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:Before another MoS holy war gets rolling too far, a few facts: |
:Before another MoS holy war gets rolling too far, a few facts: |
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:*Strong consensus from a recent straw poll at [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Canada-related articles)#Date format: Towards consistency: M D Y or D M Y ?]] backs the existing [[WP:DATEVAR]] statement on Canadian subjects; |
:*Strong consensus from a recent straw poll at [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Canada-related articles)#Date format: Towards consistency: M D Y or D M Y ?]] backs the existing [[WP:DATEVAR]] statement on Canadian subjects; |
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::*[[Mu (negative)]]. That was short format. We are discussing long format. |
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:*Walter Görlitz's statements about "The American long format is the format of preference" is one big <sup><font color="#0000ff">''[citation needed]''</font></sup> and debatable as follows... |
:*Walter Görlitz's statements about "The American long format is the format of preference" is one big <sup><font color="#0000ff">''[citation needed]''</font></sup> and debatable as follows... |
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::*Already given at [[talk:Victoria Day]]. Preference by Canadian Press. |
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:*Government usage is demonstrably inconsistent - while American formats are seen, international formats are also frequently seen at such sites as [http://www.weatheroffice.gc.ca/city/pages/on-143_metric_e.html Environment Canada], [http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/default.asp PM], [http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2010/2010-4.htm CRTC], [http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?cat=00 DND] |
:*Government usage is demonstrably inconsistent - while American formats are seen, international formats are also frequently seen at such sites as [http://www.weatheroffice.gc.ca/city/pages/on-143_metric_e.html Environment Canada], [http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/default.asp PM], [http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2010/2010-4.htm CRTC], [http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?cat=00 DND] |
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::*[[Mu (negative)]] again. Short format, yes. Long format never. |
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:*Other style guides such as ''The Canadian Style'' accept both long formats [http://www.termiumplus.gc.ca/tcdnstyl-chap?lang=eng&lettr=indx57&info0=5.14#zz57] |
:*Other style guides such as ''The Canadian Style'' accept both long formats [http://www.termiumplus.gc.ca/tcdnstyl-chap?lang=eng&lettr=indx57&info0=5.14#zz57] |
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::*Finally a salient point. |
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:*Newspaper-based styles such as the Canadian Press guides should not be considered reliable nor be given much weight - [[WP:NOTNEWS|Wikipedia is not a newspaper]] for one thing, and Canadian newspapers actually used American spelling until the 1990s (''The Globe and Mail'' began the trend away from that in October 1990); |
:*Newspaper-based styles such as the Canadian Press guides should not be considered reliable nor be given much weight - [[WP:NOTNEWS|Wikipedia is not a newspaper]] for one thing, and Canadian newspapers actually used American spelling until the 1990s (''The Globe and Mail'' began the trend away from that in October 1990); |
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::*While not a newspaper, newspapers use style guides and hence it does apply here. |
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:*Academic usage is not consistent e.g. [http://communications.uvic.ca/publications/style/section-8.html#21 UVic]; [[University of Toronto Press]] books tend to avoid American format; |
:*Academic usage is not consistent e.g. [http://communications.uvic.ca/publications/style/section-8.html#21 UVic]; [[University of Toronto Press]] books tend to avoid American format; |
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:In conclusion, the "preference" is debatable, various date formats have usage in Canada, there is no evidence that the edit wars are a pandemic (at least not beyond a few indicated cases), and consensus does not support any changes to the existing [[WP:DATEVAR]]/[[WP:RETAIN]] statements with respect to Canadian subjects. [[User:Dl2000|Dl2000]] ([[User talk:Dl2000|talk]]) 01:41, 3 June 2010 (UTC) |
:In conclusion, the "preference" is debatable, various date formats have usage in Canada, there is no evidence that the edit wars are a pandemic (at least not beyond a few indicated cases), and consensus does not support any changes to the existing [[WP:DATEVAR]]/[[WP:RETAIN]] statements with respect to Canadian subjects. [[User:Dl2000|Dl2000]] ([[User talk:Dl2000|talk]]) 01:41, 3 June 2010 (UTC) |
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:: Edit wars are not the issue. Editors going in and changing the format and then stating that it should not be changed citing MoS and other issues is. There is no harm in discussing it provided that it doesn't become a holy war or VHS/Beta or Windows/Mac/Linux battle. --[[User:Walter Görlitz|Walter Görlitz]] ([[User talk:Walter Görlitz|talk]]) 01:53, 3 June 2010 (UTC) |
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== Proposal to remove that ugly and useless "MOS Review" box == |
== Proposal to remove that ugly and useless "MOS Review" box == |
Revision as of 01:53, 3 June 2010
Manual of Style | ||||||||||
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This talk page is for discussion of the page WP:Manual of Style (dates and numbers). Please use it to make constructive suggestions as to the wording of that page.
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Date format and Rjwilmsi
I'm trying to find where there is consensus to what is being done exactly here. I'm not against it but this is the type of thing that inflamed the date delinking wars last time and there needs to be clear support to do it.
Specifically, User:Rjwilmsi is going through numerous articles tagged with {{use dmy dates}} or {{use mdy dates}} via AWB and converting the dates. Technically so far so good, but most of these seem to be converting the dates in the citations to the indicated format. I note that a major point in the past and still present in MOSNUM is that dates need to be consistent in the body of the article, and dates need to be consistent in the citations, but there does not need to be consistency of dates between the body and citations. It is unclear if the two templates were meant to be used to apply to citations, and if Rjwilmsi's changes are overriding the editors' preference on affected articles. I've not seen any date-related issues pop up recently so I'm wondering if this was an effort taken on only by the editor (there's a discussion with him on the talk page with OhConfusius regarding a safe range of pages to use it on, but the recent edits are considerably outside OC's suggestion).
