Vanamonde93 (talk | contribs) |
→Request concerning FeydHuxtable: procedural comments to admins outside of main evidence; not sure on what the best protocol is for this considering the word limit, but the recent admin comments do need to be addressed somehow |
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Feyd has made a very clear battleground mentality known here for this subject, so some sort of sanctions are needed to prevent additional disruption from them so the rest of us can actually get back to work on content since these issues above scuttle attempts at doing that. [[User:Kingofaces43|Kingofaces43]] ([[User talk:Kingofaces43|talk]]) 19:47, 16 March 2019 (UTC) |
Feyd has made a very clear battleground mentality known here for this subject, so some sort of sanctions are needed to prevent additional disruption from them so the rest of us can actually get back to work on content since these issues above scuttle attempts at doing that. [[User:Kingofaces43|Kingofaces43]] ([[User talk:Kingofaces43|talk]]) 19:47, 16 March 2019 (UTC) |
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'''Procedural comments''' |
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*[[User:Sandstein|Sandstein]], admins cannot override Arbcom and call a direct violation of the aspersions principle "frivolous". The case was declined, and arbs said to take to to the admin boards. [[User:Kingofaces43|Kingofaces43]] ([[User talk:Kingofaces43|talk]]) 01:14, 17 March 2019 (UTC) |
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::Just a note that [[User:Joe Roe|Joe Roe]] did say it was fine to file this at AE too. [[User:Kingofaces43|Kingofaces43]] ([[User talk:Kingofaces43|talk]]) 19:08, 18 March 2019 (UTC) |
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*[[User:Vanamonde93|Vanamonde]], the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#Casting_aspersions aspersions principle] was crafted to be very strict to prevent comments exactly like yours because some people would always waffle on it. Arbs at the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case&oldid=888183058#Mainstream_science_and_possible_pro-corporate_POV_editing:_Arbitrators'_opinion_on_hearing_this_matter_%3C0/7/1%3E declined case] also mentioned that the evidence was lacking to justify the claims, violating the principle. The original GMO/pesticide case was started in part because ANI does not handle these violations well. It was meant to be explicit that such behavior is not tolerated ''anywhere'' where pesticides/GMOs come up because not removing it makes the environment toxic and disrupts content discussion (or dispute resolution), but instead encourages the battleground behavior I've been receiving here trying to paint me as also disruptive for following the DS and getting battleground behavior removed. We're reaching a point if admins keep ignoring that and contradicting ArbCom, this will become an ArbCom matter to discuss ways to further prevent what's happening in this discussion (including what it does to editors who report the violations). It shouldn't need to be though since this is supposed to be a cut and dry violation as we hammered out at the original case, so I'm only asking for the standard protection editors who are following the DS are supposed to get from that principle, which has so far failed. [[User:Kingofaces43|Kingofaces43]] ([[User talk:Kingofaces43|talk]]) 19:08, 18 March 2019 (UTC) |
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*[[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]], I never called you [[WP:INVOLVED]] by acting at AE even before I fixed [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:GoldenRing&diff=888271968&oldid=888093269 my typo] that you would have seen before your post. I saying an uninvolved admin should not be directly misrepresenting an editor as I explicitly told you that you were doing, and that it was fixable. Continuing down that path is what causes problems. We're at a point though that so many aspersions (shill-type or more general) have been cast about me and not been tamped down per the principle that I cannot address them with the current word limit outside of these procedural comments. I'm just asking the principle be enforced due to the explicit violations so I can go back to editing those articles again and work on fixing some of the underlying issues there (including some of Feyd's edits) without having to deal with the toxic behavior Feyd has been following me around with there and here already outlined at the declined case Feyd made. [[User:Kingofaces43|Kingofaces43]] ([[User talk:Kingofaces43|talk]]) 19:08, 18 March 2019 (UTC) |
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; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : |
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : |
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<!-- Please notify the user against whom you request enforcement of the request, and then replace this comment with a diff of the notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise. -->[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:FeydHuxtable&diff=888078313&oldid=887132393] |
<!-- Please notify the user against whom you request enforcement of the request, and then replace this comment with a diff of the notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise. -->[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:FeydHuxtable&diff=888078313&oldid=887132393] |
Revision as of 19:08, 18 March 2019
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Dlthewave
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Dlthewave (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – –dlthewave ☎ 17:33, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Sanctions being appealed
- DiscussionLog
- Logged warning by Sandstein
- Deletion of User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing_of_firearms_articles by Goldenring
- Administrators imposing the sanctions
Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
GoldenRing (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of those administrators
Statement by Dlthewave
- I feel that the closing statement
"Springee, Trekphiler, RAF910 and Dlthewave are warned not to misuse Wikipedia as a forum for polemic statements unrelated to Wikipedia, or attacking or vilifying groups of editors, persons, or other entities."
, which appears to be copy-and-pasted from WP:POLEMIC, is not an accurate assessment of consensus among the admins who participated in the discussion. Among other things, it implies that all four editors are equally at fault, which does not appear to be what the admins intended in their support for a logged warning. Although Goldenring did delete a page in my userspace under WP:POLEMIC, there was no discussion of my "attacking" or "vilifying" anyone and one admin even stated"Dlthewave is in fact engaged in appropriate editing and discussion."
