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::::::I guess your lifelong personal experience in that department gives you insight. Might want to refrain from the PAs, they'll only add to your list of disruptions, as I foresee the day your disruptions are all listed on AN/I. Be a fair few British eyes on there ready to throw the book at you, me laddo. Don't tempt fate. '''[[User:MarcusBritish|<font color="#003399">Ma<font color="#CC0000">®©</font>usBr<font color="#CC0000">iti</font>sh</font>''']] <sup>[[[User talk:MarcusBritish|Chat]] • [[WP:RDP|RFF]]]</sup>''' 20:11, 12 December 2011 (UTC) |
::::::I guess your lifelong personal experience in that department gives you insight. Might want to refrain from the PAs, they'll only add to your list of disruptions, as I foresee the day your disruptions are all listed on AN/I. Be a fair few British eyes on there ready to throw the book at you, me laddo. Don't tempt fate. '''[[User:MarcusBritish|<font color="#003399">Ma<font color="#CC0000">®©</font>usBr<font color="#CC0000">iti</font>sh</font>''']] <sup>[[[User talk:MarcusBritish|Chat]] • [[WP:RDP|RFF]]]</sup>''' 20:11, 12 December 2011 (UTC) |
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::::::You started with the PAs, anyone can scroll through your comments and see that. Work away, list all my "disruptions" on AN/I, typical of the bullying tactics yourself and other like-minded editors employ. [[User:Sheodred|Sheodred]] ([[User talk:Sheodred|talk]]) 20:25, 12 December 2011 (UTC) |
::::::You started with the PAs, anyone can scroll through your comments and see that. Work away, list all my "disruptions" on AN/I, typical of the bullying tactics yourself and other like-minded editors employ. [[User:Sheodred|Sheodred]] ([[User talk:Sheodred|talk]]) 20:25, 12 December 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::::Bullying! LOL, now you're a comedian! Like to see you substantiate that claim, though. '''[[User:MarcusBritish|<font color="#003399">Ma<font color="#CC0000">®©</font>usBr<font color="#CC0000">iti</font>sh</font>''']] <sup>[[[User talk:MarcusBritish|Chat]] • [[WP:RDP|RFF]]]</sup>''' 20:29, 12 December 2011 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 20:29, 12 December 2011
Famous 'Irish' people
I have been looking over the biographical articles of some famous people born in Northern Ireland. They are, without exception, described as being Irish. Since this carries political overtones not easy to ignore, mightn't it be better to do a wholesale review of the situation? Being Northern Irish myself, there are elements of national disenfranchisement to this that make me rather uncomfortable. I'm also an academic studying Northern Irish literature, and seeing Seamus Heaney described as 'Irish' certainly raises my eyebrows as well of those of my colleagues (particularly since Derek Mahon, Paul Muldoon and Michael Longley are described as Northern Irish). Other individuals who ought to be looked at: Stephen Rea, Louis MacNeice (a particularly egregious example), Terry George, Brian Friel, Ciaran Hinds, Liam Neeson (who manages to be described as Irish in the same phrase in which his OBE is mentioned), etc, etc. Is there a policy in place which covers this situation, and which might go some way to preventing further terminological inexactitudes? Or will we have to create one?BlackMarlin (talk) 17:08, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- Being born in Northern Ireland doesn't make one Northern Irish and that is the case for Seamus Heaney for one, who identifies himself as Irish (see page 78). Bjmullan (talk) 17:25, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- Technically your wrong Bjmullan. He is Northern Irish in the sense of a toponym, which simply means where someone is from without any overtones of citizenship or nationality.
- There is an unwritten rule of thumb which works fairly well for most articles in regards to this issue (especially amongst UK citizens) - go with self-identification if there is an issue over it. If someone self-identifies as something then it should be assumed that is how they want themselves to be seen. If Seamus Heaney self-identifies as Irish and nothing else, then he is Irish, if someone says they are Northern Irish then they are Northern Irish, if someone says British then British. Fair enough compromise even though it flies in the face of UK nationality law. Unfortunately it doesn't solve the issue of someone who self-identifies as several things...
- I also wouldn't worry about the OBE, Bob Geldof has a KBE but is still Irish. Mabuska (talk) 21:14, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- While we're on the subject BlackMarlin another of your examples, Liam Neeson, is also Irish. Not sure if the is technical Irish or just Irish Irish. Perhaps you should just stick to literature, in the literal sense. Bjmullan (talk) 21:41, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- Bjmullan i'd suggest you read WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL as there was no call for the remark at the end of your comment. Anyways i already discussed the Liam Neeson example (what other example above has an OBE?), along with the self-identification rule of thumb, so how exactly your raising "another" of BlackMarlin's examples i don't know. Mabuska (talk) 22:42, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- While we're on the subject BlackMarlin another of your examples, Liam Neeson, is also Irish. Not sure if the is technical Irish or just Irish Irish. Perhaps you should just stick to literature, in the literal sense. Bjmullan (talk) 21:41, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- Might I point out to there is a part of the Good Friday Agreement saying in effect that if people in Northern Ireland want to describe themselves as Irish or British or both or to hold either or both citizenships then they will be respected as such by the two governments. Dmcq (talk) 23:09, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- Essentially the self-identification rule of thumb. Mabuska (talk) 10:27, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- And once this Ireland title business quietens down I'd like to propose the same sort of thing applies to Derry/Londonderry in references from articles. It's daft referring to Derry if all the citations for a biography say Londonderry. Dmcq (talk) 12:18, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- No it isn't Fmph (talk) 15:04, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- It is daft. The only problem with Dmcq's suggestion that would arise though is warring between editors with their textbooks claiming one says one or the other and abusing Google books in an attempt to outweigh the other. Though it would work well in many instances such a quotes. Mabuska (talk) 22:39, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- No it isn't Fmph (talk) 15:04, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- And once this Ireland title business quietens down I'd like to propose the same sort of thing applies to Derry/Londonderry in references from articles. It's daft referring to Derry if all the citations for a biography say Londonderry. Dmcq (talk) 12:18, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- Essentially the self-identification rule of thumb. Mabuska (talk) 10:27, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Thanks everyone. Bjmullan, Helen Vendler's position is one that is contrary to the bulk of critical opinion on the matter - I would refer you to Edna Longley's 'Poetry in the Wars', Terence Brown's 'Northern Voices: Poetry from Ulster', Clair Wills' 'Improprieties: Politics and Sexuality in Northern Irish Poetry', Neil Corcoran's 'The Chosen Ground: Essays on the Contemporary Poetry of Northern Ireland' and, last but by no means least, Seamus Heaney's own 'Place and Displacement: Recent Poetry of Northern Ireland'. (Helen Vendler, incidentally, is notorious amongst critics of Northern Irish literature for her spectacular misreading of Paul Muldoon's poetry - a mistake which has led to her work in that sphere to be taken with a very large grain of salt). And Liam Neeson isn't 'simply' Irish - Ballymena was still north of the border last time I checked. Perhaps what I'm looking for is some kind of template along the lines of 'so-and-so is a Northern Ireland -born Irish/British actor/poet/playwright/whatever'. That would seem to satisfy the requirements of accuracy while satisfying the demands of political sensitivities. BlackMarlin (talk) 16:14, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- I think you will find the Liam is simply Irish as he was born in Ireland and identifies himself as Irish (as do many people). That only complicated thing about him is his America citizenship. The rest is all well and good but adding the place of birth just for the hell of it in the opening goes against WP:OPENPARA. Bjmullan (talk) 17:42, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- What about the first chunk of BlackMarlin's comment? In regards to "is simply Irish as he was born in Ireland", thats as daft an arguement as argueing for the inclusion of European because he is born in Europe. Also in that regard Bjmullan you'd also have to accept that he is also British as he was born in the United Kingdom, and last i looked, country of birth is more relevant and important than island or landmass of birth. BlackMarlin you will discover soon enough, even compromises like that don't always satisfy the demands of some editors political sensitivities. Mabuska (talk) 22:39, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- Mabuska, I do not accept that being born in Northern Ireland makes you British. Everyone born in Northern Ireland has the choice and Liam, like so many, choose to be Irish. Bjmullan (talk) 11:32, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- He was born in the United Kingdom, therefore he's British born. He can self-identify as a Martian & he'd still be British born. PS: This is true of all people born in the United Kingdom, including those who self-identify as English, Scottish & Welsh. They're (wheither they like it or not) British. GoodDay (talk) 05:17, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Mabuska, I do not accept that being born in Northern Ireland makes you British. Everyone born in Northern Ireland has the choice and Liam, like so many, choose to be Irish. Bjmullan (talk) 11:32, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- What about the first chunk of BlackMarlin's comment? In regards to "is simply Irish as he was born in Ireland", thats as daft an arguement as argueing for the inclusion of European because he is born in Europe. Also in that regard Bjmullan you'd also have to accept that he is also British as he was born in the United Kingdom, and last i looked, country of birth is more relevant and important than island or landmass of birth. BlackMarlin you will discover soon enough, even compromises like that don't always satisfy the demands of some editors political sensitivities. Mabuska (talk) 22:39, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Peace Bridge
I notice that there is no article on the Peace Bridge as there is with the Craigavon and Foyle bridges. I'm asking here first as I don't want to start a dispute, what should the name of this article be? "Peace Bridge (Derry)"? - Cyanoir (talk) 11:21, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- "Peace Bridge (Foyle)"? BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 14:56, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well that was a nice peaceful resolution ;-) Dmcq (talk) 22:57, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- I have now created the article, which can be found at Peace Bridge (Foyle). Bjmullan (talk) 16:51, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Open Ireland page move discussion
After a two-year ban imposed by Arbcom, a page move discussion for theRepublic of Ireland can be entertained.
- (Discuss)–Republic of Ireland →Ireland (republic) Kauffner (talk) 09:06, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Bios
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I propose we use United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland pipelinked as Ireland, for those born on the island between 1800 & 1922. GoodDay (talk) 18:29, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- Some questions:
- Do we use Kingdom of Great Britain pipe linked as England, Scotland or Wales between born in those places between 1707 and 1801? No?
- Do we use United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland pipe linked as England, Scotland or Wales for people born in those places between 1801 and 1922? No?
- Do use United Kingdom pipe linked as England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland for people born in those places since 1922? No?
- Other may be interested in a previous related discussion. --RA (talk) 20:26, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- What we should do and what we do do are different things. The MOS reflect current consensus. Common practice is to give the place of birth of people born in the United Kingdom (1801—present) as England, Ireland (or Northern Ireland), Scotland or Wales and as being English, Irish (or Northern Irish), Scottish or Welsh. Similarly, it is common practice to give the birth place of people in the Kingdom of Great Britain (1707—1801) as England, Scotland or Wales and as being English, Scottish or Welsh.
- You are certainly free to seek to change that consensus. However, I don't think the IMOS is the proper place to do so. The issue affects more than just Ireland. It affects the whole of the United Kingdom (and the Kingdom of Great Britain before it). --RA (talk) 20:26, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
Disam
I have edited Ireland into articles that I believed were disambigious ,[[1]] and [[2]] for example , user:Snappy has reverted these edits claiming the need to disambiguate , I left a message on his talk page and still have got no response , I have done a lot of these edits and now am wondering is it correct? (based on "In other places prefer use of Ireland, except where the island of Ireland or Northern Ireland is being discussed in the same context or where confusion may arise. In such circumstances use Republic of Ireland (e.g. "Strabane is at the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland"). An exception is where the state forms a major component of the topic (e.g. on articles relating states, politics or governance) where Ireland should be preferred and the island should be referred to as the island of Ireland, or similar (e.g. "Ireland is a state in Europe occupying most of the island of Ireland"). ")
Also in Football (word) an editor is editing out Irish media and replacing it with media from the Republic of Ireland , to disambiguate but already under the title Republic of Ireland , I see only POV (as they didnt correct the part about Northern Ireland ) as something from the state should surely be described as Irish . I AGF on this the first time and didnt on the second . Murry1975 (talk) 13:02, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
- I would agree with you on both set of instances. However, a better place to get consensus on the application of the MOS may be the related talk pages rather than here. --RA (talk) 13:38, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
- Certainly agree with you on the Garda ones, having looked at the diffs - no need for disambiguation. No question but that they should point to Ireland. No idea on the others without the diffs. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 14:01, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
- Just went through 10 articles that I edited that are Gardai , CAB and Irish army that are all pipelinked Republic of Ireland all by the same editor , I need advice please .
