JohnBlackburne (talk | contribs) →Meta comments: +comment |
Brews ohare (talk | contribs) →Meta comments: Blackburne: crap |
||
Line 732: | Line 732: | ||
::Would you two care to take a little time off your food fight to comment regarding improving policy in this area? [[User:Brews ohare|Brews ohare]] ([[User talk:Brews ohare|talk]]) 14:46, 16 August 2013 (UTC) |
::Would you two care to take a little time off your food fight to comment regarding improving policy in this area? [[User:Brews ohare|Brews ohare]] ([[User talk:Brews ohare|talk]]) 14:46, 16 August 2013 (UTC) |
||
:::There is nothing wrong with the policy. What is wrong is trying to change policy to win a content dispute. To do this repeatedly, despite being already warned about it, is disruptive.--<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small><sup>[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 16:55, 16 August 2013 (UTC) |
:::There is nothing wrong with the policy. What is wrong is trying to change policy to win a content dispute. To do this repeatedly, despite being already warned about it, is disruptive.--<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small><sup>[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 16:55, 16 August 2013 (UTC) |
||
::::Blackburne: Unwarranted unsubstantiated pure bull. The discussion stands on its own as a clarification of policy, and your spite and bile have no place here. [[User:Brews ohare|Brews ohare]] ([[User talk:Brews ohare|talk]]) 02:05, 17 August 2013 (UTC) |
Revision as of 02:05, 17 August 2013
Spoken Wikipedia | ||||
|
Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 61, 62, 63, 64 |
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 60 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 2 sections are present. |
First two sentences of section "Primary, secondary and tertiary sources"
I think that the beginning two sentences of the section Primary, secondary and tertiary sources could be made clearer. Here's the current version.
- "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources, though primary sources are permitted if used carefully."
It looks like the first sentence is saying that secondary and tertiary sources should be exclusively used, prohibiting the use of primary sources, but then the end of the second sentence says that primary sources are OK. I think that the phrase "primary sources are permitted if used carefully" should be moved closer to the front for more clarity, and that what is meant by "carefully" should be clarified. Here's a revised version of the first two sentences that includes some other rewording too.
- Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on both reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, tertiary sources. Primary sources are permitted if one is careful to avoid original research. Secondary or tertiary sources are useful for establishing the topic's notability and avoiding novel interpretations of primary sources.
--Bob K31416 (talk) 19:38, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- The problem is selective quotation to present a conclusion in WIkipedia's voice. Maybe that needs to spelled out? ----Snowded TALK 21:41, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- If so, that would be for somewhere other than this beginning part of the section, which is a more general statement in both the present and suggested versions. --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:12, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- The problem is selective quotation to present a conclusion in WIkipedia's voice. Maybe that needs to spelled out? ----Snowded TALK 21:41, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- I agree that the first sentence can be confusing to those who stop there and don't read the rest of the PSTS section. The problem is that the sentence is talking about appropriate sourcing for an entire article (when viewed as a whole) ... it isn't talking about sourcing specific information within an article. But too many editors read it as applying to specifics (which leads to the mistaken idea that primary source = bad source). Now... can we find a way to restate the sentence so we keep the intended meaning and yet avoid the misunderstanding.
- As a start to the discussion... what about something like:
- Articles, when viewed as a whole, should rely on secondary sources for the bulk of their information; While primary sources can appropriately be used in some specific instances, they are best used in conjunction with secondary sources).
- Something like this would make it much clearer. Blueboar (talk) 00:42, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- Your version seems to be including new ideas, whereas my version is clarifying the ideas that are already there. For example, a new idea in your version is, "primary sources...are best used in conjunction with secondary sources." Not even sure what that means. In my version I tried to use the wording that was already there as much as possible, whereas your version is completely different from the wording of the current version, which essentially throws away the work that went into the wording of the current version. --Bob K31416 (talk) 01:47, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- I don't mind adding "based mainly on"; "based on" has never meant "composed exclusively from".
- I also think that our explanation is lousy. True, we need secondary sources for notability. But using a secondary source doesn't actually "avoid novel interpretations of primary sources" (except perhaps very indirectly), and we need secondary sources for determining due weight/anti-cherry-picking, which this doesn't mention. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:03, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks. Looks like you noticed some of the reasons for some of my changes.
- Re the other part of your message, "we need secondary sources for determining due weight/anti-cherry-picking" — Due weight/cherry-picking could be a problem with secondary sources too. --Bob K31416 (talk) 02:58, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- I agree, however, the first sentence should be reworded differently than the way you suggested, to be clearer. I really think it was worded like that to weasel the implication that primary sources weren't allowed, but then saying primary sources are allowed. The realization is that primary sources shouldn't be omitted. It is really unclear, it depends on if you read it fast or slow that makes a difference in the interpretation. - Sidelight12 Talk 04:58, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- In that regard, note that my version is an improvement over the current version of the first sentence since: "mainly" was added to avoid the impression of only secondary and tertiary sources; and my version has the phrase "primary sources are permitted" directly following the first sentence instead of appearing later, as in the current version; yet my version qualifies that phrase regarding OR, i.e. "Primary sources are permitted if one is careful to avoid original research." --Bob K31416 (talk) 11:15, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- I also agree that secondary sources can be associated with cherry picking. The secondary source could use cherry picked data, but I propose do nothing about that part. The point is, secondary sources are as vulnerable to cherrypicking as primary sources. see WP:PRIMARYNOTBAD. - Sidelight12 Talk 05:08, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- That is only an essay, and hence a personal opinion. On the other hand: while an article can still be unbalanced when using only secondary sources, consensus is that this is much harder than when using primary ones. It would be similar to using or not using sources: we could have a great article without any sources, but it would be much harder. We have decided that occasionally some ideas do not need a source (since they are common knowledge), but otherwise we should cite. VERY (VERY, VERY, VERY) occassionally a primary source is valid, but IN GENERAL secondary sources are required. Moreover: regarding your sentence that "The secondary source could use cherry picked data" is irrelevant to us: What has to be neutral and balanced are our articles, not the references we based them on. References have to be reliable, published secondary sources, not neutral.--Garrondo (talk) 09:21, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- Side note: "only an essay" is a poor objection. Is WP:BRD "a personal opinion"? How about WP:Use common sense? People get blocked over WP:Tendentious editing—is that "a personal opinion"? The WP:Five pillars is "only an essay", too. I suggest reading WP:PGE. WhatamIdoing (talk) 10:37, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
- The problem here is that Original Research isn't really about which type of source you use... it's about how you use it. That basic concept is what is missing from the opening sentence. The reason why we caution people about using primary sources is that they are easy to misuse ... but if you use them appropriately they are fine (and indeed in a few situations they are actually better than secondary sources). Blueboar (talk) 12:40, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed, but indeed 99.999999999 of the times a secondary is better and to use a primary is to give undue weigth to its conclussions (why was that specific source chosen and not all the other existing ones?), advance an agenda and/or make OR. So IMO emphasis in secondary sources is even not strong enough.--Garrondo (talk) 14:25, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- That is only an essay, and hence a personal opinion. On the other hand: while an article can still be unbalanced when using only secondary sources, consensus is that this is much harder than when using primary ones. It would be similar to using or not using sources: we could have a great article without any sources, but it would be much harder. We have decided that occasionally some ideas do not need a source (since they are common knowledge), but otherwise we should cite. VERY (VERY, VERY, VERY) occassionally a primary source is valid, but IN GENERAL secondary sources are required. Moreover: regarding your sentence that "The secondary source could use cherry picked data" is irrelevant to us: What has to be neutral and balanced are our articles, not the references we based them on. References have to be reliable, published secondary sources, not neutral.--Garrondo (talk) 09:21, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- I agree, however, the first sentence should be reworded differently than the way you suggested, to be clearer. I really think it was worded like that to weasel the implication that primary sources weren't allowed, but then saying primary sources are allowed. The realization is that primary sources shouldn't be omitted. It is really unclear, it depends on if you read it fast or slow that makes a difference in the interpretation. - Sidelight12 Talk 04:58, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Bob K31416 the problem with you proposed change of wording can be read that while secondary and tertiary have to be published, it is ok to use unpublished primary sources. One of the planks of this section is that unpublished primary sources may not be used (this is crucial in many disciplines if we are to prevent OR). -- PBS (talk) 13:52, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- Note that the current version in policy has what you are calling a problem, so my version is not introducing that. Also, with respect to primary sources, my version adds the phrase "careful to avoid original research", so it's an improvement with respect to what you mentioned. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:24, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- Easy enough to fix... just specify published primary sources. Blueboar (talk) 14:33, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- Problem is not from unpublished primary sources, but the misuse of published ones.--Garrondo (talk) 14:45, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- That's probably true in most cases, and my version has the improvement of mentioning with primary sources, "careful to avoid original research". --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:30, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- Well, both are a problem. The second can be corrected by better explaining how to use various kinds of sources appropriately. Blueboar (talk) 15:34, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- If you think that adding "published" is worthwhile, then see if it has consensus and make that change in the current version of policy, and I will incorporate it here. --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:02, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- Well, both are a problem. The second can be corrected by better explaining how to use various kinds of sources appropriately. Blueboar (talk) 15:34, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- That's probably true in most cases, and my version has the improvement of mentioning with primary sources, "careful to avoid original research". --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:30, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- Problem is not from unpublished primary sources, but the misuse of published ones.--Garrondo (talk) 14:45, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Anyhow, at the beginning of this section is my offering. If anyone wants to implement it, as far as I'm concerned, feel free to do that. I'll be leaving this discussion now. --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:45, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- That's a very good idea to use the word published. "Reputable published primary sources" also works. Published primary sources are more common than realized. I support this proposed change. Peer reviewed can be used for scientific publications, and if the words peer-reviewed gets used, there probably needs to be an additional rule for that. - Sidelight12 Talk 01:33, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- Bob K31416, you may need to come back to vote on your proposed change, obviously. - Sidelight12 Talk 01:36, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- Disagree: I believe emphasis on secondary sources is best explained with current wording.--Garrondo (talk) 07:24, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- There are occasions when an article is dedicated to primary sources that are themselves self-explanatory. Such articles include Jefferson's writings such as Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of Taking Up Arms, Plan for Establishing Uniformity in the Coinage, Weights, and Measures of the United States and other articles such as International System of Units which is based on this publication. These articles would be meaningless if they did not make extensive use of the original text. Martinvl (talk) 08:26, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think that it's a good idea to introduce the concept of peer review. Peer review is good, but so is normal editorial oversight. Preferring peer review turns into "you can't use that anatomy textbook for basic facts, because it's not 'peer reviewed'. We'll have to stick with my cherry-picked pay-to-play journal article with a sham peer-review process, even though it says that humans normally have three noses." WhatamIdoing (talk) 10:46, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
- Disagree: I believe emphasis on secondary sources is best explained with current wording.--Garrondo (talk) 07:24, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
(So I'm a trouble-maker.) I've always thought that the distinction made between primary and secondary sources is more trouble than it is worth, and misses the point about what we want to allow and what we want to disallow. All sources can be misused. Novel interpretations are just as possible to make of a secondary source as of a primary source. Both primary and secondary sources can be either reliable or unreliable. Both primary and secondary sources can be either published or not published (though the distinction is not easy to define in these digital days). All sources are reliable for some things and not for other things. Really, once we are clear that novel interpretations are not allowed, that sources should be published, and that sources can only be used for information they are reliable for, what is left of the primary/secondary distinction that we actually need? Zerotalk 09:29, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- For historical articles I think there is a difference. If someone accurately summarises secondary sources, then they are creating a tertiary source (it is not OR). A summary of multiple primary sources that has not been made before and published in a reliable secondary source is novel interpretation of those primary sources and therefore OR. -- PBS (talk) 13:07, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- Historical articles are my specialty, and I disagree with you. There is no prohibition against mere summarising. What we do have is WP:SYNTH, that forbids us "to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources". That is typically easier to violate in the case of primary sources, since a secondary source is more likely to have already drawn the conclusion we seek. However, application of WP:SYNTH produces the correct result in both cases without the need to decide whether the sources are primary or secondary. I contend that we don't need that division. Zerotalk 23:37, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- Another important issue that many fail to see is undue weight issues. Imagine that we have 10k primary articles as possible refs for an article. The decision of which ones are included in the article is critical, and by itself a form of original research. A secondary source has already done that first selection on which primary sources are relevant and which ones are not, and also secondary sources also summarize consensus among primary ones. Moreover: an editor includes a primary one that is not mentioned in any of the secondary ones: in such case by simply using that source (even if perfectly quoting from it) is given undue weight to a non-notable point of view. I completely disagree with the estatement that we do not need the distinction: the use of secondary sources is critical to get balanced articles which are not mere laundry-lists of primary sources (which already is common in many articles).--Garrondo (talk) 07:20, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
- Historical articles are my specialty, and I disagree with you. There is no prohibition against mere summarising. What we do have is WP:SYNTH, that forbids us "to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources". That is typically easier to violate in the case of primary sources, since a secondary source is more likely to have already drawn the conclusion we seek. However, application of WP:SYNTH produces the correct result in both cases without the need to decide whether the sources are primary or secondary. I contend that we don't need that division. Zerotalk 23:37, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- At some level, I think that Zero is right: we have overemphasized this issue. This is partly because we had so many editors who thought that "secondary" was a fancy way to spell "independent" for a long time. It's also because there are some definitions of secondary that are so broad that you really don't want to use anything primary. For example, there's that historian who said that anything already published is a secondary source. Under that odd definition, then WP:V outright bans the use of primary sources. But under our definition, which essentially is that secondary sources are an intellectual product that involves analysis, comparison, or some other significant intellectual transformation of primary sources (so not mere summary, quotation, citation, or description, even though there are a few academic areas, like genealogy, that use such a definition), secondary sources are highly desirable, and primary sources can also be acceptable. WhatamIdoing (talk) 10:46, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
- The boundaries between primary, secondary and tertiary sources are a great deal less clear-cut than Wikipedia's simple declarative treatment of the subject would have you believe. What's this? Since it's an interview, there are Wikipedians who would have you believe that it's a primary source (and imply that it's therefore not to be trusted). But because it's been edited by journalists and bookended by descriptions of the man and his accomplishments, it's in a very different category from a (hypothetical) simple transcript of the man talking about himself. I view the whole area as quite problematic and although I do think we need to discuss it, I feel it should be (a) given less prominence and emphasis, and (b) tweaked for added caveats and nuances.—S Marshall T/C 11:26, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree. Part of why I never liked the way rules are based around primary vs secondary is that so many fundamentally different types of things are primary sources even by our definition. A declassified raw intelligence report, a travelogue written by the traveler, and an original research article in a physics journal are all primary sources but they are so different that lumping them together seems pointless. Much better to say that the intelligence report is unreliable because only expert analysts can assess such things in context, the traveler's impressions can be cited with attribution if reliable sources consider the traveler to be citable (which is weaker than requiring a reliable source to have quoted the same impressions), and that keeping science articles up to date with the very latest research is called splendid editing. Zerotalk 13:08, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Objections to proposal, switched order, added reliably published
To - 11:05, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
- "Reliably published primary sources are permitted if used carefully, and if one is careful to avoid original research. Secondary or tertiary sources are useful for establishing the topic's notability and avoiding novel interpretations of primary sources."
