ElComandanteChe (talk | contribs) →Islamic POV-pusher: Negi |
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The personal attacks seem to suggest that the user might be a sockpuppet (not necessarily intentional) of [[User:Negi(afk)]] who was blocked for making personal attacks on the AfD. I've [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Negi(afk)|opened an SPI investigation]] (see there for links to previous ANI discussion related to personal attacks made on this AfD). —[[User:Tom Morris|Tom Morris]] ([[User talk:Tom Morris|talk]]) 12:15, 2 April 2011 (UTC) |
The personal attacks seem to suggest that the user might be a sockpuppet (not necessarily intentional) of [[User:Negi(afk)]] who was blocked for making personal attacks on the AfD. I've [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Negi(afk)|opened an SPI investigation]] (see there for links to previous ANI discussion related to personal attacks made on this AfD). —[[User:Tom Morris|Tom Morris]] ([[User talk:Tom Morris|talk]]) 12:15, 2 April 2011 (UTC) |
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:Just to note, Negi(afk)'s block expired this morning and suddenly personal attacks start appearing in the AfD. That's why I opened the SPI investigation: if I'm right about the sockpuppetry, he's not evading his block (since it has expired), but moving from one account to an IP in order to not get speedily blocked for carrying on the same behaviour. —[[User:Tom Morris|Tom Morris]] ([[User talk:Tom Morris|talk]]) 12:17, 2 April 2011 (UTC) |
:Just to note, Negi(afk)'s block expired this morning and suddenly personal attacks start appearing in the AfD. That's why I opened the SPI investigation: if I'm right about the sockpuppetry, he's not evading his block (since it has expired), but moving from one account to an IP in order to not get speedily blocked for carrying on the same behaviour. —[[User:Tom Morris|Tom Morris]] ([[User talk:Tom Morris|talk]]) 12:17, 2 April 2011 (UTC) |
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:: Your theory doesn't hold water since I've been logged in to my account all morning. I'm also not afraid of getting speedily blocked. I'll personally attack you right now, if you want, just to prove my point. [[User:Negi(afk)|Negi(afk)]] ([[User talk:Negi(afk)|talk]]) 17:15, 2 April 2011 (UTC) |
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== Achmednut321 == |
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India v. South Asia
The following editors have, IMO, gamed the system to have their way when the broader Wikipedia community opposed a move request, something which all of them had supported.
- Mar4d (talk · contribs · block log)
- Athenean (talk · contribs · block log)
- Fowler&fowler (talk · contribs · block log)
- Gun Powder Ma (talk · contribs · block log)
- Huon (talk · contribs · block log)
Neutral and uninvolved administrators are requested to evaluate the situation, rectify it (by deleting List of South Asian and discoveries and restoring List of Indian inventions and discoveries to a state where content was not removed due to "duplication") and take appropriate action against the editors per WP:GAME and WP:FAITACCOMPLI.
Timeline
- Around March 19th, Fowler&fowler made a move request to move the article titled List of Indian inventions and discoveries to List of South Asian inventions and discoveries (which was a redlink till very recently).
- By March 27, the move request had more or less failed but it was still open when Fowler&fowler encouraged User:Mar4d to go ahead and create List of South Asian inventions and discoveries. Mar4d did so soon afterward.
- On the basis of this newly created article/list, Gun Powder Ma started removing content from the original List of Indian inventions and discoveries calling it "double entries" because the same or similar content now existed in the newly created List of South Asian inventions and discoveries.
- Because the move request was still open and newer people were still arriving at the discussion to oppose the move ("WP:FAITACCOMPLI", 2nd oppose, "no consensus"), I pointed out that this was a case of gaming the system and WP:FAITACCOMPLI (also pointed out by another editor) and reverted the removals. My revert was then undone by User:Athenean.
Zuggernaut (talk) 00:50, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- For my part, I was fooled by the proposed move template, which states: "The discussion may be closed after 7 days of being opened, if consensus has been reached." Seven days had elapsed, and consensus seemed to have been reached on a proposal almost everyone agreed on before the first of the "new" oppose !votes Zuggernaut links to arrived. RegentsPark pointed out that Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions actually has a little more to say, which I acknowledged here. I still don't think that implementing a solution which at that time almost anybody but Zuggernaut agreed on counts as gaming the system. Huon (talk) 01:56, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- Ditto. I too was under the impression that a valid consensus had been reached on the talkpage (Not counting a couple of !votes, it was 8-2 or something like that at the time). Moreover, Zuggernaut's revert undid several valid, unrelated intervening edits, which I found inappropriate. Combined with the absence of any talkpage posting by this editor, but instead canvassing [1] [2], and spurious accusations of "gaming the system", I deemed his revert disruptive and undid it. In general, it is my impression Zuggernaut has been disruptive in this discussion, as he has canvassed [3] in non-neutral fashion (note the wording), launched into personal attacks against others [4] [5], and largely been absent from the discussion only to return a week later to claim "consensus" (and then more canvassing). Athenean (talk) 02:18, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose and support positions were running neck and neck right from the start and at almost no stage of the move proposal was there any consensus. So even before the new votes arrived it was clear that the move was doomed. As for Athenean and you not understanding the text in the move template ("The discussion may be closed after 7 days...) and pursuing another 'solution' with an identical title could have be viewed as a problem of competence if [you were newbies but given that both of you have thousands of edits on Wikipedia over the years, it is a clear case of gaming the system. You should be topic banned from editing articles on Indian history. I see that revert/edit warring has been a pattern with Athenean as is reflected by his block logs. More recently this person received an interaction ban as a part of Wikipedia:ARBMAC enforcement. A topic ban on Athenean will help us all keep the focus on improving articles in the limited time we have. Zuggernaut (talk) 03:02, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, if anyone needs to be topic banned for the sake of progress, it is you, for canvassing, assumptions of bad faith, major incivility and general disruption on this topic (and now mudslinging by bringing up something completely unrelated to this topic). Talk about gaming the system. Athenean (talk) 03:36, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- Don't be under the impression that you will get away by obfuscating the situation. Let's wait until what other admins have to say and if either of us are not satisfied with the outcome of ANI, we can start take it through WP:DRR where Fowler is headed anyway and you can come along as well. Zuggernaut (talk) 04:04, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, if anyone needs to be topic banned for the sake of progress, it is you, for canvassing, assumptions of bad faith, major incivility and general disruption on this topic (and now mudslinging by bringing up something completely unrelated to this topic). Talk about gaming the system. Athenean (talk) 03:36, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
(unindent) Zuggernaut, was not a part of the regular discussion on the Talk:List of Indian inventions and discoveries page. He has an old gripe with me from the Talk:India page and was there in the "inventions and discoveries" discussion for only one purpose, and that was to oppose me. Unfortunately for him, he managed to confess said purpose in one of the rare posts he made on that page. Said he, crossing in the process the line between reality and fantasy several times:
"It has nothing to do with your opposition to the project proposal and more to do with your patronizing and arrogant attitude which you have repeatedly displayed on Talk:India. In addition, I will scrutinize each and every proposal coming from you on my watchlist for your strong and demonstrated anti-India, pro-British bias. Your edits throughout Wikipedia demonstrate this bias and have included separating out Indians and British by ethnicity when the situation is ugly so you can put the blame on those of Indian ethnicity ..."
This means, of course, that if I support/oppose something, Zuggernaut will naturally oppose/support it, on the logic that I am demonstrating my anti-India and pro-British bias. What "India vs. South Asia" has to do with it, beats me. If anything, "South Asia" is more American and international usage, Britain (still fondly remembering its Indian empire in the haze of an after dinner pipe and port) would likely go for "Indian." As for the real discussion that began on March 1, there were some regular discussants; these were: Gunpowder Ma, Athenean, Huon, SSeagal, Mdw0, Wikireader41, SpacemanSpiff, Mar4d. In this discussion, Zuggernaut made two appearances, both on March 1 (his first ones); once in a humorous vein and the other to (predictably) protest my tagging the article. He then disappeared for three weeks, while the regular discussants labored through all the permutations and combinations of words in the various proposed names. They considered stopping the "List of Indian inventions ..." at 1947, they considered Gunpowder Ma's proposal to create a new "List of inventions and discoveries in the Indus Valley Civilization," ... Predictably, Zuggernaut was absent from all those discussions. However, when I finally proposed a page move, Zuggernaut was the first one to register an "oppose," confessing, in the process, the real reason (quoted above) for his appearance.
He then canvassed. At first, in this somewhat provocatively worded post on the "Noticeboard of India related topics" in the hopes that putatively "Indian" editors there would naturally oppose a page move in which their beloved "India" was being deleted. When the editors there didn't bite, he appeared in this discussion, accompanied by music from the Twilight Zone, on the Talk:India page. His fellow conspiracy theorist there has meanwhile added an oppose vote as well, having been no part of the "India vs. South Asia" discussion.
Now for the page move and the votes. First, the page has not been moved. My proposal was not implemented. What has been implemented is Gunpowder Ma's proposal. That proposal had 8 support votes—not just the six who supported my proposal, but also Shovon76 (who merely commented on my proposal) and AshwiniKalantri (who opposed my proposal). In other words, we reasoned that the vote count among the regular discussants one week later for Gunpowder Ma's proposal, which did not involve any explicit page move, was 8 to 2 not including Zuggernaut's drive-by vote.
Sadly, for Wikpedia there is now a type of editor, of which Zuggernaut is a good example, who spends his energies not in adding content (Zuggernaut has added precious little (read zero) to the "List of Indian invention and discoveries" page), or for that matter to the India page, but in holding forth every now and then on the deep ideological biases involved in the work of those who actually do add content, and in leaving no stone unturned in their path to help them trip. As the New York Times reported last year, a large proportion of Wikipedia editors left in 2010. I'm afraid that trend is only going to continue if Wikipedia doesn't stop a handful of disruptive editors from heeding the clarion call of their conspiracy theories. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 07:28, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- Per Fowler&fowler. Zuggernaut was mostly absent from and participated little in the discussion, realized too late that a consensus had crystallized and is now trying to undo community consensus via the noticeboard. I don't see any bad faith on the part of the users listed above, all has been only done after lengthy discussions taking over two weeks. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:22, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- Sigh. Another tedious encounter with our modern-day Indian wiki-nationalists. Zuggernaut has arguably merited a page-ban for stalking Fowler - which is, self-admittedly, his entire reason for being there - and CarTick apparently lacks the ability to follow a coherent argument. Someone really needs to sort this out and deal with the issues of consensus-stacking, canvassing, harassment and disruption. Moreschi (talk) 18:07, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- This is not Zuggernaut's first attempt at canvassing and will not be his last (there are at least two ANIs where this has been discussed), he has consistently used provocative language and posts to canvass his positions on WT:INB. The only reason he canvassed me (per Athenean's statement above) this time is because I had a mild disagreement with Fowler on this particular issue. I'm not entirely convinced that a name change is in order at the present time, although I can appreciate the arguments in favor. It's not a page ban that's needed but a topic ban that's required here. See the history on Talk:India where his proposal was rejected in September, then he comes back a few months later adding the same POV stuff in claiming that there was consensus in September, then in the face of complete opposition starts an RFC and keeps arguing the same points again and again. —SpacemanSpiff 18:34, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- I haven't commented on the move discussion (and would oppose it actually), but this Zuggernaut Vs Fowler thing is getting a little bit out of hand. Though Fowler doesn't help things with his sharp remarks and pithy edit summaries, Zuggernaut's behaviour is getting tiresome - he has a pretty strong POV on this issue. He has even suggested that projects to distribute wikipedia articles offline in india, go through the contribution history of articles to check for "known editors who have a known POV issue". Read the whole thing - he is actually suggesting a "pre approved editor list" for india related wikipedia articles that are selected for distribution. It gives me the creeps. Apparently, if you are non-Indian and you dont agree with him, you dont count; and if you are an Indian and you dont agree with him you are a "Brown Sahib". --Sodabottle (talk) 18:53, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps it is time for a topic ban on zuggernaut. I have opposed the move proposal but it is impossible to have a reasonable discussion on the merits of a proposal or on alternative titles when persistent POV pushers with an agenda are around. The persistent resurrection of topics that don't get consensus (see the Talk:India history pointed out by SpacemanSpiff above), the references to brown sabibs noted by Sodabottle (not, I am sorry to say, for the first time[6]), the long list of acronyms in the complaint above, these are all examples of an editor with a single minded agenda to insert his own POV into wikipedia. I suggest a topic ban on all articles related to Indian history. --rgpk (comment) 23:09, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- let us not forget the English nationalist POV pushed by Fowler. His edits across wikipedia promoting British East India Company, attempts to forecefully define Indian history to have started from English intervention and his recent attempts to separate Indian history from South asian history thus resorting to history revisionism requires a topic ban for Fowler as well. his relentless English nationalistic POV brings out the worst among other contributing editors. --CarTick (talk) 23:15, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- I have not seen anything by Fowler&fowler during the move discussion that I recognized as pro-English POV pushing. Could you please provide relevant diffs if you argue for a topic ban? Huon (talk) 23:58, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- because he didnt do that. what he did in that move discussion was history revisionism. i am sure you didnt notice that! will provide evidences when topic ban is seriously considered. dont want to waste my time for nothing. --CarTick (talk) 00:05, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- Could you expand on your view that Fowler&fowler has an "English POV"? Because I don't know what this means in this context and I haven't seen any of it yet. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 23:05, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- because he didnt do that. what he did in that move discussion was history revisionism. i am sure you didnt notice that! will provide evidences when topic ban is seriously considered. dont want to waste my time for nothing. --CarTick (talk) 00:05, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- I have not seen anything by Fowler&fowler during the move discussion that I recognized as pro-English POV pushing. Could you please provide relevant diffs if you argue for a topic ban? Huon (talk) 23:58, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- let us not forget the English nationalist POV pushed by Fowler. His edits across wikipedia promoting British East India Company, attempts to forecefully define Indian history to have started from English intervention and his recent attempts to separate Indian history from South asian history thus resorting to history revisionism requires a topic ban for Fowler as well. his relentless English nationalistic POV brings out the worst among other contributing editors. --CarTick (talk) 23:15, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- Zuggernaut does have a very strong POV on issues regarding India and the British. If you look at Talk:British Empire, about two thirds of archive 12 and most of archive 13 are filled with threads started by him or exacerbated by him trying to add information about famines in India and how they were completely the fault of the British. Back then he was also canvassing and forum shopping to try and get his way (at one point contacting the Ireland noticeboards to try and get them to comment on whether information about famines should be in the article). His POV is very clear when he makes comments such as "I'm sure, free and democratic nations such as India would have industrialized or even surpassed Europe in the industrialization" as a reason for including economic information about India in the British Empire article (seen in this thread). Notably when discussing this article he had another editor pegged as a British POV warrior, similar to fowler now. Zuggernaut has twice before used AN/I to try and censure other editors (search for "Zuggernaut" here and here, both of which were remarkable flops. The current disruption has been caused because he found this inventions article and objected to the move to South Asia, which is fair enough. However, he provided no solutions to the issue at hand, and it trying to maintain that the article List of Indian inventions and discoveries should include inventions from all over the Indian subcontinent/South Asia/India before 1947, and for all inventions from the Republic of India as well, going as far as to ask for sources calling ancient inventions Pakistani. I dislike the idea of a topic ban, as the user does make good contributions to some India articles; however there does seem to be some sort of need for it as the same behavioural patterns have continued until now. Perhaps just one relating to Indian/British history, under the discretion of an administrator or something similar. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 04:03, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- This remarkable bit of logic just appeared, "reliable sources consider IVC a part of India and per WP:Commonname, India equates to the Republic of India." I leave it up to others to make sense of this. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 04:09, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- If others want to take the time to discuss this, I support a topic ban of Zuggernaut as there is plenty of reason to believe the nationalistic POV pushing will never end voluntarily. One clear example was a suggestion here (permalink) that text be added to Famine in India to say that due to his racist views, Winston Churchill had deliberately ignored pleas for emergency food aid and had left the population to starve. Despite the fact that the "refusal" was in 1943 at the height of World War II, Zuggernaut did not want to consider the possibility that the failure to ship food might have been influenced by the war—further than that, Z did not even want the war mentioned, saying "World War II is more or less European history and I think its a distraction in this discussion" (diff). Johnuniq (talk) 05:04, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- That might sound displeasing to Churchill's supporters. but he seems within bounds to suggest that sentnence as i hope he had reliable references to back up his claim. however, the decision to include or exclude the sentence should depend on several other factors, WP:Due being one important. it is a content dispute and he clearly has a pro-Indian POV. what about other editors with pro-English and anti-Indian POVs? --CarTick (talk) 05:12, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- So, is a topic ban being planned for Zuggernaut (talk · contribs) and, if so, how will it proceed? Will RegentsPark and Morsechi (and SpacemanSpiff?), being admins, take the initiative, or will they invite some other admin? Please let us participants here know what is being planned. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:35, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Proposed restrictions
Zuggernaut (talk · contribs) is indefinitely:
- 1. topic banned from Indian history, broadly construed. He is not permitted to edit or discuss these topics anywhere on Wikipedia.