I realize this basically converting ISO formats in the citations, and the amount of "harm" done is minimal, but again, I'm far from the extreme position of this and think there needs to be better assurance on this process. --MASEM (t) 21:24, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- If I'm not mistaken, the issue would be if the user were changing the dates within quotations; I don't think that consistency within citation templates is an issue, but I'm sure someone will speak up if I'm wrong. —Ost (talk) 21:40, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well for example, I prefer ISO dates in citations as it is much easier to edit and expand an article as long as they are consistent, but use the appropriate dmy or mdy dates for the body. My preference is supported by MOSNUM, just as the changed versions are too. The thing is is that from date delinking, we know editors are super-protective of articles such that without a good reason to make the change, this is bound to get some backlash. --MASEM (t) 21:45, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- I agree. Martinvl (talk) 12:26, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- I concur. I also prefer ISO dates in citations because they are quick, concise, and easy to put in; and unambiguous to read. However, I use fully spelled out dmy or mdy dates in the body text. RockyMtnGuy (talk) 14:52, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- Dates in the format YYYY-MM-DD are ambiguous. During the debates concerning this format, two reasons for ambiguity became apparent:
- The importance of the YYYY-MM-DD format is that the digits are ordered by size, biggest first. If that were to be emphasised in the MoS, the confusion could be removed. Martinvl (talk) 21:17, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- No, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, we must suppose that our readers, who probably never read the MoS, share the same confusion about the format as our editors. While there is a slender hope that revising the MoS might inform our editors, there is no hope that doing so would inform our readers. Jc3s5h (talk) 23:21, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
- Abso-damned-lutely, if I may wax infixive. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ Contribs. 06:13, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- No, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, we must suppose that our readers, who probably never read the MoS, share the same confusion about the format as our editors. While there is a slender hope that revising the MoS might inform our editors, there is no hope that doing so would inform our readers. Jc3s5h (talk) 23:21, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
- I agree. Martinvl (talk) 12:26, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well for example, I prefer ISO dates in citations as it is much easier to edit and expand an article as long as they are consistent, but use the appropriate dmy or mdy dates for the body. My preference is supported by MOSNUM, just as the changed versions are too. The thing is is that from date delinking, we know editors are super-protective of articles such that without a good reason to make the change, this is bound to get some backlash. --MASEM (t) 21:45, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
[outdent] I'm all for the conversion. It's completely retarded to use one date format in main prose and another in the citations attached to them, and using YYYY-MM-DD dates in articles AT ALL is a terrible idea, as has been discussed here many times, with no solid reason given in support of doing so. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ Contribs. 06:13, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well, thinking back to the RfC six months ago, that is just not true. There was more than solid support for using YYYY-MM-DD in citations, and yes Jc3s5h it is ISO format. Please refer to the aforementioned RfC before rehashing the same discussion. wjematherbigissue 08:20, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- An RfC cannot, by itself, adopt a technical specification which must be followed in Wikipedia. In fact, I don't think Wikipedia has ever adopted any external specification for article text (including citations). If such a thing were to be done, it would have to be made readily visible to all readers, and I am not aware of any such mechanism being available.
- Jc3s5h, are you done badgering anyone that dares speak the words "ISO format" or "ISO date"? Because it's really getting annoying, and seems to be your only contribution to the MoS. There's no need to adopt a policy to regulate how we talk to each other. When people start using in articles dates such as 1032-01-13, without mentioning that the date is ISO or not, feel free to plaster that article's talk page with a rant against the potentially improper usage of an ISO format date. These constant interruptions add nothing to the topic. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 14:36, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Talk page comments suggest that many participants have not the slightest clue about how to adopt a technical standard, or detect if text is governed by a technical standard. It seems that being a pain in the ass makes a small, but inadequate, contribution toward leading these editors out of their ignorance. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:02, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Doing the same thing and expecting different results is a common pathology. Perhaps something other than badgering them might work better. How about finding a persuasive argument that will change their minds instead? LeadSongDog come howl! 15:59, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Talk page comments suggest that many participants have not the slightest clue about how to adopt a technical standard, or detect if text is governed by a technical standard. It seems that being a pain in the ass makes a small, but inadequate, contribution toward leading these editors out of their ignorance. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:02, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Jc3s5h, are you done badgering anyone that dares speak the words "ISO format" or "ISO date"? Because it's really getting annoying, and seems to be your only contribution to the MoS. There's no need to adopt a policy to regulate how we talk to each other. When people start using in articles dates such as 1032-01-13, without mentioning that the date is ISO or not, feel free to plaster that article's talk page with a rant against the potentially improper usage of an ISO format date. These constant interruptions add nothing to the topic. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 14:36, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
(unindent) The intent is not so much to badger the person who incorrectly claims Wikipedia is governed by a particular standard, as to put others who might come across the claim on notice that the claim is disputed. I see no hope of ever resolving the date related disputes on Wikipedia, such as YYYY-MM-DD vs. DD Month YYYY or AD vs. CE. Jc3s5h (talk) 16:22, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- This incessant quibbling about date formats is highly annoying and not at all a positive contribution to the process of editing articles. I'm sitting here with a stack of cheques (I'm the Treasurer for a non-profit organization), and most of the dates are in ISO format, so obviously people can be trained to understand it. Of course, this is Canada, so our kilometrage may differ from your mileage, but I feel that even Americans and Brits can be retrained given sufficient effort and time. The cheque dates are machine-readable (mandatory in Canada, although ISO, American, and British/French date formats are the options). The ISO format is machine-friendly, and in case somebody hasn't noticed, we do everything on machines these days. I'm getting less and less inclined to compromise with latter-day Luddites who refuse to adopt international standards just because they hate change. One Luddite's standards always differ from another other Luddite's standards, particularly as regards American vs. British date formats. If some of these people had their way we'd still be entering dates in Roman numerals on the Julian calendar. (End of rant). RockyMtnGuy (talk) 16:35, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- RockyMtnGuy, where is your proposal that would thoroughly address all the problems with adopting one or more international standards, and insure that every single concept that needs to be expressed