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:Agreed in full. Departing from our traditional neutral stance does not look good, either, in the realm of public relations, especially when we base ourselves in the belief that knowledge creates community, instead of dividing it. I request a retraction of this article, too. <span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em"> — [[User:Javert2113|Javert2113]] ([[User talk:Javert2113|Siarad.]]|[[Special:Contributions/Javert2113|¤]])</span> 21:26, 27 March 2022 (UTC) |
:Agreed in full. Departing from our traditional neutral stance does not look good, either, in the realm of public relations, especially when we base ourselves in the belief that knowledge creates community, instead of dividing it. I request a retraction of this article, too. <span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em"> — [[User:Javert2113|Javert2113]] ([[User talk:Javert2113|Siarad.]]|[[Special:Contributions/Javert2113|¤]])</span> 21:26, 27 March 2022 (UTC) |
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:Hey, how about a milder proposal- a rename of the piece? For example, to something like "We stand in solidarity with free knowledge?" [[User:Firestar464|Firestar464]] ([[User talk:Firestar464|talk]]) 06:41, 28 March 2022 (UTC) |
:Hey, how about a milder proposal- a rename of the piece? For example, to something like "We stand in solidarity with free knowledge?" [[User:Firestar464|Firestar464]] ([[User talk:Firestar464|talk]]) 06:41, 28 March 2022 (UTC) |
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::No. We don’t need more options on the table. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 06:59, 28 March 2022 (UTC) |
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{{od}}This in specific is from the team or staff at ''The Signpost''. We are allowed in a newspaper to express our opinions. This is an editorial space, not a Wikipedia article. As far as I can determine every staff member and contributor feels the same way. But it goes beyond that. There are things that we "can't be neutral about" e.g if we see somebody torture an animal most of us will speak out - forget academic views on neutrality. It's just wrong and we should say so. But it's beyond that. We look at our readers - other Wikipedians of all kinds. Let that include the official WMF view as well. What I see is a consensus that thr Russian invasion is just wrong - we stand in solidarity with the Uktainian people. I also see many of our Russian colleagues on Wikipedia. They are saying much the same thing even when they face a 15 year prison term for saying it. I stand with them and especially with Mark Bernstein as well. |
{{od}}This in specific is from the team or staff at ''The Signpost''. We are allowed in a newspaper to express our opinions. This is an editorial space, not a Wikipedia article. As far as I can determine every staff member and contributor feels the same way. But it goes beyond that. There are things that we "can't be neutral about" e.g if we see somebody torture an animal most of us will speak out - forget academic views on neutrality. It's just wrong and we should say so. But it's beyond that. We look at our readers - other Wikipedians of all kinds. Let that include the official WMF view as well. What I see is a consensus that thr Russian invasion is just wrong - we stand in solidarity with the Uktainian people. I also see many of our Russian colleagues on Wikipedia. They are saying much the same thing even when they face a 15 year prison term for saying it. I stand with them and especially with Mark Bernstein as well. |
Revision as of 06:59, 28 March 2022
Discuss this story
We stand in solidarity with Ukraine
... WHAT?
Ever heard of WP:NPOV?
I think it is very likely that the overwhelming majority of Wikipedia editors do indeed support Ukraine. But NPOV is a core policy, and our job as neutral editors is to report accurately what the reliable secondary sources say, not to cheerlead for one side. Taking sides in an armed conflict undermines our core mission, and this partisan piece should be promptly retracted.
And before anyone tries accusing me of being a Putin-apologist or similar, let me absolutely clear that I personally regard all invasions as criminals acts, including the current invasion of Ukraine. But as a Wikipedia editor, I set my views aside. My objection here is simply that Wikipedia is not the place to to take stands for or against what we regard as great wrongs.
