Welcome — ask about reliability of sources in context! | |||||||||
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WikiData source
I don't know where to raise this question, whether this is a VPP issue or here (or even an RfC question (feel free to move/convert if that would be warranted)). Here goes:
IMDB is an external database with a lot of information. We have roughly decided that iMDB is NOT to be used as a reference, as it is generally unreliable information. People can use iMDB to get data, but they are to supply an independent reference according to our referencing rules. iMDB cannot be used as a reference for the material that we source from iMDB.
Similar goes for any external wiki that we use. We may be able to find material that we do not have on, say, es.wikipedia.org, and we can incorporate that information in an article on en.wikipedia, but we cannot say that es.wikipedia is the source. es.wikipedia cannot be used as a reference for the material that we source from es.wikipedia
Even if the specific bit of information that we take from iMDB or es.wikipedia is locally referenced, we should use the information from that reference, not from iMDB or es.wikipedia at face value.
We incorporate data from WikiData (by transclusion, by substituted transclusion, or by copying) in the same way as we could copy material from iMDB and es.wikipedia, which means we incorporate material from an unreliable source. Now my question is: how do we see that with respect to WikiData? --Dirk Beetstra T C 05:14, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
People can use iMDB to get data, but they are to supply an independent reference according to our referencing rules.
So what is the problem with "People can use Wikidata to get data, but they are to supply an independent reference according to our referencing rules"? If we apply the same rules as we do for other Wikipedias, Commons, iMDB, etc. why should the results be any different for Wikidata? --RexxS (talk) 22:11, 16 May 2018 (UTC)- Because, when transcluded, the material is sourced from WikiData, referenced (where needed) to an source which meets our sourcing standards. That reference could be local, or on WikiData. When we take something from es.wikipedia, it is not transcluded but copied, properly reference to the reliable source. Es.wikipedia is not visible in that scenario, and it shouldn’t because it is not a suitable source giving credibility to the correctness of the source. —Dirk Beetstra T C 03:53, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- Nor is Wikidata visible in the scenario of information imported into an infobox, for example. The information is not transcluded, because it's filtered when imported. Checking that the reference meets our sourcing standards is precisely the same operation whether one is checking on es-wiki or on Wikidata. --RexxS (talk) 13:42, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, the information is transcluded, altering it on WikiData changes the value on en.wikipedia, which is not the case when taking the data from es.wikipedia. The data is sourced from WikiData, referenced, with WikiData referenced. If the data is imported it is the same, I am talking about transcluded data. I hope now that other editors will start chiming in, because between the two of uswe are not getting anywhere. Our arguments apparently do not arrive at the other side and we are running in circles. —Dirk Beetstra T C 14:13, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, the information is not transcluded. "Transclusion is generally the inclusion of the content of a document into another document by reference." - mw:Transclusion. There are no documents on Wikidata to transclude. The values are imported from Wikidata and filtered, not passed by reference. When a sourced fact is updated on es-wiki manually or by bot, that update will eventually be made on en-wiki manually or by bot. The difference is merely timescale. If a source is removed from Wikidata as unreliable or inaccurate, the fact it used to support no longer appears in our infobox. That process is very different from transclusion. You are asking others to answer questions based on your faulty understanding of the mechanics of importing sourced content from Wikidata to Wikipedia. We won't get any informed opinions from others while you persist in biasing the questions. --RexxS (talk) 00:46, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- we both have bias here, RexxS. Our main point of disagreement is whether WikiData is a source in this context. —Dirk Beetstra T C 17:44, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, the information is not transcluded. "Transclusion is generally the inclusion of the content of a document into another document by reference." - mw:Transclusion. There are no documents on Wikidata to transclude. The values are imported from Wikidata and filtered, not passed by reference. When a sourced fact is updated on es-wiki manually or by bot, that update will eventually be made on en-wiki manually or by bot. The difference is merely timescale. If a source is removed from Wikidata as unreliable or inaccurate, the fact it used to support no longer appears in our infobox. That process is very different from transclusion. You are asking others to answer questions based on your faulty understanding of the mechanics of importing sourced content from Wikidata to Wikipedia. We won't get any informed opinions from others while you persist in biasing the questions. --RexxS (talk) 00:46, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, the information is transcluded, altering it on WikiData changes the value on en.wikipedia, which is not the case when taking the data from es.wikipedia. The data is sourced from WikiData, referenced, with WikiData referenced. If the data is imported it is the same, I am talking about transcluded data. I hope now that other editors will start chiming in, because between the two of uswe are not getting anywhere. Our arguments apparently do not arrive at the other side and we are running in circles. —Dirk Beetstra T C 14:13, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- Nor is Wikidata visible in the scenario of information imported into an infobox, for example. The information is not transcluded, because it's filtered when imported. Checking that the reference meets our sourcing standards is precisely the same operation whether one is checking on es-wiki or on Wikidata. --RexxS (talk) 13:42, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- Because, when transcluded, the material is sourced from WikiData, referenced (where needed) to an source which meets our sourcing standards. That reference could be local, or on WikiData. When we take something from es.wikipedia, it is not transcluded but copied, properly reference to the reliable source. Es.wikipedia is not visible in that scenario, and it shouldn’t because it is not a suitable source giving credibility to the correctness of the source. —Dirk Beetstra T C 03:53, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- We shouldn't be using WikiData at all IMO, because of the doubtful origin of the information presented there and the frequent inaccuracies. Reyk YO! 07:43, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
Suggestion: WP:CHALLENGE
The above discussion seems confusing: e.g. "source from" vs. "reference to" – I suppose there is some difference between the two but it seems all but clear from the discussion above:
- Wikidata is (like iMDB) WP:USERGENERATED content. The WP:RS guideline (whereto WP:USERGENERATED redirects) has some exceptions. Afaics, however, the listed exceptions do not apply to Wikidata nor to iMDB. In sum:
- Wikidata can not be used as a source
- Wikidata can not be used as a reference
- Wikidata however also (like other Wikimedia projects) often "mirrors Wikipedia content" or "relies on material from Wikipedia as source", for which the WP:CIRCULAR part of the WP:V policy has: "... do not use websites that mirror Wikipedia content or publications that rely on material from Wikipedia as sources", which means that
- content residing at Wikidata which was previously merged there from Wikipedia should not be used as a source
- content residing at Wikidata which was previously merged there from Wikipedia should not be used as a reference
- Copying references from an unreliable source to Wikipedia without confirming that these references are reliable and support the content is equally a breach of policy, e.g. from WP:CIRCULAR: "Content from a Wikipedia article is not considered reliable unless it is backed up by citing reliable sources. Confirm that these sources support the content, then use them directly.", which means,
- the external reliable source (not Wikidata) should be used as a source
- the external reliable source (not Wikidata) should be used as a reference
- ... otherwise (if not complying to these policy requirements) the content can be WP:CHALLENGED...
Probably we should see more of that, WP:CHALLENGE-ing that type of content I mean. The abstract discussion above is unlikely to lead to an (abstract) solution, and even less likely to change policy. So, if you see mainspace content that is likely sourced from and/or referenced to Wikidata, and that is not WP:BLUE content, remove it. If a discussion ensues, that can not be resolved on the article's talk page, then bring it here in the Source/Article/Content format recommended for this noticeboard, and we'd maybe have something less abstract to discuss about here. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:57, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
Here's a first example of such a WP:CHALLENGE:
- [1]:
- Source – Wikidata
- Article – Malpelo Island
- Content – removed content, based on the unreliable Wikidata source, does not distinguish between the name of the island ("Malpelo Island") and the name of the WHS protected area ("Malpelo Fauna and Flora Sanctuary"), notwithstanding that the external reliable source (1216) & reference (identical to external reliable source, i.e. 1216) are clear that that is the name of the WHS protected area.
- The above has not been discussed on the article's talk page yet (and was, for clarity, operated under Template talk:Infobox World Heritage Site#Implementation of RfC) – just trying to illustrate what such WP:CHALLENGEs could look like.
- Further, this example illustrates what goes wrong when not *checking* (i.e. per WP:CIRCULAR's "Confirm that these [external reliable] sources support the content, then use them directly") whether the content of the external reliable source matches the content imported from Wikidata... --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:21, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
- Fracis, that is true for any information, and besides the point. My question here basically is: when we transclude data from WikiData, are we getting that data from an external source. —Dirk Beetstra T C 05:41, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- External to what? Wikidata is a Wikimedia project owned by the WMF so, like English Wikipedia, it's internal to that group of projects; Wikidata is a project different from English Wikipedia, so it is as external to English Wikipedia as, say, French Wikipedia or Commons. Could you explain why that question is relevant? For me the main distinction is: reliable or not reliable, that is: in WP:RS/WP:V sense – and the kind of distinctions that are sorted out on this noticeboard, which is called "Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard". So, for example, French Wikipedia is not a reliable source in that sense. For Commons, the answer to the reliability question falls in two parts: it is partially reliable, and partially unreliable. Probably for Wikidata that would be the case too: partially reliable, partially unreliable. I propose to proceed with case studies triggered by WP:CHALLENGEs as described above, which would make the question at least tangible. Maybe the abstract external-or-internal question is "besides the point". At least it seems to be so on this noticeboard which is about reliability of sources. So please explain why you think your question relevant, maybe we can find a better venue for it (if it is, as you seem to indicate, unrelated to the reliable-or-unreliable question). --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:25, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Fracis, that is true for any information, and besides the point. My question here basically is: when we transclude data from WikiData, are we getting that data from an external source. —Dirk Beetstra T C 05:41, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- So, we are transcluding material from an unreliable source. There is correct information on it, but in basis, since material on WD can be a) reliably sourced, b) unreliably sourced, c) unsourced), d) reliably sourced but changed without changing the reference. So we are getting to the point. —Dirk Beetstra T C 08:13, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- As to my question: if we are transcuding data from WikiData, are we sourcing information, and therefore is that information source subject to WP:RS? That is besides the question whether the material carries a reference here or there. —Dirk Beetstra T C 08:17, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Tacking on references without checking whether the reference represents a reliable source nor whether the source supports the content would be meaningless in any Wikimedia context. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:44, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Scenario: I include a chembox, where the synonym field is empty, and the box is set up to transclude if the data is referenced on WikiData. However, WikiData is empty for the synonym as well. I check all transcluded fields, noting that there are no synonyms, and see all are NOW reliably sourced. I save and walk away. You come to WikiData the next day to the same item, fill in a synonym, referenced to what En.wikipedia considers an unreliable source (but since WikiData is not that strict, you have not done anything ‘wrong’). Because it is THENa referenced item and the chembox is set up to transclude referenced items, it is transcluded. YOU have just added unreliable material through MY edit. But from the en.wikipedia point of view, you have tacked on a reference to data wihout checking whether after transclusion it is representing a reliable source or whether the source supports the content. Meaningless? —Dirk Beetstra T C 11:54, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Is it your responsibility that if you edit WikiData and add data that is going to be transcluded to make sure that it follows en.wikipedia sourcing rules? And if you, on WikiData, continue to add such data, will any admin on WikiData block you (after warnings) for consistently failing en.wikipedia’s sourcing requirements? —Dirk Beetstra T C 12:08, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- It seems extremely unlikely I would have added a synonym for a chemical (with or without reference) to Wikidata. Hence my proposal to switch to real examples instead of using hypothetical ones – would at least avoid to seemingly make me responsible for things I would never do.
- In your hypothetical example, did the Lua code which imported the synonym (and its reference) check whether the source indicated by the reference is reliable for en.wikipedia's purposes? And whether that source covered the content of the imported material? I don't think so, not on either account. Thus, the software (and/or whoever set it up in that way) seems to be the culprit for evading the WP:V policy. But whatever: if something along these lines happens, simply WP:CHALLENGE the material by removing it (which is an acceptable method to counter material that does not comply to WP:V). If that doesn't lead to acceptable results, bring the example back to this noticeboard for analysis. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:04, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Are you really expecting a LUA code being able to detect if something is a reliable source for information or not? This noticeboard can be closd. —Dirk Beetstra T C 13:36, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, the Lua code cannot perform what is needed for full WP:V compliance, hence the unresolved problem. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:53, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Exactly. Unless WikiData is a reliable source, we have no way to distinguish whether their material is reliable. We should therefor not source material from WikiData. —Dirk Beetstra T C 13:56, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- That's nonsense. Wikidata is not a source, reliable or otherwise. Material cannot be reliable or unreliable, only sources have that property. The way we distinguish whether the source is reliable is the always the same and we have WP:RS to explain how to do it.
- Here's a concrete example: William P. Murphy received the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine. Is that reliable or unreliable? Neither, it's a statement. Here's the award that Wikidata states William P. Murphy received: Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine . Is that reliable or unreliable? Neither. Follow the pen-icon link and you'll find this reference https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/1934/ - is that reliable or unreliable? I would have thought 'reliable'. Anybody disagree? If you want to challenge something, why not look at William P. Murphy? You can legitimately remove the first four paragraphs because they are unsourced. The infobox, however, has good sourcing in place for each of its facts. Using Dirk's reasoning, we should not have any content at all because it's all sourced from Wikipedia. --RexxS (talk) 01:32, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- I just WP:CHALLENGEd the Wikidata source at William P. Murphy ([2]). --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:18, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- Exactly. Unless WikiData is a reliable source, we have no way to distinguish whether their material is reliable. We should therefor not source material from WikiData. —Dirk Beetstra T C 13:56, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- And also here, we are running in the same circle. Guess we’ll see at the next RfC. —Dirk Beetstra T C 17:41, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- Maybe you are running in circles, I'm not. The challenging at the Murphy article worked afaics: the infobox is now Wikidata-free. Next non-hypothetical example please. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:41, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- ((rto|Francis Schonken}} No, WE are running in circles- I say WikiData is a source, and an unreliable one, you(pl) say, just challenge, I say that there is nothing to challenge as it is unreliable and should not be a source, you challenge .. on the other hand I say we transclude, then people say, we import only data we filter .. i say we then transclude what we filter but no, we don’t transclude. Perfect circles. Over and over. Now, go import and challenge what you want, we’ll meet at either ArbCom or another RfC, because this is a recipe for continuous fights, WE are not going to solve this, we need the community to decide on these terms. I already said I will wait for others to comment, but it is continuous the same four or five people. I want other editors to explain to me it is NOT a source and why, and I want other editors to explain to me we are NOT transcluding. Now, close the circle again. —Dirk Beetstra T C 22:43, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not running in circles, please speak for yourself.
- WP:CHALLENGEs can be applied to material that is unsourced and to material that is poorly sourced (please familiarize yourself with the policy instead of basing yourself on circular reasoning). So, whether Wikidata is a "poor" (e.g., WP:USERGENERATED, WP:CIRCULAR,...) source, or "not a source at all", WP:CHALLENGE can be applied either way. I'm hoping that through discussion of concrete examples (instead of endless theoretical discussions) we may establish what is the case. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:17, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- That is the point, Francis, my argument is 'it is a source'. If WikiData is the source, then there is no point in challenging - WikiData is not a reliable source and they are, by definition challenged. You guys state 'WikiData is not a source', in which case the data can be challenged. WikiData is the website that carries the information that we use on en.wikipedia, that is a 'body of work', 'a database', an 'information carrier' .. it is a source, it is our source. And it is unreliable. I have not seen yet a convincing argument why WikiData is NOT a source, and until then we are running in circles.
- Until now it is two against two (roughly) where two say it is a source and that therefore the whole of WikiData is subject to WP:RS, and two who say that it is not a source, and that therefore the data is subject to WP:CHALLENGE. WE are running in circles, not me alone. --Dirk Beetstra T C 13:09, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- "Poorly sourced" material (which includes "sourced to an unreliable source") can be WP:CHALLENGEd. That is policy. As I said above. Multiple times. Please snap out of your circular reasoning, and maybe start with getting acquainted with the policy. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- OK. By this I challenge: ALL material sourced from WikiData is challenged, please remove all information that we transclude, import, or whatever you name it (all, literally all material that is stored on WikiData and that is, filtered or unfultered, through LUA code and templates, and directly transcluded) from En.wikipedia, as that is all sourced from an unreliable source: WikiData. —Dirk Beetstra T C 13:59, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- To clarify the word ‘Berlin’ in here: “Berlin“ is sourced from WikiData. —Dirk Beetstra T C 14:59, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- "Poorly sourced" material (which includes "sourced to an unreliable source") can be WP:CHALLENGEd. That is policy. As I said above. Multiple times. Please snap out of your circular reasoning, and maybe start with getting acquainted with the policy. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- ((rto|Francis Schonken}} No, WE are running in circles- I say WikiData is a source, and an unreliable one, you(pl) say, just challenge, I say that there is nothing to challenge as it is unreliable and should not be a source, you challenge .. on the other hand I say we transclude, then people say, we import only data we filter .. i say we then transclude what we filter but no, we don’t transclude. Perfect circles. Over and over. Now, go import and challenge what you want, we’ll meet at either ArbCom or another RfC, because this is a recipe for continuous fights, WE are not going to solve this, we need the community to decide on these terms. I already said I will wait for others to comment, but it is continuous the same four or five people. I want other editors to explain to me it is NOT a source and why, and I want other editors to explain to me we are NOT transcluding. Now, close the circle again. —Dirk Beetstra T C 22:43, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- Maybe you are running in circles, I'm not. The challenging at the Murphy article worked afaics: the infobox is now Wikidata-free. Next non-hypothetical example please. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:41, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, the Lua code cannot perform what is needed for full WP:V compliance, hence the unresolved problem. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:53, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Tacking on references without checking whether the reference represents a reliable source nor whether the source supports the content would be meaningless in any Wikimedia context. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:44, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Francis Schonken: If you challenge something as it's unreferenced, you should remove it completely from the article (or add the references), it's not an excuse to substitute Wikidata-provided information (particularly when that information has references on Wikidata!). Otherwise, by the logic that seems to be used here, you're referencing it to the Wikipedia article. Mike Peel (talk) 21:18, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- Re. "... (or add the references), ..." – which I did, e.g. here. If you think that can be useful, I'm prepared to discuss that example, or any other similar example, in detail. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:17, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Re. "Sure..." – Chitwan National Park example:
- This edit removed referenced, valid content from Wikipedia, replacing it with a highly unorthodox reference, i.e. a reference that is neither "normal", nor conforming to WP:V/WP:RS.
- This edit restored the deleted material, while at the same time "Confirm[ing] that [3] support[ed] the content, then us[ing that source] directly", per the recommendations at WP:CIRCULAR.
