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Flag and sub-national flag icon usage
Should flag icons of sub national and national countries be used in sister city sections to provide understanding of the location of the city? Jacsam2 (talk) 19:20, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- No, they shouldn't be used. Since we can't assume they are known and easily recognizable to our readers, they simply don't do what you want them to do: "provide understanding". By the way, there is also no general need to include subnational regions etc. in the first place, even in text, because those units will often be unknown to readers too: "Erfurt, Germany" is fine; "Erfurt, Thuringia, Germany" would be more of a distraction than a help to most. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:43, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- No, they should not be used, because they overemphasize nationality, add no value, are distracting rather than helpful, and encourage lame edit wars (which flag to use for Edinburgh or Cardiff?) and because all the many times this has been discussed there is never a consensus for their use for these exact reasons. --John (talk) 07:53, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, they should be used because they show the country and the area of the country that the sister city is in. Also, the name of the region/country is alway placed next to it, so they are recognizable. (IE Funchal) I am always careful to avoid use of non-free images, and have removed all that I formerly added. Finaly, I would not simply list the region, but would put it in the table form. The icons could not be a distraction, either, because they are so small (24px). Jacsam2 (talk) 18:04, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- No Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Icons#Do_not_use_subnational_flags_without_direct_relevance Gnevin (talk) 12:46, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- No Don't see any compelling reason to emphasis a particular field with the addition of a flag that majority of users won't even recognise. Mo ainm~Talk 16:48, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- No we use words, not icons. Rich Farmbrough, 20:41, 23 October 2011 (UTC).
- sub-national entities: clearly no, they help nothing much: most are not recognizable by most readers and there is no point in teaching (no one is expected to know thousands of local flags). National entities, neutral leaning on no; most are recognizable by most readers, that is good, graphical information is also good, care should be taken to avoid excessive weight to some kind of information, thus the 'leaning on no' - Nabla (talk) 22:19, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- For national entities, in a list or table, I'm neutral, for slightly different reasons to nabla - I don't want to unduly emphasise nationality, but real-world usage sometimes (not always) includes flags on street signs that list twin cities &c. However, if a flag is to be used in the article, then it must be accompanied by the country name. For sub-national entities, no. For places mentioned in prose, no. bobrayner (talk) 14:37, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yes Many sister cities are chosen because of the 'so-called' "sub-national" country - its sovereign state irrelevant e.g. Bethlehem / Glasgow. Bethlehem Municipality note Glasgow's country as Scotland; Heidenheim / Newport Stadt Heidenheim noted as Newport (Wales) since 1981; Kutaisi / Newport twinning assn “why did they choose Newport? An important factor, I’m told, was that Newport is a Welsh city. The Georgians were very conscious of their geo/political relationship with Russia within the Soviet Union and they saw a possible parallel in Wales’ relationship with England. They perceived other similarities between Wales and Georgia. The two countries are similar in size and population, both are mountainous with their own distinctive language and culture and, furthermore, both are strongholds of rugby, a sport which has a considerable following in Kutaisi.”; Nantes / Cardiff Ville de Nantes “Les accords de jumelage et coopération, Cardiff (Pays de Galles)” uses Y ddraig goch, no Union Flag; Hordaland County / Cardiff, Orkney and Edinburgh County Council notes: Orkney, Scotland; Cardiff, Wales; Lower-Normandy, France; Thuringia, Germany; and Edinburgh, Scotland; Stuttgart / Cardiff “2005 hatte Stuttgarts walisische Partnerstadt Cardiff gleich mehrere Gründe zum Feiern: Sie beging das 50-Jahr-Jubiläum als Hauptstadt von Wales und die Stadterhebung vor 100 Jahren. Darüber feierten Cardiff und Stuttgart das 50-jährige Bestehen ihrer Städtepartnerschaft.” - “Stuttgart's Welsh twin city of Cardiff has several reasons to celebrate in 2005: the 50th anniversary as the capital of Wales and the city collection 100 years ago. Cardiff and Stuttgart also celebrated the 50th anniversary of their twinning.
That some people do not recognise a flag should not change whether or not it is displayed. This is an encyclopaedia. Users should expect to encounter information that is new to them. That is Wikipedia's raison d'être. Daicaregos (talk) 19:28, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Comment Sub-national refers to city ,provinces and other similar not the likes of Scotland and Wales Gnevin (talk) 11:00, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, good ... though that isn't my experience on this website (see List of national anthems, where the national anthems of Scotland and Wales are excluded). Are you implying you approve of displaying flag icons for Scotland and Wales then Gnevin? :) Daicaregos (talk) 11:58, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- This guideline deliberately remains vague about what is a state. Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Icons#Use_of_flags_for_non-sovereign_states_and_nations it depends on the local consensus Gnevin (talk) 13:23, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- It also depends on context. Statehood and nationality aren't all-or-nothing things (and many terrible problems have come from the assumption that they are, along with the assumption that a person or a piece of land must be labelled with a single nationality). Places like Scotland and Wales have some but not all of the typical attributes of a separate nationality. People might support a Welsh rugby team but they don't carry Welsh passports; they can sing a Welsh anthem but they don't pay Welsh income tax. And so on. In contexts where Wales is meaningfully separate (for instance, the rugby team or an AM) then it may be reasonable for wikipedia to use a "welsh" label; in contexts where it isn't (for instance, the nationality of a sculptress or a business) then it's more sensible for wikipedia to use a "british" label.
- This guideline deliberately remains vague about what is a state. Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Icons#Use_of_flags_for_non-sovereign_states_and_nations it depends on the local consensus Gnevin (talk) 13:23, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, good ... though that isn't my experience on this website (see List of national anthems, where the national anthems of Scotland and Wales are excluded). Are you implying you approve of displaying flag icons for Scotland and Wales then Gnevin? :) Daicaregos (talk) 11:58, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- No. Flags should not be used due to the MOS. And why include country flag in sister-city info? Irrelevant, distracting, pointless. --Merbabu (talk) 11:52, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- No. I can't see any good reason to change the existing MoS on this, and, in the case of the non-sovereign states, I can see that it would be more likely to lead to edit-warring than anything else. If it's really relevant for some reason, it would be better to use text to say so, rather than use a flag that will only lead to confusion. Anaxial (talk) 21:53, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Comment, use only sovereign state flags. GoodDay (talk) 17:36, 10 November 2011 (UTC)- No The sister city sections are of dubious importance and no rationale has been provided to assert why they need to be emphasized. I say "no" because this is the default action. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:59, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, that would be useful for those who know the flags and would not for those who don't, thus it won't harm anyone. The cluttering factor (which I would recognise as the only concern actually worth discussion here) is not that huge, as the country flags in question don't occupy much space and normally don't catch the idle eye. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 09:21, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
- No. They just draw unwarranted attention to such relatively unimportant sections and encourage the lazy presentation of the information in list form rather than in full sentences that give important additional information. When you scan over a random city's article, in many cases what catches your eyes first is the list of sister cities. That makes no sense because this information is only barely noteworthy. Hans Adler 12:07, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
- No. I've been in a few spats over which flags to use in infoboxes over the years & in retrospect the spats were of no benefit to the articles. GoodDay (talk) 04:41, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, per Jacsam, Daicaregos, and Czarkoff. Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty | Averted crashes 20:03, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
- Why? None of them have really provided a rationale, merely saying (falsely in my view) that they "do no harm". Is there an actual reason that you think we should adorn our articles this way? The absence of one may cause your opinion to be discounted by the closer otherwise. --John (talk) 20:11, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
- No: It's distracting visual noise like almost all uses of such icons is. Virtually no one but locals is going to recognize the city flag of Manchester or whatever, so the flags have zero navigational purpose. Note that the "anti-subnational" rationales presented here do not apply against the flags of constituent countries (England, Scotland, Wales) of the United Kingdom, but do apply to states/provinces/counties of the US, Canada, England, etc. The UK is a weird case, because it is in many ways a supranational entity, like the United Arab Emirates or the former USSR. This debate should not be taken as any kind of sub rosa attack against using separate flags for England, etc., were flags are considered appropriate and where separate flags are typically used, as in many (not all) sporting contexts. The UK issue simply isn't relevant. But I know that absent a comment like this, someone will later dredge this discussion up out of the archives in a perennial attack on the handling of UK constituent countries again. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ Contribs. 03:50, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
A question
I know in international sports articles, it's customary to use flags (which I agree with); however, what is the usefulness of flags in articles like Dallas Mavericks all-time roster? The Mavericks are an NBA team, there's no international competition; all they do is place an unnecessary emphasis on the players' nationalities, which are totally meaningless because they're playing in an American league. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:22, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
- Playing in an American league doesn't change the fact that different sporting nationalities are known for different skill sets. Certain countries are known for producing certain types of players. I am not as familiar with this in basketball but its definitely true for many other sports. -DJSasso (talk) 17:28, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
- MOS:FLAG states "Flags should never indicate the player's nationality in a non-sporting sense; flags should only indicate the sportsperson's national squad/team or representative nationality." I see no indication in that article that all these people (especially the Americans) played for their national teams. For the players who did play for their national squads I suppose the flag could be included but there would need to be a note explaining why the flag was there. Ultimately I just don't see the necessity for including this information anyway (an interested reader can click the player's name and see if he played for the national team). SQGibbon (talk) 18:22, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
- Well, I'm not trying to create a new standard with flags here, I'm just following the existing format in articles that has been thoroughly reviewed and been promoted to Featured List status, such as: Charlotte Bobcats all-time roster, List of Los Angeles Lakers first and second round draft picks, 2008 NBA Draft, all List of National Basketball Association awards articles, List of Detroit Red Wings players, List of Manchester United F.C. players, List of FC Barcelona players, etc. All of them are similar, list of players, not playing in international competition, but have flags in the nationalities column. Personally, I'm not a fan of flags either but I prefer to follow an existing format for consistency. Anyway, the MOS:FLAG does not indicates that to have a flag, a player has to represent their national team, because it states that "If a sportsperson has not competed at the international level, then the eligibility rules of the international sport governing body should be used." These American players are only eligible to play for USA, and plenty of them did play for USA, but only during college and mostly in youth levels. — MT (talk) 01:54, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- No worries, this is just the D part of BRD ;) I might just be a little hypersensitive to this, given the struggle to remove what were plainly non-compliant flags in longevity-related articles, so I leave it to others to decide what to do here. My view is already pretty clear. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:01, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- As will come as no surprise to previous participants in discussions of WP:FLAGBIO, BNL and I come to this with the same background and end up in the same place.
- "Flag icons should never be used to indicate a person's place of birth, residence, or death, as flags imply citizenship and/or nationality. Many people born abroad due to traveling parents never become citizens of the countries in which they were born and do not claim such a nationality. For example, actor Bruce Willis was born on a U.S. military base in Germany, so putting a German flag in his infobox, for any reason, might lead the casual reader to assume he is or was a German citizen. Similarly, many people die on foreign soil due to war, vacation accidents, etc., and many people emigrate, without any effect on their actual citizenship or nationality."
