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==Clean Copy== |
==Clean Copy== |
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{{hat|Clean Copy is topic banned from Rudolf Steiner and antroposophy, broadly construed--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 19:41, 3 February 2022 (UTC)}} |
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<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 [[Word count#Software|words]] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> |
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 [[Word count#Software|words]] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> |
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* You would think after [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Waldorf education]] Clean Copy would be much more careful in this topic area. I support a topic ban here. --[[User:Guerillero|<span style="color: #0b0080">Guerillero</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Guerillero|<span style="color: green;">Parlez Moi</span>]]</sup> 12:34, 1 February 2022 (UTC) |
* You would think after [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Waldorf education]] Clean Copy would be much more careful in this topic area. I support a topic ban here. --[[User:Guerillero|<span style="color: #0b0080">Guerillero</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Guerillero|<span style="color: green;">Parlez Moi</span>]]</sup> 12:34, 1 February 2022 (UTC) |
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*I am in broad agreement with Bishonen's analysis. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle|talk]]) 09:21, 2 February 2022 (UTC) |
*I am in broad agreement with Bishonen's analysis. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle|talk]]) 09:21, 2 February 2022 (UTC) |
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{{hab}} |
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==Just another Wikipedian editor== |
==Just another Wikipedian editor== |
Revision as of 19:41, 3 February 2022
Grandmaster
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Grandmaster
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Armatura (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:04, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Grandmaster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 19:49, 16 January 2022 pushes outrageous website EPRESS.AM to prove his point that "even Armenian media makes analogies with nuclear weapons" for Agdam. The fact the "article" does not even have an author, that it is copy paste of unknown person's delusionary Facebook post, that it contains passages like "nomadic barbarian-vampires" and "they deserve this, I have f****d the city and the Turks' mother" about Azerbaijanis and that the whole website is a trash can with no editorial oversight or domain registration details, full of extreme profanity like "caught when jerking" or "I'd f***ed your mothers" does not worry Grandmaster. He does not want to hear, and keeps beating the dead horse again and again, and once again in ANI, by saying he just “quoted epress.am just to show that the analogy with devastation by nuclear weapons is used by Armenian media too.” , then accusing me for “making so much drama over one news link posted at a talk page, and bringing it to this board.” Such an "article" with racial remarks towards Azeris/Turks would not be normally tolerated another time, yet since it supports his “even Armenian media uses Hiroshima” POV, he isn’t bothered.
- 17:02, 16 January 2022 Grandmaster turns a blind eye on pro-Azeri propaganda; he won't see why Azerbaijani president's aid Hikmet Hajijev's "this is Hiroshima" phrase applied to literally all cities damaged in 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war, in front of BBC camera, constitutes propaganda; on the contrary, he justifies it by saying it is because every settlement in 7 districts that were under Armenian occupation "looks like Hiroshima... What is propaganda here?"... and "BBC report shows the town of Jabrayil that looks like another, smaller Hiroshima".
- 13 January 2022Grandmaster uses double standards, putting undue weight on "Armenianness" of the source, giving it undue weight, by downplaying Armenian village head's quote about Azeri president origin despite it was cited by neutral RS", or overplaying it like in Epress.am example above, depending on what better suits POV-pushing.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- En Wiki block log previous 10 blocks in English Wikipedia, mostly in AA topic
- Ru Wiki block log previous 10 blocks in Russian Wikipedia, again mostly in AA topic
- 29 May 2010 RU AE case - 6-month ban on Russian Wikipedia for leading the meatpuppetry Anti-Armenian group of a dozen Azerbaijani editors, some of which still support Grandmaster in discussions on English Wikipedia.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Grandmaster has veteran experience of POV-pushing with extensive history of blocks in Armenia-Azerbaijan topic in two Wikipedias. The provided diffs are just a few recent examples to show he has not changed but learned how to avoid bans by WP:CPUSH-ing as shown in diffs above. I think he is there not as much as to build encyclopedia, but to advance official Azerbaijan' positions on Wikipedia, in a nationalist mood, prohibited by WP:ADVOCACY. He is apparently unable contribute neutrally in topics he has ethnic conflict of interest with, hence I believe a topic ban from AA area, broadly construed (including Turkey and Turkic world), for at least 1 year, is required to help to sober him up, while allowing him to edit in topics he does not have conflict of interest with. I was advised by admins Rosguill and Robert McClenon to take the case from ANI to AE, and so I did.
UPDATE 25.01.2022 Grandmaster worryingly changed his replies here
- 00:49, 24 January 2022
- 01:18, 24 January 2022
- 01:31, 24 January 2022
- 15:15, 24 January 2022
- 16:43, 24 January 2022
- 10:17, 25 January 2022
- 18:16, 25 January 2022
When this violation of talk page guidelines was noted by an opponent, he resented till another user notes the violation
Worryingly, Grandmaster now glorifies Epressa.am as a reliable example of Armenian media, to prove a point, despite what he refers to is not even an article by a journalist but a text of an unknown person' Facebook rave with an attention seeking FRINGE title “Did we (Armenians) drop hydrogen bomb on Agdam and Zangilan?”. Not sure about 2014 award, but that website is apparently hacked and vandalised, everyone can see the sheer random nonsense posted there: 1 2. --Armatura (talk) 20:38, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
UPDATE 29.01.22 Grandmaster, when the source is so obviously poor, it does not merit a discussion at WP:RS/P. WP:QUESTIONABLE sources are unsuitable for citing contentious claims (in article or talk page - does not matter) and minimal WP:COMPETENCE is required to see the obvious. The fact that you do not / choose not to see it after being on Wikipedia over a decade, your continued defence of that source even here, against all the evidence, is a sign of incompetence or inability to remain neutral in editing/discussing I am afraid. And what you call a "witch hunt" was a transfer of ANI discussion to AE, as advised by admins, that's all. --Armatura (talk) 19:34, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
UPDATE 02.02.2022 Many thanks for time and effort spent on evaluating this case, Rosguill and Ealdgyth. Are you happy to close it per your concensus? Best wishes --Armatura (talk) 17:13, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Notified on talk page by standart alert.
Discussion concerning Grandmaster
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Grandmaster
This is already 4th report filed on me by Armatura. Such persistence in filing frivolous reports one after another indicates that this user is engaged in WP:Witchhunt. Previously Armatura joined now banned user Steverci to accuse me of various things, but that report was dismissed as retaliatory. [1] Then he filed a 3RR report on me [2], which was dismissed without action, and he did it when I reported a banned IP user, so it appears to be another retaliatory report. After that he filed a report on WP:ANI, asking to ban me: [3] So this is the report # 4, which for the most part repeats the report at WP:ANI.
