RichardWeiss (talk | contribs) |
|||
Line 476: | Line 476: | ||
* Always glad to hear from the peanut gallery, however you've come late to the dance and the music stopped long ago, but thanks for your opinion. [[User:Agwiii|Agwiii]] 20:54, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC) |
* Always glad to hear from the peanut gallery, however you've come late to the dance and the music stopped long ago, but thanks for your opinion. [[User:Agwiii|Agwiii]] 20:54, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC) |
||
*I agree with dab and mgm. At this point you need to either leave Wikipedia or stop making legal threats. It's inappropriate for you to continue editing articles while at the same time claiming that squeakbox is breaking the law by attempting to communicate with you. [[User:Rhobite|Rhobite]] 20:45, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC) |
*I agree with dab and mgm. At this point you need to either leave Wikipedia or stop making legal threats. It's inappropriate for you to continue editing articles while at the same time claiming that squeakbox is breaking the law by attempting to communicate with you. [[User:Rhobite|Rhobite]] 20:45, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC) |
||
*I |
* I think a response to a terminated discussion is a non sequitor. [[User:Agwiii|Agwiii]] 21:02, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC) |
Revision as of 21:02, 10 April 2005
Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents |
---|
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.
When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search) |
|
User:CPS deleting other people's comments
CPS is repeatedly deleting other people's comments from VfD and Talk pages. I have warned him in the past that he should refrain, but instead, he deleted my comments from his Talk page, and returned to his old behavior. I have blocked him for 24 hours, and have warned him that if he continues with this behavior, he will be blocked for 48 hours the next time, etc. RickK 05:47, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
- I'm guessing this user probably had some sort of reason for wanting to delete other people's comments. On the surface, it sounds terrible, but I would like to know what sort of justification he or she would have. Everyking 05:58, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Well there is no way of finding that out if someone deletes warnings on their talk page instead of talking :-( Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 07:38, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Theoretically, he or she might be deleting personal attacks, for all I know, or he or she might not be deleting comments at all, but simply moving them around, refactoring, or something of that sort. Anyway, I'm sure if he or she was asked nicely, he or she would stop. Everyking 08:21, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Well there is no way of finding that out if someone deletes warnings on their talk page instead of talking :-( Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 07:38, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is RickK's warning [1] it's firm but not rude.
This is what was deleted:[2] it's critism but not a personal attack.
But I'm willing to give dialog a go. I'll go do it now. Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 08:35, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This was his first Talk page deletion. RickK 10:08, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
There is a "semi-policy" which says that it is advisable to delete personal attacks on Talk pages. I don't know what a "semi-policy" is, but clearly it countenances the deletion of comments on Talk pages. As soon as you have a policy that sanctions the deletion of personal attacks, it opens the question as to what is a "personal attack". When is a personal attack just "criticism"? Who decides what is a personal attack and which personal attacks to delete? The person who feels attacked? Some neutral third-party? Also, again I ask: what policy gives RickK the authority to block somebody for this reason? The policies give administrators authority to block people in a limited number of situations. This is not one of them. We have an Arbitration Committee for dealing with behaviour that might require sanction that falls outside those specific situations. --BM 14:16, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- The policy that gives RickK the authority to block somebody is vandalism. CPS is deleting other user's comments on article talk pages (ie, not the user talk page). This can be construed as vandalism, and IMO, is a blockable offense. --Deathphoenix 15:25, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Well deleting user's comments on article talk pages is not prime facie vandalism since, as I said, there is a "semi-policy" that actually advises people to do this in the case of personal attacks; namely Wikipedia:Remove personal attacks. There might be some debate about whether something is a personal attack, but the consequence of getting that wrong should not be that one is summarily found guilty of "vandalism" and blocked forthwith. Moreover, assuming the behaviour in question is vandalism, with respect to vandalism, Wikipedia:Blocking policy states: Logged-in users that do essentially nothing but vandalism may also be blocked for the same time periods. However, user accounts that perform a mixture of valid edits and vandalism should not be blocked in this manner. Blocks should not be used against isolated incidents of vandalism. In other words, even if this behaviour is "vandalism", which is debatable, administrators are not authorized to block a logged-in user for vandalism, unless the account is only be used for vandalism. What do these policies mean if administrators can make up the rules as they go along? Do administrators blocking people actually pay any attention to these policies, or are they all doing what they consider to be "the right thing", reckoning that they will be backed up by the consensus? Are administrators actually expected to read and comply with these policies? If the administrators aren't expected to read and comply with them, why should anybody be expected to? --BM 16:05, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Obviously trying to apply Wikipedia:Remove personal attacks and getting it wrong is not a reason to be blocked. But that's not what happened here, so what is your argument? The key thing that you don't understand BM is that administrators are trusted members of the community and are supposed to use thier judgement. RickK warned the user that he'd block if he removed anymore comments.This is not a well meaning but misguided user trying to apply policy. This is someone who deleted comments from a vfd debate because they critisised his behaviour. I for one fully support the 24 hour block. (I wouldn't support a permenant block). Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 18:44, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Well deleting user's comments on article talk pages is not prime facie vandalism since, as I said, there is a "semi-policy" that actually advises people to do this in the case of personal attacks; namely Wikipedia:Remove personal attacks. There might be some debate about whether something is a personal attack, but the consequence of getting that wrong should not be that one is summarily found guilty of "vandalism" and blocked forthwith. Moreover, assuming the behaviour in question is vandalism, with respect to vandalism, Wikipedia:Blocking policy states: Logged-in users that do essentially nothing but vandalism may also be blocked for the same time periods. However, user accounts that perform a mixture of valid edits and vandalism should not be blocked in this manner. Blocks should not be used against isolated incidents of vandalism. In other words, even if this behaviour is "vandalism", which is debatable, administrators are not authorized to block a logged-in user for vandalism, unless the account is only be used for vandalism. What do these policies mean if administrators can make up the rules as they go along? Do administrators blocking people actually pay any attention to these policies, or are they all doing what they consider to be "the right thing", reckoning that they will be backed up by the consensus? Are administrators actually expected to read and comply with these policies? If the administrators aren't expected to read and comply with them, why should anybody be expected to? --BM 16:05, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I've occasionally (and probably more than anyone else) employed Wikipedia:Remove personal attacks, and I can confirm that it's rather tricky and easy to get wrong. If applied widely it might well make a Wiki unusable because it could become infested with trolls determined to take offense at the least negative statement. It can be a very effective tool, however, for keeping a discussion on track where one or two participants get into flame war mode, or where one obnoxious person is trying to bait you with insults. My rule of thumb is that if a sentence or fragment is solely intended to draw a negative inference concerning another editor it can be removed without changing the salient facts conveyed. "There is no evidence to support X's claim--he's clearly lying" can be reduced to "There is no evidence to support X's claim." --Tony Sidaway|Talk 17:11, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- This user seems to have taken any comment that was slightly negative as a personal attack. In this case I think Rick was right to block CPS. Mgm|(talk) 18:37, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
- As do I. CPS aapears to be happy to use personal attacks a plenty himself though: you pathetic wiki-cop keep trying, dimwit look it up yourself dimwit get a life you jackass Republican scumbag remove personal attack: this is the chickenshit hillbilly's idea of an insult Note that last one was a removal of someone elses vote on a vfd debate. Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 18:56, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Whether the behaviour is appropriate or not, neither Mgm nor Theresa is addressing the fundamental point. The main question is not whether this behaviour is appropriate or not, it is WHO DECIDES and WHO APPLIES THE SANCTION for misbehaviour. The project has policies. What do those policies mean? In this case, one can argue about whether the behaviour was permitted under Wikipedia:Remove personal attacks. But even if it was inappropriate behaviour, it is not VANDALISM, and even if it were, administrators cannot block logged-in users for VANDALISM under the blocking policy. Whenever this type of topic comes up, people always dodge the basic question as to administrator powers and conformity with policy, and try to focus on the behaviour that prompted the admin action. The presumption seems to be that if the behaviour was inappropriate (even if there is no policy against it), then any administrator has power to deal with it. It is like trying to excuse a cop for roughting someone up by arguing: "Well anyway he was guilty, and look, besides that, he isn't a very nice guy". My point is that in general ADMINISTRATORS HAVE NO POWERS to discipline logged-in regular members for misbehaviour, except in certain specific situations defined by policy. This isn't one of those situations. The only people with power to deal with it are JIMBO and the ARBITRATION COMMITTEE (as a group). That is the issue here. If you want to tell me I'm wrong and that admins have greater powers than I think, please point me to where it says that. --BM 21:06, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Could someone block this guy for excessive lawyering? ;-) This is an encyclopedia, not an experiment in democracy. --Carnildo 21:55, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Actually, it isn't me who is excessively legalistic. The whole ethos of the Wikipedia is legalistic -- what with its extensive "policies" and "semi-policies" (good grief!), and a quasi-judicial "arbitration committee", with "petitioners", "respondents", "evidence", etc. However, it is all a bit of a sham, in my opinion, because there seems to be a group of administrators who basically discipline other members as they see fit, and the fact that there is no policy which authorizes their actions doesn't seem to slow them down much. I really don't even object to this, since I'm the God-King on my own web-site, and on my own site if the Terms of Use stop me from keeping things running smoothly, I just change the Terms of Use. If Jimbo wanted to designate "super-administrators" with greater discretion than others to block other users, etc, regardless of policy, I wouldn't object. The only thing I object to, really, is the intellectual dishonesty of the current situation -- the fact that administrators are described as "janitors", etc, subject to the same policies and consensus as everyone else, but that it is not really so. I think the actual system should be made clear. It would be kind of nice to know who those super-administrators are, too, and how and why they were chosen. Either that, or maybe people should be doing what the policies say they are supposed to be doing (and not doing what the policies say they shouldn't be doing.) --BM 22:13, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Whether the behaviour is appropriate or not, neither Mgm nor Theresa is addressing the fundamental point. The main question is not whether this behaviour is appropriate or not, it is WHO DECIDES and WHO APPLIES THE SANCTION for misbehaviour. The project has policies. What do those policies mean? In this case, one can argue about whether the behaviour was permitted under Wikipedia:Remove personal attacks. But even if it was inappropriate behaviour, it is not VANDALISM, and even if it were, administrators cannot block logged-in users for VANDALISM under the blocking policy. Whenever this type of topic comes up, people always dodge the basic question as to administrator powers and conformity with policy, and try to focus on the behaviour that prompted the admin action. The presumption seems to be that if the behaviour was inappropriate (even if there is no policy against it), then any administrator has power to deal with it. It is like trying to excuse a cop for roughting someone up by arguing: "Well anyway he was guilty, and look, besides that, he isn't a very nice guy". My point is that in general ADMINISTRATORS HAVE NO POWERS to discipline logged-in regular members for misbehaviour, except in certain specific situations defined by policy. This isn't one of those situations. The only people with power to deal with it are JIMBO and the ARBITRATION COMMITTEE (as a group). That is the issue here. If you want to tell me I'm wrong and that admins have greater powers than I think, please point me to where it says that. --BM 21:06, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- As do I. CPS aapears to be happy to use personal attacks a plenty himself though: you pathetic wiki-cop keep trying, dimwit look it up yourself dimwit get a life you jackass Republican scumbag remove personal attack: this is the chickenshit hillbilly's idea of an insult Note that last one was a removal of someone elses vote on a vfd debate. Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 18:56, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Firstly blocking someone for 24 hours from editing a website is nothing like a cop roughing someone up. Please let's keep things in perspective. Really BM you need to pick your fights mate. Yeah you're right administrators are more than janitors. They are trusted members of the community. trusted that is not to abuse their powers. RickK did not abuse his powers in this case. We are all here for the same reason. Namely to build an encylopedia. Our policies are here to help us do that, and to prevent admins from abusing their power. Policies are not laws, and they are not straight jackets. This is a clear case of someone who was being disruptive, they were warned not do do something, and that warning was reasonable, yet they persisted. Note that we have no policy that states admins should use a measure of common sense. The power that RickK, and other admins have comes from the community. If you think he shouldn't have blocked CPS you are going to have to go to the community on it. Start a rfc. Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 23:24, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I think there's a problem in that admins tend to make reference to their powers too often. When asking someone to stop doing something, one need only ask; there isn't necessarily any need to threaten: most people will stop even if they have no idea you're an admin. But an arrogant pretense of authority is enough to goad some people into continuing whatever behavior they shouldn't have been doing. A person should really have to be causing some problems to warrant a block. Page move vandalism, uploading vandalistic images, repeatedly blanking pages, etc. Blocking people is serious business: if a revert is a slap in the face, then a block breaks a nose and knocks out some teeth. It's not something one should do without a very clear and indisputable reason. A block does two very serious things: it prevents a person from contributing, when they could be doing a lot of good work, and it marginalizes the person and fills the person with animosity, and turns them off from the project. So we need to be more careful. If you can reasonably expect some people to dispute the block, don't do it. Everyking 00:12, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I agree that blocking should not be undertaken lightly. And I agree that polite warnings should be given not heavy handed ones. But I support RickK's block in this instance. Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 00:50, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Theresa, I appreciate the advice, but in fact I am picking my fights. If I chose to protest cases where everybody was protesting -- where everybody thought that the admin had been unreasonable and the outcome unjust -- the issue would be buried. Nobody argues that administrators should be able to abuse their powers in order to achieve an unreasonable result. Everybody will be saying the administrator abused his powers in those cases. Those are not the interesting cases. I am saying it is an abuse of powers, EVEN WHEN THE OUTCOME IS REASONABLE. It is only when the result is reasonable that there is an issue about the process. My argument is that Wikipedia cannot have 400+ administrators all exercising their "judgement" about what is reasonable. If the policies are getting in the way of administrators dealing efficiently with problems, then we should fix the policies. The blocking policy SAYS, very clearly, with no latitude for interpretation, that administrators are not supposed to block logged-in users for vandalism unless the account has been, in essence, used exclusively for vandalism. If that is not the consensus of the community, and administrators are not obliged to follow the policy when in their "judgement" it shouldn't be applicable, then why does the policy state that? The policy could easily state what you say is the de-facto consensus: "Administrators can block logged-in members for vandalism after a warning for up to 24 hours. But it doesn't state that. Why not? If you think it should, then why not try to get consensus for a change in the policy. If the de facto consensus is already there, it shouldn't be hard. What is the meaning of these policies if any administrator can substitute his or her own opinion as to what the policies should be? Why bother having written policies that contradict what you claim is the unwritten consensus? --BM 00:16, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Let's look at the blocking policy:
"Sysops may, at their judgement, block IP addresses that disrupt the normal functioning of Wikipedia. (emphasis mine)
Now does removing people's signed comments from a vfd debate disrupt the functioning of vfd? Of course it does! When the admin who has to decide whether to delete a page or not comes to the page they need to be able to read through what everyone has said. If you don't agree that this user should have been blocked you really should start a rfc and see what the community thinks Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 00:50, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Well, now you a shifting to another pretext for the action. The disruption policy. Which is it, disruption or vandalism? And you've dodged my basic point and your previous answer, and are now arguing about policy again. So does that mean you have conceded my point that administrators should follow policy? By the way, the sentence you quoted refers to IP addresses. User:CPS isn't an IP address. --BM 01:21, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Of course administrators should follow policy. But no policy can cover all situations. Here is where we have a difference of opinion - I'm saying that administrators have to use thier judgement sometimes, whereas you are arguing that they shouldn't. We can argue this all day but we won't get anywhere. I feel admins are there to serve the community by making descisions and exercising good judgement. They shouldn't abuse thier powers, but they shouldn't be afraid to use them when doing so is the right thing to do. You are not going to change my mind on that. BTW I never claimed he was blocked for vandalism and neither did RickK, and we are not arguing pretexts we are giving reasons.
Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 01:38, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- You are correct that it wasn't RickK that claimed this block was under the rubric of vandalism. He didn't bother to mention which policy sanctioned it, and I dare say he was not detained much by the need to find one, since he was exercising his "judgement" and that, according to you, is sufficient.
- Yep, you'll notice how he also posted his actions here for review.
- So lets look at "disruption". If you actually look at User:CPS' edit history, you find only two cases where CPS edited Talk pages or VfD and removed comments, going all the way back into February. One of these was on Mar 24, where he twice removed the same Megan1964 comment from a VfD vote that was referenced above. This was not a vote, but a comment critical of CPS' vote on VfD. One can argue about whether it was a personal attack,
- It clearly isn't and he was warned not to do it a second time but he went ahead and did it anyway.
- but as we discussed above, there is a policy allowing removal of personal attacks,
- No there isn't.
- and if there is a (semi-)policy allowing for their removal, then it should not be deemed a blockable disruption if someone somewhat oversteps consensus about what constitutes a personal attack.
- Yes it should in a clear case like this one
- The other case was on Mar 21, where CPS blanked User_talk:198.82.71.55. This was his own Talk page from before he registered as User:CPS, and the comments he removed were all in Nov-Dec, 2004.
- Irrelavent. The block was for the above two removals of other people's comments from a vfd page.
- So, removing one marginal comment on VfD, and blanking the Talk page he had as an anon before registering. Still think this was sufficient disruption of Wikipedia to warrant being blocked, Theresa? To me it doesn't look disruptive at all. --BM 02:12, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I know exactly what he did, i read through his past contributions before commenting here. I even posted a link further up the page where he removed a vote from a vfd listing. So yes I still think he warrents a block. Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 02:36, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, IMO, it was vandalism, and my opinion only, no-one else's. BM, I think I mentioned this before, but if every admin did things the way you suggest, they'd be looking up policy 2.3, section A, paragraph 32, subparagraph C "Woops, better check another section", while bad faith editors are hammering away at Wikipedia and laughing at us for being so slow to react. Sometimes, police, customs agents, detectives act on instinct honed from experience. I think admins are trusted members of the community who are experienced enough to spot a bad faith editor when they see it. If they're wrong, there are many other admins who can revert. I've read this board long enough to know that other admins can and will revert when they think the action is wrong. --Deathphoenix 03:06, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Nonsense. Wikipedia:Blocking policy is short. So are the other policies. An admin can be reasonably expected to know these policies. You'd think before an admin blocked somebody, he might concern himself with whether he is allowed to do that. Nobody compelled them to become admins, and since the community is trusting them to follow policy and comply with consensus, they had better know what the policies and consensus are. Besides, the policies are simple. For example Wikipedia:Blocking policy gives admins wide latitude to deal with vandalism by blocking anonymous IP's. That is the "mop and bucket brigade" part of the job. It cautions admins to be very circumspect and conservative when blocking logged-in users. Admin's don't have to carry and thick law books. It is simple: when dealing with other established members of Wikipedia, you have very little weight to throw around, so don't. That is why we have the Arbitration Committee. Unfortunately, there are quite a lot of admins who won't accept this. --BM 03:40, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Theresa so we are down to whether removing one comment on VFD was "disruptive". Note that RickK's justification above is "repeatedly deleting other people's comments on VFD and Talk pages". "Repeated" turns out to be one comment deleted twice. Let us look at the edit histories.
- At 6:21 21 Mar, he blanked his old User_talk page from when he was an anon.
- At 6:24 21 Mar, RickK asked him on his Talk page why he had done this. CPS doesn't seem to have replied.
- At 10:26 21 Mar, Megan1964 made the following comment on VfD/List of dead rappers: Well I guess your plea is better than simply blanking/removing/censoring other people's votes you dont agree with which you have a previous record of doing btw. Thank goodness you don't run a democracy. P.S. I seriously doubt there is a pro-Libertarian bias on Wikipedia. Megan1967 10:26, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC) This seems like a personal attack to me, although in fairness, it is in response to an ad hominem comment by CPS concerning Megan's vote. Whether it is a personal attack or not, I can see someone reasonably considering it to be one. Incidentally, I'm not sure where Megan1967 found evidence for this accusation; certainly it wasn't recent behaviour.
- At 10:47 21 Mar, he reverted the comment, with the edit summary was rv immature and irrelevant remarks.
- At 20:34 21 Mar, RickK restored the deleted comment, with the edit summary restoring Megan's comments improperly deleted by CPS
- At 20:36 21 Mar, RickK wrote on his Talk page: PLEASE stop removing other people's comments from Talk and VfD pages. This is vandalism, and will result in your being blocked from editing. RickK 20:36, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
- Three days later, at 3:15, 24 Mar he reverted the Megan1967 comment in the VfD again, this time with the edit summary, these are personal attacks meant to distract from the actual issue at hand...please Megan1967, grow up. This makes it clear that he considered the comment to be a personal attack, the removal of which is allowed by the "semi-" policy, Wikipedia:Remove personal attacks.
- A few minutes later at 3:21, 24 Mar he removed the two edits by RickK from his Talk page.
- At 5:43, RickK blocked him for repeatedly deleting other people's comments on VfD and Talk pages. Has been cautioned before).
From this sequence, it is clear to me that CPS thought he was removing personal attacks from a VFD, and the User Talk pages he was editing were his own. Also, RickK warned him about vandalism, but these edits were not vandalism, and anyway as we discussed above, administrators don't have the authority to block logged-in users for vandalism. As for whether it was disruption, I don't see how removing one comment from a VfD vote, especially the one in question, could be construed as disruption of the Wikipedia rising to the level of blocking. Nor can I see it being disruption justifying a block to edit your own Talk pages. --BM 03:22, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Well, if any admin agrees with you, they will unblock CPS. FWIW (not being an admin), I don't think RickK was in the wrong here. --Deathphoenix 03:38, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Exactly. The consensus (among the people who read this page) is that the block is appropriate. Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 08:32, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The amount of time spent in pointless, wasteful, inane wiki-lawyering here boggles my mind. Get a life, and use that energy doing something which actually contributes to the real point of this project - produce some content.