From
- "Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources, though primary sources are permitted if used carefully."
- Sidelight12 Talk 01:39, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
- At the moment it is not clear to me what we gain/loose with the change.--Garrondo (talk) 07:23, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
- For clarification. The order is switched to move a sentence part closer to the front, and "though primary sources are permitted if used carefully" becomes "Reliably published primary sources are permitted if used carefully, and if one is careful to avoid original research." The proposed restriction and existing restriction are used here. - Sidelight12 Talk 11:05, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
- At the moment it is not clear to me what we gain/loose with the change.--Garrondo (talk) 07:23, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
Separating proposal, whether or not rewording
- "Wikipedia articles should be based
mainlyonbothreliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, tertiary sources."
needs separate consensus. Let's work that separately.- Sidelight12 Talk 01:39, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
The proposed wording seems useful to me.:
- "Reliably published primary sources are permitted if used carefully, and if one is careful to avoid original research. Secondary or tertiary sources are useful for establishing the topic's notability and avoiding novel interpretations of primary sources."
It separates the purposes of the various types of source, distinguishing between 'presenting' material and establishing 'notability'. In my experience this distinction often escapes the notice of critics.
The comment by S Marshall deserves attention in another context - in scholarly work it is common for debates to rage for decades. The distinction between primary and secondary sources is entirely bogus. The originators of some ideas are hard to identify, and various arguments appear in all types of sources: journals, books, encyclopedias; and all are written by individuals, who may or may not have a balanced perspective. Like WP itself, these works are not useful for providing a definitive view of matters. The most one can hope for from any of these categories of source is some clues as to what are the various facets of a topic, and some of the pros and cons.
A WP article should serve to make the reader aware of the many currents flowing, but it may not be able to say how the tide is running. The reader of a WP article has to make their own personal decision about how the cookie crumbles. It is unrealistic to expect WP to find 'the best' sources to present a topic. To echo in part the comments above by Zero0000, the primary-secondary distinction in presenting material on WP (in the context of scholarly work as opposed to news events) is a crock. The governing principle is WP:NPOV. Brews ohare (talk) 14:56, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
- The current wording of WP:SECONDARY may not be perfect, but the suggestions do not seem an improvement as they do not address the fundamental reason for WP:SECONDARY. While many of the statements in this discussion are correct in general, at Wikipedia there is a special problem because we have to rely on sources, and that allows an editor to unknowingly or purposefully cherry pick sources that appeal to them. That problem cannot be eliminated, but the problem would be much worse if editors were able to select primary sources to assert some general conclusion (consider the creationists who would pick primary sources to claim that evolution is bogus). The policy requires that general conclusions be verifiable in secondary sources in order to reduce the amount of original research that occurs. A policy is useless if it says something like "you can do X if careful". That means that if I do X it is ok because I am careful, but if someone else does X it is bad because they are not careful. The current "if used carefully" is reasonable as the emphasis is clearly that articles should be based on secondary sources. On various noticeboards, the comment is often made that primary sources are fine for illustrating a conclusion from a secondary source—that is careful use. Johnuniq (talk) 01:49, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- Agree with Johnunig here. Many editors are more than capable of showing some judgement in use of primary sources, but others wish to use wikipedia as their vehicle to take part in "debates" that "rage for decades" to quote Brews. The current wording places some check on that ----Snowded TALK 02:37, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- Made half of the proposed change. There seems to be no objections to it. Someone questioned it, but for this part it adds more restriction to what they agree with. Meaning basically unchanged, emphasis was put on primary sources are allowed if "reliably published" and no original research. - Sidelight12 Talk 03:07, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- I do not see any advantages on your proposal, I believe current wording is more clearer. Others think similarly so please refrain from changing policy before clear consensus is reached.
I had asked for which advantages your proposal you believed brought and you did not even answer, so do not say that there was consensus.--Garrondo (talk) 12:47, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- You didn't ask anything, you said it wasn't clear to you. I Did in fact explain it, so I responded to your statement. I answered your statement. If you didn't get the question answered that you wanted, its because you didn't ask anything. There was streamlined consensus, all the editors agreed, except you only said it wasn't clear to you, which isn't a clear objection. I explained it to you. In fact nothing changed, only the clarification of the same thing. No one objected until now. - Sidelight12 Talk 13:03, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- You didn't ask that question, so don't say you did, when you didn't. And besides that did get answered anyway. - Sidelight12 Talk 13:07, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- "I had asked for which advantages your proposal you believed brought" you didn't ask that. you said, "At the moment it is not clear to me what we gain/loose with the change." And I responded to that STATEMENT, fully. So don't throw around accusations. - Sidelight12 Talk 13:20, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- While I have to note that I had not seen your answer, and hence you are right that I was not fair (I have crossed my comment and I am sorry for my comment) I still do not clearly see any advantages from your proposal, partly because I am lost with all this back and forth. Since I was not the one to revert it is still valid the issue that there is no clear consensus. I would recommend starting a new section with the smallest possible change and discussing it. If there is no clear consensus it would be better to leave it as it is.--Garrondo (talk) 19:03, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- Second part of proposal, changing from "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources." This move is more controversial, so each objection should be weighed carefully, and wait about week before it is changed after decided on. In order to not anyone feel slighted, and future editors can relate to this. Try to compromise somewhat. Suggestions and comments welcome.
- "Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on both reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, tertiary sources."
- "Wikipedia article topics should be mainly based on both reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, tertiary sources."
- "Wikipedia articles should be based on third party sources."
- Sidelight12 Talk 03:07, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- In regard to Johnunig's comment: that WP cannot support a policy that "allows an editor to unknowingly or purposefully cherry pick sources". Of course, that is a risk that every WP article runs. But restriction of the use of primary sources does not prevent it. If primary sources were banned outright, which would make the construction of WP impossible, one can still cherry pick the remaining classifications to the same end. An even more noxious way to cherry pick, which can be conscious or unconscious, and which also is very prevalent on WP, is cull sources for statements taken out of context. The cherry-picking remedy is WP:NPOV and that is much more easily enforced and less easily blown up into unending argument than differences over whether a source is primary or secondary or reliable, or whatever. Brews ohare (talk) 17:10, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
I think "Reliably published primary sources are permitted if used carefully, and if one is careful to avoid original research." is less than helpful as this is the policy that seeks to explain how to "avoid original research". I think "Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of [reliable published] primary sources." is much better. -- PBS (talk) 10:13, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, it is. But it remains a problem that in the context of academic topics, novel interpretation is best avoided using WP:NPOV because it is bias that is the problem, not the type of source. Novel interpretation is to be avoided when it is the WP editor's novel interpretation. If primary sources can be found for a point of view, it is not for us to judge its novelty beyond requiring a reputable publisher. Just be sure that all sides are presented and sourced. Brews ohare (talk) 14:55, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- The suggested wording does cover the idea that a secondary source can present a novel interpretation which we can then include in WP, while a novel interpretation only based on primary sources is not permitted. (we want sources as "to avoid" that latter situation). The NPOV aspect is a separate but important manner but outside the scope of this policy, so perhaps a line to NPOV should be included here. --MASEM (t) 15:07, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- The current wording is "to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources" is not "to avoid novel interpretation by primary sources". This was discussed at great lengths over the example of Wellington and "the nearest-run thing ..." see here in the archives. -- PBS (talk) 18:15, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- An excellent point, PBS, although perhaps a wording that does not rely on a single preposition would be less likely to be misread. Brews ohare (talk) 18:23, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- Masem: Maybe we should discuss this point a bit further. A secondary source, I suppose is something like the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy or the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, as two examples. The articles in these works are written by a single author (as are most encyclopedia articles) and their objectivity is that of the author. Now we could also look at an edited book of essays like David Chalmers, David Manley, Ryan Wasserman, ed. (2009). Metametaphysics: New Essays on the Foundations of Ontology. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0199546045.
{{cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: editors list (link) This collection is very much like an encyclopedia: it has editors, for example, and contains articles by individual authors. And we could consider journal articles by individual authors, subject to peer review and to editors again, An example would be Matti Eklund (2013). "Carnap's Metaontology" (PDF). Noûs. 47 (2): 229–249. doi:10.1111/j.1468-0068.2011.00830.x. Now, personally, I see no difference in any of these sources as far as reliability or parochialism. In fact, some pf these journal articles will be simply collected by some editor and published as a book on some particular topic. The protection WP needs is against a one-sided presentation, not the novelty (in our own inexpert opinion) of some published author's approach. The protection WP needs is provided by WP:NPOV. Using WP:OR to deny the use of any of these sources on the basis that one or the other is a greater risk to original research is not sensible, and curtails a full presentation of those topics or sub-topics too specialized to appear in a textbook or an encyclopedia. Would you agree? Brews ohare (talk) 18:23, 23 June 2013 (UTC)- All I'm saying that NPOV is the policy where the balance of viewpoints (if one is needed) is discussed in depth. The only aspect where NOR has a say is in the essence of trying to create a counter viewpoint within the light of NPOV by synthesizing the other one from primary sources alone. If you have reliable secondary sources creating novel interpretations, then the proposed language still works just fine - in so much as NOR's scope merits. It is possible that novel interpretations presented through secondary sources may not be appropriate for inclusion due to NPOV, but that's not NOR's problem to worry about - the reason to exclude them would be due to an imbalanced viewpoint and not the novelity of the idea. --MASEM (t) 19:09, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- And just an FYI, there has been a historical problem with editors overuse of the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy which is more (as Brews says) a collection of original essays than a secondary source. If anything we need to tighten up on some of these ----Snowded TALK 19:18, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- Masem: Maybe we are talking past each other. My idea of NPOV is that it says all and every published sides of a debate should be presented (with due weight). That has nothing to do with WP:SYN, which is about a WP editor going beyond all sources (not just primary sources) to invent their own (unpublished and unsourced) opinion. A synthesis by a WP editor has really nothing to do with primary, secondary, tertiary or whatever sources. It has to do with having zero sources. It has to do with going beyond the sources to say what you (the WP editor) wants to say. It may be that the author of any category of source has their own point of view - it is not for the WP editor to decide that published opinion is OR; only a WP editor's unsupported opinion is OR. There seems to be some confusion in this thread that somehow 'primary' sources are more prone to synthesis than other types of source. I don't see any reason to think that way. Do you share this view? Brews ohare (talk) 20:23, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- Any source can be a problem for an editor creating novel interpretations - an editor could use two unassociated facts in two secondary sources and come up with an inappropriate interpretation. The point that is being clarified that if there is an interpretation being done of sources, we must source to a secondary (and sometimes tertiary) source that makes that interpretation for us. We cannot use primary sources at all to support novel interpretation, but to be clear, novel interpretation are not only a symptom limited to primary sources, if that is what you are getting it. --MASEM (t) 20:39, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- It is possible for an editor to exceed the source no matter what class of sources he uses. It is possible for an editor to add up two or three sources to get something that isn't in any source, no matter what class of sources he uses.
- However, it is much easier and much commoner for editors to make these mistakes when using primary sources like "Effect of accidentally pouring fruit juice on cancer cells: an uncontrolled experiment" or "Personal experience: I cured my skin cancer by eating potatoes and dancing in the moonlight (well, and also with surgery)" than when using secondary sources like "Systematic review and meta-analysis of corticosteroids for accelerating fetal lung maturation". WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:34, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- So I guess we are on the same page here - the problem on peoples' minds is synthesis by a WP editor. The question is: What does restricting the use of primary sources have to do with that? WhatamIdoing thinks secondary sources are less likely to lead to synthesis. I guess the idea is that a review article will cover several angles, and the WP editor might conclude that there are a variety of facets to an issue and back off their own interpretation. But if a WP editor is prone to extrapolate beyond a source, though, the type of source is incidental. If synthesis happens, WP:SYN allows any WP editor to challenge a view that is unsupported, and my feeling is that such a challenge should be based upon there being zero support, not upon limitations on using only a primary source in support. What say you all? Brews ohare (talk) 22:29, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- We're agreeing the sources are incidental to making novel interpretation and original research. I think the point is that , if you know and source Fact A, and know and source Fact B, and there is a possible conclusion between Fact A and Fact B, then save for the most trivial cases (eg like WP:CALC allows), then the only way you can associate Facts A and B is if a secondary/tertiary source does that for you. That's what the proposed language is saying not-as-many words. --MASEM (t) 22:36, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- "if one is careful to avoid original research" was proposed since the beginning of this section, and this objection wasn't made sooner. The wording I made was fine. It was redundant to have what was in the title, because that's where people think more care should be emphasized. The proposed alternate is worse. "If one is careful to avoid original research" could be replaced with "if one is careful to avoid synthesis, and interpretations." - Sidelight12 Talk 02:42, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- We're agreeing the sources are incidental to making novel interpretation and original research. I think the point is that , if you know and source Fact A, and know and source Fact B, and there is a possible conclusion between Fact A and Fact B, then save for the most trivial cases (eg like WP:CALC allows), then the only way you can associate Facts A and B is if a secondary/tertiary source does that for you. That's what the proposed language is saying not-as-many words. --MASEM (t) 22:36, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- So I guess we are on the same page here - the problem on peoples' minds is synthesis by a WP editor. The question is: What does restricting the use of primary sources have to do with that? WhatamIdoing thinks secondary sources are less likely to lead to synthesis. I guess the idea is that a review article will cover several angles, and the WP editor might conclude that there are a variety of facets to an issue and back off their own interpretation. But if a WP editor is prone to extrapolate beyond a source, though, the type of source is incidental. If synthesis happens, WP:SYN allows any WP editor to challenge a view that is unsupported, and my feeling is that such a challenge should be based upon there being zero support, not upon limitations on using only a primary source in support. What say you all? Brews ohare (talk) 22:29, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- Masem: Maybe we are talking past each other. My idea of NPOV is that it says all and every published sides of a debate should be presented (with due weight). That has nothing to do with WP:SYN, which is about a WP editor going beyond all sources (not just primary sources) to invent their own (unpublished and unsourced) opinion. A synthesis by a WP editor has really nothing to do with primary, secondary, tertiary or whatever sources. It has to do with having zero sources. It has to do with going beyond the sources to say what you (the WP editor) wants to say. It may be that the author of any category of source has their own point of view - it is not for the WP editor to decide that published opinion is OR; only a WP editor's unsupported opinion is OR. There seems to be some confusion in this thread that somehow 'primary' sources are more prone to synthesis than other types of source. I don't see any reason to think that way. Do you share this view? Brews ohare (talk) 20:23, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- And just an FYI, there has been a historical problem with editors overuse of the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy which is more (as Brews says) a collection of original essays than a secondary source. If anything we need to tighten up on some of these ----Snowded TALK 19:18, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- All I'm saying that NPOV is the policy where the balance of viewpoints (if one is needed) is discussed in depth. The only aspect where NOR has a say is in the essence of trying to create a counter viewpoint within the light of NPOV by synthesizing the other one from primary sources alone. If you have reliable secondary sources creating novel interpretations, then the proposed language still works just fine - in so much as NOR's scope merits. It is possible that novel interpretations presented through secondary sources may not be appropriate for inclusion due to NPOV, but that's not NOR's problem to worry about - the reason to exclude them would be due to an imbalanced viewpoint and not the novelity of the idea. --MASEM (t) 19:09, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- The current wording is "to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources" is not "to avoid novel interpretation by primary sources". This was discussed at great lengths over the example of Wellington and "the nearest-run thing ..." see here in the archives. -- PBS (talk) 18:15, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- The suggested wording does cover the idea that a secondary source can present a novel interpretation which we can then include in WP, while a novel interpretation only based on primary sources is not permitted. (we want sources as "to avoid" that latter situation). The NPOV aspect is a separate but important manner but outside the scope of this policy, so perhaps a line to NPOV should be included here. --MASEM (t) 15:07, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Primary sources allow for Original Research, in other ways
- "the problem on peoples' minds is synthesis by a WP editor" That is not the only issue with Original Research. Primary sources allow for Original Research, in other ways. For example in Britain there is the 30 years rule when many secret government papers are released to the public. Let us suppose that on of those papers contradict what is in all modern histories of an event. A Wikiepdia editor should not quote that paper, if rubbishes the accepted history (eg that British Government did not have any prior warning of the incident (when the newly published cabinet papers show they did)), because that is OR, the article should not include the new information until this information is absorbed into a new secondary publication. Normally these sorts of sensational discoveries are reported on in the news-media, what should not happen is that a Wikipedia article becomes a news item because it is the first to publish such a revelation.
