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:::::::::I'm not sure about neo-paganism, but there are plenty of people who call themselves pagans. Including some respected academics. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 12:24, 25 November 2013 (UTC) |
:::::::::I'm not sure about neo-paganism, but there are plenty of people who call themselves pagans. Including some respected academics. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 12:24, 25 November 2013 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Of course, a more current problem would be that the term neopagan has now been replaced here at Wikipedia with modern pagan.[[User:Reigndog|Reigndog]] ([[User talk:Reigndog|talk]]) 23:15, 12 June 2014 (UTC) |
::::::::::Of course, a more current problem would be that the term neopagan has now been replaced here at Wikipedia with modern pagan.[[User:Reigndog|Reigndog]] ([[User talk:Reigndog|talk]]) 23:15, 12 June 2014 (UTC) |
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::: Thought I'd weigh in here. The naming is problematic, on several levels. Firstly, in that the Via Sacra Privita is specifically Italic; there are arguably some Italo-Romans who are perhaps the better studied, and the naming likely reflects this as it would be the more academically used term. Roman polytheists incorporate a wide variety of ethnic traditions (Gallo-Roman, Graeco-Roman, Aegypto-Roman, et cetera), though there is obviously an Italic undercurrent through all of these traditions, since the locus is Roman tradition. Romans, then and today, are syncretic in theology and praxis, and never have thought of themselves as "either / or". |
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The problem primarily lays in that these terms aren't concretely defined, even within the community itself. Neopagan is an ambiguous term, that's applied quite broadly to any pagans post-dating the rise of Christianity; in this sense, of course, they are neopagans. It also more is more specifically applied to those 'traditions' dating from the 19th century on. Most reconstructionists take umbrage with being included in this term for that reason. And, as most of you know, in every reconstructionist community, there are those traditionalist families who have ALWAYS been practising, however Christianised that practise may have become over the intervening centuries. While fewer in number than those in the Norse tradition, for example, the Roman tradition is no exception. I can personally attest to this. Families who have an unbroken tradition of practise would certainly dispute being "neo" anything. While most of those traditionalists are also reconstructionists, a tiny minority of them are not, and variously identify as both nominally Catholic and pagan. |
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So, how do we resolve this? I would propose dropping the moniker of "neopaganism" for the less-loaded "paganism". There's little chance of it being mistaken for ancient practise, as the latter is specifically labelled as such in the naming of other Roman religion articles. For the time being, it might be prudent to keep "Italo-Roman"; while not necessarily accurate, we can clarify this in the article itself. We also have the problem of citations from RS; this tradition is less studied than "Asatru" and "Hellenismos". There just simply isn't much in the way of sources as of yet, and so we run the risk of original research. Thoughts? [[User:Quinto Simmaco|Quinto Simmaco]] ([[User talk:Quinto Simmaco|talk]]) 03:50, 1 March 2015 (UTC) |
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Nova Roma?
Nova Roma's site says "Nova Roma is an international organization dedicated to the study and restoration of ancient Roman culture." Their membership may include recons, and it may be a locus of recon activity, but as an organization it claims to be cultural in nature. They actually sponsor or promote no recon activities on an organization-wide basis that I can see. Should they be removed from the list? Whogue (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:02, 12 November 2010 (UTC).
