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:::::::::But I'm not going to pretend that this will change anything. The GS and the current pointless MOSNUM muddle will ensure that UK articles remain a confusing jumble of different styles. And yes, since you opposed getting rid of the trivial and silly milk rule, you ''de facto'' supported retaining it. [[User:Archon 2488|Archon 2488]] ([[User talk:Archon 2488|talk]]) 10:24, 18 October 2016 (UTC) |
:::::::::But I'm not going to pretend that this will change anything. The GS and the current pointless MOSNUM muddle will ensure that UK articles remain a confusing jumble of different styles. And yes, since you opposed getting rid of the trivial and silly milk rule, you ''de facto'' supported retaining it. [[User:Archon 2488|Archon 2488]] ([[User talk:Archon 2488|talk]]) 10:24, 18 October 2016 (UTC) |
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::::::::::The fact that you support metrication is not good reason for Wikipedia to apply metrication faster than does the public at large. Wikipedia is an encyclopædia, not a campaigning organisation, and that applies even if you happen to believe in the cause you wish Wikipedia to campaign for. |
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::::::::::When we discuss it, your argument always boils down to this. [[WP:ILIKEIT|You like the metric system]]. I like the metric system as well. I think Brits should use it more. But we don't. We have to respect that fact, whether we like it or not. Most people in Britain giving a distance will do it in miles over kilometres. Most people in Britain will give a personal weight in stones and not kilos. You say "[t]his archaic cant [imperial units] gets more unjustifiable with every passing year", but if you listen to the political mood music, the direction discussed is for moving the other way, from metric to imperial, not the other way around. You dismiss people who prefer imperial as those who "have fond memories of Queen Victoria and pink world maps" - which was precisely the sort of language used to dismiss the Brexiteers. They just won a referendum. I would suggest that there are probably quite a lot more people with the sort of attitudes that you so obviously disdain than you think. We have to be an encyclopædia for those people as well as those of us who take the other view. |
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::::::::::What we have in the Times - the UK's newspaper of record - is a style guide that attempts to do what we intend to do. It attempts to reflect real British usage in a few simple and easy-to-follow rules. And y'know what? When we actually take it to other UK-specific fora and ask British posters, the current rules tend to get supported. Several times we've had editors trying to push us in one direction or other, who have come unstuck when they appealed to a silent majority for their position that didn't exist. That's generally a good sign that we're doing it right. |
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::::::::::As to the rest, I find you serially misrepresent my position, and I find you double down on your personal attacks. Perhaps this is why these discussions go nowhere. ''[[User:Kahastok|Kahastok]]'' <small>''[[User Talk:Kahastok|talk]]''</small> 18:22, 18 October 2016 (UTC) |
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*Don't forget about [[WP:GS/UKU]]. The sudden 'growth' of a such a cancer as this discussion has me taken aback. [[User:RGloucester|<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt;color:#000000">RGloucester </span>]] — [[User talk:RGloucester|☎]] 14:50, 16 October 2016 (UTC) |
*Don't forget about [[WP:GS/UKU]]. The sudden 'growth' of a such a cancer as this discussion has me taken aback. [[User:RGloucester|<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt;color:#000000">RGloucester </span>]] — [[User talk:RGloucester|☎]] 14:50, 16 October 2016 (UTC) |
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:'''Oppose''' this is your usual attempt at metricate everything regardless the existing wording should stand. [[User:Keith D|Keith D]] ([[User talk:Keith D|talk]]) 00:07, 18 October 2016 (UTC) |
:'''Oppose''' this is your usual attempt at metricate everything regardless the existing wording should stand. [[User:Keith D|Keith D]] ([[User talk:Keith D|talk]]) 00:07, 18 October 2016 (UTC) |
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:::[Keith, in my proposal, the existing wording does stand. The proposal doesn't attempt to metricate everything, nor does it attempt to metricate anything that isn't metric already.] [[User:Michael Glass|Michael Glass]] ([[User talk:Michael Glass|talk]]) 12:55, 18 October 2016 (UTC) |
:::[Keith, in my proposal, the existing wording does stand. The proposal doesn't attempt to metricate everything, nor does it attempt to metricate anything that isn't metric already.] [[User:Michael Glass|Michael Glass]] ([[User talk:Michael Glass|talk]]) 12:55, 18 October 2016 (UTC) |
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:'''Oppose''' per Keith D and per my comments above. For all the objections to what Keith D says, it is obvious from Michael's comments - both under this heading and the previous - that Keith D's interpretation is entirely accurate. ''[[User:Kahastok|Kahastok]]'' <small>''[[User Talk:Kahastok|talk]]''</small> 18:22, 18 October 2016 (UTC) |
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It has been 2786 days since the outbreak
of the latest dispute over date formats.
Wrong/contradictory examples for time durations in "Mixed units"
The table in MOS:NUM#Unit names and symbols gives "1 hr 30 min 7 sec" as a correct example and "1 h 30 min 7 s" as an incorrect one, whereas the next section, MOS:NUM#Specific units, clearly says that the correct symbols for hour, minute and second are "h", "min" and "s" respectively (it also does not mention "hr" and "sec" as correct, which probably implies that they are at least not recommended, but in fact are incorrect according to SI rules). That is, "1 h 30 min 7 s" is actually perfectly correct, and "1 hr 30 min 7 sec" is not SI-compliant and contradicts the rest of MOS:NUM ("hr" and "sec" are not mentioned anywhere else). — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 07:31, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- Some points:
- Note that the Specific Units table explicitly endorses both min and m for minutes.
- Wikipedia quite consciously is not always SI-compliant. As I recall (for example), SI doesn't recognize day as a unit of time, and we're certainly not going to tell editors they can't use that!
- Clearly there's a discussion needed here, so let the games begin! EEng 07:44, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- I guess what the table is trying to say is that a mixed time should be internally consistent; choose the long abbreviations hr-min-sec or the short ones h-m-s but don't mix them. Kendall-K1 (talk) 14:21, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- I suppose Kendal-K1 is right about the intent of the table, but according to the SI brochure, hour and minute, while not SI units, are accepted for use with SI. The correct symbols, according to the brochure, are h and min. Using m as a symbol for minute is not especially desirable, because it could be confused with meter. So "min" is a suitable symbol to use together with "h" and "s". Jc3s5h (talk) 19:59, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, in theory it could be confused with the metre - but in context? I doubt it. We do say already (in a different part of the text), "Use m for "minute" only where there is no danger of confusion with meter".
- I suppose Kendal-K1 is right about the intent of the table, but according to the SI brochure, hour and minute, while not SI units, are accepted for use with SI. The correct symbols, according to the brochure, are h and min. Using m as a symbol for minute is not especially desirable, because it could be confused with meter. So "min" is a suitable symbol to use together with "h" and "s". Jc3s5h (talk) 19:59, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- I guess what the table is trying to say is that a mixed time should be internally consistent; choose the long abbreviations hr-min-sec or the short ones h-m-s but don't mix them. Kendall-K1 (talk) 14:21, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- I just did a Google search for "hr", "min" and "sec" in Wikipedia, and this unit style seems to be used mostly for sports articles and early aviation records.
- I don't think it's common to use a unit symbol for hour in English at all. Time of day and duration in mixed units are usually expressed just with a colon (or, if seconds are included, a colon between hours and minutes, and a second colon between minutes and seconds). For example, the various English language formats for time of day or duration in Excel all use colons. I think most other ways of writing durations in short form would be found in scientific and technical work, and would thus lean toward following the SI brochure. Jc3s5h (talk) 21:13, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
- I agree that 1:30:07 is the most accepted and probably the best format, but my point is that giving "1 h 30 min 7 s" as unacceptable while "1 hr 30 min 7 sec" as acceptable looks really wrong and inconsistent. Regarding the usage, "h" is used, but I have also seen idiotic examples like "2 hrs." ("idiotic" because "2 hours" is much more readable and only slightly longer, and if those people wanted a shorter form, then it should be "2 h", which is even shorter and actually standard). As I understand, WP:MOS is supposed not to invent its own rules but to combine the existing ones in a consistent manner. From this perspective, "h", "min" and "s" (and, regarding EEng's comment, "d" for "day") are codified by BIPM and NIST, but I haven't seen any style guide prescribing to use "hr" for "hour" (I also suspect that if these are considered as abbreviations rather than symbols, then at least "min." and "sec." should have periods). — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 02:49, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
I did some search through the history, and it seems that previously "1 h 30 min" was actually listed as an acceptable example. Then these "hr" and "sec" were added [1] by EEng without any references. Then sroc made [2] the current version after some discussion [3] among him(her)self... :–) Frankly, I could not understand how "1 h 30 min" became unacceptable, neither I could find any justification for "hr" and "sec". It was also mentioned in that discussion that "1h 23m 45s" is used for astronomy and navigation, but "1 h 30 m 7 s" seems to be just made up. So, unless somebody can provide reliable sources advocating these notations ("hr", "sec", and "m" for minutes) or rational arguments why we should keep them here, I would suggest to move them to "unacceptable" and return "1 h 30 min 7 s" to "acceptable" in order to make this MOS self-consistent and consistent with the BIPM/NIST notation. — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 08:33, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- Not to make excuses, but at that time "we" (I and some others) were reorganizing this page, with the intention of improving the presentation without changing the substance. This would be one of the few edits which did more than reformat/reword existing examples. I notice that around that time I also did this [4] so I'm pringing sroc to see if he remembers anything about this. It's also possible there was some Talk traffic on the subject too.
