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User:Amirhosein Izadi
I am surprised that my proposal to ban User:Amirhosein Izadi on account of hoaxing was archived without being refused or heeded. A subsequent sockpuppet investigation had a checkuser request declined, but hoaxing is still a bannable offense, right? I saw no counterarguments being made in the last discussion in regards this user being a hoaxer. He's done this multiple times and has voiced no intention to stop. So, again, i believe it may be necessary to block this user to prevent him from creating further hoaxes. Once he's stopped from creating further hoaxes i'd like to go through his articles and see what is and isn't a hoax. Please consult Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Turkmen Sahra and the previous ANI thread as to how i've deduced this user is a hoaxer. I find this case bizarre, never before have i seen an unopposed proposal be archived and ignored. Koopinator (talk) 19:25, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- It's possible that your thread was archived due to inactivity rather than because an admin declined your request; I think WP:ANI has an automated script which does that. I think one of the issues also is that the user (Amirhosein Izadi)) stopped editing a week ago so the situation would appear at first glance to be less urgent. In the mean time, I think it would be helpful to go through his contributions to identify potential hoaxes. I have tagged one article already as a hoax which you identified, and I am willing to take a look through his history later today to see if I see anything obviously fake. Michepman (talk) 01:33, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
- Well, my first ANI thread was created only a few hours after that user's last edit. The only reason i'm now creating this thread on a week-long inactive user is because the admins have been taking their sweet time with taking action. I think it's better for me to get to work with these hoaxes now rather than wait for the day that the admins actually enforce this consensus. Hopefully that day comes sooner than later. Koopinator (talk) 12:56, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Koopinator: in my experience, just grab the nearest admin and ask for their comment. Also, the less words you make people have to read, the better. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 15:01, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
- Not an admin, but have been noticing this case as it develops. Archiving is automatic; it appears your thread was simply overlooked. Good on you for bringing it up again. I support an indefinite block on the hoaxer. If no admins respond, as MJL said, you may have to ask someone directly. -Crossroads- (talk) 02:10, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Bbb23: can you please look at this thread and take action? Koopinator (talk) 07:48, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Not an admin, but have been noticing this case as it develops. Archiving is automatic; it appears your thread was simply overlooked. Good on you for bringing it up again. I support an indefinite block on the hoaxer. If no admins respond, as MJL said, you may have to ask someone directly. -Crossroads- (talk) 02:10, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Koopinator: in my experience, just grab the nearest admin and ask for their comment. Also, the less words you make people have to read, the better. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 15:01, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
- Well, my first ANI thread was created only a few hours after that user's last edit. The only reason i'm now creating this thread on a week-long inactive user is because the admins have been taking their sweet time with taking action. I think it's better for me to get to work with these hoaxes now rather than wait for the day that the admins actually enforce this consensus. Hopefully that day comes sooner than later. Koopinator (talk) 12:56, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
- Previous Thread: I think Archived here. Lightburst (talk) 15:12, 3 January 2020 (UTC) someone erased this comment twice - not sure why - please explain.
- I removed it twice because the OP linked to it in their initial post, so your link is unneccessary. Surely you know how to look at the revision history of this page to (a) see it was I and (b) see my edit summary explaining why I removed it. But all that for absolutely nothing.--Bbb23 (talk) 03:30, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Bbb23: Doh...Thanks, by the time I look for the diff, there are always so many new posts that I could not be bothered to weed through them all. I just kept reposting. I also did not see that the OP included it and that is my mistake. Lightburst (talk) 04:09, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Viewing the user's fawiki contributions shows "07:28, 10 December 2018 Sunfyre blocked Amirhosein Izadi with an expiration time of indefinite". @fa:User:Sunfyre: Would you mind outlining what the problem was at fawiki? Johnuniq (talk) 06:28, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah that's quite concerning. FWIW, I did see the earlier thread. Did not comment at the time in part because what I saw was suspicious but also quite difficult to assess given the obscurity of the subject matter of what they were dealing with. They failure to offer us any explanation was not re-assuring, still I also did not want to kick out an editor who may be an expert on an obscure non English subject area just because of a misunderstanding. While I can't say for sure, I wonder if other than the time of year others also felt the same, hence the limited response. Nil Einne (talk) 12:55, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne: At this point i don't think there's any remaining doubt as to this user being a hoaxer. Consider the article Ice Flower (album) by the same creator. "Ice Flower has been featured in several prestigious publications, including the Los Angeles Times" - this sentence is sourced to this article, freely available online. The reference looks convincing, it is from the right publication and the title looks related to the subject matter, the only problem is the source's text does not make a single mention of an album called ice flower. It is deliberately intended to deceive the reader into thinking the reference & info is legitimate when it isn't - a textbook definition of a hoax. I see no reason to keep this thread open or keep this user unblocked. When i first failed to find the sources, my mind went to the Bicholim conflict investigation from 2012. In that case, the AFD immediately led to the article being deleted in a day and the editor being banned within a week. I wish this investigation would've gone that smoothly - that there's wouldn't be a need to wait a week on my unopposed AFD, that i wouldn't have to make 2 ANI threads, no separate sock investigation, no cross-wiki shenanigans, no
adminuser saying it could all be a misunderstanding and that jazz. Koopinator (talk) 14:06, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne: At this point i don't think there's any remaining doubt as to this user being a hoaxer. Consider the article Ice Flower (album) by the same creator. "Ice Flower has been featured in several prestigious publications, including the Los Angeles Times" - this sentence is sourced to this article, freely available online. The reference looks convincing, it is from the right publication and the title looks related to the subject matter, the only problem is the source's text does not make a single mention of an album called ice flower. It is deliberately intended to deceive the reader into thinking the reference & info is legitimate when it isn't - a textbook definition of a hoax. I see no reason to keep this thread open or keep this user unblocked. When i first failed to find the sources, my mind went to the Bicholim conflict investigation from 2012. In that case, the AFD immediately led to the article being deleted in a day and the editor being banned within a week. I wish this investigation would've gone that smoothly - that there's wouldn't be a need to wait a week on my unopposed AFD, that i wouldn't have to make 2 ANI threads, no separate sock investigation, no cross-wiki shenanigans, no
- Yeah that's quite concerning. FWIW, I did see the earlier thread. Did not comment at the time in part because what I saw was suspicious but also quite difficult to assess given the obscurity of the subject matter of what they were dealing with. They failure to offer us any explanation was not re-assuring, still I also did not want to kick out an editor who may be an expert on an obscure non English subject area just because of a misunderstanding. While I can't say for sure, I wonder if other than the time of year others also felt the same, hence the limited response. Nil Einne (talk) 12:55, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
@Johnuniq: The block log entry at the user contribution page at fa-wiki [1] contains a Persian word with a link. That word put into Google Translate comes out as "Sabotage". It links to a policy page [2] that is apparently equivalent to our WP:Vandalism, per both putting the top of it into Google Translate and the interwiki link. That page of ours does talk about hoaxes. This is all very consistent with this editor being a hoaxer. I am going to notify Sunfyre on their talk page on fa-wiki to ensure they see this, in case that link did not generate a ping. -Crossroads- (talk) 04:23, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Crossroads: Thanks. My ping did not work. I forgot that a normal User:Example link is needed to generate a ping, not fa:User:Example. Johnuniq (talk) 04:32, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- User:Amirhosein Izadi (User:Amir.85) is WP:SNEAKY: The user is suspected of creating false articles.--Sunfyre (talk) 15:54, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you Sunfyre. Here is Sunfyre's reply to me at fa-wiki: [3] The translation (with some commonsense tweaks) reads:
@Crossroads: Hello, User: Amirhosein Izadi, User: Amir.85, He was making inaccurate information with both accounts, so he was denied access. (en: WP: SNEAKY), For more on this, read this and this. - SunfyreT
- Each "this" gave me a link. Each discussion can be pasted into Google Translate and read. They are not long, but they establish that this user's content is not trustworthy and most editors were saying his content should be deleted.
- This all supports that both Amirhosein Izadi, and the account Sunfyre has just mentioned, Amir.85, should be blocked indefinitely. The Amir.85 account does have 2 edits on en-wiki from
just the last few monthsthe latter part of 2018, [4] so it should be included. - I concur that this user's content is not trustworthy and should be deleted. All of it. Only exception should be if someone else has personally verified it, but that won't be the case generally, as most of the sources are in Persian and it is too hard to check each piece. We already know this user is a liar, and even if there is content that is partly true, it is still totally misleading. I know Koopinator has PRODded some of the hoax articles - I think the rest should also be put through PROD or AfD (possibly AfD to prevent WP:REFUNDing, and perhaps they could be bundled into one nomination as well). Finally, any PRODs that get removed for some reason should be sent to AfD.
- I think we should also commend Koopinator for insisting this not fall by the wayside and for tracking down and destroying false information. -Crossroads- (talk) 19:25, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Crossroads: Thank you for your kind words. While i think a lot of this user's articles are unsalvageable, there are some articles from this user which i think should be partially kept. These are Battle of Rasht, House of Dadvey, Mohammad Qoli Salim Tehrani. Recapture of Isfahan, Siege of Tabriz (1908), and Atabak Park Incident. These articles were translated from good-faith articles from Persian Wikipedia, with the user in question adding fictitious material. I used Google Translate on the original articles to get an idea which claims were fabrications and which were good-faith importations, then i removed the fictitious material and copied the original sources to verify the good content. In Battle of Rasht i also added a small amount of information, since i was familiar with the subject at hand. Koopinator (talk) 19:49, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Agreed with you here. Basically my thought was that any content original to this user should be presumed false. If some of it was on a page created by him, but was original to good faith users on fa-wiki, then that could be fine. You seem to be doing the right thing with regard to what to save and what to cut.
- Johnuniq, any further thoughts at this point on the two problem accounts? -Crossroads- (talk) 06:26, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Crossroads: By two users, do you mean Amirhosein Izadi (talk · contribs) and Amir.85 (talk · contribs)? The latter has a total of two edits, plus several entries in the edit filter log, and no activity since October 2018. The former has no activity since 27 December 2019. If they were to resume editing and declined to engage with other editors asking about the veracity of their articles I would be willing to block indefinitely until a satisfactory explanation was available. However I do not see proof of a hoax at enwiki and blocking now might not be right. I'm sorry to drag this out but can we leave it another week and see if they have resumed editing. Johnuniq (talk) 06:57, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Johnuniq: You see no proof of hoaxing? To repeat myself, consider the article Ice Flower (album) by this user. "Ice Flower has been featured in several prestigious publications, including the Los Angeles Times" - this sentence is sourced to this article, freely available online. The reference looks convincing, it is from the right publication and the title looks related to the subject matter, the only problem is the source's text does not make a single mention of an album called ice flower. It is deliberately intended to deceive the reader into thinking the reference & info is legitimate when it isn't - a textbook definition of a hoax.
"Subtle hoaxes seriously undermine enwiki. If there is some possibility that a hoaxer will start editing again in the future, then a block prevents that harm." Koopinator (talk) 07:17, 7 January 2020 (UTC)- @Koopinator: Thanks for your work on this—maintaining the integrity of articles is very important. Be assured that if the editor resumes editing but fails to provide a satisfactory explanation, they will be blocked. As a clueless admin, all I can assess is what good editors have concluded and I don't see very many such editors who have concluded that a particular article is a hoax. The biggest clue is the block at fawiki but we don't know much about that. Google finds lots of pages discussing the singer Kourosh Yaghmaie and his song "Gol-e Yakh" which apparently is "Ice Flower", for example [5]. The question remains concerning whether Ice Flower (album) exists. The Los Angeles Times article is definitely about Kourosh Yaghmaie (with a different spelling of the second name). It discusses "Back From The Brink" by Kourosh. According to this the first track is "Gol E Yakh" which, as mentioned, is apparently "Ice Flower". That makes the topic very murky and I would want to see more evidence before blocking the user before they have responded. Johnuniq (talk) 09:10, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Johnuniq: Well, maybe i chose a poor example since this was an example of a claim that is a hoax and not an article topic that is a hoax. Take Capture of Ardabil and Battle of Turkmen Sahra (of which the latter was deleted in prior AFD): In the former article you have sources with bogus page numbers, Iranica which does not contain info about Ardabil in the 1910s, and a non-existent (as far as Google search will tell me) work from 2008 called "Russia in the Constitutional Revolution". In the latter article, Battle of Turkmen Sahra, none of the sources supported the existence of the battle, and no google books searches indicated that it existed. Claims unrelated to the battle's existence were also unsourced or had sources which had nothing to do with the claim presented. And this user has had plenty of opportunity to prove he's not a hoaxer, i invited him to comment on the possibility of hoaxing back on 20 December in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Turkmen Sahra, but he continued editing unrelated articles. Koopinator (talk) 11:45, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Koopinator: Thanks for your work on this—maintaining the integrity of articles is very important. Be assured that if the editor resumes editing but fails to provide a satisfactory explanation, they will be blocked. As a clueless admin, all I can assess is what good editors have concluded and I don't see very many such editors who have concluded that a particular article is a hoax. The biggest clue is the block at fawiki but we don't know much about that. Google finds lots of pages discussing the singer Kourosh Yaghmaie and his song "Gol-e Yakh" which apparently is "Ice Flower", for example [5]. The question remains concerning whether Ice Flower (album) exists. The Los Angeles Times article is definitely about Kourosh Yaghmaie (with a different spelling of the second name). It discusses "Back From The Brink" by Kourosh. According to this the first track is "Gol E Yakh" which, as mentioned, is apparently "Ice Flower". That makes the topic very murky and I would want to see more evidence before blocking the user before they have responded. Johnuniq (talk) 09:10, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Johnuniq: You see no proof of hoaxing? To repeat myself, consider the article Ice Flower (album) by this user. "Ice Flower has been featured in several prestigious publications, including the Los Angeles Times" - this sentence is sourced to this article, freely available online. The reference looks convincing, it is from the right publication and the title looks related to the subject matter, the only problem is the source's text does not make a single mention of an album called ice flower. It is deliberately intended to deceive the reader into thinking the reference & info is legitimate when it isn't - a textbook definition of a hoax.
- @Crossroads: By two users, do you mean Amirhosein Izadi (talk · contribs) and Amir.85 (talk · contribs)? The latter has a total of two edits, plus several entries in the edit filter log, and no activity since October 2018. The former has no activity since 27 December 2019. If they were to resume editing and declined to engage with other editors asking about the veracity of their articles I would be willing to block indefinitely until a satisfactory explanation was available. However I do not see proof of a hoax at enwiki and blocking now might not be right. I'm sorry to drag this out but can we leave it another week and see if they have resumed editing. Johnuniq (talk) 06:57, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Crossroads: Thank you for your kind words. While i think a lot of this user's articles are unsalvageable, there are some articles from this user which i think should be partially kept. These are Battle of Rasht, House of Dadvey, Mohammad Qoli Salim Tehrani. Recapture of Isfahan, Siege of Tabriz (1908), and Atabak Park Incident. These articles were translated from good-faith articles from Persian Wikipedia, with the user in question adding fictitious material. I used Google Translate on the original articles to get an idea which claims were fabrications and which were good-faith importations, then i removed the fictitious material and copied the original sources to verify the good content. In Battle of Rasht i also added a small amount of information, since i was familiar with the subject at hand. Koopinator (talk) 19:49, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
Johnuniq, below there was an indef issued on the basis that indef need not mean infinite, but it was partly to force the user to acknowledge the complaints and address them. [6] Couldn't there be a block of Amirhosein Izadi on that basis? It seems dangerous to leave him free to roam without addressing this. What if he pops up again months or years down the road when or where nobody is scrutinizing? As for not having edited since 27 December, that is the same day Koopinator opened the first report. It's just taken a while to get it handled. It seems pretty clear that Amirhosein Izadi is ignoring us. I say we force him to pay heed.
As for Amir.85, I did have a brain fart in saying that account edited in the last few months. [7] I was subconsciously thinking it was 2019, but it's 2020 and the edits were in the latter part of 2018. Still, seems that if one is blocked, so should the other. Fa-wiki established they are the same person and the two edits from Amir.85 are the same behavioral pattern (about music, "creating" an article from an article on fa-wiki, adding dubious material).
Bbb23, Narky Blert, Dekimasu, Michepman, any thoughts on what to do with this? -Crossroads- (talk) 16:00, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- I have no good evidence for this idea, just a sneaking suspicion: that Amirhosein Izadi has had several or many accounts, and drops them like hot potatoes as soon as rumbled. The high quality of his User Page suggests a second or later rodeo. There can't be many English-Farsi cross-Wiki trolls, but there is at least one: Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Chyah.
- I too would like to commend Koopinator both for spotting the problem and for persevering with it. I've only ever nailed one WP:HOAX, and proving the fact was a real pain. (It had been around for several years, but the creator had made one tiny mistake - linking to a DAB page - which brought it within the scope of my radar.) Narky Blert (talk) 16:31, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- Narky Blert - Honestly I cannot think of a real reason not to ban this person. I realize that he hasn't edited since the 27th, but the misconduct that we are talking about here is too pervasive, sneaky, and dangerous to just ignore solely because he has (possibly temporarily) stopped editing. He has over 1500 edits that will now have to be manually checked over for hoax material, and this will be a painstaking process since his hoaxes are constructed in such a way that you have to have a reasonable amount of patience and subject matter expertise to tell.
