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A couple of months ago an editor created an essay, [[Wikipedia:Wikibombing]], to discuss the alleged use of search engine optimization techniques on Wikipedia to influence search engine rankings. I have carried out an experiment to see whether this is actually possible in practice and have posted the results at [[User:Prioryman/Use of SEO techniques on Wikipedia]]. I would appreciate any feedback from editors. [[User:Prioryman|Prioryman]] ([[User talk:Prioryman|talk]]) 18:13, 16 August 2011 (UTC) |
A couple of months ago an editor created an essay, [[Wikipedia:Wikibombing]], to discuss the alleged use of search engine optimization techniques on Wikipedia to influence search engine rankings. I have carried out an experiment to see whether this is actually possible in practice and have posted the results at [[User:Prioryman/Use of SEO techniques on Wikipedia]]. I would appreciate any feedback from editors. [[User:Prioryman|Prioryman]] ([[User talk:Prioryman|talk]]) 18:13, 16 August 2011 (UTC) |
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== Wikipedia:Naming conventions (writing systems) has been marked as a guideline == |
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{{lw|Naming conventions (writing systems)}} has recently been edited to mark it as a [[Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines#Guidelines|guideline]]. This is an automated notice of the change ([[User:VeblenBot/PolicyNotes|more information]]). -- [[User:VeblenBot|VeblenBot]] ([[User talk:VeblenBot|talk]]) 02:00, 17 August 2011 (UTC) |
Revision as of 02:00, 17 August 2011
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Notability of cemeteries
Are there any established guidelines or substantive AFDs dealing with the notability of cemeteries, preferably in the U.S.? (My main interest right now is Ohio.) There are several I'd like to start articles on that are old, some quite large, may have notable burials, and/or are in a major metropolitan area. But I am currently unable to find anything online beyond simple verification of their existence and location, except primary source (?) histories such as websites authored by the nonprofit orgs that manage a cemetery (which I think should be considered reliable, but falls short of WP:GNG). I'd also like to make/expand comprehensive lists for certain geographic regions that would at least provide a place to cover those for which a substantive standalone article would be difficult to justify, but I'm wary of starting this without feeling out the possible WP:NOTDIR objections. I think such lists would be a valuable part of the coverage of the geography, history, and culture of populated places, and a large part of my interest is noting historic cemeteries that no longer exist but had their burials moved and consolidated into larger cemeteries (a common practice in the U.S. at least as cities grew). Thanks for your comments. postdlf (talk) 19:24, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- If you don't think they meet WP:N, you can always add content to the article on the area in which the cemetery is located and create redirects to help users find that content. Individual elements of a larger article do not necessarily have to be independently notable. Content is still there and can still be found by searching the name, they just wouldn't have a stand-alone article. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:29, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Right, that's partly why I want to develop the lists, but I wanted to see what the mood was on including a lot of cemeteries that I could verify but for which I couldn't demonstrate notability. postdlf (talk) 19:33, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Beeblebrox said exactly what I was planning on based just on the title of this thread. I'd like to add that I encourage Postdlf to make cemetery lists for counties in New York's Capital District because the NYCD wikiproject would be a strong supporter if Post wants to start there (Albany Rural Cemetery and Oakwood Cemetery (Troy, New York) having their own articles for being NRHP sites and notable burials (Uncle Sam and a US president)). Lists dont have to have all their listings be notable, the policy/guidelines are clear that the lists are to be COMPLETE regardless of having redlinks or individual listings that are not notable (something that was once fought over at List of world trade centers). Cemeteries fall under the fact we are indeed a gazetteer as well as an encyclopedia.Camelbinky (talk) 20:07, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- That's the answer I was looking for--hopefully most others would agree with you that they would fall under the gazetteer function. I have an interesting story about my visit to Albany Rural Cemetery in 2005, but for now my focus is on my home state, so you'll just have to be satisfied with the pictures I uploaded for that article back then. Though maybe I'll stumble across a good list formatting that can be applied across the board. postdlf (talk) 14:30, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
- I've commented on a number of recent AfDs where our Gazetteer function was used to justify lists of non-notable items, (in a non notable collection) - if this is simply a tabular listing then I would consider it still at risk of failing notdir and being nominated or deleted. If it were to follow the featured list criteria of being composed of engaging prose from the outset then I don't see an issue. Generally all the facts can be independently verified by local history societies who will have published works either on general local history or specifically local graveyards/cemeteries; however their works may be difficult to obtain (no barrier to WP:V) but generally can be obtained from the society itsself or nearby libraries and may assert notability of the subject. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 09:42, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
- What non-notable items failed gazetteer justification in recent AFDs? If you're thinking of the bus route lists, I think cemeteries are a little more substantial than bus routes, and at least a good handful in any given area are going to be notable enough for standalone articles, which can "anchor" a list and leave little argument against making them more comprehensive as long as each item is verifiable in some way, even if only to verify name and location. Also I think it's relevant that every biography, if complete, would state the location of the subject's burial location, but not what bus route they used.
Regarding your comment about local historical societies or libraries, probably so, but I'm asking more about how a cemetery list would be viewed for which that had not yet been demonstrated. We presume named populated places are notable, for example, or a bio that satisfies WP:POLITICIAN, even if GNG hasn't been demonstrated at the outset because we either assume that such sources do exist or will exist eventually, or that the subject is important enough for inclusion even if we can't get significant coverage but can verify the facts. In my own case, I'm currently living in a developing nation and so I'm stuck with just the books I personally own or what I can find on the web, which may be enough for verification but not GNG (yet). So I'd like to at least start on what I'm capable of doing now, and others (or myself, once I've returned to civilization) can develop it further.
I've started working in my sandbox on a list format, but haven't yet incorporated formatting for sourcing, and some of the cemeteries (this one, for example) I have been unable to find any print sources online discussing it, but in the meantime its existence can be verified as existing on maps even if nowhere else, and plaques at the location give some information about it (though lo and behold, it looks like we have Template:Cite sign, so maybe that's less of a problem than I think). Other cemeteries, as I noted, have histories on web sites run by the managing organization; I think the Roman Catholic Diocese of Columbus, for example, would be a reliable source for a history of a cemetery it maintains, but that would arguably be a primary source not independent of the subject. Notwithstanding those issues, I think those should be considered appropriate for list inclusion, whether justified by the value in making the lists as comprehensive as verifiably possible, the judgment that cemeteries are inherently notable, or the assumption that additional (secondary) sourcing can eventually be found for any cemetery. postdlf (talk) 17:47, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
- Whilst AfD's on Bus routes are ones I have commented on, a search of AfD for claims NOTDIR shows that consensus has supported deletion of lists on non-notable wind-farms, banks, restaurants, hotels, and more where claims could be made that it fulfils our gazetteer function. So hence my word of caution. Having attempted to research the graveyard at my local church extensively I know that there are literally no secondary sources covering it (where the neighbouring churchyard with some notable lairs is well documented) so I would not expect all cemeteries to be inherently notable, or assume that secondary sourcing can be found for even the collected cemeteries of a town or city. I also agree with what WhatamIdoing says below; unless the cemetery is exceptional then even small notable facts may fit better into a parent article about the town/village or even church. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 15:24, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
- What non-notable items failed gazetteer justification in recent AFDs? If you're thinking of the bus route lists, I think cemeteries are a little more substantial than bus routes, and at least a good handful in any given area are going to be notable enough for standalone articles, which can "anchor" a list and leave little argument against making them more comprehensive as long as each item is verifiable in some way, even if only to verify name and location. Also I think it's relevant that every biography, if complete, would state the location of the subject's burial location, but not what bus route they used.
- I've commented on a number of recent AfDs where our Gazetteer function was used to justify lists of non-notable items, (in a non notable collection) - if this is simply a tabular listing then I would consider it still at risk of failing notdir and being nominated or deleted. If it were to follow the featured list criteria of being composed of engaging prose from the outset then I don't see an issue. Generally all the facts can be independently verified by local history societies who will have published works either on general local history or specifically local graveyards/cemeteries; however their works may be difficult to obtain (no barrier to WP:V) but generally can be obtained from the society itsself or nearby libraries and may assert notability of the subject. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 09:42, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
- That's the answer I was looking for--hopefully most others would agree with you that they would fall under the gazetteer function. I have an interesting story about my visit to Albany Rural Cemetery in 2005, but for now my focus is on my home state, so you'll just have to be satisfied with the pictures I uploaded for that article back then. Though maybe I'll stumble across a good list formatting that can be applied across the board. postdlf (talk) 14:30, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
- Beeblebrox said exactly what I was planning on based just on the title of this thread. I'd like to add that I encourage Postdlf to make cemetery lists for counties in New York's Capital District because the NYCD wikiproject would be a strong supporter if Post wants to start there (Albany Rural Cemetery and Oakwood Cemetery (Troy, New York) having their own articles for being NRHP sites and notable burials (Uncle Sam and a US president)). Lists dont have to have all their listings be notable, the policy/guidelines are clear that the lists are to be COMPLETE regardless of having redlinks or individual listings that are not notable (something that was once fought over at List of world trade centers). Cemeteries fall under the fact we are indeed a gazetteer as well as an encyclopedia.Camelbinky (talk) 20:07, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Right, that's partly why I want to develop the lists, but I wanted to see what the mood was on including a lot of cemeteries that I could verify but for which I couldn't demonstrate notability. postdlf (talk) 19:33, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- You could consider WP:ORG, since cemeteries are organizations as well as locations. In general, though, I'd support merging any WP:PERMASTUBs to a 'parent' location. Unless it has an exceptional history, I suspect that most people would rather read about the "Lake Wobegon Cemetery" as a section in Lake Wobegon instead of as a separate article anyway. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:47, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
- See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mottville Township Cemetery for an AfD in which a cemetery was deleted. It is hard to guess what the closing admin was thinking, it would be worth asking on the closing admins talk page. Unscintillating (talk) 22:29, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
- Cemeteries should be treated like places, assigned per se notability so long as their existence is confirmable. Why? Proper biographies often end with reference to where a subject is buried, and that should be a link to a place. The deletion of cemeteries because three independently produced substantial sources on the subject can't be mustered, like Mottville Township Cemetery, is completely asinine. Carrite (talk) 16:49, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- Carrite, why should Permastubs be kept which read something similar to
"El cementerio de las axilas" (English: The Armpit Cemetery) is a burial ground in El Armpitto, New Mexico.[1] The cemetery is notable as the resting place of Joe Schmoe who received the congressional medal of honour for his actions during the Aphid war of 1896, and died defending Grover Cleveland's presidential rose garden from attack.[2] Opened in 1813 the cemetery is still in use today, open 9am-5pm weekdays and by appointment on the weekend.[1]
- The notability of the burial ground is not inherited from it's inhabitants and there's no reason that it's inhabitants biography can't link to an article on the settlement/place of worship that holds the cemetery (or the specific section that discusses the cemetery) instead of the creation of a stub that is unlikely to ever be expanded. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 12:56, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
Comment needed: What should we do about processes (such as XfD) created in violation of banning/blocking policy, but had at least a handful of other valid supporting views of nom?
Over the last few months or so, there have been multiple XfDs nominated by sock-puppets of indef-blocked users. Some people's nominations fared better (in the terms of valid reasoning), but technically all would have been closed procedurally had they been discovered sooner. By the time that the confirmation from CU arrives, some of those nominations already had multiple other editors weighing in their opinions, and the closing admins decided to let the AfDs run their cases.
For example, Donald Schroeder JWH018 (talk · contribs · logs · block log) is a sock-puppet of Torkmann (talk · contribs · logs · block log) and was blocked when CU discovered it. However, DSJ made multiple AfDs prior to the block of that account. By the time the block was conducted, 7 AfDs were listed by DSJ, of which only 1 resulted in a Keep.
WP:Banning Policy has a section that stipulates Anyone is free to revert any edits made in defiance of a ban. This does not mean that obviously helpful edits (such as fixing typos or undoing vandalism) must be reverted just because they were made by a banned editor, but the presumption in ambiguous cases should be to revert. Several comments were recently raised here regarding Speedy Keep policy (and by extension Speedy Delete criteria) vs banning policy.
So I'm asking the community to comment on this issue: What should we do regarding processes that require a nomination, and it was later found out that the nominator shouldn't have been able to do so (either due to blocks/bans/topic bans), but not before multiple legitimate editors have voiced valid supporting views of the nomination? Should we Dismiss the nomination altogether due to its invalid nomination? Do we Let the Process run its course, then if needed, raise corresponding issues at appropriate boards (such as deletion review)? Or do we have other options?
A simple example: A sock-puppet of a blocked/banned user nominated a valid article for deletion at AfD. (Legitimate) editors put in their views, and 2 days into the 7-day period required for AfD, it is then discovered that the nominator was a sockpuppet (and subsequently blocked/banned). What should we do about the ongoing AfD? - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 16:22, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
- I'll be the first to answer my own question: I would Let the process run if there's enough valid points made by other editors to support the nomination view. Even though the current wording in the banning policy regarding this situation would be to revert the nom, if enough points have been made by other editors, then even if the process were to be tossed out procedurally, it would be nominated legitimately soon after. Despite the fact that we have no deadline, I don't see a reason why it needs to be re-done. Yes, it would be procedurally more sound, but I guess I prefer to see the light in things, perhaps sometimes overboard. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 16:29, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
My own personal preference (using my personal judgement and sometimes using IAR) is to close with leave to speedy renominate if it's a "low risk" article and let it run if it's a "high risk" article. See this thread for my definition of high risk/low risk. That way if another Claritas sock shows up and starts opening up a can of whupass on Transformers articles, I can put a quick stop to it. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 16:37, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
- I see your point, of course. However, the issue that some people are raising at ANI (and I must have missed it above) is that they felt the nomination itself, whether done in good- or bad-faith, has already tainted people's views on it due to the existence of the XfD. In addition, if the editor in question is only blocked, whether indef or not, then the blocking policy actually doesn't cover the reversion of those nominations. As such, I raised the possibility of the editor in question being only blocked, not (topic-)banned. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 16:49, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
- Let the processes run unless there is an unequivocal reason for a speedy keep. AfD is supposed to be determined by the quality of argument with reference to policies. A well-reasoned nomination that garners consensus to delete is constructive to the project even if motivated by spite. If they should all turn out to be trivial then the nominator will be held to account for them. (No reason why if bad nominations can be made in good intent, good nominations can't be made with bad intent )GraemeLeggett (talk) 17:05, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
- The previous comment and this discussion as a whole including the subject heading is confounded by discussing both blocked and banned editors at the same time. Unscintillating (talk) 18:55, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
- Analyzing Penwhale's contributions, I see that the confounding of blocking and banning policy is consistent with previous edits discounting WP:Banning policy. Penwhale writes at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard, here, "A community ban would just be a formality, in theory". Here, Penwhale has closed an WP:AN discussion against unanimous support for banning. Here he/she has restored the edit of a banned user. Unscintillating (talk) 00:51, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
- That AfD nom, I shall note, was upheld at DRV, and as a closed AfD, shouldn't have been touched. I ask both related to block and ban due to fine-tuning what we are dealing with. As for Indef block == community ban, the position has always been that indef blocks that aren't going to be overturned is de facto community ban. I tried to close that discussion, people didn't like it, we all moved on. I wouldn't say that I closed against unanimous support for banning; in my personal opinion, formality should only be used when absolutely necessary (and in this case, I did't see a necessity). - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 04:12, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
Let the process run. The closing administrator is free to ignore the contributions of the banned user, but it is unhelpful to remove or ignore the opinions of good-faith editors. Reyk YO! 18:30, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
- If we can get in early the whole xFD could go the way of a G5 speedy delete, but of course it will depend on the reason for a block or a ban. If the ban is against making xFDs then the xFD should be speedy closed or deleted. Otherwise it should be clearly labelled as a sock creation and the supporting voters asked to reconsider their vote in the new knowlege. Given the socking there would also be a good chance of sock support appearing in such an xFD, so it would need much close scrutiny. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:28, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
- I'd prefer that you use your best judgment. If it's a one-off, then I'd probably let it go. If the sock's whole reason for socking is to get pages deleted, then I'd kill the nominations. Allowing a sock to achieve his/her goals encourages the sock to keep abusing Wikipedia. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:57, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
- Well, as xFD's are not supposed to be !votes, the closing administrators would already have to judge arguments for/against Keep. I do agree with you that early on it should be labeled for transparency, but I feel that if the other editors can make valid views, then the process should run. (On that note, though, what if there were multiple editors that are supporting only due to "Per nom"?) - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 01:57, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
- If a sock is making frivolous AfD noms then they won't get a lot of support from good faith voters and the discussion could be closed as a snow or speedy keep. If they make arguments good enough that others agree with them, then the discussion should run. Reyk YO! 03:45, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
- And if the whole reason the person is banned is because of problems with AfD or a particular subject area? If I get topic-banned or site-banned because I keep trying to get ____ articles deleted, then is it okay with you if I keep trying to get them deleted, so long as some "good faith voters" agree with me before you realize that the nom is the 127th sock for a long-banned user?
Because if all "I" want is to get these articles deleted, and socking results in at least some of those articles being deleted, then I'm definitely going to keep socking. After all, it costs me nothing to create the 128th account, and socking is an effective way of deleting the ____ articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:54, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
- It's not an ideal situation, because we are then forced to decide which of two choices is less disruptive. Letting a banned user get their way, which in this case would be the improvement of the encyclopedia through the removal of content which other editors agree is unsuitable, or telling those other editors "No, sorry, your opinions are invalid because you agreed with a banned user". Both possibilities will annoy somebody, but I think the first choice is the best. I'd also like to remind you of what the banning policy actually says: "If editors other than the banned editor have made good-faith contributions to [a] page or its talk page, it is courteous to inform them that the page was created by a banned editor, and then decide on a case-by-case basis what to do." In fact, the entire Edits_by_and_on_behalf_of_banned_editors section of the policy makes it clear that reverting is not mandatory, but should be tempered with common sense. Lastly, I think your example is a poor one because anyone banned for wanting articles on X deleted can only have been banned for it if they were making clearly frivolous or bad-faith nominations- not the kind of nomination random passers-by would agree with. Reyk YO! 20:53, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
- Not the kind that many random passers-by would agree with—but definitely the kind of nomination that some editor might agree with. We see all sorts of nonsense in AFDs. If people didn't come up with poor reasons for deleting valid articles, then WP:ATA wouldn't list nearly fifty common examples of invalid reasons.
This is why I think we need to go strictly case-by-case: This is not a one-size-fits-all situation, so we don't want a one-size-fits-all solution. We need best judgment, not mindlessness. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:54, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
- So I think your position is essentially is "use common sense, leaning towards closing it" and mine is "use common sense, leaning towards keeping it open". Seems we're pretty much in agreement then. Reyk YO! 06:01, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, I wouldn't lean towards closing it. I think "use common sense, full stop" is the right answer. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:59, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
- Not the kind that many random passers-by would agree with—but definitely the kind of nomination that some editor might agree with. We see all sorts of nonsense in AFDs. If people didn't come up with poor reasons for deleting valid articles, then WP:ATA wouldn't list nearly fifty common examples of invalid reasons.
- And if the whole reason the person is banned is because of problems with AfD or a particular subject area? If I get topic-banned or site-banned because I keep trying to get ____ articles deleted, then is it okay with you if I keep trying to get them deleted, so long as some "good faith voters" agree with me before you realize that the nom is the 127th sock for a long-banned user?
