Softlavender (talk | contribs) →Image placement problems: new section |
My very best wishes (talk | contribs) →Requested move 12 October 2018: while I do not see consensus to move, this would better be closed by an uninvolved admin, rather that by an active participant of the discussion |
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== Requested move 12 October 2018 == |
== Requested move 12 October 2018 == |
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|result = No move per [[WP:SNOW]] --[[User:TaivoLinguist|Taivo]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist|talk]]) 17:55, 19 October 2018 (UTC)}} |
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[[:Kiev]] → {{no redirect|Kyiv}} – Requested by the [[Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Ukraine)|ministry of foreign affairs of Ukraine]]... [https://www.kyivpost.com/multimedia/video/why-kyiv-not-kiev (per this reference)] "Kiev" is a [[Russification of Ukraine|russified]], colonial name of the original 1500-year old Ukrainian toponym. "Kyiv" is approved by the United Nations. The conferences on Standartization of geographic names. The UN group of experts on Geographical names. And most english media outlets not controlled by the Kremlin. [[User:Openlydialectic|Openlydialectic]] ([[User talk:Openlydialectic|talk]]) 06:46, 12 October 2018 (UTC) |
[[:Kiev]] → {{no redirect|Kyiv}} – Requested by the [[Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Ukraine)|ministry of foreign affairs of Ukraine]]... [https://www.kyivpost.com/multimedia/video/why-kyiv-not-kiev (per this reference)] "Kiev" is a [[Russification of Ukraine|russified]], colonial name of the original 1500-year old Ukrainian toponym. "Kyiv" is approved by the United Nations. The conferences on Standartization of geographic names. The UN group of experts on Geographical names. And most english media outlets not controlled by the Kremlin. [[User:Openlydialectic|Openlydialectic]] ([[User talk:Openlydialectic|talk]]) 06:46, 12 October 2018 (UTC) |
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::When a person openly states their position and provides some rationale, there is absolutely no problem with that. Your rationale was wrong, and your knowledge of the subject was incomplete, however, we all are amateurs here. You gave us a excellent opportunity to read more on that subject and share our opinions. You have absolutely no reason to apologize.--[[User:Paul Siebert|Paul Siebert]] ([[User talk:Paul Siebert|talk]]) 15:23, 15 October 2018 (UTC) |
::When a person openly states their position and provides some rationale, there is absolutely no problem with that. Your rationale was wrong, and your knowledge of the subject was incomplete, however, we all are amateurs here. You gave us a excellent opportunity to read more on that subject and share our opinions. You have absolutely no reason to apologize.--[[User:Paul Siebert|Paul Siebert]] ([[User talk:Paul Siebert|talk]]) 15:23, 15 October 2018 (UTC) |
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*{{replyto|Openlydialectic}} I genuinely respect your honesty here in admitting you got in wrong, particularly in the approach you took. We all mess up every so often. No harm done :) [[User:AusLondonder|AusLondonder]] ([[User talk:AusLondonder|talk]]) 17:36, 16 October 2018 (UTC) |
*{{replyto|Openlydialectic}} I genuinely respect your honesty here in admitting you got in wrong, particularly in the approach you took. We all mess up every so often. No harm done :) [[User:AusLondonder|AusLondonder]] ([[User talk:AusLondonder|talk]]) 17:36, 16 October 2018 (UTC) |
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==Way too early a close== |
==Way too early a close== |
Revision as of 17:14, 21 October 2018
Kyiv was a Geography and places good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||
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Current status: Former good article nominee |
This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Kiev. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131203020408/http://www.ucipr.kiev.ua/publications/electronic-bulletin-your-choice-2012-issue-4-batkivshchyna/lang/en to http://www.ucipr.kiev.ua/publications/electronic-bulletin-your-choice-2012-issue-4-batkivshchyna/lang/en
- Corrected formatting/usage for http://archive.is/20120530043944/https%3A//tspace.library.utoronto.ca/citd/RussianHeritage/4.PEAS/4.L/12.III.5.html
- Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.jpeopleworld.com/index.php?dir=site&page=country&subj_cs=4755
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Kiev in Ukrainian SSR
This text: From 1921 onwards Kiev was a city of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, which was proclaimed by the Red Army It is not quite true. Kiev was taken by the Red Army on June 12, 1920, and from that time the city was part of Soviet Ukraine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.132.80.239 (talk) 16:18, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Kiev is incorrect, please change to Kyiv this is really official name city in this time Kiev does not exist Ivanpetskovych (talk) 09:56, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 9 August 2018
Vladzymovin (talk) 15:03, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
- @Vladzymovin:, what change, specifically, do you want made? ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 16:06, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Kahastok talk 17:23, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
WTF is "most <...> pro-democracy region"?
As opposed to what? Are other regions pro-I don't know-totalitarism or something? And even if it is something outlandish like this, how this pro-democratiness was measured and why it is "most" expressed in Kiev? This all sounds like some flowery non-NPOV language. --Rowaa[SR13] (talk) 20:43, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
Requested move 12 October 2018
Kiev → Kyiv – Requested by the ministry of foreign affairs of Ukraine... (per this reference) "Kiev" is a russified, colonial name of the original 1500-year old Ukrainian toponym. "Kyiv" is approved by the United Nations. The conferences on Standartization of geographic names. The UN group of experts on Geographical names. And most english media outlets not controlled by the Kremlin. Openlydialectic (talk) 06:46, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
Survey
- Oppose. Most English media outlets are not controlled by the Kremlin. The evidence is still overwhelming that common English usage is still "Kiev". --Taivo (talk) 08:31, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose for the reasons in the 9 previous RMs at Talk:Kiev/naming. Iffy★Chat -- 08:51, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose - This was done a year ago with a snowball keep for Kiev. I see nothing from those discussions to warrant anything different this go around. Kiev is the common English spelling and what a foreign govt wants has no bearing here. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:56, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose also from me, the nominator apparently did not take the trouble to read previous discussions.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:03, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- A pretty new editor (June 2018) so they might not have realized and read all the nominations from before. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:07, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose per everything mentioned by everyone else. --Khajidha (talk) 09:18, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose, and next editor please WP:SNOW close Suggest a moratorium of 12 months till next attempt. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:42, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- Support. As more and more English-language publications use "Kyiv", the common transliteration in English is shifting, as it did with Peking, Bombay, and Calcutta, and various other city-name transliterations. See for instance Google Ngram: In English-language books, usage of "Kiev" has been steadily declining since 1960, and usage of "Kyiv" has been steadily increasing since 1990 [1]. Google Ngram only goes up to 2008 (an entire decade ago), and one may imagine that give these trajectories, and given the increasing desire of English-language authoritative reliable sources to conform transliterations to official and/or nationalistic standards (as with Peking and other Chinese cities, Bombay, and Calcutta), that "Kyiv" will eventually, and probably quite soon, become the English-language standard. See Google Scholar, which shows the continuation of the trend: For instance on Google Scholar, 2008-2009 Kyiv = 18,300 [2]; Kiev = 41,500: [3]. 2009-2010 Kyiv = 17,000 [4]; Kiev = 24,000 [5]. 2010-2011 Kyiv = 25,700 [6]; Kiev = 44,000 [7]. 2011-2012 Kyiv = 18,600 [8]; Kiev = 24,300 [9]. 2012-2013 Kyiv = 41,600 [10]; Kiev = 49,300 [11]. 2013-2014 Kyiv = 20,100 [12]; Kiev = 25,500 [13]. 2014-2015 Kyiv = 53,300 [14]; Kiev = 46,300 [15]. 2015-2016 Kyiv = 23,000 [16]; Kiev = 20,400 [17]. 2016-2017 Kyiv = 43,000 [18]; Kiev = 39,400 [19]. 2017-2018 Kyiv = 18,300 [20]; Kiev = 17,300 [21]. 2018-present Kyiv = 15,100 [22]; Kiev = 13,500 [23]. Therefore on Google Scholar, Kyiv has exceeded Kiev for the past 5 years. That's a very clear trajectory that matches and extends that of Google Ngram, which only goes up to 2008. It's very clear where the trajectory is headed; the fact that five years in a row Kyiv has exceeded Kiev is a clear indication that, as shown in the Google Ngram, Kyiv is soon going to overtake Kiev as the standard for reliable English-language sources. Softlavender (talk) 02:16, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- The only commment I'll make on this is that "shifting" is not "shifted". Wikipedia is reactive once there is clear and unambiguous evidence that common English usage has definitely changed. It is not proactive, pushing an agenda, whether that agenda is laudable or not. "Kyiv" may be becoming more common, but it has not yet supplanted "Kiev". --Taivo (talk) 02:59, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- It certainly has on Google Scholar. And it also has on GoogleBooks; for books published in the 21st century, "Kiev" gets 11 results (9 visible) [24], and "Kyiv" gets 14 results (13 visible) [25]. -- Softlavender (talk) 03:12, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- In most hits provided by google books, "Kyiv" is a mailing address. I am not sure that is an indication of a shift in English literture.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:22, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- And one of the most common problems cited in the literature with Ngram searches is that it skews toward scientific literature, not common English sources: [26]. For example, searching the New York Times from 1 Jan to 12 Oct of this year, there are 111 results for "Kiev" and only 5 results for "Kyiv". --Taivo (talk) 04:27, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- In most hits provided by google books, "Kyiv" is a mailing address. I am not sure that is an indication of a shift in English literture.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:22, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- It certainly has on Google Scholar. And it also has on GoogleBooks; for books published in the 21st century, "Kiev" gets 11 results (9 visible) [24], and "Kyiv" gets 14 results (13 visible) [25]. -- Softlavender (talk) 03:12, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- The only commment I'll make on this is that "shifting" is not "shifted". Wikipedia is reactive once there is clear and unambiguous evidence that common English usage has definitely changed. It is not proactive, pushing an agenda, whether that agenda is laudable or not. "Kyiv" may be becoming more common, but it has not yet supplanted "Kiev". --Taivo (talk) 02:59, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- Even if the situation were opposite, NYT does not set the rules of English language. These rules are pretty rigid, and we cannot change it according to present days political situation. Again, the name of the country where Kiev is a capital is Oukraeena (that is more correct phonetic name, but we do not care that in English this name is "Ukraine".--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:45, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- I'm sorry that I wasn't clear. I did not choose the New York Times because it was some sacred arbiter of English usage. I simply listed the NYT as a single example of a media source where the use of "Kiev" is overwhelming. I could have listed a dozen major English language news outlets that all use "Kiev" consistently (with "Kyiv" reserved only for "Kyiv Dynamo"). Those dozen media sources probably have more readers per day than the total readership over time of most of the books on Google Scholar or Google Books combined. That's why it's critical to consider mass media as one of the data points in any discussion of a name change. In this case, it's been demonstrated over and over, almost annually, that the majority of the largest news media outlets in the English-speaking world still use "Kiev" overwhelmingly. This includes major media sources on both sides of the Atlantic, such as the Guardian and the Economist. It's not just about how many data points scholars create for the 10 people who read their books, it's about how many millions of readers actually see "Kiev" every day in their reliable sources for news and information. --Taivo (talk) 09:01, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- The NYT usage is even more lopsided than those numbers would seem to indicate. The 5 uses are in only 4 articles and are all references to entities other than the city itself (Kyiv FREE Couch, Kyiv Post (twice), Kyiv Security Forum, Kyiv School of Economics). --Khajidha (talk) 19:12, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- PS: Only one of those 4 articles references the city itself. And it uses "Kiev" to do so. --Khajidha (talk) 19:16, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- I'm sorry that I wasn't clear. I did not choose the New York Times because it was some sacred arbiter of English usage. I simply listed the NYT as a single example of a media source where the use of "Kiev" is overwhelming. I could have listed a dozen major English language news outlets that all use "Kiev" consistently (with "Kyiv" reserved only for "Kyiv Dynamo"). Those dozen media sources probably have more readers per day than the total readership over time of most of the books on Google Scholar or Google Books combined. That's why it's critical to consider mass media as one of the data points in any discussion of a name change. In this case, it's been demonstrated over and over, almost annually, that the majority of the largest news media outlets in the English-speaking world still use "Kiev" overwhelmingly. This includes major media sources on both sides of the Atlantic, such as the Guardian and the Economist. It's not just about how many data points scholars create for the 10 people who read their books, it's about how many millions of readers actually see "Kiev" every day in their reliable sources for news and information. --Taivo (talk) 09:01, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- @PaulSiebert: In terms of the 13 visible "Kyiv" GoogleBook results from the 21st C (as opposed to only 9 visible of Kiev for the 21st C), 7 are in the titles of the books, and of the remaining 6 only one is a mailing address (the World Guide to Libraries), so the results are not "a mailing address". Softlavender (talk) 07:41, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, mailing addresses are among these hits, which make the search results not an adequate indicator. Anyway, 13 hits is too samll number to draw any conclusion about trends.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:08, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- Regarding recent scholar results, that is not an indication, because "Kiev" include the hits that refer to some prolific author whose last name is "Kiev". With regard to "Kyiv", most hits are the articles authored by people from this city: their mailing address include this name, hence the hits.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:49, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- As other editors have pointed out, the use of Scholar and Books here is misleading. It is picking up false positives such as mailing addresses and very specialist literature, not mainstream English-language sources. AusLondonder (talk) 06:15, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- Regarding recent scholar results, that is not an indication, because "Kiev" include the hits that refer to some prolific author whose last name is "Kiev". With regard to "Kyiv", most hits are the articles authored by people from this city: their mailing address include this name, hence the hits.