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Here's a pic of a table which summarizes the !votes and comments in these RSN discussions. I'll send the spreadsheet to the committee (and anyone else, upon request). I've included only editors who are parties to this case. Orange/brown means the editors said the source was unreliable (with darker color meaning stronger opinion). Green means the editor said the source was reliable (darker color = stronger opinion). Yellow is "no consensus" or "on the fence" or similar. Grey means they didn't participate. Bolded and dashed borders means the editor was the initiator of the discussion.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 01:19, 25 March 2023 (UTC) |
Here's a pic of a table which summarizes the !votes and comments in these RSN discussions. I'll send the spreadsheet to the committee (and anyone else, upon request). I've included only editors who are parties to this case. Orange/brown means the editors said the source was unreliable (with darker color meaning stronger opinion). Green means the editor said the source was reliable (darker color = stronger opinion). Yellow is "no consensus" or "on the fence" or similar. Grey means they didn't participate. Bolded and dashed borders means the editor was the initiator of the discussion.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 01:19, 25 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::I think one can use almost any source ''if it is used properly'' [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=1145985911], excluding internet garbage and outright nonsense. The problem are not sources, but contributors who tend to trust a source just because it was published in certain journal, instead of verifying information against other sources and overall knowledge in the field. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 04:00, 25 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 04:04, 25 March 2023
Frequently asked questions (including details about the summary page)
Target dates: Opened • Evidence phase 1 closes 09 April 2023 • Evidence phase 2: 17 April 2023 - 27 April 2023 • Analysis closes 27 April 2023 • Proposed decision to be posted by 11 May 2023
Scope: Conduct of named parties in the topic areas of World War II history of Poland and the history of the Jews in Poland, broadly construed
Case clerks: Dreamy Jazz (Talk), Firefly (Talk), MJL (Talk), ToBeFree (Talk); Drafting arbitrators: Barkeep49 (Talk), Primefac (Talk), Wugapodes (Talk)
Wikipedia Arbitration |
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Track related changes |
Purpose of analysis
Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at fair, well-informed decisions. The case Analysis exists so that parties to the case, other interested members of the community, and members of the Arbitration Committee can post their analysis and interpretations of submitted evidence.
Expected standards of behavior
- You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being incivil or engaging in personal attacks, and to respond calmly to allegations against you.
- Analysis that includes accusations of misbehaviour case must be refer to summarized evidence (and otherwise not made at all).
Consequences of inappropriate behavior
- Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator or clerk, without warning.
- Sanctions issued by arbitrators or clerks may include being banned from particular case pages or from further participation in the case.
- Editors who ignore sanctions issued by arbitrators or clerks may be blocked from editing.
- Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.
Analysis of evidence
Place here items of summarized evidence (with diff or paragraph number) and detailed analysis
Adoring nanny analysis
- Evidence
- Analysis
The article Naliboki massacre was vastly improved by a recent series of edits by editors with different points of view. Version as of mid February[1]. Current version (March 13)[2]. The old version was borderline antisemitic. I don't see such issues with the current version, though others may differ. The old version left the question of the participation of Jewish partisans a bit mysterious, with a few hints of yes, and somewhat-stronger hints of no. The current version makes it clear that the allegation is unproven at best and probably false. The old version contained useless info about a commission not having completed its work as of years ago. The new version summarizes what they did. The collaboration was required. For example, I certainly could not have done it on my own as I don't speak Polish.
That said, the differing points of view of the various editors, much of which involves issues I don't understand, is severe enough that it resulted in an AE thread[3] with some mild sanctions. Certainly some people were less than happy with each other. I do wish everyone would calm down. Adoring nanny (talk) 02:15, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Analysis of El C's evidence
- Evidence
- Analysis
The above are just recent things that I noticed in passing (thus, I believe these are illustrative examples), but that this is how VM and GCB conduct themselves while an APL2 case is pending, I think is indicative of their unsuitability for continuing to edit the topic area/s. Therefore, I submit that their previous indef TBANS should be reinstated by ArbCom at the conclusion of this case. El_C 00:20, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- @GCB: if what you got from the above is that I propose for you to be
Topic Banned for not removing diffs [etc.]
, then you have failed to read closely. But a terse one liner reply to my in-depth explanation is about par for the course. Anyway, for some reason, you were treated with exceptional leniency. You got an edge over others in that thread by violating the rules and then ended up getting your diff-filibustering violation retained. That is not a plus. Again, I emphasize: something that I ran into in passing. I strongly believe that this example is illustrative of an overall approach. It being WP:BATTLEGROUND, even when in a roundabout way. El_C 04:15, 15 March 2023 (UTC) - Comment by Arbitrators:
- In regards to the information that El C revision deleted, there is ample evidence which is either oversighted or off-wiki ,that Icewhiz did exactly what Volunteer Marek said. Obviously El C can't verify that and so I completely understand the use of RD under our BLP policy, but make no mistake that there has been real and vile harassment by Icewhiz. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:45, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- @User:El_C - No, I don't believe I should be Topic Banned for not removing diffs after being permitted to keep them. - GizzyCatBella🍁 02:59, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- ----
- I wasn’t aware that WP:BLPCRIME applies to anonymous former Wikipedia accounts that are engaged in harassment. It doesn’t. And El_C is mistaken. My language wasn’t “shocking”. I did not use expletives, profanity or even any adjectives. What IS shocking however, and what El_C should be shocked by, is the form of abuse and harassment that Icewhiz engaged in which is what my revdel’d comment summarized. That is what El_C is reacting to, but it is what really happened. I don’t know why El_C chose to focus on the person describing the abuse, rather than the abuse itself.
- Abusive accounts get reported to ANI/AN all the time, complete with descriptions of their abuse. That isn’t WP:BLPCRIME either.
- This brings up a broader point. The 2019 and 2020 ArbComs are well aware of the kind of abuse that Icewhiz did. I don’t know if the present ArbCom is. Certainly, there are editors on Wikipedia who are commenting on this subject who don’t appear to know much.
- There is also a social norm, both on Wikipedia and outside, that individuals subject to abuse and harassment, especially this vile kind of harassment, are expected not to talk about it… much. It’s ugly stuff. It’s in bad taste. Bringing it up makes people uncomfortable. You have my sympathies, now let’s change the subject. Talk about something else. If you talk about it you risk some other nut case out there getting ideas. Let’s just move on. Etc.
- But what this often leads to is just facilitating more abuse. There are still people on Wikipedia – and Grabowski and Klein do this as well – who really want to downplay what Icewhiz did. And pretend that Icewhiz was “unfairly banned”. All he did is just some vanilla socking with a little of slight doxing on the side. Poor guy got railroaded for some minor misdemeanors. But nobody gets site-banned by the WMF and Trust and Safety for just a bit of socking and doxing.
- So if you do bring it up you get accused of having a “persecution” complex and having a sense of “martyrdom” (actual taunt from Horse Eye’s Back here). Or you’re told to stop brining up Icewhiz because you know, he’s not relevant here or something: [4]. Being quiet about it means making this kind of chicanery possible.
- El_C's "evidence" means that I really don't have much of a choice anymore. Pretty clearly it’s necessary to really spell out what Icewhiz did. That too should be part of evidence. Ignoring this means ignoring crucial context here, ignoring all the stuff that's happened in the past four years. And when you’re at a point where an administrator thinks that referring to the abuse is “BLPCRIME” it really seems that the nature of this abuse needs to be said out loud. So that some people will stop pretending that what Icewhiz did wasn’t a big deal and that people who bring it up are just “playing the victim”. Or even try to get me sanctioned for talking about it, as it seems to be El_C’s intention here. Just shut up and take it and don’t talk about it…
- … right. In fact I would rather NOT talk about it. Even just thinking about it makes me very emotional, angry and even scared. But El_C’s comment is perfect illustration why it HAS TO be talked about. Icewhiz posted very very detailed information on my children. Including their names, school address, birthdays and even a nickname. A few days later accounts appeared on Wikipedia made under the names of my children (and other family members). These accounts began making edits to articles about rape. When that didn’t get my attention, they made the rape threats more explicitly. Of course, all this was oversighted and the accounts banned (hence no diffs for this section). But the evidence was forwarded to ArbCom and Trust and Safety.
- Was that Icewhiz or some other random psycho? Does it matter? Icewhiz was the one who posted all that info about my kids. Even if it wasn’t him personally, he made it possible and this was exactly his intent. When confronted about it on twitter he gloated and said that I “deserved it”. He also refused to deny that it was him in discussion on Wikipediocracy. After all, if you’re threatening somebody, you want them to know that it’s you.
- I don’t know who here, reading this, has kids, but I hope that you can relate. How would YOU feel if someone threatened to rape your kids? What would you think of the person that either did it or encouraged/facilitated it? How would you view the people who made excuses for this person, or downplayed what he did, or worse, continued to tag-team with his sock puppets, or exchanged emails with this person and posted on their behalf, or wrote a paper based on this person’s false accusations?
- And it seems that me having the nerve to describe what happened leads El_C to think that I should be topic banned! Just shut up, take it, don’t talk about it. Or you get topic banned. Even if I haven’t really been editing this area for the past year.