- Depends. While the difference between a banned and a non-banned editor is that good edits from banned editors are not welcome (and so may be reverted on sight), once other editors have spent time reviewing the merits of their edits and have decided to agree to them, there is usually no need to pretend that an AfD has never happened. An exception would be multiple frivolous nominations or obvious trolling. (If a banned editor starts a new GNAA AfD, it should be speedily closed). —Kusma (t·c) 08:41, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
- Let the discussion run its course, and mark the blocked/banned user's comments so that anyone (including the closing admin) viewing the discussion can see that the user was blocked/banned. Once any user has already esxpressed an opinion which supports the banned user, I think that we must give that other user the right to have his/her comments considered. Chances are that:
- If the user is a newcomer, then ignoring his/her comments because of the nominator would seem to me like a BITE issue
- If the user isn't a newcomer, then if we close the discussion, the user is likely to open a new one with similar reasoning - and since Wikipedia isn't a bureaucracy, we should just keep it open rather than having a new discussion created just because of the nominator.
- עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 09:08, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
- Follow normal AfD procedure. If there are grounds for WP:Speedy keep, then that will be done, otherwise, the article will be assessed on its merits during the seven days of discussion and consensus followed. Notices regarding new users and sock accounts and banned users are normally added to the discussion anyway, so that would be taken into account. The nominator is only the person who initiated the discussion, and they have no control over the outcome which is in the hands of the community. SilkTork ✔Tea time 16:16, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
- Let the discussion run, of course. The nominator is irrelevant in an AfD. What matters is whether the page should be kept or deleted, and that's based off the arguments—not usernames. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 17:39, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
- If it's a clearly disruptive AFD, I most certainly am either closing as a "speedy keep" or am outright deleting that AFD per WP:CSD#G5; a prime example of this is the Transformers-related AFD disruption caused by banned user Wiki brah (talk · contribs), Claritas (talk · contribs), and Editor XXV (talk · contribs). Moreover, the door swings both ways; if administrators have the prerogative to delete banned users' contributions in violation of their ban, then they should similarly have the prerogative to speedy close deletion discussions. Otherwise, the banning policy becomes useless. –MuZemike 02:25, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
- I would actually favor closing the AfD as "speedy keep" and perhaps even deleting the AfD page per MuZemike's comment, even if the majority of good faith comments are in favor of deletion. Users who have been blocked or banned are not be able to contribute to Wikipedia in any form and that should includes initiating an AfD. To do anything less would be opening a back door in the banning policy and allow banned editors to game the system. If another editor in good standing wishes to restart the AfD, they should be able to open a new AfD. —Farix (t | c) 13:18, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
- If other editors have weighed-in in good faith, then it would not be even the slightest bit proper to close the AfD on a technicality. People may hate to admit it here, but just because a banned editor does something, that doesn't make what they did automatically wrong. Process and rules should not impede common sense. Tarc (talk) 13:35, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY. If the process has been initiated and other good faith editors are participating in the discussion, shutting the discussion down is unnecessarily legalistic. I can understand deleting the banned user's changes to an article or even deleting their individual opinion. But deleting the opinions of other good faith editors? Sounds more harmful than anything. Dzlife (talk) 13:49, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
- Let the process run - The fact that an AfD was created by a blocked/banned user doesn't make it any more likely to be kept or deleted, and won't change the outcome (particularly if the banned user's comments are struck or otherwise ignored by the closer). If the article deserved to be kept, it will be kept, and vice versa. —SW— confer 14:37, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
- Close immediately - Deletion nominations started by banned or blocked users are violations of legality. All nominations made by previously banned or blocked users should be immediately closed without prejudice. Thing can be restarted if there is merit to the case. It is worth considering that some of these deletion efforts by the socks of banned editors are the product of editors who were banned for the very act of their agenda-driven deletions. Socking around bans should not be rewarded. Carrite (talk) 20:10, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
- Closing the discussion immediately would essentially be equivalent to making an ad hominem vote. Note that one of the arguments to avoid in deletion discussions are arguments to the person. In fact, one of the examples listed for such an argument to avoid is "Keep, nominator is a banned user trying to destroy Wikipedia." Deletion discussions are about the article, not the nominator. Allowing a good faith AfD to run its course is in no way a "reward" for the nominator. —SW— converse 20:46, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
- Question- Would you agree that any such rebooting of the AfD should automatically copy and paste over all the previous good-faith votes? After all it is quite annoying to have to repeat yourself in a second discussion, and people who participated in the first one might miss the second altogether. If so, do you think there's any real difference between starting a second discussion or merely letting the first one run with the nominator's statement struck through? Reyk YO! 20:59, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
- I've personally got no problem with allowing a restart with all previous good-faith arguments restored. But there should be a requirement that somebody feels a challenge is important enough to restart. In general, most of these challenges are unimportant and may well fall away. There is nothing wrong with that. Carrite (talk) 01:32, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
- In general, let the AFD run. A significant percentage of Wikipedia articles are hoaxes, copyright violations or vanispamcruftisements, and if submitted to XFD would be properly deleted. If articles are about notable subjects, they might emerge with editorial improvements or reliable sources with significant coverage identified. I have done that for probably thousands of articles submitted to AFD over the years. If I see the AFD, then read the article and note that it is unreferenced, or has dubious claims of notability, and then I spend significant time searching for references at Google News Archive, Google Books, Google Scholar, the research library at my local university, or specialized websites for music and musicians, and then I draft and post my !vote to delete the article because it fails WP:N, WP:ORG, WP:BIO, or some other appropriate guideline, or my recommendation to merge it to a suitable target article, I would be outraged to find that someone "speedily kept" it because the nominator was banned/blocked/had cooties. I am not someone who mindlessly says, "Sure, huh, huh, let's delete it because someone said delete it, huh, huh, yeah!" How insulting and demeaning it is to assume as much! IF a banned editor noms a bunch of articles, and ONLY IF you see them and act before some good-faith editor spends his precious time searching for and not finding references, would it be appropriate to close as a "Speedy Keep." There have been similar questions raised at the Reference Desk, where a banned editor may ask a question, which people spend considerable time finding references and answering, then someone says, "I'm blanking this thread because the original poster was banned user XX." Even a banned user might ask a question, the referenced answer to which is encyclopedic, informative, and useful to many readers. And considerable harm to the project may occur when the writing of good-faith editors is tossed on the rubbish pile because it caught cooties due to the banned user launching the thread. Edison (talk) 02:29, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
- Allow Afd to conclude if it is a legitimate nomination (outside of being by a banned user). Obviously, if the nomination is not done in good faith, then speedy keep and delete the AfD. I agree that AfD is about articles, not users. jsfouche ☽☾Talk 03:26, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
- It depends If the XfD is in any way related to the reason underlying the block/ban, and if closure will not cause further disruption, I believe it should be closed with no prejudice against any other user starting a fresh discussion immediately/whenever; additionally it might be appropriate to notify participants of this closure and reason for it. If the XfD is unrelated to the ban, it should continue. I'd like to think that common sense would cover any specific decision, and regular discussion/consensus; it's not that common an issue, and don't believe specific guidance is necessary or desirable. (WP:CREEP) Chzz ► 16:24, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- Let the AfD run Blocks and bans aren't punishments, they are supposed to prevent harm to Wikipedia. And pre-mature closing of the AfD doesn't serve that goal, it only serves the "punishment" goal.--Puchiko (Talk-email) 17:50, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- Let the AFD run per Puchiko. Bad-faith AFDs should be kept or speedy kept regardless of whether the nominator's allowed to edit, and good-faith AFDs should result either in keep or delete based on the arguments: in this situation, the rule gets in the way of our improving Wikipedia. Nyttend (talk) 00:14, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
What about other processes (RFC/U, RFARB, etc.)?
I'm wondering what happens when a sock of a banned user starts another process.
- Sock starts a WP:RFARB on the admin that blocked him
- Sock nominates somebody for adminship and starts an RfA
- Sock starts an RFC on Pending Changes
- Sock requests a checkuser on an enemy
- Sock starts a WP:RFC/U on an enemy
Recently an RFARB was allowed to run after a sock started it. What should we do when sock starts a process like these and the process is underway before we find out it's a banned user? - Hydroxonium (T•C•V) 03:40, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
- Seriously, most of these events are so rare that WP:UCS provides all of the guidance we need. Experienced users know when to spot a sock most of the time, and we don't need any extra policy guidance beyond "use sound judgement". 99% of the time, these things get reverted, deleted, or ignored with no further action; in the other 1% of the time a bona fide experienced user will often "take ownership" the situation if it has merit. I don't see any need to codify this sort of thing in law any more than it already is. We delete the contributions of banned users on sight, excepting in the few cases where WP:IAR may apply; such as when an AFD has bone fide delete comments that follow the nomination, or other occurances. --Jayron32 03:49, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
- They should be closed. If someone else wants to start an AfD, they can link to closed one. Otherwise, it's "you're banned, except from starting AfDs." - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 04:01, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
- Well:
- ArbCom requests have ArbCom members (and clerks) to deal with (and technically they actually could email the committee instead if the need arises without resorting to socking);
- CheckUser requests are also scrutinized by CheckUsers and their clerks (and WP:BOOMERANG could apply);
- Valid RfA/RfC(/U) would/could be endorsed by other editors (as they, like AfDs, require community input for them to work)
- I think I summarized okay here? - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 06:21, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
- What some people can do, and what those people actually do, can be quite different though. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:00, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
- In a lot of ways, I think this also comes back to canvassing policy and the need to clarify the way it works in practice. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:00, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
- RfA: If the original nominator disappears (assuming the nominee accepted) I treat it like a self nomination (and don't hold the sock's nom against them). RfArb: ArbCom and it's clerks are pretty good at isolating problematic statements by disruptive users once it's gotten beyond a RfArb request. RFCs couldn't hurt to leave open as establishing consensus (even if it's in the opposite direction) is useful for enforcing the will of the community. CU is very highly watched and policed (in addition to having the Arb Oversight committee) that getting a checkuser on a enemy is not likely to shed any useful data. And finally, a RFC/U takes 2 endorsers of the statement of the dispute to get it to stick more than 48 hours. If there are 2 other users in good standing that have attempted to resolve the situation unsuccessfully then It's a good bet that there is a real problem that shouldn't be swept under the carpet because the person who filed the paperwork has been indeffed. Hasteur (talk) 16:12, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
- Per Jayron32 and my comment in the above section, I think a) this is rare, b) current policy/guidelines are adequate, c) it needs case-by-case discussion/consensus and a pinch of common sense. Chzz ► 16:28, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- My thoughts: If the case was closed recently enough, the closing admin should be alerted and asked to review the case (or at least lodge it at Deletion reviews). If the case is still open, let it run its course, but it should be noted for the closer that the requester was a sock. Nightw 12:49, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
Related question
Should people go back to closed discussions like concluded AfDs to remove or strike through comments made by people later found to be socks of banned users?
- Oppose- I think it's pointless, and potentially confusing for anyone reviewing the discussion later on. I don't think the banning policy calls for anything of the sort, and I think closed discussions should be left as they are. Reyk YO! 23:51, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
- It depends on the timing of the discovery and whether the invalid comments had a material impact. I agree that striking WP:Articles for deletion/Warpath (Transformers) is unnecessary, since the nominator's status was discovered and noted at the AfD within several hours. Sockpuppetry wasn't discovered for WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Leanne/AfDs affected for over a month. Those AfDs were annotated on a case-by-case basis. Flatscan (talk) 04:35, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps you should recuse your comment about Warpath (transformers)? Are you aware that the closing admin of that DRV has never issued a related ruling regarding WP:Banning policy? Unscintillating (talk) 02:05, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
- The premise of the RfC question is unclear, since what WP:Banning policy says is, "Anyone is free to revert any edits made in defiance of a ban." Unscintillating (talk) 02:05, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
- The de facto practice is that the edits of banned editors at AfD are not physically reverted, but they are changed to strike-through font. I'm not aware that the reason for doing this, as opposed to a simple revert, is documented, but there is a talk page rule in refactoring that calls for avoiding the changing of meaning when refactoring, and a simple revert (or blanking for the special case of the AfD nom) could change the sequence of ideas in the AfD discussion. Unscintillating (talk) 02:05, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
- There is a further point in this discussion, I am aware of some editors that have restored the edits of banned editors. WP:Banning policy states, "editors are expected to respect the enforcement of policies by not undermining or sabotaging them". Unscintillating (talk) 02:05, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
- I'd say it's a good idea to let the process run its course so long as there is an adequate level of response from other editors. As an example, the recent ArbCom case for MickMackNee was kept open even after it came to light that the filing party was a sockpuppet of a banned user, probably because there were other users who had the same grievances with him as the sock did. Nightw 12:49, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
AfD nominations and de jure WP:Banning Policy
Many of the editors commenting above didn't discriminate between a blocked editor and a banned editor. A key comment at ANI was that this is a case where there is a difference between de facto and de jure bans. So the focus of this particular section has to do with the de jure ban, meaning the editor has actually been banned, not that his status is similar to being banned.
Wikipedia:BAN#Bans apply to all editing, good or bad states
- The measure of a site ban is that even if the editor were to make good edits, permitting them to re-join the community poses enough risk of disruption, issues, or harm, that they may not edit at all, even if the edits seem good.[3]
- ^ a b Public Records of Armpit County
- ^ Joe Schmoe: "I jus' kills 'em.", Thomson, 1965, University of Armpit Publishing
- ^ Examples of use at Requests for Arbitration: - by Hersfold, by Newyorkbrad, by Vassyana (line 478+) (A ban is a ban. It's not uncommon for people to make "good" edits to create a soapbox for disputing their ban and/or thumbing their nose at the project. Let's not enable them).
At first glance, this would seem to end the discussion about AfD nominations and banned editors.
But before getting to that, it is worth asking, why would a detail this small require any further discussion? After all, among the edits that a user makes, the number of AfD nominations would on average be almost non-existant. Yet experience shows otherwise, so we have to reverse the question and ask, why do banned editors make an unusually high percentage of AfD nominations?
- Such nominations are especially disruptive, they take up potentially hours of time of perhaps dozens of editors, and at least one admin; whereas any single contribution to an Article may be quietly reverted and forgotten.
- Renominating an article that has previously been closed as "No consensus" is an almost guaranteed way to stir up the community.
- There is a group of deletionist-minded admins and editors that protect these AfD nominations.
- An undiscussed edit was made to a deletion guideline, an edit that is used to protect and encourage such nominations.
So in fact, banned editors have reason to love making a sock and making AfD nominations, and the record also shows that they like to make delete !votes at other AfD discussions. Even if the nomination fails, they have succeeded in increasing the "burden of deletion". If we can assume that Keep !votes take more time than Delete !votes, and that the result of an AfD discussion is partially a function of the work expended to prepare a posting, a failed AfD nomination has still biased all other AfD discussions toward deletion.
So back to the policy, Wikipedia:BAN#Bans apply to all editing, good or bad, why does this policy statement not end the question?
- Should this policy be strictly enforced? Ron Ritzman advances the question by making the point that there is such a thing as a "high risk" AfD nomination, such as the biography of a living person. He believes we should not apply strict banning policy criteria for such articles.
- Another problem is that AfD nominations cannot be reverted in the usual sense. For technical reasons, when an edit is the first on a new page, the revert function doesn't work. The closest alternative is the deletion of the page, but once even one other editor has posted, the page should not be deleted because the history of the good edit would be lost.
- Even though policies state that they are "a widely accepted standard that all editors should normally follow" not all editors and admins accept this standard.
- A last problem comes in the annoying editorial reality of what if on day 6 of an AfD discussion, it is discovered that the AfD was done by a banned editor, and someone reverts the nom. We can be fairly sure the nominator did not work through the WP:BEFORE notes, and that the policy at WP:ATD (alternatives to deletion) was to the nominator likely to be a mere trifle. Too many times we have heard that once an AfD discussion has begun, that the first delete vote "could have" done the nomination themselves. That may or may not be true, that delete-vote editor may have enough integrity to refuse to start an AfD nomination without doing more work than was required by WP:BEFORE and WP:ATD. There is probably a middle ground here that would need work at WP:Banning policy to work through proposals and soften the WP:Banning policy requirements.
Unscintillating (talk) 02:55, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- The reason that the section of the banning policy you linked to doesn't "end the question" is that the section Wikipedia:Ban#Edits by and on behalf of banned editors, which is more directly relevant to this discussion, recommends using common sense. Reyk YO! 03:31, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- An AfD nomination is not an "obviously helpful edit" so per the cited policy should be reverted. Common sense is to stop encouraging banned editors from making socks and AfD noms. Unscintillating (talk) 04:44, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- The relevant bit is this: "If editors other than the banned editor have made good-faith contributions to the page or its talk page, it is courteous to inform them that the page was created by a banned editor, and then decide on a case-by-case basis what to do." Since policy describes community practice rather than dictating it, and AfD discussions started by a sock are in fact not automatically reverted, I think my reading of the policy is correct. Reyk YO! 07:06, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- An AfD nomination is not an "obviously helpful edit" so per the cited policy should be reverted. Common sense is to stop encouraging banned editors from making socks and AfD noms. Unscintillating (talk) 04:44, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- To review a couple of recent posts, an exchange about [Wikipedia:Ban#Edits by and on behalf of banned editors] led to the point that "Common sense is to stop encouraging banned editors from making socks and AfD noms." Instead of agreeing, some new unreferenced text is quoted, calling it a "relevant bit"(?) In spite of the inference otherwise, there is no requirement at WP:Banning policy that admins or anyone else revert the AfD noms of banned editors. The reference to "reading of the policy" has an unclear antecedent. Recalling the text of the editors that prepared WP:Banning policy:
== Evasion and enforcement ==
Wikipedia's approach to enforcing bans balances a number of competing concerns:
- Maximizing the quality of the encyclopedia
- Avoiding inconvenience or aggravation to any victims of mistaken identity
- Maximizing the number of editors who can edit Wikipedia
- Avoiding conflict within the community over banned editors
- Dissuading or preventing banned editors from editing Wikipedia or the relevant area of the ban
As a result, enforcement has a number of aspects. While all editors are expected to respect the enforcement of policies by not undermining or sabotaging them, no editor is personally obligated to help enforce any ban.
[end of quote] Unscintillating (talk) 21:54, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- My personal view is that AfD is like a discussion - sure, some people might be disallowed to start a conversation, but once it has been started and multiple people have chimed in (supporting the same view), then removing (striking out) comments no longer makes sense when looking at the whole conversation. Notating that the person in question shouldn't have been able to start the conversation after the conversation has concluded works, but striking out and/or removal of comments wouldn't help much.