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:49, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- @PaulSiebert: Do you realize that "'Kiev' include the hits that refer to some prolific author whose last name is 'Kiev'" is a rationale in favor of the use of "Kyiv"? Softlavender (talk) 07:50, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, that is what I mean. I also note that many "Kyiv" hits are because a modern mailing address is "Kyiv", not "Kiev". That makes both figures not a good indicator.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:08, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- Support per nomination and per superbly detailed !vote by Softlavender. Kiev → Kyiv is not a name change in the manner of Tsaritsyn → Stalingrad → Volgograd, but rather a transliteration adjustment comparable to Calcutta → Kolkata. Governments in the English-speaking world, guidebooks, online maps — the trajectory is inexorable and inevitable. Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:00, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- It may be inexorable, but it has not happened yet. User:Softlavender's numbers have been cherry-picked and, of course, do not reflect the full range of English-language usage. For example, among the major media markets in the English-speaking world, "Kiev" is still overwhelmingly the usage. And what is the average speaker of English more likely to encounter? A book on the history of St. Sophia's cathedral listed in Google Scholar, or the New York Times? And as was discussed earlier on Talk:Kiev/naming, "Kiev" is not a transliteration. It is still the common English name for Ukraine's capital city, just like "Warsaw" is the common English name for Poland's capital city. --Taivo (talk) 04:18, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- That is not our goal to predict a trajectory. Our goal is to reflect a current state of things.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:22, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose Our goal is not to anticipate future trends, but to reflect what majority sources say. In addition, I am not sure local name convention can affect the rules of English language. Thus, in Russian, the name of Russian capital is "Moskva", but its English name is "Moscow", Germans call themselves "Deutsch", but we still are calling them "Germans"; a self-name of Sweden is Sverige, but we use "Sweden". The English name of Kobenhavn is Copenhagen, and we do not care how do Danish people call it. In addition, the old historical name of Ukrainian capital is "Kiev", not "Kyiv", hence the name "Kievan Rus" (not Kyivan Rus. In Belorussian, Kiev is also "Kieu", which means in old Russian (the language all three modern Eastern Slav languages, Russian, Belorussian and Ukrainian originated from) the name of this city was "Kiev", and it is not a "russified, colonial name", but a historical name of this city. (Actually, an old historical name of the city was "Kyjev", which is in between a modern Russian "Kijev" and modern Ukrainian "Kyiv" names).
- Interestingly, München gives more hits in Google scholar than Munich, but nobody tried to rename the English article about this city. Guys, we are English Wikipedia, and we must obey the rules of English language.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:15, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose This is the latest disruptive instalment in a long-running push by special interests and a government to force global English-language usage to change. We don't act at the demand of dodgy Eastern European regimes. The rationale supporting the move is absolutely bogus. Kiev is not the "Russian" name for the city. It is the English name for the city. The Russian name is Киев, transliterated as Kiyev. Nom says that "Kyiv" is used by "most english media outlets not controlled by the Kremlin" - but failed to provide a shred of evidence for either the first assertion about usage or the second paranoid conspiracy theory that English-language media is controlled by the Kremlin. Support a 12-month moratorium on other move requests. AusLondonder (talk) 06:13, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- "The Russian name is Киев, transliterated as Kiyev." The Russian Киев is generally transliterated as "Kiev" (from which the traditional English spelling stems, and the pronunciation is similar), which is why Ukrainians and Ukrainian-speaking peoples do not like the use of "Kiev", which is Russian and does not look or sound like the Ukrainian-language word Київ (Kyiv [ˈkɪjiu̯] ). Softlavender (talk) 08:13, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- But regardless of how it is spelled, Kiev or Kyiv, in English it will likely always sound like Kiev when pronounced. I've seen several people spell it Kyiv but they still pronounce it as key-ev. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:31, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- No English speaker who isn't also a native speaker of Ukrainian pronounces Київ as [kɪjiu̯]. They pronounce it, at best, as [kiv] or [kiɪv] ("keev" or "kee-iv"). In other words, it's virtually identical in pronunciation to [kiɛv]. --Taivo (talk) 09:10, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- "Kolkata" is virtually identical in pronunciation to "Calcutta" and yet it is written "Kolkata". The pronunciation is immaterial as long as the Ukrainian capital's name is written in English as "Kyiv". Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 15:22, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- I'd hazard a guess that very few native English speakers (at least those without a severe hearing impairment) would consider /koʊlˈkɑːtə/ and /kælˈkʌtə/ to be "virtually identical". Kahastok talk 15:57, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- Once again, the matter of pronunciation is basically immaterial to the subject at hand. It varies widely across the entire English-speaking world with some pronouncing the city's name in the same manner that they had pronounced the familiar "Calcutta" (as in the Black Hole of Calcutta) and others aiming for "Kohl-kah-tah". The key point is the written form, "Kolkata". Some will pronounce "Mumbai" as they pronounced "Bombay" except with an "M", "Mombay" — others will aim for "Moom-bah-yee", but the English written form is "Mumbai". Some will pronounce "Kraków" the same as its outdated form, "Cracow", while others will try for "Krah-koov", but the modern written form is "Kraków" (or "Krakow"). The same with "Kyiv" — some will pronounce it in the same manner as the outdated Russian form, used in the dish Chicken Kiev (analogous to Peking duck), while others will try "Kih-yeev". The key point to emphasize is that the written form is "Kyiv". Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 18:54, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
- I'd hazard a guess that very few native English speakers (at least those without a severe hearing impairment) would consider /koʊlˈkɑːtə/ and /kælˈkʌtə/ to be "virtually identical". Kahastok talk 15:57, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- "Kolkata" is virtually identical in pronunciation to "Calcutta" and yet it is written "Kolkata". The pronunciation is immaterial as long as the Ukrainian capital's name is written in English as "Kyiv". Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 15:22, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- No English speaker who isn't also a native speaker of Ukrainian pronounces Київ as [kɪjiu̯]. They pronounce it, at best, as [kiv] or [kiɪv] ("keev" or "kee-iv"). In other words, it's virtually identical in pronunciation to [kiɛv]. --Taivo (talk) 09:10, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- But regardless of how it is spelled, Kiev or Kyiv, in English it will likely always sound like Kiev when pronounced. I've seen several people spell it Kyiv but they still pronounce it as key-ev. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:31, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- "The Russian name is Киев, transliterated as Kiyev." The Russian Киев is generally transliterated as "Kiev" (from which the traditional English spelling stems, and the pronunciation is similar), which is why Ukrainians and Ukrainian-speaking peoples do not like the use of "Kiev", which is Russian and does not look or sound like the Ukrainian-language word Київ (Kyiv [ˈkɪjiu̯] ). Softlavender (talk) 08:13, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose the English Wikipedia uses the common spelling in English, which is the current title. If usage of a different spelling increases, we can change it then. TonyBallioni (talk) 06:16, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- Comment Usage of Kiev as recently as today by the Irish Times and the Washington Post, but I assume nom will blithely dismiss these outlets as "Kremlin controlled". Much easier than actually putting forward a credible argument. AusLondonder (talk) 06:19, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose. The WP:COMMONNAME is still "Kiev" and the nom doesn't argue that it isn't. "Kiev" is not in this case a Russian name or a Ukrainian name, but the longstanding English name for the city. Kahastok talk 09:00, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose Lets keep the russian name, it is more used and easier to pronounce. Linhart (talk) 10:10, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- Support. WP:Common name does not apply here because this is the same name. We are talking about different transliterations of the same name. Relevant guideline is this. It tells only that we must "follow English-language usage". Right now there are two different commonly used transliterations in English (4 million for Kyiv in Google news is a lot). However, only one of these common English spellings corresponds to local spelling, and that is Kyiv. Therefore, I would support the renaming. My very best wishes (talk) 15:31, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- Of course WP:COMMONNAME applies here because "Kiev" and "Kyiv" are not the same name in English. Russian and Ukrainian do not count in this discussion. The only thing that counts here is English. And in English, they are different names, spelled differently. "Kiev" is, by far, the most commonly used name and the long-standing name in English (it's not a transliteration despite what some here are claiming). Ukrainians hope that "Kyiv" will replace "Kiev", but it's a very, very slow process at best and may never happen. As of right now, "Kiev" is the English name for Ukraine's capital city. --Taivo (talk) 03:36, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- No, I think it the same name in Russian, Ukrainian and English. This is just a different transliteration [of the same name], but it is very common (millions hits) and therefore I think can be used here per Wikipedia:Article_titles#Use_English as a common use in English more consistent with "local spelling" My very best wishes (talk) 17:33, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
- Kyiv is a transliteration of the Ukrainian name, but Kiev is not a transliteration of anything. Kiev is the accepted English spelling. Therefore, Kyiv and Kiev are not "different transliteration[s] [of the same name]]". And, again, WP:COMMONNAME says that we should use the most commonly used name in reliable English sources, not just a name that is commonly used. A name can be commonly used, but not be the WP:COMMONNAME if it is less commonly used than another. --Khajidha (talk) 17:43, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
- No, I think it the same name in Russian, Ukrainian and English. This is just a different transliteration [of the same name], but it is very common (millions hits) and therefore I think can be used here per Wikipedia:Article_titles#Use_English as a common use in English more consistent with "local spelling" My very best wishes (talk) 17:33, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
- Of course WP:COMMONNAME applies here because "Kiev" and "Kyiv" are not the same name in English. Russian and Ukrainian do not count in this discussion. The only thing that counts here is English. And in English, they are different names, spelled differently. "Kiev" is, by far, the most commonly used name and the long-standing name in English (it's not a transliteration despite what some here are claiming). Ukrainians hope that "Kyiv" will replace "Kiev", but it's a very, very slow process at best and may never happen. As of right now, "Kiev" is the English name for Ukraine's capital city. --Taivo (talk) 03:36, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. "Kiev" is by far the most common English spelling. Rreagan007 (talk) 03:04, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose: WP:COMMON name in the English language is "Kiev". The has not been a corresponding deprecation as what happened to "the Ukraine". The Kiev spelling is in common use in English-language sources. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:53, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose Pronunciation is irrelevant because this discussion is only about spelling, which has nothing at all to do with pronunciation. Various accepted English spellings are pronounced different ways and we do not change spellings to conforn to ideal pronunciation. "Kiev" is by far the most common English language spelling when discussing this city. Personally, off Wikipedia, I support the Ukrainian government against the Kremlin. And if English language usage actually shifts decisively to "Kyiv, then I will support a move at that time. But that time has not yet arrived. I do not care at all what the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine had to say about this matter, and neither should any other editor. They are not the arbiters of English language usage. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:16, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose We are clearly being trolled by the
Ukranian Foreign affairs ministryKyiv City State Administration. Suggest immediate close. ——SerialNumber54129 14:00, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- WP:AGF. It should be noted that the letter to the Wikimedia Foundation regarding Kiev → Kyiv requests was not sent by "the Ukranian Foreign affairs ministry", but by the Kyiv City State Administration. Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 06:24, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
- Many thanks for the information, Roman Spinner, I've clarified my remarks as a consequence. Cheers, ——SerialNumber54129 07:03, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
- WP:AGF. It should be noted that the letter to the Wikimedia Foundation regarding Kiev → Kyiv requests was not sent by "the Ukranian Foreign affairs ministry", but by the Kyiv City State Administration. Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 06:24, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose "Kiev" is still far more common.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:54, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- Support. "The evidence is still overwhelming (which "evidence"?) that common English usage is still "Kiev"." is a common Kremlin propaganda cliche. "english" usage is whatever place is called in a NATIVE language. Which is "Kyiv" in Ukrainian. --User:Did Nychypir (talk) 18:58, 16 October 2018 (CST)
- Oppose 'Kiev' is the true English name of the city, while 'Kyiv' is only transliteration of the Ukrainian name. To replace 'Kiev' with 'Kyiv' is like replacing 'Prague' with 'Praha' or 'Lisbon' with 'Lisboa'. Ukrainian government cannot do anything to change this.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 07:01, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose. No, it's the common English name of the city. It is not Russian. It is a name that has been used in English for countless years, just as Venice, Warsaw and Prague have been used in English for countless years. It is irrelevant what the Ukrainian government wants us to call it, just as it would be irrelevant what the British government wanted to call London. And I don't think media outlets like the BBC are controlled by the Kremlin! -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:40, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
- Venice or Prague support their English name and like it. Kyiv/Kiev more or less don't so - unfair comparison. Comments like "fork off stupid Ukrainian nationalists and their arrogant government, I don't care what is my country called in Ukrainian so they must shut up" does not help either. You can be against Kyiv, but use politeness and fair analogies. (Yes, the same for the other side). Surely there is some example of a case where an exception from WP:COMMONNAME was made - as a guidance for Kyiv supporters what angle to chose because IMHO otherwise Kyiv does not stand a chance is this lengthy discussion about Russian name/Ukrainian name/transliterated English name/official English name/common English name.Chrzwzcz (talk) 21:15, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
- Could you provide a diff for that quote please? I can't find it on the talk page.
