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We had [[User:Winged Blades of Godric|Winged Blades of Godric]] and [[User:Cyberpower678|Cyberpower678]] declaring themselves last month as volunteers to do the joint closure on [[Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/RfC: Wikimedia referrer policy]]. However, the RfC discussion was relisted for an extended time. Its proposer [[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]], who can explain more than I, has [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Guy_Macon&oldid=791012183#Third_closer_necessary_for_referrer_info_RfC.3F concerns about WMF staff] trying to influence the WMF into reconsidering the abidance to the consensus. Therefore, I believe that more volunteers, including uninvolved but experienced administrators, are needed to do the joint closures, especially to "{{tq|address the question of whether Wikipedia or the WMF has the final authority on what referrer information we send}}," quote from Guy Macon. Any more volunteers, like a third and/or fourth closer? Thanks. --[[User:George Ho|George Ho]] ([[User talk:George Ho|talk]]) 19:01, 17 July 2017 (UTC) |
We had [[User:Winged Blades of Godric|Winged Blades of Godric]] and [[User:Cyberpower678|Cyberpower678]] declaring themselves last month as volunteers to do the joint closure on [[Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/RfC: Wikimedia referrer policy]]. However, the RfC discussion was relisted for an extended time. Its proposer [[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]], who can explain more than I, has [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Guy_Macon&oldid=791012183#Third_closer_necessary_for_referrer_info_RfC.3F concerns about WMF staff] trying to influence the WMF into reconsidering the abidance to the consensus. Therefore, I believe that more volunteers, including uninvolved but experienced administrators, are needed to do the joint closures, especially to "{{tq|address the question of whether Wikipedia or the WMF has the final authority on what referrer information we send}}," quote from Guy Macon. Any more volunteers, like a third and/or fourth closer? Thanks. --[[User:George Ho|George Ho]] ([[User talk:George Ho|talk]]) 19:01, 17 July 2017 (UTC) |
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: I find this in bad faith. Everybody and their brother knows that a strong majority of editors here support having no referrer information; canvassing to have "four closer" admins is a blatant attempt to over-emphasize the view of the English Wikipedia editors on a topic that they may not have a binding opinion on. To use excessively-legal terminology, consensus here can't over-turn jurisdictional issues. [[User:Power~enwiki|Power~enwiki]] ([[User talk:Power~enwiki|talk]]) 08:00, 18 July 2017 (UTC) |
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== [[User:Msaiflodin]] == |
== [[User:Msaiflodin]] == |
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Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1156#Boomerang_topic_ban_proposal_for_User:Hcsrctu
(Initiated 22 days ago on 9 May 2024) Ratnahastin (talk) 03:35, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
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Requests for comment
RfC: Change INFOBOXUSE to recommend the use of infoboxes?
(Initiated 77 days ago on 15 March 2024) Ready to be closed. Charcoal feather (talk) 17:02, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
new closer needed |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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WP:RSN#RFC:_The_Anti-Defamation_League
(Initiated 55 days ago on 7 April 2024) Three related RFCs in a trench coat. I personally think the consensus is fairly clear here, but it should definitely be an admin close. Loki (talk) 14:07, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- FYI this discussion can now be found in Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard
/Archive 439. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:22, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Enforcing ECR for article creators
(Initiated 54 days ago on 8 April 2024) Discussion appears to have died down almost a month after this RfC opened. Would like to see a formal close of Q1 and Q2. Awesome Aasim 00:11, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
Talk:Brothers of Italy#RfC on neo-fascism in info box 3 (Effectively option 4 from RfC2)
(Initiated 53 days ago on 8 April 2024) Clear consensus for change but not what to change to. I've handled this RfC very badly imo. User:Alexanderkowal — Preceding undated comment added 11:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: The RfC tag was removed the same day it was started. This should be closed as a discussion, not an RfC. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:03, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
Talk:Mukokuseki#RfC on using the wording "stereotypically Western characteristics" in the lead
(Initiated 51 days ago on 11 April 2024) ☆SuperNinja2☆ TALK! 09:41, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- See Talk:Mukokuseki#Close Plz 5/21/2024 Orchastrattor (talk) 20:34, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
Talk:SpaceX Starship flight tests#RfC: Should we list IFT mission outcome alongside launch outcome?
(Initiated 41 days ago on 20 April 2024) An involved user has repeatedly attempted to close this after adding their arguments. It's a divisive topic and a close would stop back and forth edits. DerVolkssport11 (talk) 12:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- To clarify, the RfC was closed in this dif, and an IP editor unclosed it, with this statement: "involved and pushing"
- In just over an hour, the above editor voiced support for the proposal.
- I reclosed it, and the same IP opened the RfC again, with this message: "pushing by involved users so ask for more comments".
- I reclosed once more. And then the editor who opened this requests opened it. To avoid violated WP:3RR, I have not reclosed it, instead messaging the original closer to notify them.
- The proposal itself was an edit request that I rejected. The IP who made the request reopened the request, which I rejected once more. They then proceeded to open an RfC. Redacted II (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
Talk:Hunter Biden#RfC: Washington Post report concerning emails
(Initiated 37 days ago on 24 April 2024) There's been no comments in 5 days. TarnishedPathtalk 03:20, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
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WP:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 May 11#Colonia Ulpia Traiana
(Initiated 63 days ago on 30 March 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:35, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 24#Phone computer
(Initiated 60 days ago on 2 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:35, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 April 21#Category:Crafts deities
(Initiated 58 days ago on 3 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 April 23#Category:Mohave tribe
(Initiated 55 days ago on 6 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 April 27#Category:Unrecognized tribes in the United States
(Initiated 55 days ago on 7 April 2024) This one has been mentioned in a news outlet, so a close would ideally make sense to the outside world. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 13:56, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 April 27#Category:Indian massacres
(Initiated 54 days ago on 7 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 April 23#Category:Dos Santos family (Angolan business family)
(Initiated 54 days ago on 8 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 April 27#Category:Volodimerovichi family
(Initiated 53 days ago on 8 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 May 13#Genie (feral child and etc.
(Initiated 53 days ago on 9 April 2024) mwwv converse∫edits 18:02, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 May 6#Larissa Hodge
(Initiated 53 days ago on 9 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:35, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 28#Freeze, everybody clap your hands!
(Initiated 52 days ago on 9 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:35, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 April 29#Category:Muppet performers
(Initiated 49 days ago on 12 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 April 30#Category:First Nations drawing artists
(Initiated 48 days ago on 13 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 30#Jackahuahua
(Initiated 47 days ago on 14 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:35, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 April 30#Category:Neo-Latin writers
(Initiated 46 days ago on 15 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 May 1#Hornless unicorn
(Initiated 44 days ago on 17 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:35, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 May 13#TotalMedia Theatre
(Initiated 43 days ago on 18 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:35, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 May 19#Dougie (disambiguation)
(Initiated 43 days ago on 18 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:35, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 May 13#Category:Pocatello Army Air Base Bombardiers football seasons
(Initiated 37 days ago on 24 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 May 13#Sucking peepee
(Initiated 37 days ago on 24 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:35, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 May 6#Supplemental Result
(Initiated 37 days ago on 25 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:35, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 May 4#Category:Fictional West Asian people
(Initiated 35 days ago on 26 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 May 4#Natural history
(Initiated 35 days ago on 26 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 May 17#D-bar operator
(Initiated 35 days ago on 26 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:35, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 May 13#Category:Fictional animals by taxon
(Initiated 35 days ago on 27 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 May 13#Roman Catholic bishops in Macau
(Initiated 33 days ago on 28 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 30#Frances and Richard Lockridge
(Initiated 31 days ago on 30 April 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:35, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 May 17#Desi (Tibetan)
(Initiated 29 days ago on 2 May 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:35, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Stress marks in East Slavic words
(Initiated 26 days ago on 6 May 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 17:30, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:Amina Hassan Sheikh
(Initiated 25 days ago on 6 May 2024) If the consensus is to do the selective histmerge I'm willing to use my own admin tools to push the button and do it. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:07, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 May 15#Category:American people of Arab descent
(Initiated 24 days ago on 7 May 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- Closed by editor HouseBlaster. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 23:45, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 May 17#Category:Extinct Indigenous peoples of Australia
(Initiated 22 days ago on 9 May 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 May 15#Category:American people of Arab descent
(Initiated 16 days ago on 15 May 2024) * Pppery * it has begun... 22:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- Closed by editor HouseBlaster. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 23:34, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Place new discussions concerning XfDs above this line using a level 3 heading
Other types of closing requests
Talk:Tamil_genocide#Merge_proposal
(Initiated 73 days ago on 19 March 2024) Merge discussion which has been occurring since 19 March 2024. Discussion has well and truly slowed. TarnishedPathtalk 14:34, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Talk:Rupert_Sheldrake#Talkpage_"This_article_has_been_mentioned_by_a_media_organization:"_BRD
(Initiated 45 days ago on 16 April 2024) - Discussion on a talkpage template, Last comment 6 days ago, 10 comments, 4 people in discussion. Not unanimous, but perhaps there is consensus-ish or strength of argument-ish closure possible. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:24, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- It doesn't seem to me that there is a consensus here to do anything, with most editors couching their statements as why it might (or might not) be done rather than why it should (or should not). I will opine that I'm not aware there's any precedent to exclude {{Press}} for any reason and that it would be very unusual, but I don't think that's good enough reason to just overrule Hipal. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 01:01, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Talk:Press_Your_Luck_scandal#Separate_articles
(Initiated 29 days ago on 2 May 2024) Please review this discussion. --Jax 0677 (talk) 01:42, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
Talk:Republican_Party_(United_States)#Poll:_Should_the_article_include_a_political_position_for_the_Republican_Party_in_the_infobox?
(Initiated 17 days ago on 14 May 2024) The topic of this poll is contentious and has been the subject of dozens of talk page discussions over the past years, so I am requesting an uninvolved editor to close this discussion. Cortador (talk) 20:28, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
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- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- There is consensus to move forward with Mathglot's proposal (see #Proposal), which will cause a mass deletion of the pages on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review, with the option to save certain pages from deletion within a two-week window. As part of the proposal, there is also a consensus to amend WP:X2 in the manner S Marshall specifies in this edit.Opposition to this change revolved around the argument that the articles which would qualify for mass deletion should be improved instead of deleted. Elinruby proposed alternatively that we should focus on recruiting editors fluent in foreign languages, Mathglot initially proposed to mass-draftify the articles instead of deleting, and Sam Walton argued that the articles contained valid content that didn't deserve mass deletion.A majority of other editors, however, argued that many of the articles involved are poorly sourced BLPs that have the potential to harm their subjects if left unimproved. Given the large number of articles and low number of editors involved, it will likely be months before these articles are improved. Additionally, a user who is not fluent in both of the languages involved in a translation will not be able to adequately evaluate the validity of the machine-translated content; the article may appear unproblematic to such a user, but the content translation tool could have subtly altered the meaning of statements to something false.In short, the consensus is that in the long run, the encyclopedia would be better off if these articles were mass deleted. Respectfully, Mz7 (talk) 23:22, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
- Addendum: The process for working out how to cause the mass deletion has been established. To mark an article for retention, please
strike it out. To unambiguously identify an article for deletion, include the word "kill" in the same line as the article. The articles will be deleted on or after June 6, 2017. Thank you for your patience. Tazerdadog (talk) 23:16, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
- Addendum: The process for working out how to cause the mass deletion has been established. To mark an article for retention, please
Hi, Wikipedians. I wanted to give you an update on WP:AN/CXT. Since that discussion was closed about eight months or so ago, we've cleared out about 10% of the articles involved, which were the easiest 10%. The work is now slowing down as more careful examination is needed and as the number of editors drops off, and I'm sad to report that we're still finding BLP issues. The temporary speedy deletion criterion, X2, is of little use because it's phrased as a special case of WP:SNOW and I'm not being allowed to improve it. The "it's notable/AFD is not for cleanup" culture at AFD is making it hard for me to remove these articles as well, so I'm spending hours trying to get rid of material generated by a script in seconds. I'm sorry but I'm discouraged and I give up. Recommend the remainder are nuked to protect the encyclopaedia.—S Marshall T/C 23:15, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
- For more context on this issue, please see Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#X2 revision. Cheers, Tazerdadog (talk) 23:33, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
- Update: This link is now located at .../Archive_61#X2 revision. Mathglot (talk) 01:10, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for your work on this, S Marshall, and I don't fault you for your choice. - Dank (push to talk) 19:49, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- Isn't there some way to use the sortware to delete all of these in bulk, if only as a one-time thing? Seems like a huge waste of time if it's being done manually by hand. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 00:07, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
- Easily doable as a batch-deletion. I could have it wrapped up in 15 minutes. Unfortunately community consensus did not lean towards approving that option. In fact, most CXT creations which have been reviewed needed cleanup but turned out to be acceptable articles. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 21:00, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
I would support a nuke, a mass draftification, or some loosening of X2. The current situation is not really tenable due to the density of BLP violations. However, ultimately, the broader community needs to discuss what the appropriate action is under the assumption that we are not going to get much more volunteer time to manually check these articles. Tazerdadog (talk) 23:54, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
- No, the broader community doesn't need to discuss that. It's completely needless and the community has had a huge discussion already. All that needs to happen is for WT:CSD to let me make one bold edit to a CSD that was badly-worded from the get-go, and we'll all be back on track. That's it. The only problem we have is that there are so many editors who want to tell me how to do it, and so few editors willing to get off their butts and do it.—S Marshall T/C 19:34, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
- Restored from archive, as it's unhelpful for this to remain unresolved.—S Marshall T/C 17:30, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support systematic nuke/ revision of X2 to enable this mess to be cleared up. It's not fair that @S Marshall: is being prevented from improving the encyclopedia like this. Amisom (talk) 15:21, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support @S Marshall:'s revision or a nuke from orbit. I wasn't active when this situation was being discussed originally, but having now read over the discourse on the matter, it is clear that our current approach isn't working. No one else is stepping up to help S Marshall do this absurd amount of reviewing, leaving us stuck with thousands of machine-translated BLP violations. It's all well and good to say that AfD isn't cleanup and deletion solves nothing and we should let articles flower patiently into beautiful gardens, but if no one's pulling the weeds and watering the sprouts, the garden isn't a garden, it's a weed-riddled disaster. Give the gardener a weed whacker already. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 09:17, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support the bold edit required to X2; it's true, of course, that AfD is not clean up- but neither should it be a barrier to clean up. In any case, moving a backlog from one place to another is hardly helpful. — O Fortuna! Imperatrix mundi. 09:39, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Question @Elinruby and Yngvadottir: As users who (from a quick glance) seem to have been active looking through these articles, do you think the quality is on average worse than a typical random encyclopedia article, and if so, bad enough that speedy deletion would be preferable to allowing them to be improved over time as with any other article? I don't mean to imply that this is necessarily the case, but I think it should be the bar for concluding whether mass speedy deletion is the correct answer. Sam Walton (talk) 11:22, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- (I wish I'd seen this earlier; thanks for the ping. I feel I have totally let down S Marshall; I just couldn't stand it any more.) On the whole ... yes. Support deletion of those remaining that have not been marked as ok/fixed. As I tried to explain in the initial discussion, the basic premise here is incorrect: as it states somewhere at Pages needing translation into English, a machine translation is worse than no article. It will almost always be either almost impossible to read, incorrect (for example, mistranslating names as ordinary nouns, or omitting negatives ...) or both. Some of these translations have been ok; many have been woefully incomplete (just the start of the lede), and they all require extremely careful checking. Yes, what lies in wait may include BLP violations. I sympathize with the article creators, and I am usually an inclusionist; I put hours of work into checking and improving some of these, and I'm not the only one. But please, enough. We'd wind up with decent articles faster if these were deleted, and the majority that are bad do a disservice to their topics. Yngvadottir (talk) 12:52, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- You haven't let me down. You've given me a truckload of support with this.—S Marshall T/C 13:47, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Still oppose mass deletion -- @Sam Walton: What she said: Thank you the ping; this discussion was seeming a bit reiterative and I had mentally checked out. Like @Yngvadottir: I have put considerable effort into some of these articles. In fact, two or three of them are my own translations, which I would not have attempted without the translation tool, btw. Some are from my translations on French law, and I think 1) they cover important and previously missing topics and 2) they are high-quality technical translations. In most cases they speak for themselves. A couple are not perfect, reflecting the state of the French article, yes, and need work. But while these articles -- I am speaking here specifically of my own translations that appear on this list -- may be imperfect they are still reasonable stubs that can be built upon, and they also support more important articles by helping to prevent redlinks in some of the top-level articles on French law and also the French colonial legacy in Rwanda and the Congos etc. See Biens mal acquis for example. That was painful but I am proud of that translation. I have also encountered other people's translations on that list that made me proud of Wikipedia; the one on a cryptology algorithm for example comes to mind, or Essai sur les mœurs et l'esprit des nations. I am an inclusionist, I have to admit, and yes yes, great wrongs and all, but I do think it is important that (for example) articles on Congolese history mention that there have been civil wars (beyond "unrest", and no, I am not kidding). The worst BLP problems I am aware of are in the articles on Dilma Rousseff and I don't believe they are on this list or were created with the tool. Some of the worst PNT pages I have seen predate the translation tool, for instance Notre-Dame de la Garde, which took me years to finish, and Annees folles which is as we speak an incredible mess requiring research in addition to copy-editing and translation. Yngvadottir is correct in saying that inappropriately translated proper nouns is a frequent problem. I recall a Hubert de Garde de Vins who became "wine", and yes, this did reduce the sentence to gibberish. It's annoying enough to make me wanna regex. But. Not mass deletion. I suggest case-by-case intervention in the case of egregious problems with particular users. It's not as though more that a very few users even try to translate. Or perhaps we should revise the criteria for translation user privileges. But even there -- one of the people tagged as delete on sight has created a number of skeleton articles about Quebec. These articles should be be fleshed out not deleted; we should have articles about Quebec. Some of the authors are unquestionably notable, the equivalent in my small culture of Simone de Beauvoir or Colette or Andre Gide. It seems to me that an article that says: this author was born, drank coffee, won the Governor-General's award and wrote these books, is better than having nothing at all. The placeholder takes the topic from unknown unknown to known unknown, or little-known in this context, I guess. We do know a little more about the folk dances of Honduras because there is a very bad article, for which I have done what I could. There are many different problems with the articles on this list. Someone has created multiple articles about, apparently every madrassa in central Tunis. Who am I? Some of the articles I have rescued at PNT were about the medieval wines of Provence, which might seem equally trivial to some. Some of the important but very flawed articles I have noted maybe should not be in the article mainspace -- I am thinking of the ones about the Virgin of Guadeloupe, pretty much everything flagged Mexican historical documents, the Spanish procession of the flowers, etc)--but an interested Spanish speaker could build these out. These topics are unquestionably notable. We should have an article about the Virgin of Guadeloupe, really, people, we should. My suggestion would be recruiting. We desperately need a Portuguese speaker and additional help with Spanish. Some of the unreferenced BLPs sitting around appear to be very fine even though they are unreferenced, and may in fact veer into fluff. But they don't approach liability for libel if that's the concern. I avoid them, personally, because I have in the past deciphered Abidjan l33t about a beloved soccer player, only to be told that we don't as a matter of policy consider these leagues notable. Fine then, they should not be on the PNT to-do list. I'd love to see the translation workflow improved but we should be encouraging the people expanding our horizons is what I think. I am sorry for the very long answer but I appear to be a voice wailing in the desert on this topic and I have now said pretty much the above many times now. Nobody seems to care so oh well, it's not like I don't have other work I can do on the history of the Congo and figuring out what Dilma Rousseff had to say about her impeachment. Reliable sources say she was railroaded (NPR for one) and that is not included in the article at all right now. The articles on Congolese history airily write off genocide and slaughter as "some unrest". In a world where these things are true I really don't care whether on not we find a reference for that Eurovision winner. Someone who cares can do that and I think ethnocentrism is a bigger issue on Wikipedia that these translation attempts. Move the ones that don't meet a minimum standard to some draft space or something. Educate the people who are creating this articles instead of shaking your finger at them. The article creation process is daunting enough and I myself have had to explain to new page patrollers that this punk band is in fact seminal whether you have heard of them or not and whether or not they sing in a language that you can understand. But I have been here enough to do that and I assure you, most people will not. Wikipedia wants to know why its editors grow fewer cough cough wikipedia, lookee here. I will shortly wikilink some of the examples I mention above for easier show-and-tell, for the benefit of anyone who has read this far. Thanks. Elinruby (talk) 20:38, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support removal of these attempted articles (especially to avoid BLP problems laying around). Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:00, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support [1] I'd say "do a disservice to their topics" is a mild way of putting it. --NeilN talk to me 14:08, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose blanket deletion. Having just checked a bunch of the remaining articles I found plenty of perfectly reasonable, non-BLP articles here, and any bad articles I did find were certainly not in greater number than you would find by hitting Random Article, nor were they particularly awful; the worst offenses I found were poor but understandable English. There's a lot of valid content here, especially on non-English topics which we need to do a better job of writing about. FWIW I'll happily put some time into going through this list. Sam Walton (talk) 14:12, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Please take a look at the 20 articles I just reviewed here; none had any issues greater than needing a quick copyedit. Sam Walton (talk) 14:38, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Samwalton9: Thanks. It's been a long, hard slog. I appreciate it if any of these can be saved. However, did you check for accuracy? It's possible for a machine translation to be misleadingly wrong. And the miserable translation tool the WMF provides usually doesn't even attempt filmographies: look at that specific section of Asier Etxeandia. This is not acceptable in a BLP. Somebody who reads the original language (Spanish? Catalan?) needs to go through that article sentence by sentence and film by film. Unfortunately it's not a matter of notability (that's almost always attested to by the original article), it's a matter of whether we have time to save this article. Yngvadottir (talk) 15:27, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- That names of works likely don't get automatically translated properly is a good point that I hadn't considered, thanks for pointing that out. If that's one of the primary issues then I'd favour a semi-automated removal of "filmography" or similar sections, if possible. It just seems that there's a lot of perfectly good content in here. Sam Walton (talk) 15:47, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- I looked at the first one you listed, it is a mass of non-BLP compliant (non-neutral, no-inline source) material. Letting stuff like that hang around is not just bad for that BLP but as an example for other BLPs to be created and remain non-compliant. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:08, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Sam Walton, you didn't answer Yngvadottir's question. Can you speak the source languages? Remember that because of the defective way that software feature was implemented, you cannot assume that the translator speaks English and in many cases they obviously couldn't. (In practice the source language matters a lot because the software accuracy varies by the language pair. Indo-European languages are often but not always okay, and Spanish-English translations have particularly high accuracy, approaching 80%. Japanese-English, for example, has much, much lower accuracy.) So the correctness of the translation must be, and can only be, checked by someone with dual fluency in the source language and English.
