Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN) | ||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.
|
Case | Created | Last volunteer edit | Last modified | ||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Title | Status | User | Time | User | Time | User | Time |
Talk:Persecution of_Christians#Nazi_section | Resolved | Jenhawk777 (t) | 16 days, 3 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 21 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 21 hours |
The King: Eternal Monarch | Failed | CherryPie94 (t) | 12 days, 12 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 21 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 21 hours |
Jai Shri Ram | Closed | Parassharma1 (t) | 5 days, 5 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 4 days, 16 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 4 days, 16 hours |
Ideological bias_on_Wikipedia | Closed | Cwarrior (t) | 4 days, 8 hours | Nightenbelle (t) | 1 days, 11 hours | Nightenbelle (t) | 1 days, 11 hours |
Principal component analysis | New | AP295 (t) | 4 days, 6 hours | Nightenbelle (t) | 2 days, 10 hours | AP295 (t) | 10 hours |
Tesla, Inc. | New | Stonkaments (t) | 3 days, 1 hours | None | n/a | QRep2020 (t) | 21 minutes |
Richard Stallman | Closed | Daveout (t) | 2 days, 23 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 1 days, 10 hours | Daveout (t) | 1 days, 9 hours |
Armorial of Europe | New | Fenn-O-maniC (t) | 1 days, 21 hours | Nightenbelle (t) | 8 hours | Nightenbelle (t) | 8 hours |
Petfinder | Closed | TruthInAdverts (t) | 1 days, 20 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 1 days, 18 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 1 days, 18 hours |
Eugene Scalia | Closed | 2600:8800:6082:A200:A8FD:AC3B:6463:FFED (t) | 1 days, 18 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 1 days, 10 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 1 days, 10 hours |
List of My Hero Academia characters | Closed | Unnamed anon (t) | 1 days, 5 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 20 hours | Drmies (t) | 12 hours |
The Fat Controller | Closed | Mac Dreamstate (t) | 12 hours | Nightenbelle (t) | 8 hours | Nightenbelle (t) | 8 hours |
If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
Last updated by MDanielsBot (talk) at 01:00, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190 191, 192, 193, 194 |
This page is archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
Current disputes
Talk:Persecution of_Christians#Nazi_section
Closed discussion |
---|
Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:58, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Nightenbelle's Final StatementThen is sounds like we have reached a point where we are all on the same page. While Bonhoeffer does deserve recognition and a page of his on, he does not qualify to be highlighted specifically on this page. Do you guys think you can work on finding the inline sources and inserting them based on talk page discussion or do we need to continue the mediated discussion here for that? It sounds like everyone agrees they need to happen. Nightenbelle (talk) 14:27, 18 August 2020 (UTC) Editors' ResponsesJenhawk777We must remove the section that needs sourcing because our definition for inclusion requires persecution directly for faith and the German Christians were not persecuted--for any reason. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:20, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
Eighth Statement by Replacement ModeratorI am reopening this case at the request of User:Jenhawk777. The other editors will be notified within a few minutes. Jenhawk777 is requested to make a statement below explaining why they have requested re-opening. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:46, 21 August 2020 (UTC) The statement by User:Jenhawk777 is limited to 200 words, as are any other statements. Be civil and concise. Overly long statements do not explain the issues any better than shorter statements. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:47, 21 August 2020 (UTC) Eighth Statements by EditorsExplanation by User:Jenhawk777
statement by User:slaterstevenUnsourced content should be removed, but I am not the only one there. I am not sure I understand the rest.Slatersteven (talk) 09:12, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