- Some are as easily confused as a lemon , eg- Póilíní Airm (Ireland) , if the editor was so concerned why not change the title ? Instead the country in the infobox reads Republic of Ireland . I need help on this one as I dont know what to do . Do I re-edit and get them edited again , also here [[13]] on an edit he reverted I left well alone after this comment "Reverted to revision 453854413 by Snappy: rv - is wikipeire back again?. " Murry1975 (talk) 00:00, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
- In my view, there is no need to distinguish one "Ireland" from the other in those examples. There is no more risk associated with saying the Gardaí are the national police of Ireland than saying they are the national police of the Republic of Ireland. I'll drop a line at WP:IE to invite comment here, I'll ask Snappy to comment here too. --RA (talk) 09:26, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
- Usage of the pipelink is fine in these circumstances, as per the WP:IMOS. The articles should use [[Republic of Ireland | Ireland]]. --HighKing (talk) 13:02, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
- Some are as easily confused as a lemon , eg- Póilíní Airm (Ireland) , if the editor was so concerned why not change the title ? Instead the country in the infobox reads Republic of Ireland . I need help on this one as I dont know what to do . Do I re-edit and get them edited again , also here [[13]] on an edit he reverted I left well alone after this comment "Reverted to revision 453854413 by Snappy: rv - is wikipeire back again?. " Murry1975 (talk) 00:00, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
- I've reverted nos. 4 to 13 above. I removed the redundant sentence in #3 (which had been changed); the first sentence already read "[[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]]". BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 17:33, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm fine with the consensus here regarding my edits. I am not involved with the Football issue. GoodDay, as you should know, please refrain from commenting on the individual and stick to the issue at hand. Snappy (talk) 19:01, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
- Snappy , comment on the editor , I draw your attention to the implication you made "is wikipeire back again?" , that most certainly is on the editor, as GoodDays comment was on reverts that was a comment on your reverts , your comment was an implication of one of an editor who had more sock-puppets that I have socks in my drawer , not a comment I like and one I would prefer retracted .Murry1975 (talk) 21:26, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
- HighKing speaks the current consensus. Per the WP:IMOS the articles should use Ireland. Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:43, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
- Snappy , comment on the editor , I draw your attention to the implication you made "is wikipeire back again?" , that most certainly is on the editor, as GoodDays comment was on reverts that was a comment on your reverts , your comment was an implication of one of an editor who had more sock-puppets that I have socks in my drawer , not a comment I like and one I would prefer retracted .Murry1975 (talk) 21:26, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm fine with the consensus here regarding my edits. I am not involved with the Football issue. GoodDay, as you should know, please refrain from commenting on the individual and stick to the issue at hand. Snappy (talk) 19:01, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
- I've reverted nos. 4 to 13 above. I removed the redundant sentence in #3 (which had been changed); the first sentence already read "[[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]]". BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 17:33, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Anglo-Irish
There is a misconception on wikipedia regarding the nationality of certain notable Irish figures in relation to the use of "Anglo-Irish" in the lede instead of Irish.
The term Anglo-Irish is incorrectly and sometimes deliberately bandied about instead of Irish as a nationality. Many of the figures in some article disputes involved are Irish, but come from the Anglo-Irish social class, but it is not a nationality, and there is a lot of inconsistency regarding its use, an example is Jonathan Swift or Ernest Shackleton, an Irish man but for some reason is disregarded by a minute section of editors who refuse to acknowledge that he is Irish and Anglo-Irish (but only in the respect that he comes from that social class in the article), and then other articles like Oscar Wilde who is Irish but of Anglo-Irish culture, he is renowned internationally as Irish (not Anglo-Irish because it is a social class not a nationality.)
I don't understand it, a tiny segment of editors are trying to ignore this fact and are coming up with all this pseudo-social/historical excuses (most to be quite fair are pathetic) to make it difficult for observers and well-meaning editors for whatever reason, I am being falsely accused while trying to point this fact out as a POV pusher, which is unfair because I am not, I support and say the fact that if a individual is of Anglo-Irish class it should be mentioned in the article, just not in the opening sentence as it does not belong there, I am just stating the facts.
This misconception needs to be addressed.
I propose that Anglo-Irish not be used in the lede or infobox as a replacement for Irish, because it is a term for a privileged social class that existed/exists within Ireland, it is not a nationality, it should be used only when we are discussing the individual after the lede, or the first line of the lede. Sheodred (talk) 16:09, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
- Ango-Irish is an ethnic group (or even a sub-ethnic one) not a nationality , the biggest problem with nationality in regards to this time period seems to be what was a nation , was it the UK or one of the home nations; a term that dates from that time period . Neither Irish/Scottish/Welsh/English is mutually exclusive to British from this period , a recent dicussion on the BIOs talk page [[14]] indicated that a hard and fast rule could not be used and each must be judged and guided through the articles talk page .Murry1975 (talk) 16:29, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
- In the above paragraph, Murry1975 has referred everybody on this here page to the discussion dating from two weeks ago at the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Biography#Infobox_of_people_born_on_the_island_of_Ireland.2C_in_the_United_Kingdom_of_Great_Britain_and_Ireland where is was concluded that for any biography of an Anglo-Irish individual, "a hard and fast rule could not be used and each must be judged and guided through the article's talk page" for the individual. I fully agree with that conclusion. Seanwal111111 (talk) 18:33, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- The nationalities of figures that are and were born in the UK at the time and now, are still referred to by their constituent nationalities (Scottish, English, Welsh, Irish (sometimes Northern Irish) not Anglo-Irish, it is in most cases that in the bio of Irish figures that some editors are trying to push British and get rid of Irish, and we do not see the same extent of that problem in Scottish/English/Welsh articles. Sheodred (talk) 16:33, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
- British, should always be used, 'if' it's an individual who was born/lived/died, in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland or United Kingd of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. -- GoodDay (talk) 23:04, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
- Lots of Scottish articles would then need to be changed Lugnad (talk) 23:20, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
- British should certainly not be used automatically for Irish persons who were subjects of the British crown during the 1801-1922 period. These people would generally have been regarded as Irish, and they certainly were not from Britain. I have yet to be convinced that describing them as British is anything other than an anachronism resulting from projecting the current practice of using 'British' as an adjective relating to the United Kingdom generally and uncritically back onto a previous period.
- In any case, this is the third time you have brought up this proposal and it utterly failed on the previous two occasions. You must know by now that it's a non-runner, so why keep dragging it up? ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 00:11, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- Lots of Scottish articles would then need to be changed Lugnad (talk) 23:20, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
- Good question, CCTO. GoodDay, why are you insisting on this, once again? Do you really think insisting on describing Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness, Michael Collins or Daniel O'Connell as "British" is realistic, viable, accurate, or in any way a runner?! BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 11:53, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- Being of Anglican descent is entirely relevant for those people of those days. Know why? Because it's still relevant today. If a figure is a recent descendent or consider theirself to live on foreign soil it is entirely relevant in any article about any person as it might discuss the persons origin and family background. The concise way to sum that up may be Anglo-Irish, and if it is not *concise*, let's hear it what is. Britain is an island. Being British is confered on foreign descendants as they please. There is no further relevance to that last, is there? Gerry ever lived in Britain for instance or feel that his family belong there in their hearts? Tish. ~ R.T.G 00:06, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
Proposed addition
There are a number of related issues, so I propose that the following be added to the Biographical articles section in the IMOS:
For most people born on the island of Ireland before 6 December 1922, describe their nationality as Irish ([[Irish people|Irish]]). For most people born in Northern Ireland after 3 May 1921, give their nationality as Irish or Northern Irish ([[People from Northern Ireland|Northern Irish]]) or simply say that they are "from Northern Ireland". For most people born after 6 December 1922 in what is today the Republic of Ireland, give their nationality as Irish.
For some people who were: (a) born in what became Northern Ireland; (b) before the partition of Ireland; but who (c) first became notable for activities in the United Kingdom after partition; and (d) it is difficult to reach consensus on their nationality, consider saying the person was "from [County XXX/City], Ireland" or describing them in relation to their activities "in Northern Ireland".
In some cases, particularly historical, it may be appropriate to describe people born on the island of Ireland as English, Scottish or Gaelic. Do not describe people as being Anglo-Irish in the first sentence of an article or give Anglo-Irish as their nationality in an infobox. Elsewhere in an article, use Anglo-Irish as an adjective, not as a noun. In line with common practice for the United Kingdom, people who have held seats at the cabinet table of the Government of the United Kingdom, should be described as British ([[British people|British]]).
Examples:
- Jonathan Swift was an Irish writer.
- Arthur Wellesley was a British statesman.
- Jack Butler Yeats was an Irish artist.
- C. S. Lewis was a writer from Belfast, Ireland.
- Ivan Neill was a politician in Northern Ireland.
- George Best was a professional footballer from Northern Ireland.
--RA (talk) 20:00, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
- Sounds reasonable, but there must be some room for judgement calls on individual cases. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 20:53, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
- Agree. Often forgotten is that there is a highlighted box at the top of every MOS entries that advises to, "Use common sense in applying it; it will have occasional exceptions." --RA (talk) 21:41, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
- Meanwhile I note that John Tyndall isn't Irish any more ? see [15] . So the sooner something such as the proposal above is agreed, the better. Lugnad (talk) 22:52, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
- Another: there is a statue of Irish-born Thomas Spring Rice in Limrick, who was well regarded ("good landlord" during the famine, brought Jesuits to Mungret etc). He's British while his grandson Thomas Spring Rice is Irish. If guidelines could be agreed, wp could be consistent. Lugnad (talk) 23:18, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
- Agree. Often forgotten is that there is a highlighted box at the top of every MOS entries that advises to, "Use common sense in applying it; it will have occasional exceptions." --RA (talk) 21:41, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
- I strongly support the idea of having clearer guidelines in this area. But I have two quibbles with the proposal above.
- Firstly, with regard to the second paragraph, for people born on the island of Ireland before 1922, no distinction should be made between people born in what would become the North and those born in what would become the Republic. To make such a distinction would be anachronistic. In both cases, there may be exceptions (most obviously, someone who later took citizenship in another country or someone who has no real connection to Ireland other than the accident of being born there). But there's a bottom line that if someone was born in Belfast in 1921, they were born in Ireland, not Northern Ireland.
- Secondly, I think the phrase "for historical reasons" is unclear. The guidance is not helpful unless it is clear about what it means by this. I can't actually work out what it is intended to convey. What's the "historical reason" we would call someone born in Ireland Scottish or English? --FormerIP (talk) 00:45, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- The bright line rule that if someone was born on Ireland before partition then they are "Irish" sounds attractive. Unfortunately, it doesn't garner consensus for every subject. The intention of the second paragraph is to give a "way out" for both sides in particularly troublesome debates. Ultimately, the purpose of biographical articles is to enlighten readers. Squabbling over whether to call a person "Irish" or something else rarely benefits the reader greatly. It is better to simply say they were "from Ireland" or were notable for something they did "in Northern Ireland" as in the example of C. S. Lewis or Ivan Neill above.
- The "some cases, particularly historical" in which it may appropriate to describe someone born in Ireland as being English or Scottish (possibly in addition to "Irish") are to do with people born in the 16th and 17th centuries (and earlier). An example may be Robert Boyle. --RA (talk) 09:33, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- Squabbling over whether to call a person "Irish" or something else rarely benefits the reader greatly. That's precisely the purpose of having a guideline. There's no point in a guideline that skirts around the issues in order to allow the squabbling to carry on. --FormerIP (talk) 12:55, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose: I do not understand the above. The current manual of style says to call an "Irishman an Irishman". An encyclopaedia should call a duck a duck, an Irishman an Irishman. Where is the problem ?
- The term Anglo-Irish has varied throughout the years with different meanings at different times. It was originally a term of satire, written about by the Irish author John Banim The Anglo-Irish of the Nineteenth Century by John Banim, (published anonymously), 1828. It has nothing to do with the subject of nationality. [[Special:Contributions/203.206.87.131|203.206.87.131 - sockpuppet of indef blocked disruptive editor George SJ XXI]] (talk) 05:24, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, guidelines that do exist on the specific questions that arise on Ireland-related biographies. As such, there are no clear guidelines. While it may seem clear to each one of us individually to simply call an "Irishman an Irishman", not everyone agrees on who was an "Irishman". The question of Irish nationality (particularly historically) has been the subject of debate and dispute for a long time. The proposal above is an attempt to capture consensus as it is at present. --RA (talk) 09:33, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- RA: Please clarify an item in the above: To what "common practice" do you refer to. ? [[Special:Contributions/203.206.87.131|203.206.87.131 - sockpuppet of indef blocked disruptive editor George SJ XXI]] (talk) 07:37, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- Common practice appears to be to ordinarily give people born in the United Kingdom as English, Irish (or Northern Irish), Scottish or Welsh. However, an exception appears to be for UK (central) government cabinet ministers, for whom common practice appear to be to described those people as "British" (for example, "British politician", "British statesman", etc.). --RA (talk) 09:41, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- I've always understood this to refer to their post, i.e. British government minister means minister in the British Government, rather than a government minister who was also British. Peter Hain, Ruth Kelly and Patricia Hewitt are 3 cases in point. I don't think anyone knows for sure what nationality these are. Fmph (talk) 10:15, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you RA, I am still confused. "Common practice" appears to be. How does something appears to be ? Whom decides upon this "Common practice", how does it "Common practice" appear ? How can "Common practice" change an Irishman into something else ? An Englishman, a British Man, how can this occur ? [[Special:Contributions/203.206.87.131|203.206.87.131 - sockpuppet of indef blocked disruptive editor George SJ XXI]] (talk) 10:01, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- 203.206.*, something can "appear to be" if what it is can be observed with the eyes. Who decides if something "appears to be"? Well, I'd hope we could agree on that together.