There was no proposal to issue a logged warning to Dlthewave. (As a sidenote, I also feel that issuing a polemic warning to the other three involved editors instead of a warning related to talk page conduct was entirely out of left field, but that is something for them to address in their own appeals if they choose to pursue them.) - I feel that Goldenring's deletion of a page in my userspace, User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing_of_firearms_articles, has a chilling effect on my ability to document and share what I view as a long-term pattern in the gun control/gun crime topic area. This documentation plays an essential role in addressing current problems that are, in my opinion, a continuation of that pattern. My intention is to demonstrate a pattern and not to attack the individual editors who have been involved in that pattern. This removal is especially concerning when the "opposing" attacks and accusations which I documented are allowed to remain in full view at WP:Firearms and other talk pages. I would be open to discussing ways to do this that would not be viewed as an attack page, since similar pages maintained by other editors have passed MfD.
- Although this deletion may have been within Goldenring's editorial discretion, I would like it to be reviewed by other admins and preferably discussed by the community at Miscellany for Deletion. –dlthewave ☎ 17:33, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Sandstein
After rereading User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing of firearms articles, I agree with the appellant that the page was not (quite) a violation of WP:POLEMIC because it did not name editors and did not make allegations of misconduct, except as implied in the title ("whitewashing"), but that alone probably doesn't merit a warning. Because that page was the reason for my warning, I am striking it and recommend that GoldenRing (talk · contribs) undelete the page. A case can perhaps be made for its deletion on grounds of copyright / attribution, but that's a matter for the deletion process. Sandstein 18:37, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Per my comment here, I've also withdrawn the warning with respect to Springee. Clearly I should have read the enforcement request more carefully; sorry for that. I think that we should be more careful in the future as to whether or not to entertain enforcement requests directed at multiple editors. Sandstein 22:59, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- In response to Bishonen, GoldenRing is correct that an action that has been labeled as an AE action may only be reviewed by way of the process described at WP:AC/DS#Appeals, that is, here at AE, or at AN or ARCA – but not at DRV. Bishonen, I recommend that you undo your temporary restoration of the page for the purpose of the DRV, or you may be desysopped for undoing an AE action out of process, as described at WP:AC/DS#Modifications by administrators. Any admin who acts on the currently ongoing DRV by overturning the deletion may likewise be desysopped. Sandstein 15:26, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Springee
I'm clearly an involved editor. As I said before I think Dlthewave has a very strong POV on this topic and I frequently disagree with them. However, when push comes to shove, I don't think on good faith they viewed the page as a POLMIC. For what it's worth, I would support reverting Dlthewave's warning. Springee (talk) 19:12, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by GoldenRing
I disagree with Sandstein above and stand by this action. Dlthewave has stated right here that the purpose of this page is to document long-term problematic editing and policy is clear that such material is allowed only for dispute resolution and when used in a timely manner. I don't see the practical difference between, "so-and-so said this" (which the appellant seems to admit would be disallowed) and "someone said this and here's a link showing who it was" which is what they've actually done. GoldenRing (talk) 21:01, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Bishonen: I'm not sure why you've suggested deletion review here. AE actions cannot be overturned at deletion review, only at AE, AN or ARCA. Have you also not just unilaterally undone an AE action? GoldenRing (talk) 10:19, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Dlthewave: I will reiterate here what I've said on the deletion review: if you wish to use this material for valid dispute resolution (probably either an ANI or arbitration case request) and can outline a reasonable timeline for doing so (either on-wiki or privately by email), then I will self-revert my enforcement action. GoldenRing (talk) 10:32, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- I would like to add, for what it's worth at this point, that I agree a formal warning to Dlthewave was not warranted. GoldenRing (talk) 12:07, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Please note that I have requested clarification from the arbitration committee regarding my deletion at WP:ARCA. GoldenRing (talk) 16:02, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Simonm223
Marginally involved. I just found out about the removal of DLThewave's excellent summary of the challenges faced to bring firearms into compliance with WP:N including the way that a wikiproject has tried to present their MOS suggestions as policy. I've said as much at another venue, but this is definitely not a violation of WP:POLEMIC and should be undeleted for the valuable resource it is. Simonm223 (talk) 15:03, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Dlthewave
- The matter of the deletion itself should be deferred to WP:DRV as that venue is much better equipped for such reviews. Whether or not the action itself was appropriate should be discussed here or in a more general manner at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee (where Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions redirects). — Godsy (TALKCONT) 10:49, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by Dlthewave
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I commented in the initial thread, so I'm not sure whether my response should appear in this section, or above with GoldenRing's and Sandstein's. The deletion of Dlthewave's userspace subpage was arguably appropriate under WP:POLEMIC, and within reasonable admin discretion on GoldenRing's part. While I'm not sure I would have done the same, I'm comfortable leaving the page deleted. That said, I don't think a formal warning to Dlthewave is warranted; there wasn't really any support for such a warning amongst uninvolved admins in the previous thread, and it seems like overkill. The proper response to a potentially polemical userspace subpage is to delete it, which has been done. There wasn't any convincing evidence of a pattern of behavior warranting a logged warning on Dlthewave's part, at least not that I saw.
