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* FWIW: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Institute_of_National_Remembrance&diff=prev&oldid=937377995] {{tq| Don't know, don't care. If the content is valid and the user isn't disruptive, then it's not my concern who or what they are.}} - Francois Robere January 24 2020 laying out their position on material added by socks, or at least Icewhiz socks.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 20:51, 22 April 2023 (UTC) |
* FWIW: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Institute_of_National_Remembrance&diff=prev&oldid=937377995] {{tq| Don't know, don't care. If the content is valid and the user isn't disruptive, then it's not my concern who or what they are.}} - Francois Robere January 24 2020 laying out their position on material added by socks, or at least Icewhiz socks.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 20:51, 22 April 2023 (UTC) |
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* I agree with Ealdgyth's comment above: we should avoid "guilt by association". Like Ealdgyth, I too am not good at finding socks and I don't expect others to be better than me. However, since the title of this thread is "Elephant in the room", I would like {{ping|Volunteer Marek|Piotrus|My very best wishes}} to tell us if they knew that GizzyCatBella was an ex-EEML and a SP of Jacurek. Maybe I missed it, but I don't know if and where they have already publicly stated that they never realized GCB was an SP. If they haven't already done so, I wish they would do so now or explain why they didn't feel this circumstance prevented them from collaborating with GCB. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 19:43, 23 April 2023 (UTC) |
* I agree with Ealdgyth's comment above: we should avoid "guilt by association". Like Ealdgyth, I too am not good at finding socks and I don't expect others to be better than me. However, since the title of this thread is "Elephant in the room", I would like {{ping|Volunteer Marek|Piotrus|My very best wishes}} to tell us if they knew that GizzyCatBella was an ex-EEML and a SP of Jacurek. Maybe I missed it, but I don't know if and where they have already publicly stated that they never realized GCB was an SP. If they haven't already done so, I wish they would do so now or explain why they didn't feel this circumstance prevented them from collaborating with GCB. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 19:43, 23 April 2023 (UTC) |
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:I still believe that GCB and Jacurek are ''probably'' two different people. That was very long time ago, but I think Jacurek mostly did edits of the kind described in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement&diff=prev&oldid=418735071#Jacurek this AE request]. GCB had a different editing style. Also, GCB aggressively reverted my edits, even very minor ones, e.g. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stepan_Bandera&diff=prev&oldid=1138253851],[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stepan_Bandera&diff=prev&oldid=1138246427]. Jacurek never did it. I would say that GCB had a modest anti-Ukrainian bias related to Polish-Ukrainian conflicts, similar to that for Molobo, not Jacurek. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 20:32, 23 April 2023 (UTC) |
Revision as of 20:32, 23 April 2023
Frequently asked questions (including details about the summary page)
Target dates: Opened • Evidence phase 1 closes 09 April 2023 • Evidence phase 2: 17 April 2023 - 27 April 2023 • Analysis closes 27 April 2023 • Proposed decision to be posted by 11 May 2023
Scope: Conduct of named parties in the topic areas of World War II history of Poland and the history of the Jews in Poland, broadly construed
Case clerks: Dreamy Jazz (Talk), Firefly (Talk), MJL (Talk), ToBeFree (Talk); Drafting arbitrators: Barkeep49 (Talk), Primefac (Talk), Wugapodes (Talk)
Wikipedia Arbitration |
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A few more questions
1. Can we use (self created) graphs and tables in our evidence? There's a TON of info here and sometimes a graph is a much better presentation of evidence than writing a bunch of paragraphs. Grabowski and Klein themselves obviously use graphs and in particular I might wish to dispute them and what better way to do it than with a corrected graph?
2. Can I link outside pages, like substack in evidence or just somewhere on case page? This could offer the opportunity for more extensive discussion of issues but would not be officially "evidence" and would be "optional viewing" from point of view of committee members.
3. Who's Foo and why are people edit warring about them?
Volunteer Marek 06:08, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
- Charts are often included in evidence. I can't remember seeing a graph before but I don't see any reason why a graph can't be included.
- I don't understand the scare quotes around evidence. If it's not evidence or analysis I don't see why Arbs would want to read it. The structure of this case gives people unlimited words if they're producing useful content, with named parties being able to add 1000 words at a time. This 1000 word limit is useful because that lets it be summarized in somewhat reasonable parts.
- Not sure if this is a real question or meant as a joke but if it's real see Wikitionary for an explanation of what Foo is.
- Barkeep49 (talk) 14:38, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks, that helps. Yes, #3 was a joke. Volunteer Marek 19:19, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
Another question. Since User:MJL presented evidence and was quite active in the 2019 case (we also exchanged emails) [1] that involved Icewhiz and myself shouldn't they recuse themselves from clerking here? I am not implying or accusing or insinuating anything about them by brining this up. I actually *agreed* with ... most of their proposals in that case [2] Volunteer Marek 19:28, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
- MJL hasn't been active onwiki since February nor have they been active in anything behind the scenes. All full clerks were added as case clerks given the anticipated workload of this case (normally clerks volunteer). If MJL returns to activity during this case, I am sure they will make a decision about whether or not they need to recuse. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:23, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49 and Volunteer Marek: I don't see my judgement being clouded by anything I said or did four years ago since I never had personal stake in the conflict. I just came back to editing, so I don't plan on handling any of the more sensitive matters regarding this case. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 17:43, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
Scope questions
- What about editors in the topic area who are not named parties?
- Does the answer above change if the edits in questions are old?
- what about named parties in for example the current war in Ukraine? There are both good and bad things to be said about the behaviour of several of the parties there, depending on who.