in Wikipedia can be expressed? Where is your transition plan, that will insure that no one launches a bot that misinterprets the meaning of information expressed in older ways? Surely you weren't expecting to slip anything through the back door, without thorough review (the way date autoformatting was slipped in). What method will you use to inform readers about any less-than-obvious meanings to information (usually numeric information) so that readers who never heard of MOSNUM will be properly informed? Jc3s5h (talk) 16:50, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- I have no intention of solving everyone's date problems in one fell swoop. (I used to do that sort of thing for a living, but I am retired now). In summary, there are two standard alphanumeric options: dd MMMM yyy (e.g. 31 December 2010) or MMMM dd, yyyy (e.g. December 31, 2010), both of which are unambiguous and equally well understood. The former might be called the British date format and the latter the American date format, but both the Brits and the Americans use either. All-numeric version of the British and American date formats are mutually ambiguous. The ISO date format is the only non-ambiguous all-numeric standard date format in common use (e.g. 2010-12-31). The ISO date format is the most concise and most computer-friendly one available, and is neither British nor American, but I personally like it for that reason. 14:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- The point is not to force the "ISO-like" date onto everyone, but, as per the date delinking/autoformating RFC, to leave it as an option for editors for citations only (that is, not in the article body, where only dmy or md,y format is appropriate; the sole exception being in {{sort}} templates for date sorting in tables). That was the end result of the whole date mess: one consistent style (of two) in the body, and one consistent style (of three) in the citations, with the choice left to either some basic rules on geography of the article followed by the initial's author style. The problem I believe is going to happen (and shown here) is that the bulk changes are getting rid of the ISO-like dates for the article style, overriding the editors' decision on that page. If we want to strip ISO dates from citations, we need another RFC to do that, because that wasn't a conclusion from the previous discussion. --MASEM (t) 14:50, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
12-hour clock
Which is right per WP:MOS? "At 8:45 a.m., blah blah. At 9:00 a.m., blah blah blah. At 9:30 a.m., ..." or "At 8:45 a.m., blah blah. At 9:00, blah blah blah. At 9:30, ...". - Dank (push to talk) 22:46, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
- P.S. The wording differs by one "should" on the two pages: "12-hour clock times end with dotted or undotted lower-case a.m. or p.m., or am or pm ..." here, and "12-hour clock times should end with dotted or undotted lower-case a.m. or p.m., or am or pm ..." at MOS. - Dank (push to talk) 03:20, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
- "The" which "two pages"? — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ Contribs. 06:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- MOS and MOSNUM. - Dank (push to talk) 21:32, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- "The" which "two pages"? — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ Contribs. 06:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- There's no reason to repeat the "a.m." stuff in sentences that close together. This isn't really a MOSNUM issue, it's a basic logic (redundancy) and style issue. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ Contribs. 06:23, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well, it's a MOS issue if MOS says something different ... and I think you could argue that the current wording requires the a.m. or p.m. every time, but if someone argues that, I'll ignore them, because everyone does as you say. Thanks. - Dank (push to talk) 21:32, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Expanding a bit of MOSNUM logic out to a more general MOS-ish topic
In Talk:Hybrid name#Spacing or not spacing the multiplication sign I strongly advocate the format "Genus × hybrid" rather than the "Genus ×hybrid" preferred by one botany organization. I've based much of this rationale on much of what is recommended with regard to spacing by WP:MOSNUM, and will be taking this to WT:MOS for discussion. I am thinking more broadly that the highly consistent spacing advice given here can be generalized into a clear principle in WP:MOS more broadly. The super-short version is "don't squish disparate types of text together (and no, we don't care if some group off-WP does)." :-) — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ Contribs. 06:22, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Proposal: use of SI units for technical information
Wikipedia being a worldwide source of information, I propose the SI unit to be given first for any technical information, no matter where the subject of the article was designed and/or manufactured. The only exception to that rule is if the unit use internationally is not SI; for example the altitude of flight of an aircraft is measured in feet (see Ceiling_(aeronautics)), hence the use of feet primarily when speaking about the altitude of an aircraft (the wingspan though, for example, would be in meters). Xionbox (talk) 19:37, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- Assuming you mean what I think you mean by "technical information" (which is a rather ambiguous term), I disagree. I would suggest that, if (for example) an aircraft was designed using non-metric units and then built based on non-metric specifications, it would seem odd to insist on putting the metric first regardless.
- The current rule is that we allow for non-metric units in contexts where they are (or were) in common use in topics that are specific to a given place, time or person. When something is commonly measured in non-metric units in the place to which it has a strong connection, it would seem odd for us to buck the trend. It also works well as a long-term compromise, given the fact that most countries and most people in the world use the metric system - but most of our audience live in countries where non-metric units are in common use. Pfainuk talk 20:59, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- The problem with both arguments here is that there can be endless debate about which unit to use, about what is technical and what is not, what is or was in common use in a particular place or time, or how many or few readers are familiar with metric or other units. The obvious solution is to supply both sets of units. However, this does not stop people from campaigning about which one should come first.
- One way to cut through the static is to state that as a general rule we should follow the most authoritative sources. This is more likely to reflect local usage than the preferences of either Imperial or metric campaigners. However, this is resisted by several editors with the following claims:
- It would lead to massive internal inconsistency. No evidence is ever supplied to back up this assertion.
- It would lead to cherry picking of sources. No evidence is ever supplied to back up this assertion.
- MOSNUM already says "If editors cannot agree on the sequence of units, put the source value first and the converted value second. If the choice of units is arbitrary, use SI units as the main unit, with converted units in parentheses." In my opinion this is eminently sensible and should be followed. Michael Glass (talk) 02:30, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
- MOSNUM states that the most appropriate unit should be used based on a number of factors including locality. Endless discussion has been had here already (fairly recently, please check the archives), and I can't think that there is anything new that would need us to go over it all again.
Michael, it is easy enough to back up the second assertion (which I have made several times) by simply pointing to your own contribution history. Also as I made clear to you last time, there is no official definitive ranking system that would let us know without question which sources are the "most authoritative". We do not need this discussion again. wjematherbigissue 06:10, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
- MOSNUM states that the most appropriate unit should be used based on a number of factors including locality. Endless discussion has been had here already (fairly recently, please check the archives), and I can't think that there is anything new that would need us to go over it all again.
