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:::::::::::: Just read your own links. You posted a tag to merge [[Super Saiyan]] with [[Saiyan]], not [[Saiyan]] with [[Dragon Ball]]. It's as simple as that. There is no debate. By any normal standard that's grounds for a revert. Maybe you guys play things fast and loose in your WP, I don't know. But to me it seemed pretty clear cut. As for the India articles, keep in mind that after the redirect was posted an editor overwrote it in good faith and began posting information about a village named Saiyan in India. The info was pretty bad, but that's what first grabbed my attention. I looked into the edit history, realized that a pretty shady redirect was done so I restored it as best I could, moved it to [[Saiyan (Dragon Ball)]] and made, [[Saiyan (disambiguation)]] which referenced the various Indian villages. I had hoped to do a bit more research about the villages, perhaps write an article, and see if maybe one of them may have been the reason for naming the [[Dragon Ball]] race Saiyan, but I just never got around to it. And I never said I know nothing about DBZ. I've watched a lot of the show, and own a few of the fighting titles, but I'm far from a fanboy. I don't spend a lot of time in the fiction realm in general on Wikipedia. But if I had to name a wiki pet peeve it would be overzealous and premature deletions. Articles as old as this one, and that exist on so many languages shouldn't just disappear without as much as a proper tag. [[User:PeRshGo|PeRshGo]] ([[User talk:PeRshGo|talk]]) 02:17, 20 June 2010 (UTC) |
:::::::::::: Just read your own links. You posted a tag to merge [[Super Saiyan]] with [[Saiyan]], not [[Saiyan]] with [[Dragon Ball]]. It's as simple as that. There is no debate. By any normal standard that's grounds for a revert. Maybe you guys play things fast and loose in your WP, I don't know. But to me it seemed pretty clear cut. As for the India articles, keep in mind that after the redirect was posted an editor overwrote it in good faith and began posting information about a village named Saiyan in India. The info was pretty bad, but that's what first grabbed my attention. I looked into the edit history, realized that a pretty shady redirect was done so I restored it as best I could, moved it to [[Saiyan (Dragon Ball)]] and made, [[Saiyan (disambiguation)]] which referenced the various Indian villages. I had hoped to do a bit more research about the villages, perhaps write an article, and see if maybe one of them may have been the reason for naming the [[Dragon Ball]] race Saiyan, but I just never got around to it. And I never said I know nothing about DBZ. I've watched a lot of the show, and own a few of the fighting titles, but I'm far from a fanboy. I don't spend a lot of time in the fiction realm in general on Wikipedia. But if I had to name a wiki pet peeve it would be overzealous and premature deletions. Articles as old as this one, and that exist on so many languages shouldn't just disappear without as much as a proper tag. [[User:PeRshGo|PeRshGo]] ([[User talk:PeRshGo|talk]]) 02:17, 20 June 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::Despite what you say, there was a very clear and explicit consensus to redirect both articles to to ''[[Dragon Ball]]''. Your continued arguments that there was no consensus or that the consensus was invalid is nothing more than [[WP:IDIDN'THEARTHAT]]. You were very wrong to restore the redirect on both occasions. On the English Wikipedia, we try our best to avoid articles on fiction that are based entirely on primary sources and clearly have no coverage by reliable third-party sources. These type of articles that do exits are often created by fans who aren't aware or don't care about Wikipedia's policies on fiction and notability. It was clear in both of your restorations that you were not going to "get the point", which is why I decided to put the article up for deletion with the intentions of recreating a redirect later rather than edit waring over returning it to a redirect. —'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|t]] | [[Special:Contributions/TheFarix|c]]) 02:42, 20 June 2010 (UTC) |
:::::::::::::Despite what you say, there was a very clear and explicit consensus to redirect both articles to to ''[[Dragon Ball]]''. Your continued arguments that there was no consensus or that the consensus was invalid is nothing more than [[WP:IDIDN'THEARTHAT]]. You were very wrong to restore the redirect on both occasions. On the English Wikipedia, we try our best to avoid articles on fiction that are based entirely on primary sources and clearly have no coverage by reliable third-party sources. These type of articles that do exits are often created by fans who aren't aware or don't care about Wikipedia's policies on fiction and notability. It was clear in both of your restorations that you were not going to "get the point", which is why I decided to put the article up for deletion with the intentions of recreating a redirect later rather than edit waring over returning it to a redirect. —'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|t]] | [[Special:Contributions/TheFarix|c]]) 02:42, 20 June 