- While Wikipedia's MOS generally borrows from styles used and seen elsewhere, it adapts, modifies, and extends to suit its own needs, and it certainly isn't bound by RS the way article content is. EEng 03:33, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- Certainly min and sec can't be mixed. It's min and s, or minute and second. Tony (talk) 08:37, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with Tony, and (contradicting Eeng) would add day (symbol d) to the list. I see no need (ever) on wp for the abbreviations "sec" and "hr" (yuk!). Dondervogel 2 (talk) 09:11, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- I'm happy to be the scapegoat if it helps us toward a better guideline, but how does adding d contradict me? EEng 09:38, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- Aren't ' and " the usual abbreviations for minutes and seconds? Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:59, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- These are widely used in other contexts, so we do not allow them to be used for units of time (or for feet and inches). Instead, they are used (or more correctly, the single and double prime are used) only for minutes and seconds of arc. See the "Specific units" table under "Angle".
- Aren't ' and " the usual abbreviations for minutes and seconds? Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:59, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- I'm happy to be the scapegoat if it helps us toward a better guideline, but how does adding d contradict me? EEng 09:38, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with Tony, and (contradicting Eeng) would add day (symbol d) to the list. I see no need (ever) on wp for the abbreviations "sec" and "hr" (yuk!). Dondervogel 2 (talk) 09:11, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- Certainly min and sec can't be mixed. It's min and s, or minute and second. Tony (talk) 08:37, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- My thoughts are to deprecate the nonstandard symbols "hr" and "sec" and to require the use of "h" and "s" as symbols for the units of time; "d" for day may also be acceptable. The use of "m" to denote the minute should be strongly discouraged. In short, I agree with Mikhail Ryazanov. Archon 2488 (talk) 11:39, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
Proposal T1
So, since no new thoughts appeared here in the passed week, and most editors seem to agree with my concerns, here are the proposed changes:
Aspect | Guideline | Acceptable | Unacceptable |
---|---|---|---|
Mixed units |
... and in expressing time durations ... |
|
Notes to table:
Group | Name | Symbol | Comment |
---|---|---|---|
Time | second | s | Do not use ′ (′), ″ (″), apostrophe (') or quote (") for minutes or seconds. See also the hours–minutes–seconds formats for time durations described in the Unit names and symbols table.
|
minute | min | ||
hour | h | ||
year | a | Use a only with an SI prefix multiplier (a rock formation 540 Ma old, not Life expectancy rose to 60 a). | |
y or yr |
- ^ Wilkins, G. A. (1989). "5.14 Time and angle". IAU Style Manual (PDF). p. S23.
I think, adding day (d) to the last table is not necessary, since that "table lists only units that need special attention", and I cannot imagine what wrong can happen with it. — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 00:13, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
- To summarize the changes:
- In the first table, 1 hr 30 min 7 sec is moving from Acceptable to Unacceptable
- In the first table, 1 h 30 m 7 s is moving from Acceptable to Unacceptable
- In the first table, 1 h 30 min 7 s is moving from Unacceptable to Acceptable
- In the first table, 1 hr 30 m 7 sec is moving from Unacceptable to nowhere
- In the second table, you're dropping the note text, Use m for "minute" only where there is no danger of confusion with meter
In the second table, you're dropping everything about years
- OK, everyone... thoughts? EEng 01:20, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
Mikhail Ryazanov, did you really mean to drop the material in the second table about years?- I only included changes related to hours–minutes–seconds. Everything about years and the rest in these tables stays as it is. — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 01:28, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
Commas instead of Periods as decimal separators
For a website which is global, shouldn't acceptance of both Latin and Arabic numeral systems be equally acceptable? One such example is the 2016 Central Italy earthquake article, where in the talk page it was noted an editor used a comma and not a period. Considering most of Europe and over half of the world use the Arabic comma separator, it just seems that in some circumstances, such as this about an Italian event, systems of the locality should be used, as is the case with spelling differences between American and English when talking specifically about a country-related topic.Grez868 (talk) 00:41, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Italian usage has no weight here, because this is the English Wikipedia, and in the 21st-c English-speaking world the period/full stop are overwhelmingly the decimal separator, though there are minor exceptions. EEng 01:51, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- The English language version of Wikipedia is a worldwide encyclopedia for people who speak English, which is why spelling variations are accepted. Of course, English Wikipedia is read and edited by people who are not fluent in English and I welcome this. I think a fundamental principle behind Wikipedia is, however, to have versions of articles in all languages but delivered as separate language works using separate local cultural styles. This should hopefully reduce the disadvantages faced by people, who are not fluent in English, when they wish to access knowledge. I think a major objective of Wikipedia is to not force people to read only the English version of Wikipedia. An Italian person should be able to read a high-quality article about DNA in Italian Wikipedia using their native language and familiar notation. I think Wikipedia is about recording the knowledge of all cultures but that's not the same as having to present it in all formats in a single work (English Wikipedia). I think it is not unreasonable for English Wikipedia to adopt the decimal (and other) notation used in English-speaking countries. I wouldn't go to Italian Wikipedia and confuse readers by using a decimal point instead of the decimal comma that is used by Italians. It's also problematic for the thousands separator. One million is usually written as 1,000,000 in English-speaking countries but can be written as 1 000 000 in Poland but 1 000 000 or 1.000.000 in Germany. Similar issues are linked to e.g. quotation marks, which vary from country to country even more than decimal notation. I think the solution to this issue probably involves improving the content of Wikipedias in other languages rather than making English Wikipedia even more dominant while the other Wikipedias fall into disuse and force everyone to use English. GeoWriter (talk) 12:07, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- "which is why spelling variations are accepted"—yes, standard varieties within the anglophone world. I used to think it was a little racist, but in reality it's because standard varieties are the most accessible, in the larger scheme, by second-language speakers who read en.WP. Now, comma and point reversals spin out anglophones' minds, my own included: you have to stop a little to process it, and many readers will be foxed by it if they don't know. I'm afraid the comma–point usage is hardwired into the language, just like not writing 445 €, which is really annoying and has to be corrected frequently. I understand where you're coming from, but English is English, and we're stuck with it as part of the translation task. Tony (talk) 12:15, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- The English language version of Wikipedia is a worldwide encyclopedia for people who speak English, which is why spelling variations are accepted. Of course, English Wikipedia is read and edited by people who are not fluent in English and I welcome this. I think a fundamental principle behind Wikipedia is, however, to have versions of articles in all languages but delivered as separate language works using separate local cultural styles. This should hopefully reduce the disadvantages faced by people, who are not fluent in English, when they wish to access knowledge. I think a major objective of Wikipedia is to not force people to read only the English version of Wikipedia. An Italian person should be able to read a high-quality article about DNA in Italian Wikipedia using their native language and familiar notation. I think Wikipedia is about recording the knowledge of all cultures but that's not the same as having to present it in all formats in a single work (English Wikipedia). I think it is not unreasonable for English Wikipedia to adopt the decimal (and other) notation used in English-speaking countries. I wouldn't go to Italian Wikipedia and confuse readers by using a decimal point instead of the decimal comma that is used by Italians. It's also problematic for the thousands separator. One million is usually written as 1,000,000 in English-speaking countries but can be written as 1 000 000 in Poland but 1 000 000 or 1.000.000 in Germany. Similar issues are linked to e.g. quotation marks, which vary from country to country even more than decimal notation. I think the solution to this issue probably involves improving the content of Wikipedias in other languages rather than making English Wikipedia even more dominant while the other Wikipedias fall into disuse and force everyone to use English. GeoWriter (talk) 12:07, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- My personal philosophy here would be to pick one and stick with it; since English typically uses the period as a decimal separator, that is what en.wp uses. Personally, I am opposed to using commas in numbers at all because of this ambiguity; the SI standard, for example, is to permit either the comma or the period as a decimal separator, so long as one of them is used consistently (BIPM publications in French use the former, while in English they use the latter), while large numbers should be split up with thin non-line-breaking spaces to avoid ambiguity: 10590 km. Formally, "10,590 km", "10.590 km", and "10590 m" mean exactly the same thing. Archon 2488 (talk) 15:08, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- GeoWriter says "I wouldn't go to Italian Wikipedia and confuse readers by using a decimal point instead of the decimal comma that is used by Italians." I don't understand. GeoWriter has just argued for using the typography local to what the article is about -- Italian notation for an earthquake in Italy is the example. Wouldn't an article about an American earthquake in the Italian Wikipedia then use the American decimal point by this logic? This doesn't make sense, so I suspect is some kind of special pleading along and so I've lost interest in the proposal. Herostratus (talk) 15:38, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Did you mean to position this as a response to me? I am confused. On my reading of GeoWriter's comment above, it does not mean what you say it means. Rather, GeoWriter says explicitly that "...it is not unreasonable for English Wikipedia to adopt the decimal (and other) notation used in English-speaking countries." He does not say that the English WP should use Italian notation or that the Italian WP would be expected to use American notation (rather the opposite), and he does not use the phrasing "local to what the article is about" – I would be cautious about paraphrasing people in this way unless you can be confident of their intended meaning. I am, however, confused by his closing remarks about improving non-English wikipedias vs. "making English Wikipedia even more dominant". I don't understand what this has to do with typographical matters. Archon 2488 (talk) 15:55, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Herostratus wrote: "GeoWriter has just argued for using the typography local to what the article is about -- Italian notation for an earthquake in Italy is the example." That is not my position. My position is: use English notation on English Wikipedia and Italian notation on Italian Wikipedia. Perhaps you have mistaken me for another contributor, because I think your comments about what you think I've said seem to more closely reflect the proposal made by Grez868 who started this discussion. GeoWriter (talk) 16:24, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Oops sorry you're write I misread it. Herostratus (talk) 21:56, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- It was hard to see what Grez868 was getting at, with his Arabic versus Latin concept. I thought he meant Roman numerals at first. We all use Arabic digits, but the separator conventions do not come from there. In the English encyclopedia, we use point for decimals and commas (optionally) for digit grouping; mixing these up in different articles would be a disaster for our readers, so we don't. Dicklyon (talk) 16:30, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- And I agree with Archon that the optional use of commas to group digits is a bad idea and introduces ambiguity for those who sometimes interpret the comma as a decimal point; the BIPM says not to do this, yet WP allows it. If anything, we should be moving toward stricter, more uniform, more standard, less ambiguous number styling, not toward more ambiguous as Grez868 proposes here. Dicklyon (talk) 16:36, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Archon 2488, I think many non-native speakers of English contribute to English Wikipedia, even in preference to their native language version, because English is the dominant Wikipedia version. I welcome these editors. I think improving non-English Wikipedias to address the dominance of English Wikipedia is relevant to typography and notation because I think it is a contributory reason why e.g. decimal commas occur on English Wikipedia. GeoWriter (talk) 17:23, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- I understand what you're saying, but the solution here at en.wp is to create a consistent style and require editors to stick to it (and you don't seem to disagree with this). We need to bear in mind that, although its servers are based in the USA, WP is an international project with a global scope, and we would like our content to be equally accessible (as far as that is possible) to everyone – so we cannot just follow the Associated Press Stylebook (for example). We need to accept that a very large proportion of our readers and editors are not native English speakers, and so our notation should be as close to a standard international style as possible (while not totally disregarding Anglosphere norms); this is why I say that commas in numbers should not be used, since they can cause confusion with the decimal separator widely used in non-Anglophone cultures (and using the comma as a decimal separator, conversely, confuses Anglophones).
