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*::::Most newspapers have an [[editorial board]] that publishes opinions and even endorses political candidates in elections. This does not discredit their news reporting though, because the editorial board is separate from its news reporting. That seems to be the case here with the Signpost, but the issue is they just haven't made that distinction clear enough. ––[[User:FormalDude|<span style="color: #0151D2; font-family: Microsoft Sans Serif; letter-spacing: -.3px;">'''Formal'''{{color|black|'''Dude'''}}</span>]] <span style="border-radius:7em;padding:2.5px 3.5px;background:#005bed;font-size:76%">[[User talk:FormalDude|<span style="color:#FFF">'''talk'''</span>]]</span> 09:27, 28 March 2022 (UTC) |
*::::Most newspapers have an [[editorial board]] that publishes opinions and even endorses political candidates in elections. This does not discredit their news reporting though, because the editorial board is separate from its news reporting. That seems to be the case here with the Signpost, but the issue is they just haven't made that distinction clear enough. ––[[User:FormalDude|<span style="color: #0151D2; font-family: Microsoft Sans Serif; letter-spacing: -.3px;">'''Formal'''{{color|black|'''Dude'''}}</span>]] <span style="border-radius:7em;padding:2.5px 3.5px;background:#005bed;font-size:76%">[[User talk:FormalDude|<span style="color:#FFF">'''talk'''</span>]]</span> 09:27, 28 March 2022 (UTC) |
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*:::::Indeed, and this raises yet more questions. Newspapers often hold a particular viewpoint, based on certain principles, which their editorials reflect. I do not see what principle of the Signpost is expressed through this editorial, and as I have mentioned it seems to conflict with their existing principles as written. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 09:35, 28 March 2022 (UTC) |
*:::::Indeed, and this raises yet more questions. Newspapers often hold a particular viewpoint, based on certain principles, which their editorials reflect. I do not see what principle of the Signpost is expressed through this editorial, and as I have mentioned it seems to conflict with their existing principles as written. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 09:35, 28 March 2022 (UTC) |
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*:::@[[User:A. C. Santacruz|A. C. Santacruz]]: thanks for the very civil tenor of that reply. I do appreciate it. |
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*:::I think that there may be merit in your description of the community's view to @{{u|EpicPupper}}'s op-ed as being {{tq|neutral enough to not be an issue in the long term|q=y}}. I think that's one possibly viable reading of the community's assessment. |
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*:::However, I regard any such of assessment the article as utterly absurd: that piece is blatantly and unequivocally partisan. AFAICS, there is not a microscopic shred of neutrality in declaring that you stand by one party to a conflict, and I don't care if a hundred million editors on winged horses tell me otherwise: I do not see any trace of neutrality there. |
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*:::I see a lot more mileage in your thoughtful remarks about the nature of ''The Signpost''., and its low participation. I note for example that the very nice editor who wrote this op-ed has been on en.wp for less than two years, so is far from being one of our more experienced editors. I can't help wondering if greater experience would have led to more caution. [[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="font-variant:small-caps"><span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl</span>]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 10:06, 28 March 2022 (UTC) |
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*NPOV doesn't apply to the Signpost, as it's not in article space. It's entitled to have editorials and opinion pieces, as long as they are identifiable as such. Storm, teacup, etc. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle|talk]]) 09:04, 28 March 2022 (UTC) |
*NPOV doesn't apply to the Signpost, as it's not in article space. It's entitled to have editorials and opinion pieces, as long as they are identifiable as such. Storm, teacup, etc. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle|talk]]) 09:04, 28 March 2022 (UTC) |
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*This is so overblown that it's kind of hilarious. {{u|Sdkb}} said it best ''10 hours ago'': just amend the post to explicitly state on the very top that (1) Signpost is an unofficial editorial or whatever and (2) "emphasizing that [Wikipedia] remains neutral in conflicts". [[User:Curbon7|Curbon7]] ([[User talk:Curbon7|talk]]) 09:15, 28 March 2022 (UTC) |
*This is so overblown that it's kind of hilarious. {{u|Sdkb}} said it best ''10 hours ago'': just amend the post to explicitly state on the very top that (1) Signpost is an unofficial editorial or whatever and (2) "emphasizing that [Wikipedia] remains neutral in conflicts". [[User:Curbon7|Curbon7]] ([[User talk:Curbon7|talk]]) 09:15, 28 March 2022 (UTC) |
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User Page Privacy Concerns
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I've been a bit hesitant to bring this up since it might exacerbate the issue I'm having, but when I first made my user page on Wikipedia in 2015, I included a lot of personal information about myself. Although I have long since removed the info from my user page, it still shows up in my user page history.
I was wondering if an admin could remove the earlier revisions containing my personal info, as I do have a lot of privacy concerns regarding this. Thanks!
--Dtale1984 (talk) 16:53, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- Did this, although it didn't contain a lot of private information IMO and I am hesitant to do a log redaction here. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:58, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
Join the Community Resilience and Sustainability Conversation Hour with Maggie Dennis
- You can find this message translated into additional languages on Meta-wiki.
The Community Resilience and Sustainability team at the Wikimedia Foundation is hosting a conversation hour led by its Vice President Maggie Dennis.
Topics within scope for this call include Movement Strategy, Board Governance, Trust and Safety, the Universal Code of Conduct, Community Development, and Human Rights. Come with your questions and feedback, and let's talk! You can also send us your questions in advance.
The meeting will be on 24 March 2022 at 15:00 UTC (check your local time).
You can read details on Meta-wiki. Xeno (WMF) (talk) 02:48, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
- This is starting in 5 minutes and can be viewed live or later on YouTube. Xeno (WMF) (talk) 14:54, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
Definition of "municipality"
Many editors, myself included, have spent a lot of time trying to make consistent the articles listing the cities, towns, villages, etc. of every state in the country (and of various other political entities around the world). One question has come up several times: how do we define "municipality"? We've settled on Lists of municipalities as a catch-all so we don't end up with separate lists for villages and cities in a state where the only legal difference is an arbitrary population cutoff. However, to that end we've been using "municipality" to mean "incorporated municipality", so as to exclude (and list separately) CDPs, civil townships, and the like. There seems to be a lot of agreement that this is good: we should list incorporated cities, towns, and villages, etc. separately from unincorporated CDPs and townships.