Ninth Statement by ModeratorJenhawk777: Exactly what is your issue about article content that is why you wanted this dispute reopened? It isn't clear. Please identify one to three changes to the article that you are requesting. Do not say that unsourced content should be removed; say what unsourced content should be removed. Be specific and clear. Both: Should the paragraph about German Christians be removed? Be brief and clear. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:08, 24 August 2020 (UTC) Ninth Statements by EditorsJenhawk777Apparently, what I most objected to has now been removed and slightly rewritten. No one pinged me to let me know, so I just discovered it, but it's now good enough for me to support the content of the first four sentences as they are. I don't know who did it or when, but I thank them. As to referencing, I'd just like to see a little clean up, that's all. These sentences have a pile of 9 references all in a row at their end, that need to be inline citations of those sentences they actually refer to, with the extras removed. It's impossible for anyone to check them as they are. The sentence that begins, "The Third Reich founded its own version of Christianity ..." is an aspect of how the Nazis persecuted the churches, so it's relevant to the topic, and should be kept. However, in order to fully represent what sources say about it, I would like to see a second sentence added--"This is what (sources) say led to the development of the Confessing Church and what Protestant opposition to Nazis there was." This makes no claims concerning persecution, so perhaps we could agree to add that one statement without fighting over it. That's it. The rest has been fixed. Thank you Robert McClenon for doing this. It's amazingly wonderful that you responded as you did. You listened. I'm deeply grateful. I also respect, appreciate and admire Slatersteven's objectivity, reasonableness and commitment to good content (no matter how irritating their opponent is), but I will be sure and tell them that personally. Thank you both. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:48, 24 August 2020 (UTC) SlaterstevenGiven there are 9 sources in that paragraph, no not a blanket removal. But yes much of it needs removing or re-writing.Slatersteven (talk) 08:59, 24 August 2020 (UTC) I agree how it was sourced was awful. But its just a question of reworking.Slatersteven (talk) 18:17, 24 August 2020 (UTC) Tenth Statement by ModeratorIs there anything else that needs to be mediated? I will close the case if there is nothing else to mediate. If there are any remaining issues, please make a statement of not more than 100 words for each issue. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:40, 25 August 2020 (UTC) Tenth Statements by EditorsJenhawk777Not for me. The German Christians are no longer mentioned. All my original complaints have been addressed. I didn't get to add in what I wanted, but that was consensus, and I said from the start that I was okay either adding balance or removing imbalance, and since removal has happened, I'm good. I assume whoever has been fixing the rest of it will finish inline citations. Thank you again for your willingness to help. Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:22, 25 August 2020 (UTC) Slatersteven
|
The King: Eternal Monarch
Closed discussion |
---|
Jai Shri Ram
Closed discussion |
---|
Ideological bias_on_Wikipedia
Closed discussion |
---|
Principal component analysis
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Principal component analysis ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
Dispute overview
We cannot reach a consensus on the content of the introductory paragraph
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Please see my comments in the article history and on the talk page.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Principal_component_analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Principal_component_analysis&action=history
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Editors who are mathematicians with a background in linear algebra may be able to resolve this dispute. I am new to WP and do not know many editors.
Summary of dispute by Dicklyon
Note: I also appealed for help already at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Statistics. But wikiprojects tend to be in a coma, so I don't expect much.
User:AP295 is a new editor who has edited almost nothing but this article. He thinks a major rewrite his way, starting with the lead paragraph, will turn it from a "travesty" into something pretty good. He doesn't have the experience of writing leads, or of collaborating with editors who push back on him. So it's hard going. I jumped in to help when pinged, and tried to incorporate his preferred approach a bit in the lead, but he has taken a nothing-but-revert approach (until I gave him a 3RR warning today). Dicklyon (talk) 22:53, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
Looking back over his edits, I think the article was in much better shape before AP295's first edit in March 2020. Dicklyon (talk) 17:20, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Gufosowa
A while back, I noticed that the PCA article had a substandard entry paragraph and tried to make the lead more encyclopedic. I think it had a bad lead because 1) the lead introduces trivial concepts that have their own pages in Wikipedia, 2) The lead focuses on the methodology (how) as if an engineering textbook rather than the definition (what) as an encyclopedia should do.
