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As to ‘those suspicious of him’ I was primarily referring to the editors on the article, not necessarily the sources they are using. [[User:SAS81|SAS81]] ([[User talk:SAS81|talk]]) 15:18, 7 June 2014 (UTC) |
As to ‘those suspicious of him’ I was primarily referring to the editors on the article, not necessarily the sources they are using. [[User:SAS81|SAS81]] ([[User talk:SAS81|talk]]) 15:18, 7 June 2014 (UTC) |
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[[User:Dkriegls|<font color="#153E7E"><big>'''D'''</big><small>kriegls</small></font>]] I truly thank you for this discussion, and apologize for the walls of text - I'm hoping that by formatting my responses below the way I did, I created an easier way for follow up questions by others as well. Feel free to correct me if this drives you nuts! |
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* '''As MrBill explained above, are you suggesting that only Deepak Chopra's perspective of himself should be represented by his BLP?''' |
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NO! That’s exactly not what I am saying, it’s not the subject’s ‘perspective on themselves’ that needs to be in the article (that would be bizarre) it’s the subjects actual ideas and work that must be in the article. [[User:SAS81|SAS81]] ([[User talk:SAS81|talk]]) 15:28, 7 June 2014 (UTC) |
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* '''Though I am using the Chopra article as an example, I am asking for the broad philosophical view of what it means to you to be "without bias" in a world with no external verification as the traditional scientific method describes it.''' |
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Here is another point of confusion I run into quite frequently - the traditional scientific method has absolutely nothing to do with someone’s biography. Maybe I misunderstand you, but are you saying that scientists opinions about people are facts of science? I would expect scrutiny if the article was about integrative medicine, or the effects of meditation on the endocrine system, but it’s very perplexing when I read that scientists opinions about people are equal to scientific evidence about physics and chemistry. [[User:SAS81|SAS81]] ([[User talk:SAS81|talk]]) 15:28, 7 June 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''What Chopra explains as a world "created" by consciousness and not one simply experience by consciousness, thus allowing for an external world that can be tested and verified.''' |
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I’m going to have very serious problems with any position that wants to assume a formal stance on the nature of consciousness and then use that to defer Chopra into a category. Dr. Chopra is very prolific on the topic of consciousness and spirituality - this to me falls under the purview of philosophy (at this time but my position can evolve). Therefore, although I disagree somewhat with your statement that Chopra’s viewpoints on consciousness can be tested by 3rd party data - I’m not sure if it’s productive if you or I have a conversation about the nature of consciousness. So I view his views on consciousness as philosophy. Another thing that may surprise you is the level of support Dr Chopra has for his ideas in this regard. He has lots of very very interesting, academic scientists contributing to his work. I’m on many of these email chains and sometimes I have to pinch myself because I can’t believe I’m actually on an email chain with some of the scientists at that level. While his viewpoints on consciousness may be a minority view in science of philosophy itself - its a significant minority and in terms of the entire world, Dr Chopra’s arguments are representative of an entire emerging paradigm and thought system that is very mainstream - so it’s important that we report on that accurately. And to be fair, that aint easy! Even if I was doing it all by myself - Dr Chopra is a very very complex person, very prolific, and very challenging to ‘nail down’ so some of this is his own fault in that sense. [[User:SAS81|SAS81]] ([[User talk:SAS81|talk]]) 15:28, 7 June 2014 (UTC) |
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* '''I don't have a new question to sum up my thoughts this time because I am still wondering what you mean when you say you are working to represent the material "without bias".''' |
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It means stating the facts where the facts can be verified to exist and describe them using neutral language that does not reflect my personal point of view nor a broader point of view of the subject unless it’s directly stated as such. It means presenting information from a more agnostic position. It means reaching for completeness and objectivity where possible. It means assuming I have failed in doing so and then repeat the steps a few times more until I get it right. [[User:SAS81|SAS81]] ([[User talk:SAS81|talk]]) 15:28, 7 June 2014 (UTC) |
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Bullshit
There is a disagreement at Penn and Teller: Bullshit! over whether to use quotation marks around the word "bullshit" alone. Since this article falls under this Wikiproject umbrella, you may want to weigh in on that Talk Page. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:18, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
I took the liberty of adding this article to your wikiproject's scope. Many thanks, Lesion (talk) 00:06, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
Pseudoscience category proposed for deletion
Has everyone noticed that Category:Pseudoscience was proposed for deletion?! Greg Bard (talk) 15:36, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Invitation to User Study
Would you be interested in participating in a user study? We are a team at University of Washington studying methods for finding collaborators within a Wikipedia community. We are looking for volunteers to evaluate a new visualization tool. All you need to do is to prepare for your laptop/desktop, web camera, and speaker for video communication with Google Hangout. We will provide you with a Amazon gift card in appreciation of your time and participation. For more information about this study, please visit our wiki page (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Finding_a_Collaborator). If you would like to participate in our user study, please send me a message at Wkmaster (talk) 06:31, 26 March 2014 (UTC).
