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Hi. I have a general request that I hope you will help me with. When you are editing and especially creating new articles, could you please make a redirect from the Latin term to the article? Since most European countries with the exception of the UK use Latin terms it would help a lot of people to find information with these redirect (the Latin term is often included in the article so it would not take more than additional 30 seconds). This would also make it easier for many people to add to the anatomy project. Thank you --[[User:JakobSteenberg|JakobSteenberg]] ([[User talk:JakobSteenberg|talk]]) 00:28, 10 November 2012 (UTC) |
Hi. I have a general request that I hope you will help me with. When you are editing and especially creating new articles, could you please make a redirect from the Latin term to the article? Since most European countries with the exception of the UK use Latin terms it would help a lot of people to find information with these redirect (the Latin term is often included in the article so it would not take more than additional 30 seconds). This would also make it easier for many people to add to the anatomy project. Thank you --[[User:JakobSteenberg|JakobSteenberg]] ([[User talk:JakobSteenberg|talk]]) 00:28, 10 November 2012 (UTC) |
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== [[Fecal incontinence]] article == |
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This article needs some major attention from this project. A related article was recently merged into it and now there is a lot that needs sorting out, as is mentioned on the article's talk page. [[Special:Contributions/108.60.139.170|108.60.139.170]] ([[User talk:108.60.139.170|talk]]) 01:20, 10 November 2012 (UTC) |
Revision as of 01:20, 10 November 2012
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Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/WikiProject used
Can we still use books as refs?
This follows from statements above by user:UseTheCommandLine, Doc James, User:Axl, user:LeadSongDog,
It appears so many of them are simply plagiarism of Wikipedia. We are coming to a point in time where someone comes to Wikipedia and makes something up. It than gets into a textbook. And along I come to try to reference our text by looking for sources and low and behold the worlds books support us just a little to well. Another example:
- Our article on pneumonia (prevention section) from Dec 2006 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pneumonia&oldid=97517043#Prevention
There are several ways to prevent infectious pneumonia. Appropriately treating underlying illnesses (such as AIDS) can decrease a person's risk of pneumonia. Smoking cessation is important not only because it helps to limit lung damage, but also because cigarette smoke interferes with many of the body's natural defenses against pneumonia. Research shows that there are several ways to prevent pneumonia in newborn infants. Testing pregnant women for Group B Streptococcus and Chlamydia trachomatis, and then giving antibiotic treatment if needed, reduces pneumonia in infants. Suctioning the mouth and throat of infants with meconium-stainedamniotic fluid decreases the rate of aspiration pneumonia.
- Check out this textbook from 2007/2008 page 678 Diseases and disorders. Tarrytown, NY: Marshall Cavendish. 2008. p. 678. ISBN 9780761477709. They have copied word for word large sections without giving credit and they are selling the book for $340 on amazon.com [1] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 04:14, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- Ouch. Not good. Just out of curiosity (having no medical qualifications beyond a vague ability to identify - unreliably - bones of some guy who's been dead for 100,000 years...), are medical textbooks usually that badly written? Wouldn't the 'throw random sentences together to make a paragraph' prose rather give the game away? AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:41, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- This simply re enforces what an amazing resource Wikipedia is. With a minor copy edit and some work on layout one can sell it for big money. My hats off to all the great editors here. I think it is time that we inform libraries that some of the time they are simply buying old copy edited versions of Wikipedia and that the current version is better and free.
- By the way the suctioning for meconium to decrease aspiration is not recommended. I have fixed our article and emailed the publisher to inform them of my concerns. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 05:01, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- The parent company of the publisher is worth $14 billion. It appears this title however may have been bought by Amazon. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 05:15, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- Somehow I doubt the attributed author on that book knew about the plagiarism. She's the chair of medicine at Washington University, St. Louis, with over 200 publications listed on Pubmed. She probably would not have called herself "M.d." on the cover and many times in the book. Definitely something odd going on. LeadSongDog come howl! 06:30, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- The parent company of the publisher is worth $14 billion. It appears this title however may have been bought by Amazon. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 05:15, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- Andy, sure it isn't our best writing that's been plagiarized, but that's why the book only sells for $340. The book that plagiarizes from our GA articles is over $700 and from our FAs is over $1000.
Zad68
13:58, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- Looking at this Worldcat search it seems the books are geared at "young adult readers", as for high school health classes. Certainly the 186 listed librarys were mostly public libraries, public schools, etc. Not the sort of mix one would see for a "medical textbook", which is usually mostly held by university libraries. Oddly, the e-book results lean more to universities and colleges than the paper. LeadSongDog come howl! 17:00, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Medical textbooks of this size are typically written by a collaboration of many authors. Subsections are often "outsourced" to junior/middle-grade doctors. There is usually a small fee for the junior doctor, but the main benefit is addition to the CV. A single lead editor (or small group of senior editors) oversees the whole project.
Of course it is impossible for one person to scrutinize every part of a book of this size. The main editor relies on the integrity of the junior authors. Authors are typically required to affirm that the material is their own work. While the vast majority of authors are conscientious, it is inevitable that there are a few who will "cheat".
