Please propose Signpost stories you want to write (or have already begun writing). Submitted stories are published subject to the approval of the Editor-in-Chief, Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Editor(s) in chief. We value the involvement of Wikipedians, and appreciate your submissions. If you have ideas or questions that don't fit neatly into this framework, don't hesitate to address us on our user talk pages, by email, or as a last resort, on the general Signpost talk page.
The Signpost's content guidelines may be useful to aspiring writers; take note, especially, of the statement of purpose section. We encourage you to contact us early in the process of developing a story. Different writers have varying levels of interest in editorial input, and we pride ourselves on finding the right balance with each writer; but in most cases, a brief discussion early on can help all parties shape our expectations, and can help produce a strong finished piece. We aim to support Wikimedians wishing to share news with their peers, and look forward to working with you.
News Proposals
News stories present facts and analysis. We intend "news" in a broad sense (as distinct from opinion pieces); submissions may be for any of The Signpost's regular sections, as well as "special reports". These can cover a diverse range of topics, such as project history or statistical reports, and may have an investigative or evaluative focus. Simple narratives of interesting events, whether online or in person, that offer our readers an informative or entertaining glimpse into the Wikipedia or Wikimedia world, are also welcome.
Opinion Proposals
Position pieces, calls to arms, perspectives from other projects, debates and essays addressing important issues facing the English Wikipedia and the broader Wikimedia community. Have a project that you'd like to highlight? An issue that you'd like to bring to light? An essay you'd like to publish? Bring it to us and let us help you make it known. Book reviews are also welcome, for new books that explore topics of relevance to the Wikipedia community.
Give a suggestion instead
If you don't want to write a story yourself, you can just give The Signpost a suggestion or tip (but publication will be subject to staffing constraints, in addition to suitability).
Email a private tip
Guidelines
Please comment on submissions below: share ideas about how to improve pieces that catch your interest, make suggestions as to whether a given piece is ready for publication, or pitch ideas for future pieces. Note that news submissions should be kept relatively neutral. We ask that comments be kept constructive; if you are unclear on any of the process or have questions related thereto, feel free to use the talkpage. Generally speaking special reports are less factional than op-eds are, so are not subject to quite as much approval.
The criteria for publishing opinion pieces are quality of argument, originality, and relevance to the community, as judged by The Signpost. Similar to newspaper op-eds, opinion pieces should be accompanied by an extended byline (suggestion: one to three sentences), that briefly introduces the author and indicates why his or her opinion about the topic might interest the reader. The purpose of publishing opinion pieces is to provoke thought and discussion in a productive rather than antagonistic fashion, and so submissions should be well-researched and not factually misleading or unnecessarily inflammatory. A related set of submissions that address the same issue but from editors' different perspectives are especially encouraged.
Unlike the weekly news reporting focus of the standard Signpost articles, and the investigative and evaluative focus of its special reports, opinion pieces are primarily editorial in tone. As The Signpost does not have a house point-of-view or political agenda, it does not endorse the perspectives of opinion pieces, which express only the views of their authors.
Formatting
To easily set up a new page with Signpost formatting, create the page with {{subst:Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Templates/Story-preload}} as the only content in the edit window, and save the page. For more advanced formatting, see the style guide and style cheatsheet.
Alternatively, you can just focus on the writing, and Signpost editors can help with formatting later.
I have released the alpha version of a Wikidata editor called Daty, which of course I think would be of great benefit to Wiki* communities among others; the project development has been supported by Wikimedia CH, too, so I thought it would be appropriate to have its release inserted in the news.