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::::It's alright I get it. I looked around and realized nearly all of the Dragon Ball related articles got steamrolled in one foul swoop. This just happened to be the one little article I noticed. The dozens of low quality Dragon Ball articles that had popped up over the years were decided to be collectively cleaned out. I understand that Wikiprojects often do this sort of thing. Sometimes you just gotta clean house. I don't necessarily believe in the practice, as it really can't be considered good faith, but I can live with it. Just be more honest about it next time. [[User:PeRshGo|PeRshGo]] ([[User talk:PeRshGo|talk]]) 03:05, 20 June 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment'''. There may be some sources available. Looking through Google Scholar hits for Saiyan [http://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=20&q=saiyan&hl=en&as_sdt=20000000], most of them seem to be unrelated or trivial mentions, but I noticed what looked to be a review in [[The Lion and the Unicorn (journal)|The Lion and the Unicorn]] of [http://books.google.com/books?id=e_7qPwAACAAJ&dq=Boys+in+Children's+Literature+and+Popular+Culture:+Masculinity,+Abjection,+and+the+Fictional+Child&hl=en&ei=NlUcTJH8AcOqlAffluHhDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA this book], with Google's snippet of the review saying "For example, her adroit and thoughtful reading of the primary text of Dragon Ball Z exposes the testosterone-driven—and borderline white supremacist—behavior of the Saiyan warriors." I don't think the full text of either the review or the book is available from Google, but if the book actually discusses the Saiyans in detail then it could be a good source. Searching Google Scholar for the alternate spelling "saiyajin" turns up some hits as well [http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=saiyajin&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=ws], but they aren't in English so I can't tell if they are useful. Someone might want to look at those in case any of them are useful sources. [[User:Calathan|Calathan]] ([[User talk:Calathan|talk]]) 05:50, 19 June 2010 (UTC) |
*'''Comment'''. There may be some sources available. Looking through Google Scholar hits for Saiyan [http://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=20&q=saiyan&hl=en&as_sdt=20000000], most of them seem to be unrelated or trivial mentions, but I noticed what looked to be a review in [[The Lion and the Unicorn (journal)|The Lion and the Unicorn]] of [http://books.google.com/books?id=e_7qPwAACAAJ&dq=Boys+in+Children's+Literature+and+Popular+Culture:+Masculinity,+Abjection,+and+the+Fictional+Child&hl=en&ei=NlUcTJH8AcOqlAffluHhDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA this book], with Google's snippet of the review saying "For example, her adroit and thoughtful reading of the primary text of Dragon Ball Z exposes the testosterone-driven—and borderline white supremacist—behavior of the Saiyan warriors." I don't think the full text of either the review or the book is available from Google, but if the book actually discusses the Saiyans in detail then it could be a good source. Searching Google Scholar for the alternate spelling "saiyajin" turns up some hits as well [http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=saiyajin&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=ws], but they aren't in English so I can't tell if they are useful. Someone might want to look at those in case any of them are useful sources. [[User:Calathan|Calathan]] ([[User talk:Calathan|talk]]) 05:50, 19 June 2010 (UTC) |
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* '''Redirect''' for now. No evidence of meeting any relevant inclusion guideline. Would gladly change my position if enough evidences are found. --[[User:KrebMarkt|KrebMarkt]] 06:42, 19 June 2010 (UTC) |
* '''Redirect''' for now. No evidence of meeting any relevant inclusion guideline. Would gladly change my position if enough evidences are found. --[[User:KrebMarkt|KrebMarkt]] 06:42, 19 June 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''': I just noticed someone at [[Dragon Ball]]'s talk mention that there isn't even a Dragon Ball Z article. I think I better understand the gravity of the situation now. [[User:PeRshGo|PeRshGo]] ([[User talk:PeRshGo|talk]]) 02:31, 20 June 2010 (UTC) |
*'''Comment''': I just noticed someone at [[Dragon Ball]]'s talk mention that there isn't even a Dragon Ball Z article. I think I better understand the gravity of the situation now. [[User:PeRshGo|PeRshGo]] ([[User talk:PeRshGo|talk]]) 02:31, 20 June 2010 (UTC) |
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:Before you go making any more messes, look at the talk archive. ''[[Dragon Ball Z]]'' was merged to ''[[Dragon Ball]]'' by overwhelming consensus and [[WP:MOSAM]] because they are *gasp* the same series! That they added an extra name on the anime release does not negate that. That consensus has been consistentlyexpand upheld in nearly annual revisiting of the discussion. Not that I bet you'll care, as you seem determine to just stir up hornet's nests and run around fancrufting the DB articles despite your continued claims that you aren't a "fan". -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342FF'>AnmaFinotera</span>]] ([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 02:46, 20 June 2010 (UTC) |
