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:::I don't mind being called a half-wit, as I figure half a wit is better than none. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 00:03, 14 February 2011 (UTC) |
:::I don't mind being called a half-wit, as I figure half a wit is better than none. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 00:03, 14 February 2011 (UTC) |
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::::But you don't want to be one and a third wit, believe me ;) [[User:Egg Centric|Egg Centric]] ([[User talk:Egg Centric|talk]]) 00:08, 14 February 2011 (UTC) |
::::But you don't want to be one and a third wit, believe me ;) [[User:Egg Centric|Egg Centric]] ([[User talk:Egg Centric|talk]]) 00:08, 14 February 2011 (UTC) |
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::I don't think we need to "get over" Badger Drink's continuing violations of [[WP:CIV]]. Instead, he needs to read and show that he understands it. I'm going to be leaving this thread now because I have articles to research and write, but if anyone decides to start an RFC on this user and is able to certify it with two users who have tried and failed to resolve this problem, please contact me so that I can participate. This behavior should not be tolerated from anyone. [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas|talk]]) 00:13, 14 February 2011 (UTC) |
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== Is removing a BIAS tag vandalism? == |
== Is removing a BIAS tag vandalism? == |
Revision as of 00:13, 14 February 2011
Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents |
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This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.
When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search) |
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Unblock request
User unblocked. 狐 FOX 17:57, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
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7Mike5000 (talk) (contributions) was blocked for making this comment about an editor, in this August 2010 AN/I thread, which was construed as a threat:
Mike was unnecessarily combative, overly sensitive to actual or perceived insults, impatient, and prone to assume bad faith. He is aware of this behaviour problem and has resolved to change. He has contacted me and asked if I would keep an eye on him, and offer advice and guidance where appropriate. I have agreed to do that for
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Proposal
As above. 狐 FOX 17:59, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
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*Support with qualifications I am okay with Mike being unblocked with the following conditions:
--Anthonyhcole (talk) 23:53, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Would someone like to perform the unblock? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 03:46, 13 February 2011 (UTC) Anyone? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:21, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
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User:David Tombe is being abused by me
I'd like to report myself for losing my ability to not respond nastily to David Tombe (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Can't we arrange for another year of two of physics topic ban for this guy? Dicklyon (talk) 05:46, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- Um -- this is a backhanded way of making a complaint, indeed. If you lose your own temper, have a cup of tea. Collect (talk) 08:54, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- I think it's magnificent actually. At one stroke Dicklyon admits his shortcomings and accepts any consequences for them, while at the same time focussing our attention upon the real villian, Mr. Tombe, who from a brief glance does look rather a nuisance. In fact it's so good I'm going to see what barnstar I can award the former. Egg Centric (talk) 17:05, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for understanding my mixed feelings, and for your cool barnstar. I have numerous times advised others to simply ignore David's nonsense, yet I seem to be unable to take my own advice. Dicklyon (talk) 18:35, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, you gave that advice on the cf page and I ignored it. I was wrong but I have now heeded it, you should too. Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:16, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for understanding my mixed feelings, and for your cool barnstar. I have numerous times advised others to simply ignore David's nonsense, yet I seem to be unable to take my own advice. Dicklyon (talk) 18:35, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- I think it's magnificent actually. At one stroke Dicklyon admits his shortcomings and accepts any consequences for them, while at the same time focussing our attention upon the real villian, Mr. Tombe, who from a brief glance does look rather a nuisance. In fact it's so good I'm going to see what barnstar I can award the former. Egg Centric (talk) 17:05, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- David is still under general probation, as listed at WP:Arbitration/Active sanctions. I've not been following the discussion at Talk:Centrifugal force but it looks like he exceeded the terms of that sanction a long time ago.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 18:56, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- If you would like admin action, e.g. a ban from Talk:Centrifugal force, then please present evidence that User:David Tombe has "repeatedly or seriously fail[ed] to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any normal editorial process or any expected standards of behavior and decorum". Fences&Windows 20:33, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- He two weeks ago posted some clearly incorrect physics (it's at the top of the talk page), was told by three different editors he was wrong, reminded of previous warnings on pushing his fringe ideas, and stopped. Only since then he's joined and started further discussions pushing the same incorrect physics, [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6],..., undeterred by further editors pointing out his errors. --JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 21:42, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- The simplest approach might be for any editor who thinks David Tombe is not adhering to proper standards to open a complaint at WP:Arbitration enforcement and ask for an appropriate sanction under his general probation, which was made indefinite by Arbcom. See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Speed of light#Remedies, item 6.2. EdJohnston (talk) 22:19, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- For those not familiar with the case that involved David Tombe (the Speed of light case, though centrifugal force was mentioned in the scope statement), the final decision is here. My reading (as a former arbitrator) of the general probation (which I voted for at the time as an arbitrator active on that case) is that this was intended to cover the uncivil behaviour mentioned in the other finding related to him. The fringe advocacy finding was dealt with by the physics topic ban remedy (which expired in October 2010). Reimposing the topic ban is something that might be simpler and quicker to take this straight to an amendment request (it depends on whether those active at arbitration enforcement think it is within their remit to renew an expired topic ban under the provisions of the still-existing general probation). My view is that it looks like David Tombe has returned to his previous ways, and that a topic ban should be reimposed, but that it should be ArbCom that is asked to rule on this, at an amendment request. David Tombe would have to demonstrate whether his behaviour has changed or not. Carcharoth (talk) 23:56, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- The simplest approach might be for any editor who thinks David Tombe is not adhering to proper standards to open a complaint at WP:Arbitration enforcement and ask for an appropriate sanction under his general probation, which was made indefinite by Arbcom. See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Speed of light#Remedies, item 6.2. EdJohnston (talk) 22:19, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- He two weeks ago posted some clearly incorrect physics (it's at the top of the talk page), was told by three different editors he was wrong, reminded of previous warnings on pushing his fringe ideas, and stopped. Only since then he's joined and started further discussions pushing the same incorrect physics, [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6],..., undeterred by further editors pointing out his errors. --JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 21:42, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- If you would like admin action, e.g. a ban from Talk:Centrifugal force, then please present evidence that User:David Tombe has "repeatedly or seriously fail[ed] to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any normal editorial process or any expected standards of behavior and decorum". Fences&Windows 20:33, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
This can go straight under the general probation, which does not seem to be limited to civility problems. Arbcom knows full well how to write a civility restriction, and the general probation here isn't one. It's more like a discretionary sanctions regime, and AE has routinely reimposed under those regimes arbcom-imposed topic bans that have since expired in cases of renewed misconduct, as far as I know.
Turning to the merits, it seems obvious to me that David Tombe is engaging in exactly the same type of behavior that got him sanctioned in the first place, in the same set of pages, no less. Therefore, in accordance with Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Speed of light#David Tombe restricted, David Tombe (talk · contribs) is hereby banned indefinitely from all articles, discussions, and other content related to physics, broadly construed across all namespaces. T. Canens (talk) 02:40, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Seems reasonable. Fences&Windows 03:29, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- It also seems to directly contradict Carcharoth's words: My view is that it looks like David Tombe has returned to his previous ways, and that a topic ban should be reimposed, but that it should be ArbCom that is asked to rule on this, at an amendment request. David Tombe would have to demonstrate whether his behaviour has changed or not. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 03:37, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- I take note of Carcharoth's comment, but the language of the Speed of light case explicitly allows admins to impose additional sanctions on David Tombe. (The remedies regarding Tombe were more strict than those applied to Brews ohare, since Brews' probation was for just one year, while Tombe's probation was made indefinite). Their decision states:
Arbcom used the phrase 'discretionary sanctions' a number of times in their decision. In fact, the log shows that Tznkai took an enforcement action in November, 2009 which imposed a further restriction on David Tombe. If David objects to this new topic ban from physics articles, the usual appeal process is open to him. He can take the matter to WP:AE, and if not satisfied with the response there, he can go to Arbcom. EdJohnston (talk) 04:21, 10 February 2011 (UTC)David Tombe (talk · contribs) is placed under a general probation indefinitely. Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions if, despite being warned, David Tombe repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any normal editorial process or any expected standards of behavior and decorum.
- Thank you Ed for clarifying. I would have preferred if Carcharoth was allowed to proceed on the plan to involve the Arbcom further before any action was taken. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 04:53, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- I did look at Carcharoth's comment. That's why I specifically discussed the probation's difference from civility restrictions - arbcom has a fixed formula for those as well: "X is subject to an editing restriction for Y. Should he make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be briefly blocked...". This is not one of them. T. Canens (talk) 06:00, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- I take note of Carcharoth's comment, but the language of the Speed of light case explicitly allows admins to impose additional sanctions on David Tombe. (The remedies regarding Tombe were more strict than those applied to Brews ohare, since Brews' probation was for just one year, while Tombe's probation was made indefinite). Their decision states:
- It also seems to directly contradict Carcharoth's words: My view is that it looks like David Tombe has returned to his previous ways, and that a topic ban should be reimposed, but that it should be ArbCom that is asked to rule on this, at an amendment request. David Tombe would have to demonstrate whether his behaviour has changed or not. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 03:37, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
In Talk:Centrifugal force, David is defending an alternative idea that there really is an actual force of separation between adjacent members of a centrifugally rotating material system and that the system can then be made to transfer angular momentum and associated kinetic energy away from the system due to the existence and occurrence of this Centrifugal force property. The other editors in this matter seem to want to be "left alone" from discussions concerning this aspect of the subject matter. Since the utility of the use of the subject matter is better understand the correct functioning of same, it seems reasonable that such a discussion should be a reasonable topic of discussion in a talk section.WFPM (talk) 17:18, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- I think 2+ years without a source that supports his POV was more than enough discussion, to justify some of us wanting to be "left alone" as you put it; and he never advanced the position that you just described; that must be your own POV. Actually, I don't think I've ever heard of a "centrifugally rotating material system", so don't know what you're referring to even. Dicklyon (talk) 06:15, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- There is a difference between debating alternative physics and theories (that is better done on various forums that are available around the internet, rather than on Wikipedia) and using talk pages to improve the associated article. From what I can see, there is far too much discussion of the physics rather than discussing the writing and improvement of the article. This is what was a problem before, hence the action taken here. Carcharoth (talk) 02:18, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Noting here that this is also being discussed at User talk:Timotheus Canens and User talk:David Tombe. It may be worth keeping an eye on those pages in case things get out of hand. I will be leaving a comment at the former page advising on what should be done here, but as an arbitration enforcement action has been taken, there is no need (yet) to discuss the matter here, so this thread can probably be closed. Carcharoth (talk) 02:15, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Charcharoth, With all due respect, I think we need to distinguish between the concept of 'alternative physics' on the one hand, and the fact that two alternative concepts of centrifugal force were being discussed on the talk page at centrifugal force. Alternative physics was not being discussed. David Tombe (talk) 14:27, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Charcharoth, Thanks for opening the debate surrounding the evidence which was presented. You have claimed that I was using the talk page to discuss physics, rather than for the purpose of discussing how to improve the article. And you hold up the diffs provided by John Blackburne as being evidence that I was promoting fringe ideas. Let's look at the very first diff provided by John Blackburne. It is this [7]. I was responding to an anonymous who had asked a question. I don't see where I have promoted any fringe ideas. I began by referring the anonymous to an excellent source which actually clarified some of the confusion surrounding the issue. Here is the source, [8]. It explains how Leibniz had deduced that centrifugal force is an outward inverse cube law force. But as is well known, there was an intense rivalry between Newton and Leibniz and when Newton saw Leibniz's equation, he criticized it and claimed that centrifugal force is the equal and opposite reaction to the centripetal force. The sources which the anonymous was producing were sources which related to the Newtonian viewpoint. But the Newtonian viewpoint is no longer the foremost viewpoint being taught nowadays at university. I don't see any misconduct on my part. It was a talk page discussion aimed at trying to improve the article, and that involved trying to establish some kind of understanding of the subject matter. In my opinion, dicklyon was being obstructive and on his own admission, he was being uncivil. The truth is that T. Canens engaged in a knee jerk reaction, and as we all know very well, those kind of knee jerk reactions, which are all too common, are never reversed. David Tombe (talk) 12:07, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- I am not really familiar with WP procedures but I was contributing to talk:centrifugal force and the subject "abuse of David Tombe" cropped up. It seems that another editor reported himself for an abuse and it ends with this David Tombe permanently banned from physics articles. Can this be right? I have now checked back and this is about contributions to a talk page. Do you approve of free speech in a talk page? This was all about merging articles on centrifugal force into one, and got mixed up with interpretations. David Tombe's contributions were all "polite" were they not? The only heated comments came from Dicklyon and they were really minor but he admitted he had lost his temper. What is going on? I also checked back about the earlier fracas and it seems to me the ban was then to close down discussion rather than because of a single immoderate or insulting remark. OK there is disagreement here echoing Newton and Leibniz, actually very interesting stuff and as I said in the talk page, we do not understand the cause of inertia so we must be humble rather than fixed in our views of what is a real force. Is gravity a real force? We don't understand that either . I for one feel that we are seeing an injustice here where one editor (dicklyon) gets annoyed and has another banned - indefinitely.Profstandwellback (talk) 19:18, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- The fundamental misunderstanding here is the idea that Wikipedia talk pages are somehow a place to debate what centrifugal force is, or is not (or whatever the topic of the page is). There is often a need for limited discussion of that nature, but it is important to bear in mind the need to keep such discussions limited and to focus discussions onto what edits need to be made to the page and what sources are appropriate. This doesn't mean discussing in depth the science behind what the sources say, but rather the talk page should be for discussing whether and how to present what the sources say. That might seem like the same thing, but there is a subtle and fundamental difference. In other words, Wikipedia article talk pages are not areas of free speech where opinions about the topic should be debated (though that does happen sometimes). This misunderstanding is clearly seen in the comment made by David Tombe here: "the topic is a centuries old controversy which was argued about by great masters such as Newton and Leibniz, and it would be a mistake to think that John Blackburne has the last word as regards what is correct and what is not correct in relation to centrifugal force". The aim of collaborating on a Wikipedia page on centrifugal force is not to come up with the last word on what is correct and what is not correct. The aim is to document what reliable sources say, and to cover some of the history, and put the rest of the history on the page about the history (see History of centrifugal and centripetal forces), and even there, the aim would be to summarise what historians of science have concluded, not to draw our own conclusions. It is very, very easy to cross the line and end up discussing the content (as you would in a forum), rather than discussing the article and what it should look like. There is even {{Not a forum}} that is put on talk pages explicitly to remind readers to avoid this conduct. For more on the community attitude to Wikipedia being treated as a forum, see the recent Village pump thread here. See also here and here. Carcharoth (talk) 23:42, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Carcharoth, You should have read the discussion before making a recommendation for a topic ban. Then you would have seen that it was indeed about how to reduce the content of five articles into one article. And if you think that the problem was that I was expressing my opinions on the topic, then so was everybody else in the discussion. As for John Blackburne, he wasn't even involved in the discussion. What is important here is that this thread has illustrated everything that is bad about wikipedia. Tim Song has acted arbitrarily on the back of rumour, without any investigation whatsoever, and he has summarily convicted without even giving the defendant a chance to defend himself. And it's not the fact that he has acted beyond his remit which is the problem here. It's the fact that the system has defended his actions and tried to argue that his actions were correct, even though everybody knows that his actions were badly wrong. Since when has it been acceptable to claim that a warning for one kind of behaviour is relevant to a warning for another kind of 'alleged' misbehaviour 15 months later? And there has been no evidence of misbehaviour presented. John Blackburne's opinions do not count as evidence. Ideally Tim Song should be de-sysoped for his actions. But experience shows that no such good fortune ever happens, and as such I have absolutely no intention whatsoever of appealing against this monumental farce. It is like England's goal against Germany at the world cup last summer. The whole world saw that it was a goal but the referee disallowed it. The decision was not overturned and England went into the second half demoralized. And so it is here. The priority is making sure that Tim Song doesn't lose face. And so be it. Let's end the pretence that there was even the remotest grain of legitimacy in his actions. David Tombe (talk) 12:07, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Firstly, it is polite to use people's current usernames. Secondly, since you have stated you have no intention of appealing, I suggest this thread is closed. I've explained why I think WP:NOT#FORUM applies here (the template is on that article talk page), and it applies to you more than others due to the previous arbitration case. I won't say more on that here, as that will just means things are going round in circles. Carcharoth (talk) 00:31, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Going around in circles is what Tombe does best. How many hours of pointless, endless discussion with and about him are going to go by before we finally decide enough is enough? I came to that decision about two years ago myself, over pretty much these same issues. ArbCom tried one of their "middle road" solutions and, surprise surprise, it failed. David, don't feel any need to reply to this as I will not be reading it. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:14, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Firstly, it is polite to use people's current usernames. Secondly, since you have stated you have no intention of appealing, I suggest this thread is closed. I've explained why I think WP:NOT#FORUM applies here (the template is on that article talk page), and it applies to you more than others due to the previous arbitration case. I won't say more on that here, as that will just means things are going round in circles. Carcharoth (talk) 00:31, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
The user has been blocked twice[9] for edit warring over this material.[10] Both before and after I reported it to the RS/N.[11]
MBG has once again returned to re-add the material[12]. MBG has once again reverted a user who removed it.[13].
I long ago gave reasons for why I removed the material. Here is a summary of the objections I had made up to when MBG was blocked for the first time. A dozen or so other editors criticised the material or removed it, but she reverted or ignored them all.
If Wikipedia means anything, this editor either needs to be warned off or blocked yet again. BillMasen (talk) 22:57, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- It seems a bit extreme to say that "if Wikipedia means anything," action needs to be brought against an editor who hasn't been here since before last Christmas. Dayewalker (talk) 23:05, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- I'm just saying that the clear consensus, in every case, was against this material. Surely re-adding it isn't acceptable? Or is someone going to have to sit on the page and clean it up every week or so?