However, another possible definition of "municipality" is "a single administrative division having corporate status and powers of self-government or jurisdiction". One example of where this gets fuzzy is Michigan: Michigan only has two kinds of incorporated municipalities – cities and villages – but its unincorporated townships do have powers of self-government, and its unincorporated charter townships have even more self-government or jurisdiction. So should these be listed in a List of municipalities in Michigan? In other cases (see Wisconsin and South Dakota, both of which are still awaiting a merge) there is a consensus not to include civil townships, even if they have limited self-government.
As a further example, Vermont has 5 unincorporated towns, which are otherwise equivalent to the rest of the state's towns. Should these five towns be excluded from the list of municipalities because they aren't incorporated? If so, then shouldn't Michigan's townships be excluded from their list of municipalities? Is consistency even that important? Dylanvt (talk) 02:57, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
- Vermont's 5 unincorporated towns had their incorporation revoked by the state (for good reason, e.g. Glastenbury, Vermont has all of 9 residents). Townships generally shouldn't be included, I'd think, although I see Michigan has lumped together multiple survey townships into an organized township. Have you considered a population criterion, e.g. incorporated and having at least 2,000 residents (or 5,000, or 1,000, or 10,000, or ...)? --R. S. Shaw (talk) 03:16, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- The idea behind these articles is to include all "municipalities" (in common language, towns and cities and villages etc.) in one place, because it's much more convenient to have them all in one place than in two or three separate articles. A cutoff wouldn't be great because some people may be looking for the smallest, rather than the largest, cities or towns in a state. There's just some grey area in several states that make 100% consistency difficult. But I don't know how much we should care about 100% consistency. Dylanvt (talk) 15:32, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
Can someone authorized to close a "withdraw" request to delete a WP article
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Here [1] is the withdrawn Wikipedia page deletion request. Please, close this request. Thank you - --Ooligan (talk) 00:02, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
Talk page button
What happened to our talk page button? It displays the text ‘Fa tiban ka ho’! I hope someone fixes this. ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 10:56, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Inqilābī this sounds like a bad translation in the upstream interface translation files; they usually get updated every couple of weeks. If you use the "en - English" language setting in your preferences at Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-personal you should not see bad translations here. — xaosflux Talk 11:07, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- I use en-GB in my preferences. Anyway, am I the only one who sees a different translation? ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 11:10, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- My initial thoughts were the same as User:Xaosflux's, but I use en-GB and have seen no problem. Can browser language settings influence this? I am using Firefox 98.0.1, also with en-GB. Phil Bridger (talk) 11:14, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- It might be worth posting a link to this discussion at WP:VPT, as it seems to be a technical issue. Phil Bridger (talk) 11:18, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Inqilābī and Phil Bridger: no need to put on VPT, there is nothing we can do about this here on the English Wikipedia - it has to be fixed on translatewiki, then you have to wait for any updates to sync to mediawiki and then back to us. They usually fix those on translatewiki pretty quick, then there is about a 10 day lead time. We discourage the use of en-GB here, for many reasons - this being one of them - if you insist on using en-GB, en-CA, or other en-XX variants you should expect oddities. If something extremely vulgar or severely disruptive is in one of these, please let us know at WP:IANB or WP:AN and we can put in temporary manual overrides - but we are not going to maintain those variants in general (we had an RfC about that last year I think). Best regards, — xaosflux Talk 15:01, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Xaosflux: Thanks for the tip! I edited my preferences to use en and now I see the usual text. ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 15:09, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- And thanks from me, as I was puzzled by this issue even though I wasn't suffering from it. I have no chauvinistic attachment to "en-GB", so have also changed my preference to "en". Phil Bridger (talk) 15:17, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Inqilābī and Phil Bridger: no need to put on VPT, there is nothing we can do about this here on the English Wikipedia - it has to be fixed on translatewiki, then you have to wait for any updates to sync to mediawiki and then back to us. They usually fix those on translatewiki pretty quick, then there is about a 10 day lead time. We discourage the use of en-GB here, for many reasons - this being one of them - if you insist on using en-GB, en-CA, or other en-XX variants you should expect oddities. If something extremely vulgar or severely disruptive is in one of these, please let us know at WP:IANB or WP:AN and we can put in temporary manual overrides - but we are not going to maintain those variants in general (we had an RfC about that last year I think). Best regards, — xaosflux Talk 15:01, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- I use en-GB in my preferences. Anyway, am I the only one who sees a different translation? ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 11:10, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- Inqilābī and Phil Bridger good to hear! For the most part en-XX variant's in the interface are not really, we've been looking for some technical solutions for a long time to avoid this - but it requires a lot of upstream work. Changing your preference will have no impact at all on the text of articles or other content pages, and you are welcome to edit articles in whatever dialect is appropriate! Best regards — xaosflux Talk 17:13, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- en-GB is known to suck. That's really all there is to it. casualdejekyll 12:53, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
Quarterly Community Safety survey
Apologies for cross-posting this, I wanted to make sure that as many people as possible knew this was going to happen, so people aren't surprised when it appears.
Starting the week of 28 March 2022, the Wikimedia Foundation will conduct a quarterly anonymous survey about safety perceptions among the English Wikipedia community members.
This survey responds to a Universal Code of Conduct community recommendation, and we encourage you to participate.
There are more details about the survey on the project page, and you can also leave comments.