- GeoWriter says "I wouldn't go to Italian Wikipedia and confuse readers by using a decimal point instead of the decimal comma that is used by Italians." I don't understand. GeoWriter has just argued for using the typography local to what the article is about -- Italian notation for an earthquake in Italy is the example. Wouldn't an article about an American earthquake in the Italian Wikipedia then use the American decimal point by this logic? This doesn't make sense, so I suspect is some kind of special pleading along and so I've lost interest in the proposal. Herostratus (talk) 15:38, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Of course, the need for global reach is also why we have wikiprojects in languages other than English – but clearly, we are not capable of implementing solutions that would require enormous editor-power to make every version of WP of roughly equivalent quality. If your native language is Greek or Latvian, you're probably resigned to the fact that you can get access to a lot more information in English than in your native language (there are concepts in statistics and economics that explain the emergence of such monopolies), and realistically, nothing we do at Wikipedia is going to change that, because the reasons why it happens extend far beyond the scope of Wikipedia. Archon 2488 (talk) 12:05, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- I think you actually raise a very good point there. Often times when searching for something in another language, the content of the page is close to nothing compared to what is on the English version. Infoboxes are sparsely used and only pushes everyone to the English Wikipedia. After reading all the views here, I have to conclude that (personally), I agree that there should be a single international convention developed where separators are used only when actually speaking of a decimal integer where a period (".") is necessary and spacing should then be used for other extended integers. For an international project where English is obviously the most used, it just seems this would be the thing to cause least confusion to the reader-base as an entirety, and using spaces in lieu of decimal commas/points would be obvious to everybody, even when a decimal point is used to indicate a number with decimal places/fractional numbers. It's the same with commas as separators of large numbers (i.e. 1,001). Someone in Germany would read this as 1.001 (a number with three decimal places), whereas some countries (even English speaking) would be confused as to why there is even a comma there. I for one in School in the UK was never taught to use a comma for 4 digit numbers, only for 5 and above. The system, as-is, is a farce for the international audience and isn't working by the number of edits which have to take place to correct them.Grez868 (talk) 22:31, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
- Um, would I be right in summarizing the above as: Everyone except the OP agrees we should retain the current guideline i.e.
A period/full point (
.
), never a comma, is used as the decimal point (6.57, not 6,57).
- EEng 19:55, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Yes. Kendall-K1 (talk) 20:04, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- Yes. Peter coxhead (talk) 12:32, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- Yes. Robevans123 (talk) 14:41, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- Me too. The important principle here is adopt a rule and stick with it, consistently. One can argue about whether that rule should be a period or full stop, but a comma? Not on the English wp Dondervogel 2 (talk) 22:18, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- Me too (in case it wasn't clear). We haven't heard from the OP since he/she OP'd, so I think this is dead anyway. EEng 00:09, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- Yes. By the way, I have seen a script change the dot to a comma in "9.999" where 9 is any digit. It even changed 0.342 to 0,342! That's on the principle that someone must have copied the number from another wiki where dot is a thousands separator. Johnuniq (talk) 01:32, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- On the contrary, there are comments saying that "something" needs to change to achieve better standardisation and cause less confusion amongst the readerbase as a whole, especially considering how many of them are not native to the UK/USA. Read my comment above for more on what I think.Grez868 (talk) 22:31, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
- What I see are concerns that the "thousands separator" (shall we call it) should be a space/thinspace instead of comma. I see no one (including you) advocating any change to the bit of guideline text I quoted above. EEng 23:00, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
- To be honest, I'm a little confused myself right now whether i meant that percentile numbers should be adjusted or numbers depicting large numbers as the word decimal covers all forms of number which we actively use (alternatives being of course Binary, Octa and Hex). I tried finding my original logic by looking through the edits of the initially mentioned article but can't seem to find it. Timestamp of my original post for me is a little after midnight, August 24th (UTC) but the article wasn't started until hours after that. In any case, both scenarios could be cleared up by only having one punctuation used in numbers of all kinds, because doing so would eliminate any cause for confusion of what it is (a percentile/number with decimal point or a long integer). As aforementioned, this would be done by eliminating commas from long integers. I guess this suggestion is an unlikely one though because reflecting, with the number of articles we have on the English side of Wikipedia, adjusting as necessary would literally take forever. I'm with the consensus.Grez868 (talk) 23:44, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
- What I see are concerns that the "thousands separator" (shall we call it) should be a space/thinspace instead of comma. I see no one (including you) advocating any change to the bit of guideline text I quoted above. EEng 23:00, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
- We should stick with the dot as the decimal separator. This is English, not French or whatever Wikipedia. Something like "47.5" is read aloud as "forty-seven point five" because English uses a point here, not a comma. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 18:46, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Looks like we're done re . as decimal point; now what about the thousands separator?
I would support the deprecation of the comma as a thousands separator. It would need to take forever to implement (that's what bots are for) but even if takes a long time, it's still worth making this improvement. Isn't that what the thin space is for? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 15:51, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
- Well, if you guys want to take on convincing people to deprecate comma, I'll enjoy the show, but no matter what this should not be a bot-implemented mass change. Aside from the problem of subtle errors of some kind (imagine an article on IBM data formats) for people who will be suspicious in the first place that the thinspaces are some kind of internationalist commie politically correct typographical plot, nothing will be more infuriating than a bot arriving to implement it automatically. Take the Fabian approach. EEng 18:14, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
- Happy to defer to EEng's greater wisdom re Pasionariabot (sincerely meant - no sarcasm intended, honest guv). My preference for the thin space over the comma remains. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 18:23, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
- While some scientific topics are exceptions, there is no prospect of replacing commas with gaps generally. Anyone wanting to make that proposal should work out how to deal with the wikitext and the copy-paste problem. Try copying the following text and pasting it somewhere:
1,234,567
→ 1,234,567<span style="white-space: nowrap">1<span style="margin-left: 0.25em">234</span><span style="margin-left: 0.25em">567</span></span>
→ 12345671 234 567
→ 1 234 567
- The first and second lines can be copied/pasted as expected, but the third line does not give a useful number. Very few enwiki editors would want to use anything other than 1,234,567 and would not want to use {{gaps}} or other klunkiness. Johnuniq (talk) 01:15, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
- I agree that the potential advantages of deprecating , as thousands separator aren't worth the trouble. This people can live with. EEng 07:39, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- Notwithstanding my preference for the thin space, I agree we can live with comma. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 11:42, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- The thousands separator has been a mess in the world of computers at least since the time we stopped printing on 14 inch (35 cm) wide green bar paper with tractor-feed holes, and expected ordinary people to read numbers produced by a computer. The computer industry is nowhere close to solving the problem, and I don't think Wikipedia is in any position to fix it. Lets just curse under our breath and stick with commas. Jc3s5h (talk) 13:07, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- Notwithstanding my preference for the thin space, I agree we can live with comma. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 11:42, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- I agree that the potential advantages of deprecating , as thousands separator aren't worth the trouble. This people can live with. EEng 07:39, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- While some scientific topics are exceptions, there is no prospect of replacing commas with gaps generally. Anyone wanting to make that proposal should work out how to deal with the wikitext and the copy-paste problem. Try copying the following text and pasting it somewhere:
- Happy to defer to EEng's greater wisdom re Pasionariabot (sincerely meant - no sarcasm intended, honest guv). My preference for the thin space over the comma remains. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 18:23, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
- Stick with somma. Using a space of some width or other is a non-English and (in English) specialist usage that is unrecognized by and confusing to the majority of our readers. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 18:47, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Archived discussion regarding WP:DATERANGE
For future reference, because I spent too long trying to find it, the discussion over data ranges was archived at:
When discussions like that take place outside of the MOS talk pages, should a link not be left here in the archives after the discussion has concluded? Maybe I missed such a link. I did find a pointer to the discussion in these archives here, but nothing after the discussion closed. Oh. I've just seen the note added here. Managed to miss that somehow... I'll still leave this note here, in case that note gets removed at some point. Carcharoth (talk) 06:15, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
Guidance on mid-2000 or mid 2000
Is it mid-2000 or mid 2000? Similarly for early-2000 and late-2000. I could not see this issue covered in the style manual. Perhaps someone could decide which form is acceptable and add this information to the guide. Best wishes. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 23:53, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
Following similar usage elsewhere, Robbie, the answer is both, as you might have guessed. Mid-2000 only when the pair are used together as an adjective. So we might write: "We should be done by mid 2000." But we also could write: "We're not sure we'll be able to meet the mid-2000 deadline." It would be exactly the same if we instead used "the middle of." So we might write: "We should be done by the middle of 2000." But we also could write: "We're not sure we'll be able to meet the middle-of-2000 deadline." Wikifan2744 (talk) 04:05, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
Range-dash wording
"(as is any range)", at the top, should be "(as is any range not preceded by "between" or "from")", if we're to be precise. Or otherwise reworded. Tony (talk) 02:43, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
- [5] EEng 05:19, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
- That looks good; thanks. I'm still thinking about the discussion, wherever it was, about digit elision in page number ranges. We don't do this a lot, but a few editors and a few articles still do. Seems to me we ought to recommend against digit elision as completely pointless and potentially confusing, and gradually work on fixing such things (as I've been doing for years anyway). I don't see this as conflicting with the general tolerance of a wide range of citation styles. Dicklyon (talk) 01:03, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
- The Chicago Manual of Style seems to prefer the form with two digits for the end page. (Note, not just one, even if that would be enough.) I have a request in for the Modern Language Association, as their guide isn't online. Since reference page ranges tend to be in the low tens of pages, for either whole journal articles, or sections of books, the shorter form seems fine to me. For other than page ranges, I don't know that anyone is suggesting it. Gah4 (talk) 03:04, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
- User:Dicklyon, you really prefer pp. 12,344–12,346 to pp. 12,344–46? You get these massive numbers in cumulatively paginated journals—a great disservice to everyone. Tony (talk) 06:54, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
Era: "BCE" and "CE"
- Heading was
"Era:The time has come for Wikipedia to require that era designations, if used, must be "BCE" and "CE" in almost all new articles "
Increasingly, scholars using dates preceding the Christian era, and especially those working in fields such as archeology, Biblical studies, linguistics, and history, have recognized that the use of Christian date designations ("BC" and "AD"), in a world in which scholars and other educated persons increasingly come from the two-thirds of the world's population that is non Christian, is inappropriate, except, perhaps, in articles about Christianity itself or in those about the history of Christian parts of the world. Instead, the scholarly world is emphatically switching to the use of the nonsectarian date designations "BCE" and "CE" in the above fields and in science in general.