Having said that, one comment, about the claim that "administrators don't have the authority to block logged-in users for vandalism". If that were true, all vandals would have to do is sign up for a user-name, and we'd have to resort to the ArbComm to get rid of them. People block vandals with user-names every day. The policy says something rather different. Noel (talk) 14:02, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Not really. Why do we have these policies if it is "inane wiki-lawyering" to actually read them? Have you not read the blocking policy? What it actually says is that a logged-in user cannot be banned for vandalism unless the account is used "effectively" only for vandalism. So, yes, what you put forward as obviously stupid is precisely what the policy states: if someone intent on vandalism creates an account and makes some number of reasonable-looking edits, then according to the policy he cannot be blocked for vandalism by an administrator. It also says that a logged-in user cannot be blocked for "isolated vandalism". Presumably the vandal can still be blocked by Jimbo or the ArbComm. I would not argue that this policy is especially logical, but that is what it clearly states. (Really. Read it.) So what is the solution? (1) all the administrators just ignore the policy and try to follow the "unwritten consensus" about when they can block people, whatever they might think that consensus is; or (2) we revise the policy so that it reflects the de facto consensus. It is obvious that most admins have decided on option (1). Since few people seem to care what the policies really state, option (2) is just too much trouble. This is basically my point: the policies are more or less shams and nobody pays much attention to them except when they happen to support his pre-conceived position. When they don't support what someone wants to do -- well too bad for the policy and any "inane wiki-lawyers" with the poor taste and lack of common sense to mention the policies. --BM 14:25, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- BM, I think you may be slightly misinterpreting the blocking policy. You have repeatedly quoted the following line: "Logged-in users that do essentially nothing but vandalism may also be blocked for the same time periods. However, user accounts that perform a mixture of valid edits and vandalism should not be blocked in this manner." Taken out of context, it appears that logged-in users should not be blocked, but if you notice, the phrase "the same time periods" and "in this manner" refers to the earlier sentences. I recently became an administrator and I have read through the relevant policies very carefully; this is how I interpret the Vandalism section: Dynamic IPs should be blocked for 24 hours. Static IPs should initially be blocked for 24 hours; repeat violators for increasing amounts of time up to one month; and that there are various rules of thumb for the schedule of increases. Then comes "Logged-in users that do essentially nothing but vandalism may also be blocked for the same time periods. However, user accounts that perform a mixture of valid edits and vandalism should not be blocked in this manner." (emphasis mine) I interpret this to mean that if a logged-in user is only vandalizing, he may be blocked for the same time periods, that is, up to a month for repeated vandalism. However, an account that is performing a mixture of edits should not be blocked in this manner; that is, not using the same increasing block lengths. However, it does not say that logged-in users who have good and bad edits should not be blocked at all. This seems the most logical interpretation to me, but perhaps we can reword it if you feel it is ambiguous. — Knowledge Seeker দ 18:43, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- BM, there's some page I spent a while looking for (and couldn't find) that basically said "not all policy on Wikipedia is written down". (It might have been Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines#How are policies decided? that I was thinking of: In many cases, policies are not always formally written down. Or perhaps the page I was thinking of has been edited since I saw it. And of course there's always Wikipedia:Ignore all rules - simply use common sense .. Being too wrapped up in rules can cause you to lose perspective.)
- I agree that there is a problem where policies are more or less shams and nobody pays much attention to them except when they happen to support [their] pre-conceived position. However, more detailed written policies aren't the answer to this - without more time and energy than we are (in practise) willing to expend (first to formulate policy, second to have everyone learn it, and third to do it in practise), that will make the problem worse, not better. Perhaps we have some janitors who aren't suited to mop-n-broom duty, whose "common sense" (above) isn't up to snuff. But the answer to that is to exercise better care on selecting janitors. I myself would be in favour of a mandatory "probationary period" - i.e. new janitors get a month on the job, so people can see them actually in action, and then have to go through the approval process again to get permanent janitor status. Noel (talk) 16:00, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
BM is absoluetly right. If people think that current policies are unworkable, they should change them, not disregard them. The persistent attitude that procedure and consistency in enforcement of policy are irrelevant, as long as there is a general consensus that the result is right, is what gives rise to the sneering and the threats and everything else that gives Wikipedia the Lord of the Flies feel. At least that's what turned me off Wikipedia. Zocky 22:42, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Coming back to this discussion after a bit of gap, I think Noel is leaning a bit hard on the "in this manner" phrase to find justification in the blocking policy for an admin blocking a logged-in user with a reasonable number of edits for "vandalism". Why would the policy make an exception for a logged in user, anyway? It seems to me clear that the intent of the policy is that a logged-in user who has made a reasonable number of good faith edits and is a "member of the community" is to be given the benefit of the doubt and some immunity from the actions of administrators. That is why we have the Arbitration Committee and Jimbo. A user who is not logged in need not be treated with that deference, and administrators need not be slowed down in dealing with vandalism from such users. The in-between case of a named user who starts committing vandalism without having established himself as a member of the community (by making a reasonable number of good faith edits) is treated more or less the same as an anon user. That is, creating an account is not a get-out-of-jail free card.
As for whether the policies should be revised, I think there are several people who would be willing to work on revising the policies, if it was not apparently a waste of time and if they were not so likely to be insulted as "wiki lawyers", etc. Such a revision would be difficult: many users would resist policies that gave administrators de jure the authority which they habitually assume de facto. If you look at the history of these matters, only policies that very clearly circumscribe the authority of administrators ever pass. (These circumscribed policies are then very liberally interpreted by the administrators: look at 3RR.) But any revised policies which did not give administrators something approaching their de facto powers would simply be ignored in the name of "common sense", with the Arb Comm (and Jimbo) more likely to censure critics than admins who overstep the policies. --BM 22:12, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Apparent vote packing on WP:IFD
I noticed a recent sudden flurry of votes to delete on the listing for autofellatio 2. Investigating, I note that User:Achilles has spammed the user talk pages of people who voted delete in another recent IFD listing of a similar picture. He has made no genuine attempt to inform other users, only those whom he must have believed would be likely to vote to delete.
Between 21:05 on April 6 and 04:41 on April 7 Achilles made some 57 comments on user talk pages with the title "Images and media for deletion votes", containing the text:
- I am contacting people who previously helped to vote to delete a generally objectionable photograph by a vote of 88 to 21, and who might be unaware that immediately after that image was voted to be deleted someone posted another which was very similar in content. My objections to this, and the previous image that was voted to be deleted might be based upon reasons far different from any that you have, but I do object to it, and consider the posting of such images to be acts of asinine stupidity, which burdens the project and its major educational aims in ways that they should not be burdened, and can be extremely detrimental to the acceptance and growth of WIkipedia's use and influence. Thus far those who I believe to be in the extreme minority of Wikipedians who would like to include these images, many who have been channeled to the voting page from the article with which it is associated have dominated the voting, 23 to 12 (as of the time that I composed this message). I would like to be somewhat instrumental in shedding a bit more light upon the issue, and if possible, helping to turn the tide against its inclusion. It might also be necessary to begin making an effort to establish an explicit Wikipedia policy against explicite photographic depictions of humans engaged in erotic, auto-erotic, or quasi-erotic activities. To my limited knowledge such images have not been accepted as appropriate anywhere else within this project, and frankly I can agree with those who are casually labeled prudes for opposing their inclusion, that they should not be. Vitally important information that might be unwelcome by some is one thing that should never be deleted, but un-needed images that can eventually prevent or impede many thousands or millions of people from gaining access to the great mass of truly important information that Wikipedia provides is quite another matter. There are vitally important distinctions to be made. Whatever your reasons, or final decisions upon the matter, I am appealing for more input on the voting that is occurring at Wikipedia:Images_and_media_for_deletion. ~ Achilles †
I'm not sure how to treat this--I wouldn't take action in any case as I've voted on that listed item so I'm an involved party. However it does seem to be a pretty gross attempt to sabotage the proper discussion of an item listed on IfD by stacking it with those disposed to delete. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 09:56, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Although I wasn't contacted directly, I only found out about it because of other peoples' talk pages on my watchlist. Having come across something similar recently (Schoolwatch) I came to the thought that it neither contravenes (current) policy nor bullies people into voting - those contacted are capable of making their own mind up. I can definately see why it is looked down upon, though. violet/riga (t) 10:11, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- My concern is that it was not an honest attempt to draw public attention to the vote. This could be done on Village Pump. This was, admitted in its own wording "I am contacting people who previously helped to vote to delete a generally objectionable photograph" a campaign for deletion. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 10:16, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Is putting up a near identical image the day after the original was deleted by a huge majority 'honest'? Trampled 10:52, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- My concern is that it was not an honest attempt to draw public attention to the vote. This could be done on Village Pump. This was, admitted in its own wording "I am contacting people who previously helped to vote to delete a generally objectionable photograph" a campaign for deletion. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 10:16, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Certainly, although I did not do that myself. We do not vote on classes of image, but judge each one individually. However I think I also get the point that you're clearly attempting to divert the issue from the dishonesty of the campaign by Achilles. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 11:36, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- These 2 images are essentially the same issue, and I probably would have missed this new image if Achilles had not brought it to my attention. My point is, we've already voted on this issue. The nays had a large majority. Just because the image is slightly different, it does not change the outcome. Thus, I think it was fair to request that the people who voted before vote again, especially considering how easy it is to miss these votes. Trampled 12:20, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Certainly, although I did not do that myself. We do not vote on classes of image, but judge each one individually. However I think I also get the point that you're clearly attempting to divert the issue from the dishonesty of the campaign by Achilles. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 11:36, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- We have not already voted on this issue. This is evidenced by the number of people who have voted differently on the two distinct images, and those who observing the different circumstances have explicity chosen to abstain (a couple of people have asserted that they did this, in the course of this discussion.
- And again you miss the point that this was not an honest attempt to publicize the vote. It was specifically targetted at people who voted delete in a similar case. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 12:27, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The people who voted differently voted to delete because of the copyright-vio issue. They did not make up the majority of nay voters however. I would concede that it would be unfair to only ask the nay voters to vote again if the images were quite different and Achilles was seeking to promote a POV view. However, these images are near identical, and can't be considered to be two seperate votes. Trampled 12:57, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Well you've conceded that there were different issues in the earlier vote. The rest seems to be special pleading on your part. That'll do for me. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 13:00, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- No, that is not special pleading. The majority issue with the last autofellatio picture was not the copyright issue. The reasons for both votes are the same. Trampled 13:39, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I received one of these requests to vote. I chose not to vote, as I see this image as being less offensive than the previous (but not so much so as to vote the other way). I'm also concerned with a message going only to those who are likely to vote in a particular direction; if Achilles had suggest to all those who voted either way in the previous vote, that would have been fine. I also have no problem with someone approaching a small number of people with whom they have had significant contact with in the past, but Achilles is a stranger to me.-gadfium 10:17, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- It just seems to be one of the early steps towards proper political parties formingGeni 10:25, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- That's a very, very bad thing. silsor 16:20, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- I agree completely with Silsor on this point. I can't see how political parties on wikipedia could be compatible with NPOV which I beleive Jimbo has said is "absolute and non-negotiable" (or words to that effect). Thryduulf 17:08, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- That's a very, very bad thing. silsor 16:20, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- It just seems to be one of the early steps towards proper political parties formingGeni 10:25, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Simply contact the keep voters and putting a note on the village pump should help in making this more fair. Mgm|(talk) 10:42, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- Well we're not supposed to be using Wikipedia for political campaigning. I hadn't heard of the "schoolwatch" thing and it sounds like another disturbing sign. There's also the not-inconsiderable question of whether we should condone the spamming of 57 user talk pages on *any* issue. MacGyver, I cannot believe that you're actually suggesting that I should imitate such actions. Village Pump, yes, spamming keep voters no. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 10:44, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
We'll all soon have on our talk pages! Yes, it's certainly a slippery slope and we don't want someone spamming loads of people. violet/riga (t) 11:01, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thinking back, I remembered this use of a bot (Rambot) to spam hundreds of talk pages. Wasn't there some discussion of an anti-spam policy back then? violet/riga (t) 11:10, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Well I think I'm more concerned about the spamming issue than anything else. Vote packing I'm confident the people who do VfD and IfD duty are well able to take into account, but the possibility of our accepting spamming user talk has a bad smell to it in the long term. I don't want to give commercial spammers a yellow light (which is all they'd need) to start using wikibots to spam editors whose profiles indicate a possible interest in X or Y. Oh well, death of Wikipedia predicted, film at 11 and all that, but I do think we should look at this from the point of view of policy.
