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:::::To me, it seems these are just non-copyrightable lists. The characters themselves and their names are copyright of the company that owns the rights to the show, but it is certainly fair use for both Soap Central and Wikipedia to use them in commentary about the show. It would be impossible to accurately list a family tree that is correct but doesn't agree with the show or what others have written about the show. It's just like a tree of related animal species. -- [[User:Dougie WII|Dougie WII]] ([[User talk:Dougie WII|talk]]) |
:::::To me, it seems these are just non-copyrightable lists. The characters themselves and their names are copyright of the company that owns the rights to the show, but it is certainly fair use for both Soap Central and Wikipedia to use them in commentary about the show. It would be impossible to accurately list a family tree that is correct but doesn't agree with the show or what others have written about the show. It's just like a tree of related animal species. -- [[User:Dougie WII|Dougie WII]] ([[User talk:Dougie WII|talk]]) |
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::::::Dougie, I don't think you're understanding, at least not what I've removed from the Days' pages. The lists were exact copies including the legend and identifiers. That's proprietary property. SoapCentral.com makes up those identifiers and people just copy the lists, which aren't always accurate. They've done the work, their site is copyrighted, doing a copy and paste from their site to here violates that. Just because something is "just a list," (something frowned upon by Wiki - see [[WP:LISTCRUFT]]) doesn't give us the right to copy and paste someone else's work. And, just a side note, many genealogists would have a problem with someone calling a family tree "just a list." [[User:IrishLass0128|IrishLass]] ([[User talk:IrishLass0128|talk]]) 13:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC) |
::::::Dougie, I don't think you're understanding, at least not what I've removed from the Days' pages. The lists were exact copies including the legend and identifiers. That's proprietary property. SoapCentral.com makes up those identifiers and people just copy the lists, which aren't always accurate. They've done the work, their site is copyrighted, doing a copy and paste from their site to here violates that. Just because something is "just a list," (something frowned upon by Wiki - see [[WP:LISTCRUFT]]) doesn't give us the right to copy and paste someone else's work. And, just a side note, many genealogists would have a problem with someone calling a family tree "just a list." [[User:IrishLass0128|IrishLass]] ([[User talk:IrishLass0128|talk]]) 13:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC) |
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==Notice of temporary injunction== |
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I am letting you all know that there is currently a [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Episodes_and_characters_2#Temporary_injunction|temporary injunction]] that applies to '''all editors'''[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Episodes_and_characters_2/Proposed_decision&diff=188912442&oldid=188911270] while [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Episodes and characters 2|this arbitration case]] is open. The injunction was enacted on February 3, 2008 and it [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Episodes_and_characters_2#Temporary_injunction|reads]]: |
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"For the duration of this case, no editor shall redirect or delete any currently existing article regarding a television series episode or character; nor un-redirect or un-delete any currently redirected or deleted article on such a topic, nor apply or remove a tag related to notability to such an article. Administrators are authorized to revert such changes on sight, and to block any editors that persist in making them after being warned of this injunction." |
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The arbitration committee would like all editors to hold off on such actions while [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Episodes and characters 2|the case]] is open. I will also notify you when the injunction ends. Thank you. --[[User:Pixelface|Pixelface]] ([[User talk:Pixelface|talk]]) 04:06, 11 February 2008 (UTC) |
Revision as of 04:06, 11 February 2008
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Index |
Notable past discussions
The following talk pages discussions have been archived to keep this page manageable, but may be of interest to members or helpful in current discussions. — TAnthonyTalk 02:59, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
- Too many relationships - the ongoing debate of what is notable and how to list them
- Unified format for soap relations? and subsection Infobox - more on relatives
- The question of tense - past vs. present for fiction, the other big debate
- Rating articles and combining stubs into composite articles
- The new Soap character infobox
Membership
This Project seems so organized and full of potential, and yet current membership is so low; anyone have any ideas how to get more formal participants? It seems like there are so many people editing various soap articles and yet they are, as a whole, underdeveloped and often poorly written. I suppose there are too many people who just like to update ridiculous details every time they receive their latest issue of Soap Opera Digest. TheRhani 17:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'm obviously a bit behind on the times with this suggestion... but I have an idea. Why not each month, pick a different soap opera/character/storyline/supercouple/unrated article/etc... that's in need of editing and have that as the main focus? Not only will each article get the attention it needs, it may attract viewers of that particular soap opera/character/storyline/supercouple/etc... to join in the project. Plus, it would be a group effort and that's what we're here for. Again, just a suggestion. —Evaglow 03:39, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- Sounds like a good idea, but many of us don't watch all the soaps. I only watch Passions. - Dougie WII 14:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- Then you can contribute to the Passions articles better than those of us who only catch it when our DVR decides to record it. I was getting the same ep two-four times and had to take it off the record list. It was sad. I only watch Days of our Lives but know how the articles look so I can format and check grammar and what not. I just defer to others when it comes to plot line. Like if there's an AMC issue, I know Flyer22 is well versed, just like she knows I'm well versed on Days. Play to your strengths and don't be afraid to ask questions. IrishLass0128 14:28, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- Evaglow to address that ~ I see one issue and that being the "too many cooks in the kitchen" principle. If you are focusing on one article and have all the project members looking at it, there's potential for conflict and possible edit warring. I do think picking an article that's good and using it as an example and then having a list of articles needing expansion (like some of the stubs for characters with long histories -- Kayla Brady is an example) is something that needs to be done. But featuring one article for everyone to work on would cause chaos, IMO. IrishLass0128 14:31, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- A lot of other Projects do a "collaboration of the month" thing which actually works well; especially in our case, not every editor in the project is going to ven loom at the article in questuion, let alone make edits. We should at least try it. But just a bunch of us make edits to a particular article isn't going to "advertise" the Project any more than the Talk page banners already do ... what if I create some kind of "This article has been selected for improvement by WP:SOAPS" banner template to put on the Talk pages of the chosen articles? Then we're (hopefully) getting people's attention but also guiding them back here. — TAnthonyTalk 15:48, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- I like the idea of a banner of a some kind to advertise. It may even attract anonymous editors to create an account so they can join in fully. Aslo, when I originally suggested this idea, I had in mind people chipping in on particular articles to format, spell check, add images or relevant templates, etc... I didn't mean for those who don't watch a particular soap to try and write a summary or anything like that. My idea is the same as this project, to work together on improving all articles relating to soap operas. I hope that made sense. —Evaglow 04:22, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- A lot of other Projects do a "collaboration of the month" thing which actually works well; especially in our case, not every editor in the project is going to ven loom at the article in questuion, let alone make edits. We should at least try it. But just a bunch of us make edits to a particular article isn't going to "advertise" the Project any more than the Talk page banners already do ... what if I create some kind of "This article has been selected for improvement by WP:SOAPS" banner template to put on the Talk pages of the chosen articles? Then we're (hopefully) getting people's attention but also guiding them back here. — TAnthonyTalk 15:48, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- Evaglow to address that ~ I see one issue and that being the "too many cooks in the kitchen" principle. If you are focusing on one article and have all the project members looking at it, there's potential for conflict and possible edit warring. I do think picking an article that's good and using it as an example and then having a list of articles needing expansion (like some of the stubs for characters with long histories -- Kayla Brady is an example) is something that needs to be done. But featuring one article for everyone to work on would cause chaos, IMO. IrishLass0128 14:31, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- Then you can contribute to the Passions articles better than those of us who only catch it when our DVR decides to record it. I was getting the same ep two-four times and had to take it off the record list. It was sad. I only watch Days of our Lives but know how the articles look so I can format and check grammar and what not. I just defer to others when it comes to plot line. Like if there's an AMC issue, I know Flyer22 is well versed, just like she knows I'm well versed on Days. Play to your strengths and don't be afraid to ask questions. IrishLass0128 14:28, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- Sounds like a good idea, but many of us don't watch all the soaps. I only watch Passions. - Dougie WII 14:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
OK, following up on this, I created a banner: {{Soaps Collaboration}}
Wasn't sure what it should say exactly, but ... I'm going to base the Collaboration section on the main page for now so more people are likely to notice it, eventually we can move it to the subpage. Anyway, it's really not much different than the "Articles needing attention" thing (which it will replace) except for the banner. For now people should just list articles, eventually we can nominate or whatever like other projects do. I'm not sure how effective only a monthly article would be, as we don't have a lot of members at the moment and many have particular soaps they know. I also don't think the banners ever have to be removed even after the articles are worked on, any advertising helps. Tell me what you think, I'm just "being bold." — TAnthonyTalk 17:55, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Non-head writers/breakdown writers, etc.