- Another example. There is a process to the integration of primary sources into the historical record. It may be that a primary source is found by an historian researching historical archives for information for an historical biography (or whatever), this will then appear as a footnote in the historians publication. But another method for the publication of primary sources as a catalogue of manuscripts (eg from boxes of papers in the attic of a stately home), and those published catalogues are then used by historians to help write new history papers. It maybe that in those published catalogues are papers that have not been include in any published history. Quoting such a source may be Original Research if the fact mentioned is not published elsewhere and it introduces, without synthesis, a novel piece of information. For example during his escape after his defeat at Worcester King Charles II passed thorough a village where he had an encounter with a Smith. It has long been speculated that this village was Bromsgrove (and is included in some secondary sources as a fact based on reasonable deduction from what is know of his route, the roads on the route, the location Bromsgrove and the Kings's description of the village)) However Bromsgrove is not named in the primary sources. If a paper is sitting in a published archive somewhere conclusively proving that he did, Wikiepdia is not the place to first include that fact based on a primary source that names Bromsgrove, because discovery of such a paper will be Original Research. -- PBS (talk) 12:44, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- Your two examples appear to be cases of undue weight, rather than original research.
- Also, you wrote, "If a paper is sitting in a published archive somewhere conclusively proving that he did, Wikiepdia is not the place to first include that fact based on a primary source that names Bromsgrove, because discovery of such a paper will be Original Research." — Actually, in your example, Wikipedia isn't the first place that includes that fact because the first place is the primary source. Also, it seems like you are using your own personal definition of original research, rather than Wikipedia's, when you wrote, "discovery of such a paper will be Original Research." The word "discovery" in this policy is referring to something that doesn't appear in any published source, rather than "discovering" a published source. Here's the Wikipedia definition of original research from the beginning of the lead of WP:NOR,
- "The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist."
- --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:31, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- Original research is not supposed to be done by the Wikipedia editor, this doesn't apply to the published source. You're introducing ideas that change the whole meaning, when we were trying to clarify and emphasize something. This is a nuisance, something wasn't objected to, and all of a sudden you want to object to it, then say a bunch of philosophy that you didn't say before that completely attempts to change the guidelines to something alien to Wikipedia. - Sidelight12 Talk 16:23, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- It is another reason for keeping the concept of Primary and Secondary sources separate, or, Bob K31416, are you suggesting that a primary source that to date has only been published in a catalogue and not analysed by secondary sources, can be used to contradict the established history of an event? If primary sources are used that way it would seem to me to be a classic example of Original Research and is covered by "do not ... evaluate material found in a primary source yourself". As to the other point Sidelight12 what exactly is it that is you are tying to clarify? Because from this conversation it seems to me that the proposed new wording is a change in meaning not a clarification. -- PBS (talk) 08:12, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- Re "are you suggesting that a primary source that to date has only been published in a catalogue and not analysed by secondary sources, can be used to contradict the established history of an event?" — No. As I wrote at the beginning of my last message, "Your two examples appear to be cases of undue weight, rather than original research." --Bob K31416 (talk) 13:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- I think Bob's right here.
- We do sometimes find it DUE to contrast the views of primary and secondary sources. The most typical case is for BLP reasons: "Secondary Source says Bill smoked marijuana. However, Bill says on his blog that it doesn't count because he didn't inhale." In other cases, we find it preferable to ignore the primary source, and in still others to omit all of them. But this is a decision of DUE weight, not of making up unpublished ideas.` WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:41, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- Re "are you suggesting that a primary source that to date has only been published in a catalogue and not analysed by secondary sources, can be used to contradict the established history of an event?" — No. As I wrote at the beginning of my last message, "Your two examples appear to be cases of undue weight, rather than original research." --Bob K31416 (talk) 13:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- It is another reason for keeping the concept of Primary and Secondary sources separate, or, Bob K31416, are you suggesting that a primary source that to date has only been published in a catalogue and not analysed by secondary sources, can be used to contradict the established history of an event? If primary sources are used that way it would seem to me to be a classic example of Original Research and is covered by "do not ... evaluate material found in a primary source yourself". As to the other point Sidelight12 what exactly is it that is you are tying to clarify? Because from this conversation it seems to me that the proposed new wording is a change in meaning not a clarification. -- PBS (talk) 08:12, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- Another example. There is a process to the integration of primary sources into the historical record. It may be that a primary source is found by an historian researching historical archives for information for an historical biography (or whatever), this will then appear as a footnote in the historians publication. But another method for the publication of primary sources as a catalogue of manuscripts (eg from boxes of papers in the attic of a stately home), and those published catalogues are then used by historians to help write new history papers. It maybe that in those published catalogues are papers that have not been include in any published history. Quoting such a source may be Original Research if the fact mentioned is not published elsewhere and it introduces, without synthesis, a novel piece of information. For example during his escape after his defeat at Worcester King Charles II passed thorough a village where he had an encounter with a Smith. It has long been speculated that this village was Bromsgrove (and is included in some secondary sources as a fact based on reasonable deduction from what is know of his route, the roads on the route, the location Bromsgrove and the Kings's description of the village)) However Bromsgrove is not named in the primary sources. If a paper is sitting in a published archive somewhere conclusively proving that he did, Wikiepdia is not the place to first include that fact based on a primary source that names Bromsgrove, because discovery of such a paper will be Original Research. -- PBS (talk) 12:44, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- "though primary sources are permitted if used carefully." proposed-ly changed to "Reliably published primary sources are permitted if used carefully, and if one is careful to avoid original research." What was obviously made clearer is emphasis that primary sources are allowed. All that was added was to be careful to avoid original research, which was proposed since the beginning and suddenly you want to object to that. Stop playing games. The page is about avoiding original research, and emphasis was put right there to "carefully" avoid it when dealing with primary sources. - Sidelight12 Talk 08:56, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
UNDUE is in Wikipedia:Neutral point of view for a reason that it is to do with bias and it is appropriate that it is in the NPOV policy. In the examples I have given above there is no bias involved, this is about the use of primary sources to do original research. This is also the reason for the use of "published" in the primary sources section (something that I have had to argue in favour of keeping more than once and to restore on one occasion). The problem is that as with the Bromsgrove example above it is possible that historians have overlooked a published historical manuscript (or have silently dismissed it). It is not up to Wikipedia editors to "enhance" the historical account by introducing such information if it contradicts all known relevant secondary sources (as opposed to helping to balance the view of competing secondary sources -- which is covered by UNDUE). This was once sort of covered in this policy by "or, in the words of Wikipedia's co-founder Jimmy Wales, would amount to a 'novel narrative or historical interpretation.'" -- although read in the context of the sentence in which it was placed it could be seen as a reiteration of UNDUE. The phrase was removed by SV in a large edit back on 18 December 2007, without AFAICT any discussion over its removal. Whatever wording is used, this policy ought to make it clear that publishing the type of information I have highlighted with two hypothetical examples is restricted by this policy. -- PBS (talk) 13:31, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
- PBS, it appears to be your belief that if I find a published primary source—perhaps a diary written during the 19th century, and some magazine decided that it would make good, cheap filler—and I use that published source to write something fairly trivial, like, "According to the recently published diary of Daisy Maizy, the famous Theodore Thespian had dinner with her and the rest of her family in the Maizy Historic Home on 23 November 1834" that—even though this information is directly and obviously in the published diary—then I have committed the sin of original research, because no historian had written about it.
- Do I understand you correctly? WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:32, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
- I have pondered on this hence the delay in replying. It is not something I think can have a simple rule like that of "Primary sources must have been reliably published". For example it would not be original research to use an article like "Wartime reports debunk Speer as the Good Nazi", or those I mentioned that are published in newspaper articles when released under the 30 years rule although newspaper articles about newly discovered primary sources are always in danger of the Hitler Diaries type forgery, but such publications usually have an historian verifying them before publication so that comes down to NPOV issues. Taking your example above should a detail from a newly published primary source that has not been vetted by an historian be used, maybe if it does not contradict the current historical record, but what if the historical record say that Theodore Thespian was dining with Ann Other Player on the night of the 23 November 1834 at the Railway Inn? Probably not. Let me give you another example Liddell Hart Centre for Military Archives, they have in there examples of boxes of archive material that have been catalogued that may or may not have been read, let alone published apart from the catalogue entry. See for example Papers of Rt Hon Sir Frank COOPER (1922-2002) and the box of . To use the archive "Copies, subject to the condition of the original, may be supplied for research use only. Requests to publish original material should be submitted to the Trustees of the Liddell Hart Centre for Military Archives, attention of the Director for Archive Services." Should such primary sources from archives such as this be allowable if their use introduces a novel historical account into Wikipedia? I think such use would be OR, what do you think? -- PBS (talk) 18:00, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think that we need to worry about primary sources that "may not have been read, let alone published". It is flatly anti-policy to use any unpublished source. It does not matter if the unpublished source is primary, secondary, or tertiary. You cannot comply with WP:V or WP:NOR by using any unpublished source.
- As for published primaries that contradict published secondaries, I think you have to balance all the facts and circumstances. One would normally omit the primary, but in some circumstances, one might mention the fact that some sources disagree. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:12, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
- Excuse my clumsy wording (I assumed in the context of what I had written previously) "may not have been read, let alone published" I mean published in a source other than as a listing in a catalogue. Usually the only way to show that it has been published elsewhere is to cite that publication. Let me give you another example
- Historical Manuscripts Commission (1904). Calendar of the manuscripts of the Marquis of Bath, Preserved at Longleat, Wiltshire. Vol. 1. His Majesty's Stationery Office. p. 33.
- contains a brief summary of the the garrison of Hopton Castle in 1644. But it does not list most of the names. A facsimile of the original document was shown on a British television program called Time Team and their historian having studied it concluded that the majority of the men listed were Welsh. If prior to the 2010 Time Team program, let us suppose that only the brief summary in the "Calendar of the manuscripts..." was all that had been published, if a Wikipedia editor had been to Longleat obtained a facsimile of the original, placed the 21 additional names in the list on Wikipedia, would that be acceptable or would it be a form of OR? -- PBS (talk) 13:52, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- Given that the manuscript is cataloged on a public website, and that any member of the public could travel to see it, I would call it "published". The real question is what you do with it on Wikipedia. If all you do is list the names and say they were members of the garrison (cited to the manuscript itself) ... that would not be OR. The names and the fact that they were members of the garrison are facts that are directly supported by the primary source with no analysis or conclusion involved. However, in order to go any further than that (such as noting that the names are Welsh) would require a secondary source. Now, I don't really see the point of simply listing the names of the garrison without going further (as a reader, I would expect some explanation of why these people are being mentioned in the article) ... so... I would remove the list as being pointless trivia... but not for being OR. Blueboar (talk) 14:19, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- Excuse my clumsy wording (I assumed in the context of what I had written previously) "may not have been read, let alone published" I mean published in a source other than as a listing in a catalogue. Usually the only way to show that it has been published elsewhere is to cite that publication. Let me give you another example
- I have pondered on this hence the delay in replying. It is not something I think can have a simple rule like that of "Primary sources must have been reliably published". For example it would not be original research to use an article like "Wartime reports debunk Speer as the Good Nazi", or those I mentioned that are published in newspaper articles when released under the 30 years rule although newspaper articles about newly discovered primary sources are always in danger of the Hitler Diaries type forgery, but such publications usually have an historian verifying them before publication so that comes down to NPOV issues. Taking your example above should a detail from a newly published primary source that has not been vetted by an historian be used, maybe if it does not contradict the current historical record, but what if the historical record say that Theodore Thespian was dining with Ann Other Player on the night of the 23 November 1834 at the Railway Inn? Probably not. Let me give you another example Liddell Hart Centre for Military Archives, they have in there examples of boxes of archive material that have been catalogued that may or may not have been read, let alone published apart from the catalogue entry. See for example Papers of Rt Hon Sir Frank COOPER (1922-2002) and the box of . To use the archive "Copies, subject to the condition of the original, may be supplied for research use only. Requests to publish original material should be submitted to the Trustees of the Liddell Hart Centre for Military Archives, attention of the Director for Archive Services." Should such primary sources from archives such as this be allowable if their use introduces a novel historical account into Wikipedia? I think such use would be OR, what do you think? -- PBS (talk) 18:00, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
- Whether you would delete it because it was trivial is beside the point -- see my example above about Bromsgrove and the escape of Charles I. BTW the Longleat library is only open to "established scholars by appointment" (if that is the site where this document is still stored) so the average reader can not travel to see it (however that is a detail). What happens if the catalogue entry instead of to the item is to "a box of documents relating to the 1644 siege of Hopton Castle"? I think that a distinction has to be made between cataloguing of a primary source and the content of that primary source being published. When the Calendar of the manuscripts of the Marquis of Bath (1904) was published, it contained many copies of original manuscripts, but some entries like this garrison list were summaries, so while the summary has been reliable published the content of the primary source may not have been. -- PBS (talk) 16:04, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- If the average member of the public is not able to see the document, then that fact is not "a detail", but is a critical fact that tells us that the document in question is definitely not published and that its contents are therefore not usable on Wikipedia.
- "Publication" involves making something available to the public, not just to "established scholars". The 1904 catalog is published: you may cite it to support a claim that Longleat has a list of who was inside the castle. The 1644 garrison list itself is unpublished (or was, as of the date you stipulated for this exercise): you may not cite it for anything.