- I agree with Wjemather. If you want to see all the responses to this, I suggest spending a day rereading the archives. It'll take all day because of the sheer number of discussions you have started on this topic, Michael. I suggest that you drop the stick and back slowly away from the rapidly drying red patch on the ground where the horse carcass used to be. Pfainuk talk 07:05, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
Wjemather, you have made several assertions.
- You have asserted that MOSNUM states "the most appropriate unit should be used based on a number of factors including locality". This distortes what the policy states. It says, "Except in the cases mentioned below, put the units first that are in the most widespread use in the world. Usually, these are International System of Units (SI) units and non-SI units accepted for use with SI; but there are various exceptions for some measurements, such as years for long periods of time or the use of feet in describing the altitude of aircraft." The other exceptions are also clearly set out, as are the rules to be followed in case of dispute.
- You have accused me of cherry picking sources. I am not aware of any occasion where another editor has come along and replaced one of the sources I quoted and substituted another source. You have stated that it is easy for you to quote an example of cherry picking of sources, so quote an example.
- You say that it isn't easy to decide which source is authoritative. Give an instance.
Can you back up your assertions? Michael Glass (talk) 08:42, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
- WHACK. Even though all that - WHACK - remains of the horse - WHACK - is a rapidly drying bloodstain on the ground - WHACK - I reckon we can still - WHACK - get it to move if we - WHACK - flog it enough. WHACK.
- Why is it, exactly, that you have to initiate exactly the same discussion point every three weeks? What, exactly, do you think is likely to make this discussion different from the last twenty on exactly the same topic? Where is the benefit in your repeating the same arguments continually for a matter of years? This has been done to death. There's no need to continually try to resurrect it. Pfainuk talk 12:41, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
- So we should put the dimensions of Buckingham Palace in imperial units despite that most of wikipedias users and tourist looking for information about it, uses the metric system? Chiton magnificus (talk) 16:22, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'll start by noting that statistics demonstrate that over 50% of our readers live in the United States, a country where non-metric units are primary. Nearly two thirds live in the US and UK combined, those being two countries where non-metric units are in common use. I think it's fair to suggest that, in fact, the majority of our readers use non-metric units.
- The majority of English speakers use American spellings. However, we rightly use British spellings in British articles. Similarly, though the majority of English speakers are more familiar with the older units than metric units, we supply both units in articles, so that the widest possible audience can understand. The question at issue is which unit should go first, metric or Imperial? In most cases it's a no-brainer: Metric for most of the world and US customary units for specifically US articles. Then comes the difficult one: Great Britain. In the British context, usage is divided and contested, and we have fights over which units to put first in some British articles.
- Xionbox's proposal is simple and practical: in general, follow the sources. So, when writing about technical subjects (or Buckingham Palace, for that matter), look at what the sources do, and as a general rule, follow it. This rule will help to ensure that Wikipedia will neither be too much in advance or too much behind British preferences. In practice, this would mean that the measures used on the Buckingham Palace website [1] would be put first in the Wikipedia article on Buckingham Palace. And that's what happens.
- Why then should such a moderate and sensible proposal be opposed so passionately? The answer is quite simple: it's too metric for the Imperial diehards. Now they are entitled to their opinion, just as the metric enthusiasts are entitled to theirs, but when it comes to setting policy, we need a simple, straightforward test that will cut through as much nonsense as possible. Xionbox's proposal will do that. Despite the fears of the diehards, there is plenty of British information in the older units, so their concerns are quite overblown. Indeed, if the warriors from both sides of the fence could put their energies into verifying facts, Wikipedia would be more accurate and less acrimonious. Michael Glass (talk) 04:53, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- Or perhaps it is simply perhaps because SI zealots are relentless in their efforts to marginalize the non-SI units? The best way to get both sides to do more important work like fact checking would be to cease bringing the issue up every other week. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 05:23, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- No Michael, you are wrong. MOS already accommodates the use of appropriate context specific units. You are seeking to justify mass conversion of articles based on selecting your preferred (or as you put it, "most authoritative") source. I say again, this tendentious raising of the same issue every few weeks must stop. If you continue, there will be no option but to move for a topic ban. wjematherbigissue 06:14, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
Wjemather, I asked you so substantiate your allegations. You didn't even try. Now, having failed to substantiate your allegations you have returned with threats. Your Argumentum ad baculum does not impress me. Your fear of the effect of finding authoritative information is as unfounded, as Headbomb's fear that non-SI units are about to be marginalised. Substantiating information in Wikipedia articles is not going to cause the collapse of the older measures. Michael Glass (talk) 06:42, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- Why does this need going over continually? As per Headbomb, the best way of getting people to do more important things would be if you stopped making the same proposal over and over and over again. Pfainuk talk 07:37, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- The problem with forcing any "standard" to be first is that it may not be the choice of industry or sources relevant to that subject. They, industry and sources, may have chosen to specifically not use the "standard" which means in those situations Wikipedia would be pushing a point of view inconsistent with the real world standard use. This would be contrary to the aims of Wikipedia regarding neutrality, which are the most important aims. Glider87 (talk) 16:20, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- Glider87's comment above gives good reasons for following the sources when deciding the order of units in an article. Michael Glass (talk) 08:32, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
- The guidelines already address Xionbox and Glider87's concerns.
- "In scientific articles, use the units employed in the current scientific literature on that topic. This will usually be SI, but not always...",
- "Some disciplines use units not approved by the BIPM, or write them differently from BIPM-prescribed format. When a clear majority of the sources relevant to those disciplines use such units, articles should follow this (e.g., using cc in automotive articles and not cm3)",
- "Use familiar units rather than obscure units..."
- There is no cause for a change that I can see. wjematherbigissue 08:55, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
- The guidelines already address Xionbox and Glider87's concerns.