I have already made a release post on your Village Pump and on IRC, where an user suggested me to write a short article on the Signpost for maximum visibility. Ogoorcs (talk) 04:16, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Ogoorcs: you were a bit late for the January issue, which we are busy finalizing. This will be reviewed for February's issue. ☆ Bri (talk) 04:31, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Bri: Thank you for the quick reply! If everything goes well, next month this could be about the beta release announcement. Ogoorcs (talk) 04:34, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, and in the meantime I'd suggest writing a standalone page vice referring to the village pump discussion. You can also decide how you want to "pitch" it to the readership. Informative only? Call to action? Background on what's missing with existing Wikidata interface(s)? ☆ Bri (talk) 04:43, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion: This op-ed describes a long-term pattern of disruption at Wikiproject Firearms, where editors coordinated to keep information about mass shootings out of firearms articles for over 10 years. –dlthewave☎ 16:29, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As an editor who was involved with at least some of these events I think this is a very one sided OpEd article. Claiming there has been a "long-term pattern of disruption" is a bit like asking the left if the right has a long term pattern of resisting laws the left thinks are good. The external articles it cites are basically three sources parroting the same story. That story is easily shown to be poorly researched and quick to jump to conclusions. The OpEd here can be boiled down to a disagreement regarding what is DUE and UNDUE that has yet to be cleanly resolved. Perhaps it is a good topic but I would suggest a joint authorship debate article rather than one that accuses editors the author has disagreed with of disruption. I will close by saying I do believe Dlthewave is a good faith editor but I think this is a poor summary of a long term debate related to the topic. Springee (talk) 20:20, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
...And this is why it’s an opinion piece and not a news article. If you want to write a rebuttal and submit that, you can of course submit it. I make no guarantees about it being put on the same page as the above submission. (COI: I have participated in discussions on this topic.) — pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 03:43, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is a perfect example of Wikipedia:Advocacy. I only want to help Wikipedia! What I am writing is true! The public needs to know this! Articles on X should be written or edited by believers in X and not Y.--RAF910 (talk) 20:34, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: RAF910 is one of the editors who was involved in these events –dlthewave☎ 13:23, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and Dlthewave has portrayed himself as the epic hero fighting the forces of darkness.--RAF910 (talk) 19:09, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Coming from a country which has the strictest gun laws in the world and where most people of my generation have never seen a real gun close up unless they have been in the army (even the police don't wear them), and where gun crimes are very low compared to the US; and with the US having what I understand to be the most liberal laws on gun ownership, I am not qualified to comment on this draft other than my gut feeling tells me that it is more advocacy than opinion and probably will not attract many readers who will stick through the article to the end. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:34, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The AOAV article appears to be something published by an anti-gun group. I'm not sure they are likely going to be an unbiased source of information.
I previously addressed the flaws with the Verge article on a user talk page ([[1]]search for the paragraph starting, "So I have a bit of time and thought I would share my take"). The OpEd author read and appears to have agreed with my criticisms of the Verge and Verge parrot articles.
The shortish version is this was simple a confused mess regarding where information should actually go, not a conspiracy. In 2005 the "AR-15" article was created and it talked about the Armalite AR-15 and it's derivative rifles. "AR-15" is actually a trademark of Colt and at some point the article became "Colt AR-15" and editors wanted to limit the scope of content to only that which specifically involved "Colt" rifles, not AR-15 clones. At the time AR-15 -> Colt AR-15 the Armalite specific material was spun off into its own page. Generic discussions of AR-15 clones appear to have been moved to the already existing Modern Sporting Rifle page. At the time the MSR page would include AR-15's as well as semi-auto rifles that aren't based on the original AR pattern, for example some versions of the Mini-14. When the AR-15 page was split into the brand specific Colt and Armalite pages it appears no one created a generic location for "AR-15" searches. Thus editors who searched for "AR-15" found the Colt AR-15 page (as mentioned in the OpEd).
Not unreasonably, involved editors said the page should only cover material involving "Colt" manufactured rifles. Consider that "Coke" is often used as a generic name for cola drinks (get something out of the "Coke machine"). It certainly wouldn't be OK to include a generic discussion of say removing "cola" from schools on the "Coke-a-cola" page. A similar situation had developed with editors trying to add "AR-15" material that didn't specifically involve a Colt product to the "Colt AR-15" page. My first involvement with the area was in these discussions. Editors suggested this could be addressed by creating a generic "AR-15 clone" page. Being as this is Wikipedia, pages only get created if someone actually takes the effort to make it happen. Editors who wanted to avoid the constant fights trying to keep generic AR-15 crimes out of the Colt article could have created a generic page sooner. Editors who wanted a place to put such information into an AR-15 page also could have created the page. In, I think 2017, someone did take initiative and, incorrectly, redefined the scope of the MSR page. Rather than saying AR-15's are a type of MSR, they changed the definition to MSR=AR-15 (Colt and clones). This still wasn't a complete fix. Editors such as the OpEd's author were rightly confused when a search for a generic AR-15 article went to the Colt AR-15 page which lacked any of the generic topics they felt should be included. It didn't help that some felt the "generic" page had an obscure, euphemistic name. So after debate in March 2018 the MSR page was changed to the generic AR-15 page and gained a section talking about crimes and mass shooting. It should be noted that as a result there is no page for the broader topic that used to be called MSR.
What should be the take away from this?
1. If you are constantly seeing editors pushing back and saying that content doesn't go here perhaps the correct solution is figure out where it does go. While the current solution didn't come about easily it was actually both "sides" working together that made it happen.
2. Sometimes it isn't a conspiracy... unless you consider a bunch of editors waiting for someone else to fix the problem a form of conspiring. This is where the Verge article got it so wrong. They assumed the reason for any content rejection must be due to coordinated censorship. They didn't consider that sometimes insertions are just low quality or the information really doesn't fit in that article.