Best title I could come up with. Okay, an anonymous IP address has created a bunch of breakdown writer pages i.e. Tracey Thomson. There are many, many more that look just like this one. Is this something that qualifies as notable? Should all these pages even exist?IrishLass0128 12:52, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- I honestly think they are not notable; Wikipedia is no more intended to be a duplicate of IMDB.com than it is a duplicate of Soap Opera Digest! I am hesitant to nominate any for deletion, but I imagine someone ultimately will. — TAnthonyTalk 15:35, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- Pick me! Pick me!! If others agree, I'll do it. I'm getting good at nominating things for deletion. IrishLass0128 15:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- I say feel free to. Unless they are writers such as Hogan Sheffer or James E. Reilly who are (former) head writers which have articles often written about them, featured in magazines commonly, that sort of thing. It's a good idea. --Miss Burkle 04:00, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- Personally, I like the idea of providing a list of writers (if we're providing a list of minor characters, we should definitely provide lists of those who wrote the characters). But in terms of actually having a separate bio on each writer, this should only be done if the writer has been written about, and satisfies the notability requirements at WP:BIO. --Elonka 16:28, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- I say feel free to. Unless they are writers such as Hogan Sheffer or James E. Reilly who are (former) head writers which have articles often written about them, featured in magazines commonly, that sort of thing. It's a good idea. --Miss Burkle 04:00, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- Pick me! Pick me!! If others agree, I'll do it. I'm getting good at nominating things for deletion. IrishLass0128 15:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Image issues
The BetacommandBot has been especially annoying lately, as the "deadline" for all images to be compliant with WP:NFCC in a "machine-readable format" (or be deleted) is coming up in March. I wanted to give everyone a little help to get this thing off our backs!
The most common issue with images is that they're lacking certain necessary details; in particular, the article names in which the image is used must be noted on the desciption page (not just auto-displayed under "The following pages link to this file") and each use must have its own fair use rationale. The best way to fix the problem once and for all is to use a fair use template; this allows the bots to detect that all pertinent information is provided. The least cumbersome templates right now are {{Non-free image data}} and {{Non-free image rationale}}, which are used in conjunction with each other.
Each image should contain one instance of {{Non-free image data}} with all parameters filled in, and then one instance of {{Non-free image rationale}} for each use.
I've just implemented templates on all One Life to Live images. Since most soap images seem to be used in just a single article, feel free to just copy the code on any of these images for your use (including the purpose/rationale), obviously changing performer, character, show, source and category info, etc. Note that all parameters except "other information" are required. It is recommended to note the uploader of the current version under "source", whether or not an actual source weblink is available.
Here are some suggested examples for copying and study:
- Image:OLTL David Fumero.jpg - Clean example of a character screenshot which is used in only one article.
- Image:ToddBlair-TSJKD.jpg - Example of a promotional image used in one article; note that screenshots are preferred to promotional images by the "Fair Use police," so depending on the use you may still get a hard time with these.
- Image:Super Friends.jpg - Image used in multiple articles; note that the "image data" (blue) template appears once but the "rationale" (pink) template is repeated, and the "purpose/rationale" may be slightly different for each, depending on that particular use.
Hope this helps! — TAnthonyTalk 00:48, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
- So does this mean all the stuff we went back and re-tagged in the last couple days is a moot point and we have to redo it AGAIN? Thank goodness for "contributes" lists. IrishLass0128 13:40, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
- No, you don't have to change anything you've already done, this is just an relatively easy/efficient way to do some in the future, and do preventative maintenance. By the way, in correspondence with Betacommand I learned that his bot only looks for image description pages missing the article name(s) in which the image is used. So just adding that info will thwart the bot, but we all should make sure all images we care about have all necessary info to prevent future bots from tagging them. — TAnthonyTalk 16:05, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Ages in family trees
I don't know if this is just a bothersome problem in the Days' article or if it's a recurrent problem. See Horton family (Days of our Lives). There are dates listed for people's birthdates that cannot be known. I was under the impression that if someone was not born on screen, the do not have an exact age since age is fluid on soaps. How is it these pages have exact dates of birth (some of which are just outright hysterical). Peter Reckell is 50is yet Bo's age is listed as 44 and he's got a nearly 30 year old son that was born on screen. Is this ridiculousness a common problem and how can we fix it? 90% of just the Horton page is unverifiable information, just stuff someone made up as they went along. IrishLass0128 19:54, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- I see random birthdates and ages on a lot of articles, and I delete most of them as unsourced. I will sometimes add a {{fact}} tag, but usually this info is so trivial that it's not a big loss if you remove something that turns out to be true. Seriously, by leaving them in I think we're inviting critcism of our articles. Two articles I can think of with actual sourced offscreen birthdates are Marty Saybrooke and Marcie McBain (and Marcie doesn't even have a year). — TAnthonyTalk 23:51, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- In defense of some of the dates, they may be based on a comment someone made in the show about someone's age, etc. (the Jessica Buchanan article has an interesting age footnote). But that mention has to be noted in the article or the info should be taken out. — TAnthonyTalk 23:54, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Tense, this needs to be reviewed again
Realizing "fiction" is supposed to be in present tense, broadcast/viewed fiction doesn't meet present tense criteria. This paragraph is a joke: When Days of our Lives premiered in 1965, the show revolved around the tragedies which befell the Horton family. The Hortons are led by patriarch Tom, Chief of Internal Medicine at Salem University Hospital, and his wife, homemaker Alice. Together they have five children: Tom Jr., Addie, Mickey, Bill, and Marie. Over time, additional families, such as the Merritts, Hunters, Bannings, and Andersons were brought to the show to interact with the Hortons and serve as springboards for more dramatic storylines. Tom Horton has been dead for nearly a couple of decades. The editorial comment of "pretend it's on DVD" is ridiculous. Broadcast fiction and written fiction aren't the same things. This issue seriously needs to be revisited because the Days article is a joke being lead by a dead man. Tommy, Addie,and Marie are also dead. This "present tense" crud just DOES NOT work in broadcast fiction of any kind. Maybe teaming up with the television project would be a good idea to get this corrected. CelticGreen (talk) 03:12, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think the tense is the issue; the paragraph just needs to not center around Tom and the old families. — TAnthonyTalk 04:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- It was just an example. I could give a dozen articles all of which sound ridiculous when attempting to be in present tense but still be accurate. CelticGreen (talk) 04:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'd probably disagree on your interpretation of "ridiculous," but honestly, you can write it the way you want it for now and I don't think anyone will have a big issue. Plenty of articles are still in past tense. — TAnthonyTalk 04:20, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- Go look at the talk page where the editor says to "pretend" the show is in repeats. I don't know about you, but I don't live in a pretend world (if I did I wouldn't be driving a 10 year old car and living pay check to paycheck). We shouldn't have to "pretend" when it comes to articles and neither should we expect non-editors to pretend either. Current tense for a soap should include past tense for past events. And note I say current not present making a definitive difference between a soaps' current status verses trying to make a show that's been on for 40+ years