- Obviously this isn't the right forum for that, so I'll try to get a policy proposal together on Wikipedia:Village pump (policy). --Tony Sidaway|Talk 11:28, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I am glad I have been notified about the new vote on the autofellatio image. I am strongly opposed to inclusion of such explicit material - this is an encyclopedia, for crying out loud! I see it as a legitimate method of campaigning for votes. I concur with MacGyverMagic - if you disagree with the deletion, start a campaign in the opposite direction. - Mike Rosoft 11:32, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- If there's one thing that I think would make me think twice about Wikipedia, it would be if it were to become accepted as a medium for political campaigning of this kind. I don't think I'm alone in this, not by a long chalk. As another editor said recently, if this becomes the Jesusland encyclopedia you won't see us for dust. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 11:37, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've created Wikipedia:Watch as an experiment to work around this. It would be nice to get some discussion about its usefulness at the talk. Do remember, however, that the ones there at the moment are just examples. violet/riga (t) 12:41, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Brilliant idea. This is a subscribable system. I hope it isn't premature, but I'm so delighted I announced it on Village pump news. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 12:48, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I'm one of the people who was contacted, and in this case, I chose to vote. I don't see anything wrong with this because, as Violetriga has pointed out, similar things have happened on VfD with the school voting, and all the VfD votes (minus sockpuppets, new users, etc.) count, even when the voting users admit that they were contacted to vote. Other factors such as the m:Association of Inclusionist Wikipedians listing pages that require "immediate attention" mean that it is impossible to completely eliminate vote stacking or campaigning, nor is it necessarily wrong. --Deathphoenix 12:46, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Can I take the opportunity to ask how either the copyright status, or the content in Autofellatio 2 is different? (a) both images are copyrighted, and (b) both are gay porn. There must be thousands of copyrighted gay porn images on the internet, and hundreds illustrating autofellatio. Are we going to vote on them all? But for WP:POINT I would be tempted to upload a few dozen and put them all on VfD saying they are each a separate case. dab (ᛏ) 14:02, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Virtually all images on Wikipedia are "copyrighted" in that someone holds the copyright. The holder of the copyright of the latter image had explicitly granted a right to use it, with author credit (which we always give anyway where possible), for any purpose at all. Whether the image was or was not classifiable as "gay porn" is neither here nor there. The images were sourced differently, showed different people and different occasions. They are different images. No you cannot apply one IfD vote as if it were a vote on a whole class of images. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 14:52, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Achilles should have been more careful in how they worded what they said, but I for one am very grateful to him for contacting me. I had already voted to delete the previous example. I had no idea someone had put it back on. in my opinion the person who re downloaded it is at fault; given that, i.e. the rules had already been ignored or broken, I think Achilles was fully justified. Well done, --SqueakBox 14:30, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- No rules were ignored or broken in uploading this *new* picture. Apparently Achilles did not contact everybody on the previous vote, only those who he thought would agre with him that this image should be deleted. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 14:52, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
First of all I'd like to note that the two images are different and merit different IFD votes. I voted delete on the first and keep on the second. Uploading autofellatio2 was entirely within rights and decency. My main point, though, is to note further instances of "vote stacking" with regards to this issue. I was fortunate enough to receive two "spams" on my talk page, both of which influenced my vote. First, on March 22 User:Limeheadnyc (Timbo) contacted me (he indicated it was because I voted to keep autofellatio inline in the article) to inform me that the image was up for IFD. I doubt he contacted those who voted against inclusion of the image. Next, User:Quadell contacted me March 27 to inform me of the changed copyright status of the image. I suspect I was not the only one he contacted. So User:Achilles is not the only one who may be at fault here, nor is it confined to those on one side of the issue. Personally, I think contacting people based on how they voted on very similar issues is acceptable, but I would draw the line at contacting people who have not expressed an opinion on a very similar issue. LizardWizard 18:43, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- I noticed Quadell's notices for the original autofellatio image. He was tallying votes and asked several people questions for clarification. In particular a number of people had said "keep if it isn't a copyvio" and he wanted to make sure that, the image having been found on a porn site, the voter wanted to change his vote to "delete". That isn't campaigning, it's conscientious tallying.
- On investigating I find that it is true, however, that on March 22-23 User:Limeheadnyc contacted some people who had voted inline on a poll on autofellatio and notified them that the image had been put up for deletion for the fourth time. In addition to you, he contacted User:Austin Hair, User:Christiaan, User:Improv, User:OldakQuill and User:Postdif. Six users in all. Had he wanted to spam he could have gone for all forty-odd, but he seems to have exercised some restraint. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 19:32, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I did indeed contact some people about Autofellatio.jpg. I was (or thought I was) familiar with those editors' views on the subject through various means, and although I had perhaps not interacted with them on talk pages before, I thought they would appreciate the note. One should also note that, had I wanted to influence the outcome of that vote (which was already quite lopsided), I should have contacted many more people! As it were, I was more contacting them to see if they wanted to contribute to the discussion – I felt like there were some rampant misunderstandings and half-truths (or zero-truths) in the discussion, and I didn't have the stamena to keep up a balancing viewpoint. I think all of the users I contacted (save Austin Hair, though I could be wrong) did indeed contribute to the discussion wonderfully. So in that sense I was trying to promote discussion rather than overtly engineer a specific outcome, but I can see the similarity. TIMBO (T A L K) 22:52, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't have a problem with Achilles message to me at all. First, given that the new autofellatio image was posted after a very large majority of people voted to remove a similar image (by both absolute numbers and percentages), a certain amount of outrage on his part seems somewhat justifiable. I must say that for the handful of people who insist on having these images in the Wikipedia, contrary to the clear consensus, to start yelling "vote packing" when they are caught trying to upload/keep another one also seems a bit outrageous to me. I suppose that if the vote had gone by unobserved with the result being "keep" that tne next thing to have happened when the image was more widely noticed would be for its proponents to express shock and outrage when someone put it up for IFD again. --BM 20:10, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Your comment is filled with loaded language. "caught trying to upload/keep another one". Is that how you regard other editors' attempts to make Wikipedia a better encyclopedia? You may disagree with them, but there are people (at least one arbcom member among them) who genuinely think this campaign to rid Wikipedia of encyclopedic images of an unusual, extremely rate sex act is wrong. You say "if the vote had gone by unobserved". But the listing was made openly by a person who wanted the image deleted on the appopriate forum. This was not done in darkness but in the full light of day.
I regret that tonight, against my express opposition, another person has taken to spamming supporters of the keep vote. I hope both he and the original 50+ talk pages spammer are severely reproved for their action. I am truly saddened by this divisive and unconscionable activity. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 20:27, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- can't do anything this time round. Better start putting that policy together fast.Geni 20:42, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Additionally you *still* seem to think it's okay for an image to be put up for deletion as many times as it takes for you to get your way. Do you not realise what a vile, unreasonable concept that is? --Tony Sidaway|Talk 20:31, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- well the record for an article appears to be at least 4Geni 20:42, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- and, if you are referring to the last vote, there was one full IFD, with very few participants, followed by two IFD's which were aborted prematurely. This was followed by the vote in which 81% of the votes, with wide participation, wanted the image deleted. Tony insists on characterizing this sequence of events as putting an image up for deletion as many times as it takes. By the way, even if that were an accurate characterization of events, I don't see anything wrong with holding repeated votes as more and more people become aware of an issue, until sanity prevails. However, that isn't actually what happened in this case. There were two votes: one sparse, a few months later, another one. --BM 22:55, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- "I don't see anything wrong with holding repeated votes as more and more people become aware of an issue, until sanity prevails." i.e. until you get the outcome you want. Thryduulf 22:59, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- BM, you're fooling yourself if you don't see a pattern here. The original autofellatio image was summarily deleted several times, overwritten by a drawing, and even replaced by a much-degraded copy of the same image, without a single vote being taken. It was also listed for deletion four times, and a number of anti-image people did indeed characterize it as as many times as it takes. I also note your loaded use of the word "sanity" to describe your own opinion, forgetting that many other wikipedia editors have different opinions. Shame on you. Shame on you. Shame on you. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 23:06, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Tony, you seem unduly agitated by this. Let me give you some advice that others have given me: you ought to pick your battles better. Flying to the barricades to defend an image of some guy sucking his penis that 80% of Wikipedia editors don't want in the encyclopedia is not picking your battles. Nor is it the best moment to be calling down "shame" on other people, guy. --BM 23:17, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- If 80% of wikipedians truly want this image deleted, why are you having to fight so hard for your opinion? If it was that clear cut then there wouldn't be any need for you to have spammed in excess of 50 talk pages and you wouldn't need to battle - each time it would quietly get voted out. In the previous vote many people it seems voted against the image because of its non-free liscence not its content. From what I can see of Tony's conduct in this debate, it has consistently been of a higher standard than yours. Thryduulf 23:32, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, it was Achilles who posted messages on Talk pages calling attention to the new vote. But I don't blame him. As for why his message was needed, IFD is not a place to which a lot of people regularly pay attention. When their attention is drawn to issues that arise there, it seems there is consensus that images such as these do not serve any useful encyclopedic purpose. On the contrary. --BM 23:41, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- My appologies for confusing you with Achilles. The previous consensus showed that that image was not suitable for Wikipedia, in no small part due to its copyright status - indeed at least one voter has stated that was the sole reaosn behind their vote. If you ask a non-representetive sample of any population you will get a biased result. Taking an analogy of a real-world analogy, if you are conducting a survey of people who happen to be in a shopping centre one afternoon and asking their opinion on whether Tony Blair is a good prime minister or not. For the first couple of hours that you're there you notice that the reults are showing that most people think he has been a good PM. Because you came here with an agenda to show that Tony Blair is not good at his job this worries you, so in order to make sure you aren't proved wrong you phone up a load of people who you know went on the anti-war march and who you know voted for the Liberal Democrats in the last election, and ask them to come to the shopping centre and take part in your survey, some of Mr Blair's supportser might here about it from their friends, but by the end of the day the results are going the way you want them to, and so you call it a day and publisbh the results you got that show that Tony Blair is widely viewed as a cheating-lying-bastard. Don't you think that the Labour party would have a very justified complaint that the vote wasn't fair? Inviting only those people who will vote the way you want (plus any that accidentally overhear or wander past) to take part will not produce a valid consensus of the population supposedly represented. Thryduulf 00:02, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- There was no question of "vote packing" on the previous vote. Copyright was an issue in that vote, true, but it was not the main issue. If there were people who voted delete because of the copyright question who would have voted keep otherwise, it wouldn't have changed the fact that there was an overwhelming consensus to delete the image. Those favoring retention of the image set the bar at 80% to delete it (as opposed to 66% on VFD), and it is possible that that threshold might have not been achieved except for the copyright issue. But there was still a significant consensus, and soon after it was expressed, someone saw fit to post a similar image, essentially thumbing his nose at the consensus. In that situation, I can't see a thing wrong with Achilles seeking to alert the people who voted the first time that their intent had not been fulfilled. I am amazed and dismayed that deleting pornographic "shock" images is even controversial on Wikipedia. Jimbo has made it clear that he trusts the consensus to do the right thing with these images, and the last vote showed his trust was not misplaced. However, there seems to be a determined minority, including administrators, who are so set on making Wikipedia a beacon of their concept of freedom of speech that they will defend, even advocate, the posting of pornography in an encyclopedia intended for general usage. --BM 00:25, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- There was no question of "vote packing" on the previous vote. This is false. Anthere pointed out that an unspecified number of users of the French Wikipedia had answered a call to visit the English Wikipedia solely to vote to delete the image, which was at that time being used as spam. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 10:50, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I have several objections here
- What is wrong with making wikipedia a "beacon of free speech"? Why don't you want that?