- Have you read Wikipedia:Published recently? It already covers this, but if you'd like, we could expand it to specifically name "archived somewhere and only established scholars (or members of the religion, or whatever) are allowed to look at it" as an example of something that is not published. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:45, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- Whether you would delete it because it was trivial is beside the point -- see my example above about Bromsgrove and the escape of Charles I. BTW the Longleat library is only open to "established scholars by appointment" (if that is the site where this document is still stored) so the average reader can not travel to see it (however that is a detail). What happens if the catalogue entry instead of to the item is to "a box of documents relating to the 1644 siege of Hopton Castle"? I think that a distinction has to be made between cataloguing of a primary source and the content of that primary source being published. When the Calendar of the manuscripts of the Marquis of Bath (1904) was published, it contained many copies of original manuscripts, but some entries like this garrison list were summaries, so while the summary has been reliable published the content of the primary source may not have been. -- PBS (talk) 16:04, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
"carefully"
In the following excerpt from policy, what is meant by "carefully"? Is it referring to the sentence following it, i.e the sentence beginning with, "All interpretive claims..."?
- "Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources, though primary sources are permitted if used carefully. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors."
--Bob K31416 (talk) 02:19, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- Yes and no because I think one has to assume that the opening paragraph is a brief summary of the rest of the section, and so it also refers to the Primary sources paragraphs below. To understand why there is similar wording used twice one has to look at the history of the policy, picking one old version at random see for example the last version from December 2005, helps with that understanding. It would probably be a good idea to merge any of the details of that line not already covered by the sentence "Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so." and then remove it. -- PBS (talk) 08:41, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- Re "Yes and no because I think one has to assume that the opening paragraph is a brief summary of the rest of the section, and so it also refers to the Primary sources paragraphs below." — The Primary sources paragraphs appear to give an example and some explanation of what was already mentioned in the sentence following "carefully".
So it looks like the sentence following "carefully" correctly describes what is meant by "carefully".--Bob K31416 (talk) 13:47, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- Re "Yes and no because I think one has to assume that the opening paragraph is a brief summary of the rest of the section, and so it also refers to the Primary sources paragraphs below." — The Primary sources paragraphs appear to give an example and some explanation of what was already mentioned in the sentence following "carefully".
Right now discussion is regarding wording of when primary sources use is appropiate. Discussion is between saying though primary sources are permitted if used carefully or Reliably published primary sources are permitted if used carefully, and if one is careful to avoid original research.
I think that none of the two wordings is appropiate. They both estate that IF used carefully and avoiding original research THEN primary sources are permitted. This is probably untrue. The two (careful use and avoidance of OR) are pre-requisites to be used, but their fullfillment is not enough, since many times there will still be problems for its use, mainly realated to undue weight, existing secondary sources contradicting the primary, or enough secondary sources that make it redundant. I propose to change it to:
Use of reliable primary sources may occassionally be appropiate if they are used carefully to avoid original research or give undue weight to them.
--Garrondo (talk) 09:45, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I think that if we can produce a nuanced definition of the words primary, secondary and tertiary with respect to sources, we'll go a long way towards giving editors the tools they need to make the judgment calls that this topic area requires.—S Marshall T/C 12:29, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- Realistically, we want editors who edit articles, not editors who spend more time reading policies than adding good information to articles (maybe I'm exaggerating a little). So we can't really expect editors to dismiss from their mind the definitions of "primary" and "secondary" they have learned from their studies and occupation in favor of a definition contained in a Wiki policy while they are editing. But looking collectively at the various occupations and academic areas, "primary" and "secondary" are loosely defined. Thus we shouldn't write restrictive policies that would exclude sources that would be secondary in the minds of the group that wrote the policy, but primary in the mind of an editor who wants to use it in an article. Jc3s5h (talk) 12:49, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I just noticed that trying to explain what "carefully" means can incur the problem of giving a sufficient condition for the use of primary sources that allows violations of other policies and guidelines by not including all other restrictions in the sufficient condition. We should avoid this problem and the problem of the vagueness of "carefully" by wording the paragraph so that it states the requirements of NOR without contradicting the requirements of other policies and guidelines. For those purposes, please consider the following change to the subject paragraph, where additions are underlined and deletions are struck out.
- "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources
, though primary sources are permitted if used carefully. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors."
- "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources
- --Bob K31416 (talk) 12:55, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I disagree with using a qualifier like occasionally. There may be the instance where a page has a primary source three times used for the same reason, but then someone wants to remove 2 of those, because it says occasionally. For natural disasters, most that is available of them is primary news reporting. Secondary sources don't always catch up on the vast amounts of different reports from primary sources, or don't even have those facts discussed. Someone may ask an important question on a wikitalk page, and to find the answer to that, a primary source sometimes has to be used.
- The wording to Bob's proposal, while it is clear to understand, it is written blurry. All sources are primary, secondary or tertiary, but it did prioritize them. I think the purpose of it saying articles should be based on secondary and tertiary sources was for notability, and established publications. This suggestion is borderline ok. - Sidelight12 Talk 17:54, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- Please note that the only changes I made to the current version of policy was adding the underlined part, "and primary sources", and deleting the struck out part, "
, though primary sources are permitted if used carefully". --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:33, 26 June 2013 (UTC)- I noted that. It says these three types of sources can be used, which all there is. Its only additional meaning was to prioritize them. I think primary sources were separated from the other two for a reason having to do with established interpretation or a similarly related reason. - Sidelight12 Talk 03:06, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
- The changes are minor except for removing the vague term "carefully". It's essentially the same paragraph as the current version of policy but without using the word "carefully".
- I'm not sure this addresses your point, since, for example, it wasn't clear to me what your point was in mentioning, "It says these three types of sources can be used, which all there is", and whether whatever you are referring to is a characteristic of the current version in policy too. If you mean that the proposed version implies that all sources fit into these three categories, that is what the current version in policy implies too. Do you disagree with that categorization in the current version of policy? For the rest of your message regarding "prioritize", that's what the current version of policy does too. Do you disagree with that prioritization in the current version of policy? Regarding "primary sources were separated", if you mean they didn't appear in the first sentence in the current version of policy, that was part of the problem since the first sentence of the current version of policy suggested that primary sources should not be used by leaving out mention of them in the first sentence.
- Again, the only changes are adding "and primary sources" to the first sentence, and deleting ", though primary sources are permitted if used carefully" from the second sentence. --Bob K31416 (talk) 11:44, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
- The proposal said, primary, secondary, and tertiary sources could be used, and that's all that exists. The wording only had value in prioritizing secondary sources over the other two, which is fine.
- I noted that. It says these three types of sources can be used, which all there is. Its only additional meaning was to prioritize them. I think primary sources were separated from the other two for a reason having to do with established interpretation or a similarly related reason. - Sidelight12 Talk 03:06, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
- Please note that the only changes I made to the current version of policy was adding the underlined part, "and primary sources", and deleting the struck out part, "
- The wording to Bob's proposal, while it is clear to understand, it is written blurry. All sources are primary, secondary or tertiary, but it did prioritize them. I think the purpose of it saying articles should be based on secondary and tertiary sources was for notability, and established publications. This suggestion is borderline ok. - Sidelight12 Talk 17:54, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- From the original wording, secondary and tertiary sources had more in common than primary sources, that's why I think they were lumped together. Wikipedia is also a tertiary source so other tertiary sources could be competition to wikipedia, that's why it said articles should rely less on tertiary sources, also they were already complete. It may not matter that primary sources and tertiary sources are on the opposite sides of the spectrum, saying "to a lesser extent" for those two can be used is fine. I noticed what you struck out and added. - Sidelight12 Talk 09:28, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks. In your first response you wrote, "This suggestion is borderline ok." Do you still have that same opinion? If so, and since you are the only one to comment on my suggested change, it appears that I should wait until there is more support before implementing the change. --Bob K31416 (talk) 11:18, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- Its ok by me. Primary and tertiary sources were separated in the original wording per different reasons. The new proposal removes this, but the proposed definition in how they are used works out. I don't know how important or if it is important to keep this reasoning. It may not even be necessary, but my opinion on whether preserving the old reasoning is not strong. The wording is fine, it just removes the implicated reasoning that separated the primary and tertiary.
- Thanks. In your first response you wrote, "This suggestion is borderline ok." Do you still have that same opinion? If so, and since you are the only one to comment on my suggested change, it appears that I should wait until there is more support before implementing the change. --Bob K31416 (talk) 11:18, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- From the original wording, secondary and tertiary sources had more in common than primary sources, that's why I think they were lumped together. Wikipedia is also a tertiary source so other tertiary sources could be competition to wikipedia, that's why it said articles should rely less on tertiary sources, also they were already complete. It may not matter that primary sources and tertiary sources are on the opposite sides of the spectrum, saying "to a lesser extent" for those two can be used is fine. I noticed what you struck out and added. - Sidelight12 Talk 09:28, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- Based less on tertiary sources (per one reason), based less on primary sources (per a different reason). Primary sources run a higher risk of the editor interpreting it, secondary and tertiary sources are already interpreted. So the wording can be kept as you proposed, and state whatever it was not to interpret on one's own. Secondary sources can also be interpreted by the editor too. To use reliably published of all three types sources (as it is in the proposal), and not to use sources that are of the editor's synthesis, by one definition. Now that I think of it, the proposal seems better. (I may not be back soon to respond) - Sidelight12 Talk 12:16, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- Sidelight, if the secondary sources don't "catch up on" details that someone wants to know, then that's a signal that those particular details are probably unencyclopedic trivia. It is sometimes helpful to read professionally written encyclopedia articles on similar subjects, like this one, to keep some perspective. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:47, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
- Not necessarily. For plant perception articles, it talks about how plants react to stimuli. It was missing that plants could sense. A primary source was the missing link for information to add what allowed the plants to react. The Aurora Borealis had sounds associated with it, and I used a primary source by a university study to mention this in the article. Eventually a secondary source was added, but the primary source had to jumpstart it. The primary source is still the better source, it still explains the phenomena. There are other articles were insight is lacking, and primary studies could give what little evidence there is. There is not always enough effort available towards secondary sources to cover everything. Also there is information on molecules or plants, where there is ten years of research on it, and there is no secondary source to cover this research. From your link, I have an old version of encyclopedia Brittanica, that I used to use all the time. If a secondary source lacked for instance (maybe not in this case, but in similar cases) the exact time, epicenter, etc a primary source would have to be used. - Sidelight12 Talk 09:28, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- If you couldn't find a secondary source that says plants can sense things, then I suggest that you haven't looked very hard. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:07, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
- Not necessarily. For plant perception articles, it talks about how plants react to stimuli. It was missing that plants could sense. A primary source was the missing link for information to add what allowed the plants to react. The Aurora Borealis had sounds associated with it, and I used a primary source by a university study to mention this in the article. Eventually a secondary source was added, but the primary source had to jumpstart it. The primary source is still the better source, it still explains the phenomena. There are other articles were insight is lacking, and primary studies could give what little evidence there is. There is not always enough effort available towards secondary sources to cover everything. Also there is information on molecules or plants, where there is ten years of research on it, and there is no secondary source to cover this research. From your link, I have an old version of encyclopedia Brittanica, that I used to use all the time. If a secondary source lacked for instance (maybe not in this case, but in similar cases) the exact time, epicenter, etc a primary source would have to be used. - Sidelight12 Talk 09:28, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- Sidelight, if the secondary sources don't "catch up on" details that someone wants to know, then that's a signal that those particular details are probably unencyclopedic trivia. It is sometimes helpful to read professionally written encyclopedia articles on similar subjects, like this one, to keep some perspective. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:47, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
On noting the absence of sources
Apologies if this is a recurring topic; I haven't watched this policy page. I'd like to bring up a situation that I've run into repeatedly, where our policy creates difficulties. What do we do when no usable sources exist concerning a particular point, and where the absence of sources is a fact that it is essential for the reader of an article to know, even if we lack a source that tells us explicitly that no sources exist?
Let me give a concrete example. I recently made some revisions to the article Eigengrau, and on looking over the literature, I realized that the term has completely fallen out of use (it dates from the nineteenth century). There are only around a dozen mentions in the indexed scientific literature, and the last of them was 13 years ago. Now it is surely impossible for our article to serve the reader properly if it doesn't explain that the term is no longer in use -- but precisely because nobody uses it, there is no source that explicitly states that nobody uses it. My inclination is to handle things like this by applying WP:IAR, but sometimes I run into people who don't accept that approach. Do you think there is any possibility of tweaking the policy to deal with such situations? (Note that verifiability is not really at issue here. The statements in question can easily be verified -- it just takes a touch of effort.) Looie496 (talk) 21:21, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- Can you not just source that "visual noise" is a more recent term here (eg proving visual noise and eigengrau are one and the same?) --MASEM (t) 14:18, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- Just doing a rough check on Google Scholar, I don't think its fair to call Eigengrau as "completely falling out of use" as there's papers from 2000 that use it. So I don't think you can IAR and claim that. And of course, without explicit sources, there's no much else you can do. It is probably just the best to say that Eigengrau is related to the terms "visual noise" in terms of the phenomena. --MASEM (t) 14:49, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- Not sure I agree with this proposal. I understand the problem exactly but I think the current implementation of WP:NOR is correct and the result of its application to this sort of situation yields the desired result, it should not be included. Besides, isn't eigengrau used in this journal article from 2009? Which points out the problem of going with the proposal. I'm sure there is some review article or textbook out there that covers the use of the terms over time, it just needs to be located.
Zad68
14:52, 25 June 2013 (UTC)- Damn it, now I feel like an idiot. I still think my point is valid, but my "example" has blown up in my face. Looie496 (talk) 15:50, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- Looie one thing you're not is an idiot - when I see your name appear on my watchlist I usually think "Thank goodness Looie got to it." Side note: I'm probably going to be hitting you up for a review of an article I'm working on that needs a review from a neuro SME to fix all the mistakes I'm surely making.
Your example was actually good, it's just that it was good for illustrating the danger of the kind of OR you're talking about. If you're a smart guy with a solid handle on the medical research tools available and you can miss that kind of thing, is it a good idea to loosen the rules so editors even less experienced than you can make the kinds of edits we'd be allowing?
Zad68
16:00, 25 June 2013 (UTC)- The sentence in question wasn't necessary, either way. Editors can't be aware of every publication made on the subject, so anyone can make that mistake. But if a case came up where a fact had to be said to make the article work, but there were no sources for it, probably let the reader figure it out on their own. Alternatively, be alert for a new article to support it, or in an extreme case mention it as minimally as possible, and hope to find a source. - Sidelight12 Talk 08:56, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- Looie one thing you're not is an idiot - when I see your name appear on my watchlist I usually think "Thank goodness Looie got to it." Side note: I'm probably going to be hitting you up for a review of an article I'm working on that needs a review from a neuro SME to fix all the mistakes I'm surely making.
- Damn it, now I feel like an idiot. I still think my point is valid, but my "example" has blown up in my face. Looie496 (talk) 15:50, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Proposal re introduction to section "Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources"
The introductory paragraph to the section Primary, secondary and tertiary sources currently is
"Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources, though primary sources are permitted if used carefully. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.