present tense. The idea of "pretending" is just ludicrous. Do we really want people to come here and "pretend" what time frame we are on?? CelticGreen (talk) 04:26, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think he wants everybody to pretend, he's trying to make a point for those who don't like/understand present tense. I know soap fans have the Soap Opera Digest-type summaries in mind and we consider the plots to occur in the past, but I think if an article is well written, it makes perfect sense. — TAnthonyTalk 04:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- TAnthony, aren't you the one always saying "be bold"? Why not "be bold" and address this in the proper manner. I've had this tense discussion with a friend who only edits one article. She has problem adding dates because she feels that doesn't flow with this whole "present tense" issue. Why not be bold and discuss the concept of using true time lines and writing the articles correctly rather than pretending something that isn't true. I read the comments, they do literally say to "try pretending the show is available on DVD." Well, as much as I like writing a good fan fic, I can't pretend to that extent. Why not discuss this beyond the walls of this project? You were bold enough to make a soap character infobox, why not take being bold one step further? IrishLass 14:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- I've only been editing these things for a short while, but have already encountered these problems. I really think for these soaps you need to play it by ear and try to do what's appropriate in particular situation. Mixed tenses aren't all that bad if it makes sense in this context. -- Dougie WII 14:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- He's saying "try pretending" because editors are having trouble "getting it." You've all seen me argue this before, I think most anti-present tense people are looking at these articles in too much of an in-universe manner, not from an encyclopedic perspective. I am pretty much pro-present tense, so I have no interest in taking it to a higher court. I totally see the argument from the other side and even agree to some extent that the tense thing can be awkward in some cases, but I really think most of the time it's just a matter of fixing the writing. Look at Alexis Colby; the article isn't complete, but I think the tenses read well. You're following along chronologically, it works. — TAnthonyTalk 17:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I completely disagree that she's saying "try pretending." Read the edit summary where he directly says "Tweaking tenses (fiction should be in present tense). It's tricky with soaps, but pretend the episodes are all in repeats or on DVD, and it makes more sense" There is no TRY in that sentence. And, sorry, your Alexis Colby doesn't work for me either. The show is over and on DVD. We are talking about an ever changing shows where it is impossible for everything to be in present tense. I don't have a problem "getting it" in relation to other works of fiction, but on a show that's run for 40 plus years having an article written in present tense and a dead character being the head of the show is a bit insane. PS ~ Elonka is a she. IrishLass 17:56, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- He's saying "try pretending" because editors are having trouble "getting it." You've all seen me argue this before, I think most anti-present tense people are looking at these articles in too much of an in-universe manner, not from an encyclopedic perspective. I am pretty much pro-present tense, so I have no interest in taking it to a higher court. I totally see the argument from the other side and even agree to some extent that the tense thing can be awkward in some cases, but I really think most of the time it's just a matter of fixing the writing. Look at Alexis Colby; the article isn't complete, but I think the tenses read well. You're following along chronologically, it works. — TAnthonyTalk 17:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- I've only been editing these things for a short while, but have already encountered these problems. I really think for these soaps you need to play it by ear and try to do what's appropriate in particular situation. Mixed tenses aren't all that bad if it makes sense in this context. -- Dougie WII 14:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- TAnthony, aren't you the one always saying "be bold"? Why not "be bold" and address this in the proper manner. I've had this tense discussion with a friend who only edits one article. She has problem adding dates because she feels that doesn't flow with this whole "present tense" issue. Why not be bold and discuss the concept of using true time lines and writing the articles correctly rather than pretending something that isn't true. I read the comments, they do literally say to "try pretending the show is available on DVD." Well, as much as I like writing a good fan fic, I can't pretend to that extent. Why not discuss this beyond the walls of this project? You were bold enough to make a soap character infobox, why not take being bold one step further? IrishLass 14:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think he wants everybody to pretend, he's trying to make a point for those who don't like/understand present tense. I know soap fans have the Soap Opera Digest-type summaries in mind and we consider the plots to occur in the past, but I think if an article is well written, it makes perfect sense. — TAnthonyTalk 04:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- Go look at the talk page where the editor says to "pretend" the show is in repeats. I don't know about you, but I don't live in a pretend world (if I did I wouldn't be driving a 10 year old car and living pay check to paycheck). We shouldn't have to "pretend" when it comes to articles and neither should we expect non-editors to pretend either. Current tense for a soap should include past tense for past events. And note I say current not present making a definitive difference between a soaps' current status verses trying to make a show that's been on for 40+ years present tense. The idea of "pretending" is just ludicrous. Do we really want people to come here and "pretend" what time frame we are on?? CelticGreen (talk) 04:26, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'd probably disagree on your interpretation of "ridiculous," but honestly, you can write it the way you want it for now and I don't think anyone will have a big issue. Plenty of articles are still in past tense. — TAnthonyTalk 04:20, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- It was just an example. I could give a dozen articles all of which sound ridiculous when attempting to be in present tense but still be accurate. CelticGreen (talk) 04:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
So the tense issue is here again. Guys, when I first showed up at Wikipedia (in what seems like a lifetime ago in Wiki-time, even though it was rather several months ago in real time), I hated the idea of present tense. Now, however, I love it. And I feel that it works accordingly. As you've heard, the tense is meant to flow as if you are viewing those scenes, considering that if you were viewing those scenes, it would be in the present. When I read a plot summary now, and it is in past tense, it doesn't click to me as being the best way to present the plot. If a passage in a plot reads: In 1999, the two get married and live happy lives, that's not off, even if he's dead, because it's going along as if you are viewing what is happening...and it even mentions that it's back in 1999.
As for mixing past tense with present tense, this passage from the Maggie Stone article, for instance, works and is an instant where it can be mixed: After feeling jilted by Bianca a second time in what she believes to be Bianca having chosen Babe as a lover, she enters into a romantic relationship with bad boy Jonathan Lavery. Maggie, unaware that when she found Bianca in bed with Babe earlier, it was a ploy to trap J.R. into confessing that he framed Jamie, wraps herself far into the life of Jonathan. That works.
I know that both of you, CelticGreen and IrishLass, don't really like present tense for plots, or rather in concerns to soap opera, but I just wanted to drop by and state that I prefer present tense on this matter.
TAnthony, I know you prefer present tense as well, so I suppose I'm in your camp about this one. Flyer22 23:34, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry, I know Elonka, I didn't notice who wrote it. But she obviously is trying to explain the perspective, not actually telling you to live in a fantasy world. The existence of DVDs has nothing to do with anything — she was, plain and simple, trying to dumb the concept down. Only the 1st two seasons of Dynasty are on DVD, articles like Alexis or Claudia cover many seasons not actually available. And the show is over, but what happened in 2003 on Days is also over. My point in giving those examples is that the tense reads fine, it is not awkward, even though these things "happened" in 1985. The problem with the Days paragraph is not the tense, it's that it's not written as it should be.