- Simply put: Notating the closed AfDs that they were initiated by block- or ban-evading editor is okay. Striking out the nom altogether, on the other hand, would make the AfD lose parts of its meaning and should be avoided. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 09:09, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
- @Penwhale, (1) Do you agree that banned editors make a notably high number of AfD nominations? (2) Do you agree that the AfD process begun by AfD nominations takes a large amount of the time resource of Wikipedia editors? (3) Do you agree that restoring the edits of banned users is "undermining or sabotage"? Unscintillating (talk) 12:01, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
- is ther any data on the number or duration of AfDs started by banned users? GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:47, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
- Flatscan just posted Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Leanne/AfDs affected above, does this help?. Unscintillating (talk) 13:57, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
- To be blunt, no. That's a single case, and therefore unlikely to representative of the problem of banned users initiating or attempting to skew AfDs. What would be useful would be the number of banned users who intiated AfDs in a given period and the number of AfDs initiated by banned users. GraemeLeggett (talk) 14:43, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
- So 140 examples is nothing? Unscintillating (talk) 05:00, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
- To be blunt, no. That's a single case, and therefore unlikely to representative of the problem of banned users initiating or attempting to skew AfDs. What would be useful would be the number of banned users who intiated AfDs in a given period and the number of AfDs initiated by banned users. GraemeLeggett (talk) 14:43, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
- Flatscan just posted Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Leanne/AfDs affected above, does this help?. Unscintillating (talk) 13:57, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
- is ther any data on the number or duration of AfDs started by banned users? GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:47, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
- @Penwhale, (1) Do you agree that banned editors make a notably high number of AfD nominations? (2) Do you agree that the AfD process begun by AfD nominations takes a large amount of the time resource of Wikipedia editors? (3) Do you agree that restoring the edits of banned users is "undermining or sabotage"? Unscintillating (talk) 12:01, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
- As to your metric, (1) by definition, no one has a list of banned editors currently making edits. (2) Given the Leanne case, it takes as much as 5 1/2 years to discover sockfarms, which suggests that you might need to go back 5 1/2 years to begin collecting your metric, as newer data is incomplete. (3) According to Wikipedia:List of banned users we do not have a complete list of known banned users even then. (4) The measurement of evasion is inherently non-deterministic, because evasion skill levels vary, and techniques evolve with time, so it is possible or likely that we have banned editors that we will never detect. You might check with the admins in the CU area. Unscintillating (talk) 05:00, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
- I went through the 1000 most-recent contributions of banned User:Anthem of joy. I found in a space of five weeks 47 AfD or MfD noms, with 25% of the noms 2nd, 3rd, or 4th noms (recall that I above noted that 2nd and 3rd noms are an almost guaranteed way to stir up the community). Then I also reviewed all of User:Donald Schroeder JWH018 contributions, finding ten AfD nominations in a month. Do you agree that ten AfD nominations in a month is "notably high"?
- User:Anthem of Joy
- 2011-06-14T05:55:16 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chester Romans (Creating deletion discussion page for Chester Romans. (TW))
- 2011-06-13T19:12:13 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PlayStation Wrestling (Creating deletion discussion page for PlayStation Wrestling. (TW))
- 2011-06-13T17:38:30 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiReaper (Creating deletion discussion page for Wikipedia:WikiReaper. (TW))
- 2011-06-13T11:56:41 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pulp and Paper merit badge (Creating deletion discussion page for Pulp and Paper merit badge. (TW))
- 2011-06-13T11:10:47 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Mobile Suit Gundam SEED vehicles and aircraft (Creating deletion discussion page for List of Mobile Suit Gundam SEED vehicles and aircraft. (TW))
- 2011-06-13T11:00:40 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Archangel class assault ship (Creating deletion discussion page for Archangel class assault ship. (TW))
- 2011-06-12T10:42:33 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Hron (2nd nomination) (Creating deletion discussion page for John Hron. (TW))
- 2011-06-12T09:19:11 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sphere Builder (Creating deletion discussion page for Sphere Builder. (TW))
- 2011-06-12T07:53:41 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of cultural references to A Clockwork Orange (3rd nomination) (Creating deletion discussion page for List of cultural references to A Clockwork Orange. (TW))
- 2011-06-12T07:32:42 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fenway Recordings (Creating deletion discussion page for Fenway Recordings. (TW))
- 2011-06-12T07:22:47 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ankheg (Creating deletion discussion page for Ankheg. (TW))
- 2011-06-11T20:01:55 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Mobile Suit Gundam SEED superweapons (Creating deletion discussion page for List of Mobile Suit Gundam SEED superweapons. (TW))
- 2011-06-11T19:51:36 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Mobile Suit Gundam SEED human enhancements (Creating deletion discussion page for List of Mobile Suit Gundam SEED human enhancements. (TW))
- 2011-06-11T11:09:25 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Prime Minister of the United States (3rd nomination) (Creating deletion discussion page for Prime Minister of the United States. (TW))
- 2011-06-10T15:21:34 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Human (Star Trek) (2nd nomination) (Creating deletion discussion page for Human (Star Trek). (TW))
- 2011-06-09T20:32:08 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/10 zeptometres (Creating deletion discussion page for 10 zeptometres. (TW))
- 2011-06-09T20:10:02 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chronology of Star Wars (3rd nomination) (Creating deletion discussion page for Chronology of Star Wars. (TW))
- 2011-06-09T16:17:26 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Tlogmer/Captain Obvious (Creating deletion discussion page for User:Tlogmer/Captain Obvious. (TW))
- 2011-06-06T16:47:01 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Bajeluk/Thesis (Creating deletion discussion page for User:Bajeluk/Thesis. (TW))
- 2011-06-05T19:04:45 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:VictoriaRILarsen (Creating deletion discussion page for User:VictoriaRILarsen. (TW))
- 2011-06-05T14:27:36 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Davejenk1ns/Chapter 1 (Creating deletion discussion page for User:Davejenk1ns/Chapter 1. (TW))
- 2011-06-05T10:31:11 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Minerva class battleship (2nd nomination) (Creating deletion discussion page for Minerva class battleship. (TW))
- 2011-06-04T14:35:52 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Parhamr/Undergratuate thesis (Creating deletion discussion page for User:Parhamr/Undergratuate thesis. (TW))
- 2011-06-04T14:17:22 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Rachel27 (Creating deletion discussion page for User:Rachel27. (TW))
- 2011-06-04T09:23:26 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Mobile Suit Gundam SEED factions (Creating deletion discussion page for List of Mobile Suit Gundam SEED factions. (TW))
- 2011-06-03T19:05:37 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/GAT-01 Strike Dagger (Creating deletion discussion page for GAT-01 Strike Dagger. (TW))
- 2011-05-29T10:56:16 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/TMF/A-803 LaGOWE (Creating deletion discussion page for TMF/A-803 LaGOWE. (TW))
- 2011-05-29T10:24:57 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Demosthenes (fictional character) (Creating deletion discussion page for Demosthenes (fictional character). (TW))
- 2011-05-28T09:38:03 (diff | hist) Tom Nash (Proposing article for deletion per WP:PROD. (TW))
- 2011-05-28T08:59:28 (diff | hist) List of people with the given name Mitra (Proposing article for deletion per WP:PROD. (TW))
- 2011-05-27T19:19:25 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of mad scientists (2nd nomination) (Creating deletion discussion page for List of mad scientists. (TW))
- 2011-05-26T17:14:00 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Armageddon (Marvel Comics) (Creating deletion discussion page for Armageddon (Marvel Comics). (TW))
- 2011-05-26T17:02:52 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/YMF-X000A Dreadnought Gundam (2nd nomination) (Creating deletion discussion page for YMF-X000A Dreadnought Gundam. (TW))
- 2011-05-25T15:26:27 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/MBF-P01 Gundam Astray Gold Frame (Creating deletion discussion page for MBF-P01 Gundam Astray Gold Frame. (TW))
- 2011-05-24T20:04:17 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/CAT1-X Hyperion Gundam series (2nd nomination) (Creating deletion discussion page for CAT1-X Hyperion Gundam series. (TW))
- 2011-05-20T21:09:58 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of people with the given name Darren (Creating deletion discussion page for List of people with the given name Darren. (TW))
- 2011-05-19T15:51:26 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of fictional centenarians (Creating deletion discussion page for List of fictional centenarians. (TW))
- 2011-05-17T16:11:35 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of nicknames of historical personages (Creating deletion discussion page for List of nicknames of historical personages. (TW))
- 2011-05-15T14:06:53 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Mobile Suit Gundam SEED mobile weapons (Creating deletion discussion page for List of Mobile Suit Gundam SEED mobile weapons. (TW))
- 2011-05-15T11:13:55 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of fictional television shows (4th nomination) (Creating deletion discussion page for List of fictional television shows. (TW))
- 2011-05-13T18:13:06 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Dual Mirror Language of Leonardo Da Vinci (Creating deletion discussion page for The Dual Mirror Language of Leonardo Da Vinci. (TW))
- 2011-05-13T06:16:15 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of people with the given name Sarah or Sara (Creating deletion discussion page for List of people with the given name Sarah or Sara. (TW))
- 2011-05-11T15:36:51 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of miscellaneous General Hospital characters (Creating deletion discussion page for List of miscellaneous General Hospital characters. (TW))
- 2011-05-11T06:13:57 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/World Heavyweight Championship (Total Extrme Nonstop Wrestling ) (Creating deletion discussion page for World Heavyweight Championship (Total Extrme Nonstop Wrestling ). (TW))
- 2011-05-10T16:17:49 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of fictional characters named Sarah or Sara (Creating deletion discussion page for List of fictional characters named Sarah or Sara. (TW))
- 2011-05-08T11:14:40 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Early Earth Federation mobile suits in the Gundam universe (Creating deletion discussion page for Early Earth Federation mobile suits in the Gundam universe. (TW))
- 2011-05-07T16:28:39 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hung's adjustment (Creating deletion discussion page for Hung's adjustment. (TW))
- User:Donald Schroeder JWH018
- 2010-09-16T21:43:12 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Starscream (other incarnations) (Created page Fails WP:GNG. An unhealthy dose of original research as well. Lacking in credible sources.)
- 2010-09-16T21:34:17 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Razorclaw (Created page Contested Gobots prod. I'm taking this one all the way. Delete.)
- 2010-09-16T21:16:59 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joyride (Transformers) (Created page Another obscure, non-notable Gobots character. Is wikipedia run for the benefit of fifth graders? )
- 2010-09-16T21:11:13 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Groundshaker (Transformers) (Created page Non notable Gobots article. Fails GNG and all wikipedian standards.)
- 2010-09-16T21:07:04 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Warpath (Transformers) (Created page Original research, go-bots spamcruft, non notable, fails GNG, fails pretty much all civilised standards.)
- 2010-09-14T14:55:40 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cliffjumper (Created page with Non notable fictional character, fails GNG, and no reliable secondary sources comment upon it.)
- 2010-09-13T04:51:46 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Race Car Patrol (Created page with Non notable Go-bots cruft. And you know what Randall Graves said about the Go-bots.)
- 2010-09-10T01:41:43 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sonar (Transformers) (Created page Fanboycruft.)
- 2010-09-09T18:40:36 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Soft sell (Created page with Original synthesis, original research and whatnot.)
- 2010-08-22T02:51:56 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Modern didgeridoo designs (Created page with Completely superfluous page. What little is of value (very little I may add) can be safely transferred to the a...)
- 2010-07-30T03:12:25 (diff | hist) N Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia is amoral (Created page with Ostensibly an "essay" but blantant POV/agenda pushing, this page advances the cause of the project not, and shoul...)
Unscintillating (talk) 05:00, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
- Again, these are just examples of single editors and are in no way necessarily representative of common behavior by banned editors. If there is a banned editor who continually starts inappropriate XfD's at a high rate, then that is a problem with that editor, not necessarily with the XfD process itself. Therefore, your solution to the problem should be to deal with that editor, rather than proposing a change to the XfD process which is in conflict with common sense, and which fixes a problem which hasn't been shown to actually exist. And no, 10 XfD's in a month is not notably high. Prolific new page patrollers routinely start dozens of XfD's in a month. For instance, I nominated 27 articles for deletion in December 2010. —SW— spill the beans 01:36, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
- The community has already had to "deal with that editor", that is why they were banned, we don't want them back with socks making edits of any kind, especially disruptive AfD nominations that take an enormous amount of the time of other editors. Pretending that the problem doesn't exist or that it will stop as long as we allow the AfD nominations to run, or that the AfD noms of banned sockpuppets are somehow like new page patrolling; I think serves to promote the work of banned editors at the expense of the time of the volunteers who contribute at AfD processes. Unscintillating (talk) 15:35, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
- Again, these are just examples of single editors and are in no way necessarily representative of common behavior by banned editors. If there is a banned editor who continually starts inappropriate XfD's at a high rate, then that is a problem with that editor, not necessarily with the XfD process itself. Therefore, your solution to the problem should be to deal with that editor, rather than proposing a change to the XfD process which is in conflict with common sense, and which fixes a problem which hasn't been shown to actually exist. And no, 10 XfD's in a month is not notably high. Prolific new page patrollers routinely start dozens of XfD's in a month. For instance, I nominated 27 articles for deletion in December 2010. —SW— spill the beans 01:36, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
Edit warring and consensus
A hard thing that currently plagues the project is the fact that we have no clear way to deal with people edit warring to enforce consensus. I'm sure this is a kink in the BRD cycle.Jasper Deng (talk) 19:37, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- Could you just clarify what do you mean by "deal with". Do you mean to stop them or to allow them to edit war?--SabreBD (talk) 19:47, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- When a user is edit warring to support consensus, should that user be given an exemption? What kind of consensus should be cited?Jasper Deng (talk) 19:48, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- I think that there cannot be an exception to the WP:3RR, or edit wars would rapidly escalate. However, I have argued elsewhere that the 3RR is flawed as in most cases it is interpreted literally as three reverts, not three of the same edits, so where a single editor is supporting an existing consensus the rule means that non-consensual changes are left on the article in question when the reverts have been used up. It is normally an accepted part of any negotiation that the status-quo anti stands in the event of a disagreement. In other words it should the first change should clearly count as a "revert". That might help solve this problem without resulting in more and longer edit wars.--SabreBD (talk) 19:58, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, I often thought exactly that. It's surprising that the person who "begins" an edit war (if only 2 editors are involved) will in effect "win". DeCausa (talk) 20:07, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- How about this: We make the initial edit a "revert", and block both editors if both reach 3RR under that definition.Jasper Deng (talk) 20:44, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, I often thought exactly that. It's surprising that the person who "begins" an edit war (if only 2 editors are involved) will in effect "win". DeCausa (talk) 20:07, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- I think that there cannot be an exception to the WP:3RR, or edit wars would rapidly escalate. However, I have argued elsewhere that the 3RR is flawed as in most cases it is interpreted literally as three reverts, not three of the same edits, so where a single editor is supporting an existing consensus the rule means that non-consensual changes are left on the article in question when the reverts have been used up. It is normally an accepted part of any negotiation that the status-quo anti stands in the event of a disagreement. In other words it should the first change should clearly count as a "revert". That might help solve this problem without resulting in more and longer edit wars.--SabreBD (talk) 19:58, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- When a user is edit warring to support consensus, should that user be given an exemption? What kind of consensus should be cited?Jasper Deng (talk) 19:48, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- I have long advocated for ignoring WP:3RR and just using WP:EDITWAR as the rationale for all of these blocks. In the something like 4 years I have been an admin, I have never even once tried to cite WP:3RR as a rationale for a block, and many people above have hit on its key weaknesses. The issue should only be is there enough evidence that you are going to return your preferred version of the article again. If that is the case, you get blocked. Period, end of story. The person who wins should always be the person who is willing to allow the version they DISAGREE with to be the publicly viewable version. If neither person involved in the war shows that willingess, block them both. --Jayron32 21:00, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- 3RR works well with new or unregistered users, but doesn't work for experienced users, in my opinion.Jasper Deng (talk) 21:02, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- A example in the case of "recently" unfolding events causes many problems. Many editors come in just after the episode ends to the current season Hell's Kitchen (U.S.) and try to insert extra coloring, footnotes, and styling to the contestant progress section. After the previous season concluded we had a RFC to standardize the color scheme and what content would be in the section. While few people participated in the RfC, it went to 30 days and was closed with a definite consensus. In the past 4 weeks I've personally come up to the 3RR line on the current season the days after the show gets published because a random IP address or a newly minted user decides they want to add their own coloring to the section. Each time I revert their changes I point that the consensus established and remind them that they need to discuss a change before they decide to do it again. I've added a section on the talk page of the current season explaining the consensus and invite editors to join the conversation. Does it help? Hell no New random IPs and Editors drop in and re-institute their style and I'm stuck sitting on 3RR. Hasteur (talk) 21:30, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- There's WP:RFPP. If you can explain the details of the problem, link to the consensus, and show a chunk of the history page and/or diffs showing the problem, you do make a good case for semiprotection. If presented with the evidence that this is a problem, then I would protect it if I came across a case like that at WP:RFPP. --Jayron32 03:58, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- I would like to ask Jayron more about his modus operandi, but this is probably not the place. Semi-protection of course will only solve the problem with ips and unconfirmed accounts, useful though that might be in some cases, it doesn't help at all in others. The other issue is that resolution of the kind of issues we are talking about here tends to place the burden to start some lengthy and complex process on the editor who is trying to protect consensus. To be honest I usually don't want to spend my time doing that, particularly as my experience is that not all admins are as assiduous as Jayron in actually assessing evidence. In any report process Wikipedia admins have a tendency to take a "you must both be guilty" stance reminiscent of bad teachers of my youth, and why would anyone put themselves up for that? Getting back to policy changes, would a clarification of the 3RR, as suggested above (i.e. the first change counts) help in these sorts of cases and is there any mileage in trying to get that changed/clarified? On the positive side it means that at the end of a 24 hour period the version of the preceding consensus will stand, or a single editor changing it will have broken the 3RR with its consequences. This might be a good way of getting them to participate in discussion on the talkpage or to have to accept that a consensus still stands. On the downside, will experienced editors use this to avoid change, knowing that they will always get the version they want? They could, potentially stonewall indefinitely.--SabreBD (talk) 10:11, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- There's WP:RFPP. If you can explain the details of the problem, link to the consensus, and show a chunk of the history page and/or diffs showing the problem, you do make a good case for semiprotection. If presented with the evidence that this is a problem, then I would protect it if I came across a case like that at WP:RFPP. --Jayron32 03:58, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- How do you define which editor of two is "edit warring to enforce consensus"? Per WP:AGF both are correct, if two can not agree get a bigger audience, if a bigger audience will not attend or participate, then neither is of the two editors are on firm "edit warring to enforce consensus". Jeepday (talk) 14:08, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- Was that directed to me or in general? I don't try to define it. The point of the suggestion on the 3RR is that it should mean that the status quo ante should (usually) stand until some agreement is reached. Also AGF doesn't mean that both sides are right, just that they are acting in a genuine attempt to improve, without defining consensus. The problem I see with having an exception to the 3RR on the grounds of consensus is that there is no objective measure. On the other hand when one editor is saying - "please take it to the talkpage" and the other is just reverting it should be obvious to a third party in most cases. I say in most cases because I have been in a situation where editors have posted on the talkpage and basically just said - "I am right, you are wrong" then reverted, in these cases they have to be followed quite closely.--SabreBD (talk) 14:24, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- 3RR doesn't favor the status quo ante, which is usually called the "prior consensus version", even though the existence of a dispute strongly indicates that there is no longer a consensus for that prior version. 3RR favors majority rule: if there are two on your side, and one on mine, then you can each "safely" revert my changes twice, while I'll end up blocked for 3RR, but you won't. When you don't have a 2:1 advantage, then our policies honor whichever mature person is able to find the talk page first, even if that means voluntarily leaving the article at m:The Wrong Version in the meantime. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:07, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- Was that directed to me or in general? I don't try to define it. The point of the suggestion on the 3RR is that it should mean that the status quo ante should (usually) stand until some agreement is reached. Also AGF doesn't mean that both sides are right, just that they are acting in a genuine attempt to improve, without defining consensus. The problem I see with having an exception to the 3RR on the grounds of consensus is that there is no objective measure. On the other hand when one editor is saying - "please take it to the talkpage" and the other is just reverting it should be obvious to a third party in most cases. I say in most cases because I have been in a situation where editors have posted on the talkpage and basically just said - "I am right, you are wrong" then reverted, in these cases they have to be followed quite closely.--SabreBD (talk) 14:24, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- "Not nearly enough." ;-)
