Frequently asked questions (FAQ) | |
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Many of these questions are rephrased objections to evolution that users have argued should be included in the text of Evolution. The reason for their exclusion is discussed below.
The main points of this FAQ can be summarized as:
More detail is given on each of these points, and other common questions and objections, below. To view the response to a question, click the [show] link to the right of the question. Q1: Why won't you add criticisms or objections to evolution in the Evolution article?
A1: This is essentially mandated by Wikipedia's official neutral point of view policy. This policy requires that articles treat views on various subjects proportionally to those views' mainstream acceptance in the appropriate academic field. For example, if two contradictory views in physics are held by roughly an equal number of physicists, then Wikipedia should give those views "equal time". On the other hand, if one view is held by 99% of physicists and the other by 1%, then Wikipedia should favor the former view throughout its physics articles; the latter view should receive little, if any, coverage. To do otherwise would require, for example, that we treat belief in a Flat Earth as being equal to other viewpoints on the figure of the Earth.
Due to the enormous mainstream scientific consensus in support of modern evolutionary theory, and pursuant to Wikipedia's aforementioned policies, the Evolution article references evolution as an observable natural process and as the valid explanation for the diversity of life on Earth. Although there are indeed opposing views to evolution, such as Creationism, none of these views have any support in the relevant field (biology), and therefore Wikipedia cannot, and should not, treat these opposing views as being significant to the science of evolution. On the other hand, they may be very significant to sociological articles on the effects of evolutionary theory on religious and cultural beliefs; this is why sociological and historical articles such as Creation–evolution controversy give major coverage to these opposing views, while biological articles such as Evolution do not. Q2: Evolution is controversial, so why won't you teach the controversy?
A2: As noted above, evolution is at best only controversial in social areas like politics and religion. The fact that evolution occurs and the ability of modern evolutionary theory to explain why it occurs are not controversial amongst biologists. Indeed, numerous respectable scientific societies, such as the American Association for the Advancement of Science and the National Academy of Sciences, have issued statements supporting evolution and denouncing creationism and/or ID.[1] In 1987 only about 0.15% of American Earth and life scientists supported creationism.[2]
Thus, as a consequence of Wikipedia's policies, it is necessary to treat evolution as mainstream scientific consensus treats it: an uncontroversial fact that has an uncontested and accurate explanation in evolutionary theory. There are no scientifically supported "alternatives" for this view. However, while the overall theory of evolution is not controversial in that it is the only widely-accepted scientific theory for the diversity of life on Earth, certain aspects of the theory are controversial or disputed in that there actually are significant disagreements regarding them among biologists. These lesser controversies, such as over the rate of evolution, the importance of various mechanisms such as the neutral theory of molecular evolution, or the relevance of the gene-centered view of evolution, are, in fact, covered extensively in Wikipedia's science articles. However, most are too technical to warrant a great deal of discussion on the top-level article Evolution. They are very different from the creation–evolution controversy, however, in that they amount to scientific disputes, not religious ones. Q3: Why is evolution described as though it's a fact? Isn't evolution just a theory?
A3: That depends on if you use the words evolution, theory, and fact in their scientific or their colloquial sense. Unfortunately, all of these words have at least two meanings. For example, evolution can either refer to an observed process (covered at evolution), or, as a shorthand for evolutionary theory, to the explanation for that process (covered at modern evolutionary synthesis). To avoid confusion between these two meanings, when the theory of evolution, rather than the process/fact of evolution, is being discussed, this will usually be noted by explicitly using the word theory.
Evolution is not a theory in the sense used on Evolution; rather, it is a fact. This is because the word evolution is used here to refer to the observed process of the genetic composition of populations changing over successive generations. Because this is simply an observation, it is considered a fact. Fact has two different meanings: in colloquial usage, it refers to any well-supported proposition; in scientific usage, it refers to a confirmed observation. For example, in the scientific sense, "apples fall if you drop them" is a fact, but "apples fall if you drop them because of a curvature in spacetime" is a theory. Gravity can thus either refer to a fact (the observation that objects are attracted to each other) or a theory (general relativity, which is the explanation for this fact). Evolution is the same way. As a fact, evolution is an observed biological process; as a theory, it is the explanation for this process. What adds to this confusion is that the theory of evolution is also sometimes called a "fact", in the colloquial sense—that is, to emphasize how well supported it is. When evolution is shorthand for "evolutionary theory", evolution is indeed a theory. However, phrasing this as "just a theory" is misleading. Theory has two different meanings: in colloquial usage, it refers to a conjecture or guess; in scientific usage, it refers to a well-supported explanation or model for observed phenomena. Evolution is a theory in the latter sense, not in the former. Thus, it is a theory in the same sense that gravity and plate tectonics are theories. The currently accepted theory of evolution is known as the modern evolutionary synthesis. Q4: But isn't evolution unproven?