- If you think you can reason with the editor concerned (after looking at these edits) that would be great. I presume you agree that MBG's contributions on this page aren't acceptable? BillMasen (talk) 23:10, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- Um, the editor in question hasn't edited ANY page since 23 December 2010...GiantSnowman 23:11, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- So when I revert back to the consensus version, and she undoes the edit, will it be a problem then? Hey ho... BillMasen (talk) 23:16, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- If that happens, then maybe there's an issue. At the moment, it isn't an issue, since they aren't reverting - or, indeed, making any edits at all. — Gavia immer (talk) 23:21, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Yep - revert back, and if/when she reappears and becomes disruptive, then it's a time to get admins involved - but presently there is no issue to be resolved. GiantSnowman 23:24, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- So when I revert back to the consensus version, and she undoes the edit, will it be a problem then? Hey ho... BillMasen (talk) 23:16, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- Um, the editor in question hasn't edited ANY page since 23 December 2010...GiantSnowman 23:11, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- If you think you can reason with the editor concerned (after looking at these edits) that would be great. I presume you agree that MBG's contributions on this page aren't acceptable? BillMasen (talk) 23:10, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- I have indefinitely blocked the account. Respectfully, I disagree with a wait and see approach in this situation given the history of the user. The contributor was blocked on July 7 for edit warring on the same article. The first and only edits she made after return were to resume edit warring, whereupon she was blocked again with a caution that further such activities would result in further sanctions. Her first and only edits after return from that block (albeit delayed by some months) were to immediately resume edit warring, including reverting the contributor who reverted her. If blocks were punative, there'd be no point in blocking months after the fact. But they're preventative, and there is every reason to believe that this contributor intends to ignore consensus and continue pushing her point of view at her leisure. An indef-block, of course, can be overturned by any plausible indication that she understands that this is unacceptable behavior and will stop. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:56, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Horrible block. Nothing in contributions that would support an indef block. Support unblock. -Atmoz (talk) 18:00, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Repeatedly edit warring to restore the same material that got her blocked twice, somehow that doesn't support an indef block? Do remember indef is not forever, just until they agree to stop the edit warring. Support the block. Corvus cornixtalk 18:50, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Good block. This user's only contributions to Wikipedia over the last six months have been to continue the same old edit war. Two previous blocks of escalating duration failed to drive home the point that this conduct is inappropriate. An unblock can be considered if this editor demonstrates an interest in contributing constructively to Wikipedia and a commitment to avoid the edit warring in the fugure. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:21, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Best block ever made. Clearly preventing disruption, indefinite is not infinite, if they wish to be unblocked and be allowed to edit they can engage in discussion on their talk page and give an account of their actions. --Jayron32 02:20, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Thank you.
To those who think there is no problem here; the user never would have been blocked at all if an admin had stepped in and warned MBG earlier on about POV-pushing (note the first two times she was blocked, I didn't even ask for a block). BillMasen (talk) 18:50, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- One problem BillMasen, albeit a small one, is that you overused bolding on your comments at Talk:Stereotypes of white people. You make your points on that talk page quite well without it. -- llywrch (talk) 19:09, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- You're seriously nitpicking someone for how they format their text? Go outside. Jtrainor (talk) 20:20, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Llywrch, thank you for taking the time to read it. :)
- The bold doesn't look to nice; the reason I put it was because I wanted to restate objections I'd previously made as well as make new ones, and I wanted to differentiate the old and new remarks. I didn't want to rewrite the whole thing and I didn't want to be accused of changing what I had said in the past. BillMasen (talk) 14:15, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- You're seriously nitpicking someone for how they format their text? Go outside. Jtrainor (talk) 20:20, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Disruptive Behavior by User: Mad Doggin 7 / 65.254.165.214
The user Mad Doggin 7 (also posts under the IP address 65.254.165.214, which is clearly the same person) has repeatedly disrupted the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Black_Rock_Shooter_characters. Over several months he has unilaterally reverted several community members' edits countless times to place his unsourced, extremely poor quality information (his story has also changed to very different but equally poor information despite him claiming the same source). This information is in direct contradiction to community concensus and provided official sources. When asked to provide links or verification regarding his sources or evidence, he has repeatedly explicitly refused to do so, stating that he is above the need to provide verification.
Not only this, but he has repeatedly threatened other users on the article's Talk Page who disagree with him with bans/blocks that he has no authority over. He has even explicitly lied about the administrator privileges of another user in an attempt to intimidate other users. This is explicitly prohibited as noted under: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:TPNO#Behavior_that_is_unacceptable
I laid out a well formulated argument on the talk page (which he frequents): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_Black_Rock_Shooter_characters, in which I cited and provided links to many official sources (including the media's creator which he supposedly cites) and addressed his claims. I also warned him of his disruptive behavior and Wikipedia policy violations, with direct links to the policy pages. He has chosen to ignore this, and instead continued his reverts under his alternate IP address/account 65.254.165.214 (a quick look at the address' history reveals that this is obviously the same person) without bothering to respond or provide any sources as he has consistently done so in the past.
I recommend immediate action be taken to prevent further disruption by this user. As demonstrated over the last several months, he has no intention of stopping or providing any evidence, despite being warned to do so. Investigation into the IP address reveals a history of disrupting other articles as well. CannikinX (talk) 23:51, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- (Still awaiting administrator feedback). It has now been more than
2448 hours since this thread was started with no comment or action. I am posting just to make sure this does not get prematurely archived. Though this article may be of "low priority", it would be greatly appreciated if there were some acknowledgement that this situation has at least been reviewed by a member of the administrative staff. Further investigation into this user's history reveals that it was deemed necessary by administrators to block him for his behavior in the past. CannikinX (talk) 00:25, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Kenatipo, WP:OUTING violation
[14], Kenatipo is posting information that he claims refers to me that I have not publicly released on this site. This is an attempted outing under the WP:OUTING outing policy, which I note is considered a serious violation of the WP:NPA policy. I ask that this be removed from wikipedia permanently immediately under the WP:Oversight policy as well as proper steps to block this user be taken. WMO 06:46, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- I have sent in a request to RFO. I recommend that you steer clear of Kenatipo. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 06:58, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Suppressed now, per policy - Alison ❤ 07:02, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for that swift action, now can we get an admin to take some further action per policy? WMO 07:04, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks Alison, seen this and got your email at the same time. Neat. :) - Neutralhomer • Talk • 07:06, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for that swift action, now can we get an admin to take some further action per policy? WMO 07:04, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Suppressed now, per policy - Alison ❤ 07:02, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
I neither know nor care what Salegi's sexual preferences are. I could not possibly have outed him. --Kenatipo speak! 15:38, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Which is why Oversight deleted the difference, right? That's just blatant lying right there. WMO 19:16, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Doesn't "outing" have something to do with a person's sexual orientation? --Kenatipo speak! 19:37, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- No, but it has something to do with a WP:COMPETENCE block I can see in your very near future. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:42, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Doesn't "outing" have something to do with a person's sexual orientation? --Kenatipo speak! 19:37, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
WikiManOne, I would like to apologize to you for the names I called you. I am sorry I did that. It was not appropriate for me to do that, and I apologize. A lot of useless friction could have been avoided had I googled your old username sooner, instead of last night. Which brings us to my note to Moonriddengirl -- I was only trying to explain to her my behavior in suddenly walking away from further interaction with you. Your age, as indicated on your own outside websites, was the determining factor in my decision. "Outing" you, in any sense of the word, was the last thing on my mind and not my intention at all. I also apologize to you for embarassing you in that regard. Sincerely, --Kenatipo speak! 20:24, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Still an attempted violation of WP:OUTING, an egregious one I might add. Yes, you are correct that you did call me a bunch of inappropriate names multiple times which was a violation of WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF. So four policies/guidelines violated. That's all there is to it, administrator, please? WMO Please leave me a wb if you reply 06:21, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- What is it that you want done? Please see the blocking policy - blocks are to prevent disruption, not to punish. What disruption is there to prevent here? The user seems unlikely to out you again. --B (talk) 12:53, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- It would prevent him from constantly removing the {{noindex}} tags from his Sandbox pages, for one thing. --CalendarWatcher (talk) 13:13, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Which is another thing that I have clearly shown him the policy for and he refuses to stop removing them. I quote from the WP:NPA policy:
- "Lesser personal attacks often result in a warning, and a request to refactor. If a pattern of lesser personal attacks continues despite the warning, escalating blocks may follow, typically starting with 24 hours."
- I would say this is a serious personal attack, not a lesser one but even a lesser attack generally starts blocks starting with 24 hours, which he has already had a 24 hour block for personal attacks, so this should bring an escalating block. WMO Please leave me a wb if you reply 19:46, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Which is another thing that I have clearly shown him the policy for and he refuses to stop removing them. I quote from the WP:NPA policy:
- It would prevent him from constantly removing the {{noindex}} tags from his Sandbox pages, for one thing. --CalendarWatcher (talk) 13:13, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- What is it that you want done? Please see the blocking policy - blocks are to prevent disruption, not to punish. What disruption is there to prevent here? The user seems unlikely to out you again. --B (talk) 12:53, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
My apology to WikiManOne still holds, no matter what happens to me or my userpages here. --Kenatipo speak! 16:42, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- As a point of information, WMO did practically identify himself on wiki. I was able to find an online profile with the real name in seconds, by using information he himself posted at one point or another. If he is concerned about his identity he needs to do a better job keeping it a secret. Can old edits of his be oversighted so we don't have to hear about this again? In the end this appears to me to be more of the same. These editors have been cluttering up ANI for the last week trying to get each other blocked or banned. WP:BATTLEGROUND is apparently meaningless around here. I say block all the instigators on either side of the ideological divide. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 21:57, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Just to be clear here. When I read this ANI, I was then able to find the afore mentioned personal information in seconds. I have never previously tried to find it. Indeed, until the recent spate ANI postings I'd never heard of any of these editors. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 22:40, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
User:Onetonycousins more personal attacks
This user has a number of blocks for personal attacks but still continues [15] Gnevin (talk) 11:55, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Hope you don't mind Gnevin but i adjusted your link to show the edit summary which is the source of the personal attack, it just showed the article and that it was an old version edited by Onetonycousins. Just to add user in question did refer to a reliably sourced addition to an article as "Useless propaganda". Hows its propaganda is another question. User despite two previous blocks appears to still think demeaning edit summaries are permissable on Wikipedia. Mabuska (talk) 23:53, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
"Just to add user in question did refer to a reliably sourced addition to an article as Useless propaganda. Hows its propaganda is another question." A stalker and a genius. Believe it or not, "Hows its propaganda" is the question. Maybe ask the IP who thought it was "pointless". Onetonycousins (talk) 10:29, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Not my fault that this page is in my watch list and your name appears once again for personal attacks and the like. Though you should know the answer to your question seeing as it was you who said it was propaganda. Mabuska (talk) 11:30, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Personal attack while reporting a ANI case. [16] Gnevin (talk) 01:03, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
I have WP:3O on my watchlist and noticed a listing at [[17]] by User:Jeffro77 in regards to Cairns, Queensland. The discussion between User:Bidgee on one side, and User:Jeffro77 (with a single contribution by User:BorisG) had become extremely heated. User:Bidgee's contributions were clearly uncivil.
At the same time, I became aware that Bidgee included a reference to me on his/her userpage which was becoming a little shrine to the people with whom s/he had had disagreements (Jeffro77 got the same treatment at [[18]]), stating that I "had a POV" and "couldn't handle the truth". I removed this personal attack at [[19]] and warned Bidgee for the personal attack. He reverted and reworded it, but it was still unacceptable so I reverted and warned again and notified him/her of my intent to bring the issue here at [[20]]
I have had run ins with Bidgee before, most recently because he inappropriately used a personal attacks warning template on a new user, User:MelbourneStar1 at [[21]]. MelbourneStar1 did not personally attack Bidgee any more than Bidgee him/herself did, visible at [[22]] and the edit summaries for the Severe_Tropical_Cyclone_Yasi history at [[23]]. S/he reflexively warned me for inappropriate template use at [[24]] (this reflexive counterwarning was also conducted on User:Jeffro77 at [[25]] in response to Jeffro's warning on Bidgee at [[26]]).
The discussion in regards to User:MelbourneStar1 continued at my page, in the second half of User_talk:Danjel#Top_Ryde_Shopping_Centre_not_largest_shopping_centre_nor_largest_development.
User:Bidgee has a history of removing edits to his/her talk page highlighting his/her misbehaviour but continuing the behaviour anyway. These are some examples in order from most recent:
I'm sure there are more. I only looked at the most recent 500 edits to the page.
I would like any reference to me removed from Bidgee's shrine. Bidgee is an extremely uncivil editor, and I think a reminder from up on high about the requirements for people to be civil would be great.
I'm not saying I'm an angel. I'm definitely not, but... Wow. WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL, WP:BITE, WP:3RR, WP:USETEMP in regards to inappropriate template use. I at least pretend to be nice.</jovial> I'm notifying all users mentioned above. -danjel (talk to me) 13:10, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- User:Bidgee removed mention of Cyclone Yasi from the list of notable cyclones that have affected the Cairns region at Cairns, Queensland (with the irrelevant claim that effects on Cairns were not notable because other places were worse-affected).[31][32][33]
- After he repeatedly reverted mention of the cyclone, I posted a 3RR warning on his User Talk page,[34], which he immediately deleted.[35] He responded by posting a 3RR warning on my Talk page[36] (I had reverted his edit twice[37][38]; I had also made this earlier edit—not a revert—in which I removed the redundant commented statement, because Cyclone Yasi was still correctly mentioned before and after my edit.) and suggested there were no sources indicating that Cyclone Yasi had a notable affect on Cairns[39] (compare Google search for Cyclone Yasi Cairns). I provided sources indicating that Yasi had an impact on the Cairns region.[40][41]
- I initially (incorrectly) stated that he had breached the 3RR,[42] rather than merely reaching 3 reverts, to which the user responded aggressively at the article Talk page[43] in addition to a personal attack about me on his User page,[44][45] which I attempted to remove, citing WP:TALKO.[46][47] I also added a Third Opinion request about the original content dispute.[48][49]
- After realising he had only reached the 3 reverts, I reworded the incorrect statements[50][51][52] and removed his personal attack about me from his User page.[53][54][55] User:Bidgee has restored the attack, claiming it was "not personal"[56] and that he had not "claimed there were not sources for the effect Cyclone Yasi had on the Cairns region".[57] However, if that were genuinely the case, there would be no contention with listing Cyclone Yasi in the Cairns article as "a notable cyclone that affected the Cairns region".[58]
- When he saw the 3O request, User:Danjel also indicated similar difficulties in dealing with User:Bidgee.[59] User:Danjel thereafter warned the user about personal attacks[60] and attempted to remove User:Bidgee's comments about him.[61] See Talk:Cairns, Queensland#Yasi.--Jeffro77 (talk) 13:24, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
First, can I just point this edit out? Anyways, I dealt with Bidgee a little bit. There was a discussion in the WPTC that seemed to reach a conclusion ([62]), so I went ahead and started moving articles to the more common title. Bidgee posts on the Australian notice board, claiming I was moving it to a less common name, despite the discussion we had. Bidgee went ahead and unilaterally reverted some of the moves I made [63] [64] Around that time, Bidgee got into the discussion, but IMO was ignoring the developing consensus, even calling my analysis of the data useless. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 05:43, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- When I first had a look at he/r discussion page, I was pleasently surprised to see that she was not the subject to violations, there were many editors thanking he/r, It was as if everyone liked her. The "View History" on her talk page, unfortunatley, told me another story. S/he has reverted so many notices, warnings, etc. She has kept all of the "Thank you's" or "Can you help.." or the awards, but has kept a big bulk her/his history reverted to only be viewed in the View History section.
- Prior to having an issue with this user, i though of he/r as a strong user, a 'Leader', But all s'he wants, is to be the boss. To get the last word. S/he has used profanity before to get her/his own way [[65], as well as notice templates on other users talk pages to satisfy her own agenda. I have been on Wikipedia since the 17th of Decemeber 2010, so a substantial amount of time, I know rights from wrongs...accusing another editor of being disruptive after 2 small edits (that had references) [66] and then getting smacked with a 'stop attacking' template on my talk page [67] after trying to defend myself [68], Is all wrong. I had apologised to her/him for my actions (which were'nt as bad as hers/his actions) [69] (Feb6) and still have not gotten a reply, with her/his excuse being 'busy'...when her/his contributions log shows that s/he has been editing pages and talking with other users. It is disrespectful, and I honestly take my apology back.
- We all make mistakes, I am sure admins now and than make them too. It is normal. We're all human, but this user on the other hand just keeps on making them as well as blaming them on others. This is not what Wikipedia is about. It is atrocious that there are users like her/he on here. Someone has to set her into place, tell her/him what s/he is doing is wrong.