- I've explained this before, but you're all still thinking of the show as something that actually happened. But an episode is an artistic work, created over a period of days, and the day these soap events "happen" is just the day this work is shown for the first time. A soap day can last many real days. Actual time has no bearing on a fictional work like this. The fact that you can or can't actually experience an episode again has absolutely nothing to do with what the proper tense should be. The whole point of the policy is to stylistically differentiate between real world and fictional in-universe events. When you read a book, the events are essentially happening as you read it. The same is true of a plot summary because the events didn't actually happen. Yes, they were performed by living people, but it's like a painting, it's not real. You can choose to ignore the policy but you are never going to get it changed, there is no valid reason to. — TAnthonyTalk 23:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- By the way, thanks Flyer, you put it very well and perhaps more persuasively than I did. I will say that I just looked at the Days paragraph again, and it is a tricky one; it's kind of talking about the story from both an in- and out-of-universe perspective at different times, which is why the present tense is awkward in context. I'm not expecting you all to suddenly love present tense, but I'm going to attempt a copyedit of that paragraph and see what you think. — TAnthonyTalk 00:00, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Copyright vio pictures
I removed two pictures (same picture, two files) from three articles due to blatant copyright violation. The JPI logo was actually on the pictures. I tagged them with the image copyright violation tag but they are still in existence. How do you go about getting something like that deleted permanently? ETA links [1] and [2]. IrishLass 18:54, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- A bot would've caught them soon enough as unused images, and they'd be deleted. But I've tagged them with {{subst:orfud}} to speed up the process (it still may take a few days for an Admin to get around to doing it). — TAnthonyTalk 19:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Soap opera writers and producers
I was just wondering if anyone knows if soap opera writers and producers should be included in the project. Agnes Nixon's and Megan McTavish's pages are both included under the projects but many are not, including William J. Bell and the creator of the medium, Irna Phillips. Any ideas? Glo145 22:28, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- That's a really good question, I don't think we've ever discussed that here. I would think that writers, producers and even actors whose careers have primarily involved soaps (or are particularly notable in the soap world for some reason) should be included. But definitely NOT every actor who is on or has ever been on a soap. The criteria should probably be whether or not a person is notable enough in the genre that improving their article would be a significant contribution to soap articles in general. Like, Irna Phillips and Susan Lucci definitely, and other performers like Genie Francis or Peter Bergman. But I don't think expanding the Grayson McCouch article (as hot as he may be) is necessarily a worthwhile goal for this Project. What does the group think? — TAnthonyTalk 23:17, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- Okay, I see what you are talking about. So notable writers and producers like James E. Reilly, Lorraine Broderick, Michael Malone, and Jill Farren Phelps should be added but not just some average writer who worked on a soap for a couple of years.Glo145 01:16, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
I've just declined the speedy deletion of this article, but it does have some notability problems and I thought it might be worthwhile to bring it to the attention of this group. Anything you can do to bolster its importance (or, alternatively, to recommend its deletion) would be very useful and I hope it's within your mandate. Accounting4Taste:talk 05:26, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, we've been "put on notice"
See the last comment on this AfD. Given the desire by individuals that feel soaps aren't worthy, we will need to be dilligent or lose mass amounts of articles. Thought project members should know. IrishLass (talk) 18:01, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for this; I obviously don't know anything about this particular character, but this is exactly the kind of thing I've been worried about. We should obviously all do what we can to improve the articles within our individual scopes of expertise, but also make sure the bulk of soap articles are on someone's watchlist or another so we can weigh in on any AfDs that come up. — TAnthonyTalk 17:22, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
- After seeing Abe Carver on the AfD by the same person that nominated or had a hand in the Matilda Hunter nomination, I put every Days character on my watch list. What is the whole "real world" issue anyway? I don't understand that. To me anything that someone in the "real world" wants to know about makes it real world relevant. I just think now is the time to truly be vigilant, participate in AfD arguments, as I asked people to do with the Matilda Hunter AfD, and try and improve articles that end up on the AfD. Everyone needs to be vigilant and we need more help and to be more proactive as a project. IrishLass (talk) 17:37, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Congratulations!
Just wanted to issue a "formal" congrats here to everyone who has worked so hard on Pauline Fowler; as you probably know, that article was finally promoted to FA status. In particular I wanted to give a handshake/pat-on-the-back to the ever-awesome Elonka, who pretty much initiated the FA attempts and guided the article's improvement with her expertise and diplomacy. Congratulations! — TAnthonyTalk 17:40, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Family trees (general discussion)
I have looked around and there is no set consensus on family trees, styles, should they exist or not, etc. I would like to get some discussion going as to the actual need for these and to get a consensus decision as to if all or none of the pages should have them. IrishLass (talk) 15:23, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
- I kind of like the way they are done here Crane family tree, although more codes may be needed, such as to disambiguate raper and rapee in such situations. -- Dougie WII (talk) 01:59, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- I have issue with rape and affairs even being on a family tree. Family tree implies FAMILY. No woman considers her rapist family. I know, on occassion a rapist and his victim get together (Ethan/Theresa; Luke/Laura; Sami/Austin; EJ/Sami) and either fall in love and /or have a kid but to add rapist to a family tree is just wrong. To add a "rape" notation is wrong, especially when there's questionable attitudes toward the sexual encounter. Technically Sami and Theresa raped Austin and Ethan respectively, but a lot of fans look over that type of rape. Then there's the hotly debated incident between Sami and EJ. That's my problem with the Crane and Horton family trees, they are bias. I agree we need to decide to change all or eliminate all but whatever is done, it should be uniform. 02:06, 2 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by KellyAna (talk • contribs)
- I see what you're saying, but if the rape produces a child it has to be there since the child needs to be in the tree. I think noting the type of relationship that the two had to produce the child is informational. Of course rapes and affairs that do not produce children shouldn't be in a family tree. -- Dougie WII (talk) 02:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- I think we should do that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Melbrooksfan101 (talk • contribs) 21:32, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- I have issue with rape and affairs even being on a family tree. Family tree implies FAMILY. No woman considers her rapist family. I know, on occassion a rapist and his victim get together (Ethan/Theresa; Luke/Laura; Sami/Austin; EJ/Sami) and either fall in love and /or have a kid but to add rapist to a family tree is just wrong. To add a "rape" notation is wrong, especially when there's questionable attitudes toward the sexual encounter. Technically Sami and Theresa raped Austin and Ethan respectively, but a lot of fans look over that type of rape. Then there's the hotly debated incident between Sami and EJ. That's my problem with the Crane and Horton family trees, they are bias. I agree we need to decide to change all or eliminate all but whatever is done, it should be uniform. 02:06, 2 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by KellyAna (talk • contribs)
Peer reviews
Can we create a peer review section to request other members of the project to give feedback on pages you've worked on or created? -- Dougie WII (talk) 03:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Please comment. D.M.N. (talk) 21:10, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you for the notification. I'll put it on the front page of the project too. IrishLass (talk) 21:14, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Twin Peaks characters
The Twin Peaks character pages are in pretty bad shape and could use some work by someone knowledgeable about the show (i.e. not me). I have tagged the stubbier ones for merger into the (new) article List of Twin Peaks characters, but it might be better to group them by family or type (e.g. putting all the spirits into one article). I found them after seeing a discussion at [[Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion and while I don't see a need to delete content outright, really do feel that the topic is probably better served by fewer better articles than alot of seperate low quality ones. Eluchil404 (talk) 06:58, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Family And Relationship Info
I don't think that the family and relationship info should be in some infobox. it should be out in open like everything else. Somebody please do something about this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by King Gemini (talk • contribs) 07:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- I actually like the infobox idea, as it was something we developed consensus for during work on the Pauline Fowler article, which is now at Featured status. Can you please explain more as to what you don't like about it? --Elonka 08:10, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- I love it. It makes the articles cleaner and it was discussed before it was done. I think TAnthony can find the previous discussion. I know he'll agree that it is in there and looks better (since he took the time to create the infobox). It cleans up the articles and makes them look better and more encyclopedic. I agree with Elonka, it stays where it is. IrishLass (talk) 15:14, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- Besides being more visually appealing, the endless lists within the article actually negatively impact an article's quality when we're talking about assessments and such. That's how it came about with Pauline Fowler, and that article obviously went up to Featured Status. But really, any important relationships should already be noted in an article naturally, like the character's parents and siblings and spouses as they relate to storylines. It's really unnecessary to list someone's adopted great-grandchild within the article if the fact isn't worthy enough to be mentioned in a plot summary area. Anyway, the info is still available. — TAnthonyTalk 16:51, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- I love it. It makes the articles cleaner and it was discussed before it was done. I think TAnthony can find the previous discussion. I know he'll agree that it is in there and looks better (since he took the time to create the infobox). It cleans up the articles and makes them look better and more encyclopedic. I agree with Elonka, it stays where it is. IrishLass (talk) 15:14, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
SoapCentral.com
I've brought this discussion (copied-and-pasted it) from Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard so that we, as a project, can discuss this topic:
I was going to post this in the ghthesoap.com section above, but decided to give this topic its own section. What about www.soapcentral.com? There really aren't many soap opera sites out there that Wikipedia considers reliable. Soapcentral.com, while some may call it a fansite, is extremely reliable, as seen with articles like As Strike Winds On, Soaps Are a Hot Commodity and WGA Takes Issue With Soap Opinion Column. And Wikipedia's soap opera articles rely heavily on it. It's right up there with soapoperadigest.com in its reliability and I'd like to get some feedback on it now, as I would hate to see it banned (you know, blacklisted) from Wikipedia without most of us who use it knowing. It's considered a reliable source by WikiProject Soap Operas. And it serves articles such as Todd Manning well, where some of the information may not be available elsewhere on the internet in reliable sources, and when access to magazine articles where the same information could be accessed is unavailable to the editor simply because they don't have or know about the article. I'm unaware of if this site has been brought here for discussion before, but I felt now was as good as time as any, if that isn't the case...and so I can know either way, considering that if it has been brought here for discussion before, I don't know about it. Flyer22 (talk) 04:22, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- From their Terms of Use: "SOC is a distributor (and not a publisher) of content supplied by third parties and Subscribers. Accordingly, SOC has no more editorial control over such content than does a public library, bookstore, or newsstand. Any opinions, advice, statements, services, offers, or other information or content expressed or made available by third parties, including information providers, Subscribers or any other user of soapcentral.com, are those of the respective author(s) or distributor(s) and not of SOC. Neither SOC nor any third-party provider of information guarantees the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any content, nor its merchantability or fitness for any particular purpose." Just for the curious.... Pairadox (talk) 04:45, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- All that said, again I point out that this site is extremely reliable and is a great asset to many soap opera articles on Wikipedia, such as reporting the firing of Richard Culliton and what went down with the controversy over character Frankie Stone, information that I cannot find anywhere else in a reliable source on the net but everyone knows about...as it's been stated in several soap opera magazine articles. I don't have access to any of those articles where he responded to the controversy about his character creation Frankie Stone's death...or specific articles on his firing in 2002, but soapcentral.com has information on that. Losing this site on Wikipedia would be a great disservice to many soap opera articles. I've worked with several excellent editors who know Wikipedia like the back of their hand and none felt that soapcentral.com was a source that I shouldn't use, such as when getting feedback on the Bianca Montgomery and Maggie Stone article (an article that I will be nominating for GA or FA status soon after a few more tweaks), and soapcentral.com is extremely important to that article when adding information on Richard Culliton's part in writing characters Frankie and Maggie Stone. This site is very important for sourcing soap opera-related articles, and as such I cannot see any good in discontinuing its use. Flyer22 (talk) 05:46, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- Are there any FA or GA soap opera articles that used soapcentral.com at the time of their elevation? That would indicate that a wider slice of the community has already weighed in on the reliability of it. Pairadox (talk) 06:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- Hey, Pairdox. And, unfortunately, no, because we don't have that many soap opera articles that have been elevated to GA or FA status. We have Pauline Fowler (FA), EastEnders (GA), and Coronation Street (previous Featured Article). And that's all...I think. But neither of those articles need soapcentral.com because soapcentral.com is an American site with no part of their site dedicated to those three British topics I just mentioned. I suspect that any soap opera article that I've worked on to improve, and then I were to nominate that article, with it using soapcentral.com, would be the first to have that source under scrutiny. But, really, there have been other great editors that have "scrutinized" the sources I've used in the articles I've been working hardest on, where soapcentral.com is used and none felt that it was unreliable. Bignole, for instance, who worked on me with the Bianca Montgomery and Maggie Stone article, checked that article up and down, and I feel that he would have mentioned soapcentral.com needing to be yanked if he felt that it was unreliable. He elevated the Jason Voorhees article to FA status, and I trust him. Maybe my best bet is to just take one of these articles I've worked hard on to the GA or FA nomination process and see what happens there, with these articles using soapcentral.com as a source. Flyer22 (talk) 06:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- Are there any FA or GA soap opera articles that used soapcentral.com at the time of their elevation? That would indicate that a wider slice of the community has already weighed in on the reliability of it. Pairadox (talk) 06:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- All that said, again I point out that this site is extremely reliable and is a great asset to many soap opera articles on Wikipedia, such as reporting the firing of Richard Culliton and what went down with the controversy over character Frankie Stone, information that I cannot find anywhere else in a reliable source on the net but everyone knows about...as it's been stated in several soap opera magazine articles. I don't have access to any of those articles where he responded to the controversy about his character creation Frankie Stone's death...or specific articles on his firing in 2002, but soapcentral.com has information on that. Losing this site on Wikipedia would be a great disservice to many soap opera articles. I've worked with several excellent editors who know Wikipedia like the back of their hand and none felt that soapcentral.com was a source that I shouldn't use, such as when getting feedback on the Bianca Montgomery and Maggie Stone article (an article that I will be nominating for GA or FA status soon after a few more tweaks), and soapcentral.com is extremely important to that article when adding information on Richard Culliton's part in writing characters Frankie and Maggie Stone. This site is very important for sourcing soap opera-related articles, and as such I cannot see any good in discontinuing its use. Flyer22 (talk) 05:46, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- I can point to a minimum of four errors without checking for soapcentral.com and it is updated by fans. I know this because I had to contact them regarding one of our trolls from here, a Mr. Grant Chuggle. They base a lot on opinion, their own, and not true storylines. My favorite glaring error is this one [3], last paragraph where Brandon left Harmony. For those unfamiliar with Days of our Lives, the show is set in Salem, not Harmony. Harmony is Passions. If they can't get something so simple correct, I don't feel they are a reliable source. Also, and this is a big pet peeve, they make up SORAS ages. People want to use soapcentral.com ages but they aren't based in fact, they are based on speculation. I am curious where they have no control over content came from, or maybe I'm reading that wrong. They do the editing and even advertise for fans to update the daily summaries. I find that to be a fansite and nothing more. They regurgitate rumours as fact and then respected agents have to run around like mad men explaining their clients' contracts because people think soapcentral.com is gospel. While they are an okay site, they aren't complete and they pick and choose too much. I would say, absolutely no on a reliability level unless we can pick and choose. They aren't reliable on ages, their spoilers are iffy and even some of their character histories are wrong. What are they right on? IrishLass (talk) 13:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- IrishLass, they are right on everything else. Their character bios, like you just pointed out, may be mostly fan-updated. But those editors are chosen carefully. I've also contacted them about such. Soapcentral is seen as the gospel by users because it is extremely accurate in its news reports and articles, like I linked to above. It isn't the most visited soap opera news site for nothing. It's control is no different than a library, as it says, "SOC has no more editorial control over such content than does a public library, bookstore, or newsstand." They are a distrubutor of content supplied by third parties and subscribers...who happen to be very reliable. No different than a library. And soapcentral really is indeed like a library for everything soap-related (American, I must admit). Most of their information is not speculated. They are often the first to report big happenings in the soap world, which turn out true every time. The only thing I've seen that may be a problem is their character bios, but even those are 99.9% correct. Our project, WikiProject Soap Operas, can include to exlude that, but this site should absolutely not be excluded from Wikipedia. Surely, you know how much losing this site on Wikipedia would harm soap opera articles. There aren't many soap opera sites out there that Wikipedia would consider reliable. Soapcentral is one of the more reliable ones out there, and losing it would truly be a sad hit to soap opera-related articles on Wikipedia. Flyer22 (talk) 19:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- I agree losing it would be bad, for some information. But what about the ages and changing of the dates of birth? How do we address that because they admit they guestimate those. The age issue is really my sticking point on using it. That and the character bios that are blatently wrong. IrishLass (talk) 19:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- We clearly need to come up with a guideline at our project, where we exlude character bios from that site. That's the only problem I've seen you have with that site. Like the characters' birth dates, for instance. Although, they happen to be right on the birth date concerning Erica Kane and others, and I'd hate to lose using that site as a means for sourcing birth dates that most viewers, not just soapcentral, have trouble keeping up with. But if we can't trust their character bios as often as we think, then we should exclude the use of that if it will allow us to keep using the very valuable aspects of that site, such as its news reports and news articles. Perhaps we should get Elonka to help us out on this. Flyer22 (talk) 19:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, I think we've reach an agreement point. My issue is not about the day of the birthdates, it is making up the years. They have Bo Brady born in 1963 and that's impossible. He's not 45 with a 30 year old son that was born when Bo was nearly 30. You know what I'm saying. If we can establish that years of birth via soapcentral cannot be used and character history should have a second source (another example is the phrasing of that EJ/Sami night that gives us such fits) when it's not plot point but opinion, I could be persuaded to agree. But, you are completely right, Elonka should be brought in to this and I do have a huge issue with the ages thing. BTW, the Erica thing cracks me up. I'm sure at 61 Susan Lucci thinks it's great someone thinks she's 46.IrishLass (talk) 19:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- We clearly need to come up with a guideline at our project, where we exlude character bios from that site. That's the only problem I've seen you have with that site. Like the characters' birth dates, for instance. Although, they happen to be right on the birth date concerning Erica Kane and others, and I'd hate to lose using that site as a means for sourcing birth dates that most viewers, not just soapcentral, have trouble keeping up with. But if we can't trust their character bios as often as we think, then we should exclude the use of that if it will allow us to keep using the very valuable aspects of that site, such as its news reports and news articles. Perhaps we should get Elonka to help us out on this. Flyer22 (talk) 19:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- I agree losing it would be bad, for some information. But what about the ages and changing of the dates of birth? How do we address that because they admit they guestimate those. The age issue is really my sticking point on using it. That and the character bios that are blatently wrong. IrishLass (talk) 19:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- IrishLass, they are right on everything else. Their character bios, like you just pointed out, may be mostly fan-updated. But those editors are chosen carefully. I've also contacted them about such. Soapcentral is seen as the gospel by users because it is extremely accurate in its news reports and articles, like I linked to above. It isn't the most visited soap opera news site for nothing. It's control is no different than a library, as it says, "SOC has no more editorial control over such content than does a public library, bookstore, or newsstand." They are a distrubutor of content supplied by third parties and subscribers...who happen to be very reliable. No different than a library. And soapcentral really is indeed like a library for everything soap-related (American, I must admit). Most of their information is not speculated. They are often the first to report big happenings in the soap world, which turn out true every time. The only thing I've seen that may be a problem is their character bios, but even those are 99.9% correct. Our project, WikiProject Soap Operas, can include to exlude that, but this site should absolutely not be excluded from Wikipedia. Surely, you know how much losing this site on Wikipedia would harm soap opera articles. There aren't many soap opera sites out there that Wikipedia would consider reliable. Soapcentral is one of the more reliable ones out there, and losing it would truly be a sad hit to soap opera-related articles on Wikipedia. Flyer22 (talk) 19:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Continued discussion
Yes, SoapCentral is not 100% accurate, but other sites we rely on — like IMDB.com — are equally prone to flaws. As a matter of fact, even Soap Opera Digest makes mistakes (I'm looking at one now) and — shock of all shocks — I've got screenshots of at least two errors One Life to Live made in its own onscreen credits recently. I think SoapCentral strives for accuracy, and usually its assertions are based on something, not just a wild guess. Any plot errors can easily be contradicted by recaps on the show's site or Soaps.com.