- Wjemather, two of the three points that you refer to could only be determined by reference to the current literature, so the principle of following the sources is already part of the policy. Michael Glass (talk) 14:08, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, but only relating to certain disciplines and scientific articles. It absolutely does not extend to the country-related metric/imperial arena, which is obviously what you want to see but as has been established previously is not going to fly. It is safe to say this discussion should now be closed, since the original concern is already covered by MOS and no changes are required. wjematherbigissue 14:45, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
- Four points in response:
- Following the sources is also part of the policy to resolve disagreements: If editors cannot agree on the sequence of units, put the source value first and the converted value second. If the choice of units is arbitrary, use SI units as the main unit, with converted units in parentheses.
- Xionbox's concern was about technical articles. To cover that concern the wording could be changed to read, In scientific and technical articles, use the units employed in the current scientific and technical literature on that topic. This will usually be SI, but not always; for example, natural units are often used in relativistic and quantum physics, and Hubble's constant should be quoted in its most common unit of (km/s)/Mpc rather than its SI unit of s−1. (possible additions bolded)
- We would need further discussion to determine if this change of wording was acceptable.
- I agree that wider questions could be better discussed in another thread. Michael Glass (talk) 02:17, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
- Four points in response:
- I agree with the proposed modifications of Michael. In addition, the MOSNUM does not explicitly say the SI units are mandatory, only the order of units is mentioned. I propose it explicitly mentioned the mandatory use of SI units. Some articles only mention information in Imperial units, which is very impractical for anyone not accustomed to these units.
- As for the statistics showing 52% of the visitors are from the US, one must keep in mind the US will eventually grow up/move on to the metric system. Hence, I see no reason why Wikipedia shouldn't be part of, or initiate, this major evolution, which would finally make the US comply with the rest of the world. As of the 10% of visitors which come the the UK, having a lot of contacts living in the UK, I can assure you most UK inhabitants understand the metric system correctly. My arguments make the statistical argument not entirely valid. Xionbox (talk) 16:28, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
- Er, no. MOS should absolutely not mandate the use of SI or metric units. Please refer to the related guidelines and the archives, where you will find countless reasons why your proposal is wholly unacceptable. If there are articles that provide only Imperial (or US Customary) measures, then conversions should be provided in parentheses per the guidelines. wjematherbigissue 16:46, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
- I see no reason why Wikipedia shouldn't be part of, or initiate, this major evolution. I do. It's essentially speculative. We should work based on the world as it is, not the world as we would like it to be. There are, as Wjemather says, very good reasons for imperial units to come first in some circumstances, including some that might very reasonably be described as "technical". All units, except in a few narrow situations, should be converted between the two (or three) systems anyway. Pfainuk talk 17:36, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
- Wjemather, please provide a concrete example of when Imperial measurement system should be used over the metric one. I just went over the archived "debate on measurements" and did not countless reasons why my proposal is not acceptable; actually, I didn't even find an example to prove Pfainuk's point that There are very good reasons for imperial units to come first in some circumstances.
- It is in fact speculative that the US will eventually switch to the metric system, however, identically to a child who likes to walk on all fours, they may have to be pushed to change to the metric system (or to walk on only two feet in the case of the child, no measurement pun indented).
- In addition, if the US officially changes to the metric system tomorrow (the US is in the process of change, as related by multiple source and the Wikipedia article about the metrication of the US), would you support to keep the old system as well? If so, it seems like you think the US visitors are not able to learn the metric system, which is a pretty sad view of the US people. Xionbox (talk) 22:42, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
- I am working on some early 8-bit microprocessor articles and the semiconductor industry used imperial units in the 1970s and 1980s. Silicon wafers were 2, 3, 4 or 5 inches in diameter and the individual die sizes were measured in "mils" (0.001 inch). The Intel 8080 microprocessor die was 165 x 191 mils. The Motorola 6800 started at 212 mils and was shrunk to 160 mils per side. The IC packages were 600 mils wide with 100 mil pin spacing. Inches and mils were used in technical journals, trade magazines and industry standards. Today everything is metric but virtually all of the sources from the 1970s and early 1980s use imperial units. -- SWTPC6800 (talk) 02:38, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- Xionbox, sadly it is clear that you have not looked through the archives thoroughly, but to answer your question: Imperial should be used in UK articles for road distances, speed limits, volumes of beer, personal measurements, etc., etc. There are many further common instances highlighted by the Times Style guide, but there will be others also. To address you other points, Wikipedia is not here to push anyone's WP:POV or persuade others to change from one system to another. It will certainly not be influential in any metrication in the US. Wikipedia should use the units that are appropriate to the context of the subject matter reflecting actual usage, whether that be metric, Imperial, US customary or some other discipline specific measure. wjematherbigissue 08:17, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
I actually agree with wjemather that Wikipedia is not the place to campaign for the adoption of the metric system, but equally it is not the place for a diehard stand in favour of the Imperial weights and measures. Here are things that we need to do to cater for English-speaking users of Wikipedia:
- Whatever the source of information we need to provide information that the widest number of people can understand. That often means providing information in two or even three sets of units.
- We need to respect local customs. That's why we have both English and American spellings on Wikipedia. This leads to anomalies such as Salt in American spelling but Iodised salt with British spellings.
- It's the same with weights and measures. In general we put American Customary units first in American articles and Metric units first in most of the rest of the world. In scientific articles the guidelines prefer the use of metric measures, with exceptions where scientists use different measures. That's the comparatively easy part. The hard part is with the United Kingdom, where both sets of units are used for different purposes, and the whole situation is quite controversial.
- Basically there are two ways of dealing with the questions that arise. One way is to provide a list of when to put what unit first. Another way is to refer to the sources. Both methods have both advantages and disadvantages so it's not surprising that both are mentioned in the style manual.
- Swtpc6800 mentioned early microprocessors. This is another area where referring to the sources about the units to put first would be valuable. The same applies to many technical areas, as Xionbox pointed out.