- I don't want to ever cross her again because I'm 100% certain that she'll stick the issue (our conversation) right onto her/his user page so everyone can see, as s/he has done before, and is currently doing now. [70] I don't think that there are many Bullies on Wikipedia, but I think I may of crossed one. A major one. -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk) 09:11, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- This seems like more of a case for WP:DR, specifically WP:RFC/U. Strange Passerby (talk • contribs • Editor review) 10:30, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- There's no content under dispute here, except in regards to Bidgee's shrine to all those who disagree with him/her, which s/he won't allow anyone to remove. More problematically, while Jeffro and myself have actively tried to get Bidgee to remove the content, there's been no contribution to discussion from Bidgee's side. I doubt that Bidgee would participate in an WP:RFC/U. -danjel (talk to me) 11:12, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Danjel, the disputed User page content is within the scope of the User RFC, and is central to the purpose of raising it.--Jeffro77 (talk) 11:40, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- OK, I've endorsed your post there. -danjel (talk to me) 11:47, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Rather than griping about alleged personal attacks, you would be better off trying to address the content issues that Bidgee raises, and see if you all can reach some consensus. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:39, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- That has been attempted. Refer to Talk:Cairns, Queensland#Yasi.--Jeffro77 (talk) 11:41, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Working with Bidgee has been attempted repeatedly. -danjel (talk to me) 11:47, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, to be honest, mostly what I see are discussions where both sides have been escalating things - Bidgee may not always be right, but his stance is normally defensible, yet I see few non-aggressive attempts to resolve anything. Edit warring, templated warnings, and discussions through edit summaries don't tend to fix problems.
- I note that the current version of his user page is somewhat less intense than the old version - personally I never liked those sorts of "collections" on user pages, but it does seem that he's made steps to alleviate some of the problems prior to AN/I. Is the current version still unacceptable? - Bilby (talk) 12:16, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, the current version is unacceptable. My statements about his edits are factual as is demonstrated on the Cairns Talk page. When an editor requested that Bidgee not post statements about that editor on Bidgee's User page, Bidgee claimed that editor was "harassing" him[71]. Bidgee's attitude and behaviour therein are ridiculous. Danjel and other editors have indicated that Bidgee's behaviour at the Cairns article have not been the only problem.--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:24, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Using the Cairns article as an example, Bidgee was using a different understanding to what a "notable" cyclone in regard to Cairns was. That's fine, and clearly consensus was on your side in the end. However, there wasn't a clear consensus when you added your edit, which didn't include a source. You were reverted, with a request to take it to talk. So you made a comment, and reverted it back. The two of you went back and forth, and each time you added the same and Bidgee requested discussion or a source. At no point during this did you or Bidgee make another comment on the talk page, and it culminated in an exchange of templated warnings - you to Bidgee for 3RR, followed Bidgee to you for adding unsourced material and 3RR.
- My point isn't that Bidgee was right, but that looking through the history I see two seemingly stubborn editors butting heads as they get progressively more annoyed with each other. It is very hard to apportion blame - at any point either of you could have stopped reverting and looked to a better path for dispute resolution, but neither did.
- In regard to behaviour about the user page, I agree that the content was inappropriate. However, the attempt to resolve the problem seems to have been conducted solely through more templated warnings, by you and Danjel, and comments made through edit summaries on his talk. Maybe I'm missing something, but again, when someone is annoyed, this isn't the best path to solving the problem - even if you are (as I think you were) in the right. - Bilby (talk) 13:02, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I provided sources at Talk indicating that Cairns was affected in a notable way (diffs already above). After I reverted twice, I did not revert again, and warned Bidgee about the 3RR rule. Bidgee ignored the sources, based on his own superfluous interpretation that for the cyclone to have a 'notable affect' that it must cause 'severe damage'. If the Cairns article were the only article involved, this would probably not need to be addressed here (or User RFC), but the reports of other editors' separate dealings with Bidgee in addition to Bidgee's behaviour at his User and Talk pages indicate there to be a larger problem.--Jeffro77 (talk) 13:57, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, those sources were only provided after you edit warred to include the content. You added sources to the discussion almost an hour after you started adding the unsourced material to the article, and not until after you had warned Bidgee and Bidgee had warned you in return. My issue is not that you were in the wrong - although you should have provided sources rather than edit warring to include unsourced material - but that you, as much as Bidgee, could have tried some form of resolution beyond edit warring and templated warnings. - Bilby (talk) 14:12, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I provided sources at Talk indicating that Cairns was affected in a notable way (diffs already above). After I reverted twice, I did not revert again, and warned Bidgee about the 3RR rule. Bidgee ignored the sources, based on his own superfluous interpretation that for the cyclone to have a 'notable affect' that it must cause 'severe damage'. If the Cairns article were the only article involved, this would probably not need to be addressed here (or User RFC), but the reports of other editors' separate dealings with Bidgee in addition to Bidgee's behaviour at his User and Talk pages indicate there to be a larger problem.--Jeffro77 (talk) 13:57, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- At User_talk:Danjel#User:Bidgee there was a discussion involving Bidgee and his/her interaction with MelbourneStar1 (in particular his unwarranted warning on MelbourneStar1). The discussion basically went nowhere with Bidgee sticking to his/her guns. The critical point that Bidgee was also in the wrong went completely ignored with Bidgee preferring to concentrate on MelbourneStar1's actions. It was a good case of "well so-and-so didn't follow the rules, so I don't have to either". I'm a teacher. I get that a lot. -danjel (talk to me) 13:04, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Again, I agree that Bidgee made a mistake with this warning to MoriningStar1 - it was inappropriate. But your response, of giving Bidgee a templated warning about the misuse of templated warnings, wasn't going to fix things. My point isn't that Bidgee was right - I just keep seeing people trying to solve problems with warnings, edit summaries and aggressive statements, (including in that discussion), and I'm unsurprised that there hasn't been a satisfactory resolution. I'm not sure that there could have been, of course. Anyway, I guess we'll see where the RFC/U goes. - Bilby (talk) 13:22, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, the current version is unacceptable. My statements about his edits are factual as is demonstrated on the Cairns Talk page. When an editor requested that Bidgee not post statements about that editor on Bidgee's User page, Bidgee claimed that editor was "harassing" him[71]. Bidgee's attitude and behaviour therein are ridiculous. Danjel and other editors have indicated that Bidgee's behaviour at the Cairns article have not been the only problem.--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:24, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Danjel, the disputed User page content is within the scope of the User RFC, and is central to the purpose of raising it.--Jeffro77 (talk) 11:40, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Outing in an AFD thread
Scamwarning (talk · contribs) has outed another editor in this edit at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ilyas Kaduji. As a new user, Scamwarning may not be aware of the restrictions, but the edit needs to be redacted anyway. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 14:15, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Not sure about this one -- editor is apparently using his own full name
, which is linked to the article subject.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:17, 11 February 2011 (UTC)- Just by the by, I've also listed this page in the BLP noticeboard as I'm concerned where this is going--ThePaintedOne (talk) 14:27, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Looking at it, and not wishing to confirm or deny an outing, the scamuser editor has only suggested that this agency might have the subject as a client, and there is no apparent link (unless you've seen something I haven't). So there is no particular reason to think that name given is the same person as the one working at the agency, nor that the agency is related to the subject. --ThePaintedOne (talk) 14:43, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Note: the bellow is also discussed here. It makes sad reading. Egg Centric (talk) 17:49, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
I was also outed in a thread; I'd like this edit to be redacted. — Timneu22 · talk 14:40, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment)The diff you provided only mentions you by your username. I'm not seeing any violation of WP:OUTING in the short statement. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (talk) 23:04, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Please note the name of the page being AfD'd. — Timneu22 · talk 02:21, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I have removed the comment, but as a non admin. Still available in history. I've also notified the admin who made it so they can decide if they want to put it back etc Egg Centric (talk) 12:21, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- And I reverted your change. It's not "outing", and besides which, it was posted by an admin who certainly would not "out" someone. Don't mess with other users' comments. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:35, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see how it can be anything other than outing, but no worries. However, I reserve the right to alter other people's comments when I believe policy permits me to. If I turn out to be wrong it's no biggy... Egg Centric (talk) 12:38, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Suspicioning that one user ID might be the sock of another is not "outing". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:41, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Before I read that comment I did not know the real life identity of Timneu22. Now I do (or think I do, which is the same thing according to the outing policy). Egg Centric (talk) 12:44, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- If the guy calls himself by a variation of a public figure's name, and calls attention to that fact, then he has basically outed himself. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:48, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I never called attention to myself. A poor admin user did. It's a clear case of outing. — Timneu22 · talk 12:49, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- You called attention to it in this very section. There are plenty of users who adopt names that pertain to public figures. Most of them probably aren't that public figure themselves, and the ones who are don't admit that they are unless they are engaged in blatant self-promotion. If you've admitted here to being that public figure, then you have outed yourself. And if you are not that public figure, then what's the problem? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:54, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I never called attention to myself. A poor admin user did. It's a clear case of outing. — Timneu22 · talk 12:49, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- If the guy calls himself by a variation of a public figure's name, and calls attention to that fact, then he has basically outed himself. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:48, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Before I read that comment I did not know the real life identity of Timneu22. Now I do (or think I do, which is the same thing according to the outing policy). Egg Centric (talk) 12:44, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Suspicioning that one user ID might be the sock of another is not "outing". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:41, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see how it can be anything other than outing, but no worries. However, I reserve the right to alter other people's comments when I believe policy permits me to. If I turn out to be wrong it's no biggy... Egg Centric (talk) 12:38, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- And I reverted your change. It's not "outing", and besides which, it was posted by an admin who certainly would not "out" someone. Don't mess with other users' comments. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:35, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I have removed the comment, but as a non admin. Still available in history. I've also notified the admin who made it so they can decide if they want to put it back etc Egg Centric (talk) 12:21, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Please note the name of the page being AfD'd. — Timneu22 · talk 02:21, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Not only is this not outing, Tim already made the connection between himself and the account in the copyright notice for this MediaWiki extension. Daniel Case (talk) 15:35, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Come on, Daniel. Admit your mistake. Anyone had to go digging for any of this information until you did what you did in the AfD. Just admit it. — Timneu22 · talk 16:22, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- It is not outing to accuse a user of SP. It may be ABF and PA (but as tyhe user appears to have adminted it this is not the case). Also I would aske are you still retired?Slatersteven (talk) 16:41, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- No, but by saying the socking was in the context of a vanity article the connection is far more obvious than it otherwise would have been. On the other hand, given the user has provided their real life identity in other parts of the project they have less of a cause for complaint. Mind you, then again I gave my age and occuption on my original talk page; just because it's visible to any admin I wouldn't want it putting all over the project... I really do feel there is wikilawyering going on by both sides here - whatever the technical definition it definitely was from a duck perspective unneccessary outing - but does Timneu22 actually care about that or is he trying to score points? Egg Centric (talk) 17:28, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- "Anyone had to go digging for any of this information until you did what you did in the AfD." As I've said before, reread security through obscurity. If you wanted to prevent this exposure, the onus was on you, all the time. As you've said elsewhere, it's your fault for using the same username not only here but on YouTube and several other places. Daniel Case (talk) 19:13, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- See also open fields doctrine. Daniel Case (talk) 19:14, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry but regardless of what the policy says, and I'm dubious if this was really taken to the floor rather than a thread no one is reading that consensus would go your way (but I defer to your assertion that it wouldn't regardless) shining a light on what was once hard to find is still very much morally outing. Egg Centric (talk) 19:19, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- This had originally been discussed where it should have been, on SPI. Because we didn't have enough evidence at the time and because people seemed to be unclear about it, it was decided to do the safe thing and not only close the SPI but delete it.
I agree that it wouldn't look nice if it had come up in a content dispute where it was irrelevant otherwise, but how else are you supposed to prove a COI? (unfortunately policy on outing does not recognize what everyone seems to agree is allowed). "shining a light on what was once hard to find" is very much in keeping with Wikipedia policy in that transparency helps ensure accountability. It is not enough to say "You weren't supposed to look ..." Daniel Case (talk) 23:58, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I think the bottom line is that if someone outs himself, even if in a relatively obscure way, then he's got nothing to complain about. It's a different story if sensitive personal information is posted, especially with the intent to harm, which this wasn't. I should also add that the user Egg Centric acted in good faith in this process, and has stimulated useful discussion about it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:07, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
- This had originally been discussed where it should have been, on SPI. Because we didn't have enough evidence at the time and because people seemed to be unclear about it, it was decided to do the safe thing and not only close the SPI but delete it.
- Sorry but regardless of what the policy says, and I'm dubious if this was really taken to the floor rather than a thread no one is reading that consensus would go your way (but I defer to your assertion that it wouldn't regardless) shining a light on what was once hard to find is still very much morally outing. Egg Centric (talk) 19:19, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- It is not outing to accuse a user of SP. It may be ABF and PA (but as tyhe user appears to have adminted it this is not the case). Also I would aske are you still retired?Slatersteven (talk) 16:41, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Issue
On Amrish Puri, Winston786 added information without adding a WP:Reliable Source after final warning. User has recently come back from a one week block over this issue. He has had warnings over several articles from me and other users over adding WP:Reliable Source, here, here, here, here, and finally he has made changes to here again without adding references. Thanks--SH 16:07, 11 February 2011 (UTC)--SH 16:07, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- The Ranbir Kapoor page is great example of what has happened. See the Talk page here, fascinating. Thanks --SH 17:30, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Here is a list of where this user does not post WP:Reliable Sources, and on many occaisions goes against the source:
- here
- here which contradicts this
- here
- here
- here he undid a reliable source.
- here he seems to have an objection to Urdu.
- here he contradicts the reliable source.
- here he seems to have a strange objection against reliable sources.
- here he deletes what the reliable source says "When Hindus crack this joke, they are oblivious to the fact that had the Sikhs not intervened, their womenfolk would have been dishonoured and taken into exile.". This looks like WP:Censorship too.
- here, he removes content that I have typed on the Administrators notice board.
- Note the WP:Competence and WP:Reliable Source raised by an Administrator here
- He has had a another block this time for 2 weeks for breaking the WP:3RR rule here
- Thanks --SH 18:30, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Any interested parties might like to read the discussion on my talk page. --Diannaa (Talk) 16:25, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Response
I didn't add it(on Amrish Puri page), I RE-added it, it was taken off by IP 115.188.244.146 on 12th January 2011, it was there earlier. User:Sikh-history, who is consistently stalking only my edits didn't check it and reverted it blindly. I have added sources(and provided better ones, when asked for) in all the disputed pages.
- This case was settled as I immediately provided the reliable source.
- This I have already mentioned.
- This ended up with other user tagging what I added, which was a "fact".Winston786 (talk) 16:30, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
User:Sikh-history himself have been adding unsourced data on pages. His edit history will let you know his obsession with me and is consistent stalking of my edits. Thank You. Winston786 (talk) 16:30, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
My explaination
- This is a fact
- This is a fact
- here User:Sikh-history seems to have extra love for Urdu.
- here I did not do it.
- This explained above
- here not contradicting, infact adding
- This I did not, wrote EXACTLY whats written in the source
- here User:Sikh-history seems to have extra love for Punjab.
- here User:Sikh-history adding his POV unlike whats written "where they killed 1.5 lakh people, both Hindus and Muslims. He headed homewards almost immediately, taking back incredible loot gold, jewelry, elephants, horses, camels, skilled labourers and, as is usual in war, women" Winston786 (talk) 12:30, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Further Comments
User:Sikh-history seems to have a pro Punjab and pro Sikh bias and a little anti Hindu bias in his editions, also the user seems to be madly obsessed with me, most of his/her recent edits are the one which follow my edits on a particular page, there are too many such incidents to call it a co-incidence. He/She started editing those pages only after I edited them, so them being on his/her watchlist doesn't really hold too much ground Thank You.Winston786 (talk) 18:43, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, I am a Hindu convert to Sikhism originally from Haryana, and have lived in Punjab, not that it is relevant, but then again you must remember to WP:Assume Good Faith. Thanks--SH 18:50, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- The user seems to have a religious history which could be a reason for his supposed bias. Winston786 (talk) 18:56, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- That is bordering on racism my friend, it is like saying because I am black, I have a chip on my shoulder, or because I am a Jew I hate Muslims. Accusations like that are not cool man.--SH 09:04, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, I am a Hindu convert to Sikhism originally from Haryana, and have lived in Punjab, not that it is relevant, but then again you must remember to WP:Assume Good Faith. Thanks--SH 18:50, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Is the page User:Augustusguarin a violation of our licenses?