- The community's advice generally recommend discussion, and the person choosing discussion is the person best complying. Being willing to stop edit warring and discuss disputes improves the person's reputation—a matter of honor, not (necessarily) of improving the likelihood of winning (except to the extent that your reputation influences other editors' willingness to listen to your opinions). WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:39, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
(Undent)Jayron, you said above: "The person who wins should always be the person who is willing to allow the version they DISAGREE with to be the publicly viewable version." I need help understanding this. Suppose a person is willing to allow the version they DISAGREE with to be the publicly viewable version, so they stop reverting. Even if that person can and does prove at the article talk page that consensus supports their version, the other version is allowed to remain, the other side refuses to concede, no admin wants to get involved, and the publicly viewable version eventually becomes a de facto consensus version due to not being reverted. How exactly is that a "win" for the person willing to allow the version they DISAGREE with to be the publicly viewable version?Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:43, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- You have to be willing to leave the "wrong version" of the article visible while the consensus discussion takes place. After consensus determine which version is correct, you publish that version. The winner is the person who is willing to discuss instead of revert. They win by not being blocked. The loser is the person who refuses to discuss, and instead operates by forceing their version. They lose because they get blocked. If you want to win, you should be willing to win later. People who need to win right this second always lose. --Jayron32 04:48, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
- I think what is actually being pointed out here is, what if talk page consensus for a version has already been achieved and other editors are still edit warring for another version. Are the people who are keeping the article at the consensus version per the talk page still liable for breaking 3RR, considering they are following an agreed upon talk page consensus already. SilverserenC 05:14, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
- If you have an edit war, then you don't actually have a consensus. If by "consensus" you mean something less than an agreement that all parties voluntarily accept, such as when three editors agree on a version, but a fourth is determined to get his way despite everyone else's objections, then those three need to divide up the reversions to keep themselves on the bright side of 3RR while they are engaged in the sometimes lengthy process of locating an admin who understands that even slow-motion edit warring is harmful to the project, and is willing to block the recalcitrant edit warrior. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:34, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
- But it shouldn't be like that. Consensus should win out even if the people who reached that consensus are not available or willing to engage in edit-war-like tactics. If there is clear evidence (like a past discussion) that consensus is for a particular version, then someone who restores that version should be exempt from any sanction, and someone who edit wars against it should be very quickly sanctioned, regardless of any technical rule like 3RR (provided they've been made aware of the claim of consensus and still keep fighting it). Of course in most edit-war situations there isn't an explicit past consensus to be pointed to.--Kotniski (talk) 10:30, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
- If there really is a consensus, then there should be plenty of people who are willing to share the reversion work. If only one person is willing to do it, then that suggests that any apparent agreement on the talk page is not as strongly supported as it looks. Also, 3RR exists because reverting is bad for the database. We don't want any avoidable reversions. We don't really want to exempt anyone from 3RR if we can help it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:25, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- Repeated "reversion work" is tedious, time-consuming, and often viewed by admins as disruptive "edit-warring" just as much as the opposite reverts by the minority editor; those are the main reasons why responsible editors often refuse to "share reversion work". The situation gets even more difficult if the longstanding consensus version of the article is not very popular but the alternatives have even less support.Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:14, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
- If there really is a consensus, then there should be plenty of people who are willing to share the reversion work. If only one person is willing to do it, then that suggests that any apparent agreement on the talk page is not as strongly supported as it looks. Also, 3RR exists because reverting is bad for the database. We don't want any avoidable reversions. We don't really want to exempt anyone from 3RR if we can help it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:25, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- But it shouldn't be like that. Consensus should win out even if the people who reached that consensus are not available or willing to engage in edit-war-like tactics. If there is clear evidence (like a past discussion) that consensus is for a particular version, then someone who restores that version should be exempt from any sanction, and someone who edit wars against it should be very quickly sanctioned, regardless of any technical rule like 3RR (provided they've been made aware of the claim of consensus and still keep fighting it). Of course in most edit-war situations there isn't an explicit past consensus to be pointed to.--Kotniski (talk) 10:30, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
- If you have an edit war, then you don't actually have a consensus. If by "consensus" you mean something less than an agreement that all parties voluntarily accept, such as when three editors agree on a version, but a fourth is determined to get his way despite everyone else's objections, then those three need to divide up the reversions to keep themselves on the bright side of 3RR while they are engaged in the sometimes lengthy process of locating an admin who understands that even slow-motion edit warring is harmful to the project, and is willing to block the recalcitrant edit warrior. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:34, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
- 3RR is good for newbies but not other edit wars. There's a lot of brinksmanship and long-term tactical maneuvering. For now, the best thing is to say "edit wars default to the version before the edit war began". In most cases, everyone else basically likes the page as it is now, but only two editors are paying attention. There are other cases where the page is totally unworkable and both editors need to compromise but that's a much deeper problem that can't be addressed just here. Dzlife (talk) 15:22, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
- It's hard to define the beginning of an edit war especially for long-term wars.Jasper Deng (talk) 16:09, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
I think in order to prevent the initial editor (the one starting the war) from winning due to 3RR, let's put him/her under 2RR restrictions in situations like the following: User A edits, is reverted by User B. User A reverts and gets reverted by User B. User A reverts again and is reverted by User B. Now User A, under 3RR, could "win" by using his/her third revert to bring back his/her version.Jasper Deng (talk) 16:09, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
- If I believed that most changes were bad, I might agree to that. But I don't. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:25, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
The problem here is that the whole idea that we can decide edit wars (content disputes) by counting reverts (or by counting heads) is flawed. 3RR or any variants thereof should be seen as just a stopgap measure until we have a rational means of resolving such disputes that puts the quality of the encyclopedia first and editors' personal agendas last.--Kotniski (talk) 08:09, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
- 3RR also leads to editor biting at time. But in any case, I believe we must base policy reform on who is right and/or how relevant policies to the particular content dispute apply.Jasper Deng (talk) 03:09, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
An official policy on inclusion of the sexual preference of public figures (when appropriately sourced/cited)
There has been a consensus reached long ago by Wikipedia that if a person of note/public figure has established they are GLBTQ in such a fashion as to be reliably sourced or cited, it is encyclopedic and valid for inclusion in their article. The reasons for this have been debated back and forth so many times, it has become exhausting. There needs to be an absolute and stated policy on this issue put into Wikipedia somewhere so that it can be referenced and these arguments can be avoided from now on.
GLBTQ people are a minority, and unlike minorities based on race or gender, they are not a minority that can be identified by sight. Because of this, it is a simple fact that all people are by and large presumed to be heterosexual unless otherwise stated. One of the straw man arguments you often hear is 'We don't state in every heterosexual's article that they are straight." That's because we don't have to, because - again - it is presumed unless otherwise stated.
The contributions of GLBTQ individuals to the arts, history, politics etc... are valid, and establishing their sexual identity is encyclopedic because the contributions of GLBTQ people should be documented. Even in California they have passed a law so that schools music include curriculum about the contributions of GLBTQ individuals. If we don't state that a person is gay within their biographical information, we disassociate them from the documenting of the accomplishments of gay people.
The fact that the Luke Evans (actor) page has been locked down and all information to his sexual preference removed is insulting and borders on offensive. The citation from his interview in The Advocate magazine is more that sufficient. The ludicrousness of this is so outrageous that it has attracted attention in the gay press. The time is now for an official policy on sexual preference in biographies to be set: is it or isn't it worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia? CouplandForever (talk) 16:34, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- Evans' interview with Advocate is clearly a reliable source, and he discusses at length how being gay impacted his life. I don't see a valid reason for not including it in the article. It's a biography, not a C.V. postdlf (talk) 16:42, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- And if there is a clearer example of canvassing than this, I've not seen it... AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:43, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- Nonsense, and your presumption of bad faith is not appreciated. I couldn't care less about that specific article, other than my concern for the overall issue. It is simply the most recent in hundreds of articles that have spawned this ongoing argument, editing wars and lockdowns. Clearly an official policy on the matter is called for in order to prevent it in the future. CouplandForever (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:46, 10 August 2011 (UTC).
- And if there is a clearer example of canvassing than this, I've not seen it... AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:43, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- I could agree if there was an encyclopedic reason that we need to include someone's sexual preference, but I don't see that you've shown that. I saw the same sort of debate on including the religious beliefs of a person. If there's a reason it is relevant, then sure, include it, but if that isn't relevant at all to the article, then leave it out. -- Avanu (talk) 16:48, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- @ CouplandForever: it isn't a 'presumption of bad faith', it is a statement of fact - you are canvassing. You had just posted exactly the same text on the help desk. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:50, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- I could agree if there was an encyclopedic reason that we need to include someone's sexual preference, but I don't see that you've shown that. I saw the same sort of debate on including the religious beliefs of a person. If there's a reason it is relevant, then sure, include it, but if that isn't relevant at all to the article, then leave it out. Wikipedia is not here for explicitly "documenting of the accomplishments of gay people" or Catholics or whoever in that sense, but to document human knowledge. If we follow your reasoning, it doesn't matter that a person had an outstanding career as a human being, but all that mattered was that they were homosexual. In a way, what you're say devalues the contribution of that person by just saying "they were gay", rather than saying "they were a talented actor, a wonderful cook, and a beloved father." Again, I'm not opposed to the inclusion of any information in an article, but unless we decide to document all sexual things, it doesn't seem to relate. -- Avanu (talk) 16:48, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- I posted it on Help Desk first, not understanding it should be posted here instead. After being informed of that, I posted it here. It is most certainly a presumption of bad faith; Assume Good Faith You couldn't possibly state that you could know for a fact what my intentions are. And all I see are straw man arguments left and right. To include the fact that someone is gay and indicate that is important and relevant is not to assert it is "all that mattered". Sexual preference is not a 'sexual thing'. It isn't a fetish. It isn't a sex act. It is an inherent part of someone's being. Above all else it is relevant biographical information. CouplandForever (talk) 17:04, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- You might make a better case for your argument if you didn't assert that being gay is "is an inherent part of someone's being" when applying it to a man who (a) is now reported to be in a relationship with a woman, and (b) has made it clear that he no longer wishes to discuss his sexuality in public: or does none of that relate to 'sexual preference' ? AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:09, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- (ec) If he had given an interview about how attending summer camp was an important part of his childhood, I don't think we'd be having this conversation. We don't limit biographies to just lists of notable accomplishments: they are about the subject, broadly. Here we have a subject who gave a full interview talking about being gay and coming out, and how that related not just to his personal and family life, but to his career. Simply repeating "it's not encyclopedic" isn't anywhere near a substantive argument. We don't just have a one-line statement "I'm gay," or third-party speculation, in which case you might have an argument (a better one, at least) for not including it in the article. And it isn't that being gay isn't "normal" or whatever, it's that it necessarily has an impact on someone's life. It's no less relevant to a subject than birthplace, where they went to high school (or even college) or any other "trivial" biographical details that are completely uncontroversial to include in an article yet typically don't relate to their notability in the way that a few here seem to be insisting upon for sexual identity. postdlf (talk) 17:12, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- Whether or not he is currently dating a woman or if he has chosen after the fact to no longer discuss his personal life does not negate the previously made public statements. Until he publicly states that he is no longer gay, the last published information from a reliable source has him saying that he is. CouplandForever (talk) 17:19, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- I think that's also off the mark; it's not a question of whether he "is" or "isn't" gay. He came out as gay in a 2002 interview, and that should be discussed in that context. Whether or not he still identifies as such (and whether he is in a relationship with a woman at present may or may not change that) is a separate matter. postdlf (talk) 17:24, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- Whether or not he is currently dating a woman or if he has chosen after the fact to no longer discuss his personal life does not negate the previously made public statements. Until he publicly states that he is no longer gay, the last published information from a reliable source has him saying that he is. CouplandForever (talk) 17:19, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- (ec) If he had given an interview about how attending summer camp was an important part of his childhood, I don't think we'd be having this conversation. We don't limit biographies to just lists of notable accomplishments: they are about the subject, broadly. Here we have a subject who gave a full interview talking about being gay and coming out, and how that related not just to his personal and family life, but to his career. Simply repeating "it's not encyclopedic" isn't anywhere near a substantive argument. We don't just have a one-line statement "I'm gay," or third-party speculation, in which case you might have an argument (a better one, at least) for not including it in the article. And it isn't that being gay isn't "normal" or whatever, it's that it necessarily has an impact on someone's life. It's no less relevant to a subject than birthplace, where they went to high school (or even college) or any other "trivial" biographical details that are completely uncontroversial to include in an article yet typically don't relate to their notability in the way that a few here seem to be insisting upon for sexual identity. postdlf (talk) 17:12, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- My only concern is that in establishing a policy, we forget the fact that these decisions, by necessity, need to be made on a case-by-case basis. Like you say, I have seen these discussions come up over and over again, and the problem is there is no one-size-fits-all solution that makes sense. With contentious identity issues like gender, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. the inclusion or non-inclusion can be equally contentious, so it isn't enough to say "if so-and-so says it, it must be included" or "unless (some random criteria) is true, it can never be included", because that's what a guideline or policy will do. When you enshrine some set of principles in writing, you immediately eliminate all possibility of flexibility in dealing with what is not a simple issue. The same arguement gets made both ways. Lets just invent a contentious identifier for a second. Lets pretend that blue eyed people have been a discriminated against category. Lets consider the opening sentence from two articles:
- "John Doe is an academy award winning actor, and is blue eyed."
- "Joe Bloggs is a serial killer, and is blue eyed."
- With article one, you get two responses. One side says "Being blue-eyed isn't significant to his being an actor," while the other side says "If you remove the information, you are trying to eliminate the contributions of blue-eyed people from the arts. You are marginalizing them!"
- With article two, you also get two responses. However, this time the role is reversed: The side that just argued, with the prior article, that removing information about his blue-eyedness amounts to marginalizing blue-eyed people, that SAME group of people will now begin arguing "You shouldn't include this information! It will only serve to perpetuate the stereotype that blue-eyed people are all criminals, and have nothing to give to society!"
- See, if someone are a defender of blue-eyed rights, they end up speaking out both sides of their mouth: On the one hand, they demand that information about blue eyed people must be included in an article, because removing it means you are marginalizing that important trait. On the other hand, they demand that information about blue eyed be removed, because adding it perpetuates an untrue stereotype.
- I am not bringing this point up because I want to minimize the importance of having these discussions, or that there isn't a correct way to put together an article on each person. Far from it. There is a correct way to put together an article on each person who has an article at Wikipedia. However, there is not the same correct way to put together that article. Different people will have different levels of information regarding identity issues in their own articles, and what works in an article about one person may not be appropriate in an article about another. Once you have enshrined a standard in writing, however, you end up treating everyone with those same set of standards, so you will always create more problems than you solve.
- Lets take a slightly different contentious identifier: Someone as being Jewish. For some articles about some people, an indepth discussion of their Jewish heritage and status is very appropriate. Like say Maimonades or Elie Wiesel. Their Jewishness should take a prominent part of their article. For other articles, it may be appropriate to mention someone's Jewishness, but it shouldn't be given a place of prominence in an article: Perhaps a brief mention in a section titled "Personal life", but it shouldn't be part of the first sentence in the lead paragraph, or maybe not in the lead at all. Like, say Kevin Youkilis or Robert Kraft. And for some people, it wouldn't make any sense to mention being Jewish at all, like say when it isn't well sourced, or when their connection to Judaism is very tenuous (like information that their maternal great-great grandmother was a practicing Jew or something like that). You can replace any contentious identifier you want (black, transgendered, french, whatever) in this discussion.
- This doesn't represent binary choices: it is a continuum of choices, and that continuum of choices cannot be enshrined in a policy or guideline, which by necessity, must present some sort of decision tree for including or not including the information. The choice of what information to include in an article, what level of detail to go into, what prominence to give it in the article, how to tie it in to the rest of the article, etc. etc. etc. is far to nuanced for any policy or guideline to be written which will say "In situation A, you do B. In situation C, you do D." People need to obey more broad editing principles, such as consensus building and providing proper balance and accurately representing mainstream scholarship and quality writing and doing no harm to living people and working well with others even when you disagree with them. Every one of these issues is already enshrined in Wikipedia policy.