Meanwhile, I am going to point to a noticeboard discussion that has evidence in the favor of a couple of the named parties and possibly against one. If the formatting is a problem please let me know Elinruby (talk) 06:18, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- I'd like to piggy back and ask for a clarification regarding the scope ("World War II and the history of Jews in Poland"). Are we talking about the topic area where those two cases overlap (i.e. Holocaust in Poland and related topics concerning "history of Jews in Poland during World War II"), or about both topic areas separately? Ex. would articles about battle of the Bulge and Statute of Kalisz be within the scope of this case or not? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:55, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- For a long time we were going to use a : in the case title to avoid this very question @Piotrus but then with the late change to what we landed on that got stripped out. Anything about Poland in World War II is in scope. Anything about the History of Jews in Poland is in scope. So no to the Battle of the Bulge, yes to the Statue of Kalisz. Barkeep49 (talk) 02:17, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49 Thank you. History of Jews in Poland makes sense as a scope/title, all things considered, but then what is the point of even mentioning World War II in the title at all? What article, even hypothetically, would be outside of the intended scope if this case as renamed to just "history of Jews in Poland"? In other words, isn't "history of Jews in Poland" the entire scope here? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:20, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Piotrus, the historiography of Poland in World War II which feels clearly included with-in the scope of Poland in World War II broadly construed doesn't feel as clearly with-in the scope of Jews in Poland, broadly construed. Essentially this concept started with the scope, and actually started based on a sanction Callanecc placed, and we worked backwards on the name. We spent a lot of time trying to get the scope right and this felt like the right balance of broad without going into all Polish topics ever (or even the broader scope that would include Ukraine). In the end it's entirely possible you're right that we should have just done "History of Jews in Poland" as a case name (WP:HJP is even available as a shortcut). Barkeep49 (talk) 16:17, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49 Would you mind linking me to the sanction in question? Maybe I am tired right now (approaching 2 am here) but I don't recall any Poland in WW2 issues being "contentious" recently outside of the Polish-Jewish history aspect. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 16:24, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- It came from this comment which I guess was slightly different than the ultimate sanction imposed. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:28, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49 I see. This may be conflating some issues - we are going beyond the scope of the paper that launched this proceedings, quite significantly, in both directions (both WW2 and the entire history of Jews in Poland). I am unsure at what point zooming out doesn't start interfering with our purpose here - that said, I am still unclear what is said purpose. I looked at the FAQ again and see "This case is not about the paper; the scope (as indicated on the case header) is the conduct of named parties in the topic areas of World War II history of Poland and the history of the Jews in Poland, broadly construed". So... that would include stuff like my 2005-2006 (formerly) Featured Article on Władysław Sikorski, Invasion of Poland, Katyń massacre, Soviet invasion of Poland (1939), or the still-FA-as-of-today Polish culture during World War II (2008 vintage)? Up to my DYK on Detached Unit of the Polish Army from two months ago? 99.9% of this stuff is not contentious, AFAIK. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 17:00, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- All of those are in scope for considering conduct, yes. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:17, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- Noting that many of the concerns we are currently addressing in this topic area were raised back in 2009 when that FA discussion was held... Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Polish culture during World War II/archive3. Like with so many other discussions Piotrus and Nihil novi appear to have bludgeoned that consensus into existence. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:26, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- Perhaps you are not aware that the nominator in such discussions (similar to Good Article Nominations and like) is explicitly expected to reply to and address objections raised?
Nominators must... deal with objections during the featured article candidates (FAC) process... Nominators are expected to respond... to... criticism
etc. Remind us, how many Featured Article nomination discussions have you participated in? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 17:56, 20 March 2023 (UTC) - @Horse Eye's Back you are welcome to submit evidence and/or analysis. This is not the page to do either of these things. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:57, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- I am currently at my word limit, if the existing evidence is summarized I will be sure to submit more (repeatedly, we still have two weeks after all). Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't something have to be summarized before it can be discussed on the analysis page? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:02, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- Perhaps you are not aware that the nominator in such discussions (similar to Good Article Nominations and like) is explicitly expected to reply to and address objections raised?
- @Barkeep49 I see. This may be conflating some issues - we are going beyond the scope of the paper that launched this proceedings, quite significantly, in both directions (both WW2 and the entire history of Jews in Poland). I am unsure at what point zooming out doesn't start interfering with our purpose here - that said, I am still unclear what is said purpose. I looked at the FAQ again and see "This case is not about the paper; the scope (as indicated on the case header) is the conduct of named parties in the topic areas of World War II history of Poland and the history of the Jews in Poland, broadly construed". So... that would include stuff like my 2005-2006 (formerly) Featured Article on Władysław Sikorski, Invasion of Poland, Katyń massacre, Soviet invasion of Poland (1939), or the still-FA-as-of-today Polish culture during World War II (2008 vintage)? Up to my DYK on Detached Unit of the Polish Army from two months ago? 99.9% of this stuff is not contentious, AFAIK. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 17:00, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- It came from this comment which I guess was slightly different than the ultimate sanction imposed. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:28, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49 Would you mind linking me to the sanction in question? Maybe I am tired right now (approaching 2 am here) but I don't recall any Poland in WW2 issues being "contentious" recently outside of the Polish-Jewish history aspect. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 16:24, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Piotrus, the historiography of Poland in World War II which feels clearly included with-in the scope of Poland in World War II broadly construed doesn't feel as clearly with-in the scope of Jews in Poland, broadly construed. Essentially this concept started with the scope, and actually started based on a sanction Callanecc placed, and we worked backwards on the name. We spent a lot of time trying to get the scope right and this felt like the right balance of broad without going into all Polish topics ever (or even the broader scope that would include Ukraine). In the end it's entirely possible you're right that we should have just done "History of Jews in Poland" as a case name (WP:HJP is even available as a shortcut). Barkeep49 (talk) 16:17, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49 Thank you. History of Jews in Poland makes sense as a scope/title, all things considered, but then what is the point of even mentioning World War II in the title at all? What article, even hypothetically, would be outside of the intended scope if this case as renamed to just "history of Jews in Poland"? In other words, isn't "history of Jews in Poland" the entire scope here? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:20, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- For a long time we were going to use a : in the case title to avoid this very question @Piotrus but then with the late change to what we landed on that got stripped out. Anything about Poland in World War II is in scope. Anything about the History of Jews in Poland is in scope. So no to the Battle of the Bulge, yes to the Statue of Kalisz. Barkeep49 (talk) 02:17, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Elinruby #1 and #2 are both answered in the FAQ. #3 is not in scope as I answered Elinruby elsewhere (after this question). Barkeep49 (talk) 02:22, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
Followup scope questions
- I pretty much figured that Ukraine would be too broad, Barkeep49. I completely understand that the scope is already very large. On reflection I should have asked a narrower question, though, so I hope you don't mind a followup. I was thinking specifically about those parts of Ukraine that were Polish at the time. Galicia and perhaps some other adjacent areas. My reason for asking is that I have been told, perhaps in error, that the matter of ties between the German Nazis and Stefan Bandera, OAN, etc, and possibly some Cossacks, was within scope of the previous case.
