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Deprecated spellings
I would like to suggest that we add a sentence or two explicitly describing the deprecated spellings that are not to be used. This is an integral part of both Revised Hepburn (which we've already established as a standard) and of the modern Japanese lanugage itself, but I think it might be good to spell it out, just so we have something to point to when it's done wrong.
Among the inappropriate spellings are the "kwa" and "gwa" in Kwannon and Hongwanji and the "ye" in Yedo and Iyemon (Iemon, a character in Yotsuya Kaidan).
There are exceptions, of course, such as those books and movies most well known as Kwaidan rather than Kaidan, and the beer Yebisu which continues to be spelled that way on the labels and other official contexts. But these are few and far between.
This should hopefully *crosses fingers* not be controversial. Thanks. LordAmeth 18:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
- I hate to mention this, but... "Common usage" in English should be given some weight as well, not just modern Japanese pronunciation. For example, "Hongwanji" is the official spelling used by most modern Hongwanji organizations throughout the world. See this Nishi Hongwanji website by the Jodo Shinshu.
- However old temples such as Hongan-ji are perhaps appropriately named as you say, although I would redirect Hongwanji to either Jodo Shinshu or Hongan-ji.--Endroit 18:30, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
- Having said all that, I believe LordAmeth is generally on the right track. I believe that this rule should have a condition: "...unless the un-deprecated spelling is the official one or is significantly more common".--Endroit 19:08, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
- Absolutely. I just thought it would be a good thing to have spelled out explicitly so that I can either make moves and consider them uncontested, or point to the rule quoted when I request for potentially contested moves. LordAmeth 19:59, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
- There are also a couple of universities, e.g. Kwansei Gakuin and Kwassai. Japanese people who emigrated and spell their family names as the emigrant did, such as Inouye. Didn't something recently come up about some island? And living in Japan it's hard to overlook the yen!
- Again, these are the "few and far between" that LordAmeth mentioned. I hope we don't get into individual battles over what's official, but that concern is irrelevant to the proposal. I support it.
- There's no harm in mentioning archaic spellings that were formerly standard in English so that readers of old texts will be able to make the connection between present and past spellings. But if the intent of the proposal is to avoid listing every spelling that has ever been used, I'm all for it. I think the proposal should be made more specific, though, to distinguish between the spelling we use (in titles and body text) and alternative spellings that were once standard (like Iyeyasu or Uyeno). Fg2 20:54, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
- I concur. LordAmeth 08:32, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- If "kwa" of "gwa" is the formerly standard form and w-less spelling is the modern one, the latter would be a deprecated form. The dropping of the bilabial semivowel could be explained as deprecation, but it would be restoration if we start from the modern form. Kmns tsw 22:07, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
BCE/CE vs. BC/AD use in articles
I think we need to add something to the MOS-JA which indicates which of these should be used. I personally don't care one way or the other because, IMHO, they both mean the same thing and one is just trying to be more politically correct. So, let's discuss this. Which should we use in Japan-related articles? ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 21:15, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
- If a single term is to be used, I would say that BC/AD should be used mostly for the reason that it's the most prevalent term already used amongst Japanese articles at the moment (e.g. Japan, History of Japan, etc). Changing them all to BCE/CE would be political-correctness gone mad IMHO - WP:MOS indicates that BC/AD is fine to use. John Smith's 21:19, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think we should override WP:MoS. Editors make the choice when they create articles. Fg2 21:26, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