Final note, the OpEd suggests that a change in Project Firearms guidelines opened the door to fix these issues after a "landmark" RfC but also suggest that editors are still defying the outcome of that RfC by mentioning the Smith & Wesson M&P15 article. In fact many were critical of the landmark RfC due to the muddled and confusing nature of the questions being asked. In the end the changes to the guideline were slight and really just removed a single sentence (rightfully in my opinion) that had been part of the article for less than a year. The outcome was actually in line with some of the previous discussions of the subject. The OpEd mention of the M&P-15 page was given as sort of a "more work ahead". In 2017 a RfC resulted in a consensus to exclude some crime coverage into the article. A little over a year later, an editor attempted to insert nearly identical information. Editors in favor of insertion argued that the landmark RfC negated the previous RfC citing that some editors (but not the closing editor) had cited the project guidelines. This was covered by the OpEd which also lamented that the material is, to this day, not in the article. It failed to mention why. A new RfC again found a consensus against inclusion. I hope this sheds at least some light on the issues with this OpEd article. Springee (talk) 03:12, 6 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I’m not making any judgments about the quality or neutrality of the above articles, just letting people know they exist. — pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 13:20, 6 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The latest Signpost has come and gone without any real comment or evaluation from the editors. If there are any improvements or changes that I need to make, please let me know. –dlthewave☎ 23:15, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think a single page covering both views would be the best way forward. @Springee: Would you be interested in writing a second/response piece, along the lines of your comments above from 03:12, 6 February 2019 (UTC)? @Dlthewave: your current submission seems too long for such a format: see User:Evad37/Signpost_draft/Community_view, where I tried drafting it up using Springee's response as "filler" for the second piece. Can you try shortening it? Or maybe you want to keep a full copy in your userspace, and present a summary for the Signpost? (Note that this would all still be subject to EIC approval) - Evad37[talk] 02:02, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Take a minute to think about what you’re doing. You’re seriously saying The Signpost has TOO MUCH content?! — pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 13:10, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My point, which perhaps I didn't communicate clearly, is that the balance feels a bit off in the combined draft I linked. And that perhaps something a bit shorter might be keep readers more engaged, especially since we would be asking them to read two opinion pieces. Maybe my feeling re the balance isn't shared by anyone else, or maybe it would be better to expand the second piece instead, but these are my thoughts at the moment. We can see what other Signpost editors and the EIC think. Specifically in regards to "TOO MUCH content": it is a possibility, in terms of length of individual articles, e.g. Traffic report typically trims lists to the top 10 instead of 25, or how Featured content report, back when it showed blurbs for FAs/FLs, would use a shortened version of each article's lead instead of the the full lead. Not saying this is the same situation, just that the Signpost doesn't have to use the full version of everything it publishes. - Evad37[talk] 14:09, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest, I don't think a proper refutation of this OpEd would be in any way brief. This is one of those examples where it's easy to make accusations and show superficial evidence that suggests truth. To refute that "truth" would requires actually looking at the claims in detail. Alternatively it would require some sort of high level overview of the situation where instead of refuting the claims you paint an alternate view of the big picture. To be honest, I don't really want to put my limited editing time (actually composing vs just replying to talk page comments) into this discussion. Most of what I wrote above was a repeat of something I said to an editor earlier regarding the lazy Verge article. I really didn't get into the laundry list of issues with the OpEd at large. Perhaps an alternative to having just one editor reply would be to find the editors quoted either in the OpEd or in the "whitewashing" evidence page. Since those editors are being drawn into this discussion, perhaps without their knowledge, it would be best to give them a voice. Springee (talk) 13:59, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I share Springee's concern that a combined page would not have enough room to cover both perspectives adequately. I don't really see the need for my opinion piece to present all viewpoints, but interested editors are certainly welcome to submit their opinions for publication if they are interested. I would support having both pieces in the same issue as long as it does not significantly delay publication; Springee mentioned his intent to draft a rebuttal back in February, so he's had plenty of time to work on it if he's interested.