- As you probably know, the citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and (Northern) Ireland are known as "British". Common practice, however, in biographies on Wikipedia is to ordinarily describe the people of that state as being either English, Scottish, (Northern) Irish or Welsh. Check out some biographies of people from the UK to see what I mean. For example, Charles Darwin is described as being an English naturalist, Sean Connery is given being a Scottish actor, and so on. So, it s not so much a matter of turning an Englishman or a Scotsman (or an Irishman or a Welshman) into something else. It is simply a choice of whether to describe them as British or otherwise. --RA (talk) 13:33, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- Still confused. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and (Northern) Ireland does not exist. Common practice on Wikipedia is to describe people by their nationality, i.e. a Frenchman is described as a Frenchman, a German as a German, an Irishman as an Irishman, an Englishman as an Englishman and so on. I do not see where the "choice" comes into it. Who's choice is it ? If a Frenchman becomes a member of the cabinet in Westminster, does he then become British ? By what means does he become British ? Convention is to call an Irishman, an Irishman.[[Special:Contributions/58.7.129.113|58.7.129.113 - sockpuppet of indef blocked disruptive editor George SJ XXI]] (talk) 16:08, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you RA, I am still confused. "Common practice" appears to be. How does something appears to be ? Whom decides upon this "Common practice", how does it "Common practice" appear ? How can "Common practice" change an Irishman into something else ? An Englishman, a British Man, how can this occur ? [[Special:Contributions/203.206.87.131|203.206.87.131 - sockpuppet of indef blocked disruptive editor George SJ XXI]] (talk) 10:01, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- I've always understood this to refer to their post, i.e. British government minister means minister in the British Government, rather than a government minister who was also British. Peter Hain, Ruth Kelly and Patricia Hewitt are 3 cases in point. I don't think anyone knows for sure what nationality these are. Fmph (talk) 10:15, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- Common practice appears to be to ordinarily give people born in the United Kingdom as English, Irish (or Northern Irish), Scottish or Welsh. However, an exception appears to be for UK (central) government cabinet ministers, for whom common practice appear to be to described those people as "British" (for example, "British politician", "British statesman", etc.). --RA (talk) 09:41, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- I would describe both Tyndall and Wellington as Irish born British. Dmcq (talk) 10:35, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
How can Wellington be an Irish born British ? He was born in Ireland in 1769. He was an Irishman. [[Special:Contributions/58.7.129.113|58.7.129.113 - sockpuppet of indef blocked disruptive editor George SJ XXI]] (talk) 16:08, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- and I would agree with the sentiment, however "Irish born British" sounds cumbersome, I haven't a suggestion, myself, but would prefer another phrase or adjective. Lugnad (talk) 10:53, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- It's not so bad when followed by scientist soldier or statesman. I think having a separate phrase like British statesman born in Ireland is harder to fit in and longer so you'd probably be looking at having another sentence to say it. Dmcq (talk) 12:22, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- And that gets to the nub of the issue, Charles Stewart Parnell can also be described as an "Irish-born British" politician. If Tyndall was "British" and not Irish, why is Darwin "English" and not "British"? -RA (talk) 13:33, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- I fail to see your point. Parnell was Irish just the same way as Darwin was English. Someone like William Rowan Hamilton would be an Irish mathematician without any of the British qualification. As for Tyndall I've no great problem with him being just described as an Irish physicist who spent his life in Britain like Boole was a British mathematician who spent his life in Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 13:52, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- You say above that you "would describe both Tyndall ... as Irish born British". OK. Let's accept that. Now, why would you not describe Darwin as English-born British? Or Parnell as Irish-born British? etc. What criteria are you using to determine that Tyndall should be described differently? --RA (talk) 16:56, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- I fail to see your point. Parnell was Irish just the same way as Darwin was English. Someone like William Rowan Hamilton would be an Irish mathematician without any of the British qualification. As for Tyndall I've no great problem with him being just described as an Irish physicist who spent his life in Britain like Boole was a British mathematician who spent his life in Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 13:52, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- And that gets to the nub of the issue, Charles Stewart Parnell can also be described as an "Irish-born British" politician. If Tyndall was "British" and not Irish, why is Darwin "English" and not "British"? -RA (talk) 13:33, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- It's not so bad when followed by scientist soldier or statesman. I think having a separate phrase like British statesman born in Ireland is harder to fit in and longer so you'd probably be looking at having another sentence to say it. Dmcq (talk) 12:22, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- and I would agree with the sentiment, however "Irish born British" sounds cumbersome, I haven't a suggestion, myself, but would prefer another phrase or adjective. Lugnad (talk) 10:53, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- (ec)I must enter a reservation on the statement that 'the citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and (Northern) Ireland are known as "British"'. I am not sure that Irish people before 1922 could be accurately described as "being British", and I certainly am not familiar with this usage. They were British subjects (this, not citizen, is the correct term for that period), but that does not mean that they were British people - for a start, they weren't from Britain. I would need to see some pretty conclusive evidence that this usage is widespread in reliable sources dealing with the period before concluding that one can generalize from their legal status as British subjects to an application of the adjective British tout court to them. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 13:55, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- Strongly object as written at present. "For most people born in Northern Ireland after 3 May 1921, give their nationality as Irish or Northern Irish" - what? All the surveys done by ARK show that Northern Irish is a minority term, people consider themselves Irish or British. Yet we're suddenly saying people are Irish or Northern Irish, despite a reliable source saying the use of Northern Irish is politically loaded. Fair enough using it for certain sportspeople or people who do self-identify as such, but including that while leaving out British is a no-go. There really needs to be some guidance about self-identification in there either, just so people know when a particular term should be used. 2 lines of K303 11:58, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment - the surveys also show that the description 'Northern Irish' is accepted by large numbers of both Catholics and Protestants. It's not at this stage confined to either community. I think that the term is losing its partisan identification, which admittedly was present previously. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 13:14, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- The majority of Protestants in Northern Ireland label themselves as "British" first and foremost. About half of the Catholics in Northern Ireland also label themselves as "British" but only secondarily. See the year 2007 survey at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_Northern_Ireland where 78% of all the people of Northern Ireland label themselves as "British" and 37% do so "very strongly". Seanwal111111 (talk)
- And the same goes, mutatis mutandis, for "Irish". 77% identify themselves as "Irish", 36% "very strongly". Protestants are actually less likely to reject the label "Irish" than Catholics are to reject the label "British". 47% of Catholics feel "not at all" British, compared to 38% of Protestants who feel "not at all" Irish. Of course, one could argue that this may have something to do with the fact that in Northern Ireland, one can consider oneself Irish on the basis of geography, whereas "British" can only be a political identity. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 14:19, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- Annual survey question to persons in Northern Ireland asking for the primary nationality label the person assigns to himself or herself: "Which of these best describes the way you think of yourself?" Answers (year 2008): "British" = 37%, "Northern Irish" = 29%, "Irish" = 26%, "Ulster" = 4%, "Other" = 4%. When those answers were broken down by religion, 57% of the Protestants pick "British" as their primary nationality. Only 4% of Protestants pick "Irish" as their primary nationality. 32% of Protestants pick "Northern Irish" as their primary nationality. http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2008/Community_Relations/NINATID.html Every person who picks "British" deserves to be called "British" by Wikipedia. Seanwal111111 (talk) 15:17, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, the survey doesn't come with a list of the population of Northern Ireland that will allow us to decide whether or not any given individual is one of the 37% who gives "British" as their primary identity. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 15:38, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- It's disappointing that people have chosen to ignore the more important parts of my post, namely that the proposed addition says to call people Irish and Northern Irish and does NOT include British as an option, despite, for example, British being the highest preferred option by the people surveryed by ARK in 2008 linked above. I also said the proposed addition doesn't say *when* to apply a particular label to a particular individual, and that some guidance on that will be needed in the guideline. 2 lines of K303 13:16, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, the survey doesn't come with a list of the population of Northern Ireland that will allow us to decide whether or not any given individual is one of the 37% who gives "British" as their primary identity. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 15:38, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- Annual survey question to persons in Northern Ireland asking for the primary nationality label the person assigns to himself or herself: "Which of these best describes the way you think of yourself?" Answers (year 2008): "British" = 37%, "Northern Irish" = 29%, "Irish" = 26%, "Ulster" = 4%, "Other" = 4%. When those answers were broken down by religion, 57% of the Protestants pick "British" as their primary nationality. Only 4% of Protestants pick "Irish" as their primary nationality. 32% of Protestants pick "Northern Irish" as their primary nationality. http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2008/Community_Relations/NINATID.html Every person who picks "British" deserves to be called "British" by Wikipedia. Seanwal111111 (talk) 15:17, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- And the same goes, mutatis mutandis, for "Irish". 77% identify themselves as "Irish", 36% "very strongly". Protestants are actually less likely to reject the label "Irish" than Catholics are to reject the label "British". 47% of Catholics feel "not at all" British, compared to 38% of Protestants who feel "not at all" Irish. Of course, one could argue that this may have something to do with the fact that in Northern Ireland, one can consider oneself Irish on the basis of geography, whereas "British" can only be a political identity. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 14:19, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- The majority of Protestants in Northern Ireland label themselves as "British" first and foremost. About half of the Catholics in Northern Ireland also label themselves as "British" but only secondarily. See the year 2007 survey at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_Northern_Ireland where 78% of all the people of Northern Ireland label themselves as "British" and 37% do so "very strongly". Seanwal111111 (talk)
- Comment - the surveys also show that the description 'Northern Irish' is accepted by large numbers of both Catholics and Protestants. It's not at this stage confined to either community. I think that the term is losing its partisan identification, which admittedly was present previously. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 13:14, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
"Irish born British" is cumbersome and implies that the two are exclusive when in fact you can easily be both and Wellington would have referred to himself first and foremost as British for most of his career - so individual cases need to be judged properly. Also if we call someone British for being part of the British government, then surely we should call historical figures who were officers in the British army British then. On Northern Irish, it is simply a toponym describing where someone is from, it has no nationality or citizenship quantification. Mabuska (talk) 16:28, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
- How do you know that he would have called himself British? Fmph (talk) 22:08, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
- Maybe i was too definite in my statement there. Regardless of that Arthur's vast career in the British army and the fact that he was also British Prime Minister twice - trying to argue he wasn't British wiuld be absurd. Mabuska (talk) 23:04, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
- The reason I ask is that I would suggest that 'Britain' and 'British' were not widely used. Instead, people used a generic 'England' and 'English'. Now, just like you, I haver no firm evidence of that to hand, but I'd suggest that if we did a little bit of WP:OR we would find I'm closer to the actualite. Fmph (talk) 08:02, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think so Fmph. The term British was used well before Arthur was even born, case in point being that the British Army was founded in 1707 and that the term British was used frequently to refer to the country created by the union of England and Scotland. After the Act of Union between Great Britain and Ireland, the term British then emcompassed Ireland, a union that existed for more of Arthur's life than not. Also consider that the English East India COmpany became known as the British East India Company after the Act of Union between England and Scotland amongst many of things would show that a little OR would not find you closer to the actualite. Mabuska (talk) 11:05, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- "After the Act of Union between Great Britain and Ireland, the term British then emcompassed Ireland..." Then why was it called "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland"? ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 14:02, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- I don't get what you getting at? I'm saying that the term British came to properly encompass Ireland once it merged in union with Great Britain. Mabuska (talk) 14:11, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- And I'm saying that it didn't. Sure, the state, in its new enlarged form, continued to be referred to by the shorthand adjective "British", but that doesn't mean that everything relating to Ireland after 1801 could properly be referred to as "British", except perhaps in a sense of ownership. As I've said below (or possibly above, it's very hard to keep track of the various strands of this discussion), as far as people were concerned, just because they were British subjects does not mean that they can automatically be referred to as British people despite not being from Britain. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 17:48, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- I wasn't saying that they were automatically this or that, just that the affairs of Ireland were tied to that of the state it belonged to and was thus British for the duration of its stint in the UK regardless of whether or not some of it's inhabitants thought of themselves as British or not. My original point is getting lost however it matters little anyways. Mabuska (talk) 16:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- And I'm saying that it didn't. Sure, the state, in its new enlarged form, continued to be referred to by the shorthand adjective "British", but that doesn't mean that everything relating to Ireland after 1801 could properly be referred to as "British", except perhaps in a sense of ownership. As I've said below (or possibly above, it's very hard to keep track of the various strands of this discussion), as far as people were concerned, just because they were British subjects does not mean that they can automatically be referred to as British people despite not being from Britain. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 17:48, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- I don't get what you getting at? I'm saying that the term British came to properly encompass Ireland once it merged in union with Great Britain. Mabuska (talk) 14:11, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- "After the Act of Union between Great Britain and Ireland, the term British then emcompassed Ireland..." Then why was it called "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland"? ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 14:02, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think so Fmph. The term British was used well before Arthur was even born, case in point being that the British Army was founded in 1707 and that the term British was used frequently to refer to the country created by the union of England and Scotland. After the Act of Union between Great Britain and Ireland, the term British then emcompassed Ireland, a union that existed for more of Arthur's life than not. Also consider that the English East India COmpany became known as the British East India Company after the Act of Union between England and Scotland amongst many of things would show that a little OR would not find you closer to the actualite. Mabuska (talk) 11:05, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- The reason I ask is that I would suggest that 'Britain' and 'British' were not widely used. Instead, people used a generic 'England' and 'English'. Now, just like you, I haver no firm evidence of that to hand, but I'd suggest that if we did a little bit of WP:OR we would find I'm closer to the actualite. Fmph (talk) 08:02, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- Maybe i was too definite in my statement there. Regardless of that Arthur's vast career in the British army and the fact that he was also British Prime Minister twice - trying to argue he wasn't British wiuld be absurd. Mabuska (talk) 23:04, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
Oppose. Above, editor Rannpháirtí anaithnid asks: If Tyndall was "British" and not Irish, why is Darwin "English" and not "British"? First of all, we must all accept that this is a political question; we are not arguing about the hard facts, we are arguing about labels where choices exist, with controversial political connotations. Let me illustrate that for the benefit of Commenter 58.7.129.113 above who says "I do not see where the "choice" comes into it." A number of well-known 19th century scientists lived in places that were under German rule back then and are not under German rule today. When these individuals had German as their native language, and were German in identity and culture, they are labelled German today. E.g. Ferdinand Cohn lived for the bulk of his life in what is now the city of Wrocław, in Poland (Breslau in German language). He's labelled "German". I can think of examples where a 19th century scientist who was born and lived for some of his life in the territory of today's Czech Republic is labelled "Czech" today if he identified himself Czech but labelled "German" if he identified himself German. That's resolving the "choice" by being respectful to the self-labeling of the individual concerned. The same should go for the Anglo-Irish and "British" of Ireland. When somebody in Northern Ireland today, and in the territory of Irish Republic in the 19th century, labels himself as "British" first and foremost, and "Irish" only secondarily, then he is entitled to be labeled as "British" at Wikipedia, regardless of what the Irish nationalists want to label him as. Irish nationalists reject the "British" label, for reasons that involve a certain political and disputable defintion of "Irish". Everybody who was born and lived in the UK is a "British national", you know.