- Venice or Prague support their English name and like it. Kyiv/Kiev more or less don't so - unfair comparison. Comments like "fork off stupid Ukrainian nationalists and their arrogant government, I don't care what is my country called in Ukrainian so they must shut up" does not help either. You can be against Kyiv, but use politeness and fair analogies. (Yes, the same for the other side). Surely there is some example of a case where an exception from WP:COMMONNAME was made - as a guidance for Kyiv supporters what angle to chose because IMHO otherwise Kyiv does not stand a chance is this lengthy discussion about Russian name/Ukrainian name/transliterated English name/official English name/common English name.Chrzwzcz (talk) 21:15, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
- The reason Kyiv "does not stand a chance" in this discussion is because the relevant policies and guidelines (including WP:COMMONNAME) clearly suggest that the article should be at Kiev. This is a perfectly valid conclusion and I don't see why we should be looking for loopholes or wheezes to get around it. Kahastok talk 21:36, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
- Not a quote, an example of comment similar to some of those posted here (a ~ compressed compilation ~ if you will). And I say WP:COMMONNAME is (surely) bypassed numerous times no matter what it "clearly suggests". And I guess there were some much less promising cases which made it. I can't be sure, I haven't seen all move requests (closer to none than all :)), but maybe someone would inform us fairly. Chrzwzcz (talk) 22:14, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
- While I am in favor of Kiev, what you said about WP:COMMONNAME is true. At wikipedia, just because something is commonly spelled one way, that doesn't mean consensus will follow. Tennis players are a good example. A player like Nikola Čačić has his name spelled Nikola Cacic in 99% of sources, but wikipedia consensus has banned the 99% spelling because of how he spells it in his home country. So consensus does not always land on the common way to spell something. Fyunck(click) (talk)
- Not a quote, an example of comment similar to some of those posted here (a ~ compressed compilation ~ if you will). And I say WP:COMMONNAME is (surely) bypassed numerous times no matter what it "clearly suggests". And I guess there were some much less promising cases which made it. I can't be sure, I haven't seen all move requests (closer to none than all :)), but maybe someone would inform us fairly. Chrzwzcz (talk) 22:14, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
- But whether the country likes it or not IS irrelevant. Just as irrelevant as their feelings about any other word in a foreign language. The arrogance is fully on the Ukrainian side in thinking that they can dictate another language's usages. And if exceptions to WP:COMMONNAME can be found, that would be good evidence that those exceptions should be done away with.--Khajidha (talk) 22:49, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
- When you use terms like "dictate", I can hardly think you are impartial and able to tell who's more arrogant :) Guardians of WP:COMMONNAME won't tell us when their precious rule was beaten and act like it is unbeatable ultimate rule which never fell. So Kyiv needs a supporter who's been on enwiki for some time and seen a lot of move requests with unexpected unthinkable results :) to make a case based on precedent.
- BTW: I am confident that Dnipropetrovsk Oblast will be renamed on enWiki like "minutes" after is is renamed by Ukrainian government to "Sicheslavsk Oblast". And nobody will say "arrogant Ukrainians won't tell us how to call this oblast in English" or use words like "dictate", Wiki will follow smoothly as Ukrainians "dictate". English can hardly act like it invented "Sicheslavsk Oblast" itself without direct influence of Ukrainian (yes, I personalized languages :)). In other words: of course Ukrainians can and shall make suggestions of "English" names of their cities, oblasts, state. They are allowed and welcome to create official English names of their places. Only Ukrainian government is in charge how their state is registered in UN (and there's several official languages incl. English). Yes yes, of course, Wiki does not necessarily follow official names! I am aware. Another bold conclusion? Kyiv is "official English name", Kiev is "common English name". There - I made it without mentions of transliteration or Russian :) Chrzwzcz (talk) 06:33, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Two differences between Kiev and Dnipropetrovsk Oblast: 1) the oblast is completely changing its name. To the average English speaker there is little to no difference in pronunciation between Kiev and Kyiv, so that change seems like an attempt to regulate spelling. It is much as if the Ukrainians were saying that the English word "fish" should be spelled "fysh". The greater the difference between the two forms of city or country names the more likely they are to change. 2) Kiev is spoken of much, much, much more frequently in English than that oblast.
- One slight modification to your official name vs common name point: English, as a whole, does not have "official" terminology. Various organizations with English as an official language have official terminologies. Therefore it would be more accurate to say that "Kyiv is the official English name at the UN" or that "Kyiv is the Ukrainian government's official English form of the city's name". Saying that "Kyiv is the official English name" implies that there is some regulatory body for English as a whole. There isn't. --Khajidha (talk) 09:56, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- So that "dictate" comments here applies only because of spelling? If they renamed completely (and give new English translation/version), no such comments as "you can't tell me how to call your city" would emerge? Yes, "official" as "official wherever English can make something officially, not language itself". Chrzwzcz (talk) 10:12, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- "Official wherever English can make something official", like where the New York Times (like many other news organizations) makes it their official policy to use "Kiev"? --Taivo (talk) 10:19, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- More like: official wherever someone can come and officially state his name and register himself. It would be sport organization or government agencies, then specialized literature... Not on places where several people come together and say "How will WE call him? Is it Nikola Čačić or Nikola Cacic? Let's go with Cacic". Kiev is common English name, Kyiv is official English name (based on my definition here), Kiev is "English newspaper name" :D Chrzwzcz (talk) 10:34, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- "Official wherever English can make something official", like where the New York Times (like many other news organizations) makes it their official policy to use "Kiev"? --Taivo (talk) 10:19, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- So that "dictate" comments here applies only because of spelling? If they renamed completely (and give new English translation/version), no such comments as "you can't tell me how to call your city" would emerge? Yes, "official" as "official wherever English can make something officially, not language itself". Chrzwzcz (talk) 10:12, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- The reason Kyiv "does not stand a chance" in this discussion is because the relevant policies and guidelines (including WP:COMMONNAME) clearly suggest that the article should be at Kiev. This is a perfectly valid conclusion and I don't see why we should be looking for loopholes or wheezes to get around it. Kahastok talk 21:36, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
- What does "official English name" mean? "Official" implies some formal procedure of approval, which makes usage ov this name mandatory (btw, "mandatory"... by whom?). Which organisation is responsible for official approval of English names?--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:23, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- "If they renamed completely (and give new English translation/version)"? MAYBE it would be easier to move, but even that isn't certain. As recently as 2012 there were posts at Talk:Gdańsk arguing to move that city to Danzig. The longstanding familiarity of the English name Kiev would still work against the change, just as during the history of the Soviet Union there were still many English sources that resented (if not outright ignored) the renaming of Saint Petersburg to Leningrad. And even the "give new English translation/version" would seem odd. Rename your cities in your language, let us figure out how to modify that for our language. Foreign place names may come into English as strict transliterations (or exact matches for the native form if it uses the Latin alphabet) , modified spellings that are obviously derived from the native form, or completely different forms from the native form. --Khajidha (talk) 11:45, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- It amazes me that English accepts "ń". Dnepropetrovsk was an ordeal too even though it was complete renaming (at least 'different enough') Wiki resented. And I think there were similar comments like here even though it was not strictly just about spelling.Chrzwzcz (talk) 12:05, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- I'm amazed that that diacritic is used there, too. Dnepropetrovsk changing to Dnipro suffered because it really didn't seem different enough. The "e" to "i" part was trivial and the dropping of "petrovsk" seemed a bit like using "San Fran" instead of "San Francisco". It just seemed like we were being asked to use a very colloquial nickname instead of a more encyclopedic name. --Khajidha (talk) 12:12, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- It amazes me that English accepts "ń". Dnepropetrovsk was an ordeal too even though it was complete renaming (at least 'different enough') Wiki resented. And I think there were similar comments like here even though it was not strictly just about spelling.Chrzwzcz (talk) 12:05, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Not exactly. "Dnetropetrovsk" is a Russian name build from the Russian "Dnepr" (Dnieper) an "o", which serves as a linkage in composite words, and "Petrovsk" (derived from the name of a Communist leater, Petrovsky). This is a standard mechanism of construction of composite Russian words, e.g. "Volgograd" is composed of the river's name (Volga, the last "a" removed), an "o" as a linkage, and "grad" (Church Slav equivalent of the Russian "gorod" i.e. "a city"), so literally "Volgograd" means the "City-upon-Volga".
- Going back to Dnepropetrovsk, its middle "o" is not a part of the river's name, but the linkage; literally it means "Petrovsk-upon-Dnepr", not "Petrovsk-upon-Dnipro". In Ukrainian, the city's name was "Dnipropetrovsk".