In the case of this textbook, the author of each chapter is given at the end of the chapter. Here, the offending author is Julie A. McDougal. Axl ¤ [Talk] 10:16, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- I found this pdf document online. One of the authors is "Julie A McDougal", e-mail address julie.mcdougal@ccc.uab.edu . If you intend to contact her, it would be best to ask if she is the author of the chapter first before making any accusation or declaration about the chapter's content. Axl ¤ [Talk] 10:39, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- Sigh. Yes so she responded and it is the same person. Currently it looks like she is studying smoking cessation in Birmingham Alabama. I guess the question is did she write this content originally on Wikipedia (better check more thoroughly)?
- While I think it is bad that people take from Wikipedia and claim it as their own while large multinationals make large sums of money of us without giving us any recognition. I do not want to harm anyone career. Ah I have lost my nerve. What do you recommend next Axl? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:57, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- I've asked Moonriddengirl to visit this discussion. She's got a knack for tracking these things down. LeadSongDog come howl! 20:57, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- "This simply re enforces what an amazing resource Wikipedia is." To me what it reinforces is how influential Wikipedia is, and therefore how important it is that we get it right. Adrian J. Hunter(talk•contribs) 11:10, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
A related story worth reading: Book That Plagiarized From Wikipedia Is Pulled From Market. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:02, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- With good software to check what one is publishing for plagiarism their is simply no excuse for it. We need to get some up and running ourselves. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:04, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- Well we have a bot that checks new articles here against google, but perhaps we need the reverse too. LeadSongDog come howl! 20:57, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- The "smoking cessation" bit was added in this edit on 19 Oct 2005. Back then it was just the GFDL in play. There are indications on the related userpage of edits to Washington University School of Medicine, Pneumonia, and others that suggest that wp editor might be proximate to Dr McDougal. LeadSongDog come howl! 21:58, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- With good software to check what one is publishing for plagiarism their is simply no excuse for it. We need to get some up and running ourselves. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:04, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think that we (Wikipedia and Wikimedia Foundation) can afford to ignore this issue. The whole point of Wikipedia is that the content is free and subject to cc-by-sa Creative Commons license. If we ignore the matter, everyone else certainly will. Publishers and authors should realise that it is not acceptable to plagiarize from Wikipedia.
- I suggest that you contact the book's publisher and main editor (with a copy to Julie A McDougal) and explain the situation, including a statement that cc-by-sa 3.0 applies to the chapter. The quantity of plagiarism is less than in "Understanding and Management of Special Child in Pediatric Dentistry". The most likely response is that the publisher will ask a different author to write a new chapter for the next edition.
- Ms (Dr?) McDougal will not lose her job. However she will not be asked to write for textbooks in the near future.
- If you would like me to support you when you contact the publisher, I would happy to do so. Indeed I would be happy to be the "main author" (LOL) if you want. Axl ¤ [Talk] 21:36, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
" I guess the question is did she write this content originally on Wikipedia (better check more thoroughly)? "
- If she did originally write the text on Wikipedia, then it would not be plagiarism. However the cc-by-sa license would still apply to the textbook's chapter. Axl ¤ [Talk] 21:45, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- One can release the same content under different licenses to different people as far as I am aware. I will ask here if she is this editor. A number of other sections are very similar as well. I am not sure if this user wrote those as well. Might be good to check other chapters too. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:00, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- If she did originally write the text on Wikipedia, then it would not be plagiarism. However the cc-by-sa license would still apply to the textbook's chapter. Axl ¤ [Talk] 21:45, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with this. Has anyone from WP or WMF done outreach to publishers, specifically to their legal departments, about things like the requirements of our citations, and the use of history pages? I'm not as familiar with the software backend as I'd like to be, but are there tools that allow, say, publishers' legal departments to search the historical revisions of wikipedia to look for plagiarism? (Is that how this example was found, by using such a tool?)
- Sorry for the noob-ish questions. UseTheCommandLine (talk) 02:14, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Software dose exist. I do not know how good it is but universities often use it. We at Wikipedia do not as I think it may be expensive.
- This case was found by me looking up a sentence in our article on pneumonia (which was wrong by the way) and finding it word for word in Google books. Than noticing that the sentences that came before and after that one where also exactly the same.
- That one should not copy and paste from others and claim it as their own is hopefully something that we do not need to explain to the publishing industry. Especially since most of them that have been around for any length of time have sued other people over this exact issue. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 03:26, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Turns out we have an article Plagiarism detection that talks about some of the available software, some of which runs as services on the net. LeadSongDog come howl! 04:12, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry for the noob-ish questions. UseTheCommandLine (talk) 02:14, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I'm sure publishers are already aware of these things. However, they might benefit from a helpful explanation of citation style and requirements of the particular CC license we use, as a way of letting them know that we're trying to police this more aggressively, if indeed we want to do that. And I'm also not suggesting that WP buy commercial software for this purpose. when I look up a phrase on google or some other search engine, and a wikipedia link is returned, it is typically the most recent edit. By the time an author submits a paper to a publisher and the publisher gets around to editing it or vetting it, legal, whatever, it is quite possible that the phrasing or something on WP has changed, and it no longer is a match. So, having tools that can allow search within old edits of wikipedia seems like something that would (in addition to being of scholarly interest or otherwise useful for its own sake) be of use to WP insofar as it could force publishers to do more self-policing. Again, I don't know whether this exists on the toolserver already -- I imagine that that would be a pretty substantial drain on infrastructure. But it would lower at least a little bit the barrier to discovery of this in the pre-publication phase. Which means that publishers would have even less wiggle room to claim that they had done their due diligence, it was an honest mistake, etc. if it winds up going to court or something. Again, just spitballing, feel free to ignore me. UseTheCommandLine (talk) 05:25, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Comment 1: If the author wrote the original Wikipedia text, as Doc James says, they can also publish that text elsewhere under a different licence as it is theirs to do with as they like. However, one it starts being built on by other editors, one can't take this improved text and publish it elsewhere other than by following one of Wikipedia's licences.