For example, the American Journal of Archaeology [1]says: "The AJA uses B.C.E. (“before the common era”) and C.E. (“common era”) for historical dates." In other words, authors must use the nonsectarian style for era in manuscripts submitted to the AJA.
From previous discussions I know that some writers are quite adamant that our calendar is based on Christian events and that it is wrong to use anything but BC and AD. Many of us, however, agree with former United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan (himself a Christian) when, under "Rationale" in our article on "Common Era," he is quoted as having argued:[2]
[T]he Christian calendar no longer belongs exclusively to Christians. People of all faiths have taken to using it simply as a matter of convenience. There is so much interaction between people of different faiths and cultures – different civilizations, if you like – that some shared way of reckoning time is a necessity. And so the Christian Era has become the Common Era.[3]
The English Wikipedia is falling behind the times and is beginning to look silly by continuing to allow authors to use BC and AD at their own discretion. Following the lead of the AJA (above), we would require articles on any subject to use BCE and CE. But the opposition to such a sudden and total change in policy would be huge. My recommendation, instead, is to allow existing articles to follow current guidelines. That would permit change to occur gradually and gently as editors replace BC and AD with BCE and CE when they discover existing articles where the continued use of BC and AD would be clearly inappropriate, such as articles about non-Christian parts of the world or articles about events prior to the common era that have no connection to Christianity, even if they occurred in parts of the world that are now largely Christian. Such change to BCE and CE would eventually include almost all existing articles that have no obvious connection to Christianity.
New articles, on the other hand, should be required to use BCE and CE, except, perhaps, for those specifically about Christianity or about the history of Christian parts of the world, where even science was intimately connected with the church (think Galileo Galilei). Such articles, some Wikipedians would argue, should reflect that connection to Christianity by the use of BC and AD. The AJA (above) would not allow it, but Wikipedia is not the AJA, and so we might have to — at least for a time.
I believe that this untenable situation needs to be remedied as soon as possible, not years from now. Continued procrastination will just lead to a further erosion of the already slipping reputation of Wikipedia as a reliable repository of information and knowledge from reputable and verifiable sources. Wikifan2744 (talk) 03:50, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
References
- ^ http://ajaonline.org/submissions/editorial-style
- ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Era#cite_note-78
- ^ Annan, Kofi A., (then Secretary-General of the United Nations) (28 June 1999). "Common values for a common era: Even as we cherish our diversity, we need to discover our shared values". Civilization: The Magazine of the Library of Congress. Archived from the original on May 1, 2011. Retrieved 2011-05-18.
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- Per existing guidance BC and AD are the traditional ways of designating eras. BCE and CE are common in some scholarly texts and in certain topic areas. Either convention may be appropriate for use in Wikipedia articles. Basically it doesn't make any sense to force this, one should follow what the sources for the topic of interest give, rather than forcing it. --MASEM (t) 04:03, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
The alacrity of your response, Masem, makes it clear that you are one of those whose knee-jerk response I was anticipating in my third paragraph. It also makes clear that you didn't impartially consider the situation I described. Of course, BC/AD is traditional. The horse was traditional, too, but telling early adopters of the automobile to "get a horse" didn't make the automobile disappear.
The tide of publications, including major style guides, switching to BCE/CE has reached a tipping point. Such sudden, massive changes always take the unwary by surprise, forcing them to scramble to just keep up. Further, we have editors, Masem, who are so determined to keep BC/AD entrenched that they ignore the choice of the sources to use BCE/CE. They are the ones who are forcing it.
We have been following existing guidance and it's contributing to the English Wikipedia becoming a joke. Users reading about historical events in China with dates designated as AD can only laugh and go elsewhere for their info.
Irrational rearguard actions by stubborn and inflexible traditionalists are the norm when rational persons try to put things aright. In their efforts to stop the tide, however, they just make adaptation to the new circumstances increasingly more painful and costly to accomplish. Wikifan2744 (talk) 06:40, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
- It's frustrating, but perhaps Masem's view is a reaction to the battleground of discussions about this issue. Me, I'd go with BCE and CE only, in a flash; but I'm not up for the monumental fight against the christian lobby. Tony (talk) 06:50, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
English Wikipedia becoming a joke
.[citation needed] Harbingers of doom rarely make a good case. --Izno (talk) 13:19, 2 October 2016 (UTC)- Like Tony1, I prefer BCE/CE, but Wikifan2744 should have more confidence in what they write:
the tide of publications, including major style guides, switching to BCE/CE has reached a tipping point
. If this is indeed so, editors will switch without needing to be forced. Peter coxhead (talk) 14:45, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
The horse was traditional, too, but telling early adopters of the automobile
... Let me stop you there. No, you can't compare BC/AD vs. BCE/CE to horse vs. automobile. BCE/CE is, rather, still a horse, but one you've insisted on calling a "Common Riding Animal" while otherwise continuing to use in the exact same fashion, while also taking a conniption fit and employing a holier-than-thou and sanctimonious attitude toward those who still refer to it by the common terminology of "horse". I perceive morally-outraged BC/AD haters as no different than someone who might equally insist that we stop calling the fourth planet from the sun Mars because that planet "has nothing to do with Roman mythology". It's a laughably ridiculous attempt to control language. Many secular sources use BC/AD, while many others use BCE/CE. It varies wildly across countries using the English language. We should continue to use both for the exact same reasons we continue to employ WP:ENGVAR. BCE/CE are not increasingly used because they are any more "valid" or correct, but instead mostly due to modern sensibilities relating to political correctness, in a similar vein to countless other terms that have developed since the 1980s. For as long as BC/AD are used by reliable sources to refer to the era in which they were the originally-employed terms, we will use them. To artificially force their deletion here would be ridiculous. If you don't like the de facto use of the Christian calendar, start lobbying for the Holocene calendar. — Crumpled Fire • contribs • 00:04, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
- The Quakers (nice people they, except of course for Richard Nixon) for a long time refused to say, "Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday..." or "January, February, March..." because of their pagan meanings; for decades the venerable Bradshaw's Guide would tell you that a certain train did not run "on First Day in Fifth and Sixth Month", because George Bradshaw was a Quaker. But as nicely expressed here, "In the 20th Century, many Friends began accepting use of the common date names, feeling that any pagan meaning has been forgotten." That's a sensible, practical attitude of the sort reflected in our current guideline. EEng 00:18, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
- While our sources may use BCE/CE due to "modern sensibilities relating to political correctness", we have the additional requirement for WP:NPOV, which is one of our core policies. WP:ENGVAR upholds WP:NPOV, but using BC and AD goes against it. Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:39, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
- Okay, here we go with the NPOV argument. If you're going to take WP:NPOV to mean not using terminology that is etymologically tied to one religion over others, which is not at all what a proper reading of it would indicate, then you're gonna have a bad time with the English language itself (re: Christianity, and various European polytheistic religions). Additionally, I could easily argue that BCE/CE would constitute more of a violation of WP:NPOV than BC/AD do, since they specifically designate the Western Christian era as what should be considered the world's "common" era above all others, rather than simply employing the inherent terms originally associated with the calendar itself. The actual bias here is using the Gregorian calendar itself as our de facto calendar; the subsequent era terminology that is used is inconsequential. But alas, using the Gregorian calendar is just a condition of the world we live in. So is, by the way, using the Hindu-Arabic numeral system instead of Roman numerals, despite the latter's stronger initial ties to the West. Should we refer to them as Common Numerals and rid Wikipedia of all reference to "Hindu" in regard to these numerals to get rid of that pesky religious "POV"? Please, spare me. — Crumpled Fire • contribs • 01:15, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
- While our sources may use BCE/CE due to "modern sensibilities relating to political correctness", we have the additional requirement for WP:NPOV, which is one of our core policies. WP:ENGVAR upholds WP:NPOV, but using BC and AD goes against it. Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:39, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
- The Quakers (nice people they, except of course for Richard Nixon) for a long time refused to say, "Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday..." or "January, February, March..." because of their pagan meanings; for decades the venerable Bradshaw's Guide would tell you that a certain train did not run "on First Day in Fifth and Sixth Month", because George Bradshaw was a Quaker. But as nicely expressed here, "In the 20th Century, many Friends began accepting use of the common date names, feeling that any pagan meaning has been forgotten." That's a sensible, practical attitude of the sort reflected in our current guideline. EEng 00:18, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose - per EEng, let's not do this again. The trend is toward BCE, but BC is still by far more common. If anything, the current guideline is too generous in allowing the use of BCE in non-specialty articles. Let's re-visit this discussion when BCE is more common. Kendall-K1 (talk) 01:36, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose - per EEng. It's quite a timesink. Let's look at it again in ten years or so. Herostratus (talk) 14:58, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