Regarding the logged warnings, I do take Springee's point that they perhaps paint the remaining 3 editors with an overly broad brush. There are clearly gradations of concerning behavior, with Springee on the mild end and Trekphiler/RAF910 showing a much more sustained and problematic battleground attitude. I'll leave it up to other admins whether we should modify the warning to exclude Springee, but it is worth considering while we're here. MastCell Talk 21:19, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Hmm. This is definitely a confusing situation. Reading the deleted page, it does seem borderline WP:POLEMIC so, perhaps, GoldenRing was right in deleting it. But, Dlthewave brings up a good point. If they do plan on making a future case then how else can they keep a record of the edits they see as forming a pattern? They could do it off-wiki of course, but isn't it better to be open about one's activities? While the deletion was within admin discretion perhaps, in cases of this nature, it is better to leave them as is with a note to the editor that they can't leave it sticking around for too long. Imo, the warning should be withdrawn. --regentspark (comment) 00:22, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure about deleting the whitewashing essay; I can't seem to make up my mind. Suggest dlthewave take it to Wikipedia:Deletion review. An admin should be asked to temporarily undelete the page for purposes of discussion as soon as the DR is opened. But I don't have any trouble agreeing with Sandstein, Springee, MastCell, and Regentspark that dlthewave's warning should be withdrawn and struck from the log, and Sandstein has already done so. Bishonen | talk 01:11, 24 February 2019 (UTC).
- @Dlthewave:, I've temporarily undeleted your page for the deletion review. Bishonen | talk 22:01, 24 February 2019 (UTC).
- Your deletion can't be overturned at Deletion review, GoldenRing? Are you sure? In that case, obviously I suggested it because I didn't know any better. A bit of bad luck that apparently nobody who did know saw my suggestion for Deletion review here at AE, some 20 hours before Dlthewave actually opened the deletion review. I'm not sure what should be the next step, considering there is quite a lot of discussion at the review already, and some disagreement about how to proceed. But whatever action is taken, rest assured I won't feel "undermined" by it, as somebody suggested there. I'm personally fine with whatever, although I want to apologize to Dlthewave for potentially complicating his situation. As for "Have you also not just unilaterally undone an AE action?", no, I haven't. If you're referring to my temporary undeletion of the page, for the deletion review only and with the front page covered by a template, per the instructions here, I can only ask you not to be so silly. If you're talking about my giving Dlthewave bad advice, well, I've explained how that came about (=ignorance on my part). Bishonen | talk 12:54, 25 February 2019 (UTC).
- What an absolute joy you are to work with, Sandstein. It's a wonder more admins don't flock to help out at AE, where honest mistakes get met with immediate threats of desysopping. I do want to point out that there's a pretty clear consensus at DRV that the page doesn't violate WP:POLEMIC. @GoldenRing:, do I understand correctly that you are not going to recognize that consensus because it is being discussed on the Wrong Page(TM)? If this is the case, then I suppose we should tell everyone at DRV their opinions are not wanted there, re-delete the page, and then have the exact same discussion here. Or alternately, GR could rescind the deletion.... --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:59, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- I not only agree that restoring the page for deletion review is not an abuse of process, but that deleting the page via AE would be an abuse of process. The way to remove userspace essays that are contrary to policy is MfD., and review of decisions there is at Deletion Review. DGG ( talk ) 06:53, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- GoldenRing, do you intend to delete under AE every page in an area subject to DS (such as AP or PIA) that you think might arguably be the result of an action that violation an arb ruling,? DGG ( talk ) 17:16, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- And I have just noticed, Sandstein, that your closing at the AE Discussion used the wording of the arb case "for polemic statements unrelated to Wikipedia, " but the entire discussion above about whether it violated POLEMIC is irrelevant, because the page is obviously related to WP. And the arb com wording continued " attacking or vilifying groups of editors, persons, or other entities. " I do not see any editors named on the page in question. It was discussing edits. (Of course the editors were implied, because the statements wee linked, but nothing about the editors is question is said on the page, only about the edits. DGG ( talk ) 17:16, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by SashiRolls
Appeal unanimously declined. Sandstein 09:07, 13 March 2019 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by SashiRollsRecently, I saw somebody appealing on this board and I thought back on the fact that I've been banned for 750+ days from this board for my comment in Here are the details of the original case: on Saturday, 3 December 2016, Sagecandor insinuated I was a "Russian propaganda agent" at NPOV/N, while misrepresenting my contributions. (diff) On 10 December 2016, someone I do not know opened an AN/I case about Sagecandor and left me TP-notification that they had done so. In that AN/I case, the contributor currently known as GMG insinuated (in small letters) that I should be banned from all noticeboards for asking Cirt why they were so reticent to respond to another contributor's questions about their pre-Sagecandor identity. (NB: occurrence 20 of 34 for On 15 December 2016 Sagecandor accused Tlroche of being disruptive for creating a reference sub-section with {{reflist}}, then {{reflist-talk}} at NPOV/N (diffs 10-12), and for responding to SC having falsely accused them of "forging signatures" in diffs 4-5. At this point, Cirt had brought 3 cases to AE as Sagecandor in the space of a week and I thought I should provide diffs showing that 1) they were extremely averse to being transparent about their history and 2) they were making things up about the person they were currently prosecuting. I did not comment in