- "Well, I'm not trying to create a new standard with flags here, I'm just following the existing format in articles that has been thoroughly reviewed and been promoted to Featured List status..." seems, to me, a poor reply to the plain language of WP:FLAGBIO. It seems, to me, simply a more refined version of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, which is small beer indeed. David in DC (talk) 05:06, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- No worries, this is just the D part of BRD ;) I might just be a little hypersensitive to this, given the struggle to remove what were plainly non-compliant flags in longevity-related articles, so I leave it to others to decide what to do here. My view is already pretty clear. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:01, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Well, I'm not trying to create a new standard with flags here, I'm just following the existing format in articles that has been thoroughly reviewed and been promoted to Featured List status, such as: Charlotte Bobcats all-time roster, List of Los Angeles Lakers first and second round draft picks, 2008 NBA Draft, all List of National Basketball Association awards articles, List of Detroit Red Wings players, List of Manchester United F.C. players, List of FC Barcelona players, etc. All of them are similar, list of players, not playing in international competition, but have flags in the nationalities column. Personally, I'm not a fan of flags either but I prefer to follow an existing format for consistency. Anyway, the MOS:FLAG does not indicates that to have a flag, a player has to represent their national team, because it states that "If a sportsperson has not competed at the international level, then the eligibility rules of the international sport governing body should be used." These American players are only eligible to play for USA, and plenty of them did play for USA, but only during college and mostly in youth levels. — MT (talk) 01:54, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Those stuffs do exist, and those lists have been reviewed by numerous editors, and now considered as the best lists in Wikipedia. As far as I know, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument might be valid or invalid depending on the situation, and I believe my argument above are valid, considering that I'm comparing it with some of the best contents in Wikipedia, not with some random unreviewed/unreferenced list. Furthermore, international players are often highlighted by the NBA itself (example here) and the media (example here). I'll be happy to remove the flags if there is a site-wide or project-wide consensus on removing the flags. — MT (talk) 06:23, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- There are several points to address here: 1) I believe it's better for an article to follow the guidelines than it is for that article to be consistent with articles that violate the guidelines. I think this is a pretty common view among editors. The other articles should be changed (we went through this with MMA articles removing flag icons from infoboxes and record tables). 2) That some featured content that appears to be in conflict with guidelines justifies violating those same guidelines seems to run counter to the entire Wikipedia process of building consensus. The guidelines are a result of community consensus and there's no way that the people who work on featured lists/articles should be able to change the guidelines through their actions. I know you didn't state it exactly like this but I think that is the consequence of your argument — the featured lists project, through precedents, can rewrite community consensus. 3) The names of the countries are already there so what is the purpose of the flags? They appear redundant. 4) Why is nationality even mentioned in this article? The article is a list of players who have played for the Mavs and for some tables their statistics. Nationality (or their national team representation) is not relevant to them having played for the Mavs or how many points they scored. If the article had a section on players not from America then listing the country would obviously be required but then the flag would still add nothing and point 5 (below) would still apply. 5) If the flag icons are used then they should be done as an indication of the national teams the players played for. I'm guessing that the vast majority of American players never played for the national team and so, based on this reasoning, those players should not have flag icons. Also, there should be a note stating that the flags indicate the national team played for (see the article for an example). SQGibbon (talk) 07:06, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for a constructive and sensible comment rather than the bland comment quoting MOS:FLAG. 1) and 2) If the guidelines are barely followed by a lot of editors and reviewers who are trying to produce the best content for wikipedia, then there is something wrong. Either the editors are not aware of the guidelines or they find that guidelines are flawed. The featured lists project shouldn't rewrite community consensus, but it could if the guidelines are repeatedly violated and resulted in a belief that the guidelines need to be changed. There is a lot to be done to enforce the MOS:FLAG there. FYI, WP:NBA already took a step in removing flags from the current roster template. 3) It's just a habit in wikipedia, a column with country names often includes flags. I can barely find an article with country column that does not have flags. 4) International player in NBA are often highlighted by the league itself and the media, therefore I believe it must be at least mentioned somewhere in the article. However, I agree that there is no need to emphasize American nationality for the majority of the players. I've removed the flags and create a separate section for international players. 5) From what I interpret from MOS:FLAG#Use of flags for sportspersons is that MOS:FLAG never forbid using a flag for a sportsperson who has not represent his country. It's simply stated that the flags should always indicate what country that the sportsperson is eligible to represent. About the Manchester United example, I assume you're talking about the First-team squad section. The note "Flags indicate national team as has been defined under FIFA eligibility rules" looks fine in big teams where most players have represented their country. But in smaller clubs, it looks ambiguous. Casual readers might think that these players have played for national teams. The flags on those football articles are not accompanied with country names which also violates MOS:FLAG.
- Anyway, I've removed the nationality column and the flags, thanks to SQGibbon for the suggestion about a separate section. So there is nothing more to discuss here. If you guys really concerned about the excessive use of flags, there is a lot of better things to do rather than nitpicking on an article that is barely a day old and is still a work in progress. For a start, some Wikipedia:Featured list candidates could use an oppose vote if they violates MOS:FLAG. Other thing to do is to enforce MOS:FLAG on some wikiprojects, such as WP:FOOTBALL and WP:MOTOR, who use flags in plenty of articles, in players list, in managers/coaches list, in transactions list, in season articles, in the driver infobox, in the career statistics, in the champions list, and so on. — MT (talk) 17:34, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Actually guidelines are supposed to be descriptive not prescriptive. If the majority of wikipedia isn't following the guideline that means the guideline is out of wack and needs to be changed to reflect reality. Guidelines aren't rules to be followed, they are descriptions of what the community does in certain situations which is supposed to lead you towards what you should do. So if the majority of the wiki is not following MOSFLAG as it is written, it needs to be rewritten to follow what most of the community is doing. -DJSasso (talk) 21:29, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- Nice theory, but in actual practice most of our guidelines are in fact prescriptive (even proscriptive) and are explicitly intended to provide a clear default direction on an issue, in the face of sheer "do whatever the heck you want" chaos. I frequently see arguments like this raised to support some major change to (usually outright deletion of) some MOS or other guideline point, based on the notion that "the majority" don't do what the guideline says. I have yet to ever see a single case, including this one, where such a claim has been demonstrated with actual numbers, and even if it were, WP:NOT#DEMOCRACY. A sheer head count of obeying vs. disobeying editors or edit count of conforming vs. nonconforming cases is likely to show us that a large number of editors are sloppy on various points, but that doesn't mean that MOS should stop advising standards. Many MOS points are somewhat esoteric and require some background on their formulation to fully understand, with the consequence that many editors simply ignore them, to be cleaned up after by "gnome" editors later. For example, probably a majority of editors do no use
between a measurement and its unit, as in4 mm
. Counting all of those editors plus those who don't space it at all, plus those who do not use standard unit symbols, plus those who spell out low numbers even when used in measurements, plus [misc. other cases go here], probably an overwhelming majority of editors in fact ignore WP:MOSNUM's rules about presentation of measurements. That is not reason to delete them. Various editors and bots can clean up after messy editors. It's more important to have standards and "enforce" them with cleanup editing than to have no standards and chaos, or to elevate these standards to policy and browbeat other editors about it and chase them off the system. This MOS subpage is no different. No one is going to keel over and die because some well-meaning editor who doesn't understand that flag icons are usually not actually helpful and often lead to rancorous disputes put them in a bunch of infoboxes. We just clean up after them and move on. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ Contribs. 03:27, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
- Nice theory, but in actual practice most of our guidelines are in fact prescriptive (even proscriptive) and are explicitly intended to provide a clear default direction on an issue, in the face of sheer "do whatever the heck you want" chaos. I frequently see arguments like this raised to support some major change to (usually outright deletion of) some MOS or other guideline point, based on the notion that "the majority" don't do what the guideline says. I have yet to ever see a single case, including this one, where such a claim has been demonstrated with actual numbers, and even if it were, WP:NOT#DEMOCRACY. A sheer head count of obeying vs. disobeying editors or edit count of conforming vs. nonconforming cases is likely to show us that a large number of editors are sloppy on various points, but that doesn't mean that MOS should stop advising standards. Many MOS points are somewhat esoteric and require some background on their formulation to fully understand, with the consequence that many editors simply ignore them, to be cleaned up after by "gnome" editors later. For example, probably a majority of editors do no use
- Actually guidelines are supposed to be descriptive not prescriptive. If the majority of wikipedia isn't following the guideline that means the guideline is out of wack and needs to be changed to reflect reality. Guidelines aren't rules to be followed, they are descriptions of what the community does in certain situations which is supposed to lead you towards what you should do. So if the majority of the wiki is not following MOSFLAG as it is written, it needs to be rewritten to follow what most of the community is doing. -DJSasso (talk) 21:29, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Chinese Taipei or Taiwan/ROC for sportspersons?
- Q: In a club/team's squad/roster template, which flag should be used to indicate players from Taiwan who compete under the name of Chinese Taipei in certain sports, or ?
Check out the examples of current situation:
- Basketball: Taiwan_Beer_(basketball)#2010-11_Roster(Taiwan flag) Template:Zhejiang_lions_roster(Chinese Taipei flag)
- Football: Tatung_F.C.#Current_squad_and_staff(Taiwan flag) KV_Mechelen#Current_squad(Chinese Taipei flag)
--阿pp (talk) 20:25, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
- Do we have any evidence as to which flag they compete under? Go along with what sources say. If sources don't make it clear, or if there's some other possibility that a little flag picture would be either misleading or wrong, omit the little flag picture. bobrayner (talk) 21:12, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
- As in the case of football, FIFA recognize Chinese Taipei, not Taiwan(List_of_FIFA_country_codes), then is it incorrect to use Taiwan flag to indicate players as in Tatung_F.C.#Current_squad_and_staff? --阿pp (talk) 21:18, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
- if a sportsperson has represented a nation or has declared for a nation, then the national flag as determined by the sport governing body should be used (these can differ from countries' political national flags) or in other words use the flag the governing body use. See also WP:IMOS FLAGS and WP:RUFLAG Gnevin (talk) 11:15, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
- As in the case of football, FIFA recognize Chinese Taipei, not Taiwan(List_of_FIFA_country_codes), then is it incorrect to use Taiwan flag to indicate players as in Tatung_F.C.#Current_squad_and_staff? --阿pp (talk) 21:18, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Recent edits
The removal and restoration of two paragraphs of the guideline should be discussed. Primarily, there has been a claim that these two paragraphs were not initially discussed before their addition. If this is incorrect and their addition was discussed and agreed upon, can someone provide a link to that discussion please? Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:34, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
- The suspect line was added on May 14, 2011 right here. The archive it "should" be located in is this one. Maybe I missed it but I can't find it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:45, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- That was 6 months ago. There has been plenty of time and discussions since then. If you disagree with the wording you are encouraged to make your complaint here, but you can't claim "no consensus" 6 months later.--JOJ Hutton 00:54, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- Ridiculous. Maybe someone didn't see it. Editors try to sneak through lots of things in articles that get caught later. If there were discussions about adding something to this wikipedia manual of style then produce them. I know this isn't a wiki law or protocol but people look to these guidelines to help them out. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:21, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- How convenient. Any time anyone argues against this piece of the guideline, the reply is always "per MOSFLAG", and you, Jojhutton, spend a lot of time saying things like "Whether or not one finds a flag in the infobox distracting or not, consensus has come to the conclusion that they are." When in fact, it was added by that other guy with no consensus whatsoever. Nice work. I can claim "no consensus", because no discussion creating one has been produced. In fact, we appear to have the opposite. This guideline has no teeth whatsoever. Bretonbanquet (talk) 01:34, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- If you don't like it, then make a propsoal to change it. Until then, follow the MOS as it is currently written.--JOJ Hutton 01:39, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- I am. It doesn't say flags are prohibited in the infoboxes which I am concerned about, therefore they are not prohibited. Bretonbanquet (talk) 01:46, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- If you don't like it, then make a propsoal to change it. Until then, follow the MOS as it is currently written.--JOJ Hutton 01:39, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Well then take the time to read through WP:Consensus. I understand that sometimes things sneak through, but this hardly was the case here. First, this isn't some change that didn't get noticed. It was upheld again here, by PmAnderson, a user who knows this MOS front and back. Second, it isn't a change in the MOS, but a clarification, to make it more clear. Third, it is a clarification on flags in the infobox, and should be in the section on infoboxes. Also go read WP:DRNC. If you have a reason to revert, then state it in the edit summery, but don't simply revert because you feel that there was no consensus. There have also been two discussions on infobox flags since this was added and no one challenged the wording in this paragraph once, to the best of my knowledge--JOJ Hutton 01:37, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- So another editor also didn't like the sudden change and was hit with a ruler. It should have been removed right then and there and gone to debate but it didn't. The wording now is much more acidic in tone as opposed to a guideline for infoboxes. It's gone from discouraged to "unnecessarily distracting" with "undue prominence" and an additional rule of "should only be inserted in those cases where". Those things need some discussion "before" being added. I only read through this article every so often but with your multiple instances of mosflag additions to summaries I figured I better re-check what I had read at the beginning of the year. I found this bad addition and figured I must have missed the debate on putting it there. Low and behold there was none, which is fine and dandy, but if someone later disputes it I think it should be removed until talked about. Fyunck(click) (talk) 02:01, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- How convenient. Any time anyone argues against this piece of the guideline, the reply is always "per MOSFLAG", and you, Jojhutton, spend a lot of time saying things like "Whether or not one finds a flag in the infobox distracting or not, consensus has come to the conclusion that they are." When in fact, it was added by that other guy with no consensus whatsoever. Nice work. I can claim "no consensus", because no discussion creating one has been produced. In fact, we appear to have the opposite. This guideline has no teeth whatsoever. Bretonbanquet (talk) 01:34, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- Ridiculous. Maybe someone didn't see it. Editors try to sneak through lots of things in articles that get caught later. If there were discussions about adding something to this wikipedia manual of style then produce them. I know this isn't a wiki law or protocol but people look to these guidelines to help them out. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:21, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- That was 6 months ago. There has been plenty of time and discussions since then. If you disagree with the wording you are encouraged to make your complaint here, but you can't claim "no consensus" 6 months later.--JOJ Hutton 00:54, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- Nobody challenged the wording? How about when I did, here [1], and you replied directly to me simply by quoting the bloody guideline back at me? Found that consensus yet? The one you used in the above argument? Bretonbanquet (talk) 01:46, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- You don't have consensus to change it, just like you didn't before. All you want to do is keep your flags in your Formula One infoboxes, which are against the spirit of this MOS. I understand your desire to have those colorful, yet needlessly distracting flags in the infobox. They say nothing that is not already stated in words, but somehow you feel that are important. Important enough to continue to come here, looking for loopholes in the MOS, and stating that this guideline has no teeth whatsoever, in order to keep them. The line had to be drawn somewhere, and that is where it was drawn. If we let this slide then whats to stop flags being in any infobox? Whats the point of having an MOS, if Formula One, or Tennis articles decide to ignore it? Wikipedia would be an anarchy with no rules whatsoever.
