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::And why would I have suggested an interaction ban myself before Flyer22reborn posted here, if I was the bully. It is very clear the same old gang members or [[Wikipedia:Tag team]] are at it again. I knew this would happen though. That's why I tried to get advice from an actual administrator, Diannaa prior to being set up, baited and then dragged over here. This discussion on my talk page '''is here''' [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Charlotte135&diff=709855189&oldid=709794658] and '''my reply''' to administrator Diannaa is here [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Charlotte135&diff=709998106&oldid=709855189]. My only mistake was to take the old tag team's bait and then be dragged back in so Flyer22reborn could post it here and the rest of the tag team come in on cue, and comment. Flyer22reborn's aggressive ownership of these articles needs to be stopped and Rhoark's solution of a "2-way interaction ban and 3 month topic ban for '''both''' Charlotte135 and Flyer22." But as I said, '''both''' is the only fair solution and Diannaa is the best person to adjudicate, not you Montanabw. [[User:Charlotte135|Charlotte135]] ([[User talk:Charlotte135|talk]]) 07:29, 22 March 2016 (UTC) |
::And why would I have suggested an interaction ban myself before Flyer22reborn posted here, if I was the bully. It is very clear the same old gang members or [[Wikipedia:Tag team]] are at it again. I knew this would happen though. That's why I tried to get advice from an actual administrator, Diannaa prior to being set up, baited and then dragged over here. This discussion on my talk page '''is here''' [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Charlotte135&diff=709855189&oldid=709794658] and '''my reply''' to administrator Diannaa is here [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Charlotte135&diff=709998106&oldid=709855189]. My only mistake was to take the old tag team's bait and then be dragged back in so Flyer22reborn could post it here and the rest of the tag team come in on cue, and comment. Flyer22reborn's aggressive ownership of these articles needs to be stopped and Rhoark's solution of a "2-way interaction ban and 3 month topic ban for '''both''' Charlotte135 and Flyer22." But as I said, '''both''' is the only fair solution and Diannaa is the best person to adjudicate, not you Montanabw. [[User:Charlotte135|Charlotte135]] ([[User talk:Charlotte135|talk]]) 07:29, 22 March 2016 (UTC) |
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:::While some admins adjudicate disputes, I am not one of them. Dispute resolution is not something I am good at. Sorry, — [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]]) 19:01, 22 March 2016 (UTC) |
:::While some admins adjudicate disputes, I am not one of them. Dispute resolution is not something I am good at. Sorry, — [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]]) 19:01, 22 March 2016 (UTC)<br> |
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:::The problem with interaction bans is that they can sometimes increase tension between editors. Some editors become vigilant about enforcing an interaction ban and viewing crossing paths with the other editor as harassment and then we are back at ANI, often on a regular basis as an editor seeks sanctions for violations of an I-ban. Admins want to defuse conflict, not take measures that increase it. |
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:::It would be best if you two would voluntarily keep out of each other's way. These reappearances at ANI are not good for you, Charlotte135 or for Flyer22reborn. I would think since you are adults you could find a way to resolve this dispute without having to have admins imposing topic bans or blocks. You can see, by the fact that no admins have jumped into the discussion that there isn't a strong desire to impose sanctions on either of you. But that can change if you can't [[WP:STICK|drop the stick and walk away]]. <font face="Papyrus" size="3" color="#800080">[[User:Liz|'''''L'''''iz]]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">[[Special:Contributions/Liz|'''''Read!''''']] [[User talk:Liz|'''''Talk!''''']]</font></sup> 21:29, 22 March 2016 (UTC) |
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== "Perun" IP on an OR spree at 37.201.xx.xx == |
== "Perun" IP on an OR spree at 37.201.xx.xx == |
Revision as of 21:29, 22 March 2016
Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents |
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This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.
When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search) |
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March 2016 User:Springee canvassing
User reported: Springee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Notified user: William_M._Connolley at User_talk:William_M._Connolley notifying him of dispute at article Ford Pinto
Since you have had involvement with HughD, you should see how many edits he added to the Ford Pinto article. 200 in the 5 days before it was locked! Seriously, if you are brave you should give it a look.
diff: 21:01 10 March 2016
Spamming; notification of a user "with no significant connection to the topic at hand." Campaigning; non-neutral wording of notice. Vote stacking; active content discussions at article talk. Previous interaction with the targeted editor is not among the listed examples of appropriate reasons for notification to a user talk page at WP:APPNOTE.
Springee recent previous report by Scoobydunk for canvassing 2 December 2015: WP:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive907#User_Springee_Canvassing
Thank you. Hugh (talk) 19:22, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Not canvasing. No suggestion or request to edit the page. I'm simply blow away by HughD's ability to make 255 edits to a page since March 2nd including 3 days when the topic was locked! Springee (talk) 19:29, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
Could we perhaps boomerang this into an assessment of HughD's editing 'style'. His shotgun attacks on the page, posting at a rate of about 1 edit per hour, night and day,for more than a week, plus the same on the talk page, when combined with a complete inability to answer a straight question with a straight answer, and his tendency to assume his arguments are the only ones that matter, make cooperating with him impossible. Greglocock (talk) 18:32, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oshwah, I agree with Greglocock, an editor on the Pinto page, that HughD's behavior on the Ford Pinto article and talk pages has been disruptive. I'm not sure if boomerang would apply to that or not. However, I think that trying to ping Scoobydunk DOES count as canvasing and would be a boomerang. Why would HughD add a ping to Scoobydunk [1] today (Mar 15th) vs 4 days ago? Scoobydunk has no involvement with the Pinto page. The only reason to notify him of this discussion is the hopes that he can sway the group opinion. That is canvasing. Springee (talk) 12:06, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
- Comment I was also notified by Springee about HughD but I agree with Greglocock, the issue is HughD's editing style as well. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:44, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- I would like to clarify, I contacted Ricky81682 requesting suggestions for dealing with HughD's disruptive editing at Ford Pinto and later Chrysler (an on going problem). Springee (talk) 17:19, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Additional canvassing incident
14 March 2016 Springee notified Fyddlestix; as with above previously reported incident of canvassing, this incident exhibits spamming (notification of a user "with no significant connection to the topic at hand"), campaigning (non-neutral wording of notice), and vote stacking (recruitment to content dispute at Ford Pinto). Thank you. Hugh (talk) 17:10, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- HughD, I believe at this point I've asked three or perhaps four editors who are familiar with your disruptive editing behavior for suggestions as to how do deal with it. In no instance did I ask those editors to weigh in on the content of the articles. All cases were attempts to seek help in dealing with your disruptive behavior. Springee (talk) 18:50, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Rude vulgarian editor
Hi, can you please deal with this fellow: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RepRap_project&type=revision&diff=710238548&oldid=710238425
He is also edit warring. CaptainYuge (talk) 20:44, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have notified the editor that this ANI discussion is ongoing, as should be done. RickinBaltimore (talk) 20:46, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- When dealing with this fellow I suggest we give him a barnstar, and lets give a boomerang (smelly) trout to the OP. -Roxy the dog™ woof 20:49, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- He's Vulgarian, I've been to Vulgaria, pleasant country, but go on the off season. RickinBaltimore (talk) 21:06, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- When dealing with this fellow I suggest we give him a barnstar, and lets give a boomerang (smelly) trout to the OP. -Roxy the dog™ woof 20:49, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- I made a typo in that dif. Redacted here since I can't do it there: "remove promotional content sourced to a conference abstract. we would not accept rank bullshit like this added to an article about a drug and we don't accept it here" I'm talking with a few people in the RepRap movement on the article Talk page, as part of my efforts to wrest that article from their abuse of WP as a kind of movement webpage, promoting what they have been doing. The goals of their movement are admirable, and I don't think they have understood that they have been abusing Wikipedia, so I am not registering any complaint here. So far the work and discussions on Talk are going relatively OK.. I am not seeking any intervention, just writing this to provide context to the community. And yes, I should use more gentle language, I know. Sometimes the promotionalism gets to me. That is my bad. Jytdog (talk) 20:54, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- You delete two thirds of an article with edits like these [2] [3], then when you're reverted by another editor and invited to discuss it at Talk: your immediate reaction is to repeat the blanking, warn them for edit warring, and now talk about boomerangs here. Just who is doing the edit warring, I wonder? Andy Dingley (talk) 21:10, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Someone may wish to review this user's history. He's got a long trail of bodies and accusations of edit warring (whilst edit warring himself) and of using COI accusations as a cudgel to batter his opponents. Note the talk page for the article in question -- he's already asserting to me a "higher level" of sourcing and notability is required for inclusion in the article, which at a glance reads far and above what is used for general notability and RS standards. Who is he to assign his own personal values above the project? I appear to have fallen in the path of a strongly agenda driven combat editor. CaptainYuge (talk) 21:15, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Actually, no. It's really clear who the edit warrior is here. [4] You've been at this for months. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:18, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- You delete two thirds of an article with edits like these [2] [3], then when you're reverted by another editor and invited to discuss it at Talk: your immediate reaction is to repeat the blanking, warn them for edit warring, and now talk about boomerangs here. Just who is doing the edit warring, I wonder? Andy Dingley (talk) 21:10, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- I've temporarily semi-protected the article. This should not be construed as an endorsement of the current version or any that might be in the history. I trust all parties involved to use the WP:BRD process. --Kinu t/c 21:29, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Edit warrning/warring
Please cite this user: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RepRap_project&type=revision&diff=710248489&oldid=710245750 He keeps RVing my sourced changes with NO discussion of the merits of the edits. He is wholesale undoing over a dozen edits. CaptainYuge (talk) 21:19, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Attempts to out editors
As Andy Digley mentioned this combat editor has been warring on this article for *months* and has been abusing COI policies to attempt to coerce new editors to out themselves from anonymity. CaptainYuge (talk) 21:20, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Andy Dingley: did you really say that Jytdog tries to coerce new editors? Don't see that in this discussion... that from a past discussion? EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:57, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Months of edit warring, ongoing
He's still not stopping -- this user is unrepentant and should be blocked temporarily to curb his hostile behavior: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RepRap_project&type=revision&diff=710249014&oldid=710248489 CaptainYuge (talk) 21:25, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Not to mention grave threats of harm. Or not. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:34, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Now edit warring on the talk page
Now he's removing sections from the talk page. CaptainYuge (talk) 21:36, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Ongoing edit warring on talk page
Can someone please stop this guy? He's out of control. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:RepRap_project&action=history CaptainYuge (talk) 21:42, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Actually, that removal was perfectly acceptable, however I would have preferred that Jytdog not remove it himself per your reaction to when he does anything. That removal is due to WP:TPG where it is stated to
Comment on content, not on the contributor: Keep the discussions focused upon the topic of the talk page, rather than on the personalities of the editors contributing to the talk page.
Also, please stop making new sections every time something new comes up. It's really unnecessary. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 21:53, 15 March 2016 (UTC) - Hu boy... this is going to be one hell of a boomerang... --Tarage (talk) 21:46, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- What does that mean? I filed this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#Talk:RepRap_project CaptainYuge (talk) 21:48, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- A request to full-protect an article talk page! Wow, just wow. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:01, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- It means WP:BOOMARANG. QuackGuru (talk) 21:51, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- In a nutshell, it means you are not going to get the response you hoped for. You will likely be blocked for this behavior. --Tarage (talk) 21:56, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'm confused. So this guy edit wars like mad for months, gets called out (in this thread!) by admins for it, and I'll be blocked because I drew attention to the problem behavior and harassment by another user? And he's... free to edit war and harass? 21:58, 15 March 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by CaptainYuge (talk • contribs)
- Considering you don't seem to understand that your version of events conflicts with pretty much everyone else who's looking at this's thoughts, I'm doubting you are going to understand. The more you throw a tantrum, the quicker you will be blocked. This will not end well for you. --Tarage (talk) 22:24, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- You're wrong. Jytdog blanked the article to a stub. I found it. I restored a small subset of the sourced content and he began edit warring within minutes over my edits. He demonstrated on the talk page that he has a "personal" standard for what counts as encycloepdiac content, stating outright that he won't allow things in the article that fail to meet "real world impact" standards. I asked for assistance about his edit warring in response to that, as he is operating off of his own personal standards, and refused to cite what if any policies backed up his position. What exactly in the timeline have I missed? CaptainYuge (talk) 22:32, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Considering you don't seem to understand that your version of events conflicts with pretty much everyone else who's looking at this's thoughts, I'm doubting you are going to understand. The more you throw a tantrum, the quicker you will be blocked. This will not end well for you. --Tarage (talk) 22:24, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'm confused. So this guy edit wars like mad for months, gets called out (in this thread!) by admins for it, and I'll be blocked because I drew attention to the problem behavior and harassment by another user? And he's... free to edit war and harass? 21:58, 15 March 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by CaptainYuge (talk • contribs)
- What does that mean? I filed this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#Talk:RepRap_project CaptainYuge (talk) 21:48, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- CaptainYuge has exploded this into some huge drama in their head, very rapidly, and is not discussing in a simple way, the content they disagree about on the article Talk page. They are doing everything but that. Which makes this all feel strangely familiar. Jytdog (talk) 21:58, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- What drama? You are edit warring like mad and ordering people on the page not to include content unless they can demonstrate it shows evidence of a "real world impact", even if it's heavily cited. You are literally edit warring that nothing be included in the article unless your own personal standard that the content has to have some arbitrary 'real world application' is met. Which policy backs that position, exactly? CaptainYuge (talk) 22:01, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Would you please return to the article Talk page and start working through specific content/sourcing that you believe should be in the article? That would be great. Just simply, one at a time. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 22:12, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- No, I think I will first call upon you to cite the specific policy you are using to justify months of edit warring first as part of dispute resolution. Please cite the policy or recuse yourself on all accounts under your control from that article. CaptainYuge (talk) 22:18, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- By refusing to use the talk page to discuss edits, you are setting yourself up to be blocked. --Tarage (talk) 22:26, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- See my 22:32, 15 March 2016 (UTC) edit here. I am perfectly willing to discuss any content based on actual accepted policies here. Jytdog is refusing to cite which policies justify ANY of his removals of content. CaptainYuge (talk) 22:34, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- By refusing to use the talk page to discuss edits, you are setting yourself up to be blocked. --Tarage (talk) 22:26, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- No, I think I will first call upon you to cite the specific policy you are using to justify months of edit warring first as part of dispute resolution. Please cite the policy or recuse yourself on all accounts under your control from that article. CaptainYuge (talk) 22:18, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Would you please return to the article Talk page and start working through specific content/sourcing that you believe should be in the article? That would be great. Just simply, one at a time. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 22:12, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- What drama? You are edit warring like mad and ordering people on the page not to include content unless they can demonstrate it shows evidence of a "real world impact", even if it's heavily cited. You are literally edit warring that nothing be included in the article unless your own personal standard that the content has to have some arbitrary 'real world application' is met. Which policy backs that position, exactly? CaptainYuge (talk) 22:01, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Call me skeptical, but the filer is a brand new account that made a serious of large and complicated edits immediately after registering and knows about various noticeboards... No comment on jytdog's behavior, but CaptainYuge's is a bit suspicious. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:09, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- I told jytdog I edited for years on and off by IP. I finally made an account because why not? CaptainYuge (talk) 22:17, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Just so folks are aware, I have filed this: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Rowssusan. Jytdog (talk) 22:37, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- and... they have apparently retired. Jytdog (talk) 22:54, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Not necessarily. The CU report at the SPI said that CaptainYuge has another account -- which the CU didn't name -- which was apparently not being used in violation of WP:SOCK. Now that the Captain Yuge account has announced its retirement, perhaps the CU, @DeltaQuad:, might say what the name of the second account is, in case the editor decides to use it to continue what CaptainYuge began? BMK (talk) 01:36, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- That constitutes a personal attack, does it not? --Tarage (talk) 23:28, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- For when that gave the wrong result, I see that you've already opened Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/CaptainYuge. When did WP:B-R-SPI become such a popular policy? 8-( Andy Dingley (talk) 20:56, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
According to CaptainYuge, they "Decided to join after years of anonymously helping...".[5] CaptainYuge stated "I told jytdog I edited for years on and off by IP. I finally made an account because why not? "[6] But it has been confirmed that "CaptainYuge does have a second account".[7] QuackGuru (talk) 16:01, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- The two sets of statements are not necessarily contradictory, as the two accounts could have been created at the same time. BMK (talk) 18:56, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- My reading of Yuge's comments and DeltaQuad's admirable "there is no problem" silence was that this other account was created after this business kicked off, but before the technical SPI/CU. Yet despite this, we still have ongoing sniping and veiled personal attacks like these: [8] [9] from Jytdog. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:13, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- And still continuing, "Everybody (with the exception of CaptianYuge) from the RepRap community" Andy Dingley (talk) 22:29, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- My reading of Yuge's comments and DeltaQuad's admirable "there is no problem" silence was that this other account was created after this business kicked off, but before the technical SPI/CU. Yet despite this, we still have ongoing sniping and veiled personal attacks like these: [8] [9] from Jytdog. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:13, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
Some thoughts
I've mixed feelings about this, because, looking at the previous versions of the article in question, I understand the concerns regarding promotion that seems to to have motivated Jytdog here. That being said, this looks like a pretty obvious WP:BRD issue to me. This slow moving edit war of the last couple of weeks seems to have started when Jytdog removed nearly 34k of content at once, 30k in one edit. Pretty much every person who has responded to this issue on the talk page regards that as excessive. Now, A) they might largely be COI editors, and B) Jytdog might actually have the right of the content issue here, depending on his policy rationale, numbers aligned against him not withstanding. But, under BRD, because the content in question was part of a longterm stable version of the article (and especially given the boldness of removing so much content at once) the revert should have stood until such time that Jytdog had secured an unambiguous WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. As the party trying to effect a bold change to a stable version of an article, the burden is upon him to secure that consensus, especially in light of objection from every other voice on the talk page (even be that only four editors). If he, or any party, has concerns about the personal involvement/objectivity of editors working in that space, RfC can always be used to solicit additional outside voices. I think the average experienced editor is probably likely to side with Jytdog, or at least fall somewhere in the middle of the two positions but probably closer to Jytdog (as is the case with me), but A) a fuller consensus is still needed here rather than constant back-and-forth reverts or else this is, by definition, an edit war and B) I think some additional experienced editors might be able to put the issues into terms that might better satisfy the concerns of the regulars on that talk page.
Lastly, while I have questions about CaptainYuge's motivation in all of this (after recent events, I won't exactly be gobsmacked if the latest SPI shows a link between him and Rowssusan), I do agree in principle that this discussion ought to be handled in a more WP:CIVIL manner. I understand that Jytdog may be frustrated, but in my opinion, it is never appropriate to swear for emphasis in edit summaries; if nothing else it undermines the ability of other editors to assume that the party using this language is contributing with the calm we expect, and which makes arguments most compelling. Calling another editor's good-faith contributions "rank bullshit" is just never appropriate; there's always got to be a better--that is, more accurate, specific, and collegial--way to describe the shortcomings in the material. Let's remember that most of this material represents the collaborative efforts of a significant number of editors doing their best to present this topic accurately. Those are my thoughts over this dispute; in short, substantial support for Jytdog's position, but a general sense that he could fine-tune his approach to opposition in this instance. Snow let's rap 00:14, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
According to Arbcom and the current consensus of the administrative corps in general, it is perfectly OK (for favoured editors/admins) to swear at other editors, call them cunts, call them trolls and tell them to fuck off, and have no absolutely no repercussions despite years of incivility. As repeat offenders blocked or dragged before arbcom get let off with not even a slapped wrist, opinining that it is 'inappropriate to swear in edit summaries' is both naive and factually incorrect with the current crop of administrators. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:28, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
- We actually have a list of favored editors, and for $20 I'll be glad to add you. Don't tell anyone, esp. not Doug Weller--he charges $40. Drmies (talk) 04:57, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- How much does it cost to buy one's way onto the list? Just for insurance, you understand. BMK (talk) 18:57, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- Normally, $20... for you, about 20K ;) Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 19:00, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- What about $37.50 and some French postcards? BMK (talk) 17:56, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Only in death: - I doubt that's a true statement. Swearing directly at other users in edit summaries could definitely be considered as a WP:NPA violation and be treated with consequences. Could you please cite what led you to believe that making personal attacks at other users is perfectly fine? Thanks, — Omni Flames (talk contribs) 07:32, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Take a look at Arbcom declined cases or archived discussions at AN. See prolific uncivil editors being unblocked after less than 24 hours by their pet admins. One of the current Arbs stated in a recent rejected case that the 'community was not clear on defining civility.' There are at least 3 standing policies and one of the pillars that state civility is required, yet because current arbcom members dont want to sanction their favoured subjects (why antagonise someone who voted for you/will vote for you in the future) they make idiotic statements like that. The 'community' is clear on how civility should be treated. Its enforcement by admins and Arbcom means the reality is very different. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:33, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Except that it is notoriously difficult to define "civility" or, for that matter, "community". Am I not part of the community? people don't just magically change when they become admins or arbs, and there is no reason whatsoever to assume that it's only friends of the apparently uncivil editors you refer to who get voted into admindom or arbdom. Chances are, their enemies get elected too, who should then, mutatis mutandis, be more than eager to block their Most Hated Editors. Drmies (talk) 15:33, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Notoriously difficult only in your head. Wikipedia:Civility, Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks, Wikipedia:Five_pillars (there are others but those are the important oneS) are all current active policies which to call yourself a community member you are expected to agree with and abide by. They clearly, in plain English describe what is and is not acceptable. Admins/Arbcom members like yourself who outright *refuse* to take action or enforce said policies are why the current actual situation is that civility is an unenforcable joke. You personally are part of the problem and you should be ashamed for continuing to state that it cant be defined. It has already been defined, read the policies. While you continue to deny them, you are activly enabling the decline in civil discussion. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:08, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Drmies is always part of every problem.OID, I assume you're not dead yet, so why haven't you fulfilled your duty and stood for admin? Could it be because with only 2,373 edits in over 4 years, only 270 of which are to articles (11.4%), while 1,335 (56.3%) are to Wikipediaspace, you're really not here to improve the encyclopedia (our sole purpose for existence), but instead to bitch and moan about whatever "crosses your eyeline"? Your complaints about lack of civility would carry a lot more weight if you were actually a productive editor and not a free rider. BMK (talk) 17:15, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Notoriously difficult only in your head. Wikipedia:Civility, Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks, Wikipedia:Five_pillars (there are others but those are the important oneS) are all current active policies which to call yourself a community member you are expected to agree with and abide by. They clearly, in plain English describe what is and is not acceptable. Admins/Arbcom members like yourself who outright *refuse* to take action or enforce said policies are why the current actual situation is that civility is an unenforcable joke. You personally are part of the problem and you should be ashamed for continuing to state that it cant be defined. It has already been defined, read the policies. While you continue to deny them, you are activly enabling the decline in civil discussion. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:08, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Except that it is notoriously difficult to define "civility" or, for that matter, "community". Am I not part of the community? people don't just magically change when they become admins or arbs, and there is no reason whatsoever to assume that it's only friends of the apparently uncivil editors you refer to who get voted into admindom or arbdom. Chances are, their enemies get elected too, who should then, mutatis mutandis, be more than eager to block their Most Hated Editors. Drmies (talk) 15:33, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Take a look at Arbcom declined cases or archived discussions at AN. See prolific uncivil editors being unblocked after less than 24 hours by their pet admins. One of the current Arbs stated in a recent rejected case that the 'community was not clear on defining civility.' There are at least 3 standing policies and one of the pillars that state civility is required, yet because current arbcom members dont want to sanction their favoured subjects (why antagonise someone who voted for you/will vote for you in the future) they make idiotic statements like that. The 'community' is clear on how civility should be treated. Its enforcement by admins and Arbcom means the reality is very different. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:33, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Only in death: - I doubt that's a true statement. Swearing directly at other users in edit summaries could definitely be considered as a WP:NPA violation and be treated with consequences. Could you please cite what led you to believe that making personal attacks at other users is perfectly fine? Thanks, — Omni Flames (talk contribs) 07:32, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- I just looked in on this and was surprised to see this thread still alive. @Omni Flames: and @Only in death does duty end: To be clear, I did not "swear directly at anyone" in the edit note or elsewhere. Calling content "promotional" or "rank bullshit" is different from saying "you are a fucking asshole", in an edit note or anywhere else. I am not saying that it was appropriate for me to be a vulgarian in an edit note - it was not, and it got in the way of working on content which is the point of CIVIL - but what you are talking about is different from what I did here. Jytdog (talk) 21:45, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Jytdog: Oh okay, thanks for clarifying. Perhaps you should've acted in a more calm and WP:CIVIL way, because calling another editors content "rank bullshit" is not appropriate, but I agree that it wasn't a personal attack. — Omni Flames (talk contribs) 21:58, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- No one, including me, has, or has had, any argument with that. Jytdog (talk) 22:12, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's pretty much exactly why I felt denying attention was the way to handle Only in Death's comment, because it felt like the discussion had achieved the most it was going to get, which is to say, a tacit agreement from everyone to move on try to be more careful, even if nobody was jumping to apologize to one-another, which is pretty good as these things go. That's why I found OID's comment unproductive. It's not a matter of whether he's right or just grousing out of cluelessness, and it's not a matter of whether he has enough contributions to warrant an opinion on these matters. It's that it didn't belong here and wasn't doing any good. I almost said as much insofar as his comment was nominally addressed at something I said--though in truth it was obviously just a way to shoehorn in a complaint into another discussion--but I realized it would just be a waste of more time (this waste of time, specifically).
- No one, including me, has, or has had, any argument with that. Jytdog (talk) 22:12, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Jytdog: Oh okay, thanks for clarifying. Perhaps you should've acted in a more calm and WP:CIVIL way, because calling another editors content "rank bullshit" is not appropriate, but I agree that it wasn't a personal attack. — Omni Flames (talk contribs) 21:58, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- If OID thinks he's the only one who has felt like ArbCom has passed on some cases they probably shouldn't have since the last election, I daresay he's wrong, but using a thread reserved for practical purposes as a platform to attack admins broadly is just WP:SOAPBOX and frankly just dragging drama into one of those few ANI threads that didn't end with either A) a sanction or B) the community just generally exhausted and sending both sides to their corner. Besides, the kind of sanction that is most likely here is one that is decided by community resolution, not admins or ArbCom. And honestly, I think its pretty ballsy for OID to come this forum and bitch about how low our standards are concerning civility; all things considered, he's pretty lucky we aren't more strict about behaviour of that sort, considering most of us take implying that another editor is a sex offender more seriously than we do those who curse at eachother (though I find both to be well short of the behaviour expected here, personally). Let's close this and move on. Snow let's rap 07:51, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- For 'practical purposes' pretending civility is actionable anymore is a lie with no basis in the current administrative or arbcom enforced environment. Any actual blocks against repeat offenders are quickly overturned, if anyone takes action in the first place. But frankly if you wanted to keep a thread 'reserved for practical purposes' you shouldn't have labelled it 'some thoughts' and filled it with worthless and misleading pontificating. If you don't want people to comment on your proclamations, keep them to yourself. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:44, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- The difference between my post and yours OID (aside from general tone and the way they have been received) is that my comments were focused on the matter at hand. The purpose of this thread (and this noticeboard) is to address specific behavioural issues, not leverage a discussion as excuse to vent out polemic screed just to make your general dissatisfaction with the administration corps known. We can (and on a daily basis do) hand out sanctions in this space. But even better is when we manage to use it to resolve a conflict short of that, which is what was going on here at the time you decided to interject your tangent--which was just basically random bad-faith directed at parties we weren't even talking about. You want to see more people banned for incivility in general, we get it. But what we had here was a situation where we weren't going to ban anyone and the editors in question had both backed off. There was even a certain amount of owning up to how things could have been done better, and it takes strength of character to do that.
- It should have been allowed to end there--and would have, if not for your need to tell us all how things should be done... And frankly, I think it is a giant pity that everyone didn't just ignore you to show just how helpful we view that kind of thing. Except for Drmies...their response was the perfect study in how to disarm random criticism with real wit. But I'm not Drmies, so I'll just say WP:DROPTHESTICK and if you really have problems with the way blocks are used in general, take it to any one of the dozens of heavily-trafficked central community discussion spaces where such an abstract discussion might be useful (or at least more appropriate). Or, as BMK says, get some more in-depth experience of the project and RfA yourself. But don't expect random hijacks of ANI threads for the purposes soapboxing to go over well even if you somehow end up with a mop... Snow let's rap 09:48, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Laura Branigan birth date, and birth place
Overall, the issue is official source verus user edited sources. Ultimately, the users Born53 swe and Thomas.W are using user submitted references to prove a different birth date and birth place. The official website for the singer is being ignored for this. There is a lot to read at this point and much of it in the last day. I have tried once to correct the birth date and place and got reverted. Reading over the talk page, it goes into other languages, and weird conspiracies about her age at death.