Changing the name of this article
It was not a good move to chage the name of this article from Roman polytheistic reconstructionism to Roman Way to the Gods. Roman polytheistic reconstructionism is a scientific, neutral and general term describing the very various movements that aim to worship the Roman deities, and it connets to the larger family of other polytheistic reconstructionisms. If some use the term "Roman Way to the Gods" it's up to them, and they can be mentioned in the article. But the title of the article should be reverted to the uniform and general term Roman polytheistic reconstructionism. --Gonda Attila (talk) 07:58, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry, I missed this comment when it was first made and have just seen it. But I entirely agree and feel that the previous name was more neutral and communicated the topic better. When I have time, and unless there is a serious objection here, I may well move the page back (leaving a redirect here so people will find the article either way.) Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 14:58, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- I am the user who moved the page, sometimes I don't log in. "Roman Way to the Gods" is the name of the Roman Religion in modern times in all its forms, it is used by all the different groups practicing the Roman cults today in Italy and Latin Europe, and it's not the name of a specific group. "Roman Polytheistic Reconstructionism" other than being excessively long and intricate is non-neutral, since many modern Italian groups of the "Roman Way" or "Cultus Deorum" reject the definition of "reconstructionism". --79.41.251.211 (talk) 15:56, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm going to return this page to its original name. Roman Way to the Gods is not a term that is found in any published source that I could find, nor is it consistent with how this family of articles is named in Wikipedia. There is a nest of articles under the main article Polytheistic reconstructionism and it makes no sense for all but one to follow the construction of the parent article. I realise that two for the old name of Roman polytheistic reconstructionism versus one for the new name is hardly a ringing consensus, but at least there has been some discussion. There was none before the original move at all! Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 20:30, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
- I am the user who moved the page, sometimes I don't log in. "Roman Way to the Gods" is the name of the Roman Religion in modern times in all its forms, it is used by all the different groups practicing the Roman cults today in Italy and Latin Europe, and it's not the name of a specific group. "Roman Polytheistic Reconstructionism" other than being excessively long and intricate is non-neutral, since many modern Italian groups of the "Roman Way" or "Cultus Deorum" reject the definition of "reconstructionism". --79.41.251.211 (talk) 15:56, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Really?
Roman Polytheistic Reconstructionism, known variously as the Roman Way to the Gods in Italian and Spanish …
Uh, "the Roman Way to the Gods" is plainly English, not Italian or Spanish. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:03, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
Article protected
Addition of such links must be justified per WP:RS and WP:ELNO; at the moment they are not. Due to the appearance of at least one extra account reverting to this version, I have protected the page without these links. Black Kite (talk) 14:09, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Article being updated
I am in the process of updating this article so please refrain from deleting large amounts of information without reason. Also, bear in mind that this is a religion based on passed down knowledge and tradition, it's rarely documented. LatinWolf (talk) 12:24, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
- Please don't add "Big text" at the start! 10metreh (talk) 12:25, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
- Do not add ANYTHING unless you have a reliable source for it. Otherwise, it will be deleted on sight. Burden is on YOU to find reliable sources and get consensus BEFORE readding. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 12:27, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
- As I have stated before, it is rare to find a "reliable" source for certain information. Religio Romana is a religion based on tradition and passed down knowledge. It might take some time to find some sources. LatinWolf (talk) 12:30, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
- Nobody is hurrying you. You have all the time in the world. Until then, you can work on this off-line or in your sandbox. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 13:43, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
- I see that you are a relative new editor. Welcome aboard! Sorry that I was harsh. My bad. Before you embark on this project, it would save you a lot of time and hassle in the long run if you carefully read and understood at least the following policies and guidelines: WP:V, WP:RS, WP:HISTRS, WP:NOR, WP:NPOV and WP:FRINGE. This is a controversial topic, so you might find that editors here may not be very forgiving. The best way to protect yourself is with reliable sources, and, when in doubt, by discussing your proposed changes here on the talk page first. If you have questions, you can always contact me, or any other experienced editor, on their talk page. Or you can ask questions at WP:TEAROOM. Again, welcome! And happy editing! Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 13:54, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
- As I have stated before, it is rare to find a "reliable" source for certain information. Religio Romana is a religion based on tradition and passed down knowledge. It might take some time to find some sources. LatinWolf (talk) 12:30, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
Stubbed as the sources do not discuss the subject