- 2. banned from interacting with or commenting about Fowler&fowler (talk · contribs), directly or indirectly, anywhere on Wikipedia. This means Zuggernaut is not to discuss, either explicitly nor by allusion, the actions, behaviours, editing, or existence of this user.
- 3. subject to an editing restriction (probation). Should he make any edits, comments, or actions which are judged by an uninvolved administrator to be disruptive, he may be banned from any affected pages or set of pages. The ban will take effect after it has been logged here and the administrator has posted a notice on his user talk page. If he is specifically not banned from using affected talk pages, this must be specified in the notice and log.
- 4. banned from List of Indian inventions and discoveries and List of South Asian inventions and discoveries due to inappropriate canvassing in relation to these 4 pages. Note to closing admin: this last measure is to be logged as an enforcement action of the probation listed at 3.
- Proposed. Interaction ban warranted after [7] & [8]. Enforcement of probation warranted after canvassing (note the wording for the lack of neutrality). The repeated POV-pushing warrants the topic ban and need for supervised editing - see other diffs in the above discussion. Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:54, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Support I suspect we may need more evidence presented in order to gain a consensus on this broad proposal, but my observations over the last few months have convinced me that some form of topic ban would be the only way to provide a stable editing environment. My above comment with timestamp "05:04, 30 March 2011" has one example of unhelpful POV pushing. Johnuniq (talk) 10:12, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose that he has pro-Indian POV (which i dont deny) can not be a reason for such broader bans. everyone comes with a bias. that he has no blocks logged indicates he has worked within the boundaries of wikipedia policies and guidelines. looks like an effort to get rid of a serious opposition to pro-English and anti-Indian POV pushers. --CarTick (talk) 12:23, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Are you suggesting that Ncmvocalist is not acting in good faith? Syrthiss (talk) 12:31, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- nope, i am not. please dont put words in my mouth. i just disagree with him. most of the ban proposers had fought with Zuggernaut in pro-English and anti-Indian camps in various talk pages and i dont expect them to be objective.
so, i would say Ncmvocalist is one of the uninvolved here.we should consider where the opposition comes from. i dont want to accuse everyone of holding a grudge against Z. some are sincerely worried about the way Fowler vs Zuggernaut rivalry is playing out in various talk pages. i have my own reservations about Z but i dont think we have sufficient background for topic ban yet. --CarTick (talk) 12:51, 31 March 2011 (UTC)- i have such a bad memory. Wikipedia:Requests for comment/YellowMonkey, Ncmvocalist and many others including myself were defending YellowMonkey. ncmvocalist was quite vocal in his defense. the RFC was filed by User:Yogesh Khandke over a block. Zuggernaut was there opposing YellowMonkey. therefore it is wrong to say Zuggernaut and Ncmvocalist have never interacted. just clarifying. --CarTick (talk) 23:50, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- It appears that you have no idea what the meaning of uninvolved is. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:50, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- My preference was to avoid losing the user's contributions from all areas of the project when the problems seem to be when he is editing in relation to these topics. But to take an example; arbitration examines the conduct of all involved parties, and as you are one of them in this case, your own conduct could be the subject of a finding of fact. Is it necessary to get to that point before the problem can be addressed through a binding voluntary agreement? If we want to think about blocks, to take you as an example again, your edit-warring in the mainspace ([9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14]) was worthy of a block...but do you really want blocks to be used? These two ways of dealing with the issues are a last resort, and the restrictions I've proposed are to avoid the need for that in the future, particularly if in the case of the Zuggernaut, he can conduct himself more appropriately and provide useful contributions in other topics. Incidentally, having a POV is not the problem; what is a problem is when it is pushed in a way which is disruptive and inappropriate; the canvassing, the comments I linked to above which were directed to Fowler, and what Johnuniq has shared earlier, are just a few examples of that. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:17, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- i have such a bad memory. Wikipedia:Requests for comment/YellowMonkey, Ncmvocalist and many others including myself were defending YellowMonkey. ncmvocalist was quite vocal in his defense. the RFC was filed by User:Yogesh Khandke over a block. Zuggernaut was there opposing YellowMonkey. therefore it is wrong to say Zuggernaut and Ncmvocalist have never interacted. just clarifying. --CarTick (talk) 23:50, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- nope, i am not. please dont put words in my mouth. i just disagree with him. most of the ban proposers had fought with Zuggernaut in pro-English and anti-Indian camps in various talk pages and i dont expect them to be objective.
- Are you suggesting that Ncmvocalist is not acting in good faith? Syrthiss (talk) 12:31, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Neutral: This seems too harsh. The civility restriction I can agree with, and while we're at it we might consider a WP:1RR restriction to head off edit warring. However, I've seen his most recent interaction with me (on a naming proposal to end the debate that seemingly started all this) to be civil and in compliance with relevant policy. Obviously the consensus hasn't been judged yet, and I'd be curious to see what his attitude will be when/if the consensus is judged to be against his point of view on the matter. N419BH 14:40, 31 March 2011 (UTC)- I did consider 1RR, but I think it simply slows the edit-warring down to a point of exhausting everyone involved rather than resolving the underlying concern. That (to me anyway) seems pointless and will just exhaust precious time unnecessarily when it could be spent addressing the content issues. I'm not going to waste time trying to prevent the inevitable (I've been here far too long to try to meddle with what is destined to happen, be it an arbitration case, or more frequent usage of the blocking tool to prevent the problems). But at least after reading this discussion, nobody in the future can complain that there was a shortage of practical good faith proposals at the time (which is now). Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:17, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Move to Support in light of Zuggernaut's response, which clearly indicates a total lack of understanding of the issues at hand and is full of wikilawyering. Enough. N419BH 03:48, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
LimitedSupport: As I said above, Zuggernaut has done good work (a few GA's etc.) in some areas, and I don't wish to see him shut out of areas of editing unnecessarily. The topic ban range under 1 sounds feasible, although perhaps could be trimmed down to just British history, unless similar problems exist for other time scales. As for 2, I'm not sure if this will help. Fowler's not the only editor Zug's had these issues with, and frankly I don't think Fowler gives a damn (he can correct me if I'm wrong). In addition, Fowler works on many Indian related articles, so this may push Zuggernaut out of non-history areas as well. I'm not sure what 3 will work, although if it's creating a place where administrators can look over complaints that sounds good. As for 4, that seems to depend on 3. In the end, what I really wish for Zuggernaut to understand is that just because information he wants to place about how India's economy was destroyed, or how Churchill was racist, or how famines were caused by the British, was not added to the article due to other editors does not mean that the article is controlled by a British cabal, or that the editors involved are pro-English and anti-Indian. He should make sure he's not out on a mission to right great wrongs and fix the systematic bias of the wiki, and needs to understand that opposition to his pro-India edits does not mean a systematic bias is being enforced. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:54, 31 March 2011 (UTC)- Changed to support. As seen in his response below, Zuggernaut just doesn't understand what it wrong, and refuses to acknowledge he's violated guidelines on editing. His claim he doesn't know if he has violated canvass is (per his want to call things a spade) complete bullshit. A previous time he was accused of canvassing, he asked about it here, and was told that it was indeed canvassing. After that he made a request (section below that) to change the guideline to allow people to ask others to vote with them. He has even edited the actual guideline. Another user additionally noted in the discussion that he was forum shopping, which he has also done at the systematic bias page, and arguably has done with this and previous AN/I's. In summary, he has broken editing guidelines, and he knows it. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 09:29, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- From my brief time spent looking at this problem and being involved at the list page, I'll support 2 (very strongly, as he's openly admitted wikistalking), 3 (clearly necessary), and 4. 1 is probably a little OTT for now, and can easily be implemented under 3 later if necessary. Best, Moreschi (talk) 15:26, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Support 1, 3 and 4 per my reasons above. --rgpk (comment) 16:20, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Support 2, 3, and 4, particularly 2 due to odious wikistalking. Athenean (talk) 22:56, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Support 1 and 3 without reservations. At this point this is a necessary measure, given the past behavior on various topics (Famine in India, India, British Empire etc etc). 4 is just a subset of 1, so I'm not sure it needs to be called out, but it has my support nevertheless. As far as 2 goes, I think it's necessary in principle, but the behavior is not restricted to F&f, so something broader would be preferred in terms of addressing the issue of wikistalking and not just interaction with one editor. That said, there's also the problem of one-way interaction bans (although there's no reason to make this a two-way ban currently) being that there's always the possibility of the perception of the banned party not being able to respond etc. —SpacemanSpiff 02:30, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Support 1 2 and 3. (4 comes under 1) We all come here with our biases, but most of us learn to suppress the worst of them and work within the limitations wikipedia imposes on us. In the past, i had hoped Zuggernaut would change his ways and use his obvious talent to do some good work; But his disruptive behaviour far outweighs the article work he has done. I dont believe any editor who advocates censorship based on nationality, wikistalks, throws out insults like "brown sahib", "acting white" would be a net positive to India related articles.--Sodabottle (talk) 04:36, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Comment Since I am mentioned by name in the proposal, I won't express an opinion on Zuggernaut. I will say that Zuggernaut was not the only one accusing people of anti-India and pro-British bias; CarTick, too, on the Talk:India page was accusing me, and Chipmunkdavis as well, of such bias, repeatedly accusing me of having "sneaked in" the reference to the British East India Company in the lead, and making me out to be a 21st century lobbyist for the East India Company on Wikipedia. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:06, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Support: For an amazing disregard for the dignity of other editors. For a shameless modus operandi of canvassing, race- and nationality-baiting, and bulldozing through painstakingly built consensus. For a lack of demonstrated self-improvement and compromise, revealing an incorrigible POV crusader attitude. Quigley (talk) 20:49, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Support; Nationalist pov-pushing is incredibly destructive (it either wears down the productive editors, or it consumes all their time). bobrayner (talk) 23:27, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose The editor in question has not a single block, so their editing has been well within the confines of existing policies and guidelines. A case of canvassing (perhaps it was, perhaps it wasn't) is not reason enough for what is essentially an "India" topic ban -- EVERYTHING relating to India is part of its history!!! Mentoring may be a better option, instead of drastic measures such as being proposed here. What is it with a community which would rather ban editors - because that is the easy way out! --Russavia I'm chanting as we speak 15:15, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Responses
Three policy violations have been cited for the ban. I will address each of them below.
1. POV pushing - As a part of my editing philosophy, I follow the essay on POV pushing, which says:
- The term POV-pushing is primarily used in regard to the presentation of a particular POV in an article and generally does not apply to talk page discussions. Editing a POV in an article that corresponds with one's own personal beliefs is not necessarily POV-pushing.
Since I have never knowingly violated 3RR and since I've now been sticking to 1RR as an editing philosophy, it is, by definition, impossible for me to push my POV in to articles. I would like to point out that all of the diffs and references made to my violation of this policy by those who want me banned are from talk pages.
2. Wikistalking - I had been thinking of setting up a new project about special India issues for several months. A diff from February shows this. Since I spend only a limited amount of time on Wikipedia per day, I never got around to doing this until March 4. In preparation of the creation of such a project proposal, I was searching Wikipedia for India-related articles that would come under this project. One such article amongst several others that I was able to locate was the List of Indian inventions and discoveries.
3. Canvassing - Per my colloquial usage of English, I am pretty sure that my notification on the India noticeboard is not "non-neutral" but I now see how other speakers of English variants might see it as non-neutral. I'm sorry about that.
Here's my general editing philosophy on Wikipedia:
- No edit warring, stick to 1RR
- Stick to WP:BRD
- Stick to all known Wikipedia policies and guidelines closely (no particular diffs to provide, just look at my entire edit history)
- If there is a policy or guideline that I have hitherto not been aware of and have violated, I apologize for doing so and I ensure that I abide by it in the future
- Calling a spade
- Be civil and polite as seen in GA success for Upanishads, GA success for Deshastha Brahmin, GA success for the Third Anglo-Maratha War
A friendly note to closing admin - here's what the banning policy says:
- If an editor has proven to be repeatedly disruptive in one or more areas of Wikipedia, the community may engage in a discussion to site ban, topic ban, or place an interaction ban or editing restriction via a consensus of editors who are not involved in the underlying dispute.
Pretty much everyone here who has participated in the ban discussion has been involved with the underlying dispute. Exceptions are Moreschi and N419BH. Zuggernaut (talk) 03:56, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Frankly Zuggernaut, I'm not sure you understand the meaning of uninvolved anymore than you understand the meaning of tendentious POV pushing (the page you're looking at is an essay and what you've cherry picked out of that part of the essay is not widely held by the community). Good intentions don't justify disruption, and similarly, the worst kind of disruption occurs on talk pages. These proposals are giving you an opportunity to demonstrate that you can contribute usefully in other areas without engaging in problematic conduct; perhaps this issue won't exist in areas you don't feel so strongly about, and perhaps in the future you can resist your temptation to push POV so strongly to the point of testing and exhausting the patience of so many of your peers. In any event, whether you voluntarily accept the restrictions as binding, or whether they need to be imposed on you involuntarily, is another question altogether. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:03, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- How about a response to the actual issue, such as the Churchill dispute that I mentioned above? Do you believe that it would be reasonable to state that a significant cause of a famine was Churchill's racism which led to him to deliberately ignore pleas for emergency food aid, without any mention of the fact that Churchill was fully occupied as one of the "big three" leaders fighting World War II, and might have had a number of issues competing for his attention? Johnuniq (talk) 03:23, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- In the editor's defence, people should read things such as this, for example. There are clearly reliable sources out there which put forward the view that Churchill was racist in regards to Indians. Or this which states: "Few statesmen of the 20th century have reputations as outsize as Winston Churchill's. And yet his assiduously self-promoted image as what the author Harold Evans called "the British Lionheart on the ramparts of civilization" rests primarily on his World War II rhetoric, rather than his actions as the head of a government that ruled the biggest empire the world has ever known. Madhusree Mukerjee's new book, Churchill's Secret War, reveals a side of Churchill largely ignored in the West and considerably tarnishes his heroic sheen." If the points raised in this and other reliable sources are accurate, then yes, this is a POV that is valid for inclusion in articles relating to the famine and Churchill himself. For the POV that you are asking about, you would of course need reliable sources to back up your assertions as to the reason for famine, etc. This clearly looks to me to be a case of an editor presenting information into articles that others don't want to see, and this as an attempt to censure said editor for wanting to do so. --Russavia I'm chanting as we speak 15:11, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Wuhwuzdat
I am a member of Wikipedia Farsi and English, a few days ago I became target of known vandal in wikipedia farsi after reverting his bad edits and reporting his sockpuppeting accounts. This user attempted to speedy delete topics which I was heavily involved with in Wikipedia Farsi, and then here. which led to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Iran Software & Hardware Co. (NOSA) usually this should have been defaulted to speedy keep as the user along with his suckpuppets were banned immediately after the AFD. however User:Wuhwuzdat voted delete in what I can only assume was in good faith.