When it comes to guidelines I think we need them to clear, so editors know what the rules are, and it's also handy to have procedures to deal with disagreements. It's a pity that discussion gets so heated about this issue, but that's probably a lot to do with the situation in the UK. Michael Glass (talk) 14:32, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Falklands Units RFC
An RFC on units on articles related to the Falkland Islands has been started here. Editors are invited to comment. Pfainuk talk 07:19, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
Publishing deviations from the MOS
In certain cases it becomes necessary to publish special cases related to units of measure (for example, US-specific articles, UK-specific articles, scientific article etc). In order to provide transparency, especially where many groups are involved, may I suggest that the following be added as the last item in the subsection Which units to use and how to present them:
- If the preferred set of units of measure for an article or set of articles deviate from those described here and it is necessary to publish such changes, the publication should either be on this page or at the start of every affected article.
I am making this proposal because in 2009 the Falkland Islands Group agreed a consensus on units of measure which is now hidden in an archive. An article Geology of the Falkland Islands which was written by the Geology group was modified by a member of the Falkland Island Group because it did not conform to the Falkland Island Group consensus. This resulted in an edit war. Do we honestly expect members of the Geology Group to wade through Falkland Island Group, or should they be bound by such consensus? After all, the article concerned falls neatly into both groups' area of interest.
I believe that future problems of this sort can be solved by consensus of this nature being more openly published. My suggestion is to enable such open publication to take place.
Finally, should this apply only to units of measure, or to standards generally? Martinvl (talk) 07:25, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
- This is instruction creep.
- Y'know, the ironic thing is, the reason why we don't follow the MOS as closely as we might like on Falklands articles is because Martin won't let us. He insists that the MOS must apply - as though it were a law - but only in cases where it recommends metric units. In cases where it suggests that imperial units are to be preferred, the MOS becomes some evil thing that cannot be touched with a bargepole.
- This is just another standard tactic of Martin's. He knows he can't get consensus for 100% metrication of Falkland Islands against the MOS, so he's trying to force it through. He's repeatedly tried to have the most recent consensus position declared "null and void" on a variety of technicalities, and this appears to be an attempt to force things through by making life difficult for those who disagree with him. Pfainuk talk 17:42, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
- In his review of my proposal, User:Pfainuk uses the term "MOS". Had I not known him better, I would automatically have thought that he meant WP:MOS, but having seen his comment elsewhere, I cannot dismiss the possibility that he is really referring to WP:FALKLANDSUNITS. Would he please clarify what he means by "MOS"? Martinvl (talk) 19:35, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
- WP:FALKLANDSUNITS is not part of the MOS. It is - essentially - a proposal that we follow WP:UNITS, including imperial units all those contexts and only those contexts listed by WP:UNITS as contexts in which they are appropriate. You refuse to follow the MOS, insisting essentially that all units must be metric. Indeed, on prior form you've refused even to allow the conversion of metric units into imperial ones. This is the position that you've spent the last four months trying to force on us against consensus on one technicality or another. When it comes down to it, the reason we don't follow the MOS particularly closely is because you won't let us.
- So far you have said nothing constructive. Do you have a problem about publishing subsidary MoS documents in a place where everybody can be aware that they exist? I don't. If I have misunderstood the concept of publishing Manuals of Style, please give me some examples of what other groups do? Martinvl (talk) 20:32, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Which units to use and how to present them
At the moment MOSNUM deals with these two concerns in one subheading. I think it would be preferable to deal with them under two subheadings, one for which units to use and the other for how to present the units. Does anyone have any comments, suggestions or concerns about this proposal? Michael Glass (talk) 13:52, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
- Without you having given any reason for wanting to split that sub-section, I can only say that it is unnecessary. wjematherbigissue 14:28, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with Michael. Having two separate sections would be clearer for readers. That would also make unit usage a more important topic in the MOSNUM. Hopefully contributors will then use the correct units more carefully. Xionbox (talk) 16:16, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
In response to the comments and concerns expressed I agree with Xionbox that two separate sections would be clearer for readers and easier to follow. This by itself is a good reason to consider the change that I have proposed. However, I also acknowledge that I have not explained the reasons for making the changes clearly enough, and I apologise to the three other editors who couldn't see the point of making any change.
The main problem is that advice on both which units to use and how to present them are scattered. This is especially true of the advice on how to present the units. By gathering the them into the two subheadings we can appreciate the policy more clearly. The best way to demonstrate this is with the advice on how to present the units. In this case, the particular advice was spread in several sub-headings, and putting it together clarifies the policy.
I must emphasise that this is not a matter of adjusting or editing or changing the wording, it is simply to rearrange the dot points without changing them. Putting the policy advice in two headings: Which units to use and How to present the units may reveal a need for further editing but this is a separate question that can be dealt with now or later.
Here is what "How to present the units" would look like when they are gathered together:
- Avoid inconsistent usage. Write a 600-metre (2000 ft) hill with a 650-metre (2,100 ft) hill, not a 2,000-foot (610 m) hill with a 650-metre (2,100 ft) hill.
- Nominal and defined values should be given in the original units first, even if this makes the article inconsistent: for example, When the Republic of Ireland adopted the metric system, the road speed limit in built-up areas was changed from 30 miles per hour (48 km/h) to 50 kilometres per hour (31 mph). (The focus is on the change of units, not on the 3.6% increase.)
- When imperial units are different from US customary units, double conversions can be useful: The song's second verse reveals that Rosie weighs 19 stone (266 lb; 121 kg).
- Avoid ambiguous unit names (e.g., write imperial gallon or US gallon rather than gallon). Only in the rarest of instances should ambiguous units be used, such as in direct quotations, to preserve the accuracy of the quotation.
- Measurements should be accompanied by a proper citation of the source using a method described at the style guide for citation.
- Where footnoting or citing sources for values and units, identify both the source and the original units.
"Which units to use" could look as it is below, which follows the order in which the dot points appear in the present policy.