Overall, the issue is her birth date. Official website says July 3, 1957. She was born in Brewster, New York. Descending view is July 3, 1952 in Mount Kisco, New York. Devilmanozzy (talk) 18:56, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- Devilmanozzy - Have you discussed your concerns on the article's talk page, or with these editors on their talk page? ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 18:59, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- I found this article [10] which quotes "one superfan" who supports the 1952 date. And then I had a look at the talk page of the article. Seems like a WP:COI. (I am not providing a diff since I don't want to violate WP:OUTING, although the editor in question has voluntarily provided the name). --Lemongirl942 (talk) 19:36, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)This is ridiculous. See User talk:Diannaa#Laura Branigan for more information, and page history of Laura Branigan for previous disruption, disruption going back several years and severe enough to result in several blocks last year, and protection of the article on and off for the past several years. Laura Branigan's former manager (editing as User:Vince-OHE, formerly named "Other Half Entertainment" and with self-proclaimed COI, and also editing as many IPs), claims it's 1957 but has provided no independent sources for it, only his own website and sources that obviously got the infornation from there, while other editors, including User:Born53 swe, claim it's 1952, and have made a much more convincing case than the manager. It is in ther words a content dispute, and as such does not belong on ANI. Thomas.W talk 19:43, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- I agree that this is a content dispute and such discussion belongs on the article's talk page, not in an ANI. Devilmanozzy, please create a discussion on the article's talk page (if you haven't already done so), so that the issue can be discussed and resolved properly. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 19:49, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oshwah, I really don't know what to do. I usually edit at wikia, which has none of this. I am here to correct a birth date a birth place to a singer from a soundtrack to a movie I care about. Devilmanozzy (talk) 21:55, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- Devilmanozzy - There are other editors that have issues with the date that you're trying to add to the article, as well as the source that you're trying to use to support the change. You need to properly discuss these concerns by navigating to the article's talk page and creating a discussion to resolve it. If another editor has already created a discussion, you will want to respond to it and discuss the issue with them and address their concerns. Once a consensus is reached, the article can be modified (or kept at the status quo) in order to reflect that consensus. In order to allow this ANI discussion to be closed for archiving (this issue does not belong on this noticeboard), please respond on my talk page with any additional questions or concerns that you may have. I'll be happy to assist you there. :-) ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 22:17, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- User:Dweller opened up a section about getting links. (Talk:Laura Branigan#Trying to help resolve the birth year issue) Is that what is needed? Devilmanozzy (talk) 22:44, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- Devilmanozzy - There are other editors that have issues with the date that you're trying to add to the article, as well as the source that you're trying to use to support the change. You need to properly discuss these concerns by navigating to the article's talk page and creating a discussion to resolve it. If another editor has already created a discussion, you will want to respond to it and discuss the issue with them and address their concerns. Once a consensus is reached, the article can be modified (or kept at the status quo) in order to reflect that consensus. In order to allow this ANI discussion to be closed for archiving (this issue does not belong on this noticeboard), please respond on my talk page with any additional questions or concerns that you may have. I'll be happy to assist you there. :-) ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 22:17, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oshwah, I really don't know what to do. I usually edit at wikia, which has none of this. I am here to correct a birth date a birth place to a singer from a soundtrack to a movie I care about. Devilmanozzy (talk) 21:55, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- I agree that this is a content dispute and such discussion belongs on the article's talk page, not in an ANI. Devilmanozzy, please create a discussion on the article's talk page (if you haven't already done so), so that the issue can be discussed and resolved properly. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 19:49, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)"Other Half Entertainment" have behaved as if they own the article about Laura Branigan for ten years now, see this post from July 2006 on Talk:Laura Branigan, where they claim to have the right to control what's in the Wikipedia article, it is also complicated by there being two "official websites", laurabraniganonline.com, owned by Other Half Entertainment, and laurabranigan.com, owned by someone else, fighting over which site is the official one. So all of it is one big mess... Thomas.W talk 20:00, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- In case this was not completely obvious, if it's disputed, remove it until there is unambiguous agreement on talk and completely robust sourcing. Guy (Help!) 22:04, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- The reason I brought this down here was because I was unable to organize a discussion on this due to how Thomas has been reacting to what I brought to the article. It is confusing to come to an article ruled by one point of view. After finding a ongoing battle starting up, I asked for help. Now it seems that the discussion is now in progress. Hopefully the outcome will be respected. Devilmanozzy (talk) 22:56, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- WP:ABOUTSELF trumps WP:UGC "sources". The end. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:35, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- @SMcCandlish: In an ideal world where everything is simple, yes, but in this case the subject of the article passed away twelve years ago, leaving two official websites that AFAIK still haven't been able to settle the dispute about which one of them is the official website, since both of them still claim that they're the real official one, making them nothing more than fansites. And WP:ABOUTSELF can hardly apply in this case since the information isn't about themselves, i.e. the site and its owners (Laura Branigan's former manager), but about Laura Branigan. WP:ABOUTSELF also says that self-published sources aren't allowed if there is reasonable doubt as to its authenticity, which I feel there is since Laura Branigan is dead and can neither confirm nor deny anything that is said on either of the two "official websites". Thomas.W talk 00:17, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Why would an alleged "official" site not created by her manager be considered legit? I.e., if Branigan trusted the manger to run the site while alive, that would appear to make that the official site, well, officially, absent any evidence that the manager went nutso after she died and made weird changes. If it was ABOUTSELF-worthy before she died, it wouldn't be suddenly unreliable the day after she did, absent evidence of post-death shenanigans at the site. I can right this minute go create a third "official" Laura Branigan website but WP would have reason to take that seriously, so why are we taking seriously the claims of officialness by another site that isn't by her staff? I agree that the manager ("former manager" is kinda POV, suggesting he was terminated) acting OWNy here is a COI problem, but that's unrelated to whether the external source maintained for Branigan then and now by this person has somehow become unreliable and unofficial and not more reliable than a fansite just because she's died or because the manager is being too proprietary here. If anything, it seems like the manager is trying to be protective; it's not like he's some vandal. Anyway, if we don't want to trust either site, just say the birthdate is disputed, cite them both in once ref as example primary sources demonstrating that different dates are claimed, and leave it at that until more sources are found. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:46, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- This is relevant, though doesn't provide any reliable sources one way or the other. Laura Jamieson (talk) 18:38, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Application of WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS
Robert McClenon (talk · contribs) has closed an RfC at talk:Mayan languages talk:Maya civilization in favor of a minority viewpoint held by 3 editors against 9 editors citing WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS. As I understand this policy, it is only to be applied in cases where the majority argument clearly violates a policy, and also it seems only to apply to admin closures in AfD discussions? Is this a valid and reasonable application of the policy on rough consensus?--·maunus · snunɐɯ· 19:32, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Maunus: I'm pretty sure you mean Talk:Maya civilization, as the talk page for Mayan languages has not been edited since October 2015, and that was by a bot. As far as the close goes, I agree that it should probably be looked over. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 20:26, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- He does specifically this RFC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KoshVorlon (talk • contribs) 20:31, 17 March 2016
- As to where to discuss, see Wikipedia:Closing discussions#Challenging_other_closures. As I explain there and on my talk page, the issue is whether I misread what Yes and No meant in the original question. I did see 9 No and 3 Yes !votes as a rough consensus for No. I moved this thread to WP:AN, and User:Maunus has reverted my deletion here, but the properly placed closure review is still at WP:AN. I'll leave it up to an uninvolved admin to close this thread here because WP:AN is a better forum. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:59, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- No, my question is about the correct application of the policy WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS - it is not a formal closure review. This is an appropriate place to discuss this. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 22:12, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'm confused. You asked if this particular RFC closure was a correct application of a guideline, yet you say you don't want to challenge the closure. We can't do the first without looking at the second. Or do you want us to go around in bureaucratic circles for a while until someone does challenge the closure? Katietalk 00:53, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- No, my question is about the correct application of the policy WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS - it is not a formal closure review. This is an appropriate place to discuss this. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 22:12, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- As to where to discuss, see Wikipedia:Closing discussions#Challenging_other_closures. As I explain there and on my talk page, the issue is whether I misread what Yes and No meant in the original question. I did see 9 No and 3 Yes !votes as a rough consensus for No. I moved this thread to WP:AN, and User:Maunus has reverted my deletion here, but the properly placed closure review is still at WP:AN. I'll leave it up to an uninvolved admin to close this thread here because WP:AN is a better forum. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:59, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Maunus: I'm not sure what "policy" you're referring to. There is quite simply no policy. WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS is actually part of the deletion guidelines which don't apply to this situation at all. The actual policy on consensus says nothing remotely akin to what you describe; it actually makes no mention of "rough consensus" at all. You may be surprised to learn that there is no policy or guideline on closing discussions in general or the application of rough consensus. WP:RFC simply says RfCs can be closed by any uninvolved editor and directs you to WP:CLOSE for more information on formal closure. WP:CLOSE actually says the desired standard is rough consensus. So, in sum, I see nothing wrong whatsoever with Robert's closure. If you dispute his reading of consensus, then of course there are ways to appeal, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with reading a "rough consensus" and there never has been. Swarm ♠ 01:41, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Swarm:. You see nothing wrong with closing a discussion in which 9 people !vote no and 3 people !vote yes as "yes" without saying why the 3 peoples argument is considered stronger than the 9? How is that a "rough consensus"? So when can I go to an Rfc with 9 against 3 and close it in agreement with the 3 and claim "rough consensus" with no further argument? If there is no policy on "rough consensus" that aplies outside of deletion discussions then RObert McClenon misapplied the guideline since he used it as support for disregarding the majority argument.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 03:48, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Maunus: You asked a specific question above regarding "the correct application of the policy". I merely answered your question by clarifying that this aspect isn't an issue—there is no rule regarding rough consensus of any sort. Beyond that, I'm not sure why you're not understanding Robert's replies. He clearly states above that he did see a consensus for "no" and intended to side with them. He explained both here and on his talk page that he may have simply misunderstood what the "no"s meant and has offered to revise the close if he misinterpreted them. In the RfC, "no" meant do not omit the repetition. It appears he simply took them to mean do not repeat. Given the double-negative involved, it seems an easy enough mistake to make and all that's required here is a revised closing comment. I was able to deduce this by his reply on his talk page. It appears you were so caught up on the perceived injustice, you overlooked the fact that he made an honest mistake that is easily fixed. Swarm ♠ 04:19, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- What I had said was the 9 Nos and 3 Yeses was a rough consensus for No. If I misunderstood which position was Yes and which position was No, then my close was incorrect, not because of any confusion about ROUGHCONSENSUS, but because of a misunderstanding. If so, I would suggest that this thread be closed as in the wrong forum, and reopened or refiled at WP:AN. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:26, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Exactly what I was trying to explain. You misinterpreted the "no" position resulting in a mistaken closing comment opposite of the actual consensus. No big deal. We merely need someone to revise the closing comment and the issue is resolved... Swarm ♠ 04:34, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- I would be fine with that, although I find it hard to believe that Robert McClenon did not realize that his closing comment was in agreement with the three yes !votes and against the 9 no votes, since the rationale in fact repeats the phrasing of the yes votes, and in no way seems to mistake yes and no. But if Robert McClenon acknowledges the closing was an error, then he can certainly revise the close himself to fit the consensus, or undo it and let someone else do the closing. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 07:09, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- I've posted to his talk page asking him to do this as it's been almost 24 hours. Doug Weller talk 07:06, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- I would be fine with that, although I find it hard to believe that Robert McClenon did not realize that his closing comment was in agreement with the three yes !votes and against the 9 no votes, since the rationale in fact repeats the phrasing of the yes votes, and in no way seems to mistake yes and no. But if Robert McClenon acknowledges the closing was an error, then he can certainly revise the close himself to fit the consensus, or undo it and let someone else do the closing. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 07:09, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Exactly what I was trying to explain. You misinterpreted the "no" position resulting in a mistaken closing comment opposite of the actual consensus. No big deal. We merely need someone to revise the closing comment and the issue is resolved... Swarm ♠ 04:34, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- What I had said was the 9 Nos and 3 Yeses was a rough consensus for No. If I misunderstood which position was Yes and which position was No, then my close was incorrect, not because of any confusion about ROUGHCONSENSUS, but because of a misunderstanding. If so, I would suggest that this thread be closed as in the wrong forum, and reopened or refiled at WP:AN. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:26, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Maunus: You asked a specific question above regarding "the correct application of the policy". I merely answered your question by clarifying that this aspect isn't an issue—there is no rule regarding rough consensus of any sort. Beyond that, I'm not sure why you're not understanding Robert's replies. He clearly states above that he did see a consensus for "no" and intended to side with them. He explained both here and on his talk page that he may have simply misunderstood what the "no"s meant and has offered to revise the close if he misinterpreted them. In the RfC, "no" meant do not omit the repetition. It appears he simply took them to mean do not repeat. Given the double-negative involved, it seems an easy enough mistake to make and all that's required here is a revised closing comment. I was able to deduce this by his reply on his talk page. It appears you were so caught up on the perceived injustice, you overlooked the fact that he made an honest mistake that is easily fixed. Swarm ♠ 04:19, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Swarm:. You see nothing wrong with closing a discussion in which 9 people !vote no and 3 people !vote yes as "yes" without saying why the 3 peoples argument is considered stronger than the 9? How is that a "rough consensus"? So when can I go to an Rfc with 9 against 3 and close it in agreement with the 3 and claim "rough consensus" with no further argument? If there is no policy on "rough consensus" that aplies outside of deletion discussions then RObert McClenon misapplied the guideline since he used it as support for disregarding the majority argument.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 03:48, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
He's reversed his close, and I re-closed it as consensus to keep the two words in the title. Hope that buttons this one up. Katietalk 14:52, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Ok, so the conclusion here is that WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS with its support for closing against the majority !vote, does not apply to RfC closes. I am happy to know that.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 15:13, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
WP:Brian Martin (social scientist) : other editor is feeling stalked/harassed. And is also attacking me.
- Brian Martin (social scientist) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Help Desk refered me here. As Gongwool [11] is feeling harassed and stalked I think it better to discuss resolutions with others present. On BLP WP:Brian Martin (social scientist)[12] I am getting attacked and Gongwool is feeling stalked/harassed.
Gongwool is refusing to discuss edits with me. Rather Gongwool posted their discussion to an admin's page without notifying me. [13]
I have made the mistake of addressing user conduct on theBLP Talk page.
- Examples of SmithBlue addressing user conduct on talk page: [14], [15], [16], [17]
- Examples of attacks by Gongwool and Gongwool feeling harrased :WP:Brian Martin Talk page:
Accuses SmithBlue of CoI:[18], Accusation of Harrassment and DE, statement of no further comms.[19], Claims SmithBlue wishes to "whitewash" the article and has a CoI: [20]
- Examples of attacks, feeling stalked and harrased, noncivil and accusatory edit sums:
- 07:06, 9 February 2016 Gongwool (talk | contribs) . . (7,122 bytes) (+78) . . (Fixed para due to complaining IP editor.)
- 05:29, 15 March 2016 Gongwool (talk | contribs) . . (11,733 bytes) (+427) . . (Add text from book as I was being from agro editor not practicing Good Faith.)
- 05:55, 15 March 2016 Gongwool (talk | contribs) . . (11,799 bytes) (+66) . . (Added 2 more references to hopefully stop agro from an editor.)
- 23:16, 17 March 2016 Gongwool (talk | contribs) . . (13,680 bytes) (+658) . . (Undid revision 710599623 by SmithBlue (talk) It is WP:RS Science news journal. Sorry, I don't discuss with this stalky editor due to his prior harassment. So won't engage in his silly arguments.)
- 23:45, 17 March 2016 Gongwool (talk | contribs) . . (13,704 bytes) (+24) . . (→Criticism: Changed text to quote to satisfy any pro-OPV-AIDS / pro-Vaccine-Autism link 'Fringe theorists' who may be overly-critical of cites here for reasons of bias.)
I do want the "stalky" "harrasment" issue cleaned up. I do not want an WP editor feeling stalked and harrasssed. Nor do I want to be portrayed in those terms. And I want the attacks to stop. Where to from here? (This BLP is very unstable. There were recent ongoing BLP violation issues. Diffs of large changes; [21], [22] Editing practices may need to be addressed.) SmithBlue (talk) 03:34, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- This is very confusing.
- Are you the one feeling harassed or is Gongwool feeling harassed?
- Are you speaking of yourself in the 3rd person?
- Blackmane (talk) 04:23, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- 1. Hi, yes it's confusing. I have not requested that this editor make a complaint about himself on my behalf so I have crossed out the parts of the complaint on my behalf that I never asked for. With that in mind others may understand why I don't engage with this editor.
- 2. Anyway, I think the real issue here is that this particular editor has has a current suspension warning from an admin for editing "fringe theory" issues and is sore with this. Whereas I don't support fringe theory and (understandingly) have no such warnings hanging over my head. He will now certainly reply below in an attempt to engage me in some awkward argy-bargy agenda, but I will not reply. Have a good day. Thanks. Bye. Gongwool (talk) 05:41, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Please don't refactor others' comments, Gongwool. That said, I'm kinda glad this was brought here... though I am still confused. This ended up on my user talk page and frankly I ignored it as an editor dispute that I didn't want part of and because I really didn't understand what was going on. Anyway, it needs some attention. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:55, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- OK EvergreenFir, understood. But to all others please ignore the 95% of the above complaint which involves the other editor making a complaint about himself on my behalf. I did not authorise such. I'm also confused... but just getting on with WP editor business and avoiding those who have a 'fringe theory' (see his warning from admin here) agenda who desperately try to wind me up. I know there's policies at WP about pushing fringe theory and totally agree. Thanks, bye. Gongwool (talk) 06:20, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Please don't refactor others' comments, Gongwool. That said, I'm kinda glad this was brought here... though I am still confused. This ended up on my user talk page and frankly I ignored it as an editor dispute that I didn't want part of and because I really didn't understand what was going on. Anyway, it needs some attention. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:55, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
As is obvious Gongwool portrays me as "pushing a fringe theory". Given that I'm not "pushing a fringe theory" this seems to be a form of taunting. Taunting would seem to disrupt editing. SmithBlue (talk) 07:00, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- See I told you he'd try to engage in argy-bargy argument and wind me up. Taunting? I think his bizarre reverse complaint (making a complaint on my behalf identifying himself as the offender) shows the reverse. His complaint compultion is too weird for me (sorry but I think he craves chaos on 'fringe theory'). I've better things to do. bye.!!! Gongwool (talk) 07:15, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Admins, experienced users. What do you suggest? SmithBlue (talk) 07:23, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
The real problem
- SmithBlue (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
SmithBlue joined Wikipedia in 2007. Up to the end of 2008 xe was reasonably active, but with a number of edits related to the OPV AIDS hypothesis, a refuted AIDS origin hypothesis promoted by Edward Hooper and latterly supported by Brian Martin (the locus of dispute toady). Example edits: [24], [25], [26].
Then, after a lengthy absence, SmithBlue returned with all guns blazing on Feb 9 2016, with this ANI report on a dispute where xe had no apparent prior involvement at all (unless xe was using an alternate account?). There's also this, linking a polemical "review" of our article on the OPV AIDS hypothesis on a crank alt-med website.
As far as I can see, SmithBlue's major beef is with the fact that the OPV AIDS hypothesis is considered refuted. From xyr edits, xe appears to consider it rejected and suppressed, not refuted. In fact, the sources show it to be refuted by robust evidence including DNA analysis.
- Addendum: In pushing for a less dismissive treatment of this refuted hypothesis, SmithBlue has started six separate sections of discussion on Talk:Brian Martin (social scientist), five of them within a single 24 hour period. He appears to eblieve that consensus necessarily means that he must agree ([27]). This is, obviously, false: consensus does not mean unanimity, and editors are fully entitled to ignore stonewalling. SmithBlue is making large numbers of rapid-fire demands on the Talk page (e.g. this series: [28]) without allowing adequate time for others to respond. He seems, in short, to be showing all the classic signs of being here to Right Great Wrongs. His wrongteous anger is clearly getting the better of him.
- A review of SmithBlue's edits shows a determination to present The Truth™ about the OPV-AIDS hypothesis - an idea first published in that well-known medical journal Rolling Stone and primarily promoted by Edward Hooper, a journalist with no known medical qualifications, which has been refuted by phylogenetic and molecular biological studies. The word refuted here is used in its correct technical sense, ref Nature. This hypothesis has been exploited by anti-vaccination activists and has played a part in preventing the final eradication of poliomyelitis. Not just nonsense, then, but deadly nonsense - so quite high stakes as far as the reliability of Wikipedia goes.
I issued a DS notice: [29].
I believe that editors of the Brian Martin article are losing patience with rebutting SmithBlue's querulous demands. This seems to me to be WP:BOOMERANG territory. Guy (Help!) 09:06, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for turning up Guy. Uninvolved admins - yes Guy is a very involved admin at WP:Brian Martin - please check;
- this diff[30] for the BLP Brian Martin that compares from immediately prior to Guy's first edit there with the article just prior to me arriving with all guns blazing.
- This diff [31] which is the result of a cleanup by respected Wikipedians User:Darouet, User:Drmies, User:DGG, User:EverGreenFir & User:Bilby. Due, I understand, to my flagging the BLP vios and Disruptive Editing.
- Guy protests the mass removal of material. And bilby responds :Hi! The short version is that there were a pile of BLP violations in the article - claims not supported by sources, sources being incorrectly used to create false claims, and issues around due weight. ...[32] Pure magic.
In light of Guy's involvement in turning BLP WP:Brian Martin into an attack piece and his defence of it when I tried BLPN and AN/I I suggest that Guy's actions at BLP Briann Martin make him a subject of this ANI as well. Please bear that in mind when you read his attempts to portray me as disruptive. I think it would be helpful to ask User:Darouet, User:Drmies, User:DGG, User:EvergreenFir & User:Bilby for their views on the state of the article when they arrived. SmithBlue (talk) 09:37, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- I am certainly involved in the Martin article, though more as a result of his sponsorship of an antivax PhD that fails even the most basic tests of academic rigour. Now you need to read WP:NOTTHEM. Guy (Help!) 09:42, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
The reasons you were active on Brian Martin are not why I am here. I am here in large part because of your editing conduct on WP:Brian Martin. SmithBlue (talk) 09:49, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- I see that he's got his guns blazing from you too Guy (Help!), that's because you are also believe in WP:fringe policy. The offender's aim is to scare off any person who is not a pro-OPVAIDS or pro-Vax-Autism link fringe theorist, and his badgering seems to be working well. He's put in about 3 or 4 complaints about this article and seem to have failed, he won't give up. I asked him some time back to leave me alone as I knew he was "trouble" and he's done the exact opposite, finally putting in this ridiculous complaint on my behalf just to try and have an argumentative debate with me. Yep, he's trouble to you, me or any person who may support of WP:fringe policy. Can he be banned from this and any other article discussing fringe theory and fringe theory scientific correction issues? I don't know how such works. Gongwool (talk) 10:53, 18 March 2016 (UTC) Gongwool (talk) 11:01, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Comment There's obviously an element of content disputation here; but tbh User:Gongwool does also seem to have a somewhat unpolished attitude towards collegiality. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 11:27, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Maybe, but he's been getting along OK with Bilby and they have been collaborating well enough to improve the articles. Gongwool should be aware that it's not really necessary to poke SmithBlue with a sharp stick, xe looks like xe is quite capable of digging xyr own grave unaided. Guy (Help!) 12:05, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yes Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi and JzG, I don't admit to being too polished or experienced (unless that's a crime), but all understood and heard. Then again none of us asked for this complaint to be here, it's designed to be somewhat of a distraction, one thinks. Gongwool (talk) 12:32, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Maybe, but he's been getting along OK with Bilby and they have been collaborating well enough to improve the articles. Gongwool should be aware that it's not really necessary to poke SmithBlue with a sharp stick, xe looks like xe is quite capable of digging xyr own grave unaided. Guy (Help!) 12:05, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Comment There's obviously an element of content disputation here; but tbh User:Gongwool does also seem to have a somewhat unpolished attitude towards collegiality. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 11:27, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- No, SmithBlue, you are here because you want to recruit support in your attempts to push fringe content into the article, when you are failing to gain any traction at all on the article's Talk page. That much is obvious from your statement of the dispute: you want to run the opposition out of town. It's not going to work because the edits you propose are not supported by policy. It's hardly a surprise, given your very limited experience of Wikipedia. However, the problem is not with "everybody else", it's with your unwillingness to heed consensus and apparent attempts to portray a refuted antivax trope as a valid but suppressed theory. It's not suppressed, it's refuted, as our article clearly shows. The science has actually become more settled since you originally tried this. Wikipedia is not the place to present anti-vaccination tropes as anything other than the dangerous bullshit they are. This is by design. Guy (Help!) 12:18, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
No Guy I am here because I saw the BLP Brian Martin overflowing with BLP violations sometime around early February and eventually decided to intervene[[33]]. Since then I have;
- flagged the violations in a BLPN,
- flagged the violations in an AN/I,
- flagged your participations in the violations at a separate AN/I,
- provided a list of further on-going un-addressed BLP violations at both AN/Is,
- been mistypified by you as pushing fring content,
- been taunted and attacked by your protege on BLP Brian Martin - Gongwool[[34]],
- been ignored when I made requests for assistance to multiple admins regarding the BLP violations and user conduct violations,
- started this AN/I to address the attacking micro-culture you as asenior admin created on BLP Brian Martin,
- addressed your user conduct around deliberately violating BLP policy and your advising others to ignore BLP policy.
& been struck by the participation rate of un-involved neutral admins to this AN/I. This is why I am here. I bother cause I'm not yet convinced that WP is irretrievably broken. Maybe if WP can improve its integrity - and live by it's claimed standards - things can yet turn around. And WP fulfil it's potential. SmithBlue (talk) 22:52, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Canvassing
WP:CANVASS and WP:NPA in one hit, good job. See [35]. Incidentally, SmithBlue, this set ([36], [37], [38], [39]) is unnecessary since the pings you already included will have alerted these good people. Guy (Help!) 12:29, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- I asked explicitly about contacting the admins who cleaned up the BLP. And was told that, as long as I didn't coach them, it would be OK. Do you disagree with the advise I got from Help Desk Chat? Do you object to 5 Wikipedians who cleaned up the BLP presenting their views?SmithBlue (talk) 12:36, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- There are two parts to my statement above. The first is that your post to Seabreezes1 was unambiguously inappropriate (albeit that it shows very clearly your failure to comprehend why your edits are rejected). The second was that the other posts to Talk pages were unnecessary since they will already be aware through your mentioning them here; writing on this page is in any case going firther than contacting those admins and is instead contacting the entire admin community. I can't comment on the claim you make about Help Desk anyway, since the last posting by you to Help Desk I can find was in 2008: [40] and was about something else entirely. And anybody who's seen my talk page will know I have no problem at all with involving any other admins, especially DGG, or indeed Drmies, both of whom I hold in high regard. Guy (Help!) 13:04, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
You'll find my request for clarification in the logs of Help Desk Chat: "Do you need real-time chat help with your issue? Join our IRC channel at #wikipedia-en-help" link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_desk/chat I appreciate your demonstration of AGF on this issue. SmithBlue (talk) 21:41, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- I suspect you are misinterpreting "sod off, we're not going to fix this". But even if you're not, posting here does the same job, as I was pointing out. Guy (Help!) 22:48, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Smokescreen
The attempt, by Guy, to portray me as attempting "to push fringe content" has a major flaw.
- I have not attempted to push fringe content.
(see section below [[41]] where's Guy's mis-categorisation is made clear.)
Even a quick inspection of any diff put forward will show that I am a stickler for WP policy and guidelines around pseudoscience and just about everything. WP:Infant formula - maybe I messed up there 8 years ago and let nonsourced material remain?
My goal, (was it 8 years ago when I put forward those science academic publication sources?), was to have the topic portrayed exactly in line with WP policy and guidelines. I always discussed and sought consensus. And still do. Hence this AN/I.
What lies behind this smokescreen of Guy's?
User conduct in the flicking of a BLP into an attack piece.
Here again are the diffs showing the arc of the BLP through the Guy, Gongwool and Jewjoo period[42] and out the other side[43].
- Guy actively defended the BLP violations on the BLPN that I started in an attempt to get the BLP vios addressed. [[44]]
I've been watching things unfold with the Brian Martin (professor) article, and wrote this a day or two ago, and hope it helps...
This article is quite derogatory about Martin himself, and his work, yet this is not based on strong evidence. It seems to be mainly based on slanted views of a WP:SPA editor. I would think the article, and Talk page, contravene WP:BLP.
More clarification and context on Martin's publishing record is needed to better examine this situation, but details of Martin's key publications have been removed from the page several times: [33], [34].
Despite what is being said in this WP article, Martin has published many peer-reviewed journal articles. But, yes, he does publish widely in a diverse range of publication outlets, as many academics do. The article is portraying Martin as an activist, but to me he is just an "interdisciplinary academic" working in the area of "science and technology studies (STS)." He is a full professor employed full-time at a major university.
There is an amazing amount of criticism of Martin in the second paragraph of the article, relating to Michael Primero, Andrew Wakefield, and Judith Wilyman. Yet, material about Martins' STS professorial colleagues, Mark Diesendorf, Ian Lowe and Jim Falk has been removed from the article with little discussion. Johnfos (talk) 22:45, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Negative, yes, but not inaccurate. He has a history of misidentifying cranks as whistleblowers, and his supervision of the Wilyman PhD calls into question his fitness to supervise further PhDs, as that document used confirmation bias and conspiracist thinking in place of actual evidence. Guy (Help!) 23:00, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
- Guy actively defended the BLP violations on the ANI that I started (Note the smokescreening) [[45]].