In the real world you can establish some rules-of-thumb. For example, you can quite safely assume that everything translated by Rosiestep is appropriate and can be retained. The editorial skills of the different translators varied very widely.
All in all the best solution is for a human who's fluent in the source language and English to look at each of these articles and form an intelligent judgment. The thing that's preventing this solution is that, having looked at the content and formed the judgment, I can't then remove a defective article, because the defective wording in WP:CSD#X2 encourage sysops to decline the deletion unless it's a WP:SNOW case... so I've got to start a full AfD. Every. Single. Time. The effort for me to clean up is out of all proportion to the effort editors put into creating the damn things with a script.
If you don't want the articles nuked (and that's a reasonable position), then please support the X2 revision I have proposed.—S Marshall T/C 17:37, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Sam Walton, you didn't answer Yngvadottir's question. Can you speak the source languages? Remember that because of the defective way that software feature was implemented, you cannot assume that the translator speaks English and in many cases they obviously couldn't. (In practice the source language matters a lot because the software accuracy varies by the language pair. Indo-European languages are often but not always okay, and Spanish-English translations have particularly high accuracy, approaching 80%. Japanese-English, for example, has much, much lower accuracy.) So the correctness of the translation must be, and can only be, checked by someone with dual fluency in the source language and English.
- I looked at the first one you listed, it is a mass of non-BLP compliant (non-neutral, no-inline source) material. Letting stuff like that hang around is not just bad for that BLP but as an example for other BLPs to be created and remain non-compliant. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:08, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- That names of works likely don't get automatically translated properly is a good point that I hadn't considered, thanks for pointing that out. If that's one of the primary issues then I'd favour a semi-automated removal of "filmography" or similar sections, if possible. It just seems that there's a lot of perfectly good content in here. Sam Walton (talk) 15:47, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Samwalton9: Thanks. It's been a long, hard slog. I appreciate it if any of these can be saved. However, did you check for accuracy? It's possible for a machine translation to be misleadingly wrong. And the miserable translation tool the WMF provides usually doesn't even attempt filmographies: look at that specific section of Asier Etxeandia. This is not acceptable in a BLP. Somebody who reads the original language (Spanish? Catalan?) needs to go through that article sentence by sentence and film by film. Unfortunately it's not a matter of notability (that's almost always attested to by the original article), it's a matter of whether we have time to save this article. Yngvadottir (talk) 15:27, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Please take a look at the 20 articles I just reviewed here; none had any issues greater than needing a quick copyedit. Sam Walton (talk) 14:38, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- When you say "the first one you listed" are you talking about Tomokazu Matsuyama? Yes, if so. it is indeed an unreferenced BLP but... I suspect five minutes of quality time with Google would take it out of that category, and it's essentially a resume, something like the placeholder articles I mentioned above. I think that perhaps we are better off knowing that this Japanese contemporary artist exists. Why not do a wikiproject to improve these like the one we just had on Africa top-level articles? It does seem to me that you could use a break from this wikitask and a little gamification might well get er done. I share your sentiment that in some ways we have our fingers in the dyke here, but the dyke does serve a purpose I think...In short I respectfully disagree with the current approach to these articles. Elinruby (talk) 21:05, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
Break
- @Alanscottwalker: I found a reference for his influences in less time than it took to add the ref code....Elinruby (talk) 19:43, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
- Elinruby: Did you mean to ping me back here, many days after I commented, to tell me you found a pretty crappy commercial source? When I looked at it awhile ago, the article was filled with non-npov/non-referenced/BLP violating text. It is, thus, no comfort that since I commented, awhile ago, someone has according to their edit 'removed the worst of the puffery', and you added that crappy commercial source - its still not policy compliant (even if it is marginally better, since I flagged it) Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:03, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Alanscottwalker: I brought you back here to tell you that while it may be have been unsourced, fixing this is extremely trivial. I don't give a hoot about this particular article, but his gallery is not a "crappy commercial source" imho and if you want people to fix then article then you should enunciate your problem with it. Sorry if that doesn't fit your preconceptions Elinruby (talk) 00:51, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- Adding a non-independent crappy commercial source is not fixing. It is selling. We are not in the business of selling. What you call "trivial" sourcing does nothing to fix just makes it worse - "trivial" should have tipped you off. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 08:25, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- @AlanscottWalker: Um no.... I was using the term in its software development meaning. I apologize for picking the wrong dialect to make my point. I thought, since you were critiquing the software tool, you might know something about software even though you don't seem to be familiar with the features of this instance of it, or for that matter with a representative sample of its users. Commericial, hmm. The same could be said of my article about the thousand-year-old Papal vintages, you know. That vineyard is selling wine today. Is that article also commercial crap? Since it is a direct translation from French Wikipedia, are you saying that French Wikipedia is commercial crap? You really don't want to make me argue this point, seriously. Incidentally what is with the arbitrary insertion of a break in the discussion? Consider, for just a moment, that I might actually have a point. Entertain the notion for a minute. Why are you belittling my statement? Elinruby (talk) 21:57, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- Critiquing software tool? No, I was clearly critiquing an article in English on the English Wikipedia. And I was referring to the crappy commercial source - you pinged me, remember, so that I would know you added it to the article. That was not done in French, it was done in English. As for break, that is your doing, why should I have any idea why you added the crappy source, and then wanted to tell me about it in this break. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:54, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- @Alanscottwalker: Let me use small words. CTX is software. Bad translation can happen with or without software. Lack of sources can happen without software. In software development "trivial" means "easy". Do you see now? Be careful who you patronize next time. 01:07, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
- Critiquing software tool? No, I was clearly critiquing an article in English on the English Wikipedia. And I was referring to the crappy commercial source - you pinged me, remember, so that I would know you added it to the article. That was not done in French, it was done in English. As for break, that is your doing, why should I have any idea why you added the crappy source, and then wanted to tell me about it in this break. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:54, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- @AlanscottWalker: Um no.... I was using the term in its software development meaning. I apologize for picking the wrong dialect to make my point. I thought, since you were critiquing the software tool, you might know something about software even though you don't seem to be familiar with the features of this instance of it, or for that matter with a representative sample of its users. Commericial, hmm. The same could be said of my article about the thousand-year-old Papal vintages, you know. That vineyard is selling wine today. Is that article also commercial crap? Since it is a direct translation from French Wikipedia, are you saying that French Wikipedia is commercial crap? You really don't want to make me argue this point, seriously. Incidentally what is with the arbitrary insertion of a break in the discussion? Consider, for just a moment, that I might actually have a point. Entertain the notion for a minute. Why are you belittling my statement? Elinruby (talk) 21:57, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- Adding a non-independent crappy commercial source is not fixing. It is selling. We are not in the business of selling. What you call "trivial" sourcing does nothing to fix just makes it worse - "trivial" should have tipped you off. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 08:25, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- @Alanscottwalker: I brought you back here to tell you that while it may be have been unsourced, fixing this is extremely trivial. I don't give a hoot about this particular article, but his gallery is not a "crappy commercial source" imho and if you want people to fix then article then you should enunciate your problem with it. Sorry if that doesn't fit your preconceptions Elinruby (talk) 00:51, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- Elinruby: Did you mean to ping me back here, many days after I commented, to tell me you found a pretty crappy commercial source? When I looked at it awhile ago, the article was filled with non-npov/non-referenced/BLP violating text. It is, thus, no comfort that since I commented, awhile ago, someone has according to their edit 'removed the worst of the puffery', and you added that crappy commercial source - its still not policy compliant (even if it is marginally better, since I flagged it) Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:03, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Alanscottwalker: I found a reference for his influences in less time than it took to add the ref code....Elinruby (talk) 19:43, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
- @S Marshall:I'd consider supporting your proposal, perhaps, once I have read it, but could you provide a link for we mere mortals who don't normally follow these proposals? I also disagree that all of these articles require a bilingual editor; some just need a few references and/or a copy edit. But you know I disagree at this point. And if you do, god help us, nuke all of these articles as opposed to one of the other courses of action I have (again) suggested above, please move mine to my draft space if you find them that objectionable. Some sort of clue as to what your issue is would also be nice. Elinruby (talk) 19:43, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
- The revision I want to make is this one. The intended effect is so that a human editor, who has reviewed the script-generated content and given it due consideration and exercise of judgment, can recommend the content for deletion and receive assistance rather than bureaucracy from our admin corps.
The basic problem with these articles is that they are script generated and the scripts are unreliable. Exactly how unreliable they are varies according to the language pair, so for example Spanish-English translations are relatively good, while for example Japanese-English translations are relatively poor; and whether the articles contain specific grammatical constructions that the scripts have trouble with.
You can test its accuracy, and I recommend you do. The script it used, during the problem period, was Google translate. I've just picked some sample text and run it through Google translate in various language pairs, first into a different language and then the translated text back into English, to see how it did. These were the results:-
Source text | Korean | Punjabi | Farsi |
---|---|---|---|
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition | Fourth and seventh years ago, our ancestors left the continent, a new country born in Liberty. | Four score and seven years on this continent, first our father a new nation, brought freedom and dedicated to the proposition | Four score and seven years ago our fathers on this continent, a new nation, the freedom brought, and dedicated to the proposition |
And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. | And when he saw the multitude, he went up to the mountain, and his disciples came, and opened his mouth, and taught him, saying, Blessed are the souls of the poor: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. | Jesus saw the crowds up on the mountain, and when he sat, his disciples came to him and he opened his mouth, and the poor in spirit was teaching, that theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Yes: interestingly the algorithm interpolated "Jesus" into the text.) | And seeing the multitudes, he went to the mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came to him and he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying: Blessed are the poor in spirit: for the kingdom of heaven. |
Editors agree not to publish biographical material concerning living people unless it is accurate | The editors agree not to post electrical materials about living people unless they are the correct person. | To publish the biographical material about the editor, it is right to disagree, | Editors agree to publish biographies of living people, unless it is accurate. |
- I encourage you to try these and other examples with different language pairs. Can you see why you need to speak the original language in order to copyedit accurately?—S Marshall T/C 22:00, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
- But that is not a fair test since it magnifies any word choice errors. There *will* be errors, yes. We clean them up at WP:PNT --- ALL THE TIME. And no, it is not necessary to speak the language always, though it certainly help. I really suggest that maybe you just need a wikibreak from this task. Bad english can mostly be fixed. There are the occasional mysteries, yes. There are colloquialisms, yes. This does not justify wholesale destruction of good content. I was just here to get the link as I mentioned your proposal to one of my PNT colleagues; I need to go but I'll look at your proposal the next time I log in Elinruby (talk) 00:46, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- The liquor was strong but the meat was rotten.
- Translation wonks will recognize the (apocryphal) story behind the sentence above, concerning literal mistranslations exacerbated from there-and-back translation. (The story perhaps originated after the NY World's Fair of 1964, which had a computer translation exhibit in the Russian Pavilion.) In any case, I'm just getting up to speed on this topic and will comment in more detail later.
- Briefly: yes, you definitely have to speak the language to copyedit accurately. I'm actually in favor of a modification to WP:MACHINETRANSLATION to make it stronger. I fully agree with the worse than nothing statement in the policy now, but I'd go one step further: the only thing worse than a machine translation in an encyclopedia, is a machine translation that has been copyedited by a capable and talented monolingual (even worse: by someone who knows a bit of the language and doesn't know what s/he doesn't know) so that the result is beautiful, grammatical, smooth, stylish, wonderful English prose. As a translator, puh-LEEZ leave the crappy, horrible, machine-gobbledygook so that a translator can spot it easily, and fix it accurately. Copyediting it into proper English makes our job much harder.
- If it's too painful to leave it exposed in main space, perhaps moving to Draft space could be an alternative. In fact, rather than a mass-delete, why not a mass-Draft-ify? (Apologies if someone has already said this, I'm still reading the thread.) More later. Mathglot (talk) 01:31, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- mass-Draftify would work for me. And yeah I disagree with you too a little, but I knew that. My point is, we all agree that an issue exists so what do we do? I also have some more reading to do before I comment on what S Marshall (talk · contribs) is proposing. I have a story about the policy but I want to make sure it pertains to this discussion. Elinruby (talk) 22:03, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- Elinruby is certainly correct to say this "wasn't a fair test", because going through the algorithm twice doubles the error rate. But a lot of people reading this discussion will speak only English so this is the only way I can show them what the problem is ---- without that context, they may well find this, and the original discussion at WP:AN/CXT, rather impenetrable because they won't understand the gravity of the concerns.
It was even more unfair because it was me who selected the examples and I don't like machine translations. In order to illustrate my point I went with non-European languages and convoluted sentence structures. If you tried the same exercise with a verse from "Green Eggs and Ham" then you'd get perfect translations 99% of the time. (It tripped me up with the Sermon on the Mount because quite clearly, the algorithm recognised that it was dealing with a Bible verse, which I found fascinating.)
The script is particularly likely to do badly with double-negatives, not-unless constructions, adverbs of time ("since", "during", "for a hundred years"), and the present progressive tense, in some language pairs.
It would certainly be possible to construct a fairer text using more random samples of language.—S Marshall T/C 10:27, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- Elinruby is certainly correct to say this "wasn't a fair test", because going through the algorithm twice doubles the error rate. But a lot of people reading this discussion will speak only English so this is the only way I can show them what the problem is ---- without that context, they may well find this, and the original discussion at WP:AN/CXT, rather impenetrable because they won't understand the gravity of the concerns.
- @S Marshall: alright, I grant you that there aren't many bilinguals here. This *is* the problem in my view. I'll also specify that I don't claim expertise outside the Romance languages, and very little for some of those. But allow me please, since I know you speak or at least read French, to propose a better example. There are common translation errors that can occur, depending on which tool exactly was used. The improperly-translated name (nom propre) problem was real but is now mostly fixed. The fact that a writer whose novels were written in French gave them titles in French should come as a shock to nobody. The correct format for a bibliography in such cases *is* title in the actual language of the words in the book, webpage or whatever. Translated title, if the title is not in English, goes in the optional trans-title (or is it trans_title?) field of the cite template. Language switch to be set if at all possible. If it is not, let me know, and I can reduce the number of foreign words that English wikipedia needs to look at. So. In all languages, pretty much, words like fire and sky and take tend to be both native to the original people and likely to carry additional meanings, as in take an oath, take a bus, take a break etc. On the other hand what the software tool does do extremely well is know the correct translation for arcane or specialized terms, often loanwords, like caravel or apse or stronghold. These words are in my recognition vocabulary not my working vocabulary and using the tool in certain instances saves many lookups. When there is a strong degree of ambiguity or divergence in meaning (like the example on my user page) then THEN yes a fluent or very advanced user is needed. There are known divergences that a bilingual would spot that an English speaker would not. Sure. "Je l'aime beaucoup, mon mari" is a good example. But the fact that this is true does not prove that every line of every one of these articles still needs to be checked before they can be permitted to continue to sully Wikipedia, or that each of these lines needs to be checked by you personally. If you feel overwhelmed, take a break. Elinruby (talk) 21:57, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- I speak English, French, German, Gibberish and Filth. :) Joking aside -- I'm not concerned about noms propres. I'm concerned when the script perverts or even inverts the meaning of the source text. It's quite hard to give you an example because the examples I've discovered have all been deleted, and there's only the one non-English language we share, but perhaps an administrator will confirm for you the sorry history of Daphné Bürki. It was created as a machine translation of fr:Daphné Bürki and the en.wiki version said she was married to Sylvain Quimène, citing this source. Check it out; the source doesn't say that. In fact she was married to Travis Bürki, at least at one time (can't say whether she's still married to him). We had a biographical article where the subject was married to the wrong bloke. It's not okay to keep these around.