:Before you go making any more messes, look at the talk archive. ''[[Dragon Ball Z]]'' was merged to ''[[Dragon Ball]]'' by overwhelming consensus and [[WP:MOSAM]] because they are *gasp* the same series! That they added an extra name on the anime release does not negate that. That consensus has been consistentlyexpand upheld in nearly annual revisiting of the discussion. Not that I bet you'll care, as you seem determine to just stir up hornet's nests and run around fancrufting the DB articles despite your continued claims that you aren't a "fan". -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342FF'>AnmaFinotera</span>]] ([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 02:46, 20 June 2010 (UTC) |
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::Nah It's cool. You actually bothered to mention it on the talk page this time. Good job. And anyways I'll be too busy trying to merge [[Star Trek]] and [[Star Trek: The Next Generation]] by calling all who oppose the merger trekies and fanboys. [[User:PeRshGo|PeRshGo]] ([[User talk:PeRshGo|talk]]) 03:13, 20 June 2010 (UTC) |
Revision as of 03:13, 20 June 2010
Saiyan (Dragon Ball)
- Saiyan (Dragon Ball) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
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Fails WP:NOT as containing an extensive plot summary with not a single third-party source to provide real-world relevance, such as reception, development, and . Wikipedia is not a fansite. Article was previously redirected twice to the main article of the work, Dragon Ball, however, the redirects have been repeatedly reverted. —Farix (t | c) 02:31, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Anime and manga-related deletion discussions. -- —Farix (t | c) 02:31, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- Keep The article was redirected with no consensus, and as such it was reverted. A discussion had taken place about merging Super Saiyan into this article but an overzealous editor decided on their own to redirect both to the Dragon Ball article. The article needs work but that only means it should be improved, not deleted. Keep in mind we are talking about an article that exists in 12 languages and has hundreds of edits. PeRshGo (talk) 04:16, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- None of this excuses the fact that the article fundamentally fails WP:V along with two whole sections of WP:NOT and is completely non-notable because it has not been covered by a single reliable third-party source. As for there being no consenses for the original redirect, this discussion proves that to be completely false. There was a discussion and a consensus formed to redirect both articles to Dragon Ball. There was no discussion and consensus to restore either article. You did that entirely on your own. —Farix (t | c) 04:42, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- Read the text. That was in reference to the Super Saiyan article not this one. One person saying they should do it and one agreeing with no further discussion is NOT consensus. Even the issue of merging the Super Saiyan article was still in debate. And keep in mind you're referencing a discussion that never took place on the Saiyan talk page. The merger was completely out of line with proper procedure. And no, I have not stated that this is a perfect article but it needs improvement, not deletion. PeRshGo (talk) 05:07, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- The discussion was in reference to both articles. Just because the discussion occurred in one place doesn't mean that the consensus to redirect both articles to Dragon Ball invalid. —Farix (t | c) 02:45, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
- Read the text. That was in reference to the Super Saiyan article not this one. One person saying they should do it and one agreeing with no further discussion is NOT consensus. Even the issue of merging the Super Saiyan article was still in debate. And keep in mind you're referencing a discussion that never took place on the Saiyan talk page. The merger was completely out of line with proper procedure. And no, I have not stated that this is a perfect article but it needs improvement, not deletion. PeRshGo (talk) 05:07, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- None of this excuses the fact that the article fundamentally fails WP:V along with two whole sections of WP:NOT and is completely non-notable because it has not been covered by a single reliable third-party source. As for there being no consenses for the original redirect, this discussion proves that to be completely false. There was a discussion and a consensus formed to redirect both articles to Dragon Ball. There was no discussion and consensus to restore either article. You did that entirely on your own. —Farix (t | c) 04:42, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- Redirect restore redirect per the consensus at the merge discussion that occured quite awhile ago at Talk:Super_Saiyan#Merge_with_Saiyan_Article and with Super Saiyan's later merging to Dragon Ball (a redirect PeRshGo has wrongly undone as well); PeRshGo's inappropriate dismissal of the consensus there and the overall clean up of DB articles is deserving of a troutslap. Unnotable fictional concept with no actual significant coverage in any reliable source, and as nom notes, Wikipedia is not a fansite. There is an active Dragon Ball wikia for that sort of extensive, minute OR. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 05:47, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- Note once again that you are referencing the Super Saiyan page, not the Saiyan (Dragon Ball) page. If I went over to Klingon's talk page and argued that we merge Vulcan (Star Trek) with Star Trek you can be certain it would get reverted. Not even a merger tag was put up. It was just done. PeRshGo (talk) 06:21, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- No, I am referencing both. I was part of the original discussions, thanks, and there were done in an appropriate fashion. Your disagreeing with them and randomly deciding to undo them ages later is your issue. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 06:26, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- You aren't at any point referencing both discussions. Here's the discussion on Saiyan (Dragon Ball)'s talk page, Talk:Saiyan_(Dragon_Ball)#Merge in Super Saiyan here. You'll notice that merging the page with Dragon Ball wasn't agreed to or even mentioned. You just did it, no tag, no anything. PeRshGo (talk) 06:40, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- The edit summary notes it was done per consensus, so take your bad faith, thinly veiled negative claims elsewhere. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 06:45, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- You didn't follow anything close appropriate procedure so I reverted it. If you can show me a merger tag, or even one comment on Talk: Saiyan (Dragon Ball) that would be something. But you can't show either because they never happened. PeRshGo (talk) 06:55, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- Both articles were properly tagged for merger as is clear in the edit histories[1][2] before being redirected. The discussion occurred properly at Super Saiyan re merging the two articles, and the consensus was to redirect BOTH to Dragon Ball. Discussions do not occur in both places, nor is it supposed to. FYI, one of the participants in that discussion was an admin, so I seriously doubt he wouldn't have said something if procedure had not been done properly, but of course it was. You simply disagreed with the result and came later and undid it all, twice, despite being told it was by consensus, which it was. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 06:58, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- Once again, that was the tag for Super Sayian to be merged into Saiyan, not Saiyan to be merged into Dragon Ball. You can defend it all you want but the history doesn't lie. A discussion to redirect the whole page to Dragon Ball should have come with its own tag. And just because an admin was involved somehow doesn't mean they oversaw every step. It was a bad move, and given the article was written primarily by inexperienced editors it went unchallenged. I'm not here pushing some fanboy agenda. I can't even remember my last edit within the realm of anime. And given your constant accusations I can't help but think it's all motivated by WP:JDLI. I just saw a bad redirect while poking around and reverted it. The only plan I have for Saiyan is maybe to develop some of the Indian district articles. PeRshGo (talk) 09:17, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- No, once again it was a tag to merge them together. That the decision was to redirect them BOTH to Dragon Ball does not invalidate the consensus at all. It would have had the same participants either way. The move was valid, no matter how much you want to complain, and argue. And if you know nothing about the topic, and couldn't care less, then why would you even be looking at a redirect from last year and poking around in it. Sorry, but someone who isn't pushing a "fanboy" agenda and has no interest in the topic is certainly not going to be inclined to vilify and declare all of the active, experienced editors involved in the discussion, who are all members of the Anime and manga project and actually are well versed in the topic, to have acting wrongly. Unless of course you really have some other motive. Dragon Ball's Saiyan has nothing to do with India, so I don't see what you could possibly plan to "develop". -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 16:23, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- Just read your own links. You posted a tag to merge Super Saiyan with Saiyan, not Saiyan with Dragon Ball. It's as simple as that. There is no debate. By any normal standard that's grounds for a revert. Maybe you guys play things fast and loose in your WP, I don't know. But to me it seemed pretty clear cut. As for the India articles, keep in mind that after the redirect was posted