- One is not overriding WP:MOS by deciding on a general use policy to make articles in the same area consistent. If you simply don't want to have a general use policy say so - but don't try to claim this goes against MOS when MOS doesn't go into consistency across articles. I actually raised this (consistency across articles) on the MOS talk page a while ago - there was a discussion about it, but no "oh, you can't do that" reaction. John Smith's 21:34, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't think there's any need to give specific Japan-related guidance on something that is fully covered by the MOS. I also understand it has been discussed at some length there, causing lots of bitterness, before ending with the conclusion that editors are free to choose which style they want on any one page. Fg2 is right, you should not override the MOS. Foula 17:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- See this Yahoo Japan dictionary entry for "BCE" (in Japanese). It says BCE is mainly used in the United States. Therefore, I suggest NOT using "BCE/CE" AT ALL unless the topic is restricted to the United States. At least, always use "BC/AD" for any Japan-related topics, and never "BCE/CE". I would support an entry to WP:MOS-JA to that effect.--Endroit 19:31, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know why it should cause any bitterness. That seems a bit extreme when talking about something like this. And many language-specific MOS here have more specific guidelines about some points of usage. The whole point of WP:JA and WP:MOS-JA is make all Japan-related articles consistent. Specifying which one of these dating formats should generally be used is part of that, IMHO. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:09, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Related matter
- A related matter has come up regarding History of Japan. There are two discussions here and here. John Smith's 14:46, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
"Kanji" vs "Chinese characters"
Which term, "kanji" or "Chinese characters", is preferred for Japan-related articles? Should there be a mention of preference in MOS/Japan? My feeling is "kanji" is preferable, as it's more accurate and less cumbersome, and it should be wiki-linked so a reader unfamiliar with the term can look it up. It's essentially a technical term which is appropriate to use in the context of articles talking about a particular field (ie Japan). Also, it can be more technically correct, as "Chinese characters" can refer to simplified or traditional, or to characters whose meaning has changed between Chinese and Japanese (compare "好" in Japanese meaning "like", in Chinese meaning "good").
The opposite argument is that "Chinese character" is more accessible and easily understood by the average reader, who shouldn't have to check meanings of terms used to understand an article. So, is "kanji" accepted as a word which has entered the English language yet?
I'm asking here because I'm having an attack of guilt after changing an editor's choice of "Chinese characters" to "kanji" in an article, but realised that the same issue may come up in any Japan related article and that it might be desirable to have a common usage across the board. --DrHacky 15:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- You should generally use "kanji" in Japan-related articles as that is the Japanese word for "Chinese characters". If you link to the article kanji in the first instance of use in an article, then people will be able to figure things out. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Volcanoes
Hello. I would like to start several stubs about Japanese volcanoes, to kill redlinks in List of volcanoes in Japan. All Indonesian and almost all Russian volcanoes have already their articles.
Point is, I don't know if there is any naming convention for Japanese mountains. How should I, e.g., name this: [1] volcano? Suwanosejima, Suwanose-jima or maybe just Suwanose? Same with -yama suffix [2], and -dake suffix [3]. I guess I should name X-yama article as Mount X. Please, help. Thanks. - Darwinek 12:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
- Hi Darwinek, the list of volcanoes includes several with jima in the article title, including, as it turns out, one that I started. Nearly all are written as one word with no hyphen, like Sakurajima. The exception is Iwo Jima. So I'd suggest Suwanosejima.
- The island has the same name. Its article in the Japanese Wikipedia is at ja:諏訪之瀬島. Articles on volcanoes whose names are the same as islands seem to not have "Mount" in the title. The article could as well be about the island as about the mountain. There's a red link, though, for Mount Kirishima. I think this is the only shima with "Mount" in the article in its title. (Mount Kirishima ja:霧島山 is a mountain but as far as I know not also an island; its name is Kirishima-yama.)
- Those are some existing articles, but the titles could be changed if the community wants a different style. Fg2 12:45, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Apostrophes to distinguish ei and e'i and ii and i'i
SJones seems to disagree with my use of apostrophes in the following Death Note character:
- Eiichi Takahashi (鷹橋 鋭一 Takahashi Ei'ichi)
I had the apostrophe placed to distinguish Ei-i-chi from E-ii-chi (As in LOC Hepburn, Ei is "double e" and ii is "double i")
What should the MOS say about apostrophes to distinguish ii and ei? WhisperToMe 23:12, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- In my opinion, we should specify not using apostrophes for that distinction. The kana are the same. Even without apostrophes, Hepburn gives the correct kana. Hepburn doesn't (and can't) get to the kanji level.