- Yet, I'm fair, and contrary to popular opinion I am capable of compromising. If you have a proposal to make a change to this MOS, then please state it here, so it can be discussed.--JOJ Hutton 02:04, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- You do like to ignore it when someone directly challenges what you've said, leaving you with a difficult answer, don't you? You apparently don't understand why people want flags in infoboxes, because it has nothing to do with them being colourful. And there you go with the subjective and selective distraction element, which doesn't appear to have any consensus now, let alone logic. I don't have consensus to change it, just like there was no consensus to add it. I don't need to look for loopholes in the MOS, you could drive a bus through it. No, these flags don't add much beyond what is stated in words, but nor do the flags that you allow. Maybe you could tell me just what would be the problem with having flags in infoboxes, without resorting to the laughable distraction argument or the oh-so-conveniently-sidelined-when-we-feel-like-it argument that they add nothing. The world would still turn, we could still breathe the air, and Wikipedia would still function. The flags themselves aren't anywhere near as important as the principle, quite obviously: the principle being that I (and others) find it objectionable that a small number of editors (apparently a very small number) have taken it upon themselves to persistently inflict their preference regarding flags on to the entire encyclopedia, seemingly to the extent that a consensus isn't even required. Your mission against flags seems pretty bizarre from where I'm sitting, and it would be really nice to have it explained. If you don't want to do that, or actually respond to the points made, that's fine, of course. Note that the MOS is not being ignored, contrary to what you've said. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:50, 30 November 201
- I never got the feeling that you were challenging me personally, nor that anyone was challenging me. You were challenging the MOS. Nor do "I" "allow" any flag to be in a infobox. The MOS does makes exceptions, and those exceptions are written out. You should actually read it to find out what the acceptable exceptions are. There are not a small number of editors who are, how did you say it, "inflict(ing) our preference regarding flags on the entire encyclopedia".
- Yet, you seem to want some form of justification as to why this MOS even exists. Here examples of some pages before this MOS was written:
- The community decided that the flags were out of hand. This is obvious based on how this MOS evolved. If you don't feel that the MOS is fair because it makes exceptions for some type of articles and not for yours, then we should discuss removing the exceptions to make every article consistent.--JOJ Hutton 01:02, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- I was challenging you personally when you told me that nobody had challenged the MOS. Never mind that if it's a little convoluted. You seem to think the MOS is reasonable in making exceptions for some flags, ignoring criteria used to prohibit or dicourage other identical flags. That's what I'm trying to get at. Why do you think that's OK? Why do you say things like "You should actually read it"? Either you actually think I haven't read it at some point during this discussion, during which I have quoted bits of it at you, or you are trying to antagonise me. I'm not sure which makes you look worse. At no point when discussing these exceptions does the MOS state that the ones mentioned are the only exceptions, nor does it even imply it. It cites examples of exceptions, clearly implying that there are other exceptions besides the ones mentioned. Do you think that's clearly explained?
- No, I don't need any form of justification for the existence of the MOS. You appear to have dreamt that. I have removed enough unnecessary flags in my time to deserve an end to any suggestion that I'm trying to keep all flags. Obviously the flags were out of hand, and some of them still are. But when did the community decide to try to get rid of flags altogether, which is seemingly what you want? It would help if you actually admitted that, if it's true. If there's a consensus that decided all the flags were distracting, where is it? If there's a consensus that says all infobox flags should be removed, bar these wondrous exceptions, where is it? Why would I want to remove all the exceptions just because I feel the MOS is a poorly-written bag of contradictions? That just sounds like something you might want to do. I presume the exceptions do have a consensus, so why scrap it? How about doing something really revolutionary, like just making the bloody thing clearer, giving a list of places where it's OK to have flags, and places where they are flat-out prohibited, according to a consensus which we can actually see, rather than a mythical one? Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:57, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking an interest in icon usage, Bretonbanquet. As Jojhutton says, this MoS has evolved over a 5-year period and was a reaction to the ugly and distracting proliferation of flags on articles. You are free to contest the consensus of course, as you are free to argue against verifiability or the neutral point of view. One tip is that it is more likely to succeed if you can give an encyclopedic reason for your challenge, rather than relying on procedural arguments. Eventually, if you are unhappy enough with our processes and guidelines here, you have the option to leave and/or start a wiki of your own. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's the way it is. --John (talk) 21:30, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- If you'd read all the arguments I've given on this page, you'd find more than enough encyclopedic reasoning. You join the list of people who have no interest in addressing ANY of the points I've made, rather you just tell me, "This is how it is, like it or go away." Contest what consensus? I asked for the discussion to be produced showing where the consensus was agreed, and lo and behold, it doesn't exist. So what's to contest? If I made any kind of proposal to change anything, why would anyone of you then break the habit of a lifetime and actually answer my points? The fact is that the MOS does not support everything that certain editors are using it for. That is a fact, and no amount of cheap accusations of wikilawyering are going to change it. Until any of you can dredge up a consensus, even another imaginary one, there's nothing to change it to what you'd like it to say. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:56, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- However the lines per this original query are not consensus and not neutral. They were simply added with no talk at all and should be removed if questioned. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:54, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- But not 6 months after the fact. Not sure why you think it shouldn't go in. All you keep saying is that it was added without consensus (Read WP:DNRC) and now you seem to think its not neutral. This is an MOS not a main space article, what is not neutral about it? --JOJ Hutton 01:10, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- It was removed very soon after for the same reasons yet someone put it back. If something gets added with a neutral tone without discussing it's one thing. When something like this gets added it's another thing. It should have been talked about. And I don't buy your 6 month stuff either. If something was done wrong it doesn't matter if it's 6 months, 6 days or 6 years, it should be corrected. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:21, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- But not 6 months after the fact. Not sure why you think it shouldn't go in. All you keep saying is that it was added without consensus (Read WP:DNRC) and now you seem to think its not neutral. This is an MOS not a main space article, what is not neutral about it? --JOJ Hutton 01:10, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking an interest in icon usage, Bretonbanquet. As Jojhutton says, this MoS has evolved over a 5-year period and was a reaction to the ugly and distracting proliferation of flags on articles. You are free to contest the consensus of course, as you are free to argue against verifiability or the neutral point of view. One tip is that it is more likely to succeed if you can give an encyclopedic reason for your challenge, rather than relying on procedural arguments. Eventually, if you are unhappy enough with our processes and guidelines here, you have the option to leave and/or start a wiki of your own. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's the way it is. --John (talk) 21:30, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- You do like to ignore it when someone directly challenges what you've said, leaving you with a difficult answer, don't you? You apparently don't understand why people want flags in infoboxes, because it has nothing to do with them being colourful. And there you go with the subjective and selective distraction element, which doesn't appear to have any consensus now, let alone logic. I don't have consensus to change it, just like there was no consensus to add it. I don't need to look for loopholes in the MOS, you could drive a bus through it. No, these flags don't add much beyond what is stated in words, but nor do the flags that you allow. Maybe you could tell me just what would be the problem with having flags in infoboxes, without resorting to the laughable distraction argument or the oh-so-conveniently-sidelined-when-we-feel-like-it argument that they add nothing. The world would still turn, we could still breathe the air, and Wikipedia would still function. The flags themselves aren't anywhere near as important as the principle, quite obviously: the principle being that I (and others) find it objectionable that a small number of editors (apparently a very small number) have taken it upon themselves to persistently inflict their preference regarding flags on to the entire encyclopedia, seemingly to the extent that a consensus isn't even required. Your mission against flags seems pretty bizarre from where I'm sitting, and it would be really nice to have it explained. If you don't want to do that, or actually respond to the points made, that's fine, of course. Note that the MOS is not being ignored, contrary to what you've said. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:50, 30 November 201
- Yet, I'm fair, and contrary to popular opinion I am capable of compromising. If you have a proposal to make a change to this MOS, then please state it here, so it can be discussed.--JOJ Hutton 02:04, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- You don't have consensus to change it, just like you didn't before. All you want to do is keep your flags in your Formula One infoboxes, which are against the spirit of this MOS. I understand your desire to have those colorful, yet needlessly distracting flags in the infobox. They say nothing that is not already stated in words, but somehow you feel that are important. Important enough to continue to come here, looking for loopholes in the MOS, and stating that this guideline has no teeth whatsoever, in order to keep them. The line had to be drawn somewhere, and that is where it was drawn. If we let this slide then whats to stop flags being in any infobox? Whats the point of having an MOS, if Formula One, or Tennis articles decide to ignore it? Wikipedia would be an anarchy with no rules whatsoever.