I am horrified that those who create the Signpost have so flagrantly trampled over one of our core policies. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:00, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- Said it better than I could have. I was delayed looking for my jaw. Have I stumbled into some satirical imitation of Wikipedia, or is this a misguided attempt at humour? Please, retract it. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:07, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed in full. Departing from our traditional neutral stance does not look good, either, in the realm of public relations, especially when we base ourselves in the belief that knowledge creates community, instead of dividing it. I request a retraction of this article, too. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 21:26, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- Hey, how about a milder proposal- a rename of the piece? For example, to something like "We stand in solidarity with free knowledge?" Firestar464 (talk) 06:41, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- No. We don’t need more options on the table. Dronebogus (talk) 06:59, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
This in specific is from the team or staff at The Signpost. We are allowed in a newspaper to express our opinions. This is an editorial space, not a Wikipedia article. As far as I can determine every staff member and contributor feels the same way. But it goes beyond that. There are things that we "can't be neutral about" e.g if we see somebody torture an animal most of us will speak out - forget academic views on neutrality. It's just wrong and we should say so. But it's beyond that. We look at our readers - other Wikipedians of all kinds. Let that include the official WMF view as well. What I see is a consensus that thr Russian invasion is just wrong - we stand in solidarity with the Uktainian people. I also see many of our Russian colleagues on Wikipedia. They are saying much the same thing even when they face a 15 year prison term for saying it. I stand with them and especially with Mark Bernstein as well.
Please, let's try to be as neutral as possible when writing encyclopedia article. Without of course making a false equivalence for distinctly minority view. But also let Signpostewrs, and all other Wikipedians express their opinions on these pages. Smallbones(smalltalk) 21:35, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- I never think it is appropriate to use Signpost to express your political biases. Yes, I know that for whatever reason this cause is popular right now. Still, nobody asked you for this slacktivism. Chris Troutman (talk) 21:42, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- Chris Troutman is harsh, but correct. I don't think it the right place or the right venue, especially as The Signpost is effectively held out to represent all Wikipedia editors. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 21:51, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- This is ... way beyond what the Signpost needs to be doing. It may not utterly violate our article guidelines, but it's really not what the Signpost should be doing - it's supposed to be news about Wikipedia, not political stand taking. If you want to run a true newspaper - go elsewhere. Ealdgyth (talk) 22:01, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
This violation of Wikipedia's neutrality will give a boat-load of ammunition to detractors who claim that Wikipedia editors have a liberal agenda. Damage control time. Erase this article.Smallchief (talk) 22:08, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Smallchief, a quick glance at WP:NPOV would tell you that it only applies to "encyclopaedic content". The Signpost is not that, and has always been an opinionated editorial. I don't understand why people are so outraged over this. Quite frankly, the writers of The Signpost can do what they want within our policies and community consensus.Also, how on earth is condemning war crimes and the invasion of sovereign Ukrainian territory by a crazy dictator a sign of a "liberal agenda"? ✨ Ed talk! ✨ 22:15, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- The way Wikipedia should approach the worst of human behavior is by sticking to our rules of neutrality and reliability, not by being advocates for anybody or anything. Smallchief (talk) 23:21, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- As a community and for the main project, absolutely! I totally agree. However, consensus says otherwise especially for unofficial, non-encyclopaedic content outside of article space, which makes sense too. My opinion is as The Signpost is not official and is just a group of editors who can happily express their opinions, as it's clear it is the POV of the editorial team, it's above board in an NPOV regard. ✨ Ed talk! ✨ 23:46, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- What I think is that this article expressing support for Ukraine is more likely to be damaging to both Wikipedia and Ukraine than it is to be helpful. The