I propose making the following changes indicated by one underlined part and one strikeout part for an addition and a deletion respectively. Also, there is a minor edit of moving the wikilink for primary sources to the preceding sentence.
- Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources
, though primary sources are permitted if used carefully. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.
The purpose of the proposed changes is to (1) clarify in the first sentence, rather than later, that primary sources aren't prohibited and (2) remove the term "carefully" which doesn't have a clear meaning, noting that the remaining part of the paragraph summarizes this policy's position on the use of primary sources. The above changes result in the following proposed version.
Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.
Please comment on the above proposal and also indicate Support or Oppose in your comments. Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 12:12, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- support - It removes the implicated reasoning that separated primary from tertiary, but that meaning is not lost. Its an improvement to say all three types of sources must be reliably published, and that other types of sources than secondary may be used to a lesser extent. - Sidelight12 Talk 12:21, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- comment – It is better than what it would replace. However, the last sentence has several problems, not the least being that its meaning is unclear. What are "claims about ... sources", and how is that related to drawing conclusions from the content of sources? Also, "must be referenced to a secondary source" is clunky English. Also, referencing claims to a tertiary source is not good? Finally, is it fine to make "interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims" about secondary sources then? Surely the purpose of the rule is to avoid OR, including SYNTH, regardless of where the raw material for the OR comes from. Zerotalk 13:34, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- The proposal does not change anything in the last sentence. Please note that the only changes proposed are the one part indicated by underline and the one part indicated by strikeout. Changes you would like to see for the last sentence are beyond the scope of the present proposal and can be the subject of a future proposal after this proposal is settled. --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:09, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- Tertiary sources are okay, except its similar to the equivalent of Britannica referencing a competing encyclopedia. This is not the exact case with wikipedia, since its goal is different than traditional encyclopedias. Wikipedia strives to be different than, and less reliant on other encyclopedias. Note, this is not the case with all tertiary sources, since some of them can be textbooks, and not encyclopedias. Also, Wikipedia:What_SYNTH_is_not#SYNTH is not unpublishably unoriginal only says original research is not allowed by the wiki editor, but it is allowed by the published source. - Sidelight12 Talk 07:45, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- The proposal does not change anything in the last sentence. Please note that the only changes proposed are the one part indicated by underline and the one part indicated by strikeout. Changes you would like to see for the last sentence are beyond the scope of the present proposal and can be the subject of a future proposal after this proposal is settled. --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:09, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
Statistical operations
I reverted an edit with had the sentence "Summarizations based on statistical methods, however, are original research by synthesis, as they involve the reinterpretation of data." A summary of the data (I believe that is what was meant by the word "Summarizations" is just that, a summary. It can include average (mean), standard deviation, skewness, median and mode. These can all be calculated in a purely mechanical manner. For the record, the expected value is often the mean value. It only becomes an interpretation when I try to explain what these values mean. I believe that the following statement is quite in order: "The average maximum temperature in June MyTown between 1964 and 2013 was 24°C and the standard deviation was 1.5°C. Martinvl (talk) 16:36, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
- The problem with the measures average - median - mode is that they are all measures of central tendency that are identical for normally distributed data but NOT for other distributions. In e.g. the Weibull distribution the average has little relevance. Nevertheless by reporting the average it gets meaning in the article. Similar issues exists for SD. In fact I have seen reports where the average gender = 1.49 with an SD =.50 where reported (meaningless) or response times with an average less than 1 SD above zero (implying that about 17% of all response times were negative..... going back in time). Therefore any statistical summary without paying due account of the distribution it was based on makes it likely that other editors will misinterpret those.
- For that reason alone I would prefer to err on the safe side and include "summaries based on statistical method" to original research. At least those that do not provide critical reflection on the distribution of the data. Arnoutf (talk) 17:11, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
- Another problem with ""The average maximum temperature in June MyTown between 1964 and 2013 was 24°C and the standard deviation was 1.5°C" is the precision, or lack of it. I.e. temperatures, especially extremes and averages, are often given to one decimal point, so 24 seems too imprecise. There are no conventions for standard deviation as it's hardly used but 1.5 seems far too imprecise: if it's accurate to half a degree then the actual value's between 1.25 and 1.75, a range of 40%. Even if it's accurate to 1 decimal place the true value is over a range of over 10%.
- Which shows why we need to base such statements on sources: so much goes into doing the calculation, not just what sort of average but the details of the calculation and precision, where numbers are rounded and in what way, etc. If experienced it's easy to make sensible decisions over how to do the calculation yourself but you are making decisions, ones that effect the result, and it is far from purely mechanical, at least if you're doing it properly.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 18:07, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Reply for Martinvl, Arnoutf and JohnBlackburne:
- About "Numerical summarizations" or "Treatment of numeric data" (that was not treated at source), based on routine calculations: I added a new section below, for discussion. --Krauss (talk) 18:38, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
- About "summarizations based on statistical methods" and the revertion: it involves some statistics expert work, so, the expert need to put its work into a reliable source. There are a "(statistic) routine calculation" at Wikipedia? Well, what is "routine" or "purely mechanical", based in the Wikipedia tradiction and history? There are examples of accepted wikipedist statistical work? I think we can adopt tradiction as parameter. --Krauss (talk) 18:38, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
PS: a typical confusion is about arithmetic mean (valid summarization) and expected value (mean and standard deviation calculated by reliable source). - Basic descriptive statistics ought to be accepted, so long as all the editors agree that the information in accurate and relevant. Nobody should object to looking at Heights of presidents and presidential candidates of the United States and saying "US Presidents have ranged in height from X to Y", even though range (statistics) is a statistical calculation. Editors aren't supposed to turn their brains off.
- If editors at an article don't agree on the accuracy and relevance, then they can have an RFC or discuss it at NORN to resolve the dispute, like any other dispute. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:05, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, can we add "Editors aren't supposed to turn their brains off" to the policy? Preferably in large, red letters. That throb with urgency.—S Marshall T/C 20:18, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
I think the words about statistical methods are not intended to prevent mechanical things like calculating averages. They are intended to prevent things like this: (1) applying a statistical test (say a t-test) to determine that US presidents are significantly taller than UK prime ministers. (2) writing that 80% of scholars have some opinion by counting journal articles. Zerotalk 21:53, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
- Mmm I think you underestimate how much brains can be turned off. Just today I reviewed a paper submitted to a scientific journal that reported gender (female=1, male=0) with following summary: Female: Max score=1; Min score=0; Mean=0.51; SD=0.50. If this is the level of statistics that university staff feels ok to submit to be published in a scientific journal I am worried that the "relevance" of statistics will rapidly become a cause for much heated dispute. So I would be extremely reluctant to allow summary statistics to be reported. It is probably not the calculation that is the problem here, but the interpretation...... (I am not kidding about the example; this kind of mess is seriously submitted to scientific journal - This was far from the only problem, so I advised the editor to reject the paper). Other examples I have encountered are things like Response time was on average 5.4 seconds (SD 6.7 seconds. Euhm, that implies the negative response times occur at less than 1 SD from average. ).(ok these latter numbers are made up but I have seen such things). Arnoutf (talk) 18:07, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- There's the question of when it's appropriate to use statistics, and the question of what to do when a source is obviously wrong. I think it's best to treat these two as separate questions.—S Marshall T/C 14:46, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Summarizations based on routine calculations
"Summarization" is a kind of synthesis, and "numerical synthesis" or "summarization of numbers" are also subject to check if they are "original research by synthesis".
My opinion: when source offer data, and wikipedist do only a simple "tratament of numerical data", it is exact, with no alternative interpretation; and is simple and reproductive because use only routine calculations. --Krauss (talk) 18:38, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
- Example-1
- Totals and subtotals are complements of numeric table presentation. If the source show (without any summarization) "
1+1+1+1
", Wikipedia article can express with summarization "1+1+1+1=4
". To express only the result4
, not explicited by a source, it can a point for discussion.
- Example-2
- A table with valid routine calculations and summarizations (generated informations). (see onMouse-over hints) Possible discussions: how many decimal places? Show diffeferences of the first line as "0%" or as null? Use it or not in the average? The table need captions explaning each calculated group? etc. So, discussion page can be used, or another wikipedist can correct the generated information.
quant. A | quant. B | Perc. of A | Diff. | Accum. | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
20 | 123 | 16,26% | 0,00% | 0 | |
40 | 234 | 17,09% | 0,83% | 0,83% | |
55 | 300 | 18,33% | 1,24% | 2,07% | |
115 | 657 | 17,23% | 1,04% | ||
(without background) Source data | |||||
(this background) Calculed by wikipedist | |||||
(this background) Summarized by wikipedist |
List of "valid nummerical summarizations":
routine calculations | summarizations |
---|---|
+ | totals and subtotals. |
+1 | counting elements of a table |
+ / | average |
... | ... |
- Are you familiar with WP:NOTOR? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:01, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks a lot! Let see if "Numeric summarization" is one or more of these things, --Krauss (talk) 20:24, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
- NOTOR-Simple-calculations: yes, as I said before, it is. But if we do not express here (if we do not by explicitly here), some people will say that is not, because "only a sum" is not a "big Summation", neither a "only multiply" is not a "big products of sequences"... So, we need express here that it is.
- NOTOR-Compiling-information: yes, I think it is a good conceptual reference, "it is a valid summarization if it is for compiling information".
- NOTOR Conflict-between-sources: hum... Perhaps a good point for discussion, see articles about Crowd counting eternal conflicts... A wikipedist cited ref1 and ref2, where "ref1 say 2000 people" and "ref2 say 6000 people", so, writes at Wikipedia article "
~4000 people (by ref1 and ref2)
", that is the average value (2000/2+6000/2)... Or is more encyclopedic to write "ranging from 2000 (by ref1) to 6000 (by ref2) people
"? - NOTOR Translation: yes, that is another good view... "1+1=2" so, wikipedia article can say "1+1" or say "2", they are synonymous, no matter about what the source say.
- I see nothing wrong with cataloguing the heights of the US presidents, plotting the height against the presidential number (Washington = 1, Obama= 44) and stating their average height, the standard deviation of their height, the average increase in height of each president in respect of his predecessor (slope of height vs number) and the correlation coefficient of the slope calculation. This can be done using built-in EXCEL function, so can hardly be original research. The fact that half the Wikipedia readership does not understand what the terminology that I used is immaterial - the manipulation is 100% routine. It is however original research if, in the article Heights of presidents and presidential candidates of the United States, I discuss the implications of these figures. On the other hand, if I were writing an article How to interpret statistical data, I see nothing wrong in using the same data as a real life example to explain how to use stats as I am not promoting a novel idea. Martinvl (talk) 21:04, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks a lot! Let see if "Numeric summarization" is one or more of these things, --Krauss (talk) 20:24, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Proposal to add subsection "Numerical summarizations"
As discussions above, #Statistical operations and #Summarizations based on routine calculations, I think that the subsection "Numerical summarizations" of section Routine calculations, or a similar text, can be added. --Krauss (talk) 11:08, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
(TEXT1 OF) Numerical summarizations
Treatment of numeric data is an encyclopedic issue: summarization by sum, average, etc. are necessary expedients, and should not be confused with original research.
Example: totals and subtotals are complements of numeric table presentation. If the source show (without any summarization) "1+1+1+1
", Wikipedia article can express with summarization "1+1+1+1=4
". To express only the result 4
, not explicited by a source, it can a point for discussion.
Summarizations based on statistical methods, however, is original research by synthesis, as they involve the reinterpretation of data. It is common to confuse the arithmetic mean (summarization) with the expected value (mean and standard deviation calculated by reliable source). In case of doubt (summarization vs. statistical reinterpretation), discuss first.--Krauss (talk) 11:08, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
May I suggest the following (using the word "summaries" rather than "summarizations". "Summarization" is not a UK English word).
- I oppose this. "US presidents have ranged in height from 163 to 193 cm" is a "summarization based on statistical methods". The statistical method in question is range (statistics). We do not want to ban this. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:49, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
(TEXT2 OF) Numerical summaries
The generation of numerical summaries of data using routine techniques such as summation or the calculation of averages, standard deviations and other processes that are standard spreadsheet functions are not "original research". However interpretation of the data using statistical methods is "original research". For example, stating that the average height of a group of 200 people was 180 cm and the standard deviation was 8 cm is not original research, but to make the statement "therefore we can expect 136 people (68%) to have a height of between 172 cm and 188 cm (180 ± 8 cm" is original research (unless it is being used as an example in an article on how to manipulate statistical data).
In case of doubt (summaries vs. statistical reinterpretation), discuss first.
Martinvl (talk) 16:03, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
(TEXT3 OF) Summarizing numerical data
The generation of numerical summaries of data using routine techniques (with valid routine calculations) such as summation or the calculation of averages, standard deviations and other processes that are standard spreadsheet functions, are not "original research". Example (see hint explanation moving mouse onto table cells):
quant. A quant. B Perc. of A Diff. Accum. 20 123 16,26% 0,00% 0 40 234 17,09% 0,83% 0,83% 55 300 18,33% 1,24% 2,07% 115 657 17,23% 1,04% (without background) Source data (this background) Calculed by wikipedist (this background) Summarized by wikipedist
However summarization of the (source) data using statistical methods is original research. Statistical interpretation like expected value creates a new interpretation of truth, so is not "only an encyclopedic synthesis". Below some few examples where common sense decides if is bether to avoid the numerical treatment (or to discuss before add treatment to the article):
Case | Valid interpretation of source | Looks like original research (need source or discussion) |
---|---|---|
Source show data as "1+1+1+1 "
|
Wikipedist show data with the summarization (like to add a translation): "1+1+1+1=4 "
|
Wikipedist show only the summarization: "4 "A footnote or a comment in the discussion page is recommended, when showing only the result of a (not obvious) summarization was done. |
Arithmetic mean | For data summarization, interpreted as average. | Interpreted as expected value, with mean and standard deviation calculated. |
Source show data as "0.22 ± 0.01; 0.30 ± 0.03 "
|
Wikipedist show some data item as sample, "0.22 ± 0.01 ", or show all as an (valid context) average "0.26 ± 0.01 "
|
Wikipedist round or add decimals: "0.2 ± 0.01 " or "0.220 "Or do an average without error propagation rules: " 0.26 ± 0.02 "... Or mistook, using propagation rules when should be using standard deviation.
|
Range (statistics) | As in arithmetic, the difference between the largest and smallest values. Same as MAX(X)-MIN(X) .
|
When have a more complex meaning, using the descriptive statistics interpretation of the concept of range. |
Source show a table or a list with N itens | Wikipedist show both, the itens and the counted N; or show only N for summarize the "volume of data" at the source. | Wikipedist use only N to interpret another measure, example Relative species abundance. |
...there are many other... | ... | ... |
--Krauss (talk) 13:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC), edited 8 July 2013 (UTC)
(TEXT4 OF) Summaries of numerical data
- TEXT4-COMMENT: At the risk of being overly inclusive, in my view this covers the main issues.