Draftification is exactly the same as deleting them. Nobody is going to fix these up in draft space. The number of editors who're competent to fix them is small, and the amount of other translation work those editors have on their hands is very large, and it includes a lot of mainspace work that's more urgent than fixing raw machine translations in draft space, and it always will; we can get back to fixing draft space articles about individual artworks when every Leibniz-prizewinning scientist and every European politician with a seat on their national parliament has a biography. (We're on target never to achieve that. The democratic process means new politicians get elected and replaced faster than their biographies get translated from foreign-language wikipedias.)
I don't object to draftifying these articles if that's the face-saving solution that lets us pretend we're being all inclusionist about it, but it would be more honest to nuke them all from orbit.—S Marshall T/C 00:51, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
- I speak English, French, German, Gibberish and Filth. :) Joking aside -- I'm not concerned about noms propres. I'm concerned when the script perverts or even inverts the meaning of the source text. It's quite hard to give you an example because the examples I've discovered have all been deleted, and there's only the one non-English language we share, but perhaps an administrator will confirm for you the sorry history of Daphné Bürki. It was created as a machine translation of fr:Daphné Bürki and the en.wiki version said she was married to Sylvain Quimène, citing this source. Check it out; the source doesn't say that. In fact she was married to Travis Bürki, at least at one time (can't say whether she's still married to him). We had a biographical article where the subject was married to the wrong bloke. It's not okay to keep these around.
- @S Marshall: alright, I grant you that there aren't many bilinguals here. This *is* the problem in my view. I'll also specify that I don't claim expertise outside the Romance languages, and very little for some of those. But allow me please, since I know you speak or at least read French, to propose a better example. There are common translation errors that can occur, depending on which tool exactly was used. The improperly-translated name (nom propre) problem was real but is now mostly fixed. The fact that a writer whose novels were written in French gave them titles in French should come as a shock to nobody. The correct format for a bibliography in such cases *is* title in the actual language of the words in the book, webpage or whatever. Translated title, if the title is not in English, goes in the optional trans-title (or is it trans_title?) field of the cite template. Language switch to be set if at all possible. If it is not, let me know, and I can reduce the number of foreign words that English wikipedia needs to look at. So. In all languages, pretty much, words like fire and sky and take tend to be both native to the original people and likely to carry additional meanings, as in take an oath, take a bus, take a break etc. On the other hand what the software tool does do extremely well is know the correct translation for arcane or specialized terms, often loanwords, like caravel or apse or stronghold. These words are in my recognition vocabulary not my working vocabulary and using the tool in certain instances saves many lookups. When there is a strong degree of ambiguity or divergence in meaning (like the example on my user page) then THEN yes a fluent or very advanced user is needed. There are known divergences that a bilingual would spot that an English speaker would not. Sure. "Je l'aime beaucoup, mon mari" is a good example. But the fact that this is true does not prove that every line of every one of these articles still needs to be checked before they can be permitted to continue to sully Wikipedia, or that each of these lines needs to be checked by you personally. If you feel overwhelmed, take a break. Elinruby (talk) 21:57, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- I am just coming back to this. I agree about the relatively few translators and the large amount of work, and yet, we so fundamentally disagree. Some of the designated articles do are, in my opinion, within the top percentiles in article quality. Others have in fact been fixed up. You and I consulted about one once. Others, yes, need work, and I at least do get to articles that I say I will get to. Slowly, at times, sure. I have no problem with articles that don't meet a certain standard not going to mainspace, but I don't see why you singly out the translation tool as your criterion. I mention noms propres because I have mentioned one above from Notre-Dame de la Garde where Commander de Vins came across as wine, and this did make the sentence gibberish. But that article did not come out of the CTX tool. Ihave no idea what the Leibniz prize is, but I am not sure it's more notable, in the abstract, than Marcel Proust, but fine. Work on that all you like, sure. But don't tell me it's more important that some mention in Congolese history that there have been civil wars, or I will just laugh at you. The sort of error you mention above with Daphné Büki -- I'll look at it myself shortly, if it's from French I don't need an admin -- can be made by anyone who knows less than they think they do. Automated translation not needed. Now, I propose that since we are talking about this we work out some sort of saner translation process. For instance, if African football leagues are by policy not notable, as someone once told me, fine then, the article should not be in the translation queue. Put something in there about a minimum number of references, require the use of trans-title in the references, whatever is agreed upon is ok with me. Your proposed change would preserve most of by not all of the articles that have been worked on, which is a slight improvement I guess, except you'll also nuke the 3-4 articles that needed nothing and a whole lot of biography that I've avoid because people tend to write me snooty messages to inform me that the person isn't notable, and why waste work when articles like History of Nicaragua are so lacking? Elinruby (talk) 01:01, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
Proposal
Okay, I've gone through this and thought about it, and I'm conditionally a Yes on change to X2 and nuking the list, with an option to save certain files.
S Marshall, I take your point about draftification being pointless, as they'll just sit there with most of them never being edited ever.
I believe you've also persuaded me that the nuke is appropriate, given some conditions below. In order to keep Elinruby and Sam Walton (and me, and others) happy about not deleting certain files we are working on or wish to work on, I had an idea: what if we agree to allow a delay of two weeks to allow interested parties to go through and mark files in the list we want to keep so when the nuke-a-bot comes through, it can pass over the files thus marked. (I don't know if we can gin this up for two weeks from yesterday, but that would be auspicious.)
More specifically, to Elinruby's (22:03, 1 April) "So what do we do?" question, I think here's what we do:
- Those of us who want to retain files, mark them with
{{bots|deny=X2-nukebot}}
to vaccinate them against nuking. - Change X2 accordingly
- Somebody develops the nuke script
- Nuke script should nuke "without prejudice" so that if someone changes their mind later and wants to recreate a file, it shouldn't be "salted" or require admin action to "undelete"; you just recreate it in the normal way you create any new file.
- If needed, we run a pre-nuke test against sandbox files, or can we just trust the vaccination will be respected?
- Start the script up and let 'er rip
Elinruby, if this proposal were accepted, would you change your no to X2 modif to a yes? Sam Walton, would you?
Naturally for this to have any value, we'd have to agree to not vaccinate the whole list, but just the ones we reasonably expect to work on, or judge worthy of keeping. If desired, I can envisage a way to greatly speed up the first step (vaccination) for all of us. Personally, I won't mark any file translated from a language I don't know well enough to evaluate the translation. But, going through all 3500 files is a burden, since there's no point my even clicking on the ones in languages I don't know. If I knew in advance which ones are from Spanish, French, etc., that would be a huge help. If you look at 1300-1350, you'll see that I've marked them with a language code (and a byte count; but that was for something else). I could commit to marking another 200 or 300 with the lang code, maybe more. If we could break up the work that way and everybody just mark the files for lang code, then once that's done, we could all go through the whole list much more quickly, to see which ones we wanted to evaluate for vaccination.
I really think this could be wrapped up in a couple of weeks, if we get agreement. Mathglot (talk) 18:17, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
- Entirely happy with this idea.—S Marshall T/C 19:33, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
- Agree. Amisom (talk) 11:31, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
- This is fine with me. Tazerdadog (talk) 23:03, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Are there any objections to moving forward with this? Tazerdadog (talk) 01:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
- Almost two weeks of SILENCE sounds like "go for it". Primefac (talk) 02:28, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
- I'm still good with this as proposer, of course, but just to reiterate: we'd still need a two-week moratorium *after acceptance* of the proposal before nuking, to allow interested parties to vaccinate such articles as they chose to. I assumed that was clear, but that "go for it" got me a little scared, so thought I'd better raise it again.
- On Tazerdadog's point, what is the procedure for deciding when to go forward with a proposal? Are we there now? Whatever the procedure is, and whenever we deem "acceptance" to happen, can someone close it at that point and box it up like I see on Rfcs, so we can then start the two-week, innoculation period timer ticking without having more opinions straggle in after it's already been decided? Or what's the right way to do this? Mathglot (talk) 07:00, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
- Request formal close, per Mathglot. Do I need to post on ANRFC?—S Marshall T/C 18:40, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
X2-nuke interim period
Wow, cool! Glad we made some progress, and just trying to nail down the next steps to keep things moving smoothly. To recap my understanding:
- we are now in
the "inoculation period" with a fortnight-timer which expires 23:22, 6 May 2017 (UTC)an interim period where we figure out how to implement this. during this period, anyone may tag articles in the list at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review with the proper tag to prevent nuking two weeks hence
A couple of questions:
- do we have to recruit someone to write a script to do the actual nuking?
- what form should the actual "vaccination" tag have? In the proposal above, I just kind of threw out that expression:
{{bots|deny=X2-nukebot}}
but I have no idea how we really need to tag the articles, and maybe that's a question for the script writer? - will the bot also observe
strikeout typeas an indicator not to nuke? A possible issue is inconsistent usage among editors: for example, some editors have not used strikeout for articles they have reviewed and clearly wish to save (e.g. see #1601-1622)
As for me, I will continue to tag a couple hundred more articles with language-tags as I did previously in the 1301-1600 range, to make it easier for everyone to find articles translated from languages they are comfortable working with, and that they therefore might wish to tag. Mathglot (talk) 02:28, 23 April 2017 (UTC) Updated by Mathglot (talk) 09:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
- Let's make two lists, one of articles to delete and the other of articles to retain for the moment. I don't think that it will be necessary to formally request a bot. We have quite a few sysops who could clean them all out with or without scripted assistance.—S Marshall T/C 15:55, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
- I would implement it as a giant sortable wikitable - Something that looks like this:
Name | Language | Vaccinated | Notes |
---|---|---|---|
Jimbo Wales | es | Tazerdadog (talk) | Translation checked |
Earth | ar | -- | Probably Notable |
My mother's garage band | fr | -- | X2'd, not notable |
Tazerdadog (talk) 17:17, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
- Isn't the current list easier to deal with than creating a new table, or two new ones? Can we just go based on strikeout type, or add some unambiguous token like,
nuke=yes
in the content of the items in the enumerated list that need to be deleted? I'm just trying to think what would be the least work to set up, and easiest to mark for those interested in vaccinating articles. - If we decide to go with a table, I might be able to use a fancy regex to create a table from the current bullet list. Although I definitely see why a table is easier to view and interpret once it's set up, I'm not (yet) persuaded that there's an advantage to setting one up in the first place. For one thing, it's harder to edit a table than a bullet list, because of the risk of screwing up cells or rows. Mathglot (talk) 18:59, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
- The real advantage of the table is the ability to sort by language. This way, if we have a volunteer who speaks (for example) only English and Spanish, they can just sort the table by language, and all of the Spanish articles will be shown together. It's harder to edit, but in my opinion, the ease of viewing and extracting the information far outweighs this.
- I have created a list that removes all struck items at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review/Tazerdadog cleanup list. I'm currently working on getting rid of the redlinks as well. Once that is done, we can move to a vaccination model on the articles that have not been cleaned up in the articles thus far. The vaccination can take virtually any form as long as everyone agrees on what it is - I'd recommend that we vaccinate at the central list/table rather than on the article however. Once the two weeks expire, it's trivial to extract the unvaccinated articles and poke a sysop for deletion. Tazerdadog (talk) 00:07, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- @Tazerdadog: This was posted over at Wikipedia talk:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review as well but wanted to mention it here. Timotheus Canens has created a language-sortable table in their sandbox at User:Timotheus Canens/sandbox that I think is similar to what you were thinking. Mz7 (talk) 04:06, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
- I have created a list that removes all struck items at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review/Tazerdadog cleanup list. I'm currently working on getting rid of the redlinks as well. Once that is done, we can move to a vaccination model on the articles that have not been cleaned up in the articles thus far. The vaccination can take virtually any form as long as everyone agrees on what it is - I'd recommend that we vaccinate at the central list/table rather than on the article however. Once the two weeks expire, it's trivial to extract the unvaccinated articles and poke a sysop for deletion. Tazerdadog (talk) 00:07, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- And we may have to recreate the table, as I didn't notice it and have been continuing to mark language codes on the main list (and shall continue to do so, unless someone yells "Stop!"). Also, not sure how trivial it is: given a full set of instructions what to do, then, yes, it's trivial, but this is not formatted data (yet) and there are all sorts of questions a sysop might have, such as, what to do with ones marked "moved", or "redirected", and other situations I've come across while going through the list that don't spring to mind. We don't want to burden the sysop with an illy-defined task, so all of those situations should be spelled out before we ask them to take their time to do it, as if there are too many questions, they'll either give up, or they'll do whatever they feel like. Mathglot (talk) 06:20, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
- @Timotheus Canens: Tazerdadog (talk) 05:55, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
X2 countdown and vaccinate indicators
Floating a proposal to get the clock started on the two weeks. Any user can write "Vaccinated" (or anything equivalent , as long as the meaning is understood) on the list on the same line as the Strike out any article they want to vaccinate. I can then go through and use regex to remove the vaccinated articles line-by-line from the delete list. I will then separate out the articles with no substantive commentary attached (anything beyond a language or a byte count is substantive) for an admin to delete or draftify. Any article which has been individually substantively discussed will be evaluated independently. If this is OK, we can start the clock. Tazerdadog (talk) 22:23, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Updated Tazerdadog (talk) 06:07, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
- People are already using
strikeouttype as the "vaccinate" flag so no additional method is needed though I see nothing wrong with using both, if someone has already started with the the other method. Mathglot (talk) 22:51, 6 May 2017 (UTC)- Also, I have been placing substantive commentary on plenty of articles, with the intention of facilitating the work of the group as a whole, in order to aid people in deciding whether that article is worth their time to look at and evaluate. In my case at least, substantive commentary does not indicate a desire to save, and if you intend to use it that way in the general case, then you need to suggest another indication I can use as a "poison pill" indicator to ensure it is nuked despite the substantive commentary. Mathglot (talk) 23:31, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Mathglot: Strikeout works even better than my idea, as it is easier to write the regex for. I was figuring that substantive commentary at least deserved to be read before we nuked them, although unless a comment was actively positive on the article I would have sorted it as a delete. If you want every article you commented on to be deleted, I can use your signature as the poison pill. Otherwise, use what you want, just make sure it is clear what it is. Ideally, place it at the start of a line, so I don't have to think when writing the regex. Tazerdadog (talk) 06:07, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Tazerdadog: If you need a tester, feel free to shoot me a pattern; I'm a bit of a regex wonk myself, plus I have a nice test app for it. Can't use my sig as poison pill, cuz often my commentary is unsigned cuz I did them 20 or 50 at a time, with the edit summary carefully explaining what was done, but no sig on the individual line items. Beyond that, quite a few have commentary by multiple people, so even if I did comment (and even sign) others may have, too. The only clear way to do this, afaics, is to have an unequivocal keep (or nuke) indicator (or more than one is okay, if you want to OR them) but anything judg-y like "substantive commentary" seems risky to me. In the latter case, we should just get everyone to review all their edits they forgot to strike, and strike them now, or forever hold their peace. In my own case, no matter how positive my comment, or how long, if there's no strike on the article title, it's a "nuke". It occurs to me we should poll everyone and get positive buy-in from all concerned that they understand the indicator system, to make sure everyone knows "strike" equals "keep" and anything else is nuke (or whatever we decide). It won't do to have 2,000 articles nuked, and then the day after, "Oh, but I thought..." Know what I mean?Mathglot (talk) 06:50, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Mathglot: I think the solution is to draftify until everyone agrees that no mistakes have been made, then delete. I'm happy to do the grunt work of the manual checking of longer entries, and I don't think it is particularly risky to do so. However, the vast majority are short, and can and should be handed with a little regex script. We do need to make sure that the expectation of strikeout = delete instead of strikeout = resolved was clear to all parties. As for a deleteword, literally anything will do if it is unique and impossible to misinterpret. I would recommend "kill" as this deleteword, as it is clear what the meaning is, possible to write the regex for, and currently has only a couple of false hits in the page that can be worked around easily. Does this work for you?
- The reasoning for checking longer entries is to try to catch entries like this:
- @Tazerdadog: If you need a tester, feel free to shoot me a pattern; I'm a bit of a regex wonk myself, plus I have a nice test app for it. Can't use my sig as poison pill, cuz often my commentary is unsigned cuz I did them 20 or 50 at a time, with the edit summary carefully explaining what was done, but no sig on the individual line items. Beyond that, quite a few have commentary by multiple people, so even if I did comment (and even sign) others may have, too. The only clear way to do this, afaics, is to have an unequivocal keep (or nuke) indicator (or more than one is okay, if you want to OR them) but anything judg-y like "substantive commentary" seems risky to me. In the latter case, we should just get everyone to review all their edits they forgot to strike, and strike them now, or forever hold their peace. In my own case, no matter how positive my comment, or how long, if there's no strike on the article title, it's a "nuke". It occurs to me we should poll everyone and get positive buy-in from all concerned that they understand the indicator system, to make sure everyone knows "strike" equals "keep" and anything else is nuke (or whatever we decide). It won't do to have 2,000 articles nuked, and then the day after, "Oh, but I thought..." Know what I mean?Mathglot (talk) 06:50, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Mathglot: Strikeout works even better than my idea, as it is easier to write the regex for. I was figuring that substantive commentary at least deserved to be read before we nuked them, although unless a comment was actively positive on the article I would have sorted it as a delete. If you want every article you commented on to be deleted, I can use your signature as the poison pill. Otherwise, use what you want, just make sure it is clear what it is. Ideally, place it at the start of a line, so I don't have to think when writing the regex. Tazerdadog (talk) 06:07, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
- Also, I have been placing substantive commentary on plenty of articles, with the intention of facilitating the work of the group as a whole, in order to aid people in deciding whether that article is worth their time to look at and evaluate. In my case at least, substantive commentary does not indicate a desire to save, and if you intend to use it that way in the general case, then you need to suggest another indication I can use as a "poison pill" indicator to ensure it is nuked despite the substantive commentary. Mathglot (talk) 23:31, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
|Battle_of_Urica -seems fine, at least not a translation issueElinruby (talk) 19:14, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
Tazerdadog (talk) 08:02, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Tazerdadog: If by "draftify" you mean quarantine, i.e., staging/moving all the to-be-deleted files someplace prior to the hard delete, I totally agree. (Whether that should actually be the current Draft namespace is debatable, but might be the right solution.) As far as regexes, I count 738 <s> tags, 732 </s> tags, 587 keepers, and 2785 nukers as of May 7 ver. 779254187. Mathglot (talk) 22:40, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Mathglot: Ok, sounds good. By draftify, i meant "Move out of mainspace to a different namespace where the content is accessible for translators, but unlikely to be stumbled upon accidentally by someone who thins they are reading an actual encyclopedia article." it also should be noted that when any of these pages are deleted, it should be a WP:SOFTDELETE, i.e. if someone asks for a small number to be restored after they have been deleted so that they can work on them they can just ask any admin to do so. I think that's all that needs to be resolved for now, so I'm going to go ahead and start the two week countdown until someone yells at me to stop. Pinging some participants: @S Marshall:@Elinruby:@Yngvadottir: Tazerdadog (talk) 23:12, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
For clarity, the process is: At the deadline, June 6, 2017 all struck articles listed at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review will be retained, and all unstruck articles will be deleted. Articles with significant commentary attached will have the commentary read before the deletion, but the default is the struck/unstruck status unless the commentary indicates clearly the opposite result is better. The work "kill" may be added to unambiguously mark an article for deletion. On or after June 6th, the regex nerds will compile a list of articles to delete and retain. The delete list will be moved to draft space (or subpages of Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review), where it will be audited briefly just to make sure nobody made a systematic error, then deleted. Tazerdadog (talk) 23:12, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
- Per #deadline it's June 6. Your clarifications on "draftify" and the process all sound good, otherwise.