Best regards, Community Safety Survey team –– STei (WMF) (talk) 21:25, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. 2601:647:5800:1A1F:2450:82EA:FC8A:4EA1 (talk) 23:54, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
“Sexual assault allegations vanished from potential Cori Bush challenger’s Wikipedia page”
Just wondering if any of you have seen this new front page article, it’s pretty concerning. https://theintercept.com/2022/03/21/missouri-senator-steven-roberts-wikipedia/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Perfecnot (talk • contribs) 12:24, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- And this is exactly the sort of thing we'd never be able to catch once the WMF enables IP masking and adopts the UCoC (which prohibits discussing contributors' place of employment). --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 14:40, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
Targeting of Talk:Speech synthesis
Any conjectures on why Talk:Speech synthesis receives a particularly large number of drive-by additions of new sections, added by single-edit IP users, that consist of gibberish or sentence fragments in Indonesian or both? I'm particularly intrigued by the ones (in Indonesian) that translate to "salaam aleikum to all bus passengers from johor bahru to malacca will be departing soon we from larkin sentral would like to wish you a happy hari raya"[2], "Ayang beautiful there is a whatsapp from my handsome"[3], "Moskona you love but how come you're so naughty"[4], "Hi adam there's a whatsapp message coming in"[5], and "the child has a whatsapp entry from the girl"[6], covering a span of more than two months. Largoplazo (talk) 16:36, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- There could be several reasons. I believe this belongs in VPT, perhaps tagged as a security issue, as one reason could be somebody is testing the waters for wider-scale disruption, but not necessarily targeting Wikipedia exclusively. 172.254.222.178 (talk) 00:52, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
- I was figuring there could be a bigger motive behind it, whether it's sending coded messages or something else, but I chose Miscellaneous because I wasn't sure of a more suitable forum. Largoplazo (talk) 01:27, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
- Follow-up: The talk page has been semi-protected. Largoplazo (talk) 01:46, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
- Those messages got me, they are a form of love-scam messages, that circulate in WhatsApp and other media. Those IP addrreses are from the spammers. Those are nothing but a disgusting attempt of spamming, not coded messages or something else. Report them and make the talk pages semi-protected. VScode fanboy (talk) 07:08, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
- Could be, but it may not. It could be something else masquerading as (relatively) harmless spamming. One example would be to prompt the defending entity into restricting access, which is a form of voluntary denial of service. Whether that is necessary or not, it is like doing the attackers' job for them. Or it could be a probe or test for something else. And of course it could be what it seems to be. 50.75.226.250 (talk) 14:59, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
Question for a logo in Ukraine
On this page I discovered a logo combined the coat of arms of Ukraine and four fleurs-de-lis, who know about that? --Great Brightstar (talk) 17:28, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- It is the logo of the Foreign Intelligence Service of Ukraine. --Jayron32 17:45, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
Opinions on the phenomenon some might call RfC-itis?
See heading. MarshallKe (talk) 00:07, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
- Vexing, when it happens in situations where common sense would have served just as well, or better. Also when it involves issues affecting a minority of editors, editors already being an insignificantly small minority of daily users. 172.254.222.178 (talk) 00:59, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
- Could you make a definition? As it currently stands it just seems like a vague negative term. 2601:647:5800:1A1F:4CAE:9DE2:30BC:86D9 (talk) 22:19, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
- Not sure if this meets a definition, but it describes the symptoms. An editor, sometimes experienced, sometimes not, opens an RfC seemingly at odds with the expectations of other editors that were already present on the article's talk page. The editor filing usually has ignored or is unaware of WP:RFCBEFORE and WP:RFCNOT. Particularly egregious examples may have poorly worded, non-neutral questions. Depending on how contentious the underlying topic is, such an RfC will very likely have examples of WP:BLUDGEON behaviour. If editors are truly lucky, some sort of useful consensus can be achieved through this, though getting to it can be tedious. Sideswipe9th (talk) 04:06, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
- Might be worth making an essay about. By the way, I started my own RFC. See above. 2601:647:5800:1A1F:25E9:7819:F430:D78 (talk) 23:07, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
- Not sure if this meets a definition, but it describes the symptoms. An editor, sometimes experienced, sometimes not, opens an RfC seemingly at odds with the expectations of other editors that were already present on the article's talk page. The editor filing usually has ignored or is unaware of WP:RFCBEFORE and WP:RFCNOT. Particularly egregious examples may have poorly worded, non-neutral questions. Depending on how contentious the underlying topic is, such an RfC will very likely have examples of WP:BLUDGEON behaviour. If editors are truly lucky, some sort of useful consensus can be achieved through this, though getting to it can be tedious. Sideswipe9th (talk) 04:06, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
- Could you make a definition? As it currently stands it just seems like a vague negative term. 2601:647:5800:1A1F:4CAE:9DE2:30BC:86D9 (talk) 22:19, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
In reading about Ursula von der Leyen, I did a double-take on finding a linked article named Hannover Medical School. "Hannover" is the German spelling of the city known in English as "Hanover". Does it make any sense for the English language WP to name an article partly in German and partly in English? This would be like naming an article Bayerisch football derbies or whatever, in the many articles about Bavarian entities.
The opening of the article says "The Hannover Medical School (German: Medizinische Hochschule Hannover ... is a university medical centre in the city of Hanover, in Germany, part of a regional medical network," and thereafter in the text the German spelling Hannover is consistently used. The talk page contains only one untitled, undated and unsigned [2007, anon IP] entry; and most edits to the article are made by either IPs or bots, with no named active user having made more than a single edit. Thus there's really no one to ask or discuss the question with.
I try to limit my own edits mostly to spelling, grammar, and adding links where it seems useful, or occasionally rephrasing a confusing sentence. In any event I'm not about to repeat my tyro mistake of moving an article - although if someone else agrees and moves it from "Hannover" to "Hanover", I would happily change the spellings in the text. Milkunderwood (talk) 01:35, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
- This does seem to be the version of the name used in English-language German sources, although they more commonly use just "MHH" - see https://www.hannover.de/en/Science-Education/Hannover-Science-Initiative/Universities/Hannover-Medical-School and https://www.uni-hannover.de/en/forschung/strategische-kooperationen/mhh/ as examples. As long as we have a redirect from Hanover Medical School, which we do, I think all is well. PamD 12:56, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
- I've come across a similar problem with another German institution where our title is not a literal translation into English but is the English-language version used by the institution itself, but can't remember where it was. I've added a note to the article to explain the title. PamD 13:16, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks very much, Pam; your thoughtful edits entirely solve the issue. Milkunderwood (talk) 21:09, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
- I've come across a similar problem with another German institution where our title is not a literal translation into English but is the English-language version used by the institution itself, but can't remember where it was. I've added a note to the article to explain the title. PamD 13:16, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
Desktop Improvements: project update and invitation to our office hours
Hey, if you don't watch the technical section you may accidentally ignore an important message you perhaps would prefer not to ignore, so this is like a redirect within the VP to increase the visibility.
I'm writing on behalf of a Wikimedia Foundation team working on the new desktop interface. We're building the last features now. In a few months, we'll complete the project. We've prepared the last (fourth) prototype with improvements to the sidebar and page tools menu (aka More menu). This prototype is for you to check out and share feedback. On Tuesday, March 29, 19:00 18:00 UTC, we're having a meeting for anyone interested in the project. Read more on VP (technical) and see you on Tuesday. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 02:18, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for the heads-up. I'm always leery of interface changes. I have used five different desktop monitors, no two of which are the same dimensions horizontally or vertically; and I still now use two of these, which are different sizes and shapes. So far I have not experienced any difficulty with Wikipedia displaying properly on any of these monitors, and I hope your team will ensure that such flexibility will continue. Some other websites appear to be locked into a specific display shape, causing very annoying problems. Milkunderwood (talk) 10:52, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks @Milkunderwood for this comment. Would you be able to join the office hours and talk with us about that? SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 01:17, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
Requesting inputs
Greetings,
Adequate and nuanced overview for even non– Muslim audience is expected out of the articles Muslims and Muslim world. Whether the articles are achieving that purpose adequately? Requesting and expecting proactive participation in providing inputs from non–Muslim audience too along with Muslim users.