an editor overwrote it in good faith and began posting information about a village named Saiyan in India. The info was pretty bad, but that's what first grabbed my attention. I looked into the edit history, realized that a pretty shady redirect was done so I restored it as best I could, moved it to Saiyan (Dragon Ball) and made, Saiyan (disambiguation) which referenced the various Indian villages. I had hoped to do a bit more research about the villages, perhaps write an article, and see if maybe one of them may have been the reason for naming the Dragon Ball race Saiyan, but I just never got around to it. And I never said I know nothing about DBZ. I've watched a lot of the show, and own a few of the fighting titles, but I'm far from a fanboy. I don't spend a lot of time in the fiction realm in general on Wikipedia. But if I had to name a wiki pet peeve it would be overzealous and premature deletions. Articles as old as this one, and that exist on so many languages shouldn't just disappear without as much as a proper tag. PeRshGo (talk) 02:17, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
- Despite what you say, there was a very clear and explicit consensus to redirect both articles to to Dragon Ball. Your continued arguments that there was no consensus or that the consensus was invalid is nothing more than WP:IDIDN'THEARTHAT. You were very wrong to restore the redirect on both occasions. On the English Wikipedia, we try our best to avoid articles on fiction that are based entirely on primary sources and clearly have no coverage by reliable third-party sources. These type of articles that do exits are often created by fans who aren't aware or don't care about Wikipedia's policies on fiction and notability. It was clear in both of your restorations that you were not going to "get the point", which is why I decided to put the article up for deletion with the intentions of recreating a redirect later rather than edit waring over returning it to a redirect. —Farix (t | c) 02:42, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
- It's alright I get it. I looked around and realized nearly all of the Dragon Ball related articles got steamrolled in one foul swoop. This just happened to be the one little article I noticed. The dozens of low quality Dragon Ball articles that had popped up over the years were decided to be collectively cleaned out. I understand that Wikiprojects often do this sort of thing. Sometimes you just gotta clean house. I don't necessarily believe in the practice, as it really can't be considered good faith, but I can live with it. Just be more honest about it next time. PeRshGo (talk) 03:05, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
- Despite what you say, there was a very clear and explicit consensus to redirect both articles to to Dragon Ball. Your continued arguments that there was no consensus or that the consensus was invalid is nothing more than WP:IDIDN'THEARTHAT. You were very wrong to restore the redirect on both occasions. On the English Wikipedia, we try our best to avoid articles on fiction that are based entirely on primary sources and clearly have no coverage by reliable third-party sources. These type of articles that do exits are often created by fans who aren't aware or don't care about Wikipedia's policies on fiction and notability. It was clear in both of your restorations that you were not going to "get the point", which is why I decided to put the article up for deletion with the intentions of recreating a redirect later rather than edit waring over returning it to a redirect. —Farix (t | c) 02:42, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
- Just read your own links. You posted a tag to merge Super Saiyan with Saiyan, not Saiyan with Dragon Ball. It's as simple as that. There is no debate. By any normal standard that's grounds for a revert. Maybe you guys play things fast and loose in your WP, I don't know. But to me it seemed pretty clear cut. As for the India articles, keep in mind that after the redirect was posted an editor overwrote it in good faith and began posting information about a village named Saiyan in India. The info was pretty bad, but that's what first grabbed my attention. I looked into the edit history, realized that a pretty shady redirect was done so I restored it as best I could, moved it to Saiyan (Dragon Ball) and made, Saiyan (disambiguation) which referenced the various Indian villages. I had hoped to do a bit more research about the villages, perhaps write an article, and see if maybe one of them may have been the reason for naming the Dragon Ball race Saiyan, but I just never got around to it. And I never said I know nothing about DBZ. I've watched a lot of the show, and own a few of the fighting titles, but I'm far from a fanboy. I don't spend a lot of time in the fiction realm in general on Wikipedia. But if I had to name a wiki pet peeve it would be overzealous and premature deletions. Articles as old as this one, and that exist on so many languages shouldn't just disappear without as much as a proper tag. PeRshGo (talk) 02:17, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