In the case of Erica Kane, the entry explains how she is suddenly 46 and this information is repeated in the article as a footnote. It is very specific about her age in relation to her daughter, and her daughter's changing age. This is not a flaw with SoapCentral, this is the show rewriting its history, and we can't take the ages of the actors into account. I don't see a birthdate in the SC.com entry for Bo Brady, but if Shawn-Douglas Brady was born onscreen in 1987 and you're saying he's 30, that does create an issue that can't necessarily be ignored. I agree we shouldn't be calculating years based on assumptions (like how old Bo might have been when he fathered S-D), but certainly presenting the conflicting info and letting the reader decide is OK.
Condemning Soap Central altogether for such trivial stuff is a big mistake. — TAnthonyTalk 02:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- I was just looking at SC and noticed a lot of the dates of birth for Days characters are gone. I don't know when that happened but I do know people have used SC in claims of date of birth but I don't see the dates for a lot of the characters I looked for. Even Jennifer Horton and Shawn-Douglas Brady didn't have a date of birth and both were born on screen. They do have dates for Hope Williams which are questionable but I find it really interesting that the dates now seem to be gone and I'm sure I looked up Shawn-Douglas within the last month. Maybe we could err on the side of caution and encourage people to find second sources for ages but for the rest I don't see why it can't be used. KellyAna (talk) 02:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- I find it hard to believe that their character bios are "blatantly wrong" as a whole. IrishLass' "Harmony vs. Salem" example is a harmless typo, and though it may suggest carelessness, it's not as if these bios are necessarily inventing plot points. Are there any examples of glaring misinformation? There is certainly some POV mixed in, but that shouldn't invalidate the site as a whole. If the site is used as a source for an arguable "fact," there is nothing wrong with challenging it on an item-by-item basis and even using other sources. Again, the birthdate thing is very trivial; I'm sure you can keep out any controversial birthdates, but I also see no problem with a footnote explaining the rationale behind the source's date: "SoapCentral.com suggests that Bo's birthday is in 1963 because though he was born onscreen in 1960, he was abducted by aliens in 1970, and Alice Horton noted in the May 16 1970 episode that his skin 'looked three years younger' when he returned." LOL. — TAnthonyTalk 05:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Because this discussion was copied from another location, instead of being linked, comments are continuing to be posted there as well. PLEASE don't fork discussions - it only adds to the general confusion. Pairadox (talk) 05:11, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry about that, Pairadox. I just felt that it would be better discussed here. And I didn't want to remove it from there in case someone on the outside of WikiProject Soap Operas wanted to comment.
- As I stated there, the news articles on that site are most definitely needed for Wikipedia soap opera articles. Those are reported by people such as Elizabeth Albanese and Dan J Kroll (the site's creator), etc., and are always reliable.
- Birth dates are something that most viewers have trouble keeping up with when it comes to soap opera characters, not just soapcentral. Soapcentral isn't used for the majority of Wikipedia soap opera articles in concerns to birth dates. It's usually some random IP address filling in the ages of soap opera characters on Wikipedia, without any sources. As for soapcentral, their articles don't usually include stuff about a character's birth date, unless it's character bios we're talking about. Soapcentral's articles are usually either news articles or critical commentary articles. Their character bios, which are written more so by fans (though well-selected fans), have more of a chance of being wrong. Although, from what I've seen of them, they are often right. I mean, it's not like any of the character bios are blatantly made up. I'm sure soapcentral would throw out any editor who was making up a character's history. The thing is, though, their character bios can be wrong about things such as a character's birth date. I had never seen a character bio there wrong about the town a character lives in, but IrishLass has pointed out above where that has happened. I look at it more as a typo, however. Either way, it seems that the best thing to do is to restrict or somewhat restrict using soapcentral when it comes to character bios, but to continue using it for news information.
- Another thing... IrishLass, are you sure that the matter over what seems like soapcentral's confusion over Bo's age doesn't have to do with him or his children having been SORASed? Like his children having been SORASed, which in turn de-SORASed him, no matter how much of a young age we are to believe he conceived a child. Flyer22 (talk) 06:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- Alright, I've been looking around. I know at one time there were birthdates on some character profiles. I know there were because I used to use them ages ago and up until recently. I did have a few emails going with one of the site owners and mentioned the age thing on EJ Wells imparticularly and that's gone. They also neutralized the wording of the controversial night. At this point my concerns are far less than they were 24 hours ago. I have some minor concerns but nothing to protest usage as a reference within reason.