- --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:21, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, the WHS URL is used consistently as a reference in that case - it's both on Wikidata and the number+URL is shown in the infobox consistently. It seems to be you that's going round in circles, not the reference. Mike Peel (talk) 12:31, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Except that in this other case the WHS URL was removed. Took me some time to figure out how come that in that case the WHS external reference was removed: as it happens, by an operation that was completely legit at Wikidata. Anyhow fails WP:V 1.0 "In Wikipedia, verifiability means that other people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source...". In that case no such reliable source was indicated in the box. The fickleness of Wikidata shows that it is unreliable for en.Wikipedia's verifiability purposes. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:42, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, the WHS URL is used consistently as a reference in that case - it's both on Wikidata and the number+URL is shown in the infobox consistently. It seems to be you that's going round in circles, not the reference. Mike Peel (talk) 12:31, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Another CHALLENGE: Before the CHALLENGE the World Heritage Site (WHS) supposedly had an area of 245.13 km2 (2.6386×109 sq ft) [sic], while according to the reference that should have been 0.0031 km2 (0.31 ha). Again, nothing wrong at Wikidata (the original km2 is more or less correct for the topic of the article, 242 km2 (93 sq mi) according to its {{infobox Italian comune}}), but completely unreliable for transclusion in the WHS infobox. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:30, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- I WP:CHALLENGEd the ridiculous area values, supplied by Wikidata, in this infobox. Note that the challenged data completely fail WP:V's "verifiability means that other people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source". --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:04, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- Another WP:CHALLENGE – this time not related to the WHS box. This one was hit by the "Trocolandia" vandalism at Wikidata via the Pyramid infobox. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:28, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- A WP:CHALLENGE related to {{Infobox observatory}}. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:16, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Regarding that last example, @Mike Peel: is there any reason why the observatory code ... reference ...(is)... just not showing ... here atm? If so, can you fix it, or do you have at least an idea where to go to get it fixed? --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:08, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Since references in the infobox were turned off I haven't been working on improving the code to display them. Edit warring with me as well as WP:POINTy removal of infoboxes is unlikely to convince me to spend more time improving this. Mike Peel (talk) 14:14, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Regarding that last example, @Mike Peel: is there any reason why the observatory code ... reference ...(is)... just not showing ... here atm? If so, can you fix it, or do you have at least an idea where to go to get it fixed? --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:08, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- I WP:CHALLENGEd another one: before the challenge the WHS infobox uploaded various unsuitable content:
- An image completely unrelated to the WHS site
- Coordinates, 5°06′N 100°58′E / 5.100°N 100.967°E, which are not those of the WHS site (5°4′4.47″N 100°58′20.38″E / 5.0679083°N 100.9723278°E)
- The WHS site "including"... the WHS site
- --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:14, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
Related question
One issue that has not been discussed is how WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT applies when transcluding from Wikidata. My understanding of SAYWHERE is that, if we use Wikidata as an intermediary host site for information, then Wikidata becomes OUR source, regardless of where Wikidata got its info. Wikidata is what we should cite. Comments? Blueboar (talk) 11:22, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Now that is exactly as I see it: regardless of whether the data is locally and/or on WikiData referenced to a reliable source and whether either reference (still) represents what we originally transcluded (knowing that material may not be on WikiData when the transclusion was set up and that the data can be changed on WikiData after transclusion), WikiData is the source of information, that is where we got the information. And WikiData is by all definitions of our sources unreliable (if we consider ourselves, en.wikipedia, to be an unreliable source ...). To me, ALL data that is transcluded from WikiData should carry a <ref> tag stating that WikiData is the source of the information. It stretches my AGF that all editors who transclude data from WikiData have checked whether all data is reliably sourced (knowing that e.g. an template can now be added to a page where one field is both locally and on WikiData empty, and that later data can be added to WikiData for said field with an, for en.wikipedia, unreliable source). —Dirk Beetstra T C 11:45, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Re. "... ALL data that is transcluded from WikiData should carry a <ref> tag stating that WikiData is the source of the information" – of course not. Wikidata is a WP:USERGENERATED source (see above), and it is thus not allowed to use it as a reference. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:09, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- So we are not allowed to transclude from Wikidata? Blueboar (talk) 13:27, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- If you source data from WikiData you have to reference your source. If you are not allowed to use an unreliable source as a reference, you are not allowed to use the source. —Dirk Beetstra T C 13:35, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- ...thus what I wrote in the #Suggestion: WP:CHALLENGE subsection seems entirely relevant after all. The exception would be WP:BLUE type of content (as I indicated above). Thus, I'd proceed with WP:CHALLENGEs, as described above, so that we can figure out together where the WP:BLUE border falls for content imported from Wikidata. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:49, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, because WikiData is unreliable, there is no unchallengable info - all information that you transclude from WikiData is unreliable, and therefore it should simply not be used. And we are NOT talking about imported data, we are talking about transcluded data - i.e. data that, when changed on WikiData, changes data here. —Dirk Beetstra T C 13:59, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- About the semantics: "transcluding" is definitely a (specific) form of "importing". I'd say "importing-with-a-live-connection" or "importing-by-software" or some such. So, if there's guidance relating to "importing" it certainly also applies to "transcluding".
- There's definitely also WP:BLUE type of content in a Wikidata item: at least the sitelinks (called interwiki links at English Wikipedia) are. Whether these fall under the "exception" of the second paragraph of WP:CIRCULAR, or are completely outside the WP:V/WP:RS realm is unclear: the thing is, they're unproblematic as far as this WP:RSN board is concerned. I'd be sympathetic towards the idea that authority control numbers might be to some degree WP:BLUE, or at least unproblematic, too. I'd like to find out whether there's a consensus about that. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:35, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- Although it can have impact, I indeed think that the interwikis are completely exempt from WP:V/WP:RS. All other, though, do not. I do think that linking the wrong persondata on a person could be BLP-sensitive (as that does relate to being able to confirm whether we are talking about a certain subject). --Dirk Beetstra T C 09:15, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- I can't see a problem with how the {{authority control}} box currently operates. Since all authority control numbers in that box (whether or not transcluded from Wikidata) are presented as external links, and are by the design of the box not used as references/sources in the WP:V/WP:RS sense, this would equally fall outside WP:RSN board I suppose. Afaics also "unchallengable" in the WP:CHALLENGE sense. Applicable guidance would be Wikipedia:External links, and if there are issues to be resolved w.r.t. external links in that template, rather to be taken to WP:ELN than to this WP:RSN. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:28, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- IMHO, anything in a Wikipedia article should be correct, and in this case the created external link is by itself a (primary) reference. But also for external links, one needs to be able to show that it is correct, and there are (albeit rare) cases where there are references in the external link section to verify that a certain external link is indeed the one that it is supposed to be (ever changing external links are sometimes referenced as to show that that is currently the correct one). I would not really go as far as that external links are completely exempt from WP:V/WP:RS. --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:27, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Francis Schonken: There is such a discussion currently at ELN here. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:00, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- I can't see a problem with how the {{authority control}} box currently operates. Since all authority control numbers in that box (whether or not transcluded from Wikidata) are presented as external links, and are by the design of the box not used as references/sources in the WP:V/WP:RS sense, this would equally fall outside WP:RSN board I suppose. Afaics also "unchallengable" in the WP:CHALLENGE sense. Applicable guidance would be Wikipedia:External links, and if there are issues to be resolved w.r.t. external links in that template, rather to be taken to WP:ELN than to this WP:RSN. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:28, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- Although it can have impact, I indeed think that the interwikis are completely exempt from WP:V/WP:RS. All other, though, do not. I do think that linking the wrong persondata on a person could be BLP-sensitive (as that does relate to being able to confirm whether we are talking about a certain subject). --Dirk Beetstra T C 09:15, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- Re. "... ALL data that is transcluded from WikiData should carry a <ref> tag stating that WikiData is the source of the information" – of course not. Wikidata is a WP:USERGENERATED source (see above), and it is thus not allowed to use it as a reference. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:09, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
Challenging MusicBrainz info in authority control box
See WP:ELN#Examples of problematic linking via the authority control box (first example), please discuss that example there, in order to keep the discussion in one place. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:34, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
RfC: Wound characteristics of military-style rifles
Is the New York Times a reliable source for bullet wound characteristics? Which article(s), if any, should this be included in? –dlthewave ☎ 20:03, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
Proposed text
Wound characteristics The New York Times interviewed several trauma surgeons with military experience, who described the wounds created by assault rifles, both military and civilian variants: “What makes injuries from these rifles so deadly…is that the bullets travel so fast. Those from an M-16 or AR-15 can depart the muzzle at a velocity of more than 3,000 feet per second, while bullets from many common handguns move at less than half or a third that speed. The result: The energy imparted to a human body by a high velocity weapon is exponentially greater than that from a handgun.” The bullets in an M-16 or AR-15 also turn sideways (yaw) or "tumble" when they hit a person. The surgeons also explained "the weapons produce the same sort of horrific injuries seen on battlefields…You will see multiple organs shattered. The exit wounds can be a foot wide.” As the blast wave travels through the body, it pushes tissues and organs aside in a temporary cavity larger than the bullet itself. They bounce back once the bullet passes. Organs are damaged, blood vessels rip and many victims bleed to death before they reach a hospital.”[1]
Background
The text has been proposed or added to Assault rifle, Assault weapon and AR-15 style rifle.
Survey questions
1. Is the New York Times article a reliable source for this statement?
2. If the statement is found to be reliably sourced, which article (if any) should it be added to? If the source is found to be reliable, which article(s) (if any) is it a reliable source for? (Assault rifle, Assault weapon, AR-15 style rifle, specific cartridge type, or something else) Wording changed per discussion below. –dlthewave ☎ 03:09, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
Straw poll
- OPPOSE INCLUSION FOR ALL ARTICLES...by definition, anecdotal evidence, as such not reliable.--RAF910 (talk) 20:23, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
- RAF910, "interviews with trauma surgeons with military experience" on this topic is not anecdotal evidence by any definition, much less a news article based on them among other sources. If that's what your opposition is based on, you might want to rethink it. Waleswatcher (talk) 13:12, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, the NYT is not a RS for medical information and has an axe to grind on this issue. This is not MEDRS compliant AFAIK. And it is also filled with hyperbole due to the gun debate in the US. The reality is a tad more nuanced - there are high velocity handguns on the one hand, and the M-16/AR-15 small caliber has actually led it to be ineffective against body armor - with the army looking at 6.8mm [4] and 7.62. Interviewed surgeons invariably (in any conflict) bemoan the damage caused by bullets (whether they stay in or zip out). We should stick to a solid medical (or cadaver/dummy) studies, of which I am sure there are several, which are not linked to the gun control debate.Icewhiz (talk) 20:27, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
- To clarify my !vote in light of comments below - In "axe to grind" I was referring to this being coverage related to the gun debate in the US. The NYT, is, of course considered the gold plate in journalism in the US (and beyond). However, the underlying source of the information (surgeon interviews as opposed to an actual study), the rather inaccurate language (e.g. exponentially which is technically incorrect here), and the sensationalist (as opposed to technical) tone - makes this a far from perfect source for bullet wound dynamics. It is definitely reliable to say that trauma surgeons said so in an interview - so in that sense the NYT is a RS - however per WP:MEDRS (and I do see bullet wounds as "biomedical information" per MEDRS) such a primary statement should be avoided. Finally, there are actually several review studies available for bullet wound characteristics - which would be a much better source.Icewhiz (talk) 10:47, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Not usable for anything here. I get a feeling that the journalist has done some heavy editing on what the trauma specialists said, without knowing what he/she was doing, because I doubt they said what the article says. The energy does not depend entirely on bullet velocity, as the article seems to claim when mentioning the lower velocity of handgun bullets, but on velocity when entering the target and bullet weight (½ x bullet weight x velocity squared), which since handguns usually have heavy bullets (ranging from ~125 grain for a 9mm to ~230 grain for a .45ACP) while the 5.56x45mm NATO (which is the caliber they were talking about, since that's what the M-16 and most AR-15s are chambered for) usually have bullets in the 55-70 grain range, and handguns are used at short range while rifles are used at longer range, means that a handgun bullet can very well have the same energy when hitting the target as a 5.56mm rifle bullet has. Which a surgeon with military experience of course would know. The material has been repeatedly added to Assault rifle and Assault weapon, i.e. articles about weapons, where it most definitely does not belong, for these reasons (copied from a post of mine at Talk:Assault rifle):
"They (i.e. wound characteristics) are totally irrelevant in this article since it isn't the rifle as such that causes the wound, but the ammunition/bullet. How severe a wound is, i.e. penetration, size of wound cavity etc etc, depends entirely on the cartridge (bullet diameter, bullet length, bullet weight, bullet type, velocity when entering the target etc), not on what type of weapon that was used. The barrel length matters, since a longer barrel usually results in a higher muzzle velocity, but what type of action the weapon has, what it looks like, whether it has a removable magazine or not, etc, is totally irrelevant. Which is why wound characteristics belong in articles about specific cartridges (and many articles about military cartridges already have such information), not in articles about different types of weapons."
- So, as I wrote there, the only article that kind of material might belong in is 5.56x45mm, but that article already has that kind of information (scroll down a bit and you'll find illustrations and all...), much more professional information to boot, so I see no use at all for the kind of unprofessional sensationalist information the NYT article provides. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 20:38, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes the New York Times is a reliable source for reporting the assessments of experts in this or any other field. Dismissing such as merely "anecdotal evidence" strikes me as a bit odd. I'll pass on the question of which article(s) are appropriate for this information. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:40, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
- "Anecdotal evidence is evidence from anecdotes, i.e., evidence collected in a casual or informal manner and relying heavily or entirely on personal testimony."--RAF910 (talk) 20:57, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
- Comment This is a difficult set of questions as phrased. It depends greatly on what context. The NYT source suffers from being politically motivated and lacking some requisite technical details but that alone doesn't exclude it. It is a poor quality source on this topic which already has good, technical sources in 5.56x45 NATO. Which article it is fit for raises questions of NPOV and DUE weight which cannot be decided here. —DIYeditor (talk) 21:21, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
- YES INCLUDE for all the articles. Of course the NYT is a credible source of information and the damage caused by AR-15 is specifically described. Several respondents above act as if their own expertise matters, when it does not. Wikpedia is about including facts from credible sources. They are welcome to add other articles that further cover the subject that may disagree with the statements of the trauma surgeons cited in the NYT article. But to exclude such content is wholly inappropriate. "You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts" as the saying goes. It's factual, it's from a credible source, include it. Then decide how to balance it if you have other credible factual sources that disagree.Farcaster (talk) 21:34, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
- All what articles? All the articles on Wikipedia? This is RSN, being a reliable source doesn't make something fit for inclusion in any given article. It could be an entirely reliable and factual source but you can't just pop it into the Opossum article. Which articles in particular are you saying this is a RS for? And that still doesn't answer whether it is DUE. —DIYeditor (talk) 21:42, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
- The articles are listed above. Please read what you are commenting on.Farcaster (talk) 23:47, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry, my apologies, I didn't see that line. Not listed is the most relevant article which I could see it going in and the one I had suggested: 5.56x45 NATO. —DIYeditor (talk) 00:41, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- The articles are listed above. Please read what you are commenting on.Farcaster (talk) 23:47, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
- All what articles? All the articles on Wikipedia? This is RSN, being a reliable source doesn't make something fit for inclusion in any given article. It could be an entirely reliable and factual source but you can't just pop it into the Opossum article. Which articles in particular are you saying this is a RS for? And that still doesn't answer whether it is DUE. —DIYeditor (talk) 21:42, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
- Inadequate It isn't a very good source when more academic works on the subject may be found. Concerning two of the doctors cited in the article, they mention the rarity with which they operate on someone having these wounds and that doesn't go well with describing them as experts. "Now, though the wounds are still rare on the streets of Birmingham, he operates on occasional victims..." concerning Dr. Kerby. Concerning Dr. Gupta, "Attacks using AR-15-style weapons are still rare, he emphasized. He sees mostly handgun wounds and some from shotguns." Better sourcing with more collated data from actual experts en masse is needed and available. Try books about ballistic wounds. Trying to use a NYT article for this subject is a hack job.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 22:15, 27 May 2018 (UTC) Yes for the first question per Shock Brigade Harvester Boris.As for the second question, that's beyond the scope of this noticeboard. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:30, 27 May 2018 (UTC)- Actually, after reading the NYT article more closely, I don't think the proposed text is completely accurate in capturing the what the source is saying. First, while it does say that 3 of the doctors served in the military, but does not say how they served. Perhaps they were surgeons. Perhaps they were infantry. We don't know because the article doesn't say. Second, unless I missed it, I don't think it supports the text "both military and civilian variants". Therefore, I would propose the following:
Wound characteristics The New York Times interviewed several trauma surgeons
with military experience,who described the wounds created by assault rifles, both military and civilian variants: “What makes injuries from these rifles so deadly…is that the bullets travel so fast. Those from an M-16 or AR-15 can depart the muzzle at a velocity of more than 3,000 feet per second, while bullets from many common handguns move at less than half or a third that speed. The result: The energy imparted to a human body by a high velocity weapon is exponentially greater than that from a handgun.” The bullets in an M-16 or AR-15 also turn sideways (yaw) or "tumble" when they hit a person. The surgeons also explained "the weapons produce the same sort of horrific injuries seen on battlefields…You will see multiple organs shattered. The exit wounds can be a foot wide.” As the blast wave travels through the body, it pushes tissues and organs aside in a temporary cavity larger than the bullet itself. They bounce back once the bullet passes. Organs are damaged, blood vessels rip and many victims bleed to death before they reach a hospital.”[1]
- Source has serious issues, these wounds are not inflicted because they are from a military style rifle, but instead because they are from a rifle firing a certain cartridge, the type of rifle is incidental. This is equivalent to saying being hit by a MAN truck is in some way worse than being hit by a Mercedes truck, despite the two travelling at identical speeds and having identical fronts. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 23:40, 27 May 2018 (UTC).
- I think you should read what I wrote, "they are from a rifle firing a certain cartridge", who said anything about throwing? Rather than simply making snide comments about those who hold opposing views from your own, can I suggest you familiarise yourself with WP:CIVIL and WP:EQ. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 23:54, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
- To clarify:
- Q1
- yes source is reliable by definitionno source is not reliable - thank you to Farcaster for bringing my attention back to WP:NEWSORG, having reviewed it and WP:MEDRS again I assess the NYTs is not a reliable source of biomedical content. Changed !vote. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 04:20, 4 June 2018 (UTC). - Q2 - none of the above - it lacks the specificity to be included in any of the above pages, nor any others that I am aware of. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 00:38, 30 May 2018 (UTC).
- Surely it could be included on the AR-15 or M-16 pages, which are specifically mentioned in the source? –dlthewave ☎ 01:47, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- No I do not believe it can. The AR-15 action in its various guises comes in various chamberings and these are not specified, whilst the M16 is only mentioned in passing. If the article specified a cartridge it would be a different argument. My criticism of the article above stands. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 05:09, 30 May 2018 (UTC).
- Surely it could be included on the AR-15 or M-16 pages, which are specifically mentioned in the source? –dlthewave ☎ 01:47, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Q1
- Hm.