- No, once again it was a tag to merge them together. That the decision was to redirect them BOTH to Dragon Ball does not invalidate the consensus at all. It would have had the same participants either way. The move was valid, no matter how much you want to complain, and argue. And if you know nothing about the topic, and couldn't care less, then why would you even be looking at a redirect from last year and poking around in it. Sorry, but someone who isn't pushing a "fanboy" agenda and has no interest in the topic is certainly not going to be inclined to vilify and declare all of the active, experienced editors involved in the discussion, who are all members of the Anime and manga project and actually are well versed in the topic, to have acting wrongly. Unless of course you really have some other motive. Dragon Ball's Saiyan has nothing to do with India, so I don't see what you could possibly plan to "develop". -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 16:23, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- Once again, that was the tag for Super Sayian to be merged into Saiyan, not Saiyan to be merged into Dragon Ball. You can defend it all you want but the history doesn't lie. A discussion to redirect the whole page to Dragon Ball should have come with its own tag. And just because an admin was involved somehow doesn't mean they oversaw every step. It was a bad move, and given the article was written primarily by inexperienced editors it went unchallenged. I'm not here pushing some fanboy agenda. I can't even remember my last edit within the realm of anime. And given your constant accusations I can't help but think it's all motivated by WP:JDLI. I just saw a bad redirect while poking around and reverted it. The only plan I have for Saiyan is maybe to develop some of the Indian district articles. PeRshGo (talk) 09:17, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- Both articles were properly tagged for merger as is clear in the edit histories[1][2] before being redirected. The discussion occurred properly at Super Saiyan re merging the two articles, and the consensus was to redirect BOTH to Dragon Ball. Discussions do not occur in both places, nor is it supposed to. FYI, one of the participants in that discussion was an admin, so I seriously doubt he wouldn't have said something if procedure had not been done properly, but of course it was. You simply disagreed with the result and came later and undid it all, twice, despite being told it was by consensus, which it was. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 06:58, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- You didn't follow anything close appropriate procedure so I reverted it. If you can show me a merger tag, or even one comment on Talk: Saiyan (Dragon Ball) that would be something. But you can't show either because they never happened. PeRshGo (talk) 06:55, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- The edit summary notes it was done per consensus, so take your bad faith, thinly veiled negative claims elsewhere. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 06:45, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- You aren't at any point referencing both discussions. Here's the discussion on Saiyan (Dragon Ball)'s talk page, Talk:Saiyan_(Dragon_Ball)#Merge in Super Saiyan here. You'll notice that merging the page with Dragon Ball wasn't agreed to or even mentioned. You just did it, no tag, no anything. PeRshGo (talk) 06:40, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- No, I am referencing both. I was part of the original discussions, thanks, and there were done in an appropriate fashion. Your disagreeing with them and randomly deciding to undo them ages later is your issue. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 06:26, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- Note once again that you are referencing the Super Saiyan page, not the Saiyan (Dragon Ball) page. If I went over to Klingon's talk page and argued that we merge Vulcan (Star Trek) with Star Trek you can be certain it would get reverted. Not even a merger tag was put up. It was just done. PeRshGo (talk) 06:21, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- Comment. There may be some sources available. Looking through Google Scholar hits for Saiyan [3], most of them seem to be unrelated or trivial mentions, but I noticed what looked to be a review in The Lion and the Unicorn of this book, with Google's snippet of the review saying "For example, her adroit and thoughtful reading of the primary text of Dragon Ball Z exposes the testosterone-driven—and borderline white supremacist—behavior of the Saiyan warriors." I don't think the full text of either the review or the book is available from Google, but if the book actually discusses the Saiyans in detail then it could be a good source. Searching Google Scholar for the alternate spelling "saiyajin" turns up some hits as well [4], but they aren't in English so I can't tell if they are useful. Someone might want to look at those in case any of them are useful sources. Calathan (talk) 05:50, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- Redirect for now. No evidence of meeting any relevant inclusion guideline. Would