Since the article Muslim world is tagged various improvements it can not be submitted to formal review process still I feel the article deserves more inputs for content improvement.
Requesting your visit to the articles
- Muslims and
- Muslim world
- and provide your inputs @
Thanks
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 06:28, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
Feminism and Folklore 2022 ends soon
Feminism and Folklore 2022 which is an international writing contest organized at Wikipedia ends soon that is on 31 March 2022 11:59 UTC. This is the last chance of the year to write about feminism, women biographies and gender-focused topics such as folk festivals, folk dances, folk music, folk activities, folk games, folk cuisine, folk wear, fairy tales, folk plays, folk arts, folk religion, mythology, folk artists, folk dancers, folk singers, folk musicians, folk game athletes, women in mythology, women warriors in folklore, witches and witch hunting, fairy tales and more
Keep an eye on the project page for declaration of Winners.
We look forward for your immense co-operation.
Thanks Wiki Loves Folklore international Team MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 14:28, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
Community discussion regarding the Signpost
In a recent ANI thread, users disagreed on various issues related to the community magazine here on wiki. In light of this, various questions arise which I believe it would be beneficial for both the Signpost team, the community, and how the Signpost is portrayed in media for us to answer. Namely, these are:
- What exactly is the role and/or purpose of the Signpost within Wikipedia?
- What standards and policies is it expected to follow, especially regarding neutrality and opinions?
- Are the current editorial policies and procedures of the Signpost adequate?
General comments on how to improve the signpost or its strengths are also welcome. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 23:46, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- I think a discussion like this is much wider than the Signpost and should apply to any editorial made by any editor or group of editors. ✨ Ed talk! ✨ 23:52, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- I think it is wider than that; if it is inappropriate for an editorial, it would be inappropriate for a user to express in general. BilledMammal (talk) 23:57, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- Ed6767 I think discussion should be kept constrained to the Signpost as much as possible for there to be any practical consensus. There are particular nuances relevant to the Signpost's unique position within the wikipedia community that also merit exploring and would be left to the side in such a general discussion, but if editors feel as a result of this discussion that a more broad conversation should be had I think that would be worth undertaking as a second step. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 00:01, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- The signpost is just some users making their own newspaper. Who cares? Anyone can make their own "don't mention anything outside of Wikipedia" newspaper, and compete. A signpost article is no different than a statement on a userpage or a userbox. How about we just agree to not care unless it's polemic or actually disruptive. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:02, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- "We stand with X" is polemic, for any value of X. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:03, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- I see that this discussion was CENT-listed, and I have to say, I don't think it will be productive. The questions it asks are very broad and rather vague, so it won't help to have a ton of comment because there's nothing specific to !vote on. Further, it'd be better to hold this at the Signpost newsroom rather than here (or, worse, at ANI).
- For what it's worth, as a Signpost contributor and a journalist, I think it was very misguided for the paper to publish an editorial titled "We stand in solidarity with Ukraine". I noticed it in draft form and thought to myself that it would likely be received poorly—my apologies to EpicPupper that I did not speak up before it went to press. I think appending a note to the piece retracting it or emphasizing that we remain neutral in conflicts would be an appropriate resolution; deletion, however, is not called for. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 00:04, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Sdkb's last sentence provides a good way forward.
- I think that retraction would be best.However, if the article is not retracted, then the headline should be replaced with something neutral. Otherwise any statement of neutrality would be absurdly self-contradictory. (Banner "I back X" with small print "I'm neutral"). BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:17, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
Two points:
- On real-world issues, the Signpost should uphold NPOV, just as it applies to articles. Otherwise the Signpost becomes a soapbox, as it did in this case, contrary to WP:SOAPBOX.
- The Signpost appears to have had no policy or procedure for assessing whether to take an editorial stance, leading to 4 editors involved in this article speaking for the whole team on a silence=consent process. (At ANI, the article's author @EpicPupper has been commendably civil and helpful in describing the process involved. Thanks, Eric)
I recommend that for any article purporting to speak on behalf of the whole team, the Signpost should require explicit consent of the whole team. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)
- I would like BHG (speaking as the editor who is most vehement about this issue, though not the starter of this discussion) to express which other BLUELINKS should apply to the Signpost or other non-article spaces. NPOV is explicitly about article content; but if we assume it should also apply to non-article content, does WP:OR and WP:V also apply? Is there something different about the Signpost than, say, this non-article page we are on right now, that demands that the Signpost say nothing non-neutral (or original research, or non-verifiable, etc.) but allows editors to talk all day at the Village Pump without citing their statements? --PresN 00:40, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- @PresN: I see no merit in conflating an editorial statement by the community newsletter with a discussion between editors. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:32, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Editors talk all day at the Village Pump without citing their statements.[citation needed][disputed ][improper synthesis?] XOR'easter (talk) 06:38, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
To answer this discussion's question, however (unlike the other 2 venues this conversation is taking place in...):
- The role is to be a newspaper. Its the opinions and statements of a handful of editors.
- It must follow the standards that all non-article discussions and opinions are held to—NPOV has never been one of them, any more than it applies to user talk pages
- Haha, funny... perhaps I'm misremembering the last years and years of the Signpost begging for editors to help out in both a contributing and managing role, and getting little response. I'm presuming no one here is volunteering to be the live-in censor. --PresN 00:40, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- The Signpost is not in mainspace and should not be held to those standards. NPOV does not apply here. casualdejekyll 01:27, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- I honestly don't understand what the point of this or why this was added to WP:CENT. I'd suggest we close this down, close the ANI thread and count to ten. Calidum 01:43, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Y'know I had a whole response written out about editorial independence and norms for POV content outside mainspace, but then I was reminded of this remark from The Blade of the Northern Lights:
A number of users have that quote on their userpages, but I wonder how many remember the context in which TBotNL said that. I do, because I happen to have started the thread he said it in, concerning some projectspace drama du jour. TBotNL, who had been on a vacation from projectspace to focus exclusively on the article Genie (feral child), spoke in the context of what he'd learned from that experience, and how it put our petty squabbles in perspective. Well, I've been working lately on List of journalists killed during the Russo-Ukrainian War—five civilian journalists killed in the line of duty since the full-scale invasion began, two Ukrainian, three international; plus two Ukrainian journalists killed going about their daily lives. And so nine years after TBotNL said that to me, I think I now get exactly what he meant. None of this arguing goes anywhere. It's just a wild goose chase entirely independent of actually improving this encyclopedia. This one fucking Signpost editorial is now the subject of an MfD, DRV, ANI, VPM, and Signpost talk thread, and people all seem more than happy to chip in and argue. Meanwhile Template:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has multiple redlinks on it, and List of people and organizations sanctioned during the Russo-Ukrainian War, which I recently pared down to a readable condition, still needs a massive update to be brought in line with International sanctions during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Spending five minutes on improving any article in that navbox will do much more good for the world than any projectspace argument will, and hopefully will"Our work together here should be our armor, not some sharp, angry, burning sword. I would strongly recommend that everyone here find an article to work on for a while; not the cliche "random article", but something that gives you a nice tug at the heartstrings. It feels great to be out there doing work on something you genuinely care about, and I assure you it'll help you regain the sense of why you're here."