- If the answer is still no, I am fine with that, and simply won't spend words talking about such matters regardless of who is involved.
- Also if the question is no, one of the parties at least should not be a party if he has correctly represented his editing on Poland per se. But I suppose that this would be a comment for analysis?
- I am running late on my self-imposed deadline and will concentrate at this point on adding possible evidence even if I can't quite draw a line from A to B. So it must be Poland and must be World War 2, cool. I'd like a more precise definition of Poland - within its boundaries in 1939 for example? I will use that as a working model unless I hear otherwise and will consult one of the topic experts if unsure.
- I would however, when, the committee has time (I realize that:s probably funny right now) appreciate a clarification on whether, if the above is out of scope for this case here, those topics ever were in scope for the sanctions as they existed in say 2021 and 2023. I will not be starting a separate case about this regardless; it's water under the bridge but possibly causal to some things. Thanks. I saw the comment on section and on headers and got that, thank you. Elinruby (talk) 03:05, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Elinruby I recommend you read WP:BROADLY. So, for instance, Stefan Bandera is in scope only so far as it relates to his view towards Poles. I think that explainer will also address your question about what the definition of Poland is. Analysis about the actions of parties, based on the evidence submitted, does belong at analysis, that's correct. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:09, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
Time to add new parties extended by 2 days
In response to a request, the time to provide evidence with the purpose of proposing new parties to the case has been extended by 2 days. The new deadline is 23 March. All subsequent deadlines have also been pushed back by 2 days. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:36, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
Distortionists
The G&K paper that started this review states that Wikipedia's coverage of the Holocaust, especially the Holocaust in Poland, was intentionally made non-neutral by distortionists. I have written a short essay, and have included distortionist in the Wikipedia glossary, noting that the term is a personal attack because it violates the principle of Assume Good Faith. Is there anywhere in particular that I should note that the G&K paper violates the principle of Assume Good Faith. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:20, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
- Where are you sourcing the definition from? Particularly the "Only ever used as a pejorative" part, isn't it normally just a description not a pejorative? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:23, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
- You are, of course, entitled to your personal opinion, but I don’t think that you can make a policy pronouncement on behalf of the whole Wikipedia community, without some sort of discussion. Jehochman Talk 21:16, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
- The word "distortionist" is nothing more than an accusation of a specific type of inappropriate conduct (making Wikipedia be less NPOV). Accusations can certainly be made, with a reasonable amount of evidence, without being a personal attack. Animal lover |666| 18:18, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
- User:Animal lover 666 - Yes, that is my point. The term 'distortionist' was used in the G&K paper as an accusation of inappropriate conduct. It is a personal attack when it is directed against a specific user; otherwise it is an "impersonal attack". Robert McClenon (talk) 16:35, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
- Let's not act that accusing someone of being a "Holocaust distortionist" is the same as being a "football history distortionist" for example; the former is often a career-ending accusation etc.Marcelus (talk) 18:06, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
- On the other hand, a Holocaust distortionist is not necessarily a Holocaust denier. A person who accepts that the Holocaust occurred, and agrees with its magnitude, would still be a Holocaust distortionist if they deny the aid that the Germans got from locals in other countries, even if the claim is genuinely believed by the person who claims it. Animal lover |666| 17:30, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- The word "distortionist" is nothing more than an accusation of a specific type of inappropriate conduct (making Wikipedia be less NPOV). Accusations can certainly be made, with a reasonable amount of evidence, without being a personal attack. Animal lover |666| 18:18, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
Shortcut
@Barkeep49: The shortcut needs to be entered as WP:HJP, not HJP. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:45, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
Done ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:27, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:53, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
This groundless implication is tantamount to defamation of character
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Purple_arrow_down.svg/20px-Purple_arrow_down.svg.png)
If I have unwittingly distorted Holocaust history or behaved in a manner unbecoming to a Wikipedian, I would appreciate being given specific information so that I may correct my conduct.
Nihil novi (talk) 20:53, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Primefac Just wondering if this is the right talk page for this type of a discussion, given the hatnote at the top "The evidence talk page is for procedural questions"? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:40, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
- I read it as "please add specific evidence about me", though I can see this as being more appropriate for the main talk page. Will consider moving it there after I've dealt with some other things that just popped up. Primefac (talk) 12:49, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
My contribution to this topic was limited to copyediting for English usage and to translating texts from Polish and Latin into English.