- Note that I haven't even addressed the other stuff Icewhiz did: the sock puppeting (including impersonating real life people), somebody calling me at work self identifying as Icewhiz and telling me that if I "wanted to live" I "better stop editing Wikipedia", all the other forms of harassment.
- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Volunteer Marek (talk • contribs) 16:15, March 15, 2023 (UTC)
- With regard to GCB, I did not see anything she did recently to rise to the level requiring any sanctions. I saw her comments on ANI where she insisted that the dispute needs to be brought to AE. If anything, that was an AE case "with merit" because some sanctions were made, and no one disputed these sanctions. Hence, GizzyCatBella arguably did good thing for the project by advising to bring this case to AE.
- This is diff to a comment by Gitz6666 that caused the redacted reply by VM: [5]. In this edit Gitz666 refers to discussions off-wiki I have no idea about ("I am curious to read the second part of your text about him on your blog"). In the end of their comment (diff above) Gitz6666 also refers to this discussion. I am not sure if such reference was a topic ban violation by Gitz6666, but I think Gitz6666 explains why he is so happy to see VM in trouble during this arbitration. Based on the reaction by VM, Gitz6666 knew what he was doing. My very best wishes (talk) 18:35, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- There is a history here (related to the topic ban by Gitz), but it is beyond the scope of this case. If Arbcom wants to sanction VM for his reply to Gitz, then such history probably must be taken into account and discussed. But again, I think this would be out of the scope. My very best wishes (talk) 22:36, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Above, VM writes:
I wasn’t aware that WP:BLPCRIME applies to anonymous former Wikipedia accounts that are engaged in harassment. It doesn’t. And El_C is mistaken.
Yes, it does apply—to any living or recently-deceased person whatsoever, anywhere on the project—and no I am not mistaken. You speak with such confidence about things you obviously have a poor grasp of. To quote Barkeep's reply to myself at the evidence talk page earlier today:I think your interpretation of our BLP policy is correct and the idea that it only applies to article topics is at odds with the policy
(17:12, 15 March 2023) El_C 07:01, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Below it is written:
The redacted part would have to be very, very bad for ArbCom to base a TBAN on it
(18:32, 16 March 2023). Earlier today I had said (in part):This piece of evidence is not the sole basis for my calling for
[VM's]previous EE TBAN to be reinstated
(14:29, 16 March 2023). El_C 23:55, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Below it is written:
- Comment by others:
- The issue for ArbCom raised by this evidence is whether or not VM and GCB have done things that should result in reinstatement of their TBANS. I've looked at the evidence regarding VM. I can't see the part that was redacted. For what I can see, including what VM says in this section of the case page, as well as what I can see at Gitz6666's talk page, it looks to me like someone who has been the victim of serious harassment commenting about that harassment, rather than engaging in disruptive conduct. The redacted part would have to be very, very bad for ArbCom to base a TBAN on it. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:31, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- what a peculiar interpretation by MVBW. I had to re-read this comment three times to understand its intended meaning.
- I made no reference to discussions off-wiki (with VM or others): I had no such discussion.
- At the end of my comment, I'm not referring to the whole discussion linked by MVBW. I'm referring to the link I shared (obviously...) and thus to VM's comment
Explain to me why I should bother past your first two and a half sentences
, which was rather rude, as VM acknowledged. that is why I am so happy to comment about you and Iceweitz here right now
This sentence is incomprehensible to me; I don't understand why MVBW thinks I was happy to comment on VM and Icewhitz. What I said is that I was happy to have resisted the tentation to dismiss VM's wall of text as he had done with me in the past. Instead of dismissing VM, I replied to him. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 01:48, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- Just to note that MVBW's comment has been edited after my reply [6], which is a bit annoying because now my point 3 no longer makes sense and I would have to write a new comment to reply to the new wording of his old comment (I'd be
happy to see VM in trouble
- which I avoid doing. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 02:34, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- The issue has now been raised of parties making comments about other users, including an Arb, at Wikipediocracy. It should come as no surprise that a lot of things are being said there about a lot of people. And I'm not defending any of it. But ArbCom is going to need to be thoughtful about whether there are different standards for things said about members of ArbCom versus things said about other members of the community – and whether there are different standards for things said at Wikipedia criticism forums versus things said in an academic paper. Pretty much any way that ArbCom handles it will be put under a microscope, so it needs to be thoughtful and logically consistent. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:33, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
Wikipediocracy is for discussing Wikipedia, including ongoing ArbCom cases. Volunteer Marek 05:06, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
- It is not standard practice, however, for a veteran editor who is party to an active arbitration case to: 1. Disparage an arbitrator, Wugapodes, with statements such as:
insanely biased and obviously incorrect
[...]I didn't really expect anything different from them
. And 2. Attempting to antagonize myself (despite protestations to the contrary) for bringing this up, with statements such as:they're mad they don't get to play police over here as well
. El_C 06:22, 24 March 2023 (UTC)- I did not "disparage" Wugapodes. That's your wording. I criticized their summary of my evidence, something altogether different, and something which I also did on Wiki. And yes, people - including "veteran editors", administrators and even arbitrators - talking about ArbCom cases on WPO is pretty standard. The site is full of it and they usually open up a new thread for every ArbCom case, request and sometimes even clarifications. And if you wish to respond to my comments about yourself on WPO, nothing is stopping you from making an account and having a go. Otherwise, this is like 2013 "WP:BADSITES" all over again. Thought that was laid to rest a decade ago. Volunteer Marek 08:16, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
- Well, I'm responding here. And my response is that it is you all the same. Obviously it's my wording, I wrote it. But it strikes me that you continue to evade the crux: that you are party to an active arbitration case and that that hostility (my wording) at the WPO during which, directed against both Wugapodes and myself, is not standard practice, because this is not a normal dispute or topic. I was away in 2013, so I'm unfamiliar with what WP:BADSITES was about. But if you think it's fair for Wugapodes to have to deal with you under the pretense that what you said about them never happened, or in turn, that I do the same for daring to bring it up — well, I challenge that position. El_C 08:56, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
- I did not "disparage" Wugapodes. That's your wording. I criticized their summary of my evidence, something altogether different, and something which I also did on Wiki. And yes, people - including "veteran editors", administrators and even arbitrators - talking about ArbCom cases on WPO is pretty standard. The site is full of it and they usually open up a new thread for every ArbCom case, request and sometimes even clarifications. And if you wish to respond to my comments about yourself on WPO, nothing is stopping you from making an account and having a go. Otherwise, this is like 2013 "WP:BADSITES" all over again. Thought that was laid to rest a decade ago. Volunteer Marek 08:16, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
Analysis of evidence provided by Ealdgyth and Wugapodes comments
- Evidence
- Analysis
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- @Volunteer Marek: (1) Ealdgyth did strike part of her evidence in response to your talk page message, but she also added more in response which is not struck. That summary relied on her statements:
Nothing in either source supports the first phrase "Given the severity of the German measures designed to prevent this occurrence" [...] and the next part is also not clearly related to the previous thoughts - are these fugitives ... fugitives from the ghettos? Or fugitives who fled to the Soviet Union? The last part is again, not supported by either of the sources given - neither source talks about fugitives vs. non-fugitive survival rates... so ... what's this supposed to be sourced to or discussing?
I haven't gotten around to actually looking at the sources, and a single sentence out of context isn't really enough for me to decide that your reading of the sentence is unambiguously correct. I've updated the summary to say "might not" to make clear the factual ambiguity that still needs resolved.(2) Buidhe's objection was that it was an opinion stated in our voice, but Ealdgyth's objection, present in the evidence I was summarizing, is whether the claims were adequately supported. I appreciate the talk page link; as I said I hadn't read through it, just looked to see where it could be found so that I can read it later. I've updated the summary to better distinguish between Buidhe's concerns then and Ealdgyth's concerns now.(3) If your edit summary refers to a previous edit summary, I'm going to look at that previous edit summary so I can understand the first one. To do that, I need to open the edit history, and the first thing that appears on the page is a second revert. If you don't want me poking around the edit history, don't use edit summaries that make me go poking around the edit history. As to the summary specifically, in order to understand what it is you were saying in that diff Ealdgyth links, I need to quote your previous edit summaries to figure out what "ditto" meant. So there's 3 of the 6 extra. Ealdgyth also cited that as being the what added the claim, and in order to summarize where the claim came from, I need to look at the back and forth reverts as part of why it stayed.(4) We have, from the beginning, indicated that we would be asking participants for evidence pertaining to specific questions so that we can get a more complete view of the situation. That was originally to be done after Phase 1 of evidence, but given what we've received we've decided to move that timeline up similar to how we opened this analysis page earlier than originally planned. As such, /Questions was created, and I have moved my request for further evidence there. — Wug·a·po·des 02:31, 18 March 2023 (UTC) - @Volunteer Marek: in regards to the changing timeline, I am sympathetic. I think there is something unique about Ealdgyth's evidence where an earlier question makes sense, because I think it could cause new substantial evidence. As for myself, I have a few questions I'm holding onto for now because there's no rush on my getting answers. Similarly there is no rush on you getting answers. You should not feel pressured to answer until the end of Evidence Phase 2, so don't let the early opening change your allocation of time for this case. As I indicated to you in my reply about Gitz's request I think this case could end up extending, which I know is often anxiety raising for parties. I am generally of the "have a predictable timeframe that holds arbs and parties alike accountable" which is why we did a 3 week Phase 1 to give any new parties at least 2 full weeks (the standard evidence timeframe) to participate. But, and I am truly speaking for myself here as the committee and other drafters may feel different, I think it's entirely possible that new evidence is still being submitted productively and so we end up taking longer for Phase 1 than 3 weeks. There's a lot going on here, with only some of it (as you've pointed out elsewhere), pressing at the moment so I'd rather us move things along at a reasonable pace than to jam things in based on our best guess at the outset of the case, and to do so in a way that feels anxiety lowering rather than raising for the parties involved. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:03, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Volunteer Marek: (1) Ealdgyth did strike part of her evidence in response to your talk page message, but she also added more in response which is not struck. That summary relied on her statements:
- Comment by parties:
- User:Wugapodes - Regarding this sentence "Given the severity of the German measures designed to prevent this occurrence, the survival rate among the Jewish fugitives was relatively high and by far, the individuals who circumvented deportation were the most successful." - it is indeed supported by sources, as I pointed out to Ealdgyth (which is why she presumably struck her initial comment) here. The quote from Paulsson is:
It was only those Jews who escaped whose fate was in the hands of the Polish population, and, as we have seen, the rate of survival among these Jews was relatively high, despite adverse conditions.