The generation of numerical summaries of data using routine techniques such as summation or the calculation of averages, standard deviations and other processes that are standard spreadsheet functions are not "original research".
There are two things that must be kept in mind:
- Numerical summaries can only be made if they make sense in the context. In practice this mean that summaries can only be made:
- if units of measurement are identical (adding 5 miles to 6 kilometers and arrive at 11 makes no sense)
- if (social) constructs are operationalized in the same way (e.g. London city is much larger than Athens city, in part since Athens is divided in many independent municipalities, while London is one city – The UK and Greece operationalize cities differently, hence summaries of numbers of inhabitants of cities across the UK and Greece makes no sense).
- the type of data is appropriate to the chosen operation (e.g. it is possible to calculate average and standard deviation of gender in a population, but the numbers Average gender=0.51 female, SD=0.50 make no sense – The average person is either male or female not 51% female).
- Interpretation of the data using statistical methods is "original research". For example, stating that the average height of a group of 200 people was 180 cm and the standard deviation was 8 cm is not original research, but to make the statement "therefore we can expect 136 people (68%) to have a height of between 172 cm and 188 cm (180 ± 8 cm" is original research (unless it is being used as an example in an article on how to manipulate statistical data).
In case of doubt (summaries vs. statistical reinterpretation), discuss first.
- TEXT4-COMMENT: Arnoutf (talk) 14:48, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- TEXT4-VOTE: ACCEPTED --Krauss (talk) 15:14, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose — For the following reasons:
- 1) Re "The generation of numerical summaries of data using routine techniques such as summation or the calculation of averages, standard deviations and other processes that are standard spreadsheet functions are not "original research". " — I think that unless the result is reasonably obvious to most readers, it should be considered OR. For example, the average of a few numbers would be reasonably obvious to most readers, but not the average of many numbers. I don't think that the standard deviation is reasonably obvious to most readers in any case; in other words, most readers seeing a calculated standard deviation in an article would not have an inkling about whether it is right or wrong. That's why reliable sources are useful so that the reader can see that someone credible has made the calculation, rather than an anonymous contributor to Wikipedia whose credibility is consequently unknown.
- 2) Re the part: "1. There are two things that must be kept in mind:" — This is an inappropriate digression for this policy page since it instructs (in a questionable way) how to analyze data, rather than how to avoid OR.
- 3) Re "For example, stating that the average height of a group of 200 people was 180 cm and the standard deviation was 8 cm is not original research" — I'd say that should be considered OR. From the Routine calculations section,
- "Basic arithmetic, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age, is allowed provided there is consensus among editors that the calculation is an obvious, correct, and meaningful reflection of the sources."
- I think what is meant here is that the result of the calculation is obvious. In the case of 200 people, the average and standard deviation isn't obvious. In the case of a few people, the average would be somewhat obvious but the standard deviation would not.
- --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:46, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree... Please check "TEXT5" below (or "TEXT1", "TEXT3" above), and say if you "Oppose"... I think not, so, we can use TEXT5. You can also edit or create your TEXT-N. --Krauss (talk) 12:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think the other proposals are worthwhile for the reasons I just gave, and/or because of the amount of space they would be using compared to their significance for this policy. You might consider putting your ideas in an essay. See Wikipedia:Wikipedia essays. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:41, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks, but "essay" seems a very hidden thing. Can you help me to coordenate this proposal? There are insufficient votes in the ballot... You and others can "clean/edit" it, I think not need more than two paragraphs. TEXT5 is bigger because with illustration is more simple to show the point and obtain consensus. --Krauss (talk) 03:20, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- Essays considered useful aren't hidden. Regarding helping you coordinate, I haven't seen anything worthwhile to add to this policy. --Bob K31416 (talk) 13:13, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks, but "essay" seems a very hidden thing. Can you help me to coordenate this proposal? There are insufficient votes in the ballot... You and others can "clean/edit" it, I think not need more than two paragraphs. TEXT5 is bigger because with illustration is more simple to show the point and obtain consensus. --Krauss (talk) 03:20, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think the other proposals are worthwhile for the reasons I just gave, and/or because of the amount of space they would be using compared to their significance for this policy. You might consider putting your ideas in an essay. See Wikipedia:Wikipedia essays. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:41, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree... Please check "TEXT5" below (or "TEXT1", "TEXT3" above), and say if you "Oppose"... I think not, so, we can use TEXT5. You can also edit or create your TEXT-N. --Krauss (talk) 12:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
(TEXT5 OF) Summaries of numerical data
The repeated use of "routine operations" (basic arithmetic), such as summation, "products of sequences", or the calculation of averages, are not original research, when used for well-knowed (and consensual) forms of "numerical synthesis", and can be interpreted by the article's reader as summaries of numerical data. Example:
quant. A quant. B Perc. of A Diff. 20 123 16,3% 40 234 17,1% 0,8% 55 300 18,3% 1,2% Total:
115Total:
657Average:
17,2%Average:
1,0%
(without background) Source data(this background) Calculed by wikipedist (this background) Summarized by wikipedist
The table above illustrates an encyclopedic issue produced with source data and NOTOR Simple calculations. It "translates and synthesizes" the source data, with accuracy and neutral point of view; preserving "the truth" of the source. A "new truth" can be produced by some statistical methods, such when interpreting an average as an expected value, so in case of doubt (summaries vs. statistical reinterpretation), discuss first.
(TEXT5 COMPRESSED)
- TEXT-COMMENT: here a "compressed version" of TEXT5, "because of the amount of space (...) would be using compared to their significance for this policy", as Bob_K31416 pointed. The new sugestion here is to add only a paragraph, not a new subsection, neither a table. --Krauss (talk) 15:44, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
Routine calculations do not count as original research. (...)
The recursive use of routine calculations, such as summation, products of sequences, or the calculation of averages, also do not count as original research, when interpreted by the article's reader as a summary of numerical data — i.e. when used for well-knowed (and consensual) forms of "numerical synthesis".
Example: totals and subtotals are complements of numeric table presentation. If the source show a list (without any summarization) "{1,2,3,1}
", Wikipedia article can express the same list with its summarization "{1,2,3,1} Total 7
", if the sum make sense to the article and to list units.
- Oppose — I've already addressed types of problems in this proposal in my previous comments,[1] and you said you agreed.[2] --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:41, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- I note that you implemented this proposal 15 minutes before you proposed it.[3] I just deleted it. --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:00, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- About my agree: I changed the text a lot, please check this compressed version, it reflects my agree. The main problem was about "statistics interpretation" and discussions about, I removed. I not see any point of opposition, please explain.
- PS: I am editing with two browsers-tabs, no matter of few minutes, plase put back for others appreciate few days. --Krauss (talk) 20:03, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- We don't seem to be communicating well enough to continue this discussion. This Talk page, not the policy page, is the place for displaying proposals. Please do not add any proposals to the policy page without consensus. --Bob K31416 (talk) 20:47, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- Ok, there was a question for you, "I not see any point of opposition, please explain". So, other question is How to vote objectively here?!? It is a very simple text here (!), everyone here discuss and come back to the same place, nobody is voting a final text. --Krauss (talk) 13:40, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
Working definition numerical tratment
Please, if you not agree about #Summarizations based on routine calculations, show here what you understand about (valid and not valid):
- Routine calculations
- ...(if you think not obvious or not consensus here) Your Definition HERE Please...
- Summaries of numerical data
- ...(if you think not obvious or not consensus here) Your Definition HERE Please...
[ User:Krauss posted the above on 8 July 2013]
- The question is whether or not an editor is trying to publish hitherto unpublished research, or whether the editor is genuinely summarising exiting information. I do not think it feasible to specifiy exactly what is and what is not WP:OR. I favour replacing the sentence
- "Routine calculations do not count as original research. Basic arithmetic, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age, is allowed provided there is consensus among editors that the calculation is an obvious, correct, and meaningful reflection of the sources."
- with
- "Routine calculations including but not limited to basic arithmetic, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age, do not count as original research, provided there is consensus among editors that the calculation is an obvious, correct, and meaningful reflection of the sources."
- This wording allows any type of summary, priovided that the editor concerned is not trying to publish hitherto unpublished research.
- Martinvl (talk) 13:42, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- What type of calculations are you trying to include along with basic arithmetic? For example, are you trying to include statistical analysis such as averages, standard deviations, etc. as you proposed in (Text2 OF) Numerical summaries? If so, please see my comments in the section (TEXT4 OF) Summaries of numerical data. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:17, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Would the following work for you?
- Routine calculations do not count as original research, provided there is consensus among editors that the result of the calculation is obvious, correct, and a meaningful reflection of the sources. Basic arithmetic, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age are some examples of routine calculations.
I incorporated an aspect of your version, "including but not limited to", by using the phrase "are some examples". I kept the number of sentences to two instead of one long sentence. I changed from "the calculation" to "the result of the calculation" to clarify. --Bob K31416 (talk) 20:31, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
And, how about adding this paragraph?
- The recursive use of routine calculations, such as summation, products of sequences, or the calculation of averages, also do not count as original research, when interpreted by the article's reader as a summary of numerical data — i.e. when used for well-knowed (and consensual) forms of "numerical synthesis".
It incorporates the basic aspects of "summarizations". --Krauss (talk) 17:23, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
- I've already discussed some of the problems with this in previous discussions with you. --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:16, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
- Krauss, may I ask what subjects or topics you are used to dealing with? Which calculations are okay depends a lot on the subject matter. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:51, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
- I've already discussed some of the problems with this in previous discussions with you. --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:16, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
Transferring consolidated discussion to an essay
In the context of "Numerical summarizations", as suggested by Bob_K31416 at TEXT4, I did my homework, starting an essay: Wikipedia:About Valid Routine Calculations. All here are invited to complete/correct/discuss/etc. the essay... And perhaps return here with a consensus. --Krauss (talk) 21:33, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
- I think this is already covered in the essay, wp:what SYNTH is not. - Sidelight12 Talk 06:00, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I added the item SYNTH is not numerical summarization, but not see at that page or other article, any "in-depth characterization" of the problem discussed and not resolved here...
PS: if you understand that the problem is solved, please explain why this change is made with no explicit consensus, and why the suggested change (addding "The recursive use of routine calculations, such ...") need a new essay and a lot of "more discussion". --Krauss (talk) 15:14, 22 July 2013 (UTC)- I prefer the previous version better. They are almost the same, but in the newer wording more emphasis is put on consensus allowing more variation in what constitutes what is allowed, rather than plainly stating routine calculations are allowed. I thought about commenting on that, but found it still to be ok. (I mistakenly thought this edit was made to the new essay)
- I gathered that basic calculations were allowed from the section SYNTH is not ubiquitous. Ok, the new essay does describe it better. The essay What Synth is not is a lifesaver for providing the grounds to allow basic calculations and the new essay among other things. - - Sidelight12 Talk 07:27, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I added the item SYNTH is not numerical summarization, but not see at that page or other article, any "in-depth characterization" of the problem discussed and not resolved here...
Propose change to footnote on book reviews
There is currently a footnote (#7) that includes this:
- Avoid using book reviews as reliable sources for the topics covered in the book; a book review is intended to be an independent review of the book, the author and related writing issues than be considered a secondary source for the topics covered within the book.
To start with, it isn't English (probably should be "rather than") and I will fix that regardless. However I'm raising it here because academic book reviews are frequently written by reviewers expert in their own right whose words can certainly be taken as reliable. It is perfectly normal for such reviews to contain information on the topic from the reviewer's point of view, not relying on or even necessarily agreeing with the book under review. So I propose this modification:
- Avoid using book reviews as reliable sources for the topics covered in the book; a book review is intended to be an independent review of the book, the author and related writing issues, rather than be considered a secondary source for the topics covered within the book. Exceptions to this can arise when the reviewer is an acknowledged expert on the topic.
Comments? Zerotalk 00:48, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
- I suspect you're motivated by some situation you encountered. If so, could you share that example?
- Regarding the rest of footnote 7, it seems like it should be moved to the article Book review and replaced with a wikilink to that article. --Bob K31416 (talk) 01:44, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
- If I was motivated by an example I would resist sharing it, since the discussion would be diverted to arguing the merits of the case, and hard cases make bad law. However there is no example in this case; I was just reading the policy and noticed this issue. In my field of editing (history) it is quite common for book reviewers to be more famous than the book authors, and I don't see why their words should be excluded. Zerotalk 09:43, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
- I tend to agree, in fact to the extent that I think the footnote should be deleted. I don't see why book reviews aren't evaluated as sources just like any other RS, without the policy advising editors to avoid them. See Wikipedia:Avoid instruction creep. --Bob K31416 (talk) 12:46, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
- I looked into the history of this footnote and it seems that the part about "Avoid using book reviews..." was put in with this edit[4] without mention in the edit summary and without discussion on the talk page. --Bob K31416 (talk) 13:16, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
- I think there is a valid point that is being made. Namely, when a review simply reports something from the book, like "The book says that X is true", it would be better that we cite the book for X (after looking at the book!) rather than citing the reviewer as citing the book. But why is this in a page about Original Research? It belongs somewhere else, perhaps in WP:RS. Zerotalk 14:56, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
- Our rule is to WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT, even if that means citing the second-hand source. I can imagine book reviews being abused, but the compelling point for me is "why is this in a page about Original Research?" Perhaps it could be offered up at WT:RS for possible inclusion there. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:47, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- I think there is a valid point that is being made. Namely, when a review simply reports something from the book, like "The book says that X is true", it would be better that we cite the book for X (after looking at the book!) rather than citing the reviewer as citing the book. But why is this in a page about Original Research? It belongs somewhere else, perhaps in WP:RS. Zerotalk 14:56, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
- If I was motivated by an example I would resist sharing it, since the discussion would be diverted to arguing the merits of the case, and hard cases make bad law. However there is no example in this case; I was just reading the policy and noticed this issue. In my field of editing (history) it is quite common for book reviewers to be more famous than the book authors, and I don't see why their words should be excluded. Zerotalk 09:43, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
OR as applied to figures
The subject of illustrations does not come up in WP:NOR. Shouldn't there be some guideline provided here?
It is obvious that figures are used in discussions in sources and throughout WP. A WP figure has to avoid copyright restrictions, and so cannot be a straight copy of a published figure in most cases. How far from a published figure can a WP figure stray without becoming OR?
I'd suggest the problem is even larger than this, as a figure often can help to illustrate text, and often a completely new image is necessary. It would seem a reasonable proposal governing OR in figures might be the following:
- Figures can be used in WP to illustrate text, and these figures may be completely original providing they clearly demonstrate properly sourced text, text that in itself clearly is not original research. In the event of some question about the felicity of the figure to the text, a Talk-page discussion of the comparisons between the figure and the text should be undertaken, and if necessary the relation of the figure to the text should be made clear in the text, or the figure modified to more clearly represent the text.