Everyone agrees that the article does not have a standard lead. However, AP295 puts a barrier on the attempts to fix it. The user reverted all the attempts (1(reason) 2 3 4 5) by opposing small details (single keyword) which he could simply modify. --Gufosowa (talk) 11:57, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
Principal component analysis discussion
Volunteer's Note Filing editor has not notified users on their talk page- although they seem to be aware.Nightenbelle (talk) 14:46, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Dicklyon and I have come to a compromise on the talk page. Unless Gufosowa has any complaints this can probably be closed. AP295 (talk) 14:23, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Tesla, Inc.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Tesla, Inc. ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
- Stonkaments (talk · contribs)
- QRep2020 (talk · contribs)
- Stepho-wrs (talk · contribs)
- MartinezMD (talk · contribs)
- A7V2 (talk · contribs)
- IPBilly (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
There is disagreement as to whether Elon Musk, J.B. Straubel and Ian Wright should be listed as founders in the Tesla, Inc. infobox. As the footnote in the infobox notes, Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning were the original founders of Tesla; Musk, Straubel, and Wright only negotiated to call themselves co-founders after-the-fact, in a lawsuit settlement in 2009. As shown on the talk page discussion, reliable sources consistently and clearly name only Eberhard and Tarpenning as the sole co-founders of Tesla. I believe the infobox should reflect the determination made by these reliable sources, and only list Eberhard and Tarpenning as founders. Editors opposed to this change argue that the lawsuit settlement means the true founders of the company is now a "disputed" fact, which should be recognized by including Musk, Straubel, and Wright as founders as well. This feels to me like allowing the involved parties to re-write history, because the verifiable facts show that the true founders were only Eberhard and Tarpenning. The additional context of the lawsuit and settlement allowing Musk, Straubel, and Wright to call themselves co-founders is better suited for the article's main text, not the infobox.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
I think you can provide input on whether the lawsuit settlement makes the founders of Tesla a "disputed" fact that warrants mention in the infobox, or if reliable sources clearly show the verified facts to be that Eberhard and Tarpenning were the sole co-founders of the company.
Summary of dispute by QRep2020
There are two participants who reject the current Founder configuration in the Infobox, two who affirm it, and two who argue that the field should not be used in the specific article at all; two of these participants came to the discussion via a request for outside comment. Clearly there is a disagreement that needs resolution.
My case for rejection is that the Infobox is not an appropriate place for including contingent labels that were "agreed upon" after the fact. The Founders field should consist of only relevant verified historical (abbreviated) statements as that is how any particular standard field of any type of Infobox consistently presents in Wikipedia articles across all categories. If there was a standard field in Infobox (company) template designated Retroactive Founders then that is where Musk, Straubel, etc. would be listed, but there is not. Placing the three retroactive founders' names in the Founders field with a footnote attached to them does not grant some sort of exception especially since the article itself already explains how Eberhard and Tarpenning created the company, coined its name, etc. as well as what happened in the subsequent lawsuit and agreement.
Edit: Italicized text supplants earlier text. QRep2020 (talk) 03:24, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Stepho-wrs
The editors who think that it should only be 2 founders have equated founding with those who signed the incorporation papers. But there is no legal definition of founder and even WP says at Startup_company#Founders/entrepreneurs that "The right to call oneself a co-founder can be established through an agreement with one's fellow co-founders or with permission of the board of directors, investors, or shareholders of a startup company." Article currently lists 5 founders, with a footnote on the 3 disputed names with details and reference - ie very compact but lets the interested reader know. Stepho talk 11:21, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by MartinezMD
I don't see a problem keeping the list of founders as all 5 of the men in question. The three founders in question have proper footnotes explaining that they came later but that a negotiation led to the 5 being listed as such. Who are we trying to please here by saying otherwise? MartinezMD (talk) 00:02, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by A7V2
The discussion seemed to go a lot into a specific definition of what a founder is, but I feel this is not relevant and instead Wikipedia should reflect what reliable sources say, which as per my own comments I feel are just the two founders. That said, I agree with IPBilly's point that the infobox should only provide a summary, and contain as little information as necessary. So I feel that under the circumstances of it being disputed, the infobox category should either be left blank or have something like "disputed" so that it can be discussed in the article. Given that only one user (not including myself just now) has responded to this idea (which hadn't been raised by anyone else), I'm not sure what the point of this discussion here is? The discussion on the talk page is only a week old and IPBilly's comment just two days old. A7V2 (talk) 09:55, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by IPBilly
