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:::: My proposal is a ''strategy'' for managing the market overall, by doing what we can internally to promote [[self regulation]] by "white hat" paid editors, and communicating to the world at large that there are black hat paid editors who should be avoided and white hat paid editors who (at least say) they follow policy and are community members in good standing. The Count's proposal is a ''tactic'' to play whack-a-mole. fwiw it would be probably involve committing fraud (it is one thing for cops to run a "sting" and a different thing for people to con each other), and I doubt that WMF or the editing community per se would formally do it. [[User:Jytdog|Jytdog]] ([[User talk:Jytdog|talk]]) 15:43, 13 July 2017 (UTC) |
:::: My proposal is a ''strategy'' for managing the market overall, by doing what we can internally to promote [[self regulation]] by "white hat" paid editors, and communicating to the world at large that there are black hat paid editors who should be avoided and white hat paid editors who (at least say) they follow policy and are community members in good standing. The Count's proposal is a ''tactic'' to play whack-a-mole. fwiw it would be probably involve committing fraud (it is one thing for cops to run a "sting" and a different thing for people to con each other), and I doubt that WMF or the editing community per se would formally do it. [[User:Jytdog|Jytdog]] ([[User talk:Jytdog|talk]]) 15:43, 13 July 2017 (UTC) |
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* Count Iblis's proposal above is original and interesting — it might be a way to differentiate between good actors (those who indicate intent to follow NPOV and verifiability) from bad actors (those who just seek to bill a few hours of work for whatever purpose. There is a difference. Ultimately, however, no such sting operation would have teeth because it is such a simple matter to edit around blocks. Until we have some sort of meaningful registration policy and a requirement of sign-in-to-edit, all this concern about paid editing is akin to a dog chasing his tail. Ain't gonna catch it and it ain't going away... [[User:Carrite|Carrite]] ([[User talk:Carrite|talk]]) 16:00, 13 July 2017 (UTC) |
* Count Iblis's proposal above is original and interesting — it might be a way to differentiate between good actors (those who indicate intent to follow NPOV and verifiability) from bad actors (those who just seek to bill a few hours of work for whatever purpose. There is a difference. Ultimately, however, no such sting operation would have teeth because it is such a simple matter to edit around blocks. Until we have some sort of meaningful registration policy and a requirement of sign-in-to-edit, all this concern about paid editing is akin to a dog chasing his tail. Ain't gonna catch it and it ain't going away... [[User:Carrite|Carrite]] ([[User talk:Carrite|talk]]) 16:00, 13 July 2017 (UTC) |
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I think black and white lines should be drawn. No paid editors, period. Being paid to create/edit articles for small companies that subscribe to Entrepreneur magazine is bad enough, but we also have a situation where large biotech and pharmaceutical companies are paying WP editors for both reputation management and paying to demonize their competition. The line will be crossed if it isn't a hard one. [[User:LesVegas|LesVegas]] ([[User talk:LesVegas|talk]]) 17:15, 13 July 2017 (UTC) |
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== Support for editing through mobile interface == |
== Support for editing through mobile interface == |
Revision as of 17:15, 13 July 2017
2nd recent article in Entrepreneur magazine promoting paid editing
Last month we discussed the Amy Osmond Cook piece in Entrepreneur, What I Learned When a Wikipedia Troll Deleted My Page". This month, there is another piece promoting paid editing, "Entrepreneurs Are Paying Wikipedia Editors to Create Profile Pages", which we have been discussing at WT:COI here.
Three things.
a) Jimbo, as the more or less official face of Wikipedia to the world, will you please consider talking to the publishers of that magazine?
b) The other thing is that the reporter apparently reached out to a WMF communications person, Samantha Lien. I don't know what Samantha communicated, or how that conversation went, or how well it was reported, but what got into the article was OK but not great. It was this -- people are “'strongly discouraged from editing articles directly about themselves or [about] a subject they’re closely affiliated with,' says Samantha Lien, a Wikimedia Foundation communications manager. 'This is known as editing with a conflict of interest,' she says, and it’s something Wikipedia’s volunteer editors spend a lot of time policing for."
In my view WMF communications people should have a clear and simple message about advocacy editing, including COI and paid editing, that puts it in a context. ~Something~ like:
- Wikipedia's crazy and beautiful mission is to provide the public with articles that provide accepted knowledge, for free, through a volunteer community of editors. It has succeeded beyond what anybody could have imagined
- This makes it a target for all kinds of abuse - people wanting to "get the word out" about any number of causes, companies, products, etc. Even universities do it. These people are like industrial polluters who pour waste into rivers. Parts of Wikipedia are like Lake Eerie when it was so polluted that it caught fire. Parts of Wikipedia are very clean and solid.