The article is being actively edited and the only material identified as an inaccurate representation of the sources has been fixed. Martin is the subject of legitimate and well-sourced criticism for his support of a PhD that failed every conceivable test of valid research work, that is not our problem to fix. I note that much of your history relates to defending Hooper's discredited advocacy of the OPV-AIDS hypothesis, a common anti-vax trope. I suspect that the "inaccuracy" you identify may in fact be accuracy that you just don't like. Guy (Help!) 09:02, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
- On WP:Brian Martin, two edits clearly summed as BLP issues with existing discusions on Talk;
15:29, 4 February 2016 124.171.109.96 (talk) . . (6,361 bytes) (-927) . . (BLP issue: rem inaccurate reflection of source. see Talk) [[46]] &
16:14, 4 February 2016 124.171.109.96 (talk) . . (6,558 bytes) (-185) . . (rem "published by A rather than B" from lede. BLP, OR see Talk)
[[47]]
Guy claims whitewashing & reverts:
22:55, 4 February 2016 JzG (talk | contribs) . . (7,288 bytes) (+730) . . (Reverted 4 edits by 124.171.109.96 (talk): Revert whitewashing. Please discuss on Talk efore removing material. (TW))[[48]]
Guy with that edit summ also promoted actions in violation of BLP policy. BLP policy is clear that "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately ...". Not discussed and then later removed.
And what was Guy defending?
Here again is Bilby's reply [[49]] "... there were a pile of BLP violations in the article - claims not supported by sources, sources being incorrectly used to create false claims, ..."
SmithBlue (talk) 14:36, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Ho-hum, it looks like big bad Guy is attempting to keep Wikipedia on the straight-and-narrow again, and someone is complaining about it again. I suppose that means that the sun will set again this evening. BMK (talk) 18:00, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- SmithBlue asked me to look at the article. Without considering the history, of specific BLP questions, the actual material about the subject appears basically fair, but the presentation is slanted by multiple statements that the OPV-AIDS theory is discredited. So it is, and it is appropriate to say so in the article, but stating it one time is enough. I have noticed a similar problem in some other articles on scientist out of the mainstream. DGG ( talk ) 23:15, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for coming DGG. As I have raised the issue of BLP violations on the article I ask that you give your appraisal of the article as it was immediately before I intervened.[[50]]
- Yeah, that tends to happen when people keep trying to change it to suppressed or disputed instead of refuted, which is what it is. You end up with a hundred sources for a trivial and uncontentious (except to a tiny minority) fact. A pet peeve, really, since non-neutral crud gets added, it gets neutralised and left, and the paragraph never gets copyedited down to its essence. Still and all, 100% of the noise on that talk page right now is coming from one source: SmithBlue. Guy (Help!) 00:49, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Proposal re SmithBlue
It is unclear to me how this thread got so long, nor why User:SmithBlue has not been blocked under the PSCI DS yet for abuse of BLP to to POV-push PSCI and for WP:Civil POV-pushingWP:Civil POV pushing at the Martin article and the OPV AIDS hypothesis article. I propose a 48-hour block on SmithBlue to prevent further disruption to the project. The mainstream editors involved here have better things to do than keep going round and round on this stuff. Jytdog (talk) 20:06, 19 March 2016 (UTC) (fixed typo in wikilink Jytdog (talk) 00:18, 20 March 2016 (UTC))
- My current concern is the integrity of WP. I undertake not to edit on BLP Brian Martin for 48 hours. While I do this voluntarily I reject your view that I am "WP:Civil POV-pushing at the Martin article and the OPV AIDS hypothesis article". Please provide your reasoning for categorising my edits on Brian Martin or OPV-AIDS as WP:Civil POV-pushing. SmithBlue (talk) 21:26, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Your flooding this thread with comments following my posting above kind of proves point my point about disruption. You are sucking up the time of people here. Please do actually read the essay instead of just mocking my mistake. Jytdog (talk) 00:18, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- There are many aspects to this AN/I. I was seeking to stop attacks on myself and address an editor feeling harrassed and stalked. Guy has expanded the range. Are you advising that it is better to just let things slide and not respond, not fill in missing pieces, not bring elements of my concerns about user conduct here, not ask your reason for your view, "the PSCI DS yet for abuse of BLP to to POV-push PSCI and for
WP:Civil POV-pushingWP:Civil POV pushing at the Martin article and the OPV AIDS hypothesis article."? - This approach is not consistent with Guy telling me that the burden of proof is on me. SmithBlue (talk) 01:04, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Jytdog: I'm not sure but I interpret your stamemnt re mocking to reference my cutting and pasting a mis-formatted WP essay. If this is correct your interpretation is incorrect. i was just using the quickest cut and paste available.
What would it take to change your views around, "PSCI DS yet for abuse of BLP to to POV-push PSCI and for WP:Civil POV-pushingWP:Civil POV pushing at the Martin article and the OPV AIDS hypothesis article." Are there specific edits that are of great concern? Or is it Guy's authority combined with my having ever editted OPV-AIDS and BLP:Brian Martin. Or some other factors. Whatever it is, are you prepared to investigate further? SmithBlue (talk) 03:45, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have investigated further, and you are absolutely POV-pushing on one side of this issue. Your edits reflect advocacy, as does your behavior on this board. And you were absolutely mocking me instead of reading the essay and considering your behavior in light of it, which is what a thoughtful editor who is not POV-pushing would do. Jytdog (talk) 19:26, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
SmithBlue & "push fringe content" - the claims and the reality
Guy, to evidence his claim that I, SmithBlue, am pushing fringe content, provides the following cites."Example edits: [51], [52], [53]." Let us examine them:
- [54] I provide the source details for a book written by the subject that is already in the article. And, in an BLP, add a short description of a scientific paper that the subject co-authored.
- [55] I change section heading from "Oral polio vaccine hypothesis (disproven conjecture)" to "=== Oral polio vaccine hypothesis (rejected) ===". This is line with Nature[56]. And Guy's own use of "rejected" on this page. (see:The Real Problem:Addendum)
- [57] I suggest that all editors work first in the areas of agreement and list a relevant scientifically published paper that I am working on. I then point out that suppression of dissent material is also relevant. This suppression material is scientifically published and focussed on as part of the history of OPV-AIDS in a 2015 textbook, "Tools for Critical Thinking in Biology - Stephen H. Jenkins". Guy has raised no objections to the use of this tertiary source on BLP Brain Martin.
Guy has mis-categorised my edits. SmithBlue (talk) 20:56, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- You list "a relevant scientifically published paper that I am working on"? That sounds a lot like a WP:COI. Do you actually mean that you are here to use Wikipedia as a pre-print for something that you are working on and have not yet published? Guy (Help!) 00:18, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Please read the actual edit in context if you have any doubts. From memory the 2008 edit contains a reference to the 2001 Lincei paper that I was working on. If so then it would be unlikely that "I am working on" would refer to a paper I am writing. SmithBlue (talk) 00:48, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Guy's edit that created multiple BLP vios
BLP Policy: "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous."
- [58] The majority of the material Guy added here fails WP:Verify. As does his addition of "Category:Anti-vaccination"
With Guy's illustrious WP history, the idea that Guy was unaware that the material failed WP:Verify must be rejected out of hand. Deliberately action against BLP policy is not about content, it is about conduct. Here we have Guy acting to knowlingly violate BLP policy. SmithBlue (talk) 21:22, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- What we actually see is more evidence of your standard behaviour: throwing dung in all directions hoping to drive off those who disagree with you. The past content of the article does not matter at all, because the people who have been editing it - even those who originally made it a borderline hagiography - have worked together pretty harmoniously. Stuff goes in, it comes out, it gets discussed, it might get modified, it might stay out - and it's all dealt with really rather calmly, with one exception: you. Look how many comments you've added here and at the talk page - and how little else you have done in the short while since your returned from hiatus. You are a bore. Accept consensus and shut up. Guy (Help!) 22:46, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Thanks Guy. Wikipedia consensus is enshrined in it's policies. You have acted to deliberately flout BLP policy. If you see BLP policy as not reflecting WP community consensus then please take your gripes to the appropriate forum and work to improve policy. Do not pretend to have consensus behind you on this matter. By doing so you continue to promote the violation of BLP policy. SmithBlue (talk) 23:00, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- This is the admin noticeboard, you are publicly accusing an admin of deliberately flouting a very important policy. Before you persist in this line of attack you probably need to be aware of a couple of things: first, I was defending controversial BLPs before that policy even existed, and was bitterly attacked off-wiki as a result; second, I wrote the standard advice given to biography subjects when they email the Wikimedia Foundation. You need to be extremely careful that you have solid evidence that my edits were deliberately flouting policy and not good faith edits based on my reading of sources, on the interpretation of which reasonable people may differ. Remember, on Wikipedia you are allowed to be wrong. What you are not allowed to do is to continue asserting you are right, even when everyone else keeps telling you that you are wrong (see WP:IDHT). The burden of proof here lies with you. So far you have given an excellent demonstration of assuming bad faith, but that's all. Guy (Help!) 00:12, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Guy: Please remember that, although you are an admin, here on this AN/I, your editing is under exactly the same scrutiny as mine. The burden is on you to address your many user conducts failing that I have listed here. SmithBlue (talk) 00:52, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Guy, given that you have deliberately changed edits of mine and by doing so showed that you are an unabashed liar, I would not be in the least bit surprised if you have flouted other areas of WP policy. DrChrissy (talk) 00:59, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- User:DrChrissy. User:Jytdog and User:JzG etc. I think this thread has lost track from its initial complaint of SmithBlue reporting SmithBlue for misbehaviour. The only notification regards this thread was that SmithBlue was making a report/complaint on my behalf about his harassment of me (go figure!!!), the rest is fill. Now I never authorized such nor will I take part, nor will I communicate with him for obvious reasons. The rest of this is all SmithBlue throwing mud everywhere and not going through proper channels. All I know is that SmithBlue came back to WP using his secondary IP account admitting he has tried "Disruptive Editing but got nowhere." It is obvious he is here to disrupt and I have better things to do that involve myself in an editor who harasses then reports themself on the victims behalf simply so he can "get another piece of me". As suggested above by another a 48hr ban on SmithBlue, which I thing is way too kind considering SmithBlue's disruptive agenda. He's never going to give up his compulsion to disrupt. I have nothing else to say here on this page, Bye. Gongwool (talk) 03:05, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Guy, given that you have deliberately changed edits of mine and by doing so showed that you are an unabashed liar, I would not be in the least bit surprised if you have flouted other areas of WP policy. DrChrissy (talk) 00:59, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Let's sum it up to this point
(1) DrChrissy's claim that Guy is an "unabashed liar" is an unabashed WP:NPA. A block is appropriate. Please consider DrC's block log and current topic bans when determining the appropriate length of the block.
(2) SmithBlue's repeated WP:IDHT behavior is classic WP:TENDENTIOUS EDITING, and that, along with his own WP:NPA towards Guy, is also deserving of a block. We cannot allow ourselves to be placed in a position were people who are doing their damnedest to protect the encyclopedia from fringe bullshit are not supported in their efforts. Our credibility and accuracy are at stake.
(3) Would someone uninvolved - admin or not - with an ounce of common sense please close this god-forsaken thread, or are we going to allow SmithBlue to have as much space on AN/I as he desires in the process of hanging himself? Shut it down, please. BMK (talk) 07:24, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- I haven't been involved in this discussion, in spite of my involvement in the article, as during the last week I've been almost completely without internet access. But I think it should be remembered that the Brian Martin (social scientist) article did suffer from serious BLP problems until quite recently. Those problems were repeatedly identified by IPs, SmithBlue and others on multiple locations, and not acted on. This isn't a simple case of a tendentious editor pushing a fringe theory, but editors banging their heads against a wall trying to get significant BLP issues fixed and not being heard. The thing is, of course, that the problem is now much reduced and is far more manageable, (although not yet completely fixed). I'm not sure what the correct response is, but I would like to see SmithBlue and others put down the stick and tone things back, as the noise was needed before, but it is counter productive now. If a short block is needed to give that time to happen, so be it, but if something short of a block will do the same I'd rather go in that direction. - Bilby (talk) 20:49, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- No that's not correct Bilby, SmithBlue is only interested in OPV-AIDS fringe theory battles with that and the other article, not general work as others have been doing. To infer SmithBlue is contributing or trying to make articles accurate (as opposed to disrupting) is very misleading, as the above threads due to him here attest to. The Brian Martin, OPV-AIDS theory and the Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents pages are where he has caused most disruption. Gongwool (talk) 21:38, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- I find that comment odd, as you have also only been interested in OPV-AIDS articles and the Wilyman PhD as well. If the intent is to claim that SmithBlue's focus makes their efforts disruptive, then the same can certainly be said of others involved in this.
- My concern is that there were serious problems with the Wilyman-related articles, that we, as a community, only addressed because editors continued to raise them. It is understandable that those editors who weren't being listened to before are still trying too hard to be heard. I certainly agree that they need to step back, but the goal should be seeing if that can be managed through a means short of blocking, or, if not, short of an indef block. The circumstances here are more complex than they are being interpreted. - Bilby (talk) 21:56, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- No that's not correct Bilby, SmithBlue is only interested in OPV-AIDS fringe theory battles with that and the other article, not general work as others have been doing. To infer SmithBlue is contributing or trying to make articles accurate (as opposed to disrupting) is very misleading, as the above threads due to him here attest to. The Brian Martin, OPV-AIDS theory and the Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents pages are where he has caused most disruption. Gongwool (talk) 21:38, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
From my point of view much of this AN/I is Shooting The Messenger.
Guy's misportrayal of me a fringe content pusher seems to remain the understanding of many of the admins.
I am treated as a problem rather than thanked for my time consuming work in getting multiple on-going BLP violations addressed. This has not been a pleasant task.
I remain concerned that the mud thrown my way will, in the eyes of some, stick. I would find this AN/I much easier if admins were to ask me more questions and would not frame their replies to me in terms that I consider inaccurate portrayals.
As long as Bilby is continuing to remove the on-going BLP violations from Brian Martin I will ignore BLP policy, that states BLP violations must be removed immediately, and not edit on WP:Brian Martin. (Editing on any WP article is currently as attractive as hitting my finger with a hammer).
Does Biby advise me that holding off posting further analysis of Guy's edits around WP:Brian Martin will deepen the understandings reached by this AN/I?
I am quite prepared to step back voluntarily and let the waters of this AN/I settle. What timeframe is suggested? SmithBlue (talk) 23:13, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- When the messenger is simply a neutral communication channel, shooting them is, indeed, counter-productive. But when the messenger is an integral part of the problem being reported, and they are skewing the message in a way that supports their own position while denigrating and misrepresenting the positions of others, then "shooting the messenger" makes a lot of sense. Lcok & load, ladies and gentlemen. BMK (talk) 00:03, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- Especially when at the time of filing (and possibly still now) the "messenger" has absolutely nothing in their history for months other than one single issue. Guy (Help!) 00:55, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- With respect, the reports are being skewed on both sides. If we were stupid enough to focus on the drama there would be a lot of blame to go around, for all of the parties. - Bilby (talk) 02:37, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- I want to thank Guy & BMK for bringing an issue into focus. If, during my voluntary step-back, I find I am inaccurately portrayed, or false or misleading claims relevant to me are made on this ANI, what can be put in place to ensure that I am not disadvantaged by my voluntary absence? A satisfactory answer to this and a timeframe that I can agree to is all that is necessary now to facilitate this step-back.SmithBlue (talk) 02:18, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- Read WP:OWN. Nobody owes you nuttin'. BMK (talk) 02:29, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- The top priority is that we fix the problems, not that we assign blame. I expect here our focus should be on how to improve the problem, or how to maintain the current direction the article has been heading in. I can't speak for others, but from my perspective we all need to tone back on the rhetoric, write with less heat (by which I also include comments about Martin), and just focus on improving the article. :) If we can close this, and get back to working on the articles, it would be a nice step forward. I don't know what else is required, but we'll see. - Bilby (talk) 02:37, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- Bilby, I currently have a large target daubed on me by Guy. It reads "pushes fringe content". Multiple admins on this ANI have been convinced by Guy's presentation. I am not clear that this is best ignored or can be avoided. SmithBlue (talk) 02:46, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- The top priority is that we fix the problems, not that we assign blame. I expect here our focus should be on how to improve the problem, or how to maintain the current direction the article has been heading in. I can't speak for others, but from my perspective we all need to tone back on the rhetoric, write with less heat (by which I also include comments about Martin), and just focus on improving the article. :) If we can close this, and get back to working on the articles, it would be a nice step forward. I don't know what else is required, but we'll see. - Bilby (talk) 02:37, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- Read WP:OWN. Nobody owes you nuttin'. BMK (talk) 02:29, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- I want to thank Guy & BMK for bringing an issue into focus. If, during my voluntary step-back, I find I am inaccurately portrayed, or false or misleading claims relevant to me are made on this ANI, what can be put in place to ensure that I am not disadvantaged by my voluntary absence? A satisfactory answer to this and a timeframe that I can agree to is all that is necessary now to facilitate this step-back.SmithBlue (talk) 02:18, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- When the messenger is simply a neutral communication channel, shooting them is, indeed, counter-productive. But when the messenger is an integral part of the problem being reported, and they are skewing the message in a way that supports their own position while denigrating and misrepresenting the positions of others, then "shooting the messenger" makes a lot of sense. Lcok & load, ladies and gentlemen. BMK (talk) 00:03, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
@Bilby: Sorry, what problem are we supposed to fix? The nebulous and poorly articulated problem with our characterisation of the bogus OPV AIDS conjecture, as purportedly identified by SmithBlue? There's no evidence of an actual problem there. The article on Martin is actively edited and the involvement of editors with differing perspectives on the legitimacy of his work has, as is often the case with Wikipedia, resulted in a much tighter and more robustly sourced article - there's no evident problem to fix there, either. The only problem I have identified at this point, apart from the fact that SmithBlue is on a mission, is the article on Edward Hooper (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), which appears to be a WP:COATRACK, so I have sent it to AfD. Guy (Help!) 09:00, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
SmithBlue's edits on BLP:Brian Martin:Talk
I (SmithBlue), have edited on Brian Martin Talk page. My edits there have been mis-portrayed by Guy, Gongwool, and other admins on this ANI, as POV-pushing and "pushing fringe content".
I reject these claims as ill-founded.
My edits on BLP:Brian Martin:Talk fit into 3 categories. 1. NPOV-pushing. (Yes that is Neutral POV pushing.) 2. Addressing user conduct. (I now see this was a mistake.) 3. Housekeeping: addressing CoI claims & attacks on myself.
In chronological order
- [[59]] Flag three BLP vios and seek discussion on Talk. NPOV-pushing
- [[60]] Add link on Martin's website to Bilby's existing OPV-AIDS section. Argue that basing "Martin supports OPV-AIDS" claim on link is unencyclopedic. NPOV-pushing
- [[61]] Respond to Woolgong's statement of agenda. Indicate support for that which is RS based only. (Article has recent history of repeatedly failing Verify) addressing user conduct
- [[62]] Add support to change from (professor) to (social scientist). Point out effect. NPOV-pushing
- [[63]] Respond to CoI claim. Reply to attack.
- [[64]] Point out that pattern of repeated BLP vios and defense thereof is flouting of community standards. addressing user conduct
- [[65]] In response to criticism for removing BLP vio I point out BLP policy: remove immediately. addressing user conduct
- [[66]] In response to a section devoted to discussing personal negative opinions of BLP subject I point out conflict of negative opinion swapping with NPOV, Verify and RS. And ask that such discussions be held elsewhere. A previous form of Gongwools' negative opinion on BLP:Brian Martin[[67]]. addressing user conduct
- [[68]] A change of reference details from possibilly correct to defininately inaccurate by Gongwool. In light of recent multiple BLP vios that failed Verify I request confirmation of content and explanation of change to inaccurate reference. NPOV-pushing
- [[69]]Ask admin to address DE on BLp. addressing user conduct
- [[70]]Address fantasy of Gongwool that I want to have negative Verify, Rs, Weight material removed from BLP. Reply to attack
- [[71]]Address attack and fantasy about my goals. Reply to attack
- [[72]] Correct Gongwool's twisting of meaning of my edit. Request confirmation of Verify. addressing user conduct
- [[73]]Start new section stating support for Gongwool's reading of "Tools for critical thinking in biology" that martin has been criticised for his support of OPV-AIDS. Point out Jenkins characterises those who still support OPV-AIDS as "a few die-hards". NPOV-pushing
- [[74]] I reject Guy's misrepresentation of my edits around OPV-AIDS.Reply to attack
- [[75]] I confirm that Gongwool is correct on OPV-AIDS related criticism of MArtin. And request explanation for Gongwool's intro of inaccuracy into a formerly correct cite. addressing user conduct
- [[76]] I clarify the exact inaccuracies Gongwool has introduced into cite. addressing user conduct
- [[77]] I argue that the presentation of OPV-AIDS as merely "unproven" is far too weak. Suggest "refuted" or "convincingly disproven" as alternatives. NPOV-pushing
- [[78]] Reply to attack by Gongwool, congratulate Gongwool on Jenkins "Tools for" reference discovery. addressing user conduct
- [[79]] improve wording of [[80]] NPOV-pushing
- [[81]] edit to show support for Gongwool's current use of source that criticises Martin re OPV-AIDS. NPOV-pushing
- [[82]] Edit to reject guy's portrayal of "fringe pushing" <<A very poor edit. Previous version of rejection was absolutely fine>> Reply to attack
- [[83]] Criticise Guy's opaque comm style. Raise issue of Guy's pro-vaccine feelings disturbing his editing and admining. Promote Verify and RS. addressing user conduct
- [[84]] Start section in which to discuss "Weight of OPV-AIDS criticism" NPOV-pushing
- [[85]] Express support for change to "Martin is known as one of the supporters of the "convincingly disproven" or "refuted" re:OPV-AIDS NPOV-pushing
- [[86]] Suggest change to date range for Martin's support of OPV-AIDS. NPOV-pushing
- [[87]] New section: show risk that source claiming current views of OPV-AIDS is open to claims of bias. NPOV-pushing
- [[88]] New section: point out BLP vio edit by Gongwool fails RS. NPOV-pushing addressing user conduct
- [[89]] Suggest to Gongwool that refusal to engage to reach consensus is DE. Suggest that Gongwool seek guidance from Guy around requirements for BLPs. addressing user conduct
Any continuation of claims, that my edits on Brian Martin:Talk detailed above constitute POV-pushing or "fringe content pushing", where those claims do not raise specific edits and present reasoned argument for them being POV-pushing or "fringe content pushing", can only be seen as a insistence on mis-portrayal. SmithBlue (talk) 23:51, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- Christ on a bike, have you not yet realised? the horse is dead. Find something productive to do. And do be aware that adding your interpretation of your edits in italics does not confer any validity on that interpretation. In fact, it invites closer scrutiny and active challenge, because it implies that you are setting yourself up as arbiter of neutrality.
- Oh yes? Remember your first edit in 2016? [90]
- "Brian Martin professor" BLP, DR ongoing
- Brian Martin (professor) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Had no access to account so put in BLPN 4 Feb 2015
- Inaccurate denigrating material remains 5 days later. Have not ID'd editors involved.
- 4 instances of misrepresentation of source contents found and then I stopped counting.
- Maybe this time adminstrators can come through on serial inaccurate material in a BLP? Though I thought a BLPN would get some involvement already. But what do I know how this place actually works? Good luck and edit safely. SmithBlue (talk) 05:03, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
- That was your first logged-in edit since June 4 2011. Over four and a half years. Just at a time when the anti-vax crankosphere is working itself into a fine lather about the widespread criticism of Wilyman's PhD and Martin's role in it, you pile in with an anti-vax crank website's commentary on our coverage of the OPV-AIDS conjecture. Can you see why that's a it fishy?
- Let me remind you of the first of your 53 talk page edits since the beginning of this month, the one which, as it happens, rang alarm bells for me:
- Outside review of article lede
- Some editors here might be interested in an outside review of the first 2 paragraphs of this article's lede.
- Short version "Many factual errors are squeezed into these few words."
- Find the long version 1/3 the way down the page at [1]
Good luck and edit safely. SmithBlue (talk) 05:14, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
- The source you are proferring is GreenMedInfo, one of many crank websites with a long and inglorious history of promoting anti-vaccination bullshit. Their commentary on our article is of absolutely no value, of course. But isn't it odd that you return form a years-long hiatus pushing commentary form an anti-vax blog that just happens to have published, shortly beforehand, an article spruiking the OPV AIDS conjecture and bigging up martin's "suppression" narrative. Again, this may all be perfectly innocent, but I am sure you can see why it sets off alarm bells. Antivaxers are, after all, dangerous and determined nutters.
- Your next Talk edit, just over a month later:
- Martin, has since August 2015, added a link to a non-academically published paper that states, "The case study examines the creation of unreasonable public certainty about an unresolved scientific dispute", in its abstract. http://www.bmartin.cc/dissent/documents/AIDS/Dildine15.pdf
- Martin's 2010 article can be found at http://www.bmartin.cc/dissent/documents/AIDS/
- The 2010 paper does in my reading provide any evidence of Martin promoting OPV-AIDS as the correct explanation of AIDS' origins. However Martin examines and critiques the actions of the opponents of the OPV theory. Misinterpreting this as "Martin supports OPV-AIDS" is unencyclopedic. SmithBlue (talk) 01:40, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- In fact, this article by Martin absolutely does suggest that he believes debate on the OPV AIDS conjecture is being suppressed - for example: "Scientists have spent a lot of effort trying to refute the polio-vaccine theory of the origin of AIDS, but very little trying to refute the conventional view, that blood from an SIV-infected chimpanzee got into humans via hunting or eating. There is very little direct evidence to support the conventional view, which explains neither the timing nor the location of the origin." This is a profound misunderstanding of the workings of science. The SIV hypothesis stands because it has passed the kinds of tests that the OPV conjecture failed, and because its authors reacted to critical commentary by producing better evidence, not by denial and going to the non-scientific press with a narrative f conspiracy, which is what proponents of the OPV conjecture did. The SIV hypothesis has been successfully defended in the peer-reviewed literature, and - crucially - if it failed the kinds of analysis that the OPV conjecture failed, then it too would be rejected. As with all scientific findings, it is provisional, and based on the best evidence we have to hand. The OPV conjecture has been proven, quite convincingly, to be false. And its continued promotion by anti-vax activists presents an active public health danger.
- And this is completely in line with what the sources clearly show to be Martin's tendency to give greater weight to purported whistleblowers than the merits of their claims actually deserves. He is, as it were, seeing reds under every bed. He lacks the scientific background to understand just how convincing the refutation of the OPV conjecture is, and it is not a stretch to consider that the article you cited is indeed an attempt to stand it up with parity to the SIV hypothesis, which has been confirmed by multiple independent lines of inquiry (the OPV conjecture has a single source and, as far as I can tell, no parallel discovery at all, which is extremely unusual for valid scientific advances).
- Sticking within Tal space, two edits later you say:
- Providing "more authority to his critiques of social processes such as science" is a double error: First, providing more authority has absolutely nothing to do with Wikipedias mission, especially when people are promoting obvious bollocks, as Martin has with Wilyman's PhD. Second, a social scientist is not a scientist, as such, and social science has little of value to say about the process of hard scientific inquiry. Rather the opposite, as Alan Sokal memorably demonstrated.
- Your next Talk space edit:
- Did EvergreenFir decide that an east Australian IP is sufficient evidence of a CoI? I have no CoI and aim for NPOV.
That I have tried for the last 6 weeks to bring attention to the multiple BLP vios in article should be celebrated by any editor seeking to improve WP.
- Addressing Gongwool's fantasies about my goals for this article - I will be satisfied if the article is based on accurate representations of reliable sources. I am unimpressed by the other claims and positions taken by Gongwool. They appear likely to function as disprutors of editing.SmithBlue (talk) 02:20, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Hubris, much? In "six weeks" of attempts to bring "NPOV" tot his article, you amassed exactly three previous talk page edits on the article. Instead, your efforts centred on canvassing users Nil Einne, Coppertwig and Seabreezes1. Your comments on the Talk page in this time are long on innuendo and short on usable sources.
- So, your cherry-picked selection of your edits, and your glowing interpretation of the merits of your own input, do not, I think, tell the whole story. Your implicit assertion that there can be no legitimate criticism of your edits, does not stand up. You exhibit a strong POV and you have returned after a long hiatus in extremely combative mood to fight a battle that is not Wikipedia's. We recognise the scientific consensus view that the OPV-AIDS hypothesis is nonsense, and that Martin's continued support for it is emblematic of a systematic failure to properly challenge his own bias towards those he perceives as whistleblowers. That's what the sources show, in as much as they pay him any attention at all. Guy (Help!) 01:35, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Someone is proposing a community ban
Discussion here with examples provided: [91]. Long story short, User:LightandDark2000 appears to be well versed in Wikipedia rules enough to defend himself lawyer style by insisting he acts in good faith and shouldn't be harassed or punitively blocked, but still refuses to engage users' criticism of his editing style. Criticisms include stretching ambiguous sources to support his edits, reverting sourced edits then not undoing that when corrected despite the restriction posed on us by the 1RR, and only engaging in minimal discussion whenever we try to bring up the topic. As I said in the discussion, this dispute dates back to at least June: [92].