the other two AE cases they had brought. (Cf. archive 204) As a result of the above, on 16 December I was indefinitely prohibited from commenting on AE requests to which I am not a party. I have never broken this prohibition. Within ten days of receiving that prohibition, I was blocked from en.wp entirely when Cirt prosecuted me with his Sagecandor sockpuppet. Over a week ago, I asked Timotheus Canens to reconsider whether he thought his current ban was justified or not. He did not wish to do so (edit summary: no). I asked him for diffs supporting the view that a topic-ban from AE was necessary or desirable. I have, to date, not received any. I have no intention of "casting aspersions" on anyone, nor do I have a "battleground mentality". I've made 2500 edits or so since returning around Toussaint (2018), quite a few of which were in controversial areas editing alongside editors whose reputations for, let's say, having "strong opinions" are well established. Two pages that I was the principal author of have also appeared on the en.wp front page (both nominated by others) during that time. The time-consuming process of reliving some of these moments to fill out the form here has been a bit of a wp:pain, which went beyond the bureaucratic question of filling out forms. It is entirely possible that I will never have reason to comment on an AE case that I am not a named party to. In other words, I believe I wandered into the middle of a heated battle surrounding Cirt's mission as an undercover editor without knowing what I was getting into, and will seek to avoid having that happen again. I have no intention of using AE as a soapbox in the way that it has been used in the past. I would like my full wiki-zen-ship privileges restored, and have the last active sanction against me removed about the CIRT affair, as it serves no purpose and discourages me from participating in this legendary land of socks and honey. My wikiscans: en | fr (this data is based on the "individual edit" rather than "substantive edit") Thank you for reading this, and sincere apologies for any damage I've done: I make awkward editing mistakes. Too many. that's why my edit totals are so high, because I fix it when I make a mistake. Unfortunately prior to 2016 my experience with mediawiki was overwhelmingly on a personal wiki where nobody cares if you make 8 edits to get a paragraph right. I'll try to improve in this area.
Statement by Timotheus CanensStatement by MrXAdmins should duly decline this appeal. There is no benefit to SashiRolls commenting in AE requests for which he is not a party. The comments in this AE request by SashiRolls were indicative of a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality with respect to SageCandor/Cirt. As evidence that SashiRolls continues to take a battleground approach with content disputants, I give you these diffs: For context, this discussion at ANI involved me reporting a user for violating 1RR community sanction restriction on an article about a chemical attack in Syria; an article which SashiRolls was not involved with, in any way. SashiRolls simply followed me to ANI to cause trouble because he did not like the direction that another content dispute was taking on an entirely different article. If that is not enough, I invite you read his recent snipes on talk:Tulsi Gabbard directed toward Snooganssnoogans and me. If necessary, I will provide diffs of some of the more aggressive comments, however this one stands out as being a not-so-clever attempt at accusing Snooganssnoogans and me of tag team editing, which he did previously here.- MrX 🖋 21:46, 7 March 2019 (UTC) Statement by Mr ErnieThere's really no reason for this sanction to remain in effect. The whole thing revolved around SashiRolls and Sagecandor. Since Sagecandor has since been blocked, this sanction can be removed. It was enacted solely because of the perceived disruption at AE's by and about Sagecandor (which SashiRolls was actually right about). If any problematic behavior resumes, then it will be easy to re-apply the ban. People deserve second chances. Mr Ernie (talk) 09:41, 8 March 2019 (UTC) Statement by JFGSashiRolls wrote a balanced and thoughtful reflection on what happened two years ago. In hindsight he was correct about Sagecandor, who I remember as a highly battleground-y and tendentious editor. Outside of this old dispute, SashiRolls is a constructive editor who manages to keep a healthy distance from his own point of view, while pointing out lapses in neutrality at various contentious articles. The sanction should be lifted without prejudice. — JFG talk 18:41, 8 March 2019 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by SashiRolls
I don't see a single thing in this appeal that indicates that Sashirolls understands why this restriction was applied, nor any kind of comment about what they will do to change their behavior going forward.--Jorm (talk) 07:02, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by SashiRolls
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Volunteer Marek
No action taken because a motion that would make this request unenforceable now has the support of a majority of arbitrators. Sandstein 15:18, 11 March 2019 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Volunteer Marek
The user broke 1RR two times in two different articles --Shrike (talk) 06:39, 8 March 2019 (UTC) @GoldenRing: VM has inserted WP:UNDUE paragraph into BLP article [5] and I have reverted later I saw him again appearing on my own custom watchlist [6] --Shrike (talk) 14:06, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