(pg. 35) - "escaped" --> "circumvented deportation".
- "adverse conditions" --> "severity of the German measures". Arguably "adverse conditions" included other things but the article itself is explicit that it was not due to Polish actions.
- "rate of survival among these Jews was relatively high" --> "the survival rate among the Jewish fugitives was relatively high"
- This is just basic paraphrasing to avoid plagiarism/copyvio, but it simply cannot be argued that the sentence is not supported by the source.
- Indeed, the objection raised to this quote was NOT that it was not supported by sources. It was that it was in Wikivoice. I suggested that it be attributed [7] which would solve that problem. But rather than keeping it in and attributing it, it was reverted.
- Also, pardon me but I'm a little bit confused.
- Ealdgyth presents two diffs [8] [9]. You present ... eight. You can't summarize two things with eight others. This isn't a summary but rather analysis. It looks more like you're actually presenting evidence yourself rather than arbitratin'. Your "Wug notes" also makes it sound like you're soliciting particular kind of evidence having not received it so far which also seems to over step some roles here.
- Can you please separate out your comment into the part which is an actual summary of Ealdgyth's evidence and the part which is your own analysis?
- Also, probably important to note that this is stuff from January 2021, or more than two years ago. As far as I'm concerned (I don't know about buidhe) this is water under the bridge. Volunteer Marek 23:36, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- User:Wugapodes - thank you for adding that "might not". If you need a copy of the source please let me know. Re (3) - I have no objection to poking around, it's just that is "analysis" not "summary". That was my only point here. Re (4) - I'm kind of uncomfortable with this. The "moving up of the time table". This stuff is time consuming and I'm not posting everything all at once. I'm also busy in real life so I have to allocate my time ahead of schedule. But now the schedule is being changed? Ugh. Volunteer Marek 02:59, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- User:Wugapodes - Regarding this sentence "Given the severity of the German measures designed to prevent this occurrence, the survival rate among the Jewish fugitives was relatively high and by far, the individuals who circumvented deportation were the most successful." - it is indeed supported by sources, as I pointed out to Ealdgyth (which is why she presumably struck her initial comment) here. The quote from Paulsson is:
- Comment by others:
Analysis of Jedwabne pogrom evidence
- Evidence
- Analysis
I consider this comment by Volunteer Marek and this edit to be tendentious and uncivil. The sequence leading to them:
- On 10 February, in the first paragraph of the lead, I noticed Gross's quotes about the Germans being
the undisputed bosses of life and death in Jedwabne
andthe only ones who could decide the fate of the Jews
, followed by an WP:OVERKILL on German responsibility in the Jedwabne pogrom. Why would one need a citation clutter to support such easily verifiable quotes? The quotes are on pp. 77-78, but on p. 78 Gross also says:As to the Germans’ direct participation in the mass murder of Jews in Jedwabne on July 10, 1941, however, one must admit that it was limited, pretty much, to their taking pictures
. This passage was not quoted in the lead. - The edit summary of my first edit mentions the need
to restore source integrity and article balance
by supplementing those two quotes with others on Polish responsibility, and argues that theselective quotation
from Gross is distortingthe main point of the book
. In fact, Gross's book Neighbors (2000) had a huge impact on Polish society and historiography by highlighting the responsibility of the ethnic Polish residents of Jedwabne in the massacre of their Jewish neighbours. The book opened a harsh public debate on the Polish-Jewish relations, which is also at the basis of the current malaise of the topic area. "The Germans were the undisputed bosses, full stop" simply misses the point. - My edit was revered by Chumchum7. This was a good faith revert followed by a collaborative discussion on the t/p. I did not restore my edit, but with this second edit I removed Gross's selective quotation. The edit summary mentions WP:V and WP:ONUS. Chumchum7 did not revert.
- VM reverted and commented on the t/p (diffs above) in a way that seems tendentious and uncivil to me.
- VM calls my edits
original research
and complains of mycreative and selective reading of the source
. My reading of Gross is everybody's reading. VM knows well that the whole book (starting from the very title, "Neighbors") is about Polish perpetrators. Gross's point is clear: the Germans had total control of the area, but the Poles were not forced to do the killings. One can't omit the second part without distorting the book. - VM says
The "own initiative" are your words, not Gross'
andOf own free will" and "on own initiative" are two different things
In the t/p discussion I mistakenly used the words "own initiative" but these words were not used in my edits and were not presented as a quote from Gross. The distinction between "initiative" and "free will" is therefore completely irrelevant, and mentioning it in the edit summary is misleading. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 01:13, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Regarding Gitz666's evidence:
- 1. Saying that someone's addition of text is "original research" is NOT incivil. It is standard discussion on Wikipedia. Same goes for "fairly inaccurate reading (of the source)". My comments address content, not editors. How else is one suppose to say "this is OR" on Wikipedia? Calling that "tendentious" ... is kind of tendentious itself. I'm starting to notice this pattern where any disagreement is automatically being labeled as "tendentious" or "stonewalling" or such in order to dismiss it or to produce "diffs" against people with some kind of strange alchemy. But disagreements happen and disagreeing is not sanctionable.
- 2. "of own free will" and "on the initiative" are indeed two different things. It's simply the difference between "To start something" and "To participate in something". And this is actually the main contention in this broader dispute (nobody disagrees that Poles participated in the pogrom, what's disputed is whether they or the Germans initiated it), hence accuracy is needed.
- 3. Gitz666's reading is NOT "everybody's reading". This is simply an assertion by Gitz.
- 4. In particular *I* am not "omitting" anything. I am *restoring* the first part of Gitz's statement (that "Germans had total control of the area"). The fact that Poles perpetuated the pogrom is NOT being removed, it is stated throughout the entire article
5. Strangely, in this comment Gitz6666 addresses these very same edits and do not describe them as uncivil or tendentious. In fact, they appear to view them as just routine disagreement. Yet now Gitz is including these edits in evidence and trying to present them in an entirely different light.- 6. On Gitz's talk page I pointed out how "gotcha" diffs work [10] by using Gitz's own edit where Gitz included the false information in an article that the Blue Police were "Jewish collaborators" (they were Polish). HOAX! It's this kind of "gotcha" approach that has created this whole battleground in the first place. Unfortunately Gitz has not seemed to have appreciated my example as he's trying to do exactly that kind of thing right here.
- 7. Gitz6666 has recently been topic-banned by User:Callanecc from Russia-Ukraine topics [11] for ... tendentious edits and battleground behavior. This was a result of an ongoing dispute between myself, User:Elinruby and Gitz in that topic area. When this G&K paper came out a few weeks later, Gitz jumped into editing this topic area. At the time I expressed the sincere hope that he wasn't doing this just to stalk me and try to get payback for his topic ban. Gitz showing up here with this... really weak, stretched evidence... unfortunately makes me think that my initial fear might have been correct. Volunteer Marek 01:44, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Regarding point 1, I agree that saying that someone's addition of text is "original research" per se is not incivil. It may be incivil, however, if you cannot answer the following question: which part of my two contentious edits (the first one or the second one, that you reverted) is an OR, meaning that it adds material not supported by RS? Nothing in my edits remotely resembles OR.