- I too have only discovered one WP:HOAX in my career, and it was one that had managed to go undetected for years because the hoaxer used fake sources and plausible sounding details. This guy is even more dangerous since his area is a less well understood by the majority of English speaking editors. Michepman (talk) 22:49, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Michepman: (Non-admin comment) Nor can I. Hoaxing is the worst sort of misbehaviour. Even after having spotted something odd, it takes more time and effort to root it out than to write a similar-sized article - very possibly at least double.
- Gud catch! I can't remember (or be bothered to look for) mine, but it had the same tell-tale signs. A C18 French painter, knew all sorts of people; all his paintings were collected after his death by one person, and unluckily lost in a fire in late C19. All sources demonstrating notability were print-only, not in English, and impossible to locate. Plausible circumstantial details and bluelinks and sources, which only began to smell after considerable digging.
- There's a paradox here: the more you know about WP, the easier it would be to write a near-undetectable hoax; but the less inclined you would be to do so. Narky Blert (talk) 00:17, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- FWIW, I've actually come around to the view it may be best to block them at least until they are willing to engage. I'm generally also very reluctant to advocate a block to force engagement unless there is a reason we absolutely require (as opposed to desire) engagement. But IMO especially with the Farsi wikipedia question mark, combined with what happened with the battle articles, I think it's got to the point we need the questions answered before they edit again. (I did look into the Ice Flower stuff myself after reading Johnuniq's comment and ended up deciding there was too little info, even having looked at Geocities and other such places to be able to conclude whether such an album existed.) And maybe they've abandoned the account, but maybe not. Given the type of concern, I don't think we should just ignore it as stale since I don't think there's any guarantee anyone will still be watching in a few months. Nil Einne (talk) 06:46, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
Proposal to indefinitely block the accounts Amirhosein Izadi and Amir.85 per WP:SNEAKY
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Amirhosein Izadi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Amir.85 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Support as proposer. The evidence above is clear that this user adds WP:SNEAKY vandalism by means of hoaxes that could easily go undetected. Sunfyre, an administrator at Persian Wikipedia (fa-wiki), testified that both of these accounts are operated by the same person (which is certainly consistent with these accounts' behavior here) and that the operator adds WP:SNEAKY vandalism, for which they were indefinitely blocked there. The lack of activity by Amirhosein Izadi since then is just them ignoring us and leaves the unacceptable risk that the person (using either account) will come back and add falsehoods in the future, when they won't be under this kind of scrutiny. I believe there is consensus above already for this block, but since this topic apparently has an uncanny ability to fall through the cracks, I am creating an official proposal and pinging the previous participants: Koopinator, Michepman, MJL, Lightburst, Bbb23, Johnuniq, Nil Einne, Sunfyre, Narky Blert. -Crossroads- (talk) 17:11, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support (non-admin). As positives from this exercise, there are now several editors who know the signs, and collaboration between English and Farsi WPs has worked well. Narky Blert (talk) 17:18, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support I have been supporting a block since day 1 of thread 1. Hoaxing is the worst type of misbehaviour. Koopinator (talk) 17:21, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support I have some reservations because blocks are supposed to be preventive rather than punishment, and the problem user stopped editing last year. However I think such a prolific and sneaky vandal should be banned to prevent them from resurfacing (either as their current accounts or as a "new" user). Michepman (talk) 01:24, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support. Seems pretty straightforward. Hopefully, an admin will close this soon. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 22:58, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
Possibly relevant
From te:వాడుకరి_చర్చ:JzG:
report vandalist ..... sockpuppets user Modern_Sciences
Please let Wikipedia managers know. This person is accustomed to importing raw and false information into articles. And on several wikis, it has had a history of restricted and unrestricted access and has repeatedly violated access now. Unfortunately, because of Pan-Armenian tendencies, there is a lot of misinformation in the articles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Modern_Sciences
long term abuse multi account :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Modern_Sciences
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Blackorwhite
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Europe2009
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Luckie_Luke
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/World_Cup_2010
he is an Iranian Armenians and have many edits in persian, english, armenian and arabic .
He has been blocked numerous times for violating the law on Persian Wikipedia. It has also been blocked on endless in English and Arabic Wikipedia, but has broken the rules by creating multiple accounts. He receives extensive support from his friends at local wikis for circumventing access. This user will surely have many other accounts in Armenian and English and persian languages that require more careful inspection.All accounts require a global lock to prevent excessive sabotage. I guess he has at least ten other accounts. I think an LWCU would be required as well.
Thanks.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by JzG (talk • contribs) 17:40, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks JzG. How long ago was this? The link above does not work. Koopinator, since you are much more familiar with Amirhosein Izadi's fake articles, would you say "Pan-Armenian tendencies" at all fits what he is trying to do? -Crossroads- (talk) 08:09, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Amirhosein Izadi never edited anything regarding Armenia. Mainly Iranian history & Iranian rock-related hoaxes. Koopinator (talk) 12:41, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Crossroads, oops, soz. https://te.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%B0%B5%E0%B0%BE%E0%B0%A1%E0%B1%81%E0%B0%95%E0%B0%B0%E0%B0%BF_%E0%B0%9A%E0%B0%B0%E0%B1%8D%E0%B0%9A:JzG - my user page on teWP. I know Telugu not Farsi, but the timing was a coincidence.
- Timestamp is 2020-01-14T14:07:34 and reporting account is "te:user:Khaskabul". Guy (help!) 08:57, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- That is te:User talk:JzG and the post was made by a now-locked user. That makes it highly suspect although even a globally locked user might occasionally be correct. Johnuniq (talk) 09:07, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- I now got this message on my talk page at Wikiquote (of all places). Most likely, the globally locked user/socker who evidently contacted me is in the wrong. However, one thing that is kind of odd is the fact that Modern Sciences (one account they are accusing) is blocked indefinitely here on en-wiki, but has a whopping 344,000 edits at fa-wiki. [8] They are also blocked indefinitely at lrc-wiki (whatever that is; looks to have Farsi/Arabic-like script), and after only 2 edits. Here on their talk page at en-wiki, Number 57 accused them of a pro-Armenian POV. Those accounts listed above with Modern Sciences (Blackorwhite etc.) look like they could all be the same person. There is a possibility of some shenanigans or nationalist POV pushing on the other side here as well. CC: JzG, Johnuniq, Koopinator - in case this is of use. -Crossroads- (talk) 04:21, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- The user posted what appears to be the same at de:User talk:JzG. I haven't looked yet. Johnuniq (talk) 04:31, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- I now got this message on my talk page at Wikiquote (of all places). Most likely, the globally locked user/socker who evidently contacted me is in the wrong. However, one thing that is kind of odd is the fact that Modern Sciences (one account they are accusing) is blocked indefinitely here on en-wiki, but has a whopping 344,000 edits at fa-wiki. [8] They are also blocked indefinitely at lrc-wiki (whatever that is; looks to have Farsi/Arabic-like script), and after only 2 edits. Here on their talk page at en-wiki, Number 57 accused them of a pro-Armenian POV. Those accounts listed above with Modern Sciences (Blackorwhite etc.) look like they could all be the same person. There is a possibility of some shenanigans or nationalist POV pushing on the other side here as well. CC: JzG, Johnuniq, Koopinator - in case this is of use. -Crossroads- (talk) 04:21, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- That is te:User talk:JzG and the post was made by a now-locked user. That makes it highly suspect although even a globally locked user might occasionally be correct. Johnuniq (talk) 09:07, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Hi. I think these aren't relevant, because I know how and why they have happened. User:Miiquoit is a sock of User:Rowingasia. I reported this at fawiki, and CheckUser evidence confirmed that Miiquoit and User:Laxesuomex were tied to each other, but Rowingasia has no action in past 3 months and therefore, we couldn't technically tie it to other accounts. However, these two account are now blocked indefinitely per WP:DUCK. I also requested for a global lock and login.wikimedia ("global") CheckUser at Meta, that resulted in globally locking ~50 socks, including User:Rowingasia2. The user who wrote this at JzG's talk page, User:Khaskabul, has been locked globally as well for the same reason. This probably dates back to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Rowingasia, but it has been discussed if these are related to User:پارسا آملی or not. Ahmadtalk 06:38, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
I reverted the edit on de. It needs rev del, at least.04:46, 20 January 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deepfriedokra (talk • contribs)
Allegations of English-Farsi cross-Wiki trolling
There are now three in this thread:
- Amirhosein Izadi and Amir.85, the main topic
- Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Chyah and its Farsi equivalent fa:رده:سوءاستفادهکنندگان از حسابهای کاربری زاپاس/Sonia Sevilla.
- User:Modern Sciences and alleged family
(2) can be taken as proved on both WPs by similar-fact and WP:CheckUser evidence.
I have suggested that (1) and (2) may be connected. This could only be confirmed or denied by new evidence sufficient to justify a CU investigation.
(3) The other two seem to be active solely in English and Farsi WPs. This one is said to have been active in Arabic and Armenian WPs also. User:Modern Sciences (who was WP:INDEFfed in February 2018) claimed to have been a native Georgian speaker and to have only limited proficiency in Farsi. At first sight, all that evidence suggests no connection with the other two. Narky Blert (talk) 23:31, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
Nocturnalnow violation of topic ban?
- note: I started this as a new section after the two comments immediate below were made, as the subject has changed since closing the above discussion. --Jayron32 17:45, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
Isn't Nocturnalnow still topic-banned from American Politics after 1932? 92.19.29.51 (talk) 17:37, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- That should be discussed. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:40, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- I would agree that the George W. Bush administration occurred in the United States and after 1932, and that Nocturnalnow did try to add material to an article about that topic. --Jayron32 17:49, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Jayron32, what's the proper protocol for handling the transgression like this? I am an administrator, but I do not administrate within post 1932 US politics due to my own personal biases, save for cases of obvious vandalism, restricting myself to it serving as an editor in that area. And, as you can see from the edit summary, I objected based on policy. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:55, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- My protocol is to first assess if the person in question intends to abide by their editing restrictions or not. People do sometimes forget that they have editing restrictions or may be unaware of the exact nature of them, especially after 5 years, which is about how long this one is. My usual protocol is if the person in question immediately agrees to desist and recognizes that they were in error, we take it as a "no harm/no foul" event, and we all go on with our lives. If the person in question refuses to disengage and/or continues to protest that they aren't bound by their topic ban, some additional help in remembering the nature of that ban may be useful. --Jayron32 18:38, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- I did not realize the info about Wesley Clark's conversations with a military general at the Pentagon amounts to post 1932 politics? Please explain if you don't mind. Nocturnalnow (talk) 22:04, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- My protocol is to first assess if the person in question intends to abide by their editing restrictions or not. People do sometimes forget that they have editing restrictions or may be unaware of the exact nature of them, especially after 5 years, which is about how long this one is. My usual protocol is if the person in question immediately agrees to desist and recognizes that they were in error, we take it as a "no harm/no foul" event, and we all go on with our lives. If the person in question refuses to disengage and/or continues to protest that they aren't bound by their topic ban, some additional help in remembering the nature of that ban may be useful. --Jayron32 18:38, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Jayron32, what's the proper protocol for handling the transgression like this? I am an administrator, but I do not administrate within post 1932 US politics due to my own personal biases, save for cases of obvious vandalism, restricting myself to it serving as an editor in that area. And, as you can see from the edit summary, I objected based on policy. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:55, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Oops, I see I myself made a political connection with my subtitle. You're right, I'm wrong. Apologies to all. I immediately agree to desist and this transgression was in error. Best wishes. Nocturnalnow (talk) 22:10, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Nocturnalnow, I'm not sure how "Clark claimed Bush planned to take out seven countries" (paraphrase of the edit) is not post 1932 politics. I didn't know about your editing restriction when I responded to you on the article talk page, and my comment there suggested that it made more sense in a article on Bush foreign policy. Schazjmd (talk) 22:11, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- Nocturnalnow Could you speak about your recent edits to: Christopher Steele, Bruce Ohr, Stefan Halper, Hunter Biden, et al. You've made many edits to these pages and they seem all very related to post 1932 politics. // Timothy::talk 22:52, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
- I have the same opinion as many in the intelligence community which is that Steele is about national security and not politics, Ohr is about the FBI, not politics, Halper is about the FBI and national security and not politics and Hunter is about normal business activities and not politics.
- Now the conspiracy theorists with the tin foil hats try to link all these stories to some sort of "deep state" manipulating political events, but I don't think you are siding with those conspiracy nuts, are you? Nocturnalnow (talk) 01:14, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Sure, the need to defeat someone's presidential bid is only about national security and politics doesn't come into play in any way. Edit: Looking at the history of your topic ban, and rereading your comment, I wonder if you're trying to make some lame point. Except you've missed the fact that most of us are able to appreciate the interplay of politics with other stuff. For example, it's perfectly possible for someone's motivations to have been solely about 'national security', while what they're trying to do definitely involves US politics. Hence also why someone like me with strongly negative views of Trump and fairly negative views of Bush can still safely say both of those edits clearly related to post 1932 US politics. Nil Einne (talk) 09:28, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Nocturnalnow's edits are clear-cut violations of their topic ban, and their argument that they're talking about intelligence rather than politics in a topic that is radioactive with political manipulation is disingenuous. I also note this edit [9], in which Nocturnalnow removed Deepfriedokra's warning on their talkpage as a "personal attack," which is nonsense, but indicative of somebody who isn't prepared to think objectively about their conduct. I recommend a block, this has gone beyond a one-off topic ban violation. I'm not going to do it, because I don't have the time today for the inevitable follow-up discussions, but this is a textbook example of boundary-pushing that has gotten way out of hand. Acroterion (talk) 13:19, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- So Nocturnalnow is Tbanned from US politics; makes a bunch of edits to US security articles; says security is nothing to do with politics; implicitly calls those who disagree
conspiracy theorists with the tin foil hats
; wants to appeal the tban anyway; and does so by calling it anobviously wrongful ban in the first place
, as well asstupid
andidiotic
.Gotta love respect for community norms. ——SN54129 13:48, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- So Nocturnalnow is Tbanned from US politics; makes a bunch of edits to US security articles; says security is nothing to do with politics; implicitly calls those who disagree
- Nocturnalnow's edits are clear-cut violations of their topic ban, and their argument that they're talking about intelligence rather than politics in a topic that is radioactive with political manipulation is disingenuous. I also note this edit [9], in which Nocturnalnow removed Deepfriedokra's warning on their talkpage as a "personal attack," which is nonsense, but indicative of somebody who isn't prepared to think objectively about their conduct. I recommend a block, this has gone beyond a one-off topic ban violation. I'm not going to do it, because I don't have the time today for the inevitable follow-up discussions, but this is a textbook example of boundary-pushing that has gotten way out of hand. Acroterion (talk) 13:19, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Sure, the need to defeat someone's presidential bid is only about national security and politics doesn't come into play in any way. Edit: Looking at the history of your topic ban, and rereading your comment, I wonder if you're trying to make some lame point. Except you've missed the fact that most of us are able to appreciate the interplay of politics with other stuff. For example, it's perfectly possible for someone's motivations to have been solely about 'national security', while what they're trying to do definitely involves US politics. Hence also why someone like me with strongly negative views of Trump and fairly negative views of Bush can still safely say both of those edits clearly related to post 1932 US politics. Nil Einne (talk) 09:28, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
Can almost everything be linked to American politics?
I'd also like to appeal my topic ban, which I accepted simply out of respect for the system. It was an obviously wrongful ban in the first place. Perhaps someone can tell me on my talk page how to appeal such a stupid ban with such an idiotic and Kafkaesque spirit and non-definition. Nocturnalnow (talk) 01:23, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Jayron32, isn't this pretty much a textbook example of what you discussed above? John from Idegon (talk) 03:18, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- I have no intention of either blocking Nocturnalnow nor raising any objection should anyone else block them. --Jayron32 04:52, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Nocturnalnow: It is always a poor idea to object to the topic ban right after you have violated it. I would recommend that you must move far away from this thread as well as this particular topic and instead work on subjects such as Reality Italy, Moses, Diadema, etc. for next 6 months before appealing the topic ban because right now you are only getting closer to an indef block. Aman Kumar Goel(Talk) 06:21, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- I have no intention of either blocking Nocturnalnow nor raising any objection should anyone else block them. --Jayron32 04:52, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Welp. Mostly it's those matters related to political strife made right here in the good ol' USA. And therefore to government agencies, politicians, and others engaged in said strife.-- Deepfriedokra 07:25, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Oh, and those who have been weaponized in said strife. I think that covers everyone named above.-- Deepfriedokra 07:27, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Each one of the articles listed above mentions connections of one sort or another with the Trump administration in the lead. You can say that they are primarily about something else, but to argue that they aren't about US politics at all seems futile. We have a load of articles that don't mention Trump, or US politics, at all. Those are the ones you should be editing until you get your Tban overturned. GirthSummit (blether) 07:31, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- I wouldn't recommend you appeal your topic ban if you've just violated it by getting involved in something which mentioned the purported foreign policy plans of a US president [10]. And you violated again by making another edit which explicitly mentioned the current US president [11] and in a very weird way. And in fact didn't even only mention Trump but mentioned the need to "defeat" him, and I think we can be confident this referring to the need to defeat him in the game of tiddly winks. I mean heck, it's easy to see without needing to visit the source that the NYT themselves considered it a part of politics. I don't know why you were even topic banned, but the fact you don't seem to appreciate these related to post 1932 US politics is enough to make me think your editing in the area must be terrible. Nil Einne (talk) 08:51, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- What Nil Einne said. I'm for closing this if you understand that this was a violation and undertake not to do it again, but otherwise I think you're likely to end up blocked. Guy (help!) 16:16, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, this message from User:Deepfriedokra, while containing a kinda/sorta weird section title but not a single offensive letter in the paragraph below, was removed by User:Nocturnalnow as, if you can believe it, a "personal attack." This sort of editor is why they wrote WP:NOTHERE. 2600:1700:B7A1:9A30:B956:C2F2:1E1A:AA37 (talk) 18:32, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Well, that's interestingly ironic. as I voiced my concerns of user's incivility and personal attacks, and I rather think it proves my concerns are justified..-- Deepfriedokra 18:45, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
Which of their edits was not a violation of the topic ban?