[7] --Shrike (talk) 06:39, 8 March 2019 (UTC) Discussion concerning Volunteer MarekStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Volunteer MarekNone of these articles had a 1RR notice. On none of these articles does the 1RR notification pops up when you make an edit. The edits themselves are not related to P-I except in the sense that *everything* related to Israel is related to P-I. The edits are about internal Israeli politics. I would also like administrators to consider the nature of the edits. The info I added to these articles is *very well sourced*. The party in question has been described as the Israeli version of the Ku Klux Klan ("Rabbi Rick Jacobs, president of the Union for Reform Judaism. “I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say it’s the equivalent in the United States of the KKK being welcomed into the corridors of power."). User:ShimonChai removed the well sourced info with spurious edit summaries, under the pretense that these weren't "inline citations" (they were). The same user has also build templates [8] for the party in question [9] as well as for the related Lehava movement (which has been described by the Anti-Defamation League as "extremely abusive, racist, inflammatory, and violent", and which has carried out terrorist attacks). I don't know if that indicates any connection or support for the party but it does raise eyebrows (just like if a user main contributions was making fancy KKK logos). User:Number 57 removed the info because... well, I'm not exactly clear as to why. Something something Nick Griffin. They also for some reason pointed to the article on the British fascist BNP as an excuse to remove this info, even though the BNP article in the very first sentence refers to it as "fascist". All of Number 57's justifications for their reverts have been vague and same for the discussion on talk ("get consensus!" which is usually an indication of "I can't say why this edit is wrong WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT). To be fair, I think Number 57 had a legitimate disagreement over *where* in the article the info belonged, although I did find their inability or unwillingness to articulate their reasons frustrating. User:Shrike him/herself has made problematic revert at Benjamin Netanyahu. The situation there is even more ridiculous. Right now, the biggest story of Israeli politics is that Netanyahu has made an alliance with this far-right, racist, "Israeli KKK", party in order to get a majority in the Knesset, in order to stave off potential fall out from the indicitments for corruption and bribery which have been filed against him. There is at least THIRTY stories on this in Haaretz. There is at least THIRTY stories on this in Jerusalem Post. There is at least FORTY, or even FIFTY stories on this in Times of Israel. It's been covered extensively in New York Times, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, The Atlantic, Time Magazine, New Yorker, ABC News, Tablet, Forward and scores of other publications. Basically ANY mainstream source has covered this story. Yet, Shrike removes the info with the edit summary that claims this is a "trivial detail" [10]. That is ... mind boggling. It'd be one thing if they rewrote or cut down some of the text, but wholesale removal of what is the biggest story of Israeli politics is clearly over-the-top POV pushing.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:26, 8 March 2019 (UTC) As for Icewhiz's spurious accusations - hey there Icewhiz, here again? - yes, I used bare URLs. This done for two reasons. First, we have bots that will come in and fill in the citation templates. Second, I often put in bare URLs initially, then come back and fill them in a little later. But here I was reverted before I had a chance to do so. I did in fact do that in the second edit [11]. I was still reverted. The whole "citations" thing was being used as an excuse. Ok, now, Icewhiz, can you explain how you can in good faith refer to THE major political story in Israel as "minor deal"? Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:36, 8 March 2019 (UTC) User:GoldenRing " that in itself shows that 1RR was in force at the time the edits " <-- I'm not clear on how the fact that the notices were added AFTER the fact show that 1RR was in force at the time of the edits. I'll be honest. In every other area under ACDS, no notice means no restriction. I do realize that somehow P-I topics are different but who the hey can remember all that, especially if you're not all that active in the area? If I knew 1RR was in force, I wouldn't have broken it, since breaking 1RR is, well, just stupid. It's kind of ridiculous for there to be a situation where "we put these sekrit sanctions in place, but we're gonna tell you about them, except for a brief mention eight freakin' months ago which you are required to remember because you got nothing else going on in your life OR on Wikipedia". Who the hell can remember some message someone left on their page eight months ago??? Also, I would like to very much point out that I do NOT have "a sanctions history approaching the length of the A1". In almost fifteen years of editing I've had a few sanctions ... three... four maybe, plus a couple blocks for mouthing off to admins from before 2012. Now, I'm not gonna hold that statement against you and I understand why you might think that; it's true I *am* always being dragged to AE by someone or other. So it may *seem* like I have been sanctioned frequently, but that is simply not the case (although I guess it depends on your definition of "length of A1"). Out of all my trips to AE, at least as of the last time I crunched the numbers, 70% resulted in no action, 23% resulted in a big ol' WP:BOOMERANG to the filing party and only 7% resulted in sanction and that's not even considering those which I got successfully appealed. I choose to edit controversial areas. In good part because some of my expertise is in that areas. But the fact that people try to use WP:AE to win content disputes is not my fault. Volunteer Marek (talk) 10:27, 9 March 2019 (UTC) And seriously folks... and admins, it seems even arbitrators aren't aware that this works the way it does (i.e. applies w/o a template) and are surprised when they find out - see User:Doug Weller's statement over at the Arb motion Sandstein metions: "I've always assumed that it doesn't automatically apply and only applies if the {{ArbCom Arab-Israeli enforcement}} is added to the talk page and the edit notice ArbCom Arab-Israeli editnotice added to the article". [12]. If you set up rules in a stupid way, then yeah, people will accidentally break them. This is like putting in a stop sign but placing it behind a big ol' tree to make sure no one sees it and then saying "but we announced eight months ago that we'd have a stop sign there".Volunteer Marek (talk) 10:40, 9 March 2019 (UTC) Statement by uninvolved DannyS712I just want to note that for the record, I alerted Volunteer Marek using {{AE-notice}} in Special:Diff/886743438. I have no connection to this enforcement request; I just didn't know if Special:Diff/886742901 met the requirements. --DannyS712 (talk) 06:51, 8 March 2019 (UTC) Statement by OIDMarek edits with correctly cited material. Reverted by editor claiming citation is wrong (no comment about the content) Marek reinserts (and on the latter occasion with proveit) showing nothing wrong with citation. Instead of expressing dismay that someone who edits in a controversial area is clearly being fucked with by tag-teaming, perhaps you should do something about the misleading edit summaries, tendentious and disruptive editing. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:54, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