help you regain the sense of why you're here
. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 02:01, 28 March 2022 (UTC)- I remember writing that as well, it's good to see someone who was involved in that (and to be sure was not the source of the problem in that case) actually gets it as intended. Infighting like this is hard for me to watch, and I'd much rather people take out the frustration somewhere that would help; writing a proper encyclopedia article on such a fraught subject would be a valuable resource for people looking for good information, especially for those who aren't (like I am) somewhat well-versed in the history of the relations between Russia and Poland/Lithuania/Belarus/Western Ukraine. I'll help out where I can too, though others are definitely going to be better than me at content I know some good adminning has its part too. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:09, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- It is not our place to tell an independent publication what they can and cannot print. No policies broken in any event. Close this stupid discussion. Schierbecker (talk) 02:13, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- I noticed the ANI thread (I have ANI watchlisted for keeping track of my own posting there, will likely remove it when that gets closed) and couldn't help but think that part of the issue here is that by default new editions of the Signpost appear at the top of editors watchlists. Sure, the Signpost is just a collection of editors posting what is in effect a very fancy essay on the state of Wikipedia every month, but it doesn't feel that way. If I'm a new editor, and I see a notification at the top of my watchlist like that (something otherwise only used for project wide issues like new admins or RfCs that would shift the functioning of the project), I'm going to assume that it has at least the tacit approval of "big Wikipedia". Now obviously more experienced editors who are more familiar with the Signpost and WMF will know they aren't related, but the Signpost certainly does very little to make it clear to the casual observer that it is unofficial. I think perhaps the Signpost could do with making it more clear it is an unoffical project, especially right now when it takes a very clear political stance. Even beyond just the editorial, nearly every item in the current edition of the Signpost is either pro-Ukrainian, anti-Russian, or both (especially the "war diary" republication, which IMO is much worse than the editorial and seemingly holds every piece of pro-Ukrainian disinformation that has come out of this war, as well as a heaping helping of anti-Russian racism). Now I don't think this (the Signpost taking a side, I have particular umbrage with some of the way they dd it) is a bad thing, but I simultaneously don't blame anyone who might look at the very official seeming Signpost and concludes "Wikipedia has taken a side!". BSMRD (talk) 02:34, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
nearly every item in the current edition of the Signpost is either pro-Ukrainian, anti-Russian, or both
Now I don't think this [...] is a bad thing
.- An all-pervasive bias is not bad? Wow. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:18, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- The first sentence of WP:NPOV mentions
encyclopedic content
. That core content policy also mentions "article" and "articles" over 30 times. The policy never mentions talk pages or project space. This is in contrast to another really important policy, WP:BLP, which goes out of its way to say that it applies everywhere on Wikipedia, without exception. Clearly, this editorial cannot be in violation of NPOV because that policy does not apply to The Signpost, or any other civil, non-disruptive expressions of reasonable opinion outside of encyclopedia articles. The OP and some other editors object to the phrase "stand in solidarity" in the headline but Solidarity is described in our own article asan awareness of shared interests, objectives, standards, and sympathies creating a psychological sense of unity of groups or classes
. Wikipedia, after all, iswritten and maintained by a community of volunteers through a model of open collaboration
and our goal is free educational content for all of humanity, including the residents of Ukraine and Russia. The actual content of the editorial seems perfectly compatible with Wikipedia's goals, and the body of the editorial was calling for improved coverage of Russia, Ukraine and the current war. How can any Wikipedian object to that? Cullen328 (talk) 04:30, 28 March 2022 (UTC)- @Cullen328: imagine a Signpost editorial in 2003 headlined "We stand with Iraq", while that country was being invaded.
- How do you think that would have gone down? BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:42, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- BrownHairedGirl, I have no idea because I did not start editing Wikipedia until 2009. I do know that Wikipedia's current coverage of that invasion of Iraq expresses solidarity with the people of Iraq by providing neutral, educational content about the horrors of that war. Cullen328 (talk) 04:49, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Foundation cleary has a POV on this Wikimedia Foundation received a Russian government demand to remove content related to the unprovoked invasion of Ukraine. so why can't a group of editors in project namespace? Moxy- 04:59, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Sigh. Refuisng a request to remove info is a million miles from expressing explicit partisanship with one of the warring parties. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:02, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- The language is clear to most. Moxy- 05:05, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Indeed. It is very clear that the WMF statement does not express unequivocal blanket support for one party. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:28, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Words are chosen for a reason Unprovoked...occurring without any identifiable cause or justification Moxy- 06:26, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Describing an attack as unprovoked is radically different to a declaration of support for the target.
- If someone was minded to say "X is a vile scumbag, but attack by Y was wholly unprovoked" then there would no logical inconsistency. We might vehemently disagree with the characterisation of X, but it is entirely possible to deplore X whilst opposing an attack. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 06:38, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Words are chosen for a reason Unprovoked...occurring without any identifiable cause or justification Moxy- 06:26, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Indeed. It is very clear that the WMF statement does not express unequivocal blanket support for one party. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:28, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- The language is clear to most. Moxy- 05:05, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Sigh. Refuisng a request to remove info is a million miles from expressing explicit partisanship with one of the warring parties. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:02, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Ah, c'mon. We're not discussing encyclopedic coverage 19 years later; we are discussing explicit partisanship while the bombs are exploding.
