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→My little spreadsheet: update -I see I've been sidelined again.... |
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===My little spreadsheet=== |
===My little spreadsheet=== |
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Keeping on eye the systematic bias angle: |
Keeping on eye the systematic bias angle: 50 votes so far. 21 Users whose nationality I cannot identify '''or''' they are non-British/Irish; those votes split 6 (for F) - 15 (for an alternative). |
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*British editors ( |
*British editors (19) voting 12 - 7 in favour of F. |
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*Irish (the sovereign country) editors (10) voting 7 - 3 against F. |
*Irish (the sovereign country) editors (10) voting 7 - 3 against F. |
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*As things stand the vote is 21 for F v. |
*As things stand the vote is 21 for F v. 29 not for F. |
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*Without the British input there would be 31 votes; 9 for F v. 22 not for F. |
*Without the British input there would be 31 votes; 9 for F v. 22 not for F. |
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I'll keep this updated. |
I'll keep this updated. |
Revision as of 07:41, 3 August 2009
Ireland (republic of) and similar configurations
Why does only the "no change" option allow us to continue using Republic of Ireland rather than Ireland (state)? john k (talk) 17:11, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- 'Cause, that's the current name of the country article. GoodDay (talk) 17:13, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- What I mean is, there's no option for, for instance, having Ireland (island) and Republic of Ireland as our two articles, which I would prefer to most of the current options. john k (talk) 17:17, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- That was an option that didn't make the cut, during the process. GoodDay (talk) 17:21, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- ...and there'll almost certainly be redirects covering the missing options, so your preference may well come to pass indirectly. Cheers, TFOWRThis flag once was red 17:25, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Ireland (Republic of), which dabs and also makes clear that RoI isn't the name of the country was dropped by the closing Admin because he "couldn't see any difference". This is part of the problem with overcoming systematic bias on Wiki. Sarah777 (talk) 18:50, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- If "Republic of Ireland" doesn't remain the "Ireland" holding space, I have a cunning plan to create an article there, about the descriptive term. Cheers, TFOWRThis flag once was red 18:54, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Why wait?! Sarah777 (talk) 19:01, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Because there's currently a different article at Republic of Ireland. Cheers, TFOWRThis flag once was red 19:06, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Be careful not to get knocked over in the rush. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 19:09, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- If there's content ready to go, great. Article or redirect, I would imagine john k will be happy so long as "Republic of Ireland" exists in one form or another, and points readers in roughly the right direction. Cheers, TFOWRThis flag once was red 19:13, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- My assumption was that there was no possibility that Republic of Ireland wouldn't at least be a redirect. john k (talk) 19:16, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Considering the number of votes for the article to remain at ROI, if that option does lose i find it very hard to believe it would not be a direct. This is something that would have to be confirmed and agreed to following the vote before any move takes place though. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:42, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- My assumption was that there was no possibility that Republic of Ireland wouldn't at least be a redirect. john k (talk) 19:16, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- If there's content ready to go, great. Article or redirect, I would imagine john k will be happy so long as "Republic of Ireland" exists in one form or another, and points readers in roughly the right direction. Cheers, TFOWRThis flag once was red 19:13, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Why wait?! Sarah777 (talk) 19:01, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- "Ireland (Republic of) ... was dropped by the closing Admin because he 'couldn't see any difference'." - !? It got dropped because it didn't win |the vote. It didn't win the vote because you (like most people) didn't vote for it. The "closing admin" or "systematic bias" doesn't come into it. You didn't vote for it so it's not on the ballot. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 19:01, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- If "Republic of Ireland" doesn't remain the "Ireland" holding space, I have a cunning plan to create an article there, about the descriptive term. Cheers, TFOWRThis flag once was red 18:54, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Ireland (Republic of), which dabs and also makes clear that RoI isn't the name of the country was dropped by the closing Admin because he "couldn't see any difference". This is part of the problem with overcoming systematic bias on Wiki. Sarah777 (talk) 18:50, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- ...and there'll almost certainly be redirects covering the missing options, so your preference may well come to pass indirectly. Cheers, TFOWRThis flag once was red 17:25, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- That was an option that didn't make the cut, during the process. GoodDay (talk) 17:21, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- What I mean is, there's no option for, for instance, having Ireland (island) and Republic of Ireland as our two articles, which I would prefer to most of the current options. john k (talk) 17:17, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- How inaccurate can you be? I did vote for it; third preference. The closing Admin went with only two preferences because he reckoned Ireland (the Republic) was the same as RoI! That is the problem. Sarah777 (talk) 21:19, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Fourth preference in a vote where there we had decided in advance that, at the most, only three options would be going forward. As it was, "Ireland (state)" was the run-away winner so it would logically follow that "Ireland (state)" would finish ahead of any alternative that put forward to this vote. "How inaccurate can you be?" I could say it was dropped because the closing admin "couldn't see any difference" and blame it on "systematic bias" rather than admit that the reason it didn't go forward was because I didn't vote for it? Just thought. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 22:18, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Third; where we had agreed 3 would go forward. Option G; Ireland (republic). Sarah777 (talk) 22:28, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed in advance: "Results of the vote will yield two (or possibly three if the numbers clearly warrant it)..."