The 19th century scientist John Tyndall is an example of someone born in Ireland who should be labeled "British" because that's how he labelled himself. Here's what I said back in 2009 at the discussion page about John Tyndall -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:John_Tyndall :
- Tyndall is properly labeled British, not Irish. He departed to England at age 21 and never lived in Ireland again. Thoughout his lifetime Ireland and Britain were a single country and everyone in that country was a British national. Irish nationalists may reject the British label, but Tyndall was vehemently anti-Irish-nationalist. He believed that a nation of Ireland would be an "unspeakable crime". His father was an Orangeman, and he married the daughter of an Orangeman. He was not Orange himself in the religious sense, but was Orange in the political sense of defining himself as British first and foremost. (The Orangemen in Ulster today define themselves as British first and foremost as well). Tyndall strongly self-identified himself as British. As one illustration, the biography of him in Nature (magazine), August 20, 1874 is based on information he supplied about himself, and in it he chooses to spend nearly as much time talking about his father's Gloucestershire ancestry as he does talking about his immediate family and boyhood in Ireland. Tyndall can be said to be Irish only in the sense that a man who spent his boyhood in Yorkshire and lived his adult life in London can be said to be a Yorkshireman. Such a man is properly labeled British at Wikipedia. As another analogy, consider an Anglophone Canadian Unionist today, who grew up in Quebec and moved over to Ontario at age 21, who self-identifies himself as Canadian, and who believes that an independent Quebec dominated by the Quebecois would be an unspeakable crime. Such a man is properly labelled Canadian, not Quebecois (and that will stay true regardless of whether Quebec ends up becoming a separate country in the future). The following is excerpted from John Tyndall's pamphlet Mr Gladstone and Home Rule published in 1887. It provides information about Tyndall's nationality in Tyndall's own words:
"It is my privilege to have been born in Ireland. Twenty years of my life were spent continuously in that country; and many times since striking root in England I have revisited the 'Emerald Isle'.... The [Irish] people as a whole, when I knew them, were kind, unselfish.... In my early youth my political colour was taken from my environment; it was 'orange' in hue. This faded as manhood was approached and my politics became liberal -- in some respects, indeed, radical. At no time, however, could I accept the creed of the 'Separatist'; and to speak of Home Rule as distinct from complete separation implies either mendacity or delusion [i.e., Tyndall believed the Home Rule proposal, if enacted, would obviously and inevitably be followed by complete separation of Ireland from Britain].... We, sturdy British Protestants, glorying in the freedom of our private judgment, sneered at the [Catholic] bishops who opposed the decree of the Pope's infallibility [in 1869], and afterwards caved in [in 1870]. We pointed to the occurence as an illustration of the cowardice of clericals and of the grinding despotism of Rome...."
- Tyndall is properly labeled British, not Irish. He departed to England at age 21 and never lived in Ireland again. Thoughout his lifetime Ireland and Britain were a single country and everyone in that country was a British national. Irish nationalists may reject the British label, but Tyndall was vehemently anti-Irish-nationalist. He believed that a nation of Ireland would be an "unspeakable crime". His father was an Orangeman, and he married the daughter of an Orangeman. He was not Orange himself in the religious sense, but was Orange in the political sense of defining himself as British first and foremost. (The Orangemen in Ulster today define themselves as British first and foremost as well). Tyndall strongly self-identified himself as British. As one illustration, the biography of him in Nature (magazine), August 20, 1874 is based on information he supplied about himself, and in it he chooses to spend nearly as much time talking about his father's Gloucestershire ancestry as he does talking about his immediate family and boyhood in Ireland. Tyndall can be said to be Irish only in the sense that a man who spent his boyhood in Yorkshire and lived his adult life in London can be said to be a Yorkshireman. Such a man is properly labeled British at Wikipedia. As another analogy, consider an Anglophone Canadian Unionist today, who grew up in Quebec and moved over to Ontario at age 21, who self-identifies himself as Canadian, and who believes that an independent Quebec dominated by the Quebecois would be an unspeakable crime. Such a man is properly labelled Canadian, not Quebecois (and that will stay true regardless of whether Quebec ends up becoming a separate country in the future). The following is excerpted from John Tyndall's pamphlet Mr Gladstone and Home Rule published in 1887. It provides information about Tyndall's nationality in Tyndall's own words:
- There you see Tyndall speaking of the Irish people as a whole as "them", and British Protestants as "we".
Here's what I said about the 19th century scientist William Rowan Hamilton in 2009 -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:William_Rowan_Hamilton:
- Hamilton lived for most of his life in Ireland and said he loved Ireland but considered himself a British national. In June 1855 he wrote: "My heart still throbs with sympathy for that great British Empire to which, from childhood, I have been accustomed to consider myself as belonging as to my country" (quoted on page 26 of Life of Sir William Rowan Hamilton, Volume Three, downloadable at Archive.org). Throughout his lifetime, Britain and Ireland were united as one country and Hamilton was intellectually and politically, as well as legally, a person of that country. Any person of that country can be and is labelled "British" when that person labels himself as "British". Hamilton also expressed his estrangement from the Catholic majority in Ireland: See e.g. pages 103 and 481 of Life of Sir William Rowan Hamilton, Volume Two where he says the Catholic Association "have done what I think so much harm". Most Irish Unionists, and Hamilton was no exception, identified their nationality as "British" first and foremost, and "Irish" only secondarily.... This self-identification as a British is the main basis for labeling them British at Wikipedia.
I would prefer William Rowan Hamilton to be labelled "British" not "Ango-Irish". I don't object to "Anglo-Irish" as much as I object to "Irish". In my view, according to my defintion of "Irish", labelling Tyndall and Hamilton as "Irish" is as bogus and spurious as labeling Ferdinand Cohn as "Polish". I know well that others take a different defintion of "Irish". In the end, the right choice is that the man should be labelled the way the man would label himself. Seanwal111111 (talk) 16:07, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- Never minding that my question was about Darwin, not Tyndall, the above shows the common error of imagining that no Irishman (or no true Irishman?) could support the union or have an affection for anything British or England. This is a particularly post-1919 view (in the Republic anyway), and one that is possibly receding again. There was no such contradiction in Tyndall (or Hamilton's) day.
- Maybe a 19th century description of Tyndall, which addresses the questions you raise, will enlighten things:
- John Tyndall was an Irishman. Much of his history is explained by that illuminating fact. The Celt was strong in him. People forgot too often how much Ireland contributes to the general life of our complex nationality. How many Englishmen are aware, I wonder, that Lord Kelvin (Sir William Thompson), Lord Wolseley, Professor Bryce, Oscar Wilde, Comyns Carr, Harry Furniss, Lord Dufferin — to take a few names at random out of many that occur to me — are every one of them Irishmen?
- About Tyndall, at any rate, there was never any doubt. He retained to the last no small physical traces of his Hibernian ancestry. He was born in 1820 at Leighlin Bridge, in County Carlow, so that his age marched, year by year, abreast with Herbet Spencer's. It is usual to say the he was of English descent, and I believe he claimed kinship with Matthew Tindal, one of the stoutest defenders of freedom of thought in the seventeenth century. That may have been so, and his ancestry in the direct paternal line may perhaps have been English. But those who know the ways of Irish Protestants well are aware of the tenacity with which many families cling to the vaguest shred of what they are pleased to call "Anglo-Saxon" descent. To be English in Ireland is like being Norman in England, or coming over with the "Mayflower" in Massachusetts. You will find scores of Irishmen bearing English names and boasting an English origin who are nevertheless as Celtic in type as the McCarthys or the O'Donohues. How could it well be otherwise? Mothers count in heredity for just as much as fathers; and members of English households, which have settled in Ireland, and intermarried with Irish women, become in a few generations, as Gerald the Welshman (whom we absurdly call Giraldus Cambrensis) long ago remarked, "more Irish than the Irish," — ipsis Hibernis Hiberniores. Certainly a family domiciled at Carlow, in the heart of Leinster, could hardly have failed to show traces of Irish blood. As a matter of fact, John Tyndall himself was a thorough-going Celt in physique and in temperament. He had the iron constitution, the wiry strenght, the reckless love of danger and adventure, the forvid imagination, the fiery zeal, the abundant eloquence, the somewhat flowery rhetoric, the tenderness of heart, the munificent generosity, which distinguish the character of his Celtic country men. Even the obstinate determination with which in later life he opposed, tooth and nail, the claim of his nation to national self-governance was itself thoroughly Irish. He fought Home Rule with the vigorous spirit of the Kilkenny cats; for ever since Ireland was a nation at all, Irishmen have always been divided into factions, and have harried one another, unfortunately, with with more bitter hatred than ever they have displayed towards the common enemy. No Englishman has ever shown the same hatred of Home Rule that has been shown by the Leckys, the Burkes and the Hamiltons.
- Tyndall rose from the ranks, or very near it. He was one of those Irish men whose industry, ability, and ancestoral vigor enabled them to push their way boldly to the front from through the most adverse circumstances. It is said, I know not with what truth, that his father was a member of the Irish Constabulary. Originally employed on the Ordnance Survey, the young fellow, accustomed to live on a pound a week, established himself for some years as a railway engineer at Manchester. But his love from the first was for chemistry and physics. ... (Grant Allen, "Professor Tyndall", in Albert Shaw, William Thomas Stead (ed), The Review of Reviews, Volume 9, 1894)
- --RA (talk) 20:09, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- I am reminded of the row between John Richardson Wigham and the Stevenson brothers about oil v gas for illuminating lighthouses. Tyndall described the arguments against Wigham as the inaccuracy-of-the-Irish-mind hypothesis. Lugnad (talk) 21:21, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- If Darwin called himself an Englishman, we can call him an Englishman too. Tyndall on the other hand didn't call himself an Irishman: He called himself British. (I mean British first, Irish secondarily, as I said earlier). Rannpháirtí anaithnid's rambling quote from some late 19th century commentator claims that Tyndall was a "thorough-going Celt in temperament". That is nonsense because there was and is no such thing as a Celt temperament. That 19th century commentator is an idiot who really thinks that "Irish blood" can form temperament distinct from culture -- he says "Certainly a family domiciled at Carlow, in the heart of Leinster, could hardly have failed to show traces of Irish blood"). Other than that scientifically rubbish idea about "blood" and "temperament", that commentator doesn't present any evidence that Tyndall could be labelled "Irish" not "British". In particular, he doesn't show anything about what Tyndall himself thought, which is the thing that must be shown if you concede that in the end, the right choice is that the man should be labelled the way the man would label himself. Seanwal111111 (talk) 21:21, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- Of course it sounds funny to us to hear talk about "Celtic temperament" and "Irish blood" but the quote gives a picture of how the people of 19th century Britain and Ireland thought about these things. To them, as to most people today, it would simply be matter-of-fact that Tyndall was Irish. Another example:
- Of course he was not English; he was Irish, or at most Anglo-Irish; his ancestors having migrated two centuries ago from Gloucestershire to Ireland. But he and his forbears had during these two hundred years breathed the air of Ireland, and had become in many respects altogether Irish. You would never be in doubt when you heard Tyndall speak among what people his youth had been spent and his accent acquired.
