed modifications in accordance with this. The Deloria source you cited contains numerous aspects regarding the OA’s direct association with Native American cultures that were not included in your round of edits, and as these are important contextual elements that were academically recorded, I added them into the article. As a result of my latest edits, the Deloria part of this section now directly focuses on his comments regarding the OA itself.
- I have restored aspects of my preferred phrasing for certain sentences that were in sufficient accordance with Wikipedia’s policies and that were changed without apparent necessity.
- There as well were some grammatical issues in your edits that I have corrected.
- To say that my edits were written strictly from an OA perspective, when I added NUMEROUS details about criticisms of the OA, is disingenuous. To say that the BSA sources are “relatively trivial” is your subjective opinion for which disagreement is abundant countrywide.
- I completely understood that “false balance” did not mean balance between our perspectives; and we both are on the same page about, as you said, there needing to be a “balance of reliable sources in accordance with due weight.” The edits we have performed have, in my opinion, collectively resulted in a work that is sufficient in this regard and far superior in comparison to how the article had been days ago. Thank you. PeaceandHonor (talk) 05:00, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
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"The OA as well has been criticized by Native American groups for being a group consisting of non-Native Americans using Native American imagery,[1] and giving the impression that they can in any way represent Native American people or cultural practices.[2]"
The issue here is that the sources cited do not back the assertions
- The source for "criticized by Native American groups for being a group consisting of non-Native Americans using Native American imagery" is a single "group" consisting of ONE member of a Native American group and another unnamed individual.
- The second half represents a book/reference in which the to OA is only tangentially mentioned, does not assert that the OA represents Native American people, and instead references a different, defunct organization: the Buckskin Men of America.
While I understand that the Boy Scouts have faced some criticism, nearly the entire posting on criticism revolves around a single event in Indiana in 2009. I feel that's probably giving too much emphasis on a single event.Buffs (talk) 18:59, 4 March 2019 (UTC) I should also add that most of the criticisms of the event are things that no longer occur. Buffs (talk) 19:02, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
References
- ^ Kader, Charles (August 25, 2015). "Boy Scouts Playing Indians". Indian Country Today. Retrieved November 2, 2017.
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
Deloria
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
- New phrasing and why it's problematic: "The Order of the Arrow has been cited as an example of non-Native Americans who, through their misappropriation and misuse of Native American imagery, spread misinformation and stereotypes about Native Americans."
- Neither cited article mentions "misappropriation", "misuse", or "misinformation". Such word choice is certainly synthesis and the sources given don't back up such a conclusion
- The mentions of "stereotype" in the first reference is used as a caution to the OA NOT to do it, not that they are actively participating in it. In the second is essentially in a widespread question about stereotypes of Native Americans and some efforts to marginalize them. There is then a break and a mention of the OA's beginnings & dress, but no mention that these are stereotypes or that they are even in reference to the stereotypes previously mentioned.
- It'd be best to simply remove the sentence. Buffs (talk) 19:36, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- New phrasing and why it's problematic: "The Order of the Arrow has been cited as an example of non-Native Americans who, through their misappropriation and misuse of Native American imagery, spread misinformation and stereotypes about Native Americans."