If no evidence of Holocaust distortion on my part is adduced, may I ask that the Arbitration Committee and my fellow Wikipedians clear my good name, which was libeled in the paper "Wikipedia’s Intentional Distortion of the History of the Holocaust" (9 February 2023) by Jan Grabowski and Shira Klein (on Wikipedia aka Chapmansh) that started this investigation?
Thank you.
Nihil novi (talk) 17:09, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
- We are looking at conduct issues in the topic area, so if you have conducted yourself in a manner befitting a Wikipedian then there will be no sanctions against you. The case is not about the paper, so if you wish to file a grievance with Grabowski and Klein you will have to contact them (or the publisher) directly. Primefac (talk) 06:53, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
- In that case, if I am found to have "conducted [myself] in a manner befitting a Wikipedian" and if "there will be no sanctions against [me]", will the Wikipedia community, represented by the Committee, issue a statement that it has investigated the allegations against me and found them baseless? Will steps be taken to discourage future unfounded attacks on me and other members of our community?
- This is effectively a judicial proceeding, as it can impose sanctions; and in judicial proceedings, it is standard practice to find the accused either guilty or not guilty.
- Thank you.
- Nihil novi (talk) 18:38, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
- Historically ArbCom has only commented on people for whom some level of wrong doing is found. However, the idea of doing something more in this case has had some discussion. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:47, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
- I will also note that if no evidence is brought forth (for or against a party) then we cannot really say much at all. Primefac (talk) 07:44, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
- My evidence+this+this+Nihil novi's evidence/argument moved here seem relevant. And this. And this. Quite a few volunteers feel attacked off-wiki by that piece, and/or find factual errors in it, as noted in the evidence. I certainly feel that by the end of this case the Committee should issue a statement on whether any of the parties investigated have been found guilty of "intentionally distorting Holocaust". This is serious stuff. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:30, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
- One option the Committee could consider is stating that they have investigated the claims of the paper, and draw a conclusion (or conclusions, plural) about those claims. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:23, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
- My evidence+this+this+Nihil novi's evidence/argument moved here seem relevant. And this. And this. Quite a few volunteers feel attacked off-wiki by that piece, and/or find factual errors in it, as noted in the evidence. I certainly feel that by the end of this case the Committee should issue a statement on whether any of the parties investigated have been found guilty of "intentionally distorting Holocaust". This is serious stuff. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:30, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
- I will also note that if no evidence is brought forth (for or against a party) then we cannot really say much at all. Primefac (talk) 07:44, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
- Historically ArbCom has only commented on people for whom some level of wrong doing is found. However, the idea of doing something more in this case has had some discussion. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:47, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
Evidence Phase 1 extended
The first evidence phase has been extended to 23:59 (UTC) on 9 April. At this particular point in time the drafters do not expect other phases will need to be extended to accommodate this change, but if necessary we will make that announcement. This will be the last evidence phase 1 extension, so please prioritise your outstanding evidence if it is longer than the current limits. Primefac (talk) 17:12, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
Good luck, everyone
I am not much active here these days due to personal circumstances, but as an ArbCom "frequent flyer" I wanted to leave my $0.02.
My example for Wikipedia skeptics for years was our coverage of Israel / Palestine, where we have highly motivated editors with pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian sympathies, but also a substantial body of neutral commentary available in English to help independent editors fact-check, and a willingness, in most cases, to accept defeat or compromise, usually gracefully. The Israel / Palestine cases have proven a solid model, in my view, and can work where there's near-equality of arms on both sides of a dispute.
The Poland case is the counter-example: the most motivated editors are very much on one side, many of the contentious sources are not in English, there's limited neutral commentary in English on the right-wing revisionist agenda and its historical accuracy, which is the point at issue, and a reasonably adept use of fact-washing by the Polish right. This leads to a ratchet effect and contributes to acute stress on anybody who even tries to keep things neutral, leading in turn to some particularly uncomfortable media commentary. I have also long suspected that there is covert paid editing (at least in the sense of employing people in a communications role who then edit as part of that role) by Polish revisionists.
The old adage about sausage being made springs to mind, and here you must not only make the sausage in full view, but do so under off-Wiki scrutiny from a delightful mix of extreme nationalists, (mostly justifiably) outraged Jewish authors, and chaos agents. I wish you luck, and I hope you find a solution that works. Guy (help! - typo?) 19:56, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
- If I understand the sequence of events correctly, and assuming your statements are accurate, then it seems that Arbcom felt that Wikipedia's reputation was jeopardized by problems unearthed in a scholarly assessment of a certain set of articles. In reaction, having no viable alternative, Arbcom threw the problem back to the "community" that had caused the problem in the first place, in hopes for a better outcome. Coretheapple (talk) 14:25, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
- There are a number of key differences between the two. The Israeli/Arab dispute is - at least as far as most of the articles are concerned - about recent events which many editors have some real-time familiarity with; World War II and the Holocaust ended 70 years ago, so very few editors are old enough to have been aware of world news at the time. And now we're in a time where news gets around the world quickly. Any editor can find English-language reports of nearly anything in current news if they simply know where to look; this would probably be impossible for 1940s Europe. Both sides in the Israeli-Arab conflict are represented by entities with enough independence to have their own press unimpeeded by external entities; this is not the case with areas which were under Nazi control during World War II.
- I suspect there's an other major issue in that too many users from one side "took over" the consensus on the issue before the other side started trying; this did not happen with the Israeli-Arab conflict.