first thing a dictator in trouble (read Putin) does is to find foreign enemies to rally their people behind them in support of the "sacred homeland." There are plenty of places to express your opinion of Putin and the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I see no benefit in an official Wikipedia publication joining in the condemnation of Putin and Russia. One hopes that this article dies unnoticed. Smallchief (talk) 00:06, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Smallchief, the Signpost is not official and is simply a group of editors. The official WMF stance is very much the same, [1]. ✨ Ed talk! ✨ 00:19, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- The WMF defended the right of Wikipedia to publish reliable information about the Russian invasion of Ukraine. It didn't say, "we stand in solidarity with Ukraine." Smallchief (talk) 00:37, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- The Signpost isn’t WMF, and is also less likely to piss off Russia than the WMF. Basically “if they can do it, so can we” Dronebogus (talk) 00:40, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Even if the former takes a stronger stance than the latter, which is reasonable considering the power disparity. Dronebogus (talk) 00:43, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- The Signpost isn’t WMF, and is also less likely to piss off Russia than the WMF. Basically “if they can do it, so can we” Dronebogus (talk) 00:40, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- The WMF defended the right of Wikipedia to publish reliable information about the Russian invasion of Ukraine. It didn't say, "we stand in solidarity with Ukraine." Smallchief (talk) 00:37, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Smallchief, the Signpost is not official and is simply a group of editors. The official WMF stance is very much the same, [1]. ✨ Ed talk! ✨ 00:19, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- What I think is that this article expressing support for Ukraine is more likely to be damaging to both Wikipedia and Ukraine than it is to be helpful. The first thing a dictator in trouble (read Putin) does is to find foreign enemies to rally their people behind them in support of the "sacred homeland." There are plenty of places to express your opinion of Putin and the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I see no benefit in an official Wikipedia publication joining in the condemnation of Putin and Russia. One hopes that this article dies unnoticed. Smallchief (talk) 00:06, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- As a community and for the main project, absolutely! I totally agree. However, consensus says otherwise especially for unofficial, non-encyclopaedic content outside of article space, which makes sense too. My opinion is as The Signpost is not official and is just a group of editors who can happily express their opinions, as it's clear it is the POV of the editorial team, it's above board in an NPOV regard. ✨ Ed talk! ✨ 23:46, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- The way Wikipedia should approach the worst of human behavior is by sticking to our rules of neutrality and reliability, not by being advocates for anybody or anything. Smallchief (talk) 23:21, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- All these negative comments are in incredibly bad faith as far as I can tell. WP:NPOV is not absolute, and saying you oppose an unprovoked war that almost the entire international community has condemned is probably one of the tamest violations of the policy I can imagine. Dronebogus (talk) 22:20, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry, WP:NPOV is absolute. No exceptions. Otherwise you have a soapbox, not an encyclopedia. Smallchief (talk) 22:48, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- It is absolute in regards to articles, not absolute in regards to literally everything. NPOV applies to the encyclopedia and ONLY the encyclopedia. Dronebogus (talk) 23:25, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry, WP:NPOV is absolute. No exceptions. Otherwise you have a soapbox, not an encyclopedia. Smallchief (talk) 22:48, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- The editorial team of the Signpost deserves an apology for this WP:UNCIVIL abuse and attempted coercive censorship of non-objectionable content by readers who simply don’t like it. Dronebogus (talk) 22:31, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- What the heck are you talking about? People are allowed to say if they think a Signpost article sucks. I mean, they're even allowed to nominate a Signpost article at MfD: this has happened eleven times before. The sky did not fall then, and it's not falling now. jp×g 22:52, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- True, but many of the comments I’m seeing appear to be near-personal attacks in reference to a clearly good-faith, if possibly misguided, article. Dronebogus (talk) 23:28, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Dronebogus: please retract your allegation of bad faith.