- Comment 2: Please read WP:OUTING and remove the speculation on editor identity. This is a very serious issue: "attempted outing is grounds for an immediate block". Colin°Talk 13:47, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Okay well it turns out the author in question is not the editor in question and thus this would not be outing. But agree we have an issue. If I am going to expose this author to real life difficulty because she has copied and pasted from Wikipedia I better made sure that my accusations are true. If Wikipedia outing policy prevents me from doing due diligence we at Wikipedia have a problem with this policy. It would be unethical for me NOT to break the outing policy in this situation IMO. You thought? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 16:13, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Please read WP:OUTING again. It doesn't matter if the attempted outing was correct or not, indeed we must absolutely not confirm whether it was as then we're just as bad. This sort of investigation simply can't be done on Wikipedia -- it must be done behind closed doors in private. I don't know if this means a special group of admins, the arbs or WMF but it has no place on the talk page of this Encyclopaedia. I suggest you find someone familiar with the policy as there may be some text/revisions that need deleted. Colin°Talk 20:56, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Okay well it turns out the author in question is not the editor in question and thus this would not be outing. But agree we have an issue. If I am going to expose this author to real life difficulty because she has copied and pasted from Wikipedia I better made sure that my accusations are true. If Wikipedia outing policy prevents me from doing due diligence we at Wikipedia have a problem with this policy. It would be unethical for me NOT to break the outing policy in this situation IMO. You thought? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 16:13, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- I do sort of see your position Colin. There however is not other group within Wikipedia's whose opinion I respect as much as that of those here. If you would all be so kind as to join Wikimedia Medicine than we could discuss these issues on a private list. Doc James (talk ·contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:28, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- If I walked too close to the line above, and I may have, feel free to delete as necessary. It does, however, appear that the plagiarism was from the WP article in toto, not from one editor's contribs. No one contributor could own the copyright, accordingly no one could license the text under any terms other than the GFDL. LeadSongDog come howl! 07:31, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- I do sort of see your position Colin. There however is not other group within Wikipedia's whose opinion I respect as much as that of those here. If you would all be so kind as to join Wikimedia Medicine than we could discuss these issues on a private list. Doc James (talk ·contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:28, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
There's possibly a misunderstanding that plagiarising text from Wikipedia will somehow make a book chapter or even the whole book GFDL or CC BY-SA. Have a read of The GPL is a License, Not a Contract, Which is Why the Sky Isn't Falling which refers to GPL but similar issues apply to our licenses. If the terms of the licence (such as attribution) aren't met then it falls back on copyright. The owner(s) of the work can sue for damages/legal-costs and request an injunction to prevent further publication. Who are the owners of the Wikipedia article text? Not the WMF. All the folk who wrote it. Don't know about you, but I don't have the funds for a lawyer, nor do I suspect my contributions would earn me much in damages. Instead we should pursue the ethical rather than legal issues here. Any professional publisher should be upset about this. Colin°Talk 11:15, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, I posted a review on Amazon. Axl ¤ [Talk] 11:25, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- You guys be careful. There's plenty text on Wikipedia that was plagiarised. And should you be wrong, the balance of power (being able to afford lawyers and claim substantial damages) is not in your favour. Colin°Talk 13:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for sharing the link and comment above, Colin. The majority of legal disputes in the world do not involve lawyers, but rather they are settled when the parties talk to each other and discuss the issue without legal advice. It hurts nothing for a Wikipedian to begin a conversation without consulting a lawyer and if the publisher wants to make statements through a lawyer then that is their business. I see no harm in merely having a Wikipedian ask a publisher if they copied content from Wikipedia. No matter what the publisher says or does not say or even whether the publisher replies or not is extremely interesting, especially when the question-asking is done publicly. I think no one need accuse anyone of anything. I propose sending a note to someone saying, "Hey, that looks like Wikipedia, where did you get it?" and seeing what they say. No lawyers are need for that. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:17, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- You guys be careful. There's plenty text on Wikipedia that was plagiarised. And should you be wrong, the balance of power (being able to afford lawyers and claim substantial damages) is not in your favour. Colin°Talk 13:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
Off-Wikipedia outreach activism process
I am interested in two related situations.
- Some entity misuses Wikimedia content and they ought to know better. The above case is one example, here is the Springer issue reported in the signpost, here is the case Doc James reported, and there are others.
- Some entity ought to know more about Wikipedia and Wikimedia content anyway for their own good.
In both of these cases there needs to be some kind of institutional outreach. Ideally, someone (or multiple people?) would write letters and emails to the organization and encourage them to properly engage Wikipedia. In response, hopefully the organization would make a commitment to recognize best practices for interacting with Wikipedia and how Wikipedia can help them.