Looking at the 100 most recent contributions by Nocturnalnow to articles or article talk pages, we have:
- 7 edits to Wesley Clark and its talk page, about "Outing Bush Administrations "taking down 7 countries" plan"
- 3 edits to Christopher Steele, with an edit summary like "Inspector General: "Steele had a “passionate” belief in the need to defeat Mr. Trump.""
- 17 edits to Bruce Ohr and its talk page, with lengthy posts[12] about Crossfire Hurricane (FBI investigation), the investigation of the Trump election and Russian interference
- 2 edits to Abu Zubaydah, which are more distant from the topic ban (though not really unrelated either, a Guantanamo bay detainee)
- 9 edits to Stefan Halper and its talkpage: edit summary "The New York Times reported that for Ronald Reagan's 1980 campaign, Halper was the "person in charge" of running a "highly secretive" operation to get inside information of the Carter Administration's foreign policy and pass it to the Reagan campaign" says it all
- dozens of edits to Hunter Biden and its talk page, rather clearly part of the topic ban: also three edits to closely related article BHR Partners
- 1 edit to Yanni, seems wholly unrelated to the topic ban
- 2 edits to John Solomon (political commentator), e.g. to the section "Pro-Donald Trump opinion pieces"
- 1 edit to Saugus High School (California), not part of the topic ban
- Loads of edits to Greta Thunberg and its talk page, most rather dubious and partisan, but not part of the topic ban.
Basically, from their last 50+ edits, i.e. from the last 2 months, 95% are violations of his topic ban. Instead of lifting it, perhaps it should be enforced? Fram (talk) 09:29, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Uhh, that appears to be mostly US politics related. Eostrix (talk) 09:58, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Funnily enough, Nocturnalnow even received a discretionary sanctions alert for post 1932 US politics, I think after a 1RR violation at Hunter Biden [13]. But they just posted those 2 comments then later removed the alert [14]. They are obviously entitled to remove it, but if they had a known topic ban it would make sense to seek clarification on why they were given an alert, since they were clearly not editing anything to do with post 1932 US politics. Or at least mention their topic ban meant the alert was pointless since they would never edit the area..... Their editing profile suggests either someone who has absolutely zero respect for their topic ban, or someone who simply forgot about it. Since it's fairly old, and they seem to have been fairly inactive for long stretches (only really editing Jimbo Wales's talk page), normally I'd suggest they simply forgot about it. And if that's the case, although it's an editor's responsibility to remember their restrictions, it'll be fine with letting them off with a warning. But their above comments seem to suggest they're willfully ignoring the topic ban. Or maybe someone who's understanding of it is so poor they lack the WP:competence to edit here. Nil Einne (talk) 13:46, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- It should be obvious that I have avoided and tried to avoid all of the many direct politicle articles like Clinton or Trump or OAC or Democrat Party, Republican Party, Bernie Sanders etc.etc. In terms of why I first was topic banned it happened in a similar pile-on back when I dared to inject some due but negative info about Huma Abedin (btw, would she still be considered politics??? i.e. could I edit her now?) and a ban re: Abedin was being considered here yet an Admin. decided instead to give me the Kafkaesque like ( really hard to know exactly what the limitations are ) post 1932 US politics ban...btw, have any of you really done a thought experiment about the appropriateness of such a ban in our project? A full blown time limited block would have been much more just.
- I have tried to stay completely away from USA politics which is why I limited myself to Jimbo's talk page but then some brand new editor complained about my edits there, even there, being against this ban. But I digress, even after coming back to regular articles I try to see where I can make, imo, obvious improvements and this case with Wesley Clark is an example wherein a featured article makes no reference...zero..to a matter the Subject put a lot of attention into bringing to the public's attention. This particular Blp is the one which, imo, needs the most improvement because to the millions of people/readers who are aware of Clark's assertions that within a month of 9/11 the Pentagon/Rumsfeld was planning to "take out 7 countries beginning with Iraq, then Syria, Libya, Lebanon, Somalia, Sudan and ending with Iran", the complete and baffling omission of Clark's lectures/whistleblowing even? about that plan would cause Readers to doubt the credibility and neutrality not only of Clark's Blp but of the encyclopedia as a whole. And the fact its a Featured article makes the omission even more bizarre. Nocturnalnow (talk) 15:13, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- You spend your time here pushing conspiracy theories and Qanon nuttery. I don't know why people have put up with it for so long. Bitter Oil (talk) 15:41, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Fram, the idea that Bruce Ohr might plausibly be unrelated to US politics is... creative. Guy (help!) 16:31, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Nocturnalnow: See above. The bulk of the text you have added to Wikipedia articles have been about American political topics. It doesn't matter in which articles you add such text, you're not allowed to have anything to do with the subject of American politics. It stretches the bounds of credibility that you assert that edits where you directly name and discuss American political figures, such as past and current American presidents, are not related to American politics, but on the off chance that you, in good faith, genuinely believed such edits to be outside the range of your topic ban, every one of the many people who have commented on this situation have now informed you that these indeed are part of your topic ban. You may assert that before this discussion you hadn't realized. You can now longer credibly assert that you still don't understand this. You have been adequately informed, and the expectation is that you either acknowledge that you have been told this information and agree to abide by your topic ban, and do so quickly and unambiguously, or it is quite likely you will be blocked. --Jayron32 16:34, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Jayron32:, ok, thanks for laying it out so clearly. Before this discussion I did believe that those topics I edited were outside the ban, but now, after this discussion, I do agree to abide by the ban unambiguously. Nocturnalnow (talk) 20:09, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Nocturnalnow: See above. The bulk of the text you have added to Wikipedia articles have been about American political topics. It doesn't matter in which articles you add such text, you're not allowed to have anything to do with the subject of American politics. It stretches the bounds of credibility that you assert that edits where you directly name and discuss American political figures, such as past and current American presidents, are not related to American politics, but on the off chance that you, in good faith, genuinely believed such edits to be outside the range of your topic ban, every one of the many people who have commented on this situation have now informed you that these indeed are part of your topic ban. You may assert that before this discussion you hadn't realized. You can now longer credibly assert that you still don't understand this. You have been adequately informed, and the expectation is that you either acknowledge that you have been told this information and agree to abide by your topic ban, and do so quickly and unambiguously, or it is quite likely you will be blocked. --Jayron32 16:34, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
Proposal
Options:
- Nocturnalnow is reminded that topic bans are broadly construed and that testing the limits of such bans is likely to lead to escalating blocks.
- Nocturnalnow is counselled to seek guidance before editing any article where there is doubt as to whether it may fall in scope of the topic ban or not.
- Nocturnalnow may appeal the topic ban in not less than three months.
- Nocturnalnow is blocked for one week for violation of the topic ban.
- Opinions
- 1, 2, 3 above. Guy (help!) 16:42, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support 1, 2, 3 per my comments in the previous sections,
neutral on 4 pending Nocturnalnow's forthcoming response.--Jayron32 16:44, 15 January 2020 (UTC) - 1, 2, 3 above. They haven't edited any articles since this point was raised here, so there's no immediate disruption - provided that remains the case, I'd be happy for us to hold off on 4, but if they edit again on this subject after this reminder an immediate block would be warranted. GirthSummit (blether) 17:08, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- 1,3,4 User should also be required to relate WP:NPA to own edits, while relating how civilly presented concerns over personal attacks are not, in fact, personal attacks.-- Deepfriedokra 18:54, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support 1, 2, 3. Per his statement above he understands the terms of his ban, so (for now) 4 isn't needed. - DoubleCross (talk) 14:36, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support 1, 2, 3 and oppose 4 Although I have some difficulty reconciling Nocturnalnow's statement that he believed the topics were outside his ban because he did not directly edit political articles; with his earlier statements where he appeared to be claiming that making an edit which directly mentioned one US president's alleged foreign policy goals, or an edit relating to the desire of someone to prevent another US president becoming president in the first place were somehow unrelated to politics; now that he's said he understands and will abide by the topic ban I'm not sure a short block will serve much purpose. And frankly I'd suggest a minimum of 6 months before an appeal. But I'm also fine just dropping this. Hopefully Nocturnalnow has gotten the message, if now, well it's their funeral. Nil Einne (talk) 16:22, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support 1, 2, 3 Doug Weller talk 15:28, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Personal attacks over greenhouse gas article
RE: GenSQuantum (talk · contribs):
Personal attacks:
Warning:
- 02:16, 16 January 2020 [17]
Personal attack:
- 05:17, 16 January 2020 [18]
Warning:
- 05:20, 16 January 2020 [19]
Personal attacks:
- 05:25, 16 January 2020 [20]
- 05:44, 16 January 2020 [21] --Dennis Bratland (talk) 06:06, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
Another personal attack [22] --Dennis Bratland (talk) 06:12, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- I'm shocked, shocked, to see a climate science denier hurling abuse around all over the place. I'm also going to make a surprised Pikachu face at my discovery that this user is pushing anti-science propaganda with dishonest edit summaries. WP:NOTHERE. Reyk YO! 08:51, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- I have edited the word used to describe me as (a climate denier) -GenSQuantum — Preceding unsigned comment added by GenSQuantum (talk • contribs) 13:13, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- The user now has a DS alert. I think there'd be a low bar to a TBAN if this resumes today. Guy (help!) 09:08, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- JzG, I think a block would be better here as the user has gotton more then one final warning, But lets see if this continues.LakesideMinersCome Talk To Me! 15:54, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- LakesideMiners, only 51 edits. Might be WP:NOTHERE, might just be someone who hasn't learned how it works yet. Guy (help!) 16:29, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- No further edits after posting here.-- Deepfriedokra 06:49, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Generally pointless TE
Can someone uninvolved please have a look at this, this and this (or indeed the rest of that recent talk history) and kindly suggest an attitude adjustment? There appears to be a pattern of pointless antagonism here. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 13:21, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- Also this. If someone could apply a quick cluebat to stop this nonsense that'd be great. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 17:22, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- There's a competence issue also, as the edits cited left paragraphs with ungrammatical mixed tense. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:05, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Additionally, words like "plonker" and "silly" clearly constitute a WP:PERSONAL attack. Even that aside, the user's editing pattern has been generally disruptive across other articles. What I have noticed with Roxy is that he (or she?) consistently engages in edit wars, (often with the help of his friend Guy Macon), refuses to discuss the issue (or any relevant issues, for that matter) when questioned, and instead insults the users with whom he disagrees. I have dealt with this user on more than a couple of occasions, and I must say that his editing significantly hindered real progress being made. If he doesn't show any signs of improvement, I suggest we do something about it - whether it be a 1RR restriction, a block (next time a similar issue inevitably arises), or anything else. O̲L̲D̲S̲T̲O̲N̲E̲J̅A̅M̅E̅S̅? 03:54, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- It is not reasonable for you to notice my comment at Roxy's talk then pile on here without mentioning that you have been indefinitely topic banned from creationism after many disputes with Roxy and other opponents of WP:FRINGE ideas (ANI permalink). Johnuniq (talk) 07:05, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Why is that not reasonable? I have had many problems with the user, which is why I want to do something about it. Seems pretty reasonable to me. Also, should I mention my topic ban in every comment that I make? Should I make it part of my signature? I don't really see how it's relevant here, given that the disputes that I had with Roxy that contributed to my topic ban were probably one of more minor disputes that I had with him, and they definitely weren't the first ones that I had with him. By the way, I am a WP:FRINGE opponent (including creationism opponent) as well, as you can see on my user page, so, once again, I don't really see how WP: FRINGE is relevant to the discussion. O̲L̲D̲S̲T̲O̲N̲E̲J̅A̅M̅E̅S̅? 13:34, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Why did I only receive a notification about this discussion two days after it started? Why didn't the OP notify me? -Roxy, the PROD. . wooF 08:46, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- It is not reasonable for you to notice my comment at Roxy's talk then pile on here without mentioning that you have been indefinitely topic banned from creationism after many disputes with Roxy and other opponents of WP:FRINGE ideas (ANI permalink). Johnuniq (talk) 07:05, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
WHEN YOU POSTTO AN/IDON'T FORGETTO NOTIFYBurma-shave --EEng 08:59, 18 January 2020 (UTC) (and Levivich and creffett)
- Note for future readers: the above originally read "WHEN YOU POST / TO AN/I / YOU HAVE TO TELL / THE OTHER GUY," thus the "guy" discussion below. creffett (talk) 23:50, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
@Thumperward: He was being kind to you. [23][24][25][26][27]. -Pudeo (talk) 16:50, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
Proposal (Banner)
This banner should be adopted to replace the current banner. It's eye wrenching catching and has high nostalgic value.-- Deepfriedokra 10:24, 18 January 2020 (UTC).*AS proposer.-- Deepfriedokra 10:24, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support. Humurous alternative (or default) templates would be a fantastic development; apart from UPEs, none of use are getting paid, so lets enjoy more. Britishfinance (talk) 11:52, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support - more likely to be noticed, read, followed, and remembered. – Levivich 14:20, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Comment - what if the person is not a "guy"? sadly, English stress patterns make this complicated, e.g.
when you post an incident / you have to tell / the defendant.
🌿 SashiRolls t · c 14:27, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- That would be someone like me. It always seems to be men who try to explain to me why it's okay for them to use "guys" to refer to me, somebody who is not a man. We have better terminology, although I admit the rhyme is catchy. -- a they/them | argue | contribs 21:17, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- I have zero issues being referred to as part of the collective "guys". Support silly banner. Natureium (talk) 22:44, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Once your case is AN/Ied \ be haste to tell \ the other side. 🌿 SashiRolls t · c 23:01, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- SashiRolls, Alfie, thanks to you both for pointing that out to me, I was going for the rhyme but hadn't considered that I was gendering the message (and I do come from areas where "guy" is colloquially used as a gender-neutral plural). I'll change it to the gender-neutral version I suggested below. creffett (talk) 23:39, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Comment WHEN YOU POST / TO AN/I / DON'T FORGET / TO NOTIFY ? Unfortunately loses the part about _who_ you have to notify... creffett (talk) 18:41, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- No, it's perfect. Truly, you are the poet laureate of Wikipedia. With luck we will reduce all policies and guidelines to Burma-Shave ads, limericks, haikus or (in the case of MOS and Arbcom cases, respectively) sonnets and epic poems. EEng 18:45, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support IF "guy" is changed to "person". Or "human", "lifeform", or "earthling" if you want to be quirky. (ETA) I just realized you're trying to rhyme. It didn't click because my brain pronounces "AN/I" as "annie".Schazjmd (talk) 22:59, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Place a post on AN/I
- Place a post for free
- Place a post on AN/I
- And (andand) you gotta post to notify me signed, Rosguill talk 00:56, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Rosguill, I should not have been taking a drink while reading that. (wiping off screen) (and now that song's earworming me)Schazjmd (talk) 01:01, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- This is all my fault [28]. I've crated a Frankenstein. EEng 01:31, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Rosguill, I should not have been taking a drink while reading that. (wiping off screen) (and now that song's earworming me)Schazjmd (talk) 01:01, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- As Tennnyson would have said it:
Theirs not to reason why, Theirs but to notify.
--T*U (talk) 04:28, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
89.200.15.69 / Eurocave
Original heading: "User: 89.200.15.69" ~ ToBeFree (talk) 17:11, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- 89.200.15.69 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) Personal attacks [[29]], removing closed discussion template at Talk:NikkieTutorials and continued disregard for MOS:GENDERID after recently receiving last warning. cave (talk) 17:05, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Hi Eurocave, thanks for opening an ANI report; I will now move the other user's complaint from WP:AIV here too.
Please have a look at your user talk page and reconsider one part of your complaint.(done) Thanks ~ ToBeFree (talk) 17:11, 17 January 2020 (UTC) (updated ~ ToBeFree (talk) 17:20, 17 January 2020 (UTC))- Thank you. cave (talk) 17:19, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- User is referring to a perceived 'personal attack' that only lasted for about one and a half minute before I removed it. There is no evidence that the user read it while it was still on my talkpage. No other edits where made during this one and a half minute.
- I was referring to the militant behavior and not the user themselves. I do not know what the verb is because English is not my native language. I removed it as soon as I realized that it I should not have made that edit. User forgot to link that edit. Anyway, my action does not change what user did. Neither does my action make the users actions less severe.