Regarding Agdam, one can see that Armatura started the latest discussion by bringing up a BBC report that has no relevance to the city of Agdam, to support his claim that the term "Hiroshima of Caucasus" is used as propaganda by Azerbaijan (BBC says nothing like that, btw). But as was demonstrated by myself and other users, the term Hiroshima of Caucasus is used not just by Azerbaijan, but it was coined by British journalist and political analyst Thomas de Waal, and is used by mainstream international media such as Euronews, France24, AP, The independent, and even Armenian reporter for IWPR. I quoted epress.am just to show that the analogy with devastation by nuclear weapons is used by Armenian media too. I did not propose to include it into the article. In fact, Armatura's claiming that the term Hiroshima of Caucasus is propaganda after it was demonstrated that it originated outside of Azerbaijan and is used by media all over the world is tendentious editing in itself.
Then he accuses me of removing claims of an village head about late president of Azerbaijan allegedly concealing his place of birth for political reasons, but how qualified is a villager to make judgements about the motives of the Soviet leadership? Even if it is reported by a reliable source, it does not make the claims of a man in the street reliable or notable. But I only removed that line once, and when Armatura restored it, I left it at that. There was no edit war, or anything of the kind. I just tried to attract attention to questionability of that claim, per WP:BRD.
Regarding my blocks in en:wiki, as you can see, they are from 15 years ago, and incident at Russian wiki is from 12 years ago, and has nothing to do with en:wiki.
Per WP:Boomerang, I think the admins need to look at Armatura's own activity. Armatura repeatedly violated WP:AGF and WP:Civil, making personal attacks and incivil comments every time I try to have a polite discussion with him. For example, in his report at WP:ANI, he accuses me of having a "narrow vision in which Armenians are "the bad guys"", which clearly is a bad faith assumption. In this report here, he accuses me of "advancing official Azerbaijan' positions on Wikipedia, in a nationalist mood", with no credible evidence whatsoever, which is again not in line with WP:AGF. How civil is it to write to another editor: do not test the patience of other editors with nonsense, it may be viewed as trolling? Here he told me: Because you simply refuse to understand when I explain anything, in a nihilistic fashion Bad faith assumption like this, when he accused me of not reacting to another user's erroneous closure of RFC, even though Armatura was explained by a Wikipedia admin that he cannot hold against someone not doing something: [4] Another bad faith assumption at the same page: [5] Here he demands from me "repentance", which he would "perhaps accept"? [6] As was noted by an uninvolved user at WP:ANI, Armatura WP:BLUDGEONs the discussion by arguing with my every vote and every comment, [7]. You may wish to check Talk:2020 Nagorno-Karabakh ceasefire agreement and Talk:Agdam#RfC_for_"Hiroshima_of_Caucasus" to get the full picture of my interactions with this user.
Previously, Armatura was placed on interaction ban with another user: [8].
In sum, Armatura has difficulties with keeping it cool when engaging in discussions with other editors, which is why admins may wish to see if editing such a contentious topic as Armenia-Azerbaijan relations is something that he should be allowed to do. His behavior creates nervous and unhealthy atmosphere.
Rosguill, please note that I only cited epress.am once, at the talk page of Agdam. I made no further reference to that source. Every other mention was in response to Armatura, who brought it up again at his talk page and ANI. Also, the article was not nationalist, quite the contrary, it was critical of those people who made racist comments about Azerbaijani people and justified destruction of Azerbaijani cities. Armatura takes words out of context, but context is important. The author does not endorse racist attitudes, but protests them. Also, Wikipedia has no censorship, and profanity is not forbidden.
Regarding epress.am, it is certainly not a nationalist publication. Some information about them could be found here [9] [10] And here is an interview with its chief editor, who says that his publication is against nationalism, militarism, homophobia and violence. [11] It won Free Media Awards in 2014. [12] If you check English Wikipedia, it is used a lot in Armenia related articles. Grandmaster 21:53, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
Once again, epress was not proposed to be used as a reference in the article. It was only linked once at the talk page in the discussion, as an example of a term usage, and that news-site is used as a reference in dozens of articles about Armenia in Wikipedia. If it is not acceptable, the issue should be taken to WP:RSN, to designate it as deprecated, and stop its usage in Wikipedia. I don't think that a simple mention at talk is such a big issue as to demand someone to be banned or sanctioned. I changed some of my comments here to save space, as I was advised I need to keep it short. Grandmaster 21:53, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
- 1st diff, which should be this, Billion was quoted by France24, a major French news outlet. [13] I used this quote on OSCE Minsk Group, not Armenian genocide. If France24 considers him a leading French expert on OSCE Minsk Group, I don't see why we cannot quote him.
- 2nd diff, I trimmed a large unnecessary quote, most of which was about Lezgins, and I kept only the part that was about Talysh, because the article is about Talysh, not Lezgins. The only info about Talysh there was that their number could be understated, and that remained.
- 3rd diff, I only provided official Azerbaijani position on that issue. Whether that position is right or wrong, it needs to be presented too, per WP:Balance. We cannot write an article without reflecting the official position of one of the warring sides, with proper attribution, which I made.
Additional comments.
- 1st diff, Billion does not share Azerbaijani view, other international experts are also skeptical about future of the Minsk Group.
- 2nd diff, I don't think Cornell is generally a good source here, as he is referring to private conversations with some people. But what he wrote about Talysh is there.
- 3rd diff, EU parliament was already mentioned. Even if official Azerbaijani position is disputed, it still needs to be reflected, with attribution, according to the rules.