Apply these guidelines when choosing the "primary" unit for a measurement:
- Except in the cases mentioned below, put the units first that are in the most widespread use in the world. Usually, these are International System of Units (SI) units and non-SI units accepted for use with SI; but there are various exceptions for some measurements, such as years for long periods of time or the use of feet in describing the altitude of aircraft.
- For topics strongly associated with places, times or people, put the units most appropriate to them first.
- US articles generally put United States customary units first.
- UK articles more often put metric units first, but imperial units may be put first in some contexts. These include:
- Miles for distances, miles per hour for road speeds and miles per imperial gallon for fuel economy
- Feet/inches and stones/pounds for personal height and weight measurements
- Imperial pints for draught beer/cider
- See also Metrication in the United Kingdom and the Times Online style guide under "Metric"
- Articles concerning Commonwealth countries in Africa, Asia and Australasia generally put metric units first.
- In scientific articles, use the units employed in the current scientific literature on that topic. This will usually be SI, but not always; for example, natural units are often used in relativistic and quantum physics, and Hubble's constant should be quoted in its most common unit of (km/s)/Mpc rather than its SI unit of s−1.
- Some disciplines use units not approved by the BIPM, or write them differently from BIPM-prescribed format. When a clear majority of the sources relevant to those disciplines use such units, articles should follow this (e.g., using cc in automotive articles and not cm3). Such non-standard units are always linked on first use.
- Use familiar units rather than obscure units—do not write over the heads of the readership (e.g., a general-interest topic such as black holes would be best served by having mass expressed in solar masses, but it might be appropriate to use Planck units in an article on the mathematics of black hole evaporation).
- If editors cannot agree on the sequence of units, put the source value first and the converted value second. If the choice of units is arbitrary, use SI units as the main unit, with converted units in parentheses.
I hope that this answers the concerns that have been expressed. However, if there are any further comments or suggestions or concerns please let me know. Michael Glass (talk) 11:27, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think this is a good idea, because an editor who is placing a measurement in an article needs to know the whole story about what to write in one place. Also, the point about Rosie should be in the what units to use section, not the presentation section, since that point is instructing editors to use three units for one measurement. Jc3s5h (talk) 13:40, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Good point, but I think the problem here is with the expression "What units to use." The section under this heading deals with the question of what units to put first and those are the words that should be used. The reason is twofold: "put first" is accurate while "what units to use" is potentially misleading, because it can give people the impression that only metrics or only Imperial/customary units are used. As the guidelines are quite clear that both metric and the older measures are to be used in a wide variety of contexts we should be careful not to confuse the issue.
A second point is that we need the whole story in one place. The problem here is that there are too many things that should be in one place than there are places to put them together. The next best thing is to have the sections side by side, which is what would happen with these two sub-sections: What units to put first and How to present the units
Thank you for raising this point. Have you spotted any other unintended consequences that need to be dealt with? Michael Glass (talk) 14:23, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- (Postscript) I have also decided to put poor Rosie back in Unit conversions where she came from.Michael Glass (talk) 22:45, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Review of Manual of Style (dates and numbers)
This page is currently undergoing a review to ensure it forms a relevant and effective part of the Manual of Style. Please add review comments below along with notes of any improvement actions taken during the review.
"Manual of Style" or "Style Manual"?
Why use three words when two words would do? I propose that we change the names to Style Manual. Michael Glass (talk) 23:20, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Role within the MoS
Questions which may highlight issues. Does this page fulfil a recognized and necessary role within the MoS? Is there a role conflict with any other MoS page?
- Review comments
Relationship with other MoS pages
Questions which may highlight issues. Does this page have a clear identity in relation to other MoS pages? While a reader is obtaining guidance from this page, is it clear to the reader where to go for more general, and more specific, guidance related to its topic?
- Review comments
Effectiveness of guidance
Questions which may highlight issues. Is the prose clear and concise? Does the guidance given reflect consensus?
- Review comments
Size and structure
Questions which may highlight issues. Is this page too large to be manageable, or too small to be meaningful as a page in its own right? Should it be restructured? Should it be merged with another page?
- Review comments
Duplication of detail
Questions which may highlight issues. Is any detail here also present on any other MoS page? Are the two in step? Should the detail be confined to one place, and only summarized at the other? Should transclusion be considered?