Wuhwuzdat was the only editor with delete comment on the article, following this I wanted to know how i can improve it up to his standards so I left him the following comment in his talk page,
- "Hi, Thanks for your vote in the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Iran Software & Hardware Co. (NOSA), I appreciate your honest comment and will attempt to make it a less of a "steaming, stinking, pile of self referential spam" in near future. I would like to argue that while you may have 0 interest in such topic, Wikipedia is a place for information which might prove useful to public, and sharing a search able network of million of records is in the interest of scholars interested in Persian heritage. so is sharing information regarding free open source software and accounting software being used by a thousands of companies. In the article there has been an attempt to be as specific as possible and stick to the facts and the technical side as much as possible. either way I appreciate your honest opinion and will try to improve it.
- Please also remember that while you may not care about who put up the article or why, according to Wikipedia, it is wrong to recognize vandalism, the user in question is a very well known abuser of the system in wikipedia Persian with more than 30 closed accounts and ips. Thanks 2:40 pm, Yesterday (UTC−4)"
His response was to flush my edit, and say "you are correct, i have little interest in this subject". So i reflected this in the article for deletion as it seemed like he didn't care and the article was a good candidate for a snowball clause. at which time he decided to make things personal by breaking WP:OUTING rules and linking the article to removed edits by the banned user, also by proposing AFD for other topics edited by me such as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pardis Technology Park, editing my user page, and finally by reporting me to intervention against vandalism falsely, which was removed by administrator.
I did notice that he was very good editor when I approached his talk page with good intentions originally but he has so far harassed me and made it very personal, breaking Wikipedia:HARASS and WP:OUTING rules and abusing the intervention against vandalism system. Could you please intervene as you see fit, and also remove the links and history of the personal outing as put forward by banned user and mentioned in Wuhwuzdat's post? also I would highly argue speedy keep at least for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pardis Technology Park based on WP:DENY as it is clearly an important technology park as referenced by United Nations document, and it is clearly a case of personal harassment. Thank you very much Rmzadeh ► 20:24, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- People are allowed to remove messages from their Talk page if they wish, and you should not use that fact to turn the AfD personal - the AfD will be decided by consensus, without any need to personalise things -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:35, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, and I don't see any evidence of outing - could you please provide a diff? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:37, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- I agree that there is no indication that Wuhwuzdat has done anything even remotely close to a breach of WP:OUTING. (The same may not be able to be said for the original nominator of the AfD or a sockpuppet thereof, but that's not the user under discussion here.) —C.Fred (talk) 20:43, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- Of course anyone has the right to do with talk page as they please, that is not why I'm reporting this here, I am reporting him for harassment as outlined by him tagging other articles which clearly do not qualify as afd, and as him outing, and reporting me falsely for vandalism. this is clearly harassment
- Isn't sharing a link to outing link the same as outing?!! so if a user wants to share personal information without getting cought all he has to is to make a user and share personal info, get banned and then link to that outing with his main account?! that does not make sense! he has clearly shared personal information by sharing a link to someones else's edit which shared personal information.
- he has provided a link to a deleted history of outing in the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Iran Software & Hardware Co. (NOSA) in an edit today starting with "In light of a deleted contribution by a sockpuppet, alleging COI" Rmzadeh ► 20:49, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- That's not outing - there is no personal information disclosed about you. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:51, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- (ec) It's borderline, Boing, but I would say there was one tidbit that falls within the spectrum of possible outing. This would be less messy if Rmzadeh had put it a timely request for oversight rather than airing it here. I have revision deleted the edits in question (including one of my own, which came in between the posting of the information in question and its reversion off of the page and am putting in a request for oversight of the material. I will not comment further via talk page about the material in question (though if Wuhwuzdat or a user who feels (s)he was potentially outed by the edit would like to email me about it, I will respond). —C.Fred (talk) 21:03, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- Suppressed now. User:Fred Bauder Talk 21:39, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- Hmm, OK. it looked to me more like an unconfirmed question to me -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:10, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, and where did he report you for vandalism? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:55, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- here [15], I had a rollback shortcut in my user page as I was under the impression I could rollback! his edited my user page, and following that reported me to be inspected for vandalism. the edit was removed by admin as it was clearly not a case.
- honestly you can't see any harassment in what he is doing? am I to believe him nominating a 2nd article edited by me for afd when it clearly does not fit the category and him reporting me as a vandal and "not" quite outing me by sharing a link with intention to put up personal information is not wrong at all?
- Thank you C.Fred for removing the outing history, I was not sure which board to use, I found here to be a good tool. I will use the other board next time. Rmzadeh ► 21:10, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- OK, yes, that was kinda pointy - but it was quickly resolved and I see no need for further action about it here. What I'm seeing here is two people getting a bit too heated with each other - and I have to say it looks like it was you who first turned it personal by taking the spat from his Talk page over to the AfD. You should have just ignored that (because he is entitled to remove your messages from his Talk page if he wishes) and not inflamed it further on the AfD. All I think that is needed now is for you to stick to discussing the actual article on the AfD page, and drop the personal arguments. And the second AfD? I'd suggest just letting it run - if the subject is considered notable, it won't be deleted. Both just cool down a bit, because nothing very bad has happened here - and I don't see any need for any admin action at this point -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:17, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- Sure, I will drop it here, it is however a little unusual that you are letting the 2nd afd run its course and not closing it due to its personal nature. Thank you both for your assistance in this matter, I will update you if the user makes any more personal attacks and will refrain from any attacks of such nature, as I have so far. Rmzadeh ► 21:27, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- For the record, I've undone [16] Wuhwuzdat's {{spa}} tagging of Rmzadeh's comments at AfD. Wuhwuzdat's edit summary was "spa tag an editor who has made this article a major part of his wikipedia editing over the last 4 years" [17] which was followed by a comment with the edit summary "is there a COI?" [18]
This type of tagging is highly inappropriate and is tantamount to using tags and templates as weapons. Such COI claims are also not appropriate and appear to be nothing more than an attempt by Wuhwuzdat to discredit Rmzadeh. From Rmzadeh's contribution history it is readily apparent he has worked on other articles and has been around awhile. While Rmzadeh might have a vested interest in an article he spent a great deal of time editing, that does not necessarily mean that there is a conflict of interest.
Given Wuhwuzdat's editing patterns and interactions with others, this AfD nomination and other edits such as [19] and this failure to assume good faith [20] this seems to go far beyond simple incivility and begins to appear as though Wuhwuzdat is persecuting Rmzadeh. At the very least, Wuhwuzdat's contribution history seems to indicate a systemic pattern of bullying others. --Tothwolf (talk) 22:09, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'd agree with the above assertion. Earlier today when I was patrolling new pages I noticed there was several pages where Wuhwuzdat was placing both a CSD and a BLPPROD tag on at least two articles less than 10 minutes after they'd been created, and then tagging them for cleanup. (I can't link to any particular articles since they've all been deleted.) After attempting to explain to him that it's likely best practice to only tag for the most pressing issues (i.e., only the CSD) and leave the less pressing ones for later if they're necessary, he simply deleted my comment on his talk page with a somewhat noncommittal edit summary. Perhaps it's not entirely relevant to the discussion at hand but it speaks to his character. elektrikSHOOS 02:10, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, I also agree with the removal of the {{spa}} tag - there is no reason to suspect Rmzadeh's contributions as being anything other than good faith. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:06, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Wider Implications
- Please notice that with my outing history removed, and with both articles on afd in no clear danger of deletion, I consider the personal case between me and Wuhwuzdat resolved, as the user has been online, he has been informed of the proceedings, and there has been no further personal issues. The only reason I approached Wuhwuzdat talk page in the first place was due to the fact that after seeing his user page with the mass of self awards (which i did not know existed btw), I was under the impression that he was a very respectable editor of Wikipedia whose rather sharp and toned opinions must be valued and discussed, at the time which I approached his talk page there was no danger of removal of the topic in question either way.
- However also please note that in the past few days I have reviewed Wuhwuzdat's contributions in detail and in the spirit of keeping Wikipedia a great place for all parties interested in sharing knowledge, I would like to share my findings and plead for appropriate assistance to new users and articles plagued by his general overzealous behaviour, filtering, and arguably rude tone.
- Wuhwuzdat 's long editing history is almost entirely made up of patrolling and tagging pages for deletion, while I admire him for his countless hours spent patrolling Wikipedia, an act which is both encouraged, and appreciated, I find his actions to be of bullying nature and against the spirit of creating a growing community interested in sharing useful information. His behaviour as previously discussed in the following archived AN/I cases Amy Fisher reported by Wuhwuzdat (Result: 12h to reporter), User:NE2 reported by User:Wuhwuzdat (Result: Both parties warned), Wuhwuzdat on a CSD spree, User: Wuhwuzdat, and User:Wuhwuzdat could be seen in many of recent edits, not using myself as an example, i invite you to look at an example of his uncalled aggressive approach in dealing with articles such as [21] in which he tags csd, and BLPPROD for an arguably notable article within the same moment of its creation, or the following case in which he has requested csd for user sandbox draft of the article before its formal creation[22]. Imagine the shock of the victims of such action, the dissatisfying feeling that it creates for the new user whose article which they just spent hours writing will have no chance of standing against the force of a seemingly qualified agent of Wikipedia who has in practice told them in different and repeating formats that they have no chance of being useful in here, that we are not going to look at the article in detail, we are not going to help them make it viable, we are not going to give them the chance to do so either, we are just going to delete it because they are a new user creating a page.
- Is this really the attitude that Wikipedia likes to approach new users with? Do you think they stand a chance against this type of bullish response while not familiar with Wikipedia? Is it unreasonable to think that this will result in either user leaving Wikipedia or trying to get in touch with the editor, at which case as examples in his talk page and records [23] show, often such users get frustrated from his lack of appropriate response, end up using inflammatory language in response to him or even consider creation of more accounts to voice their opinions, at which time he reports them to be banned. While I Conquer that such behaviour is never acceptable, I would argue that new users are really being put in a corner by such aggressive contributions. I have been around long enough that I know the right venues for voicing my opinions against what I consider bad behaviours by editors such as Wuhwuzdat, you have to consider the fact that Wikipedia is a hard place to become familiar with and many will not know of such venues when they are just starting in here. I beg of you to ask this user to relax his treatment of new articles and users so they too may have a chance of creating useful information in their topics of interest within the confines of this great encyclopaedia.
- I have also found out that Wuhwuzdat's area of interest lies in articles related to railroad transportation, I read these articles and I greatly appreciate his contributions to these articles however I must voice my concern that being an editor who knows the rules very well and deletes topics frequently based of lack of sources and similar issues, much of his own contributions lacks both notability and credible sources as seen in GMD GF6C,Railpower RP14BD, Railpower RP20BD, articles with no references, and his other contributions with geocities as primary source on reference. Even more harmful is the issue with his uploaded images [24] such as this image [25], which in my honest opinion, suffer major copyright issue as they have been taken from Western History Department of the Denver Public Library and published with fair use tag and the claim that the "The department actively encourages fair use of its images for educational purposes" the link provided to the copyright information does not work however upon researching the centres website I found out that based on their updated copyright page here [26], they have clearly stated that "All images from the Denver Public Library collection are copyright © protected and may not be reproduced in any way without permission from the Denver Public Library. Commercial use of images is subject to service fees." not only there is not a clause allowing educational use, there is also a clause specifically prohibiting these purchasable images from being reproduced for any reason without specific consent. I have not tagged or acted on any of these pages as I am not experienced enough to want to edit his pages and I do not wish to flair the fire any more then absolutely necessary, but I do expect an editor to hold himself to at least the same standards and he does a new user with no knowledge of the rules.
- In closing, let me make this clear that I still believe Wuhwuzdat to be a very accomplished editor and I do not wish to belittle his value in anyway for he has done much for this community, the purpose of this article is not to go after personal vengeance or punitive measures, infect I am very well aware that being a newer editor with fewer friends, I am risking my own standing in this community by going after such veteran editor, and probably should expect some throw backs very soon, but it is just this editors honest opinion that attention of the powers that be must be brought, to what in his mind, equates to an example of an editor with unjust attitude towards new users. I shiver of the day that Wuhwuzdat becomes an administrator before changing his attitude and tone of comments. I'm afraid to do so again, so I ask you, please talk to him and take appropriate action to save new articles and users. Respectfully yours Rmzadeh ► 21:55, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- If you want to seek community opinion on an editor's long-term editing patterns, the best place is probably WP:RFC/U - this ANI forum is for requesting specific admin action in response to specific incidents, and I don't think any admin action is needed at this time. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:18, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- A Requests for comment/Wuhwuzdat was launched last year and it led to no result, with the user User:Amanda.nelson12 leaving due to harsh treatment and inability to get any remedies and Wuhwuzdat taking a break and becoming "semi-retired". Quoting from the RFC/U, it "was summarily and impolitely dismissed by Wuhwuzdat,[27] since he believes that only administrators should be able to question his actions.[28]". A previous Wikiquette Alert was also filled and closed as stuck: [29], concluding that "attempts to resolve this dispute have halted. Seems to be outside the scope of WQA to do any more than it has".
- I really think the only people capable of talking to this user are Wikipedia Administrators, there are a dozen cases everywhere regarding him and non have so far led to any change in his behaviour. Hence I think this requires an administrator intervention, be it an admin seriously discussing his behaviour, warning him of such behaviour, or applying stopping measures. If history has anything to teach us, is that users trying to talk to him have not been able accomplish anything. Rmzadeh ► 00:21, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- I still don't think ANI is the forum for it, as by its nature ANI is for dealing with individual incidents. Admins don't have any more say than the rest of the community, they just have access to tools with which to enforce the community's policies and decisions, so I think this would really need to go via the various steps in the dispute resolution process if you wish to pursue it. (I'll leave my thoughts at that - others may disagree with me) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:43, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- I really think the only people capable of talking to this user are Wikipedia Administrators, there are a dozen cases everywhere regarding him and non have so far led to any change in his behaviour. Hence I think this requires an administrator intervention, be it an admin seriously discussing his behaviour, warning him of such behaviour, or applying stopping measures. If history has anything to teach us, is that users trying to talk to him have not been able accomplish anything. Rmzadeh ► 00:21, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- I've noticed that User:Wuhwuzdat often makes poor nominations at AFD. For example, on observing this thread, I checked his contributions and his most recent nomination was Linda Lusardi. She was quite a famous pin-up and so I instantly recognised her name. There are lots of sources out there which confirm this and so it seems clear that no due diligence has been done. In other words, when the nomination asserts that this topic is "not notable", this is a blatant falsehood. This pattern of negligent editing is disruptive and so action here seems appropriate. Colonel Warden (talk) 19:18, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Looks like he's been on a spree of nominating lots of articles about models for deletion today, with a cursory "non notable former model" reason - despite a number of them still currently being models, and some having made TV appearances, and there being GNews hits. No apparent WP:BEFORE done on any of these. I agree there's a problem here - just not sure this is the best venue. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:36, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- From my experience in dealing with similar issues with this individual (indef blocked after years of problems), and these two individuals [30] [31] (both accounts abandoned after they were sanctioned) I became painfully aware that we do not have a system in place here on Wikipedia to deal with such individuals. Bullying here on Wikipedia is an extremely widespread problem, but one which has been largely ignored and I'm not really sure how we can fix it.