- And, you know, re "I'm not up for the monumental fight against the christian lobby" and so forth: grrr. For my money, BCE overly exalts the importance of Christ and here's why: "BC" means -- "Before Christ, which is basically a random date -- we could have had "From the Founding of Rome" or "From the Founding of the Shang Dynasty" or whatever; but some dude got lucky and here we are" whereas "Before the Common Era" seems to mean (or certainly could be taken to mean) "Before the Beginning of History". What else is "Common Era" supposed to mean? This equates the (supposed) birth year of Christ with the beginning of History or Real Life or The Age of the Common Man or whatever it's supposed to mean, and that's a bit rich for my taste. Herostratus (talk) 22:36, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
- Indeed I find it hilarious the argument that those who use or support any continued use of BC/AD must be part of some "Christian lobby"... are those who have no desire to rename Mars to Common Planet Four also part of a pagan lobby? And notice today's Google Doodle about the 434th Anniversary of the Gregorian Calendar, right there in the official text it uses "BC" not "BCE". Is Google, a largely secular liberal organization founded by two American Jews, part of the "Christian lobby"? — Crumpled Fire • contribs • 14:30, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
- And, you know, re "I'm not up for the monumental fight against the christian lobby" and so forth: grrr. For my money, BCE overly exalts the importance of Christ and here's why: "BC" means -- "Before Christ, which is basically a random date -- we could have had "From the Founding of Rome" or "From the Founding of the Shang Dynasty" or whatever; but some dude got lucky and here we are" whereas "Before the Common Era" seems to mean (or certainly could be taken to mean) "Before the Beginning of History". What else is "Common Era" supposed to mean? This equates the (supposed) birth year of Christ with the beginning of History or Real Life or The Age of the Common Man or whatever it's supposed to mean, and that's a bit rich for my taste. Herostratus (talk) 22:36, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose - If and when BCE/CE becomes the more common usage, then (and only then) we might want to change our policy to favor BCE/CE. As it is BC/CE is still far more common, and far far more broadly understood (which would in fact be a reasonable argument for mandating the opposite policy from that being proposed). Paul August ☎ 16:09, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose - It really doesn't matter, BC - Before Christ, BCE - Bell Canada Enterprises, CE - Conformité Européenne, whatever. It really doesn't make any significant difference.
- I personally prefer the ISO 8601 date format, which is totally irreligious, non-culture specific, and non-ambiguous. Years prior to year zero are represented by negative numbers and years after year zero by positive numbers. Year zero, which Jesus Christ was not born in, is year 0. We should avoid building cultural and religious biases into standards.RockyMtnGuy (talk) 14:20, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
- As well as I know, the usual system does not include a year zero, as zero hadn't yet been invented. Are any events known accurately enough that adding a year zero would require any changes? As well as I know, there is at least a few year uncertainty as to the actual year that JC was born. (No birth certificate has been presented.) Even so, as far as I know it isn't up to Wikipedia to change the calendar system for the world. I do agree that it makes some sense, though. Gah4 (talk) 16:33, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- There are many events before 1 January 1 that are known with an uncertainty of a few days, in terms of being able to convert the calendar in which they were recorded to a modern calendar. One example is the Assassination of Julius Caesar. Astronomical events before 1 January 1 can be dated with an accuracy considerably better than 1 day. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:06, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- I wasn't trying to be too serious about it, but it is interesting. I am sure that the astronomers could figure out the change, they already have to compensate when there is a leap second. I was thinking about all the already printed books that would have to be changed. If someone really wanted to do it, it could have been done along with the change to BCE. That is, an offset of 1 between BC and BCE. Then no change to old records would be needed. Too late for that now. Gah4 (talk) 17:22, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- There are many events before 1 January 1 that are known with an uncertainty of a few days, in terms of being able to convert the calendar in which they were recorded to a modern calendar. One example is the Assassination of Julius Caesar. Astronomical events before 1 January 1 can be dated with an accuracy considerably better than 1 day. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:06, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- As well as I know, the usual system does not include a year zero, as zero hadn't yet been invented. Are any events known accurately enough that adding a year zero would require any changes? As well as I know, there is at least a few year uncertainty as to the actual year that JC was born. (No birth certificate has been presented.) Even so, as far as I know it isn't up to Wikipedia to change the calendar system for the world. I do agree that it makes some sense, though. Gah4 (talk) 16:33, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- I personally prefer the ISO 8601 date format, which is totally irreligious, non-culture specific, and non-ambiguous. Years prior to year zero are represented by negative numbers and years after year zero by positive numbers. Year zero, which Jesus Christ was not born in, is year 0. We should avoid building cultural and religious biases into standards.RockyMtnGuy (talk) 14:20, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
- Seems to me that BC and BCE are interchangeable enough not to bother anyone, so I Oppose requiring BCE. Is there something weaker than require, but that hints that one might be preferred? Seems that most people omit the AD or CE, but in case one did want to specify, I believe that CE makes enough more sense. I would require CE over AD. Gah4 (talk) 23:01, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
An Alternative Proposal
I agree with the vast majority of commentators above: we should not ban BC and AD. However, I feel we should encourage BCE and use CE where appropriate. I also feel that the present policy needs revising.
- AD and BC are inappropriate in dealing with articles about non-Christian religions.
- According to scholars, Jesus was born somewhere between 6 and 4 BCE. Therefore the traditional appellation makes no sense historically or theologically.
- The traditional appellation is increasingly being replaced by CE/BCE.
- Nevertheless, the traditional BC/AD usage is still very common and has strong support.
The present text reads:
- BC and AD are the traditional ways of designating eras. BCE and CE are common in some scholarly texts and in certain topic areas. Either convention may be appropriate for use in Wikipedia articles.
I believe that something like this would be more appropriate. Note, however, this proposal leaves unchanged the proviso that the era style can only be changed by agreement:
- BC and AD are the traditional ways of designating eras but BCE and CE are common in scholarly texts and are more appropriate in certain topic areas. However, BC/AD may be used in Wikipedia articles where its use is accepted.
This proposal may need rewording, but would something like this be more appropriate than the present text? Michael Glass (talk) 02:01, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
- I have a better idea: stop talking about this and go back to improving articles. I see no evidence any change to the guideline is needed, or even desirable. EEng 02:27, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
- No. All you've done is changed the wording from neutral to biased in favor of BCE/CE, with no credible reason. Why is it
“inappropriate in dealing with articles about non-Christian religions”
or“more appropriate in certain topic areas”
, and who decides that? That's a rather vague and unfounded statement. Should Hindu-Arabic numerals only be referred to as such in articles relating to Arabia or Hinduism? Should "Mars" never be used to refer to the fourth planet from our Sun in articles about Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. because the god Mars isn't an Abrahamic deity? How about Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday? The Christian world kept those pagan names, why does the post-Christian world have such an itchy trigger finger for the sole Christian element of the calendar? Despite the BCE/CE euphemism's increase in popularity since the 1980s, it's still not more widespread than BC/AD. If it ever becomes overwhelmingly predominant, only then would preferring it here be appropriate to reflect the world at large. Until then, community consensus on an individual article basis is the best way to deal with this mess. — Crumpled Fire • contribs • 06:05, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
The responses above show that BC/AD has strong support. However, it is a mistake to consider Wikipedia as a "Christian world." Rather, it's a place that should embrace all, whether Christian or non-Christian. Nor should it be thought that all Christians are hostile towards BCE/CE.
- Here is an argument for change from a Christian website [6]
- Here is the article on the Religious Tolerance website [7]
- Here is an article from the New York Times [8]
However, this is not the main point. There are situations where the traditional BC/AD usage is not as appropriate as BCE/CE. Take the Wikipedia article on Judas Maccabeus, or for that matter, Moses where there were 13 BCEs in the text and only one BC. Whatever the wording, it should not imply that BC/AD and BCE/CE are essentially interchangeable in every context. They are not. Michael Glass (talk) 12:19, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
What should the articles (on the topic of years) from 1 to 100 be moved to?