- For people who want to get content into WP but don't know how, there are ways to explore whether a topic is appropriate for WP. There is a help desk (WP:Help desk) where they can ask for help, and there are paid editors who at least say that they follow WP's policies and guidelines. (see their statement). There are also paid editors who hide what they do and are like people today who sneak around and dump waste in our national forests.
- Please don't pollute Wikipedia or support people who do. Volunteers spend a tremendous amount of time cleaning up pollution trying to maintain WP as a useful resource for people who want to learn, and this cleanup takes their time away from building good content.
Something like that. This is perhaps something that the board could discuss with the ED who could then get the communications people on board with the message, so there is a clear and consistent line?
c) Finally, I embedded this in what I wrote above, but I am starting to arrive at a view that we should start pointing to the fact that there are paid editors who at least say that they consistently follow the policies and guidelines. In the absence of information about where people can go for help, the undisclosed paid editing ecosystem just thrives. WMF and the editing community can perhaps starve it by pointing people elsewhere. I am not saying endorse them, but I am saying point to paid editors who follow the Statement. Complicated I know, but the world of paid editors is not going away. Jytdog (talk) 02:18, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- Please also see this proposal.... Jytdog (talk) 02:29, 8 July 2017 (UTC) (did it myself, per below Jytdog (talk) 03:47, 8 July 2017 (UTC))
- Jimbo doesn't need to step in everytime someone writes a blog post about paid editing. Comms is doing just fine. Sometimes, you present a simple, clear message to reporters and they don't recount it the way you would prefer, or just plain get it wrong. Gamaliel (talk) 02:57, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- As I said, I don't know what happened in the interview. What we can do is make sure that WMF communications understands the reality of advocacy editing in WP and is able to put it in context. I had already emailed Samantha to learn about what happened but she is travelling now. Btw I emailed the executive editor of Entrepreneur myself, as I was worried that they are setting up a regular theme and I don't know what jimbo may or may not do. They (happliy) replied right away and said the two articles were just a coincidence. Jytdog (talk) 03:47, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of articles on Wikipedia paid editing view the practice negatively. At l;east that's my recollection. It might be useful to keep a record of all those articles someplace, as they appear. Coretheapple (talk) 16:40, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- In an ideal world anyone tempted to pay for article creation would be forced to read Wikipedia:An article about yourself isn't necessarily a good thing. Unfortunately that is not possible. But we can promote the observations therein to the press, in hopes that people will pick up on the clue. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 17:08, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- Good point. I certainly agree that proactive p.r. would be a very good idea, rather than the WMF merely responding to press inquiries. Jimbo or some other WMF person should write articles and opeds decrying these paid editing mills and opposing paid editing. Coretheapple (talk) 17:50, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- The idea is that an appeal to high-minded principles like "the integrity of Wikipedia" may fall on deaf ears, whereas an appeal to self interest (i.e., your article can turn around and bite you) often is more effective. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:39, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- The problem is that self-interest only works in instances in which the subject is marginal and makes a fuss about getting in. If the subject is notable, then it does make sense to either create an article oneself or pay one to do so. There is no inherent disadvantage to hiring paid editors. Paid articles are not flagged for the reader. Still, you're right in principle and Jimbo or whomever can and should make that argument. It's hard for me as a volunteer to get worked up on this subject if the founder - who has a personal stake in the integrity of the project - is not sufficiently moved to speak out often against it,Coretheapple (talk) 13:36, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- The idea is that an appeal to high-minded principles like "the integrity of Wikipedia" may fall on deaf ears, whereas an appeal to self interest (i.e., your article can turn around and bite you) often is more effective. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:39, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- Good point. I certainly agree that proactive p.r. would be a very good idea, rather than the WMF merely responding to press inquiries. Jimbo or some other WMF person should write articles and opeds decrying these paid editing mills and opposing paid editing. Coretheapple (talk) 17:50, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- In an ideal world anyone tempted to pay for article creation would be forced to read Wikipedia:An article about yourself isn't necessarily a good thing. Unfortunately that is not possible. But we can promote the observations therein to the press, in hopes that people will pick up on the clue. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 17:08, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of articles on Wikipedia paid editing view the practice negatively. At l;east that's my recollection. It might be useful to keep a record of all those articles someplace, as they appear. Coretheapple (talk) 16:40, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- As I said, I don't know what happened in the interview. What we can do is make sure that WMF communications understands the reality of advocacy editing in WP and is able to put it in context. I had already emailed Samantha to learn about what happened but she is travelling now. Btw I emailed the executive editor of Entrepreneur myself, as I was worried that they are setting up a regular theme and I don't know what jimbo may or may not do. They (happliy) replied right away and said the two articles were just a coincidence. Jytdog (talk) 03:47, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- to risk beating a dead horse, i really think we should start being clear that there are paid editors who follow policies and guidelines, and those who don't, and