I also noted "busy-body" tagging and disruption [32] as one of four types of tagging behaviour at WP:VPP in this discussion. It is extremely easy to make massive number of edits using automated or semi-automated tools, so a high edit count is never indicative of how productive an editor someone is. Take for example the User:Mhiji sockpuppet that racked up 28,077 edits in 4 months (October 16, 2010 - January, 16 2011) using automated scripts. --Tothwolf (talk) 07:48, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
User:Kwamikagami moving ship class articles from XXXX class format to XXX-class format reported by Toddy1 (Result:)
User being reported: Kwamikagami (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User:Kwamikagami has a plan to rename all the ship class articles from the format "XXXX class ship" to the format "XXXX-class ship". This contentious move is under discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ships#Bot_request.
At 22:10, 30 March 2011 User:Kwamikagami agreed to stop making these moves at User_talk:Kwamikagami#Stop_moving_ship_class_articles. Nevertheless he is making these moves on 31 March 2011 - showing bad faith.
I know that User:Kwamikagami is an admin. One user has told me that User:Kwamikagami using his admin tools to make these moves (see User_talk:Toddy1#User:Kwamikagami).
Please can User:Kwamikagami be halted in his endeavour until WikiProject_Ships has come to a conclusion on whether these moves should be made.
I do not know whether using his admin tools to make these moves - if he is misusing them, is it appropriate that he have these abilities?--Toddy1 (talk) 11:48, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- This is stupid. We have an eight-year-old consensus on this. I agreed to stop making wholesale changes just to bring articles into line with our naming conventions, and I have. However, when there is other reason to move an article, such as caps, plurals, or omission of the ship type, then I'll hyphenate as well. — kwami (talk) 11:58, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- We do not, as you claim, have an "eight-year-old consensus" on this subject. Indeed we don't have much of a consensus at all and there has been an inconclusive discussion ever since you made the original bot request. You are making a pretty blatant attempt to impose your own view, disregarding the views of others and ignoring repeated requests to wait. The Land (talk) 12:06, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- As a complete outsider to this issue, I'm a bit confused. What was the other reason to move VMV class patrol boat to VMV-class patrol boat? [33] There doesn't seem to be any change except the hyphen. :/ --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:09, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- To summarise; Kwami is strongly of the opinion that these articles ought to have hyphens in the titles and requested a bot to do so. Others, myself included, asked for a discussion about whether that was a good idea, which has happened largely here, which has yet to reach a conclusion. There was a previous discussion about this issue last November, which concluded that ship class names should generally have hyphens, but only about 5 editors participated in that conversation. There is only one person who seems to think there is an urgent need to change all of these names with no further debate, which is Kwami. Most ships editors (regardless of their views on hyphens) are happy to let the debate run its course and then, if necessary, have a bot update the titles. The Land (talk) 12:19, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- (ec)Kwami, I am now to this dispute, but I can't see how your statement here is valid when I see moves like VMV class patrol boat to VMV-class patrol boat or TID class tug to TID-class tug: they don't match "when there is other reason to move an article, such as caps, plurals, or omission of the ship type, then I'll hyphenate as well.", but only add the hyphenation. Can you explain how these (which are just the most recent examples) are examples of your agreement above? Fram (talk) 12:10, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- No, Kwami, this is not stupid. That kind of behavior (specifically, trying to shoehorn your change in with other edits) would get you blocked for edit-warring if this was a content dispute. You've been around for far too long (not to mention the fact that you're an admin) to play dumb about this. Let the discussion run its course, then we can move pages if we decide to. This is not time-critical, nor is a fait accompli an acceptable tactic. Parsecboy (talk) 12:16, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, those last couple (Moonriddengirl) were among the remaining few on a short list[34] along with some that needed other fixes. That's a valid complaint. But the hundreds of red links in the main lists[35][36][37][38][39][40] are articles I've left alone. If I'd wanted to shoehorn in my edits, I would have moved or a substantial fraction of them by now. — kwami (talk) 12:29, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- No, Kwami, this is not stupid. That kind of behavior (specifically, trying to shoehorn your change in with other edits) would get you blocked for edit-warring if this was a content dispute. You've been around for far too long (not to mention the fact that you're an admin) to play dumb about this. Let the discussion run its course, then we can move pages if we decide to. This is not time-critical, nor is a fait accompli an acceptable tactic. Parsecboy (talk) 12:16, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- (ec)Kwami, I am now to this dispute, but I can't see how your statement here is valid when I see moves like VMV class patrol boat to VMV-class patrol boat or TID class tug to TID-class tug: they don't match "when there is other reason to move an article, such as caps, plurals, or omission of the ship type, then I'll hyphenate as well.", but only add the hyphenation. Can you explain how these (which are just the most recent examples) are examples of your agreement above? Fram (talk) 12:10, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Initially I was closely following this debate when it started a week ago. However arguments over using "hyphens" versus "en dashes" and "uses as a noun are not hyphenated" versus "uses as an adjective are hyphenated" quickly put me to sleep. — Kralizec! (talk) 12:44, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- What form is used by sources?
- I just had a quick look at two of the classes mentioned above; one was wholly unsourced (surely a more pressing problem) and the other had sources which preferred an unhyphenated name.
- It seems unlikely to me that all sources on hundreds of ship classes around the world (different countries, different ship types &c) all use hyphenation in exactly the same way; in which case such mass moves guarantee that some articles will be moved to a new name not used by sources. Just for the sake of consistent use of hyphens between articles even though lay readers would never want to compare a hundred article titles like that. Faithfulness to sources is much more important than lining up hundreds of articles neatly with the same particle of punctuation at the top; I fail to see any overriding benefit that justifies such mass moves. bobrayner (talk) 12:59, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Sources are for facts, not usage. You will find hyphens mis-used by hundreds of sources, and that doesn't make them right or wrong. Wikipedia has its own guidelines on hyphens, which Kwami is following. Personally I don't think Kwami is showing much good sense in antagonising the rest of WP:SHIPS, but what he's doing to the article names per se is not wrong - it is in fact in accordance with both WP:HYPHEN and WP:TITLE, so far as I can see. The original question was whether a bot should be used to mass-move the ship class articles to incorporate (what was at the time considered to be) the consensus. In the meantime we've had some editors questioning the original guidelines and the (apparent) consensus on their use in titles, and Kwami has been busy doing manual moves of these articles. Personally, I'd wait, get consensus and let the bot do the work, but I can't see that his moves are actually wrong as such. Shem (talk) 13:18, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Per WP:COMMONNAME I'd say sources are pretty important in choosing the name as well! 212.68.15.66 (talk) 13:30, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- This is a choice between "XXXX class ship" and "XXXX-class ship" for a range of thousands of articles, not a choice between "Bill Clinton" and "William Jefferson Clinton" (to choose just one example from WP:COMMONNAME). Furthermore, it's got nothing to do with the subject of this discussion, which is about moves conducted by one editor. So, I'd say WP:COMMONNAME is far from "pretty important". Shem (talk) 13:48, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Sources are for facts, not usage. You will find hyphens mis-used by hundreds of sources, and that doesn't make them right or wrong. Wikipedia has its own guidelines on hyphens, which Kwami is following. Personally I don't think Kwami is showing much good sense in antagonising the rest of WP:SHIPS, but what he's doing to the article names per se is not wrong - it is in fact in accordance with both WP:HYPHEN and WP:TITLE, so far as I can see. The original question was whether a bot should be used to mass-move the ship class articles to incorporate (what was at the time considered to be) the consensus. In the meantime we've had some editors questioning the original guidelines and the (apparent) consensus on their use in titles, and Kwami has been busy doing manual moves of these articles. Personally, I'd wait, get consensus and let the bot do the work, but I can't see that his moves are actually wrong as such. Shem (talk) 13:18, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Whether I agree in principle with hyphenation (incidentally, I do) is neither here nor there. We are talking about multiple page moves in the absence of a clear consensus. To start moving pages in huge batches today based on an "8-year consensus" is clearly as poor a show as doing it without consensus at all (WP:CCC). IPs and new users who go around moving pages on a whim get indeffed; and Kwami is an admin who, dare I say, has a less-than-exemplary record of edit warring and abuse of WP:ADMIN (just one example here). Need to start thinking about locking him up and throwing away the key. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 14:26, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with the hyphenation: it is easier for our readers, especially non-experts, who don't see these compound constructions every day and are assisted by the joining of the double adjective. The sources out there are no doubt mixed (= in a mess, as is typical), and the MoS is quite clear about the need for a hyphen. If Kwami is using admin tools to do it, he should at least have posted his intention at WT:MOS and the appropriate WikiProject. There has been at least one recent case in which he used his tools while WP:INVOLVED, at the locked page WP:MOS. He did revert after several warnings, and I am willing to take on trust his explanation that he did not realise the page was still locked. But do be careful, Kwami ... Tony (talk) 16:01, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- I've no opinion about hyphens or ship classes, but: Making mass changes, such as by bot, to many articles without prior explicit consensus, is disruptive. But apparently Kwamikagami is now only making these changes manually in conjunction with other useful edits. This does not strike me as disruptive, as long as the change follows WP:MOS, which it is claimed to do. Sandstein 16:51, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Way too much energy is expended on wikipedia arguing over the names of things. I'd like to hear an explanation as to how the presence or absence of hyphens benefits the readers. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:41, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- No one seems to have answered your comment: "I'd like to hear an explanation as to how the presence or absence of hyphens benefits the readers". Not commenting myself on the merits of hyphenation, but Tony1 seems to clearly explain just above how the hyphen is useful to non-expert readers. Jenks24 (talk) 03:55, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- The argument, then, would be that the "benefit" to the readers is to see it worded "correctly" (or at least "correctly" as far as wikipedia's manual of style is concerned)? There's certainly no benefit when searching, as the search window ignores punctuation anyway. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:41, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- No one seems to have answered your comment: "I'd like to hear an explanation as to how the presence or absence of hyphens benefits the readers". Not commenting myself on the merits of hyphenation, but Tony1 seems to clearly explain just above how the hyphen is useful to non-expert readers. Jenks24 (talk) 03:55, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Is there another option to using or not using the hyphen?? :) - BilCat (talk) 19:36, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, did I forget to mention the n-dash, or whatever it is? The option that was forgotten here is to leave the bloody thing alone. With or without punctuation, an item can be found in the search box. I'd like to see the hyphen-obsessed editor explain how all his busy-work helps the viewing public. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:39, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- That's utterly besides the point of the thread. If I were you I wouldn't draw too much attention to the subject of editors doing things which aren't useful to the encyclopedia while dropping in yet again to add chatter to a random ANI thread, Bugs. FWIW I strongly support a censure here, based on Kwami continuing to move pages after agreeing not to yesterday on the rather flimsy subtext that nobody would presumably mind if the moves in question could be described as copyedits. As others have said, a non-admin who acted like this would have a less than spotless block log by now. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 19:59, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- I understand that the primary complaint is about moves without discussion, and it's certainly a legitimate complaint, but it's only a symptom of the real problem. Editors wasting countless hours on the names of things, which is the real problem, is a direct quote from a trusted admin. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:59, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- If you want to fix the real problem, lobby for removal of move rights from regular editors like moi, and leave that up to the admins. That would require discussion before moves occur. It would also take away the ability of characters like Grawp to rename articles to something stupid, thus saving even more wasted time. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:03, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- That's utterly besides the point of the thread. If I were you I wouldn't draw too much attention to the subject of editors doing things which aren't useful to the encyclopedia while dropping in yet again to add chatter to a random ANI thread, Bugs. FWIW I strongly support a censure here, based on Kwami continuing to move pages after agreeing not to yesterday on the rather flimsy subtext that nobody would presumably mind if the moves in question could be described as copyedits. As others have said, a non-admin who acted like this would have a less than spotless block log by now. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 19:59, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, did I forget to mention the n-dash, or whatever it is? The option that was forgotten here is to leave the bloody thing alone. With or without punctuation, an item can be found in the search box. I'd like to see the hyphen-obsessed editor explain how all his busy-work helps the viewing public. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:39, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Is there another option to using or not using the hyphen?? :) - BilCat (talk) 19:36, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Large repetitive actions without prior consensus are disruptive and improper per WP:MEATBOT regardless of whether actual automation is involved. Kwami, please discuss operations like this on the relevant talkpages and wait for discussion to conclude BEFORE starting the operations. Also, the hyphen-vs-endash thing is complicated ad I urge the discussion participants to reach a firm consensus on it before going ahead with any renames, so as to avoid yet another mass-move operation sometime in the future if the first one wasn't decided carefully enough. 75.57.242.120 (talk) 21:27, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
All fools day/ April Fools day Notice
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Black_jokers.jpeg/100px-Black_jokers.jpeg)
Good Morning UTC Wiki-Administrators.
Please be aware that today is April Fools day. Please be on high alert for higher then normal levels of Vandalism, trolling and other nonsense. Also, please assert AFG on the more cleaner jokes that may occur today as well between users and wiki-groups on Wikipedia.
Thank you. Phearson (talk) 01:39, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Okay.... Reaper Eternal (talk | contribs | block) 02:10, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
We'll see what we can do...98.16.37.157 (talk) 02:14, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- It's still only the 31st where you are. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:16, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Hey, it's 5 o'clock somewhere in the world! –MuZemike 02:42, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- It's still only the 31st where you are. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:16, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
I can't think of any truly funny pranks to pull today. In fact, I sorta forgot all about April Fool's Day until now. Anyone mind if I sit this one out & just work on improving a few articles? (Or I could take the rest of the day off & play with my 3-year-old daughter, if someone does object.) -- llywrch (talk) 05:37, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
Powerful conspiracy uncovered!
See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Jimbo Wales The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 02:16, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- I'm rather concerned about your investigative skills, since you didn't connect my account to the others. Wait, wait, get that hammer away from.... — Huntster (t @ c) 02:23, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Oh my! Am I imagining things? I have to wake up... Bejinhan talks 02:40, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- They should have done Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Spartacus and just listed everyone... HalfShadow 03:25, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- This is Sparta? Drat. I knew I should have taken that left turn at Albuquerque. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (talk) 03:27, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- They should have done Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Spartacus and just listed everyone... HalfShadow 03:25, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Oh my! Am I imagining things? I have to wake up... Bejinhan talks 02:40, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
Sockpuppetry case
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Your name has been mentioned in connection with a sockpuppetry case. Please refer to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Spartacus for evidence. Please make sure you make yourself familiar with the guide to responding to cases before editing the evidence page. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:48, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
Excuse me, is this the way to the men's room? Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:20, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
April fools
There have been several different april-fools things on various different parts of en.wikipedia today. In principle, at least one of them should be funny rather than being a banal annoyance. Has anybody found the genuinely funny one yet? I'll report back here if I find it. —Preceding signature removed by DoNotSignBot.
- I've been trying to find a suitable article to insert the claim that Doctor Who had contracted the Rash of Sassilon; can anybody help? Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 17:24, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
I know I'm going to get killed for this...