- As far as I know, Dnepr/Dnipro had never been a colloquial name of the city, because it coincides with the name of the river, which makes it very impractical. A recent renaming was dictated by purely political reasons, as a part of decommunisation of Ukrainian toponyms. Ironically, they could not return a city its historical name, because it was named after Ekaterina the Great, hence this odd renaming....--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:23, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- I didn't say it was a colloquial name in Ukrainian, I said it looked like a colloquial name in English. What it means in Ukrainian isn't important here. English speakers see this change as "oh, just drop the last half of the name". And such shortenings in English are rarely acceptable usage and never in an encyclopedic context. Quit thinking of these things in the native language and ask yourself how it appears in English. "Why just drop half the name?", "Why change the spelling when it's going to sound the same anyway?". This is the sort of reaction these things get. --Khajidha (talk) 17:34, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- As far as I know, Dnepr/Dnipro had never been a colloquial name of the city, because it coincides with the name of the river, which makes it very impractical. A recent renaming was dictated by purely political reasons, as a part of decommunisation of Ukrainian toponyms. Ironically, they could not return a city its historical name, because it was named after Ekaterina the Great, hence this odd renaming....--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:23, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Interesting. I didn't think about that. You are right, to an English reader, this politically motivated renaming looks like a colloquial shortening, which, by the way, is totally unnatural for Ukrainian to Russian speakers. Nevertheless, an English world should accept this renaming.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:02, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Hm "It just seemed like we were being asked to use a very colloquial nickname" - looks like in these talks it is not important how things actually are, but how editors perceive them, or what. And it just seem too wrong for me. Study it and then decide, don't tell us what's your personal take on the topic ;) Chrzwzcz (talk) 12:44, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- These factors also influence the general English usage. The collective "personal take" of English speakers worldwide is what controls English usage. It may all come down to the difference between regulated languages and unregulated ones. How each works seems totally nonsensical to anyone used to the other. --Khajidha (talk) 13:12, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Surely a lot of science fields have their own regulated official English terminology. Geography seems not be be the case OR common usage and Wiki do not care (or do not consider this article to be from 'scientific' geography field). Which is it or why is it? For example what does current English geography book (textbook) say about Kiev/Kyiv? Chrzwzcz (talk) 14:22, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- I don't know where you get the idea that there are "official" practices for fields of science or industries or any other entity in the United States. There aren't. If a particular science journal has a practice and asks me to change "Kiev" to "Kyiv" or vice versa, then I do it for that journal. The next journal might demand the opposite and I would change it to meet their private standards. There is no such thing as a single, unified voice that has any authority whatsoever over the field of "geography". Wikipedia's WP:COMMONNAME policy was built in the U.S. where there are no national requirements, no industry requirements, just usage. That is all that matters. And we continue to offer evidence that usage has not changed from "Kiev" to "Kyiv" in the English-speaking world. --Taivo (talk) 14:35, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Agree with what Taivo said. VERY little in the way of scientific terminology is regulated in English. Also: 1) geography is a "social science" and not a "natural science", the two are treated very differently in English language usage; 2) countries and capitals is a very low level geography concept, it is more like knowing the difference between "brown bear" and "polar bear" rather than Ursus arctos and Ursus maritimus; 3) the most recent introductory college text I have access to right now has Kiev (Kyiv) and covers Ukraine as part of a region known as "the Russian Domain" (ie: former Soviet Union minus the Baltics). It's also 12 years old. I'll look around for more recent editions or images from more recent ones. --Khajidha (talk) 14:42, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Just did a random image search for "Ukraine map" and checked the first 31 maps on search, these are the results: Kiev: 13, Kyiv: 5, Kyyiv: 1, Kyyiv (Kiev): 1, labelled in Ukrainian (only oblast, not city labelled): 1, not labelled (either partial map or country only): 7, map did not actually contain any Ukrainian territory: 1, could not access due to employer's web filter: 1--Khajidha (talk) 15:04, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- OK, thanks for the research. Kyiv is not even geography's winner. I guess pushing it through "correct terminology of scientific field 'geography'" would not be successful anyway, once again science would be beaten by overall usage in whatever source, not strictly geography or politics.Chrzwzcz (talk) 15:25, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- The names of countries and capitals aren't the scientific part of geography. The science of geography is more about human interactions with the environment and inter-group interactions (country vs country). Place naming is just naming. --Khajidha (talk) 15:33, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- About regulated scientific terminology: about the most "regulated" parts of science in English are 1) IUPAC naming, 2) SI units and prefixes, and 3) binomial nomenclature. Even there you have to deal with the litre/liter, metre/meter, gram/gramme split in SI and the aluminium/aluminum, caesium/cesium, sulfur/sulphur split in chemistry. --Khajidha (talk) 15:37, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- OK. What would you describe "Kyiv" to be? Its highest accomplishments in English language, highest rank, title... It is something more than "official UN name for the city" but far less than "common English name for city known as Kiev". Chrzwzcz (talk) 16:02, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- In the general run of English usage Kyiv is the "Ukrainian name for Kiev". It is used mostly in those sources that use the "native" names for foreign cities. --Khajidha (talk) 16:23, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- I think it deserves more than that. Basically you are saying it is no more than (senseless) mechanical transliteration. Chrzwzcz (talk) 16:31, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- The closest thing to a geographical name reference in the US is the Board of Geographical Names. As such, it only has authority over US government usage, but it is a good source of information. Here is the search page where you can type either Kiev or Kyiv and get to the same place. "Kiev" is the "conventional name", in other words, the English name, while "Kyiv" is the "approved name", in other words, the name that should be used by the government. But the characterization of "Kyiv" as "the Ukrainian name" is accurate. Whether you think it should be more or not, most English speakers think of "Kyiv" as little more than a mechanical transliteration of Ukrainian for Kiev. --Taivo (talk) 16:38, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- I don't understand what you mean by "deserves". You seem to be under the impression that there is some "one true name" for this city that must occur in all languages. Or something like that. Languages differ. Their names for the same thing, or even the same place, don't have to match.There doesn't have to be "reason" why they differ. They just do. And if language A matches language B but not language C, that is no reason for speakers of language C to be upset or try to change language A. --Khajidha (talk) 16:45, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- (ec)The quintessential Hungarian dish is gulyas, but in English it's "goulash". The quintessential Ukrainian soup is borsch, but in English it's "borscht". That's the way the world of language works. The borrowed and naturalized word is rarely identical to the original. Kiev is no different. --Taivo (talk) 16:48, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, you don't understand so the rest of the your comment deals with issues I never raised nor denied. Mechanical transliteration which "fooled" at least some institutions (in English speaking coutries) to start using it, right? "Approved name" seems fair, maybe more like "recommended to use" by the US government. And does the government follow this recommendation? ... Or maybe "alternative English name, not so common though", or is it too much? Chrzwzcz (talk) 17:31, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- I don't understand your post here. The "mechanical transliteration" didn't "fool" anyone into using it, individual institutions made their own decisions to use it. ""Approved name" seems fair" Approve by whom? Approved for use by whom? Each user (company, organization, etc) chooses for itself whether to use Kiev or Kyiv or Kyyiv or.... The US government doesn't recommend names for usage by anyone outside of its own agencies. US government agencies are expected to use Kyiv, but there is no expectation by the US government that the US populace as a whole will use it. Nor is there any government recommendation for the US population to use it. --Khajidha (talk) 17:46, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- There's never been any disagreement here about what the US Government uses--it's been "Kyiv" since shortly after independence. The issue for Wikipedia has always been common English usage, and that's still the BGN "Conventional name", "Kiev". The US Government has never issued "guidance" about English usage in any circumstance. There isn't even a government office that would issue such guidance--oversight of the language simply doesn't exist in the US in any form. --Taivo (talk) 17:53, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Right in that case Kyiv deserves more credit than that it is just some Ukrainian transliteration, and no one gives a ---. It does not mean it deserves to be the new article name, but it does not deserve treatment it was given here in the discussion by some. Chrzwzcz (talk) 18:01, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- But that's literally what we've been telling you. Kyiv IS just some Ukrainian transliteration and the English speaking world as a whole DOESN'T give a ----. The usage it gets in English is basically by sources that also use transliterations for other cities. --Khajidha (talk) 18:05, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Indeed. The US government doesn't use "Kyiv" for some greater good or general altruism. They use it because they have to negotiate and maintain good relations with Ukraine. So they are being nice to Ukraine, not trying to change usage among Americans. It is just "the Ukrainian name" in the sense that the US government needs to keep good relations with people who use "the Ukrainian name". --Taivo (talk) 18:18, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Conspiracy theories are piling up, first one which started this renaming process - about Kremlin controlled media pushing Kiev :) While US government is controlled/forced(blackmailed ;D) by Ukraine to use Kyiv in order to maintain good relationship. Both make sense even without proof :D Chrzwzcz (talk) 18:37, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- A claim that some government controls a large number of independent foreign mass-media look like a conspiracy theory. In contrast, a claim that some government decided to use a certain word as an official name of the city is hardly a conspiracy theory. It is quite plausible.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:49, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- "some government decided to use a certain word as an official name of the city" - hm, but this was not discussed here, you are missing the "forced to use to have good relationship". And I read that the Russians rigged US elections, so using Kiev in newspaper in comparison... totally plausible :D :D :D JK Chrzwzcz (talk) 19:08, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- No conspiracy and no blackmail and no control. The US government, as a matter of its own general policy, uses the city names that other governments ask it to. There was no indication anywhere in Taivo's comment of "force". --Khajidha (talk) 19:13, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- "some government decided to use a certain word as an official name of the city" - hm, but this was not discussed here, you are missing the "forced to use to have good relationship". And I read that the Russians rigged US elections, so using Kiev in newspaper in comparison... totally plausible :D :D :D JK Chrzwzcz (talk) 19:08, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- A claim that some government controls a large number of independent foreign mass-media look like a conspiracy theory. In contrast, a claim that some government decided to use a certain word as an official name of the city is hardly a conspiracy theory. It is quite plausible.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:49, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Strange, so Kiev happens to be coincidence to be similar to Russian, while it can't be coincidence that new/proposed English name would magically be the same as direct mechanical transliteration. Chrzwzcz (talk) 18:39, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- But that's literally what we've been telling you. Kyiv IS just some Ukrainian transliteration and the English speaking world as a whole DOESN'T give a ----. The usage it gets in English is basically by sources that also use transliterations for other cities. --Khajidha (talk) 18:05, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Right in that case Kyiv deserves more credit than that it is just some Ukrainian transliteration, and no one gives a ---. It does not mean it deserves to be the new article name, but it does not deserve treatment it was given here in the discussion by some. Chrzwzcz (talk) 18:01, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- There's never been any disagreement here about what the US Government uses--it's been "Kyiv" since shortly after independence. The issue for Wikipedia has always been common English usage, and that's still the BGN "Conventional name", "Kiev". The US Government has never issued "guidance" about English usage in any circumstance. There isn't even a government office that would issue such guidance--oversight of the language simply doesn't exist in the US in any form. --Taivo (talk) 17:53, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- I don't understand your post here. The "mechanical transliteration" didn't "fool" anyone into using it, individual institutions made their own decisions to use it. ""Approved name" seems fair" Approve by whom? Approved for use by whom? Each user (company, organization, etc) chooses for itself whether to use Kiev or Kyiv or Kyyiv or.... The US government doesn't recommend names for usage by anyone outside of its own agencies. US government agencies are expected to use Kyiv, but there is no expectation by the US government that the US populace as a whole will use it. Nor is there any government recommendation for the US population to use it. --Khajidha (talk) 17:46, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, you don't understand so the rest of the your comment deals with issues I never raised nor denied. Mechanical transliteration which "fooled" at least some institutions (in English speaking coutries) to start using it, right? "Approved name" seems fair, maybe more like "recommended to use" by the US government. And does the government follow this recommendation? ... Or maybe "alternative English name, not so common though", or is it too much? Chrzwzcz (talk) 17:31, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- (ec)The quintessential Hungarian dish is gulyas, but in English it's "goulash". The quintessential Ukrainian soup is borsch, but in English it's "borscht". That's the way the world of language works. The borrowed and naturalized word is rarely identical to the original. Kiev is no different. --Taivo (talk) 16:48, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- I think it deserves more than that. Basically you are saying it is no more than (senseless) mechanical transliteration. Chrzwzcz (talk) 16:31, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- In the general run of English usage Kyiv is the "Ukrainian name for Kiev". It is used mostly in those sources that use the "native" names for foreign cities. --Khajidha (talk) 16:23, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- OK. What would you describe "Kyiv" to be? Its highest accomplishments in English language, highest rank, title... It is something more than "official UN name for the city" but far less than "common English name for city known as Kiev". Chrzwzcz (talk) 16:02, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- OK, thanks for the research. Kyiv is not even geography's winner. I guess pushing it through "correct terminology of scientific field 'geography'" would not be successful anyway, once again science would be beaten by overall usage in whatever source, not strictly geography or politics.Chrzwzcz (talk) 15:25, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Just