- PMID 25724396 is a review from 2015, PMID 20565804/PMC 2898680 is a review from 2010, and PMID 19644779 is a review from 2009; they are the most on-point MEDRS reviews and both say the same thing -- that tissue damage from a bullet is a function of the kinetic energy of the bullet; the kinetic energy = one-half the mass times velocity squared. So velocity is by far the most important aspect. The velocity is dependent on the weapon, with handguns providing far less than rifles, with shotguns in between but depending on the range, causing more damage due to the multiple projectiles. Both articles walk through that and talk about the resulting injuries. The shape of the bullet also matters, and whether it tumbles or fragments. They also make it clear that the temporary cavitation when a high velocity bullet passes through tissue is much larger than with a low velocity bullet, and that inelastic organs like the brain, liver, and spleen are devastated by large temporary cavitation from high velocity bullets. This is what the surgeons in the NYT article talked about the most.
- The Hartford Consensus from 2015 also talks about this; it is a high quality MEDRS source -- a clinical guideline. It doesn't go into the same deal but see example page 30, left column, where the stuff I just wrote is reviewed.
- This document from the military about kinds of wounds, and wound management, says the same thing as well. It also names kinds of weapons, so will be more useful with respect to adding content to specific articles.
- All four of those are MEDRS and say the same thing as the NYT.
- In my view the content should absolutely come in in the relevant articles about guns and rifles and shotguns, with these sources. The NYT ref can be used to a) provide as a "lay summary" and b) connect the generic types of weapons discussed in these pages to the specific models, if that is needed. Jytdog (talk) 00:22, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- btw PMID 26958801 is a primary source, reviewing autopsy reports of civilian mass casualty shootings, and comparing those to battlefield wounds. It notes that there is a much higher mortality rate with civilians because a) civilians aren't wearing protection so head and chest "hits" are devastating; b) civilian shootings tend to be close range. That is addressing comments above bringing in issues of range, with respect to velocity.
- An aside -- in the course of looking for sources, I came across this article from the UK about care of wounded soldiers, which has some history and some horrific pictures that were hard to see. It is Memorial Day tomorrow in the US. Jytdog (talk) 00:22, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks a lot, Jytdog, these sources from how you have described them seem quite useful and appropriate. The discussion of different rounds and weapons in the military document would make this appropriate for the Assault rifle article and could be used to expand the individual weapon and round articles (at least one of which already has this discussion in technical detail). The military document does on the other hand list among common misconceptions velocity being the most important factor. —DIYeditor (talk) 01:18, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- glad you are pleased. Please be careful not to cherry-pick. :) Jytdog (talk) 01:26, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- I personally have no concern with how lethal or devastating any round or weapon is described to be as long as it is well sourced and accurate. From my knowledge 5.56mm AR-15s do produce massive wounds. I was brought to this discussion by concern over the manner in which a secondary dictionary definition was added to the Assault rifle article, not any interest in hiding discussion on the lethality of these weapons. I should mention that you are right, it is good to remember Memorial Day in this discussion. —DIYeditor (talk)
- glad you are pleased. Please be careful not to cherry-pick. :) Jytdog (talk) 01:26, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks a lot, Jytdog, these sources from how you have described them seem quite useful and appropriate. The discussion of different rounds and weapons in the military document would make this appropriate for the Assault rifle article and could be used to expand the individual weapon and round articles (at least one of which already has this discussion in technical detail). The military document does on the other hand list among common misconceptions velocity being the most important factor. —DIYeditor (talk) 01:18, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- Source is reliable, but lack of specificity limits applicability to a few articles The source in question makes some generalized statements about bullet wound characteristics without specifying the cartridge(s) from which the bullets creating the observed wounds were fired, although it may be inferred the cartridge would have been the 5.56×45mm NATO which was the primary cartridge used in the M4 and M16 rifles. Although AR-15 style rifles are mentioned by the source, many AR-15 style rifles use other cartridges. The 5.56×45mm NATO cartridge is also used in many other firearms, and many bullets used by civilians are of distinctly different design than the bullets used in military loads and may be loaded to significantly lower velocities. The material might be useful in articles like Stopping power or Hydrostatic shock (firearms) focusing on description of bullet injuries. Its usefulness for the 5.56×45mm NATO article would be conditioned upon positive identification of that cartridge to the described injuries. It would not be appropriate for articles describing firearms suitable for multiple cartridges because of the erroneous implication the firearm rather than the cartridge is a primary determinant of injury characteristics. Thewellman (talk) 02:57, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes The NYT is a reliable source, but it may need to be attributed if any RS challenges any of this.Slatersteven (talk) 08:49, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes Yes, obviously a RS and should be included. Contrary to some assertions above, the muzzle velocity and damage caused is certainly not a function of the cartridge only. It also depends on the barrel, and is generally greater for longer barrel lengths. Waleswatcher (talk) 12:06, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- Of course it's an obvious RS, regardless of whatever original research or fantasies people concoct to try and change that fact. Maybe should be attributed at most. Some of the comments here are frankly ridiculous ("I know better than the writer therefore it's not RS!") Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:58, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, obviously. A reliable source. Objections seem to be special pleading here. Neutralitytalk 15:11, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
Arbitrary break to minimize edit conflicts
- I think that question #1 kind of misses the point. Why do we care about whether a source is "reliable"? It's so we know whether we can "rely" on it, in our quest to get our facts straight in the article. Are these claims accurate? Well, looking at some even more obviously reliable sources, the answer is "yes". Can you rely on this source? Yes. Is it possible to substitute in a gold-plated academic source? Yes. Is using the "best" source necessary? Well, it's not required by any policy, but as a matter of practical politics, people who don't like the content will have a much harder time saying "You didn't say Mother, May I? when you added that content, because that's only an acceptable source rather than the best possible kind!" (I find it hard to believe that people who know anything about firearms would even pretend that a class of rifles that was originally designed for the US military would be no more dangerous to its targets, or even any different from, any other firearm that can shoot any of the same cartridges. Muzzle velocity is significantly affected by the barrel, not just the cartridge. To put it another way, everything in this list uses the same cartridge, but they do not have identical effects.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:28, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes Reliable Source can be used wherever it is relevant. Journalist conveying qualified expert knowledge. That's what journalists do. SPECIFICO talk 16:16, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, Misleading. The removed content stated "assault rifles, both military and civilian variants:" This would incorrectly lead readers to believe all AR's are assault rifles. The content also attempted to mislead readers by asserting that simply being shot one time from this caliber is so deadly that a instant death is assured.
- I do not believe comparing a rifle with a hand gun is relavent to the proposed articles. It is common knowledge that most rifles are more powerful than a hand gun. The removed content also stated "“What makes injuries from these rifles so deadly…is that the bullets travel so fast" compared to a hand gun. The content is making a very specific claims with velocity, it is just on the high end of this caliber with a very specific barrel length, twist rate and bullet weight. Most rifle calibers have this speed and beyond (with a much bigger bullet). This caliber makes this speed because of it very light and small varmit size bullet. Because mass times speed equals energy, this caliber on the high end has about the same energy as a 44 Magnum, 50 AE, .454 Casull, and about half of .500 S&W Magnum. Most rifles far surpass this. You are also making a distinction with just one caliber in a general article of weapons.
- It would appear that some editor here have just a very basic understanding of firearms, by there comments. And therefor basing there views on this lack of knowledge.
- In most states it is illegal to hunt deer or anything larger with this caliber ammunition, it doesn't offer much stopping power for anything other than small game.
- The WP:BALASP policy states
"An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms , or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial , but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news ."
-72bikers (talk) 23:30, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- No Since this fits the definition of WP:Biomedical information, WP:MEDRS sources are necessary. The New York Times is not a valid source for biomedical information, as per WP:MEDPOP. As Icewhiz has pointed out, there appear to be several decent MEDRS-compliant sources on the topic, those should just be used instead. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 23:33, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that gunshot effects are MEDRS. But even if they are, this is at the bottom of that advisory page: "If WP:MEDRS can be found to support the information, and it is relevant and encyclopedic, then ideally provide a better source yourself. If you cannot find an appropriate source but the material seems accurate, consider adding a [medical citation needed] tag." My interpretation would be to include that citation at the end, if we confirm it's MEDRS, and then have the pros layer in the sources listed above by Jytdog, replacing it.Farcaster (talk) 01:23, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- No...but The question is reliable for what? A number of other editors have hit on many of the issues here. When it comes to the actual study of the trauma we have actual medical sources we can draw on. When it comes to the opinions of the surgeons who were questioned, yes, the article should reliably convey their opinions. How and where this source would makes sense in use? That's a big question. It's not specific or methodical. The opinions are of medical professionals but it's not clear they have the background information or expertise needed to make the assessments (this projectile fired from this barrel does this harm). As was previously mentioned the reported information was anecdotal and was packaged in a way that was advocating a position. So it may be reliable in some cases but not in general. Springee (talk) 01:39, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
*Yes Reliable Source and *Yes is should be included The NYT may bit be the best source, but wounding capabilities are (at least in part) are a reason these weapons have been chosen by the military (indeed have often been a marketing ploy, as in their ability to stop elephants, if the manufacturers consider to ability to inflict injuries notable why should we not?).Slatersteven (talk) 08:37, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- Was it Groundhog Day, Slatersteven? :) Deja vu.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 13:23, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Was it Groundhog Day, Slatersteven? :) Deja vu.
- Pedantic No. The way "exponentially" is used in the cited passage shows that its author was not a scientist. Maproom (talk) 08:43, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- Whether the author is a scientist or not is irrelevant. Further, the formula for kinetic energy is 1/2mv^2 (one-half mass x square of the velocity). So if the bullet travels twice as fast, other things equal, it imparts four times as much energy. That is exponential.Farcaster (talk) 14:03, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- Are you crazy or trying to be funny? If you don't know the difference between quadratic and exponential, go back to primary school. 2$2=4, depending on the operation the $ represents could apply equally well to linear, quadratic, exponential or random. Exponential energy would mean something like 0.5m2^v (which is wrong!). For a constant mass of projectile, by the time we are contemplating quadruple instead of double the velocity, we would have 2^5=32 vs 5^2=25. By the time we are looking at supersonic speeds the slope is huge, so don't come telling us it is all a matter of scientific pickyness. JonRichfield (talk) 05:09, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- No: for two reasons.
- [1] WP:MEDRS is our policy for biomedical information, and The New York Times is not a MEDRS-compliant source. See WP:MEDPOP.
- [2] The conclusion that the NYT author came to is obviously wrong. The Ruger Ranch Rifle and the Ruger's version of the AR-15, each chambered for 5.56×45mm NATO ammunition and each with the same barrel length, have the same muzzle velocity and ballistics when shooting the same ammunition. Yet the NYT claims that assault rifles such as the AR-15 are somehow unique in the wounds that they inflict.
- --Guy Macon (talk) 16:13, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- Guy Macon, you wrote
the NYT claims that assault rifles such as the AR-15 are somehow unique in the wounds that they inflict.
Where in the article does it say that? From what I read, the comparisons to other guns are to handguns, plus a brief mention of shotguns. —DIYeditor , same question to you. Thanks. Waleswatcher (talk) 21:20, 31 May 2018 (UTC)- NYT: "Perhaps no one knows the devastating wounds inflicted by assault-style rifles better than the trauma surgeons who struggle to repair them."
- False by omission or grossly misleading in two ways:
- This is a characteristic of hunting rifles in .223 as well.
- This is not necessarily a characteristic of the most common assault rifle round, the 7.62x39, which some AR-15s fire.
- The NYT article is trying to make it sound like this is in particular a concern with assault-style rifles or with the AR-15, both of which are false. —DIYeditor (talk) 21:54, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Guy Macon, you wrote
- Seriously? You (Waleswatcher) actually read an article that starts out with "perhaps no one knows the devastating wounds inflicted by assault-style rifles better than the trauma surgeons who struggle to repair them. The doctors say they are haunted by their experiences confronting injuries so dire they struggle to find words to describe them" and somehow came to the conclusion that the source didn't claim that assault rifles such as the AR-15 are somehow unique in the wounds that they inflict? Either you are trolling me, grasping at straws to support your POV, or have a WP:CIR problem. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:09, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- It quite clearly doesn't claim that. It doesn't even imply it. What it does say is that of the gunshot wounds commonly seen by these surgeons, those inflicted by assault-style rifles are by far the worst. Quite possibly if lots of people were getting shot by high-powered hunting rifles instead of handguns, that wouldn't be the case. Waleswatcher (talk) 16:57, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- Seriously? You (Waleswatcher) actually read an article that starts out with "perhaps no one knows the devastating wounds inflicted by assault-style rifles better than the trauma surgeons who struggle to repair them. The doctors say they are haunted by their experiences confronting injuries so dire they struggle to find words to describe them" and somehow came to the conclusion that the source didn't claim that assault rifles such as the AR-15 are somehow unique in the wounds that they inflict? Either you are trolling me, grasping at straws to support your POV, or have a WP:CIR problem. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:09, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- No per Guy Macon above, simply and clearly explained. I was on the fence but I think he sums it up. This type of information (from a RS) belongs in 5.56x45 NATO where there is already a section about it, and probably in articles about weapons which are chambered for that round. This NYT article is not a reliable source for this topic and is anecdotal rather than scientific. It is misleading as well in characterizing this as a quality of the AR-15 when other rifles, even bolt-action hunting rifles, are chambered for the same round.
- Sorry for equivocating. —DIYeditor (talk) 22:24, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- No per prior. Also, where the user is trying to put this source is not the right place. This article is about a specific type of firearm/bullet. If anything, at the very least that would be something to put on the page for that type of rifle. Reb1981 (talk) 03:00, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Reb1981 Could you please clarify your comment? The proposal is to put this text on (as you said) "the page for that type of rifle". The NYT article and text in question is about assault rifles and specifically mentions the M-16 and AR-15. So you said "No" but your text says "yes."Farcaster (talk) 21:24, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes the New York Times is reliable for the proposed text. The material is properly attributed to medical professionals interviewed by a highly-reliable source. The claims are not extraordinary, although the word "exponentially" is somewhat vague. The first paragraph of WP:MEDRS explains why the guideline is being improperly cited by those in the 'No" camp: It's implausible that Assault rifle, Assault weapon, or AR-15 style rifle would ever be used as a source for health information by any non-insane person. Also, the unqualified original research by some of the opposers who are attempting to refute what is in a reliable source should have no bearing on the outcome of this poll. I would support A Quest For Knowledge's version also.- MrX 🖋 13:49, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- It's a good thing it's not up to you to evaluate the outcome of this, pointing out obvious factual errors isn't "unqualified original research"... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 14:36, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Opinions from anonymous people on the internet are not facts. There is a reason why we cite sources, and not what editors think they know.- MrX 🖋 14:51, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- The claims that wounds depend on the ammunition and that assault rifles, AR-15 style rifles and assault weapons can be had in many different calibers are of course easily sourced, so no, it's not original research. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 14:59, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Opinions from anonymous people on the internet are not facts. There is a reason why we cite sources, and not what editors think they know.- MrX 🖋 14:51, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- It's a good thing it's not up to you to evaluate the outcome of this, pointing out obvious factual errors isn't "unqualified original research"... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 14:36, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
Ruger AR-556 40.9 cm Ranch Rifle 46.99, so no they do not have the same barrel length.Slatersteven (talk) 14:45, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Slatersteven: You're wrong, the Ruger Ranch Rifle can be had with barrel lengths from 13" to 22" (even though 16" is minimum legal barrel length for civilians AFAIK), so yes, both of those rifles can be had with the exact same barrel length. You have double-!voted here, BTW, so when are you going to strike your extra vote? - Tom | Thomas.W talk 14:59, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry, but the fact they come if different barrel lengths means we would need to see what the comparable MV are. So can we have the MV's of the 16.12 inch barrels for both guns (sourced of course)?Slatersteven (talk) 15:08, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- AR-556 16.10", Mini-14 (i.e. Ranch Rifle), 16.12". - Tom | Thomas.W talk 15:11, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- I know they both exist, I want to know what the MV is?Slatersteven (talk) 15:13, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- If both use the same ammunition from the same manufacturing batch the muzzle velocity is of course identical. Manufacturers can't give a "fixed" muzzle velocity since it depends on which ammunition is being used (bullet weight, propellant type, propellant quantity etc). - Tom | Thomas.W talk 15:22, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- So then neither can eds on Wikipedia, which I think was my point.Slatersteven (talk) 15:52, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Slatersteven: Que? Think again, but do it right this time. If two firearms are chambered for the same cartridge, have the same barrel length and fire the same ammunition their muzzle velocity will be identical, but what that muzzle velocity will be depends on which ammunition they use (bulletweight, propellant type, propellant quantity). There's a wide range of ammunition available for 5.56x45mm, with different muzzle velocity for a given barrel length for each of them, which is why muzzle velocity is given by ammunition manufacturers, not rifle manufacturers... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 16:29, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Editor Slatersteven no disrespect meant. Are you sure you understand what you are replying to? Editor Tom is saying (what is common knowledge) gun manufacturers do not give velocities for there guns. Ammo manufacturers do give velocities and will state barrel length they tested for this velocity. The speed is determined by the ammo and barrel, not the gun as a whole or type of gun. Velocities can vary significantly from manufacturer to manufacturer and the same exact ammo can vary from box to box. These issues are why I made the statement that perhaps editors were not fully understanding this content fully. Not trying to be mean or basing my vote by, just some constructive criticism trying to resolve this issue -72bikers (talk) 16:49, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Slatersteven, Re: your claim that the Ruger AR-15 and Ruger Ranch Rifle Ruger do not have the same barrel length, first of all, the fact that (like most rifles) both are available in a variety of barrel lengths and that some of the available barrel lengths match up is easily verifiable. Second, your point is irrelevant unless you are prepared to make the dubious claim that all 5.56×45mm NATO assault rifles have significantly longer/shorter barrel lengths than all conventional 5.56×45mm wooden-stock rifles. It's as if I had pointed out the stupidity of some ER doctor claiming that (based of a tiny sample) Fords cause worse wounds than Chevrolets and you responded by saying that the Ford Mustang and the Chevrolet Bolt have different vehicle weights and different top speeds. That's true, but has zero relevance to the question of whether Fords cause worse wounds than Chevrolets, and it is certainly possible to pick a Ford and a Chevrolet that weight roughly the same. If a Ford and a Chevy are the same weight, go the same speed, and have essentially the same front end, then the wounds they make when hitting a pedestrian are the same. This is true even if there exists an organized political movement to demonize Fords and not Chevrolets. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:12, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Editor Slatersteven no disrespect meant. Are you sure you understand what you are replying to? Editor Tom is saying (what is common knowledge) gun manufacturers do not give velocities for there guns. Ammo manufacturers do give velocities and will state barrel length they tested for this velocity. The speed is determined by the ammo and barrel, not the gun as a whole or type of gun. Velocities can vary significantly from manufacturer to manufacturer and the same exact ammo can vary from box to box. These issues are why I made the statement that perhaps editors were not fully understanding this content fully. Not trying to be mean or basing my vote by, just some constructive criticism trying to resolve this issue -72bikers (talk) 16:49, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Slatersteven: Que? Think again, but do it right this time. If two firearms are chambered for the same cartridge, have the same barrel length and fire the same ammunition their muzzle velocity will be identical, but what that muzzle velocity will be depends on which ammunition they use (bulletweight, propellant type, propellant quantity). There's a wide range of ammunition available for 5.56x45mm, with different muzzle velocity for a given barrel length for each of them, which is why muzzle velocity is given by ammunition manufacturers, not rifle manufacturers... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 16:29, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- So then neither can eds on Wikipedia, which I think was my point.Slatersteven (talk) 15:52, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- If both use the same ammunition from the same manufacturing batch the muzzle velocity is of course identical. Manufacturers can't give a "fixed" muzzle velocity since it depends on which ammunition is being used (bullet weight, propellant type, propellant quantity etc). - Tom | Thomas.W talk 15:22, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- I know they both exist, I want to know what the MV is?Slatersteven (talk) 15:13, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- AR-556 16.10", Mini-14 (i.e. Ranch Rifle), 16.12". - Tom | Thomas.W talk 15:11, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry, but the fact they come if different barrel lengths means we would need to see what the comparable MV are. So can we have the MV's of the 16.12 inch barrels for both guns (sourced of course)?Slatersteven (talk) 15:08, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose. The NYT may be a RS, but that doesn't make everything they print correct or usable (Jayson Blair anyone?). In this case, some doctors gave anecdotal information, not presenting the results of actual studies. If this was all as correct as it is presented, I wonder why the US military is looking at going to a larger caliber rifle? Niteshift36 (talk) 15:19, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose The NYT article for the specific text listed. In general the NYT is a reliable sources but in this situation they are not. As cited all over better sources are available for this information, so purpose those instead. No comment on the text in general since that is not he purpose of this board. PackMecEng (talk) 15:38, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Support inclusion for the three articles listed, per WP:DUE. Interviews with trauma surgeons with military experience is not anecdotal evidence. In any case, other sources listed in this discussion support these conclusions. --K.e.coffman (talk) 18:04, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Um, yes, it it anecdotal. No matter what their experience is or where they got it, when they are answering based on their experience, that is exactly what anecdotal evidence is. Can you explain how basing it on personal experience is NOT anecdotal? Niteshift36 (talk) 20:41, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Um, no, it's called "expert opinion". K.e.coffman (talk) 20:42, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- They are experts in medicine. No dispute there. But when their opinion is based on their own experiences, not through actual study, it's anecdotal. Do you even know what the word means? "based on personal observation, case study reports, or random investigations rather than systematic scientific evaluation" They are reporting their own observations. It's the very definition of it. Or you just know more than the dictionary? Niteshift36 (talk) 14:58, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Nah, it's expert opinion. Do you even know what these words mean? And please stop badgering other editors; I've submitted my iVote and I'm not changing it. --K.e.coffman (talk) 18:41, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- The old classic: "Don't confuse me with facts, I've already made up my mind"... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 18:51, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
please stop badgering other editors; I've submitted my iVote and I'm not changing it.