Is the use page User:Augustusguarin itself a violation of our licenses? It seems to be a translation of Dot-com bubble to another language, which I think is probably Tagalog. However, there is nothing to attribute it to Dot-com bubble. Could someone please help? What should be done with it? Should it be deleted, or should someone encourage this user to send this article to the Tagalog Wikipedia if it has no such corresponding article (after properly attributing it to us, first)? Jesse Viviano (talk) 18:21, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- I forgot to mention that this page is getting into content categories it has no business being in. Jesse Viviano (talk) 18:26, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- If they want to transwiki something, userspace doesn't seem inappropriate to do that. I did comment out the categories. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:31, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- See Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia. Attribution can (and should) be provided after the fact; this should take care of that. –xenotalk 20:59, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Tagalog and Filipino are the same language according to what I can find. Jesse Viviano (talk) 21:00, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- I removed it from search engines. Wikipedia is not a free web host, and it's the English Wikipedia, not the Tagalog one. They should be doing this on the Tagalog one, but maybe there's no rule against it. A subpage would be even better. Otherwise it's probably a good faith attempt. -- Brangifer (talk) 07:32, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
131.204.254.72's edits
An anonymous IP, 131.204.254.72 (talk), which is registered to Auburn University, has been making unilateral decisions to convert college athletic templates' color schemes. The person who keeps doing this at that IP address has been warned about it and re-warned about it, yet continues to make (some good, but too-frequently detrimental) color scheme changes. Some of the issues that concern me, and apparently at least one or two other users (on record), are:
- The lack of consensus with the color changes
- Inverting a school's primary and secondary colors sometimes
- This person's false belief that all navbox titles have to have white font (they don't)
- Many of the edits by this IP make the visibility very poor, much of which can be attributed to reason #3 above
- There has not once been an edit summary by this IP
- Last, but not least, is this IP's absolute refusal to acknowledge any concerns and questions left on his talk page; we can therefore only assume he is overtly ignoring us
I may be out of line with this request, but I am proposing something along the lines of a two- or three-week block for this IP until he gets the point. If his unilateral editing persists, then impose a new, lengthier block, and so on. Sometimes, editors with the best intentions who think they're improving Wikipedia are the ones who weaken it, which I believe to be the case here. Jrcla2 (talk) 01:35, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Comment: This has been my limited experience with the IP as well. The templates I watch have had some changes that I thought were OK (didn't make the template worse but didn't greatly improve it either), but inevitably the editor changed all font colors to white even though white isn't a primary color of the school (it isn't even listed as a secondary) and then had white font over golden background, which is far less visible than the navy blue that was already there (and restored). No edit summaries at all and no response on the talk page. None of the templates that I watch actually needed any colors changed for visibility issues either. I certainly assume good faith, but if there is no response, we really don't have much of a choice but to put some kind of block or protection. I'd prefer the editor simply respond and at least provide some kind of rationale for his/her edits. --JonRidinger (talk) 03:11, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- These are the main diffs on Template:Kent State University:
- Changed background and main title font to white (I kept some of the edits, but restored the title to golden)
- Changed remaining body text to white even though it was on a golden-colored background (Reverted back to blue for visibility)
- Diffs on Template:Kent State bowl games
- Same thing changing title to white even though that isn't a primary or even secondary color (Reverted since white isn't a primary or secondary color)
- None of the IP's edits have edit summaries. --JonRidinger (talk) 03:19, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Comment two or three weeks seems excessive. WMO Please leave me a wb if you reply 03:14, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Comment A quick look at that IP's talk page and it is quite conceivable, indeed probable, this is a proxy server or something shared beteween god knows how many other users. Therefore whoever is making the edits quite likely didn't get the message themselves. Perhaps best to do a block that would be lifted once they acknowledge having seen the message? Egg Centric (talk) 21:59, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed my university (of a little more than 12,000) funnels all its internet through several IP ranges. Each IP can represent several hundred students at any given time. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 23:58, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- So can we impose a short term block on the IP range so that whomever is doing it will get the message? If that doesn't work we can figure it out at that point. Jrcla2 (talk) 18:25, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Why not indefinitely block the IP but permit account creation? Then whoever is doing it can create an account and acknowledge the message.. once they've done that the IP can then be unblocked again. Egg Centric (talk) 19:24, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- So can we impose a short term block on the IP range so that whomever is doing it will get the message? If that doesn't work we can figure it out at that point. Jrcla2 (talk) 18:25, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed my university (of a little more than 12,000) funnels all its internet through several IP ranges. Each IP can represent several hundred students at any given time. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 23:58, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
IP 24.185.84.37 Use of User name JeffJonez
In reviewing edits to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Charles Mitchell (government official) I noticed that 24.185.84.37 signed a comment in the AfD using the username JeffJonez. See [72] I have looked at the edits by both users and see a difference in the type of edits both create. 24.185.84.37 has removed maintenance tags and the AfD. The edits exhibit vandalism while JeffJones' edits are standard well thought out edits. Should something be done about the Anom's apparent spoofing of JeffJones' address? ttonyb (talk) 05:30, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- The IP didn't take kindly to this point being raised: [73]. Coming on top of several warnings, that one earned them a short stay in the sin bin. Favonian (talk) 16:22, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- His actions go a long way to the validation of the assumption. ttonyb (talk) 16:26, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed. I've struck the fake signature in the AfD and replaced it with the real one. Favonian (talk) 16:31, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Should I be flattered? I suppose my name is generic enough that this astroturfer thought it was cover enough. How odd! - JeffJonez (talk) 18:41, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Have you come into conflict with this IP recently? Or any other, in case he's hopping? GiantSnowman 19:11, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- I've reverted my share of vandalism, but haven't had any challenging conversations in almost a year here. Who knows. - JeffJonez (talk) 00:31, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Have you come into conflict with this IP recently? Or any other, in case he's hopping? GiantSnowman 19:11, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Should I be flattered? I suppose my name is generic enough that this astroturfer thought it was cover enough. How odd! - JeffJonez (talk) 18:41, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed. I've struck the fake signature in the AfD and replaced it with the real one. Favonian (talk) 16:31, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- His actions go a long way to the validation of the assumption. ttonyb (talk) 16:26, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Attacks on user:Christopher Monsanto
Apparently Christopher made the mistake of pointing out the non-notability of someone's favorite programming language. The AfD process is simply filled with personal attacks from SPA's and anonymous IP users. You only need to look at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Nemerle to see what I mean. I suspect there's rampant sock-puppetry as well as clear off-wiki canvassing. I don't really know what should be done, but the AfD is essentially impossible to read because of the overwhelming amount of attacks and irrelevant content. Glaucus (talk) 06:57, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Christopher Monsanto does not appear to be unduly flustered - indeed, his responses are in danger of verging on "brilliant" - and I do not see a closing reviewer being swayed by the SPA's. I think all that needs done is a quiet pat on the back for CM. LessHeard vanU (talk) 17:54, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Yebbut a significant number of closing Admins tend to count votes & make their judgment based on that. Not knowing much about Nemerle -- & I've made a living from computers for 15-odd years -- I would be very tempted by the discussion as it stands to close it as "No consensus" due to the combination of votes to keep & Monstanto's constant refrain of "show me the reliable sources" -- which is the right response, BTW. My recommendation in this case is that if you want to help Monsanto would be to study the AfD discussion, do some research, & add your opinion about this language. (BTW, what is the notability standard for computer-related topics? I've stayed away from this area because I'm not clear exactly what is a notable computer topics -- be it commercial software package, free source program, Linux distribution, or computer term -- & what will be deleted. Some subjects are notable only to its fanboys, & some are actually of interest beyond its cult of followers.) -- llywrch (talk) 21:24, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- I would hope that the closing admin will note the lack of response to the request for RS by the majority of commentators, who question instead the acumen of the proposer. If there is a possibility that this might devolve to a head count, then perhaps thee and me should comment there? I shall do so drekkly, in any case. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:02, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Maybe my title here was misleading. The real issue is the clear attempt to subvert the AfD process. Rampant meat-puppetry, SPAs, meaningless votes whose sole content is to attack the proposer. If it devolves to a headcount, they will win solely because they ignored the rules of the process. Glaucus (talk) 22:09, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- It didn't devolve to a headcount. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 03:19, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Clearly I should have more faith in the process :). Glaucus (talk) 03:35, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Maybe my title here was misleading. The real issue is the clear attempt to subvert the AfD process. Rampant meat-puppetry, SPAs, meaningless votes whose sole content is to attack the proposer. If it devolves to a headcount, they will win solely because they ignored the rules of the process. Glaucus (talk) 22:09, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- I would hope that the closing admin will note the lack of response to the request for RS by the majority of commentators, who question instead the acumen of the proposer. If there is a possibility that this might devolve to a head count, then perhaps thee and me should comment there? I shall do so drekkly, in any case. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:02, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Yebbut a significant number of closing Admins tend to count votes & make their judgment based on that. Not knowing much about Nemerle -- & I've made a living from computers for 15-odd years -- I would be very tempted by the discussion as it stands to close it as "No consensus" due to the combination of votes to keep & Monstanto's constant refrain of "show me the reliable sources" -- which is the right response, BTW. My recommendation in this case is that if you want to help Monsanto would be to study the AfD discussion, do some research, & add your opinion about this language. (BTW, what is the notability standard for computer-related topics? I've stayed away from this area because I'm not clear exactly what is a notable computer topics -- be it commercial software package, free source program, Linux distribution, or computer term -- & what will be deleted. Some subjects are notable only to its fanboys, & some are actually of interest beyond its cult of followers.) -- llywrch (talk) 21:24, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
This user has an agenda, the results of which are continuous removals of valid content in an effort to degrade wikipedia articles on association football. The user in question is a supporter of Gaelic games and like many supporters of Gaelic games, views association football as an enemy sport in Ireland. This hateful bias is damaging to wikipedia. The user doesn't use inline cleanup tags (citation needed, etc.) in the articles in question as he has no wish for them to be improved. Instead, he removes entire blocks of valid text. Please see Ultras, List of association football club rivalries by country and other such articles (user contribs.) for examples. Onetonycousins (talk) 10:10, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- I do notice from his talk page there may be an issue concerning an obstinately strict enforcement of MOS:FLAGS or somethingrather, but I wouldn't say he's being disruptive, maybe just a bit intolerant. If you are seeking some sort of action to be taken you should specify, what do you want admins to do here? Have you tried steps in dispute resolution? Considered WP:RFC/U? -- Ϫ 11:13, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Note related post: #User:Onetonycousins more personal attacks -- Ϫ 11:18, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Please note the personal attack in this This hateful bias ANI Gnevin (talk) 01:02, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I think this incident was posted specifically in response to the fact Gnevin has reported Onetonycousins for doing more personal attacks. Though i think it is a but unwise of Onetonycousins to complain of Genvin's behaviour on football articles when you consider some of Onetonycousins edits where he has removed sourced valid information and even calls it "propaganda" in a couple of instances amongst other things. If anything this can be easily resolved by the two editors discussing the edits on the articles talk pages. Mabuska (talk) 18:52, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Please note the personal attack in this This hateful bias ANI Gnevin (talk) 01:02, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
User talk:Jonasorg keeps restoring their machine translation at Puerto National High School. Editors have reverted this machine translated gibberish to a stub a total of FIVE times already. The user has had two friendly, informal requests, four warnings, including warnings in their own language. A short 31 hour block already imposed, was probably not noticed. Request a longer block please so that when they log on next time, they realise they have been blocked, and that the repeated reversion of the article to the long unintelligible machine translation is unacceptable.--Kudpung (talk) 11:19, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Why haven't you even started a "Discussion" page? IMHO you should try to improve other editors content instead of calling it "gibberish" and blanking it.--Raphael1 11:31, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Are you an admin? Instead of throwing in inane comments here, perhaps you would do your homework and look at the page history and the user talk page history where you will see that several editors, including an admin, have agreed that the page is unintelligible.--Kudpung (talk) 11:38, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Blocked for 1 week. -- Ϫ 11:45, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Off topic: Isn't it a shame that about the only intelligible things I could get from that article were the school had both a vision statement and a mission statement. Management consultant wonk even in such a setting... Perhaps that explains the quality of its students! Egg Centric (talk) 21:49, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- About every school and school district (at least in the U.S.) has some sort of a mission statement and a vision statement; mainly a bunch of words, though, and mostly cookie-cutter. –MuZemike 02:16, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Let me guess, it contained the words "commitment to excellence" didn't it? Beeblebrox (talk) 20:22, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- About every school and school district (at least in the U.S.) has some sort of a mission statement and a vision statement; mainly a bunch of words, though, and mostly cookie-cutter. –MuZemike 02:16, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Off topic: Isn't it a shame that about the only intelligible things I could get from that article were the school had both a vision statement and a mission statement. Management consultant wonk even in such a setting... Perhaps that explains the quality of its students! Egg Centric (talk) 21:49, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Blocked for 1 week. -- Ϫ 11:45, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
User:Sizzletimethree on Lila Rose
Sizzletimethree (talk · contribs) has now twice (1, 2 removed several days' worth of changes at Lila Rose without discussion, in violation of the controversial tag at the article's talk page. Due to intermediate edits I have been unable to undo his edits and instead had to do them manually (1 2). NYyankees51 (talk) 17:11, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Comment: I am not unduly surprised. If you look at the user's talk page and their comment on the Planned Parenthood talkpage + activity there earlier today, you will see a pattern of disruptive editing. Since I have gone to some lengths to try to explain that the user needs to take things slowly and read the rules/heed advice etc, I'm starting to think that this is no longer a case of AGF, despite the user's apparent "newbie" status. - Sitush (talk) 17:18, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- If the edits to Lila Rose had happened in the past ten hours, I would block Sizzletimethree. However, the edits are older, and Sizzletimethree has received some counsel from a number of editors in the interim. Speaking for myself, I'm unwilling to block for these past actions, but would block without hesitation for any such future edits. —C.Fred (talk) 17:24, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Call me crazy, but the account looks suspiciously like somebody's bad hand sock. The first night the user was here, he or she went from taking three tries to figure out the {{helpme}} template to reverting Live Action (anti-abortion group) to an arbitrary early version in the history. --B (talk) 02:09, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Socking was my first reaction, but I couldn't find any evidence in a brief search. NYyankees51 (talk) 21:34, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Call me crazy, but the account looks suspiciously like somebody's bad hand sock. The first night the user was here, he or she went from taking three tries to figure out the {{helpme}} template to reverting Live Action (anti-abortion group) to an arbitrary early version in the history. --B (talk) 02:09, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- If the edits to Lila Rose had happened in the past ten hours, I would block Sizzletimethree. However, the edits are older, and Sizzletimethree has received some counsel from a number of editors in the interim. Speaking for myself, I'm unwilling to block for these past actions, but would block without hesitation for any such future edits. —C.Fred (talk) 17:24, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Move spam
User:Zoupan is on a move spree, which has messed up a number of articles already. He started with Bulgarian Archbishopric of Ohrid by moving it to a ton of locations, creating a number of double-redirects in the process. There is currently a discussion on the talk page regarding the article's proper name and no consensus on a move has been reached. The user was notified on a number of times not to peform such unilateral moves[74], but he continued without responding. The exact title of the page was Bulgarian Archbishopric of Ohrid and now it is... well, I am not sure since moves are being performed this very second. I would like to move it back at least until the discussion is over (although it seems like it is mostly going in favour of keeping the original title), but I cannot do it without creating a big mess. So, I have to ask an admin to move the page back and most probably take some action in regard to the clearly disruptive behaviour. I am not even sure what's going on with all the other articles he's been moving around, but I feel they are misplaced as well. Thanks in advance. --Laveol T 23:30, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Just a note: I added this entry two days ago, but it seems like my edit was reverted. I have spoken to the editor in question and he said he didn't mean to do it. In the mean time User:Zoupan did actually drop two comments on the talkpage, but seemed rather uninterested in the ANI notice or undoing what he did.--Laveol T 20:16, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
I've just added a friendly note to his talk page, also, encouraging him to show up here and engage in a good faith effort to address this. If he doesn't do so within, say, 12 hours, I'd suggest a block would be in order until he indicates, on this talk page, a willingness to do so.If this current thread rolls off to archives in the interim, it should be restored here so its continuity re subsequent discussion will be preserved. – OhioStandard (talk) 13:01, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- You know what? Scratch that. I'd suggest an immediate block is in order. He's had plenty of opportunity already to discuss, two users have already asked him to do so, and he's obviously refused. A block is necessary at this point, imo, to prevent further unilateral moves, until such time as he becomes willing to address this in good faith. Thanks, – OhioStandard (talk)
User:Dorothyy11 and article about non-notable band "Dorothyy"
This editor have three times now created the article Dorothyy, a non-notable band from Rhode Island. Three times it's been deleted, but he keeps coming back and recreating it. Then he made this diff to the Dorothy disambiguation page, after he had been reverted from adding that information to the disambig page before. To quote the edit summary in his diff, "im going to make a billion wiki pages and flood this site if this is taken down....." Recommend blocking of this editor, and salting of Dorothyy. --Hammersoft (talk) 02:24, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Signatures
208.76.104.133 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
There is potential for an edit skirmish at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language, in which an IP insists on posting its signature as "Anonymous", with no links of any kind. I reverted it based on the User:Docu case. I realize it's only the ref desk, but can someone make a ruling here? Meanwhile, I will notify the user. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:25, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I won't battle over this. I just think it's silly. Anonymous has been signing her post this way for years, and it's never been an issue. THis isn't an administrator engaged in controversial topics on talk pages, just a helpful volunteer at the desks. Whatever. ---Sluzzelin talk 02:28, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict, to Baseball Bugs) It seems to me that your "it's only the ref desk" was precisely the correct reaction. Was this really worth raising here? Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:29, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Well, I have seen a couple of opinions here, but no definitive answer. So, yes, it was worth bringing here. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:31, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- OK, according to Wikipedia:Signatures#Links, isers are supposed to sign using the 4 tildes, and they are required to have at least one link. The IP is not providing any links or any clue who it is, and is edit-warring to try to keep it that way. Thus not only going against the basic signature rule, but also being disruptive. If anything, this is worse than the Docu case, because he at least said "Docu". "Anonymous" means nothing, and you have to look into the history to figure out who it was - which is precisely the argument that was used to justify threatening Docu with suspension unless he complied. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:45, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
I am fine with a signature of the form "Anonymous, currently XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX", but not with a signature that purports to be from a user named "Anonymous" (who does exist). That makes it very hard, just reading the text, to tell who the edit is from. The signature link is also the main way to verify contribs, particularly once a post is archived. Without it, you have to dig in the appropriate page history for the edit with that timestamp. So the lack of signature does not add any actual anonymity (registering a username would be better), but the fake signature does make it harder for people to follow up on a contribution.
Given how trivial it is to create a valid signature, or to let Sinebot do it, and given that there is no anonymity gain in faking it, the user is only doing this to make some kind of point (note the "playing Sinebot" remarks the user also made).