did a random image search for "Ukraine map" and checked the first 31 maps on search, these are the results: Kiev: 13, Kyiv: 5, Kyyiv: 1, Kyyiv (Kiev): 1, labelled in Ukrainian (only oblast, not city labelled): 1, not labelled (either partial map or country only): 7, map did not actually contain any Ukrainian territory: 1, could not access due to employer's web filter: 1--Khajidha (talk) 15:04, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Agree with what Taivo said. VERY little in the way of scientific terminology is regulated in English. Also: 1) geography is a "social science" and not a "natural science", the two are treated very differently in English language usage; 2) countries and capitals is a very low level geography concept, it is more like knowing the difference between "brown bear" and "polar bear" rather than Ursus arctos and Ursus maritimus; 3) the most recent introductory college text I have access to right now has Kiev (Kyiv) and covers Ukraine as part of a region known as "the Russian Domain" (ie: former Soviet Union minus the Baltics). It's also 12 years old. I'll look around for more recent editions or images from more recent ones. --Khajidha (talk) 14:42, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- I don't know where you get the idea that there are "official" practices for fields of science or industries or any other entity in the United States. There aren't. If a particular science journal has a practice and asks me to change "Kiev" to "Kyiv" or vice versa, then I do it for that journal. The next journal might demand the opposite and I would change it to meet their private standards. There is no such thing as a single, unified voice that has any authority whatsoever over the field of "geography". Wikipedia's WP:COMMONNAME policy was built in the U.S. where there are no national requirements, no industry requirements, just usage. That is all that matters. And we continue to offer evidence that usage has not changed from "Kiev" to "Kyiv" in the English-speaking world. --Taivo (talk) 14:35, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Surely a lot of science fields have their own regulated official English terminology. Geography seems not be be the case OR common usage and Wiki do not care (or do not consider this article to be from 'scientific' geography field). Which is it or why is it? For example what does current English geography book (textbook) say about Kiev/Kyiv? Chrzwzcz (talk) 14:22, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- These factors also influence the general English usage. The collective "personal take" of English speakers worldwide is what controls English usage. It may all come down to the difference between regulated languages and unregulated ones. How each works seems totally nonsensical to anyone used to the other. --Khajidha (talk) 13:12, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- "Kiev" is being in use for a very long time, so it is not clear if this orthography is a coincidence or not. In contrast, "Kyiv" (I mean a Latin transcription) is relatively new, so it is obvious that it is a transliteration of the Ukrainian word.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:49, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- So? Can't common and transliterated name be the same? Are you absolutely certain that those who use it use it because of transliteration rule, not because they simply think that IS new English name for the city? Chrzwzcz (talk) 19:08, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- No one claimed that it was a coincidence. What was said was: 1) it was derived from Russian (or possibly an older ancestral language for Ukrainian), 2) its long usage renders it no longer a transliteration, and 3) the similarity (whatever the reason) is not a reason to change English usage. You continue to fail to provide a reason for the change. Without a clear benefit to the English speaking world, there is no reason to change and inertia means it stays the same. --Khajidha (talk) 19:13, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Many books that I have seen Kyiv in either A) have statements to the effect that city names are consistently Romanized/transliterated or B) demonstrate such by also using Moskva, Roma, Beograd, etc. --Khajidha (talk) 19:16, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Maybe 2) happened for Kyiv already too, not considered to be transliteration, just plain English name. "continue to fail" - well no rushing. First I wanted to establish what Kyiv already IS. "Foreign name used by US government" seems to be the highest 'honor' you will agree on or maybe we can add a little bit. Far from common name of course. The next is - was it ever good enough to make an exception and go with "Foreign name used by US government" instead of common name? If so, Kyiv has a shot. Otherwise, we wait a year... Kyiv in consistently romanized books is disqualified, of course, and it is important to check this. Chrzwzcz (talk) 19:34, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- In English language usage doing something because the government does it doesn't even occur to most people. It seems very strange and would probably be resented. A lot of writing guidelines explicitly say not to write like the government. --Khajidha (talk) 21:04, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- So? Can't common and transliterated name be the same? Are you absolutely certain that those who use it use it because of transliteration rule, not because they simply think that IS new English name for the city? Chrzwzcz (talk) 19:08, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- "Kiev" is being in use for a very long time, so it is not clear if this orthography is a coincidence or not. In contrast, "Kyiv" (I mean a Latin transcription) is relatively new, so it is obvious that it is a transliteration of the Ukrainian word.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:49, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
That is not even remotely close to that case. Denali is a different name. "Kiev", "Kyiv" and "Kiyev" are three different versions of the same name in three different languages. The fact that there is a direct correspondence between Latin and Cyrillic letters in Kiev - Киев means nothing: when an English speaker says "Kiev", it sounds quite differently from the Russian "Киев".
Actually, Ukrainian nationalists and their supporters show an astonishing narrow-mindedness: the very fact that the name of their capital is written in English differently than the name in their own language is a demonstration that this name has a long history, and that it is connected to a history of the rest of Europe very tightly. That makes Kiev a member of a noble club of other important cities like Prague/Praha, Lissabon/Lisboa, Rome/Roma, Moscow/Moskva, Warsaw/Warszawa etc. The very fact that English resists to any attempt to change Kiev's orthography is an indicator that the name of Ukrainian capital is an important and integral part of European culture. IMO, Ukrainians should be proud of that.--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:34, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
- My point there was that it was a change in US government usage that has spread beyond government use. I completely agree with your point about the "same name" in different languages.--Khajidha (talk) 00:46, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
- It can work the other way too. The US Gov't uses "Burma", but the common name and wikipedia title has changed to Myanmar. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:37, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
- Describing those who support "Kyiv" and oppose "Kiev" as "Ukrainian nationalists and their supporters [who] show an astonishing narrow-mindedness" completely misunderstands and mischaracterizes the nature of the debate. To further state that "Ukrainians should be proud of that" [their capital is referenced in the English-speaking world by its Russian name at a time when their country is under threat from Russia] displays even further lack of understanding. Examples such as Lisbon/Lisboa (rather than the above Lissabon/Lisboa) are not at all analogous.
- If one were searching for analogous city names, it would be the former English exonyms "Breslau", "Danzig" and "Konigsberg" for the Polish cities Wrocław and Gdańsk and the Russian city of Kaliningrad, with a revised form of the above bolded statement, to the effect that "Poles and Russians should be proud of the very fact that English resists to any attempt to change Breslau's, Danzig's and Konigsberg's orthography is an indicator that the names of Polish and Russian cities are an important and integral part of European culture". Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 08:10, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
- It can work the other way too. The US Gov't uses "Burma", but the common name and wikipedia title has changed to Myanmar. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:37, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
- Please, do not twist my words. I wrote that the Ukrainians should be proud of the fact that the English name of their capital shows low volatility, which means this word is deeply connected to the culture and history of Europe. I didn't write they should be proud because it "is referenced in the English-speaking world by its Russian name". And, by the way, a Russian name of the city is "Kiyev", not "Kiev".
- By writing "...at a time when their country is under threat from Russia," you bring a totally new perspective to this dispute. You actually claim that (i) the primary reason for renaming is the political one, and, (ii) by doing that, we Wikipedians demonstrate our support to the Ukrainian speaking community of Ukraine. I am not sure this approach is valid. You yourself proposed the analogy with Germans, so let's imagine a situation when Switzerland, that was under threat from Nazi Germany during WWII, decided to ban all German style toponyms, and, in general, to show disrespect to its German speaking compatriots. Would it make that country more protected of more vulnerable? I think, the answer is obvious.
- With regard to the rest, these examples are irrelevant: Konogsberg-Kaliningrad was renaming. Danzig became Gdansk and Breslau became Wroclaw as a result of the transfer of those cities from one state to another, and, importantly, after the change of the ethnic composition of its population (they were the cities with a significant German population, which was deported after the WWII). And, by the way, the transfer of those cities from defeated Nazi Germany is an exceptional case in the history of modern Europe, so I doubt it sets a precedent.
- In addition, both Gdansk and Wroclaw are old historical names. In contrast, I am not aware of any old documents where the name of Kiev is recorded as "Kyiv", because in Old Russian (a.k.a. Old East Slav) this name sounded differently.
- To summarise, your examples are totally artificial and prove nothing. I sincerely don't any reason of this dispute besides the desire of some Ukrainian nationalists to make "Kiev" as much different from Russian "Киев" as possible. Why the Poles are comfortable with "Warsaw", Czechs - with "Prague", Italians - with "Rome", Portuguese - with "Lisbon", Russians - with "Moscow"? There is more difference between Prague and Praha than between Kiev and Kyiv, but Czechs do not care. Why?--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:24, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
- And what about Kiev/Kyiv - transfer from Soviet Union to Ukraine? :) Czechs: Maybe because Prague did not originate from German or Russian influence?! What Czechs didn't like - German name for their coutry (Name of the Czech Republic:) In German, the term applicable to the Czech part of Czechoslovakia used to be Tschechei, comparable to Slowakei for Slovakia. However, the usage of that term began to have negative connotations in connection with the Nazis, who used the term Rest-Tschechei "remaining Czechia" when they annexed the western parts of Czechoslovakia in early 1939. Since the restoration of Czechoslovakia and after the Second World War, the term Tschechien is in use instead, as suggested by the Czech Ministry of Foreign Affairs as well as German and Austrian linguists. Chrzwzcz (talk) 16:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
- To summarise, your examples are totally artificial and prove nothing. I sincerely don't any reason of this dispute besides the desire of some Ukrainian nationalists to make "Kiev" as much different from Russian "Киев" as possible. Why the Poles are comfortable with "Warsaw", Czechs - with "Prague", Italians - with "Rome", Portuguese - with "Lisbon", Russians - with "Moscow"? There is more difference between Prague and Praha than between Kiev and Kyiv, but Czechs do not care. Why?--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:24, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
- Actually, Ukrainian, along with Russian, was an official language in Ukraine during Soviet times, so I am not sure how could that affect it.
- Your analogy with Nazi is irrelevant and a little bit insulting, because it implies Ukrainians were in the same situation in the USSR as Czechs were in Nazi Germany. To demonstrate that that was not the case, let me give you just two examples: both Khruschev and Brezhnev had more dense ties with Ukraine that with Russia (Khruschev, for example, loved a Ukrainian vyshyvanka), and a part of Russian territory (Krimea) was transferred to Ukraine during Soviet times. It is hard to believe that would be possible, had Ukraine and Ukrainians been treated in the same way in the USSR as Czechs were treated in the Third Reich. Therefore, all these analogies are moot and non-productive, especially, taking into account that the name "Prague" is not of German origin (in German, it is "Prag"). --Paul Siebert (talk) 17:31, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
- Snow Oppose per each and every one above - Future requests should be immediately snow closed. –Davey2010Talk 20:03, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
- Tomorrow will be one week and I agree that it's beginning to look much like a blizzard. After 7 days I would agree to closing this landslide, but we can't make all future requests instant closures. It was a year since the last landslide and a year from now (a reasonable time period) another attempt could be made. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:09, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
- Apologies Fyunck(click) I should've certainly been clearer - I meant requested moves should be done every few years - Whilst once a year is technically fine I feel constantly redoing this once a year is disruptive whereas things tend to change over a year so maybe revisiting this in 2020 is better than 2019, Anyway thanks for your reply, –Davey2010Talk 21:46, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
- Shall we close this? My shoes are getting wet in all this snow. (I would do it myself, but I don't know how.) --Taivo (talk) 17:41, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Extended discussion
WP:Common name does not apply here because this is the same name. We are talking about different transliterations of the same name. Relevant guideline is this. It tells only that we must "follow English-language usage". Right now there are two different commonly used transliterations in English (4 million for Kyiv in Google news is a lot). However, only one of these common English spellings corresponds to local spelling, and that is Kyiv. My very best wishes (talk) 15:31, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- "Kiev" is not a transliteration any more than "Prague" or "Moscow" are. It is the name of Ukraine's capital in English. And when you start to use raw numbers for the occurrence of "Kyiv" in Google anything, you must find a way to separate "Kyiv Post" and "Kyiv Dynamo", which alone account for a disproportionately large number of hits, as well as city addresses that include "Kyiv" and other proper names that are not part of the actual usage in prose text. This is a classic example that is more common than not: The article about soccer (football) uses "Kiev" throughout dozens of times, but then lists "Kyiv" once as the proper name of a business there and once as the name of "Kyiv Post" (an English-language Ukrainian media outlet). That page should not be counted as a "Kyiv" usage. I don't believe that "4 million hits" in Google News without a corroborating link and a comparison to "Kiev" and a relevant time frame. I seriously doubt that most of that usage is in English. But this is a fundamental misunderstanding--"Kiev" is not a transliteration. That's just a simplistic notion. "Kiev" is the English name on a par with "Warsaw", "Rome", and "Moscow"--they're English, not direct forms of the native name and not transliterations anymore (all of them began as direct forms and/or transliterations, of course, but no English speaker transliterates when he/she writes "Moscow" or "Kiev"). --Taivo (talk) 15:58, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- Are you saying that the difference between "Kiev" and "Kyiv" is not transliteration? Is not it the same name? I think it is. Yes, it was 4 million hits (Kyiv) versus 8 million hits (for Kiev) in Google news. A disclosure: I am not a native English speaker. My very best wishes (talk) 16:09, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- No, "Kiev" is not a transliteration from Russian. Transliteration from Russian is "Kiyev". Period. 37.151.19.210 (talk) 08:56, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
- "Kiyev" is a phonetic transcription. "Transliteration" means transformation from one alphabet to another (ignoring phonetics). English "Kiev" looks like transliteration of Russian "Kiev". It is not clear if that is just a coincidence or not, but the English word "Kiev" looks exactly the same as transliterated Russian word.