- I sure hope ArbCom can actually deal with the issue of determining whether or not the content on this topic follows NPOV, and make appropriate ground rules (including TBans) if not. I suspect Icewhiz was probably sanctioned inappropriately at first, and that was what drove him to his extremely bad behavior. ArbCom should also explicitly address any major accusations here, better say the evidence on some reported wrong-doing is inconclusive than ignore it in the final decision. They can even warn a user if his/her behavior comes close to the line, although anything stronger is only appropriate if they're convinced there's conclusive evidence of actual wrong-doing. Animal lover |666| 16:40, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
- Very good points. One is a current dispute that presumably could arouse a plethora of editors on both sides. This one is historical and more prone to one side or another having a numerical advantage. What if one side decided not to even show up, or put on a token or inadequate case? What then? Would Arbcom take that into consideration? Are they even equipped to do so? Coretheapple (talk) 17:29, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
- It's not that no users take the other side; it's that one side took over before the other side did anything, and then it was too late to do anything without excessive CANVASSing. Icewhiz certainly tried, and his battle with this group gradually lead him to the point of being kicked out of the Wikimedia superproject; others have tried and gave up due to the fights with this group. When User:Beeblebrox said, in ArbCom's vote to remove VM's TBAN, that
I can't really hold the more recent possible violations against Marek as the community members who saw them felt it was not egregious enough to report them
, he was completely missing this point - these users knew that if they report him, other users from this group would make their Wikipedia experience much less enjoyable; the users who saw the violations simply preferred to ignore them for their own good - and that any sanction against VM would be ineffective in preventing the distortion (that is any rewriting of history - someone who agrees that the Holocaust occurred and its magnitude, but claims that it was all the Germans' fault and they did it without local cooperation from non-Germans is still committing Holocaust distortion). Animal lover |666| 04:57, 17 April 2023 (UTC)- @Animal lover 666 - Just to set the record straight --> Nobody was distorting anything except for Icewhiz and the removal of Icewhiz from the project was not due to his disagreements or battles with a fictional group of editors. Rather, it was a consequence of Icewhiz's unacceptable behaviour of harassing and mistreating editors in real-life. - GizzyCatBella🍁 10:53, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- Icewhiz, from what I can tell, was trying to set the articles straight after several users were making them be highly inaccurate to represent the Polish version of events. When he, and only one of these users, were topic banned, and the others continued to distort these articles, his behavior went downhill to the point that he did need to be removed from Wikipedia. Animal lover |666| 12:03, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- I see your point (in the 04:57 reply). That relates to my fundamental concern, which is that Wikipedia processes apparently have failed, and yet Arbcom is returning to those same processes to fix the same problem. If there was gaming of the system in the past, if Arbcom was ineffective, what is being done to ensure that doesn't happen again? I qualify my statements as I haven't followed these subjects close enough to be sure. For instance, that whole Icewhiz drama you mention was not tracked by me. Coretheapple (talk) 15:38, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- I think this is too fatalistic and implies that past mistakes can't be learned from and avoided. One example would be that according to Arbs on the Committee when the last case request happened, there was just not enough arb capacity and attention (give a small committee who had to deal with WP:FRAM). To counter this we have lengthened the time of the case and are employing the summary style, in part, to make it easier for non-drafting arbs to analyze the evidence without necessarily examining a page which is already above 400kb. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:43, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49 ... it is extremely important for the Committee to allocate sufficient time now, exercise patience and refrain from rushing to ensure that their deliberations are thorough and effective in addressing the case. They should also be mindful of the potential consequences that any sanctions (even soft) may have on the real lives of editors. - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:10, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- I think this is too fatalistic and implies that past mistakes can't be learned from and avoided. One example would be that according to Arbs on the Committee when the last case request happened, there was just not enough arb capacity and attention (give a small committee who had to deal with WP:FRAM). To counter this we have lengthened the time of the case and are employing the summary style, in part, to make it easier for non-drafting arbs to analyze the evidence without necessarily examining a page which is already above 400kb. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:43, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- I see your point (in the 04:57 reply). That relates to my fundamental concern, which is that Wikipedia processes apparently have failed, and yet Arbcom is returning to those same processes to fix the same problem. If there was gaming of the system in the past, if Arbcom was ineffective, what is being done to ensure that doesn't happen again? I qualify my statements as I haven't followed these subjects close enough to be sure. For instance, that whole Icewhiz drama you mention was not tracked by me. Coretheapple (talk) 15:38, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- Icewhiz, from what I can tell, was trying to set the articles straight after several users were making them be highly inaccurate to represent the Polish version of events. When he, and only one of these users, were topic banned, and the others continued to distort these articles, his behavior went downhill to the point that he did need to be removed from Wikipedia. Animal lover |666| 12:03, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Animal lover 666: - I think we should remember the importance of AGF and avoid making accusations and casting aspersions. --evrik (talk) 16:49, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- "Distorting" refers to the result, not the intent. It can happen in good faith. Animal lover |666| 17:16, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Animal lover 666 - Just to set the record straight --> Nobody was distorting anything except for Icewhiz and the removal of Icewhiz from the project was not due to his disagreements or battles with a fictional group of editors. Rather, it was a consequence of Icewhiz's unacceptable behaviour of harassing and mistreating editors in real-life. - GizzyCatBella🍁 10:53, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- It's not that no users take the other side; it's that one side took over before the other side did anything, and then it was too late to do anything without excessive CANVASSing. Icewhiz certainly tried, and his battle with this group gradually lead him to the point of being kicked out of the Wikimedia superproject; others have tried and gave up due to the fights with this group. When User:Beeblebrox said, in ArbCom's vote to remove VM's TBAN, that
- Very good points. One is a current dispute that presumably could arouse a plethora of editors on both sides. This one is historical and more prone to one side or another having a numerical advantage. What if one side decided not to even show up, or put on a token or inadequate case? What then? Would Arbcom take that into consideration? Are they even equipped to do so? Coretheapple (talk) 17:29, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
Start of Evidence Phase 2 delayed
The start of Evidence Phase 2 will be delayed until 17 April to match the closing of Evidence Phase 1. Primefac (talk) 05:29, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
Why no Workshop?