- User was already in an edit war with someone else when we collided. User was already repeatedly reverting the contents of a project talkpage. Refusing to participate in any conversation even after several requests on the users own talkpage. 89.200.15.69 (talk) 17:35, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- There has been no disregard for MOS:GENDERID by me. When I made my first edit I was not aware of that guideline. User just reverted mine and other peoples edits repeatedly until in one of these reverts the user pointed out the guideline. Had the user used the talkpage (rather than reverting the entire section multiple times, which constitutes vandalism) we would not have been in this situation. 89.200.15.69 (talk) 17:43, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- My reason for redacting Timmy's comment is that it deadnamed Nikkie. This information is sensitive and private and should not be published on Wikipedia, not even on a talk page. There was absolutely no point to including it, just like we shouldn't be including anybody else's poorly sourced medical histories. From the Talk page template: "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page". This is what I was trying to do and you kept reverting it. cave (talk) 23:02, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- There has been no disregard for MOS:GENDERID by me. When I made my first edit I was not aware of that guideline. User just reverted mine and other peoples edits repeatedly until in one of these reverts the user pointed out the guideline. Had the user used the talkpage (rather than reverting the entire section multiple times, which constitutes vandalism) we would not have been in this situation. 89.200.15.69 (talk) 17:43, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Hi Eurocave, thanks for opening an ANI report; I will now move the other user's complaint from WP:AIV here too.
Eurocave (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)Temporary cool down block requested. Eurocave keeps vandalising talk pages. Reverts an entire disucssion on Talk:NikkieTutorials multiple times in a row and then puts it all inside a closed template, so it cannot be read or edited anymore. Eurocave disregards people who try to reach consensus because Eurocave is offended by the discussion. Also vandalises the talk page of this IP adres. Continues after I have requested them to stop on their talkpage multiple times. Judging by their history, Eurocave talks through reverting rather than using a talk page. 89.200.15.69 (talk) 16:57, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
Quote:" Restoring talk page notices, even if they should not be removed, is not a listed exception to the three-revert rule."89.200.15.69 (talk) 18:46, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Eurocave, can you explain why you keep removing discussions and/or closing them down at the talk page in question? I am unclear where MOS:GENDERID has text that says that you should do this, and yet you keep citing it. You're going to need to explain yourself, as it is unclear why you keep doing so. --Jayron32 18:32, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Hello. I was struggling with a couple of users on NikkieTutorials' talk page. User Timmie1606 was active on the Dutch wikipedia, and after he tried to misgender Nikkie there and got a rebuttal that "it's best to follow the English Wikipedia example", he apparently took that as a cue to make an English wikipedia account solely for the purpose of attempting to get us to deadname Nikkie de Jager here. Another (anonymous IP user who insulted me) joined in and I have already given him 3 warnings for personal attacks and continued disruptive edits, as cited above in my complaint about him. I tried closing the discussion because it was not productive. These users just posted Nikkies alleged Deadname on the talk page and kept misgendering her, and didn't suggest any proposals for change that were remotely within Wikipedia's guidelines. In the end oversight ended up closing the discussion, so it turns out it was the correct call to make, however the IP user kept reversing my closure. Now the IP user seems to be currently in the process of Forum shopping as well. Meanwhile all this sensitive information remains on Nikkie's talk page and I don't know what to do about it. From the Talk page template: "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page". This is what I was doing by removing, and then later trying to hide a message that included Nikkie's alleged, poorly sourced birthname. I still maintain that it is in violation of Wikipedia's policy, as it is "contentious material about a living person", it shouldn't be there. cave (talk) 23:16, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- Some of these topics are already under discretionary sanctions. If someone is disruptive on a BLP, warn them via
{{subst:alert|blp}}
. If they're being disruptive about gender-related issues, you can also warn them of Gamergate discretionary sanctions via{{subst:alert|gg}}
. If the disruption continues, report them to arbitration enforcement. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 14:47, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Some of these topics are already under discretionary sanctions. If someone is disruptive on a BLP, warn them via
- Hello. I was struggling with a couple of users on NikkieTutorials' talk page. User Timmie1606 was active on the Dutch wikipedia, and after he tried to misgender Nikkie there and got a rebuttal that "it's best to follow the English Wikipedia example", he apparently took that as a cue to make an English wikipedia account solely for the purpose of attempting to get us to deadname Nikkie de Jager here. Another (anonymous IP user who insulted me) joined in and I have already given him 3 warnings for personal attacks and continued disruptive edits, as cited above in my complaint about him. I tried closing the discussion because it was not productive. These users just posted Nikkies alleged Deadname on the talk page and kept misgendering her, and didn't suggest any proposals for change that were remotely within Wikipedia's guidelines. In the end oversight ended up closing the discussion, so it turns out it was the correct call to make, however the IP user kept reversing my closure. Now the IP user seems to be currently in the process of Forum shopping as well. Meanwhile all this sensitive information remains on Nikkie's talk page and I don't know what to do about it. From the Talk page template: "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page". This is what I was doing by removing, and then later trying to hide a message that included Nikkie's alleged, poorly sourced birthname. I still maintain that it is in violation of Wikipedia's policy, as it is "contentious material about a living person", it shouldn't be there. cave (talk) 23:16, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
I am not sure why the IP wasn't blocked on the spot for this edit, or this subsequent one. Drmies (talk) 17:43, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Drmies, wait. so for stuff like that, I can report right to AIV? And IP seems to be ranged blocked now. LakesideMinersCome Talk To Me! 16:39, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- LakesideMiners, as far as I'm concerned, yes--this was pretty blatant and I am sure most admins would take it seriously. Yes, that range is now blocked and I'd LOVE to know what lies behind it. Perhaps Favonian can share some relevant information, or transmit the SuperSecretFiles via carrier pigeon. Drmies (talk) 17:37, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Favonian, I'll be tagging a bunch of accounts shortly. Thanks. Thanks also to Materialscientist. LakesideMiners, we are dealing with a simple troll, a vandal making tons of nonsense edits, and every now and then, I suppose, they want to be taken seriously and troll in a more serious manner. Drmies (talk) 17:45, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Drmies The range block and its predecessor have nothing to do with the subject of this discussion. Among the denizens of the range is a person who carries Persian patriotism to absurd heights by, for instance, hijacking the Kingdom of Prussia and the Flag of Hungary. Favonian (talk) 18:09, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Drmies, something a bit odd, this Special:Contributions/GibberFishing account was made and only respond to a comment I made on the IPs question on the MOS talk page. I forget what made me say the issue seems to be resolved, was resolved(as I said that BEFORE the IP was blocked), but seems a little bit odd. I'm still waking up a bit so I may not be thinking straight, but somthing seems odd. If I forgot anything. let me know. LakesideMinersCome Talk To Me! 18:19, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
User editing from a U.S. government office, with a long term disruptive agenda
- 155.19.91.37 (talk · contribs)
WP:NOTHERE, per [30]; [31]; [32]; [33]; [34]; [35]; [36]; [37]; [38]; [39]; [40]; [41] and associated edits to Nathan Phillips (activist). Primarily disruptive, trolling and using Wikipedia as a personal soapbox. Perhaps the Defense Department should know if this is the activity of one of its employees. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 17:30, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- If we do block them, WP:SIP probably needs to be followed. The DOD is not specifically listed there, but I would be cautious and notify WMF as described there. --Jayron32 19:15, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- As an aside, only the first two ranges listed for the U.S. House and the range for the U.S. Senate are tagged with class mw-tag-congressedits on contrib lists. The other ranges listed at WP:SIP have markup no different than any other IP address. Other than having a browser user script tag them (is there one?), where should I go to suggest expanding the tagging to these other ranges? I'd like to be able to style these so I notice them in histories/contribs. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 03:38, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- I agree. Even if they aren't explicitly in the list of sensitive IP addresses, if we believe that the IP address or range is just as sensitive as others listed in the table (or if we believe that they even might be), we should follow the guidelines and procedures as if they were. It's much better to be safe than to be sorry. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 05:22, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- I've left a custom warning message on this IP user's talk page (diff, permalink). If further disruption occurs from this IP address, we should treat them like we would any other user. If no admin is willing to do so, I will - just message me and let me know. I've done it before under circumstances that warranted it, and I'm not afraid to do it again. ;-) ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 05:30, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Oshwah: WP:DYK DoD has a lot of IP addresses? I've submitted an edit request for some DoD IPv4 addresses to be added (specifically, the 218,103,808 from their 13 /8 blocks plus the /21 this was from). They own a lot more too, just too scattered about for me to bother finding them (Apparently DoD owns 20% of all IPv4 addresses, but this is only about 5%.) Mdaniels5757 (talk) 04:07, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- Mdaniels5757 - Good call; thank you for doing that. :-) ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 04:19, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- Oshwah: WP:DYK DoD has a lot of IP addresses? I've submitted an edit request for some DoD IPv4 addresses to be added (specifically, the 218,103,808 from their 13 /8 blocks plus the /21 this was from). They own a lot more too, just too scattered about for me to bother finding them (Apparently DoD owns 20% of all IPv4 addresses, but this is only about 5%.) Mdaniels5757 (talk) 04:07, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
The person, or persons, keen to edit Shamsheer Vayalil
I am one of several editors who'd never heard of the name Shamsheer Vayalil until begged to help in countering this or that claimed injustice in its editing. (For the plea I received, see User talk:Hoary#Help.) The article is the obsession of a person, with or without his brother, who uses Bharti Airtel IP addresses that geolocate to Patna, Bihar, and also of User:Ankitroy1997, who has implausibly presented himself as a different person. These pleas for assistance, accusations of unfairness, etc, have gone on for some time and have been very tiresome; but they have hardly been actionable. Recently, however, this person has become more agitated, and offensive (example).
Although I don't consider myself involved (other than as a bemused/despairing onlooker and occasional voice of what I think is reason), others may disagree. And so I turn this matter over to one or more other admins. Do look through Talk:Shamsheer Vayalil and User talk:AlanM1. -- Hoary (talk) 02:10, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks to Hoary for filing this. Note that the article's talk page has an archive, too, where they've been beating the same minutiae to death since June. The relevant IP addresses are primarily 223.230.128.0/18, though there is some involvement from
106.207.32.0/18106.207.32.0/19. The 223 range has primarily only one other editor in it (contributing to Indian politics), so a block there might be reasonable. The 106 has a lot more. I'd also suggest a CU, given the overlap between Ankitroy1997 and the IP (careful examination of their edits makes it clear that they are probably either the same person or co-ordinate with each other off-wiki, pretending to be strangers here). Every time an editor gets tired of them, they move on to drag another into this time sink (as recently as today), conveniently not mentioning the wreckage left behind on the talk page in the hopes that the user won't look and they'll just get what they want. I even tried compromising on something that is a close call, and it didn't help. I've asked them to stay off my user and talk pages after today's attacks. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 03:24, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
::Not interested in biased wikipedia. I have seen all the rules and regulations which are only for Shamsheer Vayalil article and not for others. I don't want to contribute anything here.
Before leaving I'll point out some of your statement:
Eagleash: His one of the kind statement: Some of the articles are only perfect on wikipedia. Which are these "some"? Are they Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Jimmy Wales?
AlanM1: His statement: Removing degrees from bio infobox is not correct because infobox without degrees is incorrect. For which article it's incorrect? Is that Jimmy Wales article or Mark Zuckerberg article?
So, I don't want to contribute to that place where there is biased nature. Keep your wikipedia with you. Ankitroy1997 (talk) 05:42, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Neither of those are quotes or even correct interpretations of our comments, nor is there any rational reason we would have a bias against a respected, successful doctor and wealthy businessman or Indians in general (witness the amount of work I do fixing Indian subject articles while you're picking at nits). —[AlanM1(talk)]— 06:01, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
AlanM1 Please don't show baby tantrums. I have read your every explanation or reason which you gave after reverting my edits which shows that you show biased nature. Degrees should not be removed from Jimmy Wales article but it can be removed from Shamsheer Vayalil article. Carefully read your reason which you gave after reverting my edit in Jimmy Wales article. I'll definitely leave wikipedia because it's the place where anyone can learn how to become biased. Ankitroy1997 (talk) 07:27, 18 January 2020 (UTC)- @Ankitroy1997: I did not remove degrees from the article. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 13:44, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you to all editors who showed a lesson in WP:Civility. These are the
99100 IP addresses I collected until now, after I was similarly contacted on my talk page. My match was with User:Royankitkumar, but I see that user is blocked too now. Thank you for the intervention. Wakari07 (talk) 23:23, 18 January 2020 (UTC)- Wakari07, we must be talking about different people. I haven't sampled any of your collected IP addresses, but are you saying that they appear to be block evasions by User:Royankitkumar? I'm new to this article Shamsheer Vayalil and that's probably why Royankitkumar is a new name to me. I have looked at half a dozen of Royankitkumar's edits. Every one was simple vandalism. The edits are utterly unlike the edits of the IPs I had/have in mind, or those of User:Ankitroy1997. The latter edits aim to present the biographee in the best possible light. (This aim may be honourable; it's the demands, accusations and miscellaneous childishness that are problematic.) -- Hoary (talk) 13:10, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Hoary: There was a gap in time of almost a year, and then a mis-formatted unblock request in November 2019 that may explain this. I've also corrected the 106 range above for the record (I goofed the subnet). —[AlanM1(talk)]— 15:22, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Ankitroy1997 has been confirmed by CheckUser as a sock puppet of Royankitkumar. I'm striking through their edits. Doug Weller talk 15:27, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Doug Weller, there were two comments above by Ankitroy1997; you struck through one and I have now struck through the other. -- Hoary (talk) 23:14, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- This is all very odd. If Ankitroy1997 is a sock of blocked Royankitkumar, then of course this is very wrong of Royankitkumar, whose activities should be limited to appealing for the end of his block. Yet when Royankitkumar attempted to do just that, he messed up his own attempt. And we know that he did this, thanks to mention above of "a mis-formatted unblock request". Of course what he really ought to do is carefully reread the instructions and make a new attempt; but we all know from experience that plenty of people can't/won't do this. Anyway, I've resuscitated his request. This says in part: Few months earlier I was new to wikipedia I didn't know that how it works,in that duration of time I made various mistakes which lead to vandalism but my intention was not to vandalise wikipedia. If vandalizing truly wasn't the intention, then I diagnose utter incompetence. However, CU says that Ankitroy1997 and Royankitkumar are the same; and if for a moment I put aside other problems (petulance, time-wasting, block evasion....), I have to concede that Ankitroy1997 is neither a vandal nor grossly incompetent. -- Hoary (talk) 00:10, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Yamla has already declined the appeal, and I certainly have no objection to that. -- Hoary (talk) 00:14, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Ankitroy1997 has been confirmed by CheckUser as a sock puppet of Royankitkumar. I'm striking through their edits. Doug Weller talk 15:27, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Hoary: There was a gap in time of almost a year, and then a mis-formatted unblock request in November 2019 that may explain this. I've also corrected the 106 range above for the record (I goofed the subnet). —[AlanM1(talk)]— 15:22, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Wakari07, we must be talking about different people. I haven't sampled any of your collected IP addresses, but are you saying that they appear to be block evasions by User:Royankitkumar? I'm new to this article Shamsheer Vayalil and that's probably why Royankitkumar is a new name to me. I have looked at half a dozen of Royankitkumar's edits. Every one was simple vandalism. The edits are utterly unlike the edits of the IPs I had/have in mind, or those of User:Ankitroy1997. The latter edits aim to present the biographee in the best possible light. (This aim may be honourable; it's the demands, accusations and miscellaneous childishness that are problematic.) -- Hoary (talk) 13:10, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
79.33.121.131
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79.33.121.131 (talk · contribs) Can an admin please redact the edit summary from the first edit made by IP 79.33.121.131 per WP:CRD#2. Pkbwcgs (talk) 12:23, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for reporting, Pkbwcgs, but I really don't think it matters. Another admin may feel differently. Bishonen | talk 14:53, 18 January 2020 (UTC).
- That's "ordinary" incivility. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:23, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Pkbwcgs: and others, just for future reference, this is WP:LTA/SBT. They've been over-excited recently. Please have a read. -- zzuuzz (talk) 23:04, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
Elainasla (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
Hello, I think this is the appropriate place to post this, but I apologise if I'm mistaken. This user continually goes against several guidelines: they make many edits to articles in quick succession clogging up article histories, mark all their edits m when many clearly aren't, and extremely rarely provide edit summaries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Elainasla
An example of all three of these would be their 12 edits to Medical Police in the space of 15 minutes on 11 Jan.
They also rarely engage with people who have posted about such issues on their talk page, including me, as evidenced here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Elainasla#January_2019
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Elainasla#February_2019
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Elainasla#February_2019_2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Elainasla#'Show_preview'_button
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Elainasla#Edit_summaries
- 115.70.7.33 (talk) 06:30, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Their talk page is disturbing. At the least I'd suggest a ban might be appropriate to stop them from uploading non-free images. And the marking edits as minor despite warnings is unacceptable. Doug Weller talk 08:41, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- The user appears to have undertaken 5 reverts on 14 January on page: Medical Police -- Sirfurboy (talk) 10:43, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- I was involved in some of their revert activity on that page, of which I'm the creator. They falsely claimed the preferred upload format for images was PNG (it's JPEG) and edit warred with me over the cover image. They are fairly disruptive, in my experience. Timdorr (talk) 21:34, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked indefinitely for long-time disruptive editing and lack of communication. Any admin is encouraged to unblock if the user responds to the block and undertakes a) to stop uploading non-free images and b) to respond to posts on their talkpage from now on. Bishonen | talk 21:45, 19 January 2020 (UTC).