- The mood in America at the time was to denounce and ostracise anyone who criticised the war. Most of our editors are American, and the result would have been howls outrage at Wikipedia backing "the enemy". Not universal outrage, but the heat would have been too intense to stand. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:00, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- BrownHairedGirl, you are trying to use a reverse crystal ball to predict an alternate history scenario from the past rather than the usual use of crystal balls to predict the future. What seems crystal clear to me is that your several forum shopping complaints are based on a complete misreading of WP:NPOV, and an attempt to apply that content policy to non-content areas of the encyclopedia. Policy is important. Misinterpretation of policy is a problem.Cullen328 (talk) 05:38, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- I share the "reverse crystal ball" concern. I don't see how "Americans, during one of their most censorious periods in recent memory, would hypothetically have reacted with disproportionate rage to a hypothetical newspaper editorial that never actually existed" is much of an argument for, well, anything really. That's like saying, "If the Signpost had existed in 1945 and ran a 'we pray for peace' editorial after Hiroshima, people would have been upset." I mean, what of it? XOR'easter (talk) 05:43, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Straw man. The Signpost didn't publish a "we pray for peace" editorial It published a "we stand with X" editorial.
- But if you want to look forwards, then would you support a policy that the Signpost should publish op-eds by editors who want to express any POV, including e.g. unequivocal support for opponents of the USA?
- Or is partisanship acceptable only when it points in one direction? BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:53, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Sadly, it's becoming clear to me that using Wikipedia pages for partisan grandstanding on a political issue is to be regarded as acceptable when most of the predominantly American userbase agrees with the stance being taken.
- If the headline in the Community's newsletter was "We stand with Russia", there would be uproar.
- Policy is important. And the core policy that we are here to to build an NPOV encyclopedia is undermined by wikilawyering over whether I should have cited WP:SOAPBOX rather WP:NPOV. BrownHairedGirl (talk) •
- I share the "reverse crystal ball" concern. I don't see how "Americans, during one of their most censorious periods in recent memory, would hypothetically have reacted with disproportionate rage to a hypothetical newspaper editorial that never actually existed" is much of an argument for, well, anything really. That's like saying, "If the Signpost had existed in 1945 and ran a 'we pray for peace' editorial after Hiroshima, people would have been upset." I mean, what of it? XOR'easter (talk) 05:43, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- BrownHairedGirl, you are trying to use a reverse crystal ball to predict an alternate history scenario from the past rather than the usual use of crystal balls to predict the future. What seems crystal clear to me is that your several forum shopping complaints are based on a complete misreading of WP:NPOV, and an attempt to apply that content policy to non-content areas of the encyclopedia. Policy is important. Misinterpretation of policy is a problem.Cullen328 (talk) 05:38, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Foundation cleary has a POV on this Wikimedia Foundation received a Russian government demand to remove content related to the unprovoked invasion of Ukraine. so why can't a group of editors in project namespace? Moxy- 04:59, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- BrownHairedGirl, I have no idea because I did not start editing Wikipedia until 2009. I do know that Wikipedia's current coverage of that invasion of Iraq expresses solidarity with the people of Iraq by providing neutral, educational content about the horrors of that war. Cullen328 (talk) 04:49, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
BrownHairedGirl, this harping on "Americans, Americans, Americans" is not at all helpful because the governments of a large majority of the world's nations have called this Russsian invasion aggressive and unlawful, and the vast majority of the reliable sources frequently cited on Wikipedia and published in countries all over the world with foreign policy expertise say the exact same thing. The main sources defending the Russian invasion have been determined to be unreliable long before this war broke out a little over a month ago. This is not an "American" issue and the countries to the immediate west of Russia are demonstrably more alarmed than Americans are. Cullen328 (talk) 06:15, 28 March 2022 (UTC) (contribs) 05:46, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Newspapers publish editorials. Big flipping deal. Invoking NPOV in this context is a red herring. WP:SOAPBOX doesn't apply either; that
applies to usernames, articles, drafts, categories, files, talk page discussions, templates, and user pages
, none of which describes the Signpost. Stretching that policy to cover the extremely anodyne editorial currently being argued over would also require the deletion of many — I daresay most — essays on this website. XOR'easter (talk) 05:17, 28 March 2022 (UTC)- Please identify the [[Wikipedia:Essay]s whose headline takes a partisan political stance on an international conflict. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:31, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:No Nazis. XOR'easter (talk) 05:33, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Ok, so there's one that comes close.
- But you say that most essays are like that, so I am sure you will have no problem quickly linking another dozen or so. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:38, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- You stated,
On real-world issues, the Signpost should uphold NPOV, just as it applies to articles. Otherwise the Signpost becomes a soapbox, as it did in this case, contrary to WP:SOAPBOX.
I am taking that at face value. NPOV applies even when there is nopartisan political stance
involved, so the only conclusion I can draw is that, accepting your premise, the Signpost can never take a position in any editorial, whether or not there's a war afoot. XOR'easter (talk) 05:57, 28 March 2022 (UTC)- I am pleased to see that the concept of NPOV is finally becoming clearer. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 06:22, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- You stated,
- Wikipedia:No Nazis. XOR'easter (talk) 05:33, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Please identify the [[Wikipedia:Essay]s whose headline takes a partisan political stance on an international conflict. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:31, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- BrownHairedGirl I strongly recommend you let the issue go. You are bludgeoning the discussion and continuing a dispute where you are clearly in absolute minority. I would recommend taking a a few days off and writing an essay where you fully outline your points, share it, and let it sit. I started this thread as an opportunity for the community to discuss the role of the Signpost within the community based on some nuances I saw in the ANI thread that weren't being discussed, not for you to rehash the same arguments over a single editorial. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 07:01, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- I hoped that the problem of the main Community Newsletter taking a brazenly partisan political stance would be widely understood, and that this discussion could develop some guidance on how to avoid a recurrence. My initial contributiosnswere all in that vein.
- Sadly, that is not the goal of most commenters here, who have chosen to instead express their forthright defence of using the Signpost as a political soapbox to declare unqualified partisanship. I replied to those points, and it's a pity that you blame me for the choice of others to lead the discussion off-topic into their defences of that singe editorial. But so it goes.
- I will not be writing an essay on this. I have made my point quite well enough already, and it is abundantly clear that speaking up for NPOV is an utter waste of time and energy when speaking to people who think that NPOV doesn't apply when they believe that they are in a clear majority. When this issue arises again, my comments will be in the archive ... unless, of course, some POV warrior decides to simply delete the discussion rather than closing and archiving it; such outright deletion has been attempted twice already.