K.e.coffman (talk) 19:07, 31 May 2018 (UTC)- Thomas.W and Niteshift36, I might point out that C.J. Chivers (one of the two authors of the article) is a former Army captain who served in the first Gulf War, and is the author of a book called "The Gun", about the AK-47. Waleswatcher (talk) 21:24, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Waleswatcher: What has being a former military officer got to do with anything?. This is about being an expert on the characteristics of wounds caused by being hit by a bullet from a certain type of firearms, not about being an expert on how to pull the trigger. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 21:37, 31 May 2018 (UTC) (If being a former military officer automatically made someone an expert on wound characteristics I'd be an expert on this too...)
- Thomas.W and Niteshift36, I might point out that C.J. Chivers (one of the two authors of the article) is a former Army captain who served in the first Gulf War, and is the author of a book called "The Gun", about the AK-47. Waleswatcher (talk) 21:24, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- The old classic: "Don't confuse me with facts, I've already made up my mind"... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 18:51, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Nah, it's expert opinion. Do you even know what these words mean? And please stop badgering other editors; I've submitted my iVote and I'm not changing it. --K.e.coffman (talk) 18:41, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- They are experts in medicine. No dispute there. But when their opinion is based on their own experiences, not through actual study, it's anecdotal. Do you even know what the word means? "based on personal observation, case study reports, or random investigations rather than systematic scientific evaluation" They are reporting their own observations. It's the very definition of it. Or you just know more than the dictionary? Niteshift36 (talk) 14:58, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Um, no, it's called "expert opinion". K.e.coffman (talk) 20:42, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Um, yes, it it anecdotal. No matter what their experience is or where they got it, when they are answering based on their experience, that is exactly what anecdotal evidence is. Can you explain how basing it on personal experience is NOT anecdotal? Niteshift36 (talk) 20:41, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- No. The source is unreliable, whether NY Times or Captain Marvel comics or self-styled "expert opinion". The reporter either is quoting unreliable sources without comprehension, or has mutilated a reliable source by lack of comprehension of technical terms. For example, the effect of a bullet's velocity on the wound is not exponential in any useful sense, except perhaps "lots and lots and lots". WP is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not Ripley's Believe it or not. The effect of the relative velocity of a bullet, on the form and scale of the wound it causes, is related to many variables apart from energy, and besides, the energy in a moving projectile is kinetic, which rises quadratically with velocity, not exponentially. Is that the sort of garbage we are to be retailing? I hope' not! 04:48, 31 May 2018 (UTC) JonRichfield (talk) 05:09, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- @JonRichfield Please look up the definition of exponential, then update your comment.Farcaster (talk) 14:00, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Farcaster OK, I looked it up, just to please you, please note, so don' t say I never do anything for you. Now what part of my comment did you think needed updating? What did you think it meant? JonRichfield (talk) 17:28, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Qualified support the NYT is an acceptable source for these interviews, but better context is needed than what is provided in the quote and consensus would be needed at a particular article to include such an extensive quote. As noted by various other editors, the cosmetic and rate-of-fire characteristics of a semi-auto rifle do not affect the terminal ballistics of each bullet. This is an easily sourced observation, and any claims to the contrary need to meet WP:REDFLAG. Further, the article is comparing the terminal ballistics of intermediate cartridges to the affects of (relatively common) pistol rounds - full-power rifle rounds do not appear to be considered at all. Finally, this is RSN - we can assess reliability, but not whether specific content should be included at a particular article. That should be determined, considering other policies and guidelines as well, at the article talk page. For example, here the content was contested on the grounds of editorial consensus and relevance, neither of which are going to be reversed by a discussion here. VQuakr (talk) 15:08, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Weak support - I would prefer the experts be cited directly, but if those sources aren't available, this is acceptable. The phrase "exponentially greater" is being used in a lay sense of simply meaning "a lot larger"; a scientific assessment (that a 3x velocity means a 9x increase in energy) would be better than directly quoting that sentence. power~enwiki (π, ν) 19:27, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- A 3x increase in velocity meaning a 9x increase in energy is technically true, but if you're comparing two different types of weapon it's true only if the bullets weigh the same (½x bullet weight x velocity squared), which they don't if you compare an AR-15 to a handgun, since handgun bullets are much heavier than bullets used in 5.56x45mm ammo (twice the weight if it's the most common 9mm ammo, 4x the weight if it's the most common .45ACP ammo...). If you compare with a 9x19mm handgun it's also not 3x the velocity since a typical muzzle velocity for that caliber is ~1,200ft/s with a 124 gr bullet... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 20:25, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Support within limits - from my reading, the source is saying that wounds from rifles like the AR-15 and M16 are more severe than more common (for civilians) handguns and shotgun wounds, which seems fine and isn't contradicted by anything I can find. It's true that some conventional rifles might cause even more severe wounds than an AR-15, but the AR-15 is the most popular rifle in America so it gets more coverage. By the same token: SUVs pose more danger to pedestrians compared to a standard sized sedan. Ceteris paribus, getting run over by a tank is worse than either, but it's also far more rare so it receives less comment. Nblund talk 19:39, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose - Of course this isn't a reliable source because the NYT has openly taken a political position on gun control in general and assault rifles specifically. As such the information contained within these articles, which was written by two reporters, has to be considered a POV given by somebody who is not an authority on the subject. Since the article is POV by nature and written by somebody who isn't an authority on the issue, how can it be utilized in Wikipedia without making the article POV? Syr74 (talk) 04:29, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- First of all, taking a position doesn't make a source unreliable. For example, the Congressional Budget Office takes the position that tax cuts increase deficits relative to a baseline without those tax cuts, and their information is considered unbiased and definitive on the subject. Second, in terms of NPOV, from the Wikipedia NPOV page: "As a general rule, do not remove sourced information from the encyclopedia solely on the grounds that it seems biased. Instead, try to rewrite the passage or section to achieve a more neutral tone. Biased information can usually be balanced with material cited to other sources to produce a more neutral perspective, so such problems should be fixed when possible through the normal editing process. Remove material only where you have a good reason to believe it misinforms or misleads readers in ways that cannot be addressed by rewriting the passage."Farcaster (talk) 15:30, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- This is a discussion about whether the NYT article is a reliable source for the proposed text or not (which is why this is called the "Reliable Sources Noticeboard"...). Whether the addition violates WP:NPOV (including WP:UNDUE) or not, and should be balanced by addition of other material or not included at all, is the next step, but such discussions take place on each article. Either after a discussion at RSN is over or, as in this case (since those discussions are already taking place there), in parallel with this discussion. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 15:57, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- Wikipedia states that a relevant source can be a biased source, but goes on to suggest that such a source would contain reliable and pertinent information. The New York Times has been embroiled in several scandals within just the 21st century that have damaged the reputation of the paper, many of which have led to retractions and omissions including the New York Times citing that, at one point, their reporting was factually biased due to 'institutional issues'. That is literally an admission that lying to push a viewpoint had become an accepted tactic of leadership. This included the termination of a prominent reporter at the paper who, according to the paper, distorted facts over the course of several years and an admission that the paper had been less than honest during reporting up to and during the Global War on Terror/Iraq War. The issue isn't just that they are biased but, rather, that they have a relatively recent track record of allowing that bias to lead them to go so far as to be dishonest to push a political view point. As such, reliability ought to be questioned. Syr74 (talk) 19:49, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- I would direct you to Wikipedia:NEWSORG which states: "News sources often contain both factual content and opinion content. "News reporting" from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact (though even the most reputable reporting sometimes contains errors). News reporting from less-established outlets is generally considered less reliable for statements of fact."Farcaster (talk) 04:00, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
- Direct away, but you aren't addressing the issue I brought up. My problem here isn't one of opinion vs fact, rather my issue is with the fact that the New York Times itself has, on multiple occasions, stated that items published in their paper have been untrue and this in relatively recent history. A lie is not an opinion, and absolutely speaks to reliability. If the paper can't police their own reporters and editors reliability then they cannot be considered reliable. Syr74 (talk) 22:59, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
- I would direct you to Wikipedia:NEWSORG which states: "News sources often contain both factual content and opinion content. "News reporting" from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact (though even the most reputable reporting sometimes contains errors). News reporting from less-established outlets is generally considered less reliable for statements of fact."Farcaster (talk) 04:00, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
- Wikipedia states that a relevant source can be a biased source, but goes on to suggest that such a source would contain reliable and pertinent information. The New York Times has been embroiled in several scandals within just the 21st century that have damaged the reputation of the paper, many of which have led to retractions and omissions including the New York Times citing that, at one point, their reporting was factually biased due to 'institutional issues'. That is literally an admission that lying to push a viewpoint had become an accepted tactic of leadership. This included the termination of a prominent reporter at the paper who, according to the paper, distorted facts over the course of several years and an admission that the paper had been less than honest during reporting up to and during the Global War on Terror/Iraq War. The issue isn't just that they are biased but, rather, that they have a relatively recent track record of allowing that bias to lead them to go so far as to be dishonest to push a political view point. As such, reliability ought to be questioned. Syr74 (talk) 19:49, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- This is a discussion about whether the NYT article is a reliable source for the proposed text or not (which is why this is called the "Reliable Sources Noticeboard"...). Whether the addition violates WP:NPOV (including WP:UNDUE) or not, and should be balanced by addition of other material or not included at all, is the next step, but such discussions take place on each article. Either after a discussion at RSN is over or, as in this case (since those discussions are already taking place there), in parallel with this discussion. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 15:57, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- First of all, taking a position doesn't make a source unreliable. For example, the Congressional Budget Office takes the position that tax cuts increase deficits relative to a baseline without those tax cuts, and their information is considered unbiased and definitive on the subject. Second, in terms of NPOV, from the Wikipedia NPOV page: "As a general rule, do not remove sourced information from the encyclopedia solely on the grounds that it seems biased. Instead, try to rewrite the passage or section to achieve a more neutral tone. Biased information can usually be balanced with material cited to other sources to produce a more neutral perspective, so such problems should be fixed when possible through the normal editing process. Remove material only where you have a good reason to believe it misinforms or misleads readers in ways that cannot be addressed by rewriting the passage."Farcaster (talk) 15:30, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- No, none -
- "Is the New York Times a reliable source for bullet wound characteristics?" - No That's a bit mis-stated and a mis-quoted bit here but being literal no, NYT is not an expert in medicine or ballistics. They have some WP:NEWSORG ability to be RS for statements OF others, but they cannot judge among statements and the text in question did not attribute the words as being those solely of Dr. Schreiber. The two journalists seem to have relevant background, and the Doctor apparently has some battlefield wound experience -- but none apparent regarding AR-15, and obviously not expert in ballistics which is what the article context is making statements about. As others noted, incorrect statements. This text is talking speed which is a factor from cartridge and barrel length and not what 'style' the barrel is mounted in. So you'd see non-'military' rifles better than some models of AR-15 with identical cartridges, and some handguns over 2000fps but not as lethal as 'slow' but big impact of a 44 magnum or 50 S&W.
- "Which article(s), if any, should this be included in?" None. Even if restated to just military and noting just Dr. Schreiber -- there is no particular reason to put his particular words filtered thru NYT and then WP as something authritative or famous.