Statement by IcewhizBeyond the possible BLP issues, VM inserted and reverted (in the batch above): Zvi_Sukkot insertion, Zvi_Sukkot revert1, Otzma insertion, Otzma revert1 bare URLs as citations which generally, per Wikipedia:Citing sources, is something that we avoid. This is far from "correctly cited material". Icewhiz (talk) 11:01, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Number 57Whilst I think Marek was being a bit of jerk here, I don't believe this is an ARBPIA violation. I am fully aware of sanctions in that topic area, but I saw this as a dispute over domestic Israeli politics rather than being conflict-related. Neither article was tagged with the ARBPIA notice until after this had stopped. If I had thought this was conflict-related, I wouldn't have reverted more than once. I also find the tag-teaming accusation above to be inaccurate. Firstly, with regards to the edits on Otzma Yehudit, I did not remove Marek's additions (as ShimonChai had), but instead moved them to a different part of the article (in this edit I actually reinstated the racism claim after Shimon had removed it). Secondly, I also pointed out to Shimon that their accusation of Marek not using inline citations was incorrect. Number 57 11:44, 8 March 2019 (UTC) Statement by GPRarmirez
Statement by ShimonChaiAm going to invoke WP:VOLUNTEER, and probably stop editing for awhile. ShimonChai (talk) Statement by RolandRI am surprised to see that Icewhiz thinks that an article about an Israeli political party is "clearly conflict related", since barely a week ago s/he gave the contrary advice to a non-edit confirmed editor asking where it was permissible to edit: "What yes... Israeli politics (as long as not extremely conflict related".[15]. If such articles are not covered by ARBPIA for edits by new accounts, then neither are they covered by the IRR ban. RolandR (talk) 17:22, 8 March 2019 (UTC) Statement by Nableezy@Sandstein: it seems Kafkaesque to sanction an editor for reverts to pages prior to a notice that a 1RR applies to that page being placed. Whether or not you are allowed to sanction somebody is a different question to whether or not you should sanction somebody. If somebody is editing a page with a good faith belief that it is not a part of the conflict and the 1RR does not apply and there is nothing to notify him that it does then I dont think they should be sanctioned for it. Hell, an admin violated the 1RR at the same article, and I dont think anybody is claiming that Number57 was acting in bad faith in assuming that this article was not covered under the sanctions. What should actually be punished is acting in bad faith, such as bringing a complaint about a 1RR violation where all the reverts took place before anybody ever claimed that the 1RR applied. All that is necessary here is a formal declaration that the 1RR applies or it does not (and personally I am of the view that most political party articles in this topic area are being included in the topic area even when they should not be). nableezy - 18:43, 8 March 2019 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Volunteer Marek
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BullRangifer
The comment was clearly inappropriate, especially given the previous warning. BullRangifer has struck the comment and apologised and so I am closing this with no action, but this is thin ice being skated. GoldenRing (talk) 09:03, 13 March 2019 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning BullRangifer
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2 :
Cannot believe that after narrowly escaping sanctions with a warning for exactly the same type of comments last year, BullRangifer continues to personally attack me for expressing views that he disagrees with. I have done absolutely nothing to provoke him here as I have not had any contact with him in months.--Rusf10 (talk) 18:19, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Discussion concerning BullRangiferStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by BullRangifer
Statement by Ahrtoodeetoo
R2 (bleep) 19:47, 12 March 2019 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning BullRangifer
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FeydHuxtable
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning FeydHuxtable
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Kingofaces43 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 19:47, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- FeydHuxtable (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#Casting_aspersions :
An editor must not accuse another of misbehavior without evidence, especially when the accusations are repeated or severe. This especially applies to accusations of being paid by a company to promote a point of view (i.e., a shill) or similar associations and using that to attack or cast doubt over the editor in content disputes. . .
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#Discretionary_Sanctions:
Standard discretionary sanctions are authorised for all pages relating to genetically modified organisms, commercially produced agricultural chemicals and the companies that produce them, broadly construed.
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- March 14 2019 GMO aspersions principle violation (more in comment)
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- Jan 29 2019 Warned for violating GMO aspersions principle and uncivil behavior.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.[17]
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Background
In the last AE concerning FeydHuxtable, they cast WP:ASPERSIONS in violation of the GMO/pesticide behavioral DS. Because disruptive editors frequently used things like shill gambits to cast doubt over editors in content disputes or further battleground behavior, a principle was passed in the GMO/pesticide case. Admins, please be sure to read that in the listed sanctions above. ArbCom specifically said this is a problem in this topic area and cannot be dismissed as non-sanctionable behavior when it continues. That especially goes for when editors have been notified of the DS, including trying to game the principle by not "exactly" calling someone a shill, etc.