Note this module is subject to WP:GS/SCW&ISIL and a 1RR. As I proposed in that discussion, letting an administrator talk to him may be more effective since he doesn't listen to us. NightShadeAEB (talk) 15:28, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Community ban discussions belong at AN, not on an article talk page. It certainly does seem that this editor is tendentious. The block log is longer than my arm. Katietalk 16:39, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Wouldn't CB discussions be at WP:ANI (here)? WP:AN is mostly more esoteric admin notices, and isn't what "the community" rather, the subset of the community with any stomach for these discussions) pays much attention to. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:38, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- While AN is the better place for these things, it usually gets decided on ANI anyway. Everything happens on ANI. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 23:15, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Wouldn't CB discussions be at WP:ANI (here)? WP:AN is mostly more esoteric admin notices, and isn't what "the community" rather, the subset of the community with any stomach for these discussions) pays much attention to. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:38, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Regardless as to whether or not ANI is the proper venue for discussing community bans, I have placed a hat on the discussion on the talk page, redirecting users to this thread. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 23:46, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- I recently requested to get a topic ban lifted on WP:ANI only to be told toward the end when it was clear it would not be lifted that I should have made the request at WP:AN. While it is clear the article talk page is not the correct place for discussion of bans, we need clearer instructions for editors on where is the correct place. DrChrissy (talk) 23:54, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Regardless as to whether or not ANI is the proper venue for discussing community bans, I have placed a hat on the discussion on the talk page, redirecting users to this thread. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 23:46, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
As much fun as it is to watch old 'friends' get back together, this isn't the place. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 19:41, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
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@Voidwalker: You're a spoilsport, but I'll be good. <g> BMK (talk) 23:56, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
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The problem is deeper and more persistent than the above seems to indicate. User:LightandDark2000 is a POV pusher who has been a very disruptive editor for a long time on the Syria module. His bad faith, bad source edits that broke long established consensus has turned all editors against him. You can read entire sections of complaints about him on the talk pages: Talk:Cities and towns during the Syrian Civil War#I propose community ban on user:LightandDark2000 editing Syria- and Iraq-related maps, Talk:Cities and towns during the Syrian Civil War/Archive 50#LightandDark2000, Talk:Cities and towns during the Syrian Civil War#Bad Edit: Raqqa Frontline and Module talk:Iraqi insurgency detailed map/Archive 4#User:LightandDark2000.
He has a habit of deleting complaint messages from his own talk page so that it would not reveal who he really is. Take a look at the history of edits of his talk page and you will discover dozens and dozens of deleted complaint messages from just the last year. Let me illustrate his general attitude by giving as an example, his latest "deletion". A user in good faith writes to him: "Your source: http://en.ypgnews.tk/2016/03/15/anti-is-forces-close-in-on-groups-raqqa-hq.html is a dead link. Please provide another source." You can verify that the link is indeed a dead link since it just leads you to the "main page" of the website (en.ypgnews.com). User:LightandDark2000 deletes the message with the edit summary: "It is not a dead link. Fix your computer." You can even see that in this same edit, he increments his "vandalism counter" ({{User:UBX/vandalized|47}}) by 1, implying that the user's message on his talk page, was vandalism!
Also there was a report about him at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive904#User:LightandDark2000 intentionally misinterpret sources for editing Cities and towns during the Syrian Civil War and similar pages where he was blocked for one month. The mess he creates regularly takes time to be cleaned. He injects in the map his POV pushing and total disregard for other editors’ opinions, sources and established consensus & rules. He has done nothing but make the map wrong with his POV pushing & unresponsive behavior towards other editors. I am asking for him to be permanently banned from Module:Syrian Civil War detailed map. Tradediatalk 17:33, 19 March 2016 (UTC) @bot: do not archive yet. 12:04, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have noticed that almost every single feed in the links provided are run/dominated by users that hate me. I see this, as well as this entire proposal, as unfairly biased. You cannot proposal a ban, or a block, just because someone has made a number of mistakes (in good faith, I might add). By the way, a permanent ban is unnecessary overkill (See WP:PUNITIVE). I have never tried to "ruin the map" or "vandalize", or "force my own point of view", I only tried to edit honestly according to the rules of Wikipedia, and recently, the localized rules added in in the sanctions. It's true that I have made mistakes. But everyone made mistakes, and I have always tried to correct my mistakes when I realized that I had made some, or at least brought it to discussion. Blocks and sanctions are not meant to be punitive either, so I can't see how this proposal (especially given the bias of the user who originally proposed it) has any legitimacy as well. If we were to follow this line of logic, every one of the users who has been complaining/pushing for me to be "permanently banned" should be banned as well. Not only have I been harassed on the Syria module talk, but I have also been attacked by a couple of users on the talk page, as you can see here. Why should I be banned when I am editing out of good faith, have absolutely no intention of disrupting or vandalizing the map, and there are also a number of users I get along with quite well on the module/article in question. By the way, there are a number of users (including some of those pushing for this ban) who have committed much more "POV" edits than those I have allegedly or unintentionally done (some of the mhave also engaged in serious cases of edit warring in the past few months). The users that are biased against be are currently dominating this discussion, and they are ganging up om me in an attempt to kick me off the module; I feel like I am being harassed through this proposal. Also, this "good faith" editor 2601:C7:8301:8D74:1DB4:BFDC:1999:782E that Tradedia cited is actually a WP:SOCKPUPPET of User:Pbfreespace3, where there is an ongoing SPI investigation regarding his active user of sockpuppets to cirvumvent his block. The fact that such biased users were cited as "good examples," including a sockpuppet, astonishes me and makes me question the very purpose of this proposal. I strongly believe that the users pushing for this ban want to ban me out of annoyance and punitive motives, not because of any good faith. I have also noticed that the vast majority of users who commented in the recent ban proposal (including the original proposal on the Syria module talk) are the users who are biased against me, so please note this carefully. And pertaining to the Syria module talk, a user there said, "I wouldn't go so far as to ban him..." and another said that "I think that not need a ban for editor user:LightandDark2000 he sometimes made mistakes but he said that he will no longer break the rules so I think do not need to judge him so severely. Each of us can make a mistake but it is always necessary to give a chance to mend..." If we were to ban or block a user every time they made a mistake on these "hot/contested topic" areas, we would hardly have any editors left to edit articles in any of those errors. Therefore, in light of the circumstances and the people involved in this proposal, I believe that this ban proposal should be declined. LightandDark2000 (talk) 07:38, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- I will respond to the main points of your defense paragraph:
- You say: “almost every single feed in the links provided are run/dominated by users that hate me.” I have counted a total of 16 different users on these feeds. So that’s a lot of “haters”! The relevant question is why a lot of these users “hate” you? Did it occur to you that this is because of your edits and attitude?
- You mention the important notion of assuming “good faith”. However after a while, the assumption of good faith can be completely obliterated by months and months of watching you make dishonest edit after dishonest edit.
- You invoke WP:PUNITIVE. However, you have to realize that the ban is not being requested to punish you, but rather to protect the map from your damaging edits that make it wrong and ruin its reputation, therefore spoiling the hard work of many honest editors.
- You claim that you have been “harassed” and “attacked”. However, users criticizing your edits should not be viewed as harassment or personal attacks. These users have nothing against you as a person. They have a problem with your edits. Instead of feeling like you have been victimized, you should instead ask yourself the question of why there is so much negativity around you. Opening a section discussing your bad edits and attitude is legitimate because they harm the encyclopedia, even if the venue should have been ANI instead of the module’s talk page.
- You mention that “there are a number of users (including some of those pushing for this ban) who have committed much more POV edits” than you. Other users behaving badly is not a valid excuse. If someone is breaking Wikipedia policy, then you should report them, as I have done myself this week, and this has resulted in blocks.
- Your bringing up accusations of sockpuppetry is really beside the point. Whether the IP is a sockpuppet or not is a matter to be determined at SPI. What is in focus here is your behavior and your general attitude in responding to valid questions. As your history of edits shows, you also respond the same way to users you do not accuse of sockpuppetry.
- You mention that “a user said, "I wouldn't go so far as to ban him..." However, this is the same user who subsequently opened this section here at ANI. So he must have changed his mind given your continued unresponsiveness… I think that your reaction to the latest section about you on the module’s talk page has been very disappointing to many users who feel that this is now a hopeless case. Tradediatalk 11:50, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- I will respond to the main points of your defense paragraph:
- I did not know that he was banned before for the same issue, which is why I did not support a ban. I still don't, I'd rather a moderator gives him a clear warning that if his behaviour persists, he'd see a topic ban or block. To be fair I was gonna bring up the vandalism counter myself, but after reading this discussion[93] of the sockpuppetry investigation I realized it had a good explanation. The rest of the deletions do not, however. I brought this to ANI because I wasn't aware of what the protocol is for someone proposing a ban in a talk page, but it was clear there was a dispute and I figured an admin would be listened to by the user, since he doesn't listen to anyone else.
- User:LightandDark2000 I keep repeating this every time, the biggest issue is your unresponsiveness to discussion. All of us regular contributors regularly engage each other in thorough discussion whenever a controversy emerges, you don't. I don't want to project onto your intentions, but your extensive use of Wikipedia policy links to defend yourself shows me that you are completely aware of what type of community Wikipedia is supposed to be, and this makes the assumption of good faith really hard to maintain. It's true users lose patience and regrettably resort to frustrated outbursts, but that does not erase the original criticism that you seek to ignore.
- It is very hard to defend you considering this has been ongoing for a year. If you wish to avoid being blocked, as there appear to be growing calls for that, this is the right moment to show you understand what's wrong and pledge to right it. NightShadeAEB (talk) 13:21, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- And I must add, your claim that people are only criticizing you because they hate you personally is a sign of WP:CABALS and WP:MPOV. The ban proposals aren't to punish you, but to prevent disruptions to the map. You must focus on how disruptions can be prevented rather than on how it's unfair to you as a person. NightShadeAEB (talk) 13:37, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Enough, I suggest that (although I will probably insert random horrible thing here just for being the one to suggest it) User:LightandDark2000 receive a indefinite ban from Module:Syrian Civil War detailed map, due to repeated irresponsible editing as described above. Happy_Attack_Dog (Throw Me a Bone) 16:32, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Proposing a community ban for 166.137.105.84
He is constantly vandalizing the same pages that a previous IP was blocked for vandalizing and for block evasion. He continues after I have warned him many, many times. Jdcomix (talk) 17:13, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Jdcomix - This IP has no block log. Why are we jumping straight to a community ban instead of using AIV to report vandalism and have the IP blocked? ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 18:37, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- FWIW, this appears to be long term abuse as documented here: User:NinjaRobotPirate/Animation hoaxer. -- Ed (Edgar181) 18:45, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Very fast and prolific vandal, multitudinously warned. Blocked for 72 hours. Thank you for reporting, Jdcomix. It is true that AIV is usually faster and better for vandalism reports. Bishonen | talk 18:46, 18 March 2016 (UTC).
- (edit conflict)This is an LTA abuser, being tracked by multiple editors for the last two months. Details can be found at here, as a copycat of the Animation Hoaxer. Dozens of insertions of deliberate factual errors every day or two, so far a dozen IP's have been collected. An experienced admin should consider a range block. Scr★pIronIV 18:47, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- I did consider it, ScrapIronIV, but this IP isn't related to any of the others listed by NinjaRobotPirate. Bishonen | talk 18:52, 18 March 2016 (UTC).
- Thank you, Bishonen. I hadn't geolocated the IP, because I have become so familiar with the behavior. All the numbers look the same after a while... This type of vandalism particularly tough to deal with, because those who perform it also insert false information into supporting articles. Scr★pIronIV 19:01, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Unfortunately they seem to be well at home among the proxies. It doesn't exactly take any skill nowadays. :-( I guess whac-a-mole is all we can do, until such time as Wikipedia starts requiring registration. Bishonen | talk 19:07, 18 March 2016 (UTC).
- Yeah, this looks like the US-based copycat. The geolocation is wrong (New York instead of Texas), but everything else is the same, including the ISP. It could be that AT&T Wireless doesn't have a stable geolocation for customers. I hope it's not a third vandal. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:12, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- This range (the 166.* range) seems to be a magnet to vandals. Site banned no less. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 23:28, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah, this looks like the US-based copycat. The geolocation is wrong (New York instead of Texas), but everything else is the same, including the ISP. It could be that AT&T Wireless doesn't have a stable geolocation for customers. I hope it's not a third vandal. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:12, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Unfortunately they seem to be well at home among the proxies. It doesn't exactly take any skill nowadays. :-( I guess whac-a-mole is all we can do, until such time as Wikipedia starts requiring registration. Bishonen | talk 19:07, 18 March 2016 (UTC).
- Thank you, Bishonen. I hadn't geolocated the IP, because I have become so familiar with the behavior. All the numbers look the same after a while... This type of vandalism particularly tough to deal with, because those who perform it also insert false information into supporting articles. Scr★pIronIV 19:01, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- I did consider it, ScrapIronIV, but this IP isn't related to any of the others listed by NinjaRobotPirate. Bishonen | talk 18:52, 18 March 2016 (UTC).
I just filed another report for 166.137.105.22 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) at WP:AIV, but it's looking a bit backlogged. This is the same vandalism from the same narrow IP range. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:00, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Well, that provides a nice little range. I've blocked 166.137.105.0/24 for two weeks. Bishonen | talk 19:58, 21 March 2016 (UTC).
- If you liked that, you'll love this. Check out 2602:30A:2C95:6B0::/64. There's very similar vandalism in the form of hoax casting to children's animated films, especially The Rugrats Movie and Rugrats Go Wild. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 01:27, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Disruptive editing by User:Spirit Ethanol
The user-in-question launched an Rfc on 12 February 2016 (concerning this article) without seeking local consensus beforehand (according to WP:RFC, this should have been protocol). He then proceeded to mislead other editors into believing that Palestine was somehow displayed as a "substate of Israel", a nonsense accusation that has gained significant traction and eventually this deception proved successful. The understandable majority of Rfc contributors supported separating Palestine from underneath the Israel entry due to the absurd insinuation and premise that the former is displayed as a part of the latter state; this is entirely untrue—see here for more details. I have tried time and time again to convince other editors that the Rfc was indeed biased, misleading and indeed illegitimate—due to the reasons that have been aforementioned—although my attempts to enlighten have rendered almost unheard and subsequently dismissed. In my opinion, I honestly believe that this bull-in-a-china-shop approach on SE's part is unwelcome and unacceptable at Wikipedia. Palestine (and previously the renamed Palestinian National Authority) has been included underneath the Israel entry since 2009 by Zoltan Bukovszky (an experienced editor within the field) and had worked seamlessly ever since for seven years. I am also due to appeal the misconstrued evaluation of the Rfc, although I believe that reporting the unjust and reprehensible behaviour of Spirit Ethanol would be necessary prior to appeal. Note: the user-in-question has been previously blocked twice. Thanks.--Neve–selbert 01:06, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Indef block reporting party before they embarrass themselves beyond recognition. Why? Check their history in this RFC and you'll laugh out loud or break out in tears.--TMCk (talk) 01:57, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- IDHT is an understatement in this situation. They already have embarrassed themselves. If they cannot accept consensus, then they should not take part in Wikipedia, until they show that they can. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 02:26, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- The reporter Neve-selbert attempted to dominate the RfC, obsessively responding to almost every comment. Altogether he made about 180 edits, amounting to about half the total text. Several times he made comments that in my view violate the basic principle of consensus that all editors must obey, such as I continue to plan to defend it and preserve all the way with all the blood, toil, tears, and sweat I can muster and There will be no change, and I will certainly see to it that there will be no change. Other editors' views were "laughable nonsense" and similar (first diff). After administrator JzG (talk · contribs) closed the RfC in line with the very clear consensus, he tried three times to restore the previous version [94] [95] [96] and now tries to wikilawyer around JzG's closure. This type of behavior is completely unacceptable. I propose an indefinite topic ban on any edits related to Palestine. Zerotalk 04:25, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Considering that this article would fall under ARBPIA, discussion of sanctions should be at WP:AE, unless an admin sees sufficient evidence for WP:ACDS topic ban to be imposed unilaterally. I will say that Neve-selbert's behaviour in that RFC was reprehensible. The general tone of their posts sought to dismiss and belittle any opponent to their opinion. The environment surrounding Israel-Palestine articles is bad enough without more editors like this. Blackmane (talk) 06:01, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Agree with Blackmane's assessment. Though frankly seems like there's enough here for a passing admin to address it directly. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 06:08, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- @TracyMcClark, The Voidwalker, Zero0000, Blackmane, and Evergreenfir: Firstly, I am willing to back off from this whole palaver and discuss the matter on the talk page in a rational and sensible manner, without any battleground overtone. Secondly, I would like the behaviour of Spirit Ethanol to also be addressed, as well as mine, for absolute fairness. And thirdly, I am not a female "she", but a male, "he" editor.--Neve–selbert 08:27, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- FWIW, I was not seeking a block per se for Spirit Ethanol. I just wanted an investigation of some sort as to both why he did not seek prior consensus on the talk page before the Rfc and why he misworded the Rfc question. I am disappointed that my behaviour is somehow viewed as "reprehensible".--Neve–selbert 08:36, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- I can't see how starting an RfC and attempting to resolve an edit dispute in such a civic manner is disruptive. The RfC question was not worded with intention to mislead participants, but to express how I perceived what the parent-child layout meant, which is misleading and ambiguous. Spirit Ethanol (talk) 09:13, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Spirit Ethanol: You should have sought local consensus prior to the Rfc. The fact that you ignored this is just pure recklessness. Your perception was a POV nonetheless, and it should have been discussed with familiarised editors before you kick-started the Rfc. A new discussion, meant to reflect on the evaluation, will take place in due course.--Neve–selbert 09:25, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- I more or less agree with this, the RfC was essentially useless, as the only one supporting Neve-selberts position is Neve-selbert himself. So an RfC was not necessary, local consensus would have been. Neve-selbert is unlikely to have complied, just like he did not comply with the RfC, but that would have been disruptive editing and handled accordingly. That said, the RfC does not pose a problem per se, it just dragged the process out longer. On the other hand it also went to show how overwhelmingly the consensus went against Neve-selberts edits, which at least clarifies that position. --OpenFuture (talk) 10:13, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)I disagree that a local consensus would have achieved anything. The point under discussion was Israel-Palestine related. I don't think a local consensus has ever been achieved without the discussion becoming a quasi-RFC anyway. There are just too many viewpoints by too many editors in such a contentious sphere. At least in an RFC, an administrator would close the discussion which has more binding power than a non structured discussion like an RFC. It is not recklessness and declaring it as such is an assumption of bad faith. I viewed your behaviour as reprehensible because of how you badgered every point. If it did not fit your POV, it was dismissed or responded to with disdain. This is not the behaviour one expects in a RFC. Quite frankly, I would view Spirit Ethanol's skipping of the usual free for all that is 'discussion' in PI articles as a bold application of WP:IAR. Blackmane (talk) 10:20, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- I think ultimately the only way to resolve this matter was through wider community participation, especially given that many similar articles exist. That is only achieved through a RFC. Other "discussion" at the page would have been a horrendous waste of time, I think that is quite clear. AusLondonder (talk) 10:42, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Spirit Ethanol: You should have sought local consensus prior to the Rfc. The fact that you ignored this is just pure recklessness. Your perception was a POV nonetheless, and it should have been discussed with familiarised editors before you kick-started the Rfc. A new discussion, meant to reflect on the evaluation, will take place in due course.--Neve–selbert 09:25, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- I can't see how starting an RfC and attempting to resolve an edit dispute in such a civic manner is disruptive. The RfC question was not worded with intention to mislead participants, but to express how I perceived what the parent-child layout meant, which is misleading and ambiguous. Spirit Ethanol (talk) 09:13, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Agree with Blackmane's assessment. Though frankly seems like there's enough here for a passing admin to address it directly. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 06:08, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Comment I think a boomerang may unfortunately be necessary here for the poster. They have repeatedly refused to WP:LISTEN to other editors. I first raised serious concerns about the fact that this article, which Neve-selbert appears to view as their personal property, listed Palestine as an entry under Israel, in the same way as a non-sovereign dependency such as Gibraltar in the United Kingdom. This post is simply sour grapes and an extraordinary attempt by a POV-pusher to smear a constructive editor. This is obvious by the referencing of expired blocks. AusLondonder (talk) 09:39, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- This is untrue, I am not attempting to smear anyone. I simply needed admin attention on the audacious behaviour of the editor-in-question. Any Rfc should have been launched subsequent to prior discussion as per protocol. Besides, I was simply trying to defend the status quo from a misunderstanding that eventually got out-of-hand. Had he just started a regular discussion on the talk page, without an Rfc, perhaps a unanimous agreement could have been reached without anyone jumping to any rash conclusions based on rash presumptions.--Neve–selbert 09:57, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- What admin action should be taken against you for your "audacious behaviour"? What action should be taken against you for nominating the list for deletion on 1 January using the rationale that is was still the 31st December in some parts of the world? What about nominating it for speedy deletion on bogus grounds during the middle of an Afd in which no editors agreed with you and which resulted in a snow keep? What action should be taken against you in relation to your conduct of de-legitamising and hounding opposing editors during the RfC? What action should be taken against you given your pledge to reject the community consensus from the RfC and your pledge to edit against that consensus? What action should be taken against you given your complete and utter failure to observe WP:NPOV? AusLondonder (talk) 10:12, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah, now Neve-selbert added "confusing" templates to the article without prior discussion in an apparent attempt of more disruption. --OpenFuture (talk) 10:44, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- What admin action should be taken against you for your "audacious behaviour"? What action should be taken against you for nominating the list for deletion on 1 January using the rationale that is was still the 31st December in some parts of the world? What about nominating it for speedy deletion on bogus grounds during the middle of an Afd in which no editors agreed with you and which resulted in a snow keep? What action should be taken against you in relation to your conduct of de-legitamising and hounding opposing editors during the RfC? What action should be taken against you given your pledge to reject the community consensus from the RfC and your pledge to edit against that consensus? What action should be taken against you given your complete and utter failure to observe WP:NPOV? AusLondonder (talk) 10:12, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support AusLondonder's proposal of a WP:BOOMERANG for Neve-selbert, if only for treating the site like a WP:BATTLEGROUND so consistently and so continuously. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 11:17, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Recommend that this report be withdrawn & the boomerang effort ended. We should concentrate on the dispute at the article-in-question as being what it is - a content dispute. GoodDay (talk) 12:24, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- It should be noted that GoodDay has a history of staunchly defending this editor, a record demonstrated throughout the period of the RfC. Undermining of the RfC and it's author took place. This was in addition to consistently making ludicrous and contradictory arguments subsequently overwhelmingly rejected. AusLondonder (talk) 13:15, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
So after writing above "I am willing to back off from this whole palaver", Neve-selbert still cannot let go of his obsession and now disrupts the article with tagging. [97] [98] I repeat my call for a topic ban. Or a block, at administrators' discretion. It is not acceptable to allow it to go on like this. Zerotalk 13:34, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Look, now I give up. We can talk about this rationally on the talk page, and I will refrain myself from any discretion. I have made my argument and my case, and now I would like to put it partially to rest—that is for now, at least.--Neve–selbert 23:53, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- "Partially"? "For now"? So you will partially keep up ownership and disruption and maybe later return to full throttle? That is what you've done over the whole course of the RFC.--TMCk (talk) 00:22, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- @TracyMcClark: I will give it a rest for now, I have run out of steam anyway. If Zoltan Bukovszky wants to contest the result? I will fully support him. Otherwise, I'm going to take a backseat. Either way, I shall continue my dedication to the SLBY articles.--Neve–selbert 00:54, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- What happened to giving it a rest? -- The Voidwalker Discuss 01:25, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- @TracyMcClark: I will give it a rest for now, I have run out of steam anyway. If Zoltan Bukovszky wants to contest the result? I will fully support him. Otherwise, I'm going to take a backseat. Either way, I shall continue my dedication to the SLBY articles.--Neve–selbert 00:54, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- "Partially"? "For now"? So you will partially keep up ownership and disruption and maybe later return to full throttle? That is what you've done over the whole course of the RFC.--TMCk (talk) 00:22, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Continuing arguing the case here is the opposite of giving it a rest.--TMCk (talk) 01:27, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- @The Voidwalker and TracyMcClark: I'm not arguing any case. I just need some answers to my concerns from experts, that's all.--Neve–selbert 01:41, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- FWIW, how relevant is the UN Occupied Palestinian Territory in this context? Hmm.--Neve–selbert 01:46, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oh dear after promising to stop the WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour Neve-selbert has simply engaged in WP:FORUMSHOPPING and posted a highly misleading and loaded "question" elsewhere as the last battle in their self-appointed crusade AusLondonder (talk) 04:41, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- @AusLondonder: There is no crusade, and I am not forum-shopping. I need clarification from experts on this issue. I lost the debate and I accept that. Done, finished. I accept the verdict. Will I contest it? I am still considering my options. Please, stop accusing me of bad faith. Besides, I am beginning to accept the fact that Palestine should be listed separately (only from 2013 onwards, though), after a lot of soul-searching the past night. Kosovo, on the other hand, I remain ambivalent.--Neve–selbert 08:22, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- You really need to start listening to others. --OpenFuture (talk) 08:55, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- @AusLondonder: There is no crusade, and I am not forum-shopping. I need clarification from experts on this issue. I lost the debate and I accept that. Done, finished. I accept the verdict. Will I contest it? I am still considering my options. Please, stop accusing me of bad faith. Besides, I am beginning to accept the fact that Palestine should be listed separately (only from 2013 onwards, though), after a lot of soul-searching the past night. Kosovo, on the other hand, I remain ambivalent.--Neve–selbert 08:22, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oh dear after promising to stop the WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour Neve-selbert has simply engaged in WP:FORUMSHOPPING and posted a highly misleading and loaded "question" elsewhere as the last battle in their self-appointed crusade AusLondonder (talk) 04:41, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Continuing arguing the case here is the opposite of giving it a rest.--TMCk (talk) 01:27, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Comment User in question, Neve, has repeatedly demonstrated preference for his personal opinion over reliable sources over and over again through out many discussions related to Palestine. @Sean.hoyland: has first hand experience dealing with this issue. Spirit Ethanol (talk) 08:24, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Withdraw This report should be withdrawn, ASAP. The behaviour of Spirit Ethanol was regrettable but, then again, so was mine. I apologise for the any inconvenience caused.--Neve–selbert
- Unfortunately, as this thread has come to focus on your behaviour, I don't think that requesting the thread be closed, despite your being the OP, is going to fly. That being said, I would propose that a final warning be issued and that should future transgressions in this article area be reported, they would be sent to arbitration enforcement and dealt with appropriately per the discretionary sanctions that have been authorised by Arbcom. Blackmane (talk) 01:45, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Long-term abuse by IPs - Cartoon category and template spamming
I recently found IP addresses spamming Category:Cartoon Network original programs and other cartoon TV channel related categories. They also like to spam cartoon channel templates. This extends back to 2013 at least. The currently active IPs are in the 2604:2000:A005:1F00* range ([99]) which geolocates to the Hendron, VA area. Originally posted over at EFN, but after no reply and further vandalism, I figured ANI might be the better venue.