gladly change my position if enough evidences are found. --KrebMarkt 06:42, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- Redirect for now for me as well. Here's my thing, the article was a submarine resurrection. The project tag and a link in template are missing. Which gives me the impression that the editor brought this article back under the radar in hopes that the page might live. If it wasn't for Sesshomaru finding it and telling me about it and me then reporting it, it might still be up unchanged for untold months if not years. The real world content is there in term of the Toriyama's development of the race, thank to the source books like the Daizenshus and the more recently published books. However, the concept is not embedded into pop culture like Klingon, Vulcan, or Kryptonian due to it's early entry into our lexicon. Plus, we also have to contend with the sad fact that, and I mean no disrespect the editors here or anywhere else on Wikipedia, most editors working on Dragon Ball, if not all foreign pop culture articles, are produced and worked on by fanboys and fangirls who really have no access to the those aforementioned source materials or can even speak or read the language to help make a real dent on such an article as this. And any if all people with any real access and incite on the sources have moved on and are busy with real life. I'd be more incline to wait until more sources for the impact and more translations of the source books appear to attempt another by protocol resurrection. Sarujo (talk) 08:56, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- Comment: In regards to not knowing the source language, there could be inter-wiki coordination with the Japanese Wikipedia to identify and transcribe Japanese-language sources so that they can be used to help develop articles. The ja:Wikipedia:Chatsubo can be used to initiate such requests. WhisperToMe (talk) 13:48, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- I didn't restore the WP stuff because I didn't realize it was missing. This wasn't a labor of love for me. I just did it because by any normal standard it would be a bad move. Someone with little to no consensus and no tags that directly mentioned the redirect, redirected a page that exists in several other languages, has countless edits and from looking at the history has already had 2 pages merged into it. It seems Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga takes mergers and redirects as serious as they do Wikipedia:Assume good faith. PeRshGo (talk) 09:29, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- Redirect: A lot of what we have is plot summary and in-universe information. Good encyclopedic articles are not made of that material. If secondary sources are found in regards to cultural impact or conception and development, then it could conceivably come back. PeRshGo: I would suggest looking through VIZ Dragon Ball books and guidebooks to see if Toriyama mentions any notes about how he designed Saiyans, what he decided to do, etc. Failing that, go on the ja:Wikipedia:Chatsubo and ask Japanese editors if they know any works that talk about Toriyama's development and conception of the Saiyans. WhisperToMe (talk) 13:51, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 15:33, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- Keep - (Lots of) sources exist.[5] Just imagine all the Japanese language info out there. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 16:41, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- Comment: The listing I saw simply has reviews of video games with "Saiyan" in their name. Saiyan is a common term in the DBZ lingo. However this doesn't prove that an abundance of information about the creation and conception of the Saiyan race or the public reaction to the design and implementation of the Saiyan race exists. Either one or both of these elements are needed to write a standalone article. WhisperToMe (talk) 16:44, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
- Comment: I just noticed someone at Dragon Ball's talk mention that there isn't even a Dragon Ball Z article. I think I better understand the gravity of the situation now. PeRshGo (talk) 02:31, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
- Before you go making any more messes, look at the talk archive. Dragon Ball Z was merged to Dragon Ball by overwhelming consensus and WP:MOSAM because they are *gasp* the same series! That they added an extra name on the anime release does not negate that. That consensus has been consistentlyexpand upheld in nearly annual revisiting of the discussion. Not that I bet you'll care, as you seem determine to just stir up hornet's nests and run around fancrufting the DB articles despite your continued claims that you aren't a "fan". -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 02:46, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
- Nah It's cool. You actually bothered to mention it on the talk page this time. Good job. And anyways I'll be too busy trying to merge Star Trek and Star Trek: The Next Generation by calling all who oppose the merger trekies and fanboys. PeRshGo (talk) 03:13, 20 June 2010 (UTC)