A4: Once again, this depends on how one is defining the terms proof and proven. Proof has two meanings: in logic and mathematics, it refers to an argument or demonstration showing that a proposition is completely certain and logically necessary; in other uses, proof refers to the establishment and accumulation of experimental evidence to a degree at which it lends overwhelming support to a proposition. Therefore, a proven proposition in the mathematical sense is one which is formally known to be true, while a proven proposition in the more general sense is one which is widely held to be true because the evidence strongly indicates that this is so ("beyond all reasonable doubt", in legal language).
In the first sense, the whole of evolutionary theory is not proven with absolute certainty, but there are mathematical proofs in evolutionary theory. However, nothing in the natural sciences can be proven in the first sense: empirical claims such as those in science cannot ever be absolutely certain, because they always depend on a finite set of facts that have been studied relative to the unproven assumptions of things stirring in the infinite complexity of the world around us. Evolutionary science pushes the threshold of discovery into the unknown. To call evolution "unproven" in this sense is technically correct, but meaningless, because propositions like "the Earth revolves around the Sun" and even "the Earth exists" are equally unproven. Absolute proof is only possible for a priori propositions like "1 + 1 = 2" or "all bachelors are unmarried men", which do not depend on any experience or evidence, but rather on definition. In the second sense, on the other hand, evolutionary theory is indeed "proven". This is because evolution is extremely well supported by the evidence, has made testable confirmed predictions, etc. For more information, see Evidence of evolution. Q5: Has evolution ever been observed?
A5: Evolution, as a fact, is the gradual change in forms of life over several billion years. In contrast, the field of evolutionary biology is less than 200 years old. So it is not surprising that scientists did not directly observe, for example, the gradual change over tens of millions of years of land mammals to whales.[3] However, there are other ways to "observe" evolution in action.
Scientists have directly observed and tested small changes in forms of life in laboratories, particularly in organisms that breed rapidly, such as bacteria and fruit flies.[4] A famous experiment was developed in 1992 that traced bacterial evolution with precision in a lab. This experiment has subsequently been used to test the accuracy and robustness of methods used in reconstructing the evolutionary history of other organisms with great success.[5][6] Evolution has also been observed in the field, such as in the plant Oenothera lamarckiana which gave rise to the new species Oenothera gigas,[7] in the Italian Wall Lizard,[8] and in Darwin's finches.[9] A new species of mosquito has even evolved in the London Underground system since it opened.[10] Scientists have observed large changes in forms of life in the fossil record. From these direct observations scientists have been able to make inferences regarding the evolutionary history of life. Such inferences are also common to all fields of science. For example, the neutron has never been observed, but all the available data supports the neutron model. The inferences upon which evolution is based have been tested by the study of more recently discovered fossils, the science of genetics, and other methods. For example, critics once challenged the inference that land mammals evolved into whales. However, later fossil discoveries illustrated the pathway of whale evolution.[3] So, although the entire evolutionary history of life has not been directly observed, all available data supports the fact of evolution. Q6: Why is microevolution equated with macroevolution?
A6: The article doesn't equate the two, but merely recognizes that they are largely or entirely the same process, just on different timescales. The great majority of modern evolutionary biologists consider macroevolution to simply be microevolution on a larger timescale; all fields of science accept that small ("micro") changes can accumulate to produce large ("macro") differences, given enough time. Most of the topics covered in the evolution article are basic enough to not require an appeal to the micro/macro distinction. Consequently, the two terms are not equated, but simply not dealt with much.
A more nuanced version of the claim that evolution has never been observed is to claim that microevolution has been directly observed, while macroevolution has not. However, that is not the case, as speciations, which are generally seen as the benchmark for macroevolution, have been observed in a number of instances. Q7: What about the scientific evidence against evolution?
A7: To be frank, there isn't any. Most claimed "evidence against evolution" is either a distortion of the actual facts of the matter, or an example of something that hasn't been explained yet. The former is erroneous, as it is based on incorrect claims. The latter, on the other hand, even when accurate, is irrelevant. The fact that not everything is fully understood doesn't make a certain proposition false; that is an example of the argument from ignorance logical fallacy. Examples of claimed evidence against evolution:
Q8: How could life arise by chance?
A8: If by "arise", one means "develop from non-organic matter through abiogenesis", then this is a question that is not answered by evolutionary theory. Evolution only deals with the development of pre-existing life, not with how that life first came to be. The fact that life evolves is not dependent upon the origin of life any more than the fact that objects gravitate towards other objects is dependent upon the Big Bang.