Category:Alternative medicine
Here we go again. This time User:Obiwankenobi, is removing Category:Alternative medicine from Category:Pseudoscience, claiming to have a consensus, and that not all alt med is pseudoscience, so it shouldn't be classified as such. See discussion at Category talk:Alternative medicine. Greg Bard (talk) 21:58, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- Greg, I had asked you to not violate WP:CANVASS, but here you post a blatantly one-sided notification of the discussion. In addition, you include a serious misrepresentation of what has happened - if you look at the edit history, it is YOU who has repeatedly tried to insert this category, only to have it removed. It was gone for several months, then added a month ago or so, until I removed it, and you edit-warred it back in. Anyway, everyone else please join the discussion which is sure to be a good one given it's inauspicious start here...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:01, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- You are completely out of line here. The category is within the scope of this project, and my characterization was not only accurate, but objectively so. You don't seem to understand what the canvass policy is at all. Quite frankly, I find the canvass policy offensive to a basic sense of decency for any person in an open society, but even in accepting it, you are still over reaching to claim it. Greg Bard (talk) 20:15, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- Greg, your notification was not neutral. First, you start with "Here we go again" - as if a wink to those "in the know" that some troublemaker is up to no-good once again. Secondly, your description of it being me "removing" the category in inaccurate - for much of the lifetime of Alternative medicine, that category has not been present, and in spite of your continual edit warring to restore it it has been removed.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:38, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- It is an objective fact that we have been through this issue many times before. My claim is that you are the problem editor, and you claim that I am the problem editor. Only one of us is right. I only hope that the Wikipedia consensus decision making process doesn't fail, as it occasionally does. Could some reasonable editors intervene please?Greg Bard (talk) 21:06, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- The objective facts of adds/removals of that category can be seen in the edit history. It's pretty objective. You've added in 5 times, and have been reverted 5 times. Other interested editor should join the discussion at the category talk page, instead of here in any case.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:17, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- It is an objective fact that we have been through this issue many times before. My claim is that you are the problem editor, and you claim that I am the problem editor. Only one of us is right. I only hope that the Wikipedia consensus decision making process doesn't fail, as it occasionally does. Could some reasonable editors intervene please?Greg Bard (talk) 21:06, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- Greg, your notification was not neutral. First, you start with "Here we go again" - as if a wink to those "in the know" that some troublemaker is up to no-good once again. Secondly, your description of it being me "removing" the category in inaccurate - for much of the lifetime of Alternative medicine, that category has not been present, and in spite of your continual edit warring to restore it it has been removed.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:38, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- You are completely out of line here. The category is within the scope of this project, and my characterization was not only accurate, but objectively so. You don't seem to understand what the canvass policy is at all. Quite frankly, I find the canvass policy offensive to a basic sense of decency for any person in an open society, but even in accepting it, you are still over reaching to claim it. Greg Bard (talk) 20:15, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- Greg, I had asked you to not violate WP:CANVASS, but here you post a blatantly one-sided notification of the discussion. In addition, you include a serious misrepresentation of what has happened - if you look at the edit history, it is YOU who has repeatedly tried to insert this category, only to have it removed. It was gone for several months, then added a month ago or so, until I removed it, and you edit-warred it back in. Anyway, everyone else please join the discussion which is sure to be a good one given it's inauspicious start here...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:01, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
Folks, are we actually letting this stand?! Greg Bard (talk) 20:17, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Jimbo on adequate evidence