- Note the difference between this and the apostrophe after syllabic n. The latter is necessary to distinguish (for example) the kana n'i (んい) from ni (に), as in zen'i (善意, ぜんい) and zeni (銭, ぜに). Hepburn easily distinguishes the kana. Fg2 23:43, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- I am totally not sure if Eiichi should be Ei'ichi or not. Any comments or objections? Greg Jones II 23:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- I am totally confused with the use of apostrophes. If an agreement is made here, we will put the apostrophe back in Eiichi. Greg Jones II 23:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- Also, according to Nique1287, on WhisperToMe's talk page, the Japanese Dictionary Server says that the kanji in question, 鋭, becomes エイ, not エエ. Greg Jones II 23:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- No apostrophe necessary. Kana reading remains the same regardless. Doceirias 00:13, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- The Hepburn system we use is not really based on the kana reading - We use macrons (and do not distinguish between o-o and o-u as long as both make the long o sound. WhisperToMe 00:54, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- Good point. The name spelled Eiichi already conveys the separation; if it was one sound, it would be Eīchi. Doceirias 01:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- The usage of macron i is only permitted with foreign names with Hepburn. According to the Hepburn romanization Wikipedia page...
- Good point. The name spelled Eiichi already conveys the separation; if it was one sound, it would be Eīchi. Doceirias 01:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
"In words of Japanese or Chinese origin, the long vowel i is written ii."
Since I believe this is what we are using on here, this is why the distinction is made... WhisperToMe 01:07, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- Because the distinction is irrelevant with Japanese words. Doceirias 02:15, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
To be honest, I do not ever disagree with WhisperToMe's use of apostrophes in the following Death Note character:
- Eiichi Takahashi (鷹橋 鋭一 Takahashi Ei'ichi)
Greg Jones II 00:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Just my two cents--the distinction seems unnecessary. CES 01:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with all those who've said that the apostrophes are totally unnecessary. LordAmeth 02:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- No version of modified Hepburn of which I am aware uses an apostrophe in the manner being discussed here. Therefore, I disagree with the use as discussed here, and WP:MOS-JA doesn't support this. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- It happens sometimes - I.E. http://www.businessweek.com/adsections/sun/heroes/content.html refers to a guy as "Kei-ichi Enoki" (Except with a "-" instead of a "'") - I will see if I can find more examples. WhisperToMe 07:01, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- EDIT: NTT Docomo also refers to the guy as "Kei-ichi" http://www.nttdocomo.com/pr/2004/001174.html WhisperToMe 07:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Anyway, to prove this practice is common, Google "Kei'ichi" http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Kei%27ichi%22&hl=en&safe=active&start=10&sa=N - It brings hits showing "kei'ichi" OR "Kei-ichi" WhisperToMe 07:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed, it does happen. But Google searches the whole Internet, and shows us everyone's style. Our job is to select a coherent style for romanization. I see the apostrophe as akin to the dash, which the Chicago Manual of Style advises to use "sparingly." I interpret that to mean "don't make a rule of it." Fg2 07:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Also, here's one for "Ei'ichiro" http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=active&q=%22Ei%27ichiro%22&btnG=Search WhisperToMe 07:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think all of these examples are simply examples of clueless news organizations who just go along with the first thing that looks "foreign" to them. I still don't think it's part of any version of modified Hepburn I've ever seen, despite the cluelessness of some news organizations. And relying on the Japanese to come up with a standard romanization scheme will leave you waiting until pigs fly under their own power. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 07:12, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- So, where should I look to find an example of this? Yes, the "e'i" and "i'i" forms are used in perhaps a "modified" form (the examples above are not the only ones, and I will see if I can find more) - Is there a source that details every single rule of the U. S. Library of Congress (or another standard variant) Hepburn romanization system? I would like to see it and check to see if it addresses the issue. WhisperToMe 07:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think all of these examples are simply examples of clueless news organizations who just go along with the first thing that looks "foreign" to them. I still don't think it's part of any version of modified Hepburn I've ever seen, despite the cluelessness of some news organizations. And relying on the Japanese to come up with a standard romanization scheme will leave you waiting until pigs fly under their own power. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 07:12, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Other examples of "modified Hepburn":
- The book's second author is credited as "Kei-ichi Maeda" http://assets.cambridge.org/97805218/11590/cover/9780521811590.jpg
- This Juniata College professor refers to himself as "Ei-Ichiro Ochiai" http://faculty.juniata.edu/ochiai/
- A University of Tsukuba report published in the Oxford Press refers to a "Ei-ichiro Takaoka" - http://jjco.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/36/1/60.pdf
WhisperToMe 07:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- Again, I think it's important to recognize that the use of the apostrophe that has been proposed has as its purpose to indicate the break between kanji. There is no need to do this. Hepburn does not write Ta'naka or Toyo'hashi so there is no need to write Kei'ichi. The kana are the same whether we include the apostrophe or omit it. Kanji don't take macrons over an e or an i (except for extremely rare Western readings like 頁 (pēji) so the break between kanji is irrelevant to the discussion. Fg2 07:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- So, my question is: How are the ei and ii cases different from the cases of distinguishing hiragana o-u (forming ō) from separate characters that have o-u (As in Takenouchi, Jonouchi) ? The hiragana for ō and o-u are the same, yet Hepburn distinguishes those two forms (while not distinguishing between ōs formed from o-o and ōs formed from o-u) WhisperToMe 07:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- If there is a kanji break between the "o" and "u", then you should romanize it as "ou". WP:MOS-JA already covers this. An example of this is Narumi Kakinouchi (垣野内 成美), where the family name kanji are "kaki" (垣) "no" (野) "uchi" (内), so the family name is romanized "Kakinouchi". ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
What I meant was, since kanji breaks between o and u are recognized in the romanization system, why should the kanji breaks between an "i" and an "i" be un-recognized? Is it because there are few characters that have "ii" ? IMO, the way to solve this is to find out if the Hepburn system used by the Library of Congress details how it treats kanji breaks for i's. I'll contact the LOC and ask about the issue. WhisperToMe 01:37, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
EDIT: I used this http://www.loc.gov/rr/askalib/ to ask the question to the LOC Librarian.
If the LOC Hepburn does NOT specify what to do in this case, the Wikipedians here should decide whether to include the apostrophe.
If it DOES specify, I would add content to the "Hepburn romanization" article. WhisperToMe 01:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- Exactly how are they not being recognized? I don't understand what you mean by "recognized" anyway. We wouldn't (and don't) write "Kakino-uchi" for 垣野内, so why would we write "Ei-ichirō" (or "Ei-ichiro-u", for that matter). The WP:MOS-JA specifically says to avoid unnecessary hyphenation, and this is certainly unnecessary. Just because some Japanese choose to romanize their names in an unorthodox fashion doesn't mean we have to go along with it. There are tons of romanizations used in Japan, and we can't be using a crazy hodge-podge of them here or there will be all kinds of confusion. We've settled on a modified version of Hepburn to use here, and adding things which aren't in any version of Hepburn doesn't make any sense. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 02:43, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- Hmm, looks like I remembered incorrectly on the "avoid unnecessary hyphenation" being in the MOS-JA, but I know it's been discussed before and that's what was determined. I'll have to see if I can find it in the archives. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 02:48, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- Oi, I can tell I'm tired. In my comments above, I meant to talk about unnecessary apostrophes, but somehow got switched around to hyphens. Regardless, we should be avoiding unnecessary apostrophes as well. The only time an apostrophe is really necessary is identifying a syllabic "n" in the middle of a word when it is followed by a vowel. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 02:57, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- What I mean is that there is a difference between (ou) and o)(u - And it is reflected as ō and ou, respectively. "We wouldn't (and don't) write "Kakino-uchi" for 垣野内" - Correct because o+u in one character is written as ō, NOT ou. However, remember that double i HAS to be romanized as "ii" (unless the word is NOT of Japanese or Chinese origin). So, what I mean is, why does the romanization system not have to distinguish (ii) from i)(i when it has to distinguish (ou) from o)(u ? WhisperToMe 03:37, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- Because o+u and ō are pronounced differently? ii is pronounced as one sound in adjectives only. It would be pronounced separately everywhere else. (That I can think of now. If there are exceptions, they are so scarce as to be negligible.) Doceirias 05:09, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I've watched the first Yu-Gi-Oh! anime series in Japanese. Yugi pronounces Katsuya Jonouchi's name almost as if it is "Jō - nō - chi" (I don't hear a "u") - I know the name is properly romanized as Jōnouchi, but I am just repeating how I hear "o)(u" combinations pronounced. WhisperToMe 05:17, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- I would say that's a problem with your hearing (long vs short vowels and double consonants take years to hear reliably) or the actor's diction, and not really bearing on the point here, which is that sticking an apostrophe between two iis is completely unnecessary. Doceirias 05:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I've watched the first Yu-Gi-Oh! anime series in Japanese. Yugi pronounces Katsuya Jonouchi's name almost as if it is "Jō - nō - chi" (I don't hear a "u") - I know the name is properly romanized as Jōnouchi, but I am just repeating how I hear "o)(u" combinations pronounced. WhisperToMe 05:17, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- Because o+u and ō are pronounced differently? ii is pronounced as one sound in adjectives only. It would be pronounced separately everywhere else. (That I can think of now. If there are exceptions, they are so scarce as to be negligible.) Doceirias 05:09, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
It seems likely, then, that the LOC would romanize without "'"s - I will let you know what the person at the LOC help desk tells me. I also asked for a source which explains the romanization. If the LOC does not address this issue at all, then it seems that we should drop the apostrophes with the i's and e's. WhisperToMe 05:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- As a dense non-linguist, I'm probably way out of line here; but wouldn't the analog between ou (which we romanize as ō) and o)(u (which we romanize as ou) be ī and ii (not, ii and i'i)? I don't see any reason to include apostrophes, when it is a macron that you need to be looking for. If it were only adjectives, then, we have very little reason to be adding adjectival endings to words in the English wikipedia as it were. But, I think 新潟 and other similar names also use a longer ii sound. Neier 07:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- Niigata (and 新 generally when read nii) is a good example of a double-duration 'i' sound in a single kanji. Again, there's no need to distinguish it from two 'i' sounds in adjacent kanji or kana, such as Kii Peninsula (紀伊半島, adjacent kanji) or atarashii (新しい, adjacent kana). Hepburn simply doesn't distinguish them. All are written with the letter "i" repeated, not a single "i" with a macron. Fg2 07:38, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- Argh, I knew I was forgetting one. Doceirias 08:33, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, it all comes down to this: I'm opposed to using unnecessary apostrophes and hyphens (since I brought that up) when romanizing Japanese here on Wikipedia. I can see no valid reason to adopt a rarely-used (really, it is rare) romanization option like this. I'd also support adding a line to the MOS-JA to that effect (don't use unnecessary and excessive apostrophes and hyphens). ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 08:17, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- I should clarify, I'm against the apostrophes and hyphens in principle. I was only mentioning that for consistency, we should be debating ī vs ii; not ii vs i'i. I feel the same way against ī/ii as I do against ii/i'i; but, at least it would match the rest of our vowels. Neier 08:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- Wow, there's one I'd oppose too. O-macron and u-macron mean something different in English than in Hepburn, but the difference is duration. In contrast, a-macron has a radically different sound in English than a double-duration 'a' in Hepburn. The letter "a" has various pronunciations, of which the vowel sound in "ate" is one and that in "ah" is another. But a-macron has only the sound that's in "ate." Putting a macron in the Japanese word aato meaning "art" (that is, writing āto) tells the reader to use the vowel sound in "ate." That's the wrong sound (and still the wrong duration). The e-macron and i-macron have similar problems. So while writing o-macron or u-macron at least gives the uninitiated reader a chance to get the sound right, even if the duration comes out wrong, writing a-macron, e-macron or i-macron gets nothing right. It has no advantages, and one major disadvantage, over ordinary two-macron Hepburn. Consistency in writing vowels (that is, macrons for all double-duration vowels) is less important than conveying some idea of pronunciation to uninitiated readers (which I take to be a basic principle of Hepburn systems). Fg2 10:50, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- I had considerable difficulty in understanding that last comment. Fg2, I think you're saying that the dwindling number of English-English dictionaries that use traditional lexicographic or proprietary systems to show pronunciation (as opposed to using IPA) often use macrons as part of this, and that the pronunciation of the English word "late" may be represented as "lāt". All right. But your comment Putting a macron in the Japanese word aato meaning "art" (that is, writing āto) tells the reader to use the vowel sound in "ate." That's the wrong sound (and still the wrong duration). seems bizarre. Writing āto may suggest to the slow-witted reader that this is pronounced like the vowel sound in the English word "late." That would indeed be the wrong sound -- duration is by the way, as English isn't syllable-timed -- but we trust that an adult or adolescent reader will have had at least some exposure to some other language and will realize that, globally, "a" is not so often used to represent /ei/. Also, we have conspicuous links to an article that simply explains how to pronounce Hepburn. So if we're going to use Hepburn, I see nothing wrong with using ā, ē, or ī. (Incidentally, I think Hepburn sucks, but I don't want to say much about that: doing so might wake our mattya-drinking chum.) -- Hoary 11:40, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- Ha! You're probably right. I'm getting old... . Fg2 12:16, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- Let's try out 衆議院議院運営委員会 in a couple of systems. Wikipedia Hepburn: shūgiingiin'un'eiiinkai; apostrophe modification: shūgi'ingi'in'un'ei'i'inkai; macron modification: shūgīngīn'uneiīnkai (I'm just having fun here.) Fg2 06:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I started writing redirects regarding this (i.e. Ki'i Peninsula and Ki-i Peninsula now redirect to Kii Peninsula) - I still have not received an answer from the LOC librarian regarding this. Once we get the answer (the librarian will probably say to write the name "Eiichi") - The document explaining this will be used as a source to explain Wikipedia's convention WhisperToMe 21:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
While we are at it, I also noticed that some people use apostrophe's to differentiate between n's in adjacent kanji (i.e. Sen'nin) and sokuon-n (I do not know any examples of sokuon-n) - Should I ask the librarian about this as well? WhisperToMe 21:04, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- This all seems unnecessary, especially those redirects. Google has only 30 hits for both "Ki-i peninsula" and "Ki-i peninsula" ... those redirects make no sense from either a practical or linguistic standpoint. The apostrophe in words like sen'nin is completely redundant as well. Why make more work for ourselves by adding unnecessary diacritics? CES 23:32, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- It's not so much the number of the hits as the authors that prompts redirects.