On the other hand, if by "arise" one means "evolve into the organisms alive today", then the simple answer is: it didn't. Evolution does not occur "by chance". Rather, evolution occurs through natural selection, which is a non-random process. Although mutation is random, natural selection favors mutations that have specific properties—the selection is therefore not random. Natural selection occurs because organisms with favored characteristics survive and reproduce more than ones without favored characteristics, and if these characteristics are heritable they will mechanically increase in frequency over generations. Although some evolutionary phenomena, such as genetic drift, are indeed random, these processes do not produce adaptations in organisms. If the substance of this objection is that evolution seems implausible, that it's hard to imagine how life could develop by natural processes, then this is an invalid argument from ignorance. Something does not need to be intuitive or easy to grasp in order to be true.Past discussions
For further information, see the numerous past discussions on these topics in the archives of Talk:Evolution: The article is not neutral. It doesn't mention that evolution is controversial.
The article should mention alternative views prominently, such as in a criticism section.
Evolution is just a theory, not a fact.
There is scientific evidence against evolution. References
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Contents
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Add relevant video link?
Should the following relevant video link (from NYT & Retro Report)[1] be added to the Evolution article ("External links" section?) − and/or - some other related article(s)? =>
Video (10:56) − "Raising Doubts About Evolution... in Science Class" (Retro Report; 19 November 2017) on YouTube[1]
Comments Welcome - in any case - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 14:36, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
References
- ^ a b Retro Report (20 November 2017). "Raising Doubts about Evolution... in Science Class − Video (10:47)". The New York Times. Retrieved 20 November 2017.
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- No thanks! Better off without such things, our job is to tell the plain scientific story just as it is. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:39, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
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- Maybe that it would be appropriate for one of:
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- I agree with PaleoNeonate. This article is no place for that video link. This article is about the biology of evolution, not the social ramifications or effects. Andrew Z. Colvin • Talk 19:02, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
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Images-Timeline worthy to add - or not?
FWIW - a very basic images-timeline has been created (see copy above) that may (or may not) be worthy to add to certain appropriate articles - as an improvement - and as a way to better communicate with the average Wikipedia reader - after all => "Readability of Wikipedia Articles" (BEST? => Score of 60/"9th grade/14yo" level)[1] - so far - adding the images-timeline, in good faith, to a few evolution-related articles has been reverted, without discussion, including 1, 2, 3 - other editors may (or may not) agree with the reverts - nonetheless - articles may be suggested that may be appropriate for the images-timeline - for my part, it's *entirely* ok to rv,rm,mv,ce any of my edits - esp if there is "WP:CONSENSUS" from other editors of course - hope this helps in some way - Comments/Suggestions Welcome - in any regards - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 03:41, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
References
- ^ Lucassen, Teun; Dijkstra, Roald; Schraagen, Jan Maarten (3 September 2012). "Readability of Wikipedia". First Monday (journal). 17 (9). Retrieved 21 November 2017.
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- 300 million years ago was the Carboniferous right? User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 03:48, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Dunkleosteus77: Thank you for your comment - seems the Carboniferous was 298.9 to 358.9 mya; the Permian was 251.9 to 298.9 mya - Thanks again for your comment - and - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 04:00, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Dunkleosteus77: BRIEF (belated) Followup: Took a closer look at the date of the earliest dinosaurs - seems 240 mya may be a more reasonable estimated date (than the 300 mya presented earlier) - please see => "Evolution of dinosaurs#Earliest dinosaurs" & "Nyasasaurus#Relationships" - Thanks again for your comment - and suggestion re the dinosaur date - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 14:20, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
- @Dunkleosteus77: Thank you for your comment - seems the Carboniferous was 298.9 to 358.9 mya; the Permian was 251.9 to 298.9 mya - Thanks again for your comment - and - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 04:00, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
- 300 million years ago was the Carboniferous right? User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 03:48, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
- As the article already has quite a few images and a timeline that covers this, I don’t think it belongs. I understand the readability aspect, but this over-simplifies things a bit too much. Andrew Z. Colvin • Talk 04:29, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
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- Agree with Andrew Z. Colvin, it isn't needed and wouldn't fit in here or in many other evolution articles. Perhaps it has a use over at Simple Wikipedia, but I am concerned at its inherent linearity, which shouts "Progress!" and Orthogenesis, the non-standard view that evolution progresses along straight and predetermined lines from "lower" to "higher". Essentially that's a Medieval worldview, the Great chain of being, from the inorganic world at the bottom (here, the right) up to "Man" (left) and on up to angels with God at the top. It really isn't a great help to have that stuff all over dozens of supposedly modern and unbiased evolution articles, so I'm opposed to its use anywhere on Wikipedia. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:24, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
@Chiswick Chap and Azcolvin429: Thank you for your comments - well-stated imo - yes - *entirely* agree - no problem whatsoever - however - seems there should be some very basic visual way of presenting a simple overview of Life on Earth in order to better WP:BALANCE, in appropriate articles, the 10k yo worldview held (afaik) by many (40% adults in US?)[2][3] - suggestions welcome - (as to "lower to higher": perhaps "simple to complex"[1] would be better? (see graph on right) - my related cmts on talk-abiogenesis; my somewhat related NYT cmts[4]) (as to the Geologic Record: seems my created Geologic templates (2016) may have been a bit too detailed for Wikipedia at the time they were posted) - iac - Thanks again for your comments - and - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 14:05, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
References
- ^ a b Sharov, Alexei A. (12 June 2006). "Genome increase as a clock for the origin and evolution of life". Biology Direct. 1: 1–17. doi:10.1186/1745-6150-1-17. PMC 1526419 . Retrieved 21 November 2017.