encourage people to avoid those who don't. Jytdog (talk) 02:48, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, I know from direct interactions that there are promotional editors who follow the terms of use and write acceptable articles. I also know that these are a very small minority of paid editors, and that not all the editors who claim to follow the guideliens actually do soI would strongly object to the WMF or anyone giving the message that paid editing is acceptable, because it is sure to be misinterpreted. DGG ( talk ) 09:05, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- User:DGG. There is a fine line between encouraging paid editing, and pointing to people who at least say that they follow PAID, and what I am saying is the latter. We need to move past the discussion about "acceptable" or not - it happens and there is no way that we can stop it, with WP structured as it is. (The conversation about "acceptable" or "bad" is like the alcohol prohibition movement in the US - banning alcohol just promoted the activities of gangsters, right?) One reason I am encouraging formation of a guild or project is to have members of the guild/project police each other and throw out people who don't actually follow PAID. We of course will continue to do what we do, no matter what. Jytdog (talk) 14:32, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, I know from direct interactions that there are promotional editors who follow the terms of use and write acceptable articles. I also know that these are a very small minority of paid editors, and that not all the editors who claim to follow the guideliens actually do soI would strongly object to the WMF or anyone giving the message that paid editing is acceptable, because it is sure to be misinterpreted. DGG ( talk ) 09:05, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- While I respect our current consensus, and even clean up some blatant COI spam for which due to its inherent notability I can't argue for deletion, I can't stress enough how much we should not tolerate anyone making money out of the free work our volunteers provide to develop and maintain our legitimate content. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:48, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- we do tolerate it, just barely. That is because we cannot ban it, nor could we police a ban. I spend a lot of my time educating paid or otherwise conflicted editors how they can be good members of the community by honoring PAID and COI and the rest of the policies and guidelines, letter and spirit. We do get useful content from such people via their proposed articles and content. We also get way too much awful content added directly to articles by paid or otherwise conflicted editors who don't follow PAID/COI. It is not going away, and we should educate people about the difference between "white hat" and "black hat" paid editors. Jytdog (talk) 14:37, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- @Kudpung: re: "
we should not tolerate anyone making money out of the free work our volunteers provide
" – Content on most Wikimedia Foundation websites is licensed for redistribution under v3.0 of the Attribution and Share-alike Creative Commons licenses. This content is sourced from contributing volunteers and from resources with few or no copyright restrictions, such as copyleft material and works in the public domain. CC BY-SA 3.0 Unported License says that anyone is free to share & remix for any purpose, even commercially. Google and others are making money out of the free work our volunteers provide, and there's nothing we can do about it. We release those rights to them every time we click Save changes. wbm1058 (talk) 16:09, 11 July 2017 (UTC)- That's correct as far as it goes. Anybody can use our content for any reason, commercial or otherwise. But there is a huge difference between making money from using our content and making money by producing our content (e.g. by inserting hidden ads). Smallbones(smalltalk) 18:08, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- Nobody here disagrees with that. That is not the point of discussion. What I'm asking here, is whether we should start distinguishing between editors who say they follow PAID, and those who most definitely do not. In a way that is meaningful and public. This is about doing something different. Jytdog (talk)
- The discussions have been based upon a false categorization which is There are either paid editors or unpaid editors. That's like saying there are either employed people or unemployed people, when, in fact, a state of employment is usually quite fluid instead of stagnant. The only real solution to this problem is if every editor refuses to be stuck in either the paid or the unpaid category and, instead, embraces the reality that any and all editors, given the current situation, may be a paid or an unpaid editor any time they feel like it. Then, the policies and rules will be applied equally and no one should really care whether anyone is paid on a particular day at a particular time or not, and the whole issue becomes moot, as it is already in a round about way. Realityornot (talk) 03:18, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- mmm I cannot agree with that. COI matters and needs to be managed. Having a COI really does change what people do; this is just human nature. Jytdog (talk) 04:46, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Jytdog, I understand, it just seemed like there was no real solution or anything else to try, but now Count Iblis has come up with an idea, directly below, which at least at first blush, looks like it might be effective in an active and deterrent way. Realityornot (talk) 15:13, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- mmm I cannot agree with that. COI matters and needs to be managed. Having a COI really does change what people do; this is just human nature. Jytdog (talk) 04:46, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- The discussions have been based upon a false categorization which is There are either paid editors or unpaid editors. That's like saying there are either employed people or unemployed people, when, in fact, a state of employment is usually quite fluid instead of stagnant. The only real solution to this problem is if every editor refuses to be stuck in either the paid or the unpaid category and, instead, embraces the reality that any and all editors, given the current situation, may be a paid or an unpaid editor any time they feel like it. Then, the policies and rules will be applied equally and no one should really care whether anyone is paid on a particular day at a particular time or not, and the whole issue becomes moot, as it is already in a round about way. Realityornot (talk) 03:18, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Nobody here disagrees with that. That is not the point of discussion. What I'm asking here, is whether we should start distinguishing between editors who say they follow PAID, and those who most definitely do not. In a way that is meaningful and public. This is about doing something different. Jytdog (talk)