Any suggestions? Brews ohare (talk) 13:57, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
Apparently I missed this section of WP:OR that refers to original images. Perhaps some changes in wording are advisable? Brews ohare (talk) 14:21, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
- You don't mention synthesis Brews which is frequently a problem with figures used in sources, especially when you are attempting to combine a picture on a powerpoint slide set with one from a different author in an academic text book. There is also an OR element when you start to draw conclusions in the illustration that are not necessarily there in the original. ----Snowded TALK 14:05, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
- Snowded: I think it is the correct representation of properly sourced text that is the basic question. It is not a matter of whether an original figure happens to be a synthesis of already published figures, but whether the new figure is an accurate demonstration of the text. Brews ohare (talk) 14:21, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
- Then its very difficult to see how you avoid original research. You are interpreting the text into a diagram, something which is an inevitable simplification in the first place. ----Snowded TALK 14:25, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
- Snowded: A figure is a translation of words into images. Obviously there is artistic license involved, and there are many ways to do it. That freedom does not become OR so long as the figure does not distort the text it illustrates (provided that text is itself not OR). I fail to see why a figure must be a simplification, and even that is not objectionable if it is not an oversimplification. Brews ohare (talk) 14:53, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
- Then its very difficult to see how you avoid original research. You are interpreting the text into a diagram, something which is an inevitable simplification in the first place. ----Snowded TALK 14:25, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
- Snowded: I think it is the correct representation of properly sourced text that is the basic question. It is not a matter of whether an original figure happens to be a synthesis of already published figures, but whether the new figure is an accurate demonstration of the text. Brews ohare (talk) 14:21, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
When we use the word "figures"... Are we talking about presenting data (things like graphs, table and charts)? Or are we talking about images (user created drawings, schematics, maps, etc.)? Presenting data in pictorial form is very tricky to do correctly... it can be done, but the likelihood of introducing OR (either intentionally or inadvertently) is very high. If we say anything about it, we should include a strong caution. Blueboar (talk) 15:16, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
- Agree, in the case Brews is thinking of he started by trying to integrate two pictures and is now arguing that he can summarise several sources into a picture. The danger of OR and synthesis is just too high ----Snowded TALK 15:19, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
- The particular figure leading to this discussion is found here. It is a flow chart showing the relation between three technical terms used in the text of a WP article. It is not about 'data'. Snowded is confused by the factors involved in the genesis of the new diagram, leading him to ignore the purpose of the figure in the WP article, namely, to explain terminology. Brews ohare (talk) 16:36, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
The beginning portion of WP:OR referring to images reads as follows:
- "Because of copyright laws in a number of countries, there are relatively few images available for use on Wikipedia. Editors are therefore encouraged to upload their own images, releasing them under the GFDL, CC-BY-SA, or other free licenses. Original images created by a Wikipedian are not considered original research, so long as they do not illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments, the core reason behind the NOR policy."
My understanding of this wording is that the exemption of a figure from OR is granted provided the figure truly depicts the content of the WP text it illustrates, and that text has been deemed to be not OR. Creative spark can be found in many places, and artistic license is fine, as long as fidelity to the text is maintained.
It would seem some additional language is needed to get the italicized portion of the policy across. For example, editor Snowded is found to apply a different criterion, namely acceptance based upon the genesis of a figure, rather than its ability to illustrate the text. Snowded says the way a figure was formed: "by trying to integrate two pictures" the attempt is being made to "summarize several sources into a picture. The danger of OR and synthesis is just too high..."
This focus upon how a figure happens to be arrived upon has nothing to do with whether its final form fits the WP text it attempts to illustrate. Assessment of the figure is based upon its congruence with the text, not upon how it came to be.
Some rewording could emphasize that there is no supposition that a figure in WP must have some connection to a published figure. The only criterion is that it represent faithfully the content of WP text known to be not OR itself. Brews ohare (talk) 23:52, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
- From the section Original images of this policy,
- "Original images created by a Wikipedian are not considered original research, so long as they do not illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments, the core reason behind the NOR policy."
- What are the unpublished ideas or arguments that are illustrated or introduced by the image in question? --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:27, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- From a very brief look, Snowded's primary concerns is that it combines elements from two unrelated sources.
- Snowded, if you'd like an example of translating words into a figure without introducing even a small risk of OR, look at File:Autorecessive.svg. It is even possible to combine several sources to produce one figure. For example, consider a pie chart that shows the size of one US state (given in source A) as a proportion of the size of the entire US (given in source B).
- But in this particular instance, I think that the question should be handled at the talk page's RFC or, failing that, at NORN. I don't think we benefit from changing our policy over this. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:59, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- Re "From a very brief look, Snowded's primary concerns is that it combines elements from two unrelated sources." — This case might bring up a point re Synth vs allowed combining that might need clarification: combining elements from two unrelated sources is Synth only if there is a new conclusion that doesn't explicitly appear in any of the sources. If this were clearer, perhaps Snowded wouldn't be concerned, if this is the cause of his concern. --Bob K31416 (talk) 02:55, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- Bob: I think you have exactly the point that needs more attention. Brews ohare (talk) 05:43, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- Re "From a very brief look, Snowded's primary concerns is that it combines elements from two unrelated sources." — This case might bring up a point re Synth vs allowed combining that might need clarification: combining elements from two unrelated sources is Synth only if there is a new conclusion that doesn't explicitly appear in any of the sources. If this were clearer, perhaps Snowded wouldn't be concerned, if this is the cause of his concern. --Bob K31416 (talk) 02:55, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- File:Autorecessive.svg is a good example of something which can be verified with little ambiguity against the text. In the case concerned it is difficult to do so as the use of language etc. differs in the material and to my mind its synthesis to combine them. That said Brews originally argued a combination of two documents, but then shifted to saying it summarised the text so the ground is shifting. It does however belong as a conversation on the talk page of the article concerned. This is the second time now that Brews has abstracted a content dispute on one page into a request for a change of policy. ----Snowded TALK 06:28, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- It would be helpful if you could specify the new conclusion that is illustrated by the image. --Bob K31416 (talk) 13:22, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- I already did that Bob, on the talk page of the article here ----Snowded TALK 13:54, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- Snowded: Your linked criticism of a WP figure is based upon its difference from two published figures within two published sources concerned with their own agendas. Those published figures inspired the form of the WP figure, but their role in their particular sources does not concern the evaluation of the WP figure, which should be based upon its own context within the WP article. In short, does it reflect the WP text it illustrates?
- As said by [WP:OR in its discussion of original figures, "Original images created by a Wikipedian are not considered original research, so long as they do not illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments.
- Snowded, your proposed process labeling a WP figure as 'synthesis' and OR is not according to present policy. Snowded, your incorrect understanding of this policy simply emphasizes the need for WP:OR to specifically state beyond all doubt and misinterpretation, that a WP figure is to be judged upon its accuracy in conveying the WP text it is meant to illustrate. Brews ohare (talk) 14:19, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- As I said Brews you are shifting your ground. You started referencing those two pictures, then you shifted to a summary of the sources. My criticism applies to both. You consistently don't get synthesis (and seem not have learnt over 4 RfCs), the fact that you can find some of the same or familiar words does not entitle you just to sweep them all up into a picture of your own creation. Of course it can only be my failure to understand policy that leads me to disagree with you, or maybe I didn't read the text this time? Never sure what sin editors who disagree with you have committed so its difficult to keep track. ----Snowded TALK 14:28, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- I already did that Bob, on the talk page of the article here ----Snowded TALK 13:54, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- It would be helpful if you could specify the new conclusion that is illustrated by the image. --Bob K31416 (talk) 13:22, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- File:Autorecessive.svg is a good example of something which can be verified with little ambiguity against the text. In the case concerned it is difficult to do so as the use of language etc. differs in the material and to my mind its synthesis to combine them. That said Brews originally argued a combination of two documents, but then shifted to saying it summarised the text so the ground is shifting. It does however belong as a conversation on the talk page of the article concerned. This is the second time now that Brews has abstracted a content dispute on one page into a request for a change of policy. ----Snowded TALK 06:28, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
The ground is simply this: even if nothing like a particular WP figure exists anywhere else at all, it is acceptable on WP so long as it faithfully depicts text that is not OR. Snowded, your attempt to confuse this discussion with extraneous other matters is irrelevant. Brews ohare (talk) 14:40, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
This comment by Snowded indicates a complete failure to understand Wikipedia:No_original_research#Original_images so far as I interpret this policy as I have outlined above. Either Snowded is out to lunch or I am. In either case, the policy needs to be clarified. Brews ohare (talk) 15:09, 6 August 2013 (UTC).
- Brews, can you point to a single Dif where you have ever accepted that you were wrong on a subject? Or even that another editor might have a point? So far it seems that other editors don't read the material, don't understand the material, don't understand policy, reference extraneous material (your extensive and unrepentant history of blocks and topic bans), are confusing the subject etc. etc. You have opened up an RfC, let it run for Gods sake. ----Snowded TALK 15:26, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- Again, this is a content dispute involving a single article. I have no particular opinion on the merits of the image, but Snowded's position is neither unreasonable nor unusual. You need to take this dispute back to an appropriate forum. There is no good reason to change our policy here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:46, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- WhatamIdoing: The issue is general, although Snowded wishes to embroil it in specifics regarding this RfC. I have formulated the general issue in the following thread. Brews ohare (talk) 15:54, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- Regarding Snowded's response to my last message, it looks like the link he gave attempts to show that there is a new conclusion in the image. I couldn't tell from a quick look at it whether that is correct or not, but it seems like a sufficiently reasonable objection to discuss. I also looked at the discussion following the link's message of 14:02, 5 August 2013, in the section Removal of figure.
- WhatamIdoing: The issue is general, although Snowded wishes to embroil it in specifics regarding this RfC. I have formulated the general issue in the following thread. Brews ohare (talk) 15:54, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- Again, this is a content dispute involving a single article. I have no particular opinion on the merits of the image, but Snowded's position is neither unreasonable nor unusual. You need to take this dispute back to an appropriate forum. There is no good reason to change our policy here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:46, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- In any case, it appears that Snowded understands the basic idea of the policy regarding an image violating NOR if it illustrates a new conclusion. To settle this article-specific issue, which may not be easy, would seem to require someone who is interested in getting into the details of the specific subject, and interested editors might be invited to participate on the article's talk page, e.g. with an RfC.
- A discussion between only the two editors doesn't seem to be making progress towards agreement, and seems pointless. It may be that there are no other editors who wish to get involved. For situations like this in the future, the two editors might try to reach some general understanding about what to do when they disagree on an issue and no other editors are interested in getting involved. --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:35, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- Sound advice, but if you look at Brews response to two other editors below, then you can see that they "are wrong" :-) Brews has got to learn to work with other editors and accept that from time and time he may not gain agreement and has to move on. If not then I think we are going to end up with yet another RfC on Brews ----Snowded TALK 19:01, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- Hi Bob: How Snowded thinks is a bit of a mystery as he will never say specifically what is wrong with that particular figure, but it doesn't affect the need for a clearer statement of general policy insofar as the comments by WhatAmIDoing indicate some confusion over what policy is, and Snowded has explicitly contradicted policy by saying figures are subject to sourcing requirements just like text, not just a requirement for accurate illustration of accepted text. Brews ohare (talk) 19:24, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- Do you ever both to read what people say Brews? I said illustrations were subject to the same evidence rules as anything else. ----Snowded TALK 19:32, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- Snowded: That is exactly what I said you said, and it is not correct. WP images can be completely original and do not need to be sourced if they portray accepted text accurately. Brews ohare (talk) 21:39, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- The rules of wikipedia Brews do not say that everything has to be quoted (although you seem to take that view on many articles), but they do say synthesis and original research are not allowed. If you spend a little time and check out my response on the File:Autorecessive.svg example above its pretty clear. So yes you can create a picture, but the material in that must not be original research or synthesis. I have explained this on the talk page. Just having the same words in different sources is not enough, you have to show that the way your diagram puts those words together is not adding something no present in the original. As I explained here that is what I think you have done. This should really all be moved to the talk page of the article you currently are in a minority of one (again) in wanting a policy change ----Snowded TALK 21:47, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- Snowded: Of course figures cannot make points that are synthesis or original research. However, the point that you cannot accept is that if the figure faithfully illustrates material in a text that does not exhibit these traits, then the figure is deemed not to exhibit these traits either. Therefore, a discussion of whether a figure has acceptable content first is directed at the text it illustrates, not at the figure, and with that discussion of the text out of the way, the criticism leveled at the figure itself is whether it accurately portrays the text. Brews ohare (talk) 01:40, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
- The rules of wikipedia Brews do not say that everything has to be quoted (although you seem to take that view on many articles), but they do say synthesis and original research are not allowed. If you spend a little time and check out my response on the File:Autorecessive.svg example above its pretty clear. So yes you can create a picture, but the material in that must not be original research or synthesis. I have explained this on the talk page. Just having the same words in different sources is not enough, you have to show that the way your diagram puts those words together is not adding something no present in the original. As I explained here that is what I think you have done. This should really all be moved to the talk page of the article you currently are in a minority of one (again) in wanting a policy change ----Snowded TALK 21:47, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- Snowded: That is exactly what I said you said, and it is not correct. WP images can be completely original and do not need to be sourced if they portray accepted text accurately. Brews ohare (talk) 21:39, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- Do you ever both to read what people say Brews? I said illustrations were subject to the same evidence rules as anything else. ----Snowded TALK 19:32, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- Hi Bob: How Snowded thinks is a bit of a mystery as he will never say specifically what is wrong with that particular figure, but it doesn't affect the need for a clearer statement of general policy insofar as the comments by WhatAmIDoing indicate some confusion over what policy is, and Snowded has explicitly contradicted policy by saying figures are subject to sourcing requirements just like text, not just a requirement for accurate illustration of accepted text. Brews ohare (talk) 19:24, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- Sound advice, but if you look at Brews response to two other editors below, then you can see that they "are wrong" :-) Brews has got to learn to work with other editors and accept that from time and time he may not gain agreement and has to move on. If not then I think we are going to end up with yet another RfC on Brews ----Snowded TALK 19:01, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
Brews I worry about you from time to time. If the figure does not exhibit OR or Synthesis then it is eligible, it might still be ruled out on grounds of taste, usefulness or whatever. Please deal with the objections people raise, rather your attempts to restate them, which in my experience, have always been perversions of the original ----Snowded TALK 03:03, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
- Snowded: The objections you have raised historically against figures are the policies concerning OR and SYN. However, it is text that is subject to these policy considerations. Figures illustrating such text are not subject to these policies. Instead these figures are subject to fidelity to the texts they illuminate. Naturally, if the figure is faithful to the text and the text is free from OR and SYN, then the figure is acceptable. Do you agree? Brews ohare (talk) 05:23, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
- But it isn't Brews and the figure is subject to those policies like everything else. I'm giving up trying to explain this to you. It belongs on the talk page of the article anyway ----Snowded TALK 05:50, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
- Snowded: In my experience you have not tried to explain anything. For example, in the present case, an explanation could take the form of suggesting why the proposed criterion of faithfulness of a figure to the text it explains wouldn't work, or suggesting why some additional requirements might be necessary, or outlining how OR and SYN are to be applied to a figure when a figure is entirely original work as allowed by Wikipedia:No_original_research#Original_images. Instead, we have simply the bald reassertion that OR and SYN are required of figures just like "anything else". In short, no thought. Brews ohare (talk) 13:31, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
- WP:AGF Brews, not to mention WP:NPA. Specific reasons were given here you just don't agree. You really should not define 'thought' as 'mental processes that result in the belief that Brews is right' it can (and has) taken you to some bad places over the years. ----Snowded TALK 13:37, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
- Goodbye. Brews ohare (talk) 14:07, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
- WP:AGF Brews, not to mention WP:NPA. Specific reasons were given here you just don't agree. You really should not define 'thought' as 'mental processes that result in the belief that Brews is right' it can (and has) taken you to some bad places over the years. ----Snowded TALK 13:37, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
- Snowded: In my experience you have not tried to explain anything. For example, in the present case, an explanation could take the form of suggesting why the proposed criterion of faithfulness of a figure to the text it explains wouldn't work, or suggesting why some additional requirements might be necessary, or outlining how OR and SYN are to be applied to a figure when a figure is entirely original work as allowed by Wikipedia:No_original_research#Original_images. Instead, we have simply the bald reassertion that OR and SYN are required of figures just like "anything else". In short, no thought. Brews ohare (talk) 13:31, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
- But it isn't Brews and the figure is subject to those policies like everything else. I'm giving up trying to explain this to you. It belongs on the talk page of the article anyway ----Snowded TALK 05:50, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
Proposed modification of WP:OR regarding figures
Should this addition be made to Wikipedia:No_original_research#Original_images?