There is a lot of blog coverage of a change.org petition calling on Wikipedia to adjust its editorial policies to allow in more article text about "holistic approaches to healing." Jimbo Wales responded, "Wikipedia's policies around this kind of thing are exactly spot-on and correct. If you can get your work published in respectable scientific journals - that is to say, if you can produce evidence through replicable scientific experiments, then Wikipedia will cover it appropriately." See Respectful Insolence, Skeptical Software Tools, and other blogs for more details. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 03:44, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yup, expect this to be covered in the next Signpost. -Ugog Nizdast (talk) 17:17, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
This:
This user resists the POV pushing of lunatic charlatans. |
Now, if anyone would like to email me, I have a friend who is a well-known proponent of free content who has been invited to comment on the specific case at issue. Guy (Help!) 22:37, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
- Guy, I hope you don't mind that I just put that user template on a page I keep in user space describing my editorial approach here. Alas, I tend to know mostly about topics that attract a lot of POV-pushers to the project. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 00:01, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
- Yup, nice work with that essay...very well written. Sincerely, Ugog Nizdast (talk) 17:04, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
Just out of curiosity, which journals are considered acceptable to Wikipedia? It looks like the American Psychological Association Journals, the Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease, the Journal of Alternative Medicine and Journal of Bodywork and Movement Therapies are not. So how can one tell which published Journals Wikipedia will acknowledge and which they will not? Sbwinter2 (talk) 17:32, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
- Where are you looking for signs of what Wikipedia deems to be reliable sources? -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 19:44, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
- My question is based on the rejection of sources on the Rolfing page and reading about others sources that were rejected on other pages. Sbwinter2 (talk) 17:37, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
- Do you have a link to such "rejections". Are you sure it was the journal being rejected and not the claim made about the journal? Dkriegls (talk to me!) 04:03, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
- There is a very useful Wikipedia content guideline on reliable sources on medicine that all editors would do well to consult before revising article text dealing with medical claims. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 18:45, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks. I am actually not even referring to an article making medical claims because it is not considered medicine. It is alternative medicine, which according to wikipedia's own definition, does not even need scientific validation in terms of what it intends to do or how it is defined. Problem is that the "editors" do not like the Journals that publish articles on research or explanations. I am actually getting some response on that page again now, so I will continue this discussion there. I was just curious as it seemed that there were just some published journals which the skeptics project didn't even consider valid. Thanks. Sbwinter2 (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- Medicine, alt med, spirituality or whatever the underlying issue is biomedical information. If the intentions or definitions involve biomedical information, the best sourced currently available mainstream medical science must be presented prominently.
- Thanks. I am actually not even referring to an article making medical claims because it is not considered medicine. It is alternative medicine, which according to wikipedia's own definition, does not even need scientific validation in terms of what it intends to do or how it is defined. Problem is that the "editors" do not like the Journals that publish articles on research or explanations. I am actually getting some response on that page again now, so I will continue this discussion there. I was just curious as it seemed that there were just some published journals which the skeptics project didn't even consider valid. Thanks. Sbwinter2 (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- My question is based on the rejection of sources on the Rolfing page and reading about others sources that were rejected on other pages. Sbwinter2 (talk) 17:37, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Sources are evaluated based on their ability to support the facts in proposed content. Analysis of the quality of a source starts with the publication's reputation for accuracy, fact checking and bias but goes on to look at how the information is supported in the source. When considering biomedical information an evaluation looks at the quality of the source from a variety of aspects. This post to a talk page provides one example of evaluation of a source. - - MrBill3 (talk) 03:03, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
Skepchickal
- File:Wikimania 2012 portrait 102 by ragesoss, 2012-07-13.JPG
- Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Skepchickal
I've nominated this photograph by Ragesoss, for Featured Picture consideration.
Discussion is at Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Skepchickal.