P.S. Note that one article matches/kill/i
but none matches/\bkill\b/i
. Mathglot (talk) 23:28, 7 May 2017 (UTC)- Fixed, I was unaware of that discussion, thank you. Tazerdadog (talk) 23:34, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Mathglot and Tazerdog: so for purposes of making life easier I will strike what I think should be struck. At one point people were checking my work so I was rather tentative initially. I am following the regex discussion but haven't used it in a while so save me the trouble of looking this up -- did you conclude that "kill" would be useful, or not? Elinruby (talk) 00:58, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Elinruby: If the title is strikeout type, it will be kept; if it isn't, it won't. Placing "Kill" on an article has no effect at nuke time, but it does have a beneficial effect now:, i.e., it saves time for others. It lets others know that you have looked at this one and found it wanting, so they should save their breath and not even bother looking at it. For example: You marked #18 Stevia_cultivation_in_Paraguay "really, really bad". That was enough for me not to bother looking at it, so you saved me time, there. If you want to place "kill" on the non-deserving items you pass by, that will help everybody else. I may do the same. But in the end, on Nuke day, the "kill" markings won't have any effect. Make sense? Mathglot (talk) 01:20, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Mathglot: yeah it does, thanks. And indeed I seem to be the most inclusionist in the discussion so if I think it's more work than it's worth I doubt that anyone else in the discussion would disagree. Elinruby (talk) 01:31, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
- Re-pinging@Tazerdadog: on Elinruby's behalf for confirmation. Due to the ping typo above, he may not have seen this, and it's really his call, not mine. Mathglot (talk) 01:35, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Mathglot: yeah it does, thanks. And indeed I seem to be the most inclusionist in the discussion so if I think it's more work than it's worth I doubt that anyone else in the discussion would disagree. Elinruby (talk) 01:31, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Elinruby: If the title is strikeout type, it will be kept; if it isn't, it won't. Placing "Kill" on an article has no effect at nuke time, but it does have a beneficial effect now:, i.e., it saves time for others. It lets others know that you have looked at this one and found it wanting, so they should save their breath and not even bother looking at it. For example: You marked #18 Stevia_cultivation_in_Paraguay "really, really bad". That was enough for me not to bother looking at it, so you saved me time, there. If you want to place "kill" on the non-deserving items you pass by, that will help everybody else. I may do the same. But in the end, on Nuke day, the "kill" markings won't have any effect. Make sense? Mathglot (talk) 01:20, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Mathglot and Tazerdog: so for purposes of making life easier I will strike what I think should be struck. At one point people were checking my work so I was rather tentative initially. I am following the regex discussion but haven't used it in a while so save me the trouble of looking this up -- did you conclude that "kill" would be useful, or not? Elinruby (talk) 00:58, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
- Fixed, I was unaware of that discussion, thank you. Tazerdadog (talk) 23:34, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
Mathglot's interpretation above is basically correct. Please do not duplicate work you've already done just to add the kill flag, but please strike entities that could be ambiguous (I will manually evaluate your intention based on comments that you left, but the default is the struck/unstruck status unless you are clear in your comments otherwise). Please do use these flags from now on, or on any where your intention is unclear. Tazerdadog (talk) 02:15, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
- Tazerdadog I'm looking at formation of the strikeout tags enclosing the linked titles, and found 43 anomalies that might trip up the nuke pattern. I'll probably starting fixing these tomorrow. Mathglot (talk) 09:44, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
assumption for User space items
@Tazerdadog: I notice that various contributors are strikeout-tagging Userspace items: see #14, 15, 691, and 695 for example. I have not been tagging any of them, my assumption being that all User space items will be kept automatically regardless of presence/absence of strikeout title (and ignoring any "kill"), and since it's trivial to skip over them with the regex it's not necessary to tag them. If you agree, please make a note at WT:CXT/PTR, or let me know and I will, so everyone can save their breath marking these. Mathglot (talk) 01:25, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
- That was my assumption as well, all entries outside of mainspace should be fine. Tazerdadog (talk) 01:39, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
rescuing clobbers by CXT
@Tazerdadog: I just rescued #2611 Garbacz. This was a good stub created in 2008, then clobbered in 2016 by ContentTranslation tool, leaving a rubbish translation deserving of deletion. I just rescued it by reverting it back to the last good version before the clobber, and struck it as a keeper.
I'm concerned that there may be an unknown number of formerly good articles of long standing in the list that we don't want to delete, simply because they got clobbered by CXT at some point and thus ended up in the list, and time ran out before anybody got a chance to look at them. If I can get a list of potential clobbers in the next week, I will check them all out. (Am betting it's less than a couple hundred, total; but maybe S Marshall would help out, if it turns out to be more than that.) Shouldn't be too hard to create such a list:
pseudocode to generate a list of possible CXT clobbers
|
---|
# Print out names of Titles in CXT/PTR that may be clobbers of good, older articles. # (Doesn't handle the case where oldest version is CXT, followed by user edits to make it good, # followed by 2nd cxt later which clobbers the good version; but that's probably rare.) # For each item in WP:CXT/PTR list do: $line = text from next <ol> item in list If the bracketed article title near the beginning of $line is within s-tags, next loop Extract $title from the $line If $title is not in article space, next loop Read Rev History of $title into array @RevHist Get $oldest_es = edit summary string of oldest version (last index in @RevHist) If 'ContentTranslation' is a substring of $oldest_es, next loop Pop @RevHist: drop oldest summary from @RevHist so it now contains all versions except the oldest one If 'ContentTranslation' is a substring of @RevHist viewed as a single string, do: Print "$title possibly clobbered by CXT" End For |
Are you able to create a list like this, or do you know someone who could? Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 21:56, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- Why not just ask the deleting administrators to check the translation is the first revision before they push the button?—S Marshall T/C 23:32, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- That would be a shitton of work for the deleting admin. Tazerdadog (talk) 00:57, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
@Tazerdadog: I think I've maybe got your query: I see from Samtar's query that you use MySQL. If that's the case, then to do this, I think you can take Samtar's query 11275 exactly as it is, with one more WHERE
clause, to exclude the oldest revision:
AND WHERE rev.date > @MIN_REV_DATE
where @MIN_REV_DATE is either separately selected and assigned to a variable [as there would be one min value per title, it would have to either be an array variable or more likely a 2-col temp table with title and MIN date, which could be joined to rev.] Edited by Mathglot (talk) 18:50, 19 May 2017 (UTC), or probably more efficiently, a subquery getting the oldest rev date for that page using standard "minimum value of a column" techniques. So the result will be a subset of Samtar's original query, limited to cases where ct_tag was equal to 'ContentTranslation' somewhere other than in the oldest revision for that page. (By the way, I don't have access to your file structure, so I have no idea if 'rev.date' really exists, but what I mean by that, is the TIMESTAMP of that particular revision, whatever the field is really called. Also, again depending on the file structure, you might need to use techqniques for groupwise minimum of a column to get the min rev date for each page.)
Mathglot (talk) 03:09, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Mathglot: Unfortunately, I've never used MySQL before. I was hoping I could muddle through with some luck and googling, but I had no such luck. Tazerdadog (talk) 03:53, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Tazerdadog: And I could totally do it if I had the file structure but I don't; but my strong hunch is that this is very easy, and needs one additional "WHERE" plus another query (probably the groupwise MIN thing) to grab the min value to exclude in the new WHERE. OTOH, if you have access to Quarry, shoot me your query by email if you want, and I'll fix it up, and you can take that and try again, and with several back-and-forths I bet we can get it. Or if you've got zip, I can try a few establishing queries for you to try, and then we can try to build the real one depending on the results you get from those. (Or, we can just wait for someone else to do it, if they will; it really should only take minutes.) Mathglot (talk) 05:11, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Tazerdadog and S Marshall: I don't think this is getting enough attention, and your previous request appears to have stalled at V Pump. This is not good. We need to get this list. Is there someone you can lean on, or request help from, to kick-start this? Alternatively, if someone will give me access to Quarry, a MySQL account permitting
SELECT
andCREATE TEMPORARY TABLE
(or even better,MEMORY
table) and a pointer to the file structure descriptions, I can do this myself and create a list to protect these articles. Mathglot (talk) 06:32, 22 May 2017 (UTC) - *Bump* Mathglot (talk) 18:19, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Tazerdadog and S Marshall: I don't think this is getting enough attention, and your previous request appears to have stalled at V Pump. This is not good. We need to get this list. Is there someone you can lean on, or request help from, to kick-start this? Alternatively, if someone will give me access to Quarry, a MySQL account permitting
Thanks, Cryptic for db report 19060. We now have the list of clobbers, and can attend to it. Please see WP:CXT/PTR/Clobbers. Mathglot (talk) 05:18, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
X2 Nuke time
The time agreed on by consensus has passed over a month ago. In the interest of getting things rolling again, here are the lists of articles to be draftified, and the list of articles we were able to retain.
In the interest of making my work easy to check, here are the steps and regex I used to identify what should be draftified or retained:
Technical regex stuff
|
---|
Working on the wikitext: Plaintext find and replace <s>| with |<s> Replace regular expression ^[^|].* with | (removing lines that do not start with a pipe, reducing the list to just the articles) Plaintext replace | wit nothing regex replace ^[\n\r]+ with nothing (remove blank lines) plaintext replace ''' with nothing For the to be draftified: regex replace ^[<].* with nothing (remove strikeouts) regex replace ^[\n\r]+ with nothing (remove blank lines) Regex replace ]].* with ]] (remove everything after the first pair of closing square brackets) For the to be retained: regex replace ^[[].* with nothing (remove strikeouts) regex replace ^[\n\r]+ with nothing (remove blank lines) plaintext replace <s> with nothing Find the string "kill", manually deal with any instances (only one used in the correct context was [[Gangsta Black]]) |
Pinging @MusikAnimal:, who has a bot designed to move pages to draftspace en masse. Also pinging @Mathglot:, @SMarshall:, @DGG:, and @Cryptic:. Please ping anyone whom I have forgotten.
Cheers, Tazerdadog (talk) 23:52, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
Fixing ping @S Marshall: Tazerdadog (talk) 23:54, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- If there are no objections, can we get started on this @MusikAnimal:? Tazerdadog (talk) 01:43, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- @Tazerdadog: I'll also wait just a tad bit to make sure there is no opposition. Correct me if I'm wrong, we want to do the same thing as last time – move to draft space without leaving a redirect, then deactivate the categories? Also, I need something to link to in the move summary. The page should clearly describe why we're doing this and that there was a relevant discussion, etc. Not sure if this discussion will suffice, but anyway lots of people were confused last time so the more clear we can be the better — MusikAnimal talk 02:18, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Heh, scrolling up it looks like this is the right discussion to link to (via PermaLink). Please confirm :) — MusikAnimal talk 02:20, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Should be the exact same as last time - move to draft space, and then deactivate the categories. The above discussion is the appropriate one to link to. Tazerdadog (talk) 02:37, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Despite a big review effort in May-June coordinated by Mathglot and Elinruby, which has saved about a third of the articles in question, we still stand to lose many babies in this bathwater. The intent still seems to be that mass-draftification will be quickly followed by mass-deletion. Now the original discussion on X2 was closed urging
a degree of caution ... Administrators must apply judgment and speedily delete only CXT articles that would obviously require more effort to fix than to start from scratch.
However, this present talk of "nuking" suggests that little further review will be carried out before wielding X2. - If this is the case we will be deleting articles such as Jessica Vall, which has been extensively edited and expanded, leaving virtually nothing of what originally emerged from CXT. Other cases include Juana de la Concepción, Isabel Hubard Escalera, Pedro Pablo Oliva. They are now articles in clear English, well referenced and probably to certainly notable. Elinruby, you did a lot of work to improve Berta Cabral, are you content to see it go down the pan? Domingo Pais is now a valid redirect; Aphelion (disambiguation) is a valid disambig page. Are we to condemn all these because of the circumstances of their birth?
- Yes, the articles listed should be moved to draft space, which should allay any BLP concerns. Then, they should remain there until individually reviewed. Those still in garbled English (referring to people as "it" and so on), unreferenced or adverts, can then be tagged X2 without more ado. Those that competent editors have worked on and made into decent articles should be moved back to mainspace: Noyster (talk), 10:53, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- @Noyster: I am perfectly happy to leave the articles in draftspace indefinitely instead of deleting them. However, it is time to get them out of mainspace. Tazerdadog (talk) 21:05, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Heh, scrolling up it looks like this is the right discussion to link to (via PermaLink). Please confirm :) — MusikAnimal talk 02:20, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- @Tazerdadog: I'll also wait just a tad bit to make sure there is no opposition. Correct me if I'm wrong, we want to do the same thing as last time – move to draft space without leaving a redirect, then deactivate the categories? Also, I need something to link to in the move summary. The page should clearly describe why we're doing this and that there was a relevant discussion, etc. Not sure if this discussion will suffice, but anyway lots of people were confused last time so the more clear we can be the better — MusikAnimal talk 02:18, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
Poking people on this, any objections before we move forward? Tazerdadog (talk) 07:34, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- @Tazerdadog: The "to be draftified" list above contains a lot of red links and redirects. I assume this is stale data? Should the redirects be moved along with the target, and the deleted pages simply skipped? — MusikAnimal talk 01:10, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- @MusikAnimal:, the list I used was the master list located at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review, and the list was taken from the wikitext at approximately the time I posted the list. No effort was made to remove the red-linked pages in that list. Redlinks should definitely just be skipped. I think redirects should also be skipped, as they can't realistically be faulty translations. Tazerdadog (talk) 07:23, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- I am preoccupied with non-Wikipedia things at the moment and will be for several days more. Personally I think X2 is a huge mistake but I've been through the list thoroughly and though I am sure I have missed some good articles, since I found more every time I looked, I can't realistically commit right now to more than I have already committed to. So. My question is, how would I find these articles once they are in draft?
Berta Carbral was, as I recall, an Endo999 specialon kind of an important topic -- given the egregious errors I have found in some of his other work though, I can't really trust it without putting it under a microscope. Despite the previous work. I have enough going on with his articles on military fortifications, which I have said I would rescue. (And I really have to say that banning him would have made much mor sense than this ham-handed wholesale deletion. But I digress.) I can't really take the BLP claim seriously since the two articles out of the 3500 on the list that DID have BLP issues have been left to languish on the list. But ok. This was decided, albeit on the the basis of wildly exaggerated fears, and I guess we're doing it whether it's a good idea or not. Elinruby (talk) 06:36, 16 July 2017 (UTC)- Correcting myself -- Berta Cabral was not created by Endo999, and as Noyster remarked, it's really not that bad, so I have pre-emptively moved it to my draft space, as it fits a category of article I have tried to fish out of this mess. I am fairly sure there are others that should not be deleted either, but just tell me how to find them and I guess we'll go from there. I do stand by my comments on Endo999 tho ;) Elinruby (talk) 06:54, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- When this mass move to draft space finally takes place, what I think should happen is that a list of articles moved will be retained and its location made known at least here and at WT:PNT, with editors encouraged to continue reviewing them one by one. Editors having reviewed an article may then move it back to mainspace or tag X2, but no mass delete: Noyster (talk), 07:31, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- Correcting myself -- Berta Cabral was not created by Endo999, and as Noyster remarked, it's really not that bad, so I have pre-emptively moved it to my draft space, as it fits a category of article I have tried to fish out of this mess. I am fairly sure there are others that should not be deleted either, but just tell me how to find them and I guess we'll go from there. I do stand by my comments on Endo999 tho ;) Elinruby (talk) 06:54, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- I am preoccupied with non-Wikipedia things at the moment and will be for several days more. Personally I think X2 is a huge mistake but I've been through the list thoroughly and though I am sure I have missed some good articles, since I found more every time I looked, I can't realistically commit right now to more than I have already committed to. So. My question is, how would I find these articles once they are in draft?
