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:The RfD closed with no consensus. It is hard to delete things on Wikipedia, even things that would cause confusion and aren't actually used/useful: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Wikipedia:RSMED what links here]. However, having the unused/unloved redirect is one thing. Advertising it on this guideline page is another. This guideline is not known as [[Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)]], or by the old name [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources (medicine-related articles)]] (why on earth was it changed, anyway?), it is known universally as MEDRS. I can't see what benefit there is to having talk pages confused by some folk referring to RSMED and some to MEDRS. So I propose we don't advertise the RSMED shortcut, and the link removed from the top of the guideline. If you agree, could someone do the deed. My earlier edit was reverted by the person who added the shortcut. [[User:Colin|Colin]]°[[User talk:Colin|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 18:29, 29 September 2010 (UTC) |
:The RfD closed with no consensus. It is hard to delete things on Wikipedia, even things that would cause confusion and aren't actually used/useful: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Wikipedia:RSMED what links here]. However, having the unused/unloved redirect is one thing. Advertising it on this guideline page is another. This guideline is not known as [[Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)]], or by the old name [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources (medicine-related articles)]] (why on earth was it changed, anyway?), it is known universally as MEDRS. I can't see what benefit there is to having talk pages confused by some folk referring to RSMED and some to MEDRS. So I propose we don't advertise the RSMED shortcut, and the link removed from the top of the guideline. If you agree, could someone do the deed. My earlier edit was reverted by the person who added the shortcut. [[User:Colin|Colin]]°[[User talk:Colin|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 18:29, 29 September 2010 (UTC) |
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== testimonial evidence == |
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I disagree with your editor on the aspartame page. The root cause is wether to accept the position adopted by the government or to accept the testimonials of many people that have cured very serious illnesses by ceasing long term use of aspartame. While I have no problem with presenting the established viewpoint I would like to point out that personnel testimonials are acceptable in the courts and should be also included. I know this is against the no original research policy but the fact is that it is impossible for medical studies to predict the outcome of a 20 year exposure while personal experiences do just that. Perhaps the no original research policy should be modified when large numbers of people independently come to the same conclusion. [[User:Arydberg|Arydberg]] ([[User talk:Arydberg|talk]]) 13:06, 6 October 2010 (UTC) |
Revision as of 13:06, 6 October 2010
MoS naming style
There is currently an ongoing discussion about the future of this and others MoS naming style. Please consider the issues raised in the discussion and vote if you wish GnevinAWB (talk) 21:00, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Use or overuse of UpToDate
A new editor added considerable material to Grave's disease. Leaving entirely aside any POV issue I have re neuropsychiatric symptoms, the rest of the added material is I think basically correct, although written in a style of a text book. My specific concern is that UpToDate has been used in large measure (eg Ref3 used 24 times and further multiple references to UpToDate too) for the added material. Yet UpToDate is a subscription only site, so I am unable to check the details, and "Diagnosis of hyperthyroidism, Douglas S Ross, UpToDate.com, Last literature review version 17.1: januari 2009 | This topic last updated: augustus 25, 2008" does not seem likely as a reference easily located.
Is UpToDate therefore a permitted source for what should be standard information. Is any deficiency as a source (no abtract per PubMed for published articles to at least vaguely WP:V a topic), preclude it from being a major repeated source ? David Ruben Talk 22:40, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- Generally this talk page is not intended to operate as a noticeboard - WP:MED might be a better spot.I think UpToDate should be discouraged as a source because it's tertiary and harder to access than medical journals, which you can at least access through an interlibrary loan if nothing else. It makes it harder to verify the content which means that subtle or major issues slip by easier. You should explain that to the editor and see if the editor understands. If not, I would request that the editor verify the sources used in UpToDate and provide them on the talk page, and then begin replacing UpToDate citations with secondary sources. If the UpToDate article does not provide its sources, it's a good reason to look for a source which does use sources. II | (t - c) 22:49, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- The policy is at WP:PAYWALL, which I have added to ==See also==.