— Cirt (talk) 19:58, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Huffpo article by Deepak Chopra
Apparently, WE are the ones who have turned Wikipedia into an "ideological 'battleground'" Greg Bard (talk) 20:21, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
- Be ever vigilant...Dkriegls (talk to me!) 06:31, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
In related news, the article Deepak Chopra is currently undergoing some changes, while User:SAS81 ("I am an employee of Dr. Deepak Chopra and represent his direct interests on Wikipedia") is contributing to Talk:Deepak Chopra. Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 15:10, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
- Nice to meet all of you. Specifically, I am an employee of ISHAR, Integrative Studies Historical Archive and Repository. It's newly formed and Dr. Chopra, through the Chopra Foundation, gave us a grant but he will not be our only funding source. Our responsibility is representing all knowledge on our archive, including subjects such as Dr Chopra - without bias to media and online encyclopedias such as Wikipedia. Not a PR company. Not a marketing company. Not a promotional company. We are a non profit educational organization. We are required to work directly within Wikipedia's policy. SAS81 (talk) 18:56, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
- I'm curious, how do you propose that you can represent this materiel without bias when Deepak himself argues that objective reality is nothing more than shared subjective experiences shaped by personal experience (i.e., reality is biased). Honestly, I'm not being factitious, this is an honest question. --Dkriegls (talk to me!) 21:10, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
- A shell game does not a reliable source make. Nor boilerplate eliminate motivation. However if the material in the "archive" represents reliable sources ISHAR can be a welcome resource for providing access to referencing sources found reliable. A linear string of electrons leading to a repository of representations of physical atoms presenting a notion of notions of disassociated association. - - MrBill3 (talk) 02:51, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
- Nice to meet all of you. Specifically, I am an employee of ISHAR, Integrative Studies Historical Archive and Repository. It's newly formed and Dr. Chopra, through the Chopra Foundation, gave us a grant but he will not be our only funding source. Our responsibility is representing all knowledge on our archive, including subjects such as Dr Chopra - without bias to media and online encyclopedias such as Wikipedia. Not a PR company. Not a marketing company. Not a promotional company. We are a non profit educational organization. We are required to work directly within Wikipedia's policy. SAS81 (talk) 18:56, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
I'm thrilled we can have this sort of discussion, thank you. Dkriegls I was not sure when you said 'answer here' if 'here' was my talk page where you posted or 'here' where the original question was posted. So I am going to repost my answer....in both 'heres' :)
This is an absolutely fair question and I really appreciate you approaching me like this. I'm so thrilled with this question I've supplied a wall of text, sheesh! I also don't mind coming over to your noticeboard. As to what it means to be 'without bias' - I'm not sure that is possible for anyone to be without bias. However I do believe that where circumstances require, we can at least attempt to view issues without our personal bias and report on them the best we can and this is very possible and something journalists or researchers have to do quite often. It's just a matter of framing things so our own personal bias is removed from our language (and the encyclopedia's). For example, what you wrote above is actually does a pretty good job. You may not agree with Dr Chopra's assessment of consciousness - and you may agree with for example Dan Dennet's framework for consciousness so if you're writing an encyclopedia or building an archive, you would just report that x said this, y said that and you would attribute their voices, not the voice of the encyclopedia to their statements. Without bias therefore means INCLUDING all facts and attributing all points of view directly to their sources without being represented as a source for those views or facts. We also have to be careful not to mislead a reader by interpreting the work of an author through the lens of our own bias. This can be challenging. Imagine if you had to frame the point of view of say someone you don't like (if your a dem and you had to frame the viewpoint of the tea party for example). So this is where skeptic editors face a challenge too! I'm a little wonky nerdy type, so I actually enjoy this sort of work and challenge.