- The image is not pornographic in the context of an encyclopædia arcile about autofellatio. In a different context it could be, but then in a different context Image:Red-thigh-high-boots-dubidub.jpg could be pornographic and nobody is objecting to the inclusion of that image.
- This encylopædia is for general use, but what is wrong with images in context? The article about pornography is encyclopædic, and I would much rather have in-context images of a pornographic nature than images of a fatal car crash for example. However this issue is not relevant to this image because it isn't pornographic.
- Thryduulf 08:34, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The key word here is "context". As currently implemented, all images in Wikipedia can be viewed, linked to, and added to articles freely, even when the constitute shock sites without their context. Susvolans (pigs can fly) 12:01, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- by that logic we should delete Image:Rowanwilliams01.jpg because someone could place it on the Pope John Paul II article (where it would be out of context and potentially offensive), we should also delete Image:Pjp2c.jpg becuase someone could be offended by it on the Atheism article. The Image:Mass Grave Bergen Belsen May 1945.jpg becuase it would be very offensive if a vandal inserted it on the Anorexia nervosa article. Equally the Image:Cytisusscoparius1web.jpg (from the Broom (shrub) article) image absolutely must go as it would hugely offensive on the George W. Bush article. Thryduulf 15:47, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I remember a great number of people who at least included copyright consideærations as part of their votes. Some also commented on the poor quality of the image as well as the vandalism that it was being used in. In fact, I think it was a minority who resorted to the "no porno" argument. For the second image, there are no copyright issues, the image is of decidedly good quality (even if you're personally disgusted by it), it does a better job of depicting the subject (I believe one anon crudely said the first image should be called "auto-facial" because the shaft wasn't really in the mouth), and the vandalism with which it was used has now been fixed in the wiki software. (The vandalism entailed bombing user_talk pages by placing double-redirects like fr:en:Autofellatio.jpg, and affected other wikis by placing single redirects to Autofellatio.jpg. Those redirects are now disabled – see, for example, my sandbox User:Limeheadnyc/Sandbox.) One can only say that this vote is the same out of ignorance or denial. TIMBO (T A L K) 00:46, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC) — Plus the overwhelming difference in votes (at least pre-spamming, but even overall) lends credence to my claim. TIMBO (T A L K) 00:56, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- There was no question of "vote packing" on the previous vote. Copyright was an issue in that vote, true, but it was not the main issue. If there were people who voted delete because of the copyright question who would have voted keep otherwise, it wouldn't have changed the fact that there was an overwhelming consensus to delete the image. Those favoring retention of the image set the bar at 80% to delete it (as opposed to 66% on VFD), and it is possible that that threshold might have not been achieved except for the copyright issue. But there was still a significant consensus, and soon after it was expressed, someone saw fit to post a similar image, essentially thumbing his nose at the consensus. In that situation, I can't see a thing wrong with Achilles seeking to alert the people who voted the first time that their intent had not been fulfilled. I am amazed and dismayed that deleting pornographic "shock" images is even controversial on Wikipedia. Jimbo has made it clear that he trusts the consensus to do the right thing with these images, and the last vote showed his trust was not misplaced. However, there seems to be a determined minority, including administrators, who are so set on making Wikipedia a beacon of their concept of freedom of speech that they will defend, even advocate, the posting of pornography in an encyclopedia intended for general usage. --BM 00:25, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- ok, assuming we are in the clear copyright-wise, a new vote seems to be in order, since a number of delete votes were clearly based on the image being a copyvio alone. So it seems the re-upload may be considered "within rights". We will be mercifully silent on whether the upload was also within "decency". Nobody answered whether it would be within rights and decency for me to upload "autofellatio" numbers 3 through to 23, and / or "double penetration" numbers 1 through to 25, as well as "scatophilia" numbers 1 through to 12, all depicting preciously rare sex acts. The annoyance everyone is exposed to over this makes very clear that such images do not "make a better encyclopedia". People in the keep camp seem to honestly and sincerely devoted to making Wikipedia a better porn host, and in the spirit of npov and cultural relativism I am not passing judgement on that cause. dab (ᛏ) 09:19, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Nobody answered whether it would be within rights and decency for me to upload "autofellatio" numbers 3 through to 23, and / or "double penetration" numbers 1 through to 25, as well as "scatophilia" numbers 1 through to 12, all depicting preciously rare sex acts. Yes, it is my opinion that undoubtedly it would be, provided none of the pictures are illegal in the state of Florida. Indeed it seems to me that as long as campaigner keep stacking the votes, vandalizing the pictures, summarily deleting them, and lying about their copyright status, it would be advisable in the interests of the continued health and independence of Wikipedia to demonstrate that they cannot get away with such behavior. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 10:40, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Don't forget hypnotizing Jimbo so that he writes that they are "completely unacceptable" on Wikipedia. How low-handed can you get? --BM 10:48, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Keep your slimy innuendoes to yourself.Jimbo is entitled to his opinion, but has made it plain that he expects Wikipedians as a whole (and I don't think he meant the kind of packed voting practises we've seen here) to make up our minds. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 10:51, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)- "Slimy innuendoes" is coming awfully close to a personal attack, Tony. I think that is unwarranted. --BM 11:25, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I must admit that I didn't understand your previous comment, BM, so it may have been open to some slimy interpretation, although I can't conceive of any... Anyway, I hope we can vote this thing down in order to have a precedent to speedy porn uploads in the future. But if we can't I'll leave it to somebody else to "campaign" about, this time. dab (ᛏ) 11:39, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- My point was that to the list of offenses of which Tony says the "anti-image" crowd are guilty (vote packing, summarily deleting them, lying about copyright), one should add the fact they they have hypnotized Jimbo into saying that the images are "completely unacceptable". This was sarcasm. It wasn't innuendo, and there wasn't anything slimy about it. --BM 12:08, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- BM, you appeared to be insinuating that anyone who disagreed with you must be barking mad. If it was sarcasm, it was exceedingly poorly judged, for I doubt very much whether anyone else understood what you meant. I take back my description of your statement as "slimy innuendoes". You have made some exceedingly personal attacks in the past.
- I must admit that I didn't understand your previous comment, BM, so it may have been open to some slimy interpretation, although I can't conceive of any... Anyway, I hope we can vote this thing down in order to have a precedent to speedy porn uploads in the future. But if we can't I'll leave it to somebody else to "campaign" about, this time. dab (ᛏ) 11:39, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- dab, I do hope you're not serious about making images speediable on the basis that they're judged to be "porn". I don't think you could even get close to making porn a criterion for deletion, let alone deletable on sight. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 17:52, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- And again, I have to say I do not have a problem with "anti-image" people, but with some extremists who have engaged in the activities that I enumerated. This is apparently a very emotive subject for some, but it does not merit the corrupt, no-holds-barred methods adopted by some individuals opposed to Wikipedia having images of autofellatio. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 17:56, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I don't recall any "exceedingly personal attacks" that I've made in the past. But I stand ready to be educated. Please post me a note on my Talk page concerning the "exceedingly" personal attacks, and perhaps I will learn something -- at least what is considered by an admin (whom I voted for by the way) to be a personal attack. That is a blockable offense by the way, as you know, so I would natually want to avoid them. If after you've studied my edit history, you don't find any exceedingly personal attacks, after all, perhaps you will withdraw that comment. --BM 18:00, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
How could a couple of IfD votes establish a "precedent" for speedy deletion? That seems naive, at least. If you're going to change CSD criteria, I should think you'd at least have to develop a policy page and have broad support. "Porn" isn't even an IfD criterion (which is understandable -- User:198 called the autofellatio drawing porn, and was so upset that he couldn't have it deleted that he left wikipedia.) TIMBO (T A L K) 21:06, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Demi did some counter-packing as a response, but did not manage to send as many keep messages as there had been fewer keep votes originally. It would have been better to have one short message to everyone from the previous vote, but informing people of a similar vote to a recent 100+ poll seems totally reasonable. --Audiovideo 01:39, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
A note on recent reactions to my activities
I seem to be the object of discussion here, though I was not immediately aware that it was occurring. This dialog on the matter is something that I have just extracted from my own talk page.
I have made no effort to disguise my opinions on this matter, on the posting of what I consider images that are detrimental to the overall value of this project, nor to hide my actions in contacting others. So far as I am aware, prior to my efforts at notifying others whose votes and opinions upon such matters were almost immediately dismissed, disregarded, and ignored, the only other prominent notice to the voting, outside of the vote page itself was on the Talk page of the Autofellatio article, and about the image that had immediately been posted once the previous one had overwhelmingly been voted to be deleted, it read:
- More image deletion
- The new image, Image:Autofellatio_2.jpg, which is copyright-issue-free and much better in quality and depiction of the subject (IMHO) has also been listed for deletion. Heads up. TIMBO (T A L K) 01:39, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Other than those who already have the article on their watch list, or who are otherwise drawn with some interest to an article on the self-entertainment of Autofellatio who exactly was this targeted at? It immediately produced most of the great number of Keep votes which occurred, and (so far as I am aware) it remained the only prominent notice of the issue for nearly a week.