- We might consider developing a section on this point. It could address online access as well as cost. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:50, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Transcendental Meditation studies and the press
There is a dispute at Talk:Transcendental Meditation#Use of newspapers as sources in research section over the inclusion of quotations from scientists reported in the popular press in response to studies on the use of Transcendental Meditation by schoolchildren. Some editors believe that doing so violates the "Popular press" section of this guideline. My view is that the press prohibition is aimed at descriptions of study outcomes rather than quotations from scientists, and that NPOV requires we report all significant views. Lastly, if it matters, the TM movement publicizes its studies in the popular press and uses them to seek policy changes to allow the teaching of TM in schools. Any input? Will Beback talk 20:40, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
- To clarify the discussion and add to Will's comments: Two quotes under discussion are:
- "Edzard Ernst, professor of complementary medicine at the Peninsula Medical School in Exeter, has said "there is no good evidence that TM has positive effects on children. The data that exist are all deeply flawed."
- "Educational psychologist Kairen Cullen, associate fellow of the British Psychological Society, speaking of TM in a pediatric setting has said it "...is a very difficult sample group to access and it would be very hard to provide empirical evidence - any claims would therefore be pretty speculative".
- And the discussion does not center around completely excluding the comments/quotes but also suggests including them in another section specifically for reactions/ comments in the press concerning the TM research. Since there are many articles that reference the TM research NPOV might be best served by a section that shows a cross section of those comments.(olive (talk) 21:04, 16 May 2010 (UTC))
- This talk page is only for dicussing the guideline, not for content dispute resolution. I would suggest trying one of these noticeboards, Wikipedia:Content noticeboard, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard, Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 22:43, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- Apologies - I thought this page functioned as a noticeboard for WP:MEDRS-related issues. I'll post a fresh request at WP:RSN. Will Beback talk 22:59, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
Letters to the editor
Are letters to the editor, published in peer-reviewed journals, reliable sources for anything but the opinion of the author? Can they be used without attribution? Can they be sources for fringe claims? If referenced (and lengthy), or published in certain journals (presumably with standards for what LttE will be published) could they be considered on par with an article in the same journal? Where do they fall in WP:PSTS?
And the question that needs to be asked - is this already dealt with somewhere else? WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 17:47, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
- Pretty much all source questions (such as PSTS) depend on what you are drawing from the source. I would think they are similar to letters to newspapers, with the difference that the letter writer is more likely to be a subject expert. Colin°Talk 17:58, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I think that they are generally a low evidence level primary source. Higher quality sources, if available, should be used instead. However, I don't think there should be a blanket ban on their use; sometimes letters to the editor raise good points and can be useful if used cautiously. Yes they can be sources of fringe theory, WP:UNDUE, WP:RS and current guidance in WP:MEDRS, WP:CONSENSUS and good editorial judgement should be used to decide if a letter to the editor is being used inappropriately.
- Perhaps this guideline needs to discuss and emphasise that editors should strive to use the best level of evidence for articles? Currently it just says secondary is better than primary, but some primary sources are good quality and some are not good quality. Even some reviews are poor quality.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 18:02, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
- This is a perennial comment wrt medical sources. Unfortunately, it takes expertise to judge whether a primary research paper has established its discoveries sufficiently to warrant stating them as facts in an encyclopaedia. The nature of Wikipedia, unlike Britannica say, is that we can't guarantee our editors are experts (even if they say they are) or unbiased (even if they think they are). There's absolutely zero evidence that Wikipedians are better at reviewing the primary literature than review authors. Some may think they are. There's plenty evidence that many Wikipedians are awful at reviewing the primary literature (most don't even have access to the full text). Policy WP:WEIGHT demands we consult the secondary literature in order to judge whether a study's findings are worth mentioning. Policy WP:PSTS greatly limits any use of primary sources. So while we may read what we consider to be a bad review from time to time, we have to live with the constraints WP imposes. Colin°Talk 21:30, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
- Yes I agree with what you are saying Colin. I see that you are on a wikipedia break (a wee break, you must be Scottish or Northern Irish :-)), I hope that you enjoy your break.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 17:03, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
- This is a perennial comment wrt medical sources. Unfortunately, it takes expertise to judge whether a primary research paper has established its discoveries sufficiently to warrant stating them as facts in an encyclopaedia. The nature of Wikipedia, unlike Britannica say, is that we can't guarantee our editors are experts (even if they say they are) or unbiased (even if they think they are). There's absolutely zero evidence that Wikipedians are better at reviewing the primary literature than review authors. Some may think they are. There's plenty evidence that many Wikipedians are awful at reviewing the primary literature (most don't even have access to the full text). Policy WP:WEIGHT demands we consult the secondary literature in order to judge whether a study's findings are worth mentioning. Policy WP:PSTS greatly limits any use of primary sources. So while we may read what we consider to be a bad review from time to time, we have to live with the constraints WP imposes. Colin°Talk 21:30, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
What is this guideline about?