Also, I would not assume that I have the same bias that say Dr. Chopra would have regarding his views. Before I got this gig, I was not a 'follower' of Deepak Chopra and actually never read much of his work. I also did not have much an opinion on it either. Now that I dive into this work, I've actually been a little shocked to discover many things that I assumed were true about Dr Chopra were my own misperceptions (for example, I assumed he was an alternative medicine practitioner, he isn't) and I also was not aware of the high level of acceptance Dr Chopra has on the world stage. So unless someone is an extremist of some kind, I think most rational people can be aware of their own viewpoints and be aware of how those viewpoints are being represented and can take responsibility to represent those viewpoints without using biased language.
let's keep this discussion going, yes? I'm not the enemy, and believe it or not, I am fascinated by this 'problem' and I think we can work together to find a productive solution. I think this will speak well for the skeptic community and Wikipedia. Problem I have is that since skeptic groups or organizations have so committed themselves in a certain direction - if they reach out and work with an opposing viewpoint they get pressure from their own peers which prevents a solution from occurring since they have locked themselves into a debate and any resolution will cause them to lose respect or position. Very human problem that has nothing to do with the ideology behind it, it's just human nature getting in the way. SAS81 (talk) 16:04, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- "Without bias therefore means INCLUDING all facts and attributing all points of view directly to their sources without being represented as a source for those views or facts." Here at Wikipedia, we're extremely cautious about labeling information as "facts" especially when that information comes from people with fringe beliefs and products and services based upon those fringe beliefs.
- Likewise, we don't care about all points of view, only prominent ones.
- Wikipedia is not a venue for promotion, especially when there's a conflict of interest. --Ronz (talk) 18:58, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- To expand on Ronz's reply, do you truly think it's possible or even reasonable to include all points of view? For instance, should every article on the Holocaust include a section on how holocausts deniers interpret the information, and another section for how various Muslim groups interpret the information? Wouldn't that be giving these views some undeserved appearance of acceptance by mainstream historians? Additionally, do you really want us to include every negative thing written about Deepak Chopra by quackwatch? Or even by mainstream newspapers like The Guardian who published this critique by one of his contemporaries Susan Blackmore? If we do accept that not all possible views should be included, then we agree to some form of editorializing. Rules for which have been fiercely debated and laid down by our editorial forefathers (so to speak).
- However, if you truly do think all these views should be included, I ask, have you taken it upon yourself to add such negative critiques of Chopra's page? If not, isn't that a measure of biased editorializing on your part? Which I would suggest again brings us back to the inherent bias needing agreed upon rules for editorializing with COI issues. The third option of course is that Ronz and I misunderstood your definition of being "without bias". For which I am happy to entertain the correction. Dkriegls (talk to me!) 21:47, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- @Ronz - my answer was to the question what does 'without bias' mean and my answer was broad, it was not meant to reflect what Wikipedia should do or be like, it was meant to represent how ISHAR represents knowledge or facts without bias. Of course Wikipedia has policies and guidelines, and ISHAR is committed to those policies and guidelines. I was rather hoping you could find some appreciation to how we approach things and see similarities where we can find consensus. SAS81 (talk) 00:23, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
@Dkriegls I'm not sure if you're asking me a broad, almost philosophical question about presentation of knowledge in general without bias or if your question is to Wikipedia specifically - my answer was meant to reflect the former. Bias, and without bias, are expressed in language and text and context primarily. I can hold a biased view of say, Justin Beiber, who personally makes me gag, but I Can still frame a neutral sentence about him that says 'Justin Beiber is very popular'. I dont need to write 'Justin Beiber is popular with people who have no taste in music' as that reveals my bias. I also dont need to associate the meaning of him being very popular with other things that would discredit him in the eyes of those who I think would know better, such as readers of Rolling Stone, such as 'Teen Beat magazine claims he is the most popular singer ever'. Also, great to know there is no spell check for Beiber, so I'm winging the spelling here.
If both of you are wondering my thoughts on how this should play out on Wikipedia, maybe this can help. And please keep in mind that my point of view is always evolving. In matters of a BLP, I believe that readers should be able to discover who someone is, what their ideas are, and what reception they have had. So to your analogy re: holocaust survivor museum, no of course not but the same with someone's BLP. If I go to a holocaust survivor museum, I want to learn about what it was like for THEM, and I want to know about their experiences. I don't want to learn about the holocaust from the point of view of the aggressors. Likewise, if I go to a Deepak Chopra article, I want to learn about HIM and HIS ideas, not what his ideas look like through the eyes of those who are suspicious of him. If suspicions of him are prominent (and they admittedly are) I would expect to find those too. I would NOT expect the article to confuse the both of them. And that's what I am here to help with. I think we can have both. I want the article to address your concerns too, I'm not trying to fluff it up or remove criticisms. We can discuss this more if you like.