Historically there has been worry that all organizational interaction would be a Wikipedia:Conflict of interest which was most likely to mean that the organization would exploit a relatively defenseless Wikipedia community of volunteers. More and more lately I am seeing the Wikipedia community as an international superpower directing the world's most popular media source and wondering what would happen if the community started making very public demands to be recognized as a legitimate peer to any other media outlet and requesting in open letters that organizations which misuse Wikimedia content make good by having their staff serve a fair part in the Wikipedia mission to advance access to the same resources that are already using, critically need, but inappropriately and in ignorance republish with much less respect than they would had this content been published elsewhere. If such a complaint process were developed to ask organizations to have their staff learn Wikipedia so as not to misuse it, the same process could be used to ask other organizations to learn Wikipedia to use it properly.
I really wish that all organizations which seek to advance education, perhaps particularly non-profit educational organizations, would start to consider their public positions and relationship to Wikipedia. I think it would be in their interest to declare publicly that they will have a staff person become minimally competent in understanding how Wikipedia works and how to properly use content from the site. Thoughts from anyone? How would anyone feel about drafting both one-page letters of complaint and letters of outreach with me? If such letters existed, would anyone be interested in sending them publicly and publicly posting the responses they got for them? Is that a sensible, respectful thing to do? If not this, then what should we do? Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:54, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- I think that WP:MED occupies a particularly sticky space when it comes to these issues. I am interested in pursuing the idea and helping out, but also feel caution is warranted, and ideally a protocol for this sort of contact would be written up, publicized here and wherever else appropriate. Also, this may be germane -- though it is kind of sprawling in scope and discussion, it seems like it might be at odds with the sort of actions you're proposing. (I just saw a post to this effect on the wikiEN list.)
- UseTheCommandLine (talk) 18:23, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Lane I would be willing to support this effort. With respect to Sue's statement about narrowing the scope of the WMF, I think her position is that she wants the community to take on much of these other roles. Which is what we are doing here. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:26, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Sure so I guess this is one of the activities that WMMED could take on. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 21:30, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- I drafted an initial proposal of how this could work at meta:Wikimedia Medicine/letters. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:06, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- Sure so I guess this is one of the activities that WMMED could take on. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 21:30, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Lane I would be willing to support this effort. With respect to Sue's statement about narrowing the scope of the WMF, I think her position is that she wants the community to take on much of these other roles. Which is what we are doing here. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:26, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- While I understand and sympathise with the frustration over seeing other publishers copyvios, I am far more concerned with the potential for circular referencing. We should be able to handle these instances in such a way as to preclude using violating "sources" that we know to (or even strongly suspect) constitute {{reverse copyvio}}s. The last thing we need is to start using these as the cited basis for dubious content. Imagine the rats' nest this could create: spammer inserts that "Pickled unicorn horn, while scarce, is an effective cure for recurring-remitting projectile leprosy" into our article Alternative medicine, and a book copies that version before the spam is caught. We then would have that book to cite as a "reliable" notability basis for articles on both Pickled unicorn horn and Recurring-remitting projectile leprosy. To my thinking this is something we do not need a legal basis to prevent.LeadSongDog come howl! 19:07, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- For that goal, all you really need is the {{backwardscopy}} template. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:48, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- That template is appropriate when we are certain that WP was the source, but not when we just think so without firm evidence. Worse, it does not do much to help find multiple instances by the same author or publisher. LeadSongDog come howl! 19:27, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- For that goal, all you really need is the {{backwardscopy}} template. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:48, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
Introduction to academic publishing
Can anyone recommend a good book or other resource that describes and explains the academic publishing market today? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 01:58, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- from what perspective? UseTheCommandLine (talk) 07:39, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Maybe User:DGG could assist you? —MistyMorn (talk) 14:12, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- How many peers typically review an article submitted to a prestigious peer-reviewed journal; do they get paid and if so how much; are reviewers still usually anonymous; do all or only some journals charge the author to submit an article and if so is that determined by their quality? I guess those are my immediate questions; if anyone knows, you might save me some reading. But I'd also like to get an overview of the academic journal and textbook industry today. I'll post this at WP:RSN in a few days if no one's got this at the front of their mind. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 16:13, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- sounds like you should talk to an academic librarian. from what i understand, only having been on the submitting end of things a handful of times, reviewers by and large dont get paid (though editors may), reviewers are usually anonymous (never heard anything to the contrary), and most journals charge the author to submit an article ("editing fees"), though again, my experience might be atypical. unaware of any basic overviews like this, but if you find one it would be great if you could share the link(s). UseTheCommandLine (talk) 16:22, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Well, some of your specific questions are easily answered. Policies vary, but typically a peer-review journal will send a submission to 2, 3 or sometimes even 4 unpaid reviewers who (in theory at least) have little to gain beyond prestige. In most journals reviewers are still anonymous, though BMC, for instance, have adopted signed reviews an open access reviewing processes allowing anyone to access the entire pre-publication peer-review documentation [2]. Others, such as PloS and BMJ group journals have more hybrid systems.