- Nobody challenged the wording? How about when I did, here [1], and you replied directly to me simply by quoting the bloody guideline back at me? Found that consensus yet? The one you used in the above argument? Bretonbanquet (talk) 01:46, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
First off it was added without discussion and was removed. At that point it should not have been readded without talking...period. It was readded without talk and I finally caught it and corrected it but you seem not to like that. Many around here would have problems with all of the added wording and we have to assume that 99.99% of editors don't watch this page regularly. Of highest bias are the terms "unnecessarily distracting" "undue prominence to one field" and "should only be inserted in infoboxes in those cases where they convey information in addition to the text." I left in the "undue prominence" part as a compromise (though it was still never talked about) and then I see someone else smoothed over the writing to polish it. It's much better now...to the point that while I'm not exuberant it's there at all without discussion, I wouldn't bring it up again. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:51, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- It still hasn't been shown what the addition of a flag adds that is not already conveyed in the text. All it does is give undue prominence to the nationality field. Mo ainm~Talk 22:49, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- At least in tennis it seems to be quite important. News articles are always saying the players' name and nationality hand in hand. Where they play Davis or Fed Cup, Olympics, the Majors all say name and country. Readers may find it quite helpful to see it right in the infobox instead of just a list name that could be lost with other things. The heavy bold of the name up top helps with one aspect and a flag icon helps with the other. I wouldn't say it conveys more info, it augments and helps the info that's there so our readers can easily find what's important. But my only point here was really the addition of the text without discussion. It was quite harsh in it's wording and very important for tennis articles. Maybe after extensive talk , back and forth, give and take, it would have stayed in by heavy consensus... or maybe it would have been dumped completely. No chance was given for either outcome and that was what's unfair and wrong imho. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:17, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- What makes you think it gives undue prominence to the nationality field? Why do you think these arguments only apply to certain flags? Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:58, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- Because beside the nationality field there is a flag so it is given prominence over other fields in the infobox. Mo ainm~Talk 23:06, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- It may give slightly more prominence over other fields... but whether it's undue is a matter of opinion. And "unnecessarily distracting" is really going too far. Whether they want them or not I don't feel most editors would find them distracting. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:22, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- Exactly, what makes it "undue"? I think any increase in prominence for that field is minuscule; it's just something that sometimes goes with the nationality field. I don't find it in the least bit distracting. Is there any evidence that a majority of editors / readers find a flag distracting? And again, why do these arguments not apply to the other infobox flags in the cited examples of "acceptable infobox flag use"? Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:39, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- Didn't we have an RfC on this a little while ago? Personally, I argued - and still do - that many uses of flagicons put undue emphasis on nationality. However, I don't mind one in an infobox as long as it's accurate, informative, and not misleading:
- No anachronistic flags.
- No flags for things which don't have a meaningful nationality (ie. scientific theories, organisations) or where the national/ethnic/linguistic overlap is a source of strife and NPOV problems (ie. languages), or where some subject just happens to be within one country's boundaries in some sense but isn't particularly national (ie. no flags for train crashes, rivers, or manufactured goods). I don't understand the urge to extend national labels to so many things which didn't have them before.
- No subnational flags or supranational flags except where it's absolutely clear that the subject represents (or has other very strong ties to) that territory rather than the usual national flag. (I could see the point in putting a saltire in the infobox of a scottish "national" sports team; but none of the players carry scottish passports, do they?)
- In cases of dual nationals or other kinds of flag-ambiguity, no flag at all is better than any of the other solutions that wikipedians are likely to edit-war between.
- It's easy for people tend to think overly literally about these things; we should rule out any opportunities to mislead lay readers. I've seen some people photoshop composite flags to represent a sports team comprising people with different nationalities, and others use the UN flag as a synonym for "international" or "foreign". Some editors put the flag of registry on a ship article even though it's not the state where the ship was built, owned, or operated.
- Other than those objections, I don't mind a flag in an infobox. :-) bobrayner (talk) 01:02, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- Other than a relatively minor quibble with the initial "undue emphasis" point, I agree with everything Bobrayner has said. Bretonbanquet (talk) 01:10, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- So you will remove the flag from the Adam Carroll article then, as you agree that In cases of dual nationals or other kinds of flag-ambiguity, no flag at all is better than any of the other solutions that wikipedians are likely to edit-war between. Mo ainm~Talk 08:44, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- Is this still dragging on? There's no "flag ambiguity" in that particular – tedious – case. JonCTalk 17:44, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed. For those of us who knew anything about the subject, there was no flag ambiguity at Adam Carroll. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:37, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- So to an elite chosen few there is no ambiguity but everyone else there is, so maybe you will strike your support above and say if a clique see no ambiguity then there is none. Mo ainm~Talk 18:45, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- Who is "everyone else"? Are you referring to those people, usually IPs, who regularly change the nationality of Northern Irish people to Irish? That's not ambiguity, it's just vandalism, usually proved by their other edits. Or are you claiming that the nationality of anyone born in Northern Ireland is ambiguous? Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:52, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- Aren't quite a large proportion of NI people dual nationals or at least entitled to a second passport &c? That, combined with the obvious real-world national dispute, looks like a recipe for trouble - and editwarring over little flag pictures is exactly the kind of thing I'd like to avoid. bobrayner (talk) 19:08, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- That's right, but in this particular case, we have a motor racing infobox, and in every motor racing infobox, nationality is as stipulated by the FIA, the sport's governing body. This leaves no room for ambiguity, at least for most of us. The edit warring generally centred around the nationality itself anyway, and removal of the flag would not have solved the problem. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:28, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- Aren't quite a large proportion of NI people dual nationals or at least entitled to a second passport &c? That, combined with the obvious real-world national dispute, looks like a recipe for trouble - and editwarring over little flag pictures is exactly the kind of thing I'd like to avoid. bobrayner (talk) 19:08, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- Who is "everyone else"? Are you referring to those people, usually IPs, who regularly change the nationality of Northern Irish people to Irish? That's not ambiguity, it's just vandalism, usually proved by their other edits. Or are you claiming that the nationality of anyone born in Northern Ireland is ambiguous? Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:52, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- So to an elite chosen few there is no ambiguity but everyone else there is, so maybe you will strike your support above and say if a clique see no ambiguity then there is none. Mo ainm~Talk 18:45, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed. For those of us who knew anything about the subject, there was no flag ambiguity at Adam Carroll. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:37, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- Is this still dragging on? There's no "flag ambiguity" in that particular – tedious – case. JonCTalk 17:44, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- So you will remove the flag from the Adam Carroll article then, as you agree that In cases of dual nationals or other kinds of flag-ambiguity, no flag at all is better than any of the other solutions that wikipedians are likely to edit-war between. Mo ainm~Talk 08:44, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- Other than a relatively minor quibble with the initial "undue emphasis" point, I agree with everything Bobrayner has said. Bretonbanquet (talk) 01:10, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- Didn't we have an RfC on this a little while ago? Personally, I argued - and still do - that many uses of flagicons put undue emphasis on nationality. However, I don't mind one in an infobox as long as it's accurate, informative, and not misleading:
- Exactly, what makes it "undue"? I think any increase in prominence for that field is minuscule; it's just something that sometimes goes with the nationality field. I don't find it in the least bit distracting. Is there any evidence that a majority of editors / readers find a flag distracting? And again, why do these arguments not apply to the other infobox flags in the cited examples of "acceptable infobox flag use"? Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:39, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- It may give slightly more prominence over other fields... but whether it's undue is a matter of opinion. And "unnecessarily distracting" is really going too far. Whether they want them or not I don't feel most editors would find them distracting. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:22, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- Because beside the nationality field there is a flag so it is given prominence over other fields in the infobox. Mo ainm~Talk 23:06, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
See the talk page of the article valid sources say he is Irish and raced for Ireland and the FIA regulations are also ambiguous regarding nationality. Mo ainm~Talk 22:22, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- This is what I mean when I say some people don't understand it. It has been explained to you ad nauseam on the talk page that driving for Team Ireland means nothing in terms of a driver's nationality. Drivers of all nationalities were free to race for A1 Team Ireland or any other A1GP team. It's like playing football for Liverpool - it doesn't make you English. There is no source anywhere to state that Carroll is from the Republic of Ireland. The FIA regulations are quite obviously not ambiguous in any aspect - they are a highly developed set of regulations for one of the most litigious sports in the world. Please feel free to reproduce these "ambiguous" regulations at the relevant talk page, where the discussion ground to a halt weeks ago. No need to be flogging a dead horse in an inappropriate place. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:40, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- Not the place for this discussion but it was never claimed he was from the ROI. And they are posted on the talk page of the article.Mo ainm~Talk 22:49, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed, and since you accept he's not from the ROI, the discussion is over. Unless you are claiming he's from some other country? Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:52, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- Add both counties as far as I care, but adding a flag doesn't say it any more than simple text. It just doesn't need to be there. And why does everyone whining about their flags, keep coming here to make the argument that nationality is important in their particular sport? Add the nationality, you win that argument. Every time someone keeps bringing it up, it just shows that they have no idea what they are talking about. If nationality is important, add it. But adding a flag doesn't say it twice. It's unnecessary and not needed. The information is already presented in text.--JOJ Hutton 01:18, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- It's not possible to add both nationalities, even if he were a dual citizen, as a driver can only represent one country. Arguments have been made many times in response to your points, many of them just as valid as yours. As for your last point, do you advocate removal of all flags across the encyclopedia, since no flag adds extra information according to your argument? Bretonbanquet (talk) 01:26, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- If its going to make you happy, then remove em all, or do you think that there should be exceptions.--JOJ Hutton 01:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- There's no consensus to remove them all, even if I wanted to do so, which I don't. I just don't have a problem with flags in infoboxes (or anywhere else) provided they are used sparingly, and with common sense. If flagicons are to be prohibited in certain infoboxes like the company infobox, actors, films, musicians, trucks, buildings, trees, rivers etc (seems sensible to me), then I think there should be a very clear list displaying which infoboxes are OK for flags and which are not. Then the MOS would be clear and unambiguous. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:05, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- Exactly the guideline goes out of its way to make it clear that they are not prohibited. So trying to remove them from everything like JOJ seems to like doing is ridiculous. Especially in situations where there is clearly a wiki-wide common practice of using them. Nevermind changes like this when the MOS specifically says that uses of flags to indicate sporting nationality is ok. This guideline only indicates that we shouldn't over use them, not that we should never use them. -DJSasso (talk) 21:32, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- There's no consensus to remove them all, even if I wanted to do so, which I don't. I just don't have a problem with flags in infoboxes (or anywhere else) provided they are used sparingly, and with common sense. If flagicons are to be prohibited in certain infoboxes like the company infobox, actors, films, musicians, trucks, buildings, trees, rivers etc (seems sensible to me), then I think there should be a very clear list displaying which infoboxes are OK for flags and which are not. Then the MOS would be clear and unambiguous. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:05, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- If its going to make you happy, then remove em all, or do you think that there should be exceptions.--JOJ Hutton 01:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- It's not possible to add both nationalities, even if he were a dual citizen, as a driver can only represent one country. Arguments have been made many times in response to your points, many of them just as valid as yours. As for your last point, do you advocate removal of all flags across the encyclopedia, since no flag adds extra information according to your argument? Bretonbanquet (talk) 01:26, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- Add both counties as far as I care, but adding a flag doesn't say it any more than simple text. It just doesn't need to be there. And why does everyone whining about their flags, keep coming here to make the argument that nationality is important in their particular sport? Add the nationality, you win that argument. Every time someone keeps bringing it up, it just shows that they have no idea what they are talking about. If nationality is important, add it. But adding a flag doesn't say it twice. It's unnecessary and not needed. The information is already presented in text.--JOJ Hutton 01:18, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed, and since you accept he's not from the ROI, the discussion is over. Unless you are claiming he's from some other country? Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:52, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- Not the place for this discussion but it was never claimed he was from the ROI. And they are posted on the talk page of the article.Mo ainm~Talk 22:49, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- Whether there was originally a consensus discussion, or enough of one, is now moot, since this has turned into one, and consensus is clearly in favor of the language that had been stable for 6+ months. Being loud and repetitive about it doesn't change that. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ Contribs. 03:13, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Flag usage
On Talladega County, Alabama an editor is using the Flag of Ulster to represent Scots-Irish claiming that it is widely used I have asked for a citation but I believe this is just original research and is a being used to fill an empty space, anyone else any thoughts? Should it just be removed? Mo ainm~Talk 22:57, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
- All those flag icons were being misused, so I removed them. It's absurd that the majority of people in part of Alabama would be represented by a St George - were they born in England? They certainly don't carry English passports, because there's no such thing. And since when did the UNIA flag represent all black people?
- The piped links are only slightly less misleading. Irish ≠ Irish-American, and so on.
- Apart from the icons, some of the numbers appear to be compatible with what's on census.gov, but that source doesn't appear to break "white" down into "English", "irish-american", "scots-irish-american", "german-american" &c. Is there a source for those numbers? bobrayner (talk) 23:16, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
- Don't know, but having a quick look around other articles Maine, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, Vermont, Pike County, Kentucky and Glynn County, Georgia they all seem to be using the Flag of Ulster along with other flags. Mo ainm~Talk 23:26, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
- I suspect those may have been added by the same editor.