The disagreement appears to be centered around the criteria for inclusion in the Infobox:founders category; the individuals responsible for originally incorporating the organization or persons whom carry the title "founder". Side A would like to change the infobox to list only the two "original" founders; including the 3 others would be rewriting history because they gained the title only after a court settlement. Side B would like to list all 5 founders because those 5 individuals all have the title "founder". Both sides have produced verifiable sources that support their position. I proposed splitting the baby and removing the category from the infobox entirely because either listing of 2 or 5 founders does not "summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article", per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE. Given that there seems to be no disagreement 3/5 founders were added post-hoc, the key fact is that the "true" founders are disputed/honorary. IPBilly (talk) 13:45, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Tesla, Inc. discussion
Any reason we can't have the first two and then add the other three as added in the 2009 lawsuit in parentheses? Guy (help! - typo?) 08:18, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
- I am not sure how that helps solve whether the (or any) disputed "fact" warrants mention in the Infobox. QRep2020 (talk) 15:56, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
- The issue of this discussion is primarily caused by different ideas of what a founder is. Some have taken it to mean the people who signed the incorporation papers - and only those people. This does work for the majority of cases. However, the term is only a vague term that just means someone heavily involved during the early periods of the company. Wikipedia's own definition allows for founders to be whoever they agree it to be. It is perfectly acceptable to put all 5 founders in the infobox, as long as there is some (hopefully short) marker to point the reader to a fuller explanation of the controversy. Stepho talk 22:34, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
- You are the only one making an argument based on the definition of a founder. Others are simply relying on the determination made by reliable sources as to who the founders are, consistent with WP:NOTTRUTH Stonkaments (talk) 16:25, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
- Disagree. per WP:NOTTRUTH "In most other contexts, there are more than truths and lies under the sun: there are half-truths, lack of context, words with double or unclear meanings, logical fallacies, cherry-picked pieces of information to lead the reader to a predetermined conclusion, inadvertent reuse of someone else's lies, and even misunderstandings. A statement may fail to adequately convey the state of affairs regarding some topic, without that statement being an actual lie." Reliable sources have made both determinations of the founders, and it is up to us to decide which definition is appropriate and therefore which determination is most appropriate for the infobox. Sort of like how the original roadster was a hacked up Lotus Elise with an electric motor, nobody disagrees that it was a "Tesla" because it carried the Tesla badge, even though it originally started as a Lotus. In that scenario we'd be discussing the definition of "manufacturer", and whether or not a company must manufacture the chassis (or what minimum amount of contribution is necessary) in order to claim it as their own. IPBilly (talk) 20:05, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
- In other words, you, me and some of the references are using different definitions of founder. Which is why we simply list them all, add a marker and an explanation the controversy in the text (or footnote in this case). No lies, no hiding but still simple in the infobox. Stepho talk 21:07, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
- We keep going back to talk of definitions, but who are we to determine how a word is to be used on Wikipedia (or anywhere really)? Or to force a "new" usage via some extraneous introduction of footnotes? My point is we should instead to look at how other Infoboxes for company articles operate and try to maintain conformity, which is to be done by either using verified historical statements as the contents of the fields or by simply by leaving fields out entirely. I think the latter is a bit extreme given how readily available documentation about the creation of Tesla is, but it is certainly more consistent with other wide Infobox usage than mixing statement types (spurred by conflating the concept of a retroactive founder with that of a founder). Also, since we are already treading familiar ground here, maybe we should refrain from discussion until some other uninvolved editor contributes?QRep2020 (talk) 00:39, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
- In other words, you, me and some of the references are using different definitions of founder. Which is why we simply list them all, add a marker and an explanation the controversy in the text (or footnote in this case). No lies, no hiding but still simple in the infobox. Stepho talk 21:07, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
