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Created talk-page for the Jan Bogdan article - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 19:41, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Noteworthy
no RS makes out a case for his being noteworthy--this looks like coi re surname. Rjensen (talk) 23:31, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
- @Rjensen - Thank you *very much* for your comments - yes, I considered this, but thought the several references from the Congressional Record[1][2][3] - and the one from the White House[4] - as well as - several book references (ie, "Jamestown Pioneers from Poland, 1608-1958" and "Robertson's Book of Firsts: Who Did What for the First Time") may make the "Jan Bogdan" article worthy - at least afaik atm - in any case - hope the above helps in some way - Thanks again for your comments - and - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 00:13, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
- ^ Congressional Record (July 5, 1956). "Congressional Record - 1956". Congressional Record. pp. 11905–11906. Retrieved October 1, 2014.
- ^ Congressional Record (1975). "Congressional Record 1975". Congressional Record 121. Retrieved October 1, 2014.
- ^ Congressional Record (1976). "Congressional Record 1976". Congressional Record 122. Retrieved October 1, 2014.
- ^ Eisenhower, Dwight D. (September 28, 1958). "Jamestown Pioneers From Poland". White House. Retrieved October 1, 2014.
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- I looked at those. None say that he is in any way importsant--they read his name on a list. Indeed your first group = primary sources (speeches by Congressmen who know zero about Virginia history--they are not reliable on colonial Virginia). Sources like that will not pass any Wiki standards. I believe they were reading scripts in order to praise Poles in America today. The books have almost zero info on Jan Bogdan--birth, death, location, activities, family and What he did that was so important. --I fear his importance seems to come from the similarity of his name to yours. No historian of Virginia or colonial America says he is in any way important. Rjensen (talk) 00:26, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks again for your comments - yes, the name "Jan Bogdan" drew my attention of course - nonetheless, and afaik (according to the cited references), Jan Bogdan was one of the *very first* slovaks at the very beginnings of the country - one of the *very first* skilled craftsmen at the very beginnings of the country - his presence in the country was the result of a plea from an *historic figure* (ie, Captain John Smith) - at an *historic time* (ie, 1608) - and - in an *historic place* (ie, Jamestown, Virginia) - those notions in themselves, from several independent sources, may make Jan Bogdan notable I would think - Thanks again for your comments - and - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 01:03, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
- one of the very first---that's pretty weak. We do NOT have articles on all the others at Jamestown who share all these "firsts". We do NOT know that he actually built anything. That's why no scholar ever mentions him. He's a ghost on a tablet. Rjensen (talk) 01:49, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks again - seems I just, by happenstance, ran across some interesting refs (imo) that may be relevant: apparently (according to several book references), Jan Bogdan may have helped save the life of Captain John Smith "during a surprise attack from the local Indians" (see => "Jamestown Pioneers From Poland" and "The First hundred years, 1875-1975" and "The Polish pioneers in Virginia") - this may make Jan Bogdan notable as well - there may be more - but I may have to do more research at the next opportunity - Thanks again for your comments - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 02:07, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
- Nope--books like "The First hundred years, 1875-1975: a history of St. Hedwig Parish, Toledo, Ohio" are not RS regarding colonial Virginia. Colonial Virginia has been studied by a thousand or more scholars (there are even specialized institutes for it), and none of them seem to find Bogdan important. He might have been in a group of soldiers that saved the Captain's life. maybe not. We don't even have birth and death dates--a sign that he was largely ignored. Let's start by dropping the Congressmen as POV sources. Rjensen (talk) 04:58, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, I *entirely* agree with you - better historical documents are *always* welcome - any help you can provide for a better historical basis for the present "Jan Bogdan" article would be appreciated of course - afaik you may be an experienced historian and may have better ways to locate relevant historical materials than I - you may (or may not) welcome the challenge - I'll try to locate better sources and/or more informations about "Jan Bogdan" at my next opportunity - seems to me there may be more (maybe much more?) written about "Jan Bogdan" than we may now know - if - we know best where to look - in any case - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 05:49, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
- Nope--books like "The First hundred years, 1875-1975: a history of St. Hedwig Parish, Toledo, Ohio" are not RS regarding colonial Virginia. Colonial Virginia has been studied by a thousand or more scholars (there are even specialized institutes for it), and none of them seem to find Bogdan important. He might have been in a group of soldiers that saved the Captain's life. maybe not. We don't even have birth and death dates--a sign that he was largely ignored. Let's start by dropping the Congressmen as POV sources. Rjensen (talk) 04:58, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks again - seems I just, by happenstance, ran across some interesting refs (imo) that may be relevant: apparently (according to several book references), Jan Bogdan may have helped save the life of Captain John Smith "during a surprise attack from the local Indians" (see => "Jamestown Pioneers From Poland" and "The First hundred years, 1875-1975" and "The Polish pioneers in Virginia") - this may make Jan Bogdan notable as well - there may be more - but I may have to do more research at the next opportunity - Thanks again for your comments - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 02:07, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