- Review comments
- Some cases of duplication at same level of detail as main MoS. One example is the section on non-breaking spaces, but I think there are probably others. The main MoS should probably not repeat such detail, but provide a summary along with a link to this page. Currently the two are not in step regarding the nbsp detail. PL290 (talk) 21:11, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
- The same is true in regard to units of measurement. MOS and MOSNUM have policies that are almost identical but it would probably be better if there was only one policy. Michael Glass (talk) 03:43, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Other
- Review comments
- Canadian date formats. Currently the guide indicates both American and UK date formats are acceptable. That is not the case. The Government has a preferred short and long format as does the Canadian Press and most post-secondary institutions. The American long format is the format of preference. Short format is quickly converting to YYYY-MM-DD and occasionally YYYY-MMM-DD on government forms. The ambiguity of the policy has created lengthy debates on several articles within the Canada project. See Talk:Victoria Day for one recent example. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:21, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- These discussions were over whether the articles should have been converted from one format to another. They did not reflect a desire to re-open debate over what has been a long-standing consensus to accept both formats. --Ckatzchatspy 06:46, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- Agreed. That's why we need to set a single policy to avoid having people pick-and-choose (and wilfully change formats as was the case in both of the articles I have been working on) which is best. The idea that both US and UK formats are acceptable is not borne by fact but by a few pushy editors such as we have seen on those talk pages. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:50, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- These discussions were over whether the articles should have been converted from one format to another. They did not reflect a desire to re-open debate over what has been a long-standing consensus to accept both formats. --Ckatzchatspy 06:46, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- Well, that is your personal opinion; this discussion would suggest otherwise. --Ckatzchatspy 07:08, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- No an opinion would be "this is what I feel". My statement is that we need a single policy. My statement is that Month Day, Year is the format used by Canadian Press is a fact. That it's the format used by most universities is a fact. That it's the format used by the government is a fact. That you prefer Day Month Year is a fact (as you've gone on record). --Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:39, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- "We need to set a single policy to avoid having people pick-and-choose which is best" is your personal opinion, which the majority of editors disagreed with the last time something similar was brought up. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 15:53, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- I could see how you, as one of the problem editors who hides behind this ambiguity, would like it to remain ambiguous. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:08, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- Walter, please avoid such comments; you only weaken your argument by insulting other editors. --Ckatzchatspy 17:23, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- So you're commenting on the editor to tell me to stop commenting on the editor. Interesting. I merely pointed-out that MIESIANIACAL has used the wording of current policy to apply his preferred formatting. If any of this is libellous, please let me know, but it's all documented so what I'm saying is correct. It's certainly not an insult. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:03, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- Walter, please avoid such comments; you only weaken your argument by insulting other editors. --Ckatzchatspy 17:23, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- I could see how you, as one of the problem editors who hides behind this ambiguity, would like it to remain ambiguous. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:08, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- "We need to set a single policy to avoid having people pick-and-choose which is best" is your personal opinion, which the majority of editors disagreed with the last time something similar was brought up. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 15:53, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- No an opinion would be "this is what I feel". My statement is that we need a single policy. My statement is that Month Day, Year is the format used by Canadian Press is a fact. That it's the format used by most universities is a fact. That it's the format used by the government is a fact. That you prefer Day Month Year is a fact (as you've gone on record). --Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:39, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
What in the world is going here? We don't need yet another unclear and convoluted attempt at some kind of unneeded and uncessary reform, with template clutter on top of that! I won't archive this, but I'm removing that horrifying banner. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 12:04, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- It is necessary since there is a clear preference for one style and we are waffling on it because of a few vocal editors. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:39, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- If the SSG proposal was accepted the Canadian exception could be handled far better at least in my opinion Gnevin (talk) 15:11, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- To that end I would like to end the "perfectly acceptable" argument that has been used by both MIESIANIACAL and Ckatz when debating the Victoria Day format change. I would like to create a list of institutions in Canada where the American format is acceptable and where the U.K. format is acceptable. We would simply provide links to their standards so that evidence and not personal opinion of what is and isn't acceptable can be presented. Where would a good place to create a page or sub-page be? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:03, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- Depending on length .Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(Canada-related_articles) or Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(Canada-related_articles)/dates if very long Gnevin (talk) 21:05, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- Before it goes "live", it should be hashed out on the talk page. Given what has been expressed so far, I'm really not comfortable with such a list being written straight into the guideline. --Ckatzchatspy 22:15, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see your comfort as being a guideline for Wikipedia, but I understand your concern. I don't think anything is being taken "live". This is simply a list to indicate what current date formats are accepted in Canada. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:45, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- Before it goes "live", it should be hashed out on the talk page. Given what has been expressed so far, I'm really not comfortable with such a list being written straight into the guideline. --Ckatzchatspy 22:15, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- Depending on length .Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(Canada-related_articles) or Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(Canada-related_articles)/dates if very long Gnevin (talk) 21:05, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- To that end I would like to end the "perfectly acceptable" argument that has been used by both MIESIANIACAL and Ckatz when debating the Victoria Day format change. I would like to create a list of institutions in Canada where the American format is acceptable and where the U.K. format is acceptable. We would simply provide links to their standards so that evidence and not personal opinion of what is and isn't acceptable can be presented. Where would a good place to create a page or sub-page be? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:03, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- If the SSG proposal was accepted the Canadian exception could be handled far better at least in my opinion Gnevin (talk) 15:11, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- Before another MoS holy war gets rolling too far, a few facts:
- Strong consensus from a recent straw poll at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Canada-related articles)#Date format: Towards consistency: M D Y or D M Y ? backs the existing WP:DATEVAR statement on Canadian subjects;
- Mu (negative). That was short format. We are discussing long format.
- Walter Görlitz's statements about "The American long format is the format of preference" is one big [citation needed] and debatable as follows...
- Already given at talk:Victoria Day. Preference by Canadian Press.
- Government usage is demonstrably inconsistent - while American formats are seen, international formats are also frequently seen at such sites as Environment Canada, PM, CRTC, DND
- Mu (negative) again. Short format, yes. Long format never.
- Other style guides such as The Canadian Style accept both long formats [2]
- Finally a salient point.
- Newspaper-based styles such as the Canadian Press guides should not be considered reliable nor be given much weight - Wikipedia is not a newspaper for one thing, and Canadian newspapers actually used American spelling until the 1990s (The Globe and Mail began the trend away from that in October 1990);
- While not a newspaper, newspapers use style guides and hence it does apply here.
- Academic usage is not consistent e.g. UVic; University of Toronto Press books tend to avoid American format;
- In conclusion, the "preference" is debatable, various date formats have usage in Canada, there is no evidence that the edit wars are a pandemic (at least not beyond a few indicated cases), and consensus does not support any changes to the existing WP:DATEVAR/WP:RETAIN statements with respect to Canadian subjects. Dl2000 (talk) 01:41, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
- Edit wars are not the issue. Editors going in and changing the format and then stating that it should not be changed citing MoS and other issues is. There is no harm in discussing it provided that it doesn't become a holy war or VHS/Beta or Windows/Mac/Linux battle. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:53, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Proposal to remove that ugly and useless "MOS Review" box
Since we can't do anything without getting bogged down in Bureaucracy, here a formal proposal to remove that useless template ({{DocumentHistory}} and related). Alternatively, we could just send this to TfD. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 21:34, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- Support: As proposer. This serves no purpose whatsoever, other than to clutter the page with yet-another useless banner. This "MOS review process" has been cooked up in 30 seconds by a single user. Pages history templates are for well-defined process. If you want to know the history of the MOSNUM, click on "history", and browse the archives. There's no point in documenting the "status history" of a page as a guideline/policy/essay/etc... Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 21:33, 2 June 2010 (UTC)