- The flags imply a nationality which those people don't actually hold. It's doubly anachronistic - there may well be a few % of people who call themselves hyphenated-americans because they had a couple of great-great-grandparents who came over from the Old Country, but many of those immigrants would have travelled before the respective flags were adopted. Equally accurate would be this:
- " Kenya 100%"
- bobrayner (talk) 23:43, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
- Don't know, but having a quick look around other articles Maine, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, Vermont, Pike County, Kentucky and Glynn County, Georgia they all seem to be using the Flag of Ulster along with other flags. Mo ainm~Talk 23:26, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
The flags are meant to represent countries of ancestral origin, not of current nationlity, and the information is based on community surveys and census data. Primarily, but not exclusively that found in Census 2000.Thesouthernhistorian45 (talk) 05:27, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- Too misleading. They are flags of nations or regions today. There is no source for the claim that people migrated from places that used those flags, because 1) many of the people currently living were born where they are living; 2) they or their ancestors all migrated at different times, and/or 3) the flags may not have existed, or the territory where they migrated from was often under a different flag. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:47, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, that serves no encyclopedic purpose at all, and the idea that the Ulster Banner is used as a generic pseudo-flag for "Scots-Irish" is absurd. Actually the almost entirely American belief in the concept "Scots-Irish" (a.k.a. "my great-grandfather's name started with 'Mc' and we're not sure where he was from, and there's no difference anyway") is even more absurd. Misusing one of the most politically charged flags in the world to misleadingly illustrate non-encyclopedic nonsense isn't permissible (not just by MOS:ICON, but by policy at WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:NOT#SOAPBOX). — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ Contribs. 03:33, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
- PS: That article has other MOS:ICONS problems:
- I'm at a loss for why the roads wikiprojects cannot get it through their heads that it isn't helpful to encyclopedia readers to add redundant visual noise like this all over the place. "20 Interstate 20" is just pointless as well as annoying. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ Contribs. 03:41, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
- Totally agree Gnevin (talk) 10:53, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Not to take this commentary on a tangent, but I totally disagree. One does not read an icon explicitly but rather views it. I would not read the listings above as "20 Interstate 20" but rather simply as "Interstate 20". Just because the icon contains a readable portion doesn't mean that it has to be read. If that were true, we'd have lots of problems with many corporate icons these days. Take GE Healthcare's name for example. You wouldn't read that as GE GE Healthcare, would you? Dbroer (talk) 20:44, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
- You mean the GE Healthcare logo, and yes I certainly do see it as redundant "GE GE Healthcare" (If I were 12, I might not - a lot of the younger generation have a hard time parsing cursive characters, especially ornate ones like that). But how you or I would read it is irrelevant. Festooning article prose with roadsign icons was about reason #2 or #3 that this guideline was written (I know; I wrote much of it, including ensuring that this roadsign visual barf was explicitly included in its remit; it's the main reason it was renamed "WP:Icons" from the original "WP:Flags" in pretty short order after its creation). — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 07:40, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- I respectfully disagree on both fronts. If you were to do a poll, I believe that most people would look at GE Healthcare's logo and simply say "GE Healthcare" just as most people would look at the highway listing above and just read the words. Really, you're not going to tell me that when presented a list like that, you would actually read the sign (or logo) and then the text when you know plain well what the writer meant? Honestly, I look at a list like the one above and instantly I know what each one is without having to read it. I've shown this to half a dozen people and they all said the same thing. The brain works visually and there's nothing wrong with helping it along, in my opinion.Dbroer (talk) 18:31, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- You mean the GE Healthcare logo, and yes I certainly do see it as redundant "GE GE Healthcare" (If I were 12, I might not - a lot of the younger generation have a hard time parsing cursive characters, especially ornate ones like that). But how you or I would read it is irrelevant. Festooning article prose with roadsign icons was about reason #2 or #3 that this guideline was written (I know; I wrote much of it, including ensuring that this roadsign visual barf was explicitly included in its remit; it's the main reason it was renamed "WP:Icons" from the original "WP:Flags" in pretty short order after its creation). — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 07:40, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Not to take this commentary on a tangent, but I totally disagree. One does not read an icon explicitly but rather views it. I would not read the listings above as "20 Interstate 20" but rather simply as "Interstate 20". Just because the icon contains a readable portion doesn't mean that it has to be read. If that were true, we'd have lots of problems with many corporate icons these days. Take GE Healthcare's name for example. You wouldn't read that as GE GE Healthcare, would you? Dbroer (talk) 20:44, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
- Totally agree Gnevin (talk) 10:53, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Too misleading. They are flags of nations or regions today. There is no source for the claim that people migrated from places that used those flags, because 1) many of the people currently living were born where they are living; 2) they or their ancestors all migrated at different times, and/or 3) the flags may not have existed, or the territory where they migrated from was often under a different flag. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:47, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
Flags in lists
Simple question: is it ever appropriate to use flagicons in lists? I present to you December 2011 Nigeria bombings, featuring, among other monstrosities, the papal emblem of Pope Benedict XVI, a flag for the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community of Malta, another for the Muslim Council of Britain and the emblem of USCIRF (who? what?). Jpatokal (talk) 04:38, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- That's an absurd misuse of little flag pictures. Personally, I would favour removing all flags from that list; but I expect that some other editors would be keen to retain the national flags. As a compromise, I could go along with a national-flags-only solution (considering that many entries are statements by some kind national leader or spokesperson). bobrayner (talk) 15:27, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- Its a bit unnecessary to have all those flags, but I don't think this MOS discourages this particular use, one way or the other. If they were removed, it wouldn't be a major disruption to this MOS, but if they stayed, I don't feel that it would disrupt this MOS either. In other words, do what you feel is in the best interest of the article.--JOJ Hutton 15:46, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think any of those flags are necessary, and it might constitute "over-use". But if they don't violate the MOS, then it's down to a consensus of editors on that page. In other words, it's a style preference issue, so maybe a discussion on the talk page there can sort it out. Bretonbanquet (talk) 17:24, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- Its a bit unnecessary to have all those flags, but I don't think this MOS discourages this particular use, one way or the other. If they were removed, it wouldn't be a major disruption to this MOS, but if they stayed, I don't feel that it would disrupt this MOS either. In other words, do what you feel is in the best interest of the article.--JOJ Hutton 15:46, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
So, what I'm proposing is that we amend the MOS to state that flags should not be used in lists. Are there any cases where flags in lists make sense? (Most of the MOS seems devoted to tables and infoboxes.) Jpatokal (talk) 20:08, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- That's an awful big leap and one would have a hell of a time removing flags from every list all over Wikipedia. Flags are already discouraged in infoboxes and are allowed in only rare cases. Tables and lists seem to me, to be acceptable places for certain flags in some cases. In addition, even if we do come to some understanding on whether or not flags should be in or out of lists, I found that some people simply ignore the MOS and do what they want anyway. Some editors and wikiprojects get very protective of their flags, and you might see a battle when trying to remove them, even if consensus is to not have them in lists.
- That being said, how would you word this proposal? Do you have something in mind?--JOJ Hutton 20:35, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- Even if there were a consensus to remove flags from all lists, which would be needlessly draconian, it would be unworkable. I don't see a problem with taking flags in lists on a case-by-case basis and determining a local consensus. We need to be careful of trying to engineer a MOS which attempts to enforce a very wide blanket ruling, where just a few editors have constituted a disproportionately tiny consensus. Bretonbanquet (talk) 00:27, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm not proposing a blanket removal from all lists, I suggest we amend the MOS to state that flags in lists are discouraged, with local exceptions allowed if they have good enough reasons. We can use precisely the same wording as we do for infoboxes: Generally, flag icons should not be used in lists: they are unnecessarily distracting. That said, I'm still waiting for any examples of a good use of flags in lists...? Jpatokal (talk) 22:24, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
- We can use "Generally, flag icons should not be used in lists" but throw out the distracting part. That "distracting" portion of infoboxes was sneaked through without discussion the first time and does not represent consensus. We don't need to do it once again. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:20, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with Fyunck. There doesn't seem to be any consensus for the distraction element. Bretonbanquet (talk) 00:09, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
- Are you sure? The history of this page shows quite a lot of comments which treat the potential for distraction as a real, and bad, thing. One of my main concerns about flag use in articles (particularly lists) is that labelling items with little flag pictures can often diatract from the actual content of the list. bobrayner (talk) 13:53, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
- I've asked several times to for someone to provide the discussion which produced the consensus, but nobody ever seems to be able to find it. I'm sure some people do find them distracting, but then I often find those same people have no trouble with flags in other places, thus contradicting themselves. I find the distraction argument very weak - I can see how overuse can be distracting, like this: [[2]], but I find it hard to believe that a minimal use of flags creates a problematic distraction. Lots of people don't find them distracting of course, which is where the problem lies regarding a consensus. Bretonbanquet (talk) 15:45, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't find flag icons distracting. In fact, I often scan through a list using flags rather than text, in order to find what I'm looking for. Claims that flags are distracting should be substantiated. Daicaregos (talk) 15:51, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
- I've asked several times to for someone to provide the discussion which produced the consensus, but nobody ever seems to be able to find it. I'm sure some people do find them distracting, but then I often find those same people have no trouble with flags in other places, thus contradicting themselves. I find the distraction argument very weak - I can see how overuse can be distracting, like this: [[2]], but I find it hard to believe that a minimal use of flags creates a problematic distraction. Lots of people don't find them distracting of course, which is where the problem lies regarding a consensus. Bretonbanquet (talk) 15:45, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
- Are you sure? The history of this page shows quite a lot of comments which treat the potential for distraction as a real, and bad, thing. One of my main concerns about flag use in articles (particularly lists) is that labelling items with little flag pictures can often diatract from the actual content of the list. bobrayner (talk) 13:53, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with Fyunck. There doesn't seem to be any consensus for the distraction element. Bretonbanquet (talk) 00:09, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
The current wording seems fine to me. There are reasonable arguments pro and con use of flags in lists and tables, and which ones make more sense is often dependent on the specific context. This guideline's principal genesis (I would know, being one of its major authors) was reigning in use of flag icons all over the place, to reasonable cases, especially in lists and tables in which they are seen by a notable proportion of users as being an aid to in-article navigation. This doesn't mean every single list or table. The most common case is Olympic and other international sports tables. The "I found a bad use" case above, with icons for USCIRF (whatever that is) and the Pope, is obviously an actual case of misuse, since it doesn't aid navigation in any way (if anything it just begs the question, "what on earth is this emblem and why is it here?", so it clearly is in fact a distraction in that article). That makes it simply a case of misuse, not an argument for banning all use of all flags in all lists and tables. That's a perennial extremist position that has not found consensus since day one of this page's existence. So is the idea that it's perfectly fine to festoon articles with cutesy decoration at will, be it flags or road signs or coats of arms or giant quotation marks, whatever. This is a guideline not a policy, so there will always be exceptions to what it says, in either direction; using an unusual case as an opportunity to try to advance either of the extremist views on icons is thus logically fallacious. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ Contribs. 03:11, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
- Oops, this discussion dropped off my radar, hope it's not too late to breathe some life into it...
- So, I actually agree with pretty much everything you say. My main issue is that the guideline is currently being interpreted to mean "it's OK to use flags wherever 'the subject actually represents that country, government, or nationality'", including pointless uses like decorating lists of "official" reactions by country, even though this is pretty clearly not the intent of the guidelines.