- Flyer, regarding the Bo age thing. Who knows, but I think for de-SORASed characters we should call that the "Erica Kane" instead of "de-SORASed" We could start our own new term. =) IrishLass (talk) 18:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- I just wanted to say that agree with the use of soapcentral and the other sources. I mean, they are the only sources we have besides the soap and it's nice to have something to reference to. --Charleenmerced Talk 14:12, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- That comment totally ignores the "are the sources reliable" issue. Being the only source is not a substitute for being a reliable source. Pairadox (talk) 14:23, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- When I made the comment I had assumed that, due to the long discussion, there seemed to be a sort of consensus that the sources were reliable. Thus, I did not address that issue.--Charleenmerced Talk 21:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Article of lost episode is featured
Just wanted to mention that this article. Through the Looking Glass (Lost), was just made a featured article. I think we should take note of this article and others like it and raise our standard when writing, fixing, editing and referencing soap articles. We can make them better and more reliable and maybe even get them to be Good Articles! If an article about a TV episode can be a featured article so can one about a tv character. --Charleenmerced Talk 14:12, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for providing this link, we really do need to look at this and similar articles (Pauline Fowler) to improve the bulk of soap articles. Unfortunately, there won't be as many great sources out there for commentary for soap characters, but even Soap Opera Digest has a lot of valuable information (besides plot stuff) that can be used. I focus mainly on One Life to Live and lately I've been trying to save whatever articles and interviews I can that I think will be useful. And I think everyone should note how well even the plot summary of the Lost article is sourced. Every paragraph of plot summary, and often individual sentences and phrases, needs to be attributed; when adding new info, try to add a reference link to the official site's episode recap or SoapCentral. An article still needs real-world notability to escape deletion, but abundant sources will at least give an article (and the Project) some credibility. — TAnthonyTalk 17:02, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I also wanted to mention that a lot of actor's fan pages have copies, pdfs, etc of whenever their fave actor appears in any soap opera magazine. They are great sources for actor's interviews, plots or plot changes, and actor's impressions about their characters and the current storyline. So, look at the picture galleries of the web pages. Also, there have been a lot of (featured articles in the media section). Some notable examples:
- 200 (Stargate SG-1)
- Padmé Amidala - article about a fictional character
- Animaniacs - article about a television show
--Charleenmerced Talk 22:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- TAnthony, about plot summaries being sourced. You once pointed out that they don't need to be, that the show itself is the reference. And, I mean, if you look at film articles, none of the plot summaries for those are sourced, not even the featured ones. You have now changed your mind on sourcing plot summaries, correct? Or is it just television article plot summaries that you feel need references more so? I sourced the plot summary of an article I've been improving to get to Good Article or Featured Article status, but I don't generally source plot summaries. My sourcing goes more so to the character creation, cultural impact sections, etc., the sections that actually should be sourced. Flyer22 (talk) 21:24, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- I think we should source things that are big events, controversial things and things so old that people have different views or memories of it and keep changing it. I also tend to source plot summaries because I tend to edit a lot out and people can click on the reference to get the full story. Further, I tend to source "big reveals" (X is Y's real father, P killed D, etc). Generally, I kinda source everything. I am in law school and we are taught that everything must have a source, if it is not supported, it has no validity. I may go over the top sometimes though. --Charleenmerced Talk 21:30, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- Though I don't remember my exact arguments at the time, I was probably trying to keep something from being deleted/slashed simply due to lack of sources. In any case, after Pauline Fowler and other articles I see the importance more clearly. As much as sourcing can be a hassle and sometimes seem like overkill, with soaps in particular facts are not necessarily verifiable later because the episodes are basically unavailable, and as Charleenmerced notes above, people's memories do change. It seems like everybody knows about Luke and Noah's plot on ATWT but 10 years from now the details may be a little fuzzy. Films are more readily available, and their plot summaries more easily found online (though it still surprises me that a Featured Article wouldn't have sources for that). Certainly many plot summaries may not be challenged, but I've seen "facts" later proven incorrect by a source. Of course, you are right that sources are more essential for the other sections, it's just that most soap articles are all plot summary (and too much detail) and without any sources they're just asking for deletion. — TAnthonyTalk 23:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- I see. Definitely good points. Some old plots, such as Mona Kane Tyler's plot, however, may not be readily available online, and may have to be sourced from memory or having watched on YouTube and then stating "Stated on air" or something like that. But, yeah, you've made good points on this matter. Flyer22 (talk) 05:43, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
- Though I don't remember my exact arguments at the time, I was probably trying to keep something from being deleted/slashed simply due to lack of sources. In any case, after Pauline Fowler and other articles I see the importance more clearly. As much as sourcing can be a hassle and sometimes seem like overkill, with soaps in particular facts are not necessarily verifiable later because the episodes are basically unavailable, and as Charleenmerced notes above, people's memories do change. It seems like everybody knows about Luke and Noah's plot on ATWT but 10 years from now the details may be a little fuzzy. Films are more readily available, and their plot summaries more easily found online (though it still surprises me that a Featured Article wouldn't have sources for that). Certainly many plot summaries may not be challenged, but I've seen "facts" later proven incorrect by a source. Of course, you are right that sources are more essential for the other sections, it's just that most soap articles are all plot summary (and too much detail) and without any sources they're just asking for deletion. — TAnthonyTalk 23:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- I think we should source things that are big events, controversial things and things so old that people have different views or memories of it and keep changing it. I also tend to source plot summaries because I tend to edit a lot out and people can click on the reference to get the full story. Further, I tend to source "big reveals" (X is Y's real father, P killed D, etc). Generally, I kinda source everything. I am in law school and we are taught that everything must have a source, if it is not supported, it has no validity. I may go over the top sometimes though. --Charleenmerced Talk 21:30, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- TAnthony, about plot summaries being sourced. You once pointed out that they don't need to be, that the show itself is the reference. And, I mean, if you look at film articles, none of the plot summaries for those are sourced, not even the featured ones. You have now changed your mind on sourcing plot summaries, correct? Or is it just television article plot summaries that you feel need references more so? I sourced the plot summary of an article I've been improving to get to Good Article or Featured Article status, but I don't generally source plot summaries. My sourcing goes more so to the character creation, cultural impact sections, etc., the sections that actually should be sourced. Flyer22 (talk) 21:24, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Bennett Family
I'm deeply disturbed by the recent mass redirects to the "Bennett family" page. Especially the Standishes. Aside from Grace and her children with Sam, the Standishes have nothing to do with the Bennett family. Charity Standish, Faith Standish, Prudence Standish, etc. I plan on moving these back to their original state. -- Dougie WII (talk) 07:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- OK, I guess it wasn't mass.... it appears most of the articles are intact, but I did restore Prudence Standish. If you want to get rid of the page, please take it to AfD since I oppose any redirect, prod, etc. -- Dougie WII (talk) 07:17, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Flagged for major cleanup: Jason Morgan
All I wanted to do was add a disambiguation for an ice hockey player, but noticed the article was really really really long for a fictional character (108KB). I have thus flagged it for cleanup. Most of the information appears to be in-universe too, so I have added a tag for that as well. (→Zachary) 10:27, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- And I had also added this article to the soap's project collaboration page. I have been cutting out quite a bit. But, it is soooo long, it takes a lot fo time. Help? --Charleenmerced Talk 13:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- It is excessively long with parts described by the scene and entire paragraphs repeated again in other sections. It only has references in the first parts because tjat is as far as I got in referecing. It needs a lot of work. --Charleenmerced Talk 01:03, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
- Fine, but my opinion is it's not too long for a 25+ year character. It may need some clean up but it's at least far more comprehensive than other longer running characters. I offered my opinion, sorry if you don't like it. KellyAna (talk) 01:49, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hi, sorry if I seemed rude or anything. It's just that I have been trying to edit that article for a long time and I am tired. Also, the article is very very repetitive, often repeating the same storyline in different sections and I have been trying to cut that out. --Charleenmerced Talk 01:54, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
- That's cool and all but your comment after mine made it seem like I'm absolutely wrong for my *strictly* opinion. I think long running characters should have a decent amount of background, that's all I meant. I've got many a Days characters that have been on for 20 or more years with horrid pages missing so much. KellyAna (talk) 06:04, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with that. I hate that Lila Quartermaine has just about 3-4 lines even though she was in the show for decades. --Charleenmerced Talk 06:43, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
- That's cool and all but your comment after mine made it seem like I'm absolutely wrong for my *strictly* opinion. I think long running characters should have a decent amount of background, that's all I meant. I've got many a Days characters that have been on for 20 or more years with horrid pages missing so much. KellyAna (talk) 06:04, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hi, sorry if I seemed rude or anything. It's just that I have been trying to edit that article for a long time and I am tired. Also, the article is very very repetitive, often repeating the same storyline in different sections and I have been trying to cut that out. --Charleenmerced Talk 01:54, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
- Fine, but my opinion is it's not too long for a 25+ year character. It may need some clean up but it's at least far more comprehensive than other longer running characters. I offered my opinion, sorry if you don't like it. KellyAna (talk) 01:49, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Help in adding more depth to character articles. It does make an impact.
I wanted to come by here three days ago and state this, but I was kind of lazy at that moment. Anyway, three days ago...I noticed that a new editor started the article Erica Kane and Dimitri Marick (created on January 31 2008). What I was ecstatic about is that this new editor followed my exact setup for soap opera supercouple articles. It didn't have a Background section (filled with how the couple was created, etc.) and the plot summary wasn't written in present tense, but he or she made this article with more than just plot summary in mind. That is awesome. It obviously means a standard has been set for what supercouple articles should look like and this editor followed that. I'm thankful that this editor looked at one of the All My Children supercouples articles for an example, since a few of those are the only fictional supercouple articles I have fixed up so far.