Is this guideline about all medical information or medical information about medicine? A Quest For Knowledge (talk)
- This guideline is about all medical information.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:42, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
- While I think that's a good idea, that interpretation requires that the title should change to something more applicable. In agreement with this edit, perhaps WP:Identifying reliable sources (medical information) would suit? LeadSongDog come howl! 00:12, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- This guideline is about all medical information.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:42, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
- It also applies to things that most people wouldn't consider to be "medical information", e.g., non-human/pre-clinical research. Just about any sentence that begins "A study in mice showed that..." probably isn't "medical information", but it is covered by this guideline. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:20, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Best venue for disputes on application of MEDRS?
I started at Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Eye_movement_desensitization_and_reprocessing_.28EMDR.29, but agree that's not the best place for discussion. While this guideline doesn't recommend dispute resolution venues, it suggests WP:NOR/N. Suggestions? Should this guideline recommend such venues? --Ronz (talk) 16:32, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
- This has come up from time to time. The usual answer is to discuss at the article's talkpage. If necessary, refer the question to WP:RSN, with courtesy notices on project talkpages, e.g. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine and the article's talkpage. LeadSongDog come howl! 17:21, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
External link?
User:WeijiBaikeBianji's talk page mentions this page, Warning Signs in Experimental Design and Interpretation by Peter Norvig, chief of research at Google. I wonder whether we might like to have it as an "External link" for this Wikipedia page? WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:31, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- Ideally, it would be great, but I think it would tempt new editors into thinking that it's okay to discuss the shortcomings of primary studies in Wikipedia. It's hard enough for scientifically-minded editors to grasp that reports including physical evidence are irrelevant to WP, except in the rare case where no reviews are available. I was wondering if the Greenhalgh references in Further reading should be deleted for the same reason. (Sad, I know.) Maybe someone could write an article for which these references would be relevant. Best wishes, Postpostmod (talk) 12:44, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
Editors may wish to take a look at this discussion, which is about the use of paywalled sources. NW (Talk) 02:59, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
Clarification of scope of guideline -- non-medical assertions in medical articles ???
I would like to propose adding something like the following in the lead, to clarify when this policy does and does not apply:
- Note that this guideline only applies to biomedical assertions. Even in articles predominantly about medical subjects, assertions which are not biomedical in nature (e.g. historical facts, biographical information, etc.) do not fall under the scope of this policy, and may use sources which adhere to the normal Wikipedia guidelines for reliable sources.
It could probably use some tweaking, but it should definitely be mentioned. For instance, in an article about vaccinations, we should not be requiring WP:MEDRS sources for biographical information about Louis Pasteur, even though the article is primarily about a medical subject. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 17:56, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- I think this is already clear in the guideline as currently written. It's explicitly intended to guide our presentation of medical information. If anyone is using this guideline to challenge appropriate biographical sources about Louis Pasteur, please let me know and I'll add my voice to those trying to set them straight. MastCell Talk 17:59, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- I still don't feel that it is clear enough, however, I do feel that the recent change in article title somewhat alleviated this issue (i.e. the title isn't saying "medicine-related articles" anymore, it just says "medicine"). Anyhow, maybe I'll bring this up later -- seems like people are disinterested at the moment. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 21:37, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Version for science
This page is being adapted at Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (science-related articles) for non-medical science-related articles. Interested editors might want to put the other page on their watchlists. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:51, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
Anti-research spin most unwelcome
I just changed some verbiage that seemed intended, without coming out and saying it, to prohibit people from describing new and interesting scientific results in Wikipedia articles. I feel as if there is a certain sit-down-and-shut-up mentality that has long stalked the medical articles, in which the greatest of all terrors is that a patient might find out that there is a new drug or experimental therapy being used on a disease, perhaps in some other country. There is no WP:NOUSEFULINFORMATION and we have no ethical obligation to ensure that patients can't learn accurate information about hopeful research developments. I am not pleased with finding yet another anti-science guideline turn up, especially one that is supposed to be about identifying reliable sources. Wnt (talk) 19:29, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- We may be looking at different pieces of the puzzle. As a first point of potential common ground, do you think that entire articles ought to be built from primary sources? Assume that dozens of secondary sources exist (so it's notable), but the editor does not want to use them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:28, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- My issue with the current draft [1] is not so radical. I'm not suggesting that secondary sources should be omitted, spurned, or deleted, nor that they should not carry authoritative weight. However, when secondary sources are unavailable, it should be possible to create a section or a small article based on primary results, sometimes leavened with newspaper reports and perhaps independent commentary self-published by known experts. Publication of a primary source in a half-decent biomedical journal should be sufficient to demonstrate a concept's notability, and major conclusions made there should be at least as reliable as major news reports about political and social issues that are routinely considered valid for other articles.