- @MusikAnimal:, the list I used was the master list located at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review, and the list was taken from the wikitext at approximately the time I posted the list. No effort was made to remove the red-linked pages in that list. Redlinks should definitely just be skipped. I think redirects should also be skipped, as they can't realistically be faulty translations. Tazerdadog (talk) 07:23, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
Appeal my TBan (unarchived for admin closure)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Half a year ago, I was TBanned from all deletion related processes. I have been told that I could apply to have my TBan lifted after 6 months, which is today. Ever since I was TBanned, I have focused my attention in improving voice actor articles by citing reliable sources, as well as placing a new template in them which encourages contributors to source their information. If I do succeed in lifting my current restrictions, I would still continue to contribute to Wikipedia by improving/writing voice actor articles (which can be viewed on my userpage), more often than AFD procedures as I believe that I am more capable in the former. I believe that I have proven that I could contribute to other areas in the encyclopedia, which was a concern when it was believed that I am too obsessed with the deletion process. I hope the community and admins will consider my appeal, and I look forward to continuing working with you all. Sk8erPrince (talk) 04:12, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
- Why do you want the topic ban lifted? What has it prevented you from doing that would have benefited Wikipedia? Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:16, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
- So that I may contest PRODs on articles that I care about and participate in AFD discussions, which are both currently undoable due to my TBan. Even though my main area of focus has shifted, I would still like to redeem the privileges that I once had. Sk8erPrince (talk) 05:22, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
- How do you expect to move forward without running into the same problems of a battleground attitude, mass nominations and rudeness [2] that got you the ban in the first place? Dennis Brown - 2¢ 09:39, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
- As mentioned above, since my primary focus is no longer AFDing (and will no longer be if this appeal is approved), mass nominations won't be a problem as I will be spending most of my time here citing reliable sources on voice actor articles than nominating articles for deletion. I have no intention of being rude in AFDs ever again; rather, I would approach those discussions in a calmer, civil manner, I promise. This is how I plan to move forward. Sk8erPrince (talk) 10:25, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
- I'm inclined to support this appeal, backed up with a reminder that any resumption of the previous behaviour will quickly result in the TBAN being replaced, perhaps alongside a block for abusive behaviour. But, that's not a threat. I'd expect the same to be applied to me; if I started mass-nominating, I'd expect to be sanctioned. What tips it into 'support', for me, is that this user has hundreds of edits since the TBAN was placed, and no blocks. There was a concern in early January that maybe the editor had violated the TBAN. Rather than become combative, the user discussed the situation. And that was early in the ban. I would encourage the user (encourage, but not require, and not request a response about) to consider what steps they will take if they find themselves heading down the wrong road again. In my experience, it helps to have a plan ahead of time to avoid getting in trouble again. --Yamla (talk) 11:42, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
- I'm tending to support too, partly because the appeal has been presented in a credible way, partly because of Yamla's reasoning, partly because I really do believe in second chances (unless it's obviously a bad idea), and partly because Sk8erPrince will be aware that any repetition of the problems that led to the ban is likely to result in its reinstatement with very little chance of being lifted again. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:50, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
- Supporting purely out of benefit of the doubt and believing everyone deserves a 2nd chance. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:08, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
- Support per improvements and acknowledging that next time, the ban will be indefinite and appeal time will be 1 year or longer. Capitals00 (talk) 17:14, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
Support- AGF regarding OP's improved attitude. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:20, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
- Sorry, OP blew it with their comment below. Deletion may be a necessary thing, but it's not something to celebrate. I guess their attitude hasn't really changed much at all. Thanks to TheGracefulSlick for point it out. Oppose. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:32, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
:::If my attitude hasn't changed, I would have said that it wasn't Grace's business (that was actually what I said in the Tban discussion). Instead, I calmly explained my reasoning for keeping such a list. I fail to see how listing articles that I have managed to delete has anything to do with a battleground attitude or general rudeness, which were concerns when I was Tbanned. Keeping personal records doesn't mean I'm celebrating, nor does it mean that I am gloating that I am very good at the process. Sk8erPrince (talk) 08:08, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
- Comment - I'm not entirely sure if I'm just making a big deal out of it but did anyone else notice Sk8er still has all the articles he has deleted listed on his userpage -- almost like they were points or victories? I think it is right to ask: Sk8erPrince why do you find it is neccessary to keep such a list of "successful" AfDs and CSDs? I'm willing to support you as long as you have the right attitude toward the deleting processes.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 02:14, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
- I'll have a second go at answering that question. It's not necessary to keep that deletion list as long as there's viewable records of my AFD stats. I have removed it, so it no longer poses as a potential issue. Sk8erPrince (talk) 04:33, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
::The same could be asked for listing articles that I have tremendously improved, really. As long as it's a significant achievement, I'll list it in my userpage. Sk8erPrince (talk) 02:19, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
- Question: Would you please explain how these deleted articles are "a significant achievement", equal to that of articles you've "tremendously improved"? BlackcurrantTea (talk) 07:11, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
::::They're not equal achievements. They're entirely different processes; also, at present day, I think article expansion is more contributive (at least, I have been able to contribute more effectively in that area). However, the AFD process was what I had been doing before I started getting actively involved in article contribution. Since AFD was the only way for me to contribute (that's what I thought, at least), those were the only achievements I've made, and they were significant in my POV. It is simply a personal record, nothing more (so I don't forget what I did manage to achieve). Sk8erPrince (talk) 08:08, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
*Clarification: I just found out that the TBan discussion had listed keeping my personal list of successful deletions as an issue when combined with other more immediate issues such as rudeness, combative, refusal to integrate into the community and having a battleground mentality (it should also be noted that the main concerns took up most of the OP's post and those that support placing a TBan on me, and that my personal list was only briefly mentioned in just a few sentences). I would like to take this opportunity, since Grace has pointed this out, to clarify the purpose of keeping a list. I don't deny that I was unpleasant back then, and that I was rather immature and inexperienced when dealing with AFD procedures (mass nominations without having conducted enough research is one of them). Despite that, I still managed to achieve something in the end, and keeping those AFDs as personal records helps me learn and move forward when looking back. It is part of the learning experience.Sk8erPrince (talk) 08:40, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose. Successful AFDs are "significant achievements"? If you had linked to the titles themselves -- perhaps as a watchlist against re-creation or as a guide for future re-creation if circumstances change -- I might have thought you had a point. But it's a list of links to the AFD pages, so serves no purpose other than that of a trophy list, like a fighter pilot painting his kills on his aircraft. --Calton | Talk 23:23, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
- Update: I just remembered that my personal AFD records could be viewed using the AFD stats tool, so I've removed the deletion list on my userpage. I don't want to give the wrong impression that I'm keeping victory lists. Sk8erPrince (talk) 01:48, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
- Comment I have no opinion on the Tban but since I was aware of this discussion I was surprised to see Sk8erPrince add himself to the Active AfC reviewer list which I reverted [3] Keeping a list of AfD nominations is pretty silly. They are not trophies, just spam fighting. I can see, however, putting together a list to disprove accusations of making bad AfDs. I wish Sk8erPrince all the luck. Fighting spam attracts all kinds of unwanted attention. Legacypac (talk) 07:22, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, you're right. They are not trophies, so if keeping such a list attracts unwanted (negative) attention, I'd rather just delete it off of my userpage, which I did. I mean, there's other ways of viewing my AFD stats anyway, so it's not all that necessary to keep it.
- "putting together a list to disprove accusations of making bad AfDs"
- Thank you for understanding. That was actually another reason why I put together that list. Regardless, since the list has been removed, I think it would be for the best for all of us to not dwell on how it might be concerning. Sk8erPrince (talk) 09:05, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose - Sorry Sk8er but that was not a response that would give me any confidence in seeing the Tban being lifted. With all the struck comments here, I feel you are just looking for a response that appeases editors instead of one that reflects upon your current mindset.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 14:03, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
- Support per Dennis Brown and Beyond My Ken. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 14:26, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, I changed my !vote from "support" to "oppose". Given the discussion that's gone on since, I continue to think that change was the correct call. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:40, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
- I'm still willing to give them a chance. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:58, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
- "You're a better man than I am, Dennis Brown." - Rudyard Kipling. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:16, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
- I doubt that. I'm just not afraid to be proven a fool. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:17, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
- Support - per Dennis Brown.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:22, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- Support I think that we can give them another chance. SP has shown that they can work well with others, which was the point of the ban. --Adam in MO Talk 00:37, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
- Hopeful support I think it is time to extend the rope. But there should be an explicit understanding that there will be serious consequences if the behaviour for which the TBan was imposed is demonstrated again. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:00, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
- Support - AGF on the request that seems reasonable. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:24, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
- Weak support - I do have a couple of concerns but like Kudpung would be willing to dole out some AGF. Blackmane (talk) 03:48, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- Support -- provided the editor follows the AfD best practices, I don't see a reason not to give them another chance. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:46, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
Request to remove invisible characters from pages
I would like to start removing invisible characters from pages. -- Magioladitis (talk) 14:14, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- Please provide a lot more details about this and why it is necessary. — xaosflux Talk 14:33, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- They can break links and citation templates, but I was sure that Yobot already did such a thing. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 14:58, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- Jo-Jo Eumerus True but I was asked to request re-approval. -- Magioladitis (talk) 15:02, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- Xaosflux Per CheckWiki documentation "This could be a problem inside an article.", per AutoEd documentation "These characters are hard to remove by hand because they all "invisible", but they can cause problems and unnecessarily increase the page's size.". Inside URLs, images they can break filenames and urls, etc. -- Magioladitis (talk) 15:06, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- They can break links and citation templates, but I was sure that Yobot already did such a thing. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 14:58, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
Oppose in general. No opposition for fixing things that are broken (the URLs, broken images, etc.), but I would likely oppose removing an invisible character in some other random space that isn't causing a problem (unless accompanied by another substantive fix). Edits removing invisible characters that aren't breaking anything puts this in WP:CONTEXTBOT territory. This falls under WP:COSMETICBOT and I can think of no reason to override that here. ~ Rob13Talk 15:18, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- Per a recent discussion, I would suggest we tread carefully due to a tban that is in place. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:32, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- @Dennis Brown: The topic ban specifically included an exemption to discuss whether COSMETICBOT applies to Magioladitis' own bots (so long as not excessive), so there's not much danger here. In any event, since he's seeking consensus, COSMETICBOT itself is not too relevant. It can be overridden by consensus. I'm just noting that I see no reason to make an exception here for cases where things aren't broken. ~ Rob13Talk 15:34, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- My note was really a note to all of us more than him, to be careful so he isn't trapped into not being able to make a request. Maybe I'm over cautious. I agree, fixing things that really aren't broken seems to be unnecessary load. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:37, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- BU Rob13 This is CHECKWIKI related in case you missed that. In fact, this is CHECKWIKI error 16. I already noted that this is CHECKWIKI related in my reply above. Thanks, Magioladitis (talk) 15:54, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- Dennis Brown I plan to fix these pages in addition to other fixes. -- Magioladitis (talk) 15:59, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- Dennis Brown There is no tban in place about this request. -- Magioladitis (talk) 16:00, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- @Dennis Brown: The topic ban specifically included an exemption to discuss whether COSMETICBOT applies to Magioladitis' own bots (so long as not excessive), so there's not much danger here. In any event, since he's seeking consensus, COSMETICBOT itself is not too relevant. It can be overridden by consensus. I'm just noting that I see no reason to make an exception here for cases where things aren't broken. ~ Rob13Talk 15:34, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- Is this a request to get approval to submit this as a BRFA, or just edit you want to make without a bot flag using your own account? — xaosflux Talk 16:17, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- Xaosflux My own account. I don't need to come here for my bot acccount. I can just fill out a BRFA asaik. -- Magioladitis (talk) 16:25, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- @Magioladitis: Thanks, do you have any estimate for how many of these there are and at what edit rate you plan to run? There seem to be recent concerns from other editors that you are flooding watchlists. — xaosflux Talk 18:13, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- Xaosflux Probably 3,000-4,000 pages since there are also bots that remove some of these. Moroever, this was one by Yobot for 7 years or so. -- Magioladitis (talk) 18:18, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks, is there a reason this wouldn't be appropriate work for a bot to (to avoid lots of watchlist hits)? — xaosflux Talk 18:40, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- Xaosflux Yes, it can be done by Yobot. Some cases need manual attention though when it comes to non-breaking spaces. I will agree this is is done by Yobot and leave less than 100 edits to be done manually. -- Magioladitis (talk) 19:13, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- So why do you want to make these thousands of edits by hand, triggering watchlist notifications, instead of doing this with a bot account? I understand the minority that will need special editing, is the problem that they can't be filtered out? — xaosflux Talk 23:04, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- Xaosflux I can do them by bot if I asked. -- Magioladitis (talk) 06:16, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- Xaosflux Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Yobot 55. -- Magioladitis (talk) 06:25, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- So why do you want to make these thousands of edits by hand, triggering watchlist notifications, instead of doing this with a bot account? I understand the minority that will need special editing, is the problem that they can't be filtered out? — xaosflux Talk 23:04, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
Support- I see no harm in Magioladitis performing the requested edits. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:12, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- Given the latest, I've lost all faith that Magioladitis gets it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:59, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
- Beyond My Ken Per ArbCom I have to ask permission to do changes that do not change the visual outcome, I have no restictions to make any other changes. Connecting the two kinds of edits it's interesting.-- Magioladitis (talk) 20:10, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
- I'm not connecting the "two kinds of edits", I'm connecting the one kind of behavior on your part in both discussions. To answer the question you originally posted here before you changed it, "Why did [I] expect?" - I expected an editor of your experience and length of time here, an administrator no less, to understand what they're being told, and not to Wikilawyer every goddamned thing that comes down the pike. That complaints keep coming, and that you attempt to talk your way out of them is one of your big problems, and the reason I changed my !vote here. (And, BTW, please don't send me any more sarcastic "Thanks for your edit" notifications, they are not wanted or appreciated, and, again, are an instance of un-adminlike behavior on your part.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:16, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
- Beyond My Ken I appreciate any comment that will help us understand the problem and solve it. So, would you still be OK with a bot task Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Yobot 55? Is the problem the edit from my main account? Is the problem that the edit does not change the visual outcome? Would you be OK if another editor or bot peform these edits? If for example I ask someone else to do these edits, that would be OK? Thanks again and happy editing!-- Magioladitis (talk)
- That response is typical. You attempt to gaslight your way out of a discussion which is not about the technicalities of your request, but about your behavior, and your apparent inability to understand that your tether is getting thinner and thinner. You are damn near exhausting the patience of the general community, and from the recent discussions, you seem to have already run out of it in the community of your bot-running peers, the people who, one would think, would be behind you. These are the reasons I'm withdrawing my !vote (without, however, changing to "oppose", at least at this time). Do me a favor, please, and don't ping me again. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:33, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
- Who cares about me? I want the task to be done. I don't care if this is going to be another use or a bot or software that will disallow this characters to be entered (that was my proposal to MW programmers). So support the task and find someone to do it. -- Magioladitis (talk) 07:26, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
- Tentative support these are often changes that won't make very much differences, and will often be de-facto WP:COSMETICBOT, but there is an argument to be made that invisible characters are extremely editor unfriendly, and create headaches for when you're trying to fix things. If this is BRFA'd, I'd want a complete list of such characters affected, likely with each characters tested individually (this might affect non-English languages more). I'd reserve my final opinion on whether or not this is something that's actually needed after seeing what the effects would be. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:51, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- The list Regex: \u200E|\uFEFF|\u200B|\u2028|\u202A|\u202C|\u202D|\u202E|\u00AD can be removed. -- Magioladitis (talk) 18:18, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- Would those leave explicitely declared characters untouched, like in Zero-width space? Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:00, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- Headbomb Yes. Anything given explicitelly (by visible text or by templates) won't be touched. -- Magioladitis (talk) 20:45, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- Would those leave explicitely declared characters untouched, like in Zero-width space? Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:00, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- The list Regex: \u200E|\uFEFF|\u200B|\u2028|\u202A|\u202C|\u202D|\u202E|\u00AD can be removed. -- Magioladitis (talk) 18:18, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- Support. For one thing, they're not technically cosmetic, because when you're viewing the code, the end result is the same as what you started with. Moreover, we routinely have bots going around and doing this already at Commons (one of the more common ones is removing RTL markers from category texts), because as noted above, they can cause problems when editors don't realise that they're there. For example, run a search for "soft hyphen" at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 60. Or see the "Weird pipes display issue" section at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 102, which discusses the invisible Zero-width non-joiner character. And finally, the mere fact of Commons bots doing this long-term is a demonstration that a bot can do this; it's not a CONTEXTBOT situation. Nyttend (talk) 22:25, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- @Nyttend: Responding only to your first sentence, please read WP:COSMETICBOT. A cosmetics-only change is defined as one which does not affect the visually-rendered result of the page (and also doesn't affect accessibility issues). This is definitely a cosemtics-only change as defined by the policy. If the community wants to make an exception in this case, it can of course do that. ~ Rob13Talk 00:48, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- Without more detail on what is actually being proposed to be removed, and what the specific benefit is, I couldn't support. Hchc2009 (talk) 06:32, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- @Hchc2009: Invisible characters can cause unexpected issues. For instance, if you have a stray right-to-left marker, and you edit a page in AWB, if you press the right arrow to go right, you actually go left. But you don't know there's a right-to-left marker. Likewise, if you have a stray zero-width space, it can cause unwanted wordbreaks and copy-pasting issue. Nyttend's post above have more details on some of the specifics. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 09:33, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- Is the argument here that invisible characters are already banned from the Wiki, and that this is simply a question of how they're removed, or that we're proposing to ban them? Or that the proposal is to remove some invisible character? Hchc2009 (talk) 16:41, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
- Hchc2009 If possible we should replace all by the visible counter-parts. -- Magioladitis (talk) 19:09, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose If that many need to be done it can be done via a bot and BRFA. Otherwise any support will be used by mag to condone running a bot on his main account to make what may/or may not be purely cosmetic edits. Notice the caveats from the above editors 'can cause' not 'will cause'. Without a clearly defined list and the problems each edit causes, given his history, I suspect the reason this is here and not at BRFA is that a run removing thousands of invisible characters that may/may not cause problems would not pass. Send it to BRFA and let them decide. Its what its for. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:33, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- @Only in death: that... doesn't make sense. The point is to gauge the support for such a bot task. You can't say "I oppose, get bot approval" because bot approval is contingent on support for its task. Magioladitis is also required to advertise such tasks to AN when done semi-automatically. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 11:00, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- A BRFA (Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Yobot 55) has been opened for this now. As mentioned above there may be edge cases that need manual editing, but if most edits can be done via a structured bot job that alleviates my excessive watchlist hits concern above. — xaosflux Talk 11:08, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- Let me be blunter. BRFA is a venue specifically to vet large-scale edits that would be best suited to a BOT/Automated process. AN is a noticeboard that attracts a wide array of editors & admins who may not have knowledge of Mag's history, the contentiousness of edits like this, the 'fixes' mag is on a crusade to implement by any means possible. Any 'support' here is essentially (given Mag's unique interpretation of what is/is not allowed when making gen fixes) giving Mag carte blanche to make thousands of semi-automated (given the speed of his editing history, I heavily doubt the 'semi' there) edits of dubious usefulness from his main account. I would rather not open up the floodgates to someone who has multiple restrictions related to automated editing. So no, I oppose any attempt here to give him 'permission' to do something that would best be evaluated at BRFA. If he wants to run a bot, he can run a bot. If the condition/requirement of passing BRFA for the task is that he gain consensus here, then no, he has shown he has zero judgement in when to apply controversial edits like this, so it would still be oppose. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:10, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- @Only in death: BRFA is never where we assess consensus for a task. That is always kicked to another venue. In any event, this is getting a bit confused. Magioladitis, could you clarify whether you're seeking consensus for semi-automated or automated edits here? Those are rather different, and may elicit different levels of support. I'd be more likely to support a flagged bot doing this than semi-automated, although I don't know if I'd support either. ~ Rob13Talk 14:10, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- Sigh, if you want to be picky about the wording. BRFA is where you decide if a bot-task can go ahead. Which is the appropriate venue for this. If the decision to approve the task is reliant on the requester showing consensus exists to make the changes in the bot-task, and this is considered a valid place to gain that consensus, the answer would still be no from me as the above request is too vaguely worded and boils down to 'I want to remove invisible characters that may or may not affect the articles in some manner' and has not provided sufficient detail to show that a)they are needed, b)the articles in his list have been sufficiently identified to contain invisible characters that cause an actual problem. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:22, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- @Only in death: I think the main reason for this initially was that any semi-automated edit (bot account or main) needs to be approved via consensus here due to Magioladitis' ArbCom restriction. If you think that should be done at BRFA, you'd want to file at WP:ARCA, but the community has no direct control over venue on this. ~ Rob13Talk 14:47, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- Well in that case, if the scope of this request is to make semi-automated edits of no demonstrated need on his main account that affect thousands of articles... the answer is still no. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:29, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- @Only in death: I think the main reason for this initially was that any semi-automated edit (bot account or main) needs to be approved via consensus here due to Magioladitis' ArbCom restriction. If you think that should be done at BRFA, you'd want to file at WP:ARCA, but the community has no direct control over venue on this. ~ Rob13Talk 14:47, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) @BU Rob13: don't preclude that these could be done semi-automated, using a bot account - there is nothing wrong with that model in general and avoids flooding recent changes/watchlist. — xaosflux Talk 14:23, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- Sigh, if you want to be picky about the wording. BRFA is where you decide if a bot-task can go ahead. Which is the appropriate venue for this. If the decision to approve the task is reliant on the requester showing consensus exists to make the changes in the bot-task, and this is considered a valid place to gain that consensus, the answer would still be no from me as the above request is too vaguely worded and boils down to 'I want to remove invisible characters that may or may not affect the articles in some manner' and has not provided sufficient detail to show that a)they are needed, b)the articles in his list have been sufficiently identified to contain invisible characters that cause an actual problem. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:22, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- @Only in death: BRFA is never where we assess consensus for a task. That is always kicked to another venue. In any event, this is getting a bit confused. Magioladitis, could you clarify whether you're seeking consensus for semi-automated or automated edits here? Those are rather different, and may elicit different levels of support. I'd be more likely to support a flagged bot doing this than semi-automated, although I don't know if I'd support either. ~ Rob13Talk 14:10, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
Xaosflux I would like to do this in automated way but also use my account for some cases because I would like to check some edits to avoid any mistakes. For instance, AWB can't remove an indivisible character if this is the only edit done. I don't wish to reply to RU Rob13 because he already said he'll stay away from CHECKWIKI related tasks. -- Magioladitis (talk) 16:39, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- Just for clarity (and I will not reply further on this topic), I recused from handling CHECKWIKI bot tasks as a BAG member while explicitly stating I may comment as a normal editor. I've never stated I would "stay away from CHECKWIKI related tasks". ~ Rob13Talk 23:28, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
- Support Above someone suggested that invisible characters are only important when they break url, links and the like. It's worth noting that they also break searching, to varying degrees. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 18:09, 30 June 2017 (UTC).