- one of the very first---that's pretty weak. We do NOT have articles on all the others at Jamestown who share all these "firsts". We do NOT know that he actually built anything. That's why no scholar ever mentions him. He's a ghost on a tablet. Rjensen (talk) 01:49, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks again for your comments - yes, the name "Jan Bogdan" drew my attention of course - nonetheless, and afaik (according to the cited references), Jan Bogdan was one of the *very first* slovaks at the very beginnings of the country - one of the *very first* skilled craftsmen at the very beginnings of the country - his presence in the country was the result of a plea from an *historic figure* (ie, Captain John Smith) - at an *historic time* (ie, 1608) - and - in an *historic place* (ie, Jamestown, Virginia) - those notions in themselves, from several independent sources, may make Jan Bogdan notable I would think - Thanks again for your comments - and - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 01:03, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
- I looked at those. None say that he is in any way importsant--they read his name on a list. Indeed your first group = primary sources (speeches by Congressmen who know zero about Virginia history--they are not reliable on colonial Virginia). Sources like that will not pass any Wiki standards. I believe they were reading scripts in order to praise Poles in America today. The books have almost zero info on Jan Bogdan--birth, death, location, activities, family and What he did that was so important. --I fear his importance seems to come from the similarity of his name to yours. No historian of Virginia or colonial America says he is in any way important. Rjensen (talk) 00:26, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
FWIW - a related (and relevant) discussion may be found here => Talk:History of Virginia#Should The 1619 Jamestown Polish Craftsmen Strike Be Mentioned - Or Not? - in any regards - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 21:46, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
Proposal: Delete this Article
This "Jan Bogdan" never existed. There is no reliable source for the assertions in this article. The OA, @Drbogdan:, has misused the only reliable sources he has, Pula and Barbour, to make them stand as authority for assertions which they actually show to be groundless, if not indeed fraudulent. This entire article is based on a hoax and should be deleted. J. D. Crutchfield | Talk 22:45, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
- At the moment, I don't know if "Jan Bogdan" really existed or not - there seems to be numerous sources cited in the Jan Bogdan Wikipedia article which claim he did - for my part, I've tried to apply all references cited in the article in good faith and appropriately - and not intentionally otherwise - nonetheless, several cited references are claimed (mainly by User:Jdcrutch - with good reason afaik) to be more reliable (ie, Pula[1] and Barbour[2]) than others cited in the article - in the Barbour reliable source,[2] "Jan Bogdan" is directly mentioned several times, including on "page 81"(with reference[3]), "page 82"(with reference[4]), "page-83"(with reference[4]), "page-85"(with reference[5]), and "page-86"(with reference[6]) - comments from other editors on all this welcome of course - in any case - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 03:37, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
- ^ Pula, James S. (2008). "Fact vs. Fiction: What Do We Really Know About The Polish Presence In Early Jamestown?". The Polish Review 53 (4): 477–493. Retrieved November 18, 2014.
- ^ a b Barbour, Philip L. (January 1964). "The Identity of the First Poles in America". The William and Mary Quarterly 21 (1): 77–92. Retrieved November 18, 2014.
- ^ Maisel,, Albert Q. (June 1955). The Poles Among Us. Reader's Digest. pp. 171–172. Retrieved November 18, 2014.
- ^ a b Waldo, Arthur L. (1957). First Poles in America, 1608-1958 (Pittsburgh, 1957). p. 7.
- ^ Waldo, Arthur L. (1960). Searching for Polish Jamestown Sources. Polish American Studies XVII (Orchard Lake, Michigan). pp. 105–114.
- ^ Karol, Wachtl (1944). Polonja w Ameryce (Polonia in America) (Philadelphia). p. 27.
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- BRIEF Followup - if (as I'm now beginning to understand may be the case) the actual historical existence of "Jan Bogdan" rests solely on a purported 1625 diary (ie, "Pamiętnik handlowca"), in which no copy of the original text is known to exist, according to a reliable source,[1] then I am in agreement with the comments of User:Jdcrutch above - and - if so - it would be *entirely* ok with me to del/mv/ce the article as appropriate of course - thanks to those (esp User:Jdcrutch and User:Rjensen) for the time and effort to present this new understanding of the article (at least to me) - I did not have the understanding I have now at the time I started (and developed) the article - in any case - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 14:27, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
- ^ Pula, James S. (2008). "Fact vs. Fiction: What Do We Really Know About The Polish Presence In Early Jamestown?". The Polish Review 53 (4): 477–493. Retrieved November 18, 2014.
- Comment: I appreciate DrBogdan's latest note, and his acknowledgment that "Jan Bogdan" may not have existed. I have never doubted DrBogdan's good faith: I fear only that his enthusiasm for the subject has (in the past) led him to believe where he should have doubted, and to misread Pula and Barbour (e.g., by taking Barbour's quotations from Waldo as coming from Barbour himself). Plenty of honest people have fallen for Waldo's fraud, which is where most of DrBogdan's sources come from. As far as I have been able to discover (through searches on JSTOR and Google), Pula and Barbour—properly read—are the only reliable sources available on this topic, and they make it pretty clear (without actually crying "Fraud!") that Waldo invented the Pamiętnik handlowca, which is the only source, as far as I know, for the name "Jan Bogdan" in this context. J. D. Crutchfield | Talk 16:02, 19 November 2014 (UTC)