- I feel for you in this situation, CouplandForever. It is not an easy thing to be able to work through these issues, and to work with others in finding the proper balance in an article, especially when dealing with contentious identifiers like homosexuality. You are right: it is contentious, and at times Wikipedia editors do not behave in the best interest of the encyclopedia: they do have their own agendas to push, and aren't always interested in presenting the best possible article to the public to read. However, what I disagree with is the necessity to enshrine this singular issue with its own specific policy, which is unlikely to solve the problems you note with the one article that you are having problems with. Such a policy would only serve to make it harder (not easier) to make all articles at Wikipedia better, because it presents a one-size-fits-all solution to a problem which has far to many sizes for such a solution. Work within existing policies and guidelines is best here, because if they aren't working then it isn't the policies and guidelines that are the problem. It is proper enforcement thereof that is. Creating new policies will not fix THAT problem. --Jayron32 17:18, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- I certainly see the validity in many of your points, though I must again stress that I really truly was using the Luke Evans article as a prominent and recently notable example. Truth be told I had never even heard of him until today. The only thing I would disagree with is your 'blue eyed' example. The fact of the matter is that, at least in my understanding, something is either relevant or it isn't. If a prominent serial killer was identifiable as gay I would most certainly think that should be included in their entry. In fact, it usually is: Andrew Cunanan. In this way, I think policy would serve the purpose. Either it's relevant in all cases or it's relevant in none. I realize that's oversimplified, though, and you do make points as to why. The unending arguing is going to continue, though, unless some kind of guideline is established on this specific topic. CouplandForever (talk) 17:39, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- You've established that there is a problem: of that I have no doubt. However, you have not established that the problem is that there is an inadequacy in existing policy or guidelines. Per WP:CREEP, creating policies merely to create them is rarely a good idea. If the problem is not on of lack of guidance, but is one of lack of following the of existing guidance, we can create new policies until the cows come home; if the existing policies are not being followed by the people who are partaking in the debate in question, having an additional policy would do no good. What specific good would come from writing out another policy just so people can ignore it? We have lots of really good guidance on this issue, people just need to be reminded to follow it. --Jayron32 17:45, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- Other than pushing an agenda of better showing what homosexual people have done, what is the rationale for including such information in an article? I said the term 'sexual thing' above, because sexual preference can be all over the map. You can have standard categories, hetero, homo, bi, or others, and it could potentially become quite complicated. What do we do when we aren't sure of a person's sexual preference or have competing sources? You say that by leaving it blank it is the same as saying hetero, but honestly I don't see how sexual preference is relevant to most people's bios. Some people don't like to mention much of their private lives. Do you decide for them? Like I said, this isn't always as simple as it might seem at first. -- Avanu (talk) 17:49, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- What is your rationale for not including it, other than pushing the agenda that sexual orientation (since you seem to have issue with the term 'preference') doesn't matter? Just lots more straw man arguments going on here. If we don't have a reliable source then we obviously "aren't sure" of a person's orientation; thus we do not mention it in the article. If we have competing sources, we cite both of them - though frankly the only reliable source is going to be one where the individual himself has identified his sexual orientation, and as such it is very unlikely there will be conflicting sources (this Luke Evans situation being extraordinarily unusual.) Frankly, I don't understand how any person could NOT understand the relevance. To me that simply indicates a lack of understanding on what it means to be gay. CouplandForever (talk) 18:06, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- Other than pushing an agenda of better showing what homosexual people have done, what is the rationale for including such information in an article? I said the term 'sexual thing' above, because sexual preference can be all over the map. You can have standard categories, hetero, homo, bi, or others, and it could potentially become quite complicated. What do we do when we aren't sure of a person's sexual preference or have competing sources? You say that by leaving it blank it is the same as saying hetero, but honestly I don't see how sexual preference is relevant to most people's bios. Some people don't like to mention much of their private lives. Do you decide for them? Like I said, this isn't always as simple as it might seem at first. -- Avanu (talk) 17:49, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- It doesn't "mean" anything. It is just a part of who a person is. Like having 10 fingers or 9. Or having brown hair or red. Maybe one day, we will understand what MLK meant by "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." The only thing any of this "means" is that we decide to have distinctions. Other than that, your actual achievements in life should be what we describe here on Wikipedia, not who you like to sleep with. -- Avanu (talk) 18:11, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- And your choice of wording has betrayed your lack of understanding. Sexual orientation is not about "who you like to sleep with." It is about which gender you are inherently attracted to, and thus fall in love with, build your life and relationship with, grow old with...just like a heterosexual relationship. The actual sex aspect of it is minimal; you would no more define a heterosexual relationship as all about sex. People who have 9 fingers or brown hair are not being slaughtered in countless countries (in acts sanctioned by their governments) because of that part of who they are. It is not the same. If you don't understand this basic truth, I don't understand how you can even try to have a voice in the discussion. CouplandForever (talk) 18:21, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- It doesn't "mean" anything. It is just a part of who a person is. Like having 10 fingers or 9. Or having brown hair or red. Maybe one day, we will understand what MLK meant by "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." The only thing any of this "means" is that we decide to have distinctions. Other than that, your actual achievements in life should be what we describe here on Wikipedia, not who you like to sleep with. -- Avanu (talk) 18:11, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- Au contraire, we would rather that it didn't mean anything, but wishing that and thinking that is NOT the same thing. No one has been fired from a job because they have red hair; no one is trying to pass laws which demand that red-haired people can't get maried or adopt children; as long as a gay person lives in a culture where that culture makes a REALLY BIG DEAL out of the fact that they are gay, we do a disservice to their biography at Wikipedia if we pretend as though it doesn't matter. It shouldn't matter, on that point I agree. But to say that it doesn't matter is an entirely different point. Wikipedia articles should reflect what is, not what we want to be. --Jayron32 18:22, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you. That was very well said. Chiming in here to (1) disagree that biographical articles are only about "achievements" (2) agree that a new policy isn't necessarily a good thing. (If we did come up with new rules, they almost certainly should only have guideline status, in any case.) When an article's subject has publicly identified his own sexual orientation, that is always going to be worth mentioning in the article, as long as it's reliably sourced. It may merit more or less prominence in a given article, but I'm having trouble imagining any subject for whom it should be excluded. Sometime in the future, if we get around to having a world where people truly are judged as individuals, maybe that will change. In the meantime, characteristics such as sexual orientation and race are key components of identity. Deliberately omitting a subject's sexual orientation from a biographical article makes about as much sense as leaving out their nationality or their age. @Avanu: in a world where powerful elements are hard at work to prevent King's dream from becoming reality, sleeping with the person of your choice, and being open about it, damn well is an achievement. Not so long ago, it was illegal. Lots of places, it still can get you killed. Rivertorch (talk) 19:23, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
I think there is a wider issue beyond gay/straight, which is where to draw the line between adding noteworthy information to an article and adding non-noteworthy information intending to push an agenda. Bio articles often include a 'Personal life' section with significant others, children etc. But not every bit of personal information that can found in the media should be put in an article. For example, it was once common to publish actress's measurements (just an example so don't quote me on it), but that information (usually) doesn't belong in an encyclopedia article. WP:IINFO covers this in a way but it seems to be limited to lists. If a 'List of people who are X' is unencyclopedic under this policy then it's also unencyclopedic to automatically add '(subject) is X' to every article where it applies. WP:IINFO seems a bit noncommittal on this and perhaps it should be rephrased to make it clear that its not just the form in which the information is listed which makes it unencyclopedic. We can't always know whether a specific edit is intended to push an agenda, but we can set criteria which say whether the information added is noteworthy and remove the issue of whether it's indented to push an agenda from consideration. To me, one condition is whether the information is coming from a source which is giving the information specifically about the subject rather than an indiscriminate list. For example, if the source is a book chapter on (subject) and there is a paragraph about the subject being X then the info is encyclopedic and should be in the article. But if the source is "The Directory of X" and lists 9,999 names besides the subject, most of which are not notable, then the information is not encyclopedic and should be removed from an article if added. In the Luke Evans case, I haven't read the interview but I'd say that if it includes more a couple sentences on whether he is gay then it's in the first category and belongs in the article. Conversely, if he happened to be straight and the interview went on for a paragraph or two about his "straight lifestyle" then it would be encyclopedic as well, but the media tends not to do that sort of thing (not counting The Daily Show).--RDBury (talk) 22:42, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- If the only source is a 'list of list of LGBT people' then obviously it shouldn't be included but if the subject himself has gone out of his way to make a statement about it, then I do think it's worthy of inclusion. Like it or not, a notable person coming out is still a big deal.
- ...."a notable person coming out is still a big deal". To whom? Moriori (talk) 08:37, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
- Reliable sources do. Wikipedia is only supposed to reflect the information gathered from secondary (some primary and tertiary) sources. We are not meant to add our own opinion to articles or to use that opinion to determine what should be included. If information is given significant coverage in reliable sources, then we cover it in the subject's article. SilverserenC 09:49, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
- I didn't really need to be told know how Wikipedia justifies inclusion of contentious info. I already know. What I wanted to know is who decides that "a notable person coming out is still a big deal". Perhaps we could also be told why the decision maker thinks it's a big deal. Is all. Moriori (talk) 20:42, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
- Um, the world? Society? I don't think there's a specific answer to who believes that it's a big deal, since it's sort of a general thing. Sexuality, religion, and ethnicity are the big three subjects that, for whatever reason, society considers to be of utmost importance and the news will go on and on discussing the minutiae of a person in regards to these three things for months. So, it's important because society at large considers it important, therefore, so should Wikipedia (when the news focuses on it as a subject). SilverserenC 21:06, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
- I didn't really need to be told know how Wikipedia justifies inclusion of contentious info. I already know. What I wanted to know is who decides that "a notable person coming out is still a big deal". Perhaps we could also be told why the decision maker thinks it's a big deal. Is all. Moriori (talk) 20:42, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
- Reliable sources do. Wikipedia is only supposed to reflect the information gathered from secondary (some primary and tertiary) sources. We are not meant to add our own opinion to articles or to use that opinion to determine what should be included. If information is given significant coverage in reliable sources, then we cover it in the subject's article. SilverserenC 09:49, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
- ...."a notable person coming out is still a big deal". To whom? Moriori (talk) 08:37, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
The problem with the Luke Evans argument which clogged up the BLPN (and that I was involved on) was that it was a editorial judgement issue that was being argued as a BLP one. That made it extremely difficult to find a resolution. I think we could do with just a sentence or two in the BLP reiterating that if there's a reliable source for the subject self-identifying then there's no BLP issue but that's inclusion is still down to the editors or something. That way, the discussion stays on the talk page and it remains a consensus issue, especially since what is and isn't encyclopedic can be quite subjective at times. AlbionBT (talk) 07:48, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
- I'm seeing a lot of heavy soapboxing in this discussion. To campaign actively against the visibility of notable LGBT people contributes actively to a serious problem. Most gay people in the developed world cannot marry, and outside the developed world have few human rights, and this situation is perpetuated by ignorance and invisibility. Of course LGBT sexual orientation is notable - in many countries it can get you executed, or beaten to death by your family. If the subject's orientation is in the public domain because they decided to come out, and this can be reliably sourced, it should be mentioned. So to repeat what postdlf said "Evans' interview with Advocate is clearly a reliable source, and he discusses at length how being gay impacted his life. I don't see a valid reason for not including it in the article. It's a biography, not a C.V." If Luke Evans has subsequently announced that he no longer identifies as gay, that should be mentioned as well. Rubywine . talk 13:17, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
- Kind of wrong. Sexual orientation is not inherently notable except inasmuch as it contributes to the subject's notability in other ways. Alan Turing's homosexuality, for example, is extremely notable due to how and why he died. Jodie Foster's, on the other hand, is essentially a non-event and should merit only passing mention at most, as the only notability her sexual orientation has is the years of rumour. Similarly, people like say George Takei or Chaz Bono have for one reason or another have made their sexuality part of their public image, and thus it becomes notable. I kind of also have to take issue with your interesting stance that there's a lot of soapboxing going on, followed rather quickly by your own soapboxing. Basically, as Jayron said above, this has to be taken on a case-by-case basis, and an official policy is thus probably a bad idea, unless said policy states that sexual orientation is only notable when it is part of (or the entirety of) the reason for the subject's notability in the first place. Otherwise it should be mentioned in passing only, if at all. (And lest you think I'm into whitewashing queer history, take a look at my userpage.) → ROUX ₪ 20:09, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Return of the magi
In what surely must be a triumph for Wikipedia, consensus has once more banished reality and rationality from the astrology pages, driving away all sincere editors, with a little help from administrators, delivering the whole shebang into the hands of the magi.
How did this come to pass? Gaming of the system? Gibber-jabber and endless circular arguments, underpinned by idiot interpretations of having to extend good faith and civility to deliberate and irrational gibberish merchants, driving away all but those with the agenda of legitimating astrology? Who can say, since administrator intervention played its own part in stripping away the encyclopaedic ethic, along with a few editors.
So, once more it's no longer true in the Wikiuniverse that astrology is a pseudoscience, or that it is concerned, at least in part, with commercially motivated practices aimed at parting fools from their money, based on claptrap and gullibility. No, no! It is merely the respectable study of mysterious cosmic causalities in human affairs.
And of course, with all rational critics of such bullshit banished, the consensus of three or four editors is all it takes to turn sense and science upside down to present the world with a Wikipedia exposition of astrology that sounds downright reputable.
No hint here that ‘Hermetic principles’ are derived from a mythical Hermes Trismegistus, carving arcane wisdom into a mythical Emerald Tablet (as you would). It’s all true, see! Is it just me or does this sound a bit like an unpublished Tolkien book?
A mere trifle, then, to abolish Sir Francis Bacon from the English Renaissance and to endlessly fork the astrology content into labyrinthine sub-pages to avoid even non-existent scrutiny.
And in the meantime one magus has even acquired his own personal Wikipedia vanity page, edited mainly by ... wait for it ... fellow magi. Maybe this will turn into a round-robin until all of them have personal Wikipedia pages. Robes and wizard hats in portrait photos optional. Then they could start quoting each others' authoritative, sage words on any number of topics.
Perfect. A case study of what rather shallow, mechanistic enforcement of WP guidelines has made of Wikipedia. All it would take to complete this picture of blithe profligacy is a reply to this post along the lines of ‘why doncha do summink ‘bout it’ or ‘you’re posting in the wrong place’, or maybe even a threat to ban me from posting about rationality at all.
Well, the answer is already out there: some editors have already put in as much effort as they’re willing to in representing rationality against self-appointed magicians and administrators willing to lend their authority to the nonsense being promoted in the astrology pages.
To any administrators watching, I'd say: This is YOUR mess. The superstitious nonsense in the astrology pages was put there on YOUR watch. The people who opposed the snake oil sales pitch where driven away by YOUR interpretations of Wikipedia guidelines. Now stand by what’s published to the world as received wisdom, or clean it up yourselves. It is, after all, a perfect illustration of what y’all have made of Wikipedia with your shallow, indolent lack of care about the responsibilities that ought to come with your white hats, spurs and six-guns.
To the more fundamentalist, literal-minded I'd say: at what point does it become irrational to back WP policy on consensus, neutrality and civility when they're used to abolish reality and rationality?
Right, I'm off to tea with the Red Queen, Baron Muenchhausen and Hermes Trismegistus to discuss what centuries we can delete from world history. Regards Peter S Strempel | Talk 23:55, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- I see discussion in the article of, for instance, scientific and theological criticism of astrology. There's not much in your long rant to get hold of, other than that you're feeling a little dissatisfied. (Probably just Mars transitioning to Venus, tee hee). If you'd care to ditch the non-specific whinging and point to diffs or discussions, mayb there is something that could be done. Whilst you're merely bellyaching, there's little that can be done for you. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:04, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
- This is still a work in progress; still being worked on fairly and collaboratively to ensure all points of criticism and modern exploitations are to be included (which Peterstrempel would know if he has been following the talk-discussions). The post above is so full of imaginations that it's not worth treating seriously. I have no idea what he means when he says: "with all rational critics of such bullshit banished" - the only topic-bannings I am aware of is one for a clearly disruptive editor. (Unless he is confused about the half a dozen editors simultaneously topic-banned in March - before his 'major copy edit' for supposedly favouring astrology). None of this makes sense so it's hard to tell exactly where the motive for this moan is coming form.-- Zac Δ talk! 16:11, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
- I don't know about this particular article, but the complaint is not limited to just one incident or one subject matter. A major limitation of Wikipedia is when an article includes only information that editors choose to focus on and completely ignores everything else. On one hand, it's freedom of choice, but on the other hand, it's BS at its finest. If anyone is interested, I can provide examples of what I'm talking about. I guess overall, Wikipedia is a true reflection of society as a whole, because this also happens in real life. I'd like to sit in on a Foundation meeting sometime and watch them sitting around the table laughing at us. This is probably one giant social experiment and we are the willing rats in a maze. :) My advice to Peterstrempel is to read WP:CHILL and WP:DGAF USchick (talk) 19:29, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
- This is still a work in progress; still being worked on fairly and collaboratively to ensure all points of criticism and modern exploitations are to be included (which Peterstrempel would know if he has been following the talk-discussions). The post above is so full of imaginations that it's not worth treating seriously. I have no idea what he means when he says: "with all rational critics of such bullshit banished" - the only topic-bannings I am aware of is one for a clearly disruptive editor. (Unless he is confused about the half a dozen editors simultaneously topic-banned in March - before his 'major copy edit' for supposedly favouring astrology). None of this makes sense so it's hard to tell exactly where the motive for this moan is coming form.-- Zac Δ talk! 16:11, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
USchick, your response was unexpected and refreshing. I had never seen the ‘don’t give a fuck’ advice before, and although I find Antandrus to be a little bit on the fatalistic side, it’s sage advice from someone who has taken far more beatings than I by a system characterised by another editor, Malleus Faturom, as run by children. In fact, I ‘d have to say that my beatings were largely self-inflicted because I give a damn about what we do here and what Wikipedia says to the world. My mistake. I see now that Wikipedia is a vast and anarchic playground for all sorts, some of whom aspire to no more than seeing their own gibber-jabber validated in a Wikipedia article.
Alas, I can’t just resign myself to what JP Sartre called the quietism of despair. Call it ego or smug pomposity, but I like to think that what I do and say here reflects at least some of my education and idealism about people and rationality. However, in keeping with your advice, my initial comment fell out of a thought process that already saw me recuse myself from the said article, and some others where Wikipedia guidelines were being applied almost as if in mockery of them: consensus being used to override rationality, and administrator interventions taking place like dictatorial fiat rather than sincere concern for verifiability, civility or encyclopaedic anything. The reply by Tagishsimon above is a case in point: requesting specifics and diffs says ‘I can’t be bothered reading the thing myself, nor do I want to make up my own mind about what it says, but I’m happy to adjudicate a dispute because all I have to do is apply guidelines mechanistically without regard to consequences for Wikipedia as a whole’.
This raises the question: should we all just flip the bird to guidelines as irrelevances and do whatever the hell we please here, so long as we can get away with it by gaming the system, allying ourselves with like-minded administrators, and putting the encyclopaedic endeavour a distant last to more immediate self-gratification or amusement? That seems to be the way we are being pointed by the gangs that have coalesced around the children with administrator rights Malleus Faturom referred to.
And yes, USchick, Wikipedia is exactly what we make of it, and therefore a perfect reflection of who we are as a group and as a culture. The best of it is very good, but you’ll have to excuse me for cringing at the worst of it, like gibber-jabber and the bone-headed pursuit of what Antony Beevor labelled ‘counterknowledge’ —
All this has coincided with what one might call the Wikipedia age. A populist notion has grown that anyone has the right to correct or change the truth according to their own beliefs. In a way, it is a democratic ideal taken to its most grotesque extreme, but in practice it is the opposite of democratic, because it allows the demagogue to exploit gullibility and ignorance.
— Antony Beevor, Real concerns, The Guardian, 25 July 2009.
This is eerily analogous to the use of consensus in Wikipedia to override rationality. What do we do when a consensus of editors says that two plus two equals five, or three? Do we just accept it silently? Back to a quietism of despair, eh? But that’s another debate.
My old man once told me that if he gained just one new idea or insight from a book he read, it had been worth the effort. Your post, USchick, certainly met that test, and I thank you for the reference. Stay well, Wikipedia probably needs more editors like you. Regards Peter S Strempel | Talk 21:59, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
- Peter, I'm very happy to lift your spirits, and I hope you'll remember me kindly, especially if our next encounter is an edit war. :-) Seriously, if in real life you are a high performer and aspire to excellence, and it sounds like you do, then yes, Wikipedia can be a very challenging place, since it is mostly populated by people with an attitude of doing the least amount possible, just to get by, and at the same time trying to see what they can get away with. So save your effort for whatever it is that you excel in and focus on whatever it is in real life that you can control. And remember that as conscientious as you may be, you can't control everything including the weather, solar flares, and Wikipedia articles. Now if only I can remember to do that myself! :) See ya around. USchick (talk) 23:11, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
wikispot
There is a outside website called WikiSpot that is somehow directly wikilinked. For example Hiking trails in Santa Clara County leads to http://sanjose.wikispot.org/Hiking/. There are about 90 such pale blue but otherwise not EL-looking links hither and yon in Wikipedia, some in See Also sections instead of External Links sections. Why are these links allowed, and why are they allowed to look like internal Wikipedia links? Speciate (talk) 06:38, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
- See Help:Interwiki linking for the feature, and meta:Interwiki map for the complete list of such sites. Per WP:SEEALSO they shouldn't be in See also sections. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:57, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
- As you point out, their color is different from internal links; they do lack the external link icon though. --Cybercobra (talk) 06:10, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
- IMO it's a bit slimy to camouflage external links as wiki-links to other articles. It doesn't seem like something that should be happening. Does anyone else feel like that?--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:28, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- Where we're talking about non-wikimedia sites, yup. --Tagishsimon (talk) 07:35, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- IMO it's a bit slimy to camouflage external links as wiki-links to other articles. It doesn't seem like something that should be happening. Does anyone else feel like that?--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:28, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
Additions to the Manual of Style or subpages
Generally, does one need a specific consensus from the community before adding anything to the Manual of Style or one of its subpages? Such as, "I want to add this to the MOS, any thoughts/objections?" --Rschen7754 00:29, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
- ANSWER: Yes, you guessed it. The only changes typically allowed in WP:MOS pages, without prior consensus, would be for obvious typos, such as fixing a misspelled word within an MOS page. Hence, users need to pinpoint where an MOS-style issue should be discussed, so click Template:Style to view links to the sections (sub-divisions) of the overall MOS, and then propose a change in the related talk-page section. -Wikid77 (talk) 20:08, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
Citing Databases and Creating Templates for Doing It
I'm busy translating an article from the French Wikipedia for the English version. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Heitz
The article has numerous citations to documents that the reader can find by clicking on links within the citation to French government databases available on the Web. One major one is Joconde, a database that is an index of all documents, works of art, etc. owned by the French Ministry of Culture. The French version of Wikipedia has a template for citing Joconde, and some other government databases on the Web: Template:Joconde
This template does not work in the English version of Wikipedia, so I'm assuming that a new English version of this template must be created by me and saved somehow to the English Wikipedia? But what is the policy under the English Wikipedia for citing databases? I've been searching for info and haven't found very much at all.