- I think we need to better highlight uses where flags are used well, and where they're used badly, and offer more concrete guidance based on that. The good case isn't hard: I think we pretty much all agree (?) that flags are great for, say, tables with results of sports matches between national teams. What I'm suggesting is that lists containing flags should, as a rule of thumb, be either a) converted into tables with flags, or b) kept as lists and have their flags stripped out. "Distraction" and "legibility" and all that aside, it's simply terrible typography to have a bullet point meaning "here's an item of text", and follow it with anything that's not an item of text (like a flag). Jpatokal (talk) 03:24, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
Abuse of {{Cquote}} (decorative, huge quotation marks) in mainspace
The semi-perennial topic of the abuse of Template:Cquote to "prettify" block quotations, against MOS:QUOTE, MOS:ICONS and the template's own documentation (since weakened by fans of decoration), has popped up again at Template talk:Cquote (and, in a specific case, at Talk:Second Amendment to the United States Constitution#Should the Second Amendment main text use Cquote?). NB: I make no pretense that this is a neutral notice/pointer; the practice blatantly violates the guidelines and at least two policies, and that should be made clear.
A namespace switch needs to be installed in {{cquote}}
so that it just uses bare <blockquote>...</blockquote>
markup when used in the main namespace (as it is thousands of times!), without any of the pretty/distracting formatting; this would simply get rid of much of the problem instantly. Unfortunately, there's been some resistance to this idea, because the template talk page there is mostly populated by fans of the template and of its use in articles to decorate things. Most of them seem to not know MOS:ICONS exists or care that it does, and most [ab]users of this template have no idea what a pull quote really is or is for. (Short version: It's not simply a quotation, it's a quotation pulled for special emphasis from the extant text of the page, so it must already be in the main prose, which necessarily means that pull quotes in anything but a very long article are redundant visual "noise". Because it is a very heavy-handed form of emphasis, intentionally telling the reader what to pay attention to, putting it in an article is almost always a blatant violation of WP:NPOV policy, especially WP:UNDUE, and also raises WP:NOT#SOAPBOX issues. Pull quotes are a journalistic/editorial style that is almost never appropriate in an encyclopedia.) The relevant point here is that the template is inserting pure decoration into articles in the form of ridiculously huge, colored “ ” curly-quote glyphs.
Some have suggested that there needs to be an RfC that focuses on whether decorative quotation marks should be used in normal quotations, or at all, or whatever. But it doesn't need an RfC, because MOS:ICONS already gives us a fully developed guideline against decorative widgets like this. Editors at Template talk:Cquote simply need to hear this from more than me. They seem to feel they have a "consensus" to keep abusing pure decoration in articles (as well as violating NPOV, but that's another issue). Such a micro-consensus is invalid, per WP:LOCALCONSENSUS policy. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ Contribs. 03:11, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
flagcons in settlement infoboxes
A discussion regarding the useage of flag icons in settlement infoboxes has been started at Template_talk:Infobox_settlement#flagcons_in_settlement_infoboxes. Please mosey on over.--S. Rich (talk) 01:36, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Per the discussion and consensus at WP:GEOGRAPHY, I have included geographic to the exclusions to MOSFLAG. This conforms to the majority usage and the consensus developed at the project. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 22:00, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
- The discussion at the Template Talk is ongoing. There was no such discussion or consensus at WP:GEOGRAPHY.--S. Rich (talk) 22:32, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Flags in info boxes - templates
If flags are supposed to not be used within info boxes, does the template {{UK}} ( United Kingdom) fit in. This is used in a number of info boxes, quite a few inappropriate. GimliDotNet (talk) 20:22, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
- It depends. In tennis it shows the country the player represents in international events, so we use it in the infobox as vital information. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:33, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
- Not all that vital to have the flag, since simply stating the name of thecountry in the infobox does the same thing. There is no confusion if the flag was left out.--JOJ Hutton 21:17, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
- Vital, no, but readers and sports authorities have commented that player's name and playing nationality are very important and something they want to stand out. It might not matter so much in team sports like hockey and football where you have an intermingling of nationalities on a single team, but in Tennis it is very important. Maybe not vital, but then most of the info in the article isn't vital either. It's important that the reader sees it quickly and it's why our Project has adopted it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:31, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
- Tennis players are rarely representing their country. They're usually playing for themselves. Why emphasise the nationality? With some team sports it's more reasonable - the Italian basketball team is, specifically, a bunch of different basketball players brought together in one team because they're all Italian; selected by an Italian basketball committee, to represent Italy against other countries' basketball teams. They might even wear some kind of national colours. But an Italian tennis player is just a tennis player, and if they acquired a different nationality it wouldn't make the slightest difference to their game. bobrayner (talk) 23:10, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
- Vital, no, but readers and sports authorities have commented that player's name and playing nationality are very important and something they want to stand out. It might not matter so much in team sports like hockey and football where you have an intermingling of nationalities on a single team, but in Tennis it is very important. Maybe not vital, but then most of the info in the article isn't vital either. It's important that the reader sees it quickly and it's why our Project has adopted it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:31, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
- Not all that vital to have the flag, since simply stating the name of thecountry in the infobox does the same thing. There is no confusion if the flag was left out.--JOJ Hutton 21:17, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
- Davis Cup, Fed Cup, Hopman Cup, Wightman Cup, Olympics.... Plus the 4 Majors list the nationality of every champion. It's important. In fact Wimbledon requires (or used to) a nationality be listed to even compete. If a country's tennis federation wouldn't sponsor you, you didn't play. Records are kept at ESPN and Reuters on the number of times a particular country has won a Major. Often so do the events themselves. It is talked about in the press all the time about the last time particular countries have won. You may call him just another "Italian tennis player" but to the press and sources it's much much more. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:51, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- Davis Cup. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:12, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
- And having the name of the nation with a wikilink would accomplish the same goal of identifying the players national team. Emphasizing with a flag is not needed.--JOJ Hutton 01:11, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- Same goes for every other flag on Wikipedia, even the ones that are allowed by the MOS. That argument is bogus. Bretonbanquet (talk) 01:20, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- And having the name of the nation with a wikilink would accomplish the same goal of identifying the players national team. Emphasizing with a flag is not needed.--JOJ Hutton 01:11, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- Davis Cup. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:12, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
- The sporting context is different. It's what reliable sources do. I.e., watch any Olympics broadcast. Templates like
{{Flag|GBR}}
- GBR - are directly derived from real-world usage. They would not be used this way off-WP if they were not considered important. I won't address "vital", as arguing for or against something presented hyperbolically is just engaging in further hyperbole. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒〈°⌊°〉 Contribs. 02:24, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- WP:MOSFLAG was not adopted by consensus; in fact no one has ever demonstrated any consensus for it, not shown evidence of the supposed rationale behind it. It's a relic from someone's ideas, that some lemmings treat as divine revelation. It would be best to remove it entirely. Recently, discussions at both WP:GEOGRAPHY and {{infobox settlement}} had consensuses to permit national flags on such articles (whether to permit or prohibit subnational flags in the infobox settlement could not achieve consensus). Flags are useful shorthand in infoboxes, which are supposed to be a short summary of essential elements at a glance from the article. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 15:58, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- I'm amused by the suggestion that a standard refined by multiple RfCs and other discussions, on which very many editors have commented over time, can now be discarded at will. It cannot. The last time there were major discussions (including flags on ship articles, flags in lists, &c), nobody raised a "scrap this MOS page" proposal. Why is that? bobrayner (talk) 16:14, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- As one of those supposed "lemmings", I found that the rationale is simply to keep the infobox clean of unnecessary clutter. Infoboxes can become overburdened with too much information. Flags say nothing that cannot be said with simple text. Flags are not always identifiable by everyone, as we cannot expect readers to be able to recognize which flag belongs to each country. One single part of an infobox is no more important to the article than any other part. Infoboxes should only have as much information than is needed, and very little more. The body of the article can and should cover events in greater detail.--JOJ Hutton 16:20, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- If that were true, there would be no exceptions. But alas, there are and your position is not validated by others'. Alas, we don't require users to be able to recognize which flag belongs to each country- so we require the country name as well, but we don't treat readers as if they are the dumbest people around by withholding from them information from which to make quick identifications. If these are sooooooo distracting, why the OK for their (apparenlty, noncontroversial) use in military and sporting events, ship articles, etc.? These are not only tolerated but encouraged, MOSFLAG notwithstanding, as articles containing flags in infoboxes have - without even mentioning the issue - been promoted to GA & FA. It may not be time to have a RFC to decide whether there is a consensus to retain any form of MOSFLAG. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:45, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- As one of those supposed "lemmings", I found that the rationale is simply to keep the infobox clean of unnecessary clutter. Infoboxes can become overburdened with too much information. Flags say nothing that cannot be said with simple text. Flags are not always identifiable by everyone, as we cannot expect readers to be able to recognize which flag belongs to each country. One single part of an infobox is no more important to the article than any other part. Infoboxes should only have as much information than is needed, and very little more. The body of the article can and should cover events in greater detail.--JOJ Hutton 16:20, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- I'm amused by the suggestion that a standard refined by multiple RfCs and other discussions, on which very many editors have commented over time, can now be discarded at will. It cannot. The last time there were major discussions (including flags on ship articles, flags in lists, &c), nobody raised a "scrap this MOS page" proposal. Why is that? bobrayner (talk) 16:14, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- The military exceptions were recent additions allowed to slip through with unclear consensus. It should not have happened. I cannot see the consensus for the recent geography exception. --Merbabu (talk) 20:18, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- PS - there is a clear preference amongst military and sports editors to use flags and there is no significant action to remove these to be inline with the MOS. it should be noted that the military context has a specific exception clause here whereas the sporting context doesn't. The insertin of such clauses only is a slippery slope that only serves to cause arguments over what is allowed and isn't. It continues to work fine without a sport mention. It should also be noted that the geography context does not have the level of unanimous support for flags that is enjoyed by the military and sports projects. Prescriptive specific includion and exception clauses don't help. A blind eye can be a useful thing and continues to serve us well in the sporting articles. --Merbabu (talk) 20:30, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- Consensus need not require unanimity. We're not the EU or the UN Security Council; WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY. There is no consensus to prohibit the flags - in the lack of consensus, rules of prohibition are not enforceable: whether they are blocks, deletions, or reversions. Since no one has been able to show specific discussion constituting consensus on MOSFLAG, we should probably see what level of consensus there is, and what exceptions achieve consensus, rather than using "because it's policy" arguments which are weak per WP:CONSENSUS. Per WP:CONSENSUS, the first way consensus is shown is by edits made and not changed; since about 200,000 geographic articles contain flag icons, including FAs, GAs; their inclusion does have some merit. There are lots without flag icons, but alas, no one is saying lack of a flag icon is prohibited, so that's a straw man argument. So consensus, both at WP:GEOGRAPHY and {{infobox settlement}} seem to indication that the guideline is a relic and no longer has consensus (if ever it had done). Carlossuarez46 (talk) 22:40, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
(outdent) Carlossuarez46 amazingly asserts "WP:MOSFLAG was not adopted by consensus; in fact no one has ever demonstrated any consensus for it, not shown evidence of the supposed rationale behind it." That's one of the most disconnected-from-reality things I've seen expressed here in a long time. If he's so sure of this, he knows where WP:MFD is, and should go list Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Icons for deletion there and see how that works out. The other rational alternative would be to quit disrupting the talk pages of guidelines just because they advise against "fun" but non-encyclopedic things he'd like to do and that he wished they didn't advise against. See also WP:NOT#SOAPBOX and WP:POINT. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 07:47, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- In fact we should consider just getting rid of all of the so-called exceptions and "discourage" flags in all info boxes. That way we can end all this edit warring over what is and is not appropriate. --JOJ Hutton 18:35, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- If something is discouraged, then that implies that it is technically allowed, and that will in no way prevent edit wars or disagreements. Personally I see no problem with including flags in infoboxes and don't buy the rationale about distraction and undue weight. I don't say that such flags are vital, but they are not without value. Omnedon (talk) 04:27, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Consensus?
(ec) This change, making “geographical” articles an exception to the MOS was added without apparent consensus. The apparent reasoning, as I understand it, is that an infobox guide trumps the MOS.