- Oppose 3,000 – 4,000 pages? No, if this task is to be done, it should be done through a bot-flagged account. —DoRD (talk) 02:39, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose per DoRD. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:27, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
- Beyond My Ken Can you please confrim that the oppose is only on the "from a normal account" part? -- Magioladitis (talk) 16:14, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- Confirmed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:23, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Conditional Support I think removing these invisible characters would be a positive thing, and nobody has shown that there's any potential to harm any pages. I do have concerns about using Mag's personal account, due to the Watchlist spam potential mentioned above. However, I think Yobot doing this task through BRFA at a reasonable rate (with Mag manually handling the few the need individual attention) is perfectly fine. I believe overriding COSMETICBOT is justified here. The WordsmithTalk to me 16:21, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
- Support task, oppose implementation: I take the view that hidden characters can cause problems in urls, editing and other accessibility problems. Therefore, fixing these is a task that is a) should be done and b) suitable for a bot. However, this proposal was suggesting that this would be done on Magio's user account. Editing 3000+ pages on a user account in an automated way will clog watchlists and is far more suited for a bot task. Done sensibly on a bot account and I have no opposition to the task. TheMagikCow (T) (C) 10:18, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- TheMagikCow, User:The Wordsmith I can do this task from Yobot's account. -- Magioladitis (talk) 16:15, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- Magioladitis. We know this can be done from Yobot's account. So, are these (proposed) edits going to be done from Yobot's account (and only and exclusively so)? —Sladen (talk) 17:35, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- Sladen If the consensus is "bot account only" I am doing from there. If the consensus "you may also use your normal account", I'll use both ;) -- Magioladitis (talk) 17:43, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- Support the task. @Magioladitis:, as far as I know there is no restriction/policy that says that a bot account can't be used for some occasional 'manual' edits to supplement a bot-task (as long as they fall (strictly) under the same approved BRFA and that there is consensus for the edits). Heck, for me, if you have the necessary approvals to perform a task, and you want to use the bot account to do 4000 repetitive edits completely manual, why not? --Dirk Beetstra T C 17:36, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- Commenting only on the policy generally, a bot account can be approved to do manual edits of a certain type, but a bot operator cannot merely start doing manual edits from their bot account claiming that they "supplement" an existing bot task. A bot task is approval for a specific thing, not a broad category of things (generally - there are some exceptions which would be noted in each BRFA). ~ Rob13Talk 01:47, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- @BU Rob13: Hence my '..(as long as they fall (strictly) under the same approved BRFA ..'). Basically, you do the task the bot is approved for, but check every edit manually. --Dirk Beetstra T C 03:52, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Commenting only on the policy generally, a bot account can be approved to do manual edits of a certain type, but a bot operator cannot merely start doing manual edits from their bot account claiming that they "supplement" an existing bot task. A bot task is approval for a specific thing, not a broad category of things (generally - there are some exceptions which would be noted in each BRFA). ~ Rob13Talk 01:47, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
Mad7744
I've been working User:MusikBot/StaleDrafts/Report looking for unsuitable pages, but hundreds of very short military bios all created by User:Mad7744 form a good chunk of the entries. Many follow set text like these recent creations Draft:Manuel R. Zabala Draft:Robert H. Thompson Draft:Walter G. Amerman Draft:Frank E. Palo Jr.. It seems like these names would be best presented on a list together because at least these subjects won an award. Other very old drafts do not even assert anything but that the subject was a solder or airman - Draft:Richard Drucks Draft:Andreas Zink Draft:Alfred Zuner etc. etc. etc.
Previous attempts to stop this activity have not worked. See examples User_talk:Mad7744 User_talk:Mad7744/Archive_1 User_talk:Mad7744/Archive_2 User_talk:Mad7744/Archive_1#Military_biography_articles, User_talk:Mad7744/Archive_1#Notability_of_subjects_.28reminder.29, User_talk:Mad7744/Archive_1#Military_biographies, and an earlier ANi I started [4] User_talk:Mad7744/Archive_1#ANi_Discussion that lead to this post User_talk:Mad7744/Archive_1#Freeloading to his talk page over a year ago:
- Freeloading
- There is a rule that articles in draft: space which have an -AfC submission- tag may be deleted if they have not been touched for more than six months. Unfortunately there is no rule for articles in that space without the tag but I think that the same rule should apply. Now you have a massive number of such articles. I have put in User:Mad7744/drafts a list of the 499 oldest of them. Another view is that you could be considered to be using Wikipedia as a free host - 88.8% of your edits are in draft space.
- I want to see a concerted move by you to either request the deletion of these drafts or improve them to article status and get them submitted for approval for mainspace. I note that they survived this recent discussion but If changes do not happen within the next few months, I shall propose a bulk deletion of your drafts. (Legacypac please note.) — User:RHaworth 15:48, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
I can't see any effort by the user to address these concerns All the deletions I checked were initiated by other users and I did not find any promotions in my spot checks. User has never touched their talk page [5] so not sure how to communicate with them. The majority of their mainspace creations have been deleted, they stopped using AfC so G13 does not apply to their drafts, and the drafts just keep piling up.
I hate to suggest this but... I propose an editing BLOCK to get their attention, stop the daily creation of more drafts, and prompt a dialog on their talk page. I also suggest we give consideration to User:RHaworth's proposal for bulk deleting these drafts without having to subject each one individually to MfD. Pushing this many drafts through AfC submission or MfD debates is going to be a whole lot of work otherwise. Legacypac (talk) 17:40, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
UPDATE: He responded on his talk page [6] with "You can delete every draft article I have made up to November 9th, 2015 but do not delete any draft articles beyond that date. Mad7744 (talk) 20:19, 2 July 2017 (UTC)" That covers close to 1000 pages [7] assuming none are now redirects. Please don't make me CSD them all individually! Legacypac (talk) 20:38, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
- Working on it. —Cryptic 21:04, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
- I believe that the two IPs below belong to the same user, as they've been creating and editing same drafts:
- Special:Contributions/98.229.53.195
- Special:Contributions/73.186.114.106
- I believe that the two IPs below belong to the same user, as they've been creating and editing same drafts:
- I suggest that the drafts older than 6 months created by the IPs be included in the group deletion as well. K.e.coffman (talk) 21:44, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
- Should be everything. I came to the same conclusion with 98.229.53.195; 73.186.114.106 had no edits surviving in Draft:. —Cryptic 22:48, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
- I suggest that the drafts older than 6 months created by the IPs be included in the group deletion as well. K.e.coffman (talk) 21:44, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
There is good reason that non-draft-tagged pages be not subject to G13 — they're not necessarily drafts. There's no bright-line way to judge whether one be a draft or not. If you want to see these pages be deleted, take them to MFD; this isn't the place for a deletion discussion. Nyttend (talk) 23:22, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
- Two archive pages and a talk page worth have already been deleted via MfD or CSD one at a time. That creates very good precedent to deal with these in bulk, and I also brought this here to figure out a way to prevent continued creations. I've asked more questions on his talk and hope to get a response. My note about this report and a possible BLOCK finally got his attention today. Legacypac (talk) 23:32, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
- This may be some sort of WP:ADVOCACY. See, for example, the "Category:German soldiers" as edited by one of the IPs: [8]. Note the suggestion that " All these pages don't exist. To see information on them,click on the page go and click on the talk page on the top left hand corner." I'm not sure what the purpose is, but 95%+ of these drafts are on subjects that do not meet WP:SOLDIER. For example, the qualifying award for U.S. servicemen would be the Medal of Honor; Distinguished Service Cross does not really help establish their notability. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:05, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- he just says he's going to update them. Cryptic just deleted about a 1000 pages and there must be at least as many again (about 1500 it turns out). Many are low rank Nazi German solders, holocast victums, and American privates. Is the goal to cover every WWII participant/victim with a Draft page? I'm not understanding the modivation to do all this work over 3 years now. It's not like the business spam or autobio pages These subjects are all dead. Legacypac (talk) 00:28, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- This may be some sort of WP:ADVOCACY. See, for example, the "Category:German soldiers" as edited by one of the IPs: [8]. Note the suggestion that " All these pages don't exist. To see information on them,click on the page go and click on the talk page on the top left hand corner." I'm not sure what the purpose is, but 95%+ of these drafts are on subjects that do not meet WP:SOLDIER. For example, the qualifying award for U.S. servicemen would be the Medal of Honor; Distinguished Service Cross does not really help establish their notability. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:05, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- "There is good reason that non-draft-tagged pages be not subject to G13 — they're not necessarily drafts. There's no bright-line way to judge whether one be a draft or not."This is clearly down the road of nonsense/madness, when words no longer mean what they mean. DraftSpace should be *only* for drafts. If it is not a draft, get it out of DraftSpace. Userfy, ProjectSpace, or Delete. I am definitely moving to the position that everything in DraftSpace should be subject to CSD#G13. (I am approaching the position that DraftSpace as a whole should be WP:CSD#G2-ed, as a failed test, more work than it is worth, the best thing said about it is that is draws crap page dumps away from mainspace but that's at the expense of an extremely poor editor experience for the newcomers) --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:20, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
Proposed Restriction
I tend to have slightly esoteric viewpoints regarding bulk creations in Draft space. I feel (in order to reduce the disruption) that No page shall be created in userspace or draftspace by Mad7744 that does not have an AFC review template on it. No page created under this restriction shall be removed from AFC review until such time that this restricton is successfully appealed. The goal is to have these pages be improved and promoted to mainspace. Draft space is supposed to be getting pages ready for mainspace, not a semi-elastic storage. Reviewers are pretty good about being able to tell which submissions have hope, and which ones should be put out to pasture. Hasteur (talk) 21:23, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- Support sounds like a good plan. I also think we should submit some more drafts to deletion discussion in batches. Legacypac (talk) 21:34, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- Looking back at my comment, obviously if a page gets promoted to mainspace the AFC review template is no longer valid because it's been promoted to mainspace. Not going to disclaim the WP:BEANS situation as there's already proposals and common sense in place for that. cc Legacypac Hasteur (talk) 21:40, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
- Support restrictions. In addition, I propose that drafts older than 6 months be group deleted. I did a spot check and none would meet WP:SOLDIER or any other notability guideline or essay. K.e.coffman (talk) 21:48, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
bulk deletion plan
- he recently posted on his talk page a comment that we can delete, improve or whatever we want and he is essentially quitting for now. I'm willing to take that as consent to bulk delete if an Admin will take on the big task. User:Cryptic? Axe any Draft without a credible claim that gets it past WP:SOLDIER regardless of age? Efforts to deal with this go back 3 years and finally headway. Let's not let this chance pass by. Legacypac (talk) 21:55, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
- Admin User:Maile66 accepted that CSD Hasteur. There are almost 1500 more drafts to go according to [11]. Legacypac (talk) 02:48, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
- Legacypac Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:Rudolf Schicketanz as the year 2014 bulking launched. I know it's a bit creative way to do the deletion, but I think we can agree to not flood the user's talkpage with 1500 CSD nominations. Breaking it down into monthly (or submonthly) categories will allow MFD to do it's job, but also keep the user talkpage spam down. Hasteur (talk) 03:09, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
- Still a lot of work to list 1500 pages at MfD and we don't really need MfD given we have author consent. I agree don't flood the guy's talk. Why not do one CSD for the entire list? Are you thinking we should check page by page before an Admin looks at it? Our spot checks and Cryptic's work show nothing that should be kept. If we can recruit an Admin, they could do this based on this thread. Legacypac (talk) 03:30, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
- Although unstated in my comment up above, my original idea was a mass MFD (remember that nominations don't have to be individual; you can always bundle them), or yes you could simply request G7s based on that comment from Mad7744. Why would we be adding a lot of CSD nominations to the talk page? If you're thinking of using some sort of semiautomated tagging process that leaves a talk-page note, let me know; I could full-protect his talk page immediately before you start and then unprotect it as soon as you're done, thus keeping his talk page clear. Nyttend (talk) 11:36, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
- Still a lot of work to list 1500 pages at MfD and we don't really need MfD given we have author consent. I agree don't flood the guy's talk. Why not do one CSD for the entire list? Are you thinking we should check page by page before an Admin looks at it? Our spot checks and Cryptic's work show nothing that should be kept. If we can recruit an Admin, they could do this based on this thread. Legacypac (talk) 03:30, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
I've commenced working from the back of the list and doing the CSD nominations by "month/year" grouping so as to not overflow the CSD buckets. G7 doesn't drop a talk page notice, so that's good and I've updated my twinkle preferences to not add them to my internal CSD log. Hasteur (talk) 13:46, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
- @BU Rob13: User:BU Rob13 this situation would be a good use of your script. Delete all Draft space creations still existing by this user (maybe up to 1500 pages). Legacypac (talk) 23:36, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- yes wack everything they created in Draft space. No one has found anything yet worth keeping. We got creator consent. Legacypac (talk) 22:24, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- @BU Rob13: There are a few redirects from draftspace to different namespaces that probably need to be kept. Hasteur (talk) 20:28, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- I am happy to take on the task of a bulk deletion. I cannot start immediately because my personal website where the necessary listing tool resides is currently "down". Bear with me - these pages have been there for years so there is no hurry. If you don't see progress within a month, complain bitterly. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 11:01, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- Wonderful. I'm not looking for them, but tagging them G7 with a link to here as I happen to find them. They still represent about 20% of abandoned drafts Legacypac (talk) 03:49, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (West Bank)
Recently, there has been some confusion on whether or not the 7 July 2017 UNESCO decision to list the Old Town of Hebron, specifically the Cave of the Patriarchs, as a World Heritage Site, can or cannot be listed in the main list of World Heritage Sites in Israel. I have proposed that it be listed there, while other co-editors have disagreed with me. Wikipedia policies outlined in WP:Naming conventions (West Bank) do not specifically deal with the historical/geographical aspects of sites in the West Bank and which places were, in antiquity, called by different names. For example, the geographical place known as the "Land of Israel" is also a country historically defined as such in the Midrash and Mishnah (compiled in 189 CE). Saying that a place (Hebron) is in the Land of Canaan, Judea, Palestine, the Land of Israel, the Holy Land, or whatever, is NOT necessarily a political statement, as it is a historical statement. It just so happens that the Government of Israel calls the country by its historical name. Had the Wikipedia article, "World Heritage Sites in Israel," been titled "World Heritage Sites in the State of Israel," the resentment in having Hebron or the Cave of the Patriarchs listed there may have held up, insofar as that is disputed. But, historically, there is no dispute whatsoever about its historical connections to these geographical names. If UNESCO wanted to politicize something, as in the recent case involving Hebron (see: UNESCO puts Hebron on endangered heritage list, outraging Israel), does that mean that we, on Wikipedia, must also politicize the same thing? Of course not! Please clarify Wikipedia's policy in WP:Naming conventions (West Bank) with respect to the use of geographical names used in antiquity, and which are NOT meant to offend any ethnic group, per se, but only mention its historical context.Davidbena (talk) 22:27, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- I think in general to avoid conflict, both categories can be added. So if there's a CAT for Palestine Heritage, you can also have one for Israel heritage, which I added. Also, in general the only people to use categories are editors involved, I don't think any reader ever uses these. Sir Joseph (talk) 16:13, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- I would also agree to that. The use of the category, "World Heritage Sites in Israel", is still valid with respect to the Cave of the Patriarchs and/or the Old Town of Hebron for the simple reason that its being designated as a World Heritage Site is irrelevant of the country, seeing that the identification of the place itself is undisputed, although the UNESCO board members have opted to take a political stand by not calling the country of its location "Israel," using instead the word "Palestine." The name of the country is disputed merely on political grounds, but should not have any legal bearing on making mention of the country based on its accepted use and understanding, broadly construed. By "broadly construed" I mean that "Israel" and "Palestine" are one and the same country, the one word used in place of the other by Jews and by Arabs.Davidbena (talk) 01:53, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
- I disagree. UNESCO did not accidentally call it a "Palestinian World Heritage Site" — and it is not Wikipedia's place to insert itself into the controversy and revise it based on editorial POV. For example, let's conisder the argument above:
- "The name of the country is disputed merely on political grounds, but should not have any legal bearing on making mention of the country based on its accepted use and understanding, broadly construed. By "broadly construed" I mean that "Israel" and "Palestine" are one and the same country"
- "it is a historical statement. It just so happens that the Government of Israel calls the country by its historical name. Had the Wikipedia article, "World Heritage Sites in Israel," been titled "World Heritage Sites in the State of Israel," the resentment in having Hebron or the Cave of the Patriarchs listed there may have held up, insofar as that is disputed. But, historically, there is no dispute whatsoever about its historical connections to these geographical names."