- I understand that sometimes, mass media reports a provocative but overly hopeful primary result - and often in such cases, the original researchers carry a near-absolute conflict of interest, and the "newsfomercial" sounds like it's been bought and paid for. But even in such an extreme case, my feeling is that Wikipedia should report the popular delusion, but make strong efforts to get a broader point of view from those who disbelieve it. Because people who see such bogus articles are going to come here for more information, and either we can give them the broader truth, or we can send them out to do web searches on their own. Wnt (talk) 04:43, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
- Can you give an example of where Wikipedia would be improved by allowing editors to "create a section or a small article based on primary results, sometimes leavened with newspaper reports and perhaps independent commentary self-published by known experts"? Doing so would break nearly all of Wikipedia's policies never mind this guideline. One has to wonder why such information has not (yet) been discussed by wise folk in reliable sources. What makes us Wikipedian's better than them to disseminate such fresh knowledge to the masses?
- You are concerned above that we should give patients early access to the latest research news. That isn't Wikipedia's concern as we aren't a newspaper, magazine or medical charity. There are other resources on the Internet who do that and Google does a good job of finding them. WP:WEIGHT (policy) requires us to justify the inclusion of a topic/finding based on its weight within reliable sources. If no reliable sources have (yet) discussed this topic/finding then it has no weight. It is not the case that publication in a "half-decent biomedical journal" makes a topic/finding notable enough for inclusion. There is simply too much primary research to cover. WP:PSTS (policy) requires that interpretation of primary research requires a secondary source. An encyclopaedia describes the world as it is now, not how it might be in the future or how we might wish it to be if only....
- Far from being "anti-science", this guideline is firmly grounded in concepts like evidence-based medicine and a desire to prevent advocacy of quack therapies. The process of scientific research and advancement is to present ones research findings in a publication for discussion by ones peers. Until that discussion has taken place, the "science" process is only half-baked and including it here is usually premature.
- There are aspects of this guideline one wouldn't expect to find in the publication guidelines of any magazine or book written by known experts. Those aspects are influenced by the novel feature of Wikipedia: it can be written by anyone, anonymously. It is this that is largely responsible for the policy requirements that we can only really write about stuff other people write about (WP:NOR). Colin°Talk 14:53, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
- We're not a medical charity, but we are an information charity, including medical information. People should not be singled out to be denied information simply because they have a disease.
- To give an example, I just went to PLoS Biology and found this article. This article can and should be referenced from IL-6 or obesity to say something like "In mice, IL-6 activity in the hypothalamus was found to mediate the ability of exercise to reduce food intake in obese, but not lean animals". The figure [2] could be copied and used as an inline figure, provided that it is labeled something like "proposed role of the hypothalamic anti-inflammatory response mediated by exercise" (which is how the authors labeled it). Wnt (talk) 16:18, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
- I should further add that the Discussion section of that PLoS article gives a reasonable review of recent developments involving IL-6 and obesity. As such I think that, despite the usual scientific usage, the section can reasonably be called a "secondary source" for the information it provides, though I would prefix "reviewed in..." to the reference tag just to be clear about the usage. It is very important not to allow policy to rule out the use of such sources, because open access policies did not apply to reviews for quite a while, and probably still don't where some private funders are concerned. So for most readers who actually want a source and not an invitation to buy an article for $36, we should be using such reviews in so-called "primary articles" as often as possible. Wnt (talk) 16:25, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
- So you think that free (as in beer) primary sources (e.g., original experimental results) are preferable to WP:PAYWALLed secondary sources (e.g., a literature review)?