- ^ Ghose, Tia (5 June 2014). "4 in 10 Americans Believe God Created Earth 10,000 Years Ago". LiveScience. Retrieved 21 November 2017.
- ^ Green, Emma (23 November 2014). "You Can't Educate People Into Believing in Evolution". The Atlantic. Retrieved 21 November 2017.
- ^ Bogdan, Dennis (22 March 2013). "Comment - Universe *Pulls* Life To Complexity?". The New York Times. Retrieved 21 November 2017.
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- Simple to complex still carries the progressionist, orthogenetic baggage around with it. What the graph and timelines don't show is that the "simple" Archaea and Bacteria contain far more phyla than everything else put together, and have survived and diversified all the while. As soon as you say "at date X 'complex' life evolves" you are implying stages of progress. What's actually been happening is not a linear sequence with any onward, upward direction, but a many-fold branching in an ever-increasing number of directions. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:07, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
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- If it goes anywhere, maybe Introduction to evolution. I agree with Chiswick Chap in that it shows unrealistic progress. Furthermore, it leaves out a great number of animal groups, represents mammals twice, and ignores the most abundant organisms on Earth: insects. Ending with humans is a rather anthropocentric conception of evolution as if all things eventually, with purpose, give rise to us. I’d argue that it represents the opposite of the evolution of life on earth. It mimics the widely disregarded idea of the great-chain-of-being. It ignored the important aspect of the branching tree of life. Andrew Z. Colvin • Talk 17:28, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
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- As if we wanted to introduce people to evolution with a wrong conception of what it does. In case anyone has any lurking attachment to the idea of progress in evolution, they should consult Ruse, Michael (1996). Monad to man: the Concept of Progress in Evolutionary Biology. Harvard University Press. ISBN 978-0-674-03248-4.. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:39, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
- BRIEF Followup - yes - also agree with recent comments - my purpose with the timeline (albeit somewhat simplified) was to provide the uninitiated (most Wikipedia readers?) with a stepping-stone-of-sorts, via of wikilinks, to articles of cited details, and then perhaps, to the responsible scientific literature, including more sophisticated (branching?) views of evolution - perhaps there's better ways to accomplish this - re anthropocentrism: reminds me of another of my NYT comments[1] - which may suggest a related anthropocentric bias of a less considered sort - iac - Thanks again for the recent comments - and - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 18:45, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
- As if we wanted to introduce people to evolution with a wrong conception of what it does. In case anyone has any lurking attachment to the idea of progress in evolution, they should consult Ruse, Michael (1996). Monad to man: the Concept of Progress in Evolutionary Biology. Harvard University Press. ISBN 978-0-674-03248-4.. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:39, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
References
- ^ Bogdan, Dennis (17 June 2008). "Comment - Humans Are Best In The Universe?". The New York Times. Archived from the original on 3 October 2015. Retrieved 21 November 2017.
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- Like this image, perhaps, if the 1837 portrayal is "more sophisticated". Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:53, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
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@Azcolvin429, Chiswick Chap, and Dunkleosteus77: FWIW - seems the images-timeline is interpretable - originally, the images-timeline was intended to be a selected series of notable events in the timeline of life on earth - and useful, as a navigational aid, via of wikilinks, to those events - nonetheless - as discussed above, the timeline could be interpreted as a statement of evolution, although not originally intended as such, esp in evolution-related articles - however - the images-timeline may be understood to be less a statement of evolution in articles that are less related to evolution I would think - and perhaps useful to those articles, as a navigational aid, as presented above - Comments Welcome - in any case - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 12:09, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- Sorry, but no. The clear and ever-present interpretation of a straight line of images is that evolution proceeds from "low" and "primitive" in a linear fashion towards "higher" and more "advanced" forms. It does not, it branches; and the "simple, low" life-forms (Archaea, Bacteria) form the overwhelming majority both in numbers and in diversity. Worse, the clear implication is that evolution proceeds in such a straight line because it is directed to do so by some life force or deity in a guided process. It does not, it is opportunistic and unguided. Far from being "useful" in any science article, progressionist sequence imagery is actively unhelpful and counter-productive. Readers can, unfortunately, very readily take any sequence to mean progress, and indeed a common usage of the word "evolution" is as a synonym for progress, as in the evolution of the jet engine. We must therefore take extreme care not to mislead. We should not use anything that implies that we endorse such views anywhere on Wikipedia.