moved by Buffs (talk) as it isn't directly related to the above discussion on the content of cited sources
These activities are still occurring [1] [2] Indigenous girl (talk) 19:34, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- I do not disagree that they are wearing Native-American regalia to include facepaint, but that isn't the point of the phrases you reverted. What is mentioned there is religious dances and ethnic slurs. I emphasize SLURS because only ONE term mentioned is considered to be a slur/slight/offensive based on the given terminology: "squaw". I do not see any such words used on the sites you just gave nor the previous sources. Buffs (talk) 19:46, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Likewise, there is no need to mention the Author's name in the first sentence. Buffs (talk) 19:48, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
Related problems with the lead
In the lead, it mentions "Native Americans have criticized the OA's various symbols and 'rituals' as cultural appropriation based on non-Native stereotypes of American Indians.[7][8]". Of the two cited sources, one is a blog that fails WP:RS and the other is a broken link. That should either be reinforced or deleted. As a WP:GA, this article should be better. Buffs (talk) 19:54, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Responding to all of the above: Buffs, all this stuff is still happening. Hiding it or minimizing it isn't a good approach. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 20:11, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- The link I just added directly from BSA states that there have been criticism for a number of Nations. I'm wrangling children at the moment but will include the link in the lead.Indigenous girl (talk) 20:09, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'll fix the sourcing and add it to the lede; hang on. And Buffs, keep your points in one place, rather than starting multiple sections for each point. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 20:16, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- I have no objection adding that quote, but it should be done with care as to not make it misleading. They have stopped such events at Cub Scouting due to inconsistencies and inappropriate "freelancing", shall we say. Nor are they stating that Scouts are using disparaging terms. They are not stopping all ceremonies. Buffs (talk) 20:22, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Let's add "often" to the mix. If it's so often, surely we can add a reference for it. From WP:WEASEL: "...views that are properly attributed to a reliable source may use similar expressions, if they accurately represent the opinions of the source." I don't see a source that shows "often" cited here. Accordingly, it should be removed. Buffs (talk) 20:28, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Ok, so this edit is exactly what I'm talking about as what is wrong. It still says the same thing, with the same unreliable sources, but you've just added another source that doesn't back up that claim! The statement includes "many complaints surrounding these ceremonies from various American Indian tribes due to the manner in which they are conducted as well as the inconsistent nature in which they are performed". It does NOT include anything about "cultural appropriation" or "stereotypes". You are extrapolating too much from the given information. Buffs (talk) 20:37, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'll fix the sourcing and add it to the lede; hang on. And Buffs, keep your points in one place, rather than starting multiple sections for each point. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 20:16, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
You tried to remove the sources that specify cultural appropriation. They've been reinstated, as the links were not dead, and more cites have been added. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 21:08, 4 March 2019 (UTC) Reading through the external link I just added, I realized that he does include citations. So, though it is first-person, it is sourced. I think this could also be used as a source, not just an external link. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 21:17, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- There's a reason I broke this conversation out. You're referring to some other edits that aren't in the lead. Without a break, it's hard to know what you're talking about when you are nonspecific.
- No where in the statement from OA/BSA does it mention cultural appropriation or stereotypes. If you think otherwise, please feel free to respond with where I'm missing it. Buffs (talk) 22:20, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Let's add in as well that the entire "protest" at MSU was TWO people...one of whom was the author of the article. Given the thousands of scouts involved and hundreds of tribes, this appears to be giving undue weight to their concerns by placing it so prominently in the lead with evidence of a single article in a school paper and a single "protest" by TWO people. While some "felt" it was "cultural appropriation", most do not or are at least ambivalent about it (judging from the "protest of two") Lastly, these articles are advocacy pieces by political organizations about the SAME event. Putting it in the lead is adding WAY too much weight to the proportion of those who "object". Buffs (talk) 22:33, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Re:"the links were not dead". Yes they were. They defaulted to the main page of the site. YOU fixed the URL. Please don't say things that aren't true. Buffs (talk) 22:36, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
The site says there have been too many complaints, so they're not going to imitate Native regalia anymore. The meaning (misappropriation and misrepresentation as the reason) is clear, especially with the surrounding sources. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 23:20, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- That's your interpretation, not what has been stated. This is a violation of WP:NOR, a policy that we need to adhere to: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." Buffs (talk) 16:11, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- You are also reaching a conclusion that isn't stated when you said, "they're not going to imitate Native regalia anymore". That isn't what they said. Buffs (talk) 16:12, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Removed Content Senior paper & Keene
I've removed the senior paper content as it is not considered to be a reliable source (Any senior can write a paper and there is no peer review/publishing criteria; it's possible that this paper got an F) . The current sources are sufficient for the stated content. Buffs (talk) 16:50, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Keene's isn't a reliable source either as it is self-published. Buffs (talk) 18:14, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- Adrienne Keene is a notable expert in the field and Native Appropriations is her official site. It is often used as a source on these matters. She is the exact example that is the exception to that rule. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 18:38, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm noting a LOT a vague terminology here ("in the field", "often used", "these matters") and no explanation as to how it is "the exception to that rule" (which rule?). WP:RS states "Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts or with no editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, that are promotional in nature, or that rely heavily on...personal opinions. Questionable sources are generally unsuitable for citing contentious claims about third parties, which includes claims against institutions..."