- I disagree. UNESCO did not accidentally call it a "Palestinian World Heritage Site" — and it is not Wikipedia's place to insert itself into the controversy and revise it based on editorial POV. For example, let's conisder the argument above:
- Following the above logic should we also add it to "World Heritage sites in the Ottoman Empire"? Probably not right? I don't think the UNESCO classification is meant to refer to "historical territories" (in which case, we would have to add it "World Heritage sites in the Ottoman Empire" or "World Heritage sites in the Kingdom of Jerusalem" or "World Heritage sites in the Roman Empire" (since Israel was "erased from the map by the Romans" as is so often pointed out, though no maps existed at this time, aside from a stone Babylonian tablet that depicted Babylon as the center of the world.) So to the point, its fairly obvious that UNESCO doesn't classify sites based on where they existed historically, but rather where they exist in terms of modern geographical boundaries. So, no, absolutely not, and I recommend other editors become involved in this discussion to make sure Wikipedia is not used as a platform for this kind of personal advocacy. Seraphim System (talk) 02:36, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
- I would also agree to that. The use of the category, "World Heritage Sites in Israel", is still valid with respect to the Cave of the Patriarchs and/or the Old Town of Hebron for the simple reason that its being designated as a World Heritage Site is irrelevant of the country, seeing that the identification of the place itself is undisputed, although the UNESCO board members have opted to take a political stand by not calling the country of its location "Israel," using instead the word "Palestine." The name of the country is disputed merely on political grounds, but should not have any legal bearing on making mention of the country based on its accepted use and understanding, broadly construed. By "broadly construed" I mean that "Israel" and "Palestine" are one and the same country, the one word used in place of the other by Jews and by Arabs.Davidbena (talk) 01:53, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
The tag Category:World Heritage Sites in Israel was recently added to Cave of the Patriarchs. I removed it, and there is now a discussion fork on this topic underway at Talk:Cave of the Patriarchs#Categorisation with respect to status as World Heritage Site. Snuge purveyor (talk) 07:52, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
PROPOSAL: Since, as far as historical topography is concerned, no juridical legitimacy or anything "binding" can be ascribed to UNESCO's decision of 7 July 2017 to mention the Old Town of Hebron (the Cave of the Patriarchs) as a World Heritage Site in Palestine, anymore than its decision earlier (in 2001) to mention the fortress Masada as a World Heritage Site in Israel, as you can see here: UNESCO World Heritage Sites in Israel, although both places are located in the so-called "West Bank" captured by Israel in 1967 (or what some hope to be the future State of Palestine). UNESCO's use of nomenclature in this most recent matter is based purely upon political motives. However, in terms of Wikipedia's recognition of this unresolved border dispute, or its leaning towards any one side in the Arab-Israeli conflict, let it be resolved that we, as neutral observers, steer clear from taking any political stand, but maintain a neutral point of view, in accordance with WP:NPOV and WP:IMPARTIAL. In consideration of which, it is here proposed that the following disclaimer be appended to the Wikipedia pages broadly construed with the Arab-Israeli conflict, namely, that an asterisk (*) be placed after the word "Israel" in the category known as "World Heritage Sites in Israel," with a reference to the effect that the proper name "Israel" is used here apolitically, that is, as a geographical/historical toponym, often used in the same sense that "Palestine" is used, and whose recognized borders may actually be disputed; or vice-versa, the proper name "Palestine" is used here apolitically, etc. This may bring some succor to this complex and troubling issue.Davidbena (talk) 13:30, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
- Madame chairwoman! Madame chairwoman! I rise to a point of order!! Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:45, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
- SIMPLIFIED REVISED PROPOSAL: As per Wikipedia's recognition of the unresolved border dispute between Israelis and Palestinians, or its leaning towards any one side in the Arab-Israeli conflict, let it be resolved that we, as neutral observers, steer clear from taking any political stand, but maintain a neutral point of view, in accordance with WP:NPOV and WP:IMPARTIAL. In consideration of which, it is here proposed that the following disclaimer be appended to the Wikipedia pages broadly construed with the Arab-Israeli conflict, namely, that an asterisk (*) be placed after the word "Israel" in the category known as "World Heritage Sites in Israel," with a reference to the effect that the proper name "Israel" is used here apolitically, that is, as a geographical/historical toponym, often used in the same sense that "Palestine" is used, and whose recognized borders may actually be disputed; or vice-versa, the proper name "Palestine" is used here apolitically, etc. This may bring some succor to this complex and troubling issue.
- My contention is that you cannot call half of the country "Palestine" and half of the country "Israel," when both toponyms were used for ONE and THE SAME country. Besides, it was the British who first proposed dividing the country in 1937, and which proposal eventually led to a war between Jews and Arabs, each trying to gain as much control of the country as possible. As far as borders are concerned, nothing has been resolved between the two parties in this dispute ---- a dispute, mind you, which I call one of the great "political intrigues" of the 21st century! Davidbena (talk) 19:52, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
- Your definition of NPOV is odd, to say the least. I agree with Seraphim above: we should call it what UNESCO calls it. The insertion of asterisks and argumentation is saying that we have more authority to name these sites than UNESCO does, which is patently ridiculous. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:24, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
@Beyond My Ken: editors have been "politicizing" the situation since who-knows-when. But why do you insist on politicizing the situation when it negates Wikipedia's stated policy? As you can see here, the Israeli objection to calling regions of the country by two names - the one "Palestine" and the other "Israel" - based on political motives, or more precisely, on the now defunct 1949 Armistice Agreement between Israel and Jordan, is what we are dealing with here. (For the 1949 Armistice Agreement between Israel and Jordan, see discussion here [Green Line]). Israelis view the entire country as one, but to give two separate names for two regions of the country is inherently wrong and is based on perpetuating an errant political stand taken by the British in 1937 who sought to divide the country. Moreover, the 1949 Armistice Agreement is no longer binding. While some might refuse to recognize Israel's de facto claims and hold of this territory, hoping to return to the pre-1967 border, the reality is such that the entire country is called "Israel" by the Israelis who live here. What's more, in a broader sense, the country's historical and geographical names have never changed, whether Palestine or the Land of Israel. So, I object to your claim that UNESCO has got more authority than do editors here on Wikipedia who have looked at all the facts. Are you saying that UNESCO's decision to mention Hebron as being in "Palestine" was not politically motivated? As for Wikipedia's naming conventions, the issue has not been satisfactorily addressed. My proposal is to leave the "West Bank" just as it is (since it only describes a geographical region that once divided positions held by Israel and Jordan), but to add a disclaimer there, stating to the effect that Wikipedia's use of the words "Palestine" and/or "Israel" are meant to be understood apolitically, and as purely geographical-historical terms used in antiquity. In this manner, we steer clear from politicizing the situation. Whenever editors mention "Israel" and their intent is to describe a political case involving the State of Israel, or the Government of Israel, the words "State of Israel" or "Government of Israel" should preface their editorial entry. Be well.Davidbena (talk) 06:46, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- Your wall of text doesn't interest me in the least. Our naming convention can be simply stated: we call things by their common names whenever possible. If you're taking the position that when UNESCO names a UNESCO World Heritage Site, it doesn't create the common name for that UNESCO WOrld Heritage Site, and we should look instead to what other non-UNESCO entities call it, then your position is extremely foolish and does not deserve any serious attention. Certainly, it's not going to get any more from me. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:39, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- I see no potential justification for Beyond My Ken's argument. "Israel" and "Palestine" are not part of UNESCO's name of the site, but only of the list UNESCO assigns it to. As List of World Heritage Sites in Israel includes sites not (yet) designated by UNESCO, but with a tentative designation by the State of Israel, it would be absurd to move a site based on UNESCO's choice of country. After all, it's a World Heritage Site, not an Israeli or Palestinian Heritage Site. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:36, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- Let me get this straight, Arthur Rubin, you see no justification for using UNESCO's name for a UNESCO World Heritage Site. Is that correct? Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:11, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- It should be remembered that UNESCO has an overwhelming Arab membership, those who may have some slight "bias" in their country designation for Hebron, a place, mind you, under Israeli control, and where Jewish towns have sprung-up as in former times, where there was once a large Jewish population before being evicted. I think that Arthur Rubin's point is clear, namely, that when institutions like UNESCO dispute with the Government of Israel who controls the site, this is where maintaining our neutrality should step-in. After all, why do we have WP:NPOV, if not to be upheld in these cases?Davidbena (talk) 18:04, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- So you're saying that the 13 Arab nations which are member states of UNESCO completely dominate the other 137 nations which are members, despite being outnumbered 10.5-to-1, and that's not to mention the 10 Associate Members? [12]. Davidbena, you're throwing a lot of baloney around, and it appears your motivation is not to uphold our naming conventions, it is to win a picayune "victory" for Israel over Palestine. That, Davidbena, is violating WP:NPOV, in case you were wondering.(And yes, Davidbena, I'd be saying precisely the same thing to an editor who was trying to win such a "victory" for Palestine over Israel. I'm actually a very strong supporter of the right of Israel to exist and to be safe within its borders, although I'm far from pleased with their policies regarding the West Bank. You see, one can criticize Israel and not be antisemitic or pro-Palestinian. I think both sides have behaved terribly, and neither has done much to help craft a solution to a terrifically complex problem.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:14, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- @Beyond My Ken:, just for the record, what I meant to say is that Israel is vastly outnumbered by the Arab States in the UN and at UNESCO, who can often sway the balance in any vote.Davidbena (talk) 18:37, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- So you're saying that the 13 Arab nations which are member states of UNESCO completely dominate the other 137 nations which are members, despite being outnumbered 10.5-to-1, and that's not to mention the 10 Associate Members? [12]. Davidbena, you're throwing a lot of baloney around, and it appears your motivation is not to uphold our naming conventions, it is to win a picayune "victory" for Israel over Palestine. That, Davidbena, is violating WP:NPOV, in case you were wondering.(And yes, Davidbena, I'd be saying precisely the same thing to an editor who was trying to win such a "victory" for Palestine over Israel. I'm actually a very strong supporter of the right of Israel to exist and to be safe within its borders, although I'm far from pleased with their policies regarding the West Bank. You see, one can criticize Israel and not be antisemitic or pro-Palestinian. I think both sides have behaved terribly, and neither has done much to help craft a solution to a terrifically complex problem.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:14, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- It appears that "Palestine" is not part of UNESCO's name of the site. Even if it were, we need to decide which lists and categories it belongs in. As it stands, if Hebron were excluded, we would need to take Category:World Heritage Sites in Israel and List of World Heritage Sites in Israel out of the Category:Israel hierarchy. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:05, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- The UNESCO name for the site is "Hebron/Al-Khalil Old Town" and it lists the country it is in as "Palestine". [13]. As long as "Hebron/Al-Khalil Old Town" is use as our name for the site, I don't see any real reason it can't be listed in both Israel and Palestine categories, since both claim the territory. However, the article itself should describe is as being listed as in Palestine, although the Israeli claim can be mentioned as well. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:34, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- I would like to disagree with BMK here. The WP article on Hebron indicates clearly, both in the text and in its categories, that Hebron is part of contemporary Palestine and not part of contemporary Israel (although of course it is significant to Jewish history). I don't see any reason why articles on World Heritage Sites in Hebron should be classified differently by country than is the town itself, particularly since in literally all other cases the WP lists of world heritage sites by country follow contemporary national boundaries. Newimpartial (talk) 21:57, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- How many other UNESCO World Heritage Sites are located in a place which is claimed by more than one country? (That's a serious question, I don't know and would like to find out whether this case is sui generis or not.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:51, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- BMK, in addition to the Hebron site, Battir and Church of the Nativity are in Palestine / claimed by Israel. I know there are zero World Heritage Sites in Taiwan. Unsure about other disputed areas. Snuge purveyor (talk) 23:19, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks. Then perhaps those two sites should be used as models for how the new site should be categorized. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:22, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- Looking through our encyclopaedia, I've also found that the site Chersonesus is claimed by both Ukraine and Russia. Our infobox on that page does not list a state party, but it is listed in Category:World Heritage Sites in Ukraine, as this was the original designation by UNESCO and they are maintaining it. Snuge purveyor (talk) 23:26, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- The Mughal Gardens in Kashmir are in territory claimed by India and Pakistan (but administered by India); heritage sites in Tibet would also classify as "disputed" and the declaration of the Hoh Xil region last week was particularly contentious from this point of view. Currently WP does not list the new site among the World Heritage Sites in Tibet (it is in Tibet, and straddles the border between the Tibet autonomous region and the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of China). The sites in Lhasa, designated as the "Historic Ensemble of the Potala Palace", are currently listed on WP as "UNESCO World Heritage Sites in Tibet" which is a nested subcategory of "UNESCO World Heritage Sites in China", for what that's worth. As far as I know, UNESCO itself recognizes the Kashmir site as part of India and the Tibet sites as part of China. Newimpartial (talk) 06:23, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- Looking through our encyclopaedia, I've also found that the site Chersonesus is claimed by both Ukraine and Russia. Our infobox on that page does not list a state party, but it is listed in Category:World Heritage Sites in Ukraine, as this was the original designation by UNESCO and they are maintaining it. Snuge purveyor (talk) 23:26, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks. Then perhaps those two sites should be used as models for how the new site should be categorized. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:22, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- BMK, in addition to the Hebron site, Battir and Church of the Nativity are in Palestine / claimed by Israel. I know there are zero World Heritage Sites in Taiwan. Unsure about other disputed areas. Snuge purveyor (talk) 23:19, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- How many other UNESCO World Heritage Sites are located in a place which is claimed by more than one country? (That's a serious question, I don't know and would like to find out whether this case is sui generis or not.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:51, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- I would like to disagree with BMK here. The WP article on Hebron indicates clearly, both in the text and in its categories, that Hebron is part of contemporary Palestine and not part of contemporary Israel (although of course it is significant to Jewish history). I don't see any reason why articles on World Heritage Sites in Hebron should be classified differently by country than is the town itself, particularly since in literally all other cases the WP lists of world heritage sites by country follow contemporary national boundaries. Newimpartial (talk) 21:57, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- The UNESCO name for the site is "Hebron/Al-Khalil Old Town" and it lists the country it is in as "Palestine". [13]. As long as "Hebron/Al-Khalil Old Town" is use as our name for the site, I don't see any real reason it can't be listed in both Israel and Palestine categories, since both claim the territory. However, the article itself should describe is as being listed as in Palestine, although the Israeli claim can be mentioned as well. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:34, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- It should be remembered that UNESCO has an overwhelming Arab membership, those who may have some slight "bias" in their country designation for Hebron, a place, mind you, under Israeli control, and where Jewish towns have sprung-up as in former times, where there was once a large Jewish population before being evicted. I think that Arthur Rubin's point is clear, namely, that when institutions like UNESCO dispute with the Government of Israel who controls the site, this is where maintaining our neutrality should step-in. After all, why do we have WP:NPOV, if not to be upheld in these cases?Davidbena (talk) 18:04, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- Let me get this straight, Arthur Rubin, you see no justification for using UNESCO's name for a UNESCO World Heritage Site. Is that correct? Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:11, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- I see no potential justification for Beyond My Ken's argument. "Israel" and "Palestine" are not part of UNESCO's name of the site, but only of the list UNESCO assigns it to. As List of World Heritage Sites in Israel includes sites not (yet) designated by UNESCO, but with a tentative designation by the State of Israel, it would be absurd to move a site based on UNESCO's choice of country. After all, it's a World Heritage Site, not an Israeli or Palestinian Heritage Site. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:36, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
I have posted a response to this conversation here. Snuge purveyor (talk) 21:10, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
There is falsehood being used as an argument here that must be corrected. If you look at Israel's response to the Hebron listing, for example here and here (these examples chosen by Davidbena), what you will find is statements like "the move negated the deep Jewish ties to the biblical town and its ancient shrine" and "Israel will present to the world the historical truth and the Jewish People's deep connection—of thousands of years—to Hebron" and similar. What you don't find there is a claim that Hebron lies in the modern state of Israel. That's because Israel has never taken steps to annex the site and on the contrary operates a military government there based in the international law of occupation. This is not a place which is claimed as sovereign territory by two nations, so all arguments based on that assumption have to be set aside. In summary, "World Heritage Site in Israel" is false because it is not in Israel. It would be beyond absurd to add a category that makes a claim even beyond Israel's own claim. Israel's objection to the UNESCO listing should be mentioned in the article, but we are not supposed to use categories as a way of promoting fringe opinions on a dispute. Zerotalk 10:51, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- @Zero0000:, a colleague on the Cave of the Patriarchs Talk-Page has suggested a good solution (see here), and that is to rename the category to read: List of World Heritage Sites in Disputed Territories. This seems to be the most compromising thing that we can do under the current circumstances. Anyway, my own suggestions have not gained much ground here. (As for why Israel has not "formally annexed" the Hebron region is simple to understand. The international and public outcry which would ensue after such a declaration has prevented Israel from doing it on several occasions. Does this mean that Israel does not view the country as united as one nation and one country under the banner of the political State of Israel? Of course not! Israel still sees the country as one, insisting rather on "de facto annexation" of Hebron, rather than "de jure annexation," for the reason I mentioned above). Anyway, in the spirit of compromise, can we agree to change the category to read: "World Heritage Sites in Disputed Territories"? ---Davidbena (talk) 13:09, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- David, your facts are wrong and the "compromise" is not a compromise at all but rather a surrender to the Israeli fringe position. Zerotalk 20:40, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- Lol. Believe me that I am at ease with my conscience, knowing who is actually in control here. Nothing can be done in Hebron without the approbation of the Israeli government. As for Wikipedia, here we're trying to "paint" some civility into the overall "convoluted" picture. Let's hear what other editors have to say about the change of category to "World Heritage Sites in Disputed Territories."Davidbena (talk) 20:54, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think it would be particularly useful as a category. Seraphim System (talk) 21:30, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- Lol. Believe me that I am at ease with my conscience, knowing who is actually in control here. Nothing can be done in Hebron without the approbation of the Israeli government. As for Wikipedia, here we're trying to "paint" some civility into the overall "convoluted" picture. Let's hear what other editors have to say about the change of category to "World Heritage Sites in Disputed Territories."Davidbena (talk) 20:54, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- The solution propososed just above by Davidbena is to use a new category: List of World Heritage Sites in Disputed Territories. That category would more accurately be titled
List of World Heritage Sites in Territories disputed by Wikipedia editors