- Regarding point 5, you are wrong, because the diff you shared is of the 5 March, while your revert at Jedwabne pogrom was made on the 12 March. In that conversation we had on the 5 March, I was referring to your reverts of my edits at Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust, some of which were questionable, but not problematic (tendentious/uncivil). Gitz (talk) (contribs) 02:52, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
It is uncivil, however, if you cannot answer the following question
- I don't think that's what "uncivil" means. I also don't understand this question which you, just now, posed and which afaik you haven't posed before. It's obviously the second one. I did not revert your first one or refer to it or discuss it and you did not include it in your evidence. Are you perchance confusing me with the other editor who was disagreeing with you? Since the answer should be obvious and you haven't asked it before I am left wondering how this question can serve as a criteria for whether my calling of your edit "original research" was "uncivil" or not. Volunteer Marek 03:05, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
Collapsing unhelpful back and forth between Gitz and VM. I do not think this conversation needs to be continued at this time. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:37, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
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- Comment by others:
The Forgotten Holocaust
- Evidence
- Analysis
My primary interest is in historical books. Following a request for input at WP Books, I went to the talk page for The Forgotten Holocaust. I made a small number of comments offering what I think were fairly unobjectionable suggestions, based on my expertise with book articles: [13][14][15][16][17][18][19]. For these comments, an anonymous threat was left on my talk page. You will see that I am accused of Slandering the reputation of Poland and lying about Jewish communist crimes
even though not one of my comments said anything about Poland or Jewish people. That escalation suggests a severe and deeply entrenched battleground mentality somewhere. This is the very first online threat of any kind I have received in my life, and I am not a young person. Something is very, very wrong here.
I was already growing exhausted by the talk page when this threat occurred. Although the anonymous threat is the most alarming part, I would also observe the following troubling phenomena:
- Piotrus and Nihil Novi seemed so caught up in "fighting" that they fought deletion scarecrows, as if they couldn't even understand what others were discussing: Piotrus Nihil Novi
- Piotrus and GizzyCatBella made heavy use of the idea that the article is somehow obliged to represent every book review, and opposed the mere concept of removing any material: GizzyCatBella Piotrus -- an approach I consider intentionally obstructionist in this context
- In general, Piotrus' contributions were long, unconstructive, misrepresented academic norms, and misunderstood his interlocutors, as here (see the reply), and in this very strange argument about a review published in the Register of the Kentucky Historical Society.
The key obstructive move I encountered was a large number of small claims that are so strange that they are hard to respond to. I question Piotrus' willingness or WP:COMPETENCE to evaluate appropriate sources in this context. I see very alarming behaviour from Piotrus, Nihil Novi, and GizzyCatBella, which will drive away constructive editors. And I think it would be well worth investigating the IP address of the anonymous threat I received.— Preceding unsigned comment added by LEvalyn (talk • contribs) 03:20, March 16, 2023 (UTC) Addition/clarification: In case I was not sufficiently explicit, I am the editor who has been driven away. (c.f. asilvering's line about being the historian who is alarmed) The talk page was very challenging to read. I often couldn't see how some editors' comments were meant to constitute replies to what had been said (e.g., [20] [21][22][23][24][25]). I attribute much of the confusion to editors who interpret all comments as attacks. (For example, Piotrus has expressed that his reply about AfD was based on the misunderstanding that we proposed blanking the whole page. I am sure that it was an honest misunderstanding; however, I believe that this misunderstanding sprang to mind due to a battleground mentality.) In an environment that felt hostile, I struggled to keep my own temper even though I have essentially zero opinions about Poland. I concluded that it wasn't worth it, and decided not to edit in the topic area in future. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 08:09, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- (Response to Piotrus) I believe that it was not your intent to create an unpleasant editing environment. We have interacted fine in other topic areas, and I hope we will do so again in future. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 08:09, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
In general, Piotrus' contributions were long, unconstructive, misrepresented academic norms, and misunderstood his interlocutors, as here (see the reply), and in this very strange argument about a review published in the Register of the Kentucky Historical Society.
The key obstructive move I encountered was a large number of small claims that are so strange that they are hard to respond to. I question Piotrus' willingness or WP:COMPETENCE to evaluate appropriate sources in this context. I see very alarming behaviour from Piotrus, Nihil Novi, and GizzyCatBella, which will drive away constructive editors. And I think it would be well worth investigating the IP address of the anonymous threat I received. [signing retroactively, sorry ~ L 🌸 (talk) 08:09, 18 March 2023 (UTC)]Note: This analysis was moved here on 18:41, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- About current threats broadcasted by the IP 199.7.159.46 ( see Evidence presented by LEvalyn):
- I addressed those recent joe-job attempts here including IP 199.7.159.46 (see my remarks at Maybe semiprotect that Signpost talk page):
- Background: I was followed on Wikipedia and harassed by Icewhiz's sock puppets for the last 3 years. (Icewhiz doesn't know my real identity, thank God) His sock-puppets (or sock-puppets of his pals) acted to be me in the past. That was the latest attempt. - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:27, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Zero0000 - Arbcom is aware of this activity. I just wanted to make sure that it's clear to innocent bystanders as to who might be (I’m sure it is) behind those false-flags. - GizzyCatBella🍁 21:57, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- First, I want to thank LEvalyn for joining the discussion (the more editors become involved in related discussions, the better), and express my sadness that she has been subject to harassment by an IP. Second, I'd like to note that I indeed misundertood the invokation of WP:TNT and at first thought some editors are suggesting blanking this entire article without a discussion, because I've seen such issues occasionally brought up at AfD where I am a frequent contributor (at AfD, in my experience, invoking TNT means saying "this is a total mess, delete it, nothing to rescue"). Misunderstandings happen, but I believe I was respectful and polite, and when my misunderstanding was explained (that concerns were related to a particular section, not the entire article), I did not press the issue. Third, I tried to create a friendly-to-newcomers atmosphere by explicitly inviting people to make edits [26]
You are welcome to add more quotes, or remove ones you think are undue
. I did not try to have a "last word", I just expressed my opinions, quoted or linked to some policies I thought relevant, and let others have their say. I did not edit war - in fact I did not make a single revert of any recent changes to that article, even through I disagreed with some, explicitly to avoid any battleground-like deterioration. With all due respect, I am unclear what policies or best practices I have violated by making a few polite and respectful comments in a discussion (I don't believe my comments violated NPA or any other policies). If anything in what I wrote was offensive to anyone, they could've asked me to WP:REFACTOR and I'd gladly have considered this. I'll end by saying that I appreciated LEvalyn's comments, I consider her input valuable, I am sorry to hear she found the discussion less then ideal. It was, certainly, not my intention to drive her away, and if anything I said can be refactored, I again express total willingness to do so, and I apologize for any impression that her contribution are anything less then very much welcomed and appreciated. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:00, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
@LEvalyn: In responce to [27] I believe that it was not your intent to create an unpleasant editing environment. We have interacted fine in other topic areas, and I hope we will do so again in future.
Thank you for your kind words. Nonetheless, if my intent and the outcome are distinct, I would like to ensure that I learn from this incident. I stand by my offer to WP:REFACTOR any comment I made that you found problematic. Also, in reply to I attribute much of the confusion to editors who interpret all comments as attacks
, I would like to note that I never felt attacked in that discussion; IMHO, CIVIL/NPA/AGF were observed by all participants; polite disagreements happen on the way to WP:CONSENSUS and the entire recent history of talk and associated article edititing seems to represent best practices per WP:TALKDONTREVERT. Lastly, I hope you'll reconsider your decision to not to edit in the topic area in future
. I can only speak for myself, but I want to reiterate that your contribution to the discussion in question was welcome and appreciated. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- " I am the editor who has been driven away". It is not uncommon to hear someone saying "what a hell, I am out of here!" instead of taking part in WP:Dispute resolution. This is totally OK because no one has an obligation to participate in anything. But this is not a proof of wrongdoing by another side in a content dispute. Overall, this part of evidence seems to be not an evidence about anything. My very best wishes (talk) 22:17, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
In a discussion, honest difference of opinion and ineluctable mutual misunderstanding are common (indeed, if they did not occur, there would never be need of discussion). This is illustrated by some of the evidence that has been adduced in the present proceedings against some Wikipedia editors. In particular, a casual reader – one without the patience to delve into, and try to analyze, recondite and sometimes mis-characterized diffs – might come away without realizing that Piotrus is in fact a person of great tact and integrity, civil, polite, and welcoming. Nihil novi (talk) 05:14, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- Threats. The stupid threats with deliberately stereotypical language left by 199.7.159.46 on the talk pages of multiple users just as this case opens is just so convenient. Since the only plausible effect of this trolling was to prejudice the case in the anti-Polish direction, the most likely explanation is that the troll intended exactly that. False flag, in other words, and I'm confident the committee won't fall for it. Zerotalk 15:43, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Response to LEvalyn. I studied Talk:The Forgotten Holocaust diff-by-diff starting at the first version edited by LEvalyn. It had been suggested that the article deserved a TNT because of Grabowski&Klein's attack on it, and LEvalyn agreed. (As an aside, I believe Wikipedia should never offload its responsibility for article content to an external person or group.) LEvalyn came to that talk page with the claim of being an expert on writing articles about books [28] but encountered resistance. What followed after that was a garden-variety non-toxic discussion about what the article should contain and what its structure should be. It is perfectly reasonable to have different opinions on how and how many book reviews should be mentioned in an article on a book. LEvalyn asserted: "any book that gets an openly critical review, let alone an ongoing debate in a journal, is a deeply controversial and possibly WP:FRINGE book",[29] but that is not true; lots of mainstream history books get critical reviews and sometimes entire journal issues are devoted to debate about them. LEvalyn is concerned that the article might give someone a positive impression of the book.[30] LEvalyn's charges against Piotrus have no foundation; in fact Piotrus only offered fair opinion expressed politely. Agree with those opinions or not, they were not "long", nor "unconstructive", nor did they "misrepresent academic norms". It was Piotrus who asked for a 3O.[31] GCB's hanging offence was a single sentence suggesting that the article be expanded! In my opinion, LEvalyn did not identify any behavioral problems and the talk about driving people away is silly. Zerotalk 12:08, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- Response to Zero (moving from where I'd posted it to 'Evidence'): My statement that
any book that gets an openly critical review, let alone an ongoing debate in a journal, is a deeply controversial and possibly WP:FRINGE book
and Zero's rebuttal thatlots of mainstream history books get critical reviews and sometimes entire journal issues are devoted to debate about them
are not contradictory: that is because many mainstream history books are controversial. Negative reviews and debates are the controversy. Both Zero and Nihil Novi appear to read quite a lot into my comment; my best guess is that this is a battleground-informed reaction to the fact that I wikilinked WP:FRINGE. - I'd add here as well: I think my other additions/clarifications at the evidence page address your other points. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 08:56, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- I don't edit in the area at all and have no personal stake in it. I don't agree with your response but won't reply to it. Zerotalk 13:50, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Response to Zero (moving from where I'd posted it to 'Evidence'): My statement that
Disruption in the topic area over time
- Evidence
- Analysis
This area is one of the "contentious topics". But the fact is that for the past year it actually has NOT been contentious. The pattern is that the topic area has been quieting down since the imposition of the 500/30 restriction by the Arbitration Committee in May 2020 and especially since that was changed to extended confirmed protection in September 2021. To be sure, there was a lag, mostly due to the fact that it took some time for Icewhiz to burn through some of his "established" socks: [32] [33] [34] [35] (and at least a dozen more). In fact, most of the disputes between mid-2020 and early 2022 involved at least one Icewhiz sock, who were showing up to pour gasoline on a diminishing fire.
