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:{{ping|Mar4d}}, now you are gone to 1947-48 and denying 2010 or even denying shimla accord and various other developments over the time. And I'm again saying that I'm not writing that "Jammu and Kashmir is undisputed state of India", I'm writing that J & K is "state of India". And there is no source that Kashmir is disputed region. But to make consensus and to resolve this issue I have no objection if one write it as "State administered by India", this is my view, others may object this or will not object. But I think this is best possible consensus we can expect even after hours of discussions. --[[User:Human3015|'''<span style="color:red;">Human</span><span style="color:green;">3015</span>''']] 13:47, 6 April 2015 (UTC) |
:{{ping|Mar4d}}, now you are gone to 1947-48 and denying 2010 or even denying shimla accord and various other developments over the time. And I'm again saying that I'm not writing that "Jammu and Kashmir is undisputed state of India", I'm writing that J & K is "state of India". And there is no source that Kashmir is disputed region. But to make consensus and to resolve this issue I have no objection if one write it as "State administered by India", this is my view, others may object this or will not object. But I think this is best possible consensus we can expect even after hours of discussions. --[[User:Human3015|'''<span style="color:red;">Human</span><span style="color:green;">3015</span>''']] 13:47, 6 April 2015 (UTC) |
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::: (edit conflict) Dear both, whether Kashmir is "disputed" or not is vexed question. But putting on this page is certainly an instance of [[WP:COATRACK]] unless somebody can demonstrate that it is relevant to the human rights abuses. I am going to reword the first sentence to make it a bit more neutral. [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 13:50, 6 April 2015 (UTC) |
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Disputed status
I've had a revert regarding the legal status of Jammu and Kashmir [1]. Please refer to Kashmir conflict. The territory is regarded as disputed. Mar4d (talk) 08:47, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Mar4d:, please read section "Problems before Plebiscite" in Kashmir conflict, Jammu and Kashmir is not internationally disputed region, Kashmir is already out of UN dispute list and EU, US and other major power thinks that Kashmir is not international issue. So there maybe "conflict" about Kashmir between India and Pakistan but surely its not disputed region. --Human3015 11:56, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Human3015: I am referring to the current international status of Kashmir. As per all current United Nations documents and resolution, Kashmir is an internationally disputed territory and it is treated as such. All neutral maps and documents, including those of the United Nations, show the territory as clearly disputed. There has been no UN resolution I repeat, as of present that has declared the Kashmir conflict as resolved. Until there is a unanimous international resolution that explicitly declares Kashmir as not disputed, it cannot be described as otherwise. As Wikipedia relies on facts (see WP:V), we have to base the article on that. We can't use vague sources from 2010, surveys and polls, some Security Council procession list on disputes, or random statements by certain politicians to say that Kashmir is not a disputed territory anymore. That is factually incorrect and not the reality. It is also a definition of WP:SYNTHESIS, which by the way what this highly-skewed section is as well at the moment (that article long requires a revamp anyway). Mar4d (talk) 12:16, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Mar4d:, please read section "Problems before Plebiscite" in Kashmir conflict, Jammu and Kashmir is not internationally disputed region, Kashmir is already out of UN dispute list and EU, US and other major power thinks that Kashmir is not international issue. So there maybe "conflict" about Kashmir between India and Pakistan but surely its not disputed region. --Human3015 11:56, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
@Human3015: Please stop edit warring and making edits without consensus. You're assertion on Kashmir's status is WP:UNSOURCED and WP:SYNTHESIS. There is no reliable source backing your edit. Mar4d (talk) 12:42, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
- I have also found several WP:V issues with regard to some of the sources you've used, especially the November 2010 sources. Unless you are not willing to discuss, I see no other way but to start an WP:RFC here. Mar4d (talk) 12:44, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Mar4d:, and what you think, Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan are disputed or not disputed?--Human3015 12:50, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Mar4d:, at least tell us, on what basis you are saying that Jammu and Kashmir is disputed region? --Human3015 12:55, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Human3015: As I have said, the WP:BURDEN lies on you and I would challenge you to provide a source explicitly saying Kashmir is an undisputed region (verbatim). I have already explained above that Kashmir is disputed, as per the dozens of UN resolutions, all UN maps, and the mediation of the United Nations Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan. Statements by some US, UK, EU politicians (there are many statements by US, UK politicians saying the opposite too) are irrelevant and have nothing to do with what we're discussing here. Mar4d (talk) 12:57, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Mar4d:, at least tell us, on what basis you are saying that Jammu and Kashmir is disputed region? --Human3015 12:55, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Mar4d:, I'm not writing there that Kashmir is "undisputed" region, i'm just writing kashmir is state of India which is truth, you will also not deny that Kashmir is state of India. But you are writting that kashmir is "disputed" region, so its your responsibility to provide exclusive source by UN saying "Jammu and Kashmir is disputed region". --Human3015 13:04, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Mar4d:, see friend, I don't have pro-India views, I'm not challenging whatever written here against Indian army, i do accept that there are human rights violations in Kashmir. But we should have Neutral point of view. Kashmir is not yet Internationally accepted dispute, Currently Pakistan Government is trying and appealing in UN to accept Kashmir as International issue, its not been accepted yet, when they will accept it then we should add that Kashmir is dispute. Thank you. --Human3015 13:14, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Human3015: So you have changed your stance? As per my understanding, you were saying before that Kashmir is not a disputed territory, which is incorrect. When a territory is regarded as disputed at the UN, what that means is that it is internationally disputed. Jammu and Kashmir is neutrally referred to as "Indian-administered Kashmir". Therefore, the correct WP:NPOV way to describe it here would be as a "state administered by India". Mar4d (talk) 13:20, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Mar4d:, see friend, I don't have pro-India views, I'm not challenging whatever written here against Indian army, i do accept that there are human rights violations in Kashmir. But we should have Neutral point of view. Kashmir is not yet Internationally accepted dispute, Currently Pakistan Government is trying and appealing in UN to accept Kashmir as International issue, its not been accepted yet, when they will accept it then we should add that Kashmir is dispute. Thank you. --Human3015 13:14, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Mar4d:, ok, tell me what's your stance about Azad Kashmir, is it "state administered by Pakistan", "disputed state administered by Pakistan" , "integral part of Pakistan", "Pakistan held Kashmir", "Pakistan Occupied Kashmir" or "state of Pakistan"??? --Human3015 13:26, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Human3015: My stance or your stance do not matter. What matters at Wikipedia are the facts per WP:V and only that is what should be presented in articles. And the fact is that all of Kashmir, whether Indian-administered/Pakistan-administered, is disputed territory and identified as such by the UN. There is a UN resolution which clearly calls for a plebiscite to determine the fate of the disputed territory. Until and unless such a plebiscite is conducted or a new resolution is adopted, we cannot refer to Kashmir as undisputed, simple. Mar4d (talk) 13:36, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Mar4d:, now you are gone to 1947-48 and denying 2010 or even denying shimla accord and various other developments over the time. And I'm again saying that I'm not writing that "Jammu and Kashmir is undisputed state of India", I'm writing that J & K is "state of India". And there is no source that Kashmir is disputed region. But to make consensus and to resolve this issue I have no objection if one write it as "State administered by India", this is my view, others may object this or will not object. But I think this is best possible consensus we can expect even after hours of discussions. --Human3015 13:47, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Dear both, whether Kashmir is "disputed" or not is vexed question. But putting on this page is certainly an instance of WP:COATRACK unless somebody can demonstrate that it is relevant to the human rights abuses. I am going to reword the first sentence to make it a bit more neutral. Kautilya3 (talk) 13:50, 6 April 2015 (UTC)