- My faith in the en.wp community has taken another very severe dent. Wikipedia could and should be so vastly better than this, treasuring our neutrality in a sea of angry partisanship. Instead, the Signpost has been playing to a war-frenzied crowd, and allowing the impression to stand that the community of editors who claim to produce an NPOV encyclopedia are actually a bunch of nuance-free partisans who become drop the pretence when they can argue (however implausibly) that they are not actually 'required to sustain the facade of neutrality.
- A reputation for neutrality is hard won, but easily squandered. This is a very sad day. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 07:28, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- BrownHairedGirl I think where you and the community might be disagreeing is the current piece from the editors. Some (me included) see it as unnecessarily political in its wording (especially the title), but most people seem to see it as neutral enough to not be an issue in the long term. However, seeing how consensus is that the current piece is alright, a more constructive target for your good-faith and reasonably-argued (if perhaps too intense) efforts would be to focus on the Signpost in general and not just this issue. Non-neutral userboxes and essays with the same tone would not really bat anyone's eye but the editorial did. Is this because the Signpost is seen as a de facto representative of the community, as others have said in this thread? Should that come with additional expectations than what has already been made explicit to them? That seems to me like a much more interesting question and one which might have the constructive result you seek if only in the long- and not the short-term. Let's assume the editorial is left as-is but is seen as a misstep to have published it. Is this a side-effect of their publishing process, which you yourself have raised issues with? Could that be due to low participation in the actual creation of the Signpost by the community outside of a small handful of volunteers? Ideas for how to increase that participation could help prevent such editorials from being published. These are the nuances I reference above and which I think should be discussed. I don't think those discussions will happen at ANI nor DRV, nor do I think pursuing retraction of the editorial will lead to those discussions either. I hope my post above didn't read passive-aggressively or dismissive (I am bad at subtext), and I genuinely appreciate you voicing your opinion. I hope you did not feel discouraged by me from pursuing the long-term growth and strengthening of the community we all seek. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 08:49, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- The representation point is an important one. While the Signpost is a user-generated project and not article material, it is not equivalent to userboxes or individual essays. There may not be a formal agreement on the matter, but in some ways the Signpost as a community-written publication is expected to follow the principles of the Wikipedian (or Wikimedian) community. These include neutrality. While NPOV as a policy does not explicitly apply, (and could not apply in the same way as it does to articles,) it is a community value. The Signpost About page already acknowledges this, stating "The Signpost does not specifically maintain a commitment to neutrality in the same way that Wikipedia articles do, but the magazine is nonetheless known, and aims to serve, as a balanced and impartial news source". On that same page, the Signpost also acknowledges its impact, stating it is "attaining a readership—and an impact—for our publications that far exceeds any of the other, more disparate publication channels and newsletters maintained among the projects." These are explicit expectations that are already written. The editorial in question takes a position not only in its title, but also (and in my mind to a more troublesome extent) in its second paragraph, which states that the Signpost is documenting, and even actively searching for, one particular POV. It is an explicit call for a certain viewpoint, and could easily be read as suggesting such a call also apply to Wikipedia content. There has been some conversation about op-eds and the importance of allowing for the expression opinions. This is valid, but this editorial is presented not just as one opinion, but as the collective view of the entire publication. I do not see how this editorial meets either the Signpost's description of itself, or its Statement of purpose. CMD (talk) 09:20, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Most newspapers have an editorial board that publishes opinions and even endorses political candidates in elections. This does not discredit their news reporting though, because the editorial board is separate from its news reporting. That seems to be the case here with the Signpost, but the issue is they just haven't made that distinction clear enough. ––FormalDude talk 09:27, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Indeed, and this raises yet more questions. Newspapers often hold a particular viewpoint, based on certain principles, which their editorials reflect. I do not see what principle of the Signpost is expressed through this editorial, and as I have mentioned it seems to conflict with their existing principles as written. CMD (talk) 09:35, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Most newspapers have an editorial board that publishes opinions and even endorses political candidates in elections. This does not discredit their news reporting though, because the editorial board is separate from its news reporting. That seems to be the case here with the Signpost, but the issue is they just haven't made that distinction clear enough. ––FormalDude talk 09:27, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- @A. C. Santacruz: thanks for the very civil tenor of that reply. I do appreciate it.
- I think that there may be merit in your description of the community's view to @EpicPupper's op-ed as being
neutral enough to not be an issue in the long term
. I think that's one possibly viable reading of the community's assessment. - However, I regard any such of assessment the article as utterly absurd: that piece is blatantly and unequivocally partisan. AFAICS, there is not a microscopic shred of neutrality in declaring that you stand by one party to a conflict, and I don't care if a hundred million editors on winged horses tell me otherwise: I do not see any trace of neutrality there.
- I see a lot more mileage in your thoughtful remarks about the nature of The Signpost., and its low participation. I note for example that the very nice editor who wrote this op-ed has been on en.wp for less than two years, so is far from being one of our more experienced editors. I can't help wondering if greater experience would have led to more caution. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:06, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- The representation point is an important one. While the Signpost is a user-generated project and not article material, it is not equivalent to userboxes or individual essays. There may not be a formal agreement on the matter, but in some ways the Signpost as a community-written publication is expected to follow the principles of the Wikipedian (or Wikimedian) community. These include neutrality. While NPOV as a policy does not explicitly apply, (and could not apply in the same way as it does to articles,) it is a community value. The Signpost About page already acknowledges this, stating "The Signpost does not specifically maintain a commitment to neutrality in the same way that Wikipedia articles do, but the magazine is nonetheless known, and aims to serve, as a balanced and impartial news source". On that same page, the Signpost also acknowledges its impact, stating it is "attaining a readership—and an impact—for our publications that far exceeds any of the other, more disparate publication channels and newsletters maintained among the projects." These are explicit expectations that are already written. The editorial in question takes a position not only in its title, but also (and in my mind to a more troublesome extent) in its second paragraph, which states that the Signpost is documenting, and even actively searching for, one particular POV. It is an explicit call for a certain viewpoint, and could easily be read as suggesting such a call also apply to Wikipedia content. There has been some conversation about op-eds and the importance of allowing for the expression opinions. This is valid, but this editorial is presented not just as one opinion, but as the collective view of the entire publication. I do not see how this editorial meets either the Signpost's description of itself, or its Statement of purpose. CMD (talk) 09:20, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- BrownHairedGirl I think where you and the community might be disagreeing is the current piece from the editors. Some (me included) see it as unnecessarily political in its wording (especially the title), but most people seem to see it as neutral enough to not be an issue in the long term. However, seeing how consensus is that the current piece is alright, a more constructive target for your good-faith and reasonably-argued (if perhaps too intense) efforts would be to focus on the Signpost in general and not just this issue. Non-neutral userboxes and essays with the same tone would not really bat anyone's eye but the editorial did. Is this because the Signpost is seen as a de facto representative of the community, as others have said in this thread? Should that come with additional expectations than what has already been made explicit to them? That seems to me like a much more interesting question and one which might have the constructive result you seek if only in the long- and not the short-term. Let's assume the editorial is left as-is but is seen as a misstep to have published it. Is this a side-effect of their publishing process, which you yourself have raised issues with? Could that be due to low participation in the actual creation of the Signpost by the community outside of a small handful of volunteers? Ideas for how to increase that participation could help prevent such editorials from being published. These are the nuances I reference above and which I think should be discussed. I don't think those discussions will happen at ANI nor DRV, nor do I think pursuing retraction of the editorial will lead to those discussions either. I hope my post above didn't read passive-aggressively or dismissive (I am bad at subtext), and I genuinely appreciate you voicing your opinion. I hope you did not feel discouraged by me from pursuing the long-term growth and strengthening of the community we all seek. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 08:49, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- NPOV doesn't apply to the Signpost, as it's not in article space. It's entitled to have editorials and opinion pieces, as long as they are identifiable as such. Storm, teacup, etc. Stifle (talk) 09:04, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- This is so overblown that it's kind of hilarious. Sdkb said it best 10 hours ago: just amend the post to explicitly state on the very top that (1) Signpost is an unofficial editorial or whatever and (2) "emphasizing that [Wikipedia] remains neutral in conflicts". Curbon7 (talk) 09:15, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
Signpost as a news publication
The above are just some examples of journalistic standards. Most legitimate news publications have them.