Of course the relative quiet of 2021 was "punctured" by the December 2021 WCC case request. This too had heavy involvement from Icewhiz as he was emailing several individuals, including the filer. This was closed in February of 2022 and really ever since then there hasn't been much going on (this is both why all the stuff in the G&K paper is so old and also why most of the evidence being presented here is stuff that happened AFTER this paper was published and case opened).
One way to see this is to look at the number of Poland-related (especially Holocaust in Poland) WP:AE reports by year. This is probably as good of a metric of "contentiousness" as you're going to get.
Here is the number of AE reports by topic area in 2020 and 2021. In 2020 there were seven AE reports in this topic area, sixth highest out of all the topic areas subject of such reports. In 2021 there were only three, third lowest, ahead of only "Motorsports" and "pseudoscience".
I am not including a graph for 2022 for the simple reason that there were exactly zero AE reports in this topic area last year.
It also helps to look at the trends over time. Here is a graph of Poland related (not just Holocaust) AE cases by year, going back to 2011. There was good bit of controversy in 2011 but this was mostly unrelated to the Holocaust (it was mostly related to the also-indef-banned User:Russavia). Between 2012 and 2017 things quieted down. It was the arrival of Icewhiz which changed things, as can be clearly seen from the graph. Icewhiz filed a record number of AE reports in very short time [36] and indeed this was one of the Findings of Fact during the 2019 case [37]
Beginning in 2022 and right up to the publication of the G&K paper, this was simply NOT a contentious area. The interventions by the Committee, as well as the work of several dedicated admins (yes, User:El_C, that does include you too) in blocking Icewhiz socks (even if sometimes with a bit too much of a delay) had done what it was suppose to. It worked.
Of course this doesn't speak to the content and it may very well be the case that several articles need some serious fixin'. But as far as conduct goes - which is what this case was labeled as being about [38] - there just hasn't been much going on in recent past.
(detailed data behind the graphs above available upon request) Volunteer Marek 06:33, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- As I noted in the evidence page (really should have done it here in the first place) I think links to the data are very useful for veriifcation by others. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:26, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Volunteer Marek: FWIW, Visual Editor does a nice job with tables, including tables you're copying from a spreadsheet. May be worth switching to that to help you generate the appropriate wiki code. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:14, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Volunteer Marek: I am a couple days late here but thanks for supplying the data you used for making those graphs. I plan to spend some time going through them when we reach the pause after the first Evidence Phase. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:36, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Volunteer Marek: FWIW, Visual Editor does a nice job with tables, including tables you're copying from a spreadsheet. May be worth switching to that to help you generate the appropriate wiki code. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:14, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- As I noted in the evidence page (really should have done it here in the first place) I think links to the data are very useful for veriifcation by others. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:26, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Volunteer Marek: I don't see sufficient evidence to support your main conclusions. You attempt to show that the topic area is not contentious but look only at reports made voluntarily to AE.We have as preliminary statements claims that editors have left the topic area due to conduct issues (A, B); as a hypothetical, if editors got chased away, especially newcomers before they knew how to report issues, then we would get few reports regardless of conduct issues. I'm not saying that's the case here, but simply saying "there's declining AE reports" isn't particularly strong evidence that there are no problems. As a hypothesis, we could get declining reports if a group of tendentious editors hounded away anyone who would report them, and the statements provide evidence for that hypothesis, as does the declining number of reports. Your conclusion explains the declining numbers, but does not explain the testimony we have unlike the attrition hypothesis.You look only at AE reports which you calim is
probably as good of a metric of "contentiousness" as you're going to get
. This is strange to me because we both know that there are more boards than just AE, and not every AE action occurs at AE. Why did you choose that over, say, the AE logs which are more comprehensive? By choosing the AE board instead of the AE logs, your analysis systematically undercounts AE actions done by an individual admin. Even looking just at noticeboard posts, your analysis excludes AN and its subpages which are far more prominent than AE as a dispute resolution venue. For example, this 2021 ANI report related to the case scope is not included in your data. You also do not provide data or results for 2023, so this 2023 appeal of a Poland-related AE TBAN at AN is also not counted. If reports are being diverted to other venues like AN or ANI rather than AE (which we have just seen they are), then an analysis which looks at AE only would artificially deflate the number of conflicts presented.Lastly, I'm interested in why you made these methodological decisions. I disagree that your methodology uses "probably as good of a metric of contentiousness as you're going to get" because it leaves out two of the most recent sanctions in this area. Your interaction ban from last week which makes explicit reference to this case was not the result of an AE report and is listed in the logs under EE not AiP. You participated in this AE report a few weeks ago which related to conduct on an article about a massacre in German-occupied Poland, but because your analysis stops at 2022 it's not included (it's also listed under EE so it's not clear from your write-up how your coding scheme would handle it). Are these recent sanctions in the topic area evidence of contentiousness? If so, why were they not included in your analysis? If they were included in your analysis, would your claim thatfor the past year it actually has NOT been contentious
still be supported by your data?I think the analysis provided is an interesting look at a narrow part of the AE archive, but the claims are too strong and the analysis too underpowered to convince me. The alternative hypothesis---a combination of editor attrition and undercounting of data---does a better job of explaining the constellation of evidence such as preliminary statements, posts to boards-not-looked-at, and sanctions occurring after the time-span researched. If an analysis or additional data were able to explain or refute that evidence, I'd be more open to a hypothesis that the topic area is not contentious. — Wug·a·po·des 01:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)- @User:Wugapodes
- 1. If you think AE reports are not sufficient I can look at any other metric you like me to, like ANI or AN or RSN or whatever. But I'll tell you right now, they're all going to show exactly the same thing. As somebody who edit(ed) in this area I can tell you - there hasn't been much controversy in this topic area for at least a year and really since Icewhiz socking died down.
- 2. The data does not make any argument about WHY the contentiousness died down. It just shows that it has.
- 3. If you make a hypothesis ("As a hypothesis, we could get declining reports if a group of tendentious editors hounded away anyone who would report them, and the statements provide evidence for that hypothesis, as does the declining number of reports") it is up to you to prove it, not me. And no, the statements do not provide such evidence. Frankly, the two statements you quote are self serving and merely a way to cast WP:ASPERSIONS on others. Mhorg was... disagreed with. Well, that happens all the time. Was there an AE report filed against them? Yes one, but outside this topic area. Other than that their participation at AE has been as a commentator. Francois Robere... well, they're obviously one of the parties here.
- 4. I myself haven't really edited this topic area for the past year (before this paper came out). I could just as easily claim that I have been "driven away". And really, I would have 1000% more justification and evidence for such a claim. I mean, I literally received death threats and even worse as a result of editing this topic area. Nothing even close happened to Mhorg or Francois Robere or others. Piotrus was being explicitly blackmailed and threatened in real life. Yet... strangely, you chose to focus on some users who's claims boil down to "I was disagreed with and that drove me away". Really? Do you not see a problem here with your focus? I find this kind of false equivalence on your part deeply troubling.