If this user really is a long-term contributor, at some point they need to begin following site norms. There are a few users who don't want to create usernames - that's their prerogative. But the downside of not logging in is that your edits are going to be associated with whatever IP address you are using at the time, that's simply the way the site is designed. Misusing nosine to make a "fake" stable username, so that you can avoid creating a real username, isn't a solution. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:56, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- That IP has been active for about 4 1/2 years, ad from their very first edit they've used that misleading "Anonymous" construct. Maybe when they started doing that, it was "sort of OK", as per Sluzzelin's argument; but it no longer is OK, and needs to be changed to conform to the rules. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:02, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I can see it being tolerated in 2006, when the site was smaller, but it's certainly not appropriate anymore. It's also a bad precedent to set: the goal (and rule, in WP:SIGN) is for everyone to sign their posts. Particularly on "public facing" pages like the reference desk. I think it would be fine if the user simply appends their IP to the "Anonymous". — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:09, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- As a participant in this dispute, I should note I agree with CBM. Algebraist 03:13, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Actually, I checked, and the IP address is running an open proxy. I am going to block it per Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Open_or_anonymous_proxies: "Open or anonymous proxies may be blocked on sight." — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:17, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Hmmm.[75] Perhaps that explains why the user was not so keen on having its IP address openly visible. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:27, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- It seems to me a crime akin to tearing the tag off a mattress. David Able 03:51, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Depends on the mattress. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:46, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Meanwhile, the IP is (1) starting to sign properly, which is excellent; and (2) going to check with a system administrator to find out what the deal is with the open proxy, a static I they've been using for 5 years. I suspect the user will get reinstated, and will have fixed the issue I raised here, and all would be peachy. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:49, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Depends on the mattress. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:46, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- It seems to me a crime akin to tearing the tag off a mattress. David Able 03:51, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Please don't ban IPs for technical offences. IPs don't have enough rights as it is. I have edited as various IPs for years and beleive me they're treated as third class citizens. Egg Centric (talk) 10:48, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- IP's who stick with the rules don't get into trouble. It's the ones who hide behind the IP's (or multiple IP's) and use that anonymity as a vehicle for incivility and vandalism, that give the "good" IP's a bad reputation. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:34, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Open proxies are guaranteed to get into trouble. However, I'm not seeing the open proxy here for 208.76.104.133. There's a webserver running on the system but I'm not seeing an open proxy on the standard ports and it's not in any proxy blacklists. Could Carl or someone else please identify the proxy mechanism? Sailsbystars (talk) 14:12, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I was checking for proxies with a perl script that attempts to load the Wikipedia home page by proxying through the IP. The script thought that there was an open proxy on port 443 over SSL, but I went back and double-checked that the script had been implemented correctly, and apparently for this situation it was falling back to a direct connection rather than proxying over the https connection. I'm going to unblock the IP, since I can't verify that there is a proxy any more. That was my fault for trusting the script instead of double-checking it. — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:55, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Jolly good. Since I raised the issue, I'm marking it "resolved", and I have to say I'm very impressed by the IP's cool and calm attitude throughout... and their quick willingness to abide by the rule once they became aware of it. It is indeed kind of odd if they were never called out on it before, but the User:Docu situation is relatively recent. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:00, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I was checking for proxies with a perl script that attempts to load the Wikipedia home page by proxying through the IP. The script thought that there was an open proxy on port 443 over SSL, but I went back and double-checked that the script had been implemented correctly, and apparently for this situation it was falling back to a direct connection rather than proxying over the https connection. I'm going to unblock the IP, since I can't verify that there is a proxy any more. That was my fault for trusting the script instead of double-checking it. — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:55, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Open proxies are guaranteed to get into trouble. However, I'm not seeing the open proxy here for 208.76.104.133. There's a webserver running on the system but I'm not seeing an open proxy on the standard ports and it's not in any proxy blacklists. Could Carl or someone else please identify the proxy mechanism? Sailsbystars (talk) 14:12, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- IP's who stick with the rules don't get into trouble. It's the ones who hide behind the IP's (or multiple IP's) and use that anonymity as a vehicle for incivility and vandalism, that give the "good" IP's a bad reputation. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:34, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
violation of 3RR
User Roger Pearse has violated 3RR on Mithraic mysteries. He has made four reverts in close succession and at least one was after being warned to refrain from edit warring. He has also reverted one of my comments from the talk page.-Civilizededucationtalk 02:27, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I think there are better noticeboards for that, but in the meantime (since the situation was obviously headed downhill) I have asked the mediation cabal to assist in reaching a resolution, listing you and Roger Pearse and one other editor - you may (or may not) wish to indicate your acceptance of mediation on that page. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:33, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- (In addition, the page in question is full protected, and the user in question said he's not going to be online today, so things seem under control) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 08:32, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Behavioral problems
RegentsPark (talk · contribs) and I are rarely on the same side of content disputes and that's fine since it leads to improved article content at times. The user has however demonstrated behavioral problems on a number of occasions. He launched a personal attack on me by calling me someone with a "single track mind". When I requested him to remove the offensive content, he simply ignored me. I asked him again but instead of removing the content and apologizing, he simply continues to argue, now saying that I am obsessive about a certain position. I am neither of a single track mind nor am I obsessive.
On an earlier occasion, in removing an {{Indian English}} template, he demonstrated that behavioral guidelines such as WP:POINT don't apply to him and do apply to me.
In the past, RegentsPark has been brought to ANI by another editor User:Yogesh Khandke allegedly for misusing his administrative privileges and several other behavioral issues.
Appropriate and timely action will help stop the reckless behavior by RegentsPark. I am requesting that an administrator remove the content that assails my character. Zuggernaut (talk) 02:34, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Someone is blowing things out of proportion... WMO Please leave me a wb if you reply 04:20, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I'm apt to agree with Wikiman1. The comments may have been offensive to you, but are far from personal attacks and are closer to character observations.--Jojhutton (talk) 04:26, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- (1)For an administrator, who has been for a greatly longer time on the project than Zuggernaut it is highly inappropriate that he attacks the person as opposed to contesting the content put forth by the person. (2)No one can be perfect and it not easy for an editor to understand the thin line between being considered tendentiousand perseverant. (3)Regarding the nature of Zuggernaut’s edits, is it not better for Wikipedia that an editor restricts himself to a very small spectrum of content of which he has expertise about? Please see the article Wikipedia, there is a criticism on it that which goes like this "My Number One Doctor", a 2007 episode of the TV show Scrubs, also lampooned Wikipedia's reliance on editors who edit both scholarly and pop culture articles with a scene in which Dr. Perry Cox reacts to a patient who says that a Wikipedia article indicates that the raw food diet reverses the effects of bone cancer by retorting that the same editor who wrote that article also wrote the Battlestar Galactica episode guide. (4)The least the concerned administrator-editor can do is to defuse the tension by making appropriate statements as requested by Zuggernaut, so that every one of us can get on with the task of building a better encyclopaedia: for example the The Great Backlog drive seeks our time.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 07:00, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- See Talk:India for the most recent conflict, where there are many discussions about the Famines and the British. Zuggernaut posts many separate threads on talkpages, so it is easy to see why RegentsPark has come to the conclusion that Zuggernaut has a single-track mind. I don't think it's really an insult, although obviously Zuggernaut has taken offense. As Yogesh says, there is a line between tendentious editing and perseverance, and I think the problem is Zuggernaut sometimes crosses that line in the eyes of others, usually because of starting multiple threads on basically the same topic. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 15:14, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- (1)For an administrator, who has been for a greatly longer time on the project than Zuggernaut it is highly inappropriate that he attacks the person as opposed to contesting the content put forth by the person. (2)No one can be perfect and it not easy for an editor to understand the thin line between being considered tendentiousand perseverant. (3)Regarding the nature of Zuggernaut’s edits, is it not better for Wikipedia that an editor restricts himself to a very small spectrum of content of which he has expertise about? Please see the article Wikipedia, there is a criticism on it that which goes like this "My Number One Doctor", a 2007 episode of the TV show Scrubs, also lampooned Wikipedia's reliance on editors who edit both scholarly and pop culture articles with a scene in which Dr. Perry Cox reacts to a patient who says that a Wikipedia article indicates that the raw food diet reverses the effects of bone cancer by retorting that the same editor who wrote that article also wrote the Battlestar Galactica episode guide. (4)The least the concerned administrator-editor can do is to defuse the tension by making appropriate statements as requested by Zuggernaut, so that every one of us can get on with the task of building a better encyclopaedia: for example the The Great Backlog drive seeks our time.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 07:00, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I'm apt to agree with Wikiman1. The comments may have been offensive to you, but are far from personal attacks and are closer to character observations.--Jojhutton (talk) 04:26, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
RegentsPark is one of the most cool-headed and neutral administrators on Wikipedia. Zuggernaut, on the other hand, has time and time again pursued his famine edits (and only his famine edits) on the India talk page in the face of strong and sustained opposition. "Single track mind" is a polite term, for it gives Zuggernaut the benefit of affecting "single mindedness," when others might consider him to be a "consensus denier." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:18, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
As I clarified on my talk page, I used the phrase 'single track mind' solely in the context of zuggernaut's activities on the India articles. Personally, I would not consider a contextualized characterization of this sort to be particularly offensive but, since he has taken offense, have expressed my willingness to modify the statement so that the context is clear (see this diff). I would suggest to zuggernaut that he not take offense so easily. Being obsessive is not necessarily a bad thing - unless, of course, the obsessing editor knows that their obsession is contrary to wikipedia's neutral encyclopedia building mission. --rgpk (comment) 21:19, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
racism by Badger Drink
I saw this edit summary http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Damnatio_memoriae&curid=44345&diff=412838755&oldid=406233625 and thought I would look into the user. Their talkpage is dripping with warnings about incivility. The term used in this edit summary is racist, equivalent to the n-bomb. There is an article on the term itself, which touches barely on the fact that it's offensive. Bitey and snide I can handle, this is too far.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 04:16, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I haven't looked into the edits much but you cannot say Goyim is equivalent to the n-bomb, that's ridiculous. I don't even know how to respond, they're completely different. WMO Please leave me a wb if you reply 04:18, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- My concern is that he used the plural form when it should have been singular. Other than that, meh. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:19, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Ethnic pejoratives of any kind are uncalled for. Heiro 04:22, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- It is a term that has very different meanings depending on the context. For example, in the phrase Shabbos goy it has no negative connotations. In this context, the connotation seems negative and the meaning seems to constitute a slur. It does however seem that in this context the comparison being made by Kintet exaggerates the severity. If it were directed at a specific user I'd say it was a violation of WP:NPA, but given the context, it is more running afoul of not being a dick. It isn't helpful and is needlessly inflammatory. So, um, don't do it again?JoshuaZ (talk) 04:26, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- As a goy myself, I found it funny, if perhaps a bit too pointed for an edit summary. To call it "racist" is silly. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:44, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Ditto Egg Centric (talk) 10:42, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I agree, but Kintetsubuffalo may have a good point. I think he sees the word goy as equivalent to gaijin, haole, Pākehā, Ausländer, and other terms, and he may be right. I suspect every culture on the planet has similar terms to indicate "those who are not like us". Xenophobia may be more than just a cultural or social value. It may be a function of the mind itself. If so, then one should be aware of our tendency to act in such a way, and to be more careful with the words we use. It is even possible that Badger Drink isn't aware of the words he uses, which would explain the continuing civility violations. Viriditas (talk) 12:01, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- He's focusing on the word rather than the meaning. I interpret Badger's comment as being short for, "Not only would a Jew never make this claim, only the most ignorant non-Jew would make this claim." He's just saying it in a somewhat more colorful way. That doesn't mean he's correct in his assessment, but that's another story. And while I suppose it's possible that some folks use goy the way the N-word is used, in general the idea the goy and n*gg*r are equivalent is... ignorant. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:15, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- You are correct; the word goy is not used like or as the n-word, but it could be misconstrued as racist because it has xenophobic undertones. In this way, goy is really no different than gaijin or haole. Viriditas (talk) 12:23, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- It's not racist the way he used it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:32, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- You are correct; the word goy is not used like or as the n-word, but it could be misconstrued as racist because it has xenophobic undertones. In this way, goy is really no different than gaijin or haole. Viriditas (talk) 12:23, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- He's focusing on the word rather than the meaning. I interpret Badger's comment as being short for, "Not only would a Jew never make this claim, only the most ignorant non-Jew would make this claim." He's just saying it in a somewhat more colorful way. That doesn't mean he's correct in his assessment, but that's another story. And while I suppose it's possible that some folks use goy the way the N-word is used, in general the idea the goy and n*gg*r are equivalent is... ignorant. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:15, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I agree, but Kintetsubuffalo may have a good point. I think he sees the word goy as equivalent to gaijin, haole, Pākehā, Ausländer, and other terms, and he may be right. I suspect every culture on the planet has similar terms to indicate "those who are not like us". Xenophobia may be more than just a cultural or social value. It may be a function of the mind itself. If so, then one should be aware of our tendency to act in such a way, and to be more careful with the words we use. It is even possible that Badger Drink isn't aware of the words he uses, which would explain the continuing civility violations. Viriditas (talk) 12:01, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Ditto Egg Centric (talk) 10:42, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- My concern is that he used the plural form when it should have been singular. Other than that, meh. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:19, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I agree, it's not racist as he used it, as JoshuaZ so elegantly explained. However, it can certainly be misconstrued as racist due to its xenophobic undertones, and this explains the reaction of Kintetsubuffalo and Heironymous Rowe. Badger Drink should remember that edit summaries are used specifically to help other editors know what type of edits are being made as they peruse their watchlist. Was Badger Drink's edit summary helpful? Badger Drink has a history of using edit summaries to make wisecracks, and many are less than civil. Now would be a good time for him to stop using edit summaries in this way and an opportunity to engage in more civil discourse. Viriditas (talk) 12:42, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I don't disagree that the edit summary was an attempt at humor (which I, as a goy, indeed found funny). But I don't see how could that specific comment could be construed as "racist". It doesn't put down any race or ethnic group, it puts down the ignorant. That may be unfair to the mentally challenged, but it ain't "racist". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:46, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I agree, it's not racist as he used it, as JoshuaZ so elegantly explained. However, it can certainly be misconstrued as racist due to its xenophobic undertones, and this explains the reaction of Kintetsubuffalo and Heironymous Rowe. Badger Drink should remember that edit summaries are used specifically to help other editors know what type of edits are being made as they peruse their watchlist. Was Badger Drink's edit summary helpful? Badger Drink has a history of using edit summaries to make wisecracks, and many are less than civil. Now would be a good time for him to stop using edit summaries in this way and an opportunity to engage in more civil discourse. Viriditas (talk) 12:42, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
For the record, Badger Drink's comment that "only a truly befuddled, naive goyim would present something so condescending as fact" is a clear personal attack on the editor who made the edit he reverted. Viriditas (talk) 12:46, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- No question is a sarcastic putdown of the original poster, and may well be unfair. But the comment itself is neither "racist" nor "xenophobic". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:07, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- It is most certainly xenophobic, and there is no question about that fact. Do a bit of research on the history of the term, please. Viriditas (talk) 13:09, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- How is that specific statement xenophobic? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:11, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- The word, not the statement. You are free to consult Google Books, Scholar, or your local library for further information, as this discussion has gone beyond the boundaries of this topic. There is general agreement in this discussion that Badger Drink should be more careful with his edit summaries in the future and remain civil with his fellow editors. As for xenophobia, it is found in every culture, and is part of who we are as humans. Nobody is immune from it. Viriditas (talk) 13:15, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- No, that doesn't fly. The word itself is just a word. Tell me how that specific statement could possibly be misconstrued as xenophobic. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:18, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, it does "fly", and no word is by itself "just a word". Words have meaning, and this word is classically defined as xenophobic in the same way as gaijin, haole, and all the other words meaning "not us". This is not even up for debate. Do some research on the subject. Viriditas (talk) 13:22, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- No, it doesn't fly. Words are used in different ways in different contexts. You can't say, "this word sometimes means this, therefore it always means this." Unless you think I myself am an "ignorant goy", in that I'm not in the least offended by it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:25, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- The concept is classically defined as xenophobic regardless of the context. In fact, that is exactly what makes it good material for comedy, such that it can be used in any context without changing its meaning. Viriditas (talk) 13:28, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I don't care what it's "classically" defined to be. You can find xenophobia and racism anywhere, if you go looking for it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:36, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- The concept is classically defined as xenophobic regardless of the context. In fact, that is exactly what makes it good material for comedy, such that it can be used in any context without changing its meaning. Viriditas (talk) 13:28, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- No, it doesn't fly. Words are used in different ways in different contexts. You can't say, "this word sometimes means this, therefore it always means this." Unless you think I myself am an "ignorant goy", in that I'm not in the least offended by it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:25, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, it does "fly", and no word is by itself "just a word". Words have meaning, and this word is classically defined as xenophobic in the same way as gaijin, haole, and all the other words meaning "not us". This is not even up for debate. Do some research on the subject. Viriditas (talk) 13:22, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- No, that doesn't fly. The word itself is just a word. Tell me how that specific statement could possibly be misconstrued as xenophobic. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:18, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- The word, not the statement. You are free to consult Google Books, Scholar, or your local library for further information, as this discussion has gone beyond the boundaries of this topic. There is general agreement in this discussion that Badger Drink should be more careful with his edit summaries in the future and remain civil with his fellow editors. As for xenophobia, it is found in every culture, and is part of who we are as humans. Nobody is immune from it. Viriditas (talk) 13:15, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- How is that specific statement xenophobic? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:11, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- It is most certainly xenophobic, and there is no question about that fact. Do a bit of research on the history of the term, please. Viriditas (talk) 13:09, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- The statement "only a truly befuddled, naive goyim would present something so condescending as fact" is exactly as racist as "only a truly befuddled, naive jew would present something so condescending as fact" and "only a truly befuddled, naive black would present something so condescending as fact". DuncanHill (talk) 13:19, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- None of which are necessarily racist in a given context. I'm more concerned about the "condescending" part, as I'm not so sure it's a fair characterization of the uncited statement that Badger removed from the article. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:23, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Saying that someone is a "naive goyim" is not racist, it is xenophobic. Saying that someone is a "naive Jew" or a "naive black", is racist and xenophobic. Viriditas (talk) 13:29, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- It's ascribing an undesirable behaviour to a person based on their perceived membership or non-membership of an ethnic group. To me, that is racism. DuncanHill (talk) 13:31, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- No, it's saying that even most non-Jews would know that this supposedly Jewish thing is false, unless they were extremely ignorant. That's not racism. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:36, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Well... it's not racism to me. The undesirable behaviour, in this case, is that they're ignorant about jewish topics. You content it's racist to suggest us goys are less knowledgeable about jewish trivia - I think that that's absurd! Egg Centric (talk) 17:40, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Why did Badger use "goyim" instead of "non-Jew" then? GiantSnowman 17:42, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Because the two terms have identical meaning? ("How odd of God, to choose the Jews; But the Goyim, annoy 'im" ) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:27, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- "Non-Jew" is factual; "goyim" can be pejorative. I find the choice of words unsettling to be honest. GiantSnowman 20:46, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Hmm, perhaps we have different experiences - I've often heard it used, including by Jewish friends, and I've just never seen it as pejorative in itself. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:51, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- "Non-Jew" is factual; "goyim" can be pejorative. I find the choice of words unsettling to be honest. GiantSnowman 20:46, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Because the two terms have identical meaning? ("How odd of God, to choose the Jews; But the Goyim, annoy 'im" ) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:27, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Why did Badger use "goyim" instead of "non-Jew" then? GiantSnowman 17:42, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- It's ascribing an undesirable behaviour to a person based on their perceived membership or non-membership of an ethnic group. To me, that is racism. DuncanHill (talk) 13:31, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Saying that someone is a "naive goyim" is not racist, it is xenophobic. Saying that someone is a "naive Jew" or a "naive black", is racist and xenophobic. Viriditas (talk) 13:29, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- None of which are necessarily racist in a given context. I'm more concerned about the "condescending" part, as I'm not so sure it's a fair characterization of the uncited statement that Badger removed from the article. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:23, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Note that User:Badger Drink incorrectly used the plural form goyim when it clearly should have been singular goy; i.e., "a truly befuddled, naive goyim [sic]." This is a strong indication that he isn't closely familiar with the term and its finer nuances. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 19:25, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Why all of the semantic debate about this term? Our article on the term here even says it can be seen as a pejorative and controversial, as with every other ethnic or religious based slang term. If a term can be seen in this way, it should not be used to describe other editors here, ever, period. Comment on the content not the contributors. Heiro 19:52, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- The operative word term there is "can be". In the way Badger used it, it is in no way pejorative towards non-Jews, but only towards the ignorant. And I'm assuming he meant to use the plural, but that's something he would have to speak to. And he could have said "non-Jews" but that wouldn't have been funny. "Gentiles" would have been somewhat funny, but goyim works much better. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:53, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I've heard "Jew" used pejoratively, and even "American" - should we ban those too? If we prohibited the use of all words that *can* be used pejoratively, we'd have very few left. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:55, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- So, its ok to use pejorative descriptors, as long as its used as a joke? Or to reverse what was said, if the editor had said "naive Jew" everyone would be ok with this? The fact the user used any kind of ethnic, racial or intelligence descriptor for an editor instead of commenting directly on the content and why said content wasn't acceptable is the problem here. Heiro 21:06, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- No, you're missing the point of the comment. As a parallel, suppose I claimed in an article about Christianity that Jesus said the greatest commandment was, "Go therefore and teach all the world to play soccer." I could be right in saying that only the most ignorant non-Christian would think that could be a correct statement. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:20, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- But he wasn't commenting on the contributor. He was talking about the nature of the contributions. The contributions may have been made by Sir Jewsalot for all we know. He effectively said they were so ignorant that almost all jews would think otherwise, which is fair enough. Egg Centric (talk) 21:09, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Not quite. He was saying the alleged Jewish axiom was so obviously incorrect that even most non-Jews would know it was incorrect. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:17, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- We need to err on the side of caution when it comes to comments of this nature; even if he wasn't being openly racist, he was certainly inappropriate. GiantSnowman 21:13, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Its underlying premise may have been a bit pointy, but the comment was in no way racist or xenophobic. That's not erring on the side of "caution", it's erring on the side of "ignorance". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:17, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Re "its ok to use pejorative descriptors": No, I'm not saying that - I'm saying that it's people's intentions that count, not a blanket assumption that every use of a specific term *is* pejorative. And given that "goy/goyim" is often used in a non-pejorative, even sometimes affectionate, way (if my Jewish friends are actually being affectionate, as I think), then we should not just assume the worst. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:17, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- So, its ok to use pejorative descriptors, as long as its used as a joke? Or to reverse what was said, if the editor had said "naive Jew" everyone would be ok with this? The fact the user used any kind of ethnic, racial or intelligence descriptor for an editor instead of commenting directly on the content and why said content wasn't acceptable is the problem here. Heiro 21:06, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I've heard "Jew" used pejoratively, and even "American" - should we ban those too? If we prohibited the use of all words that *can* be used pejoratively, we'd have very few left. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:55, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- The operative word term there is "can be". In the way Badger used it, it is in no way pejorative towards non-Jews, but only towards the ignorant. And I'm assuming he meant to use the plural, but that's something he would have to speak to. And he could have said "non-Jews" but that wouldn't have been funny. "Gentiles" would have been somewhat funny, but goyim works much better. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:53, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Belated response from Badger Drink
Apologies for taking so long to respond to what is clearly a very pressing, highly-prioritized concern of merit absolute. I had long heart-to-hearts with my goy half, both before, during, and after the controversial edit in question, and on all three occasions we reached the mutual, unified conclusion that there was, is, and will be absolutely nothing offensive about said edit summary. The critical lynchpin of this conclusion was that anybody can arbitrarily take offense at anything - see the above example about Jews and Americans - and there comes a time when one is letting ones own hyper-sensitive (some might even go so far as to label it with the possibly-quite-pejorative "histrionic", but I myself have made a February Resolution to not use that word in any noticeboard thread, no matter how fitting it may be) sensitivities interfere with collaborative work. It's disruptive to fart loudly in a business meeting, but it's just as disruptive to stop the meeting in its tracks every time one suspects someone of possibly committing to, in schoolyard terms, an "SBD" (and I'm not talking about a soundboard recording here!). I'm sure nobody intends to be disruptive, but intent only goes so far - there comes a time when one must understand that they're being a little bit on the side of things that a neutral observer might be compelled to label as the "ridiculous" side, and when that time comes it's truly best to swallow one's own arrogance and make a sincere attempt at self-betterment. At the risk of being deemed incivil, allow me to rephrase the above tl;dr succinctly:
It's not racist. If you find it racist, you need to grow up. If you find it racist and are already grown up, you need to develop a better understanding of what truly constitutes racism, as spending the rest of your natural life tilting at windmills is in no way ideal for either you or the windmills.
Just to touch upon a couple other points I saw raised:
- I have no clue who made the original condescending edit, hence I am not altogether sure it can be construed as a personal attack.
- I'm truly sorry to any and all half-wit ignoramii I may have offended, or continue to offend, with my bigoted intolerance of half-witted ignorance on encyclopedia articles.
- The text in question, no matter how earnest and good-faith the intent, was completely patronizing, condescending, and the very textbook definition of sheltered ignorance. If it would help illustrate, I would be only too happy to offer similar patronizing, condescending, shelteredly-ignorant yet earnest-sounding statements about other religious, ethnic, or cultural groups, including but not limited to: Women, African-descendants, Christians (excluding Unitarian Universalists and Methodists), Unitarian Universalists, Methodists, Muslims, Asians, Hispanics, Wikipedians, Nupedians, Veropedians, Stratfordians, anti-Stratfordians (including but not limited to both Oxfordians and Baconians), homosexuals, bisexuals, transsexuals, pansexuals, asexuals, and/or resexuals, whatever those are - yet I hope it is not necessary, not least because I'm sure someone would completely duck under the point and label me a sexist, racist, homophobe, bigot, xenophobe, philistine and/or troll while on their way to arrest Jonathan Swift for cannibalism.
- Finally, and perhaps most importantly,
- I would like to extend my most sincere, heartfelt apologies for my own ignorance in using the plural form when clearly the singular was called for. I am at a loss to even begin to account for this oversight, and I would both understand and accept if a temporary preventative block is deemed necessary to contain such marked disregard for the languages of both Hebrew and Yiddish, the latter in particular in a rather precarious position already, and certainly in no condition to withstand such linguistic attacks.
I believe that adequately covers all matters raised, but if there remains opportunity for elaboration or clarification, please don't hesitate to leave a note on my talk page, and I'll be only too happy to provide. Badger Drink (talk) 22:48, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I am not sure you are doing yourself any good here.Slatersteven (talk) 22:51, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Many thanks for that hollow apology; referring to those you offended as "half-wit ignoramii" shows you honestly have no idea about the offence you have obviously caused to fellow editors. GiantSnowman 22:52, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Nor that they will not do so again as they don't think they have done anything wrong this time. It also implies to me that the user knew exactly what they were saying.Slatersteven (talk) 22:54, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Many thanks for that hollow apology; referring to those you offended as "half-wit ignoramii" shows you honestly have no idea about the offence you have obviously caused to fellow editors. GiantSnowman 22:52, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I should point out I wrote this before either of the above were there. In fact, on principle, given the nature of my comment, I haven't read them - I sincerely know nothing about their content other than that there are replies
- Goodness me, that's a perfect response. However, I should caution you that the intellectually inferior offenderati will happen upon it in the next few moments, and frankly the prognosis isn't good. You're not Giano, you see, and the majority of that will go over their heads... and so they will perceive further insults.
- I do hope that I'm wrong. Egg Centric (talk) 22:57, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oh crap, I really shouldn't have said that like I did. However, it would be intellectually dishonest for me to remove it, especially as it remains fairly reflective of my thoughts... but it's still not as sensitive as, er, politically it ought to be. Egg Centric (talk) 23:04, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Egg Centric, are you referring to me and Slatersteven as the "intellectually inferior offenderati"? GiantSnowman 23:11, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- No, hence my oh crap comment Egg Centric (talk) 23:16, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Whoops, that's still unclear now I read it. What I mean is I really should have read the other (i.e. your) comments before just posting that - they were directed at hypothetical responses. Now it looks like some sort of attack it wasn't meant to be. Egg Centric (talk) 23:20, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- No problemo, no offence was taken or anything, was just trying to shine a light through this increasingly foggy situation! GiantSnowman 23:23, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Which is why we need more then a "if people are thick thats is their problom" from the offender. The user gave offence becasue they did not think (or did not know) about what they were writing. That is why we have rules on civility, and why in this case a full and honest appology would have difused some of our (well my) doudts that the user does realise they did in fact make a mistake in their choice of words.Slatersteven (talk) 23:27, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- No problemo, no offence was taken or anything, was just trying to shine a light through this increasingly foggy situation! GiantSnowman 23:23, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Whoops, that's still unclear now I read it. What I mean is I really should have read the other (i.e. your) comments before just posting that - they were directed at hypothetical responses. Now it looks like some sort of attack it wasn't meant to be. Egg Centric (talk) 23:20, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- No, hence my oh crap comment Egg Centric (talk) 23:16, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Egg Centric, are you referring to me and Slatersteven as the "intellectually inferior offenderati"? GiantSnowman 23:11, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Badger Drink, I'll remember that the next time someone throws a ethnic pejorative in my direction that as long as they don't think its hurtful I shouldn't either, because if I do, I'm just too stupid not to get the joke. Heiro 23:00, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I recommend a user RFC on Badger Drink as the next step. This is clearly a user who does not understand the importance of civility and harmonious editing, and it is very sad to see long term editors supporting his right to maintain his incivility. Wise speech and kind words are needed more than ever in this world today, and we must begin with ourselves. Viriditas (talk) 23:12, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- RFC is a sensible idea, I feel. GiantSnowman 23:14, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I am not sure if the original comment was uncivil (just thoughtless), the response clearly is. But this does raise issues about prerogative attacks and what constitutes one? Is it the intent or the reception?Slatersteven (talk) 23:18, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I was not aware Wikipedia was responsible for moderating "this world today" Egg Centric (talk) 23:19, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- But it is responsible for moderating itself, Do you really belive that if I give you offence (not matter hiow trivial or foolish on your part) I should not offer an full and honest appology?Slatersteven (talk) 23:21, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Had Badger Drink said "oops, no offence meant, I see how it could have been taken though" etc. etc., it would have been fine. But with this sarcastic and ill thought-out response, he's unfortunately exacerbated the situation. GiantSnowman 23:25, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- He has indeed. But you can choose not to take it further. If you're able to, it may be better to let sleeping dogs lie. Of course I understand if you do wish to take it further. I will never agree with you, but I will understand :) Egg Centric (talk) 23:29, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I would never, ever expect you to give an apology for a response merely because it offended me. Of course I would appreciate an apology, but I would prefer a sincere "no" to an insincere "sorry" Egg Centric (talk) 23:29, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Hold on? So he has not in fact done "the minimum" we would expect (and just apologised) but (If I take your meaning to be what I think it is) we should allow him to get away with saying "Nahhh nahhhh I don't care"? He has virtually said that he will do this sort of thing again and yet we should drop this? As to offering to apologise for offence received, If I were to say "I am sorry that you are so stupid tou have taken offence" would you accept that? That is what he has done, and that is unacceptable.Slatersteven (talk) 23:35, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- To be honest, I am more offended with his 'apology' than with his original comment...GiantSnowman 23:37, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- That is why I have commented now. His origional 'offence' whilst stupid and ill informed may have been honest. His resonse is insulting and ofensive and shows no inclinations towards defalting the issues (and indead seems to have been a deliberate provocation).Slatersteven (talk) 23:45, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- To be honest, I am more offended with his 'apology' than with his original comment...GiantSnowman 23:37, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Hold on? So he has not in fact done "the minimum" we would expect (and just apologised) but (If I take your meaning to be what I think it is) we should allow him to get away with saying "Nahhh nahhhh I don't care"? He has virtually said that he will do this sort of thing again and yet we should drop this? As to offering to apologise for offence received, If I were to say "I am sorry that you are so stupid tou have taken offence" would you accept that? That is what he has done, and that is unacceptable.Slatersteven (talk) 23:35, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Had Badger Drink said "oops, no offence meant, I see how it could have been taken though" etc. etc., it would have been fine. But with this sarcastic and ill thought-out response, he's unfortunately exacerbated the situation. GiantSnowman 23:25, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- But it is responsible for moderating itself, Do you really belive that if I give you offence (not matter hiow trivial or foolish on your part) I should not offer an full and honest appology?Slatersteven (talk) 23:21, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I recommend a user RFC on Badger Drink as the next step. This is clearly a user who does not understand the importance of civility and harmonious editing, and it is very sad to see long term editors supporting his right to maintain his incivility. Wise speech and kind words are needed more than ever in this world today, and we must begin with ourselves. Viriditas (talk) 23:12, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oh crap, I really shouldn't have said that like I did. However, it would be intellectually dishonest for me to remove it, especially as it remains fairly reflective of my thoughts... but it's still not as sensitive as, er, politically it ought to be. Egg Centric (talk) 23:04, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- The original post of that item was in November of 2008,[76] and augmented in December 2010 by someone else,[77] but none of it was ever sourced. If it were me, I would have removed it with the plain comment "Unsourced and untrue", and been done with it. But as a goy, a Yank, and a WASP, and certainly an "ignoranimous" in many areas, I take no offense at any of Badger's comments, and neither should anyone else. Get over it, lower your antennae, and move on. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:51, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- What about his response? GiantSnowman 23:56, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I don't mind being called a half-wit, as I figure half a wit is better than none. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:03, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
- But you don't want to be one and a third wit, believe me ;) Egg Centric (talk) 00:08, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
- I don't mind being called a half-wit, as I figure half a wit is better than none. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:03, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
- What about his response? GiantSnowman 23:56, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think we need to "get over" Badger Drink's continuing violations of WP:CIV. Instead, he needs to read and show that he understands it. I'm going to be leaving this thread now because I have articles to research and write, but if anyone decides to start an RFC on this user and is able to certify it with two users who have tried and failed to resolve this problem, please contact me so that I can participate. This behavior should not be tolerated from anyone. Viriditas (talk) 00:13, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
Is removing a BIAS tag vandalism?
User:Igny has reverted my removal of a bias tag and called me a vandal.rv vandalism I am sure it is not, would someone be so kind as to inform him such personal attacks are not on Tentontunic (talk) 04:30, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- this may shead some light on the situation --Guerillero | My Talk 04:35, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Instances of edit-warring on other articles shed little light on this particular situation. The relevant policy here is WP:NOTVAND. Depending on the viewpoint you take, Tentontunic's actions could be counted as either bold editing or disruptive editing. Not vandalism. Igny has had a history of bad-faith assumptions and incivility on the related talkpage (1 2 3 4 5 6), and this seems to be a continuation of that pattern. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:11, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Igny should avoid the term vandalism, which has a specific meaning in Wikipedia. See also the page for the POV template: "Removing this tag may be tendentious—just like placing it on the article may be tendentious—but it is not an act of vandalism".[78] I assume Igny was unaware, and it would have been more helpful to explain this to him on his talk page, rather than taking it to ANI. TFD (talk) 17:32, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I placed a reminder on his talk-page under the notice for this ANI thread. Both the notice and reminder were later removed with the explanation "no comment". ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:00, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
In general, removal of a POV tag is apt to be far more disruptive overall than leaving it in place. Collect (talk) 18:57, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Maybe, but disruptive editing is not vandalism. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:58, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
User Impersonation - Mad Doggin 7 Making False Claims Using my Signatures/Claiming to be Moderator
The user User: Mad Doggin 7 has been impersonating me, making claims on the Talk:List of Black Rock Shooter characters and linking my user name at the end as a signature as if I had made the claim myself. Prior to clarifying that I am being impersonated, I have not made any contributions to that page since September 24, 2010 as seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_Black_Rock_Shooter_characters&diff=386769826&oldid=386560984.