There was also confusion in that last AE, so let me be clear that the talk page content did involve pesticides, and these were the types of edits that do involve pesticides as main cause for insect declines, the center of the underlying content dispute, being worked on at multiple articles. More on application of the DS here.
Current issues
After that, I'd been trying to work with that same battleground behavior I reported that absolutely did not let up. Feyd filed a declined ArbCom case request against me accusing me of pro-corporate POV editing
and linking that to pesticides with absolutely no evidence. Arbs pointed out that it was largely mertiless and that a motion for sanctions against Feyd could be considered. Feyd also said there, I'm not suggesting he's a shill. But one doesn't need CoI to make overly pro-corporate edits.
, and accused me of "weaponizing" the DS which is also clear gaming of the GMO/pesticide aspersions principle. Editors who bristle at the DS in this topic like that has usually are the ones that need to be removed in some fashion. Ironically, I was saying in the underlying dispute that pesticides were actually a cause of insect declines, but it seems like their battleground mentality kept leading to Feyd repeatedly painting me as some pro-pesticide or pro-corporate editor and encourages others.
I could go into more on gaming the 1RR restriction and dealing with a litany of WP:TENDENTIOUS behavior from them. For brevity unless asked, I'm going to stick to the blatant violation of the aspersions principle since that establishes the continued battleground mentality most succinctly. Due to being warned in the last AE and continuing it yet again in an ArbCom request of all places, I'm formally requesting either a topic-ban from topics where pesticides and insects are involved or else a one-way interaction ban in order to prevent future disruption and harassment. I have never run into Feyd before this, and I don't expect to see them outside this topic either, so either might work without future issues.
Feyd has made a very clear battleground mentality known here for this subject, so some sort of sanctions are needed to prevent additional disruption from them so the rest of us can actually get back to work on content since these issues above scuttle attempts at doing that. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:47, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
Procedural comments
- Sandstein, admins cannot override Arbcom and call a direct violation of the aspersions principle "frivolous". The case was declined, and arbs said to take to to the admin boards. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:14, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Just a note that Joe Roe did say it was fine to file this at AE too. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:08, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Vanamonde, the aspersions principle was crafted to be very strict to prevent comments exactly like yours because some people would always waffle on it. Arbs at the declined case also mentioned that the evidence was lacking to justify the claims, violating the principle. The original GMO/pesticide case was started in part because ANI does not handle these violations well. It was meant to be explicit that such behavior is not tolerated anywhere where pesticides/GMOs come up because not removing it makes the environment toxic and disrupts content discussion (or dispute resolution), but instead encourages the battleground behavior I've been receiving here trying to paint me as also disruptive for following the DS and getting battleground behavior removed. We're reaching a point if admins keep ignoring that and contradicting ArbCom, this will become an ArbCom matter to discuss ways to further prevent what's happening in this discussion (including what it does to editors who report the violations). It shouldn't need to be though since this is supposed to be a cut and dry violation as we hammered out at the original case, so I'm only asking for the standard protection editors who are following the DS are supposed to get from that principle, which has so far failed. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:08, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- GoldenRing, I never called you WP:INVOLVED by acting at AE even before I fixed my typo that you would have seen before your post. I saying an uninvolved admin should not be directly misrepresenting an editor as I explicitly told you that you were doing, and that it was fixable. Continuing down that path is what causes problems. We're at a point though that so many aspersions (shill-type or more general) have been cast about me and not been tamped down per the principle that I cannot address them with the current word limit outside of these procedural comments. I'm just asking the principle be enforced due to the explicit violations so I can go back to editing those articles again and work on fixing some of the underlying issues there (including some of Feyd's edits) without having to deal with the toxic behavior Feyd has been following me around with there and here already outlined at the declined case Feyd made. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:08, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning FeydHuxtable
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by FeydHuxtable
I see King's just made an excellent talk page post concerning the subject of our dispute. IMO it's a different class to anything I've seen him post before. King had telegraphed he was going to launch this AE, so I already have diffs ready that hopefully demonstrates much of the above is not entirely accurate. (And possibly to make a case that King's the one who warrants a topic ban. In fairness Im unsure about this, my own conduct hasn't been perfect, it's hard to be objective when you're personally involved.) FeydHuxtable (talk) 21:30, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
@Golden Ring
FWIW, IMO DS is now applicable to Insect Decline. I've no objection to a 2-way iban, though I agree with Sandstein it may not be needed. Other editors have started to weigh in strongly for the mainstream view. and I doubt even King will try to edit war against the emerging consensus. I don't think there's been much personal animosity in the dispute. That said, Im also not impressed with yesterdays edit to your talk. If this goes to round 4 I'd switch to supporting sanctions for King. Considering his past conduct, I can't see a trip to ANI ending well for him. That said, King also has many fine qualities, and IMO he doesn't quite yet warrant a sanction. ( I can post a more detailed diff rich expansion if you're interested in my take on this.) FeydHuxtable (talk) 13:55, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Tryptofish
I have a general concern, as opposed to a specific comment about this filing. @Sandstein: as a long-time watcher of AE complaints in the GMO area, it seems to me that you have a blind spot when it comes to GMOs. I'm not questioning your good faith by any means, but I think that this has become a problem in the way that you have been responding to these kinds of requests. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:44, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning FeydHuxtable