My point is that...if we can fix up all of these character articles or a majority of them to include real world impact...such as concept, character creation, writing, cultural impact, etc., sections such as that, then that means that new editors will follow our lead. They've followed the wrong lead for long enough. They'll surely follow the right one. I'm asking all of you to try and fix up as many soap opera character articles to include the type of real-world context I've mentioned above. Examples would be Bianca Montgomery, Todd Manning, Frankie and Maggie Stone. Of course not all soap opera characters have had a lot of notable impact, but that doesn't mean that we cannot have real-word context for the majority of them... You know what I mean... Something other than plot summary. Anyway, that's what I'm asking of you guys. It would take forever for me to do all this on my own, I'm not as familiar with every soap opera, and I won't be here that often as time wears on. Talk with you all later. Flyer22 (talk) 22:04, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- Okay I know what you are saying. I should've thought more before I jumped the gun and created the Arlene Vaughan and Gloria Marsh articles as soon as I joined Wikipedia, 6 months ago or so. I see now that those two characters have only small "real world impact." I should've been more selective and now I try not to create any seemingly meaningless articles anymore.
- I have looked and looked all over the internet for articles pretaining to soap characters but have found little outside of the biggies like Erica Kane. How do you find an article about say Julia Santos, Olivia Spencer, and Harley Cooper, they just aren't out there. I have found small quotes and added them to articles like Tad Martin and by some storke of luck stumbled onto some about Opal Cortlandt that really worked. I have found some information on Annie Dutton but another user tagged at as unreliable and not "main stream." Because they were from soap sites, ahhhh.
- And one final question/observation, Flyer, do you not want a Background section? Is it the title that bothers you or what? I added one to the Opal Cortlandt article is that one okay?
- Glo145 (talk) 23:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, of course, I want Background sections. I've done that with "my" articles, as you can see above, and I was happy to see what you did there with the Opal Cortlandt article...because it meant/means that another editor was/is adding more depth to these articles and I wasn't/am not alone. That said, not all characters or couples may be able to have a Background section or a good Background section due to the actor/actors or writers not having given an interview on the creation (concept, portrayal, etc.) of their character or couple, or because that particular information is not available online. Ryan Lavery, an article I just added more depth to, doesn't have much on how his character was created in his Background section, but that didn't stop me from adding more depth to his article in other ways.
- As for finding impact for certain characters, Google Book Search is a good option. There are several books out there about Erica Kane, and ones that include her or Tad Martin, but I just haven't gotten around to truly improving their articles yet. As you can see, I cited a few books in the lead of Tad's article already as references. A lot of the old characters, or I should say legendary characters, have been written about in books. If all else fails, turn to Google...Google Book Search, that is. In fact, go there before all else fails. Flyer22 (talk) 11:44, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- Also, a lot of fan sites post scans of magazines of interviews for the fave actors. I have found articles for General Hosptital actors and characters. For example: Laura Wright articles, press on Rebecca Herbst , Megan Ward'sinterviews. All these contain articles from Soaps in depth and other magazines. Also, soapcentral.com and soaps.com have a lot of articles that may be useful for the characters you are looking info for. I basically just search for the name of the actor or the character and, with a lot of patience, search through each site. I hope this helps! If you ever need any help Glo, I love impossible tasks and can help you out look for info. --Charleenmerced Talk 13:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- Okay try and find notable information on Annie Dutton and Julia Santos. Currently I'm looknig for info about Reva Shayne, there has to be stuff out there on her!! I just have to finda it. Glo145 (talk) 21:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Family trees and copyright vios
I just realized while still contemplating the whole "soap central" issue that the family trees on at least all of the Days of our Lives pages are direct copies from Soap Central. Doesn't that mean they should be removed. I've removed them from the Days pages but don't feel I can address other shows. Anyone have thoughts? Beyond that, these trees are really redundant to the information above and to the character articles. I'm seeing lots of redundancy on the soap pages, as a matter of fact. IrishLass (talk) 17:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- Personally I've never found a need for family trees because most of that information is already in most character articles, located in the infobox, not to mention their character histories contain most of that info as well.
- A lot of the Guiding Light articles were directly copied from SoapCentral, but most of them have been cut down like I did to the Dinah Marler article. Before I fixed it, it was nothing more than a rambling, incredibly long article directly copied from Soap Central. Glo145 (talk) 22:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
The family trees are probably redundant in most cases, except for a "family page" that doesn't already have an infobox. If you find one necessary, I don't see why you can't reconstruct it and reference SoapCentral where necessary (most of the info would be available elsewhere). Of course, an external link to the appropriate SoapCentral tree would also work, I'm actually thinking of doing that for some of the articles I monitor. — TAnthonyTalk 03:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Unless it's a scanned or copied web image, I don't think just a recreation of a family tree would be a copyvio. Lists are generally not copyrightable. -- Dougie WII (talk) 03:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hey Dougie, yes they are especially when they use the same legend as SC does. These lists use the exact formatting, and they are redundant, to SC. Seriously, we shouldn't be using them, only referring people to SC if anything. KellyAna (talk) 03:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Can you link to one of these and the page it's supposedly a copyvio of? I'm not quite sure what you all are talking about. Thanks. -- Dougie WII (talk) 03:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Actually the point is it's not just pictures that are violations of policy, it's any written text including family trees. Just go to www.soapcentral.com and click on their family tree links, they so match up. KellyAna (talk) 04:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- To me, it seems these are just non-copyrightable lists. The characters themselves and their names are copyright of the company that owns the rights to the show, but it is certainly fair use for both Soap Central and Wikipedia to use them in commentary about the show. It would be impossible to accurately list a family tree that is correct but doesn't agree with the show or what others have written about the show. It's just like a tree of related animal species. -- Dougie WII (talk)
- Dougie, I don't think you're understanding, at least not what I've removed from the Days' pages. The lists were exact copies including the legend and identifiers. That's proprietary property. SoapCentral.com makes up those identifiers and people just copy the lists, which aren't always accurate. They've done the work, their site is copyrighted, doing a copy and paste from their site to here violates that. Just because something is "just a list," (something frowned upon by Wiki - see WP:LISTCRUFT) doesn't give us the right to copy and paste someone else's work. And, just a side note, many genealogists would have a problem with someone calling a family tree "just a list." IrishLass (talk) 13:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- To me, it seems these are just non-copyrightable lists. The characters themselves and their names are copyright of the company that owns the rights to the show, but it is certainly fair use for both Soap Central and Wikipedia to use them in commentary about the show. It would be impossible to accurately list a family tree that is correct but doesn't agree with the show or what others have written about the show. It's just like a tree of related animal species. -- Dougie WII (talk)
- Actually the point is it's not just pictures that are violations of policy, it's any written text including family trees. Just go to www.soapcentral.com and click on their family tree links, they so match up. KellyAna (talk) 04:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Can you link to one of these and the page it's supposedly a copyvio of? I'm not quite sure what you all are talking about. Thanks. -- Dougie WII (talk) 03:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hey Dougie, yes they are especially when they use the same legend as SC does. These lists use the exact formatting, and they are redundant, to SC. Seriously, we shouldn't be using them, only referring people to SC if anything. KellyAna (talk) 03:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Notice of temporary injunction
I am letting you all know that there is currently a temporary injunction that applies to all editors[4] while this arbitration case is open. The injunction was enacted on February 3, 2008 and it reads:
"For the duration of this case, no editor shall redirect or delete any currently existing article regarding a television series episode or character; nor un-redirect or un-delete any currently redirected or deleted article on such a topic, nor apply or remove a tag related to notability to such an article. Administrators are authorized to revert such changes on sight, and to block any editors that persist in making them after being warned of this injunction."
The arbitration committee would like all editors to hold off on such actions while the case is open. I will also notify you when the injunction ends. Thank you. --Pixelface (talk) 04:06, 11 February 2008 (UTC)