- If you believe this should be an exception, it's incumbent upon you to explain how/why. Buffs (talk) 19:10, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- Dr. Keene is a professor at Brown who is a highly respected scholar and well sought out speaker on the subject of stereotyping, cultural appropriation and racism regarding Indigenous Peoples in past and contemporary culture. http://convention.myacpa.org/houston2018/adrienne-keene/ https://www.speakoutnow.org/speaker/keene-adrienne Would you like additional links? I don't want to provide them if you're not going to read them or only skim. Indigenous girl (talk) 19:26, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not saying she isn't a professor, a respected scholar, or a sought-out speaker on any subject. I'm not even saying she is wrong (or right)! I'm not even contesting she's notable enough for her own article. I'm contesting that her opinions are just that: opinions. They are NOT reliable sources in and of themselves as defined by Wikipedia. If we are going to make an exception, we need to justify why we shouldn't follow the criteria of WP:RS for inclusion. Buffs (talk) 19:41, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- If "Keene is one of the most-cited authors in the field", then it should be easy to find an article from a reliable source to support these claims. Buffs (talk) 20:00, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- Dr. Keene is a professor at Brown who is a highly respected scholar and well sought out speaker on the subject of stereotyping, cultural appropriation and racism regarding Indigenous Peoples in past and contemporary culture. http://convention.myacpa.org/houston2018/adrienne-keene/ https://www.speakoutnow.org/speaker/keene-adrienne Would you like additional links? I don't want to provide them if you're not going to read them or only skim. Indigenous girl (talk) 19:26, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Where's all the third-party sourcing on this group, period? As I said below, most people think these groups have gone the way of other unfortunate, racist historic practices. Official sites by academics are usable, and certainly better than BSA sites speaking about themselves. Most of what's out there now is commentary about the racism. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 22:25, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Re-adding Deloria as a reference
Re: "The Order of the Arrow has been protested and criticized for engaging in cultural appropriation and spreading stereotypes of, and racism against, Native Americans.[7][57][53][58]"
CorbieVreccan, you've re-re-re-added several references
- #7 is literally the opinion of TWO people as quoted in an online advocacy piece from a highly biased site and fails WP:RS without qualifications (See above). It also qualifies as a WP:FRINGE opinion (just two people).
- #57 is an opinion piece in a blog that quotes the same article/people of #7. It does not mention "stereotypes" or "racism" and only mentions "appropriation" in regard to the letter to the editor referenced in the #7.
- #53 is Deloria's page 126. I'm not saying that somewhere in an entire book he isn't critical of the Order of the Arrow, however, I don't see such criticism on p126 as referenced. There is nothing about the OA and "stereotypes" or "racism" or "appropriation" and, therefore, doesn't belong here. If I'm missing it, please quote it. I've read it about a dozen times and I'm not seeing it. If it's elsewhere, tell me where and I'll personally re-craft the reference to be more specific/accurate.
- #58 is Keene's piece and that is addressed above. It is a violation of WP:RS for the aforementioned reasons.
I'm not interested in censorship. I recognize that there are differing opinions on this subject and criticism, but we also need to be mindful of the editorial standards of Wikipedia for inclusion. Buffs (talk) 19:20, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Source improvements
I think this piece would be better than #7. It's the opinion piece referenced and extrapolates much more on the criticism. Given that it's from a student newspaper with editorial controls/reliability, I'd say it's a viable piece and a significantly better option, though its inclusion could be challenged on the grounds that it is strictly an opinion piece. That could further be couched by simply stating this is his opinion. "The OA has been criticized for <X> and <Y>. In 2015, Philip Rice, a student at MSU, wrote..."
- Criticism here seems to be confined almost exclusively to academia and blogs, not mainstream journals and that's going to make WP:RS a tougher road to cross to show it isn't a fringe view. Buffs (talk) 20:10, 5 March 2019 (UTC)