- Choice on ballot: "C: Ireland (Republic of)"
- Your vote: "A F G C B D E" (Fourth preference highlighted.)
- Your claim above: "Ireland (Republic of) ... was dropped by the closing Admin because...he 'couldn't see any difference'."
- "Ireland (Republic of)"" is not an option here because you (like most people) didn't vote for it in the preliminary ballot. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 22:44, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Third; where we had agreed 3 would go forward. Option G; Ireland (republic). Sarah777 (talk) 22:28, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Fourth preference in a vote where there we had decided in advance that, at the most, only three options would be going forward. As it was, "Ireland (state)" was the run-away winner so it would logically follow that "Ireland (state)" would finish ahead of any alternative that put forward to this vote. "How inaccurate can you be?" I could say it was dropped because the closing admin "couldn't see any difference" and blame it on "systematic bias" rather than admit that the reason it didn't go forward was because I didn't vote for it? Just thought. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 22:18, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- How inaccurate can you be? I did vote for it; third preference. The closing Admin went with only two preferences because he reckoned Ireland (the Republic) was the same as RoI! That is the problem. Sarah777 (talk) 21:19, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Ireland (republic) = Ireland (Republic of) = Ireland (The Republic) = Ireland (Republic) = Ireland (the Republic) but none of them = Republic of Ireland. Period. Cut the nonsense; the unacceptable status quo has a huge advantage when set against numerous acceptable alternatives. Sarah777 (talk) 22:59, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- The Final Poll is barely a few hours old, let's not make assumptions about the outcome. GoodDay (talk) 23:09, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- LOL. You didn't vote for it = it's not on the ballot. ("Ireland (Republic of)" was my first choice in the preliminary vote by the way.)
- "...the [...] status quo has a huge advantage when set against numerous [...] alternatives..." That's why we are using preferential voting. It doesn't explain why you didn't vote for an option then blame the closing admin for not choosing it. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 23:16, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- I did. There are a dozen permutations of "Ireland (republic of)" - one is enough to represent the whole. Stop being silly. Sarah777 (talk) 23:22, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Two such permutations were on the preliminary ballot. They were your 3rd and 4th preference. The best placed one ("Ireland (republic)") came 3rd in the result. Your vote did not count towards it because your 1st preference ("Ireland (country)") came second and your 2nd preference ("Ireland (state)") came first by a landslide. What are you complaining about? One of your higher ranked preferences topped the poll and is therefore in this ballot. You got what you voted for. If you preferred a permutation of "Ireland (Republic of)" over "Ireland (state)" or "Ireland (country)" then you should have ranked it higher. No-one is a mind reader around here.