- I suppose that one of the questions is whether you believe that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia (that happens to contain a list of references), or a bibliography (that happens to contain a text description of what one might find in the sources). (If the former, then your concern about presenting a reader with an invitation to pay $36 is unimportant, because our "product" is the sentences, not the sources.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:52, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
- By some variant of the equipartition theorem, I expect that the value of the text and the references should approach a fixed ratio, perhaps 1:1. Wnt (talk) 21:32, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
- To say we are "an information charity" isn't helpful, as WP:INDISCRIMINATE is at pains to point out. We are an encyclopaedia for the general reader. The primary research in that paper involved experiments on mutant mice and rats. There are very few places on Wikipedia where such basic research could be directly cited as a source. You are right that portions of such a paper can be considered a secondary source on the topic and this has been discussed before in the archives of this guideline. They are not the best choice and a very quick PubMed search for "IL-6 obesity" brings up 263 reviews, at least some of which look promising from their title alone.
- Issues of open access and paying for articles are red herrings. Remember also this is a guideline not policy so nothing is "ruled out". Colin°Talk 17:22, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
- Wnt, it sounds to me that you believe that the list of sources (presumably including references, recommended books, and external links) is half the value of each encyclopedia article. If this were generally accepted -- if the goal were to provide enough information to get the highly motivated reader started on a reading binge -- then we might favor free-beer sources.
- However, I do not believe that the community shares your point of view. I suspect that most editors would say that citations exist primarily (or even exclusively) for the purpose of demonstrating to ourselves that we've correctly written the article, not to save our readers the trouble of looking for other things to read. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:03, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Possession of a PMID
An anon at Talk:Blanchard, Bailey, and Lawrence theory is currently asserting that mere possession of a PMID means that the publication cannot possibly be a letter to the editor. This is not an uncommon problem (particularly in this group of articles). Would it be useful to mention that "in the database" is not the same thing as "a reliable source"? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:13, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, perhaps the "Searching for sources" should note that PubMed database holds all the articles in these journals, including editorials, letters to the editor and biographies, etc. Perhaps we should repeat that not all articles in "peer-reviewed journals" are peer-reviewed or are research papers or formal reviews of such papers. Colin°Talk 14:59, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
- Err, no. Unnecessary detail. In this case, however, I think it should be noted that it appears the person you are disputing with points to this InformaWorld response paper as the article in question, which you then say is a letter to the editor (CTRL-F "second paper"). It does not seem to be a letter to the editor - usually these are shown in collected form. Also, many full journal articles are titled "Letter", and in fact many journals are called Letters, so this runs into wikilawyering confusion (examples). I should also note that nobody should be removing primary articles, unless they are replaced with review articles, purely on the basis of being primary. If there's no original research/synthesis going on, WP:PSTS clearly allows primary articles and objections should be raised on substantive issues (e.g., research is emerging and undue). II | (t - c) 18:19, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
- I assume you meant "text sourced to primary articles" rather than the articles themselves. WP:PSTS clearly limits the use of primary articles as sources and other policy such as WP:WEIGHT is nearly impossible to satisfy if primary sources are the only ones cited. I agree that one shouldn't go removing perfectly decent text merely because the sourcing isn't first rate. Usually, however, that is a warning sign that things are not as they should be. Colin°Talk 20:00, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
- There was discussion a while back at WT:NOR as to whether research articles are really primary sources at all. Most of us think of actual data when we talk about primary sources, and that is how PSTS is worded. Research articles have lots of interpretive and evaluative discussion (read PSTS's description of secondary articles and see the similarities). A question: there's an research article on a RCT cited in a Wikipedia article. This research article discusses four previous RCTs on the same issue and summarizes what these articles found. Is that research article a primary source or a secondary source when it is cited to cover these earlier RCTs? II | (t - c) 21:21, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
- I assume you meant "text sourced to primary articles" rather than the articles themselves. WP:PSTS clearly limits the use of primary articles as sources and other policy such as WP:WEIGHT is nearly impossible to satisfy if primary sources are the only ones cited. I agree that one shouldn't go removing perfectly decent text merely because the sourcing isn't first rate. Usually, however, that is a warning sign that things are not as they should be. Colin°Talk 20:00, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
- ImpIn, that example is, indeed, just a letter to the editor, exactly like it says at the top corner of the page (did you perhaps overlook the label, which says "LETTER TO THE EDITOR" in all caps, on the gray bar?). Informa formats pdfs of letters (and all other content) separately so they can sell them separately. The format on the pdf is not the format in the paper journal. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:09, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
- I actually don't have the article, I just hadn't seen letters to the editor presented that way by any publishers. But I'll take your word for it and I apologize for questioning it - in my defense it's unclear why anyone would argue the point if "Letter to the editor" is stamped on the article. However, this also brings in another point - are letters to the editor necessarily unreliable? I don't think so, and often NPOV will require that we present them in order to present both sides of a contentious issue. Letters to the editor which are formally published are obviously better than "comments" like you see on PLoS One - we could perhaps mention that. But getting into the nitty gritty of technical systems in a guideline seems like too much information. II | (t - c) 21:21, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
- A letter to the editor (assuming it's not a hoax, of course) is generally accepted as a reliable source (only) for the fact that the author holds the stated opinion. The fact that letter writers hold opinions is not usually WP:DUE.