Grandmaster 17:06, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
ZaniGiovanni, you forgot to mention who brought up that source time after time at various places. Certainly not me. Grandmaster 14:58, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
ZaniGiovanni, it was actually me who suggested to stop arguing about that source right there, at talk of Agdam: [14] But Armatura kept taking it to various boards, and brought it up even at his own talk page, when I tried to discuss with him a technical issue. Grandmaster 16:49, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
Admins may wish to look into ZaniGiovanni's own reverting activity today. He removed Didier Billion: [15], claiming that he was a genocide denier, even though the article has nothing to do with genocide, and Billion was interviewed by France24, major French news outlet. Normally, if you question general reliability of a source, WP:RSN is where you discuss it, and reach consensus with the community. Then he removed RFE/RL, which is a reliable source, claiming that he sees from photos that the mosques' roof is there: [16], when it clearly is not. If you compare photos #4 and #5 in RFE article, it is obvious that the metal hip roof is gone, plus he engages in WP:OR. Clearly POV edits. Grandmaster 16:14, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
ZaniGiovanni, it is clear from this picture taken before occupation that the triangular shaped metal roof is gone. Plus, you cannot engage in WP:OR and decide, what was and what was not removed. RFE/RL is a reliable source, and cannot be removed just because you disagree with it. Grandmaster 16:36, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
Rosguill, topic banning an editor for just posting a link to a talk page discussion is too harsh. And I don't think I held up author's "Armenian ethnicity as somehow equivalent to speaking for Armenians or Armenian sources". I just responded to the claim that the source was "ultra-nationalist", and tried to demonstrate that it was not. I edited Wikipedia for many years, and made tens of thousands of useful contributions, created many new articles. I don't think it is a proportional punishment for whatever I did wrong. Grandmaster 19:52, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
Rosguill, I think you do not understand why that argument was made. Armatura argued that the term "Hiroshima of Caucasus" was used only by Azerbaijani propaganda. But it was demonstrated by many users that it is used by mainstream Western media as well (please see comments at RFC there). I also pointed out that it was used by an Armenian reporter from IWPR, who cannot be engaged in pro-Azerbaijani propaganda. That is the only reason why the nationality of the reporters was mentioned, to demonstrate that they could not be a part of Azerbaijan's propaganda. I also pointed out nationalities of other sources, to show that the term originated and was used beyond Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 20:08, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
Rosguill, it is not about ethnic identity, but rather the fact that the source originates outside of Azerbaijan. I also mentioned nationality of British journalist Thomas de Waal, for example. But I did it just to show that the term used by sources outside of Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 20:17, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
Rosguill, regarding epress, it was never used as a reference in the article, not it was proposed to be used. I only linked it once at the talk page discussion. I understand it could be a problem when unreliable pieces are used as references, but it was never my intention. I take the point that it is not a good quality source, and I will never make any mention of such sources anywhere. But a person can a make a mistake occasionally, I think. We are all human, after all. I don't think it is a adequate punishment to ban a log time editor with thousands of contributions for just one link posted at talk page. Grandmaster 20:28, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
ZaniGiovanni, once again, I did not defend epress, I only demonstrated here that it is not a nationalist source, as it was claimed. Grandmaster 20:39, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Dennis Brown
(clerking only, no comments on the merits)
Grandmaster, you are over the word limit by over 100 words. You need to trim it down a bit if you expect to reply again. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 01:13, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
- Ok, will do. Grandmaster 01:15, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
- Is it ok now, or more trimming needed? Grandmaster 01:19, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
- If you look above, the limit is supposed to be 500 words total, which is often overlooked if you don't push it too far, but just be aware, that's all. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:24, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
- Is it ok now, or more trimming needed? Grandmaster 01:19, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
Statement by ZaniGiovanni
Since the ANI discussion, I was thinking wheter the suggested AE case would be opened or not, as there are other diffs of Grandmaster's POV pushing that weren't discussed. I believe as an involved party with the previous case, I should add my input. Some recent edits by Grandmaster that I believe weren't posted in either of noticeboards:
- diff 1 - Grandmaster adds Didier Billion as a source which supports Azerbaijani point-of-view. Billion is an Armenian genocide denier, (link). Billion trivializes genocide as "events" [17]. He's essentially a Turkish lobbiest, [18]. This isn’t the first time Grandmaster added an Armenian genocide denier as a source, see diff of him adding Christopher Gunn, another denialist.
- diff 2 - Huge WP:ALLEGED violation. Grandmaster removed any mention of the government falsifying records and just attributed it to belief.
- diff 3 - Grandmaster added WP:UNDUE Azerbaijani POV that a group of Armenian prisoners of war from 2020 Karabakh War were apparently a “saboteur group”. Even the Eurasianet source he cited casts a lot of doubt on them being labeled as saboteurs. It reveals one of the “saboteurs” is actually a civilian. And it also quotes an Armenian human rights activist saying they were taken as hostages. Yet another example of Grandmaster only citing what benefits his agenda and giving it a huge undue weight. Notable to add that the European Parliament source in the article states:
- “whereas credible reports have been made that Armenian service personnel and civilians have also been taken prisoner since the cessation of hostilities on 10 November 2020; whereas the Azerbaijani authorities claim that these hostages and prisoners are terrorists and do not deserve POW status under the Geneva Convention;”
- “whereas Azerbaijani forces detained these civilians even though there was no evidence that they posed any security threat that could justify their detention under international humanitarian law;”
I'm not an admin, I don't know what appropriate measures are against users in such cases. As someone involved in the ANI discussion, I wanted to share the problematic edits of Grandmaster I've noticed recently. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 02:24, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
1st diff, which should be this, Billion was quoted by France24, a major French news outlet. [17] I used this quote on OSCE Minsk Group, not Armenian genocide. If France24 considers him a leading French expert on OSCE Minsk Group, I don't see why we cannot quote him.
- As I said, this isn't the first time you used "not Armenian genocide" defense when called out on your sources. You said the same thing about Christopher Gunn, another denialist, "This article is not about genocide". I struggle to understand how you don't get the point here, so I'll make an analogy: Do you think if someone is a holocaust denier, calls holocaust "events", says "JEWISH DIASPORA SHOULD LEAVE LIVING IN THE PAST” (he published an article about Armenian diaspora [19]), they can be considered credible on issues related to Jewish people?
- I don't think so, but maybe you'll defend him again, as it seems like when your view is challenged, you go extra defensive missing the point entirely. And btw, unsurprisingly, Didier Billion takes the Turkish/Azerbaijani point of view regarding Minsk Group, and has articles published about himself and his views in pro-Turkish government paper Daily Sabah [20], denies the Armenian genocide, etc. Do you honestly not see the conflict of interest here?
2nd diff, I trimmed a large unnecessary quote, most of which was about Lezgins, and I kept only the part that was about Talysh, because the article is about Talysh, not Lezgins. The only info about Talysh there was that their number could be understated, and that remained.
- 2 sentences hardly counts as a "large unnecessary quote", this was a complete exaggeration by you used to embellish your point. The Lezgins part is there because in the next sentence, author directly makes the comparison to Talyshs, and how Azerbaijani government denies figures for both ethnic groups, "These figures are denied by the Azerbaijani government but in private many Azeris acknowledge the fact that Lezgins – for that matter Talysh or the Tat population of Azerbaijan is far higher than the official figure." (Cornell, Svante E. Small Nations and Great Powers. Routledge (UK), 2001. p.269). You also didn't explain why you attributed Cornell's words to “belief”.