- If criticising political POV soapboxing is "uncivil" and "abuse" and "coercive", I am a banana. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)
- It is very possible for criticising political POV soapboxing to be "uncivil" and "abuse" and "coercive" AND for you to be a banana. On the Internet nobody knows you’re a dog and all that. Dronebogus (talk) 23:37, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- If any of the above criticism is "uncivil", "abuse", or "coercive", then I'm a coconut. The Signpost is treading on thin ice with such a political issue (the most political single issue I've ever seen), and it has wandered far off its scope, which is to present news relevant to Wikipedia. Most of the critics here have made valid points, and you have to admit that this probably wasn't one of the team's wisest decisions, especially given Putin's ability to block Wikipedia with the snap of his fingers. - ZLEA T\C 23:55, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- Putin could’ve blocked Wikipedia without this article existing, or he could block it now for some totally unrelated reason. Nobody knows what’s going on in that guy’s head, and we shouldn’t scapegoat the Signpost for whatever crazy shit he does next. Dronebogus (talk) 00:11, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- The point is that we shouldn't poke the bear. While it is possible (maybe inevitable) that Russia will block Wikipedia in the near future, every time the Signpost or some other well known group of Wikipedians speaks out "in solidarity" against Russia, it brings that possibility that much closer to becoming reality. If a group of Wikipedians want to express their opinions, each of them can do so on their userpages or even outside Wikipedia. I'll repeat what so many others have already said here, Wikipedia is not to be used as a soapbox. - ZLEA T\C 00:28, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Putin could’ve blocked Wikipedia without this article existing, or he could block it now for some totally unrelated reason. Nobody knows what’s going on in that guy’s head, and we shouldn’t scapegoat the Signpost for whatever crazy shit he does next. Dronebogus (talk) 00:11, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- If any of the above criticism is "uncivil", "abuse", or "coercive", then I'm a coconut. The Signpost is treading on thin ice with such a political issue (the most political single issue I've ever seen), and it has wandered far off its scope, which is to present news relevant to Wikipedia. Most of the critics here have made valid points, and you have to admit that this probably wasn't one of the team's wisest decisions, especially given Putin's ability to block Wikipedia with the snap of his fingers. - ZLEA T\C 23:55, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Dronebogus, so you believe that a banana can edit an encyclopedia.
- Good luck with that. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:21, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- I said it was possible, not that it was likely Dronebogus (talk) 00:27, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- It is very possible for criticising political POV soapboxing to be "uncivil" and "abuse" and "coercive" AND for you to be a banana. On the Internet nobody knows you’re a dog and all that. Dronebogus (talk) 23:37, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- What the heck are you talking about? People are allowed to say if they think a Signpost article sucks. I mean, they're even allowed to nominate a Signpost article at MfD: this has happened eleven times before. The sky did not fall then, and it's not falling now. jp×g 22:52, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- A milder rebuke. Yes, it is clearly an editorial expressing staff feelings rather than an encyclopedia article or even a news story. Still, better to go more softly. Yes, the side that it backs is the side that is right in the dispute, and the other side is callously and foolishly endangering Ukraine, Europe and the world. Still better to go more softly. Jim.henderson (talk) 22:38, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- While I don't have as much of a problem with this statement than I would if it came from WMF, it is my opinion that the Signpost is overstepping its scope by "standing in solidarity" for a single political cause. Don't get me wrong, I agree that Russia's actions are criminal at the very least, but when the de-facto official newsletter of Wikipedia, which supposedly stands for WP:NPOV, picks a side in an ongoing conflict, it doesn't reflect well on Wikipedia as a whole. The Russian government does not exactly have a favorable view of Wikipedia, which is likely one of the last places Russians can get reliable information on the war. As far as I know, Wikipedia is not currently blocked in Russia, but the Russian government has threatened to do so, and we don't want to give them an excuse to block Wikipedia and remove one of the last semi-reliable sources available to the Russian people. - ZLEA T\C 23:27, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- A far more reasonable criticism than “nobody asked for your slacktivism.” Dronebogus (talk) 23:29, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- I fully support signpost's right to do this, as they are a independent publication who do not