I think it somewhat disingenuous of a few people to seek to censure me for expressing my honest opinions, when I have made no effort to insult them for expressing theirs, no matter how much we might disagree on any matters, nor for what reasons. I might occasionally descend into a sarcastic or derisive expression about certain opinions, or the apparent logic or lack of it involved in them, but I fully do respect the right of anyone and everyone to have their own opinions on things, and to disagree with me as much as their own levels of reasoning impels them to do. ~ Achilles † 17:22, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Achilles, you know full well that there only two problems that I have with your activities:
- Your use of spamming to further your campaign
- Your decision to contact *only* people you thought would agree with you.
Had you genuinely wanted to publicise the IfD further, you would have done the obvious thing: write a note on the Village Pump. I think it's obvious that you didn't do that because you are determined, not to have an honest decision on whether we have a consensus to delete a certain picture, but to sabotage the poll by packing it with people who you were sure would be in favor of deletion.
Just to show you that I'm not all hot air, I'll draw your attention to the fact that, in the original poll on whether to inline or link the picture, it was I who publicised that poll on the Village pump. I am certain that an honest poll will always be against deletion of this picture, but if I were not I would still not try to sabotage a poll as you have so blatantly and shamelessly done. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 17:27, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Though I fully expected to encounter some exceptions I confess that I did make an effort to contact people I thought would be inclined to agree with me on the matter, because it was so obvious an effort to circumvent the decisions that had already just occurred, and I am sure most of them might have thought settled the matter, for at least a little while. I have no apologies to make for an honest effort at notifying most of these people that their votes and opinions had effectively been disregarded. To characterize the mass-messaging that I engaged in to contact them as "spamming" is your right, but as I noted previously: I was not "selling" anything to anyone, and the only thing that I was "advertising" was the fact that something had occurred which I considered an act of injustice and insolent disregard of their views. BOTH Justice and Liberty are proper concerns of every ethically responsible person, and those who seek mere freedom for themselves without regard to justice and the proper freedoms of others, make a mockery of all that is fair and noble within the capacities of every human being. ~ Achilles † 17:49, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I truly do not seek to cause needless discord between any individuals, or any factions that might exist, but on some issues I do seek to elucidate some matters that I feel have not been given proper consideration. ~ Achilles † 18:26, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Because you're so fond of using the word, Achilles, I'll employ it in a particularly apt situation: your above comments reek of steaming bullshit. You were "spamming" by selling your case to 57 user_talk pages (maybe more?). I believe Arbcom has come down on this issue before with User:IZAK, who had a similar taste for spamming all over the place. Your justification is laughable: I suppose because one image was deleted, and you wanted it deleted because of one particular reason, then everyone must agree with you. What gall, then, must Christiaan have had to go to the trouble to secure a better photo with permission and upload it! Even more, all of us keep voters must be proving a point! And all of those users you contacted who voted keep? My, they must be off their rockers (or perhaps we infected them with some sort of homosexual-porn-fiend virus in preparation for the Autofellatio_2.jpg upload).
What a good call – notifying those logical voters (for the keep voters certainly don't understand logic) in order for sanity to prevail. Your intervention was obviously needed, since the vote wasn't going your way (meaning the right way). I won't even get into your reasoning and the many aspects of the Autofellatio_2.jpg debate you omit. I've said them ad nauseum, and if you don't recognize that, you're either not capable or not willing.
I conclude my rant with a question: what would have been better (ethically, procedurally, practically, etc.), spamming 57 sympathetic talk pages with your pleas to delete one image, or actually establishing at Talk:Autofellatio that there is consensus to have no images (not even linked). If there were that consensus (which there is not), image deletion would be an afterthought – orphaned images get deleted all the time, and there's nothing any of us insane keep voters could say. TIMBO (T A L K) 22:20, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
216.45.221.155
Could someone check to see whether 216.45.221.155 (talk · contributions) is in fact a blocked user? He's causing problems at William Luther Pierce, Pantheism, and Cosmotheism (classical) (and their talk pages). He's pasting whole articles to Talk pages, reverting a change of Cosmotheism (classical) to a redirect page (as agreed by other editors on the Talk page), and generally PoV pushing on a grand scale. If he isn't a blocked user, what should be my next step? Most of the avenues seem really only to work properly when the problem is a registered user, or for problems on a single article. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 20:48, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Ah, it's been suggested that he's User:Paul Vogel; could that be the case? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 20:52, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- That's definitely Vogel, who is on the verge of extending his ban by one complete year. Go ahead and block him. —Charles P. (Mirv) 20:54, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- OK — how long for? (He's just recreated Pan-atheism, which is {{pending deletion}} after a VfD). I've blocked it for 24 hours until I know what I should do. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:01, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I protected the "to be deleted" version. Someone can unprotect it when Vogel's been away for a while. Keep in mind that as a banned user, his work is revert on sight - David Gerard 00:08, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The last time that that IP address was blocked (for the same reason) it was for a month, so I've followed precedent. I hope that that's OK. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:40, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I've just discovered that my one-month block has been lifted; he immediately made the same vandalising attack on William Luther Pierce, Pantheism, Cosmotheism, etc.. I've replaced the block; how can I find out who lifted it, and why? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:23, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks. How irritating; I'll have to watch that in future. Vogel was clearly on to it like a flash. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:11, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Xed apparently contacted several admins and asked that they remove his User and Talk pages. I have reverted those deletions, because, as is clear from the Block log, Xed keeps attempting to return to editing. It appears to me, at least, that his requests to have his pages deleted were attempts at deleting his existence so that he could then return to Wikipedia. If he refrains from attempting to edit, so that his name doesn't show up in the Block log every day, then his pages should be deleted. It seems to me that, no matter what day it is or what time of the day it is, both Xed and Gzornenplatz's names are at the very top of the Block log, because they have once again attempted to evade their bans and tried to edit. RickK 23:04, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- You know, if either of them really wanted to edit, creating a new account or just logging out would take seconds. Other reasons for continuing use of a blocked account are possible: I suspect the difficulty of rebuilding a large watchlist is one of them, but that's just a guess. —Charles P. (Mirv) 23:10, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Am I looking in the wrong place? I see only two instances of his name showing up in the Block log, both yesterday, both autoblocked by Snowspinner. I'm looking at Special:Ipblocklist. — mark ✎ 23:31, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Is Xed trying to edit or is he just reading pages? The autoblock used to block people if their IP addresses even looked at a page and I don't know whether that bug was fixed. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:42, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- SV: Xed emailed me that he is just reading pages. — mark ✎ 23:51, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Why is his ID being blocked when he attempts to read only? I don't belive that for a minute. He would not be showing up in the Block log if all he was doing was reading. And Block log entries for IDs of previously blocked named Users disappear after 24 hours, that's why he only shows up twice. RickK 23:56, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- Maybe he's asked for his user page to be deleted because he thinks that will stop the bug from auto-blocking him. Whatever his reason, he doesn't seem to be doing anything wrong, so he's probably within his rights to ask that the pages be deleted. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:01, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
- Contrary to RickK, I believe that he is only reading. In any case, I don't see any reason to revert to pre-block version. If Xed expresses the wish for his pages to be blanked, that wish should be granted. I for one don't like deleting the pages because red links are distressing (and his name appears in a few places) — but I'm blanking the page right now. — mark ✎ 00:10, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Blanking's one thing, but please don't actually delete it for now - David Gerard 08:57, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't see anything wrong with attempting to edit, anyway. When I've been blocked (for which RickK has been the culprit more than once), I've always attempted to edit while blocked, to see if perhaps some kind soul had unblocked me. A block should not be treated as if the person has been damned to hell for all eternity. Everyking 05:43, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Xed is subject of an Arbcom ban. I think we should keep his talk page as a historical record, so non-admins can read back discussions with him. Why does he want to have them deleted anyway? Are there valid reasons? Mgm|(talk) 08:37, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
- I agree with RickK (and others); Xed's user and user talk pages should not be deleted, but preserved as a matter of record.
- James F. (talk) 11:58, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- He's contacted me, too. Look, he's being decent about respecting the ban / block. Why not "unblock" his account, giving him a "parole" on the condition that he refrain from editing any pages but his own user page and user talk page, and the usual clutter of RFA, RFC stuff regarding his case? (I'm going to go ahead and unblock his account, but if he mistakenly interprets this as a unilateral pardon I'll re-block him. Okay?) -- Uncle Ed (talk) 16:22, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
- I object strenuously to this. Xed is banned. Xed's ban did not come without warning. Xed could have tidied up when the measure was proposed, or when it passed, or when the motion to close came. Snowspinner 17:39, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
- As far as I know, Xed was banned basically just because you decided to go after him. Isn't it just great to see an attempt at a reasonable solution aborted because one other user holds a grudge? Everyking 00:29, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- No, he was banned for making a personal attack about one edit in five, because he was convinced anyone who disagreed with him was evil and to be treated with bad faith. He is not an example to emulate - David Gerard 00:46, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Would Xed agree with this description of his actions and views? And I'm not emulating him, I only make personal attacks once every six or seven edits. Everyking 01:18, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Probably the absolutely key point here is that whether Xed agrees or not is immaterial - David Gerard 01:32, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- It's pretty important, because then you have two different views that contradict. Personally, going by my own experience, I think I'd be much more inclined to trust Xed over the ArbCom. Everyking 01:44, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Whether you trust the arbitration committee or not is immaterial. If you feel you have the right to unblock an arbcomm-banned User, or do anything else in contravention to an arbcomm ruling, then it might be time to get another arbcomm ruling on you, and get your sysophood removed. If you're just saying that you disagree with the arbcomm ruling, then again, it's immaterial. RickK 06:53, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)
- Unlike you, Rick, I am cautious in my use of admin powers and careful not to use them for anything but the most uncontroversial purposes. Everyking 07:05, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- User:RickK/Jimbo's statement. RickK 07:30, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)
- I'm aware. The point is, you talk about me needing to be desysoped, but I've done next to nothing controversial with my admin powers in the year that I've had them. You, on the other hand, do controversial things on a nearly daily basis. No, I don't generally agree with ArbCom decisions because I reject punitive logic. But I'm pragmatic enough to know where the power is, and that I have none. Everyking 07:35, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- User:RickK/Jimbo's statement. RickK 07:30, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)
- Unlike you, Rick, I am cautious in my use of admin powers and careful not to use them for anything but the most uncontroversial purposes. Everyking 07:05, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Whether you trust the arbitration committee or not is immaterial. If you feel you have the right to unblock an arbcomm-banned User, or do anything else in contravention to an arbcomm ruling, then it might be time to get another arbcomm ruling on you, and get your sysophood removed. If you're just saying that you disagree with the arbcomm ruling, then again, it's immaterial. RickK 06:53, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)
- It's pretty important, because then you have two different views that contradict. Personally, going by my own experience, I think I'd be much more inclined to trust Xed over the ArbCom. Everyking 01:44, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Probably the absolutely key point here is that whether Xed agrees or not is immaterial - David Gerard 01:32, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Would Xed agree with this description of his actions and views? And I'm not emulating him, I only make personal attacks once every six or seven edits. Everyking 01:18, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I may be remembering wrong, but I think the arbcom had something to do with it too. Snowspinner 00:44, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)
- No, he was banned for making a personal attack about one edit in five, because he was convinced anyone who disagreed with him was evil and to be treated with bad faith. He is not an example to emulate - David Gerard 00:46, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- As far as I know, Xed was banned basically just because you decided to go after him. Isn't it just great to see an attempt at a reasonable solution aborted because one other user holds a grudge? Everyking 00:29, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I've reblocked for the remainder of the ban period. There's no reason to unblock. If there are still issues about how Xed's user pages are to be handled, I support the current status of having them blanked. --Michael Snow 20:02, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I object strenuously to this. Xed is banned. Xed's ban did not come without warning. Xed could have tidied up when the measure was proposed, or when it passed, or when the motion to close came. Snowspinner 17:39, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
Netoholic reverted Wikipedia:How to make complex illustrations using FreeHand and Photoshop [3] at 1:58 UTC, 8 April, in violation of an injuction from the ArbCom [4].