[3][4] —MistyMorn (talk) 16:40, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- We do have articles on peer review, on the International Committee of Medical Journal Editors and on their Uniform Requirements for Manuscripts Submitted to Biomedical Journals, plus wp:WikiProject Academic Journals, all of which would seem good resources. The Vancouver system article is in need of some care and feeding. LeadSongDog come howl! 17:09, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- In recent years, the peer review process has been a hot topic in journals like the BMJ [5] and Nature. International conferences have been held since the 1990s [6], with the proceedings published either in journals like JAMA or as (expensive) books. A couple of books with (inexpensive) google previews here: [7][8]. —MistyMorn (talk) 17:37, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- We do have articles on peer review, on the International Committee of Medical Journal Editors and on their Uniform Requirements for Manuscripts Submitted to Biomedical Journals, plus wp:WikiProject Academic Journals, all of which would seem good resources. The Vancouver system article is in need of some care and feeding. LeadSongDog come howl! 17:09, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Well, some of your specific questions are easily answered. Policies vary, but typically a peer-review journal will send a submission to 2, 3 or sometimes even 4 unpaid reviewers who (in theory at least) have little to gain beyond prestige. In most journals reviewers are still anonymous, though BMC, for instance, have adopted signed reviews an open access reviewing processes allowing anyone to access the entire pre-publication peer-review documentation [2]. Others, such as PloS and BMJ group journals have more hybrid systems.[3][4] —MistyMorn (talk) 16:40, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- sounds like you should talk to an academic librarian. from what i understand, only having been on the submitting end of things a handful of times, reviewers by and large dont get paid (though editors may), reviewers are usually anonymous (never heard anything to the contrary), and most journals charge the author to submit an article ("editing fees"), though again, my experience might be atypical. unaware of any basic overviews like this, but if you find one it would be great if you could share the link(s). UseTheCommandLine (talk) 16:22, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- How many peers typically review an article submitted to a prestigious peer-reviewed journal; do they get paid and if so how much; are reviewers still usually anonymous; do all or only some journals charge the author to submit an article and if so is that determined by their quality? I guess those are my immediate questions; if anyone knows, you might save me some reading. But I'd also like to get an overview of the academic journal and textbook industry today. I'll post this at WP:RSN in a few days if no one's got this at the front of their mind. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 16:13, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Thanks everybody. That's given me plenty to be getting on with. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:31, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
- For the submission to Open Medicine we received 3 reviews. They where anonymous but have agreed for us to release their comments under a CC BY SA license. Thus will be releasing them soon. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 06:34, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
- Can you let me/us know when that happens? Meanwhile, I've found A Guide to Academic Publishing: An Overview, Scholarly Paper, Peer Review, Etc by S. Dawkins. Should do the trick. Only $17.75 at Amazon. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:22, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
- At Talk:Dengue_fever#Formal_peer_review_by_Open_Medicine. Biosthmors (talk) 17:58, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- Can you let me/us know when that happens? Meanwhile, I've found A Guide to Academic Publishing: An Overview, Scholarly Paper, Peer Review, Etc by S. Dawkins. Should do the trick. Only $17.75 at Amazon. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:22, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
- For the submission to Open Medicine we received 3 reviews. They where anonymous but have agreed for us to release their comments under a CC BY SA license. Thus will be releasing them soon. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 06:34, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
- Some resources on peer review
- Peer review: a guide for researchers
- Resources for editors and peer reviewers at EQUATOR Network
- Contributions by Sense About Science
- Nature's peer review debate (2006) and peer-to-peer blog (closed)
- BMJ peer review training materials, including How to survive peer review
—MistyMorn (talk) 18:06, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
That ALCAT business again...
User:Plot Spoiler refuses to answer a straight gf query as to the existence of any COI with Cell Science Systems, the marketers of the ALCAT test, simply providing an edit summary that reads Ridiculous accusations that don't deserve a response [9]. Given this user's history (a previous username failed to meet Wikipedia's username policy because it was "that of a product or company" [10]) and editing habits I feel that the question is anything but ridiculous. Any suggestions on where to take it from here? —MistyMorn (talk) 13:56, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
- When pressed, the user has now stated: There is no COI [11]. —MistyMorn (talk) 15:17, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
- Are you confident pressing that issue is appropriate and part of Wikipedia:COI#How_to_handle_conflicts_of_interest (even if it were a COI, but in this case it is only suspcious)? Biosthmors (talk) 19:45, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, I probably didn't word my last post very well. No I wasn't confident, which was why I posted here. I found the refusal to answer my plainly worded civil question in the standard template I posted [12], per Wikipedia:COI#How_to_handle_conflicts_of_interest, both arrogant and suspicious. But the user has now stated There is no COI [13]. And I feel it's right to leave it at that now, with the answer on record. Hope that's clearer, —MistyMorn (talk) 20:16, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
- Are you confident pressing that issue is appropriate and part of Wikipedia:COI#How_to_handle_conflicts_of_interest (even if it were a COI, but in this case it is only suspcious)? Biosthmors (talk) 19:45, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Thanks guys for the gentle reminders that the article's Talk page isn't actualkly the appropriate place to address COI concerns... As suggested at the head of WP:COIN, I've now posted a Help request. —MistyMorn (talk) 22:29, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
Auto generate ref name from first author last name + year of publication?