3rd diff, I only provided official Azerbaijani position on that issue. Whether that position is right or wrong, it needs to presented too, per WP:Balance. We cannot write an article without reflecting the official position of one of the warring sides, with proper attribution, which I made.
- I re-checked the source you cited just to be clear, and have a couple of things to say. Firstly, that Eurasianet article concluded that the POWs even included a civilian among them, so the Azeri position of "sabotage group" is UNDUE and clear propaganda. And interestingly, somehow, you failed to include this information in your edit at all. On top of that, as I already said, the European Parliament source disproves the Azeri version, solidifying that it's UNDUE. Again, you cited only what benefited your agenda ignoring rest of the source, and gave it huge UNDUE weight. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 16:32, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
- On one hand, you still defend Billion and somehow don't see his conflict of interest after all the material I provided. On the other hand, you say "I don't think Cornell is generally a good source here", when in reality, Svante Cornell, being a Swedish scholar, specializing on politics and security issues in Eurasia, South Caucasus, Turkey, and Central Asia, being published by Routledge, one of the most respectable academic publications, is more than a good source here.
- Regarding the POWs, you missed my point. I think I've explained myself very clearly already, and I know the EU Parliament source was included in the article, I said it myself in the opening statement. What any of this has to do with you citing disproven propaganda and giving it UNDUE weight? I think I've said it all, I'll leave it for admins to judge my points, as this is getting increasingly repetitive and long. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 17:40, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
It was only linked once at the talk page in the discussion, as an example of a term usage
- You defended that fringe article multiple times both in talk and ANI. No matter how you want to spin it, there is a limit to your WP:CRUSH and you breached it. You tried to portray that article to somehow be a legitimate part of Armenian news media and "term's usage in Armenia", which it isn't. I already addressed this in ANI, but for the last time, I'll address here.
- If a website like EPRESS publishes blog style nonsense like these (the following don't even have an author and literally don't make sense) blog1, blog2, it isn't reliable. If EPRESS publishes FRINGE nonsense of self-proclaimed "Ruben Vardazaryan из Фейсбука" (Ruben Vardazaryan from facebook) with the title "Did our people use a hydrogen bomb in Aghdam and Zangelan?", which isn't supported by any academic consensus, it isn't reliable and no way near what you claimed it is (i.e, part of Armenian media and "Hiroshima" term usage in "Armenian media"). Armenpress is a legitimate Armenian media outlet, not some random blog style nobody / facebook self-published article.
I don't think that a simple mention at talk is such a big issue as to demand someone to be banned or sanctioned.
- You didn't just mention it, you breached WP:CRUSH, defended it multiple times in talk, and continued to defend it even in ANI and here. And the EPRESS WP:CRUSH wasn't your only problematic conduct recently, I provided other diffs of your POV push. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 12:24, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
- When you say stuff like this, And btw, even Armenian media makes analogies with nuclear weapons. This is an article by an Armenian journalist, titled "Did our people use a hydrogen bomb in Aghdam and Zangelan?", you should expect a reply. When you keep defending that nonsense even after the reply, you should expect your opposition to dispute that. When you keep defending it in ANI too and here, you should also expect the same. How is this so hard to understand? You keep saying "I didn't brought it up" as if you weren't the one defending it over and over when people asked you to stop. I can link all the other diffs but it would be long and I've already shown it in ANI. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 16:17, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
- First of all, that's a diff after Armatura asked you to stop, and he said if you continue presenting that as a "proof" of anything, he would report you. And secondly, you still continued to defend that "publication" even in your linked diff. This is getting ridiculous. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 17:15, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
- I think this is getting ridiculous and probably needs a close. Regarding Billion, I explained my rationale multiple times here. And regarding the Agdam Mosque article, I removed one repetition which still is cited 2 times in the article (once in lead and once in history section). And the roof part, I actually partially removed your recently added edit of "no roof". It seemed clear from the source that the roof is intact, and I checked other images which show the roof intact, so your edit was misleading. And btw, this report isn't about me or about edits I just did. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 16:22, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
- Why do you keep changing the premise? You did the same thing in ANI discussion. You claim one thing, then when you're called out, you change the topic to another as if you weren't defending the former relentlessly over and over again.
- And it isn't just "single mistake", you kept defending that EPRESS nonsense in, A) talk page; B) ANI; and C) even in here. This raises huge WP:CIR issues especially for controversial topic area like AA, and just because you have "thousands of contributions" it doesn't excuse your behavior, also see WP:YANI. I've seen far better editors than anyone from AA including all the ones here, who have still been sanctioned for various reasons. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 20:34, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
- I think this is getting ridiculous and probably needs a close. Regarding Billion, I explained my rationale multiple times here. And regarding the Agdam Mosque article, I removed one repetition which still is cited 2 times in the article (once in lead and once in history section). And the roof part, I actually partially removed your recently added edit of "no roof". It seemed clear from the source that the roof is intact, and I checked other images which show the roof intact, so your edit was misleading. And btw, this report isn't about me or about edits I just did. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 16:22, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
- First of all, that's a diff after Armatura asked you to stop, and he said if you continue presenting that as a "proof" of anything, he would report you. And secondly, you still continued to defend that "publication" even in your linked diff. This is getting ridiculous. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 17:15, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
- When you say stuff like this, And btw, even Armenian media makes analogies with nuclear weapons. This is an article by an Armenian journalist, titled "Did our people use a hydrogen bomb in Aghdam and Zangelan?", you should expect a reply. When you keep defending that nonsense even after the reply, you should expect your opposition to dispute that. When you keep defending it in ANI too and here, you should also expect the same. How is this so hard to understand? You keep saying "I didn't brought it up" as if you weren't the one defending it over and over when people asked you to stop. I can link all the other diffs but it would be long and I've already shown it in ANI. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 16:17, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
Result concerning Grandmaster
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Having only reviewed the main diffs presented by Armatura and immediate context, it's hard to see the repeated invocation of epress.am as representative of Armenian media as anything other than disruptive; the assertion by Armatura that these are ultra-nationalist ravings with no significant editorial oversight or cachet appears correct. I'm less inclined to see the other two diffs as sanctionable, and am unimpressed by their inclusion in this report. I haven't yet read through Grandmaster's response and boomerang case at this time. signed, Rosguill talk 00:42, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