claim to represent the entire EN Wikipedia. I also fully agree with them, though I do think this needs to be a bit more clear that this is a editorial, for outside users of Wikipedia who may try and misconstrue this. Sea Cow (talk) 23:54, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- I didn't realize that so many Wikipedia editors didn't understand the concept of an editorial—which is precisely what this column is. -Indy beetle (talk) 01:00, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- It's not that we don't realize that it is an editorial, we recognize that this editorial is overstepping the scope of the Signpost (the de facto official newsletter of Wikipedia) and potentially jeopardizing the availability of Wikipedia, one of the last sources of the truth available, to the Russians. - ZLEA T\C 01:17, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- This discussion has gone from “The Signpost are useless slacktivists” to “The Signpost are the second-most powerful force in Wikimedia after the Foundation” Dronebogus (talk) 01:43, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- I stand by the editorial team on this issue. An editorial in and of itself is an opinion. The first thing I thought of when I saw the protests on multiple pages was First they came .... But perhaps more apt for the current situation, is to ask: If Wikipedia had existed in 2001 when September 11 attacks occured, would editors complain if the Signpost team condemned the attacks? I have to ask, because when that happened I was at work (not on the east coast), and the entire world flipped upside down as we scrambled with whether or not we were next. And through all the terror and fright, I had a supervisor who had recently taken a philosophy class titled, "There is no right or wrong, just different points of view," and she wandered around the workplace trying to convince us that whoever had done the deed was entitled to their POV. That seems to me what's happening here. The editorial team is within its scope. If we don't speak up, what does that make us? — Maile (talk) 01:54, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Al-Qaeda isn't exactly a world power that can cut off access to the truth to millions of people in the largest country on the planet. Russia is, so what good is poking the bear going to do if it could lead to the last speck of truth being taken away from the Russian people? The Wikipedia should be doing everything it can to ensure the Russians have access to the truth. Editorials like this are counterproductive. We already know that Putin would block Wikipedia, and it's a miracle he hasn't done it a month after launching an invasion of Ukraine. - ZLEA T\C 03:30, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- If it’s a “miracle” then once again why are we blaming the Signpost, a very modestly famous “local paper”, in advance for triggering Putin? Dronebogus (talk) 05:19, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Al-Qaeda isn't exactly a world power that can cut off access to the truth to millions of people in the largest country on the planet. Russia is, so what good is poking the bear going to do if it could lead to the last speck of truth being taken away from the Russian people? The Wikipedia should be doing everything it can to ensure the Russians have access to the truth. Editorials like this are counterproductive. We already know that Putin would block Wikipedia, and it's a miracle he hasn't done it a month after launching an invasion of Ukraine. - ZLEA T\C 03:30, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- If I am reading this discussion correctly, it seems like certain people are for and others against the Signpost publishing editorials and/or taking stances on current events (perhaps certain types of events and those that might not be directly connected to Wikipedia). Though it should be noted that not all editorials or other columns that the Signpost could write should be written. —Danre98(talk^contribs) 03:26, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- The first sentence of WP:NPOV mentions
encyclopedic content
. That core content policy also mentions "article" and "articles" over 30 times. The policy never mentions talk pages or project space. This is in contrast to another really important policy, WP:BLP, which goes out of its way to say that it applies everywhere on Wikipedia, without exception. Clearly, this editorial cannot be in violation of NPOV because that policy does not apply to The Signpost, or any other civil, non-disruptive expressions of reasonable opinion outside of encyclopedia articles. The OP and some other editors object to the phrase "stand in solidarity" in the headline but Solidarity is described in our own article asan awareness of shared interests, objectives, standards, and sympathies creating a psychological sense of unity of groups or classes
. Wikipedia, after all, iswritten and maintained by a community of volunteers through a model of open collaboration
and our goal is free educational content for all of humanity, including the residents of Ukraine and Russia. The actual content of the editorial seems perfectly compatible with Wikipedia's goals, and the body of the editorial was calling for improved coverage of Russia, Ukraine and the current war. How can any Wikipedian object to that? Cullen328 (talk) 04:33, 28 March 2022 (UTC)