- Cheers Markbassett (talk) 03:27, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- No. Newspapers are RS for news. Technical detail filtered thru journalists often turns into nonsense. If it were an direct interview with a recognized expert, whose words were a direct unedited non-cherry-picked speech, we could have attributed some technical info the expert, but never to the NYT. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:03, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
Discussion
Question #2 is off topic for this noticeboard as phrased and should be stricken. It combines consideration of DUE weight and NPOV with reliable sourcing. If it were to remain here it should ask whether it is a RS for particular articles, instead it begs for an extended discussion on a number of topics. Also not phrased in a simple manner per RfC instructions because it fails to provide any background - totally open discussion would be instigated. Since the RfC has already started and there are responses, the malformed question #2 should simply be removed from consideration here. —DIYeditor (talk) 21:13, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
- The two main concerns are "The NY Times article is not a reliable source, period" and "The source isn't talking about the topic of this article, but you might try adding it somewhere else." In fact you've admitted to using the latter argument to
make Farcaster someone else's problem
by sending them to another article where you believe their edit will be rejected, when you actually believed it would be more relevant to a third article. I'm hoping to "kill two birds with one stone" and avoid sending Farcaster on another Fool's errand. My intent was to determine which article the source is about, since it mentions several different models and we don't have a Military-style rifle article. - I agree that
...whether it is a RS for particular articles
is a better way to phrase it. PerhapsIf the
would be a better question. –dlthewave ☎ 00:33, 28 May 2018 (UTC)statementsource is found to bereliably sourcedreliable, which article(s) (if any)should it be added tois it a reliable source for?- Yes I think that would be the right way to handle it. And maybe list it as "which of the following articles" and list them with the RFC question because I originally missed the line below the text which listed the articles. Maybe it's just my problem but it seems like the formatting was a little confusing. My main point was to clarify that a finding of "reliable source" here is not a definitive answer on whether to include it. As a note, I did not think I was sending Farcaster on a fool's errand in the sense that the NYT article was not fit for the AR-15 article, I think it probably is, I only meant that the discussion is more appropriate there. I do think he would run into the same degree of reaction against it there but I don't at this point agree with that reaction. —DIYeditor (talk) 00:52, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- Let me further say, I was confused a bit by the "proposed text" being included when the survey questions were not about the proposed text. I don't think we can address the proposed text here except as far as to say if it is based on the RS correctly - and that would be a question #3. I focused mainly on the two questions as they were worded, which is really what an RfC is supposed to be, and I think we have been somewhat talking at cross purposes because of this. —DIYeditor (talk) 01:08, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- Why NYT (yes, a gold-standard for journalism, but this is not a journalism issue) - and not actual journals and serious publications? e.g. [5], [6] (yes a presentation, but their paper is probably interesting and they have results in a nice chart), [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12].Icewhiz (talk) 11:12, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- I believe that's not really the source of the dispute. The editors who want to include this kind of information would be happy having better sources (they just used what they found available); the editors who don't want to include this kind of information will not be happy no matter how "perfect" the source is. People who don't see it as a political issue may be a little confused about why this isn't standard information for all articles about firearms. What happens to the target is relevant even if your context is purely subsistence hunting. You can't eat pink mist (a bullet that shreds isn't so handy if you want to eat squirrel meat), but you do need a bullet that hits with enough force to kill your next meal. But here, I think that the complaints about the source quality are just the first step in complaining about whether the information belongs in the article at all. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:38, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- @WhatamIdoing: You seem to have missed the point entirely. Those who object to adding it to the articles it was added to do so because it, for the reasons given in multiple posts above, simply doesn't belong in those articles, but in articles about the cartridges (in this case the 5.56x45mm). Where there's no need for the NYT article since that information in many/most cases already exists in those articles... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 15:47, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- I'm looking at this from a WP:MEDRS perspective as well as from a non-US-centric perspective. I think it would be interesting if we quantified the "deadliness" of assault rifles (which, BTW, in what I skimmed through some of the links above regarding the M-16/AR-15 has actually more to do with the bullet breaking up/fragmenting in the body and less with velocity) vs. other types of guns - but I really do not think that the motivation of the really RECNETISM (in terms of how "hot" a topic this is) of gun control vs. assault-like guns due to school shootings should be the motivating factor.Icewhiz (talk) 15:58, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- Actually, Tom, if the problem is "doesn't belong in those articles", then I'm correct: The actual problem is not about whether the source is reliable for the claims being made. The actual problem is that some editors don't want this information in these articles at all. If you personally believe that it belongs in another article, then of course please feel free to copy it there. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:01, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- You hit the nail on the head WhatamIdoing; I think that is the real issue here. The NRA caucus doesn't want this sort of graphic description of what these rifles actually do seeing the light of day.Farcaster (talk) 04:25, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- I am uncomfortable assigning political views to any editor. I agree with you that this dispute really belongs at WP:NPOVN instead of RSN. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:47, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- Icewhiz, the deadliness of assault rifles vs. other types of guns has already been established. The answer is "identical if the cartridge and barrel length are the same". BTW, at the range at which most shootings occur, a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with #4 Buckshot (twenty four 1/4-inch lead balls traveling at about 1,200 feet per second) is far more deadly than any assault rifle. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:49, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- I am uncomfortable assigning political views to any editor. I agree with you that this dispute really belongs at WP:NPOVN instead of RSN. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:47, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- You hit the nail on the head WhatamIdoing; I think that is the real issue here. The NRA caucus doesn't want this sort of graphic description of what these rifles actually do seeing the light of day.Farcaster (talk) 04:25, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- Actually, Tom, if the problem is "doesn't belong in those articles", then I'm correct: The actual problem is not about whether the source is reliable for the claims being made. The actual problem is that some editors don't want this information in these articles at all. If you personally believe that it belongs in another article, then of course please feel free to copy it there. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:01, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- I'm looking at this from a WP:MEDRS perspective as well as from a non-US-centric perspective. I think it would be interesting if we quantified the "deadliness" of assault rifles (which, BTW, in what I skimmed through some of the links above regarding the M-16/AR-15 has actually more to do with the bullet breaking up/fragmenting in the body and less with velocity) vs. other types of guns - but I really do not think that the motivation of the really RECNETISM (in terms of how "hot" a topic this is) of gun control vs. assault-like guns due to school shootings should be the motivating factor.Icewhiz (talk) 15:58, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- @WhatamIdoing: You seem to have missed the point entirely. Those who object to adding it to the articles it was added to do so because it, for the reasons given in multiple posts above, simply doesn't belong in those articles, but in articles about the cartridges (in this case the 5.56x45mm). Where there's no need for the NYT article since that information in many/most cases already exists in those articles... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 15:47, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- Comment whether NYT is generally regarded as RS is irrelevant. If a particular source publishes patently illiterate or innumerate garbage, it certainly is not a reliable source in that context at least. The quote's source is nonsensical in terms of school physics, never mind real-world wound ballistic technicalities, so it is not merely unreliable but wrong. No matter how reliably the report uncritically quotes nonsense, that does not make it reliable. If it is not reliable for this article, that does not make it reliable in any other article whatsoever, politically slanted or not, unless perhaps as a horrible example in an article on lousy reporting. JonRichfield (talk) 05:26, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
Next steps
So editor Thomas.W has made it clear on my talk page this content will never see the light of day on these articles, and that the straw poll is not binding. What are the next steps? The most reasonable action based on the discussion thus far is either: 1) Include as is with a medical tag, perhaps with some copy edits; 2) Include the academic sources mentioned by Jytdog either along with it or instead of it.Farcaster (talk) 14:29, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- That is of course not what I wrote, just Farcaster's usual deliberate misrepresentation of things. What I wrote was that it is up to editors on each of the articles that Farcaster wants to get the material into to decide whether their very POV own interpretation (see discussion above) of the NYT story should be included in the article or not, based on WP:NPOV/WP:UNDUE and other policies... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 14:45, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- I believe that you are incorrect about RfCs not being binding. According to WP:CCC, they are not binding forever, and you can re-ask the same question in a new RfC, but not immediately after the old RfC closed. Until you can demonstrate the the consensus has changed (or that one of the exceptions in WP:CONEXCEPT applies), the result of an RfC is binding. And of course you can challenge the result if you believe that the closing summary got it wrong. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:50, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
RfCs are binding, butAFAIK RSN only decides on whether a particular source is reliable or not, not on whether a certain personal interpretation of what that source source says (which the proposed text is, see the long discussion above) can be included in specific articles or not, that should be decided through consensus on the articles, taking all other relevant policies into consideration. As can be seen in the discussion above the NYT article in question is also not seen as MEDRS-compliant. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 16:59, 29 May 2018 (UTC)- @Thomas.W:
This page is for posting questions regarding whether particular sources are reliable in context
(emphasis mine). The RSN instructions state that the specific statement in question is to be included in the initial post. - In other words, we discuss whether or not the source reliably supports a specific statement in a certain context, not just the overall reliability of the source itself. In this case we're discussing whether the source supports the proposed text in the context of a certain category of weapon, type of ammunition or model of rifle. –dlthewave ☎ 17:53, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Thomas.W:
- No RfCs are NOT binding which is why other forms of DR may continue even after an RfC.(Littleolive oil (talk) 17:09, 29 May 2018 (UTC))
- I believe that you are incorrect about RfCs not being binding. According to WP:CCC, they are not binding forever, and you can re-ask the same question in a new RfC, but not immediately after the old RfC closed. Until you can demonstrate the the consensus has changed (or that one of the exceptions in WP:CONEXCEPT applies), the result of an RfC is binding. And of course you can challenge the result if you believe that the closing summary got it wrong. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:50, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- Some people seem to think that the discussion has been "won" by those who want to include the material, but a quick count seems to indicate that those who oppose inclusion are at least equal in number to those who support inclusion, those who oppose also bring up serious questions about using the NYT as a source for something that would normally require a MEDRS-compliant source. So this aint over yet... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 18:12, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- First of all, there's a lot of confusion about WP:MEDRS here. That guideline doesn't forbid using the popular press; instead, it encourages us to "seek out the scholarly research behind the news story" and to "cite a higher-quality source along with a more-accessible popular source". So editors should be looking deeper, for other sources, rather than using MEDRS as a roadblock. Jytdog has shown, above, that there are numerous scholarly sources supporting the content of the Times article and the quoted trauma surgeons. Here's another one: PMID 19644779 states, among other things:
Sellier and Kneubuehl state that the temporary cavity is the most important factor in wound ballistics of high velocity rifle bullets, and that almost all biological phenomena can be explained by it... The temporary cavity also has little or no wounding potential with handgun bullets because the amount of kinetic energy deposited in the tissue is insufficient to cause remote injuries. The size of the temporary cavity is approximately proportional to the kinetic energy of the striking bullet and also the amount of resistance the tissue has to stress...
- ... which is a fancier way of saying exactly what the quoted trauma surgeons said in the Times article. The review goes on to talk about yaw etc. There are a number of other scholarly sources saying, in essence, exactly what the Times piece says, but I'd like some of the involved editors from this thread, who feel that the Times is an unreliable source, to do the work of finding them.
- Putting on my administrative hat, I'm concerned to see a number of frankly bizarre and off-base comments in this extended thread; people are arguing that the Times is unreliable because it contains "anecdotal evidence, as such not reliable", because it "has an axe to grind", because the Times has intentionally misrepresented the quoted trauma surgeons (no evidence is presented for this rather startling accusation), because the quoted trauma surgeons apparently don't have enough case volume to qualify as experts (according to a random Wikipedian), because of some gunsplaining nonsense ("It would appear that some editor here have just a very basic understanding of firearms, by there comments. And therefor basing there views on this lack of knowledge" [sic]), and so on. It should go without saying that not only are these invalid objections, but they are well outside the realm of reasonable policy-based discussion. Moreover, as WhatamIdoing has noted, the dynamic at play in this thread is concerning: "The editors who want to include this kind of information would be happy having better sources (they just used what they found available); the editors who don't want to include this kind of information will not be happy no matter how 'perfect' the source is."
- If these sorts of arguments are relied upon to exclude content, or to attempt to disqualify obviously reliable sources, that may constitute tendentious and disruptive editing and may become an issue for administrative attention. I guess this is as good a place as any to notify, or remind, thread participants that gun-control-related articles remain under standard discretionary sanctions. MastCell Talk 19:33, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- @MastCell: It's worth noting that how severe a wound is depends entirely on the properties of the bullet, it's velocity and where it hits, not on which type of firearm it was fired from. No one objects to adding the material to articles about cartridges, in fact many such articles already have that kind of information, the objections are to adding the material to articles about types of weapons, with very wide variation within each type when it comes to calibers and potential wounds (Assault rifle, AR-15 style rifle and Assault weapon), even though the information is valid for only a subset of each type, without telling readers that the information isn't valid for all weapons of each type. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 19:58, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks MastCell, a helpful explanation of the invalid arguments on the "No/Exclude" side.Farcaster (talk) 21:25, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- There appears to be a attempt to cheery-pick issues and not address legitimate concerns. The WP:BALASP policy states
"An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms , or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial , but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news ."
-72bikers (talk) 21:31, 29 May 2018 (UTC)- So an administrator spoke and explained in detail why most of the "No/exclude" votes are invalid. So who is going to include the text? Or do we need another administrator?Farcaster (talk) 15:08, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- It's almost unbelievable how little you know about how things work here, considering your account was created ten years ago. The words/opinions of administrators carry no extra weight in discussions, but are equal to those of peon editors. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 15:17, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- By my count it is 8 to include and 14 to not. That is almost a 2 to 1 for no inclusion in the proposed articles. -72bikers (talk) 15:46, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- At the time of this count, it's 14 to "exclude" the content, 12 to "include", and 2 participants (MastCell and Thewellman) with no conclusion offered. However, dropping invalid arguments (e.g., votes to "exclude" due to Anecdotal, Not RS, MEDRS, and "I know better than the NYT"), at least 12 of the 14 "exclude" votes would carry no weight. This puts us at +10 (12-2) in favor of adding.Farcaster (talk) 23:14, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Bikers, this RFC only opened a few days ago. It is way too soon to be counting up !votes, and declaring a “winner”. The ratio may well change as the RFC continues (not predicting that it will, just warning that it might... I have seen it happen in the past). Have some patience. Blueboar (talk) 16:19, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Blueboar: Biker's comment was probably a reply to Farcaster's comment yesterday morning (US time), declaring "victory" for the include-side... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 16:37, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- obviously that was too soon as well. Blueboar (talk) 16:42, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry for any misunderstanding. I was not trying to drawn any conclusion. As editor Tom explained just a response to Farcaster-72bikers (talk) 16:57, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Most of the "No" votes have been dismissed. Some argued the NYT was not a reliable source, those count as zero. Some argued MEDRS, that was dismissed, those count as zero. Some argued their own expertise in place of the NYT, those count as zero. Not even close. Again, what's the next step?Farcaster (talk) 17:21, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Farcaster: No, there are no !votes that have been dismissed. People expressing personal opinions about the !votes of others does not automatically lead to those !votes being dismissed, regardless of if the person who expresses that opinion is an admin or not. It's up to whoever closes this discussion (which should be an uninvolved admin since this is a discussion about contentious edits on articles that are under discretionary sanctions) to evaluate the consensus based on Wikipedia policy. Making it highly unlikely that there will be any mass dismissal of !votes here. And please note that there are admins on both the no-side and the yes-side here... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 17:31, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Evidently I need to clarify my role here. It is not my place to "dismiss" specific comments, and I am not going to close this thread with any sort of verdict. My opinion on the content question itself carries no more weight than anyone else's. If this thread is formally closed by an admin, then the closing admin will make a determination about whether to disregard specific !votes. My point is pretty simple: if editors are relying on flagrantly absurd or inappropriate rationales to stonewall or exclude material, anywhere in this topic area, then I will handle that as tendentious/disruptive editing. The questions raised in this thread should be answered by discussion, but that discussion needs to take place within the parameters of site policy. A small group of editors ignorant of site policy cannot hijack or derail the discussion. Right now, I don't see any reason to act administratively, but the content of some commentary here was concerning enough—in terms of being utterly contradictory to site policy—that I felt compelled to say something. MastCell Talk 18:35, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Farcaster: No, there are no !votes that have been dismissed. People expressing personal opinions about the !votes of others does not automatically lead to those !votes being dismissed, regardless of if the person who expresses that opinion is an admin or not. It's up to whoever closes this discussion (which should be an uninvolved admin since this is a discussion about contentious edits on articles that are under discretionary sanctions) to evaluate the consensus based on Wikipedia policy. Making it highly unlikely that there will be any mass dismissal of !votes here. And please note that there are admins on both the no-side and the yes-side here... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 17:31, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Most of the "No" votes have been dismissed. Some argued the NYT was not a reliable source, those count as zero. Some argued MEDRS, that was dismissed, those count as zero. Some argued their own expertise in place of the NYT, those count as zero. Not even close. Again, what's the next step?Farcaster (talk) 17:21, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry for any misunderstanding. I was not trying to drawn any conclusion. As editor Tom explained just a response to Farcaster-72bikers (talk) 16:57, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- obviously that was too soon as well. Blueboar (talk) 16:42, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Blueboar: Biker's comment was probably a reply to Farcaster's comment yesterday morning (US time), declaring "victory" for the include-side... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 16:37, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- By my count it is 8 to include and 14 to not. That is almost a 2 to 1 for no inclusion in the proposed articles. -72bikers (talk) 15:46, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- It's almost unbelievable how little you know about how things work here, considering your account was created ten years ago. The words/opinions of administrators carry no extra weight in discussions, but are equal to those of peon editors. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 15:17, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- So an administrator spoke and explained in detail why most of the "No/exclude" votes are invalid. So who is going to include the text? Or do we need another administrator?Farcaster (talk) 15:08, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- There appears to be a attempt to cheery-pick issues and not address legitimate concerns. The WP:BALASP policy states
- Comment The source quoted was wrong and ignorantly wrong at that, never mind RS. Schluss. At that point it falls off the bus. The quote is not acceptable in this article or any other article, irrespective of other considerations. Whatever the bullet, the firearm, the clothing, the time of the year, the intentions of the victim or the politics of the assailant might have been, nonsense is nonsense, and we need another source, not walls of text on what might have been or why every opposing editor is a dickhead. JonRichfield (talk) 05:37, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
The Hill, Fox News - Part II question
Would any of these sources be considered unreliable here? Would this be a proper way of summarizing?:
The National Council of Resistance of Iran, along with its political wing the People's Mujahedin of Iran, have been described as one of the main political oppositions to the current Government of Islamic Republic of Iran.[1][2][3][4][5]
Thanks again for all the feedback :-) Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 07:50, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
References
- ^ http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/07/02/iranian-opposition-upbeat-as-trump-administration-talks-regime-change.html
- ^ https://www.ft.com/content/c6ace172-33f2-11e8-a3ae-fd3fd4564aa6
- ^ http://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/388723-in-taking-on-iran-and-north-korea-one-size-does-not-fit-all
- ^ Con Coughlin (2010). Khomeini's Ghost: The Iranian Revolution and the Rise of Militant Islam. Ecco. ISBN 978-0061687150.
- ^ Kenneth Katzman (2001). "Iran: The People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran". In Albert V. Benliot (ed.). Iran: Outlaw, Outcast, Or Normal Country?. Nova Publishers. p. 97. ISBN 1560729546.
- It's always context dependent. That said: (1) I would not cite Fox for anything politically contentious, due to the massive evidence of bias. (2) FT is paywalled, I have no idea what this says, but FT is normally RS, its reporting is dry as dust but solid. (3) Opinion pieces in The Hill have gone steadily downhill, descending into little more than propaganda rants, and I would not normally include them in any article now. (4) Coughlin is a reasonable source for journalistic opinion but in a distinctly right of centre context and this book is clearly advancing an agenda so handle with caution. (5) Searching for the author of the book, Albert V. Benliot, does not show any evidence that he is considered a respected authority, this appears to be the only book of his that has been discussed at all, and the publisher, Nova, has a questionable history and was arguably at its worst around the time this book was published. I would exclude this source. So, of the sources you are looking to include, only Coughlin is actually a reliable source for the claim you are trying to make, and given the nature of the claim I would hold out for much more compelling sourcing. If the claim is true then there will be substantially more robust sources. You appear to be quote mining to support what you "know" to be true. That is an exercise in confirmation bias. Guy (Help!) 08:04, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- I agree with posting above more or less. Don't use Fox for anything regarding Iran in particular in the current climate that's highly contentious topic subject to a lot of misrepresentation in particular by outlets like Fox. On most Iranian topics it should be possibly to find scholarly sources or at least sources with a good reputation for (investigative) journalism. As a rule of thumb always check the author (is he an reputable academic in a field related to the topic, did he publish in academic peer reviwed journals, did he write positively reviewed books, did he publish with reputable academic publishers, etc.) and the publisher. JzG did appply that already in more details to the 5 sources above and the conclusion imho is that in doubt don't use any of them but look for better ones.--Kmhkmh (talk) 09:07, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- And why not use Fox regarding Iran?Its like saying don't use BBC or NYPOST regarding Israel.Every newsorg has its own biases.Its no reason not to use it.--Shrike (talk) 09:19, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- No it's not. The BBC has a statutory obligation to balance and an independent complaints procedure for content. NY Post draws a distinction between editorial and hard news content. Fox was set up because in Ailes' mind the real villain of Watergate was the Washington Post and the "liberal media", and its editorial bias is pervasive throughout the vast majority of its content. Its bias is greater, its fact-checking is worse, and its record for separating fact from opinion is terrible. Guy (Help!) 13:29, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- And why not use Fox regarding Iran?Its like saying don't use BBC or NYPOST regarding Israel.Every newsorg has its own biases.Its no reason not to use it.--Shrike (talk) 09:19, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- °Comment. Shrike, at this discussion, you are challenging as not RS, a MPhil. thesis done under the supervision of a world authority on the Middle East in Oxford, which has been cited in the relevant academic literature (5 books), whose survey of newspaper reportage is not contentious, and which has had significant influence in its field, and yet here you are advocating we use Fox News articles on a contentious issue, known for their tendentiousness, and none written by anyone with Bagon's severe academic background, which requires meticulous source control and fact checking? Nishidani (talk) 09:54, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- Again... when in doubt, attribute. There is a huge difference in reliability between: “The Iranians did such and such” and “according to a report by Fox News correspondent so and so, the Iranians did such and such.” Fox might (or might not) be reliable for the first statement (it depends on who reported it)... but it is absolutely reliable for the second statement.