The injuction states: For the duration of this case, Netoholic is not to revert edits in the Wikipedia: page space. He should discuss proposed changes on talk pages instead. If he makes an edit any administrator judges to be a reversion in the Wikipedia: page space, he may be blocked for up to 24 hours.
Netoholic has been blocked for 24 hours from 3:28 UTC, 8 April. BLANKFAZE | (что??) 03:34, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- /sigh. Netoholic listed this as an attempt by Neutrality to provoke him. I guess it worked. :( Snowspinner 03:45, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
- Injunctions exist to keep the peace in cases involving those apparently unable to control themselves without them. I'm afraid this appears to be the case here - David Gerard 09:06, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My edit was not a revert by any commonly applied definition. Neutrality removed the Template:Move to Wikibooks with no explanation, or edit summary. I placed a signed comment on the top of the page pointing out a discussion on the talk page about the requested move -- I did not undo Neutrality's edit. Noone would ever reasonably use my edit to justify a 3RR block, and such blocks would be quickly undone by people with a more practical standard of what a revert is.
This injunction is not a ban. Do not suddenly pretend that normal standards can be made more flexibly interpreted. Use common sense judgement. I now fear that people are going to block me for reverting vandalism, reverting myself, rephrasing a section of a page, etc. by using looser standards than normal. -- Netoholic @ 10:29, 2005 Apr 8 (UTC)
- I must point out that an injunction is not normal standards, that it was phrased as a tight leash and that it was quickly voted for as a tight leash. Probably a more productive approach that would reflect well upon your conduct would be to show that you can keep to it flawlessly (which would be strongly to your credit), rather than showing that you cannot (which would be strongly to your discredit) - surely that's the obvious sensible response - David Gerard 12:46, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC) (whilst logged in on User:Arkady Rose's machine, my apologies!)
- Just confirming I wrote the above - David Gerard 22:01, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The injunction banned Netoholic from reverting in the Wikipedia namespace. It seems in this case he called attention to Neutrality's removal of a template in an unsual way, apparently in order precisely to avoid doing a revert, completely in compliance with the injunction. It got called a "revert" anyway, and he still got blocked. If the meaning of "revert" can be stretched to cover this edit, then almost any edit can be interpreted as a revert, and Netoholic might as well interpret the Arb Comm injuction as giving any administrator the right to block him if he edits in the Wikipedia namespace at all. Is that what the Arb Comm intended? --BM 13:29, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I've interpreted it to amount to that before, yes. On the other hand, according to the Harmonious editing club, it should be possible.
- Hmmm, no wait! They do allow reverting exactly one time. Interesting! ...but I digress.
- While the HEC is voluntary, perhaps in future we could borrow the HEC editing rules for our concept of revert parole. I believe that would be kinder, and (because the HEC rules are quite likely designed to be realistic&usable) it'd be more likely to achieve the desired result. Kim Bruning 14:37, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Had I been asked to, I would have voluntarily adhered to the HEC/one-revert guideline while my ArbCom case was pending, as an act to show my good faith. This "zero-revert" injunction is unprecedented and is practically a ban, since I can make no mistake and every edit (even this very one) needs to be perfect so as not to trigger some gung-ho reaction. I can't even self-revert. I fear making any change lest someone dig up a similar edit from months ago and slam down the ban-hammer. If I make a change to something, it must be extraordinarily different from anything else. I hope at least the ArbCom takes this lesson away and doesn't bother with this again. A full namespace ban is at least cut-and-dry, and one-revert restrictions avoid problems with admins being "loose" with their interpretations. -- Netoholic @ 15:00, 2005 Apr 8 (UTC)
- As I said above, I think, practically speaking, that you are banned from more editing in the Wikipedia namespace than it might first appear. Almost any edit that touches existing text can apparently be labelled a revert by some admin who might object to it. Even completely new text better not look too much like something that was previously deleted. In this case, replacing a template with a comment that there used to be a template there, and suggesting that the matter should be discussed on the Talk page, is a "revert" of the template removal in some administrators' books. --BM 16:13, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- This is where administrator discretion comes in, and common sense. Nobody is going to ban anybody for four edits in a row tinkering with older text. Nobody would even ban Netoholic for four edits in a row that tinker with older text. And if they did, I would remove the block as soon as I saw it. But that's not what happened here. Netoholic got reverted and found a way to insert the same content in different wording. Blankfaze saw through the stealth revert and blocked. Snowspinner 17:03, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
- Can we get real here? I didn't need to post that comment on the page if I wanted to "insert the same content". I could have, and did, just move the template to the Talk page. I can't remotely believe people think my edit was a "revert", and it was fully in the spirit of the injunction.... i.e. make better use of the Talk page. -- Netoholic @ 17:09, 2005 Apr 8 (UTC)
I'm not an admin, so maybe what I say doesn't matter, but User:Netoholic is clearly getting the shaft here. Sometimes the partisanship and politics of Wikipedia makes me sick. Kevin Rector 19:38, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
- I basically agree with your latter sentence. On the one hand, I do think that there's a plausible case to be made that this belongs in e.g. Wikibooks. Mind, I'm not saying I think I've concluded that it's more appropriate there than in Wikipedia:, it might well be better suited where it is. However, I don't think it's a slam-dunk that it ought to stay where it is. So I think for Neutrality to simply remove the template was out of line - it was a good-faith addition to the page. How he found his was there is an interesting question - I assume it was after it was listed in Netoholic's RfAr. It seems the Neutrality's following Netoholic around - which is bordering on (yet another) unhealthy Wiki-obsession. At the very least, getting in a revert war with someone
whose arbitration case he is about to have to rule ondisplays very poor judgement indeed. On the other hand, Netoholic's sly reference to the template in his second edit really was (basically) an attempt to undo the substance of Neutrality's revert, while staying within some literalistic interpretation of his injunction. Everyone involved in this shabby affair ought to take a Wikibreak. Noel (talk) 20:35, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Actually, Neutrality is a party to the case and has recused himself as an arbitrator, so he's not going to be ruling on anything affecting Netoholic. That being said, I agree that we are way past the point at which it could be said that any of the parties are covering themselves with glory in this affair. --Michael Snow 21:11, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Yeah, I suddenly thought of that possibility about 1 minute after I posted that - but at that point I was already out the door on the way to pick up my kids from school. Sigh.... 21:22, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Yeah, the 50,000 foot view, without trying to figure out all the rights and wrongs of this case is that it is fundamentally a petty, obsessive, ongoing feud between Netoholic, on the one hand, and primarily Neutrality and Snowpinner on the other, and that they are all guilty of much the same transgressions against civility and Wikipedia policy. Unfortunately for Netoholic, Snowspinner is an admin, and Neutrality was elected as an arbitrator. Fairness demands that all of them should be rebuked and disciplined, but that probably is not going to happen. --BM 21:54, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- To try to reduce this to a Netoholic vs. Neutrality & Snowspinner feud is disingenuous. Just a quick look at Netoholic's RFA (vote:3/28/7) will show that just about everybody who has had dealings with Netoholic has had a negative experience with him. How many Wikipedia editors have been listed as reasons that someone has left the Wikipedia (e.g. User:Mintguy) or as a reason for Wikivacations besides Netoholic? Raul654 apparently tried to work with Netoholic and was burned by him (See Raul654's RFM). The only person who seems to have ever come to an accomodation or understanding of Netoholic has been Ta bu shi da yu (and unfortunately for Netoholic, Ta bu shi da yu "has left the building"). Kim Bruning now seems to be trying to work with Netoholic, but that effort is probably too little and too late to help Netoholic, so he is probably destined to be severely sanctioned by the ArbComm. With that said, I will agree that it looks like Neutrality has also not been on his best behaviour either. AsylumInmate 06:33, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Only one person "seems to have ever come to an accomodation or understanding of Netoholic"? You're trippin'. Did you mean to say that, in those words? I just don't have the time to wade through the voluminous documentation of this feud and take a stand on it, unfortunately, but it seems outrageous to me to speak of a long-term and useful contributor in that way. It's literally untrue: my own experience of Netoholic has been as a helpful and considerate experienced user. He helped me with practical stuff when I was new in June, and a little while back I noticed his gentle touch when reasoning with a particular social-skills-impaired contributor (who I needn't scandalize by mentioning here, especially as he has now left the project), that I for my part found it extremely difficult to keep a wikiloving tone towards. Whatever's been going down in this conflict, I really hate to see somebody's whole good work for wikipedia dismissed like that. Bishonen|Talk 09:25, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- To try to reduce this to a Netoholic vs. Neutrality & Snowspinner feud is disingenuous. Just a quick look at Netoholic's RFA (vote:3/28/7) will show that just about everybody who has had dealings with Netoholic has had a negative experience with him. How many Wikipedia editors have been listed as reasons that someone has left the Wikipedia (e.g. User:Mintguy) or as a reason for Wikivacations besides Netoholic? Raul654 apparently tried to work with Netoholic and was burned by him (See Raul654's RFM). The only person who seems to have ever come to an accomodation or understanding of Netoholic has been Ta bu shi da yu (and unfortunately for Netoholic, Ta bu shi da yu "has left the building"). Kim Bruning now seems to be trying to work with Netoholic, but that effort is probably too little and too late to help Netoholic, so he is probably destined to be severely sanctioned by the ArbComm. With that said, I will agree that it looks like Neutrality has also not been on his best behaviour either. AsylumInmate 06:33, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Neutrality's being an arbitrator has nothing to do with this, as he's off the case. And if Neutrality or I have in any way abused our administrator privledges in harassing Netoholic, I encourage you to submit it as evidence. The fact that we are administrators does not mean that we are "harassing" whenever we get into content disputes. Snowspinner 22:02, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
- See, it's all this talk about Evidence and arbitration that I find so distressing. What I'd love to see is if we could stop the legaleze and if everyone involved would just step back, take a big deep breath, and just let it go and then maybe go edit an encyclopedia article or something. Kevin Rector 22:15, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
User:203.103.60.119
User:203.103.60.119 made a series of edits today, including blanking User:Dr Zen and User talk:Dr Zen twice (second one with edit summaries of "Please respect my wishes. Zen"); both times he was reverted. I left a message on his talk page asking if he was Dr Zen; he responded on mine that he was. He was then blocked for vandalism. Since he was not warned before being blocked, and the blanking appears to be the only vandalism, I am going to unblock him. If I am wrong and anyone wishes to reblock, I will not unblock again. Let me know if I have this wrong acted inappropriately. Thanks. — Knowledge Seeker দ 04:51, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC) (updated — Knowledge Seeker দ 05:04, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC))
- Well, if Zen wants his pages blanked, why would anyone object? Everyking 05:38, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- No reason to object, if it's really Zen, instead of some random anon claiming to be. Would it be so hard to log in first? —Korath (Talk) 06:38, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
- I agree; I asked him to log in and make his changes, but he had already been blocked by that point. Actually, that brings up something I'd been wondering: suppose an anonymous user is blocked—can he or she then register or log in and edit? I didn't think so, which is one of the reasons I unblocked. — Knowledge Seeker দ 06:46, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- No reason to object, if it's really Zen, instead of some random anon claiming to be. Would it be so hard to log in first? —Korath (Talk) 06:38, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