- Nor could you doubt that the fervour and force of his written and spoken style owed something, and owed much, to his Irish blood, or to Irish influences of some kind. He had the quickness of wit characteristic of the Irish and not characteristic of the English. He had the want of humour, or of a sense of humour, also, which his countrymen so often want, at least in the conduct of life and in the affairs of this world. The want of it leads men to take exaggerated views of the importance of things which concern themselves — George W. Smalley, Studies of Men, 1895
- --RA (talk) 23:44, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- Of course it sounds funny to us to hear talk about "Celtic temperament" and "Irish blood" but the quote gives a picture of how the people of 19th century Britain and Ireland thought about these things. To them, as to most people today, it would simply be matter-of-fact that Tyndall was Irish. Another example:
- If Darwin called himself an Englishman, we can call him an Englishman too. Tyndall on the other hand didn't call himself an Irishman: He called himself British. (I mean British first, Irish secondarily, as I said earlier). Rannpháirtí anaithnid's rambling quote from some late 19th century commentator claims that Tyndall was a "thorough-going Celt in temperament". That is nonsense because there was and is no such thing as a Celt temperament. That 19th century commentator is an idiot who really thinks that "Irish blood" can form temperament distinct from culture -- he says "Certainly a family domiciled at Carlow, in the heart of Leinster, could hardly have failed to show traces of Irish blood"). Other than that scientifically rubbish idea about "blood" and "temperament", that commentator doesn't present any evidence that Tyndall could be labelled "Irish" not "British". In particular, he doesn't show anything about what Tyndall himself thought, which is the thing that must be shown if you concede that in the end, the right choice is that the man should be labelled the way the man would label himself. Seanwal111111 (talk) 21:21, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- What will the Scots say if we have to relist Robert Burns as British?? It's ridiculous, as people were always described as Irish or Scottish while they were legally British or UK citizens. It's ahistorical and will bring wikipedia into disrepute. Also it was nothing to do with being pro or anti Home Rule.Red Hurley (talk) 21:22, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- Nobody is suggesting relisting Robert Burns as British. To repeat what has already been said several times earlier by others and me, no general rule for all British biographies makes sense, and each individual is considered individually, and in the event of a dispute about the individual, the dispute is discussed on the discussion page of that individual. See the comments above by Murry1975 and the discussion two weeks ago at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Biography#Infobox_of_people_born_on_the_island_of_Ireland.2C_in_the_United_Kingdom_of_Great_Britain_and_Ireland. The same proposal that is being made by Sheodred, on this page you're now on, was made on 12 nov 2011 by GoodDay at the above page. After discussin, GoodDay withdrew his proposal with these words: "It's been over 3-days & it's obvious that my proposals aren't gonna be adopted. There's one thing in the Wikipedia:UKNAT essay, that I can't dispute -- It is impossible to gain uniformity across these bio articles. I imagine it would be 10 times as difficult to get uniformity with (for example) Italian & German bio articles." Seanwal111111 (talk) 21:35, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm suggesting that Burns be described as British. He was born/lived & died in the United Kingdom. The only part of UKNAT, that I agree to, is that it's impossible to get uniformity on these British bio articles. GoodDay (talk) 21:46, 1 December 2011 (UTC)- GoodDay, thanks for correcting me. "It is impossible to get uniformity" is right, and putting it a bit more strongly I say uniformity doesn't exist. As they say in Ulster, the solution is "respect for diversity". Seanwal111111 (talk) 21:56, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- Nobody is suggesting relisting Robert Burns as British. To repeat what has already been said several times earlier by others and me, no general rule for all British biographies makes sense, and each individual is considered individually, and in the event of a dispute about the individual, the dispute is discussed on the discussion page of that individual. See the comments above by Murry1975 and the discussion two weeks ago at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Biography#Infobox_of_people_born_on_the_island_of_Ireland.2C_in_the_United_Kingdom_of_Great_Britain_and_Ireland. The same proposal that is being made by Sheodred, on this page you're now on, was made on 12 nov 2011 by GoodDay at the above page. After discussin, GoodDay withdrew his proposal with these words: "It's been over 3-days & it's obvious that my proposals aren't gonna be adopted. There's one thing in the Wikipedia:UKNAT essay, that I can't dispute -- It is impossible to gain uniformity across these bio articles. I imagine it would be 10 times as difficult to get uniformity with (for example) Italian & German bio articles." Seanwal111111 (talk) 21:35, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- What will the Scots say if we have to relist Robert Burns as British?? It's ridiculous, as people were always described as Irish or Scottish while they were legally British or UK citizens. It's ahistorical and will bring wikipedia into disrepute. Also it was nothing to do with being pro or anti Home Rule.Red Hurley (talk) 21:22, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- Rannpháirtí anaithnid says what I've said above "shows the common error of imagining that no Irishman (or no true Irishman?) could support the union or have an affection for anything British." That statement reflects misunderstanding of all I've said. What I've said is that many (not all) 19th century unionists and pro-Britishers in Ireland saw their nationality as British, just as many (not all) in Northern Ireland do today. William Rowan Hamilton in the 19th century was politically, intellectually, self-consciously, culturally, and yes legally a British national, not an Irish national. The same goes for Edward Carson and the Duke of Wellington. The same goes for the following 19th century Anglo-Irish or Irish-born scientists who editor Sheodred has edited to label "Irish": George Gabriel Stokes, Thomas Romney Robinson, George Johnstone Stoney, and probably others. Sheodred has made the same edit on a number of other Anglo-Irish individuals. Repeating myself for fear of still being misunderstood, some Anglo-Irish individuals are better labeled "British" and some better labeled "Irish". For some individuals, the label "Anglo-Irish" is a useful compromise, notwithstanding that it's not a nationality strictly speaking. The idea of introducing a uniform global rule is a bad idea. Seanwal111111 (talk) 01:07, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- "What I've said is that many (not all) 19th century unionists and pro-Britishers in Ireland saw their nationality as British..." - You've shown Tyndall's political view of Home Rule. You showed his theological view of Roman Catholicism. From that you inferred that he would have preferred to have been called "British" and thus the label "Irish" would be inappropriate. Yet, you have not produced any evidence, either primary or secondary, to support that inference. Even, if Tyndall's "preference" matters.
- What I have shown is contemporary sources describing his opposition to Home Rule, describing his opposition to Roman Catholicism, and doing so in the context of describing Tyndall as an "Irishman" - and indeed a typical Irishman! --RA (talk) 09:50, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- I can quote you contemporary souces in Germany and USA labeling Tyndall and Hamilton as "British" and also as "English". I've quoted you Tyndall saying "Irish people as a whole" are "them", and "British Protestants" are "we". I quoted Hamilton saying "My heart still throbs with sympathy for that great British Empire to which, from childhood, I have been accustomed to consider myself as belonging as to my country." I've said a broad uniform nationality labelling rule for biographies of British nationals who lived in Ireland makes no sense because there is too much diversity among the individuals on the matter. Nobody disputes that they are British nationals. The rule we've had all these past years is that disputes about the nationality label for these British nationals should be disputed individually, at the talk page of the individual biography. Seanwal111111 (talk) 13:42, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- Rannpháirtí anaithnid says what I've said above "shows the common error of imagining that no Irishman (or no true Irishman?) could support the union or have an affection for anything British." That statement reflects misunderstanding of all I've said. What I've said is that many (not all) 19th century unionists and pro-Britishers in Ireland saw their nationality as British, just as many (not all) in Northern Ireland do today. William Rowan Hamilton in the 19th century was politically, intellectually, self-consciously, culturally, and yes legally a British national, not an Irish national. The same goes for Edward Carson and the Duke of Wellington. The same goes for the following 19th century Anglo-Irish or Irish-born scientists who editor Sheodred has edited to label "Irish": George Gabriel Stokes, Thomas Romney Robinson, George Johnstone Stoney, and probably others. Sheodred has made the same edit on a number of other Anglo-Irish individuals. Repeating myself for fear of still being misunderstood, some Anglo-Irish individuals are better labeled "British" and some better labeled "Irish". For some individuals, the label "Anglo-Irish" is a useful compromise, notwithstanding that it's not a nationality strictly speaking. The idea of introducing a uniform global rule is a bad idea. Seanwal111111 (talk) 01:07, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- "I can quote you contemporary souces in Germany and USA labeling Tyndall and Hamilton as 'British'..." - Undoubtedly. Tyndall and Hamilton were Irish. All of Ireland was a part of the United Kingdom at that time. In that sense, British is a superset of English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh. There is no more contradiction between Tyndall and Hamilton being Irish and British than there is between me being Irish and European, where by "Europe" I would mean the European Union.
- "...and also as 'English'." - That's simply an error. And presumably, in the same way that all people from the UK (and Ireland even today) are frequently, but mistakenly, called 'English'.
- "'Irish people as a whole' are 'them', and 'British Protestants' are 'we'." - The citation from Tyndall was "people as a whole", you added the word "Irish". Nineteenth century Britain and Ireland was a highly structued society. The reference you cited is an argument by Tyndall against Home Rule. Tyndall feared that Home Rule would lead to a break down in the structures of society. When he is referring the "them", he is referring to different social class, one he fear becoming powerful, not a different nationality. When he describes himself as a "British Protestant", he is using rhetorical device in a political argument. He is contrasing his social class, loyal "British Protestants", against, presumably disloyal, "Roman Catholics". Compare with the later anti-Home Rule slogan of "Home Rule is Rome Rule". (Additionally, be careful not to twist language. For example, when I am writing about Ireland, I write about "there", despite the fact that it is "here" i.e. I am writing from Ireland. Similarly, when people write about their own people, they often choose to use "they" or "them", rather than "we" or "us".)
- The Hamilton quote you provide is no more than a Irishman expressing love for the Empire, to which he says he belongs to as much as to his country. That is in no way out of the ordinary for the time. In the 19th century, all of Ireland was an integral part of the United Kingdom and, thus, one of the four home countries of the British Empire. Irishmen formed half of the British army and (Catholic and Protestant alike) held position of authority in far-flung colonies. When an Irishman looked at the map and saw one third of the world painted red, he felt just as much pride as an Englishman, a Scotsman or a Welshman at that achievement.
- "I've said a broad uniform nationality labelling rule for biographies of British nationals who lived in Ireland makes no sense..." - You write this as if Tyndall or Hamilton were immigrants or merely visitors to Ireland. They were born and bred there to families who had lived in Ireland for centuries at the very least.
- --RA (talk) 17:09, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- The 19th century people such as Tyndall and Hamilton were called British and were also called Irish (and, less often, Anglo-Irish). Such people were opposed to a nation of Ireland (Irish nationalism); they supported a nation of the British Isles (UK unionism). They belonged to the nation of the British Isles in the spirit and the practice of their daily lives. They were self-consciously British, and none would deny that they were living in Ireland. They were also legally British; there was no Irish sovereign state. Labeling them "Irish" is in defiance of the reality of their Britishness (while labelling them "British" is not in defiance of the reality that they lived on the island of Ireland -- in case you missed it earlier see http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2008/Community_Relations/NINATID.html ). Seanwal111111 (talk) 21:31, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- Seanwal111111, there was legally an Irish nation then as referred to in the Act of Union it was joined with the other nations of the UK . The underlying problem is the terms nation and citizenship , they are similar yet not the same . There has been a proposal before to use the correct usage to apply to the relevant terms it was opposed and never gained much support , I wonder should someone not look at that again? Also by your stat qoute does that mean that 63% of people in Northern Ireland do not want to be British? Lies ,damn lies and statistics .Murry1975 (talk) 22:02, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- The 19th century people such as Tyndall and Hamilton were called British and were also called Irish (and, less often, Anglo-Irish). Such people were opposed to a nation of Ireland (Irish nationalism); they supported a nation of the British Isles (UK unionism). They belonged to the nation of the British Isles in the spirit and the practice of their daily lives. They were self-consciously British, and none would deny that they were living in Ireland. They were also legally British; there was no Irish sovereign state. Labeling them "Irish" is in defiance of the reality of their Britishness (while labelling them "British" is not in defiance of the reality that they lived on the island of Ireland -- in case you missed it earlier see http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2008/Community_Relations/NINATID.html ). Seanwal111111 (talk) 21:31, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Has anyone considered the 'when in doubt, throw it out' method? If an agreement isn't attainable for British or Irish usage in content or the infobox, then have neither shown. GoodDay (talk) 03:40, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
- A very sensible suggestion, I would say. Place of birth is there already. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 11:15, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
- I like that idea too. Back in 2009 I proposed it and it was agreed to on the talk page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:William_Rowan_Hamilton but is wasn't enforced. It has an implementation problem. When the disputed nationality is omitted in the opening paragraph of the bio, some casual reader/editor comes along inserts one. I've seen that happen many times. In all cases I've seen, the person who inserts it knows nothing about the history of science, knows nothing about the biography of the scientist in question, and makes no effort to improve the content of the article in any other respect beyond the flagwaving aspect. Rather, the person doing the edit is just an Irish Republic flagwaver, or a flagwaver of some other stripe. As an example which was mentioned already above, take a look at the edit history of Robert Boyle. According to the data at http://vs.aka-online.de/cgi-bin/wppagehiststat.pl the Robert Boyle article has had 2893 edits from 1435 unique editors. A large fraction those edits -- literally hundreds of them -- have only been changing Boyle's nationality label back and forth, or removing it. Here's a typical example (I thank Rannpháirtí anaithnid for his fairness and correctness on this one): http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Robert_Boyle&diff=385318733&oldid=385284170 . Despite the 2893 edits, today's article is largely and essentially the same as it was seven years ago in December 2004, as you can see at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Robert_Boyle&oldid=8967199 . The major difference between then and now is the addition of references for further reading and external links; the substantive text of the article is still almost wholly the 1911 EB (and that includes most of the Wikipedia article's sentences that are supported by footnote references to sources other than the 1911 EB). (By the way the 1911 EB labeled Boyle "English" while today's EB labels him "Anglo-Irish"). The edit history of Robert Boyle is just one illustration of the problem that there are a lot of editors out there who have no knowledge about the biography of whoever the subject may be, and they are only interested in the flagwaving aspect. They are the implementation problem. This problem is by no means confined to "these islands". The Persians or Iranians are horrendous at it when it comes to medieval scientists who wrote in Arabic. If a scientist in the medieval Islamic world has any connection to Persia, no matter how dodgy or remote or disputable, then the Iranians insist he must be labelled "Persian" not "Islamic" and especially not "Arabic". There have been a lot of "edit wars" about that at Wikipedia. And the Persians have won the wars. They won falsely, not by virtue of the facts. They won by willfulness, passion, numbers of editors, and the tactic of supporting it with multiple flimsy footnotes. Their tactic is to write that the individual was a "Persian", and attach a footnote to a supporting flimsy citation source. If anyone inserts a source that claims the contrary, they delete that source, and replace it with a second and third flimsy source to support the claim, and they don't tolerate removal of their sources. The generality of these editors never add historical or scientific content. They are only interested Persian flagwaving. I have found them to be even worse than the Irish Republic people. Seanwal111111 (talk) 22:08, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- Just out of curiosity why do you keep describing some Irish editors as "Irish Republic" people? Do you have a problem using the word Irish, because from what I can make out from your edits in articles and talk pages, you do have a problem. Sheodred (talk) 00:26, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- What about Lord Charles Beresford? there isn't a hint of 'Irish' in the article, but then read this: [16], Any opinions? Lugnad (talk) 20:12, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
- Just out of curiosity why do you keep describing some Irish editors as "Irish Republic" people? Do you have a problem using the word Irish, because from what I can make out from your edits in articles and talk pages, you do have a problem. Sheodred (talk) 00:26, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- I like that idea too. Back in 2009 I proposed it and it was agreed to on the talk page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:William_Rowan_Hamilton but is wasn't enforced. It has an implementation problem. When the disputed nationality is omitted in the opening paragraph of the bio, some casual reader/editor comes along inserts one. I've seen that happen many times. In all cases I've seen, the person who inserts it knows nothing about the history of science, knows nothing about the biography of the scientist in question, and makes no effort to improve the content of the article in any other respect beyond the flagwaving aspect. Rather, the person doing the edit is just an Irish Republic flagwaver, or a flagwaver of some other stripe. As an example which was mentioned already above, take a look at the edit history of Robert Boyle. According to the data at http://vs.aka-online.de/cgi-bin/wppagehiststat.pl the Robert Boyle article has had 2893 edits from 1435 unique editors. A large fraction those edits -- literally hundreds of them -- have only been changing Boyle's nationality label back and forth, or removing it. Here's a typical example (I thank Rannpháirtí anaithnid for his fairness and correctness on this one): http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Robert_Boyle&diff=385318733&oldid=385284170 . Despite the 2893 edits, today's article is largely and essentially the same as it was seven years ago in December 2004, as you can see at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Robert_Boyle&oldid=8967199 . The major difference between then and now is the addition of references for further reading and external links; the substantive text of the article is still almost wholly the 1911 EB (and that includes most of the Wikipedia article's sentences that are supported by footnote references to sources other than the 1911 EB). (By the way the 1911 EB labeled Boyle "English" while today's EB labels him "Anglo-Irish"). The edit history of Robert Boyle is just one illustration of the problem that there are a lot of editors out there who have no knowledge about the biography of whoever the subject may be, and they are only interested in the flagwaving aspect. They are the implementation problem. This problem is by no means confined to "these islands". The Persians or Iranians are horrendous at it when it comes to medieval scientists who wrote in Arabic. If a scientist in the medieval Islamic world has any connection to Persia, no matter how dodgy or remote or disputable, then the Iranians insist he must be labelled "Persian" not "Islamic" and especially not "Arabic". There have been a lot of "edit wars" about that at Wikipedia. And the Persians have won the wars. They won falsely, not by virtue of the facts. They won by willfulness, passion, numbers of editors, and the tactic of supporting it with multiple flimsy footnotes. Their tactic is to write that the individual was a "Persian", and attach a footnote to a supporting flimsy citation source. If anyone inserts a source that claims the contrary, they delete that source, and replace it with a second and third flimsy source to support the claim, and they don't tolerate removal of their sources. The generality of these editors never add historical or scientific content. They are only interested Persian flagwaving. I have found them to be even worse than the Irish Republic people. Seanwal111111 (talk) 22:08, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
Citizenship
If someone is / was a British citizen that should always be mentioned in the infobox. Robert Burns was Scottish and British. Both should be stated in his infobox but clearly Scottish is the best choice to use for the introduction in that case. It should not be just about how someone described themselves. Wikipedia is meant to state facts. Alex Salmond may hate being British and made it his life long mission to destroy the British state, but he is British none the less and has a passport to prove it. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:26, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- BritishWatcher the passport arguement is flawed and an unwise sidestepping of the issue .Being British is not - for fear of repeating myself - mutually exclusive to being Irish/Welsh/English/Scottish , a point you agree with , however following on discussions on the BIO project talk page it can not universally - or practically be done . Therefore we might have to go through this process everytime . All Rannpháirtí Anaithnid is trying to do is make it easier for people editing these articles to do so . The nationality that a historic figure saw themselves as or were seen to be by others is how we identify them .Murry1975 (talk) 13:29, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not going to comment on the idea of whether Burns was a "citizen" of anywhere. (He would have been a subject of the British crown.) But let's look at citizenship. Is citizenship what we should use?