- Ok, having read through Grandmaster's case against Armatura, setting aside the general merits of epress.am, I'm seeing a lot of IDHT related to the specific epress.am article in question, which very plainly states that it was sourced from Facebook, and am further concerned by Grandmaster's continued attempts even in this AE discussion to hold up a reporter's Armenian ethnicity as somehow equivalent to speaking for Armenians or Armenian sources. That repeated attitude, even in the absence of the other concerns raised in this report, is probably a sign that a topic ban is appropriate. Given that the evidence of Armatura's bad behavior here is limited to "assumptions of bad faith", which, given the concerning behaviors I've already highlighted, aren't really "assumptions", I don't think that a boomerang is warranted here, and I am left disinclined to review the tit-for-tat accusations against ZaniGiovanni. I would, however, very much appreciate additional administrators' input, as the editors involved here have more history than just the set of diffs presented in this case. signed, Rosguill talk 19:42, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
- Ealdgyth, that depends on whether you're looking for a "Cliff Notes on the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict" or "Cliff Notes on the Wikipedia battles over the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict"; the former is doable, as our articles on the two main periods of conflict, First Nagorno-Karabakh war and 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war are relatively well-written. signed, Rosguill talk 19:51, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
- Grandmaster, I think your response mixes the two incidents I was referring to: the bandying about of the epress.am article drawn from facebook is one; the emphasis of an IWPR reporter's Armenian ethnicity is another. My view is that frankly, these sorts of arguments belie a battleground and opportunist mentality that you should have unlearned by this point. If after 16 years of editing Wikipedia, you're still trying to use these kinds of arguments when discussing A-A, I don't think you should be allowed to edit contentious articles related to this topic. signed, Rosguill talk 20:01, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
- Grandmaster, nope, I understood that perfectly: your apparently continued insistence that a specific journalist's Armenian identity (which appears to be inferred just from their name?) has any bearing on the situation is problematic in my view. If you had left those comments at just highlighting that IWPR is not in cahoots with the Azerbaijani government, I would have evaluated them differently. signed, Rosguill talk 20:14, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
- Ok, having read through Grandmaster's case against Armatura, setting aside the general merits of epress.am, I'm seeing a lot of IDHT related to the specific epress.am article in question, which very plainly states that it was sourced from Facebook, and am further concerned by Grandmaster's continued attempts even in this AE discussion to hold up a reporter's Armenian ethnicity as somehow equivalent to speaking for Armenians or Armenian sources. That repeated attitude, even in the absence of the other concerns raised in this report, is probably a sign that a topic ban is appropriate. Given that the evidence of Armatura's bad behavior here is limited to "assumptions of bad faith", which, given the concerning behaviors I've already highlighted, aren't really "assumptions", I don't think that a boomerang is warranted here, and I am left disinclined to review the tit-for-tat accusations against ZaniGiovanni. I would, however, very much appreciate additional administrators' input, as the editors involved here have more history than just the set of diffs presented in this case. signed, Rosguill talk 19:42, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
- Is there a "Cliff Notes to the A-A conflict" by someone not involved for us admins that don't edit in the topic area? I'm inclined to tban Granmaster but I'm very aware that I know little of the whole conflict and would prefer at least having some clue before going full-on tban... Ealdgyth (talk) 19:49, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
- Having just spent a depressing amount of time reading pages that display bad behavior from editors, I can get behind a tban. When a topic area is contentious, the way to deal with it is to step up your editing and behave better, not sink down into the mud further. Ealdgyth (talk) 20:59, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
Davidbena
Davidbena is topic banned from the subject of the Israel-Palestine conflict, broadly construed. This topic ban is in addition to, and does not repeal or alter, the existing community sanction. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:37, 29 January 2022 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Davidbena
If this doesn't belong at WP:AE but at WP:ANI, please simply inform me, it isn't very clear. Davidbena has a topic ban from ARBPIA basically (exact restriction can be found at the linked editing restrictions page). I noticed, while new page patralling, the creation of Outline of Jerusalem, which I moved to Draft:Outline of Jerusalem as it seemed extremely one-sided in its POV, claiming Jerusalem as the capital of Israel without any indication of the very disputed state of this, and with an outline that didn't even mention Palestine or the Palestinians, nor the division in East and West Jerusalem. After explaining at the talk page why I moved this POV page to draft, I checked the history of the editor, only to notice that they have recently come of a two month block for violations of their ARBPIA ban. As the above POV problems are quite clearly ARBPIA / post-1948 politics related, I believe this to be a flagrant breach of their topic ban. Fram (talk) 09:25, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
In reply to Davidbena's statement, an article which includes the controversial claims of one side (Jerusalem as the capital of Israel) but excludes the controversial claims and even every mention of the other side (Palestinians) is not a neutral post and is not avoiding the inflammatory stuff, but putting it right there, from the start and until the end of the outline. Fram (talk) 14:11, 28 January 2022 (UTC) I didn't really plan to reply again, but this statement by DavidBena is so far of the truth... When you are banned from an XY dispute, and you then write an article claimed by both X and Y, but only write it from the X point of view and totally ignore Y, then you are not "avoiding the XY dispute", you are taking a clear position in it by choosing only the X position and ignoring Y completely. So yes, you have clearly broken your topic ban. Fram (talk) 15:29, 28 January 2022 (UTC) Discussion concerning DavidbenaStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by DavidbenaActually, my limited topic ban (see here) permits me to edit articles carrying the Israel/Palestine conflict area tag, which I have been doing ever since, writing specifically on historical, geographical, cultural, archaeological issues related to, both, Palestinians (Arabs) and Israelis (Jews), but WITHOUT engaging specifically in those areas of conflict that are well-known and inflammatory, such as war, extra-judiciary killings, terrorism, etc. See Draft:Outline of Jerusalem. Jerusalem is a city that has been settled by both peoples, Jews and Arabs alike, and although the city is contended by one indigenous people, my current topic ban prohibits me from saying so. As you can see, I have avoided writing anything about the Arab-Israeli conflict, and have only mentioned the two peoples that live in the city, each with its own language and dress customs; nothing, however, about war and conflict. I am also permitted to write on Palestinian issues after the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, such as on geography, such as I did on Jerusalem, when such edits do not divulge in the specific areas of conflict, such as Palestinian claims over East Jerusalem. Even Fram, the submitter of this enforcement request, admits here that I have not broken my limited topic ban.Davidbena (talk) 13:39, 28 January 2022 (UTC) @Floquenbeam:,@Ealdgyth:,@Dennis Brown:,@Girth Summit:,@Seraphimblade:,@Hut 8.5: This article came to describe Jerusalem; not the government. It just so happens that Israel’s Parliament is situated in West Jerusalem, and there are, I suppose, members of that Parliament who would like to see two independent states in our country – divided along ethnic lines, but I am not concerned with these matters in this article. Keeping everything as simple as it can possibly be, based on what people have always known to