SAS81 (talk) 00:23, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
Also, the question "will we have critics of Dr Chopra on ISHAR" My position is yes we will, however our focus is different. We will be showing the discussion around the critics and where the discussion is at. SAS81 (talk) 00:37, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
- I think we have hit upon a key concept in WP. On WP we report on HIM and HIS ideas as reported on by reliable secondary sources. They don't have to be "those who are suspicious". The secondary sources we choose and the prominence we give the content based on their published reporting is according to the due weight they have in representing the mainstream academic community. This is the encyclopedic nature and policy of WP. If one wants to find out all about HIM and HIS ideas one can go to HIS website and read HIS books etc. I hope this is abundantly clear. This is fully documented and explained in the core policy WP:NPOV. - - MrBill3 (talk) 04:50, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
- SAS81, I'm not sure I follow, as I now understand you to be suggesting the opposite of what I first thought. As MrBill explained above, are you suggesting that only Deepak Chopra's perspective of himself should be represented by his BLP? I honestly don't think that's what you meant, but that is how I am currently reading your last comment. Though I am using the Chopra article as an example, I am asking for the broad philosophical view of what it means to you to be "without bias" in a world with no external verification as the traditional scientific method describes it. What Chopra explains as a world "created" by consciousness and not one simply experience by consciousness, thus allowing for an external world that can be tested and verified. Your example: "I Can still frame a neutral sentence about him that says 'Justin Beiber is very popular'"; fits Wikipedia's NPOV, but I don't think it fit's your claim of "without bias" as it is biased towards a Neutral Point of View. Pinning down this point of distinction seems important to understand because you claim to be working to represent Chopra's materiel "without bias" while other Wikipedia editors who appear to at be odds with you are claiming they are working towards a NPOV. I don't have a new question to sum up my thoughts this time because I am still wondering what you mean when you say you are working to represent the materiel "without bias". Dkriegls (talk to me!) 05:06, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, it's important to grasp that we are not so much writing an article about Chopra, as merely digesting what serious sources have to say about him. If no serious source takes Chopra seriously (pretty much the case), Wikipedia will reflect that. This, in WP terms, is neutral. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 07:30, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
- SAS81, I'm not sure I follow, as I now understand you to be suggesting the opposite of what I first thought. As MrBill explained above, are you suggesting that only Deepak Chopra's perspective of himself should be represented by his BLP? I honestly don't think that's what you meant, but that is how I am currently reading your last comment. Though I am using the Chopra article as an example, I am asking for the broad philosophical view of what it means to you to be "without bias" in a world with no external verification as the traditional scientific method describes it. What Chopra explains as a world "created" by consciousness and not one simply experience by consciousness, thus allowing for an external world that can be tested and verified. Your example: "I Can still frame a neutral sentence about him that says 'Justin Beiber is very popular'"; fits Wikipedia's NPOV, but I don't think it fit's your claim of "without bias" as it is biased towards a Neutral Point of View. Pinning down this point of distinction seems important to understand because you claim to be working to represent Chopra's materiel "without bias" while other Wikipedia editors who appear to at be odds with you are claiming they are working towards a NPOV. I don't have a new question to sum up my thoughts this time because I am still wondering what you mean when you say you are working to represent the materiel "without bias". Dkriegls (talk to me!) 05:06, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
Some thoughts:
- We are certainly writing about Chopra and his ideas, reception, criticism We digest sources to do that. Removing the idea that this is not about Chopra but about sources removes the humanity from our decision making and opens the door for abuse.
- Academic sources are generally good, verifiable sources. They are not the only good sources.
- Chopra is a world renowned figure for his work in multiple areas. Our articles had better reflect that in addition to the criticism launched against him. Any other approach such as making sure no one takes Chopra seriously is NPOV.(Littleolive oil (talk) 14:44, 7 June 2014 (UTC))
MrBill3 - sure, we use secondary sources to report on him, but we also are guided to use primary sources, with care - to verify secondary sources - and that just make sense to do in some, but not all situations. There seems to be allot of variance in interpretation amongst editors here. For example, in the case of Dr Chopra’s article, Capn, SlimVirgin, Atama, Olive Oil and I all agreed on how to use primary sources with secondary sources. Ronz and a few others had a different idea.