- 5. What editors actually left Wikipedia as a result of disagreements in this topic area? Oh yeah. User:Poeticbent and User:MyMoloboaccount, with the second one actually suffering medical problems due to stress associated with harassment by Icewhiz (and associates), according to their last post on Wikipedia. But... you think that someone claiming they were "driven away" because they didn't get their way is more significant.
- 6. Your statement "The alternative hypothesis---a combination of editor attrition and undercounting of data---does a better job of explaining the constellation of evidence such as preliminary statements" is almost completely unsupported and in fact contradicted by my points above. The only editors who have been "attrited" away from this area are precisely the ones that Icewhiz harassed. Is the data undercounted? No, I just focused on WP:AE because I know from experience that this is the traditional venue for battleground behavior in this topic area. And I think admins involved in this topic area can attest to that. But you want to look at ANI and AN? Sure I can do that. Just give me time. In the mean time I would ask you to refrain from jumping to conclusions.
- 7. I am bothered by your statement here which seems to be hell bent on rejecting what I think is very strong evidence, especially in light of your previous comments here, the necessity of me having to appeal your factually incorrect summary of evidence here as well as our previous interactions. And also your attempts to solicit specific kinds of evidence rather than just evaluating it, which I think straddled the line between evaluating evidence and providing it yourself. Volunteer Marek 02:10, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Also, of course I didn't provide "evidence" of non-contentiousness for 2023! I mean - we are having an ArbCom case aren't we? Of course this case and this paper set this top area alight again. And what is the source of this paper and this case? Oh yeah, it's Icewhiz. Again. Just like it was in 2018 and 2019 and how it was his socks in 2020 and 2021. I genuinely don't understand this objection. Volunteer Marek 02:51, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- And btw, that one ANI report you mention [39]? From 2021 (so two years ago)? Yup, it involved two socks [40] [41] (closed by User:Black Kite with comment "Various socks have been blocked") causing problems. Which only supports my contention that it was sock activity that was making this area contentious once Icewhiz was banned. Volunteer Marek 03:10, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Volunteer Marek: (1) I believe your personal account, but you decided to present quantitative measures. I reviewed what was put in front of me.(2) Yes, the data is not making an argument, you are. The data might support your argument, but they (a) seem flawed and (b) could support other explanations you did not consider.(3) You don't have to agree with the alternative hypotheses, but if you want me to believe your hypothesis you need to provide evidence that actually accounts for all the data not just the data you chose.(4) If you (or anyone) is being harassed I'd call this area contentious regardless of how many AE reports there are. Your analysis of AE reports also doesn't account for that.(5) (a) I said "driven away" not "left Wikipedia", regardless (b) you're criticizing me for not taking into account evidence you're showing to me for the first time. I never said the linked statements were more significant; I pointed out that we have them in our case record and they are a problem for your analysis.(6) For some reason you left off the full quote (emphasis added on the portion omitted):
the constellation of evidence such as preliminary statements, posts to boards-not-looked-at, and sanctions occurring after the time-span researched.
Your rebuttal has focused on preliminary statements but has avoided the latter two issues which make up the bulk of my review.(7) You can personalize my review if you like, but in this venue I serve as a finder of fact and I have laid out in precise detail why your analysis above does not move me to support the finding of fact you want. I could have sat on my hands and saved this for the internal discussion, but because I am interested in a thorough and complete review of the facts, yes, I am being specific and up front about my thinking. I am, of course, not the sole finder of fact, and if you think your analysis is strong you may leave it for the full committee to consider. If not revised though, I will make the same recommendation to my colleagues that I did here: the flaws in the analysis prevent it from supporting a finding of fact as to its conclusions.(8) If you are claiming thatthe pattern is that the topic area has been quieting down
, then ignoring two months of data which contradict that undermines your argument. Similarly, you can try to find flaws with the examples, but the wider issue they pose for your argument remains. How many editors have been driven away? What "side" were they on? How many AN(I) reports are there? How many of them didn't involve Icewhiz? We don't know, but we know there are certainly more than 0 and that poses a serious problem for your argument.(9) You should consider placing further comments in the comments by parties section, not comments by arbitrators section. (edit conflict) — Wug·a·po·des 21:33, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Volunteer Marek: (1) I believe your personal account, but you decided to present quantitative measures. I reviewed what was put in front of me.(2) Yes, the data is not making an argument, you are. The data might support your argument, but they (a) seem flawed and (b) could support other explanations you did not consider.(3) You don't have to agree with the alternative hypotheses, but if you want me to believe your hypothesis you need to provide evidence that actually accounts for all the data not just the data you chose.(4) If you (or anyone) is being harassed I'd call this area contentious regardless of how many AE reports there are. Your analysis of AE reports also doesn't account for that.(5) (a) I said "driven away" not "left Wikipedia", regardless (b) you're criticizing me for not taking into account evidence you're showing to me for the first time. I never said the linked statements were more significant; I pointed out that we have them in our case record and they are a problem for your analysis.(6) For some reason you left off the full quote (emphasis added on the portion omitted):
Resolved error by Barkeep
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- Comment by parties:
- @User:Barkeep49 - yeah ok, just gimme a bit of time as I'm still not good with putting tables in Wikipedia. I can send it to the Committee in the meantime. Volunteer Marek 18:12, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- @User:Barkeep49 (and others) here is the data for 2018. I got more details but this is just what's used for the chart. Volunteer Marek 22:04, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Here is 2019. Volunteer Marek 22:22, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Here is 2020. Volunteer Marek 22:51, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Note that of the 9 AE Poland-related reports in 2020 two were initiated by Icewhiz socks (this one by this account and this one by this account. Another AE report involved a dispute with this 5 edit account. Another report involved a sock puppet of another banned user [42] (sock sock master) that was associated with but not Icewhiz (Icewhiz complained a good bit about this sock being banned on Wikipediocracy). So almost half the Poland related reports in 2020 involved Icewhiz socks or associated. I'm not sure if this should be added to evidence or can be kept here as analysis. Volunteer Marek 23:47, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- 2021 data here. Volunteer Marek 00:20, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- For 2017, as the graph shows there were zero AE reports related to Poland. Since this case is not about other topic areas I'm not going to put up the full list of all the AE reports for that year. But the absence of Poland from these reports can be easily checked - the AE archives for 2017 span Archive 207 through Archive 223. The closest we get for that year is a report filed by User:MyMoloboaccount against... me [43]. Grabowski and Klein allege that me and Mma were both part of some nefarious Polish conspiracy but here is Mma trying to get me sanctioned, which kind of shows just how silly this allegation is. This report was related to Russia rather than Poland, hence I did not count it as "Poland-related" for that year. Volunteer Marek 00:47, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
Resolved error by Barkeep
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- Such graphs should be normalized by the number of edits or contributors in each subject area (a lot more people edit in American politics area), but the main point about no recent and significant disruption in this area is correct. My very best wishes (talk) 22:11, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, but that'd be a lot more work. I also I have it as share of overall reports but it basically shows the same thing. Volunteer Marek 22:22, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- I think you nicely demonstrated your point already. My very best wishes (talk) 23:28, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, using the number of log records on AE and ANI would be a better measure. I suspect it will produce something similar, but this could be checked. Not editing certain pages or subjects to avoid content disputes is a normal behavior and does not imply misbehavior by the opposite side in a content dispute. I do it all the time. However, if, as FR said in his preliminary statement, he was a subject of persistent harassment and "hounding", this can be a different story. In that case, FR or whoever makes such claims should provide some evidence of harassment and hounding. I did watch some of these discussions, usually from afar, but they looked to me as content disputes, where some participants (like FR) could resolve the issues by starting RfCs, but decided not to follow this route of WP:Dispute resolution for whatever reason they might have, such as simply willing to spend their time in a different way. But I can not talk for FR or anyone else. My very best wishes (talk) 06:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with TrangaBellam below that "if the ArbCom had not taken this case", nobody would be sanctioned, meaning TrangaBellam "(warning), Marcelus (0RR), VM (Iban + restriction) and Levivich (IBan)". On the other hand, there were reasons for imposing such sanctions, and Arbcom needs to check all the potential issues because the accusations are serious. My very best wishes (talk) 16:10, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, but that'd be a lot more work. I also I have it as share of overall reports but it basically shows the same thing. Volunteer Marek 22:22, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Such graphs should be normalized by the number of edits or contributors in each subject area (a lot more people edit in American politics area), but the main point about no recent and significant disruption in this area is correct. My very best wishes (talk) 22:11, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- User:Wugapodes
- (1) My personal account and the data show exactly the same thing.
- (2) The data is not flawed. Did I miscount? No. Did I misrepresent? No. The data shows exactly what I say it shows. You don't like what the data says, ok fine. But don't pretend that "the data is flawed". And if you are going to make that argument then show how it is flawed and do some work yourself - gather your own data and show that it contradicts mine. I spend HOURS on this and I don't appreciate your blithe and uncalled for prejudicial dismissal of it, while you refuse to make any kind of effort yourself. And you're the Arb!