I'm not totally anti April Fools Day, but can we at least stop nominating the main AFD page for deletion? We are on a recruitment drive, we really need new editors, and the last thing we need to do is confuse new editors. Can we maybe limit it to less visible pages? Kansan (talk) 05:34, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- If it's any consolation, I AfD'ed the AfD page for AfD. But then someone AfD'ed that. Seriously, though, I suspect the new editors can figure out from the "this page is humorous" boxes that this is just some harmless April 1 fun. As long as the articles are kept strictly off-limits for the funnin', I'm not too worried about the project pages containing some temporary levity. 28bytes (talk) 05:47, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- You can have the AFD ... but you don't need a confusing notice at the top of WP:AFD to do it. Just transclude it in the daily AFD list or put a notification on the talk page or something. When you put a banner like that at the top of a major process page, you confuse users. --B (talk) 05:50, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- I think B's compromise seems very sensible. I'm not trying to cause problems here at all; I'm just remembering how confused I was when I was new to Wikipedia and trying to navigate through the site, figuring it out it works. I probably would have seen that and assumed there was a serious community proposal to shutter the AFD process. Kansan (talk) 05:54, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- So... Fanny Scratching doesn't confuse new editors? And since I haven't seen a case yet where someone was actually "confused" by the AFD... I find it ridiculous to think that a new editor would be driven away from the project from a simple tag at the top of a page. — Coffee // have a cup // essay // 05:55, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- There's a difference between providing a silly but accurate hook to an article and putting up a statement that is false. Yes, nobody has said they were confused by the AFD, but the type of person who would be confused is a brand new potential editor who would either not know where to bring their concerns or who might just assume it is for real. You may say it is "ridiculous", but I tried to get a friend of mine to edit, and she told me she was too intimidated by the way the site works. While much of our current system is inevitably going to be complicated, in general, the less confusing the better. Kansan (talk) 06:05, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- So... Fanny Scratching doesn't confuse new editors? And since I haven't seen a case yet where someone was actually "confused" by the AFD... I find it ridiculous to think that a new editor would be driven away from the project from a simple tag at the top of a page. — Coffee // have a cup // essay // 05:55, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- I think B's compromise seems very sensible. I'm not trying to cause problems here at all; I'm just remembering how confused I was when I was new to Wikipedia and trying to navigate through the site, figuring it out it works. I probably would have seen that and assumed there was a serious community proposal to shutter the AFD process. Kansan (talk) 05:54, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- You can have the AFD ... but you don't need a confusing notice at the top of WP:AFD to do it. Just transclude it in the daily AFD list or put a notification on the talk page or something. When you put a banner like that at the top of a major process page, you confuse users. --B (talk) 05:50, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- I think you are confusing a relatively harmless (but dumb) prank on a process page which new users rarely see with general UI complexity. I'm also a bit confused about the "we are on a recruitment drive" statement. We always want new editors. Protonk (talk) 06:23, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- It's one day a year. I hear CostCo is doing a special on senses of humour. tfeilS (talk) 08:57, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Once upon a time, someone did delete AfD.Thread about it from WikiEN-l. Anyone else remember it? -- llywrch (talk) 14:33, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- I remember, that was funny.....think it got Uncle G in some hot water. RxS (talk) 15:14, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
User:BruceFisher at Talk:Murder of Meredith Kercher
There is zero possibility that an administrator, including the fabled "uninvolved" one whose status lasts exactly as long as they make no comment, is going to act upon this matter. Take it back to the various dispute resolution boards, or on the article talkpage, or whatever... LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:15, 2 April 2011 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I am concerned about the conduct at Talk:Murder of Meredith Kercher on the part of BruceFisher (talk · contribs), who has just started a new thread (see base of this diff) with the sole aim of calling for another user to cease editing the talk page's associated article. Without substantiation, he claims that the user in question has "compromised himself by posting on an advocacy site" and has "clearly shown bias", finally ordering that he "recuse himself from editing". This development is merely the latest incident in a catalogue of uncivil behaviour from BruceFisher, who has issued similar demands in earlier edits within the last week and has made attacks on other editors, again without foundation. His most recent actions strike me more for their complete disregard for the purpose of talk pages – namely, that such pages are intended for discussion about the topic of an article as opposed to a user's (alleged, if not improbable) misconduct. In the spirit of discussing content, not contributors, I initially considered blanking the entire section of the talk page as a long, baseless personal attack. However, since I am an involved editor at the Murder of Meredith Kercher article and talk page, I have decided to seek a second opinion at the Administrator's Noticeboard. I feel that this tirade cannot stand, and that a warning on the subject of this kind of behaviour is now firmly warranted. Regards, SuperMarioMan 06:10, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
Just for completing the record, let's also point out that SPA BruceFisher (talk · contribs) runs his own outside advocacy blog, Injustice in Perugia, and that the totality of his actions here are limited to WP:ABF, attacks, insinuation and innuendo against other editors, loud calls for recusal, and attempting to get their own book added into the article. MLauba (Talk) 09:15, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
It's a "foot in mouth" comment (by FormerIP), certainly, but looks fine to me... Bringing it up on the talk page like that is a big no-no. Does BruceFisher have a constructive history at the page? (i.e. in terms of discussing content). If not is an appropriate sanction some form of topic ban? It might resolve some issues if he was restricted from the Kercher topic for a bit (say, 3 months?) --Errant (chat!) 10:08, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
I am little surprised by this discussion. The MoMK talk page has been a source of contention for a long time. Generally, though, the site has been dominated by a group of editors who seemed to be protecting a specific POV and who engaged in bullying and Wiki-lawyering to prevent other editors from editing. To me, this looks like another example. Bruce's edit was not very helpful, nor, do I think, it was very off base. User Hipocrite basically did the same thing, [42], except it was merely the beginning of a series of personal attacks and disruptive editing. I really hope we don't fall back into the bad old days when one group of editors which seem to have one view on the article/case gain control over the other through means like this.LedRush (talk) 11:18, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
How can Bruce's comment reasonably be described as a 'tirade' or 'uncivil'? It is neither. None of Bruce's posts have been uncivil, unlike the many extremely rude posts I have seen from people like FormerIP and Hipocrite.```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by CodyJoeBibby (talk • contribs) 16:52, 1 April 2011 (UTC) This template must be substituted.
I'm new to Wikipedia so I apologise if my comment was made in the wrong place. I don't think my claim was 'wild'.The editor in question has a fairly distinctive username and the odds against a person with that exact name editing almost exclusively the MOMK page on Wikipedia and posting almost exclusively on Amanda knox videos on YouTube seem somewhat high. I'll try to work out how to speak to the editor directly as suggested. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CodyJoeBibby (talk • contribs) 07:28, 2 April 2011 (UTC) This template must be substituted.
FormerIP took full credit for his comments posted on the True Justice site. This information is all available on this page. FormerIP also took time to post a note on Jimbo Wales' talk page that he posted the comments. I did not make a wild accusation. With that information known, it is up to the others here to decide whether or not his comments were appropriate. Keep in mind that FormerIP has recorded the most edits of any editor on the Meredith Kercher page. For the record, FormerIP continues to participate in the conversation at the True Justice site. I am an advocate so therefor I don't edit. FormerIP has shown himself to be an advocate also. BruceFisher (talk) 06:16, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Attempts by some above to present this as an attempt to violate WP:UNDUE by covering both sides equally because one side is WP:FRINGE is exactly why the article has had a huge and still very substantial POV slant. This is not a WP:FRINGE topic in the slightest, as outside experts pretty much are split (with perhaps a greater number favoring the idea that Sollecito and Knox are innocent, at least in recent news coverage). The appeal is not over, and the judge granted the appeal has said the appeal can cover the totality of the original case. There is not a single part that is not currently under active legal dispute, and even if the trial were over this is clearly extremely controverial. Rather, it is the editing by some editors, as well as a couple of admins who aren't hesitating to throw their admin status weight around in making threats to block (and in the past even outright blocks) based solely on POV, that is pushing one side as if it were the only side that is making this article so incredibly unbalanced that it got User:JimboWales' direct attention. Let me just point out that the part in the lead even mentioning that the case is controversial was not allowed there until very recently after several editors tried to remove all mention of it. In fact right now the wording there is WP:WEASELly. On top of that we still do not have content supporting the most notable critics of the case, like Douglas Preston, Steve Moore, outside forensics experts, Candace Dempsey and so forth in all but the briefest of mentions. This is a POV stranglehold in the extreme, and it seems to be enforced by rushed, sloppy and slanted actions taken by WP:INVOLVED admins. Please, can we get admins who are WP:UNINVOLVED to take a look, as some of the comments above are absurdly slanted -- probably not intentionally, but that's why bias is so damaging. DreamGuy (talk) 14:46, 2 April 2011 (UTC) |
User:Biophily does WP:POINT editing to "test" me (reported by User:OpenFuture)
- Biophily (talk · contribs · block log)
- OpenFuture (talk · contribs · block log)
I'm at a loss about how to handle this, so I'm going here directly. Full story:
The Jacque Fresco article previously contained pretty much only information on The Venus Project. I moved that information over, and what was left was only a unreferenced stub, so I instead redirected it to The Venus Project. Some people took issue with this, including Biophily. However, he was already then working on a new version of the article, which he recently put up. There has been some discussion on what to include there, my main problem is that many of the claims made are sourced indirectly to Jacque Fresco himself, via interviews in papers and in one case some YouTube videos. I've tried to discuss this to build consensus, but I didn't really think we were getting much forward in the discussion, and was planning to take that another level soon, via a Third Opinion as the number of people involved is pretty much me an Biophily.
Yesterday I reverted an addition as the source of the claim was clearly not reliable. A motivational speaker was used as a source about Jaque Fresco's economic ideas. This prompted the following reaction from Biophily: [45] The relevant parts are these:
- "When you delete praise which you claim is illegitimate, yet you don't delete clear and obvious libel which I intentionally included to test you, suggests you may have a bias. Beware of the experiment."
That's editing to make a point. It's also a sort if baiting I guess. He is intentionally including information he thinks shouldn't be there, to try to somehow trip me up and prove and point. That seems like a very strange way to behave. How much of this article is now some sort of bait? This one was extremely subtle as he thinks he made a negative claim, while I thought it was positive. Does he do this with other editors? It's going to be very hard to Assume Good Faith with an editor that readily admits that he doesn't do things in good faith. --OpenFuture (talk) 06:32, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- If I may defend myself, I didn't include the information thinking it shouldn't be there. I included it *uncertain* of whether it should be there. I expected editor consensus to determine if it should be there. Despite pointing that out, no one responded to me. The statement I made (you quoted above), I would restate as, "When you delete praise which you claim is contentious, yet you don't delete equally contentious criticism, it suggests you are not fulfilling your duties as an editor, to either change it or discuss it." This is the actual fact of the matter. I didn't create the article with a plan to bait you, it was merely an exagerated whimsical after thought used to make a point in the Elaine Smitha discussion to suggest that you were not being balanced in your editorial conduct. Though I realize the difficulty in redeeming my previous statement that you quoted. It does look bad. But I was BSing. At this time I have not moved on to edit other articles until I am finished with this one. This is the first article to which I have given major contribution. Therefore its impossible for me to have tried to "bait" other editors as you have suggested. I recommend the administrator look at my history of edits to verify this.
- Regarding good faith, I did enter with good faith from the very beginning, however I noticed a pattern in your responses to other editors (now archived) that made me wonder about your own good faith towards others. You were very sarcastic and discouraging in some cases, believing that a new Fresco article could not be made.--Biophily (talk) 11:57, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- I'm also unsure if much of it should be there. And I have responded to these things. I've also already said that I don't think that Fresco himself is a good source for the claim that he converted a group of KKK people. It does seem to me to be an acceptable source for the statement that he was involved with the KKK, as that is not a self-serving claim. Your attempt to pin some sort of bias on me therefore rests on entirely fictional grounds.
- Indeed, I didn't believe that there would be grounds for a new article, and I was wrong. I didn't think you could do it, because you repeatedly claimed that sources for notability could be found, but yet you refused to produce one such source. As a result I thought you didn't have any. Sarcastic, no. Did I say "So, do it then" a lot, yes I did.
- Before you claimed to try to test me. You now claim that you didn't try to test me? One of the statements is obviously false. You lost my trust, and will have to regain it. Sorry. --OpenFuture (talk) 14:31, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- You're right, joining the KKK is not a self-serving claim. However that is only half the claim. To include it would be incomplete and a manipulative attempt to portray Fresco in a libelous light, which I believe is what Sloane may have tried to do when he first introduced the KKK claim.
- I realize that I have stupidly jeopardized trust (thanks to my lack of sleep and deterioration of rational judgment), but my initial concern still stands: Why did you delete an opinion of praise, but not delete the KKK claim even though they are both contentious by your judgment? Aren't both unreliably sourced and doesn't the KKK claim defy Wikipedia's policy for libel? From this I suspected bias and tried to pin it on you by claiming to have rigged something to show it. I regret it, but my initial concern still stands as stated above, though I don't know if I have the right to ask why you do and don't do something. But I have the right to wonder.--Biophily (talk) 15:59, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- I believe I have answered this on the talk page now. From my viewpoint this issue has now been handled as best as it could, and the issue is now closed. --OpenFuture (talk) 19:18, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
Timeline of events leading to the American Civil War
Timeline of events leading to the American Civil War (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Rjensen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Donner60 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I found some instances of WP:SYN on Timeline of events leading to the American Civil War which I tried to address without much success with the editors involved, User:Donner60 and User:Rjensen. In the process I started finding plagerized statements from one source that I happened to be able to read via Google Books, Wagner, Margaret E., Gary W. Gallagher, and Paul Finkelman. The Library of Congress Civil War Desk Reference. (2009) ISBN 978-1-4391-4884-6, page 59-63 google books. I've found nine instances of plagiarism so far which I detailed on the talk page. I haven't researched all of them, but a few were added by Donner60 on February 20th - diff.
While reporting the copyvio, apparently Rjensen decided to simply delete the template and keep editing the article. I documented 7 more instances of plagiarism, including a second source, and today I restored the page to the copyvio version, and I'm reporting this as an incident so the copyvios get 7 days to be researched.