be Jerusalem for thousands of years, before the current conflict. Needless to say, with respect to both ethnic groups living in this city and who both have historical ties to the city dating back centuries, it is unanimously opined that both ethnic groups – Jews and Arabs – should remain in this city and pursue their own individual lifestyles without disturbance. There are no grounds for the claim that it is the government (Israeli, or otherwise) that has determined its ancient borders, or has given to it its name, since the people living in the city for centuries have already determined the name of the city, neither are the trees and the stones found there able to be delineated as not belonging to Jerusalem. My limited topic ban allowed me to address historical and geographical issues, even in relation to cities in Israel/Palestine, and even after the 1948 Arab/Israeli war. The permit to edit pages with the I/P tag proves that. I call God to my witness that I respect all peoples in this land, and I have no qualms against any man, be they Jew or Arab Muslim. If I should be thought worthy of an extended topic ban, I will eventually ask to repeal it. True, not having this "limited topic ban" could have avoided all this confusion. Moreover, unlike some editors here on Wikipedia, I strongly disdain having to write about war and conflicts, except where it might be to show how one place-name in the country was changed because of that conflict, and this, too, is purely related to history, with no ill-intent in my mind.Davidbena (talk) 17:26, 29 January 2022 (UTC) @Nableezy:, thanks for your kind words. I wish to only say that the page in which I was editing (Draft:Outline of Jerusalem) asked for the current government over the city and I could not possibly think of leaving it blank, although perhaps you can come along and re-submit the draft copy, but add this time that its status is disputed. I could not do that because of my limited topic ban. I was not advocating any international acceptance of the current government, because, honestly, if you ask my personal opinion, I would prefer a monarchy over Israel's current political system. That's my own view. Secondly, I am against dividing up the country with barrier fences, etc., because this gives the impression that Jews and Arabs cannot get along, when I think we can. I work with Arabs from Surif and other nearby villages, and I can tell you that I highly respect and love some of these families, and I would love to visit them in their respective villages, if it were not for the tensions created by some of those of a more radical mindset and who upset dual co-existence in our mutually shared country.Davidbena (talk) 19:09, 29 January 2022 (UTC) Statement by SelfstudierPrevious report Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1077#Tban enforcement and clarification, discussion not closed, ARBPIA sanctions were separately applied for canvassing. Tban says "...indefinitely banned from (a) any edits relating to post-1948 Arab-Israeli geopolitics, broadly construed,..." The Tban permits editing unrelated to the modern conflict, a potential lack of clarity resulting imo in the editor pushing the boundary. Although a community sanction it does seem an ARBPIA matter and I think the page being created is not a permissible exception. Selfstudier (talk) 10:53, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
Statement by NableezyFloq, I agree it is the latter. David, I know speaking directly to you isnt quite the normal process on this board, but as somebody who has over and over again argued for you to maintain an ability to edit you really have to understand the limits of your ban by now. Stay away from the modern politics of the State of Israel, full stop. Jerusalem's status as capital has been one of the most contentious topics in the history of Wikipedia as far as I know of. We still have a page level sanction forbidding anybody from modifying the language of its status as capital in our Jerusalem article absent a new RFC. You have to know that saying "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is a contentious statement specifically because of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Just stay away from anything about the modern state of Israel that is even a little bit contentious. I still think highly of you, and still believe you are editing with a good faith belief that you are not violating your ban. But you are. And sooner or later you are going to exhaust the patience of the people who have repeatedly made special carve outs for you (sometimes at my own urging). And when enough people decide that it simply is not worth your positives to try to ensure you edit within the scope of the tailor made ban you are just going to end up banned from WP as a whole. And since I still think highly of you, I would really like that not to happen. nableezy - 16:31, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning Davidbena
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Critchion
Indef blocked for WP:DE ++ by me as a standard admin action. The behavior is bigger than one topic, even if he's only had the chance to edit in one area. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:29, 29 January 2022 (UTC) |
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Critchion
n/a
Recent storm in a teacup involving three politicians tweets from 10 years ago, from before they were even politicians. I'm not opposed to any mention of this whatsoever as my comments at Talk:Sinéad Ennis show, but the constant attempts to go way above and beyond what the references say is unacceptable. I've made user talk page as well as the article talk pages to explain the problems to the editor, they just reply with wild accusations and cries of censorship. FDW777 (talk) 16:59, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
Discussion concerning CritchionStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by CritchionStorm in a tea cup. This guy is a Sinn Fein supporter and will not allow facts to be printed about them. Statement by (username)Result concerning Critchion
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by FDW777
Sanction vacated by issuing administrator. --TheSandDoctor Talk 05:45, 2 February 2022 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by FDW777It is alleged I engaged in "repeated edit warring . . . to restore contentious material without consensus". On the contrary, the material has consensus. It was originally added to the article at 14:29, 13 October 2020, and appears to have been stable in the article until Crowder's latest video. As I have conistently pointed out over the last 24 hours, if something has been in the article for so long it represents the consensus version of the article. At Talk:Steven Crowder#Regarding Bloomberg's citation of a graduate student as an expert multiple editors reject the idea that you can dispute long-standing content that is properly referenced, remove it, and then insist other editors obtain consensus for its restoration. That's simply not how WP:CONSENSUS is written, as @MrOllie: states here
@Dennis Brown: articulates my feelings perfectly. Has this been new content, or content removed with an edit summary making it clear it was removed as a (potential) WP:BLP violation, I would absolutely not have restored it. Anyway, I'd prefer to move on to other things and leave Steven Crowder behind as there's plenty of other editors involved at present. To that end, I will offer not to edit Steven Crowder's article or talk page ever again (and any closely related articles, say for example should a standalone article be created on "Louder With Crowder"). In return I would like the official topic ban rescinded, as I consider it an unfair black mark against my name. FDW777 (talk) 18:52, 31 January 2022 (UTC) Statement by TheSandDoctorI stand by the sanction as written. FDW777 is aware of discretionary sanctions in this area as they filed an AE request for a BLP sanction today, thereby fulfilling criterion 4 of awareness. What FDW included here is only a partial representation of the sanction as stated. They left out that this conduct is directly violating principle 1 of the arbitration committee's final decision in BLP: "do no harm". WP:BLP states that WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOR are the three core content policies that must be strictly (emphasis not mine) adhered to. The verifiability policy additionally states that there must be consensus for the inclusion of disputed content, not the other way around. FDW has been made readily aware of that in the talk page discussions (awareness, response) and edit summaries (revert, response). Then he continuously contravened the aforementioned policies while discussion was initially taking place on the talk page and was subsequently escalated to BLPN. FDW showed no signs that they were going to stop this behaviour after being informed and their statement here has further indicated that they are unlikely to change their combative behaviour in this area, which solidifies how I originally came to this decision. --TheSandDoctor Talk 18:16, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