IP addresses, chronologically;
- 68.175.36.204 - 28 June 2013 (26 edits) - Corona, New York City
- 108.27.140.223 - 29-30 June 2013 (56 edits) - Dodgewood, NYC
- 108.14.184.239 - 19 July 2015 - 27 August 2015 (41 edits) - Jamaica, NYC
- 66.65.15.94 - 13 November 2015 - 5 March 2016 (18 edits; blocked for 1 month by Smalljim) - Jackson Heights, NYC
- 2604:2000:A005:1F00:5C6D:7F99:9B84:AACE - 27 November 2015 (1 edit)
- 2604:2000:A005:1F00:1D57:3FE0:FD05:274C - 27 November 2015 (1 edit)
- 2604:2000:A005:1F00:F1B9:198A:563A:1364 - 28 November 2015 (1 edit)
- 2604:2000:A005:1F00:75AA:7AF2:F931:D8B0 - 5 December 2015 (14 edits)
- 2604:2000:A005:1F00:AD70:4B40:B463:DF95 - 5 December 2015 (1 edit)
- 2604:2000:A005:1F00:F5F4:E2C9:2215:51CF - 24 December 2016 (3 edits)
- 2604:2000:A005:1F00:FCC3:5AC:F3C:95E8 - 28 December 2016 (1 edit)
- 2604:2000:A005:1F00:F50A:922F:E049:736 - 31 December 2015 (3 edits)
- 2604:2000:A005:1F00:45FC:DED1:AEA2:C16 - 1 January 2016 (26 edits)
- 2604:2000:A005:1F00:E8FE:EF1C:3D9C:C85D - 1 January 2016 (2 edits)
- 2604:2000:A005:1F00:1040:BEF4:C70A:17C - 10 February 2016 (3 edits)
- 2604:2000:A005:1F00:B5B0:A287:D8C4:AD1F - 19 February 2016 (41 edits)
- 2604:2000:A005:1F00:6D0E:7088:267A:7BBF - 19 February 2016 (13 edits)
- 2604:2000:A005:1F00:E01F:A025:5C2B:D7D0 - 20-21 February 2016 (99 edits; blocked 31 hours by Materialscientist)
- 2604:2000:A005:1F00:4EE:7587:64D0:810F - 27 February 2016 (3 edits)
- 2604:2000:A005:1F00:11E1:4510:DC3F:5BA7 - 29 February 2016 (31 edits)
- 2604:2000:A005:1F00:913D:E7C:F6FF:2448 - 5 March 2016 (1 edit)
- 2604:2000:A005:1F00:F151:B15C:D21:864C - 12 March 2016 (1 edits)
- 2604:2000:A005:1F00:359E:B010:496A:CCD2 - 19 March 2016 (3 edits)
Is it possible to get a rangeblock for 2604:2000:A005:1F00:* (sorry, don't know how to do the CIDR)? Not sure what else to do other than get an edit filter for the type of vandalism. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 02:17, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- The CIDR range appears to be 2604:2000::/32 (as listed by the WHOIS info). However, it should probably be narrowed down to 2604:2000:a005:1f00::/64 and checked by someone more used to working with IP ranges. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 02:41, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- 2604:2000:a005:1f00::/64 would do the job, I think. That would block the 19 IPv6 listed and 1 /64 allocations. It is not possible to know how many different users may be using addresses in a /64 range as no tools are available to show the contributions for an IPv6 range though I read somewhere that a single user will generally use the same /64 range. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 03:15, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Malcolmx15: FWIW, the 2604:2000:A005:1F00* range is just one person [100] EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:22, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Malcolmxl5: rather. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:03, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- 2604:2000:a005:1f00::/64 would do the job, I think. That would block the 19 IPv6 listed and 1 /64 allocations. It is not possible to know how many different users may be using addresses in a /64 range as no tools are available to show the contributions for an IPv6 range though I read somewhere that a single user will generally use the same /64 range. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 03:15, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry, EvergreenFir, I had to sleep! Katie has taken care of this, I see. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 16:39, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you both for your help! EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 16:55, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry, EvergreenFir, I had to sleep! Katie has taken care of this, I see. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 16:39, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
User:176.239.115.13 engaging in harassment and vandalism
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The user was reported previously he was banned 30 hours. He is vandalizing this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kurdistan_Freedom_Falcons&action=history
Adding such words as (sic) and (terrorist) everywhere.Ferakp (talk) 12:06, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- This user has not been previously blocked.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:23, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Everywhere? --176.239.115.13 (talk) 12:54, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Ymblanter: Sorry my mistake, but I believe this person is same as the person was banned yesterday. His continuing to edit the same thing and with the same style. This user was banned yesterday from making and behaving the same way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/176.239.91.133 Ferakp (talk) 17:23, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- No, no cookie. Liz, maybe you can have a look at the Falcons article and see if it needs semi-protection. I'm more of an Eagles kind of person myself. Drmies (talk) 00:59, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Edit warring two days after being warned plus 3RR breach using Meatpuppet duck
Please see this edit history [102] you can see that two of the editors accused of being meat-puppets here [103] managed to break the 3RR together. One of them [104] had not been active since 21:45, 27 February 2016 before returning to help his friend disrupt disambiguation pages over the past few days. User:Неполканов on the other hand was warned about Edit warring just 23:13, 16 March 2016 as was I after I brought it to attention here although I had not made 3 reverts in 24 hours. The last version by User:Saltedcake would seem best to restore. An second attempt to resolve the dispute between the last edit war and the current one was turned down on the grounds that this is a behavioral issue. Any suggestions please? YuHuw (talk) 17:12, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- According 3RR the revert of sockpuppet editor is permitted exemption, I have revert of Yuhuw's sockpuppet new IP. I have added it this IP to the Yuhuw's active investigation 18:31, 19 March 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Неполканов (talk • contribs)
- The previous time that YuHuw complained about Неполканов on WP:ANI was on 16 March. The dispute was over Karaimism. But there was a conduct problem. Suggest readers have a look at Talk:Karaimism. Неполканов tried to engage over content, where as YuHuw replied using ad hominem arguments.
- According 3RR the revert of sockpuppet editor is permitted exemption, I have revert of Yuhuw's sockpuppet new IP. I have added it this IP to the Yuhuw's active investigation 18:31, 19 March 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Неполканов (talk • contribs)
- YuHuw tried the WP:DRN on 17 March, but his post on WP:DRN consisted only of comments on the other editors. WP:DRN explicitly says that you should not do that. In any case, at the same time as posting on WP:DRN, YuHuw launched sock-puppet allegations against Неполканов.[105] WP:DRN does not deal with cases whilst they are being dealt with in other forums such as WP:ANI or WP:SPI.
- It is perhaps worth mentioning that YuHuw is suspected of being a block-evading sock of User:Kaz. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Kaz.-- Toddy1 (talk) 19:49, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Since the basis of other editor's complaints against and reverts of YuHuw is the view that he is a sockpuppet, it would be ideal if the open SPI, which was filed February 7th, could be resolved one way or the other. There is a lot of content there to process but this feuding is going to continue on article talk pages, user talk pages and ANI until it is decided that YuHuw is a sockpuppet or isn't one. If he is, he'll face a block but if he isn't, I think that the editors who oppose his edits will have to find some policy-based reasons to do so instead of their suspicions that he is a sock. And the retaliatory SPI YuHuw filed just made things more complicated. Liz Read! Talk! 21:42, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- It is perhaps worth mentioning that YuHuw is suspected of being a block-evading sock of User:Kaz. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Kaz.-- Toddy1 (talk) 19:49, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Firstly I am not a sockpuppet. I have offered many times to prove my identity to the Wikimedia foundation but have not yet been afforded the opportunity. I would like to draw attention here though please to how Toddy1 who is not even mentioned in this complaint nor at the page in question *ALWAYS* steps in to mollycoddle Nepolkanov. I do not believe there are any sincere Admin who will believe the lies of these birds of a feather and seriously take their word for it rather than check deeply into all the pre-facts leading up to this complaint. Certainly I make mistakes concerning wiki policies unlike you Toddy who expertly works the system, but I am still relatively new here and I think I have done very well to catch up to your tricks in such a short amount of time. There is a sort of catch-22 situation here where no solutions are able to be suggested. Dispute resolution was sabotaged by Toddy1 calling me a sockpuppet so that door is closed as long as Toddy1's sockpuppet investigation is open. YuHuw (talk) 21:09, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
I don't want to involve myself in an affair like this, but i did revert an edit for unexplained removal of content. If we have the word "sockpuppet" being thrown around, shouldn't we be gathering evidence? 14:09, 21 March 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saltedcake (talk • contribs)
Abuse Filter For WP:Sandbox
Hello again,
Me and BethNaught have been going up against a number of IP's on the WP:Sandbox for a while now. I'm requesting that an Abuse Filter be put into place permanently for that page. I think that this would help get rid of all the lovely pictures that seem to always end up there. It would also be a good idea to put one on Draft:Sandbox. Thanks again for the help! --TJH2018 talk 20:27, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- To specify, yesterday and today an LTA sockmaster has been pasting explicit images on the sandbox in order to get it protected. If it's possible to write a filter to prevent explicit images being put there, that would be helpful. BethNaught (talk) 20:30, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- This is an extension of the above thread WP:ANI#Wikipedia:Sandbox. There was a filter mentioned in that thread you might find useful. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 20:41, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- It is, but our problem is that we don't have the rights to implement it or even look at it. TJH2018 talk 20:44, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- I do, since I'm an admin. Looking into it. Thank you, Voidwalker. BethNaught (talk) 20:46, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- A feeling told me you were. --TJH2018 talk 20:48, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Zzuuzz suggested a simple filter which has solved the immediate problem. Thanks. BethNaught (talk) 21:22, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- A feeling told me you were. --TJH2018 talk 20:48, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- I do, since I'm an admin. Looking into it. Thank you, Voidwalker. BethNaught (talk) 20:46, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- It is, but our problem is that we don't have the rights to implement it or even look at it. TJH2018 talk 20:44, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- This is an extension of the above thread WP:ANI#Wikipedia:Sandbox. There was a filter mentioned in that thread you might find useful. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 20:41, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- It might be possible to get a longer term rangeblock on this IP. However, to minimise collateral, this should be broken into two chunks. The first is 70.192.240.0/22, which should cause minimal problems. The second I calculated is larger; 70.192.190.0/19. This encompases the majority of the IP edits to the sandbox. It is also much more risky, and I am unable to effectively check the range myself. It would hit all IPs in the range from 70.192.190.0-71.192.221.255. I would not object to shrinking this range to 71.192.190.0/20. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 21:17, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Getting a new IP has become really easy, with my fritzbox (popular router in Germany) it is possible to obtain a new one in under 30 seconds or so.--Laber□T 21:32, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Both are Verizon Wireless dynamic ranges. First range has only two good contributions since February 20, so I've rangeblocked for 45 days. The second range, the /19 version, has 64 total edits since February 20. Of the 64 edits, 12 are to the sandbox and a few others are disruptive. Most, though, are benign. Narrowing it to the /20 range gives the same result, the same 64 edits. I'm on the fence for that one. Katietalk 01:54, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Sicilian IPs pushing Durium Records, Nikka Costa, inserting falsehoods globally
Both here and on Italian Wikipedia there is a person using multiple IPs from Sicily to puff up the importance of Durium Records, and promote the work of Nikka Costa. The disruption started in late January.
These IPs have also inserted wrong information, to the point of hoaxing. For instance, the person said that producer/arranger Don Costa was killed by the John Lennon murderer Mark David Chapman in 1983, despite Chapman being in high security prison that whole year. (Here's the Italian hoax from 24 February and the English hoax from 1 March.) Another pestiferous falsehood is the repeated assertion that the song "Go Away Little Girl" was written by James Taylor and Carly Simon rather than by Gerry Goffin and Carole King;[106] this is easily disproved by looking at any of the literature on the subject.[107]
Regarding the Durium Records connection, the IPs are listing Durium as an important part of the biography of various singers, despite having no supporting reference. At most, Durium might have been contracted to distribute in Italy the recordings of these British and American artists, but such contracts are commonplace for various countries and not notable. In this case, the Sicilian IPs are insisting that Durium must be listed in the infobox, as if the label had signed the artist themselves, which is not the case.
Regarding the promotion of Nikka Costa, the IPs persistently add her cover versions of songs, even if the cover version is unremarkable—not talked about in the media—which is usually the case, and the IPs also add the fact that she was a child when she released the cover version.[108] Strangely, the IPs want to call her "Nippo-American" despite nobody in the media calling her that.[109][110]
Wikipedians who have reverted the Sicilian IPs include Serols, Oshwah, Red Jay, Doniago, Smalljim, Clpo13, Jdcomix, Arjayay and GorgeCustersSabre. 79.27.106.92 was blocked twice, once by Smalljim and once by MusikAnimal. AlexiusHoratius protected "Go Away Little Girl" and the Nikka Costa biography (a BLP) after disruption from the Sicilian IPs. The same biography was also protected on Italian Wikipedia by K'n-yan.[111]
- Disruption at musical artist biographies
- Nikka Costa
- Don Costa
- Al Caiola
- Santo & Johnny
- Passengers (Italian band)
- Connie Francis
- Shirley Bassey
- Paul Anka
- James Taylor
- Dee D. Jackson
- Dori Ghezzi
- Other articles disrupted
- Durium Records
- United Artists Records
- Canadian-American Records
- Reprise Records
- Produttori Associati
- List of songs recorded by Nikka Costa
- Go Away Little Girl
- Sleep Walk
- Everybody's Talkin'
- Speak Softly, Love
- (Where Do I Begin?) Love Story
- The Way We Were (song)
- And I Love Her
- Global contributions of these Sicilian IPs
- 79.27.106.92 (English, Italian)
- 79.30.91.134 (English, Italian, Portuguese, German, French, Spanish, Hungarian)
- 79.35.96.150 (English, Italian)
- 79.55.22.183 (English, Italian, Portuguese, French, Spanish)
- 79.56.98.36 (English, Italian, French, Spanish, Swedish)
- 82.53.45.90 (English, Italian)
- 82.61.34.110 (English, Italian, Portuguese)
- 95.247.101.28 (English, Italian, French)
It looks like the Sicilian IPs are too widely spaced for a rangeblock to work. I recommend instead that we place long-term semi-protection on all of the involved articles. Binksternet (talk) 20:38, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Also, 79.56.98.36 was blocked for two weeks by Kuru. Binksternet (talk) 20:42, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Poor attitude, lack of good faith and ownership issues of User:Cassianto
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:Cassianto is displaying a very poor attitude and condescending tone of language towards me. I raised a simply query on Talk:Frank Sinatra about the formatting of the info box, and every since said user has been talking down to me, both on the bio talk and on my own talk page, and asserting a serious case of ownership. I feel like I am being bullied and sidelined because I don't belong to the small group that who are asserting editorial control who are not willing to listen to anyone else. His block log over the last 18 months for multiple personal attacks and harassment isn't a good indicator either.
- "it is not you who gets to decide whether the collapsing of it was unhelpful to the reader or not." - Underlying notions of ownership.
- "Well, you've had your say, no shut up and face the fact that the collapsed infobox is here to stay." - Ownership issues and not assuming good faith. So it's okay for everyone else to say something, but not me because I haven't sided with them?
- "fuck off" - Not assuming good faith/personal attack following a Not assuming good faith warning about the previous bullet point.
Not once have I told anyone to "shut up", or swear at anyone, or made anyone feel like they have no place in a discussion during this entire discussion. There is a high level of immaturity being displayed here and a serious case of group ownership. — Calvin999 22:21, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Unfortunately Calvin999 has a habit of saying things which he knows will provoke a reaction. He's done it previously with the Wp:Women group. Here he is clearly aware of the heated history with the infobox on the Sinatra article and of oreivous infobox disputes and just comes across as looking for trouble. Stirring things up, looking for a confrontation and then running to ANI to try to fester some drama. Cassianto has simply said what most of us are thinking. I strongly suggest an admin gives Calvin a good speaking to and advises him to focus on content and stop trying to wind people up. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:46, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Agreed. The compromise of the collapsed infobox was decided months ago but Calvin has derailed that compromise and split the consensus of whether or not the collapsed infobox should remain in the article. Every time I've seen him he's always been provoking people and looking for trouble. JAGUAR 22:52, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Is disagreeing, or even raising a query, classified as provoking a reaction now? I wasn't aware it was. Blofeld is accusing me of lying. I have never been involved with anything to do with the info box situation. Check your threads, discussions and archives. You won't find my name. Please give me some proof of your accusation Blofeld (You won't, because you can't, and so you will ignore this request). I strongly advise you get your facts right and stop getting things twisted. If you both think that I have enough time in the day to "look for trouble," then you are both mistaken. — Calvin999 22:58, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have been the target of Cassianto's disdain so I know what it feels like but I must say that this edit, where you post a template message "welcoming" Cassianto to Wikipedia as if he was a newbie, was bound to provoke any editor who has been active for 6 years. Liz Read! Talk! 00:35, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- I can't help the pre-coded template. I placed a Level 1 general warning. It wasn't appropriate to issue a final or only warning as I hadn't needed to go through that many. Maybe the template needs changing, because not assuming good faith as a level one can apply to anyone. — Calvin999 01:31, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Really? 'I can't help the pre-coded template' is the best you can do? Katietalk 02:03, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Well, it's true, is it not? Or do we have templates for allegedly experienced and established editors? — Calvin999 10:57, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Forget fucking templates, see WP:DTR. CassiantoTalk 11:15, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Why are you swearing again? It's not impressive. Also: WP:DTR#Recipients should still assume good faith. — Calvin999 11:19, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Forget fucking templates, see WP:DTR. CassiantoTalk 11:15, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Well, it's true, is it not? Or do we have templates for allegedly experienced and established editors? — Calvin999 10:57, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Really? 'I can't help the pre-coded template' is the best you can do? Katietalk 02:03, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- I can't help the pre-coded template. I placed a Level 1 general warning. It wasn't appropriate to issue a final or only warning as I hadn't needed to go through that many. Maybe the template needs changing, because not assuming good faith as a level one can apply to anyone. — Calvin999 01:31, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have been the target of Cassianto's disdain so I know what it feels like but I must say that this edit, where you post a template message "welcoming" Cassianto to Wikipedia as if he was a newbie, was bound to provoke any editor who has been active for 6 years. Liz Read! Talk! 00:35, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Is disagreeing, or even raising a query, classified as provoking a reaction now? I wasn't aware it was. Blofeld is accusing me of lying. I have never been involved with anything to do with the info box situation. Check your threads, discussions and archives. You won't find my name. Please give me some proof of your accusation Blofeld (You won't, because you can't, and so you will ignore this request). I strongly advise you get your facts right and stop getting things twisted. If you both think that I have enough time in the day to "look for trouble," then you are both mistaken. — Calvin999 22:58, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- Dr. Blofeld, can you indicate how Calvin999 was "clearly aware of the heated history with the infobox on the Sinatra article"? He hadn't edited the article (except that onetime un-collapse of the infobox the previous day) or its talk page prior to that TP query, and there were no TP posts or discussions directly visible on the page when he posted it [112]. Softlavender (talk) 02:19, 20 March 2016 (UTC); edited 04:55, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Because Calvin has a history of making remarks at places he know is going to provoke a reaction. Knowing his trolling at the women project it's obvious at least to me that he knew that an infobox dispute had been prevalent with Sinatra and knew that by bringing it up again it would provoke a reaction and drama. At times Calvin behaves suspiciously like User:Caden, especially recently with the argument with Cassianto whom Caden detests. I did wonder if he was a sock but I don't have any proof of that. He is a troublemaker, you can see this by how the argument unfolded he persisted on winding people up and templating veterans like Cassianto and myself. Calvin seems to revel in the drama that his comments cause at times, this is another example of it. I'm not buying the argument that he strayed into the Sinatra article of all ones and happened to innocently comment on the infobox, sorry.♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:29, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Being a veteran, you should be able to rise above being templated, not get wound up by it... Like, ironically, a noob would. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 11:07, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- He didn't wind me up with templating me, I wasn't even online when he did and it was swiftly reverted by somebody else!♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:10, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- You still haven't provided any actual evidence he had any prior knowledge about the history with the infobox on the Sinatra article. The fact that on one single day six months ago he objected to the existence of WP:WikiProject Women does not mean he knew anything about the history of the infobox on the Sinatra article. If you want to file an SPI that would be one thing, but jumping to conclusions based on little more than personal dislike seems to be unwarranted. Softlavender (talk) 07:46, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Softlavender, you hold a grudge against me since we had a AFD dispute that one time, so any comment made here by you about "personal dislike" just looks laughable. From a 60 year old woman it's a bit petty/childish of you to bring your grudge here. I have nothing against you, but this is really none of your business. The fact is, the Sinatra article has had a few million hits since I wrote it, and nobody has claimed about a collapsed infobox till now, and it's Calvin of all people. Assume good faith? Mmm.♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:59, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Now you're engaging in even more mind-reading. I certainly don't hold a grudge against you, and I don't recall any AfD we might have disagreed on -- since AfD arguments are generally to either Keep or Delete, people always disagree, even with editors they agree with on other things. Anything on ANI is any experienced user's business, and if you make a claim like Calvin999 was "clearly aware of the heated history with the infobox on the Sinatra article", you need to be prepared to back it up with evidence. Softlavender (talk) 08:18, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have the answer for you Softlavender: Neither Dr. Blofeld nor any of his friends can provide evidence or proof of me having edited Sinatra's page or having been involved in anything to do with it's format, style or presentation, because I have never been involved in any of it. They are clutching at straws. The whole "provoking a reaction" thing is cute but has no weight in it's argument. They classify anyone not agreeing with them as provoking a reaction. Again, who on earth is Caden? Blofeld needs to be seriously cautioned on his tendency to accuse people of things they have never been involved in or know anything or anyone about. It's really not helping his case here. I'm not buying any of the BS lies he is spewing either, which is further cemented by his innate inability to provide any kind of proof or evidence. Also, Blofeld, it's you who bought up WP Women, not me (clutching at straws again). I forgot about that ages ago. Think it's time you did too. Bitterness and lying is not the answer. You couldn't answer anything I asked you on Sinatra's talk or my user talk, and now you are dodging Softlavender's questions. — Calvin999 10:57, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Now you're engaging in even more mind-reading. I certainly don't hold a grudge against you, and I don't recall any AfD we might have disagreed on -- since AfD arguments are generally to either Keep or Delete, people always disagree, even with editors they agree with on other things. Anything on ANI is any experienced user's business, and if you make a claim like Calvin999 was "clearly aware of the heated history with the infobox on the Sinatra article", you need to be prepared to back it up with evidence. Softlavender (talk) 08:18, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Softlavender, you hold a grudge against me since we had a AFD dispute that one time, so any comment made here by you about "personal dislike" just looks laughable. From a 60 year old woman it's a bit petty/childish of you to bring your grudge here. I have nothing against you, but this is really none of your business. The fact is, the Sinatra article has had a few million hits since I wrote it, and nobody has claimed about a collapsed infobox till now, and it's Calvin of all people. Assume good faith? Mmm.♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:59, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Calvin, please just Wikipedia:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass and move on. You're coming across as a troublemaker, a troll, whatever you want to call it. If you want to bring about change to wikipedia you're going about it totally the wrong way. Get on with something constructive.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:07, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- But you aren't? Again, you've dodged everything I said. I think you need to take a long hard look at your style and approach too, because you're certainly not perfect yourself (and I don't claim to be either, because you take that and run with it). You've trapped yourself in your own web by demonstrating how you are out to get me, but have absolutely nothing to back up what you're saying, and now you are trying to deflect the attention from yourself. I'm afraid that is the consequence of outright lying and accusing someone else of lying without any proof. It was you who started on me, and it is you who is failing to comply here. Until you can form a valid argument, I'm really not interested in whatever lies you have to say henceforth. — Calvin999 11:17, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Because Calvin has a history of making remarks at places he know is going to provoke a reaction. Knowing his trolling at the women project it's obvious at least to me that he knew that an infobox dispute had been prevalent with Sinatra and knew that by bringing it up again it would provoke a reaction and drama. At times Calvin behaves suspiciously like User:Caden, especially recently with the argument with Cassianto whom Caden detests. I did wonder if he was a sock but I don't have any proof of that. He is a troublemaker, you can see this by how the argument unfolded he persisted on winding people up and templating veterans like Cassianto and myself. Calvin seems to revel in the drama that his comments cause at times, this is another example of it. I'm not buying the argument that he strayed into the Sinatra article of all ones and happened to innocently comment on the infobox, sorry.♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:29, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Aaron, I'm really sure this thread is worth the trouble it's bringing. I advised against the templating, and you put it back in, which caused the reaction you got. I'd possibly have done the same if someone had templated me with a welcome template too! i'm not sure about the OWN accusations either: whenever I've seen that particular allegation made (along with the claim of being sidelined or not listened to), it's always by someone against whom the consensus is flowing, which appears to be the case on the Sinatra thread too (given nothing more scientific than a !vote count). Given that a couple of your comments on the thread are as staunch and inflexible as those you are complaining about, I'm not sure this is going to lead to anything constructive. It may be time for all parties (from all sides) to down sticks and walk away. – SchroCat (talk) 11:18, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks SchroCat a.k.a. the voice of reason! :) I came here because of how I was being spoken to and sworn at. I think that Cass should apologise for swearing and talking down to me, and I think that Blofeld should apologise for accusations of lying and troublemaking. If they want to be seen as rising above this and repairing their facade's, they would apologise. — Calvin999 11:26, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- You'll be waiting a long time for any kind of apology from me. That's all I'm going to say on the matter and as far as I'm concerned, this thread is closed. CassiantoTalk 12:56, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Asserting control again? It's not your decision to decide to close, especially when it's you being reported... — Calvin999 13:07, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- You'll be waiting a long time for any kind of apology from me. That's all I'm going to say on the matter and as far as I'm concerned, this thread is closed. CassiantoTalk 12:56, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Note to admin: I'd like an interaction ban which bars Cassianto (and Dr. Blofeld and Jaguar; all three of them have block logs of multiple counts of personal attacks and harassment) from interacting or contacting with me please. I don't need or want someone as immature and disrespectful as this harassing me here and on my user talk, telling me to fuck off and personally attacking me. He has a history of being vile to editors (as noted by other editors in this thread) and telling them to fuck off. He has a serious attitude problem and I don't want, need or care for that. Many editors are emailing me personally telling me how they have been treated by him, so it's not just me who is saying this. All three of them are ganging up on my user talk. — Calvin999 13:20, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
"All three of them have block logs of multiple counts of personal attacks and harassment)" LMAO, name a single block in the last five years and a valid one which actually stood for more than a few hours. I don't think I've ever been blocked legitimately for a block duration given! As far as I was concerned this was over last night. Myself and Jaguar have only recently spoken to you because of your idiotic comments towards Cassianto about having more life experience and education. You just don't know when to drop it and move on. As I said on the Sinatra page, this ANI thread is not about Cassianto or myself really, it's about your need to be the centre of attention and comments which look to provoke a reaction. If you had genuine good intentions you'd have dropped this a long time ago.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:55, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- A log is a log that is never wiped clean. Any amount of duration for a block is not good. I wish it had stayed done with last night, but you've carried it on and trolled and harassed me on my user talk today. Just stop replying to me or posting on my talk. The three of you have shown your true colours and everyone can see it. If any of you had good intentions, the three of you wouldn't have taken the harassment path and instead shown me how, why and when consensus was reach bout the info box in a cool, calm and collected manner. You really don't have a leg to stand on accusing me of things that you are guilty of yourselves. The Sinatra thread is 100% about you. I kindly request than an interaction ban is imposed on Cassianto, Dr. Blofeld and Jaguar so that they are not allowed to contact me or have any form of interaction with me again. — Calvin999 14:06, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- I don't even know who you are. We've never even interacted before. I think there's a case of jumping on the bandwagon here. — Calvin999 09:43, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- You wanted my help not 5 days ago and said you've always greatly admired my work? Lol. And this discussion is about Cassianto and his issues, not me. — Calvin999 21:32, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- Lets just say, this hadn't happened yet. You saw what I said as "suck-up" and "wasn't buying it", then why are you taking it seriously now. Any admin who wants proof of how much time and energy Calvin has to dedicate to unconstructive arguments, open up the link above. I am seriously not going to waste much time here. I wasn't asking you for help, but to stop disrupting my efforts. Oh, and while admins are at it, they may also see this and this for context. Calvin has become nothing but a vandal lately.--MaranoFan (talk) 08:02, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- It wasn't actually me who started that thread though was it, MaranoFan. I've never taken you seriously on here, and neither have many others, because of how you go about things. You canvass for reviews, show off if a review isn't completed within 60 seconds of you nominating an article for a review, and have zero interested in building bridges. 6 days ago you wiped your page clean with the edit summary of "bye", then 6 days later you start editing again. How can anyone take that seriously? Do you even know what a vandal is and what it means on Wikipedia? It means genre change without sourcing, it means page blanking, it means, removing information without reason, it means replacing an article's text with profanity, it means adding promotion or spam to an article. amongst many other things. Another reason why what you say can't be taken seriously. You don't even know what basic Wikipedia terms mean. I can provide links of MaranoFan insulting me if required. — Calvin999 09:22, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Lets just say, this hadn't happened yet. You saw what I said as "suck-up" and "wasn't buying it", then why are you taking it seriously now. Any admin who wants proof of how much time and energy Calvin has to dedicate to unconstructive arguments, open up the link above. I am seriously not going to waste much time here. I wasn't asking you for help, but to stop disrupting my efforts. Oh, and while admins are at it, they may also see this and this for context. Calvin has become nothing but a vandal lately.--MaranoFan (talk) 08:02, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- You wanted my help not 5 days ago and said you've always greatly admired my work? Lol. And this discussion is about Cassianto and his issues, not me. — Calvin999 21:32, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Cassianto is still harassing me. He won't drop it. 21:32, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
79.78.168.63
79.78.168.63 (talk · contribs) has returned to his disruptive edits at Hebrew calendar after the page protection expired.[113] The edit summary speaks for itself and proves that this editor is not going to desist. The IP was blocked this February for two weeks for the same type of behavior. Also see User_talk:HighInBC#79.78.168.63 and User_talk:HighInBC#79.78.168.63_again for some history. I propose to block this IP again for a month.
In view of the fact that the edit summary quotes my post at Chesdovi's WP:AE, see my post and Chesdovi's reply, I think somebody should check if this IP is a sockpuppet of Chesdovi. Debresser (talk) 22:35, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
- I notice that Debresser did not have the courtesy to notify Chesdovi of his allegations. As to the edit, there has been discussion on the talk page, which Debresser conveniently fails to mention. A suggestion was made by Sir Joseph, which Debresser and StevenJ81 endorsed, and the discussion ended with an agreement to edit the article on those lines. This I have done. Note that Debresser insinuates that my edit is "disruptive", but fails to mention anything which he finds disruptive about it. 79.78.168.63 (talk) 12:14, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Lies. The discussion ended with a unanimous disagreement to change the article (and a template dedicated to Jewish holidays) along the lines proposed by 79.78.168.63.
- Disruptive is an editor who insists to repeatedly perform an edit which is rejected by consensus, and for which he was blocked and the article protected. That is obvious enough, and needn't be spelled out. The claim that his edit enjoys consensus is a case of WP:DIDNTHEARTHAT and is a nice example of how disruptive this editor is.
- I forgot to notify Chesdovi and will take care of that forthwith.[114] I opened this section not about him, but about the disruptive IP. Debresser (talk) 13:30, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Check above:
I think somebody should check if this IP is a sockpuppet of Chesdovi.
This section is not about Chesdovi?
The only person who is lying is Debresser. Here's the discussion verbatim:
- Considering the title of the article is Marcheshvan, and that redirects are free, I think the article should be housed at Marcheshvan with a redirect from Cheshvan. Even if common people would type in cheshvan, they'd get to marcheshvan, from the redirect and learn that it's really marcheshvan, similar to an index in a paper encyclopedia where you look up cheshvan and it says, "see marcheshvan." Sir Joseph (talk) 16:17, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- Not a bad idea. Debresser (talk) 16:40, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- Do we need a RPM or just do it? Sir Joseph (talk) 16:53, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- Not a bad idea. Debresser (talk) 16:40, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
If you look at the page history you will see that all the reverts are by Debresser with abusive edit summaries, e.g.