This was discussed at WP:ANI here. The article violated our policies of no original research and WP:VERIFIABILITY. In a nutshell, sources must discuss the subject of the article, and the sources didn't - they were about early Roman religion. Latin Wolf has called those reverting his attempt to restore the earlier flawed version vandals and has claimed to be updating it, although updating would be adding new material sourced to reliable sources (see WP:RS) that discuss Roman polytheistic reconstructionism. Dougweller (talk) 12:40, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
- I have replied to you here. Please do not make false accusations against me. I have never claimed that those who reverted were vandals. LatinWolf (talk) 12:52, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
- Most new editors don't understand our sourcing requirements, no problem and hopefully you can find reliable sources discussing this movement (but it may be not be easy). But at WP:RPP you did write "Persistent vandalism – In the process of being updated but keeps getting deleted." Dougweller (talk) 13:06, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
- I have replied to you here. Please do not make false accusations against me. I have never claimed that those who reverted were vandals. LatinWolf (talk) 12:52, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
In support of prod
The Historical Dictionary of New Religious Movements (2011) by George D. Chryssides doesn't have any other examples of Roman polytheistic reconstructionism besides Nova Roma. 5.12.68.204 (talk) 15:20, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
- The Italian version of this page gives the Ur Group (it:Gruppo di Ur) as a historical but defunct example. The extent to which this movement of Evola and Reghini was reconstructionist is unclear because English sources (including the translation of Evola's autobiography) don't quite label it as such [1] [2]. 5.12.68.204 (talk) 16:01, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
- That Italian Wikipedia page also lists some current Italian associations: Movimento Tradizionale Romano, Associazione Romània Quirites and Associazione Tradizionale Pietas. But all of those are cited to their own websites. I doubt that they have much in the way of notoriety, even in Italy. 5.12.68.204 (talk) 16:16, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
- Also Movimento Tradizionale Romano is listed in [3] as an extreme-right movement (similar to GRECE, I suspect), so the Italian Wikipedia info is pretty far from being objective, unless that movement has a namesake somehow. 5.12.68.204 (talk) 16:29, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
- Associazione Romània Quirites gets a couple of hits in Google Books [4], all of them Italian books I don't have easy access to. This one probably has some minimal notability in Italy. I wouldn't take the Italian Wikipedia at face value that this organization is reconstructionist, although it's probably more legit in their religious aspect than the previous one. 5.12.68.204 (talk) 16:41, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
- Finally Associazione Tradizionale Pietas gets no hits in Google books. It's also one of the links that gets regularly spammed to this page, so it's probably a new thing. 5.12.68.204 (talk) 16:41, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
- It seems to me that this discussion is prima facie grounds for an AFD review, and not speedy deletion. If it isn't obvious that the article shouldn't exist, it needs to be evaluated formally. Is there some other article, or some other title, for the topic of Neopagan reconstructionists who attempt to base their practice on authentic traditions of ancient Roman religion? Cynwolfe (talk) 18:37, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
- The Italian Wikipedia article is largely based on [5] written by one of the one co-founders of MTR. The Italian movements do not correspond precisely with the English notion of reconstrucionism, but to a more encompasing notion of "Roman Pagan tradition[alism]". I took a shot a more factual stub. 5.12.68.204 (talk) 19:30, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
- It seems to me that this discussion is prima facie grounds for an AFD review, and not speedy deletion. If it isn't obvious that the article shouldn't exist, it needs to be evaluated formally. Is there some other article, or some other title, for the topic of Neopagan reconstructionists who attempt to base their practice on authentic traditions of ancient Roman religion? Cynwolfe (talk) 18:37, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
- That Italian Wikipedia page also lists some current Italian associations: Movimento Tradizionale Romano, Associazione Romània Quirites and Associazione Tradizionale Pietas. But all of those are cited to their own websites. I doubt that they have much in the way of notoriety, even in Italy. 5.12.68.204 (talk) 16:16, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
Name change redux
I've reverted today's undiscussed name change and mentioned it at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Neopaganism. This sort of change on a controversial article requires discussion first. If it hadn't been edited for a long time, perhaps a change without discussion would be reasonable, but that isn't the case there. Dougweller (talk) 20:51, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think the article is controversial. Actually, I wrote in the edit summary the reason why the title "Italo-Roman Traditionalism" is better than "Roman polytheistic reconstructionism", which is used nowhere outside of Wikipedia. Academic research on the subject use that label, and Roman religion was not simply "polytheist". Actually, I had the intention to expand the article using the data available from the CESNUR.--Schwert von Feuer (talk) 21:00, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
- What "research"? I can exactly zero published academic works using the label "Italo-Roman Traditionalism".