Please let me know where this type of issue is discussed... thank you!
OttawaAC (talk) 02:24, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
- It would be discussed at the talk page of WP:RS. To me, Joconde sounds like an eminently reliable source. And yes, you would have to recreate the template on the EN.Wikipedia. --Tagishsimon (talk) 03:01, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
- Preferably with any parameter names translated into English. --Cybercobra (talk) 06:11, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
- Seems like it's just a special case of
{{cite web}}
. As long as it's from a reliable source it should be allowed. We have templates like{{pubmed}}
and{{imdb}}
, for example. The template shouldn't be hard to make. It may be appropriate to include some kind of "title" field along with the ID, though, to make the links easier to use. —Designate (talk) 06:19, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
- Seems like it's just a special case of
- Preferably with any parameter names translated into English. --Cybercobra (talk) 06:11, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
Scholastic history book is not trusted?
I wrote about Gunpowder Plot used Scholastic's The Slimy Stuarts. Someone delete it because this source doesn't trusted. Scholastic's Horrible Histories (The Slimy Stuarts is one of these) has been used in U.K's school education. I know the article has win several award in Wikipedia. And Lady Antonia Fraser win some prize about this article. But if there is another theory, must Wikipedia covering the theory, isn't it??? And had my English was bad (since I'm originally Japanese), before delete, you must read the book. Is it not the Wikipedia style? --K84 (talk) 02:33, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
- K84 added a section called Doubt, the content of which is a suggestion that the King was behind the plot. It's an interesting assertion, and not one I have come across before. But, like whoever removed it from the article, I have reservations about accepting a childrens' history book as a reliable source. I think the way forwards might be to discuss the assertion on the talk page of the article, to see if anyone more familiar with the history has come across and can provide a reliable source for the assertion. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:58, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
- If the children's book author got the theory from a more academic source, then the better source should be used. If the children's book author invented it alone, it seems too fringe to be included in an article on such a well-documented subject. —Designate (talk) 03:02, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
- See also this reference desk post. --Tagishsimon (talk) 03:11, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
- If the children's book author got the theory from a more academic source, then the better source should be used. If the children's book author invented it alone, it seems too fringe to be included in an article on such a well-documented subject. —Designate (talk) 03:02, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
- The books are okey but they do tend to suffer from repeating common missconceptions.©Geni 03:26, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
- Ummmm. I thought it theory must be familiar since appeared in even the children's books. And I don't think highly of Lady Antonia Fraser's whole work. I've got tons of fatal error in Henry VIII's wives and Marie Antoinette. But I couldn't find the source of The Slimy Stuarts. If I found out more of the theory, that time I'll try again. Thank you, all of you.--K84 (talk) 13:13, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
- That title sounds a bit.... biased. :-> - Denimadept (talk) 02:03, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
- Ummmm. I thought it theory must be familiar since appeared in even the children's books. And I don't think highly of Lady Antonia Fraser's whole work. I've got tons of fatal error in Henry VIII's wives and Marie Antoinette. But I couldn't find the source of The Slimy Stuarts. If I found out more of the theory, that time I'll try again. Thank you, all of you.--K84 (talk) 13:13, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
Edit summaries MANDATORY?
I have recently been told that failure to leave edit summaries is a violation of policy and is considered a "disruption". I suppose according to the literal wording of the policy WP:EDIT it could be taken that way. However, it has never been enforced as such and since policy must DESCRIBE how Wikipedia actually works and not PROSCRIBE how it MUST, I would say that the policy is out of wack with actual practice. I open this discussion up to see what views are on the idea of "is it mandatory to leave edit summaries" or is it "greatly encouraged to leave edit summaries in the spirit of good will". There's a slight but meaningful difference. One is blockable and actionable by admins the other not. This thread is about this general topic, not specific problems people personally have with me not leaving edit summaries. Not everything is about me. (Well... just not in this case)Camelbinky (talk) 01:07, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
- No, it's not mandatory, just good etiquette. —Designate (talk) 01:11, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed, it's not mandatory. I'd be interested in hearing here from the person who told you it was. It's not even necessarily helpful, as people with naughty intent have been known to do one thing and say something quite else on the edit summary. Perhaps it's "mandatory" and it's required to be honest too? How is anyone going to validate that, I wonders. - Denimadept (talk) 01:47, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, found it. The way I see it, WP:EDIT#Be helpful: explain requests edit summaries to help understand an editor's intent. I don't see that as required. What I see is that the discussion this stems from got a bit acrimonious and someone else started picking nits, perhaps to save face. - Denimadept (talk) 02:00, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
- OK, thanks but really I would have preferred this keep on topic and not "discussion this stems from" because I see that as commenting on the editor not on the discussion. Again- this isnt about me, this is about the policy. Not meaning to be rude, but I find it in bad taste to bring the very thing I asked not to be brought here.Camelbinky (talk) 02:53, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
- Back to the topic then. I can't see the policy as being an outright assertion that edit summaries are compulsory, but it certainly implies that they are advisable - if you don't explain what you are doing, people are more likely to misinterpret your intent. I can think of few good justifications for not providing at least a minimal summary for anything that might be seen as contentious (apart from mine, which is simple cack-handedness - hitting 'enter' when I'm aiming for 'shift' or whatever... Doh! ) AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:25, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
- The actual wording of the policy is " Try to use an appropriate edit summary." So, no, not mandatory. However, as has been mentioned they are always a good idea when reverting as failure to provide a reason for your revert can lead to edit warring, and nobody wants that. You can adjust your preferences so that you are prompted to leave one if you should forget. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:26, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
When are names for technical methods and systems proper names and when are they not?
As I understand Wikipedia title guidelines, only proper names should be capitalized. There are a number of article titles about technical methods and systems that are fully capitalized (but most are not). Almost all of these methods and systems are identified by an acronym which may lead to incorrect capitalization in this project. I have been trying to figure out when one of these names is a proper name and when it is a common name so I can fix those that are incorrectly capitalized. I understand that this is a sensitive issue since the proponents of these methods may consider capitalization as a sign of distinction and validation. Here are some example titles with both proper and common name capitalization:
Software development
- Rapid application development
- Agile software development
- Extreme Programming
- Adaptive Software Development
- Dynamic Systems Development Method
Project management
- Critical path method
- Program Evaluation and Review Technique
- Graphical Evaluation and Review Technique
- Critical Chain Project Management
I see no examples of proper name capitalization for medical procedures though many have acronyms.
What determines whether a name is a proper name in this context? From proper noun lead sentence:
- "A proper noun or proper name is a noun representing a unique entity (such as London, Jupiter, John Hunter, or Toyota), as distinguished from a common noun, which represents a class of entities (or nonunique instance[s] of that class)—for example, city, planet, person or corporation)."
Is the uniqueness of these methods and techniques sufficient to make their names proper? Or does it require a legal brand name? Or ...? Jojalozzo 16:33, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
- Very difficult question. There are so many technical issues around the theory of reference. For a real answer you need to ask a theoretical linguist or a philosopher but I sincerely doubt they would give you a straightforward answer. The Manual of Style doesn't go anywhere near this. In your shoes, I would go with "Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization". Rubywine . talk 18:13, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
- To answer the specific query of "what of these ones?", I'd say lower-case the lot of 'em. To answer the general case, I think I'd go with Rubywine's suggestion of MOSCAPS. --Izno (talk) 06:02, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- The easiest thing to do is to follow the sources. If they all treat it as a proper noun, then we should, too. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:46, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- That makes some sense except many of these terms are capitalized because they are most often referred to by acronym not because they are proper names. Wikipedia style guidelines say we should not capitalize terms just because they have an acronym. So capitalization of these terms in sources does not indicate proper name status for terms that are referred to by acronym. Jojalozzo 02:56, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- The easiest thing to do is to follow the sources. If they all treat it as a proper noun, then we should, too. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:46, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I disagree. Sources will capitalize for their own reasons, or even for no considered reason at all. Wikipedia has a fairly anti-capitalization guideline, which is in line with most printed works, but technical manuals are more prone to capitalize jargon that we wouldn't. What's more, many of these sources are technical websites that have no style manual at all or have an incentive to capitalize the terms because they are part of their name. None of the items listed is a proper noun. The name of a technique or method is not going to be capitalized unless there is some special reason to do so. All of the capitalized examples above seem to be so, as Jojalozzo said, only because they are acronyms. -Rrius (talk) 03:45, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- Note the word "all" in my statement: if every single source capitalizes a spelled-out term, then it's probably a proper noun. If you can find one source that doesn't capitalize the spelled-out term, then it's not a proper noun. (Capitalizing the abbreviation itself is irrelevant.) It's easier to identify such cases if you've got lots of third-party sources available (and if you can't find any third-party sources, then the only relevant capitalization is "AFD"). WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:03, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- I still disagree. The flaws that can apply to one can apply to all. What's more, the sources are likely to be largely trade publications and websites for companies that capitalize on the technique, so they are all likely to be flawed. In any event, the logic is faulty: the fact that a lot of publications, including the ones we happen to use here, capitalize something does not mean that it is a proper noun. Once again, a lot of people capitalize things they are used to seeing as acronyms and initialisms; that does not make them proper nouns and certainly doesn't mean they should be capitalized at Wikipedia. Our capitalization rule is not follow sources, but rather to follow the MOS. It may be "easier" to just ape what sources do, but it is better to put the effort into following MOS. In this case, that is to put each listed item in lowercase. -Rrius (talk) 20:48, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- Note the word "all" in my statement: if every single source capitalizes a spelled-out term, then it's probably a proper noun. If you can find one source that doesn't capitalize the spelled-out term, then it's not a proper noun. (Capitalizing the abbreviation itself is irrelevant.) It's easier to identify such cases if you've got lots of third-party sources available (and if you can't find any third-party sources, then the only relevant capitalization is "AFD"). WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:03, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
I think there are a several reasons for capitalizing technical terms in source documents. Technical papers in engineering and computer science use capitalization for multiple purposes including
- focus attention on important concepts
- match terms with their acronyms
- confer unique identity to concepts, systems, methods, techniques and approaches
It's clear to me that the first two of these purposes are not covered by our capitalization guidelines. I think it's the third purpose that is giving us trouble since unique identity is one of the requirements for a proper name. I think the authors of these terms think their referents are unique entities but does that mean they are? Jojalozzo 03:34, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (capital letters)#Religions, deities, philosophies, doctrines and their adherents: "Doctrinal topics or canonical religious ideas that may be traditionally capitalized within a faith are given in lower case in Wikipedia, such as virgin birth (as a common noun), original sin or transubstantiation." Would this translate to other areas of the project? Jojalozzo 20:14, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Links and/or converting units of measure
There is an ongoing discussion about which units of measure shouldn't generally be linked. Guidance already addresses overlinking of units (based on obscurity, or presence of a conversion) but doesn't define which units are the worst offenders for overlinking. People are now debating a table listing specific units. More opinions are needed. Lightmouse (talk) 20:17, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Translation proposal
There is a proposal to re-write the WP:NONENG section of WP:Verifiability being discussed at Wikipedia talk:Verifiability#A_proposed_rewording_of_WP:NONENG_.232.
NONENG is the section that deals with the use of non-English sources to support article content. If someone challenges the non-English source, NONENG recommends that editors provide a quotation from the sources (if feasible; it's exactly what we do for sources that are written in English but aren't available free online), and it requests that editors provide a translation into English (again, if feasible).
NONENG says that professional translations/as published in a reliable source, are best, that translations by editors are second best, and machine translation, which does not work well for many languages, may be used as a last resort.
Some editors (all of whom appear to speak German, a language for which machine translation into English is particularly weak) would like to completely ban the use of machine translations for any purpose at all, unless "the Wikipedian speaks the source language and confirms the accuracy of the translation". If no Wikipedian who speaks the source language is available, then they would prefer that editors who do not speak the language of the source be given an unintelligible (to them) quotation with no translation at all, rather than a machine translation.
If you have opinions about this, please share your thoughts there. Thanks, WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:33, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
RFC on the bot-addition of identifier links to citations
There's been some kerfuffle about bots adding of identifier links to citations recently. Specifically, whether links to a topical database (aka things like arXiv preprints, Bibcode links to the Astrophysics Data System, Mathematical Reviews, PMC or PMID links to PubMed, SSRN, Zentralblatt MATH, etc...) should be added regardless of the topic of the Wikipedia article, or if bots should only add "topic-neutral databases" links (aka doi, JSTOR, ISBN, etc.), unless the bot can guarantee that the identifier links added are "topical".
Field | Citation |
---|---|
Astronomy | J. Cami; et al. (2010). "Detection of C60 and C70 in a Young Planetary Nebula". Science. 329 (5996): 1180. Bibcode:2010Sci...329.1180C. doi:10.1126/science.1192035. PMID 20651118. {{cite journal}} : Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help)
|
Chemistry | N. Sano; et al. (2001). "Synthesis of carbon 'onions' in water". Nature. 414 (6863): 506. Bibcode:2001Natur.414..506S. doi:10.1038/35107141. PMID 11734841. {{cite journal}} : Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help)
|
Mathematics | G.L. Cohen (1990). "On an integers' infinitary divisors". Mathematics of Computation. 54 (189): 395–411. Bibcode:1990MaCom..54..395C. doi:10.1090/S0025-5718-1990-0993927-5. MR 0993927. |
Medicine | F. Barré-Sinoussi; et al. (1983). "Isolation of a T-lymphotropic retrovirus from a patient at risk for acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS)". Science. 220 (4599): 868–871. Bibcode:1983Sci...220..868B. doi:10.1126/science.6189183. PMID 6189183. {{cite journal}} : Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help)
|
Physics | F. Abe et al. (CDF Collaboration) (1995). "Observation of top quark production in pp collisions with the Collider Detector at Fermilab". Physical Review Letters. 74 (14): 2626–2631. arXiv:hep-ex/9503002. Bibcode:1995PhRvL..74.2626A. doi:10.1103/PhysRevLett.74.2626. PMID 10057978. |
Each database cover different things differently, some contain "citation coverage" (aka "who cites this journal article"), and complement each other (citation counts will differ, and listings will not mention the same citing journal articles, as e.g. the bibcode link will cover "citations in physics & astronomy" journals, while e.g. the PMID will cover "citations in the medical field"), some might contain links to preprints, links to free digitized versions, etc... One could certainly argue that these identifier links do a great deal to established the reliability and verifiability of a citation and the Wikipedia article it is supporting in general.
There's also a great deal to be said about letting people choose which database they prefer. If someone familiar with mathematics databases runs across a Wikipedia article on astronomy, and one of the references is indexed in both the astronomy and mathematics databases, why should they be forced to use the astronomy database if they would rather use the mathematics database (despite the astronomy database link being almost certainly better). If someone familiar with medicine journals stumble across a mathematics citation which is indexed in both mathematics and medical database, why should they be forced to use the mathematics database if they would rather see what PubMed has to say about it? If someone from a physics background runs across a medicine citation, why should they be forced to use the medical database if they would prefer using something they are familiar with?
On the other hand, other people feel these identifier links do little more than clutter the citations and confuse the reader, and should be omitted (or at the least should not be added by bots) unless the identifier link can be guaranteed to be on a database that matches the topic of the the Wikipedia article, or that it requires human judgment to decide whether or not an arxiv/bibcode/PMC/PMID/MR/SSRN/Zbl link should be added to the citation. This would mean that in the relevant Wikipedia articles, you would see something like
Field | Citation |
---|---|
Astronomy | J. Cami; et al. (2010). "Detection of C60 and C70 in a Young Planetary Nebula". Science. 329 (5996): 1180. Bibcode:2010Sci...329.1180C. doi:10.1126/science.1192035. {{cite journal}} : Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help)
|
Chemistry | N. Sano; et al. (2001). "Synthesis of carbon 'onions' in water". Nature. 414 (6863): 506. doi:10.1038/35107141. {{cite journal}} : Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help)
|
Mathematics | G.L. Cohen (1990). "On an integers' infinitary divisors". Mathematics of Computation. 54 (189): 395–411. doi:10.1090/S0025-5718-1990-0993927-5. MR 0993927. |
Medicine | F. Barré-Sinoussi; et al. (1983). "Isolation of a T-lymphotropic retrovirus from a patient at risk for acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS)". Science. 220 (4599): 868–871. doi:10.1126/science.6189183. PMID 6189183. {{cite journal}} : Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help)
|
Physics | F. Abe et al. (CDF Collaboration) (1995). "Observation of top quark production in pp collisions with the Collider Detector at Fermilab". Physical Review Letters. 74 (14): 2626–2631. arXiv:hep-ex/9503002. doi:10.1103/PhysRevLett.74.2626. |
This would have consequences for bots such as Citation Bot (which could not add links to arXiv preprints, bibcodes, PMC links, or PMIDs automatically, like it's been doing for the past few years), Bibcode Bot (which would be restricted to astronomy & physics articles), and any future bot such as the hypothetical "SSRN-Bot" or "Mathematical Review-Bot" (which would be restricted to their topics), or users who run scripts to add identifiers to articles such as Rjwilmsi.
Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 15:45, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Comments
- Isn't a DOI enough? The links all point to the same journal article; the only difference seems to be some extra details about the citation counts and whatnot. We're not concerned about that as an encyclopedia, we're just citing the article. I mean, it's not even a big deal, so it's sort of depressing that people have been arguing about this, but to me it seems simplest if we use one standard link (e.g., DOI) as anyone who really cares about the other databases will know how to look for the same article on them. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 16:03, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- There are two main things a reader wants from a reference: (1) access to the abstract, (2) access to the full text. I am opposed to bots adding any links to references unless the bot has the intelligence to determine that (a) one of those two things is missing, and (b) the added link provides the thing that is missing. I do not believe that adding clutter to reflists is harmless: it makes them harder for ordinary readers to use. I have no objection to human editors adding whatever information they feel is helpful; my issue is only to having this done on a massive scale by bots. Looie496 (talk) 16:05, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- I strongly support adding Bibcodes and Arxiv ids to any and all references which are included in those databases. ADS is an excellent free resource which massively improves the chances of a reader finding a copy of the full text that they can access. Arxiv papers are not the 'final' version, but are always available for free to everyone. This is totally different to the DOI, which in almost all cases redirects to a journal website with an extremely expensive paywall. I'm less familiar with the other identifiers mentioned above, but see little harm in including them. There obviously has to be a line drawn somewhere (no point in have 27 different ids on every reference), but even the most extreme example given above is fine. Modest Genius talk 16:16, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- Oh and I should point out that both ADS and Arxiv cover a huge range of subjects, not just their 'traditional' strengths (in astronomy and particle physics respectively). Modest Genius talk 16:21, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- This RfC should've been presented without the pro-bibcode etc. rhetoric. Anyway, PMID/PMC and doi are all I would want/need to see in any bibliography. There's no need to give excessive alternatives; even without any identifier an average user could find any paper in seconds, but a doi and/or PMID provides handy one-click access without bloating the bibliography Jebus989✰ 16:18, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- Even on mathematics articles? And physics articles? Or social science articles? That's awfully self-centered of you. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 16:20, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think there is any 'pro-bibcode rhetoric' in the above. It does slant in favour of more IDs, but barely mentions Bibcodes more than any of the other IDs discussed. Modest Genius talk 16:25, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- You misquoted me, "pro-bibcode etc." was what I said. I mean the RfC is written primarily as an argument in support of adding a wide variety of accessions, and I hope it doesn't take me picking out sentences for you to realise that. As a non-mathematician, I know of no pubmed equivalent, but if I were to read such an article, and found only the doi, I would definitely try work up the gumption to click it, rather than perusing through 5 alternative links to the same article and choosing my favourite. I'll ignore the personal attack, but I remind you this is a request for comment, not an "agree with me or I will argue with you until you do" Jebus989✰ 19:14, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think there is any 'pro-bibcode rhetoric' in the above. It does slant in favour of more IDs, but barely mentions Bibcodes more than any of the other IDs discussed. Modest Genius talk 16:25, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- For reference, I'm for the addition of any and all links on any and all articles. I've edited physics & astronomy articles for as long as I could remember and the various PMIDs and MRs links have never bothered me. In fact I found them to be extremely useful in fixing citations or verifying that the references did support the text (or that they were reliable). It would be utterly catastrophic for Wikipedia to disallow bots to add these links by default. Medicine people would lose Citation bot's ability to add the PMID/PMC automatically. Astronomy (and related topics) people would lose Citation bot's ability to add bibcodes. Physics (and related topics) would lose Citation bot's ability to add arxiv preprints. Everyone lose, no one wins.
For anyone these links truly bother, that could easily be "fixed" with a skin tweak (monobook.js/vector.js). Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 16:30, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- Putting every single identifier known to man (as well is wikilinking what they are) does seem to produce a vast, confusing sea of messy links which will be meaningless (and possibly distracting) to the average non-academic reader. Idealy there would be a way of hiding these away like we do with ISBN numbers and special:booksources -where clicking on one link would bring up all appropriate identifiers.Nigel Ish (talk) 17:01, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- I appreciate seeing the two versions of the references side-by-side, which is quite helpful. I think that the default state should be the shorter, topic-specific format. The other way does, indeed, look overly cluttered. I can imagine a reader from the general reading public, not someone who is an aficionado of databases, but just someone wanting to read up on a subject, looking at the lengthier version and having a case of "too much information". I recommend making the topic-specific format the default, with the proviso that any editor may always add more manually, and any WikiProject, by consensus, may request that a bot add more to pages within their project. I also like Nigel Ish's idea of having more but hiding them. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:09, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- Interesting issue. I agree with Looie496 on what users want and that in the short run humans should make these decisions rather than have a proliferation of alternatives added by bots which 99% of readers wouldn't use. Yet the added content is definitely useful. Perhaps in the short run the links at the end of the biblio entry could be compacted, showing just (ArXiv)(PMID)(doi)(JSTOR), each linked to the appropriate source for that biblio entry. This avoids showing the full details of the code to every reader, and sticks to showing human-useful/readable content. Those details could be in HTML comments. In the long run I think this problem should not be solved right in the article, where it takes up vertical space and mind space, perhaps increasingly over time as the number of such outside sites grows. Instead it would be good if all those links the bot would have offered can be offered on the doi page or some wikimedia-specific intermediate page made available when the user clicks on the biblio entry. Might be created on the fly, or static. If static, the bots could add lavishly to that intermediate page and the bibliography user-interface would be uncluttered and easy to use. Not trivial to implement unfortunately. Wikisource might be friendly to it but their agenda is not directing-to-sources but rather offering the sources. (I see that Nigel Ish suggested this too during an edit-conflict. Hot topic!) -- Econterms (talk) 17:12, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- Let me be the third person to endorse Nigel Ish's observation that ideally the links should be there (because they really are useful to someone who knows what they mean) but hidden (because they are confusing clutter to people who don't know what they mean). --Joel B. Lewis (talk) 17:32, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- i support adding as many identifiers as exist. different people will have access to different databases. there might be some reasonable limits similar to books that make sense here also that might be simple enough to get broad support, but i'd rather have more identifier links that are possibly redundant than restrictive rules. generally for books with isbn, oclc and asin are not also listed. pmc and arxiv are really good and should always be listed if available. doi usually doesn't go to a full free-access copy, but many people have institutional access. jstor only shows the first page. pmid and bibcode show bibliographic info with an abstract. this is the first time i've seen the mr database and it doesn't look all that useful from this example. it looks like a link to a doi that goes to jstor. —Chris Capoccia T⁄C 17:36, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- I strongly oppose bots automatically adding any information to Wikipedia articles. Bots can never replace a living person. Bots are very useful tools that editors can use to research information (including citation information). However, a thinking person needs to review the bot results before the information is actually placed into an article. Even something as simple as a spell or grammar checker bot can cause all sorts of unexpected errors and problems. Blueboar (talk) 17:46, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- I think that Errant's comment on ANI and Nigel Ish's comment here have got to the bottom of this: we should focus on working out how we can configure a default display of the citation that is not crowded, while also allowing the option of displaying the full identifier information. That ought to give the simplified display desired by casual readers and (maybe at one click) the full information and options desired by more knowledgeable readers or researchers. I think this RFC should be to discuss how to display the information, not on whether it should be there in the first place. Rjwilmsi 17:53, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- Support adding a variety of identifiers/sources, but I want a way to reduce the "clutter". Since that seems to be a dominant issue here, something like this would be sufficient for me (trade-off seeing actual identifier values for space and broader choice):
- F. Abe et al. (CDF Collaboration) (1995). "Observation of top quark production in pp collisions with the Collider Detector at Fermilab". Physical Review Letters 74 (14): 2626–2631. arXiv:hep-ex/9503002. Bibcode 1995PhRvL..74.2626A. doi:10.1103/PhysRevLett.74.2626. PMID 10057978.
- becoming
- F. Abe et al. (CDF Collaboration) (1995). "Observation of top quark production in pp collisions with the Collider Detector at Fermilab". Physical Review Letters 74 (14): 2626–2631. arXiv. Bibcode. doi. PMID.
- F. Abe et al. (CDF Collaboration) (1995). "Observation of top quark production in pp collisions with the Collider Detector at Fermilab". Physical Review Letters 74 (14): 2626–2631. arXiv:hep-ex/9503002. Bibcode 1995PhRvL..74.2626A. doi:10.1103/PhysRevLett.74.2626. PMID 10057978.
- I also understand a certain identifier may be more useful than others based on the topic/journal, so something like
|primaryidentifier=doi
could be employed:- F. Abe et al. (CDF Collaboration) (1995). "Observation of top quark production in pp collisions with the Collider Detector at Fermilab". Physical Review Letters 74 (14): 2626–2631. doi:10.1103/PhysRevLett.74.2626. arXiv. Bibcode. PMID.
- I realize it's impossible to please everyone, but I also don't want "clutter" to come in the way of presenting our readers with a wide selection of database links. — HELLKNOWZ ▎TALK 18:06, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- As a note to the "let's tweak the information", that's fine and all, but you have to remember that Wikipedia should be for all people. "Compact links" such as [ [arXiv] [bibcode] [doi] [ISBN] [JSTOR] [pmid] ] will be horrible for people with screenreaders, and will be horrible when the page is printed. The only way to "tweak" it without affecting accessibility and print versions is to do it via skin tweaks (monobook.js/vector.js/etc...).Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 18:07, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- We should consider not only what readers see, but also what editors see. When the citation becomes of excessive size, the article becomes difficult to edit. The idea solution would be a link to a sort of automated source ombudsman, where a reader could specify which libraries are nearby and/or which databases the reader has paid access to, and the automated ombudsman would display which sources provide the full text at no incremental cost to that reader. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:12, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- Given that different users have different databases they can access, it seems obvious that "anyone can edit" implies that whichever such resources the user has available should be linked. For the fortunate few with institutional access to such databases that does not always extend to all databases or even all of a particular database. My access to JSTOR, for example, is only fulltext for a portion of the serials it contains. Providing diversity of linkages gives editors and readers the best possible chance of finding the source in a repository which is freely accessible (for them). When we choose to omit these links we effectively inhibit people who could otherwise read the source from doing so. That cannot be a constructive practice. A little blue on the screen is a small price to pay. I have no objection to hiding it in hovertext or some such technical approach so long as the linkage is easily available to users that want it. The issue of trusting humans more than bots to make the call misses the fact that many of our human editors are very weak at citations: we're still fighting naked urls! While it should be simple for a human editor to remove links that don't work, and bots should respect such decisions, humans should not delete them simply because a link didn't work for them. Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request shows us everyday the utility of pooling access. LeadSongDog come howl! 18:14, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- Comment on fancy display technology: this is a red herring and can't help us. Wikipedia pages need to work also as PDFs (onscreen with simple hyperlinks or printed out on paper); on a variety of mobile devices which may not support the concept of "hover"; on browsers where JavaScript is disabled, with screen reader technology, and where the Wikipedia page is being mirrored by another website. Any option that requires an account (such as a user-specific skin tweak) is also a non-starter as nearly all of our readers are not logged in. It is an important attribute that one can select the display text and copy/paste it: something that popup bits would make impossible. Colin°Talk 18:54, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- Comment—Perhaps we could wrap the identifiers with an inline expandable display? See here for example. This way the text would normally be hidden unless somebody wants to look up the reference. Regards, RJH (talk) 19:19, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- Don't know if that could be done, but the default should be the expanded start, otherwise this would create a drastic clash between "manual" citations and template citations. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 19:41, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- Leaving it default expanded would make it pointless to implement; no viewer is ever going to go through the list and contract the views. But "manual" citations could probably implement this using a separate template for inline identifiers. RJH (talk) 20:37, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- Don't know if that could be done, but the default should be the expanded start, otherwise this would create a drastic clash between "manual" citations and template citations. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 19:41, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- I oppose bots adding these links to articles until the clutter is reduced by appropriate template magic/user preferences/CSS. Once such a solution is implemented, I will change by !vote to support. CRGreathouse (t | c) 19:21, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- Something similar to what RJHall and Nigel Ish said would be the best course to take here: give all citation databases and let the reader pick which one to use. Edge cases such as the ones Colin identified can still see the current format. That said, getting to the crux of the issue, I don't see a point in removing existing bibcodes/PMIDs because of a few editors' perceptions of the utility of the citation databases. Give the readers more credit. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 19:33, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- If we do go down the 'keep them but reduce the clutter' route, could it not be hidden behind a 'show/hide' bit of Javascript, like collapsed navigation boxes? That way it still shows up when printed / on screen readers, but reduces the clutter for everyone else. Modest Genius talk 19:34, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- Show/hide boxes work exactly the same on modern screen readers as they do for other people. I would favour keeping the links expanded as they are now, if only because we shouldn't add more bloated JavaScript to pages if we can help it; the citation links don't cause any problems for screen readers. I don't have any strong opinions about which databases should be used. Graham87 00:30, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- Support - Information is good. —SW— express 20:25, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- Certain of these identifier can be assumed to be topical: (1) arXiv: if an article is on the arXiv, then the author put it there, (2) MR (aka Mathematical Reviews) & Zentralblatt: only lists math articles, so for any article that has an MR, the MR should be topical. I don't know enough about the other identifiers to say, but I don't think that non-topical identifiers should be automatically listed, except for ISBN and DOI (ISSN, too maybe?); by which I mean, I think it would be better to keep the displayed identifiers restricted to topical ones, ISBN, and DOI, but I'm all for adding other ones to the source code, but have them commented out, or somesuch. Additionally, at least the two identifiers I have listed provide useful information that I believe should be linked to from the citation on wikipedia, (and if a bot can do it instead of me, I'm all for that). For the arXiv, this includes a free copy of the paper (though they are sometimes not the same version as the print copy), and for MR & Zbl, this (almost always) includes a summary of the paper, as well as a link to the papers that cite the paper in question. RobHar (talk) 20:30, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- The only requirement we have for citations is that they identify the source of the text used to write the article text. A plain text standard printed citation or a raw URL both satisfy this requirement, though each can be improved upon. We are careful not to add external links to articles just because someone thinks they are useful and similarly we should be careful not to turn our References section into an external link farm. We are an encyclopaedia, not a compendium of journal database links. Perhaps folk should put pressure on the various journal database websites to do some cross referencing themselves. It shouldn't be too hard for PubMed to link to ADS, say. After all, indexing journals is their job, not ours. As Looie496 says, the aim of our convenience links should be to give the reader access to the full text and the abstract. Access to the full text is complicated by the fact that nearly all our readers will lack the necessary subscriptions for subscription-only texts, or the text may not be online at the publisher's website. So services like PMC and arXiv provide a backup for the full text. The databases themselves provide useful functionality but this is very much secondary to our purpose. There is a strong consensus for linking to PubMed for bio-medical papers and I dare say the same goes for astronomy/physics papers and the ADS. If the paper is only indexed in one of the databases, then there is probably merit in linking without considering the topic of the paper.
The bot should only perform actions where there is a clear consensus and where the edit is useful. So unless we come to a consensus that linking to PubMed and linking to ADS is desirable always, then the bot needs to work out what kind of paper the citation is for. A bot could use the journal to decide the topic in most cases. For journals like Science and Nature, that cross the fields, then the WP article may give a clue as to whether the paper is a life or physical science topic. I think using only the WP article as a guide is rather crude and only reliable for a subset. So, in summary, PMC/arXiv are probably always useful unless the bot can tell that a link to a free online full text is already present. DOI is always useful. Where both a PMID and bibcode are possible, the bot should consider the journal and possibly additionally the article topic and pick the most appropriate -- and if unsure then don't add. -- Colin°Talk 20:37, 15 August 2011 (UTC) - I'd like to see PMID links and ISBNs whenever possible, even for non-medical articles (which might, after all, contain some medicine-related information). I don't care about the others, but I suspect that if I always want to see links to foo, then someone else will always want to see bar, so I'm in favor of listing everything as the default. There should, however, be some sort of opt-out system, like an invisible template that editors can place in an article to say "Bibcodes (or whatever) not wanted in this article, thanks". WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:45, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- Support If you can get a source for free then its a no brainer to add the (legal) links --Guerillero | My Talk 21:32, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- Support. More pointers is better than none or a few useless ones, which can still be deleted manually if they are a splinter in an editor's mind, right? Peter S Strempel | Talk 22:55, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose Bots should not be doing controversial edits. The important stuff here is the citation; once that is given, all other links are convenience. Adding a lot of them makes the citation itself, which can be used in whatever tool the reader has available, harder to find; if, as some arguments here would suggest, we add links to every conceivable citation system, our articles will be buried in kilobytes of linkcruft. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:53, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- I generally support some modest quantity of redundant IDs, because they sometimes can be helpful in tracking down an article (for example when a DOI stops resolving, which is a moderately frequent occurrence). I guess I'm a weak oppose on the subject of having bots add them, however. Having a bot add a PMC has rarely seemed like an intrusion (even if there is already a free link of some kind), but kerfuffles of this sort seem to be par for the course when bots are involved and I'm not sure how a bot would know how many IDs is enough. Perhaps there is a middle ground, like an approved list of IDs which are bot-addable. But if we can't resolve it that way, falling back to human editors doesn't strike me as a horrifying thought. Kingdon (talk) 02:24, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- I support adding additional info to citations. As others have pointed out, these are useful for readers who have access to different databases. And many are topical, such as the Math Reviews number or the PubMed number, and will only be available for articles in a certain discipline. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:33, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- Support - Anything that helps our readers get to the original sources used for our articles is a benefit to all. - Hydroxonium (T•C•V) 03:05, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- Comment: The proposed solution does not scale in the long term. I would suggest a solution similar to that for either Books or Map Coordinates; in each case a link leads to a master list where the identifier is auto-integrated with resource links. However, the central-linking solution would need to be refined somewhat for the present solution, as the consistency of ISBN or lat-lon is not present for scholarly articles yet (DOI approaches, but has not reached 100% penetrance ... anyone have stats on that?). What might need to be done is a two step process - create links via bot on a central resource page, then review links via bot for ability to resolve to a target, followed by either link culling or link annotation (verified, unverified, unavailable type flags). I've not read through the comments, so I don't know whether this is a new idea or just a rehash of an old one oft added above. Thanks for considering this, nonetheless. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 03:22, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- Fully, strongly support. Note, I am not a Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine person, nor a Wikipedia:WikiProject Astronomy person (actually, I am a Wikipedia:WikiProject Chemistry person).
- 1) PMIDs are useful, they are available for a lot of articles, they do provide extra information over a DOI (DOIs directly link to the article, generally the search capabilities of the site where that is hosted is limited to the site of the journal - the page on PubMed is generally cross-site). And that is not only true for articles in the medical corner, it is not only true for statements with a medical implication on articles outside the medical corner. When a PMID is available, it should be added, it does lead you to more info.
- 1 (too)) BibCodes are equally useful, they are available for another set of articles, they do provide extra information over a DOI (vide supra, comment on usefulness of PMIDs). That is not only true for the astronomy corner, it is not only true for statements with an astronomy implication on articles outside the medical corner. When a BibCode is available, it should be added, it does lead you to more info.
- 2) the number of journals that is overlapping is quite minimal, they are mainly the general science journals (Nature, Science and such), those articles benefit of identifiers all over Wikipedia. I would be disappointed if CitationBot would not add a PMID to an article in chemistry (as it does already), I would be equally disappointed if Bibcode bot would not add a BibCode to an article in chemistry. Or about whichever subject.
- 3) it is not up to us to decide whether an identifier is useful for others. I can bring up many examples where a PMID is useless clutter for me, I can bring up just as many examples where a BibCode is useless clutter for me. I can even find examples where both are useless clutter for me. The problem in both statements is 'for me'. Sure, I can guess that in most of these cases will also be true for most other readers of the text, but then we get to 'most' - it may be useful for someone, and that should be enough. (Yes, in most cases, I am interested in the article, not in what links to the article, which articles are cited by the article and how often those articles are cited, or articles that cite the article, who wrote it, where it is published, a direct link to the article will do, DOI is enough, per Fetchcomms, thank you).
- 4) I am active in subject A, and for references we have a database linked to subject B and a database linked to subject C. Now, subject B nor subject C are topical for subject A. But both the database of subject B and the database of subject A do give more info than the DOI only would, they both provide extra info, extra search capabilities. Unbiased addition of both is then leading to more info, as obviously no choice can be made whether B or C will be better.