Statement by MrOllieThis is an edit war that TheSandDoctor took part in: [23] - they are clearly not an uninvolved administrator. - MrOllie (talk) 17:57, 30 January 2022 (UTC) Statement by Zaathras1. Hmm, per WP:ONUS, "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." No one was seeking to include disputed content here, it appears that a single editor removed it on 1/28, this was objected to the next day, then the edit warring by Coffee began, helped by SandDoctor. Yes, "it has been in the article for awhile" is not a shield against removal forevermore, but longevity should be given some due when someone comes in to remove content. And outside of egregious BLP violations, allowing the material to stand as it has while under discussion also would not do the subject harm. Two administrators completely misread the circumstances of the content being reverted. One did a WP:CRYBLP to keep a preferred version, the other issued an arbitrary topic-ban when they were (despite protests above) involved in the reverting. Not in an admin capacity, but as a user. This is bordering on tool abuse. I also count 6 editors who were in favor of retaining the text, FWIW. Against 2 admins and the Lettuce guy. Zaathras (talk) 20:09, 30 January 2022 (UTC) 2. Doc, you're basically doing argument from authority. "Arb says X", "I say I'm doing X", "I'm right." No. Merely saying "it's a BLP concern" doesn't automagically make it so, hence the sage advice in WP:CRYBLP. In the case of the subject, Steven Crowder, it appears that his article already describes him as utilizing homophobic and racist speech. The material you reverted was a reliably sourced observer's opinion that Crowder's channel content was overtly racist, and contained examples of such against Asians. The BLP of a man who is already described as using racist slurs is not materially harmed by including examples of such, and an opinion of such. Your argument falls flat. Zaathras (talk) 21:09, 30 January 2022 (UTC) Statement by NorthBySouthBaranofTheSandDoctor's statement that TheSandDoctor's interpretation of policy would require a formal consensus to be found on literally every single word of every single article relating to a living person prior to inclusion, and allow users to unilaterally remove every single word of any such article which has not received such a consensus, merely by declaring that they have
Statement by Kingoflettuce (moved from below)@EdJohnston: I think you have summed up the situation perfectly, Ed. What I do not understand is why certain editors keep insinuating that the editors on the "other side" e.g. myself, Coffee, Doc, are "trolls" or "vandals" "crying BLP" (as if that was a sacred policy as opposed to... Actual policies) and are so insistent on having those few sentences up while the discussion is still ongoing. I always had the impression that we erred on the side of great caution when it came to BLPs, especially those of contentious figures like Crowder... Kingoflettuce (talk) 11:50, 31 January 2022 (UTC) Like, it's far from "well established" (thanks to the diff FW provided, I now am blessed with the knowledge that it was randomly included in a half-baked "Content Analysis" section by a self-avowed furry), nor will its removal "paralyse" the article. So I really don't see what's the big deal with just waiting for actual (not "default") consensus to emerge. Kingoflettuce (talk) 11:56, 31 January 2022 (UTC) And what's with the slippery slopes that Nomoskedasticity and NorthBySouthBaranof keep invoking? Kingoflettuce (talk) 15:36, 31 January 2022 (UTC) Moved from admin section to this section because of involvement. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:45, 31 January 2022 (UTC) Statement by AquillionI asked on talk whether anyone was willing to assert that this fell under BLP, and the most anyone was willing to assert was that it could be considered covered by WP:BLPKIND, which is emphatically not WP:BLPREMOVE (and nowhere near sufficient to satisfy the requirements of BLPREMOVE.) To be clear, it's not just that this is not the sort of BLP violation that would require immediate removal - at least in that discussion, none of the people trying to remove it were willing to assert that it rose to the level of BLP violation that requires immediate removal (looking over BLPREMOVE, it clearly does not.) It is an attributed statement from a high-quality source commenting on a public figure, not something that can reasonably be described as presenting an immediate threat to the subject's reputation. Obviously there is still room to discuss WP:DUE weight, focus, rewording, and so forth, but BLP is not a limitless blank check to instantly remove all longstanding text from any article which the article subject might object to; as it says, I also want to particularly note that I feel that a huge part of the reason this went so poorly was because of Coffee's "procedural revert" where they implied they were indifferent to the text and were removing it solely on policy grounds (an indifference that they ultimately discarded when challenged.) Those sorts of reverts are terrible ideas outside of the most clear-cut of cases, which this very clearly was not, since they amount to a WP:STONEWALL situation - it means you're refusing to present or even endorse an argument related to the article content that can be engaged with or answered, instead claiming that policy "obviously" requires a specific outcome as though that is indisputable. Even when it comes to BLP, you need to be willing to assert a position on the content and sources so other people can reasonably answer and discussion can proceed; if WP:BLPREMOVE's applicability is obvious, then it should be equally obvious that the sourcing is insufficient, and it is particularly important to emphasize why you think that when invoking such a strong policy, so that discussion and consensus-building can follow up on that disputed point. --Aquillion (talk) 00:36, 2 February 2022 (UTC) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by FDW777Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by NomoskedasticityI would request that everyone concerned take account of the potential for disruption of the encyclopedia if we allow any "challenge" to underpin exclusion of material. This idea is increasingly attempted (and, it seems, increasingly successful), and it's not hard at all to appreciate the way it can be weaponized, by any motivated faction regardless of their ideology. If we allow a "challenge" to material supported by a Bloomberg article, we can allow a challenge to any material at all, no matter what the source. There is no lack of creativity in the invention of reasons, amounting to endless special pleading. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:09, 31 January 2022 (UTC) Statement by RandomCanadianThe history of Steven Crowder looks like a bad case of edit-warring for all involved, including (but most certainly not limited to) FDW and SandDoctor. I do not see how the topic ban is correct on either procedural grounds (TheSandDoctor at the absolute very least clearly looks involved - whether one revert is truly involved or not might be open to interpretation, but if they were unsure, they should have refrained or maybe asked for the opinion of someone else, completely uninvolved) or on merits (topic bans are supposed to be a last resort, like a block but with only some pages in mind, and usually spurred on by long-term disruption and editing against community norms. On this second point, I simply do not see evidence of this kind of long-term disruption (the kind that would be sufficient to warrant an unilaterally imposed topic ban) in either FDW's comments at Talk:Steven Crowder (none of which I find objectionable, a prima vista) or in their actions on the article (2 reverts in total - which makes the question of whether SandDoctor was involved or not far more interesting...). Ok, sure, long-term editors should abstain from edit-warring as much as possible, but if FDW was really the main contributor to the problem [he isn't, and I note that clearly, this was something done by many other editors], then a partial block for edit warring - or, more likely, page protection, as that is what was required - would have been plenty enough. Nor does the (clean) block log contain any hint that this is a problem which previously lead to hypothetical disruption and sanctions which FDW would have had hypothetically ignored. The discussion at BLPN is certainly heated and contentious, but there again FDW's comment fall far short of what is usually considered disruptive (and given that policy issues remain unsettled, this is clearly a matter where reasonable editors could have different interpretations). In short, the topic ban seems wrong both from the clear appearance of a conflict of interest and on the merits. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:34, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)Result of the appeal by FDW777