- That's correct as far as it goes. Anybody can use our content for any reason, commercial or otherwise. But there is a huge difference between making money from using our content and making money by producing our content (e.g. by inserting hidden ads). Smallbones(smalltalk) 18:08, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- We just need to weed out corrupt editors here and that can be done using sting operations. We can create an undercover Wiki-police force who'll pretend to be business owners who want to get favorable wiki-articles written about their businesses. The existence of this operation will be public knowledge, this will serve as a deterrent to not engage with improper paid editing as you won't know if the person you're dealing with is or isn't an undercover agent. Count Iblis (talk) 08:45, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- My views here are well-known already so I don't have a lot to add. My sense of it is that there is a growing consensus to take a few stronger steps to deal with the issue. The paid shills will scream, of course, but that is of little concern to us. I do think that there is one thing that I could do here, at least for Entrepreneur Magazine, and that is to submit to them a piece explaining why the advice in previous columns is very bad. The problem here is that Entrepreneur is really the perfect place for bad advice to cause us problems - it's a magazine that appeals to ambitious small companies who want to grow and who therefore probably aren't (yet) ready for a Wikipedia article, but who would love to have one.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:31, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- Count Iblis's proposal seems worthy of serious consideration, I believe. Realityornot (talk) 15:13, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- My proposal is a strategy for managing the market overall, by doing what we can internally to promote self regulation by "white hat" paid editors, and communicating to the world at large that there are black hat paid editors who should be avoided and white hat paid editors who (at least say) they follow policy and are community members in good standing. The Count's proposal is a tactic to play whack-a-mole. fwiw it would be probably involve committing fraud (it is one thing for cops to run a "sting" and a different thing for people to con each other), and I doubt that WMF or the editing community per se would formally do it. Jytdog (talk) 15:43, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- Count Iblis's proposal seems worthy of serious consideration, I believe. Realityornot (talk) 15:13, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- Count Iblis's proposal above is original and interesting — it might be a way to differentiate between good actors (those who indicate intent to follow NPOV and verifiability) from bad actors (those who just seek to bill a few hours of work for whatever purpose. There is a difference. Ultimately, however, no such sting operation would have teeth because it is such a simple matter to edit around blocks. Until we have some sort of meaningful registration policy and a requirement of sign-in-to-edit, all this concern about paid editing is akin to a dog chasing his tail. Ain't gonna catch it and it ain't going away... Carrite (talk) 16:00, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
I think black and white lines should be drawn. No paid editors, period. Being paid to create/edit articles for small companies that subscribe to Entrepreneur magazine is bad enough, but we also have a situation where large biotech and pharmaceutical companies are paying WP editors for both reputation management and paying to demonize their competition. The line will be crossed if it isn't a hard one. LesVegas (talk) 17:15, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
Support for editing through mobile interface
Dear sir, I got to know that you are founder . I hope i have reached the right place. Sir I am college student from India. I registered in your universally popular and treasure of informations website last year ,as I read this site since my childhood and your wikipedia is a saviour of lot of students across the world. I registered to contribute as much as I can , as you know respected sir a lot of people use mobile interface in fact I believe over 80 percentage of internet users over the world are mobile phone users, but sir as soon I registered I face lot of difficulties editing the site through phone ,even now I face it. First as am from non-programming background I struggled to learn wikimarkup. yes there are visual editor but it is not effective, as I love this project I didn't quit this and keep on spending my time by now I have patrolled 100s of pages and have 2000 plus contributions and some article creation mostly about the topics related to India, as I am more interested in India related things. Like me there are many people across the world who want to contribute but find extreme difficulties on mobile interface. And many don't know that Wikipedia could be edited , I request you to do some improvements in Wikipedia's software which can make mobile users more friendly towards the site and place pop-up of create account page so that people can know that wikipedia could be edited and thus it would bring more contributors to the site
Love and Much respect to you sir always. Anoptimistix (talk) 10:38, 11 July 2017 (UTC) Anoptimistix (talk) 10:38, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- Hello, Anoptimistix. I am not sure Jimbo has time to respond to all your comments, but he generally likes to hear from users about such issues. As for the mobile-phone interface, it varies depending on the type of cell phone being used, and phones are being improved (enlarged) faster than the Wikipedia MediaWiki software has been improved to simplify mobile phone use. The Android phones allow a "desktop View" which shows the full-page layout, as seen on desktop/laptop computers. However, entering text can be very tedious with a touch screen interface ("touch-scream"), and so use of a spellcheck word-completion feature to autofix the spelling of words can reduce the numerous typos; unfortunately, some mobile phones do not consider spelling of words with numeral digits, and so extra care must be taken when entering numbers on a touch-screen.