Springee's response concerns more recent (circa 2017-18) events that do involve a certain amount of confusion and differing views over terminology and where certain content should be included. My main focus, however, was meant to be the well-documented history of editors enforcing a project advice page as "policy", even after they were warned not to. I only gave a few examples here but I do maintain a separate, extensive list of occurrences. I just don't see a defensible opposing viewpoint to that, since it so clearly went against our policies and guidelines. –dlthewave☎ 14:58, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
After reading Evad37's explanation, I would be comfortable with a combined page that includes a summary of each opinion with links to the full-length pieces. This seems like a good way to present both viewpoints without having to trim anything. –dlthewave☎ 16:04, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to use my blurb, the paragraph starting "From 2007 through 2018...", as the basis for my summary. Perhaps it can be expanded a bit. Would Signpost folks be willing to proofread and edit (or provide editing suggestions) for the full-length piece as well? –dlthewave☎ 22:34, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Question: Since Springee doesn't seem interested in writing an opposing view (Springee please correct me if I'm wrong here), who is going to either write it or solicit opinions from others? I'm not sure how the three opinions in the Stickland affair op-ed were brought together, but it seems like a similar situation. –dlthewave☎ 16:19, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
dlthewave, as a new copyeditor, my opinion probably doesn't mean as much as say.. Evad's or pythoncoder's but I will give my thoughts here nonetheless. Unlike Evad, I think that this article does not present a balance problem whatsoever. Op-Ed's by their very nature are supposed to be divisive. We don't need to balance it out for the sake of making everyone happy. As long as a piece is not downright offensive (*looks behind shoulder*), then we should be good to publish it after it's been fact-checked. That being said, I do feel the piece is a bit long winded. Here are my thoughts:
Your thesis is unclear. When you write this sort of thing, you have to be clear what you are proposing. For me, this op-ed is much more powerful when it is discussing, "We need to improve our coverage of firearms on Wikipedia, and this thing that this wikiproject does is inhibiting discussion."
I'd cut the entire "Lessons learned" section of the thing. It is a classic case of lazy writing. If the points here were not sprinkled in throughout the essay, then you need to do another rewrite.
The most powerful section in your piece is the one labeled "My experience." No editor can ever take that away from you.
Remove the first instance of a quotebox. It's redundant and does not serve the points you subsequently make where the other one will not do.
Get rid of I will cover one article in detail here; I also maintain an exhaustive list of these discussions. The page you linked to is in Deletion review. It also makes you seem a bit WP:POLEMIC to the casual reader.
Talk in general terms in "Enforcing the advice page as policy" (which you should rename to: "Enforcing advice as policy"). Remove all references to Ruger Mini-14 as it just hurts your arguement.
There's actually a lot more, but I don't want to overload you. Let's start there.
Thank you for this submission. Kindest Regards, –MJL‐Talk‐☖ 03:52, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'll work on trimming the length and clarifying the thesis. My intent was to use the pattern I observed at the Firearms project as an example of a problem that can happen to any walled-garden topic, and suggest ways that the community can better respond to situations like it.
The "exhaustive list" link was meant to provide evidence that it was happening at multiple articles and project pages without having to list every example within my article. Is there a better way to demonstrate this to the reader, or should I just mention that it was "widespread" and let them to take my word for it?
What is it about the Mini-14 that hurts my argument? I could replace it with another example fairly easily.
I appreciate the feedback and please feel free to suggest any other improvements that you have in mind. –dlthewave☎ 15:58, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you as well for the submission!
That's certainly a noble intent! I'd still remove the lesson's learned thing for the same reason, but that's just me. That criticism isn't a deal breaker by any means.
Let people take your word for it. Detractors are going to accuse you of being wrong about it anyways, so there's no point going down that rabbit hole.
If the Mini-14 is a rare example of a weapon which meets the "legislative change" requirement, then there is no reason we need to hear about it. It gives undue weight to the one exception you are saying there was to the rule. Let your opponents make the arguement that the Mini-14 was able to clear the threshold without controversy.
Also, by first quotebox, I meant the February 2018 version of the policy and not the thing you got rid of.
The last most major thing I would do broadly is make this two parts: how things worked before the RfC (including your own experiences) and the effects of the RfC. That means: One intro, two main body paragraphs, and a conclusion. That would make your arguement airtight.