- It is not a reason to change it, however.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:40, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
- Compare: Orekhovo-Zuyevo (Russian: Орехово-Зуево). Dedicated Russian "е" is transmitted to English as "ye". Like the initial "Е" in the name "Yekaterinburg" ("Екатеринбург"). Is this transliteration or transcription? 37.151.19.210 (talk) 05:05, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
- No, "Kiev" is not a transliteration from Russian. Transliteration from Russian is "Kiyev". Period. 37.151.19.210 (talk) 08:56, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
- Are you saying that the difference between "Kiev" and "Kyiv" is not transliteration? Is not it the same name? I think it is. Yes, it was 4 million hits (Kyiv) versus 8 million hits (for Kiev) in Google news. A disclosure: I am not a native English speaker. My very best wishes (talk) 16:09, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- English "Kiev" is a transliteration of an Old Russian (or Old East Slav) "Kiev". The modern Russian word "Kiev", as well as the modern Ukrainian word "Kyiv" are different words that sound differently. The only problem that cause violent nationalistic reaction is that the English word coincides with Russian transliteration. I am pretty sure if the English word were, e.g., "Keev", Ukrainian nationalists had no problems with that.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:19, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- "Kiev" is not a transliteration any more than "Prague" or "Moscow" are. It is the name of Ukraine's capital in English. And when you start to use raw numbers for the occurrence of "Kyiv" in Google anything, you must find a way to separate "Kyiv Post" and "Kyiv Dynamo", which alone account for a disproportionately large number of hits, as well as city addresses that include "Kyiv" and other proper names that are not part of the actual usage in prose text. This is a classic example that is more common than not: The article about soccer (football) uses "Kiev" throughout dozens of times, but then lists "Kyiv" once as the proper name of a business there and once as the name of "Kyiv Post" (an English-language Ukrainian media outlet). That page should not be counted as a "Kyiv" usage. I don't believe that "4 million hits" in Google News without a corroborating link and a comparison to "Kiev" and a relevant time frame. I seriously doubt that most of that usage is in English. But this is a fundamental misunderstanding--"Kiev" is not a transliteration. That's just a simplistic notion. "Kiev" is the English name on a par with "Warsaw", "Rome", and "Moscow"--they're English, not direct forms of the native name and not transliterations anymore (all of them began as direct forms and/or transliterations, of course, but no English speaker transliterates when he/she writes "Moscow" or "Kiev"). --Taivo (talk) 15:58, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- You are confusing "transliteration" with the establishment of a name in English. Once a name is established in the English language as a name, it ceases to be a transliteration. My first name is "John". A thousand years ago it was a transliteration from Hebrew. My first name is no longer a transliteration when used in English, it is English. The same thing is true of "Moscow". It was once a transliteration from some Slavic language, but it is no longer a transliteration. Several hundred years ago (I don't know how long), the name "Kiev" was transliterated from some local eastern Slavic dialect (depending on how long ago that was it is impossible to accurately call it "Ukrainian", at least "Modern Ukrainian"). Since then the spelling has been solidified as the English name of the city, not a recurring transliteration. Transliteration happens at the moment of use. Once a spelling is solidified in a language, it's not transliteration anymore. "Israel" is not a transliteration in English even though it once was. "Baghdad" and "Cairo" are not transliterations in English even though they once were. No. "Kiev" is not a transliteration, it is the modern name of Ukraine's capital in the English language. "Kyiv" is a transliteration from Modern Ukrainian. While it is being used more often (and 4 million hits versus 8 million hits for "Kiev" is not an argument for a change of this article's name), it is still just a minority of usage versus "Kiev". --Taivo (talk) 16:27, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- That may be a little bit off topic, but I doubt "Moscow" had ever been a transliteration. One of the names of the Great Duchy of Moscow (not a self-name) was "Moscovia"/"Moscowia", but it is more a medieval Latin name than a name in any conceivable Slavic language. Anyway, the toponyms in foreign languages have a long and complicated history, and would be senseless to change it in accordance to current political needs.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:33, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
- Are Michael and Mikhail the "same name"? "Kiev" is the longstanding standard English name. It is derived from a transliteration from Russian. However, current writers do not have to sit down and figure out letter by letter what the Cyrillic letters in the Russian name best correspond with in the Latin alphabet every time they use the name, so it is not currently a transliteration. "Kyiv" is the standard transliteration of the Ukrainian name for the city. It has some usage in English writing, but does not seem to have displaced the more established "Kiev" as the most frequent form. --Khajidha (talk) 16:33, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- @Khajidha. I agree with everything you say. Yes, "Kiev" is the longstanding standard English name, and it originally came from transliteration of Russian name. Yes, "Kyiv" is the standard transliteration of the Ukrainian name, and it did not displaced "Kiev" (yet) in English usage. Maybe it never will. But I only see that "Kyiv" (a name/a transliteration/whatever) is very commonly used in English and do not see any problem with using a common name that is simply more consistent with "local spelling". If I am in minority here, that's fine. My very best wishes (talk) 19:02, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- MVBW appears to be arguing based on a rule for cases where "there are too few reliable English-language sources to constitute an established usage". It is fanciful to suggest that this applies to Kiev. Kahastok talk 16:07, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- No, you misunderstood. My very best wishes (talk) 16:10, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- MVBW appears to be arguing based on a rule for cases where "there are too few reliable English-language sources to constitute an established usage". It is fanciful to suggest that this applies to Kiev. Kahastok talk 16:07, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- The idea that "Kyiv" and "Kiev" is the same word is incorrect. There is a confusion here: there are three different words, "Kyiv" (a Ukrainian word), "Kiev" (an English word), and "Kijev"/"Kiyev" (a Russian word; Russian "Киев" is transliterated as "Kiev"; it is a rare case when a transliterated Russian word coincides with an English word). That is a rare coincidence that a Russian word transliterated from Cyrillic to Latin looks exactly as the English word, although they are two different words that are pronounced differently.
- Another example is the word "Ukraine". It is an English word, because Ukrainian word is "Ukraina". Incidentally, the Russian word is exactly the same, "Ukraina". In this case, we also have a situation when two words in two languages (Ukrainian and Russian) coincide, but the third word (an English "Ukraine") is different. Interestingly, that causes no discomfort, and noone proposes to rename the "Ukraine" article.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:45, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- "The Ukraine", "The Gambia", "The Hague" - these are the rules of English language. I do not understand why all of that can insult anyone in clear mind.
- BTW, "Ukrainia" is an imitation of a Greek name, similar to "Rossia"/"Russia" (literally, "a land of Rus'/Ros"), "Francia" (a land of Franks), "Germania" (a land of Germans), etc. The problem is that, whereas Germans was some ethnic group, no ethnic group called "Ukres" ever existed... --Paul Siebert (talk) 17:02, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- Re "However, only one of these common English spellings corresponds to local spelling, and that is Kyiv." Actually, a local spelling is "Kiev", because this city is Russian speaking. More importantly, the argument that we have to stick with a local spelling works only when such a word does not exist in English. That looks odd: all names of important European cities have an old history of their usage in foreign languages. That means, their foreign names formed many centuries ago, and reflect a historical tradition. No Russian complains "Moskva" is called "Moscow" in English. Italians are quite comfortable with "Turin (they themselves call it "Torino"). I already provided other examples. In that situation, the idea to rename the article to a non-English "Kyiv" just because an English word "Kiev" coincides with a transcription of a Russian word is totally ridiculous.
- Just reiterate: Webster says: "Kiev" is a Ukrainian capital, and "Kyiv" is a Ukrainian version of the word "Kiev". It does not say "Kiev" is a Russian word, so by default it is assumed that "Kiev" is an English word, and "Kyiv" is a Ukrainian word. The Russian name of this city is not mentioned at all.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:00, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Actually, the article already puts all dots on i. It says:
- "Kiev (/ˈkiːɛf, -ɛv/ KEE-ef, -ev)[1] or Kyiv (Ukrainian: Київ, romanized: Kyiv [ˈkɪjiu̯] ; Russian: Киев, romanized: Kiyev [ˈkʲi(j)ɪf]; Old East Slavic: Кыѥвъ, romanized: Kyjev) is the capital and largest city of Ukraine, located in the north central part of the country on the Dnieper.(...) The early English spelling was derived from Old East Slavic form Kyjev (Cyrillic: Къıєвъ[22])."
It other words, it clearly discriminate four different words:
- An English word "Kiev"
- A Ukrainian word "Kyiv"
- A Russian word "Kiyev", which, by incidence, upon transliteration (which is not a phonetic transcription) gives English "Kiev"
- An ancient name of the city (which, pronounced as "Kyjev", and which was the source of a modern English word).
Therefore, the rationale of the proposed RM (""Kiev" is a russified, colonial name of the original 1500-year old Ukrainian toponym.") is totally misleading: the English word "Kiev" has no more relation to the modern Russian name than to old historical name of this city. Not only the nominator apparently did not take the trouble to read previous discussions, it seems he even didn't take a trouble to read the article itself.
Incidentally, taking into account that a standard epithet of Kiyjev (but not the modern "Kyiv") in old historical sources is "a mother of all Russian cities" (which is a literal translation of the Greek term "metropolia"), to call Kyjev/Kiev "a colonial name of the old Ukrainian name" is nonsense. In addition, there were no Ukrainian names 1500 years ago, because East Slav languages were separated on northern (Pskov-Novgorod) and southern (the rest of Kievan Rus') dialects. Russian, Belorussian and Ukrainian languages formed much later, after the word "Kiev" became an English word.
I propose either to close this RM as wrongly formulated, or to re-formulate and reopen it. --Paul Siebert (talk) 20:42, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- Things like RM's are rarely formulated perfectly and they are often done with bias on the creator. It's no big deal. The basic premise is still do we want Kiev or Kyiv, no matter what the creator said afterwards in the opening, and I think pretty much every editor realized that from looking at the responses. Let it run its course to a likely snowball close so we don't have to see it again for another year. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:17, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- There is a difference between an imperfect formulation (which is ok) and a wrong and misleading formulation.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:21, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- Peh, it's not the first RM with a premise has more holes than a sieve. Are we really supposed to believe that Kyiv is "the original 1500-year old Ukrainian toponym" when it relies on a romanisation system from 1996? And has it really been adopted by "most english media outlets not controlled by the Kremlin"? Well, the BBC says very clearly in its news style guide: "Kiev is our preference for the capital of Ukraine and not Kyiv or other variations." Oh, so the BBC is Kremlin-controlled now? Really?