^ Is there any way of doing this? 23_2{(SBST:SU:m.}} (talk) 16:06, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- Not as far as I am aware. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 17:45, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- Well there is for Harvard referencing, using {{harv}} or {{harvnb}}, e.g. the wikicode
{{harvnb|Tepi|2012}}
generatesTepi 2012 - These can be modified by the use of the
|pages=
parameter, or augmented by the use of the {{rp}} template. Adding para[14] to the {{citation}}, {{cite journal}}, etc in wp:LDR form should link it, as for{{cite web |last=Tepi |year=2012 |title=Auto generate ref name from first author last name + year of publication? |work=Wikipedia |date=2012 Oct 29 |ref=harv }}
- Well there is for Harvard referencing, using {{harv}} or {{harvnb}}, e.g. the wikicode
I'm not aware of a specific wp:MEDMOS equivalent, though it may exist. LeadSongDog come howl! 19:49, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
Same ref being added by a number of editors to a number of pages
This ref [15] is being added by User:Socialpsychra and User: Keyblade5 to a lot of pages. It is not pubmed indexed. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 16:33, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- Is Pubmed really the most relevant indexer for psychology journals, or are we getting into scope creep? Perspectives on Psychological Science is pretty high-impact (4.890 per JCR 2011), and it is held in the NLM, and even if it is not indexed on Pubmed it is indexed on several other services. Cheers, LeadSongDog come howl! 19:19, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- Good point. I content maybe reasonable. Talk:Major_depressive_disorder#Addition_of_text_with_ref_which_is_none_pub_med_indexed Is this WP:DUE? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:38, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- They'd still need to determine whether it is an independent, secondary source, and whether the edit uses the source appropriately (not cherry-picking, e.g.) I don't personally have the necessary full-text access to make such an assessment. I simply state that I would not reject it solely on the basis of the choice of journal, or that of the absence of Pubmed indexing. LeadSongDog come howl! 19:57, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- Good point. I content maybe reasonable. Talk:Major_depressive_disorder#Addition_of_text_with_ref_which_is_none_pub_med_indexed Is this WP:DUE? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:38, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
Myoclonic epilepsy
FYI, see the talk page of Myoclonic epilepsy where I said this student could ask questions at WT:MED or my talk page. There seems to have been a little confusion. Colin°Talk 15:37, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
Hi Colin- I am a student and part of the myoclonic epilepsy article you took a look at. I'm very confused by the plagarism issue. If the sources are cited then how it is plagarism? Some of parts of the article was 100% copied from a book but I thought that didn't matter as long as it was cited where we got the information from. Please let guide me in the right direction here. thank you R.EEGbrittry (talk) 17:56, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Have a look at WP:PLAGIARISM. In summary, verbatim copying of text counts as plagiarism even if the reference is given. This is because unquoted text implies that this is original text based on the reference. Related issues are close paraphrasing and copyright violation. Axl ¤ [Talk] 18:15, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- FRom WP:PLAGIARISM: "Stronger attribution is required when content is copied or closely paraphrased from sources. This helps to maintain the clear distinction between work submitted by Wikipedia editors as their own work (which can be "edited mercilessly"), and work marked as a quotation (which must be properly credited and left essentially untouched)." Such "copy & quote" text should be reserved for situations when a direct quote from the original speaker enhances the reader's understanding beyond that of new text based on the source. Axl ¤ [Talk] 18:23, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
Hi Colin-- Will you take a look at my talk page and tell me what you think of the updated version for the myoclonic epilepsy article? I would like your feedback to make sure I referenced everything correctly. thanks! R.EEGbrittry (talk) 20:45, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Wait—I'm not Colin. I suspect that you should be asking these questions on Colin's talk page. Axl ¤ [Talk] 21:25, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Hi, there seems to be a little confusion over WT:MED vs my talk page. Anyway, yes we need to write Wikipedia articles in our own words and we can generally only lift other people's words directly when they are in quotes. And we don't build articles from lots of quotes. Any significant amount of copying is a copyright problem, which is rather serious hence the knife taken to the changes. I will try to get time to look at this but am not sure I will have time tonight or tomorrow night. I could only review your work against the source text via a Google Books search as I don't have that book (though I have a couple of others too) If someone else here on WP:MED can help that would be appreciated. The issues are covered on the article talk page. In addition to rephrasing source text, some help with wiki formatting/referencing might be useful. Colin°Talk 15:37, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
Trouble at talk:caffeine
The article is running into difficulties with an editor who is convinced that Islam forbids caffeine and defends that view at quite incredible length, but can cite no specific evidence whatsoever to back it up. The only way I have found to deal with situations like this is force of numbers. I know it's annoying to deal with walls of hysterical text, but any help would be appreciated. Looie496 (talk) 02:16, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- omg... p = 0.05 (talk) 02:21, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- I have brought two different sources--an encyclopedia and a textbook, both by Ph.D.s in Islamic studies--and provided a suggested edit based on them. If that doesn't meet the editor's satisfaction, the problem there isn't one of content but rather behavior, and will have to be settled at the WP:Dramaboard or the like.
Zad68
16:05, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- I have brought two different sources--an encyclopedia and a textbook, both by Ph.D.s in Islamic studies--and provided a suggested edit based on them. If that doesn't meet the editor's satisfaction, the problem there isn't one of content but rather behavior, and will have to be settled at the WP:Dramaboard or the like.