I can't thank you enough, so thank you! –MJL‐Talk‐☖ 16:57, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I started a new draft here. The section headers are just temporary, to help with the layout. I'd like to include some variation of the "lessons learned" section in the conclusion as a sort of path forward. Let me know what you think. –dlthewave☎ 21:09, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Dlthewave, oh. my. gosh! I love this!! Once you get that conclusion, this is just a few tweaks away from being publishing-ready!!! :D (btw, ping me for a quicker response) –MJL‐Talk‐☖ 04:41, 14 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There are writing issues. Sorry if I jumped in at the wrong time. Thank you, CluelessEditoroverhere (talk) 20:55, 14 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@MJL: I added a conclusion which is basically a copy of Lessons Learned. Let me know what you think. Is there anything I can do to improve the style or keep it focused on the thesis? CluelessEditoroverhere, specific feedback would be much appreciated. –dlthewave☎ 20:15, 16 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I was working in my sandbox and forgot to update the submission page. Can you take another look? –dlthewave☎ 20:43, 16 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Dlthewave, thank you for the ping. I thinkin my limited experience this is ready to publish. Smallbones, what say you? –MJL‐Talk‐☖ 05:17, 17 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The quote box ("But on Wikipedia, as in the real world,...") appears twice. --K.e.coffman (talk) 20:54, 16 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The Verge article is flawed per my comments above. I would suggest this OpEd should be the opinion of the submitter, not the opinions of an non-wiki reporter who clearly didn't bother to look into the facts before reporting. Also, the "changes to project guidelines" quote box is misleading. The only sentence that actually didn't conform with policy was the declaratory part about "see also". That was part of the text for less than a year. [[2]] The rest of the policy was in compliance with policy. The big change was, to borrow a firearms term, a flash in the pan. So when one compares the early 2017 to late 2018 version we see just one relatively redundant sentence and "must" change to "should". However, "must" is correct since WEIGHT applies [[3]]. It's also misleading to suggest that various examples of exclusion were ultimately decided based on consensus skewed by an assumption that the project page dictated the outcome. Even with the original version of this OpEd that wasn't illustrated in any example. First, as we saw at the Ford F-650 criminal use RfC often inclusion/exclusion fits into a gray area of WP:WEIGHT and editor consensus dictates outcome. Also we have the example of the M&P15 criminal use RfC. Prior to the "turning point" RfC consensus said exclude. The "turning point" RfC was used as an excuse to ignore the prior RfC consensus and try to push the material back into the article. A new RfC reaffirmed the old one. In short, just because someone doesn't like the outcome of a prior consensus doesn't mean there was a conspiracy to achieve it. Dlthewave admirably cutting the length and made the article less accusatory but I think the premise and conclusions are just as flawed as before. Springee (talk) 02:53, 17 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Dlthewave, Springee, and Evad37: It taken me a long tome to get through the submission and all the comments, but I've come to a couple of conclusions
Evad37's comments are right on target - this would be a wonderful "Pro & Con" type article if both Dlthewave and Springee step forward to complete the piece. Dl's submission could also work alone, but "Pro & Con" would be better.
Dl's submission
is too long and will wear out the reader all by itself. My wordcount gives over 2900 words (but includes 5 boxes). Without the boxes, could you get it down to 1000? If Springee wants to submit his part (which I greatly encourage) he should keep it the same length.
it starts out a bit slow. You've got to convince the readers in the 1st paragraph or so that this is worth reading, about something that will effect their life - or at least their editing. I don't quite know what you are trying to do in the "blurb", but the final editor (that's me) will probably just delete that and write the blurb himself, per the usual practice.
I like the lessons learned - it's really just a conclusion. Cutting its length in half will make it twice as good.
We can link to your full version (which we won't edit), but 90% of the readers will just read the Signpost version
Springee - you've got your work cut out for you. Dlthewave's submission is quite persuasive. I think I'll give you the the advantage of having the last word on the page. What Evad37 demoed from you would need some work. Some of it comes across as "there were technical reasons why we couldn't include the material." That won't convince most readers. Please just give the best arguments for leaving the material out.
Please do let me know if you want to make a submission.
@Smallbones: It's a bit confusing because Evad37 drafted a version that includes both perspectives, while I've still been working on the original submission in my userspace. In any case the current version is trimmed down to about 1300 words and can be found here. I think this addresses most of your concerns, and I can make the conclusion less wordy as well. Do you think it looks better with or without section headings? –dlthewave☎ 21:24, 17 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I'd love to see both perspectives on one page. If Springee doesn't want to submit though, there's nothing we can do, so the length issue is not as crucial. Still, I think the conclusion should be shorter, and I'd like to see a lede that will draw readers in. As it stands now, I think you'll lose 5-10% of readers who might think "why do I want to read about the history of an edit war." It's not, of course, but some readers might think it after reading the 1st 2 paragraphs. Make it compelling! I hadn't seen the turtle metaphor before and it confused me at first - is there a simpler way to say it? The section headers are ok, but we reserve the right to change them. Thanks for the extra work. Smallbones(smalltalk) 22:06, 17 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So I guess I'm will have to put together something. What is the time and is there a period where Dlthewave's text will be complete? The first question since I will be OOO the first week of April and I don't have loads of time before then. The second question because I need to know what I'm actually replying to if I'm to offer a counter post. Springee (talk) 01:38, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Springee: I'm sorry that our schedules don't seem to mesh. I'm committed to publishing this on March 31. If you can get a good draft in by March 26, we'll almost surely publish it along with Dlthewave's text. Dlthewave's text won't be increased in size, the arguments will stay the same, so you can be assured that your arguments will be relevant.