- I did vote for "Ireland (Republic of)", by the way, and "Ireland (republic)" was included on the ballot at my request. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 23:37, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- I did. There are a dozen permutations of "Ireland (republic of)" - one is enough to represent the whole. Stop being silly. Sarah777 (talk) 23:22, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
IF "Republic of Ireland" doesn't remain the "Ireland" holding space, I have a cunning plan to create an article there"" Ummm you will not!!!! this vote makes very very clear that Republic of Ireland is to be a redirect if option F is not chosen. That is binding for 2 years.. so ur cunning plan will have to wait till then :) BritishWatcher (talk) 19:12, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Damn it, ive been looking at the move -> things thinking they meant redirect also. I guess it was never agreed the future of that article if there was a change. someone did try creating text for that article some time ago. Anyway that would fall within the scope of the stuff that needs sorting out before any of the changes happen. To think that is going to be anything other than a redirect is alarming though and if the articles are to be moved, i can imagine months of disputes about the ROI being a redirect. But the poll info does make clear for sure that those remaining things will be sorted BEFORE a move. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:32, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- I'd kind of assumed that whatever was decided, all the usual suspects for redirects would be done - so, if "F" (say) wins, "Ireland (island)" will redirect to "Ireland", etc. You're right, though - any discussion about anything other than the current poll is probably best left until later. Cheers, TFOWRThis flag once was red 19:40, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- How come nobody mentioned that the "cunning" edit has already been done? Scolaire (talk) 20:29, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- But Ireland is the state and island, and that's what the 'Ireland article' is about, reads the same! Tfz 20:38, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid alluded to it, above (kind of: Domer moved, as I understand it, the "cunning" from article space to a sandbox). Cheers, TFOWRThis flag once was red 20:41, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- How come nobody mentioned that the "cunning" edit has already been done? Scolaire (talk) 20:29, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
My little spreadsheet
Keeping on eye the systematic bias angle: 50 votes so far. 21 Users whose nationality I cannot identify or they are non-British/Irish; those votes split 6 (for F) - 15 (for an alternative).
- British editors (19) voting 12 - 7 in favour of F.
- Irish (the sovereign country) editors (10) voting 7 - 3 against F.
- As things stand the vote is 21 for F v. 29 not for F.
- Without the British input there would be 31 votes; 9 for F v. 22 not for F.
I'll keep this updated. Sarah777 (talk) 00:25, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Comments on My Little Spreadsheet
- Im sure you will BritishWatcher (talk) 22:22, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Count on it. Sarah777 (talk) 22:26, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- In your next update please remove Irish editors as well just out of interest. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:27, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Hardly! The article in question is about Ireland. D'oh! Sarah777 (talk) 22:30, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. :) wooops.. Northern Ireland i mean, see what happens when u just say Ireland instead of Republic of Ireland / Northern Ireland? BritishWatcher (talk) 23:08, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- And nobody is trying to call NI by a "description"; despite "The Failed Entity" being a pretty good one. Sarah777 (talk) 23:12, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. :) wooops.. Northern Ireland i mean, see what happens when u just say Ireland instead of Republic of Ireland / Northern Ireland? BritishWatcher (talk) 23:08, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Hardly! The article in question is about Ireland. D'oh! Sarah777 (talk) 22:30, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- I'll keep an eye on those who support Options G-Z (as they'll be slightly confused). GoodDay (talk) 22:29, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- In your next update please remove Irish editors as well just out of interest. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:27, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Count on it. Sarah777 (talk) 22:26, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
By the way: - I assume there is a rule that nobody who wasn't registered before today is prevented from voting? We wouldn't want a plethora of "Irish" citizens new to Wiki finding their way here. (Or any other sort). Sarah777 (talk) 22:36, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Aye, it says above Users who registered after 1 June 2009 may not vote (per Project consensus) but may contribute comments on the Talk page. Cheers, TFOWRThis flag once was red 22:40, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- The excitements getting too much for me. I'm away to lie down for 42 days. Jack forbes (talk) 22:45, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Why not do it on a weighted scale? People's votes could have more value depending on their "Irishness" rating e.g.