- Don't forget WP:NAMINGCRITERIA. Article titles for similar or related topics should follow a consistent pattern.
- You are right that not all (though most) historical pagan traditions were strictly polytheist. However, calling any reconstructive system "traditionalism" is disingenuous. Such labelling is in line with the narrative put forward by a number of Neopagans trying to establish legitimacy. It implies a reclaiming of "the old ways", a return to X people's native tradition. While this is the aim of many modern groups, it is still never more than an approximation (that is to say a reconstruction) based on second and third-hand sources centuries after the pagan traditions of Europe were thoroughly crushed.
- I don't think reconstructionism should be removed from the title of this article or the whole batch of related articles. It very succinctly describes the nature of the topics it's connected to and enjoys wide use in academia as a neutral term which accomplishes that. Perhaps all the related article titles should have polytheis[tic/m] replaced with pagan[ism] per WP:MOSAT, but that is something that should be made at the project level. —Sowlos 21:46, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, historical pre-Christian religions were not simply polytheist, or were polytheist only in form, especially Indo-European ones (all the gods were conceived as "forms" of one only underlying principle, see: monism); anyone studying religion or philosophy on an academic level knows this. This is also a problem of the title of the article "polytheistic reconstructionism": it should be moved to "Reconstructionism (Paganism)" or another alternative not specifying "polytheist" or anther "theological" position.
- However, besides the problem regarding polytheism, "Roman polytheistic reconstructionism" is problematic also for specifying "reconstructionism". First of all, Italo-Roman Neopagans (I specify "Italo-" because the movement in Italy focuses also on local Italic cults) are not "reconstructionist" in the sense this term generally has in the English-speaking world, and this has already been pointed out by others; "reconstructionism" fails in defining them, and it's not even used in Italian. Secondly, "reconstructionism" defines the type of approach to the religion, and it's not the name of the religion itself.
- Regarding "Traditionalism", in Italian academic study (the only sources of academic quality currently existing on the subject are (1) CESNUR's description, in Italian, and (2) the website on Arturo Reghini & Roman Traditionalism, in English) is used as part of the proper name of the religion itself: "(Italo-)Roman Traditionalism", the "-ism" distinguishing from "tradition". It's the most accurate term to define "Roman Neopaganism", since practitioners of the Roman Tradition are sincere continuators ("tradition", from Latin "tradere", literally means "transmission") of the religion.
- As an alternative to "Italo-Roman Traditionalism", if it is considered not neutral enough, I suggest "Italo-Roman Neopaganism".--Schwert von Feuer (talk) 22:20, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Actually historical pre-Christian religion were not simply polytheist ...
- I think you misread when I said "you are right that not all (though most) historical pagan traditions were strictly polytheist."
... all the gods were conceived as "forms" of one only underlying principle ...
- This is patently false. All traditional Indo-European faiths were not monistic. Many were, especially in mid and late antiquity, but monism was not the rule.
This is also a problem of the title of the article "polytheistic reconstructionism": it should be moved to "Reconstructionism (Paganism)" or another alternative not specifying "polytheist" or anther "theological" position.
- Did you not read my post. I already suggested this as a possibility.
Italo-Roman Neopagans ... are not "reconstructionist" in the sense this term generally has in the English-speaking world ... Secondly, "reconstructionism" defines the type of approach to the religion, and it's not the name of the religion itself.