- this all said... I suspect that our WP:NPOV policy is the real issue here, not the reliability of the sources. If you have not read that policy, please do. Blueboar (talk) 12:32, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, Fox News is not a reliable source; if it ever was (arguably it was before 2016), it isn't any more. Maybe it's not WP:DAILYMAIL but it could be the index case for WP:PRAVDA when that gets written. I am alarmed that there are editors who deny it's an obvious fit for WP:QS; that seems like a WP:CIR problem.- Simon Dodd { U·T·C·WP:LAW } 13:12, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- The question is moot because Fox News is not needed, nor are three others. The two book sources by people who either specialize in that field, or who have tertiary credentials in history, are sufficient for the statement (perhaps tweaked with 'most active' per Katzman), and these are (reformatted)
- (a)Con Coughlin Khomeini's Ghost: The Iranian Revolution and the Rise of Militant Islam, Ecco Books 2010 p.377 n.21
- (b) Kenneth Katzman, ‘Iran: The People’S Mohjahedin Organization of Iran in Albert V. Benliot (ed)., Iran: Outlaw, Outcast Or Normal Country?, Nova Publishers, 2001 pp.97-110 p.97
- In short, sources of good quality don't need to be buttressed by newspaper junk.Nishidani (talk) 13:28, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- I addressed Benliot above. That source should also be excluded. So now we have one source by a conservative journalist. I think that rather weakens the case for inclusion of this claim. Guy (Help!) 13:31, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- I don't like either of those sources, but like has nothing to do with it. I'd have a reservation about Coughlin only if he didn't finish his degree under Simon Schama. But Benliot has nothing to do with this, except as editor of the paper by Kenneth Katzman who is a Congressional Researcher, and, whatever his spin, surely qualifies.Nishidani (talk) 13:45, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- I neither like them nor dislike them. I do know, because it's a particular interest of mine, that Benliot's publisher has a very poor history of publishing badly reviewed and biased content, and Benliot himself has no reputation I can see, so that is a clear exclude. So we are left with a single right-wing journalist, for a rather bold claim. That seems problematic to me, especially since all the other suggestions to date have been differently reliable. I start to wonder if it is a thing that some people wish were true, but actually isn't. The dominant view appears to be that they are a terrorist organisation, a front for MeK. Guy (Help!) 12:40, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- I don't like either of those sources, but like has nothing to do with it. I'd have a reservation about Coughlin only if he didn't finish his degree under Simon Schama. But Benliot has nothing to do with this, except as editor of the paper by Kenneth Katzman who is a Congressional Researcher, and, whatever his spin, surely qualifies.Nishidani (talk) 13:45, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- I addressed Benliot above. That source should also be excluded. So now we have one source by a conservative journalist. I think that rather weakens the case for inclusion of this claim. Guy (Help!) 13:31, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- In short, sources of good quality don't need to be buttressed by newspaper junk.Nishidani (talk) 13:28, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
According to analysts including British journalist Con Coughlin, the National Council of Resistance of Iran (along with its political wing the People's Mujahedin of Iran) constitute one of the most active oppositions to the current Government of Islamic Republic of Iran. [1][2]
- ^ )Con Coughlin Khomeini's Ghost: The Iranian Revolution and the Rise of Militant Islam, Ecco Books 2010 p.377 n.21
- ^ Kenneth Katzman, ‘Iran: The People’S Mohjahedin Organization of Iran in Albert V. Benliot (ed)., Iran: Outlaw, Outcast Or Normal Country?, Nova Publishers, 2001 pp.97-110 p.97
Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 15:25, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- Well, 'Iranian opposition' would be necessary. The most powerful and active opposition to Iran comes from the Trumpian US-Netanyahoo-Israel geostrategic coalition. The NCRI is small beer in all of this. There's a problem with defining thePeople's Mujahedin of Iran as the NCRI's political wing: perhaps some source says this, but there are far more sources stating that they are one and the same thing essentially, with the PMOI using the NCRI as its Potemkin village political face, i.e. the other way around. I' m sorry if this is not too helpful, and appreciate your efforts to use this wider forum to iron out a problem. Good luck.Nishidani (talk) 15:52, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- Stefka Bulgaria, can you stop adding this until you have consensus please? You have tried a handful of crappy sources for the same claim, you just included the unreliable Benliot book, and in the end you come across as scratching around for sources for what you "know" to be true, when if it actually is true, it would be trivially easy to reference from much more robust sources. You're trying to say this is one of, if not the, leading opposition group. That is the kind of claim which, if true, would be reflected all over the place, but instead you find only marginal stuff, opinions by a few people. This is a bold claim you seek to make, it's hard to believe it would only appear in books published through crappy publishers, right-wing propaganda sites and journalists' opinions. Guy (Help!) 12:29, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Guy this excision is based on a deceptive, obviously false edit summary. Rereading the above, there is only a discussion about Fox and about attribution. You alone contest Couglin and Katzman, and now that I haves offered a compromise with new materials from Katzman, you still remove it because you can't pin down who the editor of the book he published his piece in is. The you removed two fresh RS as well, just to throttle the additions, feigning that they too had been or were under discussion here.
- Your edit removed
- Manshour Varasteh (Troubador Publishing)
- Con Coughlin published by Pan Macmillan an Imprint of HarperCollins
- Kenneth Katzman of the Congressional Research Service
- Isak Svensson publoished by the University of Queensland Press
- One of the two pieces by Katzman was published by Nova Science Publishers, and you suggest because the criticism page of the wiki article cites some problems and Bentiot is an unknown, it is invalid. If the author is authoritative, we cite him wherever he choses to add his pieces. Bentiot's book in anycase passes the reliable source bar because the work in question is frequently cited in the academic literature (google school) and scholarly monographs or research papers (google it.
If you are in a minority of one on all this, you have no right to remove material thart is the result of a compromise, that has been amplified by further good sourcing, and which contains material not discussed on this board.Nishidani (talk) 18:47, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- WTF? I am asking for a perfectly routine thing: for the editor seeking to include disputed content (and it is disputed: it's been removed several times by different people and he's tried a series of sources of differing but mainly marginal reliability) to gain consensus before including it. This is a bold claim and it needs robust sourcing and it also needs consensus to add it. We are saying that a terrorist group is the main opposition in Iran. Can you see how that is a problematic statement? Guy (Help!) 22:02, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Overlooking the fact that (a) the original disputed sentence has been remodulated to take in concerns (b) three new quality sources have been added to buttres the new formulation (c) we don't state 'a terrorist group is the main opposition in Iran': we state
Many commentators consider the National Council of Resistance of Iran and MEK, its paramilitary arm, variously as the most important or most active Iranian opposition group to the current Government of Islamic Republic of Iran.
- And then immediately afterwards document that it generally considered to be a terrorist group. The whole passage has been thoroughly revised, and you are reverting as if there had been no progress or responsiveness to fair criticism of the original edit. Move on.Nishidani (talk) 07:35, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Comment. The sentence mentioned above is not right. First of all, MEK is not the political wing of the NCRI, but vice versa. MEK is a political–militant organization, NCRI and NLAI are the political and the armed wings respectively. The organization tends to showcase itself as the "Iranian Resistance" or the "main opposition", however this is not a only rejected by other elements of Iranian opposition, but also from scholars. You can find a source or two that call them as such (mostly politically-motivated like Fox News), but that is not a even a strong minority view (RAND's policy conundrum on the group is quite a good secondary source pointing to this). MEK (=NCRI) is pretty unpopular in its home country. Pahlevun (talk) 20:26, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
- Take a look at this edit, which says:
Many commentators consider the People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran (and the National Council of Resistance of Iran, its political wing) as the most important or most active Iranian opposition group to the current Government of Islamic Republic of Iran
.
- Take a look at this edit, which says:
Citation overkill is used to synthesize and support the given sentence:
- Varasteh (2013) is quoting a 2005 annual report from the German Office for the Protection of Constitution that describes it as "the most important opposition group".
- Svensson (2012) is quoting from Abrahamian (1989), 'largest, most disciplined and heavily armed opposition group to the regime', talking about the early years after the revolution. It is not supporting this certain sentence in anyway.
- Katzman (2001) says it is 'Iran's most active opposition group'.
- Footnote from Con Coughlin (2009): "Marian Rajavi, the wife of Masud Rajavi, the leader of National Council of Resistance of Iran, the main opposition to the mullahs, is based in Paris while her husband's Mujaheedin organization is based in Iraq." I find this footnote to be wrong, firstly it wrongly writes Maryam Rajavi as "Marian Rajavi". Secondly, MEK was not "her husband's", the husband and wife were both "co-equal leaders" of the MEK since 1985[1] and Masoud Rajavi was dissapeared in 2003 during Iraq War, so leadership of the group has practically passed to Maryam.[2] After all, Masoud is considered dead. Note that the book is published in 2009. Con Coughlin is a journalist rather than a scholar and I think his views should only be attributed to himself.
Consequently, I think these are not proper to support such a questionable claim in the lead. I suggest Stefka Bulgaria, who is the only user in favor of inclusion, to develop People's Mujahedin of Iran#Status among Iranian opposition. I think then we can come to a consensus over putting a proper sentence in the lead. Pahlevun (talk) 13:19, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
References
- ^ Steven O'Hern (2012). Iran's Revolutionary Guard: The Threat That Grows While America Sleeps. Potomac Books, Inc. p. 208. ISBN 1-59797-701-2.
- ^ Stephen Sloan; Sean K. Anderson (2009). Historical Dictionary of Terrorism. Historical Dictionaries of War, Revolution, and Civil Unrest (3 ed.). Scarecrow Press. p. 454. ISBN 0-8108-6311-1.
Police reports of false rape prevalence
Are individual police departments reliable sources for statements about the prevalence or causes of false accusations of rape and sexual assault?
- Talk page: Talk:False_accusation_of_rape#Finnish_police
An editor added statements from police departments in Helsinki and Rostock which claim that the majority (2/3rds and 80%, respectively) of sexual assault or rape allegations in their districts were false. The figure for Helsinki comes from an unofficial review. I don't find any additional information on the origins of the statement for Rostock. The rate reported in the academic literature is between 2 - 10% Nblund talk 18:31, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- Not reliable: There appears to be virtually no information on how this information was collected or how police categorized accusations as false, and there are no secondary sources that suggest that police in Helsinki or Rostock were viewed as credible or authoritative. Experts in criminology generally don't view police as good sources for these kinds of statistics. The article several sources that find that police regularly miscategorize accusations as "false" based on personal judgements or on misunderstanding the criteria. Nblund talk 19:03, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- Both police estimations are quoted in reliable sources (Yle & Ostsee-Zeitung) so yes, they are reliable, but they might be done in a different way and not comparable to other figures in the article. So the question is to discuss whether they are due to be included in the article, not to discuss the sources itself, I think. --Pudeo (talk) 21:24, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- If the police estimates are covered by reliable sources, and reliable sources do not dispute the estimates, then yes, they are reliable as a general rule. If both the reports and the RS are in non-English, and the subject is contentious, then I advise editors to thoroughly vet that the reports and the RS actually say what some editor claims they say. Years ago I had to overhaul Immigration and Crime and Immigration because unscrupulous/sloppy editors had filled the articles with text that was not at all supported by the RS that were cited. Much of the text and sources seemed to stem from 4chan/Reddit copypasta that was crowdsourced in communities with clear agendas. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 21:33, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- Not directly per WP:PRIMARY, but if you mean are they reliable sources when reported by reliable secondary sources, then yes.- MrX 🖋 13:58, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- In my view, the main issue here is probably going to be making the meaning of the statistics clear. Despite other editors' outlandish claims that feminism leads to women going mad with power and clogging the police departments with false crime reports, it seems improbable to me that Germany and Finland's statistics would be so different from all the other reputable statistics, suggesting that different definitions are being used. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:07, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Regarding primary sourcing: My understanding is that the source is still primary, because the media outlets aren't adding any analysis or interpretation - they're just quoting the police. It appears from the description here that the police are talking about something closer to "unfounded" claims of rape or sexual assault - which is a much larger category that includes - for instance - cases where the investigation was halted because a victim decided to stop cooperating. There's not really enough info here to contextualize these claims, but it seems unlikely that the rate of false accusations in Helsinki is 10 to 12 times higher than the average reported elsewhere. Nblund talk 21:51, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- There's a certain danger the quarrel will continue here and flood the wrong place. but I feel I have to comment something on this. Pudeo (talk) had it right. It's not about if the sources give the police statements right or not, but more about what should be discussed under the name of the article. For that this is wrong place. Roscelese and Nblund know this all more than well.--J. Sketter (talk) 20:04, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Reliable in limited context - (via RSN) I would view them as authoritative first-person sources speaking of their own location and that year, which may be a local anomaly or agree that this may be talking about all 'unfounded' cases rather than just those proven false. I seem to recall an authoritative UK study was something like 80% undetermined, 10-15% proven true, 6% proven false. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 03:46, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
Alternative lending trades
I was referred to this board by another editor in relation to a submission I'm working on. The main topic of debate is what's considered a reliable source in the alternative lending industry. In the interests of full disclosure, I work in financial PR and so am intimately familiar with many of these publications and know for a fact that they are well-read and well-respected within the industry. Part of this has to do with how much the media landscape has shrunk in recent years, which means the best coverage on fairly niche topics is increasingly coming from these sorts of trade publications. I readily admit that I am biased, but I also hope to share some of my experiences and expertise in working with the Wikipedia community here to reach a consensus on what's considered reliable and what's not.
These are, in my view, a few of the most important publications in the alternative lending space that I believe should qualify as reliable sources. I am not implying that these publications should count as reliable sources in 100% of situations, but I don't think it's fair to automatically disqualify them either. Please comment if you agree, disagree or have other questions.
- American Banker - Founded in 1835, American Banker specifically covers the banking industry, which includes traditional lenders (i.e., banks) and alternative lenders. The editorial staff numbers more than 30 strong and they have about 8,000 paid subscribers according to the latest figures, 75% of whom are at the VP level or higher.
- Forbes.com - Although Forbes.com relies on a massive contributor network for much of its content (not unlike The Huffington Post), all contributors are screened for their expertise and all articles are edited to remove promotional or self-serving language. Contributors tend to be experts or leaders in their field and in many cases have been quoted extensively by top-tier media. The fact that these contributors didn't go to journalism school shouldn't detract from the quality of their articles.
- Bank Innovation - Bank Innovation was launched in 2005 to cover innovations in the banking industry. Although they have a small editorial staff, everyone on the team has extensive journalism experience with publications like Politico and American Banker. They get about 600,000 unique monthly visitors so there is clearly a demand for their content.
- ABF Journal - ABF Journal is another trade publication for commercial finance professionals with close to 20,000 monthly subscribers, many of them C-suite. Again, they have a small but well respected editorial team.
- PYMNTS - PYMNTS is an established publication for the payments industry with more than 100,000 unique monthly visitors. The publication has more than 50,000 Twitter followers and regularly interviews leaders in the space.
- deBanked - deBanked has been around since 2010 and is a go-to trade for non-bank finance. The founding editor, Sean Murray, has had his pieces referenced in The New Yorker and The Financial Times, and is a regular at industry conferences.
- The American Banker is OK. However, Forbes contributor blogs are almost never usable for statements of fact (opinions may be OK, with attribution in-text). There's no evidence that the magazine's professional editorial staff actually edits/reviews these posts, and I haven't seen any indication that all or even most contributions are particularly "expert." I'm not familiar enough with the other sources to weigh in on those. Neutralitytalk 02:36, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- I'm curious, what evidence are you looking for? I've worked with several Forbes contributors to help them submit articles, and I know for a fact there is a diligent fact-checking process. And as of February 2018, Forbes announced that it will be paying its contributors and culling the bottom 10% each year to improve the quality of the content. Certainly, I would hope you agree that these contributors generally knows more about the topic they're writing about than journalists who may have been covering the topic for only a few months. (Otherwise they never would have been approved as contributors!) And just like Wikipedia, Forbes (and other publications that accept contributed content) have strict guidelines prohibiting the use of any promotional language and requiring all contributors to disclose any conflict of interest. So where do we draw the line between what's considered legitimate or reliable and what's not? Can a Wall Street Journal op-ed by a Harvard Business School professor ever be used as a source for statements of fact? If the answer is yes, then I think that same standard should also be applied to other publications (within reason). If the answer is no, then that creates a fundamental problem as 'citizen journalism' and contributor networks continue to replace traditional journalism. From the perspective of most readers, IMHO, there is practically no difference between what's published by a journalist on staff versus a freelance writer or contributor. It's all just content. This seems to suggest, to me, the need for a new standard on what's considered a reliable source, either separate from or in addition to the existing Wikipedia standard. I'm open to any and all suggestions about how to progress this dialogue. Thank you! DI-prosek (talk)
- Those are good steps on Forbes part but that is not the situation now. Apart from staff contributors, there is almost zero editorial oversight. Forbes/sites is essentially a collection of self published opinion pieces. Now many many of the Forbes contributors opinions are valid as opinions depending on their experience and qualifications. Some (the minority to be fair) are useless. It's highly dependant on who it is. It's not something that can be hand-waved with a general rule. Reliability is based on the source and the specific content. So we would use an op-Ed by an expert for statements of fact , and we would probably include their opinion. But we wouldn't treat opinion as fact just because it's their opinion. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:43, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- I'm curious, what evidence are you looking for? I've worked with several Forbes contributors to help them submit articles, and I know for a fact there is a diligent fact-checking process. And as of February 2018, Forbes announced that it will be paying its contributors and culling the bottom 10% each year to improve the quality of the content. Certainly, I would hope you agree that these contributors generally knows more about the topic they're writing about than journalists who may have been covering the topic for only a few months. (Otherwise they never would have been approved as contributors!) And just like Wikipedia, Forbes (and other publications that accept contributed content) have strict guidelines prohibiting the use of any promotional language and requiring all contributors to disclose any conflict of interest. So where do we draw the line between what's considered legitimate or reliable and what's not? Can a Wall Street Journal op-ed by a Harvard Business School professor ever be used as a source for statements of fact? If the answer is yes, then I think that same standard should also be applied to other publications (within reason). If the answer is no, then that creates a fundamental problem as 'citizen journalism' and contributor networks continue to replace traditional journalism. From the perspective of most readers, IMHO, there is practically no difference between what's published by a journalist on staff versus a freelance writer or contributor. It's all just content. This seems to suggest, to me, the need for a new standard on what's considered a reliable source, either separate from or in addition to the existing Wikipedia standard. I'm open to any and all suggestions about how to progress this dialogue. Thank you! DI-prosek (talk)
- DI-prosek it is unclear if you are asking about RS with respect to sourcing specific content, or RS with respect to establishing notability. If it is the latter, we recently overhauled the section on sources in the notability guideline for organizations and there is language there specifically about Forbes contributors and about trade rags. There was extensive discussion of the language about trade rags, which you can find in this archive (control+f for "trade")
- If it is the former, you need to bring the specific statement, along with the source, or we cannot answer. Jytdog (talk) 20:16, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Jytdog: I was referring to general guidelines for RS. If I am interpreting this correctly, it sounds like trade publications can be used as RS when it's an in-depth, feature piece, but not when it's essentially a regurgitated press release. So, for example, this piece would be OK as a source since it clearly involved extensive research and was the cover story for the print edition of the magazine. However, this piece would NOT be OK since it's based off a company announcement (although the writer did interview the company executive for additional details, so the piece is more comprehensive than the press release). DI-prosek (talk)
- User:DI-prosek - The context matters. If you are looking for an analysis of whether a source is reliable for a given statement in a given article, you need to give the specific source, the specific statement and the specific WP article where it would go, per the instructions at the top of this page. If you are asking whether a source "counts" toward notability, then please say that; we also will need to see the specific article in the source and the specific subject that you want it to "count" towards. Please do one or the other, otherwise this discussion will not be productive. People often try to ask very general questions here and such discussions go nowhere.