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- This is a frivolous request. The alleged misconduct consists of filing an arbitration case request. If arbitrators find the request problematic, they or their clerks will take appropriate action. We should close this without action. Sandstein 20:57, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Tryptofish: Your comment surprises me. I'm not aware of treating GMO issues that come to AE (which is not often the case) different from any other issues. Please contact me at my talk page to explain your concerns. Sandstein 10:46, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Editors are generally given more latitude with their language when filing requests for arbitration, because such requests necessarily involve allegations of misconduct. If every allegation was accurate, ARBCOM could be dissolved, because there would be nothing for them to examine. I do not see FeyHuxtable's comments straying beyond what is acceptable for an ARBCOM request. Furthermore, ARBCOM is able to impose sanctions (via motions) on editors filing vexatious requests. Only one arbitrator suggested such an action, and a motion was not even proposed. Even if I found merit to this request, I would hesitate to second-guess ARBCOM. Kingofaces: the request was not declined as "meritless". It was largely declined because other forms of dispute resolution had not been tried yet. AE is not a form of dispute resolution; nor have you brought evidence here from the original dispute. In conclusion, I see no basis for action here. Vanamonde (Talk) 02:17, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with Sandstein and Vanamonde93 above - there is no basis for action in this particular request and the clerk team is capable of maintaining order at A/R/C without needing requests at AE. I'm also not particularly impressed with the claim that somehow having acted at AE makes me involved. However, stepping back a bit, there is clearly a dispute between these two that needs resolving. An interaction ban seems a good outcome to try; my only query is whether it can be done under GMO DS or whether we should send this back to the community at AN. I am still dubious that the content at the base of all this actually falls under the scope of GMO DS. @Sandstein and Vanamonde93: what say you? GoldenRing (talk) 10:05, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- An interaction ban is perhaps within scope of the DS, but I'm not seeing clear evidence that it is required - i.e., that the conflict between these two is disruptive to the work of other users. Sandstein 10:46, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- @GoldenRing: I would hesitate to impose an interaction-ban here, because I do not think the behavioral issues have been explored in enough detail. Furthermore, behavioral and content-related issues tend to run together in some topics where reliable sources are not unanimous; this is one such situation. As such I think the community is better equipped to deal with this at the moment, and I think kicking this to AN would be the better option. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:15, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
Mountain157
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Mountain157
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- MrClog (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:59, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Mountain157 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/India-Pakistan#Standard_discretionary_sanctions :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 3 March 2019 After someone originally removed the content, which was then reverted, Mountain157 reverts it again without any explenation (not on the talk page, nor in the edit summary), violating WP:TALKDONTREVERT. This issue had been raised by another user on the talk page on 26 Feb already. Mountian157 also removes Pakistan as opponent of ISIL, whilst that edit had been sourced (including an article of The Indendent).
- 6 March 2019 Here a user removed Pakistan as ally, but got reverted by Mountain157 again. Whilst the user that originally removed Pakistan as ISIL ally didn't provide a good reason to do it (but at least attempted to), Mountain157 provides no information, whilst the listing of Pakistan as alledged ally was backed up by 3 articles of 1 Afghani news site (and Mountain157 also removed Afghani as the country that alledged Pakistan of supporting ISIL in diff 1) and seems pretty WP:UNDUE to mention as alledged ally in the infobox, whilst actively removing many other countries as alledged ally (see diff 3).
- 28 February 2019 Here the user removes India, Afghanistan and the US as alledges allies, keeping Pakistan in the infobox, whilst at least the US's allegation was backed up by the Washington Post and Al Jazeera.
- 26 February 2019 Here, the user that is being reverted by Mountain157 explained there edit on the page's talk page, whilst Mountain157 reverts the edit and doesn't respond to that talk page message.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 23 February 2019
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I, as a West-European, really had no opinion on the India-Pakistan(-Afghanistan) conflict and didn't touch the issue until I saw a dispute on WP:DRN about it. This issue has been closed because it is premature (no discussion, as Mountain157 refused to discuss it) and because it seemed like the user wasn't interested in participating, as they removed the message informing them of the dispute from their talk page ([19]). Whilst no mediation work was necessary from me as a result, I did decide to dive into the issue and it became apparent to me that the user I am filing an enforcement request for had been editing disruptively, whilst WP:AC/DS are active on the page. The user has been blocked for editing disruptively before, for 48h at Dec 25 2018 by Black Kite.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Mountain157
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Mountain157
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Mountain157
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- These diffs are quite concerning. Adding the claim that Pakistan supports ISIL, based on statements from within the Afghan government, is already questionable: contentious claims require exceptional sourcing. Removing similar claims about other governments based on similar sources is unacceptable after having added such material about one government smacks of editing with an agenda. I would like to hear from Mountain157 before proposing any specific course of action. I will note that this editor has been a regular at the admin noticeboards, and that their editing there has frequently demonstrated a battleground attitude. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:38, 18 March 2019 (UTC)