Please comment at the follow-up RfC on how the topic of years 1-100 should be titled here. Thank you, — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 00:21, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water... EEng 00:26, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
Hex notation when there is a standard
From MOS:HEX, you are supposed to use C (0x) notation. Is this still true when there is a standard notation for hex constants in the case that the article is describing? The current discussion is on UTF-32, where Unicode normally uses the U+ notation. Also, in discussions for machines that have an assembler notation for hex constants, it makes sense to me to use that notation. Gah4 (talk) 02:21, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- MOS is wonderful, but it's only a guideline and should not be rigidly enforced without thought. The problem appears to be an IP at Talk:UTF-32#65,536 plane restriction and their opinion about 0x000000 being the correct way to write 0 is misguided. Of course the article should use Unicode procedures, after a brief explanation. Johnuniq (talk) 02:30, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- In the current UTF-32 case, I think I am with the 0x0000 form, as it seems more consistent to use the same notation at both ends of a range. If I am initializing an array in C, I use the same notation for all elements, even zero. Otherwise, most likely just zero. But in this case, I suspect that the U+ notation is an even better choice. Gah4 (talk) 03:05, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
What is correct? 23rd of Twenty-third?
Hello. Can anyone let me know what is the correct MoS if we have to write twenty-third in articles - "23rd" or "twenty-third"? I am asking in connection with this edit. Thanks, Arun Kumar SINGH (Talk) 16:25, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- My reading of the MOS is that either is acceptable in this case as long as both numbers are in the same style. The ordinal suffix should not be superscripted. Kendall-K1 (talk) 16:31, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- Mine too but it is not clearly defined (unless I missed it). Arun Kumar SINGH (Talk) 16:32, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- I've boldly added something to MOSDATES which I think will help. [9] EEng 18:46, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- My understanding from previous discussions (admittedly shooting from the hip here as I have not checked the present text) is that "23rd" is never correct. Only "23rd" and "twenty-third" are permitted, right? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 21:19, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- Yes. It's all in the section diffed at the link I just gave (including the link given there). EEng 21:24, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- I did not find the clarification in the linked text so I read it again ... and again ... and again ... and would have continued ad nauseum had I not thought of ignoring the link and just reading the line AFTER it. My suggestion to avoid trapping our readers in the same infinite loop is to move the link one line down, as edited a couple of minutes ago. Does that work? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 00:22, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
- Yes. It's all in the section diffed at the link I just gave (including the link given there). EEng 21:24, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- My understanding from previous discussions (admittedly shooting from the hip here as I have not checked the present text) is that "23rd" is never correct. Only "23rd" and "twenty-third" are permitted, right? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 21:19, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
hex range
As noted, hex values use C notation for hex constants. The question now is a range of hex values. Should all number in a range use the same base? (Seems obvious.) Should they even if one is zero? (Less obvious.) As an example, consider the range of non-negative 32 bit twos complement values: 0x00000000 to 0x7fffffff. It is convenient in some cases to indicate the width (32 bits in this case) with the appropriate number of leading zeros, or all zeros in the zero case. But one could also just use 0 for zero, or 0x0. There is an edit war regarding this, so any help would be appreciated. Gah4 (talk) 21:30, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
- I'm sorry there's an edit war, but this is far too obscure a case for MOS to get into, unless it's been coming up over and over. Where's the edit war? EEng 21:38, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
- The specific case is for UTF-32. Gah4 (talk) 21:43, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
- I took a look. This is definitely something that could be appropriate either way, "depending". You're gonna have to work it out on the talk page. (Of course, I invite any of my esteemed fellow editors stalking this page to help in that discussion if they feel qualified to do so.) EEng 21:46, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
- It's lamer than usual, and I agree it needs use of the article talk page, not MOS. At UTF-32 one tribe wants to change things like between 0 and 0x7FFFFFFF to between 0x00000000 and 0x7FFFFFFF. Another issue is whether to use between 0 and U+7FFFFFFF (or U+00000000 and U+7FFFFFFF). Johnuniq (talk) 21:56, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
- I took a look. This is definitely something that could be appropriate either way, "depending". You're gonna have to work it out on the talk page. (Of course, I invite any of my esteemed fellow editors stalking this page to help in that discussion if they feel qualified to do so.) EEng 21:46, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
- The specific case is for UTF-32. Gah4 (talk) 21:43, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
Should MOSNUM be brought closer to the Times Style Guide’s prescription on Sport?
There is a mismatch between a literal reading of MOSNUM advice on UK usage and the Times Style Guide..
This guide says, "The overwhelming preference is sporting, foreign, engineering and scientific stories to be metric…” [10] MOSNUM follows this in science and non-UK/US contexts and has adapted this in engineering. However, in the sporting context, the Times Style Guide is not explicitly followed. As a result, a literal reading of MOSNUM guidance may be somewhat out of line with the Times Style Guide, British practice and much Wikipedia practice in several sports.
- UK weightlifting rules [11] measure the weights (and the weightlifters) in kilograms.
- UK Rugby League [12] (metric only format for heights and weights)
- UK Rugby Union [13] (metric only format for heights and weights)
- Wikipedia player profiles in these sports more often than not follow the format used by the sport and because of the general sanctions,[17] this cannot change without agreement.
To deal with this gap between MOSNUM and Wikipedia practice, an explanatory clause like the engineering clause could be helpful. Perhaps it could read like this:
- In UK sporting articles, the primary units should generally follow the predominant usage of the sport.
This would support present UK practice in sports, whether imperial or metric, and also support the predominant Wikipedia practice. Also, as any adjustment in the order of UK units would still have to be approved in advance, the good order achieved by the General Sanctions on UK units would not be overturned.
What do others think of this proposal?Michael Glass (talk) 02:03, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
- Ah, back to this crap. It hasn't been missed.
- We already follow what the Times tells us to pretty closely. When the Times says that most units in British sporting contexts are metric, that's true, in Wikipedia as elsewhere. The apparent confusion arises because it is only in the strange world of units disputes in Wikipedia where the most important aspects of sporting units usage are the measurements of the physical dimensions of the players and not, say, the dimensions of the field of play or the usage in the rules or laws of the games in question.
- (This is more widespread than this. I once deleted a sport section of Metrication in the United Kingdom because it mentioned nothing about the degree of metrication in sport but went on and on about which units individual websites used to measure players.)
- No matter how many times you try to claim the contrary, it is not evidence of anything to provide links to individual usages and claim them to be universal. All they are representative of are a single website, if that.
- You make sweeping claims of all of rugby (both codes) based on the websites describing only the senior teams. You make sweeping claims about football and other sport again based on very paltry evidence. And as it so happens you always pick the most metric example (surprise!). You demonstrate the depths of your understanding by claiming England teams and an English league as representative of the entire UK. Frankly, you wouldn't expect a British five-year-old to make that mistake. I oppose this proposal because it gives far too much scope for this sort of rubbish to be pushed.
- Insofar as the players' dimensions often do not match the MOS, the reason is that you went through articles by the thousand quite deliberately violating the rule, trying to create a WP:FAITACCOMPLI. So far as I can tell, the only reason you stopped is because you were forced to by the general sanctions. Kahastok talk 08:01, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
- I think we should stop and thank Kahastok for his constructive response, which launched the discussion about this proposal directly to the ad hominem level in a single comment. This page is not for debating the crimes, real or imagined, of Michael Glass, so a lot of what is said above is irrelevant. If you two want to face-off somewhere, that place is not here. And before more accusations of mala fides are thrown around, I'll quickly note that I have never, to the best of my memory, been involved in a dispute about units in sport. Indeed, I very rarely edit sport-related articles at all. I have, however, pointed out this discrepancy in the past, and I did not get a satisfactory answer as to why (for example) a probably-unused rule about milk is vitally important to MOSNUM, while this (I'd think, far more important) one about sport is omitted. If the objective is to "follow what the Times tells us to pretty closely [in sport-related articles]", as you say, then surely mentioning sport directly is only conducive to that end. Indeed, it is rather odd that we don't, if milk is culturally important enough to merit a mention. My argument is similar to yours regarding milk: the alternative is not to have a rule and not to give editors any explicit advice. Moreover, if the TSG, which we are taking to be a NPOV source for the purposes of MOSNUM, says it, we cannot simply ignore it without tacitly admitting that the UK unit recommendations are based to an extent on personal preference, which is the entire reason that MOSNUM refers to the TSG, right?
- Now that the general sanctions exist, MG or anyone else cannot simply use this rule as a means of justifying unit-flipping on thousands of articles, as you seem to suggest. Rather, the rule would give some extra clarity for other editors working on this topic (much like the engineering proposal which was eventually successful, and which was also taken directly from the TSG). Moreover, this proposed rule and the engineering rule are actually less strict than the language the Times uses ("an overwhelming preference for metric"). Just as it was unjustifiable to claim that, because old UK engineering used metric, articles about more modern engineering projects should also use it, so it is unjustifiable to claim implicitly that, because some – especially more "traditional" – UK sports use imperial, articles about all UK sports should follow this practice (including in the context of player dimensions – you seem to be making an artificial distinction between player measurements and field measurements which I don't see a justification for). What you appear to be suggesting (and I am confused by what you are suggesting, since your comment was mostly ad-hom) is not NPOV, it is contrary to much of current UK sporting practice (for example, pretty much everyone I know of who is involved in competitive weightlifting or bodybuilding talks about their weight exclusively in kilograms because that is the established practice) and it is directly contradicted by the TSG. You cannot simultaneously argue that the TSG is a reliable neutral source on UK units which needs to be respected lest we at MOSNUM are accused of having made it all up, and cherry-pick bits that you personally think are important (e.g. milk) while ignoring language like "overwhelming preference for metric" because it is inconvenient. Archon 2488 (talk) 10:34, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
- First of all I would like to acknowledge both Archon and Kahastok's comments.
- I want to thank Kahastok for pointing out that weightlifting was metric. The official rules that I linked to are metric only. This proves that he was right about weightlifting being metric. [18]
- The usage of the Rugby codes is specific to the codes. These sports have an international following, and this might help to explain why they use metric heights and weights. However, the fact that they don't include the equivalent non-metric weights is telling.