As I see, the ArbCom decided to not have a Workshop for this case. I wonder whether explanation is needed as I've seen workshops in other cases. George Ho (talk) 18:38, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
- I suspect that, given the nature of some of the accusations in this case, ArbCom concluded that having workshop would be more disruptive than helpful. Animal lover |666| 15:01, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
- Back in January 2021, the committee had an internal discussion about workshops. They were such an ingrained part of the case process that I had assumed they were mandated in some way, but it turns out, they were basically invented out of thin air during the early days of the committee, before the private arbwiki was established. The original purpose was for the arbs drafting the case to workshop the proposed decision. That function moved over to the arbwiki, and the workshop became a more or less a free-for-all where some users were making well-thought-out and reasoned proposals, while others were just engaging in mudslinging while they waited for the real proposed decision to come out. So, given that they have always been totally optional, it is now part of the process of opening a case to decide whether it will have a workshop or not. In some kinds of cases, the more quiet ones, they can be helpful. In a case like this one, probably more harm than good. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:56, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- ArbCom policy refers to them as part of the standard structure of a case; it also permits ArbCom to change this structure as needed for a specific case. Animal lover |666| 17:41, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- Back in January 2021, the committee had an internal discussion about workshops. They were such an ingrained part of the case process that I had assumed they were mandated in some way, but it turns out, they were basically invented out of thin air during the early days of the committee, before the private arbwiki was established. The original purpose was for the arbs drafting the case to workshop the proposed decision. That function moved over to the arbwiki, and the workshop became a more or less a free-for-all where some users were making well-thought-out and reasoned proposals, while others were just engaging in mudslinging while they waited for the real proposed decision to come out. So, given that they have always been totally optional, it is now part of the process of opening a case to decide whether it will have a workshop or not. In some kinds of cases, the more quiet ones, they can be helpful. In a case like this one, probably more harm than good. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:56, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
Evidence Phase 2 open
The second evidence phase has opened. During the second evidence phase, only evidence that rebuts other evidence (see Rebuttals below) or which answers a question posed by an arbitrator will be allowed. Any evidence which does not meet this standard may be removed, collapsed, closed, or otherwise addressed by an Arbitrator or clerk without warning. Please read the instructions at the start of the evidence page for more information and details about how this phase works. Barkeep49 (talk) 01:19, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
Elephant in the room
Since no one else has had the courage to ask - what is going to be done with GizzyCatBella's evidence now that they have been blocked as a sockpuppet of User:Jacurek? (Yes, I find it incredibly ironic that much of their activity on WP lately had been fighting sockpuppets of Icewhiz but it turns out that they were a sockpuppet themselves..) I'm ... concerned that nothing has been done about this - at least some sort of statement about it's under consideration. We (rightly) don't give much credence to Icewhiz's opinions - in fact, much of the evidence by others seems to be implying that all the troubles are caused by Icewhiz socks - so I'd think that other sockpuppeting would also be considered a problem, right? Ealdgyth (talk) 12:56, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- You've got to be kidding me... I hadn't even noticed that happened. You are right, incredibly ironic. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:01, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49: will clerks be striking the sock comments? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:57, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- Let me start by addressing what I see as an implicit question in Ealdgyth's post: why hasn't there been a statement of some kind? As I noted on my user talk when asked about this, ArbCom does not normally give any statement behind ArbCom blocks and so the tag was itself more of an explanation than normal. In this post I'm going to write further yet, but I think (and htis would be a debate for another place/time) that the practice of not announcing/pre-emptively explaining ArbCom blocks is the right one for the project.As to the actual questions asked here, there hasn't been discussion about striking GCB's participation in this case (though under policy, because Jacurek is 3X banned by the commmunity there is a policy basis for doing so). I will bring this thread to the other drafter's attentions (though I presume they'd have seen it anyway) for consideration.One natural question not asked here that I would like to address: why now? At the simplest level, the answer is because now is when a majority of arbs voted to do it. However, there were discussions about timing and I suggested now was a good time to do it for a number of reasons, one of which I will share here. The malignant influence of socks in this topic area is present directly and indirectly in the evidence. One tricky aspect has been strong feelings about editors who agree with Icewhiz (or his socks). There are legitimate concerns about intentionally or unintentionally advancing the agenda of a rightfully banned harasser (and harassment fails to do justice to the harm caused). There are also legitimate concerns about those who feel that they are being penalized with guilt by association or by being unfairly accusing of themselves being a sock. By making the block now, it is my hope that we don't see a spread of this with a new sock. It is my expectation that those who feel that there was inappropriate conduct by parties based on collaboration with a sock provide evidence of that misconduct (some of which has already been entered into evidence for consideration). And if that evidence doesn't materialize or there isn't sufficient evidence to find that there has been actual misconduct with a sock, it is my expectation that there not be unfounded criticisms of those parties at this case or in the future based on the actions of a sock. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:27, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- I hope you're right, but the conduct of people (including GCB/Jacurek, I'll admit) in this case has been a lot of guilt-by-association accusations that are not the type of thing that would make me feel like getting back into the topic area is worth my time. Frankly, this case has gone much as I expected and I'm reminding myself that there's a reason I'm a pessimist mostly. I would hope that there isn't a spate of "so-and-so agreed with GCB so they are a problem" accusations coming forth... that's not helpful to a collaborative enviroment. I will go on the record here as NOT being of the opinion that VM or Piotrus should have known that GCB was socking - folks don't always see these things (and since I'm notoriously bad at finding socks, I can hardly expect others to be better than myself!) and they shouldn't be blamed for GCB/Jacurek's bad behavior nor tarred with guilt by association. I asked my question because just as I do not give much credence to evidence by Icewhiz (I've had several unsolicited emails that I deleted without reading) I don't think we should give much credence to GCB's evidence when it's not corroborated by other evidence from non-sockpuppets. That's all. (I should also apologize if this is more rambling/disjointed than usual - we've had almost 4 inches of precipitation in the last week plus the spring snowmelt and my sump pump ... gave up the ghost last night so I had to get up every couple of hours and run the backup pump throughout the night and I'm severely lacking sleep... ah, the joys of living in the northwoods...) Ealdgyth (talk) 16:42, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- Just a note that we are discussing this issue, but I will say that my initial thought is to leave the summarised evidence; one of the primary reasons to have a summary-style evidence page is to avoid the necessity of asking who provided which evidence. This may change but I thought it was worth noting while we deliberate. Primefac (talk) 18:25, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- I'm going to go on record as saying I don't think that's a good idea - that just rewards sockpuppetry. I mean, if we're going to allow a banned user to submit evidence ... the whole argument from many submissions that the G&K paper just repeats Icewhiz's accusations and thus the paper should be discounted is ... not really based on any strong footing because evidence from another banned user is allowed to stand. (I'm just pointing out the argument ... I haven't based any of my evidence on anything from G&K, I dug into the articles myself to find what I submitted... and I do not think we should be giving credence to Icewhiz OR other banned users) Ealdgyth (talk) 18:51, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- Would allowing a banned user to post evidence not outright defeat the purpose of banning said user? ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 00:44, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- I think that leaving summarized evidence but striking their actual comments (particularly on analysis and talk) would be a good compromise. While I sympathize with Ealdgyth and GhostOfDanGurney's fruit of the poisonous tree argument I don't think we should be throwing out evidence after the period to submit evidence has been closed (I find it likely that if GCB had not submitted the evidence someone else would have). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:56, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- On the other hand, I feel that if it were one of Jacurek/GCB's opponents that had been banned as a sock instead of them, they'd be the first one here to demand their evidence be struck. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 15:06, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Where Ealdgyth said "I would hope that there isn't a spate of "so-and-so agreed with GCB so they are a problem" accusations coming forth", it sure didn't take long: [3]. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:24, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- I think you're probably right, TBH I would not be surprised if we discover an Icewhiz sock as we proceed and I think this would set a solid precedent for that eventuality. Full disclosure I had pegged GCB as a likely sock but I was actually operating under the theory that they were an Icewhiz poison pill/chaos agent which was a case I couldn't put together because obviously in hindsight it was completely wrong. What I'm surprised by is that there is a sockmaster involved who wasn't on my (our? they don't appear to be mentioned previously) radar not that there was sockmaster involvement. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:50, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- On the other hand, I feel that if it were one of Jacurek/GCB's opponents that had been banned as a sock instead of them, they'd be the first one here to demand their evidence be struck. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 15:06, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Just a note that we are discussing this issue, but I will say that my initial thought is to leave the summarised evidence; one of the primary reasons to have a summary-style evidence page is to avoid the necessity of asking who provided which evidence. This may change but I thought it was worth noting while we deliberate. Primefac (talk) 18:25, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- How long has arbcom known that GCB was a sock? (Disclosure: I initially emailed BK and he said to feel free to ask onwiki for an answer.) Levivich (talk) 18:13, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- Checkusers were emailed the allegations with evidence in Dec 2021 and the discussion indicated that group found the evidence inconclusive. When the case was opened, ArbCom was reminded (or for Arbs who weren't CUs at the time told) about that allegation. Some further investigation was completed but no conclusion was reached. After the end of the first evidence phase, further investigation was done and eventually enough arbs were convinced that the block got majority support and was implemented. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:18, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- I hope you're right, but the conduct of people (including GCB/Jacurek, I'll admit) in this case has been a lot of guilt-by-association accusations that are not the type of thing that would make me feel like getting back into the topic area is worth my time. Frankly, this case has gone much as I expected and I'm reminding myself that there's a reason I'm a pessimist mostly. I would hope that there isn't a spate of "so-and-so agreed with GCB so they are a problem" accusations coming forth... that's not helpful to a collaborative enviroment. I will go on the record here as NOT being of the opinion that VM or Piotrus should have known that GCB was socking - folks don't always see these things (and since I'm notoriously bad at finding socks, I can hardly expect others to be better than myself!) and they shouldn't be blamed for GCB/Jacurek's bad behavior nor tarred with guilt by association. I asked my question because just as I do not give much credence to evidence by Icewhiz (I've had several unsolicited emails that I deleted without reading) I don't think we should give much credence to GCB's evidence when it's not corroborated by other evidence from non-sockpuppets. That's all. (I should also apologize if this is more rambling/disjointed than usual - we've had almost 4 inches of precipitation in the last week plus the spring snowmelt and my sump pump ... gave up the ghost last night so I had to get up every couple of hours and run the backup pump throughout the night and I'm severely lacking sleep... ah, the joys of living in the northwoods...) Ealdgyth (talk) 16:42, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- Let me start by addressing what I see as an implicit question in Ealdgyth's post: why hasn't there been a statement of some kind? As I noted on my user