The edit(s) in question in which the identified culprit has made are the following:
- - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_Black_Rock_Shooter_characters&diff=410621620&oldid=410254409 : Mad Doggin 7 uses my name at the end to back his own personal argument about sources and naming in the article
- - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_Black_Rock_Shooter_characters&diff=411390510&oldid=411390089 : In this edit he claims for himself that I am a moderator to give weight to the last statement he made as me(noted in the above edit). I have never once alluded to being, cited myself as being, falsified my self as being or claimed myself to being a moderator
My account has not been compromised and a quick check through My Contributions shows edits that correlates with ones that I myself am aware that I made. To summarize, the user in question, User: Mad Doggin 7 has been editing in my name to their arguments in order to gain some absurd advantage over other editors. They have also made false statements and impressions that I am a moderator, of which I myself have never expressed, in order to gain an upper hand in their personal desire to ensure their edits to the List of Black Rock Shooter characters article are not removed or changed. Fox816 (talk) 06:27, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Looking into it. Is it possible you wrote that in the past and he copy-pasted it? That's the only innocent explanation I can think of. N419BH 06:34, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I have never made any such claims and a refresher check through my history shows no such writings. I read through it all...and to be blunt, their methodology and the fact they claimed it to be mine is an insult to me as an editor and a person. I clearly state in earlier posts that "I myself am not sure as to what the accurate names are for the characters aside the main four in the OVA so I can't comment on naming issues" - edit on September 17. I also clearly state that reliable sources must be provided and should be linked. Fox816 (talk) 06:47, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah that's kinda what I thought. Looks like someone who doesn't realize the history shows which account actually made the edit. Looks intentional too; they seem to have created the comment signed to you in order to provide a second opinion to back them up, then they mistakenly assumed that everyone who's been around for a couple years is a "moderator" (no idea what that is) and used that to proxy-threaten the opposition with blocks. A STERN warning here seems more than appropriate, and a block is perhaps in order, though I don't have the tools to do that. N419BH 06:55, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for clearing this up Fox816. I had my suspicions that something was up because the recent behavior under your name was distinctly inconsistent with past behavior, and I had a feeling that Mad Doggin 7 was somehow involved.
- Please note, any administrators investigating this, that I have also started a thread with addressing several other grievances involved with Mad Doggin 7 (and his associated IP address 65.254.165.214) which is located higher up on this page at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Disruptive_Behavior_by_User:_Mad_Doggin_7_.2F_65.254.165.214. It has information related to this investigation, and as of yet has not received administrator attention (as far as I can tell). CannikinX (talk) 07:00, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for all your help. I went through the warning templates checking for one that fits "impersonation" but can't seem to find one, unless I happened to skip over it in my rage. If it is in my right to suggest, I believe a block is appropriate since the said user has shown a tendency for intimidation, subjugation and a general disrespect for other editors. As well, impersonation itself is a severe grievance that should not go unpunished. Will an administrator come along and deal judgment or do I have to parallel this case somewhere else? Fox816 (talk) 07:12, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- This template can be used once he is blocked, Template:Blockedimpersonator. Here is a warning template for his talk page, User:Chrisch/Templates/Impersonation. There is also one to use when actually blocking, Template:Uw-uhblock-double. I don't see one for warning users of impersonation however. Hope this helps! WMO Please leave me a wb if you reply 07:16, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Just leave it here for now. It's pretty common around this time (late night in the United States, early morning in Europe) for the boards to go pretty silent and few people to be online, with even fewer admins around. Someone will read through it once they've had some coffee and deal with it as appropriate. A stern warning is appropriate here, and I will provide a customized one in a moment. As for blocking the user, blocks are preventative, not punitive. We don't use them to punish people, we use them to prevent damage. In my opinion, a stern warning is appropriate here, but a block is not unless the user continues their disruptive behavior. N419BH 07:24, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Help with user needed
Could someone who speaks Finnish please try to communicate with this user? I now believe they may be continually ignoring warnings and recreating pages because they don't understand english. Thanks!--Yaksar (let's chat) 07:05, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I don't speak Finnish, but I do speak Admin. Title salted. Mjroots (talk) 18:57, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Editnotice required, apparently...
Per this Wikipedia:Hardcore images needs an Editnotice created to let us know that we're not allowed to edit that essay without Herostratus' permission. I was going to create one myself but it seems one needs to be an admin to do it; no doubt he would have himself had he not been desysopped.
Oh, and yes the above may contain a *hint* of sarcasm. Egg Centric (talk) 09:58, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Account creators may also edit edit notices. --Kudpung (talk) 13:18, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I can make one if he wants it. Otherwise, I'd ignore him. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 18:51, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Barnstar on its way Egg Centric (talk) 19:00, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I can make one if he wants it. Otherwise, I'd ignore him. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 18:51, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Although I think the sarcasm is funny, this is actually a situation where some input from others would be great. Months ago I asked HS to userfy this essay. The request was refused and I took it to a deletion discussion. Editors assumed it was an attempt to censor an essay and overwhelmingly !voted to keep. Since then, HS has locked the page down. Reverts (not my changes) here and here. These on top of the gaul to say anyone can edit but me 'is not only completely out of line, it is against WP:ESSAY. "Essays that the author does not want others to edit, or that are found to contradict widespread consensus, belong in the user namespace.". Time to userfy this essay and I believe HS needs a reminder of protocol if they can dictate who can and cannot edit.Cptnono (talk) 20:38, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Meatpuppetry, edit warring, unreliable sources, false consensus, business as usual on Aspartame Controversy
At Aspartame_controversy Brangifer and his friends, particulary Yobol are making the lead into some gossip section, inserting multiple unreliable sources, strengthened with Weasel words and immediately claiming consensus when I removed rightfully the ridiculous sources. Yobol then falsely accuse me of the three-revert rule at my talk page while I only undid an edit once and undid an edit again that contained different info. When someone mentions an unreliable source, the burden is on them to prove it's reliable. These people have a very aggressive attitude towards editors who present the other side in the controversy to level out the article. After all it's about a controversy, a dispute. I would like to see these people being blocked or even banned from the article. Immortale (talk) 11:13, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- This template must be substituted. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:04, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Please supply some difs of who the meat puppet(s) are and some of the other things you are claiming like false consenses. From looking at the history of the article, you are at 3 rr which means the notice is good. The sources you say aren't reliable the other editors involved are saying are reliable which brings consensus against you. Please keep in mind the WP:Boomerang. --CrohnieGalTalk 13:08, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I think the underlying issue is the prominence given to the Merkel emails, this is a niche event that is rarely even mentioned in serious coverage of the controversy. The article has been having serious discrepancy issues with regard to sources for as long as I have been editing here, to the point that GAO reports were sought to be excluded for spurious reasons. Why something that is rarely mentioned in serious sources and often only in passing if at all, is given the first line in our article is odd. un☯mi 13:33, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- These pro aspartame editors keep claiming consensus immediately whenever someone tries to make a valid contribution towards the neutrality of the article. They work closely together, support each other, protect each other (here for example where Brangifer demands an apology from me for his friend), and bully all other editors who have a different opinion than them even if they apply the wikipedia guidelines. The three-revert rule doesn't apply because I didn't revert 3 times the same edit. The source was replaced by another unreliable source. If this is what Wikipedia is about: bully-editing, then allow it, otherwise I really would like to see a strong and just administrator to do the right thing and ban the aforementioned two individuals from the article, as they are the most prominent. The proof for this is all over the talk page and the history section.Immortale (talk) 14:35, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Full disclosure, I edit that page a lot. I doubt that the editors mentioned would consider themselves 'pro aspartame' but rather 'pro wikipedia policies' I know that is what I consider myself. As hard as it is, please WP:AGF. I also see no evidence of meatpuppetry. 67.68.139.8 (talk) 15:11, 13 February 2011 (UTC). I am sorry, that was me, I thought I was logged in. Dbrodbeck (talk) 15:12, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
There, unfortunately, seems to be a trend of false accusations by people who do not want to follow proper behavioral guidelines on the aspartame articles (see previous AN/I threads here, here, and here). Specifically, these WP:SPAs have been falsely accusing others of being sockpuppets/meatpuppets/shills of companies for a while now due this content dispute. Unfortunately, this is the 4th AN/I thread about this subject recently, and unless the community does something to curtail this behavior, I suspect these articles will be further disrupted (as they have been for months now). I note specifically that Unomi's comments above are content specific and really belong on the talk page of the article, not here. The behavioral issues of these SPAs, however, needs to be addressed. Yobol (talk) 15:31, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- The editors complained about are merely enforcing wikipedia policy and guidelines, specifically WP:MEDRS (reliable sources for articles about medicine). TFD (talk) 17:21, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, there are a group of SPAs who have been making these complaints for some time now without any evidence. They live on that article and push to have dubious sources, primary sources, and even websites with nothing but anecdotes, included as sourcing. It's really been very tiring. The rest of us edit many articles, have much more experience and understanding of policies, and they keep making personal attacks and claims we're working for industry. Personally I have no great love for the pharmaceutical industry, or for Monsanto or Searle, and I'd love to help bury them if they were wrong, but in this case the scientific evidence is very clear....aspartame at normal doses is not a dangerous substance (except for a very particularly infinitisimally small group of people with a certain illness). The gross assumptions of bad faith need to stop. My latest message for one of the SPAs, User:Arydberg, is illustrative of what we're up against. -- Brangifer (talk) 21:48, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- It's not meatpuppetry if there are several different editors who merely wish to follow wikipedia guidelines and improve articles in line with reliable sources. Unfortunately, it might look like meatpuppetry to somebody who wants to get their POV into an article and finds multiple people disagreeing with them. I'm not sure why this has come to AN/I, as it looks more like a conventional content dispute that should be addressed on a talkpage imho. (Full disclosure: I've never edited the article, and don't have any particular opinion on aspartame, but have commented on the talkpage once). bobrayner (talk) 22:44, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, there are a group of SPAs who have been making these complaints for some time now without any evidence. They live on that article and push to have dubious sources, primary sources, and even websites with nothing but anecdotes, included as sourcing. It's really been very tiring. The rest of us edit many articles, have much more experience and understanding of policies, and they keep making personal attacks and claims we're working for industry. Personally I have no great love for the pharmaceutical industry, or for Monsanto or Searle, and I'd love to help bury them if they were wrong, but in this case the scientific evidence is very clear....aspartame at normal doses is not a dangerous substance (except for a very particularly infinitisimally small group of people with a certain illness). The gross assumptions of bad faith need to stop. My latest message for one of the SPAs, User:Arydberg, is illustrative of what we're up against. -- Brangifer (talk) 21:48, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
I'm the editor who introduced that new ‘unreliable’ source to the article and even though I wasn't explicitly named in Immortale's complaint I guess I'm one of the ‘bad guys’, too, so I guess I should comment here. While I don't think the source is unreliable, I don't feel strongly about keeping it - what I do feel strongly about, however, is the insinuation that I introduced it in bad faith. When Immortale questioned the validity of a source I found a new, better one that basically said the same and added it - I thought that was pretty much a standard procedure here. Instead of saying why this source isn't reliable, Immortale removed it saying if I doubted their assessment I should “take it to WP:RSN”. I know this is what they have been told in regard to some of their sources, but that wasn't until a discussion at the article's talk was fruitless. I'm nobody's meatpuppet, nor am I a ‘pro-aspartame’ editor, and those accusations are very annoying. --Six words (talk) 22:44, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
User:Reg1997 six (6) CSD of this article in three days
User:Reg1997 claims to be "Isa 13 year old boy that have an assignment to create article on wikipedia by it's name." The article has been speedy deleted six times in the past three days. The user apparently understands how to game the system by using variations of capitals, etc., for each reincarnation. Request admin intervention to salt the versions of the title and eventually to block the editor.
- 19:43, 11 February 2011 RHaworth (talk | contribs) deleted "Reg jaycobb jacobo" (G3: Vandalism: fork of List of EastEnders characters (1985)#Reg Cox)
- 16:59, 9 February 2011 UtherSRG (talk | contribs) deleted "Reg jaycobb jacobo" (A7: Article about a real person, which does not indicate the importance or significance of the subject)
- 17:29, 9 February 2011 UtherSRG (talk | contribs) deleted "REG JAYCOBB JACOBO" (A7: Article about a real person, which does not indicate the importance or significance of the subject)
- 19:43, 11 February 2011 RHaworth (talk | contribs) deleted "Reg jaycobb jacobo" (G3: Vandalism: fork of List of EastEnders characters (1985)#Reg Cox)
- 16:59, 9 February 2011 UtherSRG (talk | contribs) deleted "Reg jaycobb jacobo" (A7: Article about a real person, which does not indicate the importance or significance of the subject)
- 13:53, 13 February 2011 Nancy (talk | contribs) deleted "Reg Jaycobb Jacobo" (A10: Recently created article that duplicates an existing topic: History of EastEnders)
Kudpung (talk) 11:41, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I have issued a final warning and will keep an eye on the young man. Favonian (talk) 11:55, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Note the page he's creating is more or less a variation on List_of_EastEnders_characters_(1985)#Reg_Cox but with a different name substituted, thus this is bad faith, rather than just cluelessness. Egg Centric (talk) 12:10, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I've made a salt request at RPP, see Wikipedia:Requests for page protection#Current requests for protection. Lavalamp from Mars (talk) 12:33, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Note the page he's creating is more or less a variation on List_of_EastEnders_characters_(1985)#Reg_Cox but with a different name substituted, thus this is bad faith, rather than just cluelessness. Egg Centric (talk) 12:10, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
User:Christopher Monsanto
Currently all the activities of this users seems to be trying to remove information from the Wikipedia, especially about programming languages. He may be right about single points, some pages may really not be notable, but: overall he is certainly inflicting damage to the Wikipedia. The notability-related distinguishing features are often marginal, so this systematic elimination of information, including fast deletion-processes certainly implies the loss of a lot of usefull, and even notable (for statistical reasons) articles. It will decrease the representativeness of the presented programming languages dramatically, and I do not see any benefits in this systematic elimination. In my opinion it is better to keep some non-notable programming languages than to take those risks. Even if a programming language becomes notable in near future it is unlikely that there will be usefull information available at Wikipedia due to this process, authors will be shocked by that elimination. Since he has announced not to reply to criticism, I am writing this comment here. I am really worried about the quality of information related to programming languages in the Wikipedia. Sometimes we should not be to finicky with notability-policies, when the over-all quality of Wikipedia's information about one topic is in danger, this process of deletion should be stopped. --Chricho ∀ (talk) 13:19, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
I agree with Chricho that the deletion of a few notable, but hard to prove programming languages are a loss for Wikipedia. The deletion of Nemerle and Pure alone mean that Wikipedia is no longer a reliable source for information on Functional Programming Languages. Cleaning out programming languages is a good idea, but a more conservative attitude with popular, emerging languages would be wise. I gather that this is not the proper place for this argument, however, so I will attempt to find an appropriate place. Morgan Sutherland (talk) 22:26, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- PS: I'm not a fan of one of the removed programming language, it is just about the quality of information presented here. And I do not follow Christopher's advice not to complain here, because it is not a personal issue, but I care about Wikipedia. --Chricho ∀ (talk) 13:23, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- And here I thought the complaints would stop after Nemerle got deleted. I'm very conservative with the languages I nominate for deletion. Read any of my AfDs -- no one, including myself, could find one solid source (i.e., related to the subject, non-neighborhood-of-zero citations, independent, non-blog-post, etc) backing their notability, let alone multiple. In other words, if I nominate something for deletion, it will most likely be a landslide-delete. Seriously, I haven't "lost" a single AfD. Doesn't that say something about the languages I'm nominating for deletion? If you don't think so, please, click the User Contributions link, find my AfDs, and find admissible sources for the languages in question. Christopher Monsanto (talk) 14:56, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Well, I agree with the deletion of articles just saying “this language is usually ignored”. But some of them are really interesting, no orphans and an enrichment for the Wikipedia, e.g. Pure or Nemerle, they are notable because of their characteristics, not because of some Wikipedia-guidelines, I do not get, how it should become easier “to find interesting programming languages” if they get deleted, although there are some scientific papers. I know that you win your AfDs, but there is something more notable about your user contributions list: just destructive changes. It is obvious that there will be collateral damage. --Chricho ∀ (talk) 15:30, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Then take your complaints up with the WP community, I didn't come up with the notability guidelines. However, I happen to think the deletions are for the better. It is impossible to browse PL lists and categories because of the overwhelming number of pet programming languages on WP. If you want to learn about Pure or Nemerle, use Google. Christopher Monsanto (talk) 15:34, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Ignore_all_rules, we do not have to change all guidelines, if they obviously imply damage in specific cases. Btw: “…because of their characteristics…” and because of agile communities, you should consider that aspect, too. --Chricho ∀ (talk) 15:37, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- What do you think why nobody ever complained about all those stubs, about Nemerle, Pure or the size of the list of programming languages and why there are so many complaints about your work now? I think there is a good reason. Btw all those stubs are the main-reason why I prefer the English Wikipedia to the German one, at the German Wikipedia there are more such people trying to enforce all rules and to delete many articles. --Chricho ∀ (talk) 16:59, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- First thing, regarding Nemerle you are arguing against a AfD decision - you can do that at WP:DRV. Secondly, you appear to be accepting that that and other computer languages may not comply with WP policy but suggesting that this is good. Interesting stance (but perhaps not one to advance at DRV)... The major issues regarding Christopher Monsanto's work is that he is apparently unpopular with various individuals for trying to apply both letter and spirit of policy to an area of WP that appears rather lax in complying with requirements. As one of the correspondents at the Nemerle AfD said, why not make the effort to find the reliable sources required? WP:IAR is only where non compliance is of benefit to the project, and is not an excuse for laziness, ineptitude or simple lack. It is inappropriate to blame the messenger, when it is those complaining who should have found the references for the articles. Since a sizeable percentage, perhaps a majority, of those complaining and opposing AfD's for these computer language articles are those involved in producing, marketing and using these products, surely it would be easier for them to find the relevant reliable third party sources? Or perhaps there are no such references? In which case, start an RfC for the argument that Computer Language articles need not comply with WP requirements. In any event, do stop attempting to stifle Christopher Monsanto from using proper WP processes to improve the project. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:49, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- What do you think why nobody ever complained about all those stubs, about Nemerle, Pure or the size of the list of programming languages and why there are so many complaints about your work now? I think there is a good reason. Btw all those stubs are the main-reason why I prefer the English Wikipedia to the German one, at the German Wikipedia there are more such people trying to enforce all rules and to delete many articles. --Chricho ∀ (talk) 16:59, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Semi Protect Vex News
Relevant links: [[79]] --Article for semi protect [[80]] --Article subject [[81]] --User harassed off WP for editing the article [[82]] --User harassing above user [[83]] --User who created the article [[84]]
The article on the conservative blog / news site in Australia, VEX News is in a poor state and I'm requesting Semi-Protection so that I am able, along with other interesting WP editors to clean it up without the threats / reverts / undos etc. that have come from a range of anonymous IP's and 2 users (including the user who created the article). All of the IP's in the list below began by editing the article, all but 2 ONLY edited the article. As such I am going to assume they are the same people as the registered users and I am not going to notify them that they are being discussed. I apologise if this is against policy. I will notify SammyAzizMercedes and Gerrydavidson
- [[85]] |175.37.98.245
- [[86]] |175.35.117.201
- [[87]] |58.171.2.174
- [[88]] |58.171.153.94
- [[89]] |SammyAzizMercedes
- [[90]] |110.174.108.177
- [[91]] |Gerrydavidson
- [[92]] |58.171.231.121
- [[93]] |120.156.194.153
- [[94]] |120.156.203.92
For all intents and purposes it appears that this article was created as a fluff piece by user GerryDavidson and protected by a series of anon IP edits and SammyAzizMercedes. When I first encountered VexNews it was during the last Federal Election and there was a considerably nasty piece, near the top of google searches for a labor party candidate in an electorate. The piece attacked her viciously on a number of fronts, not having a single source for its claims and there not being a single mention of the claims on any online source despite their ferocity and intensity. I get the feeling this website and hence the WP article are part of a partisan game of name-blackening and little more and suggest editors be vigilant to assure this doesn't continue. Furthermore, as part of these tactics it seems User: Roooster was bullied off WP as she stopped editing after being threatened by user SammyAzizMercedes.--Senor Freebie (talk) 14:39, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Rather stale looking at the edit history of the article. Collect (talk) 14:43, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I agree, but there is a pattern. Each time there is an edit, anon IP's turn up. I thought it was worth asking (even if denied) to get semi-protect to ensure editing is more secure.--Senor Freebie (talk) 14:46, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I noticed after a bit more of a poke around that the article on the author of Vex News has suffered the same problems. Semi-Protect has been granted, then lifted and the problems have returned. I now ask for Permanent Semi-Protect for both neglected articles.