The reason I don't want to wait until the end of April to publish it is that writers get fatigued by waiting, editors get stale dealing with the same topic, and we need a good article like this for the upcoming issue.
If you can't get a good draft by then, I'll suggest preparing a rebuttal for the comment below the article, or submitting a rebuttal for the April issue. Sorry this didn't work out. Sincerely,
Request: I would like the quotes from The Verge and the other two articles which just reference The Verge to be removed from the discussion. The Verge article was misleading and frankly a bit dishonest on the part of the author (I say this as an editor contacted prior to publication). I've repeatedly pointed how how the Verge completely screws up the events it claims to report and I feel that inclusion would just require me to post a comment after the actual OpEd+official rebuttal to address those articles. I would rather we keep this about what editors here are writing. I think this is also a reasonable request as the OpEd no longer references the external articles. If Dlthewave would like to include them in the comment section that would be fine, I would reply to them in the comments. It will keep the discussion of Dlthewave's content cleaner. Springee (talk) 03:15, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Smallbones:, I've created a draft but I want to get some feedback before calling it complete. The draft is here [[4]]. I also would like to repeat my request that the quote boxes to the external articles not be included with the published OpEd. Above I explained why The Verge got it wrong but it simply takes too much text to explain that. Note that the other two articles simply report what the Verge claims. It creates a false sense of authority to quote all three as if they were three independent sources. More so since Dlthewave acknowledged the issues here, "By the way, thank you Springee for explaining a few of these differences to me. It looks to me like the Verge misunderstood the facts, which must have been incredibly frustrating for the involved editors."[[5]] Springee (talk) 14:10, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My views on The Verge have changed over the past year. After taking a closer look at the Colt AR-15/MSR/SIG MCX situation, I now feel that their article reflects my opinion. In any case, the quote I used applies to the overall trend and is not specific to the AR-15. Springee you are welcome to present your perspective but I'm not going to remove the quote for the sake of lessening your workload. –dlthewave☎ 15:47, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a matter of work load since I have already written the text you agreed with. It'a a matter of respecting the 1000 word limit. You are effectively making an argument without adding text. My reply to the text would be to quote my original discussion and your reply. Springee (talk) 19:03, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
All of this is exactly why I stepped away from editing firearms articles. dlthewave and a few others constantly badgered editors with the same argument over and over in multiple locations, forcing the same ground to be hashed and rehashed ad nauseum. The fact that this is an encyclopedia, where accuracy (such as the AR15 and the MCX being entirely different firearms) should be valued, not a social justice platform where agendas should be furthered (well some people may search for XYZ), seems lost in this whole debate. dlthewave takes something like the list of official users, completely ignores the discussion about why they are included, and just says "it doesn't make sense". Just because an editor is incapable or unwilling to understand technical differences or accept a reason doesn't make him correct. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:23, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Smallbones: I rewrote the intro, but I'd like to keep the conclusion as is if you're comfortable with that. Let me know what you think. –dlthewave☎ 18:24, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Dlthewave's part looks almost ready to go, either alone or as part one of a "pro & con". Let's just say accept for now I'll likely remove the Newsweek and Haaretz (sp?) boxes and move the Verge box to near the top. It seems that both authors want to included very similar boxes about the changes in the essay - is there any way we can agree on one box with this material and include it in between the 2 parts.