- "In the case of figures intended to illustrate text, even if nothing like a proposed WP figure exists anywhere else at all, it is acceptable on WP if it faithfully depicts text that is not OR. Whether a figure of this type constitutes original research is contingent only upon its accuracy in representing the accepted text it illustrates."
I understand the present policy to be consistent with this proposal. This addition would rule out explicitly a view such as "A diagram is not exempt from normal sourcing rules". Brews ohare (talk) 15:22, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
Comments
- I believe there are a great many figures on WP that are completely original illustrations of accompanying text, and some of which are unrelated to any published figure. Nonetheless, there are misconceptions regarding WP policy in such matters, so an amendment is needed. The issue is not gray, but black and white - either a diagram on WP must approximate one in print (inviting copyright restrictions), or that is not necessary, and felicity to text is a sufficient criterion. Present policy says the latter, and suggesting policy is consistent with personal judgment about this requires a rewrite of policy. Brews ohare (talk) 15:37, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this change. Editors should use their best judgment in every case, which may include a very strict interpretation of verifiability in contentious articles. There are misconceptions in both directions here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:52, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- As noted above this is a content dispute. You should not be trying to rewrite policy to help you win a content dispute; you've tried this many times before so should know this by now. Resolve the issue on the talk page, recruiting other editors perhaps on a project talk page if there are only two involved.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 16:03, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- Blackburne: You are wrong - you mistake a general issue with the instance leading to it. Brews ohare (talk) 16:08, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- If this really has nothing to do with the dispute, then feel free to come back here a couple of months after that dispute has been resolved. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:23, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- Why on Earth should a general issue have to wait for a minor dispute between two editors to end? Your reason presumably is because you cannot see that this is a general issue, even when it is stated in general terms that depend in no way upon this other matter. Brews ohare (talk) 21:42, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- Because it is very difficult for editors to completely separate a proposed change from a particular instance, and it is impossible to avoid some people believing that it is an attempt at WP:GAMING. Additionally, the resolution of the particular, concrete dispute can provide some insight into how the community sees the matter in practice. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:16, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
- Why on Earth should a general issue have to wait for a minor dispute between two editors to end? Your reason presumably is because you cannot see that this is a general issue, even when it is stated in general terms that depend in no way upon this other matter. Brews ohare (talk) 21:42, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- If this really has nothing to do with the dispute, then feel free to come back here a couple of months after that dispute has been resolved. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:23, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- Blackburne: You are wrong - you mistake a general issue with the instance leading to it. Brews ohare (talk) 16:08, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose. This issue can be dealt with on a case by case basis according to appropriate policy and guidelines that already exists. --- Steve Quinn (talk) 21:05, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- Steve: The appropriate policy is WP:OR#Original images. It encourages Editors to upload their own original figures. Now, this policy may be clear to some, but to others, any original figure is OR or SYN. Why do you not favor ending any perceived ambiguity by making policy explicit that an original figure illustrating some WP text is required to be an accurate depiction of the text, and the policy of original research applies to the text not to the figure illustrating it? Brews ohare (talk) 14:20, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
No wayI just posted at RSN where "is a map a reliable source?" was asked. The answer is no. For everyday "the sky is blue" questions, a map or diagram are fine as sources. For anything remotely contentious, a secondary source is required to interpret the document. Johnuniq (talk) 02:17, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
- Johnuniq: I wonder how this process you envision takes place. Here is a possible way to do this that you might comment upon:, An explanation is made in text, in words, with sources, and this text is critiqued to be sure it doesn't exhibit OR or synthesis. Then a figure illuminating this text is created, and this figure is then criticized as to whether it accurately portrays the text. Thus OR and SYN apply to the text, but fidelity to the text applies to the figure. I am sure this process works; do you have an alternative that might work too? Brews ohare (talk) 03:00, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oh, sorry, but coming here straight after the RSN section I linked above, my mind was directed towards a different issue from what you have raised. Sometimes an editor will say that a diagram they found somewhere verifies fact X (the diagram is given as a reference for X). I now see that the issue under discussion concerns when an editor-created diagram is original research. That's much more tricky. In general, everyday matters which do not raise objections are not original research and are good ("the sky is blue", or the diagrams at parabola). I do not think there is anything useful that can be said as a generalization regarding when a diagram is a faithful depiction of verifiable facts—it's yet another issue which would need to be discussed, if objections are raised. I have not looked at the background that you linked above, but I have struck my "no way" as that was a misunderstanding, and I might just sit on the fence, although from what I've just said I don't think any general text would really be helpful. Johnuniq (talk) 06:28, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
- Johnuniq: Thanks for a thought-out response. I feel that the application of OR and SYN to text is documented. On the other hand applying these policies to an original figure as allowed by WP:OR#Original images is nigh impossible, and is just a quagmire for unending dispute. You have said the same. My view is that for that subset of figures used to illustrate text, an approach based upon the figure's accuracy in depicting the text is a more straightforward way to proceed. Brews ohare (talk) 13:19, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oh, sorry, but coming here straight after the RSN section I linked above, my mind was directed towards a different issue from what you have raised. Sometimes an editor will say that a diagram they found somewhere verifies fact X (the diagram is given as a reference for X). I now see that the issue under discussion concerns when an editor-created diagram is original research. That's much more tricky. In general, everyday matters which do not raise objections are not original research and are good ("the sky is blue", or the diagrams at parabola). I do not think there is anything useful that can be said as a generalization regarding when a diagram is a faithful depiction of verifiable facts—it's yet another issue which would need to be discussed, if objections are raised. I have not looked at the background that you linked above, but I have struck my "no way" as that was a misunderstanding, and I might just sit on the fence, although from what I've just said I don't think any general text would really be helpful. Johnuniq (talk) 06:28, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
- Johnuniq: I wonder how this process you envision takes place. Here is a possible way to do this that you might comment upon:, An explanation is made in text, in words, with sources, and this text is critiqued to be sure it doesn't exhibit OR or synthesis. Then a figure illuminating this text is created, and this figure is then criticized as to whether it accurately portrays the text. Thus OR and SYN apply to the text, but fidelity to the text applies to the figure. I am sure this process works; do you have an alternative that might work too? Brews ohare (talk) 03:00, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose. I think insertion of the proposed text will be read to imply that original images that are not based on text, but which can be verified by reference to reliable sources in some non-text media, would be disallowed. For example, there may not be any pictures of a living person who is the subject of a biography that have copyright licenses compatible with Wikipedia, but there are many such photos in reliable sources that can be viewed for verification. A Commons editor takes a photo of the article subject and puts it in the article. That is entirely compatible with existing policy, but the proposal would imply that it is not acceptable. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:11, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
- Jc3s5h: Thanks for the observation. You point out that a figure sometimes can be authenticated by comparison with published figures, for example an original photograph claiming to be that of a pigeon can be compared with published photos to ascertain that it is indeed a picture of a pigeon. The proposal doesn't intend to eliminate this kind of verification. But in cases where there is a completely original figure involved, and a similar figure is not available in print, an approach to verification is to compare the figure with the text it describes. This proposal is an alternative, not an exclusive, means for critiquing figures, and sometimes the only way to do it. Perhaps you could suggest some rephrasing of the proposal to make this point obvious? Brews ohare (talk) 15:32, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
Proposal for new policy
(This proposal was originally posted at Wikipedia talk:Policies and guidelines#Limitations of RS+NOR, with a solution, but I was asked to post it here and at WT:RS.)
Limitations of RS+NOR, with a solution:
The motivation for this discussion is my frequent annoyance over the years with articles that don't explain things well, or don't give enough information, because experts can't simply write what they know, due to NOR and the need for RS.
An example is Sailing faster than the wind, where section "BOLD EDIT NOTICE" of its Talk page presents an excellent explanation (the analogy of a geared transmission) that couldn't be included in the article due to NOR and lack of RS. Note that I don't care if this explanation is correct or not: that is immaterial to the problem I wish to discuss here. I'm giving this as a motivational example, but I am discussing WP policies and guidelines here, not details of the example.
Now to get to it: reliance on the availability of good RSs leads to a good encyclopedia, but this technique has limitations. Once in a while a Talk page provides some NOR explanation that is clearer that the one given in the article. This example, I believe, is such a case. While this isn't the purpose of a Talk page, it is a very valuable service for WP readers who read the Talk pages as well the articles, as I do.
It also shows an inherent limitation of the RS+NOR policies, as applied to articles. An improved WP policy, and the solution I'm offering for discussion here, would be to allow NOR explanations or knowledge in articles and Talk pages, without a reference, until someone provides a good NOR reason to object to them, or an RS is found that supports a good replacement.
This would be an additional policy, modifying the RS and NOR policies, or would be a modification of the RS and NOR policies themselves (I'm not proposing which). David Spector (talk) 18:52, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
- I support the above comments and proposal.--Gautier lebon (talk) 13:40, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
- Question. What is the threshold for a "good" reason for objecting? As things stand, material which is in contention is kept out of an article until doubts are resolved. I'd be concerned that this proposal would result in bad, unsourced content remaining in articles while discussion about whether it should be removed goes round and round in circles without consensus. Formerip (talk) 13:46, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose the Talk page amendment due to the inevitable unintended consequence of the WP:NOTAFORUM problems it would allow. Besides, the practical current application of WP:NOR to Talk pages already allows questions based on speculation like you're describing. The second part of this, allowing WP:OR in articles until someone objects, is basically how it works now. Questionable unsourced material stays in articles until it's challenged, and then it has to come out. There is no need to change the policy.
Zad68
13:48, 14 August 2013 (UTC) - Re David Spector's comment "an excellent explanation ... that couldn't be included in the article due to NOR and lack of RS. Note that I don't care if this explanation is correct or not: that is immaterial to the problem I wish to discuss here." — If there's uncertainty about whether it is correct, then it seems like a poor example to support what you want for WP:NOR. Note that the purpose of an explanation is to make something more clear and that introducing uncertainty works against that goal. The purpose of NOR is to keep out material that may be misinformation. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:34, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose - requiring that everything published here be able to be WP:CITEd and WP:VERIFYed without debuting any type of novel research in any form has been at the core of several of the project's permanent cornerstones from the beginning. Not a chance anyone could change it like this. On the other hand, I hear that there is a Wikimedia project at V: where original research is allowed and encouraged. You may like that. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 15:45, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Leading section
I think that it is more clear if in the leading section the two words must exist are in Italic, in stead of only the word must right now. Sander.v.Ginkel (talk) 07:45, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
- It would be even clearer if we said must have been published and still be accessible to at least some members of the public. I've forgotten the details, but at some point we actually had a problem with someone claiming that his source "existed" (original copies of handwritten letters by his grandmother or something) and was therefore useable, even though it had never been published anywhere. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:19, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
Revised proposal regarding OR and figures
An earlier proposal met with difficulties, so a revised version is presented below intended to meet those problems by carefully restricting the type of figure to which it applies.
Should this addition be made to Wikipedia:No_original_research#Original_images?
- "In the very specific case of a figure in the form of a flowchart or graph illustrating a specific text in an article, such a figure is acceptable on WP provided it faithfully depicts the associated text, and that text itself meets WP policy on OR. Whether a figure of this type constitutes original research is contingent only upon its accuracy in representing the accepted text it illustrates. Of course, meeting OR is not the only possible criterion to apply in accepting a figure." Brews ohare (talk) 15:31, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
As things stand at the moment, objections have been raised that figures that are a combination of published figures, or are variations of published figures are declared to be original research simply because of original elements or organization, even though these diagrams faithfully depict text established to be acceptable. Argument over these matters is directed by mistake at the originality of the figures themselves instead of their accuracy in depicting the text they illustrate. Brews ohare (talk) 22:44, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Comments
- There are a great many figures on WP that are completely original illustrations of accompanying text, and some of which are unrelated to any published figure. Nonetheless, there are misconceptions regarding WP policy in such matters, so an amendment is needed. The amendment makes clear that the OR issue is not gray, but black and white - either a diagram on WP must approximate one in print (inviting copyright restrictions), or that is not necessary, and felicity to text is a sufficient criterion. Present policy is sometimes interpreted as saying OR policy on such figures is open to personal judgment, but that is is too vague. Policy is governed by felicity to text, and not upon extraneous considerations. Brews ohare (talk) 15:31, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose. Will be interpreted to require removal of perfectly acceptable, uncontentious figures. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:06, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose. The present policy is clear and fine. Whether any particular image matches the policy can be decided on a case by case basis, and disputes can be resolved the usual way. Frankly it comes up very rarely: images are far more likely to be removed for relevance or copyright/fair use reasons, or as better ones are found.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 17:45, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Meta comments
Brews, have any of your proposals for NOR ever been accepted? It seems like there's a new one every time I turn around. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:21, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
- He only comes here when he has a content dispute elsewhere :-) You could also ask him if anyone has ever responded to his multiple RfCs etc. etc. ----Snowded TALK 05:30, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
- Would you two care to take a little time off your food fight to comment regarding improving policy in this area? Brews ohare (talk) 14:46, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is nothing wrong with the policy. What is wrong is trying to change policy to win a content dispute. To do this repeatedly, despite being already warned about it, is disruptive.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 16:55, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
- Blackburne: Unwarranted unsubstantiated pure bull. The discussion stands on its own as a clarification of policy, and your spite and bile have no place here. Brews ohare (talk) 02:05, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- There is nothing wrong with the policy. What is wrong is trying to change policy to win a content dispute. To do this repeatedly, despite being already warned about it, is disruptive.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 16:55, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
- Would you two care to take a little time off your food fight to comment regarding improving policy in this area? Brews ohare (talk) 14:46, 16 August 2013 (UTC)