- In general, we do not rely heavily on bloggy or self-published sources and we treat trade rag sources carefully. I edit about biotech a lot; there are some trade rags that are great for that industry, but even within those they publish straight-up churnalism pieces sometimes; the good trade rags have specific pieces that are very useful for providing critical thinking - analysis and meaning-making that we can summarize here. Sometimes they also are good for providing simple facts that are needed to make the article coherent. But a page built entirely from trade rags would be dicey. Jytdog (talk) 14:51, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Jytdog: I suppose it's both. The page in question is for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:CAN_Capital. So I'd like to understand if the first deBanked piece can be used 1) as a reliable source to show notability (since it's a feature piece from one of the most recognizable trade publications in the alternative lending industry...they even have a monthly print publication!), and 2) as a reliable source to discuss the history of CAN Capital, such as how the company was founded and important milestones along the way, including the corporate rebranding to CAN Capital. I understand that this source by itself does not establish notability, and I have a number of other RS already, but trying to better understand if it supports my submission or detracts from my submission. Thank you! DI-prosek (talk)
- Thanks for replying. I had a feeling you were a PR person; thanks for disclosing that here. (I work with a lot of paid editors and PR people here; there is a common approach that just somehow sings.... that is not bad or good, it just is).
- Anyway... the problems there are passing mentions and too much padding. I will say more at the draft talk page. Jytdog (talk) 15:53, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Jytdog: I suppose it's both. The page in question is for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:CAN_Capital. So I'd like to understand if the first deBanked piece can be used 1) as a reliable source to show notability (since it's a feature piece from one of the most recognizable trade publications in the alternative lending industry...they even have a monthly print publication!), and 2) as a reliable source to discuss the history of CAN Capital, such as how the company was founded and important milestones along the way, including the corporate rebranding to CAN Capital. I understand that this source by itself does not establish notability, and I have a number of other RS already, but trying to better understand if it supports my submission or detracts from my submission. Thank you! DI-prosek (talk)
- @Jytdog: I was referring to general guidelines for RS. If I am interpreting this correctly, it sounds like trade publications can be used as RS when it's an in-depth, feature piece, but not when it's essentially a regurgitated press release. So, for example, this piece would be OK as a source since it clearly involved extensive research and was the cover story for the print edition of the magazine. However, this piece would NOT be OK since it's based off a company announcement (although the writer did interview the company executive for additional details, so the piece is more comprehensive than the press release). DI-prosek (talk)
Angelopedia
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have searched the archives and not found any discussion of this website. It is used in en-wp around 700 times. The ownership is hidden by proxy but it was first registered in 2013. There is no information about who owns or runs the website, or even what country it is in. If you look at the signed news pieces they are bylined to "Irina Silva", "Camilla Suarez", or "Angelique Reyes". There is no information about those (supposed?) people on their website.
Some of the content appears to be WP:USERGENERATED. At at their Contact page they invite people to submit information, but there is nothing about their editorial process.
Their Terms of Use say "All information, data, text, software, music, sound, photographs, graphics, video, messages or other materials ("Content"), whether publicly or privately transmitted / posted, is the sole responsibility of the person from where such content is originated (the Originator).... The Company accepts no responsibility for the said Content / Images. However, you understand that all Content / Images posted by you becomes the property of the Company and you agree to grant/assign to the Company and its affiliates, a non-exclusive, royalty free, perpetual, irrevocable and sub-licensable right to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform and display such Content / Images (in whole or part) worldwide and/or to incorporate it in other works in any form, media, or technology now known or later developed throughout the world." (bolding added - they take no responsibility, but they own it).
The site covers beauty pageants, and is used, for example, in Miss Universe 2018, to support content in a table of contestants, excerpted here:
Country/Territory | Delegate | Age | Height | Hometown |
---|---|---|---|---|
Cambodia | Rern Sinat[1] | 22 | 5 ft 7 in (170 cm) | Kampong Cham |
Kyrgyzstan | Begimay Karybekova[2][designations 1] | 20 | 5 ft 7 in (170 cm) | Naryn |
References
- ^ "Rern Nat crowned as Miss Cambodia 2017, will compete in Miss Universe 2018". 2 September 2017.
- ^ Silva, Irina (11 May 2018). "Begimay Karybekova crowned Miss Universe Kyrgyzstan 2018". angelopedia.com. Retrieved 11 May 2018.
- ^ "Begimay Karybekova Crowned Miss Universe Kyrgyzstan 2018". indiatimes.com. Bennett, Coleman. 13 May 2018. Retrieved 26 May 2018.
- ^ "Begimay Karybekova Is Miss Universe Kyrgyzstan 2018". thegreatpageantcommunity.com. 19 May 2018. Retrieved 26 May 2018.
It is also used in pages about contestants for example at Sofía del Prado like this:
- In 2017, del Prado again entered Miss Spain for a second attempt at being crowned. She succeeded and then represented Spain at Miss Universe 2017 in Las Vegas.[1]
References
- ^ "Sofía del Prado from Castilla La Mancha crowned Miss Universe Spain 2017". 25 September 2017.
My attention was called to this RS question by a thread at ANI where it was raised. I asked a question about it at the talk page, here, and the answer led me to bring this here.
Is Angelopedia an RS as it is used above? Jytdog (talk) 19:53, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- Since it's a user generated site, NO. I have seen that site on countless articles about beauty pageants and pageant contestants, and have tried to remove it, nominate articles for deletion for lack of reliable sources confirming notability, etc, etc. But there's a whole army of editors here who add the material back again and !vote keep at AfD, and another army of throw-away accounts who create new articles using Angelopedia and sites that are even less reliable than that as "sources". Over and over again if needed (such as the umpteen incarnations of Miss Grand International, under multiple names). So the only way to get rid of them is by creating an edit filter that automatically removes all links to the site. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 20:14, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
- It's about as "reliable" a source in the Wiki sense as my own pageant site i.e. not at all. I try to remove references on sight but they are so prevalent that it's hard to catch up and I shudder at the Universe articles which are a mess all on their own level. ... CJ [a Kiwi] in Oz 00:25, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- This user generated site is totally NOT a RS but the army of pageant fans and paid promoters sure love it. It's hard to get rid of a pageant winner page because they think sources MUST exist even though no one pays much attention to these girls that fail WP:NMODEL by a mile and a pageant win hardly meets WP:ANYBIO #1 Legacypac (talk) 00:33, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- If this is not RS but it keeps getting spammed in, then we can blacklist it. Nobody here has said this is RS yet. I will wait a good while longer and see if things change, and if they don't, I will nominate it over there. That will take care of it. Jytdog (talk) 06:04, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Reliable source for basic information. According to its profile at Owler.com, Angelopedia is a corporation employing more than a dozen people and having annual revenues of more than $500,000. Whether or not that revenue estimate is precisely accurate, the Owler report does put to rest the notion that this might be someone's personal blog. The website also is the host of live streaming of various national-level pageants, something which (I presume) can not be done by your average personal blogger.
But the reason we are here at this noticeboard is concern that the site's content is user-generated, the evidence for which is nothing more than a section of the site's Terms of Service that addresses such content. But the site allows people to sign up as "Members", whereupon they can create their own member profiles, add comments to articles and engage in discussions with other members. The quoted section of the Terms of Service certainly apply to this "Member" content. But no one here has presented any evidence that the user-generated content extends to anything other than that. In particular, there is no evidence whatsoever that "user-generated content" extends to the by-lined articles that are being used as sources here on Wikipedia.
But is the mere fact that the site hosts some user-generated content enough to cause the entire site to be unreliable? Perhaps so. But I think that would surprise a whole lot of Wikipedians. If the argument presented here is truly persuasive, then we'll need to stop using the New York Times website as a reliable source, as well. The Times website also has a Terms of Service document, section 3 of which addresses user-generated content. And the Times also declares ownership rights over that content (section 3.4) and disavows any responsibility for the accuracy of that content (section 3.5). And how about the Washington Post? Its submission guidelines have similar provisions. Are both of these news organizations to be deemed unreliable simply because they have user-generated content that is subject to the same Terms of Service as used by Angelopedia? Are they both to be labeled "spam" and placed on a blacklist?
Of course not. The user-content provisions of their Terms of Service do not impinge on the organisations' reliability and it is faulty logic to suggest otherwise in the instant case. Angelopedia is a reliable specialist news source that provides an English-language clearinghouse for information that gets reported in non-English and non-Roman-script media. As such, it is useful to Wikipedians who create content in this area. NewYorkActuary (talk) 17:13, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- What has the number of employees got to do with being usergenerated or not? Wikipedia and IMDB, just to name two, each have many more employees than Angelopedia, but are still usergenerated, and not WP:RS... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 22:33, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- Jeez, I guess we gotta bless the Daily Mail, and they have even more employees and revenue.... And I can think of even worse examples (at times, what sells, is far from reliable - no shortage of conspiracy sites with employees and revenue).Icewhiz (talk) 07:26, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you both for your comments. And you are quite right, Thomas -- the number of employees has nothing to do with the question of whether the site's articles are user-generated. I mentioned those facts in response to the original poster's suggestion that the site's by-lined authors might not be real people. Instead, I think it reasonable to assume that a corporation in the business of creating web content has staff writers who do indeed exist. If the original poster has evidence that contradicts this assumption, they certainly haven't presented it here.
But the bulk of my response (starting with the paragraph "But the reason we are here at this noticeboard ...") addresses the silliness of the original poster's main argument. Having Terms of Service that address user-generated content doesn't prove that all of the site's content is user-generated. No one thinks that about the New York Times or the Washington Post, even though their websites also have Terms of Service with similar provisions. Again, if the original poster has evidence that all of Angelopedia's news reports are user-generated, they certainly haven't presented it here.
The reference to the Daily Mail is puzzling. The RfC on that paper concluded that the Mail was fabricating stories and quotes and, hence, was not reliable for Wikipedia sourcing. But no one here has even alleged that Angelopedia is fabricating news reports, let alone provide any evidence of it.
I continue to assert that Angelopedia is a reliable specialist news source that provides an English-language clearinghouse for information that gets reported in non-English and non-Roman-script media. If anyone has evidence that contradicts this, please let us see it. NewYorkActuary (talk) 23:23, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you both for your comments. And you are quite right, Thomas -- the number of employees has nothing to do with the question of whether the site's articles are user-generated. I mentioned those facts in response to the original poster's suggestion that the site's by-lined authors might not be real people. Instead, I think it reasonable to assume that a corporation in the business of creating web content has staff writers who do indeed exist. If the original poster has evidence that contradicts this assumption, they certainly haven't presented it here.
- No, and blacklist of links keep being added. There si no credible evidence that this meets RS, and often all it's being used for is to add referenciness to articles with no real sources. Guy (Help!) 22:37, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- I support blacklisting it. Comparing this fansite with no known editorial oversight to The New York Times is strange. Legacypac (talk) 22:44, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- I just replaced a 100 with cn tags. If six people do the same, they are all gone! Jytdog (talk) 23:10, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
- Non RS & not suitable for establishing notability. Appears to be user-generated / self-published. Articles containing it should probably be evaluated for notability or for being sock created. Socks seem to be especially prevalent in the pageantry articles. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:32, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
- Not RS. Blacklist the site has no indication of editorial control or oversight. Their disclaimer about content pretty much says it all. The continual removal/re-insertion mentioned above supports adding it to the blacklist and running a bot to remove it from existing articles. The issue of beauty pageant winner notability is an issue which needs to be hashed out via RfC at some point. Identifying and removing broadly used inappropriate sources like this via consensus of uninvolved editors will help remove the noise of repeated arguments about source validity at each article. Jbh Talk 00:25, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
picking one of the bylines and searching "Angelique Reyes journalist" gives zero hits (just a bunch of Filipina female social media profiles. Same with "Camilla Suarez journaist" which only leads to Angelpedia and the same kind of social media profiles. These are either journalists no one has heard of that don't even have thier own webpages or pennames. This gives me no confidence this is a journalistic organization. Legacypac (talk) 00:49, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- And still not a single shred of evidence that the site's user-generated content extends to anything other than the material clearly labeled as user-generated content. In the hopes of steering this discussion along the lines of evidence-based arguments, I'll note that Angelopedia has often been used as a source by the Times News Network, the news agency of the Times of India (the country's oldest and largest-circulating English-language newspaper). A listing of the many times it has done so is here. And as pointed out at WP:RS, "use by others" is an indicia of reliability. NewYorkActuary (talk) 01:25, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- Comment Addressing the "user-generated" concern specifically: I signed up for a user account and was unable to find a way to generate, submit or edit content beyond the clearly-delineated user comment section. –dlthewave ☎ 03:42, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- Not a reliable source After looking over this website, it seems to me that it indiscriminately publishes anything submitted about any beauty pageant or contestant that comes its way. Reliable sources have "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". This site publishes mangled sentences such as "But, her dreams of representing Kyrgyzstan at an ainternational pageant came crashing down when the CGhinese officials refused her a visa for the Miss World 2017 competitions in Sanya, China." That article wraps up its coverage with this creepy sentence: "With proper grooming and training, Begimay might succeed in bringing good placement for the country at the Miss Universe pageant." Policy tells us that "common sense and editorial judgment are an indispensable part of the process." My common sense and my editorial judgment leads me to the conclusion that this is a glorified fan site that should be removed from articles and blacklisted. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:58, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
Independent Journal Review
Is the Independent Journal Review considered a reliable source? I wouldn't think so as it has always appeared biased to me. I looked in the archives but was unsuccessful in finding anything regarding the website. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 01:35, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Nobody can answer unless you tell us reliable for what. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:51, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Well, since it's a very one-sided online publication, I'd think it's unreliable for just about anything. Daily Caller isn't considered a reliable source and is constantly being removed from article, and I would think this source would be even more unreliable (on the unreliable scale). I see no real journalistic oversight, kind of like Media Matters. At any rate, it's currently being used as a source at the National Rifle Association in various places, if that helps. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 02:47, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- It meets standards of reliability. Basically that means that what it publishes is true. (The fact that staff were fired for publishing questionable information shows that they endeavor to maintain accuracy.) However, it's criteria for choosing stories is whether it embarrasses the other side or supports right-wing Republicans. That's where weight comes in. Most of what it publishes lacks weight for inclusion in articles. Also, we should use the best possible sources, which this obviously is not. TFD (talk) 01:10, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- As a general rule, I would say it is, as it meets WP:IRS. Also it is biased, sure, but so is CNN, but that doesn't stop it (CNN) from being a reliable source (unfortunate really, cause CNN use to be rather neutral and more fact based reporting than opinion driven). Thus see WP:BIASEDSOURCES.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 02:57, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- WP:QS - looks to be questionable, as a news aggregator & a blogging platform, along with being a "news & opinion website". For news that appears there, better sources are surely available, while opinions are a dime a dozen. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:36, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
A few sources I wish to be reviewed
Hello,
I am attempting to edit Ta'wiz, but an editor claims my sources violate the policies. Here is their latest message: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ta%27wiz&diff=843678649&oldid=843563540. They have not commented on my other sources, but can we please do a rundown of what I am attempting to cite to determine if it is reliable?
- Website of the Permanent Committee for Scholarly Research and Ifta: http://www.alifta.com/Search/ResultDetails.aspx?languagename=en&lang=en&view=result&fatwaNum=&FatwaNumID=&ID=27&searchScope=7&SearchScopeLevels1=&SearchScopeLevels2=&highLight=1&SearchType=exact&SearchMoesar=false&bookID=&LeftVal=0&RightVal=0&simple=&SearchCriteria=allwords&PagePath=&siteSection=1&searchkeyword=097109117108101116#firstKeyWordFound
- Assim al-Hakeem, a scholar's video on his official verified YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxbzcndATsg
- Essentials of Islamic faith by Suhaib Webb (a book)
- Deobandi, Muhammad Shafi (1969). Ma'ariful Qur'an. 3. pp. 312–314.
- Tafsir ibn Kathir (Abridged)
You may view how I cited the sources here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ta%27wiz&diff=prev&oldid=843414909
Much appreciated! – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 22:51, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Do any of your sources actually mention Ta'wiz? Someguy1221 (talk) 08:41, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- Hello. They mention amulets and talismans, and ta'wiz is a specific type of amulet/talisman. :) Thank you. – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 22:46, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
Should The Evening Standard be considered an unreliable source?
Hi all
London's Evening Standard has agreed to a £3 million deal with six commercial companies for “money-can’t-buy” positive news and “favourable” comment coverage. Is it reasonable to now consider Evening Standard an unreliable source? This appears to be confirmation they are willing to be paid to be an unreliable source on certain topics, the issue for Wikipedia appears to be that we may not be known which companies are paying.
What would the process be on deciding this? Should it be an RFC like the Daily Mail?
John Cummings (talk) 08:29, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not sure. "Favorable coverage" does not necessarily equate to "untruthful coverage". It would certainly call into question the significance and notability of anything covered by The Standard that has any connection to one of its "special" clients. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:37, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks @Someguy1221:, knowing with any degree of confidence who the 'special clients' are doesn't appear to be possible beyond trusting that the newspaper will be transparent about it. To be clear it doesn't appear that the newspaper announced the project publicly, it was discovered by journalists from other newspapers. John Cummings (talk) 08:45, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- It would be perverse to block undisclosed paid editing on the wiki and then tolerate UPE as a source. Definitely an RfC. Cabayi (talk) 14:06, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Cabayi: can you explain UPE? Thanks, John Cummings (talk) 14:36, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- Undisclosed paid editing. Guy (Help!) 14:46, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks @JzG:, John Cummings (talk) 14:55, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- Undisclosed paid editing. Guy (Help!) 14:46, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Cabayi: can you explain UPE? Thanks, John Cummings (talk) 14:36, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- It would be perverse to block undisclosed paid editing on the wiki and then tolerate UPE as a source. Definitely an RfC. Cabayi (talk) 14:06, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks @Someguy1221:, knowing with any degree of confidence who the 'special clients' are doesn't appear to be possible beyond trusting that the newspaper will be transparent about it. To be clear it doesn't appear that the newspaper announced the project publicly, it was discovered by journalists from other newspapers. John Cummings (talk) 08:45, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- ES has been on shaky ground for a while. I think it's headed the way of the Mail. Guy (Help!) 14:46, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- It may also be worth mentioning here that UBER was one of the companies involved in this scheme, the Editor of the Evening Standard is paid £650,000 a year for a one day a week role as an advisor to BlackRock, which have a £500,000,000 stake in UBER. The Evening Standard ran an editorial supporting UBER when their license of operation was revoked in London John Cummings (talk)
- The heading of this thread looks non-neutral, it's repeating a recent allegation by opendemocracy.net, which The Evening Standard denies. Of course it's possible that papers are nice to people who fund them, or for sponsored articles have the word "sponsored" in tiny print, so we should have a policy that RSs must be evaluated in context ... but, oh wait, we already do. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:54, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Peter Gulutzan:, I created the title before the ES denied the story, do you have a suggestion of a more neutral title? Thanks, John Cummings (talk) 14:58, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- I believe it's too late now to change to a mere question "Should The Evening Standard be considered an unreliable source?", but I believe that talk guidelines apply here (wp:talk says "All guidelines here also apply to Wikipedia discussion pages ..." though I'm not guaranteeing they mean wp:rsn), and specifically about headings they say "Keep headings neutral". Maybe next time, eh? Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:29, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Peter Gulutzan:, I created the title before the ES denied the story, do you have a suggestion of a more neutral title? Thanks, John Cummings (talk) 14:58, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- The heading of this thread looks non-neutral, it's repeating a recent allegation by opendemocracy.net, which The Evening Standard denies. Of course it's possible that papers are nice to people who fund them, or for sponsored articles have the word "sponsored" in tiny print, so we should have a policy that RSs must be evaluated in context ... but, oh wait, we already do. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:54, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
I think not, paid advocacy should not be RS. Of course the4y deny it, but the above story about UBER does tend to imply that are no longer that reliable.Slatersteven (talk) 15:51, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- Wait, is this confirmed anywhere other than openDemocracy? It seems to depend mostly on that one photo of a screen, with
"Monthly print sections: Eight pages of in-depth material, exclusive research analysed, ideas and solutions around each big issue. Themed to individual projects."
and the "Money-can't-buy" described as"We expect every campaign to generate numerous news stories, comment pieces and..."