- Reality is, it doesn't matter how you reformulate the RM, you'd expect it to reach the same result. There's a standard in WP:COMMONNAME that has to be met before we move, and it is clearly not met. Better to just let it run its course, and then let it close with yet another demonstration of the consensus against a move. Kahastok talk 21:24, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- Funnily enough, a small archipelago in the North Atlantic has little of interest to say in how people in Ukraine refer to their settlements; nothing other than the Jupiter-sized arrogance of the British would suggest otherwise. The people of Ukraine are the ultimate authorities on this matter, not the state broadcaster of another country on the opposite side of the continent from them (one wonders, how does RTBF refer to Kyiv? Does it even matter? But of course, the post-colonial arrogance of Western Europeans, the people who enslaved and brutalised half of this planet, will take many centuries to disperse). FWIW, neither the Latin nor the Cyrillic alphabet is "owned" by either the British or the Ukrainians. Perhaps some British Luddites would like to call Istanbul "Constantinople", or refer to Harare as "Salisbury"; some would like to refer to their body weights as XIV stones VII pounds, in line with the practices of centuries gone by; these preferences are commentaries on the egocentrism and pathological backwardness of the British, and little else.
- My own opinion is that a self-centred, inward-looking, increasingly isolated from the rest of human civilisation little island on which most people could not tell you what the Cyrillic alphabet is, much less spell "Київ" in it (Cyrillic or transliterated Latin, or whatever else, because most of these people realistically do not care about anything that does not feature in the pages of the Daily Mail), does not have much of interest to say on this topic. Archon 2488 (talk) 21:59, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
- Enough with the trolling attacks on the British. That is unhelpful and uncalled for in a discussion such as this. Goodness gracious. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:12, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- My own opinion is that a self-centred, inward-looking, increasingly isolated from the rest of human civilisation little island on which most people could not tell you what the Cyrillic alphabet is, much less spell "Київ" in it (Cyrillic or transliterated Latin, or whatever else, because most of these people realistically do not care about anything that does not feature in the pages of the Daily Mail), does not have much of interest to say on this topic. Archon 2488 (talk) 21:59, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Too many mistakes in a single post:
- 1. "a small archipelago in the North Atlantic has little of interest to say...." Actually, this article is written even not in British English, so this "small archipelago" has nothing to do with that. The English speaking world is huge, and, we are speaking on behalf of more than one billion speakers, including a whole educated Europe (continental), India, Canada, USA.
- 2. "The people of Ukraine are the ultimate authorities on this matter..." Not more that people of Russia are the ultimate authorities in the question of correct spelling of their own capital. "Moscow" has no relation to the real Russian name "Moskva", and poor Russians cannot do anything with that. And, incidentally, they even are not trying, probably because of their poorly developed sense of national pride :).
- 3. "Constantinople" is not a good example, because by no means it was a colonial name. I would say, "Istanbul" is more colonial.
- 4. We do not care what Cyrillic alphabet is, and, frankly speaking, we do not care how the city's name is currently pronounced. Historically, the ancestors of modern English speakers started to call this city "Kiev", this word is a part of an English language, in the same sense as the English word "Cologne" is used for the German city of Köln. Why don't poor Germans or Russian complain about this British imperialism?
- The answer is simple: if you want to insist on certain change in some language, make this language your own language. For example, German speaking states have a special council that make a coordinated decisions about German language. In contrast, Ukraine is not a part of an English speaking world. And it has no right to dictate us the rule of foreign language. These rules had formed before the Ukrainian nation formed, mostly based on Old Eastern Slavic pronunciation "Kyjev". Please, don't teach us the rules of English languages.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:23, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
- No one is telling Ukrainians how to refer to their settlements. This discussion is about how WE will refer to those settlements. And I find it disgusting that Ukrainians, whose language was subject to attempts to control or eradicate it, would feel that they can control another language.--Khajidha (talk) 22:07, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
- My point about the "small archipelago" was in relation to the BBC (who are, of course, an acknowledged world authority on all things Ukrainian or otherwise) having a definitive say on the appropriate transliteration of Ukrainian Cyrillic into Latin. To assert that the people of Ukraine are not entitled to decide what their country should be called is a degrading and neo-colonial attitude. Perhaps some "enlightened" Westerners could make the decision for them? Rhodesia, Bechuanaland, Nyasaland? Similar problems arise with "Ireland" (which is, absurdly, an English word), and Iran/Persia. The people of Iran requested that their country be referred to in English by that name, although the historical English usage is Persia. This had nothing to do with "dictating", merely respecting the wishes of people from another culture to have their civilisation referred to in a manner of their choice. The arrogance of the Anglophones in thinking that they "know better" than everyone else on the planet is a matter of historical record, which does not need to be described here.
- >Not more that [sic!] people of Russia are the ultimate authorities in the question of correct spelling of their own capital
- Who, then, is? The people of Uruguay? Do you at least grant non-English-speaking people some modicum of autonomy and respect in how their language is to be respected in our own?
- >Not more that [sic!] people of Russia are the ultimate authorities in the question of correct spelling of their own capital
- >"Constantinople" is not a good example
- "Constantinople" derives from the name of a (non-Greek) Emperor who made it the capital of his carbon-copy paste of the Roman Empire in Asia Minor. I do not understand how this is not colonial.
- >"Constantinople" is not a good example
- >We do not care what [sic] Cyrillic alphabet is
- This statement alone indicates that you are incompetent to expound on this topic, because you ultimately do not care about cultural differences; a common flaw in Anglophone society. Someone who cannot add two numbers together does not have anything useful to contribute to a discussion on machine learning. The entire point of this discussion is how correctly to transliterate the name of a city, which is properly spelled in the Ukrainian version of the Cyrillic alphabet, into the Latin alphabet. It is beyond absurd to say that you do not care what the Cyrillic alphabet is, since it is the cornerstone of this entire thread. FWIW I do try to pronounce the names of non-Anglophone cities correctly – I don't call Dieppe "Deep", Tampere "Tahm-perr", or Ypres "Wipers", for example. Archon 2488 (talk) 01:37, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- >We do not care what [sic] Cyrillic alphabet is
- I. People of Russia are ultimate authority in correct spelling of the name of their own capital in Cyrillic. Symmetrically, they, and only they can decide who the worl "London" should be transcribed to Cyrillic. As far as I know, the the word "London" is transcribed in Russian as "Лондон", although a phonetically correct spelling should be "Ландон". Do British people complain? The word "Paris" is transcribed as "Париж", although the correct spelling would be either "Париc", or even "Пари". Do French complain? They would look like idiots if they do, because neither Englishmen nor Frenchmen have a right to set the rules of Ukrainian or Russian spelling. Can you please explain me what kind of logic are you using to advocate a right of non-English speakers to set the rules of English language?
- II. You are writing something about "competence", however, your own competence in insufficient to understand teh difference between a transliteration of some foreign word and a spelling of an English word. The English word "Kiev" and a Ukrainian word "Kyiv", which is a transliteration of a Cyrillic "Киiв", are two different words: the former is a part of English vocabulary (in the same way as "London", "Cologne", "Moscow", "Copenhagen"), these words are English words that are English names of world capitals. The French word "Paris" is not a part of Ukrainian dictionary. However, they have a Ukrainian word "Париж" (pronounced in Ukrainian as "Paryzh"), and that is their natural right to call foreign cities as they find convenient. English speakers have absolutely the same right, and noone can deprive us of that right.
- Wikipedia has many drawbacks, but it is not censored and not politecorrect place, which is very good. Those who want to play these games are advised to go somewhere else.--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:16, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- Btw, Constantinople was a former Greek colony Bysantium. During those time, "colony" meant "a settlement", and that had no relation to any empire. Later, this territory became a capital of a Greek state, which was later enslaved by Ottomans. In other words, Istanbul is a name given by invaders, who created a a new empire. "Constantinople" was the name given by an autochtonic nation.--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:29, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- BTW, "Istanbul" is just the Turkish abbreviated pronunciation of "ConSTANtonoPLE". It's not a "new name". It's just the Turkish pronunciation of the old name "Constantine's City". --Taivo (talk) 03:32, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- "having a definitive say on the appropriate transliteration of Ukrainian Cyrillic into Latin" Here you betray your own lack of competence to participate in this discussion, as you completely misunderstand the nature of the word "Kiev". It is NOT a transliteration, it is the established English name. This entire discussion is about ENGLISH usage. If you want to know about English usage, why would you CARE what the Ukrainians or Russians (or Chinese, or Venezuelans, or.....) say. It's not their language. No one is disputing the Ukrainians right to name their own settlements in their own language, but that right does not extend to controlling what other nations call those settlements in other languages. --Khajidha (talk) 10:50, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- The notion that the government of Ukraine or Ukraine's legislature has been attempting to dictate or control how the name of the country's capital should appear in the English-speaking world is a severe mischaracterization.
- Almost all Europe-based English exonyms, such as Moscow, Warsaw, Prague, Bucharest, Belgrade or Rome are considered stable as well as uncontroversial and therefore there is no concerted push, either in the English-speaking world or in the countries in question, for English use of the native forms Moskva, Warszawa, Praha, București, Beograd or Roma. The local English-language newspapers, such The Moscow Times, The Warsaw Voice or The Prague Post as well as governmental, media or literary translations into English use the standard English exonyms for their capitals and for any other cities which have English exonyms and there is very little if any negative feedback regarding those decisions.
- Ukraine, however, has been an exception in that the English exonyms for its geographical locations (as well as the names of its people) were almost entirely transliterations of those names' Russian forms. The resulting dissatisfaction, as pointed out at Kiev#Name, "...has established the use of the spelling Kyiv in all official documents issued by the governmental authorities since October 1995". The capital's English-language paper, Kyiv Post, which was also established in October 1995, thus began publishing under the exonym that more-closely matches the Ukrainian pronunciation and is not a copy of the Russian pronunciation.