Sugar high
Could someone have a look at Sugar high? It was changed from an article to a redir to List of common misconceptions some weeks ago, and now the article has been restored. I find it a bit fishy but don't know enough to decide whether this condition actually exists. Thanks, ἀνυπόδητος (talk) 08:52, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- I don't know if it needs to be a separate article or not, but either way the article needs some serious work. I've removed some unnecessary content, some of it redundant and copied from sucrose, but it still needs some attention from someone familiar with the subject. Personally I think it should be redirected to sucrose, since most of the article seems to be copied from that article, with maybe a brief sentence explaining "sugar high" and whether it's a thing or not. I don't think this needs its own article; if you took away all of the unsourced content, there's hardly anything there. - SudoGhost 09:33, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Commented at article talk. There's real science and ongoing debate about a complex and important area, with overlapping dietary substances, reward system modification, metabolic modification, addiction, economics, and mass marketing all involved. As they say, "It's complicated". LeadSongDog come howl! 14:14, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
Need input to help build journal evaluation tool
Hello WP:MED members, I'd like your input on a project. I'm considering building a journal evaluation tool. The idea would be that you'd give it a PMID or a DOI or a name of a journal, and it would give you some basic information to help you evaluate where the journal or journal article would rank on the WP:MEDASSESS scale. Some of the outputs would be: Is the journal MEDLINE indexed? What is the journal's impact factor? Is the journal associated with a major medical organization? How much other publishing have the authors of an article done? The idea is to improve our articles by helping editors evaluate sources, and to help resolve "my journal article which says X is better than your journal article which says Y" disputes. The end product could be added to WP:CITETOOL and could live on the Toolserver alongside things like this. Any interest in providing this sort of input? Thanks... Zad68
13:23, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- That's a neat idea, but I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, having a tool that did some of the basic spadework when checking up on a new source could be handy. On the other hand, I fear that such a tools' output (depending somewhat on how it was presented) might also be susceptible to abuse—article X got all the green checkmarks in the assessment tool, so we have to use it-type problems. In other words, there may be a temptation to substitute the tool's numbers for an actual understanding of the scientific literature and the place of a given work within it; feel free to read that as me being an elitist snob.
- I guess the other question is, do we actually have much trouble evaluating a journal's overall quality or identifying whether or not a paper's authors have a significant research history? In my experience – others may differ, please comment! – our experienced editors generally have no difficulty quickly determining when a paper is an uncited, decade-old, primary study, in a crappy journal by authors who only publish fringe nonsense about how magic crystals cure cancer. From my experience, we tend to have longer, more active (and sometimes more acrimonious) discussions when a source does meet some (or many, or even all) of the MEDRS checkboxes. Sometimes a journal publishes something outside their usual experience or expertise. Sometimes a generally-competent and oft-published scientist starts pontificating on stuff they don't really understand (perhaps from within the warm and fuzzy cocoon of tenure) and it gets tagged in PubMed as a review article and pushes our 'ooh shiny secondary source' buttons. Sometimes the article was written by an editorial board member and the peer review was kind of squishy. Sometimes there's just a bad paper published in a good journal, for whatever reason. On the flip side, sometimes there are good papers in low-impact journals: young scientists, yeoman work on confirmation, etc. I'm wary that a journal/article evaluation tool might inadvertently frame or distort our current organic approach to evaluating sources. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:18, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- I was going to use this with a few tweaks (font and color changes) for my interface design.
Zad68
16:47, 1 November 2012 (UTC)- Too complex for some, but will no doubt be popular in certain, erm, spheres. LeadSongDog come howl! 17:52, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- I was going to use this with a few tweaks (font and color changes) for my interface design.
- I do not understand who would use this or when. The information you named ought to be in an infobox for each journal, and once it is there, why should it be anywhere else? Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:55, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
Being fat isn't bad for your health?
This article Fat_acceptance_movement#Modern_movement appears to claim that being fat isn't bad for your health. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:27, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- I see no suggestion in that section that there are no medical consequences to being overweight or obese. A little farther down, in the criticism section, issues of cmedical consequences are given some airing, but personally i find the anti-shaming arguments generally compelling. Also, the clinical terms, as above, are "obese" and "overweight," not "fat" which seems to carry slightly more stigma than the former two, at least at the moment. UseTheCommandLine (talk) 10:39, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- The Fat_acceptance_movement#Modern_movement section certainly deserves its tag, imo. At the same time, the stigma issue is clearly a relevant topic from a health perspective [16]. —MistyMorn (talk) 11:23, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- I suppose it depends on what you mean by "bad for your health". There was a media flurry a little while ago reporting that obesity, if not accompanied by hypertension, diabetes, etc., had no negative effect on heart health. About a quarter of obese people fall into that group, and if heart disease is your definition of "health", then it's not bad for that lucky minority. Also, overweight people are more likely to survive a MI than thin people, so it could even be positive, in a limited sense. I think the comment in a prior section is probably right: "it's complicated". WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:34, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
Within scope?
Is Mindfulness-based_stress_reduction#Benefits within scope of this project? It appears to state that there are benefits to this therapy and that it says "Practicing MBSR can change the brain and how it works". The poor sourcing, and quotes of benefits from the proponents, raises a red flag for me that there might be cherry picking going on. IRWolfie- (talk) 11:43, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- I would think this would be more WP:PSYCH's bag, though there's no bright line UseTheCommandLine (talk) 11:53, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Imo, each of the claimed health benefits should be substantiated by WP:MEDRS (irrespective of project scope). —MistyMorn (talk) 12:01, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Adding: This PubMed search string
"Stress, Psychological"[Majr] AND mindfulness[ti] AND (2007[PDAT] : 2013[PDAT]) AND (Review[ptyp] OR systematic[sb])
turns up several more potential MEDRS from recent years (and there may well be other relevant candidates, eg [17]). It seems to me though that, sourcing and encyclopedic style apart, there's probably a basic issue of perspective (advocacy?), perhaps outside the scope of this particular project. Just 2c, —MistyMorn (talk) 12:42, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
Page move
Hola,
I've tidied Klinefelter's syndrome a bit the past couple days, which led me to notice many sources refer to it without the possessive. I've started a section discussing a move, in case any WT:MED participants wanted to pop by, or perhaps a bold admin wants to move it over the current redirect. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 15:40, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- I commented there. Flyer22 (talk) 20:14, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- very imprecise method of deciding which is most notable...