Revert to pre-vandalism version.
I propose a block for Debresser for
- Edit warring
- Lying
- Unsubstantiated WP:NPA.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.78.168.63 (talk) 17:00, 20 March 2016
- The problems here are that 1. The edit you made did not implement that precise suggestion but repeated the same edit you were blocked for. 2. The blocks were supposed to have made you understand that you can not do whatever you want, and you should be extra careful not to draw premature or incorrect conclusions in the same field you were blocked for. 3. There was indeed discussion, but no decision was made there. Debresser (talk) 21:22, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- I think you need to go to WP:SPI but the behavior is strikingly similar. Sir Joseph (talk) 22:44, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
My 2 cents is that the IP has been edit warring their preferred version. I have blocked, and when that did not work I had to resort to semi-protection. As far as I can tell Debresser is working with others and editing collaboratively. The IP is likely to continue to receive similar treatment if they keep edit warring. I am not going to semi-protect again over this, if the edit warring continues I will block instead. Since the IP seems to remain static I will use a hard block which may also hit their primary account.
As for the sock puppetry accusations against the user I don't know enough to comment on them. HighInBC 14:58, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- What's with you guys? Another nasty message has come up on my talk page. The consensus is that we use "Marcheshvan" rather than "Cheshvan" because the name of the month is "Marcheshvan". So I edit the article to reflect the consensus and get threats. Seriously, what is the problem here? 79.78.168.63 (talk) 14:33, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- If you really had a consensus then people would not be upset with you, get it? I think the problem is that you are seeing a consensus when others do not which by definition is not a consensus. HighInBC 15:44, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- After reviewing this IPs edit history two things are clear. 1, all of the edits are from the same person going back months, and 2, they are here for one purpose only and that is not to create an encyclopedia. I have blocked the IP for 1 month based, based on the concerns about sock puppetry I have made it a hard block.
- I welcome any admin to review this action, if you disagree let me know. More details are on the IPs talk page. HighInBC 15:51, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
MfD end run GAME
See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chaz Knapp. Userpage kept at MfD, so someone moves it to mainspace to see it deleted under the higher standards of AfD. A disingenuous move of someone else's userpage. WP:GAMEing to subvert the consensus at MfD. Blatant refusal to accept the obvious consensus at WT:N that the WP:GNG is not to be applied to userpage drafts. WP:TEAMing, by the page mover and the AfD nominator. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:14, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- This is a little crazy. The page should be userfied and the AfD closed. It was a user page moved into main space and then immediately nominated for deletion so clearly the editor didn't think it met notability standards. It should have been left as a user page. Liz Read! Talk! 00:31, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- No notification to me of this thread, just happened to see the topic. It is disingenuous to vote to keep a topic that you think does not belong in the encyclopedia and even more so to start an ANi thread about someone taking action to make usable something you want kept. There are tons of stubs out in mainspace waiting to be expanded and this is just one more. If the topic passes GNG, great, and if not, that is ok too. Let editors decide. Legacypac (talk) 00:44, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I think the question is not on the material itself, but the fact that almost no one, not even yourself, believes it passes GNG, but it was moved to the mainspace seemingly with the intent to have it AFDd. It makes it seem that the thought process in your head is as follows: "Oh, it survived MfD because GNG does not apply to the user space. Let's move it to the mainspace so it can be deleted!"
- I'm not really sure what I think of this mess. It brings up the question, why should stale drafts be deleted? No one seems to agree on that. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 01:20, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Other examples:
I'm sure there are more. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:06, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Comment - Not a conduct issue. Just move it back to user or draft space. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:16, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- It is most definitely behavioural. Wikipedia_talk:Notability#RfC:_Does_WP:N_apply_to_drafts_in_userspace_or_draftspace.3F was very clear, almost personally, to Legacypac. This GAME of moving his MfD userpage nomination failures unilaterally to mainspace for himself or Ricky to immediately nominate at AfD citing the GNG is even an openly declared strategy. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:23, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Wikipedia_talk:User_pages#Moving_userspace_drafts_to_mainspace_to_test_notability
- See also Wikipedia_talk:User_pages#Moving_userspace_drafts_to_mainspace_to_test_notability. Very much related. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:28, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Wait, is the accusation that I'm teaming up to nominate the page for AFD along with closing the MFD discussion? I'm just closing these MFD discussions and there's been more than enough at MFD with people moving them to mainspace in the middle of MFD and removing the MFD notice. See Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:Rohit Varma, M.D., M.P.H. (2nd nomination) and Rohit Varma for one by DGG. If Legacypac is doing that with non-notable pages, then anyone can nominate them for deletion but most of the moves seem fine to me. The RFC on these moves basically came back as no consensus due to not being specific enough. I nominated the Watersheds for AFD specifically with the option to draftify since it didn't seem to qualify for mainspace. I think the issue is the question of what exactly is to be done with many year old drafts that possibly (?) aren't ready for mainspace. That and the repeated accusations of some kind of cabal-like behavior based on the very few interactions going on at MFD. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:38, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- You are connected in that Legacypac is drawing from your list of so called stale pages, and in at least two cases have AfDed a userpage that legacypac moved to mainspace in bad faith. I would call on you to not enable this activity. Yes, Legacypac is doing many justifiable userspace-to-mainspace moves, but amongst them are some pretty bad faith MfD end runs, moving userpages to mainspace where he well knows they will be promptly deleted per AfD standards. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:14, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- I think there is a large amount of mind-reading as to why Legacypac is doing whatever he is doing in this area, and I personally agree with Ricky81682 that the moves look helpful and in good faith. If someone's research and writing appear useful to the encyclopedia, then by all means move it to mainspace. Softlavender (talk) 02:55, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- The move by Legacypac is at the very least WP:POINTy. He directly stated in the move rationale that he didn't think it was notable, and yet he moved to mainspace anyway. I don't think Ricky's behavior is problematic. Assuming good faith, he saw an article that wasn't notable in the mainspace and nominated it for AfD, exactly as he should in that situation. ~ RobTalk 03:06, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Many of the page moves are an end run around the communities lack of agreement for the wholesale deletion of drafts. One random example is Hack n' Smack Celebrity Golf Classic in Memory of Kerry Daveline. Legacypac moved it from userspace to mainspace where it was A7-ed. Yet Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_56#The_A_criteria_do_not_apply_to_DraftSpace was abundantly clear that A-criteria do not apply outside mainspace. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:09, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- I've CSD'd thousands of stale drafts and promoted hundreds of them to mainspace. The complaining deals with a few borderline cases. I actually thought the Hack and Smack one was notable (it is a long running Hollywood star studded event that has received a lot of press) and was surprised to see it deleted A7 by an Admin. I'm doing productive sorting of stale drafts. The complaint is only armchair quarterbacking. Legacypac (talk) 05:19, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- No action: Not an ANI issue, as others have noted. The purpose of draftspace is to draft articles. This is just an illustration of how current MfD practices are woefully inadequate to the task of handling the draft namespace. Draftspace MfDs are essentially a catch-22: The purpose of draftspace is to prepare an article for eventual movement to mainspace. MfD won't consider notability of a draft because a draft isn't an article. So we're left with a continuous parade of abandoned drafts on subjects that weren't notable when written, and never became notable in the ensuing years. Call it an IAR move. Something has got to give. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 05:24, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Certainly an ANI issue. I have userfied the page and closed the AfD. Legacypac has been completely open with this strategy: the edit summary from Graffiki sums it up nicely: move to mainspace to subject to AfD to test notability- claims at MfD that GNG does not apply are too annoying. I have left the following comments at User talk:Legacypac along with a warning not to continue these actions. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:06, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
It was highly disruptive to move User:Acresant1123/Chaz Knapp to mainspace when you knew it was not suitable. You are hereby issued with wet trout. If you do this again, you may be blocked.
Just in case you don't understand why your actions are inappropriate, consider the following analogy. There is something in your userspace which I find objectionable. I move the page into the template namespace. I then open a TfD pointing out that it is not a template and should be deleted.
If you want to change Wikipedia's policy on the draft namespace, then please work towards getting it changed. (You may well receive broad support from other editors.) But circumventing inconvenient policies that you don't agree with, will not be tolerated. Regards — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 06:57, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
What a disruptive move on your part, threatening me for moving a marginal article to mainspace - i even tagged it appropriately for cleanup. Why are you overriding another Admin's AfD and the opinions of other editors that this should be deleted? Sitting in the userspace of a long gone user accomplishes nothing. 07:16, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- I agree. MSGJ's action here is closer to a supervote than anything else. Even if the move to mainspace was wrong, unilaterally closing an AfD with good faith !votes in support of deletion, before the discussion had been open for 7 days, would be just as wrong if not more so. Two wrongs don't make a right. As I said above, this is yet another illustration of how woefully inadequate MfD has become for addressing article drafts. Legacypac should be commended for being bold and trying to find a resolution for this. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 07:40, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Comment: Can someone please tell me what use it is to retain non-notable stale drafts created by drive-by users who left immediately half a decade ago? Softlavender (talk) 07:51, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Better to wait for an editor who cares about the topic to look into it than to have legacypac mass-process them all throwing out notable drafts amongst them, and alienating once productive Wikipedians now on wikibreak. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:57, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Please don't move the goalposts. Softlavender asked about a very specific scenario that didn't involve people on wikibreak, and involved a draft that hadn't been touched in a half-decade. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 08:04, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- There was an MFD discussion for deleting a page of a user who hasn't been active since 2005 opposed heavily on the basis that the user didn't put up a "retired" tag on their page meaning that they could return after a decade. To some people, a half-decade or longer could be a wikibreak. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:50, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- And how would an editor "who cares about the topic" find such a non-notable userpage draft? And who would such an editor be that would even find a userpage draft on a non-notable subject? Moreover, unless coded with "noindex", non-notable user subpages come up on Google searches and act as spam and self-promotion unless deleted. Softlavender (talk) 08:10, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Interested editors find userspace material using internal Wikipedia searches, or WhatLinksHere from related topics. The issue is Legacypac GAMEing to delete old drafts on notable topics. Deciding Wikipedia-notability requires extensive source searching and analysis, it is not defined by the current state of the page. Spam and promotion are irrelevant to this discussion, no one opposes deletion of spam and promotion. What this is about is Legacypac moving userspace drafts on possibly notable topics to mainspace so that they will get deleted, when the page has already been kept as a userpage, or draft page, at MfD, or he knows full well that it would be kept. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:26, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Softlavender: Re "non-notable user subpages come up on Google searches" - this is a common argument, but it's actually not true at all, and hasn't been for some time. As documented at Wikipedia:Controlling search engine indexing#Namespace and robots.txt, all of userspace and draftspace are automatically noindexed. You can verify this yourself by trying to find these drafts through Google. I've done it and found that, ironically, all you can find is the deletion discussion. So deleting the pages actually gives them marginally more exposure than leaving them be. For stale pages with mild to moderate promotion issues, the best option is clearly to blank and replace with {{Userpage blanked}}, which is actually the remedy recommended by WP:STALEDRAFT. A2soup (talk) 21:07, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Please don't move the goalposts. Softlavender asked about a very specific scenario that didn't involve people on wikibreak, and involved a draft that hadn't been touched in a half-decade. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 08:04, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The attitude I've been seeing since I showed up at MfD seems to alternate between "someone might use it someday" (but contrast WP:XBALL) and "the policy page doesn't say we should delete it" (usually referring to the explicit wording of WP:STALEDRAFT, which suggests a whole host of non-delete outcomes for things that will never be used in yet another half-decade). —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 08:01, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- The logic here beats me. MFD is just getting weird. Ten year old drafts of Hitler have opposition to deletion. 18 month old press releases in Mongolian about stock issuances get opposed. Eight year old copies of mainspace articles get opposition. Nine year old drafts of the article for WWI in the userspace of a vanished user are opposed. We have non-admin closures for a crazy contentious discussion to keep a single sentence after five years when a draft already exist based on other identical discussions while relisting get reverted until an RFC about whether "Is it appropriate to indiscriminately and without meaningful comment relist old poorly attended discussions" is resolved. I don't agree with it but I understand Legacypac's frustration. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:46, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- That's inclusionism gone mad. The arguments posted by the opposers are nonsensical. Blackmane (talk) 10:44, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- My personal favorite at the moment is this MfD in which it's been claimed that deleting content copied-and-pasted from a web source as a copyvio is inappropriate because it serves to BITE the creator, who might be an employee or volunteer for the subject, and who hasn't followed the instructions at WP:DCM, and who has been blocked for having a promotional username and engaging in promotional edits (and not merely a UAA "you only have to change your username" block). —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 17:59, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
To answer why we are deleting userspace drafts, the process found about 50 hoaxes just from one user: [117] and it took me just a couple minutes of checking to find this nonsense User:RickyIsNinja/The_Ooba_Jooba but hey maybe we should save that in case someone can establish notability or wants to work on it. Legacypac (talk) 18:28, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- That looks like a slam-dunk delete to me because it's either a hoax or something made-up for off-wiki purposes. Even hardcore inclusionists should see that. I've gone ahead and MFD'd it. clpo13(talk) 18:53, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- The more appropriate and efficient action for a blatant hoax to to speedy delete per WP:G3. But in any case, to the best of my knowledge, neither I not anyone else has opposed the MfD deletion of a demonstrated hoax. Contrary to their statement above, Legacypac has repeatedly stated that the purpose of deleting userspace drafts is to clean up userspace, with no mention of hoaxes. A quick look at their MfD noms will also show that hoaxes are a very small proportion. A2soup (talk) 21:17, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
If we MfD this User:Rileyboss/Michael smith's dick someone will argue we should not be tampering with userspace. Legacypac (talk) 19:27, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
A userpage draft should not be kept indefinitely. It was last edited by the editor who created it in March 2011. If there is no policy on drafts covering time limits for drafts then policy covering the matter should be created. How many years can a draft be kept in usepage before it is deleted or moved to mainspace? QuackGuru (talk) 19:41, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Sadly, there's enough apathy regarding drafts and MfD generally that the jurisprudential practices there have turned it into a walled garden. The suggestions in WP:STALEDRAFT are particularly disconnected from reality. Redirecting drafts to mainspace articles that never had content from them, simply blanking drafts comprising unsourced BLPs, keeping and stubbing copied-and-pasted web content with no evidence of permission. These things would never happen in any other deletion process. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 19:57, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Reverting relistings by admins and demanding RFCs on the matter wouldn't happen elsewhere either. The problem is it's easy to come with the hypothetical "fearful user who returns after a decade distraught that the one-sentence text he started in 2007 was deleted" but that's not the reality. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:24, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
@A2soup's point hoaxes are one of many reasons the continued objections to cleaning up user space are inappropriate. We keep hearing that we should leave userspace alone, but there is copyvio, attack pages, and ofher issues there. Here is another example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pope_Pope/Aye_Phyu_Phyu_Aung -surely this should be kept in case she becomes a famous person and someone can use this as background material. Legacypac (talk) 21:28, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not convinced there's GAMING occurring here. Given how much these two edit on XfDs, I'd need a lot more evidence to be convince this wasn't just coincidence.
- How about we discuss an expiration date for stale draft pages instead? Frankly I buy the arguments above that there's no reason to keep old abandoned drafts, especially ones with minimal content. I'd think anything older than 3 years should just be deleted outright unless someone thinks it's remotely worth of stub or higher status in the mainspace and approaches GNG. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:48, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- The GAMING is apparent in Legacypac's comments in the MfD discussion: "If not deleted here I will promote to mainspace on the strength of the Keep votes." To which I (the sole Keep vote) responded, "Emphatically, I do not advocate promoting this article to mainspace in its present state - I am not arguing for that." Nonetheless, Legacypac moved the page immediately after MfD closure with the move summary "stale draft that survived MfD because editors refused to consider notability". If that's not evidence of the GAMING descirbed, I don't know what is. A2soup (talk) 22:03, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- See also the similar case of User:Abstractmindzent/Graffiki, which Legacypac moved to mainspace with the move summary "move to mainspace to subject to AfD to test notability- claims at MfD that GNG does not apply are too annoying". The best evidence for GAMING is Legacypac's comment here, in an MfD discussion where they explicitly lay out their plans for what they are doing now: "If you keep voting to keep draft articles on non-notable topics, I'll moved them into article space and AfD them. When they are deleted by the larger community thr dtaft turned in a redirect will be deleted too." A2soup (talk) 22:16, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- (ec) I have no objection to removing copyvio, atttack pages, and many other issues from userspace. I think that speedy deletion per WP:G12 (copyvio) and WP:G10 (attack pages) are more efficient avenues than MfD, and will sometimes say so, but I do not oppose those deletions. What I strenuously object to is deleting userspace drafts for notability issues, which was the question at stake in this case and the others that I have complained about. Non-notability in userspace is not problematic because the pages are not part of the encyclopedia and are not indexed in search engines (deletion discussions are indexed, so deletion ironically give these pages more visibility than they would otherwise have).
- I have yet to see a reason why deletion of non-notable stale userspace drafts benefits the encyclopedia compared to the alternatives of removing from the stale drafts category or blanking with {{Userpage blanked}}. In addition, it has the definite drawbacks of 1) taking up admin time, 2) increasing the visibility of the pages, 3) making material difficult to retrieve (even if the subject is not notable, some of the information may be useful in another article, which may not have been created yet), and 4) alienating editors, since userspace is generally considered a private workspace, as long as the work is not problematic.
- As a final note, Legacypac states above that they are "cleaning up user space". This practice is is in direct contradiction with WP:MFD, which states: "we do not delete user subpages merely to "clean up" userspace. Please only nominate pages that are problematic under our guidelines." That Legacypac is not only persistently disregarding this policy with their MfD noms of stale non-notable drafts, but also disregarding the policy through GAMEing tactics, is the subject of this ANI report. A2soup (talk) 21:57, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Regardless of the benefits of deleting userspace drafts, user pages are not private workspaces (see WP:UP#OWN). Users no more own their user pages than they do their contributions to articles. The only way to ensure information on Wikipedia is not changed or deleted is to keep it somewhere else. clpo13(talk) 22:12, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Considering how broken MfD is, referring to its landing page for an indication of the only ways in which it may be used is almost comical. It's not a policy page, or even a guideline page. It's a process description page referring to what is quite possibly the most broken deletion process right now. At the end of the day the entire purpose of userspace drafts (and draftspace drafts) is to write articles that will someday become articles. Okay, it takes up admin time: Let's create a CSD process if these pages are uncontroversially useless. It increases the visibility of the pages? A couple weeks listed at MfD is a joke compared to the years most of these have spent getting indexed by Google. Making the material difficult to retrieve is a reasonable complaint, but where we're talking about drafts that have no hope of becoming articles, there's almost never anything to retrieve. Finally, alienating editors? What's worse: Deleting a draft that has zero hope of becoming an article written by someone who created nothing else; or leading editors on by keeping a hopeless draft at MfD only for them to submit it to AfC to get declined again and again (or moved to mainspace where it gets A7'd or AfD'd immediately)? And how is unilaterally blanking someone's sandbox any less bitey? At least MfD gives an explanation beyond an edit summary, as well as shows an inexperienced editor that it wasn't some roving tyrant of an admin who shat on their userspace, but an actual discussion by more than one person. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 22:25, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Apologies if the answer to this is in the giant thread to this point, but why isn't indexing of drafts disabled? I realize that makes them less visible to editors who could help bring the draft to usefulness (though I wouldn't be surprised if that's never happened in the history of the universe), but maybe that's the dividing line between draftspace and mainspace -- in draftspace, someone's got to either get the thing to a minimally acceptable point on his or her own, or explicitly recruit others to help make that happen. Probably these comments will seem hopelessly uninformed to those who hang around the draft process a lot. EEng 22:45, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Actually, I just checked on it myself. Looks like userspace did get noindexed as of around November (though the INDEX magicword apparently still works there to override it), and draftspace is also noindexed by default (no idea when that was implemented). All that said, most of the disputes at MfD are over userspace drafts from before 2014. But on the other hand, MfD is also noindexed by default. So is all of AfD. So the whole argument about giving new prominence to something that should be deleted is kind of a wash (though I'd point out that virtually all the userspace drafts getting nominated were indexed for years before getting nominated, so even then... it's a drop in the bucket if MfD increases that prominence). —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 22:57, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Re "MfD is also noindexed by default." - Sorry, this just isn't true. I don't understand why you're saying it. I spend a lot of time googling stuff at MfD. Try it yourself, run these google searches on userspace drafts currently at MfD: [118] [119] [120] What comes up? Maintenance categories, deletion discussions, and not the page itself. A2soup (talk) 23:35, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Actually, I just checked on it myself. Looks like userspace did get noindexed as of around November (though the INDEX magicword apparently still works there to override it), and draftspace is also noindexed by default (no idea when that was implemented). All that said, most of the disputes at MfD are over userspace drafts from before 2014. But on the other hand, MfD is also noindexed by default. So is all of AfD. So the whole argument about giving new prominence to something that should be deleted is kind of a wash (though I'd point out that virtually all the userspace drafts getting nominated were indexed for years before getting nominated, so even then... it's a drop in the bucket if MfD increases that prominence). —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 22:57, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Apologies if the answer to this is in the giant thread to this point, but why isn't indexing of drafts disabled? I realize that makes them less visible to editors who could help bring the draft to usefulness (though I wouldn't be surprised if that's never happened in the history of the universe), but maybe that's the dividing line between draftspace and mainspace -- in draftspace, someone's got to either get the thing to a minimally acceptable point on his or her own, or explicitly recruit others to help make that happen. Probably these comments will seem hopelessly uninformed to those who hang around the draft process a lot. EEng 22:45, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Proposal. If the stale draft is not going to be deleted then it should be blanked. I will replace the draft with {{Userpage blanked|reason=stale}} Thoughts? QuackGuru (talk) 23:02, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Would support. Better and easier than deleting them through MfD. Can we get a threshold for "stale" though? If we can agree to a certain time limit, we could employ a bot to go through and do the work for us based on date of last edit. I mentioned 3 years as a limit above, but was just a number I pulled out of thin air. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 23:08, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- I think QG is just talking about the specific page that gave rise to this thread, which absolutely should happen. As a general principle I support 3 years after last edited, or 1 year after the editor stopped editing, whichever happens first. But I think anything we come up with here will get contested. I don't have a lot of faith that anything other than "leave it alone" will happen. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 23:16, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Mendaliv: I generally share your pessimism but it's something easy enough to propose and see what folks think. I'd be happy to start the proposal (on VP perhaps) and see where it goes. Don't think it will get far, but would rather try and fail then just let it continue as is. I think your extra 1 year stipulation is a good one. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 23:21, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- I can't find a policy for time limits. Time limits should be added to policy or we are going to end up at AN/I again when another stale draft is found. QuackGuru (talk) 23:23, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- User:EvergreenFir, VP is a good start. QuackGuru (talk) 23:24, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- @QuackGuru: Yeah, any policy change would have to be over at VP, right? Honestly though I think this mess of an ANI shows the problem well enough to justify a policy change. On another note, I support your proposal if you're just referring to this particular ANI filing. (Assumed/Misread that you mean all drafts and kinda ran with it). EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 23:27, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- User:EvergreenFir, VP is a good start. QuackGuru (talk) 23:24, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- I think QG is just talking about the specific page that gave rise to this thread, which absolutely should happen. As a general principle I support 3 years after last edited, or 1 year after the editor stopped editing, whichever happens first. But I think anything we come up with here will get contested. I don't have a lot of faith that anything other than "leave it alone" will happen. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 23:16, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- @QuackGuru: @EvergreenFir: @Mendaliv: I drafted a comprehensive RfC about stale drafts some time ago: User:A2soup/MfD RfC. As someone with a lot of experience with the locus of the conflict, I formulated it to address precisely the main points of disagreement. I was told that it would not be helpful, so I didn't open it. Perhaps we could post it to VP or an appropriate talk page? A2soup (talk) 23:41, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- As I've said before, I think an RFC on policy views is not going to accomplish a ton. If the people who actually !vote on each discussion afterwards make different opinions, are we supposed to disregard that in exchange for what an RFC came up with? We don't close discussions based on what the people in an RFC think the policy should be, we close based on what was actually discussed in the discussion. The bigger issue is eight year old userspace copies of mainspace are being opposed under the guise of "rudeness". It's one thing to disagree with deletion but another to just insult and criticize every nominator. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:06, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Ekantik/Shilpa Shetty is an example of a perfunctory nomination, with disregard to getting the facts of the details right. In short, it is an example of why the nominator cannot be trusted with his nominations. The error rate is too high. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:16, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- What is in the world is wrong with nominating an eight year userspace draft for an article that already has a biography of a living person out there? This is the textbook definition of WP:UP#COPIES. Are we supposed to just continue with changes to the templates, changes to the text and ignore the very real possibility of BLP violations because a user half a decade ago did some work? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:37, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- Sometimes your write sensibly, sometimes nonsense. Your textbook reading is incorrect, try reading it again. Independent creations on the same topic are not "COPIES". WP:UP#COPIES does not cover BLP problems, if there is a BLP problem, nominate on the basis of the BLP problem. What is wrong with nominating worthless harmless things? I may have forgotten to mention busywork, a failing you are obsessing with. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:46, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- What is in the world is wrong with nominating an eight year userspace draft for an article that already has a biography of a living person out there? This is the textbook definition of WP:UP#COPIES. Are we supposed to just continue with changes to the templates, changes to the text and ignore the very real possibility of BLP violations because a user half a decade ago did some work? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:37, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Ekantik/Shilpa Shetty is an example of a perfunctory nomination, with disregard to getting the facts of the details right. In short, it is an example of why the nominator cannot be trusted with his nominations. The error rate is too high. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:16, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- As I've said before, I think an RFC on policy views is not going to accomplish a ton. If the people who actually !vote on each discussion afterwards make different opinions, are we supposed to disregard that in exchange for what an RFC came up with? We don't close discussions based on what the people in an RFC think the policy should be, we close based on what was actually discussed in the discussion. The bigger issue is eight year old userspace copies of mainspace are being opposed under the guise of "rudeness". It's one thing to disagree with deletion but another to just insult and criticize every nominator. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:06, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- "Honestly though I think this mess of an ANI shows the problem well enough to justify a policy change" No, there is enough of a problem of flagrant disregard of consensus at MFD, WT:MFD, CT:CSD, WT:DRV, WT:N, to say that editors should stop WP:GAMEing to avoid inconvenient lack of consensus, and the so called "problem" of old good faith article drafts in userspace is entirely a manufactured non-problem. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:11, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- There is no functioning system to game here.
- If someone's random user subpage does not exactly fit a narrow reading of a CSD, we are not supposed to bring it to MfD for an ever changing batch of nonsense reasons. Then a couple editors vote to Keep random nonsense pages because they will not consider GNG, but object to a move to mainspace because in their opinion the topic does not pass GNG! That just proves they considered GNG, though they say they can't or will not.
- It makes sense that an active editor's new draft in userspace may not have enough refs or content yet to obviously pass GNG, so we give them a lot of leeway to work on it, but at some point after the editor is long gone, it is crazy not to make a judgement call on the page against GNG and then act on it. Editors who are actively cleaning up are met with attacks, insults, scorn and ridicule, and now dragged to ANi over a stupid situation the complaining editors created with their super narrow interpretation of guidelines.
- Wikipedia is a public space for all to enjoy, kind of like a park. The current situation is like bystanders throwing bottles and insults at volunteers removing trash from a park, claiming someone might come looking for the trash later. Legacypac (talk) 00:29, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- Your WP:GAME (openly declared as noted above) is to take a userpage not deleted at MfD (where WT:N affirmed that the WP:GNG does not apply), and move it to mainspace, knowing full well that it is not appropriate in mainspace, so as to see it deleted at AfD (where the GNG applies). WP:GAMEing is disruption. If you don't like consensus, you should abide anyway or seek to change it. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:52, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- First - I did not do that on the article you started this thread with. Second, if a draft article passes MfD it should go to mainspace and be tagged appropriately so it can be worked on by various editors. Let it sink or swim like everything else. Voting to Keep a page then arguing it is not notable is WP:GAMEing the system and is disingenuous. Legacypac (talk) 04:15, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Legacypac, SmokeyJoe, Ricky81682, A2soup, Clpo13, Mendaliv, and QuackGuru: I've typed up two versions of a VP proposal at User:EvergreenFir/sandbox7. On the talk page let me know what you think of them, if you prefer one over the other, see errors, etc. I'll move to VP after some feedback. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 00:54, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- "Editors who wish to keep their drafts despite not editing them for 3 years can easily revert the changes made and essentially reset the clock for another 3 years."