- Yes, as Kahastok has often said, I checked the heights and weights of many players five years ago and changed many (though not all of them). For the most part these edits have stood the test of time. Ironically, the general sanctions have made my old edits a WP:FAITACCOMPLI. They also prevent the same thing from happening again.
- Before and after I did my edits, others were adding the heights and weights of players with metric first (and Imperial first, too). Nothing has changed. This proposal is designed to help in the future.
- My proposal supports the predominant usage of the sports. If it is metric, that is supported; if it is not, such as in horse racing or basketball, that is supported, too.
- It is hard not to get sucked in when people use foul language and adopt a belligerent tone. However, Archon's contribution to this discussion has helped to bring it back on track. I hope that now we can now concentrate on the issues rather than the personalities. Michael Glass (talk) 11:17, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
You appear to be labouring under the misunderstanding that we do not already have an overwhelming preference for metric in sporting contexts as the TSG suggests. The problem comes when "sporting contexts" means a completely different thing in the real world (such as the TSG) compared with Wikipedia unit discussions. The TSG clearly advises metric in general for sport but prefers imperial units for personal dimensions in general. Neither MOSNUM nor the TSG requires that all sports articles use imperial. MOSNUM actually basically says that all UK sporting contexts (in the Real World meaning) use metric.
There has always been this bizarre absolutist fallacy, in UK units discussion, that the fact that the MOS prefers one set of units means either:
- That the described units must be used in all circumstances no matter what, or
- That the MOSNUM preference is entirely redundant and it's 100% down to user choice in all circumstances no matter what.
This is very rarely argued with any other part of the MOS. For every other part of the MOS, the rules are (to quote the template at the top of the page) "a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." I do not understand why people refuse to acknowledge that this applies to UK-related units just as it does the rest of the MOS.
For example, we do not have any language anywhere in the MOS at all that would allow US weightlifters' dimensions to be given in metric units. Nothing at all. Yet if you go on United States records in Olympic weightlifting the dimensions of the linked weightlifters are metric-first. There is a good topic-specific reason to go against the MOS rule, so editors have. This can apply to British articles too, if there is a good topic-specific reason, (bearing in mind - and I shouldn't have to say this but I do - that a user's preference for source-based units does not count).
I note with interest Michael's first bullet point. I never actually mentioned weightlifting before this message. I acknowledge that it is probably fully metric-first, but that can be handled within the current rules. Of course, his document does not "prove" anything - it happens to use metric units, which is a different thing - and even if it did all the contexts that it gives would already be metric-first according to even the most absolutist application of our existing rules. Kahastok talk 11:48, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
- I note Kahastok's change of tone. If he will check the link he provided, he will see that it is metric only. If this can be accommodated within the current rules, then so can putting metric heights and weights first in the top UK Rugby Union and Rugby League teams. As it is, a literal reading of MOSNUM would rule this out. What I seek is a clarification to ensure that UK sports should follow the predominant usage of the individual sports.The good reason is that this is the way that the official websites present the information. Michael Glass (talk) 12:39, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
- The good reason in the case of weightlifting is that otherwise we would be comparing weights in stones and pounds with weight categories defined in kilograms. Which makes no sense.
- You claim that there is an equivalent good topic-based reason in the rugby codes, but in fact it's just source-based units again. How many times have you pushed this now? Twenty? Thirty? Forty? On every topic. And continually rejected for all the reasons we all know. To save everyone time I shall rename the section to reflect this.
- I have reverted to the original name of the section. I believe the change of title was misleading because the proposal was only about sport. I think that changing the title like this was both provocative and disruptive. The usage of an official team or code website is not just any source. By all means argue that the title could be improved or clarified, but changing a title like this is quite high-handed and wrong.Michael Glass (talk) 14:07, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
- I am alarmed that Kahastok thought it appropriate to rename someone else's proposal to make it easier to dismiss. That was extremely rude and disruptive. While I defend his right to present his opinions here, on this subject he is not capable of arguing dispassionately at all.
- The discussion was not couched in terms of "source-based units", a concept which Kahastok introduced purely in order to weaken and dismiss MG's argument. While I am pleased to see that he has shown an appreciation of the need for nuance in the context of UK sports (for example, a literal reading of the TSG seems to contain a contradiction between personal dimensions and sports – what, then, is the style guidance for personal dimensions in a sporting context?), he has dismissed out of hand the perfectly legitimate point that there is no reason for MOSNUM to avoid mentioning this explicitly – that sport, like engineering, is a topic in which a different unit presentation will commonly be used. This is basically what the TSG does, on my reading of it. We're not talking about source-based units or Michael Glass's edit history, so it is inappropriate to bring those things up; it can only derail what should be a straightforward discussion.
- I would also note that in the past, I made precisely the same argument that Kahastok is now making, in the context of the milk rule. There is no reason why we could not just trust editors to refer to a pint-size milk bottle as "1 imperial pint (570 mL)" and a litre-size milk bottle as "1 litre (1.8 imp pt)", for the same "common sense" rules that Kahastok recognises in the context of weightlifting (and in the case of bottle sizes, MOSNUM says that the nominal values should go first, regardless, which IMHO makes the entire milk rule redundant since an imperial bottle will be given as imperial-first and a metric bottle will be given as metric-first, and nobody is actually going to be confused by this). But Kahastok argued that it made sense to give editors explicit advice, in line with what the TSG recommends, so I relented, and that remained the consensus position of MOSNUM. Now, Kahastok is apparently arguing that it does not make sense to give editors explicit advice about a topic which is much broader and more complex, and more practically important in Wikipedia, than milk. Archon 2488 (talk) 14:23, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
- The proposal is for source-based units whether you like it or not. Otherwise there is no reason to bring rugby or football into the discussion at all. So the title I put on was entirely accurate. The current title OTOH is misleading because it implies that the current advice does not follow the TSG when it does.
- The TSG is not contradictory once you realised that sports contexts are not the same as personal heights and weights. It is only in Wikipedia units disputes where people seem to think that the only units used in sports are personal measurements.
- If you want to discuss milk, that's fine. You will note that the last time milk came up I pointed out that I felt that it would be well within the spirit of the TSG to say that when dealing with consumer goods, we should be using the units of sale. That would eliminate all mention of milk, beer and cider. But as you insist we not discuss that I won't propose it again. Kahastok talk 14:32, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
- [ec]You're now just asserting things that are false. For example, since UK golf courses are typically measured in yards, that is the unit that UK golf articles would normally use, right? That is what MG's proposed rule would imply in this context. Not, as you seem to read it, "use whichever units you find in [source X]". Nor is it true that "the only units used in sports are personal measurements"; again, the wording above does not single out personal measurements as compared to the measurements of pitches or pools. There's as much reason to talk about football or rugby as weightlifting or basketball, since the proposal covers all sports; this is not evidence that the proposal amounts to "source-based units". Your characterisations simply do not reflect what the proposal says, and renaming the section to enforce your dubious reading of the proposed rule is extremely arrogant, bordering on bullying.
- When you say "sports contexts are not the same as personal heights and weights", you've lost me. That is true in the most literal sense, but not a useful thing to say in the context of sports players. You might as well say "sports contexts are not the same as the lengths of fields", which is also literally true, but an absurd thing to say in the context of a football field. My point was that, on a literal reading, the TSG statements to use imperial for people's measurements, and to use metric for sports, clearly directly contradict one another in the case of sportspeople's measurements. It is not true that the intersection of those two categories is empty, which is (on my reading) the only way that what you say above ("TSG is not contradictory...") could be correct. The proposal above is a simple piece of advice to allow topic-specific (but not source-based) resolutions of this contradiction. Exactly like the engineering rule, which has been there for three years without major incident.
- I have no idea why you think I'm insisting that we must not discuss milk/beer/cider; we can if you really want to (which I doubt), but it is simply not what this discussion is about. But I think the example is illustrative: you said that it made sense to have a rule for those (fairly obscure) circumstances where bottled milk or draught beer/cider are being discussed on Wikipedia, in part because the TSG explicitly mentions it. Now the TSG explicitly mentions sport as well, but you think there is no reason to mention it in MOSNUM, or perhaps even a good reason not to mention it in MOSNUM. But this is something you need to present an argument for, which does not involve misrepresenting other editors' arguments. Archon 2488 (talk) 15:01, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
- You can tell the proposal is for source-based units because the OP has said that it is for source-based units. In fact the entire basis for the proposal was that units should be based on the sources of the OP's choice. Hence going on about rugby websites and the Premier League website. If it hadn't been a proposal for source-based units, the case made would have been very different.
- Across the board, the standard is that if we are to deviate the rule, there has to be a good article- or topic-specific reason to do so. I do not understand why people seem to think it does not apply in this one area. If we do not need an special extra exception for US-based sports articles, we do not need a special extra exception for UK-based sports articles. Of course, the fact that any particular source happens to use one system is not a good reason, as that is applying a completely different rule such as to subvert the MOS.
- The TSG explicitly mentions sport in passing. We don't, because we don't need to. We could qualify "the primary units for most quantities are metric or other internationally used units" by saying "in scientific, engineering and sporting contexts", but that would rather imply that other contexts that are currently metric-first should not necessarily be metric-first. Which would rather miss the point - they should.