Springee Your work at User:Springee/sandbox is ok so far, but does need work. Will it be ready by Thursday? The section on weight and reciprocity is unclear at the beginning. Please rewrite "If a RS about A mentions B does that mean the Wikipedia article about B has weight to include A? Does WEIGHT for B with respect to A mean A has weight with respect to B? WEIGHT instructs that we should treat aspects of a topic in proportion, "to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject." Is the subject A or B or both?" It's much too technical, and wording like RS, A, B WEIGHT, "with respect to", will lose many readers. Your suggestion on the essay box would be appreciated. I'll give you the same advice I gave Dlthewave - start the article trying to draw in the reader and let him/her know why he should read it. An article that looks like it is about an edit war will drive many readers away. Some of it is about the technicalities of our rules, which could be as boring as an ArbCom evidence page if you don't ask yourself "what is the big picture?". Smallbones(smalltalk) 21:11, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion: This piece is a humorous work, written in epistolary form. It tells the tale of poor Arthur37, working in the mines of the New Pages Feed. signed, Rosguilltalk 05:02, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Rosguill, I honestly would prefer this than the current draft (no offense there). I just think this is so much more wholesome. ―Matthew J. Long-Talk-☖ 23:48, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Taking a look. I am very optimistic. Best Regards, Barbara ✐✉ 22:36, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It looks great except that about every 2 inches you say that it can't be modified. Everything (with some exceptions) has to be free/no copyrights. I think it is very funny, but I think everything is funny. So first of all the content has to be cut and pasted into a Signpost draft page. So that is the first problem. Don't worry. Most articles are not heavily edited but when they are, things get pretty exciting. So let me wait until the newsroom/drafts opens up for us to work on next month's issue (probably tomorrow). I will need to move your content into a humour article draft space. I'll be in touch. Best Regards, Barbara ✐✉ 22:44, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The archive marks were added for comedic effect, to give the impression of the article being made up of old letters. If that's inappropriate then it can be removed. signed, Rosguilltalk 23:56, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You can use {{divbox}} instead, it's got a few brown/yellow options - Evad37[talk] 23:57, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Done, although I didn't find a good use for the first suggested image. signed, Rosguilltalk 20:48, 14 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Looked great! As I go over it again, I might put something below this. Thanks, CluelessEditoroverhere (talk) 20:45, 14 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Rosguill: I've formatted it with Signpost templates, and I think it's looking pretty good too. I wonder if it might be better with a short introduction? e.g. perhaps something along the lines of The following letters and newspaper clippings, discovered [insert joke here], tell the tale of poor Arthur37 working in the mines of the New Pages Feed. - Evad37[talk] 23:52, 17 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Rosguill: I'm rapidly getting into the habit of agreeing with Evad37. Some minor things: the "Mussolini era" is out of place chronologically, perhaps substitute "Garibaldi era" instead. "Italianophobia" should probably be "Italophobia" but both are poorly covered in dictionaries. I'd be interested in seeing one more epistle, perhaps short and subtly foreshadowing the ultimate tragedy. We need to figure out how to format the images better. Perhaps you could briefly thank Brunhilde for sending them to you, so the reader has an idea where they came from. Due to last month's reaction to the humour column, I appreciate more folks checking this out for any possible offense that somebody might take.
I'll also try my hand at the intro Evad37 suggested, but the ultimate wording should be yours.
"Signpost exclusive: The National Archives is expected to announce an astounding discovery of a cache of 19th century e-mails stored on an early model CD which was previously thought to be unreadable. A sample of the e-mails from a pioneer Wikipedia editor, Arthur37, who is believed to be Wikipedia founder Wimbo Jales follows." Smallbones(smalltalk) 19:02, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Smallbones, All good suggestions, I'll work on integrating them. signed, Rosguilltalk 19:12, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion:I'm reading Hans Rosling's 2018 book, Factfulness: Ten Reasons We're Wrong About the World--and Why Things Are Better Than You Think. It says a few things that Signpost readers might find of interest: 1) Hans Rosling loved Wikipedia, and uses it a few times in his footnotes. 2) Rosling looked into using Wikipedia as a database of terrorism deaths and found it significantly underreported terrorism in non-Western countries. This isn't really "News", so I'm wondering what you think of having a new regular section about how Wikipedia is used and perceived, called "Wikipedia in the World" or "What Wikipedia Readers Say" or something like that. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 17:18, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Clayoquot: Thanks for submitting to The Signpost! I can’t seem to find your submission in your contributions, so could you please provide a link to your submission? (Unless you haven’t started it, then obviously you can’t link to it.)
As for where it would go, it would probably be under a header of “Book Review” because The Signpost has run book reviews in the past. We have an In the Media section, but it’s typically devoted to news on the topic of coverage of Wikipedia in off-wiki sources, rather than reviews or other opinion pieces. There was no In the Media section this month because there wasn’t enough material that people found for it. If you want to write for that, you’re welcome to; it currently does not have a permanent writer. If you don’t want to, though, that’s okay too.