No pubmed hits Klinefelter 3717 Klinefelters 9 Klinefelter's 1752
Renaming Skene's gland
Seeing as Skene's gland has been renamed to "female prostrate" by the Federative International Committee on Anatomical Terminology[18], I think it would be appropriate to change the article title as well. Autharitus (talk) 11:15, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Not based on the Seattle Times I hope. Do we have a better ref? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 11:43, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- article is from 2006, but i can't find a copy of the FICAT terminology and it seems like propagation is slow, not seeing the term widely used elsewhere in my searches. UseTheCommandLine (talk) 12:03, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Hmm, I found this paper. However the phrase is rarely used. The article should remain with its current title. Axl ¤ [Talk] 12:19, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- I did manage to find the Terminologia Anatomica: International Anatomical Terminology on googlebooks [19], but here they are instead listed as minor vestibular glands. The book is published in 1998, however. If the article in the Seattle times is true, one can wonder what the point is in having an international committee that sets standards in medical terminology while not informing the rest of the medical community about them, and whether they should be considered an authority on the subject on an online wikipedia. Their official website looks rather shabby as well. Oh well. Maybe someone else knows more about this; from my (minor) experiences in the subject, it seems that medical terminology is trying to move away from non-functional (if that is the correct term?) names. Autharitus (talk) 12:29, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- article is from 2006, but i can't find a copy of the FICAT terminology and it seems like propagation is slow, not seeing the term widely used elsewhere in my searches. UseTheCommandLine (talk) 12:03, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Leave as Skene's gland for now, since it's the common name and there's no apparent consensus for change in reliable sources. I want to emphasize, though this was obviously just a typo, that there's a huge difference between the words "prostrate" and "prostate", though problems with the latter can lead to the former condition. -- Scray (talk) 20:33, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
AfD: ALCAT test
Just thought some here might be interested in AfD: ALCAT test. -- Scray (talk) 01:21, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
German translation
If someone reads (medical) German fairly easily, commons:Category:Plates and drawings of human anatomy from Der ärztliche Ratgeber in Wort und Bild by Siebert has some disease-related drawings with German captions. It would be handy to have a translation, or even a transcript (which would be searchable, unlike the text that is in the original images, and something that could be pasted into Google Translate at a pinch). I'd like to get these categorized as something more specific than "diseases and disorders", and that's a lot easier to do when I know what I'm looking at.
As each drawing only has a few words on it (e.g., one says only "Windpocken", which means chickenpox), I suspect that the translations will be quick and simple.
Thanks, WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:07, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
Plagiarism of WP content (again)
Hi,
I have posted at the Village Pump Idea lab with the goal of getting some clear policy/procedure guidance on addressing external plagiarism of WP content. Since I know many of you here were involved in a discussion over the same topic a few weeks ago, I would appreciate your input in that forum. I recently ran into another, more trivial external copyvio, and think that we could probably come up with some template language and guidance that would be of benefit to WP and outreach efforts.
thanks.
UseTheCommandLine (talk) 20:16, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
As I am withdrawing from WP, somebody else should take over this discussion. Thanks. --Guillaume2303 (talk) 22:27, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
- Unfortunate to see you withdraw. Good editors are really needed. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 01:22, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- Does anyone know what happened? This user's talk page says that they were getting off-wiki harassment related to their actions on Wikipedia. I would like to know more so that whatever happened could be prevented for others. Blue Rasberry (talk) 21:15, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- It's my impression that he's encountered a POV-pushing stalker. There isn't a reliable way of completely preventing appalling behavior like that, since anyone can create an account. We sometimes just have to clean up the mess after it happens. Wikipedia:How not to get outed identifies some precautions that editors can take if they want to reduce their risks. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:26, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Any of you care to comment on this?[20] 108.60.139.1703 (talk) 20:48, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that information should be added if sources are found. I inserted a request for sources on that discussion topic. Blue Rasberry (talk) 21:10, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for commenting. And as for sources, like I mentioned (even in my most recent statement at the article talk page[21]), we had a whole article on it (with views from both sides) and some of the material is still currently in the Foreskin article. 108.60.139.170 (talk) 01:14, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
Outside orgs
Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#stamp_of_approval_for_pages_from_recognized_organizations_.28specifically_medical_information_pages_within_Wikipedia.29 might interest some of you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:00, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Redirects from Latin terminology
Hi. I have a general request that I hope you will help me with. When you are editing and especially creating new articles, could you please make a redirect from the Latin term to the article? Since most European countries with the exception of the UK use Latin terms it would help a lot of people to find information with these redirect (the Latin term is often included in the article so it would not take more than additional 30 seconds). This would also make it easier for many people to add to the anatomy project. Thank you --JakobSteenberg (talk) 00:28, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
Fecal incontinence article
This article needs some major attention from this project. A related article was recently merged into it and now there is a lot that needs sorting out, as is mentioned on the article's talk page. 108.60.139.170 (talk) 01:20, 10 November 2012 (UTC)