User:ClueBot NG is malfunctioning
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have a problem with this bot. The bot’s description says that it is used to make routine and tedious edits that would be difficult for a person to take the time to do. However, when I edited content on a Wikipedia page for Tereq Salahi, when the page even has a alert saying that the neutrality of the page is questioned), the bot automatically removed it within a few seconds despite it not being something of the nature of extremely tedious editing we would expect a bit to do (like verifying a date or correct punctuation).
The bot left a message on my page saying it reverted the edit but did not provide an explanation as to why. Although in the edit summary it claimed that my post was vandalism. It wouldn’t be appropriate to classify my content as vandalism because my content is completely in line with the undisputed Wikipedia article covering the 2009 breach that this person was involved in.
I’m suspicious that this bot is actually working on behalf of the subject of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Simult2018 (talk • contribs) 07:32, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Simult2018: Your edit utilized loaded words and was very unencyclopedically negative in nature. ClueBot NG specializes in undoing things it deems to be vandalism (we have other bots that do things like what you are thinking about) - it is not malfunctioning. Although you may not have intended to vandalize, the bot decided that your edit had several characteristics of vandalism, and reverted you. Although I will not say much more, I can assure you that ClueBot is not a paid editor for Mr. Salahi. -- a lad insane (Channel 2) 07:38, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Indeed, @Simult2018:, that was hardly WP:NPOV. The bot is functionng to keep Wikipedia neutral. Especially on a living person-- Deepfriedokra 07:43, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Now on the other hand, this looks like conflated, inflated, and overrated WP:ARTSPAM, if anyone not as deletionist as I could look at it.-- Deepfriedokra 07:50, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Reply: My edit was not unencyclopedic. It was in line with the content on the Wikipedia article describing the breach that this person was involved in. It wasn’t loaded. It wasn’t particularly negative although it was factual. According to Wikipedia, this person was involved in the security breach. Whether that was good or bad was not something I alluded to. Only to mention they were involved. If there truly was a problem, why not indicate how to make the correct content fall within Wikipedia guidelines rather than just throwing stones? With certainty, what is there currently is not correct.
Also, you never spoke to the fact that this bot claims to do routine tedious edits. Deciding that something is “loaded” or “negative e” is not a routine edit.viewer. I never said that it was bad that they were involved in the breach. It’s 100% factual and not negative. Do we need to go to the 2009 page covering the breach and remove the facts posted there?
I suspect both of the people that posted these replies are actually involved with the bot. Why does this bot describe itself is making routine edits when it does much more? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Simult2018 (talk • contribs) 07:55, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Note to those unaware of the history here: Probably more than half the edits to Tareq Salahi are by whichever paid-editing firm he happens to be hiring to whitewash it at any given time, and much of the remainder constitutes of his opponents inserting potential libel. Because one of the people who used to regularly point this out publicly that this page is a BLP trainwreck was some guy called "Jimmy Wales", it's not unusual for people wanting to practice their POV-pushing-detection-skills to head straight for this page.
- Simult2018, I appreciate you're frustrated, but you're starting to throw around ridiculous accusations. I strongly recommend familiarising yourself with this core and non-negotiable Wikipedia policy before you go any further. ‑ Iridescent 08:00, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
(edit conflict)::Oh dear. Do please read and WP:aspersions and WP:AGF. I now have my own suspicions, but it's poor form for an admin to abandon AGF at this point, so I will bite my tongue. Never heard of the subject of the article before, and have no interest in them at all. There are over 5,000,000 articles on Wikipedia. What are the odds? And I hope you do not continue to jump to unwarranted conclusions whenever anyone contradicts you or offers an alternative to your viewpoint. -- Deepfriedokra 08:04, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, @Iridescent:. Any hope of sending this dumpster fire to WP:AfD. It s a pit.08:06, 19 January 2020 (UTC)-- Deepfriedokra
- It's been tried and the WP:ARS-holes all came out of the woodwork to derail it. That was a decade ago and it might be worth trying again. ‑ Iridescent 08:11, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- GAd. And Gah. I don't AfD anymore. Had forgotten about them. heads up. Simult2018 is seeking answers elsewhere.-- Deepfriedokra 08:36, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- It's been tried and the WP:ARS-holes all came out of the woodwork to derail it. That was a decade ago and it might be worth trying again. ‑ Iridescent 08:11, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, @Iridescent:. Any hope of sending this dumpster fire to WP:AfD. It s a pit.08:06, 19 January 2020 (UTC)-- Deepfriedokra
- The original post is obviously misguided but another point about the edit in question is that is marked minor but introduced text ("infiltrating a White House state dinner as an uninvited guest") that is most definitely not minor. Johnuniq (talk) 09:15, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Reply: Folks I propose that perhaps some of the things I have said since the deletion of my edit were not all correct. We will never know. It’s not unreasonable to think that pr companies may make bots. However, I think much my edit was correct, was not libelous but factual (it was the same facts as in the page covering the incident), and corrected an obvious distortion in the article. I agree with the comments that the page of this user likely should be deleted. I do t think the user is a public figure enough so as to warrant a page, especially when it seems to have been written by him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Simult2018 (talk • contribs) 09:29, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- I don't entirely understand what you mean by "we will never know" but to be clear, the bot and its operators are very well known here. I wouldn't be surprised if someone here has even met one of the operators in person. There is absolutely no question that it is not written by companies for white-washing, nor that it serves a very useful purpose. This is not a case of "we will never know". It's not perfect of course, but frankly I agree with others that you case does not illustrate an example of where it made a mistake. And to be clear, whatever else, it was completely inappropriate for you to mark your edit as minor. Please do not misuse the minor tag again. Nil Einne (talk) 10:19, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
AfD canvassing
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This article was created by the inventor of the term. It has three Keep !votes: one is his, the other two are people he canvassed off-wiki, neither of whom has previously contributed to Wikipedia. Since I don't do much in this area I don't know what our current approach is to canvassed AfDs, whether we protect at some level or just tag them with the canvassing notice of joy. Can anyone advise please? Guy (help!) 09:35, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- I added "notvote".-- Deepfriedokra 09:39, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Deepfriedokra, that was the one I was looking for, thanks. Guy (help!) 10:01, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Disruptive editor - Kye233
D'okra to the rescue. (non-admin closure) --qedk (t 桜 c) 12:34, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
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We've got a disruptive editor whose account, created only yesterday on 18 January, was purely created to use Wikipedia as a platform to promote a petition to save a television programme. The editor has been given plenty of warnings and had their edits reverted, but I think the time has come for an admin to take action here. Here's a small list of what they have done, against WP:NOTSOAPBOX:
GUtt01 (talk) 10:33, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User: Wira rhea
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- Wira rhea (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This boy has done multiple harassment and name-calling on IP vandals such in User talk:120.188.92.81 (calling the editor "anjing"; dog), Special:Diff/932807723 (calling the editor "anjing"; dog as well), User talk:58.8.64.151 and User talk:58.11.16.46 (calling the editor "bangsat"; bastard), User talk:61.5.115.130 (calling the editor the "F" word in F-U), and User talk:61.5.115.130 (calling the editor "anjing"; dog as well). Finally answering my warnings here, he said in Balinese about "go kill yourself". There are many more in his contributions on user talk pages. Flix11 (talk) 16:13, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Flix11: "When you start a discussion about an editor, you must notify them on their user talk page. You may use
{{subst:ANI-notice}}--~~~~
to do so." —[AlanM1(talk)]— 16:20, 19 January 2020 (UTC)- Flix11, you have to notify someone when you report them here - there's a template you can put on their talk page at the top of this page. I've done it for you.
- Flix11 is one of my CVUA students, and so I'm going to leave this for another admin to deal with. However, in my view it seems clear that Wira rhea is out of line here, both in their comments to people they are reverting, and in their response to Flix's warnings. GirthSummit (blether) 16:23, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Girth Summit: Flix11 should not call another editor "boy". Also, I can't verify what Flix11 says because I cannot find an online Balinese translator.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:30, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Bbb23, true - 'boy' isn't a good way to address/describe someone, I'd overlooked that. Try some of the edit summaries and additional text after their templated warnings with Indonesian. I can't translate the passage in question, but I'm prepared to believe Flix given the stuff they're putting on vandals' talk pages. GirthSummit (blether) 16:36, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- If I am going to block a user for personal attacks, I would not take the word of the accuser. That would be grossly unfair to the accused. Google screws up the translation (I tried with the "go kill yourself" language), I assume because Balinese (a dialect of Indonesian?) is sufficiently different from Indonesian to make the translation too difficult to do properly.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:40, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Bbb23, true - 'boy' isn't a good way to address/describe someone, I'd overlooked that. Try some of the edit summaries and additional text after their templated warnings with Indonesian. I can't translate the passage in question, but I'm prepared to believe Flix given the stuff they're putting on vandals' talk pages. GirthSummit (blether) 16:36, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Girth Summit: Flix11 should not call another editor "boy". Also, I can't verify what Flix11 says because I cannot find an online Balinese translator.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:30, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- (Sorry to add to this after it's been closed.) Bbb23 Google Translate indicates that the Indonesian word for 'bitch' crops up regularly in their warnings to vandals, and as Jamie says, FU is pretty clear. However, I wasn't suggesting a block, I think that a warning for abusing user warning templates, and perhaps reading through WP:DENY, would have been sufficient. Wira rhea - please do not insult vandals when you revert and template them, it is not helpful. GirthSummit (blether) 16:52, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- On further consideration, I'm going to drop the block and replacing with a final warning. OhNoitsJamie Talk 17:10, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- (EC) Thought it might be helpful to point out that while a number of those may be Balinese, I'm pretty sure "Eh Anjing, sibuk kali tanganmu ya bangsat" is either Indonesian or Indonesian slang. Also the Google or Bing translation of that is IMO not far off given my understanding of that sentence due to the similarity to Malay. BTW while the literal translation of en:wiktionary:anjing may be 'dog', in Malay and from what I can tell Indonesian, it's also an insult in a sense that the translation probably doesn't convey [46] [47] [48] [49] . Nil Einne (talk) 17:15, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Indonesia is a majority Muslim country. In some schools of Islam, dogs are haram; so that calling someone a dog can be a grievous insult. (I tailor my insults to the circumstances, but there are limits. I would never call anyone Jewish or Muslim a pig, for obvious reasons. 'Anjing' in the present context could be analogous to that.) Narky Blert (talk) 22:34, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry to add this after closed. Okay, I'm sorry for the way I'm behaving. I'll try to control my temper next time. And for Flix11, I never said "go kill yourself". "Ape sih ci, oyongang liman ci e. De ajum iban ci dini" means "What are you, keep your hand to yourself. Don't be arrogant here" or in Indonesia "Apa sih kamu, diemin tanganmu. Jangan sombong kamu di sini". I'm not try to defend myself here. I'm crossing the line when I said bad words or dogs word, but I never said go kill yourself. But then again I'm apologize for that. And calling me "boy" considering you one-year younger than me, has the same degree as Bachelor of Computing, and once supported Juventus. Maybe we can meet sometime when I go awaydays to Persebaya or you go away to Bali United. Girth Summit thanks for the warning. I'll not add anything when I revert a vandalism. Wira rhea (talk) 22:49, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Indonesia is a majority Muslim country. In some schools of Islam, dogs are haram; so that calling someone a dog can be a grievous insult. (I tailor my insults to the circumstances, but there are limits. I would never call anyone Jewish or Muslim a pig, for obvious reasons. 'Anjing' in the present context could be analogous to that.) Narky Blert (talk) 22:34, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- (Sorry to add to this after it's been closed.) Bbb23 Google Translate indicates that the Indonesian word for 'bitch' crops up regularly in their warnings to vandals, and as Jamie says, FU is pretty clear. However, I wasn't suggesting a block, I think that a warning for abusing user warning templates, and perhaps reading through WP:DENY, would have been sufficient. Wira rhea - please do not insult vandals when you revert and template them, it is not helpful. GirthSummit (blether) 16:52, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Editor threatening to edit war using students
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This is User:Tympanus who on User:Ermenrich's talk page said
Dear Ermenrich, As you deduce from my posts at the Teahouse, I am prepared to start an edit war in order to get a decision from wiki authority. (However, I would not appear in this war, because I have enough students who would be ready for this job.) But do we actually need an edit war? Any attentive reader of Badenhausen's article would conclude the superfluousness of Ritter's basic position at hand of elder German scholarship, as I have pointed out this in the German Thidrekssaga article. We know that this does not contradict the prevailing opinion even of the eminent William J. Pfaff who considered Thidreks's Bern not only in Italy but also at the northern Verona-Bonn with regard to earlier legendary northern accounts. Furthermore, it is obvious that Badenhausen follows not Ritter, but only Kemp Malone's and some elder German scholarship's identification of the historical prototype of Thidrek (cf. the German article), since we also know that his milieu cannot be identical with those apparently Italian drawn Dietrichs provided by MHG poetry. I was told that Badenhausen's article has some hundred hits per week, that is much more than the German wiki article. I have no idea of the final wiki decision or a consensual policy that allows a link to Badenhausen's article, but I can assure you that he generally removes obsolete contextual statements in its update history as well as in the text.
As Ermenrich appears to be not around now I'm reporting this as I advised him to do earlier. See also his post to me at User talk:Doug Weller#Another Fringe pusher where he suggests Tympanus may have a COI. There's a content dispute underlying this, but the threat to editwar is clearly unacceptable. In the meanwhile I've protected the article at issue, Þiðreks saga. Doug Weller talk 19:26, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks Doug, I'm in the midst of a romantic weekend getaway so I actually hadn't even read this threat of edit warring carefully enough to notice the threat to use students. Only other thing to add is that Tympanius appears to be a single-purpose account (he has one edit not related to Dietrich von Bern) and that I have suspicions he may actually be Rolf Badenhausen, the fringe author he's pushing. He is at the very least in direct contact with him [50]. Also: who else would insist on using this guy's website as a source on WP? In that case, there's also wp:coi going on here.--Ermenrich (talk) 19:39, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- People who say they have armies of students to do X or Y for them always turn out to be fantasists. EEng 09:32, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
User:Aesthetics4eve
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Aesthetics4eve (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User's only contributions are vandalism, and responded to my warning with a personal attack. Tdc42 (talk) 19:42, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- WP:AIV is better suited to address this kind of behaviour.Lurking shadow (talk) 20:03, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 20:28, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Cjwilky topic-ban
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- Cjwilky (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Homeopathy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Cjwilky was topic-banned from homeopathy, and responded by testing the limits - see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive835 § Persistent bullying on Homeopathy talk Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive835 § Persistent bullying on Homeopathy talk.
He has recently started editing homeopathy and commenting on Talk. I asked on his Talk page if the ban had been lifted, as both Brunton and I have looked for any lifting of the ban without success. I invited him to self-revert if the ban is still in place. His response was belligerent, he did not link any discussion lifting the ban, and he made another edit at talk:homeopathy early this morning (UK time, he is UK based).
Is anyone aware of any lifting of this ban? Guy (help!) 08:55, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- I've blocked Cjwilky for 72 hours for violating their "indefinite" topic ban. El_C 09:04, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- El C, thanks, that suggests that you can't find a lifting of the ban either. I think it's fair to require the user to link to any such discussion if it exists, otherwise we can proceed on the basis that the ban is still in force.
- For context, he's a homeopath and antivaxer. His edits to footie articles seem fine though. Guy (help!) 09:11, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- As mentioned, the topic ban duration was fixed as "indefinite." If it was lifted, somehow, they should have just plain said so upon being queried about it. Their failure to have answered that question, in my mind, results in the topic ban still being active, by default. On the rare chance the topic ban was, in fact, lifted at some point, they could make that clear by linking to that discussion and, in turn, be immediately unblocked with apologies. El_C 09:16, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
Kazemita1 block changed from indef to 3 months
Through Cabayi's advice, RoySmith recently indef-blocked Kazemita1 for block evasion. El_C changed this from indef to a 3-month block. The case could do with further feedback.
Some highlights from Kazemita's editing history to his current block:
1) For the last several months, Kazemita1 has been a SPA account at People's Mujahedin of Iran, where he has received an increasing number of warnings for edit warring there. ([51]) ([52]) ([53]) ([54]) ([55])
2) The edit warring led to Kazemita1 being blocked several times
3) While being blocked (for two weeks), Kazemita1 uses different IPs to continue edit warring (at which time I file a SPI)
4) The SPI leads to Kazemita1 being indef'ed for socking
5) Kazemita1 appeals the block by citing the US constitution. The unblock request is rejected by 331dot.
6) Kazemita appeals for a second time, this time blaming "lack of proper SPI investigation to at least relate these IPs to me", as well as blaming other editors and not admitting to socking.
7) I point out that the IPs edited the exact same text that Kazemita1 was edit-warring about, which was either an amazing coincidence or block evasion.
8) Kazemita1 removes my post and his claims about "lack of proper SPI" practices, and changes his unblock request now admittig to socking/block evasion.
9) El_C changes Kazemita1's block from indef to 3 months.