- Since 1993, nationals of the members states of the European Union are also European citizens. This is a simple matter of law. A fact. And, "Wikipedia is meant to state facts"? A person is a European citizen just as much as they are a British, Irish or French citizen. So, if citizenship is the determiner for what we use, we should use European (as least as well as something else). No?
- Of course we won't. The example demonstrates that it is not in fact citizenship we are talking about. A person from the UK may be a British citizen (and a European citizen too) but more common practice is to identify a persons nationality as English, (Northern) Irish, Scottish or Welsh. It is those common means to identify someone nationality, not their citizenship, that we should be looking at. --RA (talk) 17:50, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- EU "citizenship" is merely a derivative of citizenship in a EU member State. The EU member States are Sovereign States. A person's citizenship in a Sovereign State is what his nationality is as well -- exceptions to that rule are allowed but that's the default rule.
- On a related note (i.e. British subjects) Australians were British until the passing of the Australia Acts 1986 , 1986!!! . So if as intended an admentment to whole-change nationalities to British from which we mean British subjects or citizens , a lot of Autralians would have to re-classified , then application of this change would have to be used without bias and conjecture throughout Wiki on other states of similar type and classification . Again I stress after the discussion on the BIO project page , this woud not be feasible as a task .Murry1975 (talk) 19:35, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Can we break it down?
It seems to me that there is too much text in the proposal above for it to get agreement. Would it be better to deal with it one issue at a time? It looks to me that there is a consensus at least to add something about Anglo-Irish not being adequate as a statement of someone's nationality. Maybe we could start with that and then progress to the next thing. --FormerIP (talk) 23:17, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
- Agree Once that is set in stone, we can make the appropiate changes to the relevant articles. Sheodred (talk) 01:12, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose (whatever that means) because in some situations being Anglo-Irish is the best way to summarise the social standing of an individual. Expressing nationality isn't the be-all-and-end-all in the lead of a biography, and we should choose terms that best express the form of the individual to our readers. The other issue is that this is a false premise - you are not required (see WP:MOSBIO) to list nationality in the lead. What you are supposed to do is provide context (and it then goes on to advise that usually this is nationality). Clearly, using Anglo-Irish as nationality is incorrect, but there is nothing to stop it being used as context. --Errant (chat!) 17:00, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- Can you elaborate on whether Anglo-Irish belongs in the lede, that is the issue here. Sheodred (talk) 20:27, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
- No, nationality is not obligatory, but MOSBIO says: Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. --FormerIP (talk) 17:33, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- The WP:MOSBIO guideline says "The opening paragraph should have:... (3) Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity)... Ethnicity should not generally be emphasized unless relevant to the subject's notability." That language means that mention of ethnicity is admissible in the opening paragraph if it provides context, as Errant has said. One other thing the WP:MOSBIO guideline says is: "the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless relevant to the subject's notability." That language is implicitly saying the country of birth is not determinative of the subject's nationality. Seanwal111111 (talk) 20:21, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- The famous scientist George Gabriel Stokes was born in Ireland in 1819, moved to a boarding school in England at age 16, and lived in England for the rest of his life. He lived in Cambridge for 66 years. Until last week the opening sentence of his biography was " ... was a mathematician and physicist, who at Cambridge...." But last week the Irish flagwaving editor Sheodred changed this to read "was an Irish mathematician and physicist, who at Cambridge...." The way it was beforehand provides adequate context (location: Cambridge), in full conformity with the WP:MOSBIO guideline that Errant and I quoted above. The addition by Sheodred does not add context and in fact it confuses the context. Seanwal111111 (talk) 01:06, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, but check the edit summary [17]. He's using an in-discussion MOS proposal to justify the edit – a proposal he made, no less. Furthermore, this is double-standards and POV-pushing at its best: he proposed that Anglo-Irish should be removed from all leads, as MOS advises something about not to emphasise nationality/sexuality, etc in the lead. Yet he has added Irish into the lead, when clearly it Stokes' contributions to science that make him notable, and not his Irishness. Distinctly bad editing and a clear-cut example of the pro-Irish I've been saying this "proposal" enshrouds; such behaviour lacks neutrality and if used against dozens or hundreds of articles could create a storm. This bull needs taking by the horns before it gets loose. Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 01:40, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
- The famous scientist George Gabriel Stokes was born in Ireland in 1819, moved to a boarding school in England at age 16, and lived in England for the rest of his life. He lived in Cambridge for 66 years. Until last week the opening sentence of his biography was " ... was a mathematician and physicist, who at Cambridge...." But last week the Irish flagwaving editor Sheodred changed this to read "was an Irish mathematician and physicist, who at Cambridge...." The way it was beforehand provides adequate context (location: Cambridge), in full conformity with the WP:MOSBIO guideline that Errant and I quoted above. The addition by Sheodred does not add context and in fact it confuses the context. Seanwal111111 (talk) 01:06, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
- Can you elaborate on whether Anglo-Irish belongs in the lede, that is the issue here. Sheodred (talk) 20:27, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose – Why is this Sheodred running about Wiki, rewriting history and heritage without citing sources? Editing a vast number of articles, with edit summaries in the form of "supported by MOS", when, in fact, MOS says nothing directly regarding the use of the term "Anglo-Irish"? What gives him the authority to determine who is "Irish", and who is not, based mostly on personal views of how the term should be applied to people? Why, also, are all his retorts to people who oppose his pro-Irish views often condescending, threatening (to use AN/I), and rarely, if ever, supported by reliable sources (the crux of Wiki), but are heavy in nationalistic rhetoric? Why is it, also, that his proposal at MOS:talk (found here) lacks any form of official or reliable neutral material to support these claims, and reeks of original research:
For most people born on the island of Ireland before 6 December 1922, describe their nationality as Irish (Irish). For most people born in Northern Ireland after 3 May 1921, give their nationality as Irish or Northern Irish (Northern Irish) or simply say that they are "from Northern Ireland". For most people born after 6 December 1922 in what is today the Republic of Ireland, give their nationality as Irish.
- These are dates. Source them. "Most people" – who? Cite, reference. You can't base consensus on unsupported facts, and expect people to !vote without access to verification. Nor can you propose the same thing on 2 or 3 Wiki boards, and then point people in the direction of the one receiving most favours and call it "consensus" enough to edit/revert and threaten other editors with AN/I. Also, starting such a topic at WikiProject Ireland, before carrying it to MOS:talk, then waiting until many of the pro-Irish members support the motion, and then attempting to close the discussion and change articles in just 5 days (Opened: [18] — Seek Closure: [19]) is serious POV-pushing and possibly a matter for WP:ECCN to get involved in. WikiProjects are designed to focus on specific topics, however, they are not designed to develop COI issues, or to over-ride other projects. The term "Anglo-Irish" has as much relevance to historical personalities as the term "Anglo-Saxon", and as such projects such as History or Biography have equal right to be invited to discuss the MOS:talk discussion, without this purposefully selective and elusive discussion only reaching Irish interests and a few passing readers. All the better reason to rush the matter through after 5 days and avoid massive confrontation and opposition, as I see it. There is a distinct lack of good faith in this proposal. It should also be noted that the MOS is in fact a guideline, not policy, not "set in stone". The use of "Anglo-Irish" is not, technically speaking, a "style" due to its biographical nature. And when a historian can find 10 reliable sources stating that someone like Arthur Wellesley is Anglo-Irish, WP:IAR comes into play, as valid sources are more encyclopedic in value that MOS recommendations. Rewriting MOS:BIO will not achieve anything. You cannot reasonably claim that "Anglo-Irish is an inappropriate term, even if reliable sources use it, so we're going to write our own rules and rewrite the heritage any anyone we prefer to call Irish". That, lads, is racial, per se, and I think you'll find those of you who push hard enough, without following procedures or making transparent community gestures, will enjoy WP:BLOCK for disruptive behaviour.
- FormerIP should also note that there is no clear "consensus at least to add something about Anglo-Irish not being adequate as a statement of someone's nationality". Only 3 or 4 people have made a !vote comment, the rest is debate, from which you could infer anything. Given that Former IP represents a pro-Irish policy, and therefore a COI exists, it would be inappropriate for him to either conclude the discussion or determine the outcome. An uninvolved admin should be requested to close the matter, once a proper consensus has been cast, representing a wider scope of the Wiki community through invitations to various WikiProjects, including Ireland, England, Bio, History, etc to partake. Unless such a neutral consensus takes place, I personally consider the matter tainted with too much WikiProject Ireland bias, and would request WP:ECCN review the matter, and prevent any such rewrite of MOS or any other policy until it takes place. That is how consensus works. And I have said all that without expressing any opinions of my own regarding the matter, so cannot be accused of anti-Irish sentiments, except by idiots.
- I am bringing WP:CONLIMITED to the forefront of this discussion based on the fact that changing the nationality of a large number of Ireland-related biographies represents the wider Wiki community and probably a larger number of articles than might be expected. Such changes should be passed through a wide-scale community consensus, which over-rides WikiProject level discussion. Nationality is not a mere style, and affects more than just historical articles, but current BLPs. BLPs are a high risk area, and it would be against the WP:CONLIMITED policy to allow WP:Ireland to make this decision, or even for a few MOS:talk readers to make comment and create unsanctioned guidelines that leads to considerable uproar in favour of pro-Irish editors. Community consensus needs to establish a neutral means of determining whether "Anglo-Irish" and any other similar terms, are balanced, admissible descriptions. Such consensus should be monitored and closed by uninvolved admins, rather than carried out behind their backs in whispers and passed without serious deliberation.
- Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 16:25, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- It may have escaped your notice, but this is the talk page of the Manual of Style for Ireland-related articles, and therefore the obvious and most appropriate place to discuss issues of style for Ireland-related articles. What we are talking about here are issues specific to Ireland-related articles. Anyone who has an interest in Ireland-related articles is able to follow this page, as it's the obvious forum for dealing with such articles. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 16:55, 8 December 2011 (UTC
- Anyone "Irish" or disputed "Anglo-Irish" is Ireland-related. That means a lot of things, really, Ireland-related is an ambiguous term really. Anything Irish falls in that term. But as I said, nationality per se isn't a style. Placement of it may be, but rewording, changing from Anglo-Irish to Irish is not styling, its altering the context. Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 17:18, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- Marcus, that was TLDR. But if there are concerns about the right venue, it could always be opened up to an RfC discussion. My main point is not to declare an easy consensus, but to say that the discussion should be broken up so that we are not trying to decide various issues all at once, because that is not going anywhere. --FormerIP (talk) 16:58, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- TLDR isn't an attitude someone should take if they expect their proposals to be taken seriously. Doesn't matter though, only the last part applied to your comments. Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 17:18, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- "Nationality is not a mere style, and affects more than just historical articles, but current BLPs. BLPs are a high risk area, and it would be against the WP:CONLIMITED policy to allow WP:Ireland to make this decision, or even for a few MOS:talk readers to make comment and create unsanctioned guidelines that leads to considerable uproar in favour of pro-Irish editors" .This is very interesting . Also given the tone you have used through out , which is aggressive , I am wondering have you came across this before ? Current BLP's meet certain criteria , as historical ones go you seem to find attempts here "limited" which could be true , but to add wieght to your point - unduly- you add in BLP's .There are BLP guidelines in place have any been broken or gaming taken place on them ? If so please give examples so we can learn .