. Johnuniq (talk) 23:36, 17 July 2017 (UTC)- That could end up being a much longer list, couldn't it? If people go back to "historical" assertions of belonging for heritage sites, the whole idea of discrete territoriality would be basically out the window. Newimpartial (talk) 23:42, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- Guys, you made me laugh here. So my suggestions, once more, have garnered no support. Fine. I have no qualms about that. Consensus is what matters here. On a lighter note, I have read where the Israeli Prime-Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, wants to build a museum near or adjacent to the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron so as to preserve the memorial of Jewish history on that site. Perhaps then we can discuss the name of the category such a museum would conjure up in our minds. Maybe, "The Israeli-built museums in Palestine." Wow, that for me would be like preserving the country's mediaeval namesake, which I'm perfectly fine with. Cheers!Davidbena (talk) 00:19, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- That could end up being a much longer list, couldn't it? If people go back to "historical" assertions of belonging for heritage sites, the whole idea of discrete territoriality would be basically out the window. Newimpartial (talk) 23:42, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- David, your facts are wrong and the "compromise" is not a compromise at all but rather a surrender to the Israeli fringe position. Zerotalk 20:40, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
Block review of Lopunny
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I blocked Lopunny (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for page move vandalism. However, I see I became aware of his vandalism because I reverted his revert of my revert of an IP's edit at 2002, so I might be considered WP:INVOLVED. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 05:37, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) Jumping immediately to a 1 week block for vandalism? Seeing some strange back and forth movements, but not a lot to immediately jump up to 1 week block. Also where is the escalating warning. Personally I think this a bit overreaction for the actions presented. Also remember the cooldown blocks aren't appropriate either. Hasteur (talk) 19:51, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- I don't know what cooldown blocks have to do with anything; this was certainly not a cooldown block. Anyway, if it had been me, since there's also a history of productive editing, I'd have probably pointedly asked them what was going on, and given them one final wakeup call before blocking. So I'd suggest unblocking, and replacing the block template with such a note. But vandalism isn't some minor infraction, it strikes at the heart of what we're trying to do here, and if this block had been placed by someone less involved with the editor, it would be on the aggressive side, but within the range of common practice. There's no need for an escalating series of blocks starting with 24 hours or anything, we block vandals indefinitely all the time. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:06, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Unblocked, now. The editor has a mixture of reasonably good edits, reverting vandalism, and adding vandalism. I was actually considering that the account may have been compromised, as this is a new type of vandalism, but he self-corrected the last page move. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:25, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- I was wondering the same thing, as they had some ok edits, then this vandalism, so I wondered if he was compromised (my little brother did it) or just goofing around and not realizing we take that seriously. It is a little unusual. I agree with Floq on the duration. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:03, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- Unblocked, now. The editor has a mixture of reasonably good edits, reverting vandalism, and adding vandalism. I was actually considering that the account may have been compromised, as this is a new type of vandalism, but he self-corrected the last page move. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:25, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- I don't know what cooldown blocks have to do with anything; this was certainly not a cooldown block. Anyway, if it had been me, since there's also a history of productive editing, I'd have probably pointedly asked them what was going on, and given them one final wakeup call before blocking. So I'd suggest unblocking, and replacing the block template with such a note. But vandalism isn't some minor infraction, it strikes at the heart of what we're trying to do here, and if this block had been placed by someone less involved with the editor, it would be on the aggressive side, but within the range of common practice. There's no need for an escalating series of blocks starting with 24 hours or anything, we block vandals indefinitely all the time. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:06, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Based on edits since the block was undone, I've reblocked indef. This is just a returning troll (admins can look at deleted contribs). --Floquenbeam (talk) 03:05, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- See also Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Final 5 Frenzy, which revolves around the pattern of page move vandalism at Portal:Current events/2016 April 14. Mz7 (talk) 07:24, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
NPP push
I am posting here to notify people that a push (to review articles) will occur on July 15. I invite anybody who is experienced in policy and patrolling to help. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:25, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- Just a note to remind people who might be requesting the New Page Reviewer right for the first time that reading the tutorial at WP:NPP before you request permission is highly encourage. Quality of patrols is emphasized over quantity. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at WT:NPR. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:38, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
Need determination of consensus
I'm not sure if this is the right place for this but we've had an RFC at Talk:Monarchy of Canada for the past month. A bot has just removed the RFC template as "expired" (see [14]) but no Admin has weighed in to make a determination on whether there or not there's consensus for the proposal. I'm wondering if an uninvolved admin can take a look and make a determination? Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 04:31, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
- Hello, Hungarian Phrasebook. You can also request a closure at WP:ANRFC if you want. --George Ho (talk) 04:34, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
- BTW, what to do with the whole thread, Hungarian Phrasebook? Leave as is or erase the whole thread? Please feel free to remove my replies if you wish. Thanks. --George Ho (talk) 05:10, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
Edit histories with revdelete
When doing a revision comparison, has anyone else noticed the new "Browse history" dropbox? Reason I am asking is that, if a version is revdeleted, you can still view the user name and edit summary in that dropdown box, even though said user name and edit summary have been hidden. You can't view the actual edit diff, thankfully. I presume this is a WMF issue, but... Feel free to move/forward this to a better place (it's not coming to me right now) per BEANS, and then revdelete this. It's OK, my user name and edit summaries are usually relatively safe... 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 21:16, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
- I was unable to replicate this. Can you confirm it works when logged out or logged in to a non-administrator account? Tazerdadog (talk) 23:11, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
- Same here - here is a sample page Sandbox33 - the info is only showing in the slider when logged in as an account with that access (e.g. admins) @78.26: if you have more info we can get a phab case open if this is a non-admin leak. — xaosflux Talk 23:31, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for checking into this. Indeed, the slider does not show the information when I am logged-out. I don't have a non-admin account, so I can't check that, sorry. (I'll create one if you think it would be useful.) That said, I don't really think this should be visible to me unless I make a deliberate effort to view the material (for cause). I do not know if material suppressed by the WMF shows up. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 00:08, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
- I just tested it with a suppressed edit summary and it shows in the browse history dropdown (but not in the normal diff), which matches with it showing RevDel'd details to an admin (I'm an Oversighter). It looks like the browse history dropdown circumvents
unhide=1
in the URL (that is, it shows everything you're entitled to see without asking for confirmation as the normal diff does). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:54, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
- I just tested it with a suppressed edit summary and it shows in the browse history dropdown (but not in the normal diff), which matches with it showing RevDel'd details to an admin (I'm an Oversighter). It looks like the browse history dropdown circumvents
- Thanks for checking into this. Indeed, the slider does not show the information when I am logged-out. I don't have a non-admin account, so I can't check that, sorry. (I'll create one if you think it would be useful.) That said, I don't really think this should be visible to me unless I make a deliberate effort to view the material (for cause). I do not know if material suppressed by the WMF shows up. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 00:08, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
- Same here - here is a sample page Sandbox33 - the info is only showing in the slider when logged in as an account with that access (e.g. admins) @78.26: if you have more info we can get a phab case open if this is a non-admin leak. — xaosflux Talk 23:31, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
@78.26:, I think you should create a non-admin account, and confirm for yourself that it isn't a non-admin leak. Once that's done, we can (and should) have the discussion about whether the feature can be improved by forcing admins to make a deliberate effort to view RevDeleted material. Tazerdadog (talk) 23:03, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
- We almost certainly should require a deliberate effort if only because some material is revdel'd because it is disruptive (e.g. material that causes certain browsers or operating systems to crash). ~ Rob13Talk 23:10, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
- I just tried with the above sample page and it will not display the removed details to me. Home Lander (talk) 23:12, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
- Hello, 78.26 here under the brand-new-shiny alternative non-admin account. I can confirm there is not a non-admin leak. So, let the discussion commence regarding ease of viewing rev-delete material for admins. Thanks everyone. Shellacked! (talk) 06:00, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- I think it would be better for admins to see the username crossed out - they could, at the same time, see who the user is and the fact that the username was deleted. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 06:21, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- Od Mishehu, in Preferences there's a "Strike out usernames that have been blocked" option. Primefac (talk) 12:49, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- I think it would be better for admins to see the username crossed out - they could, at the same time, see who the user is and the fact that the username was deleted. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 06:21, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- Hello, 78.26 here under the brand-new-shiny alternative non-admin account. I can confirm there is not a non-admin leak. So, let the discussion commence regarding ease of viewing rev-delete material for admins. Thanks everyone. Shellacked! (talk) 06:00, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- I just tried with the above sample page and it will not display the removed details to me. Home Lander (talk) 23:12, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
Sleeper socks?
I stumbled upon HDouglas, GDouglas, JDouglas, NDouglas and MDouglas. All accounts were created the same day, within minutes of each other. Each user page is identical or near to it. I can't imagine we have five relatives that all decide to create Wikipedia accounts the same day. Each account generally has only edited their user page. I worry that after a month it's too late to get any SPI results. Am I wrong to assume there's something odd here? Chris Troutman (talk) 22:04, 15 July 2017 (UTC) (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.)
- NDouglas has posted at BikeSally, which has similar behavior, including the comments when creating their talk page. Looks like that account has existed since 2010. Home Lander (talk) 22:20, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
- HDouglas, GDouglas, JDouglas, NDouglas, MDouglas, BikeSally, and Buaidh are Technically indistinguishable, but I'm not really getting a sockpuppeting vibe here. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 00:18, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- Do they edit from Colorado, as they all claim? עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 12:54, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- I don't make a habit of speaking for other people, but I'm guessing that Ks0stm would tell you that we really shouldn't say. —DoRD (talk) 15:43, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- User:Buaidh, who is included in the above group, has been on Wikipedia since 2006 and has 170,000 edits. This page suggests he might have crossed paths with User:BikeSally. I'll leave him a note that he's been mentioned here. It occurs to me that the Douglas-named accounts might all have been created in preparation for a Wikipedia-sponsored event in June 2017 near Denver. (See also Wikipedia:Meetup/Colorado/Wiknic/2017). EdJohnston (talk) 15:47, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- And Buaidh edits everything Colorado; I doubt there's a town or a major politician in the state whose article he's not edited. So if he's indistinguishable from them, they're definitely in Colorado. I'd be absolutely shocked if he were involved in anything untoward. Nyttend (talk) 21:58, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- Requesting the account creator userright is the proper way to prepare for an edit-a-thon, not this. Further, why would Buaidh put stuff on the userpages if they anticipated new users that would need accounts? Even if I knew the Douglas family and they all planned to be at that event, I wouldn't create them accounts and user pages. This is either some poor thinking by Buaidh, a mistake from the CU check, or this is evidence of an attempt at socking. I'm not sure which but I didn't volunteer at WP:NPP to find stuff like this. Chris Troutman (talk) 07:49, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- And Buaidh edits everything Colorado; I doubt there's a town or a major politician in the state whose article he's not edited. So if he's indistinguishable from them, they're definitely in Colorado. I'd be absolutely shocked if he were involved in anything untoward. Nyttend (talk) 21:58, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- User:Buaidh, who is included in the above group, has been on Wikipedia since 2006 and has 170,000 edits. This page suggests he might have crossed paths with User:BikeSally. I'll leave him a note that he's been mentioned here. It occurs to me that the Douglas-named accounts might all have been created in preparation for a Wikipedia-sponsored event in June 2017 near Denver. (See also Wikipedia:Meetup/Colorado/Wiknic/2017). EdJohnston (talk) 15:47, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- I don't make a habit of speaking for other people, but I'm guessing that Ks0stm would tell you that we really shouldn't say. —DoRD (talk) 15:43, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- Do they edit from Colorado, as they all claim? עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 12:54, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
Jodie Whittaker
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Could an Admin please semi-protect Jodie Whittaker, who has been announced as the new doctor in Doctor Who.. loads of vandalism as a result. JMHamo (talk) 15:31, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
XTools 3.0 Beta
The XTools and Community Tech teams are pleased to announce the public beta of XTools 3.0! After a year of work, we have rewritten the code for increased maintainability and stability. We have also redesigned the interface.
You are more than welcome to help us test it at xtools.wmflabs.org. We welcome your bug reports and feature requests on Phabricator (Please tag it with "tool-labs-tools-xtools").
On behalf of the XTools team, ~ Matthewrbowker Say something · What I've done 05:28, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- Do you have a bug tracker for it? On the user edit count page, the Time Card chart shows days from Monday through Sunday on the Y axis, but hovering over the bubbles shows that the data points are in the opposite order - ie a bubble at the Monday level according to the Y-axis is labelled Sunday and vice-versa. GoldenRing (talk) 08:33, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- @GoldenRing: Although I'm sure Matthew will see this report, phabricator (project
Tool-labs-tools-xtools
) is where bug reports can go -- There'sNoTime (to explain) 10:02, 17 July 2017 (UTC)- @GoldenRing: Indeed, that's the correct place. If you have trouble with Phabricator, feel free to drop a note on my talk page and I can file the bug on your behalf. ~ Matthewrbowker Say something · What I've done 16:31, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- @GoldenRing: Although I'm sure Matthew will see this report, phabricator (project
- Hey, it looks super sleek! Feeding your data hunger. Great work! Mz7 (talk) 16:38, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- @Mz7: Thank you so much! ~ Matthewrbowker Say something · What I've done 19:12, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- Hey! I'm admin worthy! Katietalk 19:23, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- Heh KrakatoaKatie, when someone like me is only 113 points behind you, I wouldn't boast to much about it :p Mind you, it's a bit like googling yourself, wikipedia-style isn't it?! :D — fortunavelut luna 19:36, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- 913 of worthiness - well how about that? You could have been more worthy if you'd only created more deleted pages. -- zzuuzz (talk) 19:41, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- We have a slightly-cooler one that Enterprisey adapted from ScottyWong's tool, now at [15]. Maybe Enterprisey and Matt should get together and implement one tool instead of two? :D --Izno (talk) 20:26, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- I'd like to see the algorithm behind this thing...pointless without it. – Train2104 (t • c) 21:32, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- The original code for AdminScore was in the old XTools, so I migrated it over 1:1. Wasn't aware there was another one.
- @Train2104: Indeed, I'll put it in our documentation. ~ Matthewrbowker Say something · What I've done 21:42, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- Enterprisey's code. I think the one in XTools and the one Enterprisey put together are both adapted from Scottywong but Enterprisey has poked his since. --Izno (talk) 03:19, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- Yeah, I used the algorithm from Scottywong's Python code, and then added a couple more "score components". Mine is Javascript-based because I was tired of waiting a super long time for the tool to load. At the moment, the XTools version looks like it caps each component at +100. Mine just uses logarithms to make sure that going from 9 to 10 years, for example, gives you less points than going from 1 to 2 years. Enterprisey (talk!) 05:47, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- Enterprisey's code. I think the one in XTools and the one Enterprisey put together are both adapted from Scottywong but Enterprisey has poked his since. --Izno (talk) 03:19, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- I'd like to see the algorithm behind this thing...pointless without it. – Train2104 (t • c) 21:32, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- @Matthewrbowker: Not exactly something that I find urgent enough to file a bug report over, but it would be nice to have a time zone label on the time card so that people know whether it's in local or UTC. I'm sure it's in UTC, but from looking at my time card pattern that's not clear right off the bat. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 21:36, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- @Ks0stm: Thanks for the report. Go ahead and file a task anyway, as that way we can track it. ~ Matthewrbowker Say something · What I've done 21:42, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
Signature question
Does WP:AGF and WP:NPA apply to customised signatures? I've recently come across an editor with a customised signature that attacks a certain group of editors, and doesn't show good faith towards that group. Mjroots (talk) 17:45, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- Dealing with problematic signatures "Wikipedia's Username policy describes accepted practices and behavior in naming and operating a user account on Wikipedia that apply to both usernames and signatures" Username policy: "The following types of usernames are prohibited: Contain words or phrases that are likely to offend other contributors ... Contain or imply personal attacks or contain contentious material about living persons" If it applies to the username, it applies to the signature. — Maile (talk) 17:57, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- Following further discussion at User talk:Maile66, it seems that the particular editor I had in mind has already been discussed. There are better things for me to waste my time on that pursuing this particular issue, although I am glad to learn that the general principle holds firm and is backed by policy. Mjroots (talk) 07:58, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
Need more editors to volunteer joint closure on referrer info RfC discussion
We had Winged Blades of Godric and Cyberpower678 declaring themselves last month as volunteers to do the joint closure on Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/RfC: Wikimedia referrer policy. However, the RfC discussion was relisted for an extended time. Its proposer Guy Macon, who can explain more than I, has concerns about WMF staff trying to influence the WMF into reconsidering the abidance to the consensus. Therefore, I believe that more volunteers, including uninvolved but experienced administrators, are needed to do the joint closures, especially to "address the question of whether Wikipedia or the WMF has the final authority on what referrer information we send
," quote from Guy Macon. Any more volunteers, like a third and/or fourth closer? Thanks. --George Ho (talk) 19:01, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- I find this in bad faith. Everybody and their brother knows that a strong majority of editors here support having no referrer information; canvassing to have "four closer" admins is a blatant attempt to over-emphasize the view of the English Wikipedia editors on a topic that they may not have a binding opinion on. To use excessively-legal terminology, consensus here can't over-turn jurisdictional issues. Power~enwiki (talk) 08:00, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
Can some administrator please offer a second opinion on User:Msaiflodin? This editor isn’t a Vandalism-Only Account because the editor isn’t a vandal, but the editor wastes the time of New Page Patrol by creating pages that are not here to contribute to the encyclopedia. (I know that NOTHERE is meant to apply to editors. I am not sure whether this editor is here constructively.) Robert McClenon (talk) 04:37, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- Saifudsin (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- Msaiflodin (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
- Nazir Mohammad (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
Saifudsin is the older account which created the same article before word for word. Nazir is another sock based on Commons contribs which has another word for word posting of that article. Both socks indeffed and master blocked 72 hours. Both socks have files at commons and the article has been created on another wiki. This is a clear COI with socks so if the master returns to the behavior then he will likely be indeffed.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 05:10, 18 July 2017 (UTC)