Only when it was pointed out that the evidence showed he was the one behind the IPs, did Kazemita1 admit to socking/block evasion. Kazemita1 has apologized in the past for their actions, and yet they continued to edit-war using purposely-deceptive IPs that wouldn't be traced back to them. In light of this, I think that the changing of Kazemita1's block from indef to 3 months, for an increasingly-disruptive editor, merits further feedback from the community. Alex-h (talk) 10:55, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- I secured the permission of the blocking admin to amend the indefinite block. Note that I warned Alex-h against edit warring on Kazemita1's talk page.[56] El_C 10:59, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Alex-h: opening this thread may not be a good idea. All behaviors become open for scrutiny. In your case, your edit-warring on the talk page, but further, the subsequent revocation of the user's talk page access which was questionable to say the least. A can of worms, I think it's called. ——SN54129 12:22, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Serial Number 54129, yes, El_C did warn me about restoring my post on Kazemita1's talk page, which is when I stopped writing on Kazemita1's talk page. About "the subsequent revocation of the user's talk page access", that had nothing to do with me, although I disagree that it was "questionable" since Kazemita had been canvassing. Alex-h (talk) 14:58, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
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I am asking for input on what to do after receiving this comment in my talk page from Hijuecutivo. In a clear breach of WP:NPA, I was called a "political commisary", "inquisitor", "Stalinist" and received unfounded accusations of vandalism, just because I reverted some unsourced, tendentious IP edits at Spanish Socialist Workers' Party, Francisco Largo Caballero and Jesús Hernández Tomás (by now, it is apparently obvious that the IP is Hijuecutivo editing while logged out). While I'd normally be done with reverting such comments from my talk, I am worried after I was told that "after these actions, you better consider leaving Wikipedia"
and after another comment was issued when I reverted the original one, calling me "imprudent", "Wikipedia guard dog", asking me to "resign" and somehow suggesting that this new comment was a "torture-like policy" on me; all of which would be a breach of WP:HARASS. Also, the remark that "Injuries are criminal offenses" made by Hijuecutivo within their first comment on my talk looks like WP:THREAT. Impru20talk 15:05, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Hijuecutivo blocked for one week for general battleground behaviour that includes personal attacks and harassment. El_C 15:13, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
User:SharabSalam
SharabSalam continues to remove relevant and properly sourced information from articles regarding Islam, most recently Muhammad in the Quran. This user has been mentioned at WikiProject Islam and has been warned multiple times about obvious POV pushing. I've tried to be civil with this user, I've never reported anyone at ANI before, but I feel this is the only way to prevent further disruption. Thanks! GrammarDamner (talk) 17:11, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Please use DIFFS to support each of your claims. Thanks! Usedtobecool ☎️ 17:22, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Why not attempt to discuss the dispute on the article talk page, instead of bringing your content dispute to ANI? El_C 17:24, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- I attempted to discuss this and other issues on the user's talk page. This is not a simple content dispute. This user persistently attempts to remove potentially negative information from Wikipedia articles. This user is trying to paint their own picture on Wikipedia. This user also recently marked a large removal as a minor edit. I will provide diffs soon. I apologize that I do not know how to link diffs. I will try to figure it out. Thanks! GrammarDamner (talk) 17:39, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Usedtobecool and El_C, this [edit] is the most recent one that I was talking about. I will provide more. The page is now fully protected, and the information that this user removed has not been restored. Thanks! GrammarDamner (talk) 17:46, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- He rollbacks you, you rvv him — it does not inspire confidence. I know it's protected — I'm the one who protected it. El_C 17:47, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- This link [[57]] is the page WikiProject Islam. On point number 4, this user is referenced and COI issues are pointed out. GrammarDamner (talk) 17:54, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- With this edit [[58]]], the user removed a large amount of information. In the edit summary, the user said that it's not what the source said, but it's actually exactly what the source said. GrammarDamner (talk) 18:00, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- With this edit [[59]], the user removed information regarding human rights abuses. GrammarDamner (talk) 18:03, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Yes. With an edit summary explaining why. And I think the reason given (WP:BLP concerns when citing a webpage that is discussing Kuwait rather then the individual) is at least sufficient to justify discussing the matter on the talk page (or on WP:BLPN). On its own, without any attempt to discuss, it doesn't appear to me to be worthy of raising at WP:ANI. 86.134.74.102 (talk) 20:40, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- With this edit [[59]], the user removed information regarding human rights abuses. GrammarDamner (talk) 18:03, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- With this edit [[58]]], the user removed a large amount of information. In the edit summary, the user said that it's not what the source said, but it's actually exactly what the source said. GrammarDamner (talk) 18:00, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- This link [[57]] is the page WikiProject Islam. On point number 4, this user is referenced and COI issues are pointed out. GrammarDamner (talk) 17:54, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- He rollbacks you, you rvv him — it does not inspire confidence. I know it's protected — I'm the one who protected it. El_C 17:47, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Usedtobecool and El_C, this [edit] is the most recent one that I was talking about. I will provide more. The page is now fully protected, and the information that this user removed has not been restored. Thanks! GrammarDamner (talk) 17:46, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- I attempted to discuss this and other issues on the user's talk page. This is not a simple content dispute. This user persistently attempts to remove potentially negative information from Wikipedia articles. This user is trying to paint their own picture on Wikipedia. This user also recently marked a large removal as a minor edit. I will provide diffs soon. I apologize that I do not know how to link diffs. I will try to figure it out. Thanks! GrammarDamner (talk) 17:39, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Usedtobecool, El_C, here are the diffs and what exactly happened, this started when an IP editor removed a content without explaining why, I reverted but I investigated one of the sources which I saw was so uninformed about what its talking about. I did some research about the source and I found that it is famously anti-Muslim. I went to WP:RSN and discussed this there and JzG later removed the whole paragraph because it is sourced to apologists who are not experts in the topic. Here, where GrammarDamner came and reverted JzG saying "not sure why this was removed". I then reverted him and told him the reason why this was removed. He added the content again (with undo edit filter) but with a different source which is also an op-ed by a non-expert person and on top of that, does not source the whole content. I reverted again and said that the content is an op-ed written by a non-expert. He reverted me saying "well, yes, it's mentioning criticism, so it's fine. Thanks!" The source literally says that author personally "don't believe Muhammad's revelations were divine, nor those of any other prophet or religion for that matter." Another issue is that how is this even criticism. I let the content in the article and went to his talk page then an editor posted stuff about me and I didnt want to continue. After 6 days an IP editor removed the content, Drmies reverted the IP but then Drmies probably noticed the source is an op-ed and self-reverted, then Grammar reverted Drmies while making an edit summary about the IP. After 7 days I reverted Grammar and here we are.
- About the post in Islam or Quran wikiproject. There is an editor named Koreangauteng who is probably trolling and also following me during any dispute I am having with any editor he posts a message in their talk page, as a matter of fact, he posted in El_C's talk page and when this dispute happened he posted in GrammarDamner's talk page. He said in a post that because I am a Yemeni, my native language is Arabic, I love my religion, prophet, etc that I have WP:COI. And GrammarDamner also said that I have WP:COI because I am a Muslim. He posted this after a similar issue happened between me and him in Taqiya article, he added some content that doesnt IMO make any sense using a book from LuLu a self-publishing company, I reverted citing WP:SPS and he reverted with a new book that it is again sourced to a christian apologist who is so biased and not expert in any of what he is talking about, the book even shows how biased it is at the beginning saying
While there may be millions of peaceful and tolerant Muslims, many of them our neighbors, Islam itself is hardly peaceful and tolerant.
.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 18:10, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
The source literally says that author personally "don't believe Muhammad's revelations were divine, nor those of any other prophet or religion for that matter."
— so? That's a prefectly valid scholarly position.And GrammarDamner also said that I have WP:COI because I am a Muslim
— diff? El_C 18:15, 20 January 2020 (UTC)- El C, he is not a scholar! and Grammar above that I have a COI just above and cited what that editor said:
- With respect, for a Wiki Editor self-describing as a "Yemeni !", "with a native language of العربية (Arabic)", having a "Muslim" religion, who "loves Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم very much", who "is impressed by Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم" and edits as per: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al-Baqarah&diff=932969817&oldid=932950799
- - suggest he/she should consider WP:COI
- --SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 18:21, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- And not to mention that the editor has said that my edit is vandalism and yet saying that it is hard for him to be civil.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 18:23, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- El C, he is not a scholar! and Grammar above that I have a COI just above and cited what that editor said:
- SharabSalam, please just keep it simple: El C, that ridiculous COI diff, it's this--a really shortsighted remark by Koreangauteng, whose contributions may need further scrutiny, and who shot themselves in the foot with this odd claim. Drmies (talk) 18:31, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- The removal by SharabSalam of the first section linked by GrammarDamner looks entirely justified to me. It cites a Guardian 'comment is free' piece (questionable in of itself as WP:RS) for quotations which do not appear in the piece being cited, and for other statements not supported by the source. 86.134.74.102 (talk) 18:16, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- The Guardian is a reliable source, cited in many other Wikipedia articles. And just because an editor disagrees with you multiple times does not mean that they are "probably trolling". GrammarDamner (talk) 18:25, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- The Guardian is a reliable source, and yet we still do not accept opinion pieces, unascribed, for this kind of content. The IP is absolutely correct and you, GrammarDamner, are wrong. I have not read the Guardian comment, but it seems the IP has and I'll take their word for it. And let me add that in all the cases where you provided diffs, SharabSalam was correct. Drmies (talk) 18:33, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- All of those were correct? Is it correct to mark removal of content as a minor edit? Is it correct to mention that a source doesn't say something (when it in fact does and is directly quoted) in the edit summary? Is it correct to remove negative content? Or should Wikipedia articles present both sides of an issue for balance and neutrality? GrammarDamner (talk) 18:38, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- The words in quotation marks in this passage [60] beginning with the words "Why must he..." do not appear in the Guardian opinion piece cited. Or are you suggesting that the material is in fact a quotation from the Quran? 86.134.74.102 (talk) 19:41, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- No, I was not suggesting that the material is in fact a quotation from the Quran. When I mentioned quotes, I was talking about this edit [[61]] where SharabSalam removed content and in the edit summary (falsely) said that it was not what the source says. GrammarDamner (talk) 19:49, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- As I previously stated, I was referring to the first edit you linked [62] in the article your raised in your first post (Muhammad in the Quran), after being requested to provide a diff. It contains a 'quotation' not in the source. Accordingly, the deletion was valid, contrary to your claim in your original post that SharabSalam had removed "properly sourced information". 86.134.74.102 (talk) 20:25, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- No, I was not suggesting that the material is in fact a quotation from the Quran. When I mentioned quotes, I was talking about this edit [[61]] where SharabSalam removed content and in the edit summary (falsely) said that it was not what the source says. GrammarDamner (talk) 19:49, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- The words in quotation marks in this passage [60] beginning with the words "Why must he..." do not appear in the Guardian opinion piece cited. Or are you suggesting that the material is in fact a quotation from the Quran? 86.134.74.102 (talk) 19:41, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- All of those were correct? Is it correct to mark removal of content as a minor edit? Is it correct to mention that a source doesn't say something (when it in fact does and is directly quoted) in the edit summary? Is it correct to remove negative content? Or should Wikipedia articles present both sides of an issue for balance and neutrality? GrammarDamner (talk) 18:38, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- The Guardian is a reliable source, and yet we still do not accept opinion pieces, unascribed, for this kind of content. The IP is absolutely correct and you, GrammarDamner, are wrong. I have not read the Guardian comment, but it seems the IP has and I'll take their word for it. And let me add that in all the cases where you provided diffs, SharabSalam was correct. Drmies (talk) 18:33, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- The Guardian is a reliable source, cited in many other Wikipedia articles. And just because an editor disagrees with you multiple times does not mean that they are "probably trolling". GrammarDamner (talk) 18:25, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- GrammarDamner, wait.. what? how is that even related to this issue? Have you even edited in there? I dont recall seeing you there. Are you searching for an excuse for this ? I have removed the duplicated content and readded it because it was suggesting that the UN report has been released but the source says that the UN report has not been released to public and that it was only seen by Reuters, I did add it to the article with the accurate description from the source and removed the duplicated content. You are obviously trying to change the subject of this thread. This is an obvious case of WP:Boomerang.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 20:13, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Actually, that was the subject of this thread. I reported that you continue to remove information that should not be removed. I was asked to provide diffs, so I did. GrammarDamner (talk) 20:19, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- GrammarDamner, you are desperately searching for an excuse for this embarrassing, failed attempt to report me, you even made it more embarrassing by searching through my edits trying to find something to report me for. I did add the content as accurately described by the Reuters exclusive report. How is this related to what you reported me for and I quote
remove relevant and properly sourced information from articles regarding Islam, most recently Muhammad in the Quran.
How is an op-ed/commentisfree and LuLu.com are "properly sourced information"? .--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 20:36, 20 January 2020 (UTC)- Well, according to that diff, you only added some of the content. And as I've pointed out, your edit summary said that the content was not in the source, but it was. As for the op-ed, we're talking about criticism of something, which by definition will often be in an op-ed or opinion piece. Should the Guardian have published a second article stating "Some people feel that..."? GrammarDamner (talk) 20:42, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- No, we don't add content in Wikipedia about how some ordinary people feel per WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE, we only add experts criticism. Also, for the Abqiaq thing the Reuters report says that the report was seen by Reuters, the content in the infobox was suggest that the report has been released. I have contributed in that article. Almost all of the content in that article is written by me. Again this is not related to Islam, you said "remove relevant and properly sourced information from articles regarding Islam". I need evidence for this accusation.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 20:52, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Expert is a loosely defined term, and I respectfully disagree. I feel that it is not undue. GrammarDamner (talk) 21:37, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- If a dispute about article content comes down to what you (or anyone else) 'feels', such discussion should take place on the relevant article talk page. It isn't a matter for WP:ANI. 86.134.74.102 (talk) 22:12, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Expert is a loosely defined term, and I respectfully disagree. I feel that it is not undue. GrammarDamner (talk) 21:37, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- No, we don't add content in Wikipedia about how some ordinary people feel per WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE, we only add experts criticism. Also, for the Abqiaq thing the Reuters report says that the report was seen by Reuters, the content in the infobox was suggest that the report has been released. I have contributed in that article. Almost all of the content in that article is written by me. Again this is not related to Islam, you said "remove relevant and properly sourced information from articles regarding Islam". I need evidence for this accusation.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 20:52, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Well, according to that diff, you only added some of the content. And as I've pointed out, your edit summary said that the content was not in the source, but it was. As for the op-ed, we're talking about criticism of something, which by definition will often be in an op-ed or opinion piece. Should the Guardian have published a second article stating "Some people feel that..."? GrammarDamner (talk) 20:42, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- GrammarDamner, you are desperately searching for an excuse for this embarrassing, failed attempt to report me, you even made it more embarrassing by searching through my edits trying to find something to report me for. I did add the content as accurately described by the Reuters exclusive report. How is this related to what you reported me for and I quote
- Actually, that was the subject of this thread. I reported that you continue to remove information that should not be removed. I was asked to provide diffs, so I did. GrammarDamner (talk) 20:19, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- GrammarDamner, wait.. what? how is that even related to this issue? Have you even edited in there? I dont recall seeing you there. Are you searching for an excuse for this ? I have removed the duplicated content and readded it because it was suggesting that the UN report has been released but the source says that the UN report has not been released to public and that it was only seen by Reuters, I did add it to the article with the accurate description from the source and removed the duplicated content. You are obviously trying to change the subject of this thread. This is an obvious case of WP:Boomerang.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 20:13, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- @SharabSalam: still waiting for that diff to that COI passage... You are unclear as to its origins. Also, asking GrammarDamner
Did you join Wikipedia yesterday?