- Born in Ireland, can trace ancestry back to 3 May 1241 or earlier = 10pts
- Other born in Ireland = 9 pts
- Gave money to Noraid in 1987 = 8 pts
- Irish granny = 7 pts
- Picked mushrooms in Kilkenny for a year to fund flatbuy in Krakow = 6 pts
- Goes to Irish bar once a month = 5 pts
- Downloaded Enya album within last 3 months = 4 pts (+possible sympathy bonus point for those who admit it)
- etc? Valenciano (talk) 23:11, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Whatever. Sarah777 (talk) 23:14, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- But all I'm looking at is: Irish Citizen/Not Irish Citizen. As an indicator. That too complicated for you? Sarah777 (talk) 23:17, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- And don't worry V, I've included as one of the Irish voting for the British solution. One of the three so far. Sarah777 (talk) 23:29, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Whew! That's mostly what I *was worried* about. Thanks. :) It might all be academic anyway, F is ahead but only about 50-55% in the final analysis, still 41 days left. Valenciano (talk) 23:37, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- And don't worry V, I've included as one of the Irish voting for the British solution. One of the three so far. Sarah777 (talk) 23:29, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- But all I'm looking at is: Irish Citizen/Not Irish Citizen. As an indicator. That too complicated for you? Sarah777 (talk) 23:17, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Whatever. Sarah777 (talk) 23:14, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- The excitements getting too much for me. I'm away to lie down for 42 days. Jack forbes (talk) 22:45, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, when you talk of people "in favour of" F, are you just referring to those with it as their first choice, or what exactly? Just making sure I'm not being counted as someone in favour of it given that it's my 5th choice! ~ mazca talk 23:31, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- First choice only; I also exclude 2nd choice as well as 5th - so it should still give a reasonable indication. Sarah777 (talk) 23:33, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- So you are counting people as "against F" even if that is their second choice? lol BritishWatcher (talk) 23:38, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Sarah keep this up and you'll have half the voters uploading passports scans out of panic! Valenciano (talk) 23:40, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Only one has chosen F as their second choice, so far. Oh, and I could apply for my Irish passport. Could I get one within 42 days? Jack forbes (talk) 23:45, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- V, it's not rocket science. I'm going by what folk say on their User pages. BritishW; I'm counting "not F #1" as...well...."not F". Sue me. Sarah777 (talk) 23:48, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Jack like Sarah I'm also keeping my own little tally and there are two second prefs for F but tonnes for D an option which so far is completely bombing. Valenciano (talk) 23:55, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- D could be the dark horse in the race. Nobody likes it much be it might be the alternative to "F" least disliked. As the various permutations of "Ireland (Republic of)" have been eliminated before the vote. Sarah777 (talk) 00:01, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
- In fact. if "F" doesn't get over 50% I might suggest some variant of "Ireland (Republic of)" be given as a compromise. Sarah777 (talk) 00:03, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
- I would of thought D would be doing better than it is at the moment, last time i looked not a single first vote. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:09, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
- But....37 out of 47 have C, D or E as 1st or second preference (or both), that's nearly 80%. What they all have in common is that "RoI" would be replaced by "Ireland (state)"! Sarah777 (talk) 00:17, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
- I could live with that. A and B are the only ones I actively opposed and they're getting nowhere. D is the least hated option but no one's voting for it! Valenciano (talk) 00:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) To be fair that's probably at least partially because for some reason the RoI equivalents of C and E are not included in the poll. The only direct comparison of RoI vs. (state) is D vs. F. I still don't quite understand why that is the case. Guest9999 (talk) 00:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
- I could live with that. A and B are the only ones I actively opposed and they're getting nowhere. D is the least hated option but no one's voting for it! Valenciano (talk) 00:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
- But....37 out of 47 have C, D or E as 1st or second preference (or both), that's nearly 80%. What they all have in common is that "RoI" would be replaced by "Ireland (state)"! Sarah777 (talk) 00:17, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
- I would of thought D would be doing better than it is at the moment, last time i looked not a single first vote. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:09, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
- In fact. if "F" doesn't get over 50% I might suggest some variant of "Ireland (Republic of)" be given as a compromise. Sarah777 (talk) 00:03, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
- D could be the dark horse in the race. Nobody likes it much be it might be the alternative to "F" least disliked. As the various permutations of "Ireland (Republic of)" have been eliminated before the vote. Sarah777 (talk) 00:01, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
- Only one has chosen F as their second choice, so far. Oh, and I could apply for my Irish passport. Could I get one within 42 days? Jack forbes (talk) 23:45, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Sarah keep this up and you'll have half the voters uploading passports scans out of panic! Valenciano (talk) 23:40, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- So you are counting people as "against F" even if that is their second choice? lol BritishWatcher (talk) 23:38, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- First choice only; I also exclude 2nd choice as well as 5th - so it should still give a reasonable indication. Sarah777 (talk) 23:33, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
I am keeping in mind as I look at the votes that there will likely be some vote changing over the next 6 weeks as people choose a strategic #1 or #2 just to ensure a specific last choice does not become the winner. Nothing here is cast in stone or even written on archival paper. // BL \\ (talk) 00:56, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
For the record, I am neither British nor Irish. I voted the way I did based entirly on the strength of the arguments presented. Bonewah (talk) 04:36, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
- It's surprising that you didn't take in to account that a lot of people who live in the state really find "Republic of Ireland" to be problematic if not offensive. It's that which is why we keep coming back to this dispute, which has gone on for seven years. Vote as you like, of course. But it's surprising to me to see "non-partisan" votes for the status quo. -- Evertype·✆ 07:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)