- (3) What is this "all data" you're talking about? I checked AN/I, AN, and AN3. They ALL show the same thing [44]. Basically zero controversies. This has not been a contentious area for the past year, prior to the publication of this paper. Was it more contentious in 2021? Sure. The AE chart shows the same thing - the point is that ever since 500/30 took effect the amount of controversy in this topic area has been declining. So 2022 was lower than 2021, which was lower than 2020, which was lower than 2019. The fact you have to go back two years to try and find some controversy on ANI actually illustrates my point, not refutes it.
- (4) Fair enough, but then it is not "contentious" in the way you claim it is. It hasn't been contentious on Wikipedia. All the controversy has been engineered from the outside. By Icewhiz.
- (5) I believe that "leaving Wikipedia" (do to horrible harassment) counts as being "driven away".
- (6)
Your rebuttal has focused on preliminary statements but has avoided the latter two issues
No. I extended my analysis to include "posts to boards-not-looked-at". It shows the same thing. I didn't bother doing it initially because I knew it be pointless - WP:AE is by far the most utilized drama board for controversies for this (and other) areas, and whatever happened at ANI or AN or AN3 would be closely correlated with what is happening at WP:AE. So if WP:AE is quiet so will be those other boards. - As far as " sanctions occurring after the time-span researched" go I addressed that as well. OF COURSE controversies have been re-ignited with the publication of this paper. I never claimed otherwise. And this is not in any way unexpected nor does it change the fact that before this case was initiated the area was indeed quiet.
I have laid out in precise detail why your analysis above
No, you have done more than that. Rather than responding to the evidence presented you started introducing your own evidence: claims by Mhorg and Francois Robere. Those users have not posted any evidence or made any claims. Indeed, one of them has said they do not wish to participate, if I'm not mistaken. So why are you presenting evidence on their behalf? As an Arb. Either stick to arbitrating or make yourself a party to this case.If not revised...
What is it you'd like me to revise?then ignoring two months of data which contradict that undermines your argument
Again, this is not true. What I said and what the data very clearly and unambiguously show is that prior to the initiation of this case the "topic area has been quieting down". I'm sorry, but you are strawmannin' here. One more time - of course the case itself resulted in controversy. That's what opening a case always does! I thought that part would be obvious to anyone looking at it but I guess not. That does not change the fact that the area HAS been getting quieter.- BTW, this example of yours is not related to this topic area! So I'm not sure why you think it contradicts anything.
If reports are being diverted to other venues like AN or ANI rather than AE (which we have just seen they are)
They are not. We did NOT "just seen that they are". In fact my evidence shows exactly the opposite is true. ALL drama boards were quiet. You keep making this completely unsupported and incorrect assertions, without expending any effort at backing them up, and then expect me to put in more hours of labor combing through the archives to disprove them.How many editors have been driven away? What "side" were they on? How many AN(I) reports are there? How many of them didn't involve Icewhiz? We don't know, but we know there are certainly more than 0 and that poses a serious problem for your argument.
We do know actually. For 2022, the answers are as follow:- "How many editors have been driven away?" - Credibly, two. Poeticbent and Mymoloboaccount, both driven off by Icewhiz's harassment. There's only evidence for these two.
- "What "side" were they on?" The "harassed by Icewhiz" side.
- "How many AN(I) reports are there?" In 2022 there was one (that's actually all of AN, ANI and AN3). In 2021 there were three, four if we go with "broadly construed". (again, all of AN, ANI and AN3)
- "How many of them didn't involve Icewhiz?" The one ANI report in 2022 possibly didn't involve Icewhiz but who knows, the problematic editor was quickly blocked. Out of the four 2021 ANI reports one was explicitly *initiated* by an Icewhiz sock puppet [45] and resulted in a one way IBAN being applied to that sock puppet (before they got outright banned) [46]. The one ANI report from 2021 you already mentioned? Yeah that had sock puppets too [47]. In fact, it was closed by User:Black Kite with the summary "Various socks have been blocked". The third one wasn't even actually about this topic area although some people tried to pretend it was. And yes, that one too saw the appearance of Icewhiz sock puppets [48]. The fourth concerned the controversy surrounding the 2021 case request and originated in disputes with what OTHER users described as sock puppet accounts. So to answer the question, ALL four of the ANI reports from 2021 saw some involvement from suspicious account with Icewhiz being involved explicitly in three of them
- So yes, we do know. But I'm the one who's spending days actually looking up facts while you're just throwing out spurious "alternative hypothesis" or making unfounded claims about what you think AN or ANI shows (which it doesn't).
- And to sum up - it seems you are the ONLY person here who thinks that my data doesn't show what I say it shows. Even people who are not exactly sympathetic to me acknowledge that the data is solid. I really don't understand why you're doing this. It very much seems like you've made up your mind about something before I even presented my evidence and now are inventing excuses and reasons not to change it and in doing so are unreasonably rejecting some pretty clear cut and unambigous evidence.
- Once John Maynard Keynes was accused of contradicting statements he had made previously. His response is worth considering here: "When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind. What Do You Do, Sir?" Volunteer Marek 23:36, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- The relation, if any, between "contentiousness" of the topic area (number of AE reports per year) and "disruption in the topic area over time" (the title of this section) is not immediately apparent. I'm not arguing that this is the case with "History of the Jews in Poland", but one can easily imagine a scenario in which the topic area is completely pacified, conflict has been eradicated and extinguished, and yet disruption is at its highest, if disruption means that articles fail to comply with WP core policies (NPOV, V, NOR, etc.). As Calgacus says, "the Romans make a solitude and call it peace" – peacefulness of the topic area does not mean quality in the topic area.
- In this regard, in addition to Tacitus, I can cite the authority of Volunteer Marek's Edit warring is good for you:
If you're an administrator then edit warring is like the Worst. Thing. Ever
. A non-contentious topic-area, such as the post-Icewhiz "Jews in Poland", is the best administrators can hope for, since it means that they don't haveto get off [their] ass and do some of the things that administrators are supposed to do ... Which is "work"
. However, conflict can be good for article quality, since it prevents editors from gettinglazy, sloppy and stupid
; without it,You'd end up writing crappy articles and crappy content, simply because you could get away with it
.
- In this regard, in addition to Tacitus, I can cite the authority of Volunteer Marek's Edit warring is good for you:
- I think Volunteer Marek's essay is excellent, but if we take it seriously, we come to the conclusion that his evidence is addressed to what he calls the
bureaucratic administrator
, who is exclusively interested in avoiding conflict/drama/work. His evidence in no way impinges on the issues raised by "Wikipedia's Intentional Distortion of the History of the Holocaust", which this case should address. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 01:52, 19 March 2023 (UTC)- User:Gitz6666 I actually don't necessarily disagree as in my 17+ years on Wikipedia I have seen exactly that happen in other topic areas. However, this case was opened to examine conduct and not content, which I actually think is unfortunate (the reason why I supported opening of this case was precisely so I would get to address some of the content-related points in G&K paper!). But conduct it is, and "contentiousness" and WP:AE reports speak to that so that's the evidence i provided. Volunteer Marek 02:54, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- I think Volunteer Marek's essay is excellent, but if we take it seriously, we come to the conclusion that his evidence is addressed to what he calls the
My 2c. Or 5c, if I count my subpoints now.
- 1) What is a definition of a contentious area? If we work with fuzzy definitions, we will get fuzzy or even contradictory answers.
- 2) Running more analysis on logs or whatever is probably a good idea. I'd encourage Wugapodes and VM, and/or other editors interested in data crunching, to work on this together, i.e. perhaps Wugapodes could link to where such data (logs) is kept and suggest the scope/keywords/timeranges to analyze?
- 3) I think the "truth" is somewhere in between. The topic area is less contentious with the departure of Icewhiz and reduction of his socks. Is it not contentious at all? Hardly (just see the recent evidence from one newcomer trying to add another one as a party here, or some other examples that Wugapodes brings up). Determining trends is usefull, as it indicates whether this area is self-repairing or needs help. The right question to ask is "is this area contentious enough these days to warrant remedies".
- 4) Measuring editors views is hard. I did peer-reviewed research on this [49]. There are many methodological issues. Small samples, low reply rate, and attempts to game the system (VM addresses some of those: can we really trust what people say, on either side, or are they just trying to get revenge/help friends or a cause?). Editor X stopped editing? But maybe they are socking or "meating". Editor A claims they left the topic area due to behavor of editor B? Well, did editor A had any serious intention to edit that topic area in the first place? What is his relation with editor B, or editor C who has a particular relation with editor B? Of course, we can just say that we AGF all statements and make it a vote counting how many people blame someone? Well, I guess that's why ArbComs get the big bucks, to untangle such messes.