- The purpose of Wikipedia is not to provide a home for artwork, and the purpose of artwork is not to decorate articles. Rather, we should be looking at the articles and finding ways, if any are needed, to put across their message as clearly as possible. Since we agree that it is dangerous to use sequence imagery which gives a totally wrong, misleading, and confusing message, it is time to put the progressionist sequence type of images to bed, once and for all. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:38, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
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- Thank you for your comments - yes - entirely agree - however - seems a particular point-of-view is being presented re "a straight line of images" - which, in the end, may (or may not ) be the only interpretation of this particular series of images - afaik - the noted events actually happened - and - at the dates noted (as best as can be determined at the moment) - these are simply sourced facts of the matter - and notable ones - wikilinked to more cited factual details for further clarification, if the reader is interested - this seems to be a worthy purpose of Wikipedia - to present facts and clarify such facts with other relevant sourced facts - in a WP:NPOV way - interpreting facts with a particular point-of-view may be an entirely different matter - (as to Progress: reminds me of another of my published comments which may be somewhat relevant[1]) (as to Artwork: images may be a helpful way to better communicate facts and related ideas - maybe moreso for some than others) - in any regards - Thanks again for your comments - they're greatly appreciated - Comments by other editors are also welcome - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 15:02, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
References
- ^ Bogdan, Dennis (8 December 2008). "Comment - Humankind's 'Progress'". Pittsburgh Tribune-Review. Retrieved 4 December 2017.
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- in that case there already is a (more specific) timeline, albeit with less pictures, in the article {{Life timeline}}. For future reference, asterisks and italics are used to sound sarcastic when typing User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 20:49, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- @Dunkleosteus77: Thank you for your comment - and suggestion - astericks and italics used for emphasis - now rm (to rm possible unintended slights) - yes - agreed re timelines - (ie, {{Human timeline}} & {{Life timeline}} & {{Nature timeline}} ) - which I created and/or substantially developed some time ago - the above images-timeline and related others (with pictures) arose, to some extent, from these particular timelines - iac - Thanks again for your comments - and - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 22:18, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- in that case there already is a (more specific) timeline, albeit with less pictures, in the article {{Life timeline}}. For future reference, asterisks and italics are used to sound sarcastic when typing User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 20:49, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
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How about a gallery of transitional species? --A D Monroe III(talk) 21:28, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for the suggestion - may consider transitional species further at some later opportunity - thank you nonetheless - it's appreciated - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 22:35, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- I'm all in favour of diagrams and photographs, having adding many myself, but they have to convey the correct message. Darwin's own illustration shows that the task is possible. The discussion would be much improved if it were free of the trivialisation created by exclamation marks, asterisks, random exhortations to enjoy ourselves, and smiley faces, however. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:49, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for your comments - and opinions - yes - agreed - seems diagrams and photographs may be worthy improvements to articles - as well as - worthy additions to discussions - of course - other editors may (or may not) agree w/ a particular instance - and/or - share the same pov - nonetheless - hope this helps in some way. Drbogdan (talk) 13:45, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
- Should the image of, for example, mammals depict one from today or one from 200 mya? User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 14:08, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for your comments - and opinions - yes - agreed - seems diagrams and photographs may be worthy improvements to articles - as well as - worthy additions to discussions - of course - other editors may (or may not) agree w/ a particular instance - and/or - share the same pov - nonetheless - hope this helps in some way. Drbogdan (talk) 13:45, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
- I'm all in favour of diagrams and photographs, having adding many myself, but they have to convey the correct message. Darwin's own illustration shows that the task is possible. The discussion would be much improved if it were free of the trivialisation created by exclamation marks, asterisks, random exhortations to enjoy ourselves, and smiley faces, however. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:49, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
References
- ^ a b Welsh, Jennifer (24 August 2011). "Skinny 'Shrew' Is Oldest True Mammal". LiveScience. Retrieved 5 December 2017.
Your reasoning for including an image of a modern rabbit above the text "200 Mya" is precisely the objections that other editors seem to have for including this gallery of images: it's attempting to present a complex topic imprecisely. Why is simplification of this topic even necessary? There are many, many articles about this topic that readers can gleam information from and a topic being complex shouldn't inherently require simplification, especially if inaccurate or misleading. Reversions that you linked to at the top of this section were entirely appropriate and should not need a discussion to reveal consensus… the gallery was not relevant to the articles and especially in the sections that you placed them in. I'm disappointed to have found these images just now on History of Earth, in place since mid-Nov at the very bottom of the article with absolutely no context. Interpreting facts with a particular point-of-view is not the issue here.