[63] was not your finest moment, I challenge. El_C 18:33, 20 January 2020 (UTC)- El C, see it now? Look up. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 18:33, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Drmies: I see it, thanks. But I got the impression from SharabSalam that it was GrammarDamner who made that COI claim. Perhaps I misread, then. That's why having diffs from the outset is really helpful. El_C 18:36, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- El C, I know, and I thought the same thing initially. SharabShalam is not an L1 speaker of English, I think, but hey, we found it, and that was indeed a crappy put-down. If that constitutes a COI, then we should all stop editing what we're editing. Drmies (talk) 18:39, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, totally ridiculous. El_C 18:42, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- El C, I know, and I thought the same thing initially. SharabShalam is not an L1 speaker of English, I think, but hey, we found it, and that was indeed a crappy put-down. If that constitutes a COI, then we should all stop editing what we're editing. Drmies (talk) 18:39, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- El_C the comment was made by that editor who has also posted a comment on your talk page just mins after I had with you some conversation, I linked it above in my long comment, also this editor has referenced the COI in this thread saying "On point number 4, this user is referenced and COI issues are pointed out". I said that because the editor is ignoring what other editors are saying and editwarring. The editor has reverted a removal of content that was removed by JzG after we discussed this in WP:RSN, saying that he is not sure why the content was removed. Do you think that is true? Nonsense, JzG was absolutely clear in the edit summary when he said that the sources are from apologists not experts. Then when I reverted him, he undo my edit but changed the source with a similar source, an op-ed or commentisfree, from a person who is not an expert.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 19:05, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Drmies: I see it, thanks. But I got the impression from SharabSalam that it was GrammarDamner who made that COI claim. Perhaps I misread, then. That's why having diffs from the outset is really helpful. El_C 18:36, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- El C, see it now? Look up. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 18:33, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- @SharabSalam: still waiting for that diff to that COI passage... You are unclear as to its origins. Also, asking GrammarDamner
- I can't help but wonder who GrammerDamner is, and why they make so many edits to change a few little things, all marked as "grammar" when, certainly in this case, none of them are actually grammatical. Drmies (talk) 18:39, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- What is wrong with that edit? GrammarDamner (talk) 18:51, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- It's ten edits, and it's not about grammar. That's all. Drmies (talk) 21:28, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Drmies which edits? The edit you highlighted is just a few grammar fixes. Also, I wasn't being rhetorical with my questions above. I'm actually wondering are all those things correct? Please answer when you get a chance. Thank you. GrammarDamner (talk) 21:37, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- None of those edits were grammatical. All the diffs I looked at, SharabSalam was correct, particularly the one sourced to that comment in The Guardian. Drmies (talk) 00:54, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Drmies, with all due respect, you must be mistaken. In those edits, I added a comma, removed an erroneous word, added a comma, changed a verb tense, added a preposition, corrected capitalization, added a comma, added a comma, added a comma, changed a conjunction (edit summary "wording"), and added a comma. How are those not grammatical? I'm genuinely confused. GrammarDamner (talk) 03:40, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- GrammarDamner, commas aren't a matter of grammar but of style. Changing a conjunction (from "but" to "and") is a matter of semantics. You didn't change any verb tenses or "correct" capitalization. (Capitalization also is not a grammatical matter.) I think your confusion is between grammar and style. Your comma after "22", for instance, is typically mandatory for US students but not in other varieties of English. Drmies (talk) 16:05, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Drmies, with all due respect, all of those are matters of grammar. Yes, some of them fall under other categories as well, but they are all grammar issues. GrammarDamner (talk) 17:18, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- GrammarDamner, commas aren't a matter of grammar but of style. Changing a conjunction (from "but" to "and") is a matter of semantics. You didn't change any verb tenses or "correct" capitalization. (Capitalization also is not a grammatical matter.) I think your confusion is between grammar and style. Your comma after "22", for instance, is typically mandatory for US students but not in other varieties of English. Drmies (talk) 16:05, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Drmies, with all due respect, you must be mistaken. In those edits, I added a comma, removed an erroneous word, added a comma, changed a verb tense, added a preposition, corrected capitalization, added a comma, added a comma, added a comma, changed a conjunction (edit summary "wording"), and added a comma. How are those not grammatical? I'm genuinely confused. GrammarDamner (talk) 03:40, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- None of those edits were grammatical. All the diffs I looked at, SharabSalam was correct, particularly the one sourced to that comment in The Guardian. Drmies (talk) 00:54, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Drmies which edits? The edit you highlighted is just a few grammar fixes. Also, I wasn't being rhetorical with my questions above. I'm actually wondering are all those things correct? Please answer when you get a chance. Thank you. GrammarDamner (talk) 21:37, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- It's ten edits, and it's not about grammar. That's all. Drmies (talk) 21:28, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- What is wrong with that edit? GrammarDamner (talk) 18:51, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
A question for GrammarDamner
In your second post above,[64] you state that you "attempted to discuss this and other issues on the user's talk page". Can you provide a link to the relevant posts? Because all I can locate from you in the history for User talk:SharabSalam is a section entitled 'Persistent vandalism' [65] followed by an ANI notification for this thread. [66] Are you suggesting that these posts constitute adequate 'discussion' by you, or has there been such discussion somewhere else? 86.134.74.102 (talk) 21:39, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- It was also discussed on my talk page. Given SharabSalam's history of edit warring and personal attacks, I felt it was time to bring it here. GrammarDamner (talk) 21:46, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- If the 'discussion' you are referring to is the one here [67], I suggest that you immediately request that this discussion be closed, before a WP:BOOMERANG appears. That does not even remotely constitute an attempt by you to discuss anything. 86.134.74.102 (talk) 21:58, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- I see some tit-for-tat; but nothing I would call discussion – which should have occurred on the article TP. Someone should have brought this up at WP:AN3. But, I think it was a mistake for you to bring this here considering you were both warring. As for Koreangauteng, someone needs to inform them that their COI comment was way out of line. (Or, as I worship of beef bourguignon, I’ll need to remove my edits in that article). O3000 (talk) 22:06, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if I brought this to the wrong place. I'm not even sure what AN3 is, but I will look it up now. I'm still relatively new to all of this. As for "my warring", I thought I was doing everything right, not violating 3RR, trying to restore the article. Perhaps I forgot to mention SharabSalam's personal attacks in my first post, but that was part of the reason I brought it here. GrammarDamner (talk) 22:13, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- You have repeatedly referred to supposed 'personal attacks' by SharabSalam. As far as I can see, you haven't however provided links to any of them. I suggest you do so, because repeatedly accusing someone of making such attacks, without providing evidence, may itself constitute a personal attack. And while SharabSalam's "Did you join Wikipedia yesterday?" [68] wasn't exactly polite, I don't think that on its own is going to justify sanctions against him. Better phrased, it might even have passed as a fair comment, I'd have to suggest, given your apparent lack of understanding of several key Wikipedia policies. Policies such as discussing disputed content on article talk pages, as was suggested in that very post. 86.134.74.102 (talk) 22:54, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, that was the personal attack against me by SharabSalam. You can also look at SharabSalam's block log to see the user being blocked for personal attacks before. I'm sorry that I don't know how to post a link to a user's block log. I'm not asking for any sanctions against SharabSalam. I was hoping that someone else could help explain that Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral, meaning the articles should include relevant information, even if it's negative. GrammarDamner (talk) 23:00, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- GrammarDamner, Where is the personal attack? huh? I personally attacked you because I was blocked for personal attack? The content I removed is not negative or positive, it was a mix and I am not the one who firstly removed it, it was removed an admin first and you added it again. Also you edited warred, two admins and me removed that content.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 00:00, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- The personal attack was when you posted "Did you join Wikipedia yesterday?" on my talk page. GrammarDamner (talk) 00:05, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- GrammarDamner, What? thats a personal attack? I told you that because you were obviously not informed about reliable sourced and editwarring as well. Thats not a personal attack. That is saying that you are not informed about the wikipedia policies.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 00:10, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Perhaps I'm too much of a softie (wouldn't be the first time someone has said that about me, haha), but I felt offended. GrammarDamner (talk) 00:13, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- What you did was like a new editor. You removed the content saying not sure why it was removed, yet there is an edit summary by JzG saying why he removed the content, you re-added the content using a source from commentisfree source in the Guardian, all 3 months old editors know that content like that, that make criticism should be sourced to experts per WP:FRINGE. We dont just add what an ordinary man said. We would have 1 million MBs if we are going to just write what a random person says. Also, you said that the there is a COI, right? Above you said
[o]n point number 4, this user is referenced and COI issues are pointed out.
Do you still think that there is a COI issues with me?--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 00:28, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- What you did was like a new editor. You removed the content saying not sure why it was removed, yet there is an edit summary by JzG saying why he removed the content, you re-added the content using a source from commentisfree source in the Guardian, all 3 months old editors know that content like that, that make criticism should be sourced to experts per WP:FRINGE. We dont just add what an ordinary man said. We would have 1 million MBs if we are going to just write what a random person says. Also, you said that the there is a COI, right? Above you said
- Perhaps I'm too much of a softie (wouldn't be the first time someone has said that about me, haha), but I felt offended. GrammarDamner (talk) 00:13, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thats not even assuming bad faith. You assumed bad faith and called my edit WP:vandalism at first I thought it is a typo when you said rvv but you went to the talk page said that I am vandalising, wow.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 00:14, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- GrammarDamner, What? thats a personal attack? I told you that because you were obviously not informed about reliable sourced and editwarring as well. Thats not a personal attack. That is saying that you are not informed about the wikipedia policies.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 00:10, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- The personal attack was when you posted "Did you join Wikipedia yesterday?" on my talk page. GrammarDamner (talk) 00:05, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- GrammarDamner, Where is the personal attack? huh? I personally attacked you because I was blocked for personal attack? The content I removed is not negative or positive, it was a mix and I am not the one who firstly removed it, it was removed an admin first and you added it again. Also you edited warred, two admins and me removed that content.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 00:00, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Exactly. You want to widen the discussion, not narrow it by limiting it to the two editors in dispute. Bring some outside input to the matter under contention. That's what the article talk page is for — and if that somehow stalls, there's dispute resolution and its accompanying requests. El_C 23:04, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you, El_C, I should have thought of that, even though SharabSalam first brought it to my talk page with a personal attack. I have commented on the article's talk page, and I hope others will too. GrammarDamner (talk) 23:06, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, that was the personal attack against me by SharabSalam. You can also look at SharabSalam's block log to see the user being blocked for personal attacks before. I'm sorry that I don't know how to post a link to a user's block log. I'm not asking for any sanctions against SharabSalam. I was hoping that someone else could help explain that Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral, meaning the articles should include relevant information, even if it's negative. GrammarDamner (talk) 23:00, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- You have repeatedly referred to supposed 'personal attacks' by SharabSalam. As far as I can see, you haven't however provided links to any of them. I suggest you do so, because repeatedly accusing someone of making such attacks, without providing evidence, may itself constitute a personal attack. And while SharabSalam's "Did you join Wikipedia yesterday?" [68] wasn't exactly polite, I don't think that on its own is going to justify sanctions against him. Better phrased, it might even have passed as a fair comment, I'd have to suggest, given your apparent lack of understanding of several key Wikipedia policies. Policies such as discussing disputed content on article talk pages, as was suggested in that very post. 86.134.74.102 (talk) 22:54, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if I brought this to the wrong place. I'm not even sure what AN3 is, but I will look it up now. I'm still relatively new to all of this. As for "my warring", I thought I was doing everything right, not violating 3RR, trying to restore the article. Perhaps I forgot to mention SharabSalam's personal attacks in my first post, but that was part of the reason I brought it here. GrammarDamner (talk) 22:13, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
An issue regarding any Wikipedia editor with (any) strong personal belief
I first raised the issue of a possible COI. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Islam#Some_issues_with_the_current_Wikipedia_Quran_articles
On 2 January 2020 I made an unreserved apology for the use any descriptor other than a belief system. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Islam&diff=933696430&oldid=933606413
I believe (note, that is my 'belief') it is not unreasonable to raise potential COI Wikipedia editor issues for any editor with any strong, self-identified belief system. Koreangauteng (talk) 23:18, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think that it is ever 'reasonable' to use the talk page of a Wikiproject to make COI accusations concerning a named Wikipedia contributor in the manner that you did. There is an appropriate place for such discussions (Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard), and unless there are very good reasons not to, the individual concerned should be notified.
- As for your interpretation of WP:COI policy, I strongly believe that the Earth is (approximately) spherical. Do I have a COI if I edit an article on our home planet? I assume not. But in any case, this isn't the place to discuss the limits of WP:COI policy, and Wikipedia certainly isn't going to ban people from editing articles on subject matter they have beliefs about. 86.134.74.102 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:40, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- El C, what about this editor Koreangauteng who is adding sources like memri and stuff like that to Islam related articles and also following me in every dispute or conversation posting a link to his post which says that I have a COI. This is absolutely unacceptable. I told this editor before that it does not constitute as WP:COI if I love my prophet peace be upon him. Also, now the discussion that it is opened in the talk page of Talk:Muhammad in the Quran is about that link!--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 00:12, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- If you have an issue with Koreangauteng's behaviour, and you can't resolve it by discussing it with him/her (have you tried?), then maybe it should be raised here, but I really wouldn't recommend trying to find a resolution in this particular discussion. It is a disjointed mess already, and I doubt anyone will want to see it develop into a three-way dispute. Hopefully though, Koreangauteng will have realised that naming you in that way on the Wikiproject page was wrong, and won't do it again. 86.134.74.102 (talk) 00:32, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- well, I have told him that it is not a COI to be a Muslim and that his comment is polemic. After that I just ignored him although he is still following me. Also, I know that he is still adding poorly sourced content and using primary sources in his edits but I dont really want to bother right now.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 00:56, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- I'm on it. As for Koreangauteng consistently adding poorly-sourced content to Islamic articles out of righting great wrongs or whatever impetus, that is something which they may be sanctioned for. But the evidentiary basis for that disruption has to exist (be compiled in a cogent format) first. El_C 02:46, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- well, I have told him that it is not a COI to be a Muslim and that his comment is polemic. After that I just ignored him although he is still following me. Also, I know that he is still adding poorly sourced content and using primary sources in his edits but I dont really want to bother right now.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 00:56, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- If you have an issue with Koreangauteng's behaviour, and you can't resolve it by discussing it with him/her (have you tried?), then maybe it should be raised here, but I really wouldn't recommend trying to find a resolution in this particular discussion. It is a disjointed mess already, and I doubt anyone will want to see it develop into a three-way dispute. Hopefully though, Koreangauteng will have realised that naming you in that way on the Wikiproject page was wrong, and won't do it again. 86.134.74.102 (talk) 00:32, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- No, religious beliefs themselves are never sufficient to constitute a COI (holding a formal position like a priest theoretically could, but I suspect it would generally only apply to things directly related to the religious hierarchy for that religion rather than the faith as a whole.) This is spelled out on WP:COI:
Beliefs and desires may lead to biased editing, but they do not constitute a COI. COI emerges from an editor's roles and relationships, and the tendency to bias that we assume exists when those roles and relationships conflict.
The pope's personal aide cannot edit Pope or other pages directly related to the papacy due to personal relationships, but ordinary Catholics can. Imagine if we, for instance, banned every Christian from editing articles related to Christianity - it would not be tenable. As WP:COINOTBIAS says, of course, such editors can still be biased and can get in trouble if they end up consistently falling afoul of WP:ADVOCACY, but note that that is fairly specific itself -Advocacy is the use of Wikipedia to promote personal beliefs or agendas at the expense of Wikipedia's goals and core content policies, including verifiability and neutral point of view
, ie. you have to be able to show that they're breaching other core policies because of their bias for it to be actionable, you can't just wave your hands at their strong beliefs and assume it. This is because in many cases (especially when it comes to religion) the most knowledgeable editors and the ones with the most interest in the topic are also going to have biases; we wouldn't want to just ban them all at once. Instead, the important question is whether they can edit constructively and evenhandedly despite their bias. --Aquillion (talk) 03:23, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Aquillion Thank you. Koreangauteng (talk) 05:34, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Humans are inherently biased towards humans. Let's ban humans from editing any article related to humanity. -- a lad insane (Channel 2) 04:40, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
Editor WilliamJE refusal to discuss on article's Talk page
Context: This report involves aviation accident Galaxy Airlines Flight 203, and relates to sole survivor George Lamson Jr. Lamson is notable and has WP:LASTING coverage in reliable sources, but his notability is largely in relation to this accident. Per WP:BIO1E, I believe it's appropriate that Lamson is discussed in this article. (I'd recommend starting with this revision of mine for a demonstration.)
Editor WilliamJE removed substantial, sourced content from the page regarding Lamson, including both his name and the fact that a notable documentary was made about the sole survivor of the accident. I restored the content, added further content and sources supporting notability for Lamson in relation to the event, and added to the article's Talk page. WilliamJE then continued to revert my edits, but more importantly, has refused to discuss on the article's Talk page. He is only willing to explain himself via edit summaries, and he refuses to address the central point I made on the article's Talk page.
Here's a timeline (Edit: Now with diffs) (I omitted my most minor cleanup edits, which I don't believe are relevant to the timeline):
- Flight 203 page: December 24, 2019 - 16:01 CST - WilliamJE removes content on Lamson (Consensus is we don't list, name survivors, dead, or those who miss the plane unless they are WP notable.)
- Flight 203 page: December 24, 2019 - 18:19 CST - WilliamJE removes content on Lamson (Consensus is we don't list, name survivors, dead, or those who miss the plane unless they are WP notable.)
- Flight 203 page: January 20, 2020 - 18:33 CST - I undid last edit (Undid revision 932311233 by WilliamJE (talk) (that's just a general rule; in this case, notability is due to individual being sole survivor. please discuss on article talk page if you disagree.)