I’ll take a look at your review once you finish it. And if you want to get more involved with The Signpost, head over to the newsroom. — pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 23:28, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Yup, I haven't drafted anything yet. I'll draft something and bring it back here for discussion. Cheers, Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 05:45, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion: This piece is about what we know we don't know about editor demographics, what we haven't measured in the past, and hopefully, what we should be measuring in the future. GMGtalk 23:57, 5 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Looks okay to publish to me. Would publish under "Op-ed". Is this finished? — pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 15:21, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it's fairly well finished aside from perhaps a few additional tweaks. I've been working on it on and off for about a month now. GMGtalk 15:49, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion: Pythoncoder, I may have sort started running with your bulleted list and begun drafting the "From the Editors" section. I would like your thoughts on what I have so far. Also, I don't think we should mention Barbara (WVS)'s potential topic ban. That just seems like a whole new can of worms. Kindest Regards, –MJL‐Talk‐☖ 02:17, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. That sounds fine. I was just brainstorming. Unless I contribute other stuff, no need to credit me on this piece. — pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 03:15, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Kinda felt weird because I don't think I am as qualified to write this tbh. –MJL‐Talk‐☖ 03:58, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well then who that is qualified and willing should write it? I don't see anyone else stepping up... — pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 22:48, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
pythoncoder should be fine to write this! MPS1992 (talk) 05:30, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Please, no. 2 MfDs, an ANI thread and an ArbCom request are sufficient. The two at the helm of affairs have (likely) left and I don't foresee any good that the publication will cause other than more polarization and more drama. I look forward to a fresh journey of the magazine, without any connect to the isolated incidences of the past few months. ∯WBGconverse 08:27, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
WBG, It would be highly irregular for a newspaper to not directly respond to this type of controversy. I just based what I wrote after the things pythoncoder came up with. However, I will note that we never formally retracted the piece, and this is a good time to elaborate on our relationship with the wikimedia community directly. –MJL‐Talk‐☖ 22:32, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Some people had brought the idea up so I put down some bullet points. I understand the argument that it would be more irresponsible to not cover this, but I also shudder at the thought about the many kilobytes of comments that this would cause. I have no doubt that some (not all) of the commenters would just be looking for any fault they could find and publishing such an article could end up bringing up the drama again. This is the part where I'd defer to the editor-in-chief, but we don't have one. Facepalm — pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 22:46, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
pythoncoder, logic would dictate that either the Editors (you) and the Editor Emeritus would be the ones to make these sorts of decisions for the moment. However, I am not opposed to making this a group decision (as in the editorial board- this would actually be my preference). Side note: I have yet to actually finish the most important part of the article. –MJL‐Talk‐☖ 00:03, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This sort of decision isn't really within the remit of "Editor Emeritus" – if only one or two people are to make this decision, I think it should be as (acting or actual) Editor(s)-in-chief. A group decision is a possibility, if we can get consensus on what we actually want to say. As for drama goes, some amount is likely to occur no matter what we do – any coverage is likely going to reignite debate and controversy, and a lack of coverage is going to piss off the people expecting some sort of acknowledgment or apology. - Evad37[talk] 01:24, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Evad, oh... huh. Question: in the immediate period before you became Editor-in-Chief, had there been any examples of an alternative decision making approach being used? I don't see why we give so much responsibility to a position that we chronically cannot fill. –MJL‐Talk‐☖ 03:08, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Whether we held some vague notion of responsibility or not - or had responsibility disingenuously thrust upon us by liars and detractors, some of us have finally taken the decision to retire from The Signpost never to return - or are about to. None of these retirements are an admission of wrong-doing or under a cloud, but the bad blood, personal attacks , and persistent harassment are untenable. Nobody helping to run the magazine should be expected to go through this. I appreciate everything that a tiny handful of users have done for The Signpost over the last 11 months and if some people believe it's worth saving, I can't argue against it. That said, IMO this recent scandal, having spilled over multiple talk pages, ANI, MfD, and Arbcom, has already had sufficient exposure, and yet another article about it all in The Signpost will not change or improve anything. It would simply rub more salt into people's wounds, polarise more people, destroy what's left of a collaborative environment, and allow even more polemic, vituperation, attacks, and trolling in the comments section from people who have already had far more than enough to say. That would hardly be a fresh start. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:25, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion: This piece is a gallery submission that tries to briefly highlight the question "Do Wikipedia editors need to be stoics?"... DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 21:25, 13 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is very interesting, very creative work. Thanks for submitting this. I'm not sure if it fits in with our usual gallery format, but I'd like to explore what people think of making the gallery format into a "photo essay" (or "image essay" in this case) instead of a simple collection of related pix. I'm not sure I'd call this humorous, but it certainly is ironic at points. There is one mention of somebody beheaded by ISIS - can I call this "gallery humor? It would not work this month with the New Zealand massacre and our serious humor problem. Perhaps with other comments you might figure out changes that can be made and how far we can go down this path. But for the upcoming issue, no. Smallbones(smalltalk) 02:03, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comment and taking the time to go through this carefully. I think the "unreviewed" tag can be changed to "rejected" for now. I have no issues with that. I also can't find the time to improve this submission and fix the issues raised, so all the more reason to reject it. Regards. DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 09:05, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've set the status to "Declined". Thanks for trying DiplomatTesterMan, and sorry it didn't work out. Please have another go at writing a submission when you have some time, creative proposals are always welcome. - Evad37[talk] 02:55, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]