Yesterday’s addition should thus be removed until it can be shown that there is a consensus for the change to the MOS. (I also refer to my comments earlier today directly above.) --Merbabu (talk) 22:45, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- I've pointed out where this was discussed ad nauseum. There is no consensus to prohibit national flags in geographical articles; it shouldn't be added back until you can demonstrate otherwise. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 00:20, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- Once again, you did not discuss changing this page. And, as for your other pages, looking at comments on talk pages it is far from clear that there is consensus there either (for example). From where I sit you are saying (a) I don't need consensus to change this page, and (b) trust me, it's consensus at the other pages. A little contradictory. --Merbabu (talk) 00:28, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- And this is a site-wide major guideline. Per WP:LOCALCONSENSUS policy, some micro-consensus at a geo wikiproject cannot trump it. If members of that project feel strongly about the matter, they need to quit trying to balkanize themselves into a pretend sovereign entity, a WP:IAR anarchy, and seek to gain broader consensus here for what they don't agree with in MOS:ICONS. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 07:50, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- I'm afraid I agree with SMcCandlish and Merbabu here. You can't have a discussion in project talk then come over here and change the guideline in MoS. If anything it should be the other way around. I've undone the change, pending a proper consensus being arrived at here. --John (talk) 18:03, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Wait a minute... We had recently been arguing that in the section "Avoid flag icons in infoboxes" that several lines were inserted in the last year with no consensus or talk whatsoever.
- I believe it was these lines:
- "they are unnecessarily distracting and give undue prominence to one field among many"
- "Flag icons should only be inserted in infoboxes in those cases where they convey information in addition to the text."
- "Flag icons are visually distracting"
- I'm afraid I agree with SMcCandlish and Merbabu here. You can't have a discussion in project talk then come over here and change the guideline in MoS. If anything it should be the other way around. I've undone the change, pending a proper consensus being arrived at here. --John (talk) 18:03, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- And this is a site-wide major guideline. Per WP:LOCALCONSENSUS policy, some micro-consensus at a geo wikiproject cannot trump it. If members of that project feel strongly about the matter, they need to quit trying to balkanize themselves into a pretend sovereign entity, a WP:IAR anarchy, and seek to gain broader consensus here for what they don't agree with in MOS:ICONS. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 07:50, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Once again, you did not discuss changing this page. And, as for your other pages, looking at comments on talk pages it is far from clear that there is consensus there either (for example). From where I sit you are saying (a) I don't need consensus to change this page, and (b) trust me, it's consensus at the other pages. A little contradictory. --Merbabu (talk) 00:28, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- Someone just plopped them in and several of us complained and we were told pretty much "Tough!" But this time it happens and it gets reverted? I mean I didn't make the addition, but talk about a double standard and unfairness. We might need an admin to look at what's happening here. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:21, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Discussing the proposed exception for geographical articles
- I actually don't have any strong feelings either way. I don't find the icons necessary in geographical articles, nor do I find them distracting. On that basis, I would argue for an exception for geographical articles based on the general Wikipedia policy of the less restriction on editor creativity the better. I would add the caveat that they should remain modest. --Bejnar (talk) 20:28, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- I agree. I think that a MOS should dictate no more than a reasonable use of flagicons, in the infobox and elsewhere. What is then construed as "resonable use" can be decided by WikiProject consensus, or consensus at article level. Dictatorial guidelines are unhelpful and cause endless arguments on pages such as this one. If a local consensus finds that flagicons are acceptable in geographical article infoboxes, then that consensus should stand. Bretonbanquet (talk) 00:32, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- What you are suggesting is that WP:LOCALCONSENSUS is not an applicable guideline and can be ignored at will. That is, the MOS is nothing more than a very loose guideline which different Projects can ignore. Consider this -- settlement infobox templates are pertinent to/of interest to both WP:GEOGRAPHY and WP:CITIES. Suppose one Project comes to one consensus and the other Project comes up with a different, conflicting consensus? We end up with even more edit warring because different people would point to one or another Project discussion page to support their view. (Some Projects have more members than others -- would the larger Project "guideline" overrule the smaller one? Please consult WP:NOTANARCHY.) Also, you are also suggesting that editors interested in a particular article can ignore the guidelines "at article level". Not a good idea. The LOCALCONSENSUS guideline is a good one -- it says look at the WP:GUIDELINES. What we really need is consensus for the guidelines, even if consensus is reached after much mulberry-bushing.--S. Rich (talk) 07:17, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- No, you miss the whole point. WP:LOCALCONSENSUS is exactly why this discussion is now here and not at Wikipedia:WikiProject Geography. Not ignoring guidelines is why we are trying to reach some kind of consensus for a stated exception to the general rule. After some brain-storming, maybe we can actually write such a proposal, or alternatively agree that continuing to craft such an exception would be futile as no consensus on any points can be reached. Personally, I have more faith in Wikipedia process than that. --Bejnar (talk) 19:47, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- What you are suggesting is that WP:LOCALCONSENSUS is not an applicable guideline and can be ignored at will. That is, the MOS is nothing more than a very loose guideline which different Projects can ignore. Consider this -- settlement infobox templates are pertinent to/of interest to both WP:GEOGRAPHY and WP:CITIES. Suppose one Project comes to one consensus and the other Project comes up with a different, conflicting consensus? We end up with even more edit warring because different people would point to one or another Project discussion page to support their view. (Some Projects have more members than others -- would the larger Project "guideline" overrule the smaller one? Please consult WP:NOTANARCHY.) Also, you are also suggesting that editors interested in a particular article can ignore the guidelines "at article level". Not a good idea. The LOCALCONSENSUS guideline is a good one -- it says look at the WP:GUIDELINES. What we really need is consensus for the guidelines, even if consensus is reached after much mulberry-bushing.--S. Rich (talk) 07:17, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- We already have anarchy due to a poorly worded MOS which was instigated with no consensus, and because some editors want to force this MOS into places where there have been no problems. The chances of a consensus being reached to rewrite it are so small, I don't think any of us will live long enough to see the end of it. Is there even a consensus that the MOS needs to be rewritten? Bretonbanquet (talk) 17:55, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Does anyone have an example of what we're talking about? How exactly do people want to use flag icons in geography articles? Kaldari (talk) 07:26, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Detroit. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:51, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
There seems to be no consensus here to prohibit flag usage in geographic article infoboxes. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:51, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
- There's no consensus to change the MOS. Last year's discussions about flag-usage (including the lengthy RfCs) have shown that the community is far from laissez-faire about them (and in particular, sub-national flags are widely seen to be problematic). If you'd like to get a clear ruling, perhaps an RfC would be a good idea? If somebody could come up with a concrete proposal or two, it could help clear the air - there seems to be a little confusion above.
- Personally, I'm more sympathetic to the use of relevant flags for human geography articles; less so for physical geography articles. (In other words: Flags for province articles, not for river articles). Other people may have other nuances.
- bobrayner (talk) 10:29, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- I think human geography is what has been the bone of contention - indeed, populated places and administrative subdivisions have been the center of the edit wars. For mountain ranges, valleys, rivers, lakes, and such - flags have no real meaning. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:01, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- Carlossuarez makes a good point above with Detroit -- a Featured Article. Indeed, in looking at all of the FAs and GAs about communities, I found that 15% of each had flagicons in the infoboxes. This being the case, that is, because reviewers who applied the strictest standards found the flagicons acceptable, the guidelines ought to reflect this standard and actual practice and explicitly allow them to a limited extent. (National & subnational entities only.) -- S. Rich (talk) 19:12, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that for physical geography flags have no meaning, but that won't stop some editor from placing and defending an Iranian or Kurdish irredenta flag on the Lake Urmia article, unless it is prohibited. It is like the problem with the Andes: The articles are organized by Colombian, Ecuadorian, Bolivian ... instead of by mountain range within the Andes. --Bejnar (talk) 19:47, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- We could word the guideline to make that noncompliant; nothing will stop any editor from doing anything - but will give the community's imprimatur to sanction a revert. How about, "Human geographic articles - for example settlements and administrative subdivisions - may have flags in infoboxes; however, physical geographic articles - for example, mountains, valleys, rivers, lakes, and swamps - should not. Where a single article covers both human and physical geographic subjects (e.g. Manhattan), the consensus of editors at that article will determine whether flag use in the infobox is preferred or not." Carlossuarez46 (talk) 21:18, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- I like that. But there is S. Rich's caveat about limiting it to national and subnational flags. Such articles may also want the city's flag not as an icon but as a thumb in the city's article's infobox. So maybe we should say "flag icons for national and subnational entities" rather than "flags". --Bejnar (talk) 18:56, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
- That's reasonable. Any other tweaks for now? Do you want to make the change? Carlossuarez46 (talk) 20:15, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
- Using a hypothetical example, I wouldn't mind Randomville's flag being used in the Randomville article. However, it would probably be less appropriate in other articles such as Randomville university or Parks in Randomville or Randomsuburb. bobrayner (talk) 21:27, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
- That is handled through the "|image_flag = " parameter in {{infobox settlement}}; see Detroit. Where as we would not expect to see Detoit's flag on articles on its neighborhoods, suburbs, streets, squares, etc. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 02:50, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- Well, yes and no; I'm skeptical that any policy we write here would tie itself so specifically to a single infobox parameter. image_flag may be the most common mechanism for putting a flag into a human-geography article, and I think it's a good example of what we could permit, but it's certainly not the only way that flags get into human-geography articles... bobrayner (talk) 09:21, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- How its done is less important, but for flags for lower level entities (in the US, counties and cities, say), we would expect to see those flags only on the specific article and not on everything further down below (hierarchically speaking). Which I think is agreement with your point. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:05, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- Well, yes and no; I'm skeptical that any policy we write here would tie itself so specifically to a single infobox parameter. image_flag may be the most common mechanism for putting a flag into a human-geography article, and I think it's a good example of what we could permit, but it's certainly not the only way that flags get into human-geography articles... bobrayner (talk) 09:21, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- That is handled through the "|image_flag = " parameter in {{infobox settlement}}; see Detroit. Where as we would not expect to see Detoit's flag on articles on its neighborhoods, suburbs, streets, squares, etc. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 02:50, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- Using a hypothetical example, I wouldn't mind Randomville's flag being used in the Randomville article. However, it would probably be less appropriate in other articles such as Randomville university or Parks in Randomville or Randomsuburb. bobrayner (talk) 21:27, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
- That's reasonable. Any other tweaks for now? Do you want to make the change? Carlossuarez46 (talk) 20:15, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
- Hearing nothing more, I'll make the change presently. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Does Template:Coord violate MOSICON when used in prose?
On Ontario Highway 401, an article at WP:FAC, an editor added coordinates to the article. They were removed in the next edit with an edit description of "unnecessary detail and icons interrupting text. Coords are already in the linked article." I don't wish to get into them being about unnecessary details, only that the icons interrupt text.
On the FAC page, I asked the following:
- This may be a moot point since it was subsequently removed, but this edit added coordinates to the prose of the article. That in itself I'm not arguing against. According to WP:MOSICON, we cannot put icons in body of an article, but in tables, icons are fine. Thus, we are forbidden from saying "...is a 400-series highway in the Canadian province of Ontario..." Why would "East of Highway 400 is The Basketweave (43°43′03″N 79°30′11″W / 43.717613°N 79.502950°W), ..." be any different? Both have icons that interrupt the text.
The editor who originally added the coords suggested I take the matter up here, so here I am. When used in prose, I would like to know how the globe icon, which when clicked opens a WikiMiniAtlas, is different than a flag icon which does nothing. Both are icons which can interrupt text. Yes, the globe can be argued to have encyclopedic value (WP:ICONDECORATION), but WP:NOICONS says no icons in prose. Which is the stronger rule? –Fredddie™ 00:18, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- As the editor referred to by Fredddie, I agree with the above hatnote. Also, let me make clear that I have no strong view for or against the suggestion that {{Coord}} breaches MOS:ICON, but I'd be quite happy with a switch to disable the globe icon when the template is used in prose. Also, note that {{Coord}}'s documentation advises how logged-in users may disable its display, in their own CSS settings; and that {{Coord}}'s globe icon is functional not merely decorative. Remember, too, that we already have many thousands of instances of {{Coord}} in article prose. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 00:34, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- As far as your last point, a bot could easily take care of that. --Rschen7754 00:42, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- I mentioned it as a reflection of current consensus, not a workload concern. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 00:54, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- As far as your last point, a bot could easily take care of that. --Rschen7754 00:42, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- Discussion about this topic may soon become moot. Wikproject Geographical coordinates has come up with a mechanism which could feasibly and reasonably obsolete the need to display coordinates, but it is in the early stages of development and infancy of deployment. For example, see Mojave Desert:
- note only standard coordinates (infobox and title line)
- Click on the globe icon on the title line and observe that WikiMiniAtlas plots data associated with this article.