- Oxford Dictionaries Online's definition of reconstruction, "an impression, model, or re-enactment of a past event formed from the available evidence". They certainly appear to fit the definition. Of course this depends on who specifically you're referring to, which is why we use disambiguators like reconstructionism. There are those who attempt to rebuild lost traditions and there are those who base their practices on a mix including a specific historical tradition (thus making no historical claims). Reconstructionism may refer to the approach, but (1) that is part of who they are and (2) an established way to disambiguate them from others. —Sowlos 23:01, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
- Regarding the polytheism-monism, the Vedas and other Sanskrit literature (the oldest IE texts available) are clear in the description of this. However, I won't discuss further this topic, since it's secondary.
- In order to avoid all the problems related to the use of "polytheism" vs "other-theism" and "reconstructionism" vs "tradition(alism)", "syncretism", or other approaches to the religion which can be discussed within the article, I think "Italo-Roman Neopaganism" to be the best solution.--Schwert von Feuer (talk) 09:46, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
- If there's no further objection, tomorrow I will move the article to "Italo-Roman Neopaganism", with the lede specifying that it is mainly a reconstructionist or traditionalist movement. --Schwert von Feuer (talk) 19:59, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
- I have finally moved the page.--Schwert von Feuer (talk) 22:24, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
- Pardon my late response, but for some reason I wasn't receiving notifications, plus I've been really busy lately. I'm fine with the name change, however, "Pagan", "Paganism", and "Neo-Paganism" is considered derogatory by practitioners. Is there anything that could substitute that term? Afro-Eurasian (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:29, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not sure about neo-paganism, but there are plenty of people who call themselves pagans. Including some respected academics. Dougweller (talk) 12:24, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- Pardon my late response, but for some reason I wasn't receiving notifications, plus I've been really busy lately. I'm fine with the name change, however, "Pagan", "Paganism", and "Neo-Paganism" is considered derogatory by practitioners. Is there anything that could substitute that term? Afro-Eurasian (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:29, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- I have finally moved the page.--Schwert von Feuer (talk) 22:24, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
- If there's no further objection, tomorrow I will move the article to "Italo-Roman Neopaganism", with the lede specifying that it is mainly a reconstructionist or traditionalist movement. --Schwert von Feuer (talk) 19:59, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
- Thought I'd weigh in here. The naming is problematic, on several levels. Firstly, in that the Via Sacra Privita is specifically Italic; there are arguably some Italo-Romans who are perhaps the better studied, and the naming likely reflects this as it would be the more academically used term. Roman polytheists incorporate a wide variety of ethnic traditions (Gallo-Roman, Graeco-Roman, Aegypto-Roman, et cetera), though there is obviously an Italic undercurrent through all of these traditions, since the locus is Roman tradition. Romans, then and today, are syncretic in theology and praxis, and never have thought of themselves as "either / or".
The problem primarily lays in that these terms aren't concretely defined, even within the community itself. Neopagan is an ambiguous term, that's applied quite broadly to any pagans post-dating the rise of Christianity; in this sense, of course, they are neopagans. It also more is more specifically applied to those 'traditions' dating from the 19th century on. Most reconstructionists take umbrage with being included in this term for that reason. And, as most of you know, in every reconstructionist community, there are those traditionalist families who have ALWAYS been practising, however Christianised that practise may have become over the intervening centuries. While fewer in number than those in the Norse tradition, for example, the Roman tradition is no exception. I can personally attest to this. Families who have an unbroken tradition of practise would certainly dispute being "neo" anything. While most of those traditionalists are also reconstructionists, a tiny minority of them are not, and variously identify as both nominally Catholic and pagan.
So, how do we resolve this? I would propose dropping the moniker of "neopaganism" for the less-loaded "paganism". There's little chance of it being mistaken for ancient practise, as the latter is specifically labelled as such in the naming of other Roman religion articles. For the time being, it might be prudent to keep "Italo-Roman"; while not necessarily accurate, we can clarify this in the article itself. We also have the problem of citations from RS; this tradition is less studied than "Asatru" and "Hellenismos". There just simply isn't much in the way of sources as of yet, and so we run the risk of original research. Thoughts? Quinto Simmaco (talk) 03:50, 1 March 2015 (UTC)