This article contains mostly sources that are only available in print, and there are hundreds of citations to check. Some statements were plagiarized before these two editors were involved, then while they were trying to add citations simply cited the plagiarism making it easy to find - I don't understand why they didn't rewrite the statements at that point. One plagiarized statement is in the oldest edit from 2004. No one wants to blank the article but it would be very complex to remove the individual instances of plagiarism; especially considering the editors involved don't seem to take wikipedia policies seriously. Thank you for your assistance. Kirk (talk) 14:05, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- You may find Wikipedia:Copyright problems a more useful place to post this. (And spelling the word "plagiarism" wouldn't hurt.) -- llywrch (talk) 14:48, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Did you even read his post? He followed the instructions on wp:copyright problems, but ended up in an edit war when trying to place the {{copyvio}} template. I will place the template again and suggest the page is protected and relevant editors warned if it is removed again. Yoenit (talk) 16:58, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Well, spelling things right would have helped, sorry about that! I already reported this & Yoenit understood my request. ThanksKirk (talk) 17:09, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Did you even read his post? He followed the instructions on wp:copyright problems, but ended up in an edit war when trying to place the {{copyvio}} template. I will place the template again and suggest the page is protected and relevant editors warned if it is removed again. Yoenit (talk) 16:58, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
User:Forever true
I came across this user (Forever true (talk · contribs)) who seems to be using Wikipedia mainly as a vehicle to promote his book, and as a battleground (insisting on debating either Richard Dawkins or other editors, I can't tell).[46] They've even removed material from Talk:Richard Dawkins and replaced it with debate challenges.[47] Somewhere in their user talk page, which mostly consists of incomprehensible rants, there appears to be what may seem like a veiled legal threat, but I honestly can't tell what is meant. Kansan (talk) 15:09, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- This user has actually made legal threats (I had to warn him on one), and is spamming incomprehensible arguments that, if we get rid of the article on his book (which is at AFD and currently trended deletion as non-notable), he's threating we should get rid of other articles on various topics that surround the science-vs-religion debate. I would at least AGF until the AFD closes, after which if he continues to engage, blocking would be appropriate. --MASEM (t) 15:15, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Book of Pure Logic now speedily deleted as spam. Related user page versions at User:Forever true/Book of Pure Logic and User:Forever true/Pure Logic also tagged for speedy deletion. – ukexpat (talk) 15:49, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
The user's edits as 96.55.192.149 (talk · contribs) are also self-promotional and confrontational. I think there are severe WP:COI and WP:COMPETENCE issue...here are some choice edits:[48][49][50][51] I think a block of the account & IP, perhaps with a standard offer, is appropriate. — Scientizzle 16:05, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- I've blocked Forever true (talk · contribs) indefinitely and 96.55.192.149 (talk · contribs) for 72 hours. I provided some reading material and suggestion in the block message... — Scientizzle 16:21, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
Featured article link on main page reads "Fanny scratching"
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
... but links to article on Cock Lane Ghost -- the ghost in question's given name apparently was "Fanny" and she was known as 'Scratching Fanny' but I'm thinking some enterprising vandal inverted the order from "Scratching Fanny" -- it makes it sound like a practice rather than a person. I mention this here b/c it's the main page and is protected -- apologies if this isn't the correct venue. Thanks. BrideOfKripkenstein (talk) 15:33, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- And if that *is* in fact correct then I recognize it's a content issue and doesn't belong here. BrideOfKripkenstein (talk) 15:35, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- *wandering through the page* Buttscratcher! Get yer buttscratcher! *wanders off* --Alan the Roving Ambassador (talk) 15:43, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- And if that *is* in fact correct then I recognize it's a content issue and doesn't belong here. BrideOfKripkenstein (talk) 15:35, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- It's intentional - it's April Fools Day, remember, and Malleus and Raul654 composed the summary, complete with Fanny Scratching. Acroterion (talk) 15:38, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, Malleus Fatuorum made the most significant start to the blurb. Raul and Malleus hammered the rest out between them. I think the blurb's most preposterous wording was the best. I love April 1 tomfoolery and heartily endorse it. Binksternet (talk) 15:50, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- In American vernacular fanny refers to the buttocks but in the British it refers to the female genitalia. So basically you have an April Fools joke about female masturbation to your British audience. For an international resource that is just classy. Wee Curry Monster talk 15:58, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Coming from someone who's name indicates xe is urinating on the curry monster.--Cube lurker (talk) 18:55, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- In American vernacular fanny refers to the buttocks but in the British it refers to the female genitalia. So basically you have an April Fools joke about female masturbation to your British audience. For an international resource that is just classy. Wee Curry Monster talk 15:58, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- I assumed that was intentional (...Cock Lane) since I've heard that the UK meaning of fanny is now familiar in the US. DeCausa (talk) 16:26, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- I assume this was especially popular along Gropecunt Lane... The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:37, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- I assumed that was intentional (...Cock Lane) since I've heard that the UK meaning of fanny is now familiar in the US. DeCausa (talk) 16:26, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
That's actually a real legend, I went on a ghost tour in that area and it's an oft told story. And yes there really is a Cock Lane in London, it's near St Paul's Cathedral --Blackmane (talk) 02:29, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
The account Danielclements (talk · contribs · central auth · count · email) has an obvious singular purpose of promoting the website www.pendulumofmayfair.co.uk. See brief contribution history, previous warnings,[52] and User_talk:Jeffro77#Nebuchenezzar_Edited_link. The editor has previously made reference to "a clock we have in our collection",[53] indicating that the editor is directly affiliated with the promoted website.--Jeffro77 (talk) 16:20, 1 April 2011 (UTC) (The editor also e-mailed me using Wikipedia's e-mail function, with the same [benign] text as at my Talk page. I have not replied. The editor's e-mail address is the e-mail address on the website promoted by the editor.--Jeffro77 (talk) 16:51, 1 April 2011 (UTC))
Some of the pages at the site to which other Wikipedia articles have previously been linked by the editor have been modified to say the particular page is 'for Wikipedia research only', though the purpose still seems to be to direct traffic to the site. It is my understanding that if the site is notable as an information resource about grandfather clocks then independent editors would be linking to it.--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:47, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- After your hurtful comments, I do wonder why I bother. Again I promise you I have never tried to use this site for commercial purposes, even though i know many other dealers do. We provide many hours helping people that have never even met us, valuing and providing info free of charge on their clocks. Like I have said previously my father was editor of the Millers Antiques Price Guide up until 1984. I have been on national tv about clocks. By the way I blanked the page because again someone misunderstood the reason for a link. They see a commercial site yes but do not realize, not everything is based on selling. We do as I have said provide f.o.c. help for people. The link you deleted just ask within the section if they think it would have been useful within that section. I can guarantee they would have had a different view to you. Nevermind. From this time forth, I am not going to bother waste my time trying to provide useful information for this site. It is your loss, I do not need such ridiculous incorrect and hurtful comments as to you and the other editor once provided
- Daniel — Preceding unsigned comment added by Danielclements (talk • contribs) 10:43, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Hurtful? There's a policy, and you're not following it. All of your edits to articles have been in relation to adding an external link to your own commercial website. If you were merely concerned about providing information, you would add article content with a reliable source. That's all there is to it.--Jeffro77 (talk) 14:03, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Enforcement of non-free content policy
I'm being repeatedly reverted while trying to enforce the non-free content policy on Interpretations of 2001: A Space Odyssey, where the non-free image File:2001child2.JPG is being used as a top decoration (see the article's history and the file's history).
The fair use rationale's says the image is necessary because one of the article's sections discusses a certain passage in the movie captured by the image. But not only the discussion is obviously not about the "visual aspect" of the passage, but the image is also not even placed on the mentioned section.
I'm reporting here because I can preview the outcome of being reverted again, being myself reported at 3RR, and being blocked for that. I hope someone with a better reputation than mine could interfere to do the policy enforcement. --Damiens.rf 16:53, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- I have no comment on the actual merits of the image, but just saying, you probably should not add speedy tags to an image that has either survived a previous deletion discussion or is currently being discussed. If you still want it deleted, you should start a new FfD with an explanation of why the "keep" !voters in the previous one failed to address your concerns. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 16:59, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not asking it to be deleted. I'm just removing it from the article where it's used as a decoration. --Damiens.rf 17:01, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, did somebody hack into your account? --RussNelson (talk) 16:54, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not asking it to be deleted. I'm just removing it from the article where it's used as a decoration. --Damiens.rf 17:01, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Because 1) the image otherwise conforms to the basic requirements of NFCC (has a rationale, licensed, and used in at least one article, in addition to the use you are contesting), and 2) it is a disagreement over whether the image is really needed or not (eg does it meet NFCC#8), it is not a good idea to edit war on image removal. You should try discussing the image inclusion on the talk page, and, failing that, at Non-free content review to discuss that specific usage. --MASEM (t) 17:07, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- I observe that you have not engaged editors on the page about this topic. Please try discussing your objection to the image before outright waring to have it removed. Hasteur (talk) 17:11, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Whether a fair use image is validly used or not in an article is a content dispute that should be resolved through discussion (WP:DR), not by reverting. People may in good faith disagree about this, and edit-warring about this matter is just as disruptive as edit-warring about any other content issue, such as whether any content is original research or has undue weight. Sandstein 17:20, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
Article's editor's will always want to put as much images on "their" article, and nfcc would never be respected. I don't thing enforcing a policy needs to be discussed on talk page, since it's not an editorial decision. I'll try the non-free content review link you posted. Is it really active? --Damiens.rf 17:38, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps the complaining editor should have discussed the issue on the article's talk page, where other editors were discussing it. Dreadstar ☥ 17:33, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Don't try to create an animosity. You know I've discussed the matter with you. --Damiens.rf 17:42, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Considering the nature of the star-child, I doubt very much that someone's attempt to "describe it" is adequate. The visual speaks a thousand words. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:16, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- The "visual" is not discussed in the article. --Damiens.rf 18:24, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Why not? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:34, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Probably because no one found a reliable source that does that. --Damiens.rf 20:13, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- The image is discussed in the article, check out the lead and the section it's currently in. And if you don't think there are plenty of sources for that most iconic image of the entire movie, then you really haven't looked at the 2001:A Space Odyssey articles at all. Dreadstar ☥ 22:14, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Probably because no one found a reliable source that does that. --Damiens.rf 20:13, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Why not? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:34, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- The "visual" is not discussed in the article. --Damiens.rf 18:24, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Considering the nature of the star-child, I doubt very much that someone's attempt to "describe it" is adequate. The visual speaks a thousand words. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:16, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Don't try to create an animosity. You know I've discussed the matter with you. --Damiens.rf 17:42, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- WP:Concensus, try it. If several editors are against you in the interpertation of policy, it could be a sign that you're not reading it correctly. Hasteur (talk) 18:39, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- This has been listed at WP:NFR, and that's the best venue for the discussion. fteSil (talk) 19:37, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
Round two
Rally to Restore Sanity and/or Fear (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Facepalm Damien is again pulling the same stunt at Rally to Restore Sanity and/or Fear over some text The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs
- It appears that Damiens has no respect for consensus and is forum shopping to every single venue he can in order to make his views fit. He's now added the first one to: Wikipedia:Non-free_content_review#File:2001child2.JPG. Dreadstar ☥ 22:05, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- What the fuck? I was advised here on this thread to bring it up to Wikipedia:Non-free_content_review#File:2001child2.JPG. Stop making a confrontation out of everything. I'm sick of you treating me as a second class editor. --Damiens.rf 01:04, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- This language is not helpful, but Dreadstar, that is indeed the place for this debate to happen. Talk pages and even ANI are not for detailed copyright discussions, as I learned recently over the Khaled Said image. No comment on the image itself, or Damiens' behavior, but there's no question that forum shopping doesn't apply to getting to the right place. Ocaasi c 02:13, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Damiens you were advised to address it on the article's talk page before bringing it ot NFCR, you didn't do that,first second so save the profanity for elsewhere. Dreadstar ☥ 02:39, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Besides going against WP:CONSENSUS, the point is that the editor has been forum shopping all along. Lucky now that it's in the right forum, eh? And none of this excuses Damiens edit warring. This isn't Damiens' first rodeo. Dreadstar ☥ 02:27, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- What the fuck? I was advised here on this thread to bring it up to Wikipedia:Non-free_content_review#File:2001child2.JPG. Stop making a confrontation out of everything. I'm sick of you treating me as a second class editor. --Damiens.rf 01:04, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
I screwed up a move and made a redirect by mistake
Index of ancient Egypt-related articles
Please speedy delete it per G6.
Thank you. The Transhumanist 21:52, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedian detained by campus police for taking pictures
Template:Image I was taking pictures of buildings of a two-year public college in New Jersey called Union County College (UCC) when I was detained by campus security for a half an hour. Most pictures were of buildings, classrooms, plaques on walls, an empty gym. I was going to add them to the UCC article. Two pictures had students (all over 18 yrs old) in it (but I got their email addresses and permission to use their photos). Campus security said: no pictures. Officer John Britton took my drivers' license for information. He only told me his name; he wouldn't show any ID or badge. I got the impression that if I kept taking pictures they would either forcibly remove me from campus or arrest me. They didn't take my camera. About student pictures, I am not sure what the overall rules or legality is, so I won't post pictures of students. But buildings? Empty classrooms? Paid for out of taxpayer dollars? A public two-year community college in New Jersey? Sheesh.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 01:04, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, I'm wondering how to do this.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 01:13, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- I do not really think this is an issue that theEnglish Wikipedia can handle.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 01:17, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Whether or not they have the legal right to, that rarely stops cops from detaining people over taking pictures. Sorry, just the mistrustful of government cynic in me showing through. As to ArbCom, all the information is on this page, where you can find info on contacting them on-wiki, opening a case, and even contains some of their personal e-mails. かんぱい! Scapler (talk) 01:23, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- I do not really think this is an issue that theEnglish Wikipedia can handle.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 01:17, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, I'm wondering how to do this.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 01:13, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Did you get your drivers license back? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:25, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Did you remind them that its a public school?--JOJ Hutton 01:30, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Copping an attitude with cops is typically not the best approach. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:39, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Not me, I'd give them attitude. As long as I know that I'm not breaking any laws, I would give them as much grief as lawfully possible. Most likely they know that they can't do anything to you, but will go as far as they think they can go, before going too far.--JOJ Hutton 01:49, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- It's your funeral, as they say. :) My philosophy is to never argue with somebody with a gun and/or club attached to their belt. :) In the case of these cops, my guess is that they are under orders to disallow picture taking, and they might not be at liberty to say why. But if a cop told me, "No pictures", I wouldn't launch into some spiel about civil rights or something. I would simply act surprised (or maybe I wouldn't have to "act") and then ask, "Really? Why?" and they'll either tell you why or they won't. If they won't, then a call to the administrative office might clear it up. But as I've found out from past experience, you'll get a lot better karma with cops if you treat them like folks with a job to do, and act friendly and cooperative toward them, than if you treat them as adversaries. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:04, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Not me, I'd give them attitude. As long as I know that I'm not breaking any laws, I would give them as much grief as lawfully possible. Most likely they know that they can't do anything to you, but will go as far as they think they can go, before going too far.--JOJ Hutton 01:49, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Copping an attitude with cops is typically not the best approach. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:39, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Did you remind them that its a public school?--JOJ Hutton 01:30, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Not much we can do here. Be honest with them and they shouldn't give you trouble. They're just ensuring the security of campus. Tell them what you're up to and unless you caught him before his coffee and donut you'll be okay. N419BH 01:32, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Keep in mind this is the New York City area, where there is probably still some terrorist-threat mentality. And who knows what kinds of incidents they've had that may have impelled them to disallow picture taking. Howeover, what Tom ought to do is contact the administration and ask for permission to take snapshots. Get something in writing and hand it to the cops if they bug you again. Above all, be friendly and courteous to the cops. Don't do anything that they will see as impeding their ability to do their jobs. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:39, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks everybody for advice. Yes got Drivers license back. Basically not much to do, but be polite, etc. --Tomwsulcer (talk) 01:41, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Please keep in mind that being paid for by tax dollars doesn't mean what it sounds like. The jail is paid for by tax dollars, but you can't just wander in it and start taking pics, right? Drive around taking pictures of the fence that tax dollars put around the airport and there is a fair chance you'll be questioned. In the future, maybe get in touch with the administration (or maybe the computer science dept) and get someone to tell you it's all cool. It could save time in the end. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:54, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks everybody for advice. Yes got Drivers license back. Basically not much to do, but be polite, etc. --Tomwsulcer (talk) 01:41, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Keep in mind this is the New York City area, where there is probably still some terrorist-threat mentality. And who knows what kinds of incidents they've had that may have impelled them to disallow picture taking. Howeover, what Tom ought to do is contact the administration and ask for permission to take snapshots. Get something in writing and hand it to the cops if they bug you again. Above all, be friendly and courteous to the cops. Don't do anything that they will see as impeding their ability to do their jobs. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:39, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Not much we can do here. Be honest with them and they shouldn't give you trouble. They're just ensuring the security of campus. Tell them what you're up to and unless you caught him before his coffee and donut you'll be okay. N419BH 01:32, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
So, no student at the school has ever used a cell phone to take of a photo of the place, even if only as incidental background to the usual teenage snaps? Silly policing. HiLo48 (talk) 01:48, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Maybe, but if he wants more photos he should call the school's administrative office and ask what the deal is. Some of us would like to know. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:53, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Apart from the buildings possibly being protected by architectural copyright, I would say upload away.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 01:51, 2 April 2011 (UTC)- I have new pictures. Upload? I was thinking along these lines. I was told drawings are okay. So I could substitute drawings of the buildings for the pictures. Then UCC will be happy. Wouldn't this be a good solution? I sometimes think of myself as a great arteeeste (nobody else thinks so!). --Tomwsulcer (talk) 01:55, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Next time, try taking pictures of the buildings at USC.[54] ;) Will Beback talk 02:00, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- I love the fact that it was the Daily Trojan reporting...how apropos is that?
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 02:05, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- I love the fact that it was the Daily Trojan reporting...how apropos is that?