talk when asked about this, ArbCom does not normally give any statement behind ArbCom blocks and so the tag was itself more of an explanation than normal. In this post I'm going to write further yet, but I think (and htis would be a debate for another place/time) that the practice of not announcing/pre-emptively explaining ArbCom blocks is the right one for the project.As to the actual questions asked here, there hasn't been discussion about striking GCB's participation in this case (though under policy, because Jacurek is 3X banned by the commmunity there is a policy basis for doing so). I will bring this thread to the other drafter's attentions (though I presume they'd have seen it anyway) for consideration.One natural question not asked here that I would like to address: why now? At the simplest level, the answer is because now is when a majority of arbs voted to do it. However, there were discussions about timing and I suggested now was a good time to do it for a number of reasons, one of which I will share here. The malignant influence of socks in this topic area is present directly and indirectly in the evidence. One tricky aspect has been strong feelings about editors who agree with Icewhiz (or his socks). There are legitimate concerns about intentionally or unintentionally advancing the agenda of a rightfully banned harasser (and harassment fails to do justice to the harm caused). There are also legitimate concerns about those who feel that they are being penalized with guilt by association or by being unfairly accusing of themselves being a sock. By making the block now, it is my hope that we don't see a spread of this with a new sock. It is my expectation that those who feel that there was inappropriate conduct by parties based on collaboration with a sock provide evidence of that misconduct (some of which has already been entered into evidence for consideration). And if that evidence doesn't materialize or there isn't sufficient evidence to find that there has been actual misconduct with a sock, it is my expectation that there not be unfounded criticisms of those parties at this case or in the future based on the actions of a sock. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:27, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
We (rightly) don't give much credence to Icewhiz's opinions
I mean, good portions of evidence from FR are repetitions of Icewhiz's previous opinions. As is good chunk of the G&K paper overall. Also Gitz's, though at least rephrased. Volunteer Marek 16:22, 21 April 2023 (UTC)- Isn't it extraordinary that I'm rephrasing Icewhiz's evidence without even having read their evidence? Icewhiz must have superhuman psychic powers if they're able to manipulate me so subtly. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 01:26, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Indeed! I submit that it is time that we conducted a thorough investigation into who really composed Grabowski & Klein's essay, and whether Robere, Benjakob or Groceryheist have opinions of their own. If ran properly, I have no doubt we will discover that HaeB, of the Signpost, is none other than Chris Marlowe. François Robere (talk) 10:48, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- What? Volunteer Marek 18:19, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Exactly! François Robere (talk) 20:12, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Yup. Pretty much the same text. Thanks for reminding everyone. Now, what does Chris Marlowe or any of the others - other than you - have to do with anything? Volunteer Marek 20:14, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Exactly! François Robere (talk) 20:12, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- What? Volunteer Marek 18:19, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Finally we begin to get to the meat of the matter. I’ve been waiting a long time for this. Whoever sent the initial evidence, thank you. Jehochman Talk 00:43, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Also, strike anything posted by a banned user. If that leaves a gap in the evidence give users the opportunity to post replacement evidence independently of the banned user. Jehochman Talk 01:06, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- The problem with that is that if a different user (possibly not knowing about the sockpuppetry) was going to post it, but didn't because GCB already had, they have the right to have this evidence posted. This means we must ensure that this user - who may be on a one-month WikiBreak - has the right that this evidence be in. I would say the same for any ArbCom case, for any side: once the evidence is in, it should either be reverted quickly and immediately or accepted regardless of sockpuppetry. Animal lover |666| 05:42, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- Also, strike anything posted by a banned user. If that leaves a gap in the evidence give users the opportunity to post replacement evidence independently of the banned user. Jehochman Talk 01:06, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Thinking initially about the existence of socks on two "sides", but then thinking more globally about the case, it occurs to me to give ArbCom a pointer to WP:USTHEM. That's where you can find a description of the kind of conduct that, potentially, is more important to this case. There's an awful lot of noise on case pages about Editor X agreed with Editor Y, which demonstrates that Editor X is a problem. I suggest to ArbCom that agreeing on a content dispute is not, in itself, particularly illuminating of anything. On the other hand, the manner of agreeing or disagreeing is very much what ArbCom should be looking at – the presence, if any, of conduct in which agreeing or disagreeing is treated as being a WP:BATTLEGROUND. I hope that's a useful distinction. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:38, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- FWIW: [4]
Don't know, don't care. If the content is valid and the user isn't disruptive, then it's not my concern who or what they are.
- Francois Robere January 24 2020 laying out their position on material added by socks, or at least Icewhiz socks. Volunteer Marek 20:51, 22 April 2023 (UTC) - I agree with Ealdgyth's comment above: we should avoid "guilt by association". Like Ealdgyth, I too am not good at finding socks and I don't expect others to be better than me. However, since the title of this thread is "Elephant in the room", I would like @Volunteer Marek, Piotrus, and My very best wishes: to tell us if they knew that GizzyCatBella was an ex-EEML and a SP of Jacurek. Maybe I missed it, but I don't know if and where they have already publicly stated that they never realized GCB was an SP. If they haven't already done so, I wish they would do so now or explain why they didn't feel this circumstance prevented them from collaborating with GCB. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 19:43, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- I still believe that GCB and Jacurek are probably two different people. That was very long time ago, but I think Jacurek mostly did edits of the kind described in this AE request. GCB had a different editing style. Also, GCB aggressively reverted my edits, even very minor ones, e.g. [5],[6]. Jacurek never did it. I would say that GCB had a modest anti-Ukrainian bias related to Polish-Ukrainian conflicts, similar to that for Molobo, not Jacurek. My very best wishes (talk) 20:32, 23 April 2023 (UTC)