- But that is a different question from personal heights and weights. You take my quote on this completely out of context - making you a fine one to talk about "misrepresenting other editors' arguments"! Sporting measurement should not be taken to mean personal heights and weights, but note where this started - with the OP basing his entire case around the units used to measure sportspeople's heights and weights. In this case, personal height and weight is precisely what was meant. I see no contradiction between saying that as a rule sporting contexts should generally be metric-first, but personal heights and weights imperial-first. Kahastok talk 16:56, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
- I wasn't trying to take anything you said out of context. It's a simple observation that either there is a latent contradiction between those two statements ("sporting contexts should generally be metric-first, but personal heights and weights imperial-first") in the specific case of personal heights and weights of sportspeople, or there is something hiding in the term "generally" which resolves this apparent contradiction. But you've not said explicitly what it is. This rule, even if you think it is flawed (and the argument should be taken on its merits rather than the name of its proponent) does not say anything about source-based units, however much you believe it does (and MG did not use that language, so it is not fair to attribute to him – or could we please have a diff for that quote?). However, it is instructive to point out (without recommending that we follow any of them specifically, i.e. source-based units) that reliable sources covering several sports are not overwhelmingly imperial-first or imperial-only, as your case seems to assume. Quite the contrary. If you are going to argue for the counter-intuitive position that the length of a football field is a sport-related measurement, but a player's weight is not, then a) that is not in the TSG; b) it is not in MOSNUM; c) there is AFAIK no consensus for it. So it is not something you can just assert and expect everyone to accept; you need to justify it.
- If the TSG says the preference for metric is "overwhelming" in a sporting context, and MOSNUM is based on the TSG, then there is no good reason why we should not incorporate that language directly into MOSNUM. That would be an entirely NPOV thing to do, which you are now opposing on the grounds (I surmise, correct me if I am wrong) that it is not NPOV. Why, as I have asked repeatedly above, is this case any different from what the TSG says about milk or engineering? In the case of engineering, recall, there were a few cases of confusion caused by the odd omission of the TSG engineering rule from MOSNUM. Including it explicitly (even if in a watered-down format) helped to resolve that confusion. If you are claiming that you have a uniquely authoritative interpretation of what the TSG "really means", which is not written explicitly in the TSG, then that is not compatible with NPOV.
- What I'd ask from you, if I may, is a strengthened version of MG's argument, which avoids what you perceive to be the issue of source-based units. You have said above that "[i]f it hadn't been a proposal for source-based units, the case made would have been very different", which suggests that such a proposal would be possible, and it leads me to wonder what such a proposal would look like. Moreover, trying to strengthen other people's arguments is more constructive than trying to weaken them. Archon 2488 (talk) 10:15, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not quite sure why I should be arguing for a text that I don't think the guideline needs. We don't need it for US sportspeople, we don't need it for British sportspeople.
- It's quite clear that this was about source-based units. There is no objective reason to assume in most cases that players' heights and weights should be even considered to be counted within "sporting contexts" at all. No reason to assume that they'll be any different from units used in society as whole. Why would they be? But no, the OP himself declared clearly and explicitly that the fact that his preferred source used metric units for heights and weights of players meant that we should use metric units in those circumstances. Whether you like or not, that is a call for source-based units.
- Units in sporting contexts - to people outside Wikipedia units disputes - means the length of the throw or the length of the course, the height of the goalposts or the height of the jump, the weight of the ball or the weight of the boat. Those are for the most part already metric-first by default just as per TSG. Only if there are actually height and weight categories, like in martial arts or weightlifting, does personal weight come into it. And they can be handled for Brits just as they are for Americans. No need for a new rule.
- My main concern isn't NPOV. NPOV is important here - we can't neutrally push metric faster than it comes in IRL - but that's the starting point, that's why we use the TSG. My concerns are twofold. First is that it will be used to push source-based units as already discussed. Second, that we end up with a long list of contexts in which we use metric, and that ultimately dilutes our advice in general. We don't need to list things that are metric because everything is metric, except in a few circumstances and the most prominent and general exceptions are listed. If we add a list of particularly metric or especially metric contexts, then we undermine the general rule for metric-first.
- You routinely hear hill heights given in feet in modern Britain. We currently give no explicit advice on the context, which means we default to metric. If hill height is not in the especially-metric category (and the TSG implies that the change is recent), that implies that it is less important for hill heights to be in metres, or even that we're not advising either way. What about the weight of a rock. We currently give no explicit advice, which means we default to metric. If the weight of rocks is not in the especially-metric category (and it isn't mentioned in the TSG), that implies that it is less important that it be in metric units and may imply that we're not advising that it be in metric units at all. The especially-metric category ends up with a long list that isn't exhaustive (because it never will be) and anything that isn't in it is implied not to be metric-first. The default should be metric-first in all contexts, other than those listed, unless there's a good reason article- or topic-specific reason for it not to be.
- You keep bringing up milk. You were the one who insisted that this be a sports discussion and told me that I was being "extremely arrogant, bordering on bullying" to suggest otherwise. You're right that I don't want a massive discussion about milk, for the same reason I didn't want this discussion, because it'll just be a time sink and probably won't achieve anything. You've heard what I would do with the milk point, you weren't interested. Fine. But don't then complain that I'm advocating the current wording. I'm not. Kahastok talk 21:17, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
- What I called "arrogant and bullying" was renaming the section to enforce your reading of it, not merely suggesting that it was not a discussion about sports (which I believe it was intended to be, per MG's original proposal).
- The point of presenting a stronger argument is not that you are actually advocating it; it's to show that you can present an argument for a position that you disagree with in a way that a proponent of that position would recognise, rather than seeing it as a trivialisation of the argument (a strawman) constructed to dismiss it. Since you said above that a proposal written without "source-based units" in mind would look different, it's natural to wonder what exactly it would look like.
- I'm curious about your idea of "pushing" metric. Since a lot of UK publications, like the Economist or New Scientist (and even, when it's in the mood, the Guardian) predominantly use metric (including distances in kilometres rather than miles and furlongs and chains, i.e. exactly the sorts of contexts that you seem to have so many objections to), do you regard them as unreasonably biased? Would it be dishonest of them to claim impartiality, because they prefer to use measures that make a lot more sense to most people who do not have fond memories of Queen Victoria and pink world maps? This archaic cant gets more unjustifiable with every passing year. Bringing Wikipedia into the twenty-first century is not "pushing" anything except reality, and I retain my opinion that this anti-metric humbug brings Wikipedia into disrepute. I could just as well say that opposing metric is "pushing" a socially acceptable form of scientific illiteracy.
- But I'm not going to pretend that this will change anything. The GS and the current pointless MOSNUM muddle will ensure that UK articles remain a confusing jumble of different styles. And yes, since you opposed getting rid of the trivial and silly milk rule, you de facto supported retaining it. Archon 2488 (talk) 10:24, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
- The fact that you support metrication is not good reason for Wikipedia to apply metrication faster than does the public at large. Wikipedia is an encyclopædia, not a campaigning organisation, and that applies even if you happen to believe in the cause you wish Wikipedia to campaign for.
- When we discuss it, your argument always boils down to this. You like the metric system. I like the metric system as well. I think Brits should use it more. But we don't. We have to respect that fact, whether we like it or not. Most people in Britain giving a distance will do it in miles over kilometres. Most people in Britain will give a personal weight in stones and not kilos. You say "[t]his archaic cant [imperial units] gets more unjustifiable with every passing year", but if you listen to the political mood music, the direction discussed is for moving the other way, from metric to imperial, not the other way around. You dismiss people who prefer imperial as those who "have fond memories of Queen Victoria and pink world maps" - which was precisely the sort of language used to dismiss the Brexiteers. They just won a referendum. I would suggest that there are probably quite a lot more people with the sort of attitudes that you so obviously disdain than you think. We have to be an encyclopædia for those people as well as those of us who take the other view.
- What we have in the Times - the UK's newspaper of record - is a style guide that attempts to do what we intend to do. It attempts to reflect real British usage in a few simple and easy-to-follow rules. And y'know what? When we actually take it to other UK-specific fora and ask British posters, the current rules tend to get supported. Several times we've had editors trying to push us in one direction or other, who have come unstuck when they appealed to a silent majority for their position that didn't exist. That's generally a good sign that we're doing it right.
- Don't forget about WP:GS/UKU. The sudden 'growth' of a such a cancer as this discussion has me taken aback. RGloucester — ☎ 14:50, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
- Indeed, it is useful to point out that the GS give us a level of assurance against "gaming" or edit-warring, which should in principle allow us to have a slightly more good-faith discussion about such topics than usual (and I realise that this sounds extremely naive). For my part, I have little direct interest in sports articles, but I do think it makes sense to have a guideline for editors to refer to, especially when the NPOV reliable source to which MOSNUM refers explicitly includes such a guideline. Archon 2488 (talk) 15:06, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
Point taken about the walls of text, EEng! That's why I have inserted a subheading below.
Back to the actual wording
The present wording says:
- the primary units for personal height and weight are feet/inches and stones/pounds;
This policy is honoured more in the breach than in the observance in the UK sporting context.
The proposed wording modifies the general policy only in the case of UK sporting articles:
- *In UK sporting articles, the primary units should generally follow the predominant usage of the sport.
Could I just ask people what they think of the actual wording.
- Could the proposed wording be improved?
- Do you support or oppose the proposed wording?
I think if we concentrate on the wording it might not take a huge wall of text to decide YES or NO, or to revise it. Michael Glass (talk) 23:42, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose this is your usual attempt at metricate everything regardless the existing wording should stand. Keith D (talk) 00:07, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
- [Keith, in my proposal, the existing wording does stand. The proposal doesn't attempt to metricate everything, nor does it attempt to metricate anything that isn't metric already.] Michael Glass (talk) 12:55, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose per Keith D and per my comments above. For all the objections to what Keith D says, it is obvious from Michael's comments - both under this heading and the previous - that Keith D's interpretation is entirely accurate. Kahastok talk 18:22, 18 October 2016 (UTC)