- "Unless such a neutral consensus takes place, I personally consider the matter tainted with too much WikiProject Ireland bias, and would request WP:ECCN review the matter, and prevent any such rewrite of MOS or any other policy until it takes place" I wil repeat this piece "I personally consider " that is a biased from you.
- "is serious POV-pushing and possibly a matter for WP:ECCN to get involved in" that is a accusation . What you fail to realise is that there are many examples of Scottish/Welsh/English used on Wiki bios without the drama when Irish gets put in - I will give you that some do cause it and ask thge question have you deaalt with these in a similar way ?
- The fact remains that it seems some editors fail to recognise that this talk page is IMOS not MOS , MOS prescribes down to here and then specific issues are dealt with here . This is the way it works on other projects why not here?
- "Such consensus should be monitored and closed by uninvolved admins, rather than carried out behind their backs in whispers and passed without serious deliberation." I take this as an accusation and insult , your tone through-out has been poor but to throw a remark like that out at the end is unacceptable , these pages are here in full view and so are the comments . To suggest that this talk page is being carried out in whispers to avoid admin is not the type of comment I would accept as reasonable . Without serious deliberation ? An insult to the editors who spend their time and efforts here .Murry1975 (talk) 17:16, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- My experiences are unimportant. If you want to find some, go fish. This matter pertains to future changes and preventing rewrites of articles that could appear Irish-centric rather than neutral, and cause disruptions to more articles than it's worth. Claiming this is IMOS is really cloud cover. If you find an article saying someone is "British nationality, Anglo-Irish heritage" you could use IMOS as leverage to edit any article with the term Anglo-Irish in it, regardless of the actual Irish relevance beyond that. People wikilawyer, and the worst offenders are usually those who write the guidelines to suit their own agendas. As for what you call "my accusations", is there is no agenda, then there is cause for alarm. If there is a clear motive to this removal of Anglo-Irish usage wiiki-wide, then your retorts only serve to attack my concerns rather than AGF and consider that this is not about you, or IMOS, but Wiki.If I am not neutral, please quote my pro-English remarks. I think you'll find... none. Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 17:30, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- Marcus, that was TLDR. But if there are concerns about the right venue, it could always be opened up to an RfC discussion. My main point is not to declare an easy consensus, but to say that the discussion should be broken up so that we are not trying to decide various issues all at once, because that is not going anywhere. --FormerIP (talk) 16:58, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- Anyone "Irish" or disputed "Anglo-Irish" is Ireland-related. That means a lot of things, really, Ireland-related is an ambiguous term really. Anything Irish falls in that term. But as I said, nationality per se isn't a style. Placement of it may be, but rewording, changing from Anglo-Irish to Irish is not styling, its altering the context. Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 17:18, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- It may have escaped your notice, but this is the talk page of the Manual of Style for Ireland-related articles, and therefore the obvious and most appropriate place to discuss issues of style for Ireland-related articles. What we are talking about here are issues specific to Ireland-related articles. Anyone who has an interest in Ireland-related articles is able to follow this page, as it's the obvious forum for dealing with such articles. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 16:55, 8 December 2011 (UTC
- Here is comment by MarcusBritish
- "I am challenging their proposals, based on what I've written in detail, as usual. Particularly note the bold/italic bit at the end, which should put a halt on this fiasco and prevent these unsupported pro-Irish rewrites being pushed across Wiki by a handful of nationalistic editors, contrary to RS/OR, and highly POV/COI based. Not sure if you'll agree with the consensus heading I've tried to invoke, but I think it stands to reason. I think if they were allowed to keep their ball rolling and rewrite MOS to their own agenda, it would disrupt a lot of British–Irish relations on Wiki, and not do anyone any favours. I also think it wise to bear WP:ECCN in mind, in future, given the nationality issue. That might serve to curb their determination, as I do not think they were ever set on representing anyone but themselves, and the use of MOS:talk has been a front to suggest "we brought it to consensus" but I don't see and invitation to discussion, beyond their own members, and a few passer-by remarks" . Only mentions pro-Irish and nationalistic editors . You are not nuetral in this from your phrasing . If I knew how to report you I would , thats not a personal attack just an opinion based on your one sided comments above .Murry1975 (talk) 17:23, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- Your quote proves nothing. Malleus has already stated his views, therefore I don't need to give a neutral tone on his page. He has already made his mind known. Therefore you have little to gain from reporting anyone, other than to doube up Sheodred's petty report earlier and further prove that there is a pro-Irish agenda which reports people in an attempt to silence opposition. So make my day. Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 17:38, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- I'll take that as a threat.
BeesWasps only attack when they feel threatened. Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 17:44, 8 December 2011 (UTC)- MarcuBritish , just read over your comments , you have looked one sided at it you only mention one side of the coin here , that is my concern , I never mentioned pro-English remarks so dont misquote me to belittle my comments - I have not misquoted you . I would AGF within the boundries that misunderstandings should be avoided but to use only comments like "these unsupported pro-Irish rewrites being pushed across Wiki by a handful of nationalistic editors" and not balance it out with also stating the other side , I would ask who states using Irish or Anglo-Irish as historical nationalities are pro-Irish or anything else ? If you think I am wanting to just blanket a label on please look at my edit on Newcastle Utd FC re Shane Ferguson and my edits abd comments on Adam Carroll (btw a BLP that one) . There is no agenda here , the discussion here directly relates to improve Wiki . On a side note your tone has not improved , even with the addition of sarcasm . Murry1975 (talk) 17:45, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- I'll take that as a threat.
Once again you claim pro-Irish agenda , be careful the way you misqoute , I said hornets not bees . Do you regularly misqoute ? As I stated I dont know how to report . BTW you are baiting here , so please continue incase I learn how to report .Murry1975 (talk) 17:48, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- You're reading black and white text on a screen. It has no voice, and therefore no tone except what you apply in your own mind. I cannot be faulted for your own interpretations. I suggest you read it in a more neutral tone, than attempting to imply that I lack one. I'm not interested in what has been done, or what you have written. This is about what can be affected and cause wide-spread disruptions. Hornet's nests contain
bees, beeswasps, who attack when threatened. Don't talk to me about baiting when clearly you're using silly sayings to make threats on behalf of a larger body. The saying is what it is. Going to rewrite that too? Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 17:54, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- You're reading black and white text on a screen. It has no voice, and therefore no tone except what you apply in your own mind. I cannot be faulted for your own interpretations. I suggest you read it in a more neutral tone, than attempting to imply that I lack one. I'm not interested in what has been done, or what you have written. This is about what can be affected and cause wide-spread disruptions. Hornet's nests contain
- Hornets are wasps not bees . "talk to me about baiting when clearly you're using silly sayings to make threats on behalf of a larger body" Strike it out now please .Murry1975 (talk) 17:58, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- No. I don't take condescending orders. Don't change the subject to revolve around you or me, it's the lowest form of attempting to demerit an editor who opposes your "grand plan". I suggest you go away and find evidence, reliable, neutral evidence to support the claims being made that a large number of articles which currently express the idea that their subjects are Anglo-Irish, should have their identities removed, or replaced. I see it as a political agenda. I see it as pro-Irish. That is how I see it. Not my POV, my interpretation of the discussions I have read and the uderhanded manner in which they have been pressed rapidly and tried to avoid the red-tape of community consensus. Talk about the content not the contributor. I have my opinions, you have yours. I'm not interested in your bully-tactics, scare-mongering or buzzy-bumble-wasps. Go find some relevant data to support that Anglo-Irish is not a neutral, suitable or encyclopedic term. Otherwise, I have no further interest in your superfluous remarks regarding my or your past edits. Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 18:07, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- Its a request not order (PS who said it was written in a condescending tone). You state it is pro-Irish , i ask again why ? You make a claim " bully-tactics, scare-mongering or buzzy-bumble-wasps. Go find some relevant data to support that Anglo-Irish is not a neutral, suitable or encyclopedic term" I am again suggesting you strike that . I personally dont think an ethinicity should be used as a nationality , as it is in some case , it could be used to give a background on that person , but to call them Irish only , which I think you think I would advocate is not correct . The Duke of Wellington Irish born spoke the language and enjoyed himself in Ireland was still clearly British - as he would state in Irish . All I can gather from your comments are that there is a paranoia amongst some . If you would like to contribute to these pages on a regular basis please do . But dont accuse editors of a certain nationality to be POV pushers en masse , that is not AGF . Please strike your comments as they bring nothing to this discussion , thank you .Murry1975 (talk) 18:19, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- Request denied. Moving on.. did I say it was a nationality? I believe, no if fact I know for fact, that I used the term "heritage" a number of times. As for Wellington, you are applying a modern 21st century concept, i.e. this "political correctness" BS to a man born in thw late 18th C. where classes were more distinct and where using the term Anglo-Irish represents not only his Irish birth and English roots, but his class. As for enjoying himself.. he pissed off out of Ireland and rarely went back after settling in England. That is history. And the same history books refer to him as Anglo-Irish. Only Wikipedians want to override historians, who have performed better research and engaged in long academic study to write those books. "Oh yes, Holmes spent 3 years writing this book and calls him Anglo-Irish, but in the 5 minutes it's taken me to consider that, I say he's Irish and wiki needs rewriting to express my views as a modern Irishman who does not agree with the use of the term Anglo-Irish whatsoever". That is the sense I get, and whilst you may very well be speaking for yourself, there is evidence, which I raised in my initial post, that another editor has been changing articles and claiming MOS supports those changes, despite the fact it is still under discussion. It is the case that left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing at WP:Ireland? He does appear to be the ring-leader in this matter, pushing for these MOS changes, making bullets for others to fire, are creating spurious reports that other editors are "being disruptive" for reverting his changes, which even admins found laughable. AGF, FYI, is not a required practice, and I only practice it when I see it, and the stupid report he made about Malleus' reverts and attempt to call him uncivil was a drive to block someone opposing his agenda. That agenda has been imposed on the WikiProject and spread to about 5 talk pages on Wiki. And each has received opposition. What next.. open a new talk page elsewhere, hope no one disapproves, then use it as "proof of consensus"? That's the pattern I've seen. Go find it. Until then I think you're attempting to argue a conceited point. And again, I only see the WP:Ireland people arguing in favour of "Anglo-Irish". What about Scotch-Irish and other such terms? I do dislike double standards, true. But when those double-standards have been raised and people still stick to them, then it creates more doubts as to the sincerity of the proposals being raised. Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 18:39, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- I've said all that I need to say now regarding this proposal. Clearly it has nnot been properly conceived, lacks anything beyond original research and questionable ideals, and leaves doubts as to its scope. I suggest someone go find material and try to engage and convince a wider community, as well as addressing the magnitude of the proposal and potential for disagreements from British editors. Ciao, Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 18:48, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- Its a request not order (PS who said it was written in a condescending tone). You state it is pro-Irish , i ask again why ? You make a claim " bully-tactics, scare-mongering or buzzy-bumble-wasps. Go find some relevant data to support that Anglo-Irish is not a neutral, suitable or encyclopedic term" I am again suggesting you strike that . I personally dont think an ethinicity should be used as a nationality , as it is in some case , it could be used to give a background on that person , but to call them Irish only , which I think you think I would advocate is not correct . The Duke of Wellington Irish born spoke the language and enjoyed himself in Ireland was still clearly British - as he would state in Irish . All I can gather from your comments are that there is a paranoia amongst some . If you would like to contribute to these pages on a regular basis please do . But dont accuse editors of a certain nationality to be POV pushers en masse , that is not AGF . Please strike your comments as they bring nothing to this discussion , thank you .Murry1975 (talk) 18:19, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- No. I don't take condescending orders. Don't change the subject to revolve around you or me, it's the lowest form of attempting to demerit an editor who opposes your "grand plan". I suggest you go away and find evidence, reliable, neutral evidence to support the claims being made that a large number of articles which currently express the idea that their subjects are Anglo-Irish, should have their identities removed, or replaced. I see it as a political agenda. I see it as pro-Irish. That is how I see it. Not my POV, my interpretation of the discussions I have read and the uderhanded manner in which they have been pressed rapidly and tried to avoid the red-tape of community consensus. Talk about the content not the contributor. I have my opinions, you have yours. I'm not interested in your bully-tactics, scare-mongering or buzzy-bumble-wasps. Go find some relevant data to support that Anglo-Irish is not a neutral, suitable or encyclopedic term. Otherwise, I have no further interest in your superfluous remarks regarding my or your past edits. Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 18:07, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- I welcome MarcusBritish's contributions to the discussion. He has made a number of good points. Murry1975 has been too harsh on Marcus one point. That particular point of Marcus's I say is a reasonable and fair point, which is that an arbitrary discussion about Irish affairs doesn't attract British interest and British voices, as a general rule, usually you know, whereas for this specific discussion we do need British interest and British voices.