- In most non-English-speaking countries, various texts (government press releases, print media, literature, etc) are rendered into English by that country's government or private translators as well as by locally based writers who are native speakers of English or are sufficiently versed in English to write directly. At no point, however, was there a command or an authoritative order issued to entities in the English-speaking world to start using the form "Kyiv". All communications from Ukrainian officials, such as the letter to the Wikimedia Foundation (reproduced at Kiev#Name) have been polite requests to use "Kyiv" and were aimed at bringing "awareness and attention to the proper spelling of various Ukrainian cities, Kyiv in particular". In fact, had such letters of support for the form "Kyiv" not been sent, it could have left the implication that the capital city as well as Ukraine itself have no particular interest whether the English-speaking world uses "Kyiv" or "Kiev". Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 12:20, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- To even ask for such changes to be made is an inappropriate attempt to control another language. They can phrase it as prettily as they wish, but they don't have the right to ask it in the first place. So English exonyms for Ukrainian places comes from Russian, so what? They are the English exonyms. That is ALL that matters. As for the idea that not sending these letters would "impl[y] that the capital city as well as Ukraine itself have no particular interest whether the English-speaking world uses "Kyiv" or "Kiev"", such lack of interest would be the most rational response they could have. I neither know, nor care, nor even consider myself to have the right to care what Ukrainians call my country or its capital. It is, to put it as bluntly as possible, NONE OF MY GODDAMN BUSINESS. And I would consider it a horrendous waste of my country's time to bother with such and would consider it as making my country look like fools (which my country is easily able to do to itself without worrying about other people's words). --Khajidha (talk) 12:39, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- "having a definitive say on the appropriate transliteration of Ukrainian Cyrillic into Latin" Here you betray your own lack of competence to participate in this discussion, as you completely misunderstand the nature of the word "Kiev". It is NOT a transliteration, it is the established English name. This entire discussion is about ENGLISH usage. If you want to know about English usage, why would you CARE what the Ukrainians or Russians (or Chinese, or Venezuelans, or.....) say. It's not their language. No one is disputing the Ukrainians right to name their own settlements in their own language, but that right does not extend to controlling what other nations call those settlements in other languages. --Khajidha (talk) 10:50, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- BTW, "Istanbul" is just the Turkish abbreviated pronunciation of "ConSTANtonoPLE". It's not a "new name". It's just the Turkish pronunciation of the old name "Constantine's City". --Taivo (talk) 03:32, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- Btw, Constantinople was a former Greek colony Bysantium. During those time, "colony" meant "a settlement", and that had no relation to any empire. Later, this territory became a capital of a Greek state, which was later enslaved by Ottomans. In other words, Istanbul is a name given by invaders, who created a a new empire. "Constantinople" was the name given by an autochtonic nation.--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:29, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- Re "Ukraine, however, has been an exception in that the English exonyms for its geographical locations (as well as the names of its people) were almost entirely transliterations of those names' Russian forms." Not exactly. Historical translitareations are based no Old Russian ("Old Eastern Slav") name "Kijov", which is intermediate between modern Russian and modern Ukrainian. There had never been "y" in earlier transliteration in the English name of this city, and no "i" in the third position. Therefore, the pretext ("return to the old historical name") is false. In general, in last few years, Ukraine government made a lot of questionable steps, starting from honoring obvious war criminals and the Holocaust perpetrators as national heroes, and ending with forcible transliteration of the names of their Russian speaking compatriots in a Ukrainian manner (one my colleague happens to be from Ukraine, and he explained me that his real name is "Dmitry", but Ukrainian officials forcefully issued him a passport where his name is "Dmytro", and he feels very uncomfortable about that. Can you imagine a situation when you come to DMV and see that your actual name "John Smith" now is written as "Jan Schmidt", and there is no legal way to change it back?). I don't think we should be quickly accommodating all these initiatives.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:29, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- You seem to mix two different situations. (i) When your name is John Smith, and you were born in London, and you moved to Paris to became a permanent resident in France, it might me correct to change spelling of your name if you want to do so (or it might be not; At least, in the US nobody cares about that). (ii) you are a Ukrainian who was born in a bilingual Ukraine, your mother tong is Russian, and all your ancestors speak Russian (which is a typical situation, for example, in Kiev, which is a Russophonic city). However, authorities forcefully transliterate your name in a Ukrainian way, as if you were an immigrant in your own country. Do you see a difference? --Paul Siebert (talk) 15:35, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- No. Nobody in clear mind will claim "Jan" should be converted to "John" in English: these are two different names. Lev Tolstoy was complaining that some people write the name "Loivin" and "Levin" (in Russian, these names look like "Лёвин" and "Левин", a diacritic symbol over "e" converts is to "io", but it is frequently omitted). As a result, a main hero from the Anna Karenina novel, who was a Russian gentry, became a Jew ("Лёвин" is a Russian name, and "Левин" is Jewish).
- Ukrainian alphabet has all needed symbols for a Russian name "Дмитрий", and there are absolutely no reasons for not using this name. Unless you decide to ban certain names. Which is barbarism according to modern standards. No modern state can force their citizen to change their names.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:36, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- My wife is a Russian-speaking Ukrainian. With independence, all Russian speakers had to have their names Ukrainianized in official documents: My wife Irina became Iryna, my oldest step-daughter Ekaterina became Kateryna, etc. Yes, a modern state can force their citizens to change their names. But that's irrelevant to whether English speakers have to use Kyiv just because Ukraine wants them to. (My wife changed her name back to Irina when she got her US citizenship.) --Taivo (talk) 17:34, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
Actually, your case is not a good example, because Russian "Ирина" (Irina) sounds like "Iryna" when a Ukrainian speaker is reading it, because Russian "и" ("i") corresponds to Ukrainian "i", and Ukrainian "и" sounds more like "y" (which is the root of the current dispute). It is impossible to tell if the word "Ирина" is Ukrainian or Russian: a Russian speaker will read it as "Irina", a Ukrainian - as "Iryna". If your wife wanted her name to look like Russian, she just had to keep a standard Russian orthography. However, if your wife wanted her name to sound like "Irina" in Ukrainian, she should have to change it to "Ирiна". I personally don't know which variant I would prefer. However, the main point here is that it was up to your wife to decide how should her name look like. A government (if it is a modern democratic government) cannot decide that, especially if your wife was not an immigrant, but a native Ukrainian (or Ukrainian or Russian ethnicity, no matter).
By writing "No modern state can force their citizen to change their names" I meant "if some state consider itself modern, it cannot force its citizens to do so". That is a disrespect towards its citizens.
This question is relevant to the subject of our discussion, because it demonstrates that some initiatives of the current Ukrainian government are questionable, so we don't have to treat them all seriously.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:42, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- Her name was changed in all Ukrainian documents from Ирина to Ірина and that's the way that her passport reads (and, therefore, all her immigration documents to the US). Your long explanation was wrong. And your explanation ignored our daughter's name change from Ekaterina to Kateryna (both transliterated from Cyrillic, of course). Ukraine did, indeed, change the Russian names of its citizens (she was a "charter" Ukrainian citizen) to Ukrainian names. While you may not believe it, that's precisely what they did. I did not make this point in relation to the Kiev/Kyiv discussion, but simply to correct your error in understanding about what a "modern country" can and cannot do with the names of its citizens. --Taivo (talk) 18:22, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- Sure, you are right. I forgot about the first "И". With regard to "Katerina", it is also a local Russian name (remember a famous Schoatakovich's opera "Katerina Izmailova"? The events occur in a South Russian Mtsensk, and all names are Russian, not Ukrainian ones). Actually, the authorities forced you to change your daughter's name against your will. I think even a totalitarian Soviet regime didn't interfere in this aspect of people's private life. That is an additional argument in favor of resisting to any attempts of Ukrainian authorities to impose on us their vision of this subject.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:17, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
Politeness when addressing the world community in general and the English-speaking world in particular, should be always noted and taken into account and not mischaracterized with terms such as "diktat" or "demand". There may well have been criticisms when China and India presented their respective preferred English transliterations for Peking, Bombay, Calcutta or Madras and those requests may well have been characterized as demands, but China's and India's requests to revise the centuries-old English exonyms were accepted.
In the same manner, Ukrainian explanatory communiques serve to inform the English-speaking world that their use of "Kyiv" is not a typo and that Ukrainian entities consider "Kyiv", and not "Kiev", to be the English transliteration of their capital's name. The distinction is important since there is a considerable amount of English-language content emanating from Ukraine, primarily articles in the Kyiv Post as well as Ukrainian government announcements and various other English-Ukrainian sources.
FC Dynamo Kyiv, FC Arsenal Kyiv or FC Lokomotyv Kyiv may be presented as other examples, except that the clubs listed in Wikipedia represent an uneven mix of English exonyms and local names — FC Dynamo Moscow, Polonia Warsaw or Red Star Belgrade, but also Okęcie Warszawa, FK Hajduk Beograd or FC Dinamo București.
As for transliterations of Ukrainian given names as well as surnames, one example of a politically-charged requested move may be found at Talk:Oleg Sentsov#Requested move 21 October 2016 in which the entire lengthy discussion was over a single letter — "Oleg" → "Oleh". A currently active discussion is at Talk:Volodymir Hustov#Requested move 29 September 2018. Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 06:24, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
- India is a part of an English speaking world. Moreover, this country has the world largest English speaking population. Obviously, if they decide to change these names, that is supposed to have some consequences for English in general. By the way a "Bombay -> Mumbai" transition is actually a renaming: the former is a colonial name (probably, derived from Portuguese), the latter is a local name. That has no relationship to the situation we discuss.
- With regard to Peking, I don't know if that was a request from Chinese authorities or a natural shift. In any event, the change of transliteration was dictated by a significant difference in pronunciation of "Peking" and "Beijing". In the case of Ukrainian "Kyiv" and Russian "Kiyev", the difference is less than in the difference between Long Island and Yorkshire accents.
- With regard to Oleg/h Sentsov, he is a Ukrainian nationalist, and he persistently emphasize his ties with Ukraine. It would be logical and politically meaningful to pronounce and transcribe his name in a Ukrainian way.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:09, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
- "Ukrainian entities consider "Kyiv", and not "Kiev", to be the English transliteration of their capital's name" Which no one is denying. When transliterating from Ukrainian, the resulting city name is Kyiv. But since we are discussing the existing English name, no transliteration is involved. Thus, we use Kiev. Again, and again, and again we keep coming back to this inability to understand that the English name Kiev is not a transliteration. I don't know how to phrase this any clearer to get through to you or to the Ukrainian government. --Khajidha (talk) 17:14, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
References
Question for nom
Openlydialectic: In your rationale supporting your move request above you suggested that "most english media outlets not controlled by the Kremlin" are using Kyiv instead of Kiev. Given the overwhelming evidence that your assertion is false, and media such as the Washington Post and the Irish Times have not changed their usage, could you provide us with an approved list of media outlets not controlled by the Kremlin? AusLondonder (talk) 06:00, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- Or proof that any of these English media outlets are controlled by the Kremlin.--Khajidha (talk) 12:40, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- Hoc est simplicissimus: the ultimate proof that some media is controlled by Kremlin is the usage of the word "Kiev". That is a pretty obvious litmus test. :)--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:37, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- I apologise. To be entirely honest I was too emotional and now I am embarrassed to even participate in the discussion. I didn't even know there were so many nominations before me. Again, if that helps, I apologise. The current status quo is probably the correct one and I am now okay with closing this nomination if other people that support changing the name to Kyiv agree on closing it too. Openlydialectic (talk) 15:03, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- When a person openly states their position and provides some rationale, there is absolutely no problem with that. Your rationale was wrong, and your knowledge of the subject was incomplete, however, we all are amateurs here. You gave us a excellent opportunity to read more on that subject and share our opinions. You have absolutely no reason to apologize.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:23, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- @Openlydialectic: I genuinely respect your honesty here in admitting you got in wrong, particularly in the approach you took. We all mess up every so often. No harm done :) AusLondonder (talk) 17:36, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
Way too early a close
6–1 and opened for only 8 hours is way early for a snowball close in my opinion. Some editors wouldn't have ever seen that this rm ever happened. The closer is a non-admin, and it's supposed to be a little more obvious or run a week before they step in. I have informed the closer but there are times they don't edit for days or weeks, and it shouldn't be that long to re-open. This is for fairness as I've also been on the other side of these early closures. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:07, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- I have re-opened it. The move discussion should run for a full length and only be closed by an administrator. Softlavender (talk) 02:12, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- You are not right. Any uninvolved user can close it. The only problem is that it was closed prematurely.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:26, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- Exactly. If it runs for 3 days and is 50–2 I can totally understand a snow close. It could very well be a snow close anyway... I just want to make sure all is above board and fair. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:24, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- You are not right. Any uninvolved user can close it. The only problem is that it was closed prematurely.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:26, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
More about the city's name
Currently, the article says:
- "The form Kiev is based on Russian orthography and pronunciation [ˈkʲijɪf], during a time when Kiev was in the Russian Empire (from 1708, a seat of a governorate).[1]"
However, the reference provided as a source is the reference to an online dictionary, and it does not contain any information to support this statement. If a better source is not provided, I'll remove this unsourced statement.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:56, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
The statement
- "The British government has also started using Kyiv.[2] "
is a piece of original research. Actually, the document cited uses the word "Kyiv". The document says nothing about the position of the British government. This statement should be removed, or a source that supports the statement about the change of the position of the British government should be provided.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:02, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
Image placement problems
Right now, this article contains multiple violations of MOS:SANDWICH and WP:IMGLOC: "Avoid sandwiching text between two images that face each other, and between an image and an infobox or similar." Various images need to be moved, removed, moved the Gallery, resized, or etc., to resolve these problems. Softlavender (talk) 14:15, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
- ^ https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/kiev
- ^ GenocideUKraine – epetition response The National Archives, The official site of the Prime Minister's Office, Friday 31 July 2009