- Hey thanks Will. Great story. Here's what I was thinking:--Tomwsulcer (talk) 02:02, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Next time, try taking pictures of the buildings at USC.[54] ;) Will Beback talk 02:00, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- I have new pictures. Upload? I was thinking along these lines. I was told drawings are okay. So I could substitute drawings of the buildings for the pictures. Then UCC will be happy. Wouldn't this be a good solution? I sometimes think of myself as a great arteeeste (nobody else thinks so!). --Tomwsulcer (talk) 01:55, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- You forgot to add a small likeness of a brownshirt standing guard. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:07, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, see picture above.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 02:13, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- You forgot to add a small likeness of a brownshirt standing guard. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:07, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Here's a link to an outline of the law as it applies to photography in the United States; it's been extensively circulated among photographers and is useful to keep with you [55]. However, a college campus isn't exactly public space, and much depends on what's a public street and what's not. Acroterion (talk) 02:56, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
You're posting in the wrong place; there's nothing an enwiki admin can help you with here. I'd suggest contacting a licensed legal professional. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 03:46, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Calling the school would be the best option. Probably have to wait until Monday. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:50, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Bugs, I think has hit on the answer. Please keep in mind that even if you don't give cops cause to arrest you, they don't have to stretch the truth very much to make your life miserable. For example, when they took your DL, they probably called in to check for warrants. He can take his time about doing that, and what are you going to do? And I don't even want to start on patdowns and automobile searches. I would be polite, say something like "I didn't know that, thanks." Don't get smart with them, get out of their jurisdiction pronto, and Monday morning, if it's worth making an issue over, call campus information and start looking for the responsible official. Don't call the campus police, let the official do that if you are lucky enough to get action. And if you then go back (I would not, I would ask your students for help if more images are needed), take a printout of the email in which he says its OK to take images on campus.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:09, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- And, btw, a college campus is not a true public place. There are generally statutes or ordinances which allow them to restrict access. You don't want to be restricted from campus, that sort of thing goes into computers.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:13, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- You raise good points, and something else just occurred to me: You know how cops will sometimes pull someone over due to "a taillight out" or something like that? As a policeman acquaintance once told me, that's a "pretext" to justify pulling over someone that they've got an odd feeling about. So it's possible that the cops, for whatever reason, thought the OP "looked suspicious", so they used the camera thing as a pretext to running the ID through their system. Dollars to donuts, that's what was actually going on there. It would be good, next time, if there is a next time, to have documentation permitting photography. That will legitimize your being there. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:20, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- And as the Supreme Court has upheld many times, pretext stops are perfectly fine. BTW, making a cartoon and calling them "dicks" is really kinda childish, don't ya think. Niteshift36 (talk) 05:10, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, but maybe they have a bugaboo about photography on campus because of some incident or other. I would not assume you'd get a different deal next time, especially if you run into the same cops, who might make an issue out of general principles. Only go back if you have your ducks in a row.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:24, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- You raise good points, and something else just occurred to me: You know how cops will sometimes pull someone over due to "a taillight out" or something like that? As a policeman acquaintance once told me, that's a "pretext" to justify pulling over someone that they've got an odd feeling about. So it's possible that the cops, for whatever reason, thought the OP "looked suspicious", so they used the camera thing as a pretext to running the ID through their system. Dollars to donuts, that's what was actually going on there. It would be good, next time, if there is a next time, to have documentation permitting photography. That will legitimize your being there. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:20, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- And, btw, a college campus is not a true public place. There are generally statutes or ordinances which allow them to restrict access. You don't want to be restricted from campus, that sort of thing goes into computers.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:13, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Bugs, I think has hit on the answer. Please keep in mind that even if you don't give cops cause to arrest you, they don't have to stretch the truth very much to make your life miserable. For example, when they took your DL, they probably called in to check for warrants. He can take his time about doing that, and what are you going to do? And I don't even want to start on patdowns and automobile searches. I would be polite, say something like "I didn't know that, thanks." Don't get smart with them, get out of their jurisdiction pronto, and Monday morning, if it's worth making an issue over, call campus information and start looking for the responsible official. Don't call the campus police, let the official do that if you are lucky enough to get action. And if you then go back (I would not, I would ask your students for help if more images are needed), take a printout of the email in which he says its OK to take images on campus.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:09, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- From a Commons perspective, photography restrictions on private property are a non-copyright restriction, which basically means you may be illegally trespassing to take the photos, but if you pull it off, we'll take them (without necessarily endorsing your actions). Also, in the US, architectural copyright falls under freedom of panorama, so there is no copyright issue in uploading photos of buildings; moreover there is no US law restricting candid photographs of persons (personality rights law only restricts the use of a person's image for promotion), and our policy on identifiable people does not restrict any photograph of a person taken in a public place where a person has no reasonable expectation of privacy.
- As for the cops, personally, I'd consider placing photography restrictions on a public school campus as a gross abuse of the government's responsibility to represent the interests of the people in places and functions where public funding is involved, and if that happened to me I would lawyer up and talk to the press about it too. But that's a big investment and your response is up to you. :-) Dcoetzee 04:39, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Not really an admin idea, but I'd call the local media and see if a reporter wants a 'freedoms being denied' story for this week's paper/broadcast. Tony Fox (arf!) 04:49, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps with age I've learned that not every windmill is worth having a tilt with.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:54, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- As Wehwalt said earlier, get your ducks in a row before taking any kind of action. And one of those ducks would be to find out whether they have such a policy, and if so, why. I'm tempted to call them myself on Monday. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:56, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Even better: their student handbook says that College staff can take pictures of anyone, anywhere on campus; these pictures become the property of the school, individuals depicted have no right to compensation. — they wanna take their own pictures and market them. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 05:15, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Methinks you've found the "smoking duck". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:35, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- ...and the smoking dicks. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 05:58, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Well, that's actually fairly reasonable. They don't want to worry about compensation and rights when assembling school materials.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:08, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Nope. Release forms need to be signed or else the pictures can't be used. What they're doing won't stand a chance in court should someone sue them (that's AZ, maybe NJ is full of dickheads). In any case, this whole thing is ridiculous; as long as there are no identifiable people on the pics, the OP should happily keep uploading them. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 06:29, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Well, that's actually fairly reasonable. They don't want to worry about compensation and rights when assembling school materials.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:08, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Even better: their student handbook says that College staff can take pictures of anyone, anywhere on campus; these pictures become the property of the school, individuals depicted have no right to compensation. — they wanna take their own pictures and market them. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 05:15, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
First off, as mentioned above, if the building remains copyrighted under Freedom of Panorama, then it cannot be uploaded as a free image. Secondly, as far as the cops are concerned, yeah, I would be a little concerned as far as their actions, but there are several things I would like to comment on right regards to that. There are only two things that come to my mind as to why the campus security would come down on the user in question: first, terrorism; second, stalking (i.e. I don't need to go into much reason why it is illegal to take any pictures in locker rooms in gyms.). That being said, both reasons I gave are fairly weak and would be poor reasons to apprehend a person just because he/she was taking pictures of buildings and other miscellany.
All that being said, File:Union County College Police.jpg needs to come down, and now. That is a blatant attack image and is hence deletable under WP:CSD#G10. Moreover, it gives a bad image for established Wikipedians, who, despite our collective "rebellious" nature, should not be stooping this low to launch such attacks outward like that. Moreover again, it is extremely bad taste to be posting such images. I understand the user is frustrated and certainly has the right to complain, and while Wikipedia should not be the sole place for that, we should not be openly attacking other organizations or otherwise be complicit in that; such open attacks should be taken elsewhere on the Internet. –MuZemike 07:17, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- (edit) I just realized the image in question was uploaded to Commons. However, the same deletion rationale applies, and it should still be taken down due to its vindicitive nature. –MuZemike 07:19, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- You're a bit confused. Freedom of panorama is an exception to copyright law which (in the US) permits two-dimensional reproductions of copyrighted architecture (but not of sculptures, posters, etc). Dcoetzee 07:47, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Right, I was just gonna say that. Otherwise, we could all trash whatever cameras we have in urban areas. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 08:39, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- I sleep, wake up and this thread is still going strong. Thank you everybody for your intelligent comments -- it is a highly instructive lesson. You people are sharp and smart and what makes Wikipedia great (my OR); I appreciate the attention because it suggests on some level a kind of support. So, what I'm getting is the attack-cartoon is counter-productive (yes I'm being somewhat childish); if I choose to upload the 17+ pictures of buildings (no people) which are in my camera it will be cool with Wikipedia, right? That is, Wikipedia probably won't delete them. (Although if they're posted perhaps I might get in further trouble with Union County College? -- yes I'm willing perhaps to put up with this). Monday I should call the administration and followup on this. What about drawings of buildings? (see picture to the right) Last, I used to be a local reporter, and my reporter's instinct says that whenever people are exerting effort to block pictures, even asking police to detain people taking pictures, there may be something they're trying to hide. And even last, I think we're all wanting to wind down this thread, right?--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:18, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- None of us speak for Wikipedia, but I don't see any valid grounds for deletion, and really doubt anyone is going to ask for it.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:22, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Not meaning to spam, but here's the section from Common's Freedom of Panorama for the US [56]: Buildings are works subject to copyright in the U.S. according to 17 USC 102(a)(8) since the Architectural Works Copyright Protection Act was passed in 1990. It applies to all buildings that were completed (not begun) after December 1, 1990, or where the plans were published after that date.
However, the U.S. federal copyright law explicitly exempts photographs of such copyrighted buildings from the copyright of the building in 17 USC 120(a). Anyone may take photographs of buildings from public places. This includes such interior public spaces as lobbies, auditoriums, etc. The photographer holds the exclusive copyright to such an image (the architect or owner of the building has no say whatsoever), and may publish the image in any way. 17 USC 120 applies only to architectural works, not to other works of visual art, such as statues or sculptures.
This means that for buildings completed before December 1, 1990, there is complete FoP, without regard to whether the photograph is taken from a public place, because the building is public domain, except for the plans (so one is free to do anything short of reproducing the building with another building, but the style elements such as gargoyles and pillars would not be individually protected). For buildings completed after December 1, 1990, freedom is given only to photograph such a building, and individual style elements (such as gargoyles, and pillars) are protected, and photos are only allowed from public places. - So the questions to ask are: are the buildings completed before Dec 1 1990? If so, you have every right to photograph them regardless of where you are located. If they were completed after that date, you can only take photos from public areas. --MASEM (t) 15:51, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Does "public area" here mean "publicly accessible area" or "not privately owned grounds"? The wording you just cited, where "such interior public spaces as lobbies" are included, would point towards the former, right? In that case, a campus area would obviously also qualify as public. If he could walk into those areas unhindered, it was evidently publicly accessible. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:06, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- That's generally what is meant: if you aren't restricted by any physical or personal means from entering the area, it's considered open to the public, and photos of anything taken from it are completely legal, and thus the only question becomes the copyright issue noted above. --MASEM (t) 17:04, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- I would agree that a campus, an outdoor area, is akin to a lobby, it's a public space that people pass through freely and that also contains areas the inside of which is private. Access can be restricted if necessary, but for most, most of the time, people come and go as they please. In other words, it's not a problem.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:08, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- That's generally what is meant: if you aren't restricted by any physical or personal means from entering the area, it's considered open to the public, and photos of anything taken from it are completely legal, and thus the only question becomes the copyright issue noted above. --MASEM (t) 17:04, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Does "public area" here mean "publicly accessible area" or "not privately owned grounds"? The wording you just cited, where "such interior public spaces as lobbies" are included, would point towards the former, right? In that case, a campus area would obviously also qualify as public. If he could walk into those areas unhindered, it was evidently publicly accessible. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:06, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- I sleep, wake up and this thread is still going strong. Thank you everybody for your intelligent comments -- it is a highly instructive lesson. You people are sharp and smart and what makes Wikipedia great (my OR); I appreciate the attention because it suggests on some level a kind of support. So, what I'm getting is the attack-cartoon is counter-productive (yes I'm being somewhat childish); if I choose to upload the 17+ pictures of buildings (no people) which are in my camera it will be cool with Wikipedia, right? That is, Wikipedia probably won't delete them. (Although if they're posted perhaps I might get in further trouble with Union County College? -- yes I'm willing perhaps to put up with this). Monday I should call the administration and followup on this. What about drawings of buildings? (see picture to the right) Last, I used to be a local reporter, and my reporter's instinct says that whenever people are exerting effort to block pictures, even asking police to detain people taking pictures, there may be something they're trying to hide. And even last, I think we're all wanting to wind down this thread, right?--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:18, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
RM closure requested
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
The move discussion at Talk:Occupation of the Baltic states has gone stale. A heavily involved editor attempted to close debate, but I undid this, as it was a violation of WP:RM/CI. However, I do believe that this discussion has run its course. As such, I kindly request that an admin put this debate properly to rest. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:23, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
And while I am here, I would also like to request that an admin merge the page histories of Talk:Székely and Talk:Székelys, as these histories have become rather messed up as a result of overzealous cut-and-paste moves. Thank you. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:26, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
- And while you are doing this I also request undoing a salted controversial move of Template:Occupation of the Baltic states sidebar, and warn Martintg not to do this again. I believe that he was already warned not to salt controversial moves and deserve a harsher sanction, but I am too busy to search through history of his talk page. (Igny (talk))
This thread has been sitting here for a week now, but it is still somehow languishing in obscurity. I would like to reiterate the requests I made above. The contentious move discussion at Talk: Occupation of the Baltic states has long since fizzled out into no-consensus land. It would be very much appreciated if this were to be resolved with all due haste. It is just taking up space at this point.
Also, the page histories of Talk:Székely and Talk:Székelys have become rather seriously screwed up as a result of disruptive cut-and-paste moves by User:Iaaasi, who is being considered for a community ban below. There is currently a move discussion (proposed by the same user) going on which would risk destroying much of the editing history if it were to be closed without careful examination of page histories. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:05, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- I've closed the RM. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 07:43, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Messy MOS proposal subpage
Could someone sort please out this mess? LeadSongDog come howl! 22:11, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- What mess? Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:05, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Help needed to discuss WWI genocide issue
As part of copy editing an article on alleged Turkish genocide of Armenians in WWI, it occurred to me that the article might be badly named/disambiguated/categorised, which isn't really my field.
Because of Turkish-Armenian sensitivities about this topic, I wonder whether there is a senior editor/admin with some expertise or interest in WWI or genocide who might discuss with me how I best go about not just abandoning this article to obscurity or pseudo-orphan status after the copy edit. Regards Peter S Strempel | Talk 06:06, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- This is not an incident. It was moved here by an administrator who didn't think it should be on the admin noticeboard. What I actually seek is input and advice, not action, resolution, or rule interpretation. So I've placed a adminhelp template on my talk page. Regards Peter S Strempel | Talk 07:51, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Because -
- Where else will I find lots of admins (searching help for contacts is futile)
- Admins sometimes complain about hasty, unilateral actions by editors - something I want to avoid
- Editors are encouraged in many communiques from Wikipedia big-wigs to ask before doing something pre-emptively
- I didn't want to leave behind me a mess for someone else to find and clean up (that might be you, mightn't it?)
- The topic is sensitive enough to warrant input from someone senior and/or au fait with policies that I may have no knowledge or understanding of (sounds like admin, smells like admin, is it admin?)
- The topic is complex enough to deserve the attention of someone with an interest or expertise in doing it right
- I want to know how issues like this are approached by Wikipedia seniors (sounds like admin ...)
- Because -
- I have a question for you: Is administrator input not something I can seek legitimately? If this is the wrong place, delete the entire thread. If you don't want to help, don't, but maybe you can suggest where I can find that help.