- Flight 203 Talk page: January 20, 2020 - 18:43 CST - I created new Talk page section explaining why Lamson content belongs in this article
- Flight 203: January 20, 2020 - 21:57 CST - WilliamJE reverts my edits (See- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:1943_Gibraltar_B-24_crash#Question)
- Flight 203 page: January 20, 2020 - 22:11 CST - I revert WilliamJE (That does not address WP:BIO1E issue here -- see and discuss on this article's talk page, where I've already distinguished this)
- Flight 203 page: January 20, 2020 - 22:20 CST - I added more content and sources on Lamson to make notability clear (Aftermath: Adding more on sole survivor Lamson, including references supporting his notability connected to the incident)
- Flight 203 page: January 20, 2020 - 22:33 CST - WilliamJE both reverts and removes newly added content, still without engaging on Talk page (Reverted to revision 936804500 by WilliamJE (talk): See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Northwest_Airlines_Flight_255#Should_Cecelia_Cichan_be_mentioned_by_name? (TW))
- Flight 203 page: January 20, 2020 - 22:34 CST - I reverted, appealing for discussion on Talk page (Undid revision 936808834 by WilliamJE (talk) (again, discuss on this article's talk page)
- Flight 203 page: January 20, 2020 - 22:35 CST - WilliamJE reverts again (You read. Consensus we don't name)
- My user Talk page: January 20, 2020 - 22:39 CST - WilliamJE leaves a two-word reply on my personal Talk page, linking to an archived conversation from their personal Talk page as if it is a source of policy, still refusing to engage on the Flight 203 Talk page (→Also here: new section)
- My user Talk page: January 20, 2020 - 22:40 CST - I revert his attempt to avoid discussing on article's Talk page (Continued refusal to discuss on article talk page will be reported)
To be clear, WilliamJE has (as of the time I'm posting this here) not engaged on the article's Talk page, not addressed or even acknowledged the WP:BIO1E issue I raised, and continued to act like individual discussions on individual other article Talk pages somehow override general Wikipedia policies like WP:GNG and WP:BIO1E, which combined suggest that (1) Lamson is sufficiently notable and (2) the appropriate place to discuss him is on the article for the related event, which is Galaxy Airlines Flight 203. Reasonable editors could disagree, but he isn't being reasonable and he isn't disagreeing, instead he's just citing to "consensus" where there actually isn't a policy consensus so broad and rigid it can be explained in edit summaries. Shelbystripes (talk) 04:33, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Hi. When you left a notice on the editor's talk page (if it was you who left it), you forgot to leave your name by striking the tilde key four times. You also left the message at the top of the page rather than the bottom, where the most recent messages should go. Would you want to correct those errors? Thanks. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 05:51, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Hello again. I looked at the links you posted above, but unfortunately it is really difficult to ascertain the changes that the other editor posted. It would be far better if you could link to the WP:Diffs that you can get from the History page. Then we could easily tell what the other person did. Thanks. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 06:01, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- I don't understand why you're here when the discussion on the article talk page had only been open for about 5 hours when you posted, and even now it's only been open for about 8 hours. This is by no means an urgent situation, so 5 or 8 hours is way too short to conclude no discussion will take place. While I understand it may be frustrating when an editor is reverting but hasn't yet joined the discussion, you still have to give them reasonable chance to respond. The stuff in December is irrelevant as neither of you opened a discussion [69], so you can both be blamed for the lack of discussion. Nil Einne (talk) 07:40, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- I'm beginning to think we need to ask for $20 via Paypal as a deposit before someone opens a new ANI thread. We keep the deposit if the thread turns out to be neither urgent nor about a chronic, intractable behavioral problem. This is a simple content dispute.
EEng 08:24, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- WilliamJE has not edited since he referred OP to the prior discussion. I don;t think it's reasonable to bring this here when the user in question has tried to discuss, albeit in a manner OP dislikes, and had not edited since OP reverted that attempt. Recommend we close this as it goes nowhere and OP should seek WP:dispute resolution. -- Deepfriedokra 08:30, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Deepfriedokra The reason for no reply? I was asleep. Anyone who studied my editing will see I rarely make edits between 2100 and 0600 Eastern standard time. Last night I was up later than normal because I played bingo like normal on Monday nights.
- The original poster of this thread has been referred to three different talk page discussions (There is also a guidelines page[70] which I didn't refer them to. Something about me wanting to go to sleep) on the topic they are complaining of. Two of which took place in the last 6 months and one of which[71] was absolutely on target in relation to their edits. They are whining (Take a look at their absurd reply here[72]). about consensus and took it here because they don't like what they are reading....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 12:20, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- @WilliamJE: Exactly. I don't feel it was reasonable of OP to report here when you had not had time to reply. ANd I do feel like you have been responsive, even if they don't think so or like the manner of your replies.-- Deepfriedokra 12:26, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- And if you don't know who posts like this you can't have wiki'd very far Eeng/creffett-- Deepfriedokra 12:30, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
All -- I apologize if this was the wrong place to bring this up; I originally wanted to request dispute resolution, but when I selected that I hadn't yet discussed on the article's Talk page, it said "It's best to discuss your concerns with the other users on the talk page of the article before seeking dispute resolution." When I went back and put that I'd tried to discuss on the article's Talk page, it then asked if the issue was about another editor's behavior, and then it said to come here. That's why I posted here. Since it appears he's finally stopped refusing to respond on the article's Talk page, I'll take it there... Shelbystripes (talk) 02:07, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
Obvious sockpuppet needs blocking please
Could someone please block Arr1333 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Ars3nal311/Archive for background. No point wasting time waiting for SPI to deal with this, since the account is active now and making their usual disruptive edits. Thank you. FDW777 (talk) 08:58, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Blocked, tagged, made a report to SPI, edits may need cleanup. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:31, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- I'm starting to wonder if that domain needs to go on the blacklist...it's on a number of pages, and might or might not be a decent source (I haven't actually read any of it yet), but this behavior is not okay. creffpublic a creffett franchise (talk to the boss) 13:43, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Creffett: The domain used to be owned by the Gay & Lesbian Times (magazine). I'm guessing at a certain point of time, the magazine closed and someone took over the domain to sell their alternative medicine (read: bs) products. Either way, case archived. An edit filter can help probably (also to keep track of the socks and whitelist older links which use Wayback Machine or smth). --qedk (t 桜 c) 17:31, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- I'm starting to wonder if that domain needs to go on the blacklist...it's on a number of pages, and might or might not be a decent source (I haven't actually read any of it yet), but this behavior is not okay. creffpublic a creffett franchise (talk to the boss) 13:43, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
IP tagging articles with poorly written custom templates
- 95.145.158.20 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- 95.144.128.83 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
See especially [73][74][75][76]. Note that they are edit warring over their tag at Criticism of postmodernism. Here's a weird edit summary [77] and here they're using a talk page as a soapbox. [78] They have no edits besides adding template tags and that talk page comment. Bringing this here because they have a suspicious familiarity with templates and the abbreviation "rv" for "revert"; they may be a sock or LTA that someone here can recognize. -Crossroads- (talk) 17:42, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Similar occurrence on MissingNo. as seen here where they argued weasel words, bias and a lack of 'negative reception' while also demanding The Cutting Room Floor, a wiki, be used as a source? They're also familiar with 'deletionists' on the site too.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 21:31, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
User:David Gerard and The Sun sources
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I know The Sun is depreciated, but that doesn't mean an outright ban! I am not sure David has the health of sources in mind, because he is systematically going through and removing sources with some strange summary comments which doesn't seem to match what the source is about. At the same time, there are a few occasions when The Sun is being used as a primary source and backed up with a secondary source, however questionable the content is I feel there are some issues with how David has been going about removing these sources and handling the content on offer. I am really questioning the method of this removal and asking for a more thorough review of the situation. Reviews of movies, football matches, analysts, summaries of events, these are some of the things that have been removed. Deprecated isn't a total ban so why is he trying to remove every citation from the newspaper. I asked this before, I don't want to shop around, but I feel there are some issues that need to be addressed and to make sure certain articles are not compromised. Cheers. Govvy (talk) 19:10, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- 1) You have failed to notify David Gerard of this thread as you are required to do by several prominent notices on this page, and 2) WP:DEPS says
Citing the source as a reference is generally prohibited, especially when other more reliable sources exist.
If the Sun is being used as a primary source and it is backed up with a secondary source, then clearly other more reliable sources exist and the ref to the deprecated source should be removed. As an aside, I think you might have WP:PSTS backwards, we prefer secondary sources over primary ones. But even if the two linked articles are otherwise identical, the non-deprecated source should be used and the deprecated source should be removed. The exceptions in WP:DEPS are very narrow and generally relate to a source talking about themselves. Do you have any examples of David Gerard removing references to The Sun where one of those exceptions applies? Where did you contact them to attempt to resolve that dispute? ST47 (talk) 19:21, 21 January 2020 (UTC) - Do you have any diffs that show the removal of the source in contravention of WP:DEPS, the relevant policy in question. Please note that deprecated sources mean the source is not reliable and should not be trusted for just about any use at Wikipedia; removing such sources is perfectly in line with removing ANY clearly unreliable source. --Jayron32 19:29, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Yes - I was about to ask this too. I just took a flick through David's contribs and all the ones I saw were either redundant refs or were tabloid reporting. None of them seemed to meet the criteria for being kept. Black Kite (talk) 19:31, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Jayron32: Wrong, WP:DEPS is not a policy, not even a guideline, it has equivalent status to an essay as WP:SUPPLEMENTAL expains. David Gerard has indeed countered arguments about policies and guidelines by saying that a source is "deprecated", although I am not suggesting that a wrong edit was done for The Sun. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 19:43, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- What is the point of having WP:RS and WP:V if we can just allow any source at all; if someone adds an unreliable source (according to your rationale) we're not allowed to remove it, ever. Can you explain that? --Jayron32 20:08, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Peter is completely incorrect here - his misunderstanding goes against verifiability (policy), reliable sources (strongly supported guideline) and WP:THESUN (RFC finding with strong general consensus). Adding The Sun back without an excellent reason violates WP:BURDEN, a subsection of the WP:V policy:
- WP:RS says:
Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources
. - WP:RS is a guideline, but it's included by explicit reference in the first sentence of WP:V, which is policy:
On Wikipedia, verifiability means other people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source.
The words "reliable source" link further down the page to #What_counts_as_a_reliable_source, which is headed withFurther information: Wikipedia:Reliable sources
. - Verifiability - which is policy - requires the use of reliable sources. Deprecated sources are those that have been found, by strong consensus, to be generally unreliable. The deprecation RFC for the Sun says:
the Sun is designated as a generally-unreliable publication. References from the Sun shall be actively discouraged from being used in any article
. - WP:BURDEN - which is policy - states:
Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source.
- WP:RS says:
- Thus: removing links to the Sun is almost always the correct thing to do, as it is a source that has been found generally unreliable. It is not mandatory - but it is almost always correct.
- WP:BURDEN - which is policy - also states:
The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material
. So the burden of proof for addition or restoration of deprecated sources is entirely on the person doing so, and not on the person removing the deprecated sources. - Thus: if I remove the Sun and someone reverts that removal, they have to justify that revert, as it is a new addition of a presumed-unreliable source. "I like it" or "looks OK to me" isn't really enough to overcome the strong general RFC consensus, either in edit summary or even the talk page - WP:LOCALCONSENSUS doesn't overcome a strong general consensus.
- In conclusion, Govvy and Peter need to review the relevant policies, guidelines and RFC findings. - David Gerard (talk) 20:50, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Rather than going into what Jayron32 and David Gerard seem to think I said, I'll say what I actually said, in full, as verifiable by looking right above. Jayron32: Wrong, WP:DEPS is not a policy, not even a guideline, it has equivalent status to an essay as WP:SUPPLEMENTAL expains. Jayron32 indeed said "WP:DEPS, the relevant policy in question", and is indeed wrong, it is neither policy nor guideline as its heading shows, and WP:SUPPLEMENTAL indeed says such things, "like essay pages, have a limited status, as they have not been thoroughly vetted by the community." Notice the total absence of a reply to that in what Jayron32 or David Gerard say. David Gerard has indeed countered arguments about policies and guidelines by saying that a source is "deprecated" ... on the page that I linked to you can see that the argument pointed to policies/guidelines as I said, and that David Gerard's counter-argument was indeed about "deprecated" as I said, click and see. Notice the total absence of a reply to that in what Jayron32 or David Gerard say. ... although I am not suggesting that a wrong edit was done for The Sun. David Gerard says that what I say "goes against" WP:THESUN, well, saying that I'm not objecting is objecting, eh? And that's all I said, statements even vaguely similar to "allow any source at all" just don't exist in the post. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 22:03, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Peter is completely incorrect here - his misunderstanding goes against verifiability (policy), reliable sources (strongly supported guideline) and WP:THESUN (RFC finding with strong general consensus). Adding The Sun back without an excellent reason violates WP:BURDEN, a subsection of the WP:V policy:
- What is the point of having WP:RS and WP:V if we can just allow any source at all; if someone adds an unreliable source (according to your rationale) we're not allowed to remove it, ever. Can you explain that? --Jayron32 20:08, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
Govvy says I don't want to shop around
- but is doing so. In addition, it turns out the source of his upset is that he has a relative who works for The Sun.
I'd suggest this present discussion is a waste of everyone's time - but if anyone is superlatively bored, feel free to come remove deprecated sources with me! I do it as a marginally more productive use of my time than playing Angry Birds, and it definitely improves the encyclopedia. Got The Sun down to about 1500, but there's 22,000 Daily Mail links to go - but chewing through them three or ten at a time is good work and makes the world a better-informed place.
I noted this on WP:RSN, but since it's been brought up here, it's worth mentioning again: In my now-considerable experience of the sort of claims The Sun is actually used to cite on Wikipedia, such links generally warrant a {{cn}} at best, or removal of the claim. References to The Sun are generally:
- redundant to existing cites
- citing quirky and eye-catching information that can't be verified anywhere else, probably because The Sun made it up
- tabloid gossip about BLP material, which will usually warrant straight-up removal under WP:BLP, or a {{cn}} if it looks uncontroversial
- early-life BLP claims that can't be verified in an RS - same treatment
- Past WP:CRYSTAL, often failed, about pop stars, TV stars or soap operas - remove
- Sun-only-sourced inflammatory stories about ethnic minorities, which should generally just be removed
- football scores, which are almost universally replaceable per the RFC.
That's not all of it, but that's most of it.
The Daily Mail is much the same, with an extra line in unusually-contrived sports statistics, which in science would be called "p-hacking".
You would probably believe how defensive Sun defenders get - including the one who we saw at WP:AN late last year, who was edit-warring back in controversial BLP claims that were sourced to literally a dead link, and loudly asserted that The Sun was a top-notch source for the subject because it was about sport therefore was wrong to remove, and berated me for my clear incompetence in not letting him keep his literally nonexistent reference.
One interesting issue with The Sun is that they changed their website layout a few years ago - so there's a vast number of Sun references that were dead links, any URL with /sol/ in it. The claims are literally unsourced already. Only some of this content was ported over to the new site - but I'm certainly not going to lift a finger to find a replacement Sun link to insert, and in any case doing so would fail WP:BURDEN. Replacing with a {{cn}} is literally not changing anything, just stopping us pretending to have a cite when we don't.
Quite a lot of the people objecting recently to my Sun removals are objecting, and sometimes revert-warring, over "cites" that don't work at all. Editors who aggressively defend The Sun are, IME, loud roughly in proportion to their misunderstanding of WP:V and WP:RS - David Gerard (talk) 20:58, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- I should note - all of these edits are made by hand in Firefox. You can tell by the occasional broken reference. I make mistakes, and I'm grateful to the editors who fix them. If you want to ask about any particular edit, I'm happy to explain what I was thinking, or go "sorry, that was my mistake". But in practice, I've been getting thanks for my deprecated source removals, and I think they get reverted less than my other edits - David Gerard (talk) 22:09, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- David Gerard: Re:
"references that were dead links" … "The claims are literally unsourced already"
— from WP:KDL:Do not delete a URL just because it has been tagged with {{dead link}} for a long time.
— content with dead-link sources generally isn't considered the same as unsourced content, as I understand it. There's a case to be made against that practice (and in my opinion working to put Sun refs in the bin is also quite sensible) but just thought I'd point it out. —{{u|Goldenshimmer}} (they/them)|Talk|Contributions 23:02, 21 January 2020 (UTC)- oh, absolutely - as that notes, it "may" be useful, and in this case the only information the dead link conveys is that it's The Sun and therefore we're claiming a source that shouldn't be used in the first place - David Gerard (talk) 23:20, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
I am edit warring a bit, see Talk:Race_and_intelligence#Reverts
Check it out if you are interested. Peregrine Fisher (talk) 20:41, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
Deliberate well orchestrated tactics to spread pov and fringe theories.
Hi, I would like to report a group of people who deliberately spread pov and fringe theories to undermine the Encyclopedia. The IP 2601:405:4A00:75F0:AC96:7624:1296:CA55 recently vandalised Wikipedia and I reverted the vandalism but the Land of Punt vandalism was not reverted, this was the second time this happened and editor Doug Weller using it. The tactics are not only vandalism 1 and 2 they also use stalking, threats of report, stonewalling, repeated edits meant to make editing very difficult for others to improve the Encyclopedia and probably others. I would like the committee to revert that vandalism as mainstream scholarship and science locate Punt in the Horn of Africa and do something about their tactics which undermine the improvement of the Encyclopedia. Thank you.Dalhoa (talk) 22:39, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
Removing CSD tags
Seanopegs (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Sofidelonia has been tagged CSD several times as a hoax. The creator keeps removing the tags and blanking their talk page. MB 02:33, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
Hey, i already write in the top that my article is not real (From The Creator) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seanopegs (talk • contribs) 02:37, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- Indeffed. Page deleted. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:40, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
I don't know how to explain this or if it goes here. I am doing this fast because 500+ a day US viewers have lost access to an important page. I am notifying the editors involved but they haven't had time to reply yet.
At 04:20, 17 January 2020 "School bus" was deliberately US/Canada subject specific. It was about operating US./Canada school buses in the US/Canada. No other countries. It was getting 500+ views a day. There was a "worldwide view" flag that I should have removed. The problem is the name of the article, the article itself is excellent.
The article has been made effectively invisible. Without a move discussion it was moved so that anybody in the United States who searches for "School bus" gets nothing. The United States is the major user of "School buses" and we can't find them. Who would search for "School buses in North America"?
This controversial move should have had a Request for move and should be reverted until that happens. Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 04:43, 22 January 2020 (UTC). Sammy D III (talk) 04:43, 22 January 2020 (UTC)