- One point on which I'd like to take issue with MarcusBritish is his emphasis on the power of "reliable sources (the crux of Wiki)". Credentialed and semi-credentialed sources exist to support or oppose any and all of the alternatives here. E.g. today's online 2011 Encyclopedia Britannica states that John Tyndall was "British", and George Gabriel Stokes was "British", and William Rowan Hamilton was "Irish", and Robert Boyle was "Anglo-Irish". User Shroedred has changed Tyndall and Stokes to "Irish" with no supporting source, as MarcusBritish mentioned. Now the problem is that Shroedred, if he put his mind to it, could find some source or another with not-terribly-bad credentials that labels Tyndall as "Irish" and Stokes as "Irish", and possibly even maybe Boyle as "Irish". I myself say that Tyndall, Stokes and yes Hamilton were "British", and Boyle was "English". I can give you lots more sources to support it. But Shroedred too can come up with some sources to support the contrary. My sources disagree with Shroedred's sources. Thus I believe MarcusBritish is mistaken if he thinks the issue can be settled simply by citations to "reliable sources". Seanwal111111 (talk) 19:44, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- I'd like to note that I pointed out a handful of strong sources calling the 1st Duke of Wellington Anglo-Irish, as well as no consensus to remove the term in his biog article. Yet is was still reworded to "Irish-born British soldier and... such and such" despite these sources by highly regarded historians and biographers. RS is an important policy, as it gives everything we publish on Wiki credence which can be verified and remove claims that wiki is inaccurate, biased, etc. Every instance of "X was Anglo-Irish" in Wiki is open to being tagged "citation needed" by anyone, even though pro-Brits who hate the term and want "British" the flip side of "Irish" but usually without merit and missing the point of the term Anglo-Irish to mean a heritage, not a nationality. Some editors, however, consider heritage terms less ambiguous than a fixed nationality, and the need for refs becomes all the more important when the term is deemed dubious. Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 21:05, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- One point on which I'd like to take issue with MarcusBritish is his emphasis on the power of "reliable sources (the crux of Wiki)". Credentialed and semi-credentialed sources exist to support or oppose any and all of the alternatives here. E.g. today's online 2011 Encyclopedia Britannica states that John Tyndall was "British", and George Gabriel Stokes was "British", and William Rowan Hamilton was "Irish", and Robert Boyle was "Anglo-Irish". User Shroedred has changed Tyndall and Stokes to "Irish" with no supporting source, as MarcusBritish mentioned. Now the problem is that Shroedred, if he put his mind to it, could find some source or another with not-terribly-bad credentials that labels Tyndall as "Irish" and Stokes as "Irish", and possibly even maybe Boyle as "Irish". I myself say that Tyndall, Stokes and yes Hamilton were "British", and Boyle was "English". I can give you lots more sources to support it. But Shroedred too can come up with some sources to support the contrary. My sources disagree with Shroedred's sources. Thus I believe MarcusBritish is mistaken if he thinks the issue can be settled simply by citations to "reliable sources". Seanwal111111 (talk) 19:44, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose Far too many issues with the current draft, only some of which are mentioned above. It is useful to note that for US citizens, you are not supposed to mention their nationality at birth in the first sentence ("Irish-born" etc). I wouldn't suggest going that far for Irish-born people who spent their adult lives in the UK, but they should not be described just as "Irish". I don't object to some people being described as Anglo-Irish, but this should be restricted to those from a clearly Ascendency background living in the 17th-19th centuries. Johnbod (talk) 20:35, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- Given that the term is most used for earlier births, often notable nobles, I agree. There is a myopic view that the use of Anglo-Irish is a misconception, yet in those days it was even self-inferred to people, including generations of Irish-born family members whose roots descended from British soil, such as Arthur Wellesley and his relatives. Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 21:05, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- All the "British" POV pushing editors are commenting here en-masse to hijack this discussion, it goes to show........... Sheodred (talk) 16:56, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
- It goes to show..... what... that they should have been invited in the first place, and your underhand attempt to usurp MOS and make major changes has had a spanner thrown in the works.. right? If you were discussing how to place the Irish flag on Irish rugby team articles, or whether to style Gaelic in italics, of if leprechaun should have an upper-case "L" or not, no one would be that affected from a British POV. Given that this matter targets a large number of articles with a British personality, you have acted in bad faith by proceeding of your own accord, pushing an agenda, making edits in the name of false MOS stipulations, making false allegations on AN/I, and generally being a dick in response to the matter. But now that the matter has come to British eyes, through no fault of your own from that AN/I fiasco you provoked, let's make damned sure this proposal is not approved after 5 days on a page that gets limited attention from the community and is dealt with properly, neutrally, and definitely not by you. And FYI, I have never been interested in biogs or BLPs, they bore me, except great military leaders, only Wellington being an Anglo-Irish individual that I know of. So for me, there is no POV, you have disrupted far more articles with your nationalistic changes and attacks on British editors who revert them. We all know who has the real issues here, as your anti-British remark above further implies. Further responses like that could lead you to trouble, given how you have applied double standards to your edits, minimising anything British, pushing anything Irish. Plenty of examples of subtle but not particularly neutral edits, which could be seen as disruptive and lead to community bans. Don't force some British editor's hand by provoking them to make an issue of it on AN/I or rather WP:ECCN, and you won't have to worry. There's a lot to be said for collaboration. Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 18:33, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
- Can I take it the outcome of this lengthy discussion is that the proposal of Sheodred and the related proposal of RA have run into lots of reasonable opposition and have been rejected? The most powerful reason to reject them was given by commenter Errant above (thank you, Errant). Neither Sheodred nor RA tried to rebutt Errant's point. If I can take it that rejection has happened, I ask approval to undo the unjustified nationalistic flag-waving edit made by Sheodred to a number of biographies on 29 November. Sheodred, in making those edits, justified them as implementing a "Manual of Style" policy, whereas they are contrary to the Manual of Style. As Errant pointed out, the Manual of Style says that an ethnicity or a geographical location of any kind can be mentioned instead of a nationality of it provides equally good or better context for the subject (WP:MOSBIO). Sheodred's edits of 29 Nov 2011 are viewable at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sheodred
- Seanwal111111 (talk) 11:07, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
- Agree, per Sheodred and RA. Perceptions of Irishness, Britishness and anywhere in between have changed in the last few decades, and wikipedia has a world-wide audience, not just in these islands. Let's keep our Al Murray-isms at bay. Tyndall's view of Irish culture - or the lack of it - doesn't change the fact that he was born in Ireland. And I note that wee Rabbie is still Scottish.Red Hurley (talk) 20:10, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
- Agree on the following terms: The proposition to create an IMOS policy regulating the use of "Anglo-Irish" has been debased, as it was never sensible in the first place. However, please don't just go reverting every article because Sheodred simply appears pro-Irish. I'm not a British nationalist, nor am I a biographer, I'm a historian – I respect Brits, Irish, Germans, French, etc in the context of enemy soldiers or as patriots serving their country during war with the exclusion of terrorists, i.e. murderers, which is not the case here. The term, and relevance, of "Anglo-Irishism" has more historical context to people from the past, and is less commonly used today, because social classes have changed. Assess each article he edited objectively, there is no reason to not refer to anyone as Irish with Anglo-Irish ancestry. Bear in mind that nationality, British or Irish, needs to based on such things as place of birth and time of birth, e.g. pre-Acts of Union 1800 births are Irish – so someone like Wellington was Irish, but a British solider, and of Anglo-Irish heritage. Nationality, career, heritage. All are separate items. Don't remove Sheodred's use of "Irish" just because of this proposal failing, and don't re-add "British" without checking if it was wrong to being with. Maintain neutrality in the articles, use both nationality and heritage if necessary, as I have done with Wellington's recently. Such an IMOS would have been against WP:RS practice, NPOV and common sense. Now is the time to apply it, in a neutral, non-nationalistic manner. Revert with care, maintain a balance, and I'll support. Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 23:45, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Disingenuous words above. The article, on Wellington, still does not state that "Wellington was an Irishman." It looks as if the report was on the nose. I checked and it is ok to post on these pages as they are separate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:Contributions/203.59.115.155|203.59.115.155 sockpuppet of indef blocked disruptive editor George SJ XXI]] (talk) 12:24, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
- It says: a British soldier and statesman, a native of Ireland, from the Anglo-Irish Ascendancy, what is wrong with that? There are other articles which could be questioned, but since O'Connell did not consider him Irish, I reckon that this one is acceptable Lugnad (talk) 12:54, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment: The above editing ANON IP has been identified and blocked as a sockpuppet of the indef banned disruptive editor George SJ XXI. Please note that all the Anon edits, from various IP addresses, above are also his. See Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of George SJ XXI. Please note that he jumps's IP's very quickly and has a site wide ban on editing, including his own talkpage. Richard Harvey (talk) 13:31, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
- Labeling them "Irish" is in defiance of the reality of their Britishness (while labelling them "British" is not in defiance of the reality that they lived on the island of Ireland One of Sean's many comments on Irish bios.
- Have run into lots of reasonable opposition You and two other editors who refuse to compromise because of your POV, does not count as reasonable opposition.
- I ask approval to undo the unjustified nationalistic flag-waving edit made by Sheodred to a number of biographies on 29 November Are you for real? No neutral party is going to give you approval to force your POV on those articles, especially when you call it "nationalistic flag waving edits" in a pathetic attempt to convince a larger audience that I am forcing my "POV" on those articles, whereas in reality it is the other around, those articles were victims of editors such as yourself who sought to remove all traces of these Irish figures as Irish. People will see right through the motivations of editors such as yourself. Sheodred (talk) 14:02, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
- Editors and admins really have no idea about the amount of absolute fucking bullshit that myself and other editors,admins have to go through on the encyclopedia on the Irish articles, being accused of being nationalists pushing our POV, when in essence we are correcting errors and rectifying articles that have been subjected to the POV of editors who than throw that exact same argument at us to be disruptive. It is 99% of the time only on articles about Ireland and Irish figures compared to Scotland, Wales and England, its f**king bullsh*t!Sheodred (talk) 14:02, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
- Talk to the hand. Or take it to ArbCom. Either way, shut up – you have been pushing an agenda, as identified by several editors who have never even been involved with each other before. You attempted to strip Anglo-Irish identities via a MOS policy which is against NPOV, RS and is COI. Period. Instead of acting all mouth, why not try WP:ECCN, and us "British PV pushers" will come make an official gesture instead of having to deal with your back hand shenanigans, especially using "MOS" as an excuse to edit articles under false pretenses. Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 19:27, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
- Marcus.........to put it bluntly to you.......you talk a lot of shite. Sheodred (talk) 19:55, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
- I guess your lifelong personal experience in that department gives you insight. Might want to refrain from the PAs, they'll only add to your list of disruptions, as I foresee the day your disruptions are all listed on AN/I. Be a fair few British eyes on there ready to throw the book at you, me laddo. Don't tempt fate. Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 20:11, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
- You started with the PAs, anyone can scroll through your comments and see that. Work away, list all my "disruptions" on AN/I, typical of the bullying tactics yourself and other like-minded editors employ. Sheodred (talk) 20:25, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
- Bullying! LOL, now you're a comedian! Like to see you substantiate that claim, though. Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 20:29, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
- Marcus.........to put it bluntly to you.......you talk a lot of shite. Sheodred (talk) 19:55, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
- Talk to the hand. Or take it to ArbCom. Either way, shut up – you have been pushing an agenda, as identified by several editors who have never even been involved with each other before. You attempted to strip Anglo-Irish identities via a MOS policy which is against NPOV, RS and is COI. Period. Instead of acting all mouth, why not try WP:ECCN, and us "British PV pushers" will come make an official gesture instead of having to deal with your back hand shenanigans, especially using "MOS" as an excuse to edit articles under false pretenses. Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 19:27, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Canada?
In various parts of the discussion above, people assert that people born in Ireland post-Act of Union were British. This seems to be based on either a retroactive application of British nationality law (no such laws existed at the time in question, for many people talked about), an unsourced assertion that "British" as a general adjective applies to the people in question, or the fact that people who were "British subjects" were well, just that. The first seems to be right out, as does the second really. So we're left with the third. However everyone born in a British dominion was also a British subject, so I'm assuming there are no objections to me changing the lead of articles about any Canadian people born in Canada when it was a dominion to "British"? Or "Canadian-born British" maybe? If that's what you're doing to Ireland articles on the grounds the people were British subjects, there can't be any objections to doing the same for Canada articles right? 2 lines of K303 13:13, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
- Isn't there a rule about being a dick just to prove a point? The fact is that the average English speaker equates Irish and British (at certain historical moments) far more readily than Irish and Canadian. Do what is useful and constructive, not what proves a 'point'.Malick78 (talk) 13:27, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
- You erroneously assume I was actually planning to do that, instead of using the proposal to demonstrate the ridiculousness of the "if they were British citizens, call them British in the lead" arguments. 2 lines of K303 13:30, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Second mention of Republic of Ireland
I am working on the article Gallon in which the effect of an EU directive is discussed. My proposed text is something like "The EU directive affects both the United Kingdom and the Republic ot Ireland. The Republic's response was .... and the United Kingdom's response was ..." . Is this acceptable; should I use just "Ireland" or always stick to the "Republic of Ireland"? Martinvl (talk) 16:58, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- In this case it should be clear that we are dealing with states, so the first reference should be to Ireland and any further references just to Ireland. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 17:47, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- Ditto. It is clear in this instance that states are being talked about so, Ireland should be used. Aside from that, as no error can come about through misinterpretation. What is being spoken about applies is true for both Ireland-the-state and Ireland-the-island.
- I don't think that referring to "the Republic" is appropriate ever on Wikipedia. We from the UK and Ireland are familiar with it as a euphemism, but for an international audience, I don't think it is appropriate. --RA (talk) 18:28, 1 December 2011 (UTC)