- User:EvergreenFir, another 3 years is too long. There must be a time limit. I suggest changing it to and reset the clock for no longer than one year." QuackGuru (talk) 01:33, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
I really don't like blanking because: -it is completely unilateral action by a single editor in an area likely no one is watching. there is no second set of eyes on the actin -it is exactly what we are NOT supposed to do to articles, talk pages and so on. -There is no value to the project, and the problematic material just stays a click away. -It leaves that stale page available to vandals to play with. -If restored, someone needs to find and delete the page anyway later Legacypac (talk) 04:15, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- Blanking doesn't need review because it is only an ordinary edit. Fear of vandals unblanking near-harmless pages in userspace is an unfounded fear. But if you don't like blanking, then don't. Userspace is no_indexed back rooms where users can have their private pages. Userpage vandalism does happen, but only for highly active editors who engage the vandals first. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:37, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- That's one view. Others have viewed blanking without notice as more disruptive than an actual MFD discussion. There's also no way to tell it's unfounded absent people watching the blanking. And as someone who has had to deal with users in the World's Oldest People space and various versions of Indian film biographies and the like, it is an unnecessary nuisance that can come back weeks and months later because it does not solve the actual behavior issues, namely instructing editors that they should either learn to work together on the mainspace version or go somewhere else. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:12, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Back on point
Let's get back to the main point here. Legacypac has been moving pages from userspace to mainspace, pages it seems like he doesn't believe will pass GNG. In Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Graffiki, Legacypac listed the page for deletion (but there was no discussion about the actual draft at MFD) but that discussion was largely more about the "move to mainspace and then list for deletion" and ultimately was deleted, arguments aside. Otherwise, there are two instances where I closed an MFD discussion as moot because the page had already been moved to mainspace and then I separately listed the pages for deletion, both of which resulted in them being moved, one to draft and one returned. Fine, you can say I should have been more aggressive with both MFD closes (moving Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Hershey890/Caring for our Watersheds to draftspace rather than let it go in mainspace and forcibly moving the other page back) but I think that's beyond my job here. There's no evidence other than the typical ridiculous speculation that this was some tagged-team effort to get the pages taken to mainspace for deletion and there's zero actual evidence that, other than Graffiki case, that Legacypac is actually moving these pages to mainspace to "game" them into an AFD for deletion. As seen above, we have some serious issues with the process at MFD which only can be solved with more eyes and people perhaps working out better explanation and methodologies than just accusing all the nominator (or also the admins closing these things) of being part of some grand conspiracy to I don't know "destroy" the userspace drafts from people who haven't been around here for years. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:45, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- You'd need to show that Legacypac is not doing this in good faith. A lot of pages hang around in userspace for ever and should be either nuked under CSD U5 or kicked over the line into mainspace to sink or swim on their own merits. If the user is active then there's no problem, but if all they have ever done is write a userspace article on their band or whatever then housekeeping takes over. Guy (Help!) 08:52, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Thank-you Guy. I'm not aware of any rule that says an editor can't start an article about something that turns out to fail AfD (most active editors have done that) and there is similarly no rule that says you can't promote a draft from draft or user space that fails an AfD. We have all been surprised that various articles pass or fail AfD so none of us have a perfect ability to predict what meets GNG. Legacypac (talk) 18:52, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- Fie on rules. The purpose of Wikipedia is mainspace. Everythign else is subsidiary. A user who has not edited in years, whose user space is cluttered with personal web space or advertorial, is not contributing. If a user in good faith believes these articles are intended by the user - who is no longer around to ask - as genuine attempts at encyclopaedia content, then what's the problem with moving them to mainspace? Regardless oft heir objective encyclopaedic merit, this can be charitably interpreted is an attempt to actually help a user achieve what they presumably set out to do. And if the page is a no-hoper, then inactive users don't get indefinite free web hosting. Guy (Help!) 00:41, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
I'm not convinced there's anything actually contrary to policy or that qualifies as gaming were Legacypac intentionally moving drafts to mainspace so they could be run through AfD. A long-untouched draft in draftspace or userspace that is kept at MfD carries a strong implication that MfD considers it viable as a possible article. If there's consensus at MfD that a draft is viable then Legacypac would only be acting in line with that consensus to push it to mainspace. If anything, the disruption is coming from MfD itself, which allows drafts about non-encyclopedic subjects to be kept because there's a consensus against broadly applying WP:N to draftspace and userspace. If there's a consensus that a draft cannot be moved to mainspace because the subject is not notable, then why are we keeping it? Wikipedia is an encyclopedia at the end of the day. Everything in WP:NOT bristles against the very idea that we should indefinitely host drafts of articles on non-viable subjects. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 22:23, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- User:Mendaliv, if that is you opinion, there is an open RfC at Wikipedia_talk:Notability#RfC:_Does_WP:N_apply_to_drafts_in_userspace_or_draftspace.3F awaiting your input. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:17, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Broaden NoIndex
Someone suggested broadening the No Indexing above. Let's no index MfD because it mainly deals with pages that are no index now. Also apply No Index to the stale draft category and similar. I don't know how to do that, but it would sure reduce how much prominance we are giving to junk by sending it to MfD. Legacypac (talk) 18:52, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- I reduced the header as I presume this is meant for the discussion above. I suggest that topic be taken to WT:MFD as it's not appropriate for ANI. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:05, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Probably no discussion necessary. MfD is already in the robots.txt. WP:NOINDEX seems to also argue that you might also want to NOINDEX those pages? I'm not sure. Pinging TheDJ who added that point to WP:NOINDEX. If correct, we'd want to add
<includeonly>__NOINDEX__</includeonly>
to{{Mfd2}}
. This would get all new MfDs, but not ones that are open now (since{{Mfd2}}
is substed), but those would get noindexed when closed. MfDs closed before September 8, 2009 probably don't have the NOINDEX flag either. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 00:40, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Probably no discussion necessary. MfD is already in the robots.txt. WP:NOINDEX seems to also argue that you might also want to NOINDEX those pages? I'm not sure. Pinging TheDJ who added that point to WP:NOINDEX. If correct, we'd want to add
Charlotte135's behavior
For months, Charlotte135 (talk · contribs) has repeatedly commented on me at the Charlotte135 talk page in inaccurate and disparaging ways. When I've pointed this out, noting that I would eventually do something about it, Charlotte135 continued, except in ways that do not mention my name; this is seen in spades in this section, which Charlotte135 retitled to take the focus from away from the topic ban. Charlotte135 also has a tendency to follow or track editors Charlotte135 has had significant disputes with, in ways I would categorize as WP:Hounding. For example, as noted here and here, with me, Montanabw and CFCF weighing in, Charlotte135 was hounding Shootingstar88 (talk · contribs). And before Charlotte135 claims that it was because of WP:Copyright issues, I advise editors to look closely at that matter; Charlotte135 had started following Shootingstar88 before the WP:Copyright issues drama Charlotte135 became a part of in that case. And now Charlotte135 is following me. And by that, I mean that Charlotte135 has scoped my entire contribution history and is choosing to edit articles I am clearly involved with, as seen here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here. As is clear by this inaccurate summary of my and Montanabw's editing, Charlotte135 is very aware of the type of articles I edit. Charlotte135 stated, "It seems that some editors primarily edit on topics like horses or sexual type topics and then cursory minimal edits on other types of articles to blur their POV pushing." That section shows that Charlotte135 was testing the waters when it comes to what Charlotte135 can edit. For one, the "cursory minimal edits on other types of articles" wording speaks to the way Charlotte135 edits; the vast majority of Charlotte135's edits have been to the domestic violence areas, and related areas, on Wikipedia. Since Charlotte135's topic ban, Charlotte135 has been making minor editors to other articles, as if to indicate "Look everyone, I'm not a WP:SPA. I'm branching out." For two, I mainly edit sexual articles, anatomy articles, medical articles, social topics and popular culture topics. And even though I edit many things on this site, Charlotte135 is suddenly popping up at the medical, sexual or gender articles that I heavily edit, including the obscure or relatively low-traffic ones, as seen with this edit made to the Vaginal disease article, and this edit made to the Facesitting article. Coincidence? I think not.
When Charlotte135's topic ban is brought up by me, such as in this recent case at Talk:Domestic violence, where I made a point to note that Charlotte135 was continuing a past dispute soon after the topic ban expired, Charlotte135 goes off on an irrelevant and inaccurate tangent about my block log, as if to try to paint me in a bad light and put us on equal bad footing; as seen here, administrator Boing! said Zebedee thankfully commented on my block log after I once again suggested that Charlotte135 actually get informed on my blocks before repeatedly commenting on them inaccurately. In that same section, I noted to Charlotte135, "You are clearly seeking a confrontation with me any and everywhere you can get it. [...] I will not agree to a WP:Interaction ban unless it's a one-way interaction ban where you are not allowed to comment on me or focus on any article I heavily edit. [...] Common sense should tell you to stay clear of me unless necessary. It's nothing but a WP:Hounding attempt by you. If I revert you at any of these articles, you get your confrontation. If someone else reverts me, and I revert back, you can simply show up and invalidly support that person's revert with the excuse that you've edited the article before. You are quite easy to read. Everything you do is so transparent (predictable) to me." As that section shows, Gandydancer and Johnuniq are also still concerned about Charlotte135's behavior. Whenever Charlotte135's disruptive behavior is addressed, Charlotte135 argues that I am simply being a bully, accompanied by a gang, and that my main goal is to discredit. In fact, Charlotte135 still fails to see any valid reason for the topic ban; this is evident all over Charlotte135's talk page. Charlotte135 plays the "I am the victim" card. And in this case at the Domestic violence talk page, Charlotte135 accused me of an agenda for removing a WP:Undue weight piece from the lead. I am at the end of my rope with this editor. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:39, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Note: I crossed out the Urolagnia article above, because even though that article was added to my watchlist because of my concern about this this IP who eventually became this editor, I have yet to edit that article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:56, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'll first of all point out that Charlotte135 has edited topics related to the female reproductive system at least as early as last November, while Flyer22 Reborn accumulates hundreds of minor edits to diverse articles daily. That there is some intersection is hardly surprising. The allegedly hounding edits do not seem to be in furtherance of any dispute on those pages, with Flyer22 or anyone else.
- The conflict between Charlotte135 and Flyer22 apparently began in October at Talk:Domestic_violence/Archive_5#Claim_about_male_self_overestimating with a content dispute that Flyer22 almost immediately personalized. I first encountered the issue at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_198#Domestic_Violence_article, where it became quickly apparent that there was a simple resolution to the content dispute. I noted at the time the solution could have been easily reached had Flyer22 simply stuck to commenting on content rather than contributors.
- Rather than accepting this resolution, Flyer22 continued to policy/forum shop by trying to get support from MEDRS Wikipedia_talk:Identifying_reliable_sources_(medicine)/Archive_21. Note especially how CFCF's opinion changes after Flyer22 tells him what to think. Subsequently CFCF began to edit war the policy page itselfWikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive904#Disruptive_editing_on_Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources_.28medicine.29_by_CFCF to make it agree with Flyer22. I don't know if Charlotte135's present accusations of canvassing can be supported, but Flyer22 and CFCF should definitely be regarded as a tag team wherever they appear.
- While my attention was elsewhere, Flyer22 brought Charlotte135 to ANI based on the insinuations that Charlotte135 was an MRA and impersonating a woman.[[121]] These are not policy-based reasons, and making these allegations was a conduct violation in itself. Astoundingly, Mark Arsten placed a 3 month topic ban on Charlotte135 rather than boomeranging as would have been appropriate.
- Flyer22's general style of interaction is to make arrogant and imperious demands, often declaring that their preferred changes are inevitable, and that their opponents are not competent to edit in certain areas. This gives the impression of attempting to intimidate editors and exert WP:OWNership of articles. This has in the past been directed towards myself, and is certainly still on display with regard to Charlotte135.[122][123][124][125] It can even be seen in Flyer22's presumptuous refusal to "agree to" a 2-way interaction ban.
- The above notwithstanding, Charlotte135 needs to drop the stick with respect to the question of symmetry or non-symmetry of genders in domestic violence. Regardless of the merits, its a point the community would like to move on from. I suggest a 2-way interaction ban and 3 month topic ban for both Charlotte135 and Flyer22. Rhoark (talk) 22:32, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Rhoark, you were on the opposite side of CFCF and myself in these disputes, as should be clear to anyone who does their research on the matter. You mischaracterized things then, and you have done it again now. Case in point: Editing "hundreds of minor edits to diverse articles daily" via WP:STiki and Charlotte135 having some overlap with me in that way is one thing. Charlotte135 specifically targeting articles that I heavily edit (in a way that mirrors a tab on my contribution history), and obscure or barely-active articles that I edit, is another thing. Two, there was no WP:Forum shop violation. Three, CFCF and I are not as closely aligned as you make us out to be; I didn't even fully agree with CFCF and his proposals (again...doing one's research is a virtue). Four, there were no simple solutions at the Domestic violence article talk page when it came to Charlotte135's involvement; anyone is free to see what happened at that talk page during that time; they are free to see that Charlotte135 repeatedly failed to accept the literature with WP:Due weight, would ramble on about editor bias, editors being so and so, and that multiple editors were frustrated with Charlotte135 because of all of this. They will see exactly what led to Charlotte135's topic ban from the article. Another editor (Ongepotchket) is just the latest person to note that Charlotte135 is disruptive there. So you coming here and defending Charlotte135 and acting like the proposal and consensus for the topic ban on Charlotte135 were baseless and uncalled for makes not a bit of sense. If you are going to come to WP:ANI and defend a highly disruptive editor, then at least make a better case than that. As for your claim that "Flyer22's general style of interaction is to make arrogant and imperious demands, often declaring that their preferred changes are inevitable, and that their opponents are not competent to edit in certain areas.", it has gone on my top ten list of false claims made on Wikipedia. I do not make imperious demands, unless it's telling someone to stay off my talk page or to stop making false and inaccurate claims about me, as Charlotte135 repeatedly does, or to stop editing disruptively. And I have usually only noted that my preferred changes are inevitable when interacting with Charlotte135, since my preferred changes are policy or guideline-based and Charlotte135's preferred changes usually are not, and since Charlotte135 will waste editors' time with talk of supposed bias and repeatedly make false commentary and accusations of POV-pushing for following the WP:Due weight policy, or some other policy or guideline. Furthermore, as many know, I have a very low tolerance for disruptive editors; I do not treat disruptive editors the same way that I treat productive editors (the top my user page and talk page are clear about that), and I never will. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:47, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oh, and as for Rhoark's claim that "Subsequently CFCF began to edit war the policy page to make it agree with Flyer22," I advise editors to read that WP:ANI thread, which didn't end in any kind of sanction against CFCF or consensus that CFCF was in the wrong. CFCF was restoring the guideline to what it was before it was changed without consensus. And as a number of medical editors agreed, the guideline supported my arguments anyway. But that's another discussion. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:13, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- There you go again Flyer22reborn. Aggressively belittling and demeaning other editors that simply disagree with you. What utter nonsense, following you. To the contrary, you have been following me. If I was interested in following you, why did I suggest this? [126]. As a number of editors have noted, you seem to hold a very strong POV in relation to these domestic violence related articles as did the blocked editor shootingstar88 whom you befriended and was indefinitely blocked for extreme copyright violations and opening the project up to potential litigation by the authors of this original material they copied and pasted. IMHO you are far too personally involved in this emotional topic of domestic violence for some reason. I think it would be best for the project if you, and I, accepted Rhoark's neutral advice, and we both walked from this topic not just one of us, but both of us. I just don't care, to be honest with you, but I do believe your personal opinions on the topic and aggressive ownership of the article are preventing other fair minded editors from making neutral edits based on what the reliable sources actually say. That may then allow other editors to make changes if necessary without you and I bickering over nothing. It looks like at least 2 other editors on the talk page also disagree with you, not just me, and countless others you have scared away. Here's editor OpenFuture commenting [127] So, what do you say? You and I can then edit other topics and stay away from each other. Sound fair?Charlotte135 (talk) 06:57, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- Note: And yet the inaccurate statements from Charlotte135 continue above. For example, there have been no number of editors who "have noted [I] seem to hold a very strong POV in relation to these domestic violence related articles"; instead, what a number of editors have noted is that I help keep out severe WP:Neutral violations (especially as they relate to that policy's WP:Due weight section), and correct editors who misunderstand that policy. My contribution history is also nothing like Shootingstar88's.
- Charlotte135, you are problematic when it comes to gender topics, and especially the domestic violence topics...period. Various editors have been clear about that. When various editors, ones not tied to men's rights activism, state the same thing about me when it comes to gender topics, and especially the domestic violence topics, then I will consider walking away from them. Right now, I am helping to keep the type of mess you want to add to these articles out of it. My supposed POV adheres to the literature with WP:Due weight. Your POV does not. The only true support you've had thus far is from those who are sympathetic to men's rights views or those who hold men's rights view. From here on out in this thread, I will not respond to you any further, since you cannot help but present matters inaccurately and tell falsehoods. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:39, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- And if you keep following me, despite your asinine denials, I will present a thorough case against you with diff-links making it explicitly clear that none of these articles you are suddenly showing up at are coincidental matters. And along with that thorough case, there will indeed be a proposal. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:44, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- As I say7 Flyer22, it is clearly you who has been following every edit I make. And just as Rhoark and so many other editors you attack, demean, threaten and belittle, I could, and should provide a detailed list of diffs whereby you have obviously followed me. You are far from neutral on these gender topics. Everyone knows this. Further you aggressively attack other editors and exhibit ownership behavior on these articles. I just decided to stand up to you, that's all. Why not just walk away now if you are so neutral and let other editors clean up yours and shootingstar88's mess? If you do, I will. I just don't care, to be honest. But remember, I actually suggested an interaction ban, two way, well before you posted here. As you carefully cherrypick your diffs to include and not include, just like your sources and editing language, that was something you did not include above. Many editors have pointed this out to you, but you don't listen and your disruptive behavior is scary to be honest. But Rhoark and so many other editors has already pointed this out.Charlotte135 (talk) 08:02, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- And yes, your own contribution history on these gender based articles, most of which I have not edited, is almost identical to blocked user Shootingstar88's. Absolutely, no doubt about it. If any editor wants to see an actual SPA and real POV pushing anyone should scrutinize carefully Shootingstar88's entire edit history, and you Flyer22reborn, helping them create it, and then your desperate attempts at trying to get them unblocked for their severe copyright violations that open the project up to potential litigation. Something you fail to understand. And as administrator Diannaa told you, it would take several months, and three hours a day to clean up, and you assured everyone you would do it, and actively prevented other editors from going near Shootingstar88's copyright violation mess, which still remains in these gender related articles. Yes, I do find that particularly disruptive and damaging to the project Flyer22. Litigation from authors of original work that editors copy and paste into articles, is a real and definite threat to the project Flyer22reborn. It's their original work. They own the rights. You don't seem to understand or care.Charlotte135 (talk) 08:18, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
As someone not involved in these broils, I think I might point out a trope or habit which consistently worsens things -- in my opinion, probably intentionally and unquestionably disruptively. Charlotte135 often replies to her adversary’s edits with direct address, and then repeats the name -- usually again with direct address -- later in the rebuttal, often as part of a rhetorical question. The effect is often to infuriate her interlocutor, first because it personalizes a content dispute, and second because English has a specific term for a rhetorical question posed in direct address. This is a taunt. The quality of breathless schoolyard taunting is accentuated because Charlotte135 often omits the comma required before the appositive direct address. We see all this in the paragraph above. We see it here [128]. It seems clear that either this editor wants to exacerbate tension or that their English (or perhaps their manners) are not up to the task of managing tension in these areas. There are lots of areas on Wikipedia that deserve attention -- biographies of women in the sciences, botanical articles on Australian plants.MarkBernstein (talk) 17:05, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- As someone peripherally involved, and therefore targeted by Charlotte135, I have to agree with Flyer22reborn and MarkBerstein that Charlotte135 engages in WP:BAITing, and has repeatedly engaged in tendentious editing followed by personal attacks against Flyer; Charlotte135 was topic-banned for their behavior and we are less than a week back and once again Charlotte135 is doing exactly the same thing -- inserting nonsense edits with a "men's rights" tone, claiming innocence and neutrality, then baiting opponents until they are ready to rip their hair out. This needs to be stomped on, now. I suggest at last a 60-day topic ban on Charlotte135 and if this editor fails to learn their lesson, then indef bans are appropriate. Montanabw(talk) 17:18, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- pinging Diannaa, since her name was invoked above. I'm sure her input would be clarifying. John from Idegon (talk) 18:19, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- Montana said it very well and I am in complete agreement with her. In fact that includes the "tear your hair out" comment as I've often thought the same thing myself. Editors should not be tested to the end of their patience, as Charlotte is always so good at. Gandydancer (talk) 18:26, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- pinging Diannaa, since her name was invoked above. I'm sure her input would be clarifying. John from Idegon (talk) 18:19, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- I've reviewed Charlotte's edits and I agree with the original posting and what others have said here. Charlotte is violating the spirit and letter of WP:HARASS, and is following Flyer around picking fights. Sanctionable and unwise, and something that Flyer seems to attract for some reason. I am with Monatabw and will make a proposal below. Jytdog (talk) 21:23, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Proposal
I'll take a step past what Montanabw proposes and simply propose a TBAN for Charlotte135 under the GamerGate DS with standard appeal available after one year. Jytdog (talk) 21:28, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- Apart from Rhoark's neutral, objective and detailed comments above, talking about Flyer22reborn's disruptive and aggressive behavior, all we have is literally the same set of friends of Flyer22, Gandydancer, Montabw and Jytdog falsely accusing me of following their friend Flyer22?? With no evidence. And even though, and well before Flyer22 posted here, I was the one who suggested a 2 way interaction ban, to stop Flyer22 and her friends following, harassing and bullying me.
- Obviously administrator Diannaa would be the only one to look at this please, and adjudicate and dare I say, have the courage as an administrator, to actually place sanctions on Flyer22reborn as well. I would respect their decision. However otherwise this is just like a gang at school bullying an individual for standing up to them, like Rhoark and others have tried to do, but got beaten down by Flyer22reborn's unrelenting aggression and fear tactics on Wikipedia.Charlotte135 (talk) 22:46, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- I also note that while Flyer22reborn and I are vacant from the domestic violence article, other editors are actually able to edit the article in the spirit of things. I hope this continues. However I fear that if Flyer22reborn were to be allowed to continue their editing at that article, they will again scare off other good faith editors trying to add content that is actually based on what the reliable sources say. Looking at the edit history on these articles Flyer22 seems to have engaged in many conflicts with many different opposing editors. And many editors have noted Flyer22reborn's lack of neutrality and POV pushing. Can I ask Diannaa to please consider a fair, reasonable and equal sanction here, based on Rhoark's neutral and detailed comments above [129]. I would agree with Rhoark's solution of "I suggest a 2-way interaction ban and 3 month topic ban for both Charlotte135 and Flyer22." The key word is both.Charlotte135 (talk) 23:06, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- I also notice that John from Idegon has pinged Diannaa, and said "her input would be clarifying." I think this is appropriate as I don't see how friend's of Flyer22reborn, (administrators or editors) could possibly make any neutral and fair decisions on this matter.Charlotte135 (talk) 23:30, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- I also note that while Flyer22reborn and I are vacant from the domestic violence article, other editors are actually able to edit the article in the spirit of things. I hope this continues. However I fear that if Flyer22reborn were to be allowed to continue their editing at that article, they will again scare off other good faith editors trying to add content that is actually based on what the reliable sources say. Looking at the edit history on these articles Flyer22 seems to have engaged in many conflicts with many different opposing editors. And many editors have noted Flyer22reborn's lack of neutrality and POV pushing. Can I ask Diannaa to please consider a fair, reasonable and equal sanction here, based on Rhoark's neutral and detailed comments above [129]. I would agree with Rhoark's solution of "I suggest a 2-way interaction ban and 3 month topic ban for both Charlotte135 and Flyer22." The key word is both.Charlotte135 (talk) 23:06, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- A question to administrators please? Is contacting other editors/friends off or on Wikipedia a form of Wikipedia:Canvassing? I have been reading the policy for a few days and I'd appreciate clarification. I must hastily add, so not again falsely accused of following Flyer22reborn, because once again they are over there at Wikipedia talk:Canvassing, fighting it out with another editor. Flyer22reborn is once again over there now, demeaning, belittling and mocking another editor. My question though stands as when I brought it up before with Flyer22 and her friends, they called it ridiculous, and demeaned my understanding of the policy. Just like they Flyer22reborn seems to be doing again at Wikipedia talk:Canvassing. I'd appreciate a neutral administrator to explain canvassing to me, especially here at ANI?Charlotte135 (talk) 02:05, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, Wow. However Jytdog, you are very often called upon or pinged, to partake and support Flyer22reborn's point of view. It happended in a few conversations I've had in the past with Flyer22. And I'm sure if I did go through your edit history, which I certainly can't be bothered doing, there would be other instances over the years. Once again, boom, here you all are, right on cue. Is pinging in this way, for support, esp here at ANI a form of Wikipedia:Canvassing? Probably best you don't answer. Same discussion is happening over at Wikipedia talk:Canvassing. When good faith editors like me and others wonder if this is allowed or how much weight, editors opinions who are pinged, off, or on, Wikipedia, it is a valid question Jytdog, despite your sarcastic "Wow," in an attempt to discredit, demean and belittle, my serious question. I realize I don't have your experience here, so please excuse my ignorance.Charlotte135 (talk) 03:19, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'm grateful for the good work that Flyer is doing and I hate to think what some of our articles would look like if she had not stepped in. I support Jytdog's suggestion re a ban. Gandydancer (talk) 03:40, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'm sure you are grateful Gandydancer but I'm pretty sure the project will survive, and other good faith, neutral editors, were allowed to got on with the job based on what the reliable sources actually say, in these emotional topics, if Rhoark's sensible, fair and workable solution, of a 2-way interaction ban and topic ban for both me and your close friend Flyer22 was applied.Charlotte135 (talk) 04:45, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Diannaa Can I ask administrator Diannaa to please consider a fair, reasonable and equal sanction here, based on Rhoark's neutral and detailed comments above [130]. I would agree with Rhoark's solution of "I suggest a 2-way interaction ban and 3 month topic ban for both Charlotte135 and Flyer22." The key word is both.Charlotte135 (talk) 23:06, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- A two-way interaction ban punishes the victim equally with the bully and is inappropriate; here it is crystal clear that Charlotte135 is the primary offender. I concur with Jytdog that perhaps admins could consider a TBAN for Charlotte135 under the GamerGate DS. We have a pattern of hounding and vicious attacks on multiple people, gaming the system and manipulating what has actually been said and done across multiple articles. This editor needs a different sandbox in which to play. Montanabw(talk) 06:18, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Save the further abuse and scary talk Montanabw. It is very clear on my talk page User talk:Charlotte135 under the Questions & Answers header that this was going to happen again, and me be ganged up on. Please don't be so rude and dismissive of Rhoark's neutral and detailed comments above [131].
- And why would I have suggested an interaction ban myself before Flyer22reborn posted here, if I was the bully. It is very clear the same old gang members or Wikipedia:Tag team are at it again. I knew this would happen though. That's why I tried to get advice from an actual administrator, Diannaa prior to being set up, baited and then dragged over here. This discussion on my talk page is here [132] and my reply to administrator Diannaa is here [133]. My only mistake was to take the old tag team's bait and then be dragged back in so Flyer22reborn could post it here and the rest of the tag team come in on cue, and comment. Flyer22reborn's aggressive ownership of these articles needs to be stopped and Rhoark's solution of a "2-way interaction ban and 3 month topic ban for both Charlotte135 and Flyer22." But as I said, both is the only fair solution and Diannaa is the best person to adjudicate, not you Montanabw. Charlotte135 (talk) 07:29, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- While some admins adjudicate disputes, I am not one of them. Dispute resolution is not something I am good at. Sorry, — Diannaa (talk) 19:01, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- The problem with interaction bans is that they can sometimes increase tension between editors. Some editors become vigilant about enforcing an interaction ban and viewing crossing paths with the other editor as harassment and then we are back at ANI, often on a regular basis as an editor seeks sanctions for violations of an I-ban. Admins want to defuse conflict, not take measures that increase it.
- It would be best if you two would voluntarily keep out of each other's way. These reappearances at ANI are not good for you, Charlotte135 or for Flyer22reborn. I would think since you are adults you could find a way to resolve this dispute without having to have admins imposing topic bans or blocks. You can see, by the fact that no admins have jumped into the discussion that there isn't a strong desire to impose sanctions on either of you. But that can change if you can't drop the stick and walk away. Liz Read! Talk! 21:29, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- While some admins adjudicate disputes, I am not one of them. Dispute resolution is not something I am good at. Sorry, — Diannaa (talk) 19:01, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- And why would I have suggested an interaction ban myself before Flyer22reborn posted here, if I was the bully. It is very clear the same old gang members or Wikipedia:Tag team are at it again. I knew this would happen though. That's why I tried to get advice from an actual administrator, Diannaa prior to being set up, baited and then dragged over here. This discussion on my talk page is here [132] and my reply to administrator Diannaa is here [133]. My only mistake was to take the old tag team's bait and then be dragged back in so Flyer22reborn could post it here and the rest of the tag team come in on cue, and comment. Flyer22reborn's aggressive ownership of these articles needs to be stopped and Rhoark's solution of a "2-way interaction ban and 3 month topic ban for both Charlotte135 and Flyer22." But as I said, both is the only fair solution and Diannaa is the best person to adjudicate, not you Montanabw. Charlotte135 (talk) 07:29, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
"Perun" IP on an OR spree at 37.201.xx.xx
I recently noticed an IP adding something unsourced about the supposed Buddhist heritage of a Gallic tribe. It turns out this is a dynamic IP editing as, among probably others:
- 37.201.4.42 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- 37.201.5.161 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Their history is full of comparable edits, adding unsourced (or blog-sourced) content about historic topics most often pertaining to Poland and the god Perun, often on its face unremarkable (but unverifiable) and sometimes quite strange, as here where they consider the current arrival of refugees in Europe a case of "germanisation".