I don't believe that italics used for emphasis is inherently sarcastic. It is, however, probably unnecessary in the beginnings of a conversation and more appropriate when someone is not getting the point – see my use in the paragraph above. – Rhinopias (talk) 00:26, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
- @Rhinopias: FWIW - Thank you for your comments - please understand that it's entirely ok with me to rv/rm/mv/ce any of my edits - including the gallery above - and regardless of any reasoning I may present - esp if there's WP:CONSENSUS from other editors of course - no problem whatsoever - if, for example, others agree to substitute an image of a Juamaia for the image of a Rabbit instead in the gallery above, to make the gallery more accurate, that's entirely ok with me - after all - according to WP:OWN: All Wikipedia content—articles, categories, templates, and other types of pages—is edited collaboratively. - afaik - the test of an edit is if other editors agree the edit is ok - and represents an improvement to the article - as to the History of Earth article: an image overview of Life on Earth seemed to be appropriate to me at the time to a History of Earth - this edit has now been rv - seems the gallery may have been in the article for a long time - and - afaik - may (or may not?) qualify for WP:EDITCONSENSUS - nonetheless - I offer no challenge to the rv - and in some ways - based on the above talk-page discussion(s), happen to agree with it atm - hope this helps in some way. Drbogdan (talk) 02:13, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
- WP:EDITCONSENSUS doesn't specify a time frame in which an unchallenged or un-built-upon edit becomes consensus. It's elaborated in WP:SILENCE that "silence is the weakest form of consensus". A more elaborate edit summary than "relevant adds/adjs" to more clearly indicate the addition you were making to these articles may have attracted attention sooner, but it can't be expected that all additions made by established editors on lower profile articles are challenged—if they're going to be challenged—in a pre-determined amount of time.
- This is going off topic. My purpose in commenting was to simply express my support for the position that other editors have voiced. Rhinopias (talk) 16:23, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
- Yes - agree with your comments - including your suggestion for better edit summaries, although many of my edits (maybe most?) contain summaries that can be very detailed => one very recent example. Drbogdan (talk) 16:37, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
- Drbogdan, I cannot even parse most of your comments, but please stop spamming random sets of images across pages. Try to work on article content, and if you must focus on imagery, try to limit your additions to images that are actually relevant to the article topic, and pick them on a case-by-case basis, based on what images are already present on a given page. Your edit to KIC 8462852 was fine, with or without summary, as it was relevant to the actual topic of the article in question. --dab (𒁳) 13:20, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
- @Dbachmann: Yes - agreed - no problem whatsoever - Thanks. Drbogdan (talk) 16:38, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
- I feel I need to expand and re-emphasize my suggestion that started this particular thread. Of the images originally suggested, some pics are not directly related to evolution. "Earth" and "water" even pre-date all evolution (this article is about biological evolution only, not planetary etc.). Of the pics involving biology, they emphasize more "complete" forms, where evolution slows down or even stalls (pics of animals accepted even by anti-evolution Young Earth creationists). To better demonstrate active evolution specifically, I've suggested showing transitional species (ones defining the start of a new clade, rather than its high water mark). The suggestion of using first mammal rather than a rabbit is a example of that.
- To add to this idea, perhaps include pics of notable moments in evolution, such as Cambrian explosion or Extinction events. In general, extinctions show more about evolution than highlighting the members of the very few surviving clades. (While the Oxygen Holocaust was an extinction event, and an Oxygen pic was proposed, I think it would be hard to get a pic showing how a nice blue sky almost killed everything.) --A D Monroe III(talk) 18:40, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
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- A D Monroe III: it would be really helpful if you could take a look at the concept of Orthogenesis (directed evolution) a little, maybe reading around it a bit, to get some background here. Ideas like "completeness" are at best poorly defined, at worst surrogates for "progress" and the existence of "higher" forms. We really mustn't allow the anti-evolutionists to paint us into a totally erroneous corner by making it look as if we think that evolution runs along straight-line, predetermined railway tracks. Actually, it branches freely in all directions, and early forms such as Archaea and Bacteria still dominate the world's species list. Anything that says "at such-and-such a date progress went upwards a notch to achieve the next step of progress towards vertebrates and then mammals and then humans (and then angels, archangels and finally God, presumably) is unacceptable. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:49, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
- Sigh. Yes, I know all this. But not every reader does, and these generic pics show only generic concepts, thus we should be aware of what they promote. These pics are designed for those who aren't experts, agreed? If so, we need to choose pics that help those who might have some very common misconceptions. If not, then we do not need these pics at all. If showing simple pics of very basic concepts isn't good, so be it; let's drop this and remove them. I'd be fine with that. Please let's discuss the purpose of the pics and how to achieve that, rather than how to be helpful. --A D Monroe III(talk) 19:10, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
- Glad to hear it; and indeed, not every reader does, so it's vital we don't show "generic concepts" which are broad, sweeping, widely applicable, and wrong. It's not so much the choice of pics as the choice of format: a straight line unfortunately tells the uninformed human brain that here be progress. So we mustn't use a line. Non-linear formats like cladograms are absolutely fine, and they can be illustrated with photos if desired. Single photos beside the text are fine too, of course. It's the "Progress" (with capital P) that's the problem here. So I'd agree, let's just remove them, we're far better off without them. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:21, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