It doesn't obviously say unreliable to me, even if it's corroborated. --tronvillain (talk) 23:21, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- I agree with tronvillain. openDemocracyUK says that the Evening Standard denies the story. The new format is supposed to be rolled out on June 5th. Let's wait and see. At the point one would expect that mainstream media will weigh in. TFD (talk) 00:59, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- Why I can think of plenty of times they have largely ignored the wrongs doings of the "news" papers (hell the Daily Myth has won press awards). Frankly (as I have said before) I am now of the opinion that most of them are not very reliable.Slatersteven (talk) 09:04, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
A few more pieces about the story:
- https://www.prweek.com/article/1466327/evening-standard-selling-positive-coverage-pound
- https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/james-cusick/green-party-leader-says-claim-by-george-osborne-s-evening-standard-that-it-never-blu
- https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/31/george-osborne-edit-evening-standard
John Cummings (talk) 09:55, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- Of course, the PR Week piece is just talking about the openDemocracy piece.--tronvillain (talk) 12:26, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- ..and the Guardian "Opinion" piece contains this:
It has been claimed this week that Osborne’s latest wheeze is to offer special clients “money-can’t-buy” positive news and “favourable” comment coverage in return for paid advertising. If true, it would be a partnership fraught with potential mistrust and conflict of interest because readers would not know what was real reporting and what had been paid for; so much so that OpenDemocracy claimed Starbucks had flatly rejected the offer.
Also I wonder how many "Opinion" pieces in the Guardian are included in WikiPedia as though they are journalistic pieces. The times when I think it really matters is when the Standard backs electoral candidates e.g. its support for Boris Johnson in the London mayoral election, 2012#Newspapers. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 10:27, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- ..and the Guardian "Opinion" piece contains this:
News Most modern newspapers not only sell ads, they also sell entire sections of the newspaper to corporations. Usually they have a disclaimer in 4 point type, or the like, but even The New York Times does it. In addition, many magazines are even more blatant - especially fashion magazines often run "features" on designers who "just happened to buy six pages of ads" in the mag. Many such journalists are as pure as Mae West. http://adage.com/article/media/york-times-sponsored-stories/241756/ "The New York Times Co., looking to imitate the business models used by startups such as BuzzFeed, is considering letting advertisers sponsor more stories on its website, two people with knowledge of the situation said." and "Part of the strategy is avoiding controversial sponsors. The Atlantic magazine drew criticism earlier this year for a sponsored online post from the Church of Scientology, which carried the headline, "David Miscavige Leads Scientology to Milestone Year."". http://adage.com/article/media/york-times-shrinks-labeling-natives-ads/294473/ and the Grey Lady is making the nature of such ads harder to spot than ever. Sadly, this is an old newspaper tradition, but one more reason why they are not really "reliable" for much more than packing material. Collect (talk) 11:55, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- Well, yes, but normally they are identified as such with prominent headings saying "advertorial" in clearly readable text not less than 0.1mm high. The more insidious part is churnalism - if the name of a company or product appears in the third paragraph they probably provided the copy. Guy (Help!) 22:41, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- "Prominently identified" in 0.1mm!? Meanwhile, a study, which I have now referred to a few times, shows that on medical and scientific journalism, almost all media rely on press releases and not on actual independent reporting at all. And yes - if a specific company or organization is mentioned in any favorable light, they darn well paid for it directly or indirectly. Remember that most papers have fewer than 20% of the reporters they had even 20 years ago. And "fact checkers" as an occupation are too expensive even for the NYT. Collect (talk) 11:32, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
- They don't necessarily have to have paid for it directly or indirectly. Given staffing levels, news sources potentially use entire sections of press releases if they're written in a compatible style... though I suppose having a PR firm do the work of writing a useable "article" could count as paying for it indirectly. --tronvillain (talk) 12:50, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
- I am not sure the direction headed but I am certainly glad the whole RS (or identifying) is taking place. I think it should happen on that talk page (either RS or IRS) for "the record". I see so many discussions about "reliable sources" when they are clearly subject provided press releases presented by an otherwise reliable source. They are not always identifiable and sometimes found in "features" sections of a newspaper. It seems now that passing mention and any coverage in some media qualifies for even a local restaurant or group in a large city, sourced from a "Food section", to now have an article, as well as a city street because a locally sourced (food reviews) restaurant is on that street. Anyway, I think what qualifies as a reliable source for notability could be more descriptive than what is now provided and just a count of the references not as important especially if there are concerns of COI. Anyone here can visit AFD and see the confusion. Then again, this is likely an unsolvable problem. Otr500 (talk) 23:43, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- They don't necessarily have to have paid for it directly or indirectly. Given staffing levels, news sources potentially use entire sections of press releases if they're written in a compatible style... though I suppose having a PR firm do the work of writing a useable "article" could count as paying for it indirectly. --tronvillain (talk) 12:50, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
- "Prominently identified" in 0.1mm!? Meanwhile, a study, which I have now referred to a few times, shows that on medical and scientific journalism, almost all media rely on press releases and not on actual independent reporting at all. And yes - if a specific company or organization is mentioned in any favorable light, they darn well paid for it directly or indirectly. Remember that most papers have fewer than 20% of the reporters they had even 20 years ago. And "fact checkers" as an occupation are too expensive even for the NYT. Collect (talk) 11:32, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Extended opinion in the context of WP:GS/Crypto
A few questions:
- Do we have a canonical list of generally accepted sites that are considered WP:RS
- Are non-contentious facts based on WP:SELFSOURCE considered reliable?
For the first point, some of the major sites reporting WRT Cryptocurrencies:
- news.bitcoin.com
- www.newsbtc.com
- Bitcoin Magazine
- CoinDesk
For the second question, facts such as "On Date X, site Y started to do blah" is it acceptable to use the own sites announcements under WP:SELFSOURCE of this as they generally follow all of the listed criteria?
Q T C 18:33, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
- There is no canonical list of generally accepted sites that are considered WP:RS, the closet thing we have to that is MediaWiki:Captcha-addurl-whitelist. Non-contentious facts based on WP:SELFSOURCE are considered reliable, unless they contradict reliable sources. news.bitcoin.com is a subdomain of bitcoin.com which is not an "official" domain of bitcoin, and can't be used as a WP:SELFSOURCE for bitcoin. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:20, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
Political Graveyard is a reliable source, yes or no?
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Someone is removing Political Graveyard as a source, saying it is unreliable. Is there a ruling here that I have missed? I also have people tag teaming me when I restore them. --RAN (talk) 13:28, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- There have been four past discussions regarding this. You participated in at least one of them, in which your view appeared to be in the minority. The last discussion was very brief but deemed it unreliable, and the other two raised significant concerns along the usual WP:SPS lines. As for tag-teaming, I think you need to retract that accusation now: being in the minority does not mean you are being tag-teamed by those who disagree with you. - Sitush (talk) 13:35, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- I started an RFC in a place where it will be easy to find in the future at Talk:The_Political_Graveyard. --RAN (talk) 14:25, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- Not reliable- I would say this site is user generated content with no clear editorial oversight procedures. That makes it generally unreliable except possibly for the most uncontroversial claims. We certainly should not be building articles on this sandy foundation. I'm also unimpressed with RAN's feigning ignorance of previous discussions about this source and wikilawyering about the outcome of those discussions. Reyk YO! 14:19, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- And I have restored it, I am asking the question, I believe I have the right to choose the forum I think is proper. As you pointed out this has been discussed here four times with no formal ruling. RFCs have formal closures and formal binding rulings. --RAN (talk) 14:35, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- This is a noticeboard, I am posting the notice that is a formal RFC on the topic. --RAN (talk) 14:38, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- Not reliable - It is based on user submissions and research done by the site manager, with submissions curated by the site manager. The curation is not always accurate and is not meant to be equivalent in rigor to academic or journalistic publications. The site discusses its accuracy here - the philosophy reminds me of WP:EVENTUAL. Smmurphy(Talk) 14:55, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- Can you give some examples of inaccuracies and errors? --RAN (talk) 15:07, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- No problem. The very first person in the index, H. H. Aaker. The entry doesn't know when and where he died and where he was buried (see here for this info), that in ND he ran for Congress[14], Governor[15] (multiple times in fact), Secretary of State of ND[16], and other positions, while in MN he also ran for Lieutenant Governor[17], Congress[18], was mayor of Moorhead[19], and had a first name of Hans. Political graveyard is a fine place for starting on an article, but I wouldn't cite it at all. The next entry, Lars K. Aaker, is equally incomplete even when compared to his WP page. As for outright errors, I'd have to look harder, but a number of dates are inexact which could easily be corrected. Others are based on gravestones (a primary source) and could be corrected if a secondary source were used. Smmurphy(Talk) 17:11, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- You are confusing omissions with errors. That is like arguing that an autobiography is not reliable because it does not contain information on that person's death. --RAN (talk) 20:55, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- Can you give some examples of inaccuracies and errors? --RAN (talk) 15:07, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- An interesting source - but SPS Neat in some respects, but apparently dependent in the end on a single person. To the extent it gives locations of graves, who cares? To any other purpose - not a "reliable source" but possibly a means to find a reliable source. This is true of any "source of grave location" for the entire universe etc. if any question arises. Collect (talk) 15:00, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- Not reliable per Reyk above and the consensus of past discussions. SPS/no clear editorial oversight etc. - Sitush (talk) 15:20, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- Not reliable. Because of how it is set up, and per the examples I already gave at RANs talk page where this source (which he had used) disagreed with the actual dates he found in other sites (newspapers). Fram (talk) 15:25, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- Not reliable User-generated/self-published content website, so not reliable for what it is being used for. Although, why does it even have its own article on itself? Based on a couple of paragraphs in a local news item? Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:52, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- Not reliable. User-generated sites like this, Find-a-grave and umpteen others are never reliable sources. IMO it's about time the Wikipedia community cuts all connections with Richard Arthur Norton through a site ban. He's been told for years that he can't use user generated content as sources, but still continues doing it, and apparently also circumvents the system by adding unsourced material on Wikidata and then using it as sources here, showing that he has no intention of ever abiding by the rules here. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 16:18, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
- Not reliable- its user-generated. RAN already knows that at least 9 out of 10 people here disagree with him, but rather than just accept that, he wants to wikilawyer and drag it out. Whether or not he is violating his editing restrictions again, really should be looked into.--Rusf10 (talk) 16:56, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
Newstex
Is Newstex a reliable source? It appears to be a blog aggregator, and it comes up on ProQuest. Please ping me when you reply. Thank you.Zigzig20s (talk) 16:18, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Peer-reviewed material used to source pseudoscience on a list
Over at the notorious list of cryptids (specifically Talk:List_of_cryptids#WP:SYNTH_and_WP:RS_violations_reintroduced), we've got an editor (Fyunck(click) (talk · contribs)) edit-warring to insert peer reviewed items for entries on the list and to introduce fringe sources, such as material by Loren Coleman. Like most scientific publications, these sources ignore pseudoscience altogether (and therefore make no mention of either cryptozoology and don't use the term cryptid). As this list is a hotbed of off-site cryptozoology forum shopping and a hub for promoting all sorts of quackery (it's the intersection of Young Earth creationism and cryptozoology, after all), it could generally use more eyes. :bloodofox: (talk) 18:29, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Question reg. a Possibly Reliable Source
Recently a source link from an article about a place Gondoh was removed by a user called Sitush citing it unreliable which actually contains data about the census survey done by Govt. of India. The actual link about the source is: www
- Per my closure of this thread, over here. ~ Winged BladesGodric 07:46, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- Source the data to the official site or to the district census handbooks.Best, ~ Winged BladesGodric 07:47, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks Winged Blades for the satisfying answer. I got it, it helped. Will keep in mind next time :) . ~ The UltimateTalk 07:55, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
Cointelegraph source
The source cointelegraph.com is overused in the article Dash (cryptocurrency). This source offers a press release distribution for a fee 1BTC, in USD about $8000. An upgraded distribution can be bought here [20] for 2BTC, or about $16,000USD. That is a large amount of money. Is this really a press release distribution or is this paid submission? Thus I propose that this source be purged from cryptocurrency articles. Note for some reason in this edit [21] Spintendo (talk · contribs) seems to remove two RS to replace those with cointelegraph.com sources. All looks dubious to me. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 15:27, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- As it is (in effect) a vanity publisher no it should not be RS.Slatersteven (talk) 15:49, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- It seems that not all articles are paid press releases. Any articles that are paid press releases are tagged with '#Press release' at the bottom of the article. Technoir2 (talk) 15:53, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- Care to proved the link to the page that says this?Slatersteven (talk) 15:56, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- It isn't stated explicitly, however all press releases are listed on the https://cointelegraph.com/press-releases page, and each of those articles shows '#Press release' at the bottom. I've been careful not to use any of those paid press releases in the Dash (cryptocurrency) article. Cointelegraph seems to be a mixture of paid press releases and edited articles, their 'about' page lists an editorial team https://cointelegraph.com/about Technoir2 (talk) 16:02, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- I cannot help bit note that not only is this not called an editorial team, but there is no mention of any editorial policy. Hell they even refer to themselves as an information market. I see nothing on that page that contradicts the idea they will just publish any old tosh as long as (in some way) it makes them money.Slatersteven (talk) 16:08, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- Is a public editorial policy required for RS? I can't find editorial policies even for several mainstream newspapers that would definitely qualify as RS. Many media outlets publish paid content alongside their regular content, or make money from advertising, it shouldn't invalidate the unpaid content imo. I accept that Cointelegraph is not a top tier source, however I feel it is sufficiently reliable for the types of edit I am requesting, which are mostly uncontroversial technical statements Technoir2 (talk) 16:31, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- [22][23][24][25][26], no they are not always called editorial polices but most (so far all) reputable media have polices on quality and standards.Slatersteven (talk) 17:16, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- That's fine, but some news organisations do not publish their editorial policies. Cointelegraph has three editors working for it and as far as I can tell has a good reputation - it is referenced twice in a peer reviewed journal article from Yale (http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1417&context=yjreg). Whether a specific article is reliable for a fact or statement should be examined on a case-by-case basis - I assert that cointelegraph is sufficiently reliable for the statements I am attributing to it. Technoir2 (talk) 17:35, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- [22][23][24][25][26], no they are not always called editorial polices but most (so far all) reputable media have polices on quality and standards.Slatersteven (talk) 17:16, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- Is a public editorial policy required for RS? I can't find editorial policies even for several mainstream newspapers that would definitely qualify as RS. Many media outlets publish paid content alongside their regular content, or make money from advertising, it shouldn't invalidate the unpaid content imo. I accept that Cointelegraph is not a top tier source, however I feel it is sufficiently reliable for the types of edit I am requesting, which are mostly uncontroversial technical statements Technoir2 (talk) 16:31, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- I cannot help bit note that not only is this not called an editorial team, but there is no mention of any editorial policy. Hell they even refer to themselves as an information market. I see nothing on that page that contradicts the idea they will just publish any old tosh as long as (in some way) it makes them money.Slatersteven (talk) 16:08, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- It isn't stated explicitly, however all press releases are listed on the https://cointelegraph.com/press-releases page, and each of those articles shows '#Press release' at the bottom. I've been careful not to use any of those paid press releases in the Dash (cryptocurrency) article. Cointelegraph seems to be a mixture of paid press releases and edited articles, their 'about' page lists an editorial team https://cointelegraph.com/about Technoir2 (talk) 16:02, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- Care to proved the link to the page that says this?Slatersteven (talk) 15:56, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- It seems that not all articles are paid press releases. Any articles that are paid press releases are tagged with '#Press release' at the bottom of the article. Technoir2 (talk) 15:53, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
Bernard Lewis
Bernard Lewis contains the following sentence
Lewis has been described as the "dean of Middle East scholars"
, sourced to the following -
Falk, Avner. Islamic Terror: Conscious and Unconscious Motives. ABC-CLIO. p. 77.
Which reads
Bernard Lewis, "the dean of Middle East scholars", studied the "roots of Muslim rage..."
ABC-CLIO is an academic publisher - "a publishing company for academic reference works and periodicals primarily on topics such as history and social sciences", and Avner Falk is an academic , a clinical psychologist who "has written psychoanalytic studies of Jewish and Israeli leaders, Jewish history, the Arab–Israeli conflict, antisemitism and Islamic terrorism."
I'd like to hear opinions on the reliability of the source for the statement (form involved editors, of course). Firkin Flying Fox (talk) 21:32, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- The question was weight, does the view of this clinical psychologist on a Middle Eastern historian merit quoting in the lead of an encyclopedia article. nableezy - 21:39, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- Outright lie. The grounds for twice removing this material by the above editor was "unreliable source" see:
- "unreliable source for such a sweeping claim"
- "still an unreliable source for the claim" - Firkin Flying Fox (talk) 21:46, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- I was relying on your edit summary here where you claimed to be undoing my edit. I noticed after that your edit summary was dishonest, that it was not an undo, but that you changed the source. My objection to that source remains. The first edit of mine is not from the same source. The first edit was sourced to a YouTube video with the dsecription calling Lewis that. Is it your position that this is a reliable source? Please do not be so dishonest about the edits, thank you. nableezy - 22:17, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- Ok, this obviously cannot be used. It would be like if I said XX was the "dean of rocket science"....since I am not a rocket scientist, it has virtually zero value. That some outside the group Middle East scholars thinks/thought Lewis was "the dean of Middle East scholars" doesnt make him so. Huldra (talk) 22:51, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- Outright lie. The grounds for twice removing this material by the above editor was "unreliable source" see:
- A clinical psychologist is not reliable for such a judgement. I suspect Falk is just quoting (without citation) an article of conservative editor, music critic and one-time speech writer for GW Bush Jay Nordlinger. It isn't unclear that the content it passes WEIGHT anyway. These biggest, fastest, best this or best that types of labels are useless for understanding. Zerotalk 23:05, 6 June 2018 (UTC)