- Letters (and similar things) should not normally be used to 'debunk' or 'criticize' better quality sources. For example, in this dispute, we have:
- several secondary sources announcing that the dominant view is X;
- a primary, peer-reivewed source (Moser 2009) saying that the mainstream view is wrong about one detail;
- a letter to the editor (Lawrence) saying that Moser's survey was hogwash; and
- a letter from Moser (2010) saying that Lawrence's criticism of him is hogwash.
- IMO neither of the two letters deserve space in Wikipedia -- we do not pretend that two sides of a dispute have equal validity -- and the primary source should be included only in those articles that actually mention the disputed detail (e.g., this one, but not that one: after all, if the detail is too trivial to mention in a given article, then primary-source criticism of the detail is also too trivial to mention in that article). WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:59, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
- I actually don't have the article, I just hadn't seen letters to the editor presented that way by any publishers. But I'll take your word for it and I apologize for questioning it - in my defense it's unclear why anyone would argue the point if "Letter to the editor" is stamped on the article. However, this also brings in another point - are letters to the editor necessarily unreliable? I don't think so, and often NPOV will require that we present them in order to present both sides of a contentious issue. Letters to the editor which are formally published are obviously better than "comments" like you see on PLoS One - we could perhaps mention that. But getting into the nitty gritty of technical systems in a guideline seems like too much information. II | (t - c) 21:21, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia:RSMED listed at Redirects for discussion
Please comment at the redirect discussion. Should it be decided to maintain that redirect, a secondary consideration is whether it is wise to advertise it on this guideline page. It is one thing having a backup for misremembered typos [something that history shows not to be required as there are only a few links using it], but another by having this guideline confusingly known by two different names (MEDRS and RSMED). Colin°Talk 15:45, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- The RfD closed with no consensus. It is hard to delete things on Wikipedia, even things that would cause confusion and aren't actually used/useful: what links here. However, having the unused/unloved redirect is one thing. Advertising it on this guideline page is another. This guideline is not known as Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine), or by the old name Wikipedia:Reliable sources (medicine-related articles) (why on earth was it changed, anyway?), it is known universally as MEDRS. I can't see what benefit there is to having talk pages confused by some folk referring to RSMED and some to MEDRS. So I propose we don't advertise the RSMED shortcut, and the link removed from the top of the guideline. If you agree, could someone do the deed. My earlier edit was reverted by the person who added the shortcut. Colin°Talk 18:29, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
testimonial evidence
I disagree with your editor on the aspartame page. The root cause is wether to accept the position adopted by the government or to accept the testimonials of many people that have cured very serious illnesses by ceasing long term use of aspartame. While I have no problem with presenting the established viewpoint I would like to point out that personnel testimonials are acceptable in the courts and should be also included. I know this is against the no original research policy but the fact is that it is impossible for medical studies to predict the outcome of a 20 year exposure while personal experiences do just that. Perhaps the no original research policy should be modified when large numbers of people independently come to the same conclusion. Arydberg (talk) 13:06, 6 October 2010 (UTC)