- At the bottom of page, click on one of the KML file external links. (The data being plotted is, for now, held in the /KML subpage of the article's talk page.)
- The counter example is West Side CSO Tunnel, which has inline prose giving coordinates of the five verifiable points on the tunnel (vertical shaftheads). WikiMiniAtlas, remarkably, already scrapes this off the page; hovering the mouse over one of the plotted points highlights the article text and has a popup hint giving the point name. For the article to be comprehensive, it should have this data. I suppose one solution to comply with the spirit of MOSICON would be to move the coordinates to a table so they would avoid being within inlined text. But even better is to move the coordinates off the page and into an interactive map, which is exactly what the GEO group effort aims to do. —EncMstr (talk) 01:11, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- There is no project to "obsolete the need to display coordinates". Coordinates for key points of interest are important information, which should be displayed to our readers; and note that WikiMiniAtlas isnt avaiable in print, nor on our increasingly-important mobile site. Your observation about tables is well made, though; it would certainly improve the CSO article. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 01:35, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- In principle, I think the ability to display coordinates inline, in prose, can be quite helpful - although I'm concerned that if given carte blanche, some people will then set about making a million edits adding coordinates for everything mentioned in an article which might possibly have a location (ie. every building in Wyandanch) even though one link at the top right of a page (or in an infobox) is sufficient for most articles. If we really need inline coordinates for an object then I'm not going to lose much sleep over the coord icon - it's the same for all coordinates, it's not very obtrusive/distracting, and it's not actually trying to convey encyclopædic information itself. bobrayner (talk) 01:44, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- Your link to Wyandanch is followed by a padlock icon. Is that permitted ? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:06, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- In principle, I think the ability to display coordinates inline, in prose, can be quite helpful - although I'm concerned that if given carte blanche, some people will then set about making a million edits adding coordinates for everything mentioned in an article which might possibly have a location (ie. every building in Wyandanch) even though one link at the top right of a page (or in an infobox) is sufficient for most articles. If we really need inline coordinates for an object then I'm not going to lose much sleep over the coord icon - it's the same for all coordinates, it's not very obtrusive/distracting, and it's not actually trying to convey encyclopædic information itself. bobrayner (talk) 01:44, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- There is no project to "obsolete the need to display coordinates". Coordinates for key points of interest are important information, which should be displayed to our readers; and note that WikiMiniAtlas isnt avaiable in print, nor on our increasingly-important mobile site. Your observation about tables is well made, though; it would certainly improve the CSO article. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 01:35, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- There is no icon in prose. At least with my settings. What are you guys seeing? I changed that a year ago during a similar discussion. When used in prose text the coordinates do not get an icon attached, but a little pop-up on mouseing over that then displays a link to the WMA. I am thoroughly confused. --Dschwen 14:01, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- Oh gosh! I never made it the default setting! Ok, just try putting this
var wma_settings = { flowTextTooltips : true }
- in your vector.js file and let me know what you think. I could make this the default setting. But I'm not sure whether it would be beneficial to the reader as the bottom line. --Dschwen 14:06, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- That worked like a charm for me. How exactly would the template know it's in prose as opposed to a table? –Fredddie™ 23:36, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- The template doesn't know anything. This is not just a simple image, that is inserted, it is an interactive widget. You need javascript for this to work. The script that adds the image scans the DOM tree and looks for certain parent elements. --Dschwen 23:47, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- That's not accurate. It "knows" by being told "inline", "header" or both; there's a specific parameter for it! Anyway, not every possible feature has to be implemented in every possible context. I'm not sure that we care that it's a widget and not just decoration; it either needs a non-graphical equivalent for use in running prose, or it needs to not happen in running prose at all. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 19:09, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
- My point is that the template does not generate the icon. A piece of Javascript attached it to all coordinate links on the page. Have you tried the vector.js solution above? Would that be satisfactory to you? --Dschwen 20:31, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
- That's not accurate. It "knows" by being told "inline", "header" or both; there's a specific parameter for it! Anyway, not every possible feature has to be implemented in every possible context. I'm not sure that we care that it's a widget and not just decoration; it either needs a non-graphical equivalent for use in running prose, or it needs to not happen in running prose at all. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 19:09, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
- The template doesn't know anything. This is not just a simple image, that is inserted, it is an interactive widget. You need javascript for this to work. The script that adds the image scans the DOM tree and looks for certain parent elements. --Dschwen 23:47, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- That worked like a charm for me. How exactly would the template know it's in prose as opposed to a table? –Fredddie™ 23:36, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- in your vector.js file and let me know what you think. I could make this the default setting. But I'm not sure whether it would be beneficial to the reader as the bottom line. --Dschwen 14:06, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
(outdent) The blindingly obvious solution to the issue raised by this thread is to use a coord template that doesn't spit out an icon. Next. Someone should mark this topic {{Resolved}}. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 07:53, 28 February 2012 (UTC) Sounds like this may be a little more difficult to work around than I thought at first, but hardly impossible. NB: The fact that it doesn't even work without Javascript could be a further strong rationale for not having it inline in the prose. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 19:09, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
- Update: I raised the issue at Template talk:Coord#Make icon display optional and met with what I would characterize as hostile, dismissive resistance from Dschwen, characterizing any opposition to inlining this (functional or not) icon in mid-sentence as something only "half a handful" of editors care about, "very vocal people that mention it once every two years" and who need to "quit the 'bickering'". I do not believe that is an accurate summary of the situation at all, or MOS:ICONS would never have been written and no one would participate in discussions on this talk page. And people would not be raising concern with the globe icon in article prose, as they do on article and project talk pages (see, e.g., WT:MILHIST right now). — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 19:09, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, SMcCandlish. Let's take a step back from the personal level here. This direction is not going to be productive at all. Please check out the vector.js setting above and let's discuss from there. The MILHIST talk was not brought to my attention. I can only comment on the compaints that I get. I realize that the underbelly of the template and the javascript are hard to understand for a non-programmer (and probably even for a programmer). That may result in compainers not knowing whom to address. --Dschwen 20:31, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
- Let's do it the other way around. I switched off the icon by default. Clear your caches and test. --Dschwen 20:45, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
- I started the Milhist discussion unaware that there was any ongoing discussion (sorry), and yes, I'd prefer that we at least have the option of getting rid of the icon in running text ... if you'd like to turn it off by default, great. But in my experience, people tend not to care a lot unless they're a frequent visitor at FAC and sometimes at A-class. - Dank (push to talk) 21:47, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
- Let's do it the other way around. I switched off the icon by default. Clear your caches and test. --Dschwen 20:45, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
All of the Academy Award nominees in this list have their countries identified by their respective flags. While I don't dispute the respective country identifications (i.e. as far as I know the people with the Swedish flag really are Swedish, the people with the Norwegian flag really are Norwegian, etc.), I don't believe this is particularly useful. There are five countries involved, and all five of them use a Nordic Cross flag design. It's not like trying to distinguish among five very different flags such as, say, . It's exactly like trying to distinguish among . --Metropolitan90 (talk) 05:22, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- To people from that part of the world, all those flags are very distinct. The real question here is whether it's conventional, e.g. in the TV broadcast, for the SAA's to use flags to identify people? If it is, that's an argument for the usage being okay, in tables here, because it's expected and is reliably sourceable as real-world-practice, just like the overwhelming use of " USA" in Olympics broadcasts. If it's not the case that it's an expected usage, one has to ask whether it really adds/helps (without resorting to personal opinions about whether the flags are "different enough", which is biased and subjective). — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 07:59, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- These aren't the "Scandinavian Academy Awards". They're the American-based Academy Awards (Oscars) for which all the nominees from the Scandinavian countries have been placed in a list article. And there's a big difference between alone, and DEN, in terms of accessibility to U.S.-based readers, which many people here at the English Wikipedia are. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 05:18, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
These flags should be removed as they are being used to identify the birth place of the actors nominated against MOSFLAG. Mo ainm~Talk 08:54, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Big graphic banner with two icons used all over U. of Pittsburgh articles
There's an odd, but ultimately clear-cut, case at Template talk:University of Pittsburgh#image banner for nav header. There's been some editwarring back and forth to de-graphicized this template, but click on the image banner and go see how many real articles it's transcluded in. The image lives on Commons, so I guess it can't even be MfD'd. The template can't be TfD'd, since it could, if people would stop WP:OWNing it, easily be fixed to stop being a gross violation of MOS:ICON (specifically WP:ICONDECORATION). NB: The image and template creator is claiming MOS:ICON doesn't apply because this is an image banner. This is a patent attempt at WP:GAMING the system, and fails anyway since, MOS:ICONS doesn't have a specific image size limit to its applicability, it generally and explicitly applies to pure-decoration image use generally, and the image is just two icons and styled text screen-capped to be an image instead of real markup, so even the icon specific stuff is actually directly applicable. A cute attempt to evade MOS, "but, not." — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 07:32, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- While you have a point (I've removed it once, along with other cosmetic frippery, and been reverted), the maxim "deletion is not cleanup" applies. Deleting this otherwise useful template would be overkill. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:09, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, that's why I said "The template can't be TfD'd, since it could, if people would stop WP:OWNing it, easily be fixed to stop being a gross violation of MOS:ICON." — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 10:53, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry; I completely misread your point. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:24, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, that's why I said "The template can't be TfD'd, since it could, if people would stop WP:OWNing it, easily be fixed to stop being a gross violation of MOS:ICON." — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 10:53, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- This is not a patent attempt at gaming the system since nowhere in the guideline is there applicability to this image, at least by strict interpretation and certainly not by mine. This was a legitimate attempt at a unifying identification with significant visual cues and improving navigation for a large number of related but often disparate articles. Therefore, your disregard of WP:ASSUME and apparent desire for WP:CREEP is disheartening, as is the fact that you lament not being able to circumvent WP:DISCUSS by being unable to TfD'ing this legitimately released image which has served the purposes of this template for four years on over 100 articles under general WP:Consensus. CrazyPaco (talk) 09:16, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- I doubt even one person other than you buys that. You're playing a WP:LAWYER game. There is nothing in MOS:ICONS that limits its applicability to images based on number of pixels. I didn't lament anything; I noted that the template isn't a TfD candidate because it would be useful when fixed. I'm not assuming anything; I'm going by your own defiant statements, and your attempts work you way around site-wide rules against decorative hooey by exploiting what you think are loopholes. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 10:53, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- Seems a clear violation of WP:ICONDECORATION. Kaldari (talk) 20:35, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- I doubt even one person other than you buys that. You're playing a WP:LAWYER game. There is nothing in MOS:ICONS that limits its applicability to images based on number of pixels. I didn't lament anything; I noted that the template isn't a TfD candidate because it would be useful when fixed. I'm not assuming anything; I'm going by your own defiant statements, and your attempts work you way around site-wide rules against decorative hooey by exploiting what you think are loopholes. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 10:53, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Reconstruct "Flag Icons in Infoboxes" Guideline
I am having thoughts that the Infobox film Template under the "Avoid Flag icon in Infoboxes should be reaccessed due to uncomfortable view and inadequate order. The distribution of product by country is harder to read since some words has been split and collapsed, as shown in Fairy Tail. Please think about the faults stated above and reply carefully.--Bumblezellio (talk) 12:21, 7 March 2012 (UTC)