- 5) Regarding 'clutter' - these identifiers are in references, not in prose. Reading references is like reading a telephone book:
no-onehardly anybody does it for fun. When reading a reference you already have to go through a whole set of 'clutter', journal codecs, year of publishing, volume, issue, pagenumbers, &c. &c. (and all presented in different ways .. per convention in the local subject). One extra code does not 'clutter up the reference'. When you are used to code XXXX:1234, then when code YYYY is not there, you scan for the 'XXXX:' and click on the code next to it, when code YYYY:4321, ZZZZ:5678, CCCC:9876 and PPPP:4578 are there, you scan for the 'XXXX:' and click on the code next to it. It does not add clutter, at all. - 6) Now, say, we have a medical article with a medical statement with a medical reference with, obviously a PMID. But that medical article turns out to be also in a astronomy database, and the astronomy database gets added as identifier. When that is not a general journal (Nature, Science) but something specific, then I might wonder 'why is this article in an astronomy database, the article does not have any astronomical content at all?' .. it may turn out, that some info from the article is missing, since there actually turns out to be an astronomical side to the content. A great incentive to look further into that aspect.
- 7) (unlikely scenario) - say database XXXX goes down (temporarily, or is locally blocked behind a firewall, something I could imagine in places/countries where information is restricted), then you have at least access via database YYYY. If XXXX and YYYY provide equal enhanced information over ZZZZ, then even if the article is in the subject of XXXX, then YYYY may be useful when XXXX for some reason goes down (or whatever).
- All in all, I see no reason to not add all identifiers everywhere. They may be useful to some, and that should be enough. --Dirk Beetstra T C 08:04, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- P.S. If you really think that the references contain too much clutter, then I am sure that it is possible to put something in your user stylesheet or javascript that reduces references to just the info you want. E.g. which filters out BibCodes from the parsed text, or another identifier, or even reduces a full-text reference to just 'XXXX' when identifier XXXX is available in that reference. --Dirk Beetstra T C 08:11, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- I strongly oppose
- cluttering references with anything beyond a doi; once there is a doi, users can trivially retrieve whatever bibliographic information in whatever database;
- automatizing controversial edits;
- doing so while there is an ongoing discussion. -- Marie Poise (talk) 14:25, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- Trivial? Really? I for one have no idea how to find an arXiv preprint just from the DOI. Similarly for ADS. And I use both of those databases every day. And remember that getting any information whatsoever out of a DOI depends upon the journal website providing it (without being hidden behind a paywall). Journals generally do NOT link to citation databases for the simple reason that it reduces the chances of anyone actually paying for the article. Modest Genius talk 17:50, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- I strongly oppose bot-induced clutter of footnotes. The advocates of this mechanized mess have their opinions, but it is clear from the comments above that there is dissent and they should NOT be assuming consensus here. Carrite (talk) 15:29, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- Comment not all links have similar value to all readers - so I would oppose limiting links to only one standard (unless links to the others are directly available through that one standard). For example, PMIDs are the most valuable to me, because my library affiliation provides full-text access for a huge range of pubs when linking via PubMed - any other link is far less useful. I would imagine similar considerations apply for other users (and database links other than PubMed - so I'm not simply arguing for PMIDs). If it's possible to make this a reader-level customization for display then that would be great (but might be a resource hog); absent such customization, I would favor inclusive linking. -- Scray (talk) 18:06, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- Strongly support adding links - Not all educational institutes buy access to every single database. Thus I think we should add links to every database the journal's article appears in to help ensure that people reading the Wikipedia article will be able to find the full text without having to go look up the article in the database they have access to. Reaper Eternal (talk) 18:27, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- Comment How about DOI plus a single link to a page that can have as many links as you want, like Special:BookSources? --Kkmurray (talk) 19:37, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- Comment Although I support adding more information to citations, I am troubled by some automated edits. An article gets an automatic edit, it tickles many watch lists, and then many people check the edit. The bots also seem to add a lot of text to the reference that many users will ignore. Bots may pull a citation away from the intended citation to a different one; each fixing something that it perceives is wrong, and the next bot "improving" the citation further. A different approach might be better. The cite/citation templates could have a check for sources link; that link would include some unique information, but it would go to a wikipedia page that would run a (possibly precomputed) query for other sources. The bots could work on fixing the info in the second database without disturbing the article page. They could flag or correct basic info in the article (e.g., adding dates, authors, etc.), but they would not be edit the article merely to include another opaque identifier for some data source. If an article starts getting a lot of click throughs for a source, then the article could be edited to include a direct link for that source. Updates could be limited to so many per month per article. Glrx (talk) 00:46, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
Are articles about WMF Projects exempt from WP:N?
The background
- Recently, there were two nominations to delete two articles on sister projects. One ended in Delete (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Khowar Wikipedia), and the other ended in a WP:IAR Keep (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Waray-Waray Wikipedia).
- I overreacted on the latter deletion debate and lost my temper partly because I could not see any reasonable justification on why anyone would go around AfDing what is basically a part of this very same site. I assumed malicious wikilawyering and lashed out, which is not quite AGF and very uncivil, so apologies for that. Nonetheless, after a few hours of getting back to my usual work, I think I've gained back enough perspective to not truly care if the consensus is to delete all of them, even if I do favor keeping them strongly.
- There are currently nothing about this in any of our policies, so I thought I should try and get a consensus from the community for one. Note that this is my first time doing anything like this, and I'd really prefer to simply write articles. But it's an important question.-- Obsidi♠n Soul 08:47, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
The issue:
- I'm sure everyone is already aware that the English Wikipedia is only one of the many Wikipedias and Wikimedia projects under the WMF. We have articles about them in here, in the same way that other Wikipedias have articles about us.
- However, people may not be aware that a great deal of of those articles rely disproportionately on primary sources and trivial mentions and would thus fail WP:N. Surprising yes, but this includes even our own article on Wikimedia Commons.
- Given how all WMF projects are interconnected and actually rely on each other, should we be treating other WMF projects like external sites and require that they pass WP:N? Other language Wikipedias are used in our interlanguage features, and we do not subject that to WP:EL, do we? There are various advertisements for WMF-related drives and we also do not subject that to WP:NOTSOAPBOX.
- The smaller language Wikipedias are still growing, and I believe it is our responsibility to encourage their growth rather than leave them to fend for themselves by basically disowning them. The home page for Wikipedia (http://www.wikipedia.org/) makes it clear we are one project, despite usually having different users and different rules. Like us, they can not exactly advertise, and without exposure given willingly by other 'mainstream' Wikipedias, they would flounder and die, which leaves the entire project poorer. Like us, they're also volunteers and thus do not exactly have a POV to push, a COI, or any other interests that goes against our own.
- We all share the same goal of free knowledge.
- Many people also just see a rule, and do not ask why there was such a rule in the first place. WP:N in this instance is actually a guideline (not set in stone) and was actually formulated to "stop indiscriminate inclusion of topics". And I don't think that applies to fellow Wikipedias.
- It is my opinion therefore, that articles of other language Wikipedias and other WMF projects should be exempted from WP:N, per common sense (which might seem weak, discuss). But, they should still follow all other policies on WP:NPOV, WP:V, etc.
- Please keep the discussions below in a bulleted format (Oppose, Support, Neutral) followed by a brief rationale. Discussions should be in the Discussion subsection, please do not reply directly in the !Votes subsection. Thanks.-- Obsidi♠n Soul 08:48, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
!Votes
- Exempt - I consider this part of our internal operations and feel that all projects under the WMF banner should be exempt. It is a benefit to our readers to know about our other projects. It is also a benefit to us to have exposure and encourage readers to volunteer for those other projects. We shouldn't be shooting ourselves in the foot over this, plus IAR and COMMON tell us we should do what's in the best interest of the project. I would expand that to mean all projects. - Hydroxonium (T•C•V) 03:26, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- Not Exempt - see comments in discussion. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 03:36, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- Not Exempt - It would very hypocritical of us to say that any WMF project article gets a free pass when many other articles are deleted on regular basis (not that the latter is wrong). This doesn't mean that project can't be listed on the article about the WMF with a redirect in place. --MASEM (t) 11:55, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- Not exempt. Wikimedia-internal navel gazing should be done in project space, which is also the only place where references to Wikipedia-internal pages can reasonably be used for verification, and where trivia such as statistics of page counts, article count milestones or number of contributors are normally of any interest. In article space, either there is substantial coverage of the project in reliable sources (so that it meets general notability guidelines), or we have nothing legitimate to say about it anyway. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:10, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- Not exempt unfortunately. I consider myself a "weak inclusionist" and I'm sympathetic to obsidian's argument. However, I also believe that our deletion processes need to not only be fair but, as much as possible, "appear to be fair" to outsiders, new users, and even
experienced editorsexopedians not familiar with our "rules" and the special internal definitions we give to terms such as "notability" and "consensus". (that's why I don't like to close "1 !vote" AFDs as "delete". I can't with a straight face call it a "consensus" when a newbie asks me about the deletion on my talk page) Therefore, if someone comes to my talk page and asks me why I deleted the popular "Billy Joe Jim Bob's cow tipping wiki" which has zillions of users and lots of buzz on blogs and forums, I couldn't honestly tell him it was because it failed the special definition we have for "notable" if I just closed the AFD on the obscure Pakled Wikipedia as "IAR keep". --Ron Ritzman (talk) 12:40, 16 August 2011 (UTC) - Nothing is exempt, but IAR. This is a "improve the encyclopedia" type of situation. Worst case you can mention the country's wikipedia in a section or statement about Wikipedias across the world, in a more notable article. Dzlife (talk) 13:43, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- Not exempt, but the material should not be deleted; it belongs on Wikimedia Meta-Wiki, linked from meta:Wikimedia projects. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:04, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- Not exempt—why, pray, would we want to retain material on non-notable topics? What value does it serve? Let's be clear about this: if there is any benefit to having articles about non-notable subjects, then it's time to review the notability policy. Basically, declaring the WMF exempt would lead to a whole lot of pretty justified WP:OSE arguments regarding other pages – not a situation we want to bring about. ╟─TreasuryTag►Woolsack─╢ 14:13, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- Not exempt - but instead of Delete, I would !Vote to Merge. There is a difference between retaining information, and retaining an article. As with all topics, if a Wikimedia sister project is notable enough for a stand-alone article, there must exist reliable sources that are independent of Wikimedia that discuss it. If such sources do not exist, the sister project can not be considered notable enough for a stand-alone article. However, that does not negate appropriately listing or mentioning the sister project in a related article (such as the article on Wikimedia). It simply means that the sister project should not have its own article. Blueboar (talk) 14:48, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- Not exempt. You can judge a great deal about the editorial integrity of a media organisation by how it reports about itself. Many organisations do badly in this regard, either with an out-and-out bias, or at least a skewed sense of the relative importance of a matter close to that organisation's heart. When a former BBC journalist dies, the corporation affords that much more coverage than it would the death of a public figure of similar age and profile. When reporting on the recent phone-hacking scandal, newspapers associated with those implicated give much less coverage, those of their competitors much more. This doesn't just reflect badly on these organisations' coverage of those topics - it exposes the apparent flexibility of their editorial standards in general, an impression that taints the whole of the organisation's output. Wikipedia is in general very good about this than other organisations; the Wikipedia article (and related articles) contains much more critical analysis of the work that contains them than I've seen in any other media group's description of itself. We can't help but have a COI (heck, unless we outsourced the article) but we can recognise it and do our best to minimise its effect. We have standards, pretty high ones, and we have to stick to them, and then raise them. This proposal does the opposite - it proposes we lower standards for things we like. Our only purpose must be to write the best, fairest, free-est encyclopaedia we can. We're not here to evangelise open-source or open-content or free media. Lots of other projects, Wikimedia or not, also "share the same goal of free knowledge", but we don't set them a lower standard. IAR is irrelevant - it reads "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it", not "If a rule prevents you from improving or or publicising Wikimedia or other free projects, ignore it." We benefit Wikipedia by raising standards, not lowering them. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 17:47, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- Not exempt. The content of such putative articles, subject to the policies and guidelines for content can be included in several Wikipedia-related articles which already exist. The idea that because it is using the WMF software and A-Z format, as opposed to WordPress or other content management system, therefore it has special merit is bias. If there's consensus that WP:N is passed, and a consensus to spinoff the content into a stand-alone article, then that's our normal process. patsw (talk) 23:37, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
Discussion
Personally, I think calling anything "automatically notable, end of discussion" slings mud in the face of verifiability, implying that some "pseudo-information" out there that might establish notability, without making any effort towards actually trying to establish it. That does not make for substantive articles (i.e. something more than a pretty infobox, navbox, and "The XYZ Wikipedia is a Wikipedia written in the XYZ language."). That being said, I know that we presume various things (high schools come to mind) that are likely to be notable, mainly because nearly all of them do, at one point or another, get covered in some secondary source or another. –MuZemike 00:49, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- You seem to be under the impression that WP:N is the same as WP:V. They are not. Once notability is established (or deemed default), that does not imply verifiability is inconsequential. Per your example, articles on secondary schools and above still need to provide verifiable information despite being automatically notable.
- Again, take a quick look at our articles on WMF projects. Even our article on English Wikipedia relies heavily on primary sources to describe internal procedures. While they satisfy WP:V, they do not establish WP:N.-- Obsidi♠n Soul 01:42, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- I am not saying that they are equivalent, but I am saying that notability is dependent on verifiability. However, notability goes one step further to require a certain degree is independent coverage. That is one of the basic tenets of the general notability guideline (GNG), is that we require something more than just primary sourcing to establish an article. While I think it's reasonable to expect that we be consistent across the board about this, we also try to balance this more with our specific notability guidelines (SNGs). What it seems like here is a rather large gap between the GNG and what we would consider to likely be notable as a WMF project. –MuZemike 01:53, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- Of course, no one is disputing that. However, GNG is formulated specifically for WP:N, as are the SNG's. And I ask again, why was WP:N created in the first place? Articles on WMF projects can satisfy WP:V without necessarily establishing WP:N. WP:N is assuming non-notability as the default, necessary since the vast number of topics (particularly other websites, organizations, and the like) have other interests that might conflict with Wikipedia's.
- However, WMF projects do not have a conflict of interest with the English Wikipedia. I liken it more to say, listing other volumes in a paper encyclopedia. They are part of us, as we are part of them.
- The issue here is the class of articles this is being applied to. As sister projects of Wikipedia and by the very nature of Wikimedia projects themselves, should they be treated in the same way we treat external websites?
- Wikipedia (and by extension, Wikimedia as a whole) is not a reliable source, so if articles on the various projects are being sourced via themselves, they should be removed from mainspace. Navel gazing of this type would be fine in the Wikipedia namespace, IMNSHO. Resolute 03:32, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- Yes. For factual information on other subjects. Not on information about ourselves. To the contrary of what most people seem to believe, primary sources are perfectly acceptable in uncontroversial information. Referring to our policy pages, previous discussions, diffs, histories, etc. is not quite the same as referring to using another Wikipedia article as a reference for another Wikipedia article.
- For example: we can't use IMDB's pages on actors for reliable information on them, but we can use IMDB's 'about us' page as a reference for uncontroversial information on an article on IMDB.
- And how many readers do you know look for info in the Wikipedia namespace? If we hide our projects, how are we going to tell people about it in the first place and invite contributors? Hope some of them are courageous enough to venture into the convoluted bureaucratic nightmare that is our Wikipedia namespace?
- Deflecting the question does not help. If you think this is navel-gazing, then please, 'clean up' our pages on Wikimedia projects by removing all information sourced to WMF sites. You'll find you won't have anything left but a single paragraph or a couple of sentences, none of them particularly shedding light on the subject.- Obsidi♠n Soul 04:00, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
(ec) I think that articles in the main article space should abide by both WP:N and WP:V, regardless of the topic being WMF affiliated or not. There is no reason not to use the Wikipedia namespace for a comprehensive descriptive listing of other Wikipedias ... or all other WMF-affiliated projects, without regard to WP:N but with regard to WP:V. If providing information about the other wikipedias is the goal, then this will serve that purpose. "Forcing" WMF-topical articles into the main article space undermines the WP:N standard, unless there is a consensus agreement on the matter, articulated in something akin to WP:NSPORTS but rather WP:NWMF. Proposal of such a new Notability Policy should be done to cover this if people feel strongly that WMF-topical content should be encyclopedic by default. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 03:36, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- 'Undermining the WP:N standard' begs the question of what is the WP:N standard? And why do we have it? And most importantly, what is it guarding against? Is it really hypocritical to exempt ourselves from it? Considering that we are user-driven, strictly non-promotional, if we can't even provide information about ourselves in our own sites, how else are we going to do it?
- And no, hiding it in the Wikipedia namespace defeats the entire purpose. It would only be really available then for us. And how is that meeting our goals as a project? -- Obsidi♠n Soul 04:00, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
@Finlay McWalter: I disagree with the assessment that Wikipedia is good in the way it reports itself. While the article on Wikipedia itself is quite impartial, the reality of the rest is very different, hence this proposal.
Articles on [major] Wikimedia projects do rely heavily on primary sources and as such do not actually prove notability. Some actually seem to rely on the impression of notability. For example, some language wikis on major European languages (random example: Danish Wikipedia) do not have sources that prove notability or do not have sources at all, yet they are not AfD'd as often as the more obscure (to westerners) Asian and African language Wikipedias. As mentioned before, our article on Wikimedia Commons, in its current state, also does not prove notability and seems to be an exception instead of WP:N (as it is credited in a huge amount of reliable sources as a source for their pictures, but is not actually discussed in depth). So if everyone is assuming I was only talking about small language Wikipedias, I assure you, I'm not. I wouldn't have brought this discussion up in the first place.
While I obviously want them to be excluded in light of the aims of the entire project and not just en.wp, I have to also sadly agree with most of the rationales. I agree with Fut.Perf. ☼'s argument that in most cases, there really is nothing to write about them. I would also happily support a merged article for all other-language Wikipedias that are deemed not notable for their own articles, drawing notability from Wikipedia itself instead. In that way, we still are making them visible to regular readers.
However, I also think hiding our sister projects in Wikipedia space or worse, making it the sole responsibility of metawiki, is both draconian and shortsighted, given that these projects are a part of Wikipedia. But, whatever. As long as there is a community decision on this, I'll be satisfied.
And in case anyone thinks otherwise, a disclaimer : I am not involved in any other Wikimedia projects other than en.wp and commons and have no personal stake in the matter.-- Obsidi♠n Soul 19:42, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
Precedents
Just for ease of reference:
- A large group AfD for many individual Wikipedias was closed as "keep" in 2007 (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Articles on individual Wikipedia language editions)
- Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wikipedia/Archive 1#Removal of Articles about smaller Wikipedias led to the smerging of most smaller Wikipedia articles in 2009 (e.g. [1][2])
- As a result, the navigation template {{Wikipedias}} currently lacks bluelinks for most of the entries below 50,000 articles. In reality, many of the entries in question did have articles previously.
Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:33, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
Wikibombing revisited
A couple of months ago an editor created an essay, Wikipedia:Wikibombing, to discuss the alleged use of search engine optimization techniques on Wikipedia to influence search engine rankings. I have carried out an experiment to see whether this is actually possible in practice and have posted the results at User:Prioryman/Use of SEO techniques on Wikipedia. I would appreciate any feedback from editors. Prioryman (talk) 18:13, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (writing systems) has been marked as a guideline
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (writing systems) ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 02:00, 17 August 2011 (UTC)