[[95]] --Talk page discussing previous semi-protect and Anon IP edits.
Now for a list of suspect editors on the Andrew Landeryou article:
- [[96]] |DoclerWhose?
- [[97]] |120.155.146.242
- [[98]] |120.156.124.244
- [[99]] |Showninner888
- [[100]] |120.152.29.130
- [[101]] |124.180.34.30
Ok forget this ... the amount of IP's is endless, the amount of users with identical talk pages and edits only to this article seems outright stupid. This is downright intimidating.--Senor Freebie (talk) 15:21, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
I think I might've found the motivation for this campaign. This character, Landeryou first had an article made about him talking about his arresting and sacking as demonstrated at; http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Andrew_Landeryou&action=historysubmit&diff=358610162&oldid=18461385 Since then, he (or someone acting in his interests) has acted almost as a vigilante attempting to clean his online image in order to support the operation of his news website.--Senor Freebie (talk) 15:33, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Surely WP:RPP is the place to go...? GiantSnowman 16:26, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Yes and no. Yes, that's the correct page to request protection; and no, the article shouldn't be semiprotected based on the above report. None of those contributors is vandalizing, they are disputing a part of the article, and they have engaged in discussion about it. We don't semiprotect articles in order to pick sides in a content dispute. — Gavia immer (talk) 18:38, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Toolserver down?
I got this message when going to Toolserver.
Bad Gateway An error occurred while communicating with another application or an upstream server.
There may be more information about this error in the server's error logs.
If you have any queries about this error, please e-mail ts-admins@toolserver.org. Back to toolserver.org homepage
[ Powered by Zeus Web Server ]
--Perseus8235 19:17, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- *Cough*
"If you have any queries about this error, please e-mail ts-admins@toolserver.org."
- Your email account is → that way I believe. Tiptoety talk 19:23, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Just refresh and it should work. →♠Gƒoley↔Four♣← 19:46, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
This sounds like an error in a particular tool. The toolserver itself is not down, at least not right now. What tool are you loading? — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:19, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, sounds like a particular tool. I loaded Checklinks and SUL and both loaded just fine. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 20:21, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Why is this here? What is an enwiki admin supposed to do about this? WP:VPT might be more appropriate, as might be Tiptoety's suggestion. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 20:24, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
I know there was a page somewhere where websites that was taking content from Wikipedia without proper attribution could be reported. http://artist.maestro.fm/Terry_Weeks.html?v=biography looks like a user content site but I do know this particular page is a copy of Terry Weeks. What should be done?--v/r - TP 21:03, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
persistent Francis Fox Piven blanking and legal threat
(Copy of WP:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#persistent_Francis_Fox_Piven_blanking_and_legal_threat needing prompt attention)
Please see Francis Fox Piven (history and comments) as well as User talk:Rostz regarding a legal threat from User:Fannielou. Please advise, thanks. Rostz (talk) 21:25, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I received a similar legal threat from FannieLou, who is past 6RR with blanking the page. She should be blocked immediately. Redthoreau -- (talk) 21:45, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Fannielou is now blocked by MuZemike, who got there seconds before I did to do the same. - TexasAndroid (talk) 22:14, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I would have gotten that earlier, but I accidentally blocked Rostz instead. My sincere apologies to Rostz for that. –MuZemike 22:26, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Fannielou is now blocked by MuZemike, who got there seconds before I did to do the same. - TexasAndroid (talk) 22:14, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
As far as the content dispute is concerned, she may have a viable complaint. I have already directed Fannielou to OTRS. She was retracted her legal threat on her talk page, but in the event of her unblock (which I won't oppose) I think it might not hurt to full-protect Francis Fox Piven for a few days to allow discussion on the talk page (or via OTRS if she chooses) to occur. Thoughts? –MuZemike 23:00, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- It is a very crappy situation (person is an innocuous academic from what I can tell, getting death threats due to a harassment campaign, partly about an article she wrote 45 years ago in a drastically different social climate than today). Per "do no harm" please do protect the article or do whatever else it takes to prevent it from worsening her problems. I personally would support an AfD in rather strong terms, but I'm almost certainly in a minority about that. Cloward–Piven strategy appears to be a poorly sourced neologism that should also be deleted. 71.141.88.54 (talk) 23:18, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- One thought that no one seems to have brought up, does Fannielou want her email address included in her posts? It appears several places. JanetteDoe (talk) 23:28, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Here's the thing after briefly looking at it (and I agree, this is a very crappy situation). We got this recent incident as documented from The Guardian here, which, in layman terms, Piven is basically in some sort of a shouting war with Glenn Beck (surprise, surprise). We can keep the "criticism" section at proper weight compared to the rest of the article as well as focused and neutral, but even keeping all that in mind, I don't think Wikipedia is obligated to protect Piven (or conversely Beck) for whatever fallout might occur as a result by omitting any mention of her ongoing battle with Beck, not to mention most of the other stuff in the article which can be easily found in other online sources as currently referenced in the article (i.e. the "personal information"). –MuZemike 23:38, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Just to clarify with my above comment: once something like this hits The Guardian, The New York Times, or any other widely reputable international source (that's the important part, the WP:RS part), then suppressing said information from Wikipedia is not going to do too much more good. –MuZemike 00:02, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
- Ick. What an all-round unpleasant situation. I've nominated this article for deletion, not so much because I'm sure it should be deleted or stubbed, but because I feel like consensus is needed, and I'm leaning in the direction of deletion- I'm not sure that Piven meets WP:ACADEMIC, and I'm not sure that she should be considered notable just because Glenn Beck decided to give her notoriety. Maybe you feel differently, and that's okay. I have a lot of mixed feelings. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 23:50, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
User:Menilek's credentials and behavior
- Menilek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log), 2009–present
- Minilik (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log), 2006–2008 (indefinitely blocked)
- Menelik (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log), 2004 (possibly related; single edit that doesn't warrant attention)
User:Menilek/Minilik is an intermittent contributor whose edits and behavior (I believe) warrant further scrutiny. On several occasions (for example, in May 2009, diff), Menilek has made the exceptional claim that he is the current head prophet of the Beta Israel (Ethiopian Jews). The only source I have seen to corroborate this claim is his Myspace page, to which he linked in the autobiographical Teru Minilik ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (deleted via WP:CSD). More recently (13 Feb.) he claims to be a member of the royal family (diff) (not sure which one; presumably that of Menelik I and Menelek II of Ethiopia). Based on these claims, he has presented himself as both an authority and spokesman on Beta Israel and related topics in Wikipedia. His activity has been intermittent, involving two accounts since 2006 (the older of which is indefinitely blocked).
Even if Menilek is who he says he is, Wikipedia's verifiability policy trumps citing oneself as an expert. I was not sure where to report this, as WP:SOCK, WP:COI, WP:NOT, WP:AGF and WP:OWN have all been applicable at one time or another. I'm hesitant to take unilateral action given my own (but comparatively minimal) involvement with the subject matter.
In his most recent activity, on 11 & 12 February, Menilek asserted (diff, diff) that Aksum/Aksumite Empire officially embraced Christianity during the first century CE, citing Rey, Sir Charles F., In the Country of the Blue Nile and the New Testament account of Phillip and the eunuch (Acts 8:26-39; 8:26-39&version=NIV;KJV#fen-NIV-27204a). However, the source (and the Bible) use the term "Ethiopia," which more likely means Aethiopia (Classical Greek term), referring to the Kingdom of Kush rather than Ethiopia in the modern sense. Aksum itself is not mentioned. A more recent text (Hansberry, William Leo Pillars in Ethiopian History, Howard University Press, 1974) suggests the older, rather than modern, meaning of Ethiopia in this context. Ironically, User:Menilek himself pointed out the distinction between ancient and modern Ethiopia in an older discussion (diff).
I reverted his edits and left comments about it on his talk page ([102] diff]). Menilek left a lengthy response on my talk page ([103]). Regarding my concerns regarding ancient Ethiopia vs. modern Ethiopia vs. the Aksumite Empire itself, he provided a synthesis explaining how the mention of Ethiopia (i.e. sub-Saharan Africa, in the ancient sense of the term) would apply to Aksum as well based on geographic proximity. Thus far he has not re-introduced the material, nor have I responded to his comments (in all honesty, I am quite unsure how to craft a response to what he was written).
I become more and more skeptical about the content (and intent) of Menilek's edits, based on the user's past behavior on Wikipedia. As the head prophet of the Beta Israel, Menilek has presented himself as both an authoritative source and as a spokesperson at Talk:Beta Israel:
- diff, 6 May 2009. Presents himself as an expert on the subject (WP:SELFCITING); also makes the argument that only those of "x" ethnicity/nationality are truly qualified to write about "x" ethnicity/nationality (which I feel is racist in any context and, unfortunately, a sentiment I have seen elsewhere on Wikipedia).
- diff, 6 May 2009, makes assertions regarding the origins of Sephardim vs. Ashkenazim; asks for sources to the contrary but does not offer any himself (other than the Book of Genesis).
- diff, 6 May 2009, WP:SELFCITING again; WP:FRINGE(?) assertions regarding Arabs as false Ishmaelites, and (modern) Ethiopians as true Midianites/Ishmaelites.
- diff, 6 May 2009, forgive me if this seems uncivil but I am not sure how else do describe this other than as ranting.
- diff, 6 May 2009, again brings up claims regarding Ethiopians as Ishmaelites/Midianites, but (as mentioned earlier) points out the difference between the ancient and modern uses of the name "Ethiopia."
- (Menilek's series of edits to Talk:Beta Israel on 12 May 2009 were generally to copyedit the earlier edits he made on 6 May.)
- diff, 29 May 2009, again making claims about his credentials, along the lines of "Just tell 'em Menilek sent you."
Elsewhere on Wikipedia:
- Comments at User talk:OneTopJob6 (diff), and reposted on his own talk page (diff), 29 May 2009: Again, Menilek posts what I can only describe as a rant, albeit in response to a personal attack (diff). Again, Menilek makes exceptional claims ("I am one of the leading authorities on Bete [sic] Israel, as one of their 2 highest ranking spiritual leaders!").
- In the Raphael Hadane article (about a Beta Israel priest) diff, 31 July 2009: Asserts that the proper term for Ethiopian Jewish priests is "Kahane," not "Kes," yet the subject of that article (Raphael Hadane) refers to himself as "Kes" (Chief Kes, at that): link.
User:Menilek is highly likely the same person as [[::User:Minilik|Minilik]] (talk · contribs). The latter account was blocked indefinitely, due to COI username, following the creation of the autobiographical article Teru Minilik. In the article, the subject claimed (deleted edits) to be "rasnebiy (head of the nevi'im)," i.e. the head of the prophets, but the only source to corroborate this claim is a link to the subject's own Myspace page. There was also an uncited claim (ibid.) that the subject is "a descendant of both Minilik the Great (bka Menelik I) and also is descended from Sahle Maryam, when he was king of Shewa by his first wife, princess Alitash, the half-jewish daughter of Emperor Tewodros II and his Bete Israel wife from Aksum,(Sahle Maryam was later coroneted as Menelik II)."
On his talk page, Minilik claimed (deleted diff) to be the the head of the Beta Israel, and asserted his right and authority to enforce the desired spelling "Bete Israel" on Wikipedia. Upon being blocked, he claimed (deleted diff) to be the head prophet, and again demanded that Wikipedia comply with the desired spelling, using language that bordered on a legal threat.
The older Minilik account also uploaded a number of images depicting ostensibly ancient flags, e.g. File:Aksum Flag.jpg and File:Tigray Flag.gif. The consensus, however, was that these flags were of his own design. The former was later uploaded to Commons, where it was deleted as per discussion (Deletion requests/File:Aksum Flag.jpg). The latter was deleted from Wikipedia as per discussion (WP:FFD#File:Tigray Flag.gif).
It seems simple enough to block Menilek as a duplicate account of the indefinitely-blocked Minilik, but I am not sure that this is fair, given that the new account is not specifically writing about himself. At the same time it is not fair for him to defer to himself as the provider of expert opinion (absent any source better than Myspace that would corroborate his credentials). I wonder if it might be a conflict of interest that the user is writing about the Beta Israel, whom he claims to represent, but here I could use additional opinions.
-- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:37, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Left notifications at User talk:Menilek and User talk:OneTopJob6. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:43, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- A lot of this all looks rather old, is there any evidance for recent (actual) infringments of policy. By your owen admision(by the way why all the locks on the diffs?) he has not attmepted to re-insert the disputed material.Slatersteven (talk) 22:13, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Well, I wondered about that. My concern is that this is happening long-term, but due to the account(s) being only intermittently active, it has largely stayed off-the-radar, so to speak. I think the most recent activity would fall under WP:NOR but, again, Menilek hasn't re-added the material. I had missed this earlier but he's actually said "As such an expert on the subject, that means that I to, myself, AM a source" (diff). This presumably means the rest of us are non-experts which would not seem to leave much room for discussion. I have to think this falls under WP:CIVIL and probably WP:V, though as it's happening on my talk page (rahter than main space) I am not sure about the latter. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:23, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I notice that at least some of the material appears to be sourced to third party sources. In fact he claims that all of the material is attributable to third party sources. Perhaps you could explain how he is in error in this regard (has he falsified sources for example?) in fact exactly what has he done that breached policy that has made it difficult to work with him?Slatersteven (talk) 22:43, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- The cite he sources, and the Biblical account mentioned, say "Ethiopia" (which again, brings up the ancient meaning of that name vs. modern Ethiopia). But his edit specifies "Aksum". This is not what the source says and, to me, looks like synthesis at best. The only place where it says the New Testament mention of Ethiopia is Aksum, is in his comment on my talk page. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:35, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- I notice that at least some of the material appears to be sourced to third party sources. In fact he claims that all of the material is attributable to third party sources. Perhaps you could explain how he is in error in this regard (has he falsified sources for example?) in fact exactly what has he done that breached policy that has made it difficult to work with him?Slatersteven (talk) 22:43, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- Well, I wondered about that. My concern is that this is happening long-term, but due to the account(s) being only intermittently active, it has largely stayed off-the-radar, so to speak. I think the most recent activity would fall under WP:NOR but, again, Menilek hasn't re-added the material. I had missed this earlier but he's actually said "As such an expert on the subject, that means that I to, myself, AM a source" (diff). This presumably means the rest of us are non-experts which would not seem to leave much room for discussion. I have to think this falls under WP:CIVIL and probably WP:V, though as it's happening on my talk page (rahter than main space) I am not sure about the latter. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:23, 13 February 2011 (UTC)