There are several different types of newspaper articles:
- News articles - these are found at the front of a newspaper. They inform readers about things that are happening in the world or in the local area. They will be full of facts, like names, dates and places.
- Feature articles - these explore news stories in more depth. The purpose of a feature is not just to tell you what has happened, but to explore or analyse the reasons why. These kind of pieces normally name the writer who wrote them - a byline.
- Editorials, columns and opinion pieces - these are pieces by 'personality' writers. They might be there to inform (because the writer's expert opinion is valued), or they might be there to entertain (because the writer has a comic or interesting way of describing everyday life). They are likely to have a more personal style that the writer regularly uses when writing - this could be shown through particular vocabulary or the opinion of the writer.
I don't care if the signpost wants to run an editorial, or opinion piece. Just make it clear.
The link above lists types of articles, I think this could be a decent place to start for denoting the type of an article. (Though perhaps more categories than we need.) - jc37 05:07, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- It appears they already have categories like that: Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Newsroom/Content guidance. ––FormalDude talk 05:22, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Nice! So the question is, does "From the team" make it clear that this is a Signpost editorial? I ask, because I could maybe understand the view that someone might mistakenly think this was from the community-at-large. - jc37 05:37, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- "From the team" denotes in my eyes that it comes from the Signpost editorial staff, because it'd be really hard for tens of thousands of editors (or however many Wikipedia editors edit monthly) to get together and write something :P ♠JCW555 (talk)♠ 05:47, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- lol. Well all I was thinking is perhaps adding an adjective to "team", like "editorial", or "Signpost" might add clarity. - jc37 05:54, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- That might be a good idea, but I guess I've always had the common sense to think that anything from the Signpost that's an opinion is, well, an opinion. ♠JCW555 (talk)♠ 06:00, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- With the Wikipedia community being so diverse, and with so many varied perspectives and experiences, I think it might be difficult to define "common" sense : ) - jc37 06:13, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- I think "From the editorial team" sounds nice and is a little more clear. ––FormalDude talk 06:45, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- I kinda do too, however, the byline used "Signpost team", so, following that out of deference. - jc37 07:03, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- I think I actually prefer "Signpost team" by a narrow margin. "Editorial team" isn't bad and would be fine for most newspapers, but "editor" has its own meaning on Wikipedia. XOR'easter (talk) 07:15, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- I would greatly prefer that the Signpost refrained from publishing any opinion pieces on matters not directly pertaining to Wikipedia. The interwebs are awash with opinion on world affairs, and I see no advantage to anyone in having Wikipedia join the Tower of Babel by hosting yet more opinion-spouting.
- The Signpost might potentially add value to the community by publishing reasoned opinions on notability, RFA reform, the reliability of sources, systemic bias, the usability of editing tools, WMF's use of resources, or a host of other internal issues. But on world affairs or politics, there are many other sources which are way better-qualified than en.wp editors. And publishing an op-ed which bravely restates the dominant view of the Anglosphere is, to put it politely, superfluous. To put it less politely, it's self-indulgent futility.
- But insofar as The Signpost publishes any opinion piece on any topic, then it would be much better to drop this attempt to emulate the "collective voice" style of editorial used by self-regarding old newspapers such as The Times of London or The New York Times.
- It would be much more transparent if opinion pieces were simply signed by their author(s) and (optionally) by whichever set of editors accepted a request to support them. There is no need to claim to speak for some collective. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:46, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- I think I actually prefer "Signpost team" by a narrow margin. "Editorial team" isn't bad and would be fine for most newspapers, but "editor" has its own meaning on Wikipedia. XOR'easter (talk) 07:15, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- I kinda do too, however, the byline used "Signpost team", so, following that out of deference. - jc37 07:03, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- That might be a good idea, but I guess I've always had the common sense to think that anything from the Signpost that's an opinion is, well, an opinion. ♠JCW555 (talk)♠ 06:00, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- lol. Well all I was thinking is perhaps adding an adjective to "team", like "editorial", or "Signpost" might add clarity. - jc37 05:54, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- "From the team" denotes in my eyes that it comes from the Signpost editorial staff, because it'd be really hard for tens of thousands of editors (or however many Wikipedia editors edit monthly) to get together and write something :P ♠JCW555 (talk)♠ 05:47, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- FormalDude is that content guidance meant for internal (e.g. training new contributors to the signpost) or external reading (explaining their content to non-contributors)?A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 06:50, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not sure, it kinda seems like both. It was easy for me to find. ––FormalDude talk 07:34, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Nice! So the question is, does "From the team" make it clear that this is a Signpost editorial? I ask, because I could maybe understand the view that someone might mistakenly think this was from the community-at-large. - jc37 05:37, 28 March 2022 (UTC)