For instance, Nara Prefectural Government is hosting this document [4] - Yes, it can be argued that Nara's choice to use the marks is screwy, but nethertheless it is a sometimes-used variant, and so a redirect should be made. Also, Camrbidge University has some document mentioning "Ki'i" hosted, but I only see the abstract of it, as the university wants payment for access to the full document. I am willing to make as many redirects as I can, by the way, so I do not see this as a waste of time for myself. WhisperToMe 00:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- And why make more work for LOC librarians? -- Hoary 23:39, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- Because Wikipedia asks people to cite sources. See, I want to explain these modified forms of Hepburn on the Hepburn romanization article as well as craft policy for MOS-JA. Besides, it would be good to have sources for details of Hepburn. WhisperToMe 00:21, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not convinced that a few very rare cases of unconventional usage by a handful of non-linguists (like local government officials and anime fans) merit description as "modified forms of Hepburn". Unlike zen'i and zeni, which are two different words pronounced two different ways, there is no difference in meaning, pronunciation, or otherwise between "Eiichi" and "Ei'ichi" or "Kii" and "Ki'i". The point of using apostrophes in the n'i/ni case is more than just noting "kanji breaks", otherwise we'd have romanizations like Jun'ichi'rō and Hok'kai'dō. As others have noted, if anything, this debate should be about Kii versus Kī, not Kii versus Ki'i. But that's not a debate I'd really enjoy starting, personally ... CES 03:12, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- What about university professors and writers of university publications, as had been displayed above? (Here is one: [5] and another [6]) I have NEVER seen "Jun'ichi'rō" "Hok'kai'dō" - The only reason why anyone would use the apostrophe's is to disambiguate i)(i and (ii) - And if that is deemed not necessary, simply redirect from the apostrophed forms. WhisperToMe 03:55, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- In a way, it is about "Kii versus Kī" - Because "Kī" CANNOT be used in Hepburn, the forms debated are "Kii versus Ki'i" - Either all words should look like "Kii" OR the apostophes should disambiguate, because "Kī" is not an option for Hepburn. WhisperToMe 04:03, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- I've long since lost track of what you're trying to accomplish. The issue simply doesn't exist. All words should and do look like Kii. Doceirias 04:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- What I am trying to accomplish changed (After I saw consensus) - If it should (and does) look like Kii, then the other (less common) forms should redirect. WhisperToMe 04:25, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Doceirias, I've lost the point of this discussion. If you are simply making redirects, then I see no problem per se ... we all need hobbies ... but to me it seems about as pointless as redirecting all pages to, say, their JSL or Kunreishiki equivalent. At least in that case they are established romanization schemes unlike this e'i business. If you are not proposing a MoS policy change, can we consider this discussion closed? CES 11:35, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I want a line in the MOS that at least addresses this (and states to not insert dashes or apostrophes to distinguish i)(i and (ii). Is this fine, CES? (And, if you wish, add a similar line about n)(n and (sokuon)n, stating not to insert apostrophes and dashes in that case) WhisperToMe 13:50, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
EDIT: SJones added the line for it :) - Thank you! - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_%28Japan-related_articles%29&curid=345326&diff=152245813&oldid=149718818 WhisperToMe 14:01, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- If it makes things more explicit for users who might be confused on this issue, then sure, why not. I was just trying to figure out what exactly the point of contention was ... I personally have not run across romanizations like Ki-i and Ei'ichi (and Google counts indicate that these variants range from rare to extremely rare) but if they're out there on Wikipedia we should attempt to remove them. Be careful when creating redirects, as some of these words (Ki'i comes to mind) mean something in other languages. CES 14:40, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
This is from the librarian: "According to the ALA-LC Romanization Tables: Transliteration Schemes for Non-Roman Scripts, approved by the Library of Congress and the American Library Association, it should be Eiichi." - The case is closed, folks! :) - The consensus here is clear and the message is clear: Do not distinguish between i)(i and (ii)
And this is our Hepburn source. This will be used for the Hepburn romanization article: http://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/roman.html
"Library of Congress, and American Library Association. 1997. ALA-LC Romanization Tables: Transliteration Schemes for Non-Roman Scripts. Washington: Cataloging Distribution Service, Library of Congress."
WhisperToMe 15:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think "ii" is not the point. I, as a native Japanese, agree that ii, i'i and ī are the same in pronunciation. But ei and e'i are different. In Japanese, the kana "えい" has two defferent pronunciation.
- In words of chinese origin: /eː/
- In any other words: /eɪ/
- So making them distinguishable is at least not unnecessary. If you do so, possible option will be "ei and e'i" or "ē and ei". -いかづち(ikadzuchi)-Squeak 11:17, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- It would be difficult to think of an adequate pair of words contrastively containg the one, a dual i and the other, a long i. But how do you think the case of ビー玉 (marbles of play). I feel as a native Japanese it has a long i, which is different from the dual i in 榮一.Kmns tsw 02:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
MOS-AM
Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Anime- and manga-related articles) has been created to help organize all anime- and manga-related style issues in one spot and to keep the WP:ANIME page from becoming more crowded. Please come participate in discussions if you wish. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)