Is anybody familiar with this individual or MO, and are admin colleagues of the view that action such as mass rollbacks or blocks should be looked into? Sandstein 09:10, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) Calling that original research sounds a bit overly gracious. Nonsense is more applicable, but a descent into bovine scatology may also be warranted. Kleuske (talk) 12:34, 20 March 2016 (UTC)s
- There's a number of Other IP's, too.
- 37.201.7.233 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Interesting first contribution.
- 37.201.4.161 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Moreover, Geradid (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) seems to have a very similar interest.
- There's also a fair amount of quacking going on. Is it duck season or wabbit season? Kleuske (talk) 13:51, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Give me a list of pages and I'll protect them. I'm pretty familiar with this Perun nonsense. Doug Weller talk 14:42, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry, I need to qualify that. It would have to be pages with recent multiple edits relating to this, I can't protect pages rarely edited by this person. I'm no good at range blocks sadly. Doug Weller talk 14:43, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- I don't have a list of affected pages, or if I did I'd protect them. @Doug Weller:, do we have a community ban on record somewhere so that this stuff can be reverted on sight? Sandstein 16:10, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Sandstein: Of course you would. Sadly no. This is the first time the Perun nonsense has been brought here. Doug Weller talk 17:08, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- I don't have a list of affected pages, or if I did I'd protect them. @Doug Weller:, do we have a community ban on record somewhere so that this stuff can be reverted on sight? Sandstein 16:10, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry, I need to qualify that. It would have to be pages with recent multiple edits relating to this, I can't protect pages rarely edited by this person. I'm no good at range blocks sadly. Doug Weller talk 14:43, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Give me a list of pages and I'll protect them. I'm pretty familiar with this Perun nonsense. Doug Weller talk 14:42, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Proposed community ban for the "Perun" disruptive editor
Let's make it official, then. For longterm disruptive editing by inserting unsourced and implausible content into historical articles, notably relating to the god Perun, the person who has edited from the IP range 37.201.xx.xx among others, as noted above, is banned from Wikipedia by the community.
- Support as proposer. Sandstein 10:42, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Yossimgim IPs
Yossimgim (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) continue trolling, edit-warring and lying in edit summaries using dynamic IPs (for now it's 79.176.91.230 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)). It's almost a month since discussion started here and here, and nothing been done. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 15:56, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Triggerhippie4: Still waiting for that SPI to get some admin attention, but what evidence do you have for this IP? Need to support accusation with diffs. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:24, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Disruptive editing to the F1 project
In October last year a report was made of an IP editor persistently disrupting the F1 project here. A block was issued for a week by user:Diannaa and two further blocks were subsequently issued by the same admin. The IP editor however has continued in much the same vein and several members of the F1 project have spent considerable amounts of time, trying to make something of his sub-standard submissions. There have been seven six recent drafts which have been found to be copy-vios two of which have been WP:TE re-submitted several times without fixing issues noted on review and also removing citation tags. There is a tremendous history of disruptive editing by this editor whose IP address changes sometimes more than once a day. He's now up to more than 100 different IPs in the ranges 92.21.240.0/20 and 88.106.224.0/20. Just some of the history of his edits can be seen at User talk:Bretonbanquet who has been one of the editors involved in 'tidying up'. We have tried several times to engage and leave helpful advice on talk-pages but it is not certain which of them he might have seen and he has been known to just blank the page. Here is a diff of him removing a talk page post by another editor and here is one example of an inappropriate edit summary, although he rarely leaves summaries. The F1 project would be grateful for any assistance you can give as we have run out of patience with this editor who has been given plenty of time and more than enough leeway to edit in a conventional manner. I apologise for the long-winded submission. Please let me know if you need any further info. Thanks. Eagleash (talk) 13:34, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
The latest series of posts on the subject at the F1 project is here. Eagleash (talk) 19:30, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
Earlier threads on the subject here and here. Eagleash (talk) 12:02, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- I second all of the above, and I can say I've rarely come across an editor who takes such little notice of notability guidelines, or indeed, any guidelines. He almost never engages with other editors, and when he does it's usually uncivil; he never uses talk pages or heeds advice, and creates a huge amount of work for others. He has created large numbers of articles and templates, all of which were either copy-violations, unreadable or not notable (or a combination of the three), and all of which required rewriting, merging or deleting by other editors. To make it worse, it's hard to track the guy's activity as he is forever switching IPs; so you can't talk to him or pin him down long enough to get him to understand how things work.
- This has been going on for a few months now, and some of us seem to spend all our time cleaning up after this guy, when we would rather be doing something more constructive. Any ideas will be gratefully received. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:26, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'm an AfC reviewer, and another issue that was brought to my attention regarding this editor was possibly gaming the system. Anonymous contributors are not allowed to create articles directly into mainspace—that's why WP:AFC was started. However, this user has tried to circumvent the standard AFC article review process by first requesting the creation of a redirect at Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Redirects, then turning the redirect into a non-notable article once it is created—effectively creating an article in mainspace. An example is with March 87P. At 20:12, 1 February 2016, the user submitted this request to WP:AFC/R, asking for a redirect from March 87P to March 87B. The issue is, at that time, March 87B was a redirect. Three minutes later, at 20:15, the same editor converts the March 87B redirect into an article, which was found to be non-notable. Then, a few weeks later, the redirect request was accepted, creating March 87P as a redirect, which an IP in the same range converted to an article about the same subject. Mz7 (talk) 22:31, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- In relation to the above post, the same editor has recently had deleted, a draft for Wolf Williams, as it was both non-notable and also a copy vio. A re-direct already exists for Wolf Williams to the Williams F1 page. A re-direct has now been requested for "Wolf Williams Racing" , which could mean further attempt to create a Wolf Williams page. Also in relation to the March 87P page, it had to be protected after the IP edit-warred over restoring the re-direct. Eagleash (talk) 22:48, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- Meanwhile, the IP keeps going on daily. It would be really appreciated if an administrator had a look into it our gave us some advice.Tvx1 22:52, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Anyone going to take a look? Tvx1 17:39, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Today, the IP inexplicably removed a mass of content from a F1 article. There's more disruptive editing to be found in their contribs of today. Will someone please take a look at this? Tvx1 18:07, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- The most recent contributions have been, I think, from the 92.21.250.0/24 and 92.21.240.0/22 ranges with no other contributions that I can see. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 01:32, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry but neither of the range-contrib tools I use is working right now, so I have no way to check for collateral damage. I last checked on February 20, when they were both busy ranges in the UK, too busy for a range block. (Adding) Regardless, issuing blocks for creating articles on non-notable topics is not something I am prepared to do. It's not a blockable offense in my opinion. — Diannaa (talk) 13:56, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- That's not the only type offense we're complaining about. It's also the unexplained removal of chuncks of content, persistent reverting of redirects, gaming the system, complete lack of intent to colleborate with us, etc...— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tvx1 (talk • contribs) 20:14, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
WP:INCIVIL and WP:BADFAITH behaviour by User:SchroCat
Would an admin cast their eye over the discussion at Talk:Works of Keith Floyd#Requested move 17 March 2016. I'm afraid I did rise to the bait a bit, but I think the stalking and harassment accusations are a step too far. --Rob Sinden (talk) 11:38, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- Bullshit. What a fucking waste of time. Sinden has followed SchroCat around like a fart in room. WP:BOOMERANG applies here, I would say. CassiantoTalk 19:40, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- I would suggest that other means of dispute resolution be followed here. Clearly this spat is of no interest in general, all concerned editors should play nicely from now on. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:42, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- I think Rambling Man is right. BLUDGEONING and INCIVL are present, but looks just like hot heads and bad blood. I'd also recommend everyone involved take trip to the fish market to select a nice refreshing trout to cool yourselves with. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 23:34, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but where is your evidence that I have followed anyone around? I made a simple WP:RM (that I happened upon because the article stuck out like a sore thumb in a category) and was subjected to the usual abuse[134][135] which has come to be expected from this editor, abuse which is then backed up by the usual suspects[136]. Heaven forbid if you try to make any kind of edit that to an article these editors have worked on. This kind of repeated behavior cannot be allowed to go unchecked. So I might be wrong in this case, so what? There is no need for the bullying. --Rob Sinden (talk) 08:57, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- I would suggest that other means of dispute resolution be followed here. Clearly this spat is of no interest in general, all concerned editors should play nicely from now on. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:42, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Personal attacks/harassment
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User:67.83.143.15 continues personal attacks despite requests to desist. Edit-warring was reported (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RRArchive310#User:67.83.143.151_reported_by_User:Woovee_.28Result:_Semi.29) and user was blocked for 48 hours. Once block was off, User:67.83.143.15 went right back to edit-warring with other editors (including Woovee and Mezigue), refusing to accept consensus, and posting lengthy diatribes (here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bauhaus_%28band%29) against other editors, including repeated personal attacks against myself. I am tired of editor's refusal to be civil and to desist from discussing my personal life in these lengthy posts. I have in turn been civil but my requests to stop making personal insinuations have been ignored and would appreciate some help.Greg Fasolino (talk) 16:11, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) I've redacted/collapsed some of their comments on the page per the talkpage guidelines. I also gave them a final warning for making personal attacks. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 20:47, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- Appreciated, User:The Voidwalker. It was starting to get out of hand and the prior block did nothing to make this editor more civil or willing to end their crusade. The personal commentary was a final straw and I even gave them one more chance to stop discussing my personal life instead of the page content. Thank you. Greg Fasolino (talk) 22:06, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Non-neutral RfC at Donald Trump
After a long Talk discussion regarding whether an edit at Donald Trump violates WP:original research, one of the involved editors initiated this RfC which IMO is outrageously non-neutral. I'm requesting that an admin take a look and decide whether that is indeed the case. Thank you.CFredkin (talk) 01:26, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- After numerous efforts to reach a compromise, there continued to be resistance to achieve consensus, even after language was proposed to provide the clarification that would answer the objections to the compromise. This language that is the subject of the dispute was reliably-sourced, was material to the article, and was crafted with compromise language made in good faith. After the nature of the objection to the compromise was revealed to be possibly politically-motivated, I asked for a RfC. That the RfC is being escalated here with an apparent intention for trigger negative repercussions for asking for a RfC shows that there could be a negative motivation here, possibly retaliatory. The record is clear about the discussion that took place on the Talk page, and the RfC was appropriate given the moving of the goalposts used to object to the good-faith compromise language. Maslowsneeds (talk) 01:47, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- The RfC does seem to be in the appropriate format of "include a brief, neutral statement of or question about the issue in the talk page section, immediately below the RfC template" (see Wikipedia:Requests for comment). It's confusing to know what this RfC is asking for for those editors who have not participated in the previous discussion. Liz Read! Talk! 01:52, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- The RfC describes the initiator's own efforts as being in good faith and using reliable sources, while suggesting that the opposition is affected by political bias. That doesn't seem neutral to me. It also completely mis-represents the issue raised by the opposition.CFredkin (talk) 02:09, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- For this RfC, I wasn't presuming to ask to be able to effect the compromise language before we received other opinions about the compromise language. The RfC was asking for other editors to comment about the compromise language. Because there were blocks to consensus, I was hoping that the input of other editors could help us reach a consensus. Maslowsneeds (talk) 02:12, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- The RfC describes the initiator's own efforts as being in good faith and using reliable sources, while suggesting that the opposition is affected by political bias. That doesn't seem neutral to me. It also completely mis-represents the issue raised by the opposition.CFredkin (talk) 02:09, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- The RfC does seem to be in the appropriate format of "include a brief, neutral statement of or question about the issue in the talk page section, immediately below the RfC template" (see Wikipedia:Requests for comment). It's confusing to know what this RfC is asking for for those editors who have not participated in the previous discussion. Liz Read! Talk! 01:52, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- The RFC doesn't actually help give any information that an outside viewer would need to make an opinion. It doesn't matter if you have 100 diffs about the efforts you've made unless your goal is to make it a puzzle for others to figure out your actual point here. Otherwise, it's not so not neutral as almost borderline useless. Point to the actual discussions and let people see for themselves, not just your comments. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:21, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- I think the RfC is mal-formed. The opposition to the content is based on WP:original research, since the sources for the content under discussion don't actually mention Donald Trump (with the exception of a WSJ article that actually states that Trump was not actively involved). The source of the disagreement is not accurately described at all in the RfC.CFredkin (talk) 02:33, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have no idea what each side is based on. A simple "I'd like to add this edit and here is the previous discussion" is all that's needed. This level of complexity you guys on all sides are making this is absurd. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:41, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- To bring clarity, I will copy down the compromise language (links to which exist in the RfC), and move to amend the RfC to ask people to approve the compromise language. Thank you for this feedback, and my apologies. Maslowsneeds (talk) 13:58, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have no idea what each side is based on. A simple "I'd like to add this edit and here is the previous discussion" is all that's needed. This level of complexity you guys on all sides are making this is absurd. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:41, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- I think the RfC is mal-formed. The opposition to the content is based on WP:original research, since the sources for the content under discussion don't actually mention Donald Trump (with the exception of a WSJ article that actually states that Trump was not actively involved). The source of the disagreement is not accurately described at all in the RfC.CFredkin (talk) 02:33, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Agree with the view that the RfC is mal-formed. I would propose closing the current RfC and starting over once agreement on the question is reached. Springee (talk) 14:19, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have copied the compromise language to preface the RfC, and editors are responding to the RfC on the talk page. Maslowsneeds (talk) 14:24, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with the filer. That RfC is not neutrally worded at all. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 18:43, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
User:96.58.203.254 and disrapaging edit summaries
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96.58.203.254 (talk · contribs)
This user's edits are reasonable (removal of self-published work), but the edit summaries are potentially libellous as they reference a living person (WP:BLP applies to all Wikipedia content, edit summaries included). ViperSnake151 Talk 03:17, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) @ViperSnake151: Thank you for bringing this up. I am going to refer some of the edits to the oversight committee per WP:OS#2. For any remaining edits, I suggest you contact an active admin who is willing to handle revision deletion requests (see Category:Wikipedia_administrators_willing_to_handle_RevisionDelete_requests). Let me know if you need any assistance in doing that by contacting me on my talk page. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 18:48, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Revdel applied to the edit summaries. Katietalk 18:55, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- @KrakatoaKatie: Imma forward you the email I just sent to OS. There's a couple others than need addressing. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 18:58, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Revdel applied to the edit summaries. Katietalk 18:55, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
DCG Company
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DCG Company (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - this user added false information into articles. He did the same both in Russian and Ukrainian Wikipedias. Раммон (talk) 06:08, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- DCG Company has been blocked by HighInBC --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 13:47, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
National Medals of Appreciation and Memorial
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An admin should move Wikipedia:National Medals of Appreciation and Memorial back to article space. The author mistakenly moved it to project space, perhaps in the belief that that was the way to publish. —teb728 t c 08:18, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Done Sandstein 08:38, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Editor's personal behaviour in Basque sensitive articles
This Basque conflict and prisoners articles have shown lately the intervention of the editor Asilah1981 (talk · contribs) with a long history of irregular editing. I should urge a prompt, conclusive intervention, the editor has lately engaged in some kind of campaign regarding these sensitive articles with no attention to detail whatsoever, breach of civility, extremely charged, confrontational style, personal attacks, and eventually threats against myself, leading to an unacceptable risk of lack of freedom to edit. He was warned by another user both of his behaviour and editing stye, but the editor remains basically the same. Thanks Iñaki LL (talk) 08:25, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
another user and me have no issue, we are both editing articles together productively, despite an initial misunderstanding. These are not "Basque sensitive articles". They are two ghost articles which have been surreptitiously written by ETA apologists, particularly the article Basque National Liberation Movement Prisoners, which is clearly not under the supervision of more than two wikipedia editors - Iñaki LL and the original editor who has deleted his account (or has been blocked, I don't know). The entire article is written in language which exalts, justifies and expresses sympathy towards Basque terrorists ETA. It is largely unsourced except using pro-ETA sources. Its entire objective is to pass-off individuals in Spain condemned for murder, attempted murder, kidnapping etc.. for political prisoners of some sort. The opening paragraph is, in its entirely, a justification for ETA's existence and actions.
My "personal attack" against Iñaki LL was a indeed a bitter comment in Spanish (you are welcome to google translate it), following his systematic reverting of me removing a couple of the more outrageous statements in the article (the whole article is outrageous and offensive). He is offended by me stating he is an ETA apologist, when he has positioned himself as the defendor of this article in its current form. I stick to that claim and remind him that he is a citizen of Spain, a democratic country, where in our criminal code breaking law 10/1995 of 23 November is punishable with a prison sentence of one to two years: 'the exaltation or justification of terrorism by any means of public expression or diffusion.' You can find this in articles 571-578 of our criminal code. Wikipedia may not be censored but it is my duty as a citizen of Spain and the European Union to warn my fellow country men when they are breaking the law in a pretty vile way, particularly today when the continent is yet again hit by this scourge. Thank you.Asilah1981 (talk) 09:48, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- I can see there has been a heated discussion at Talk:Basque conflict#Spin-off Article drafted by ETA sympathisers but, Iñaki LL, I don't see that you presented any evidence/diffs of misconduct. I recommend that if you all have reached an impasse, that you move the discussion over to Dispute Resolution where a mediator can help you move to a resolution over content disputes. Liz Read! Talk! 14:44, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Asilah, as I said to you on the Basque conflict page, I think you raise valid points, but I can tell you from many years' experience editing in that area that labelling people that disagree with you "serial terrorist apologists" is ill-advised, unlikely to persuade opponents or neutrals, and is a personal attack and sanctionable. Similarly, this edit where you say: "The (Spanish) state prosecutor can't act against Wikipedia, but they can act against individual editors if the offence is committed on Spanish territory. So if you are going to continue pursuing this with me, make sure you are not currently in Spanish territory" is really unhelpful, verging on a legal threat. Your input in that area is important, but you can make your points without attacking or issuing veiled threats against other editors. Valenciano (talk) 15:11, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
User:Laberkiste
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This user canceled my justified edit in the article March 2016 Istanbul bombing without stating any reason. The reason for my edit is quite clear: a terrorist is not a victim (really by definition) and wikipedia can't present him in such way.
I contacted him in his talk page in request that he will state the reason for his edit. He immediately removed the talk. That fellow user must realise that he can't ignore other people edits (and primarily unsigned users) without a providing a reason.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.183.114.192 (talk) 09:43, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment)This [137] is how you "contacted" him on his talk page. A level 4 warning? --Lemongirl942 (talk) 10:58, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- 79.183.114.192, you should not accuse another editor of vandalism and threaten them with a block because of a single disagreement over content. Your complaint also doesn't belong at ANI. You should discuss your difference of opinion with Laberkiste on the article talk page, Talk:March 2016 Istanbul bombing. I am sure there are other editors working on this page who would like to participate in a discussion over this issue. Liz Read! Talk! 14:39, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Emily Temple-Wood
Looks like we have at least three (3) different editors reverting each other back-and-forth within the last 24-hours.
I couldn't report it to WP:RFPP because it's an ongoing WP:AFD discussion.
Not sure what step is appropriate next, but probably some admin action is required here to stop the ongoing disruption of the currently open deletion debate.
Thank you,
— Cirt (talk) 15:08, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- No action required. Nobody has violated WP:3RR. sst✈ 15:12, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Page history shows swift succession of reverts and undoing each others' edits within a short spate of time -- certainly appears to be ongoing disruption of the page itself. — Cirt (talk) 15:14, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- The whole discussion is a mess, including sections unrelated to the discussion of the notability of the article. Some votes and the relist template are placed incorrectly in these discussion sections, which may be confusing for editors wanting to vote in the discussion. You may review my edits to determine whether they are neutral and appropriate. Thanks. sst✈ 15:18, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'll respectfully defer to previously uninvolved admins to review the recent disruptive history of the deletion debate page. — Cirt (talk) 15:20, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- As much as I would like to intervene as it appears that I'm an uninvolved admin that has been watching the article, I have a COI here so I am intentionally avoiding the discussion (except for the metadiscussion comment that I added about why I hate the concept of relisting in general) --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 15:38, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'll respectfully defer to previously uninvolved admins to review the recent disruptive history of the deletion debate page. — Cirt (talk) 15:20, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- The whole discussion is a mess, including sections unrelated to the discussion of the notability of the article. Some votes and the relist template are placed incorrectly in these discussion sections, which may be confusing for editors wanting to vote in the discussion. You may review my edits to determine whether they are neutral and appropriate. Thanks. sst✈ 15:18, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Page history shows swift succession of reverts and undoing each others' edits within a short spate of time -- certainly appears to be ongoing disruption of the page itself. — Cirt (talk) 15:14, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
People forget that you are not entitled to three reverts. --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 15:42, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Thanks Cirt. SST has now significantly reordered other users' comments three times for no obvious reason. Guess we're gonna just let it happen? Townlake (talk) 15:46, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Cirt it seems like your objection is to SSTflyer's reversions and reordering of content, is that your complaint? Liz Read! Talk! 15:47, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
for no obvious reason
I think I have clearly explained my rationale for such reordering in my edit summaries. Some of the votes, and more importantly the relist note, are placed in the discussion sections. Placing them back in the discussion about the notability of the article ordered based on when these comments were made is beneficial. My edits are similar to comment rearrangements that have been done at RfAs. I am frankly surprised that this gets to ANI. sst✈ 16:05, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Holy god this whole thing is a waste of time. I really don't give a single fuck as to whether or not I have an article, but please, everyone, consider writing an article about a kickass lady or LGBT person or POC or something instead of wasting your time arguing about me. Please. Keilana (talk) 15:51, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'd offer up to close the AfD and try to forestall additional bickering but I think Ymblanter makes the salient point that getting a group or triumvirate together to try and hammer out a good close would be ideal. Anyone else feeling like there isn't enough drama in their lives and want to chat about it? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 15:52, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Why bother wasting the time? Its a foregone conclusion no one is going to close it as delete regardless of the policy backed arguments. It will be no-consensus to delete and so it will be kept. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:55, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- It does look like a no-consensus decision would be appropriate although I'm guessing that this would then result in a second deletion discussion within six months. Speaking generally, a no-consensus decision sometimes just acts as a "on hold" button for those editors who advocate deletion of an article.Liz Read! Talk! 15:59, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Well, let's see in six months. I agree it's time for this to end. No consensus is the clear result. Townlake (talk) 16:02, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- And therein lies one of the problems of AfD that I really should raise elsewhere at some stage. The burden for inclusion should lie with those who want to include, not those who do not. No consensus should = delete, not keep. Anything that is borderline is, by definition, at the extreme margins of what might be considered encyclopaedic. - Sitush (talk) 16:29, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Well, the same argument could be made for the opposing side. If you can't get a solid delete vote then it should stay. Now, if the article included the winning word from the DuPage County Spelling Bee, that might make it a notable article. Sir Joseph (talk) 17:28, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Actually sometimes for BLP's a no-consensus does result in a delete due to the wishes of the subject tipping the balance. So this would actually be an appropriate time for the subject to make those wishes known. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:43, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Indeed,; but unfortunately the subject's own opinion doesn't really help us! Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 17:51, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- It does look like a no-consensus decision would be appropriate although I'm guessing that this would then result in a second deletion discussion within six months. Speaking generally, a no-consensus decision sometimes just acts as a "on hold" button for those editors who advocate deletion of an article.Liz Read! Talk! 15:59, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Why bother wasting the time? Its a foregone conclusion no one is going to close it as delete regardless of the policy backed arguments. It will be no-consensus to delete and so it will be kept. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:55, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- And why is this at ANI? SSTflyer BOLDly did the major refactoring the debate [138], then I reverted [139], and SSTFlyer then just opted to (reasonably) move the misplaced stuff around [140], at which point he was knee-jerk reverted by Townlake [141]; SSTflyer reverted [142] explaining in the edit summary that it has to be uncontroversial (and it stuck). I disagreed with SSTflyer in the debate, but he didn't do anything particularly improper here. So please, let's not make ANIs out of molehills. No such user (talk) 16:02, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- He moved some stuff to make it look like Aus and I were having a longer convo than we actually were. An absolute no-no. So I object to your characterization of my revert as knee-jerk. Townlake (talk) 16:04, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Non-specific threats
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
By 59.96.134.250 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Part redacted. —SMALLJIM 15:55, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Problem about not complying with WP:OPENPARA guideline
I am asking the intervention of an admin at the page Joseph-Louis Lagrange, since User:Sapphorain, against the WP:OPENPARA guideline, is inserting a double nationality in the lead of the article. WP:OPENPARA is quite clear about that:
"if (the person is) notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable."
In this specific case, Lagrange became notable when he was still in Turin, reached the apogee of his fame in Berlin, then went to Paris, where among others he became French citizen. Notability was reached in Italy, so only the Italian nationality should be mentioned in the opening paragraph (not elsewhere, of course).
One thing should be clear: the rule established at WP:OPENPARA is crucial to avoid edit wars (well, most of edit wars ;-)), and does not allow the mentioning of double nationality in the lead. A famous case was the article about Enrico Fermi, object of edit wars for years among Italian and American Nationalistic POV pushers, until a user invoked the rule. After that, the lead of Enrico Fermi reached its stability. Of course this rule does not go always to the advantage of Italians: in other cases (i.e. at Riccardo Giacconi, Richard Rogers, Andrew Viterbi) I had to remove (several times) the Italian nationality from the lead. The rule is not perfect, but if someone is not happy about it, he/she should open a thread on the related manual of style discussion page, instead of edit warring.
About Lagrange, the correct version (with the Italian nationality) until before yesterday had a remarkable stability, showing that in this case there is consensus (that is, the rule was well understood). The double nationality was introduced before yesterday by another user ([143]) and after my revert with edit summary invoking WP:OPENPARA, by Sapphorain ([144]) I reverted again to the stable version inviting User:Sapphorain on his talk page to open a thread on the discussion page of the manual of style ([145]), and offering my support in case he had proposed the introduction of the possibility of a double nationality in the lead. As answer, he reverted again, accusing me of dishonesty ([146]). After that, I think that the intervention of an admin is necessary,at least to explain to the aforementioned user how this guideline works. Alex2006 (talk) 17:13, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- (Non-admin observation) Sounds like a content dispute to me. Joseph2302 (talk) 18:21, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- No, the subject is the refusal of complying with a guideline. None disputes that Lagrange some years before dying got the French nationality, but WP:OPENPARA compels to put only one nationality in the lead. WP:OPENPARA is a guideline, this means that it should be enforced, if necessary. Alex2006 (talk) 18:27, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Guidelines never compel anything. If you read the guideline you'll see this is the case. Thincat (talk) 19:01, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Then what does this mean?
- "Enforcement on Wikipedia is similar to other social interactions. If an editor violates the community standards described in policies and guidelines, other editors can persuade the person to adhere to acceptable norms of conduct, over time resorting to more forceful means, such as administrator and steward actions." This is exactly what is happening in this case: after having failed with the persuasion, explaining what the guideline says, now I am asking for an admin intervention. Alex2006 (talk) 19:27, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- The citation of WP:OPENPARA is incomplete. It reads: "In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable." The interpretation is very difficult in the case of Lagrange, and the best solution is to mention both nationalities in the lead. Alex2006 would be right if Lagrange were notable "mainly for past events" (past events that took place in Italy before he moved). But it is not the case. Although he became notable in Italy, he is not notable mainly, but also, because of what he did in Italy. Sapphorain (talk) 19:51, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry, but "mainly for past events" has nothing to do with the fact that he moved or not abroad. The nationality which goes in the lead, is the one that the person had when he became notable, period, and the case of Lagrange is not "very difficult" (why difficult?), but crystal clear: Lagrange became notable already in Italy (the King of Prussia named him in his invitation letter "the foremost mathematician in europe"), and his notability increased above all when he was in Berlin, and in that period he remained an Italian working in Berlin. In other words, the question is: if Lagrange would have died during his trip from Turin to Berlin, should still deserve his article on an Encyclopedia? If the answer is yes, then he shall be defined as Italian. Moreover, the guideline says that only one nationality should be mentioned in the lead, not two (otherwise I would have no problem in describing him in the lead as Italo-French) and this should be the Italian. BTW, I arose the issue of the double nationality already a couple of times in the manual of style discussion page, but I have been plainly ignored by the many contributors, the main reason being possibly that people who brings this issue are usually nationalistic POV-pushers: Italians who want to define Richard Rogers as Italo-British, Americans who would like to describe Enrico Fermi as Italian-American, and so on. This means that there is a strong consensus regarding this guideline. As I wrote above, if Sapphorain does not agree with this guideline, he can open a thread on the discussion page of the Manual of Style, and I can help him, but he should refrain from edit warring and keep the last stable version in place until the general discussion about this guideline has not been settled. Alex2006 (talk) 21:07, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- The citation of WP:OPENPARA is incomplete. It reads: "In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable." The interpretation is very difficult in the case of Lagrange, and the best solution is to mention both nationalities in the lead. Alex2006 would be right if Lagrange were notable "mainly for past events" (past events that took place in Italy before he moved). But it is not the case. Although he became notable in Italy, he is not notable mainly, but also, because of what he did in Italy. Sapphorain (talk) 19:51, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Guidelines never compel anything. If you read the guideline you'll see this is the case. Thincat (talk) 19:01, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- No, the subject is the refusal of complying with a guideline. None disputes that Lagrange some years before dying got the French nationality, but WP:OPENPARA compels to put only one nationality in the lead. WP:OPENPARA is a guideline, this means that it should be enforced, if necessary. Alex2006 (talk) 18:27, 22 March 2016 (UTC)