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Clean Copy
Clean Copy is topic banned from Rudolf Steiner and antroposophy, broadly construed--Ymblanter (talk) 19:41, 3 February 2022 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Clean Copy
I have also reported the edit warring to WP:FTN. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:53, 31 January 2022 (UTC) I have replied to Clean Copy that a term does not have to be mentioned verbatim in order to fulfill WP:V requirements (the term The information that Steiner was a rank pseudoscientist is spread in various Wikipedia articles, but till now never got centralized at Rudolf Steiner. See e.g. [28]. tgeorgescu (talk) 10:35, 31 January 2022 (UTC) @Clean Copy: I did not edit war against
Discussion concerning Clean CopyStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Clean CopyUser:Tgeorgescu's original insertion of the text "He was also a peddler of rank pseudoscience" used a citation that linked to a specific page that said only, "Effects of the preparation have been verified scientifically." This clearly did not support the claim. It did not occur to me that the link he inserted (which was to page 32) was not to the page he meant to cite (page 31). Once the page reference was clarified, and further citations were added, I modified the language from "a peddler of rank pseudoscience," in which "peddler" and "rank" were loaded terms supported by no citation, and a clear violation of WP:EPSTYLE, to "His ideas have been termed pseudoscientific," which is clearly accurate and less strident. I am certainly open to other language that reflects the tone and content of the citations and appropriate to an encyclopedia. There has been no violation of WP:3RR, for example; I just made these two changes. Clean Copytalk 03:59, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
Statement by PaleoNeonateMore a detail than a statement, I noticed Clear Copy recently when assessing the state of some related articles after a notice at FTN. My comment is to share these links in relation to a conflict of interest: 1, 2 (agreed 6-0 by ARBCOM at the time in 2006). —PaleoNeonate – 08:20, 31 January 2022 (UTC) Statement by Alexbrn
Statement by an IP editor
Statement by (username)Result concerning Clean Copy
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Just another Wikipedian editor
User blocked as a sock--Ymblanter (talk) 14:38, 2 February 2022 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Just another Wikipedian editor
P-Blocked a month ago for two weeks - I have not bothered to link relevant evidence.
WP:CIR issues; prob. too young. Either an indef or a TBan is necessary.
Discussion concerning Just another Wikipedian editorStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Just another Wikipedian editorStatement by (username)Result concerning Just another Wikipedian editor
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71.114.58.144
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning 71.114.58.144
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Clayoquot (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 14:48, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- 71.114.58.144 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 4#ARBPIA_General_Sanctions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- January 14 BLP violation
- Jan 26 BLP violation that was revision-deleted by Drmies
- Feb 2 BLP violation
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I filed a complaint about this user at WP:AIV; it was declined because the user's last warning was "stale". I requested protection for Steven Salaita and Steven Salaita hiring controversy at WP:RFPP; nothing was done because an administrator said there hadn't been enough disruptive activity to justify protection. I filed a complaint about this user at AN/I and the only outcome was that Drmies deleted some of this user's edits. So I am wondering how long this has to go on for before we do something to prevent this user from making further BLP violations. For the record, I do not personally agree with the views of Steven Salaita, but we have BLP standards that should be upheld.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning 71.114.58.144
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by 71.114.58.144
Statement by (username)
Result concerning 71.114.58.144
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Hard to enforce DS with an ip, so I decided to be creative. The IP address is listed as dynamic, but a look at the contribs says it is remarkably stable (mine at the house hasn't changed in years either, so it happens). I have blocked the IP for 6 months as a standard admin action. I left a template on the IPs page to this effect. If they come back with another IP, we may look at semi-protecting the pages. Leaving this report open in case any admin wants to opine or change my actions, which I'm open to. Otherwise, any admin can just close it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:30, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
Ypatch
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Ypatch
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Ali Ahwazi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 11:51, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Ypatch (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Iranian politics#RfC moderation
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 15 May 2019 A now-banned user adds a section
- 17 December 2021 The content is removed after 2.5 years
- Here I and Vice Regent say that the removal of this old content needs consensus building. In truth, we say the user wasn't banned at the time that he added the content. Ypatch and The Dream Boat (outed himself to be a meatpuppet) say it ought to be removed due to the user. Ypatch keeps repeating that the content is added by a now banned user and hence should be removed. He edit wars against other users over this [32], [33], [34].
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- 10 December 2019 Ypatch blocked for edit warring on an IRANPOL article.
- 27 April 2020 Topic banned from IRANPOL articles broadly construed, for 3 months.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- He knows there were some decisions.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Ypatch ought to create consensus for removing the old content, but instead of that, he is railroading other users by beginning a wrong RFC and I told him this. The user has reverted other users three times while he only commented once in talk about the dispute. AFAIK, because the content has been there since 2019 and the user adding the content had no problems at that time, Ypatch needed to make consensus before removing the section. Instead of that, he says inserting the content needs consensus. He has opened a RFC for insertion of the content while the RFC ought to be for removal of the content.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
I informed/notified the mentioned user Here
Discussion concerning Ypatch
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Ypatch
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Ypatch
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- When will the lot of you learn that what you should be focusing on is discussing content, and not procedural wikilawyering about what version should exist while an RfC is under way? The content was added by a user subsequently banned. You've not provided any evidence that it had consensus at the time it was inserted; indeed, the page history suggests it didn't. As such, it requires consensus to be placed in the article. Yes, Ypatch is edit-warring, and he should be less trigger-happy with the revert button, but he's not the only one guilty of reverting before discussing, and he did in fact start the RfC, which was the right thing to do. In case anyone reading this decides I'm somehow favorably disposed toward Ypatch, I'll note that I have sanctioned him before for battleground conduct, of which I'm seeing plenty from several different users. I would close this with a warning to all parties about battleground conduct. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:02, 3 February 2022 (UTC)