- We could remove any progression (random order?), but any line of pics does tend to imply an order, even if none was intended. If we can't avoid implying misconceptions to non-experts, and the pics are only for non-experts, then agree on removal. --A D Monroe III(talk) 20:32, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
- Glad to hear it; and indeed, not every reader does, so it's vital we don't show "generic concepts" which are broad, sweeping, widely applicable, and wrong. It's not so much the choice of pics as the choice of format: a straight line unfortunately tells the uninformed human brain that here be progress. So we mustn't use a line. Non-linear formats like cladograms are absolutely fine, and they can be illustrated with photos if desired. Single photos beside the text are fine too, of course. It's the "Progress" (with capital P) that's the problem here. So I'd agree, let's just remove them, we're far better off without them. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:21, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
- Sigh. Yes, I know all this. But not every reader does, and these generic pics show only generic concepts, thus we should be aware of what they promote. These pics are designed for those who aren't experts, agreed? If so, we need to choose pics that help those who might have some very common misconceptions. If not, then we do not need these pics at all. If showing simple pics of very basic concepts isn't good, so be it; let's drop this and remove them. I'd be fine with that. Please let's discuss the purpose of the pics and how to achieve that, rather than how to be helpful. --A D Monroe III(talk) 19:10, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
- A D Monroe III: it would be really helpful if you could take a look at the concept of Orthogenesis (directed evolution) a little, maybe reading around it a bit, to get some background here. Ideas like "completeness" are at best poorly defined, at worst surrogates for "progress" and the existence of "higher" forms. We really mustn't allow the anti-evolutionists to paint us into a totally erroneous corner by making it look as if we think that evolution runs along straight-line, predetermined railway tracks. Actually, it branches freely in all directions, and early forms such as Archaea and Bacteria still dominate the world's species list. Anything that says "at such-and-such a date progress went upwards a notch to achieve the next step of progress towards vertebrates and then mammals and then humans (and then angels, archangels and finally God, presumably) is unacceptable. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:49, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
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- @Dbachmann: Yes - agreed - no problem whatsoever - Thanks. Drbogdan (talk) 16:38, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
- Drbogdan, I cannot even parse most of your comments, but please stop spamming random sets of images across pages. Try to work on article content, and if you must focus on imagery, try to limit your additions to images that are actually relevant to the article topic, and pick them on a case-by-case basis, based on what images are already present on a given page. Your edit to KIC 8462852 was fine, with or without summary, as it was relevant to the actual topic of the article in question. --dab (𒁳) 13:20, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
- Yes - agree with your comments - including your suggestion for better edit summaries, although many of my edits (maybe most?) contain summaries that can be very detailed => one very recent example. Drbogdan (talk) 16:37, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Cladogram pic?
Seems that, based on the above discussion, the following cladogram (with images) (featured in the Ape article) may be an example of a more acceptable image presentation.
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Other examples found (so far) might be the ones in the Hymenoptera article - afaik these examples could be templates-of-sorts for other efforts. Drbogdan (talk) 21:41, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
- And yet that picture still manages to convey the subtle message of progress by the vertical placement of the images combined with their horizontal placement. The simple fact is, ALL extant species are equally "evolved". All species alive today are the result of same amount of something like 4.3 billion years of evolution. To suggest, however subtly, anything else does our readers a great disservice. - Nick Thorne talk 03:40, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
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- Yes, Nick Thorne has it exactly right, it is easily the most misleading cladogram I've ever seen, by a large margin. A D Monroe III was correct with "any line of pics does tend to imply an order, even if none was intended", and I'd add "even if lip-service is paid to phylogenetic branching". This sorry apology for a cladogram looks exactly like a ladder rising from the "lesser apes" (ah, they must be lower on the evolutionary ladder, then) to the "great apes" (not a clade) and onwards and upwards to the pinnacle of evolution, H. not very sapiens. All the richness and diversity, all the branches which went extinct, all traces of subtle and long-lived adaptations, all are swept away to form a disgraceful great ape chain of being. Dr Bogdan, one word, please: STOP. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:19, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- @Chiswick Chap: Please WP:AGF - to be clear - I had nothing whatsoever to do with creating the cladograms noted above - others did (one example) - perhaps someone with the suitable coding ability could present (WP:JUSTDOIT?) an actual example of the type of envisioned cladogram (with images?) that would be acceptable? Thanks. Drbogdan (talk) 14:13, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- I assumed you made it, which was a reasonable guess given that you put it here, and I assumed you thought it acceptable, also a likely guess given that you put it here. My opinion of cladograms of that sort you know already, and I'm very glad you don't approve of this particular one either. My opinion of the harm done by scattering linear sequences of species or lifeforms across multiple evolution articles you also know. I remain concerned that you are still minded to try to insert such things, and I'm happy to explain why they're harmful to anyone who needs an explanation. Decent cladograms show rich branching with no implication that one branch is "higher" than any other. There are many examples, try at Teleost for instance. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:24, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks - actually, we're more in agreement with all this than you may understand atm - just trying to clarify our shared goals - yes - your noted Teleost helps. Drbogdan (talk) 14:55, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- What are those goals? Adding pics or diagrams can certainly benefit an article, but they do not inherently do so. Such supporting materials are meant to support something in the article, such as to support the explanation of a particular complex or abstract text-dense concept in a more recognizable way. Here, I'm missing the specific improvement being sought. Can we state what concept, idea, issue or such is being targeted for adding supporting material? --A D Monroe III(talk) 15:17, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- AFAIK - primary goal is to present article content as well as possible - with or without imagery, diagrams, related supporting materials or the like. Drbogdan (talk) 15:26, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- So, what content, specifically? If it's the whole of evolution together, that's going to be hard to capture in pics. What points would pics better cover than text? We need a clear statement of the issue(s), or at least some examples of points, before we can usefully discuss it. --A D Monroe III(talk) 15:50, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
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- @User:A D Monroe III - Thanks - seems my recent efforts with the images-timeline above could have been better - although my templates ({{Human timeline}} / {{Life timeline}} / {{Nature timeline}}) seemed to have been more acceptable - ideas from other editors are welcome - my very recent efforts are elsewhere at the moment - ie, if interested => GW170817 (gravitational wave) / KIC 8462852 (oddly dimming star) / ULAS J1342+0928 (most distant quasar/supermassive black hole newly detected). Drbogdan (talk) 16:15, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, it still feels, despite protestations that Brexit-like we all agree really, that this is a solution in search of a problem. Wikipedia's evolution articles are clearly written, well cited, and very carefully illustrated. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:58, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- Yes - I agree with this as well atm. Drbogdan (talk) 16:15, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, I see evident good faith and competence from all here, and have found that assumed by everyone involved. Also, I actually think the article could benefit from a gallery of some sort, but also that it's difficult to get right. Evolution is a controversial subject (for reasons that escape me) with a lot of misunderstandings flung about. Some wide-focused pics that address some of these could help, but they also could make things worse by "dumbing-down" evolution. So, yeah, agree on setting this aside ATM. --A D Monroe III(talk) 17:42, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- Yes - I agree with this as well atm. Drbogdan (talk) 16:15, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
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- So, what content, specifically? If it's the whole of evolution together, that's going to be hard to capture in pics. What points would pics better cover than text? We need a clear statement of the issue(s), or at least some examples of points, before we can usefully discuss it. --A D Monroe III(talk) 15:50, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- AFAIK - primary goal is to present article content as well as possible - with or without imagery, diagrams, related supporting materials or the like. Drbogdan (talk) 15:26, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- What are those goals? Adding pics or diagrams can certainly benefit an article, but they do not inherently do so. Such supporting materials are meant to support something in the article, such as to support the explanation of a particular complex or abstract text-dense concept in a more recognizable way. Here, I'm missing the specific improvement being sought. Can we state what concept, idea, issue or such is being targeted for adding supporting material? --A D Monroe III(talk) 15:17, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks - actually, we're more in agreement with all this than you may understand atm - just trying to clarify our shared goals - yes - your noted Teleost helps. Drbogdan (talk) 14:55, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- I assumed you made it, which was a reasonable guess given that you put it here, and I assumed you thought it acceptable, also a likely guess given that you put it here. My opinion of cladograms of that sort you know already, and I'm very glad you don't approve of this particular one either. My opinion of the harm done by scattering linear sequences of species or lifeforms across multiple evolution articles you also know. I remain concerned that you are still minded to try to insert such things, and I'm happy to explain why they're harmful to anyone who needs an explanation. Decent cladograms show rich branching with no implication that one branch is "higher" than any other. There are many examples, try at Teleost for instance. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:24, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- @Chiswick Chap: Please WP:AGF - to be clear - I had nothing whatsoever to do with creating the cladograms noted above - others did (one example) - perhaps someone with the suitable coding ability could present (WP:JUSTDOIT?) an actual example of the type of envisioned cladogram (with images?) that would be acceptable? Thanks. Drbogdan (talk) 14:13, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, Nick Thorne has it exactly right, it is easily the most misleading cladogram I've ever seen, by a large margin. A D Monroe III was correct with "any line of pics does tend to imply an order, even if none was intended", and I'd add "even if lip-service is paid to phylogenetic branching". This sorry apology for a cladogram looks exactly like a ladder rising from the "lesser apes" (ah, they must be lower on the evolutionary ladder, then) to the "great apes" (not a clade) and onwards and upwards to the pinnacle of evolution, H. not very sapiens. All the richness and diversity, all the branches which went extinct, all traces of subtle and long-lived adaptations, all are swept away to form a disgraceful great ape chain of being. Dr Bogdan, one word, please: STOP. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:19, 8 December 2017 (UTC)