I STRONGLY disagree that the encyclopedia isn’t a place to learn about someone’s ideas and life but a place to learn about how others view the subject - that statement seems very counterintuitive and a little extreme and would be an entirely subjective process, devoid of much value. Wikipedia wants to be a respected encyclopedia. Of course the article should not be like the subject’s website, that would be ridiculous. But if the subject says on his website or book, “My views are x”, and a secondary sources says “his views are Y” then it’s mind boggling to assume that we must misrepresent the views of a biography, even knowingly, because the secondary source trumps all. That’s an algorithm for a unreliable encyclopedia. I see the encyclopedia as a place to learn about people, places and things and we compile the articles through secondary sources as a methodology for determining notability, reliability and verifiability only.
As to ‘those suspicious of him’ I was primarily referring to the editors on the article, not necessarily the sources they are using. SAS81 (talk) 15:18, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
Dkriegls I truly thank you for this discussion, and apologize for the walls of text - I'm hoping that by formatting my responses below the way I did, I created an easier way for follow up questions by others as well. Feel free to correct me if this drives you nuts!
- As MrBill explained above, are you suggesting that only Deepak Chopra's perspective of himself should be represented by his BLP?
NO! That’s exactly not what I am saying, it’s not the subject’s ‘perspective on themselves’ that needs to be in the article (that would be bizarre) it’s the subjects actual ideas and work that must be in the article. SAS81 (talk) 15:28, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
- Though I am using the Chopra article as an example, I am asking for the broad philosophical view of what it means to you to be "without bias" in a world with no external verification as the traditional scientific method describes it.
Here is another point of confusion I run into quite frequently - the traditional scientific method has absolutely nothing to do with someone’s biography. Maybe I misunderstand you, but are you saying that scientists opinions about people are facts of science? I would expect scrutiny if the article was about integrative medicine, or the effects of meditation on the endocrine system, but it’s very perplexing when I read that scientists opinions about people are equal to scientific evidence about physics and chemistry. SAS81 (talk) 15:28, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
- What Chopra explains as a world "created" by consciousness and not one simply experience by consciousness, thus allowing for an external world that can be tested and verified.
I’m going to have very serious problems with any position that wants to assume a formal stance on the nature of consciousness and then use that to defer Chopra into a category. Dr. Chopra is very prolific on the topic of consciousness and spirituality - this to me falls under the purview of philosophy (at this time but my position can evolve). Therefore, although I disagree somewhat with your statement that Chopra’s viewpoints on consciousness can be tested by 3rd party data - I’m not sure if it’s productive if you or I have a conversation about the nature of consciousness. So I view his views on consciousness as philosophy. Another thing that may surprise you is the level of support Dr Chopra has for his ideas in this regard. He has lots of very very interesting, academic scientists contributing to his work. I’m on many of these email chains and sometimes I have to pinch myself because I can’t believe I’m actually on an email chain with some of the scientists at that level. While his viewpoints on consciousness may be a minority view in science of philosophy itself - its a significant minority and in terms of the entire world, Dr Chopra’s arguments are representative of an entire emerging paradigm and thought system that is very mainstream - so it’s important that we report on that accurately. And to be fair, that aint easy! Even if I was doing it all by myself - Dr Chopra is a very very complex person, very prolific, and very challenging to ‘nail down’ so some of this is his own fault in that sense. SAS81 (talk) 15:28, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
- I don't have a new question to sum up my thoughts this time because I am still wondering what you mean when you say you are working to represent the material "without bias".
It means stating the facts where the facts can be verified to exist and describe them using neutral language that does not reflect my personal point of view nor a broader point of view of the subject unless it’s directly stated as such. It means presenting information from a more agnostic position. It means reaching for completeness and objectivity where possible. It means assuming I have failed in doing so and then repeat the steps a few times more until I get it right. SAS81 (talk) 15:28, 7 June 2014 (UTC)