In general, it is far easier (50x faster?) to edit pages using a desktop computer, such as at a school, library, church or community center. Please note that for decades, computer scientists have confirmed that touch-screen computers are more tedious to use for text-entry than laptop/keyboard computers, due to the vastly increased speed of 10-finger typing and the 6x-20x wider screen space which can display a dozen pages side-by-side with small-text resolution.
In fact, when developing software, I often used 3 desktop computers, side-by-side, to compile software on one computer, while editing other software on another screen (with different copy/paste clipboards), plus running full-screen testcases on a 3rd screen while watching the intermittent status messages on all three. U.S. President Thomas Jefferson had a multi-book reader carousel which allowed him to read 4 or 5 books concurrently, by rotating around among all the open books on the spinning carousel. I would encourage you to get libraries or community centers to allow more people to have increased access to desktop computers, until mobile phones are advanced to have wider, folded-screens and then plug-in a full-key keyboard as an optional text interface with the touch-screen mode. Until then, it is much faster to open 20 narrow pages concurrently on a large desktop computer, and then switch among them to cross-check the data while copying text from various text-editor screens into those multiple pages. Otherwise, prolonged use of mobile-phone editing is like trying to enter text "through a keyhole" in a door, as confirmed by how long it takes to update 90 pages on a desktop versus phone edits. -Wikid77 (talk) 15:50, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- (talk page gnome) @Anoptimistix: A major issue is that those devices are primarily designed to be consumer platforms (to buy services, applications, access content, not produce). If your device supports Bluetooth or USB, I highly recommend investing in a portable keyboard which will help a lot. Thank you for your comment, —PaleoNeonate - 17:16, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- I suspect that Jim Heaphy might have advice on this matter. Carrite (talk) 19:54, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- Editing Wikipedia on a touch screen device is like doing the gardening with a teaspoon instead of a spade. A Bluetooth keyboard would help, but a laptop or desktop are the best ways to edit Wikipedia.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 10:11, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
There are some shortcomings with the media wiki interface on Wikipedia .The top suggestion in my lists of to-dos is allowing IP editors to access the talk page . I would also like to know if there is any way to revert another editor on Wikipedia.(For the last 2 weeks I have been searching for the same but I haven't found it ⮘RADICAL SODA(FORCE)⮚ 10:59, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Sunday July 16: New England Wiknic @ Cambridge, MA
Sunday July 16, 1-5pm: New England Wiknic | |
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Block in BG Wikipedia
Hello, in BG Wiki, my account was blocked indefinitely without having made any edits. Петър Михайлов (talk) 12:43, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- Your account was blocked for an unacceptable username and abuse of multiple accounts. General Ization Talk 12:48, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
But this block is incorrect. My name is appropriate. Петър Михайлов (talk) 13:01, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- Not sure why Петър Михайлов is an unacceptable username. Maybe it could be confused with this person [1][2] but Петър Михайлов (Peter Michaelson in English) isn't offensive. Clarification needed here.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 13:03, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- Or with Петър Михайлов и Ко ООД, which is the name of a company. —DoRD (talk) 13:04, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- At any rate, Петър Михайлов, you'll need to contest your block on bgwiki. Jimbo has no particular authority over blocks there. —DoRD (talk) 13:06, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
Петър Михайлов is the name of different people in Bulgaria. Петър Михайлов (talk) 13:13, 13 July 2017 (UTC)