- Well, for what it's worth, I don't think it's Dr. Zen. If he was he'd have logged in before he was even blocked to make the changes. I think the anon is attempting impersonation. Can we email Zen directly from his user page? Is he a mailing list contributor? Mgm|(talk) 08:46, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
- It would appear that he can be emailed from his user page. I don't know if he is a mailing list contributor or not (I'm not so I don't know how to find out). Thryduulf 09:14, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- That IP address is registered to the same area as a previous IP address known to have been used by Dr Zen, so I'd guess it's him. SlimVirgin (talk) 09:20, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
- It would appear that he can be emailed from his user page. I don't know if he is a mailing list contributor or not (I'm not so I don't know how to find out). Thryduulf 09:14, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I don't like guessing, it could also be a "friend" trying to nuke his online credibility. We need permanent proof before acting on the request. Mgm|(talk) 10:41, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
Cumbey or 68.61.150.80
68.61.150.80 (talk · contribs), which is the IP address for Cumbey (talk · contribs) vandalised Haile Selassie of Ethiopia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) here, which included linkin my user page. I am not sure if this is plain vandalism or what, but cannot accept my name bein maliciously inserted into the text of a wikipedia article, --SqueakBox 14:46, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)
- Such a link is indeed inappropriate in an article (for any reason). Things seem quiet at the article at the moment, though. Noel (talk) 14:44, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
At Pashtun (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), I don't want to violate 3RR, but I'm dealing with an anon who is persistently removing information long agreed upon by consensus and inserting POV material that even includes first-person remarks. I presumably can't block him or protect some state of the article, because I'm involved in the dispute. Would someone else please step in? I know all about the notion of "the wrong version" always getting protection, but in this case I think there is no question that I have been attempting to restore a consensus version, and this person is inserting material that is not even encyclopedic. I request reversion to my version and either protection for the article or some other strategy for dealing with this anon. I frankly don't have the patience (or the time) for dialogue with him right now. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:47, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)
- See also WP:AN/3RR#User:202.52.199.225. Noel (talk) 16:30, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I've welcomed user 202.52.199.225 (talk · contribs). Let's try not to bite this newcomer. I noticed at /3RR that Noel has blocked him; I'm going to unblock because he wasn't warned a single time and was never even pointed at whatever policies we have. — mark ✎ 16:50, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
He's now registered as Haider (talk · contributions), and has made the same edits at Pashtun. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:39, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Can we please have protection on this article? He is continually inserting the same material, against clear consensus. The material is clearly unencyclopedic. At least three different people have now reverted him. His remarks on the talk page are incoherent. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:03, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
Agwiii
Agwiii (talk · contribs) is making legal threats to me Talk:Abortion#FS 784 Cyberstalking Statute and accusing me of cyberstalking for my legitimate work here at wikipedia, as well as posting false allegations at Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress (twice now), --SqueakBox 16:10, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
Typical of those who practice online harassment, Squeakbox (talk · contribs) is now accusing the target of his harassment of his very actions. Agwiii 16:55, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
- Looking at the evidence, it's difficult to see how Agwiii can honestly make the claims he has. His approach has been aggressive, and has occasionally bordered on hysteria. He would do well to consult Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:06, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I fear Agwiii launched his campaign in order to try and stop me from editing articles in which he has had a major input. On the basis of the first edits of his I saw I decided to check his contribs, cleaned them up where I felt necessary, and put a Vfd on Ron Branson, --SqueakBox 17:36, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
Agwiii put a personal attack on my home page which I removed, he then placed it again just now, here --SqueakBox 17:41, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
I begin to wonder if Squeakbox understands the meaning of the words he writes, or of the truth for what I wrote could not be considered a "personal attack" by any rational person. A personal attack would be a statement such as "You are a XXXX." A polite Request that he stop his cyberstalking is not a "personal attack". Agwiii 20:06, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
- Agwiii (talk · contributions) removed the VfD notice from Ron Branson in an edit marked 'minor'. I've replaced it, but he needs to be watched. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:51, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Agwiii, it appears that you removed the VfD notice here. — Knowledge Seeker দ 18:24, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- As I have written elsewhere, if the Vfd was removed by me, it was a mistake. Agwiii 18:11, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
Mel, you continue to ignore the fact that Squeakbox changed my words on a TALK page. That is not acceptable behavior. Agwiii 18:12, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
- You are correct; in general, modifying others' comments is not appropriate. Can you show us where he has done this? — Knowledge Seeker দ 18:24, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- As Knowledge Seeker says, some evidence of any of your claims would be helpful.
- Where on Earth does SqueakBox say that he placed the VfD in retaliation.
- It's a little difficult to see how your removal of the VfD notice ([5]) could have been accidental. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:28, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Simply scroll up a few lines and you'll see the admission. SqueakBox wrote, "I fear Agwiii launched his campaign in order to try and stop me from editing articles in which he has had a major input. On the basis of the first edits of his I saw I decided to check his contribs, cleaned them up where I felt necessary, and put a Vfd on Ron Branson." This is what we see with online stalkers, harassers, etc. They make self-serving statements to try to turn themselves into the victim, when they are the perpetrator. Review the complaints and you'll see that Squeakbox only began complaining after I posted notices about his behavior on the Vandalism board. His posting a Vfd on Branson is transparently a 'tit for tat' action on his part. Wikipedia deserves better! ==> Agwiii 18:39, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
- Mel, if you were being cyberstalked and harassed with almost constant edits and/or reversions to your work, you would understand how it's possible to make a mistake editing. I make no claims of infailbility, and I wrote to you that if I removed the Vfd, it was in error. I'm man enough to admit my mistakes. Again, now that I see it was simply a 'tit for tat' retailation by Squeakbox, I am offended by his action; Wikipedia deserves better. ==> Agwiii 18:47, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
- One more thing, Mel. One of the PREFERENCES options is to mark all edits as MINOR by default. I selected that option. If it's an issue, then perhaps you should remove the ability to default to minor edit. ==> Agwiii 18:47, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
I did not place the Vfd on Ron Branson for retaliation, nor havew I said that I did. I gave a section heading to his comments. I did not to the best of my knowledge remove or change anything Agwiii wrote, but I will check, --SqueakBox 18:33, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
When Agwiii accuses ,me of touching what he wrote i believe he means this, --SqueakBox 18:40, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
Your explanations lack any credibility and you are wrong as usual. When I have the time to deal with your tampering, I will post it in the correct place. You did note one of your violations, but you know quite well that is not the point, or the serious violations. Agwiii 19:48, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
What I especially dislike is what agwiii deletes (his comment) here. get me extradited eh. As we say here, ¿A ver cómo? --SqueakBox 18:44, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
The only reason I Vfd'd Ron Branson was because I thought him not noteworthy, and therefore wanted to see if other users agreed with me or not. I put lots of things on Vfd, but always based on my judgement of the piece. If I had been going tit for tat I would have put all his stuff up for Vfd, but the aother articles were all clearly valid. I am quite simply not cyberstalking Agwiii. I improved all the articles he refers to, removing repetitions, unencyclopedic bits etc, all good wiki work. So I feel I am the one being harrassed, compared to the Khmer Rouge, etc, --SqueakBox 18:57, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
For the man who wrote on his home page that, "My greatest achievements here so far have been elevating Haile Selassie I to the status of Almighty God," you bring an important political perspective to the reform of the American Judicial System. Clearly You know absolutly nothing about the issue. You've admitted you don't live in the United States, so then, what legitmate motive could you have --- and the only answer is none. You know nothing about Branson or J.A.I.L 4 Judges. Your sole reason for the Vfd is harassment. As we say here, "never argue with a fool - they will drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience." Agwiii 20:00, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
Cyberstalking by SqueakBox
SqueakBox (talk · contributions) has a vendetta against anything that I post or edit.
- He follows my work on Wikipedia and dog posts creating intentional distortions of the facts in its bogus claim to be neutral.
- Most recently, it vandalized the J.A.I.L. 4 Judges ® page by turning the registered acronym into the word jail.
- This person is a prolific vandalizer of my work, a dog poster whose only purpose is harassment. These actions constitute the crime of cyberstalking, according to Florida Statutes 784.048(1)(d).
- The behavior of Squeakbox is typical of the online harrassers and cyberstalkers. After a period of antagonizing and threatening, the perpetrator often tries to spin the story around and play the victim.
- Typical of those who practice online harassment, Squeakbox (talk · contributions) is now accusing the target of his harassment of his very actions.
Signed ==> Agwiii 17:01, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
- try WIkipedia:Dispute resolution. Also, without providing diffs, you will get nowhere: people want the evidence presented, don't leave it to us to find evidence of what you accuse people of (but, the collected evidence should go to WP:RfC, not to this page). dab (ᛏ) 19:31, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Please be aware of official Wikipedia policy: Wikipedia:No legal threats. -- Curps 19:36, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Terminated discussion
I am terminating this discussion with you, Squeakbox. Any subsequent messages from you, directed to me, at me, or about me will be considered improper, intentional, wilful cyberstalking and harassment in violation of Wikipedia's rules. Agwiii 19:57, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
- And how is he supposed to solve the dispute you two have if you don't want to talk to him or listen to what he says? Mgm|(talk) 20:30, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
- glad to hear it. All we can tell you here is: If you want to take legal action, do it, but cease from editing Wikipedia while the case is pending. If you do not, don't make void threats and follow dispute resolution like everyone else. Using the "User contributions" feature is not "cyberstalking" by any definition. dab (ᛏ) 20:40, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Always glad to hear from the peanut gallery, however you've come late to the dance and the music stopped long ago, but thanks for your opinion. Agwiii 20:54, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
- I agree with dab and mgm. At this point you need to either leave Wikipedia or stop making legal threats. It's inappropriate for you to continue editing articles while at the same time claiming that squeakbox is breaking the law by attempting to communicate with you. Rhobite 20:45, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
- I think a response to a terminated discussion is a non sequitor. Agwiii 21:02, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)