- Finally, now attempt to block out for a moment your admin subjectivity and all you know about how things are done here, including the pain-in-the-arse workload you no doubt face with real incidents. Reconsider for a moment everything I have said and done, including not posting this here in the first place, and put yourself in my shoes. What conclusions would you reach about my experience with this request? Your question to me is that I answer for you precisely the questions I want to discuss with a senior Wikipedia contributor (read admins, the people who are supposed to know). Why would I seek that assistance if I already had the answers? Regards Peter S Strempel | Talk 11:32, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- If your editing of the article in question is likely to be contentious, then it is better to outline your proposed edit on the article's talk page and open a discussion. Admins are no more expert in a particular subject matter than any other editor, and in many cases, a non-admin may have better expertise on a particular subject. A relevant Wikiproject may also be a good venue to discuss issues and proposed edits. Mjroots (talk) 12:56, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Sigh. Wince (shoulders slumping in discomfiture). Once more. This is not a dispute, edit war, or fire that needs to be put out. I did not put the request here - that was done by your admin colleague Jayron32, Skomorokh (sorry Jayron32)who moved it from vanilla admin notice board to here. The editing is done. The assistance required now is discussion on what to do with the article next.
I repeat, if this isn't the place for my request, or no one really gives a toss, please just delete the whole thread. What I'm trying to do here is prevent making decisions that might become someone else's headache in future, but without shrugging my shoulders and abandoning an article I know is ill-named or orphaned. Regards Peter S Strempel | Talk 14:12, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
AFD discussion getting out of hand, need an uninvolved admin to hat some nonsense
I've already commented, so I am recusing myself, but could an uninvolved admin please check by Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jacob Barnett, perhaps "{{hat}}" the irrelevent side discussions going on, and also perhaps drop a clue on those participating in them. Its getting a bit distracting... --Jayron32 06:55, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
India vs Pakistan cricket match removal from ITN
Usually for the first offence I wouldn't take something to ANI as I don't generally think its productive and people do make mistakes.
However I'm making an exception in this case due to it affecting the front page and being a gross misreading of consensus. Prodego (talk · contribs) removed this item from ITN with the claim that there was no consensus for posting it. It might have been a little borderline when it was initially posted - although in my view (as nominator) and the posting admin clearly thought the support arguments were strong enough. Additionally after the item was posted there were several further support !votes with good rationales. The discussion thread is here. Therefore the claim that there was no consensus is highly dubious.
The discussion of [58]'s talk page has been unproductive so far, except to that it seems that the admin in question was "supervoting" which is unacceptable.
I'd like the item to be reposted and for the admin in question to understand consensus better in future - in this case it wasn't even borderline. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:32, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Another reason why "Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents" should be renamed to "Community forum". –MuZemike 07:41, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Why? This is a case of a poor admin action. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:42, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- That's unhelpful, MZm. Strange Passerby (talk • cont) 07:43, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Why is it unhelpful? It WAS poor admin action. Admins aren't gods. They can be wrong. HiLo48 (talk) 11:01, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- He wasn't making that point at me ;). -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 11:03, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- I read MZm's comment as being negative (I thought he meant the complaint doesn't belong here and would be better suited to a "community forum"), but it might have been a misreading of it, in which case I apologise to MZm. Strange Passerby (talk • cont) 11:35, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- He wasn't making that point at me ;). -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 11:03, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Why is it unhelpful? It WAS poor admin action. Admins aren't gods. They can be wrong. HiLo48 (talk) 11:01, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- A blatant display of WP:IDONTLIKEIT petulance against consensus by an admin, imo. Strange Passerby (talk • cont) 07:43, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- It should also be pointed out that the admin in question was WP:INVOLVED as they !voted oppose. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:57, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
FFS the final is over in a few hours. What pointless drama. This whole thing was a mess: ITN gets posted after drive-by supports and 68 failed attempts to draft a simple blurb that passed WP:V. Then essentially a WW on the main page (as much as I agree with the substance of what Prodego did). Sometimes it is helpful to draw a line under things rather than escalate conflict mindlessly. Much like India and Pakistan. --Mkativerata (talk) 09:23, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- "Drive by supports", are you serious? Every single support was well argued and they continued after the story was posted. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean there wasn't a consensus to post - and then it should stay on the front page. We're actually trying really hard to make ITN work, and admins coming in and removing items which have a clear and strong consensus to be posted is driving the progress backwards. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 10:27, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- What are you hoping to achieve here? Having the item back up for, what, five hours? Or just drama-mongering? --Mkativerata (talk) 10:31, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- I want the item to go back up and I want to make it clear that the behaviour from this administrator is unacceptable as they violated a clear consensus. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 10:37, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- This isn't the first time someone has removed something from ITN like this either and its extremely annoying each time. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 10:38, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- I'll agree with Mkativerata that the path of least resistance here, with the final going on right now is to wait for the conclusion of the final and to post that, assuming there's a suitable update (which is another reason to focus on that). That said, I'd disagree that the India-Pakistan cricket match was posted on the basis of 'drive-by supports'. Still, I suggest we take a pragmatic way forward.--Johnsemlak (talk) 10:45, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see why reverting a poor admin action - even if only for a limited time - would be a path of high resistance. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 11:07, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- I'll agree with Mkativerata that the path of least resistance here, with the final going on right now is to wait for the conclusion of the final and to post that, assuming there's a suitable update (which is another reason to focus on that). That said, I'd disagree that the India-Pakistan cricket match was posted on the basis of 'drive-by supports'. Still, I suggest we take a pragmatic way forward.--Johnsemlak (talk) 10:45, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- What are you hoping to achieve here? Having the item back up for, what, five hours? Or just drama-mongering? --Mkativerata (talk) 10:31, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Just pointing out that we shouldn't have two hooks on the cricket world cup at the same time and that the final should, I think, take precedence. Cenarium (talk) 11:09, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- That seems reasonable - so when the final goes up then this can come down, however the match apparently isn't over, and the update hasn't been made. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 11:10, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Just a thought - how do those who don't consider this a significant story feel about yet another random baseball player image being used as today's 'featured picture'? What does this tell us about Wikipedia's attempt at world-wide coverage? AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:30, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
63.17.39.245 mentioning the religion of my birth with (seeming?) derision
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jacob Barnett (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Hi. I am engaged in a vigorous editing dispute with another editor (that happens to be a wp:SPA) who seems nice enough, generally, but s/he is just now beginning to edge into something akin to a personal attack referencing my ethno-religious identity. (See diff.) I don't think the offense is too far over the line but am concerned that it may escalate to that and wouldn't want this editor to suffer those kind of consequences. Can a kind, passing-by administrator send him a politely worded caution, on my behalf? I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 11:16, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- I have NO IDEA what your religion or ethnicity is. You have deliberately fabricated quotes by manipulating a source. I checked your history and saw that your interests included Glenn beck and Mormonism, both of which are interests that obviously might motivate a deliberate fabrication in an area related to Big Bang theory. I wildly guessed that your motivation was based on some allegiance trumping your ability to NOT FABRICATE SOURCES OR LIE. If you are offended, I suggest in the future you do not discredit your "ethno-religious identity" by fabricating sources.63.17.88.27 (talk) 11:38, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- The IP alleges that I fabricated a source. In fact, I provided a transcript for a statement in a talkpage comment from a YouTube video. I didn't say where the transcript came from however, its ultimate source was apparently a newspaper article. (I got it from a blog essay.) In any case, in my provided transcript for the statement, I changed a comma, which I believed to be in error, to a period, which I believed to be the correct transcription, for meaning and clarity.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 11:44, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Just a comment - whatever other articles an editor edits isn't important. It's borderline Ad Hominem. Exceptions are occasional, for example single purpose accounts should be evaluated a bit more carefully. Zakhalesh (talk) 11:40, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- A poster's transcript of a YouTube video is not a "source" when THE VERY SAME VIDEO is transcribed in AN ACTUAL SOURCE," i.e., a newspaper article -- which, incidentally, was one of only THREE SOURCES ALTOGETHER for the article in question.
Here is what the OP posted, supposedly quoting the source: "The other day I calculated, they have this period where they suppose the hydrogen and helium were created, and I don't care about the hydrogen and helium, but I thought, wouldn't there have to be some sort of carbon? Otherwise, the carbon would have to be coming out of the stars and hence the Earth. Made mostly of carbon, we wouldn't be here."
Here is what the actual source published: "The other day I calculated, they have this period where they suppose the hydrogen and helium were created, and, um, I don't care about the hydrogen and helium, but I thought, wouldn't there have to be some sort of carbon? Otherwise, the carbon would have to be coming out of the stars and hence the Earth, made mostly of carbon, we wouldn't be here."
Do you see the ESSENTIAL difference? The discussion concerned the ignorance of earth's chemical composition -- earth is NOT "made mostly of carbon." The misquotation was clearly a deliberate attempt to cover up the ignorance of the claim by suggesting that "we" (people, not earth) are "made mostly of carbon." There was an agenda at work in this deliberate misquotation, and I attempted to identify its source. But how can I be charged with "a personal attack referencing [someone's] ethno-religious identity" when I had NO IDEA what it was? The OP should be more careful in his her fabrications of sources, not more vigilant in his/her indignation about non-existent insults. 63.17.88.27 (talk) 11:58, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Hi 63.17.88.27. This forum here is NOT for carrying on the argument from the AFD. This discussion is about your making personal attacks on another editor. I have just been over there to check and I agree that your attacks are unacceptable. You should discuss the topic itself, and the actual content of people's arguments - you should NOT argue by slagging people off personally. If you continue to post personal attacks, you will be blocked from editing -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:05, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- (ec x2)The above is a content dispute, which is not what this page is for. The specific comment by the OP is that you stated (not inferred, suggested, theorized) that they were of a particular religious and political background, and then inferred/suggested/promoted that their views were then inherently inferior. That is not how this project works. Dispute of content is fine, provided that the appropriate resolution solutions are used, but comments upon other editors are not. Please do not do it again. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:13, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
The personal attacks seem to suggest that the user might be a sockpuppet (not necessarily intentional) of User:Negi(afk) who was blocked for making personal attacks on the AfD. I've opened an SPI investigation (see there for links to previous ANI discussion related to personal attacks made on this AfD). —Tom Morris (talk) 12:15, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Just to note, Negi(afk)'s block expired this morning and suddenly personal attacks start appearing in the AfD. That's why I opened the SPI investigation: if I'm right about the sockpuppetry, he's not evading his block (since it has expired), but moving from one account to an IP in order to not get speedily blocked for carrying on the same behaviour. —Tom Morris (talk) 12:17, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Achmednut321
- Achmednut321 (talk · contribs)
The editor continues to try and add unsourced information to the Mad episode list. I have asked the editor to stop, but they continue. Even going as far to removed a reliable source and replacing it with an unreliable one. The editor has been reported on this once before. Sarujo (talk) 14:25, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Islamic POV-pusher
Zubair71 (talk · contribs) has been pushing an Islamic POV into the Qur'an article, taking stuff such as "Muslims regard the Qur’an as the main miracle of Muhammad, as proof of his prophethood," and turning it into "The Qur’an is the main miracle of Muhammad, as proof of his prophethood." He's also been censoring well sourced information (a work cited in the Cambridge companion to the Qur'an) just because it doesn't support his POV. He accuses me of vandalism and POV pushing for undoing his POV pushing. I'm actually trying to work with the only other editor involved so far on making the article neutral. I've had it with Zubair71. He's been blocked for POV pushing before, and clearly doesn't get that this isn't a website to push any worldview. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:25, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
User:Ian.thomson has already done five reverts in one article "Quran" during the last 24 hours (in 1 day). It is only he, who has reverted my useful NPOV edits. None of the other editors of this very important article has shown disagreement on my edits. Infact, it is User:Ian.thomson who is just reverting any useful edits to push his personal or Christians' POV. I already has mentioned all details on the discussion page of the article. Zubair71 (talk) 15:33, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- I disagree. Ian.thomson's edits are correct. WP tries not to take a stance on the truth value of particular religious statements. Suggesting that the queeran is proof of anything is a misunderstanding of the WP reliable source guidelines (mainly because the thing is an obvious fabrication, at the level of the Mormon bible). Sources that assert their own reliability are not reliable. Negi(afk) (talk) 15:37, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- We should just ban all religious people from editing this website, ya know what I mean? Negi(afk) (talk) 15:37, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- To Zubair71: "useful NPOV edits"? How is treating Islamic beliefs as universal facts not POV? As for your accusations of me pushing a POV, I have a log showing that I push against Christian POVs, and you have yet to show any examples of me pushing a Christian POV. The other editors have been sitting with their thumbs up their asses, and they haven't been disagreeing with me reverting you. When you reported me for edit warring, the admin didn't block me and said you were becoming a disruptive editor. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:43, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- To Negi, I'm religious, I think it's more that any editor who can't allow others to hold to a worldview different from than their own that should be blocked. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:43, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- I've just had a look over the recent changes to that page, and yes, Zubair71, you are trying to push Islam as being correct - changing it to so that Islamic beliefs are presented as fact, and adding extra unsourced comments about how good the Qu'ran is. So to you, stop it, or you'll be on the receiving end of a block for POV-pushing. And to both of you, stop the edit-warring - edit-warring is never acceptable, even if you're right, and 3RR can only be set aside for things vandalism and blatant BLP violations, not for POV-based content disputes. The best thing to do in such cases is revert a couple of times at most, and talk to the other editor - on the article Talk page or their own Talk page. Then if that doesn't work, bring it here. The article is being closely watched now, so we'll stop any further disruption. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:51, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- And to Negi, suggesting that all religious people be banned is just as wrong as condemning all Muslims because of the actions of Al-Quaeda, or all Christians because of the actions of the crusaders (or Fred Phelps!). -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:03, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- I guess Negi was kidding. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 17:14, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- And to Negi, suggesting that all religious people be banned is just as wrong as condemning all Muslims because of the actions of Al-Quaeda, or all Christians because of the actions of the crusaders (or Fred Phelps!). -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:03, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- I've just had a look over the recent changes to that page, and yes, Zubair71, you are trying to push Islam as being correct - changing it to so that Islamic beliefs are presented as fact, and adding extra unsourced comments about how good the Qu'ran is. So to you, stop it, or you'll be on the receiving end of a block for POV-pushing. And to both of you, stop the edit-warring - edit-warring is never acceptable, even if you're right, and 3RR can only be set aside for things vandalism and blatant BLP violations, not for POV-based content disputes. The best thing to do in such cases is revert a couple of times at most, and talk to the other editor - on the article Talk page or their own Talk page. Then if that doesn't work, bring it here. The article is being closely watched now, so we'll stop any further disruption. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:51, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
I actually don't understand who one can have a NPOV article about religion at all. If you assign the proper weight to all sources, then that would lead to a Wiki-article one any religion having to say that this religion is nonsense. So, at least to some degree, all Wiki-articles on religious subjects violate the NPOV rule. Count Iblis (talk) 15:56, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Not at all, no - it is not the aim of Wikipedia to present any judgment at all on whether a religion is true or false. We should present sourced information on the documented histories of religious movements, and present sourced descriptions of what they believe, without trying to deduce whether or not they are correct -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:59, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Z71 is now accussing IT of vandalism [59] so could do with a stern word from an admin about civility William M. Connolley (talk) 16:08, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Done -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:33, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- And he has immediately blanked it, but he's had the warning and has effectively acknowledged that he's read it -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:36, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Ah, actually, I see he had already had a number of warnings and had blanked them - no need for further action at the moment, I don't think -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:41, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- And he has immediately blanked it, but he's had the warning and has effectively acknowledged that he's read it -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:36, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
This edit summary is, I would say, indicative of a significant conflict between this editor's editing outlook and the interests of the 'pedia. S.G.(GH) ping! 16:50, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- Or perhaps it's just a bit of frustration after being labeled an "Islamic POV-pusher" - it's easy for a disagreement like this to become quickly polarized, and we need to make allowances for that -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:09, 2 April 2011 (UTC)