- Disagree. per WP:NOTTRUTH "In most other contexts, there are more than truths and lies under the sun: there are half-truths, lack of context, words with double or unclear meanings, logical fallacies, cherry-picked pieces of information to lead the reader to a predetermined conclusion, inadvertent reuse of someone else's lies, and even misunderstandings. A statement may fail to adequately convey the state of affairs regarding some topic, without that statement being an actual lie." Reliable sources have made both determinations of the founders, and it is up to us to decide which definition is appropriate and therefore which determination is most appropriate for the infobox. Sort of like how the original roadster was a hacked up Lotus Elise with an electric motor, nobody disagrees that it was a "Tesla" because it carried the Tesla badge, even though it originally started as a Lotus. In that scenario we'd be discussing the definition of "manufacturer", and whether or not a company must manufacture the chassis (or what minimum amount of contribution is necessary) in order to claim it as their own. IPBilly (talk) 20:05, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
- You are the only one making an argument based on the definition of a founder. Others are simply relying on the determination made by reliable sources as to who the founders are, consistent with WP:NOTTRUTH Stonkaments (talk) 16:25, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
- The issue of this discussion is primarily caused by different ideas of what a founder is. Some have taken it to mean the people who signed the incorporation papers - and only those people. This does work for the majority of cases. However, the term is only a vague term that just means someone heavily involved during the early periods of the company. Wikipedia's own definition allows for founders to be whoever they agree it to be. It is perfectly acceptable to put all 5 founders in the infobox, as long as there is some (hopefully short) marker to point the reader to a fuller explanation of the controversy. Stepho talk 22:34, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Richard Stallman
Closed discussion |
---|
Armorial of Europe
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Armorial of Europe ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
- Fenn-O-maniC (talk · contribs)
- Ping 693 (talk · contribs)
- Ssolbergj (talk · contribs)
- Xwejnusgozo (talk · contribs)
- A.D.Hope (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
As discussed on the talk page for the article, an issue has been raised with the quality and neutrality of the article which included rather biased opinions about heraldic practices as well as imaginary versions of some of the national coats of arms used in the article.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Talk:Armorial_of_Europe#Quality_of_this_article
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
More opinions on the article's content might hopefully resolve the issue.
Summary of dispute by Ping 693
I first asked Ssolbergj not to change the article, nicely at first and then not so nicely. He claimed to me that it's okay to edit since it falls under the "Bold Edit" rules. However, he overhauled this without any prior discussion or approval, and as shown on that article's talk page, it was felt that the extra shields were redundant. My patience was especially thin to begin with as he has a long history of doing this; he overhauled the page on heraldry, again without any prior discussion or approval, and his version was quite frankly less informative. In my view, he's proven to be a frequent problem user who needs to be reigned in. Ping 693 (talk) 17:46, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Ssolbergj
Summary of dispute by Xwejnusgozo
The dispute arose since the article included depictions of versions of coats of arms which are not in regular use, plus the fact that the article did not (and still doesn't) contain a single source. My involvement in this dispute was limited to a comment on the talk page in which I agreed with previous comments made by other editors, and the addition of "unsourced" and "neutrality" tags to the article. --Xwejnusgozo (talk) 09:48, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by A.D.Hope
Armorial of Europe discussion
- Volunteer Comment I am willing to moderate this discussion but before I open it officially does Ssolbergj agree to participate? And also, is there a reason why A.D.Hope (talk · contribs) was not included when they participated in the discussion? Nightenbelle (talk) 14:40, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
- I must have missed their comment on the talk page, my bad. --Fenn-O-maniC (talk) 16:18, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
- No Worries- go ahead adn add them now- as soon as Ssolbergj (talk · contribs) agrees to participate we'll get started.Nightenbelle (talk) 21:37, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
- I must have missed their comment on the talk page, my bad. --Fenn-O-maniC (talk) 16:18, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
- Volunteer Comment 2- I put a notice on Ssolbergj (talk · contribs)'s talk page asking him to come and participate.... but if they do not agree in the next couple of days... I'm going to have to close this. :-/ Nightenbelle (talk) 16:31, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Petfinder
Closed discussion |
---|
Eugene Scalia
Closed discussion |
---|
List of My Hero Academia characters
Closed discussion |
---|
The Fat Controller
Closed discussion |
---|