- 5) There is probably more then one cause related to making a topic area contentious and/or editors considering it difficult ("toxic" is somewhat pejorative). For example, The Holocaust is a painful subject. For some folks, even personally - tying to their family history. for example; for others, well, just reading about this great tragedy is hard. People can be subconciously sensitive here, or get hurt more easily, than when editing a more mundane topic. Here I discuss some semi-related issues, such as that a conclusion that G&K make about overuse of certain sources, which they associate with "Polish nationalist/Holocaust distortionist" narrative may actually be due to too narrow focus, as an alternative explanation may be that such sources are used in coverage of (Polish) military history instead of Holocaust or topics of "nationalist interest".
- 6) For what it is worth, personally I think I limited my involvement in this topic area too (note that I am still one of the most active editors on Wikipedia, so I still occasionally edit this topic area). But I think I do it much less than I used to and I also have no motivation to do any serious edits outside an occasional comment, adding a reference if I see a cite needed tag or maybe stubbing/DYKing something on the outskirts of this. If one would ask me why did I reduce my involement in this topic area, I'd certainly attribute it to the lenghty harassment (as noted by evidence) plus mental toll on researching and writing about this tragedy. I could also criticize the activities of some still active editors in this topic area, but why spread the misery? Nearly 20 years since my first edit here, I still think WP:AGF is one of the most important principles of this project. Battleground reduction should be achieved not by "winning" or "nuking the opponents", but by de-scalation and compromise. (And improving one's skills at identifying reliable sourcing, and all of that). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:23, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Arbitration enforcement log/2022 - I see only three relevant AE sanctions, including a warning+Page-block (Mhorg; AE), one warning (Mymoloboaccount;Arbcom), and one TBan (Pofka;AE). I took a look at AN/ANI and barring a single thread, nothing.Wikipedia:Arbitration enforcement log/2021 - I see only three relevant AE sanctions, including a warning (Buidhe;AE), an indef block (Astral Leap; AE), and a one-month-long T-ban (Piotrus; AN).I was checking under the Anti-semitism-in-Poland and Eastern Europe headers, and ignored RUsso-Ukrain stuff. On the overall, defining contentiousness is as difficult as is establishing why it is necessarily bad. But if the number of sanctions are a metric, the conclusion is evident .. TrangaBellam (talk) 14:14, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- @TrangaBellam Would you mind spelling out the conclusion, to avoid any misunderstandings? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:24, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- By "evident", I mean that the area is not contentious. As to the year 2023, I doubt that if the ArbCom had not taken this case, either me (warning) or Marcelus (0RR) or VM (Iban + restriction) or Levivich (IBan) would have been sanctioned. But that is just me. TrangaBellam (talk) 14:24, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- @TrangaBellam Would you mind spelling out the conclusion, to avoid any misunderstandings? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:24, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- I think it's interesting, up to a point, to evaluate how there may have been less conflict post-Icewhiz, but there may be diminishing returns relative to the amount of needed effort, to fine-tuning every methodological point. If I try to think about what ArbCom might do with this information, it would really make little difference to know that there weren't a lot of disputes going on, if evidence emerges that a particular user was causing sanctionable disruption. Exactly per the stated case scope, ArbCom would want to deal with such disruption, given appropriate evidence, regardless of how contentious the topic area was, overall. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:19, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- User:Tryptofish You're right in that there's either disruption or there isn't, but what this evidence explains and contextualizes is why... almost all the evidence being presented is either two+ years old or very recent (post February 11, 2023). People are either dragging out diffs from 2018 or they're trying to frame very recent edits, made in the context of this very case and paper with everything that entails, in the worst possible light. Volunteer Marek 05:30, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- That's reasonable. As I said, this is interesting up to a point. My concern is mostly with the arguments made after you initially posted your evidence, that are concerned with methodological details, and I'm saying that may prove to have been more fuss than it is worth. Put another way, a diff-by-diff analysis of how some diffs are "two+ years old" and others are framed "in the worst possible light", may actually be more decisive than some editors worrying about whether you needed to analyze some other noticeboard. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:39, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- User:Tryptofish You're right in that there's either disruption or there isn't, but what this evidence explains and contextualizes is why... almost all the evidence being presented is either two+ years old or very recent (post February 11, 2023). People are either dragging out diffs from 2018 or they're trying to frame very recent edits, made in the context of this very case and paper with everything that entails, in the worst possible light. Volunteer Marek 05:30, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
Jan Żaryn analysis
- Evidence
- Analysis
I was thoroughly surprized to find me listed among the main Polish Holocaust revisionists on wikipedia :-(. In fact I have close to none contribution on the discussed subject. The only notable altercation I can remember is about the bio of Jan Żaryn. From this disproportionality I may guess who were the main "inside jobs" for the article of GK in question.
- Baseless accusation of me being a Holocaust revisionist
- The article of GK says "After still more back and forth in July, including a five-part Request for Comment by François Robere,Footnote233 Lembit Staan and GizzyCatBella overhauled the entire article, simply removing the overwhelming majority of the journalists’ and scholars’ observations on Żaryn’s extremism" - the "simply removing" statement is false. The fact is that the mentioned "still more back and forth in July" was a thorough criticism of the additions suggested by François Robere. On my part I analyzed the cited sources in detail and my major objections per WP:BLP were: (a) mistranslations, (b) too liberal interpretations of sources by wikipedians to the disfavor of the subject of the article, i.e., Jan Żaryn, and (c) what is more fascinating, the provably poor scholarhip of the sources cited which criticized Żaryn, making these sources unreliable. My arguments may be found in Talk:Jan_Żaryn#RfC:_Jan_Żaryn. If requested I can provide specific examples and more explanations. Lembit Staan (talk) 20:23, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- False / misleading statements about Żaryn's bio
- Below is just nipicking, but I really have nothing more to say because I really did nothing wrong.
- The article of GK says
now readers opening Jan Żaryn’s page have access to his claims (for example, that Jews were to blame for the Kielce pogrom), without being told of their baselessness.
-- In fact, the bio says:Żaryn <...> has stated that "a significant proportion of Jewish individuals... supported the communist authorities or... joined their ranks"; he blames those individuals for being part of Communist censorship and propaganda organs, who were "deceitfully ... silent about Soviet massacres." This, he believes, "intensified anti-Semitic attitudes" that resulted in the Kielce pogrom.
-- I fail to see the logic in the transformation from: "some Jews were bad (provably true); this intensified [pre-existing] antiSemitism (provably true), hence pogrom (opinion)" - to: "Jews were to blame for Kielce Pogrom". In fact, Żaryn reasonably attributed pogrom to the rise of antiSemitism and he explained some reasons (in his opinion) of this rise, and GK made a sensationalist spin to make Zaryn look really bad. (He does deserve this, but what is "good" for a polemic newsblurb, not good for an article pretending to be scholarly). - I do agree with GK that the views (and the low quality of scholarship, and his engagement with that the "party line") of Żaryn are described poorly. But the phrasing "without being told of their baselessness" is a preconception indicative of poor scholarship of GK. For example, the bio says "Żaryn argues that the tensions between Jews and other nations in interwar Poland were mostly due to economic reasons" (well, that's not what exactly he wrote, but this is beside the point) - here is a book by Michael C. Steinlauf which basically says the same: the prominent position of the Jews in business in the interwar Poland was the main antisemitic argument that the Jews are "taking over" Poland. -- so much about "baselessness"; rather sloppy phrasing and poor scholarship, abundant in Zaryn writings. Lembit Staan (talk) 20:23, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- @Piotrus: that is probably better off as evidence than a link in Analysis. Barkeep49 (talk) 02:12, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Piotrus: obviously in the end the choice of whether to post or not is up to you. But frankly I entered into this case expecting we'd have to summarize large parts of the comprehensive analysis that you and others have done of the paper. As for what ArbCom will do around FoF, I genuinely don't know. I feel like we're a long way from that point, but I will say that I have, in some of the cases I've been a drafter for, supported giving "complete pictures" of editors who have FoF written about them rather than just the info necessary to issue sanctions. That said, I think it far more likely that individual arbs in their comments would say that they find certain allegations unconvincing than we would be to say, as a committee, that something is wrong. But the earliest I would imagine we'd start to draft the case would be after Phase 1 of evidence, and depending on how much we have left to summarize maybe not even then. There's a reason we gave ourselves 3 weeks rather than the traditional 2 to draft this in the end. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:34, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Piotrus: if you don't think it's necessary you don't have to submit it. From what I've seen it is rebutall type work so would even be eligible for submission during Phase 2. If/when you do submit it, please submit it in chunks, ideally no more than 500 words but obviously as a party you could go to 1000. However, I do want to point out that evidence of your conduct definitely has been submitted with some of it already summarised and more of that to come because I've definitely been thinking about what I've seen so far in relation to you specifically (as opposed to some parties who might have evidence nominally in their section but whcih hasn't given me anything meaningful yet to think about conduct wise). Barkeep49 (talk) 16:47, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Piotrus: obviously in the end the choice of whether to post or not is up to you. But frankly I entered into this case expecting we'd have to summarize large parts of the comprehensive analysis that you and others have done of the paper. As for what ArbCom will do around FoF, I genuinely don't know. I feel like we're a long way from that point, but I will say that I have, in some of the cases I've been a drafter for, supported giving "complete pictures" of editors who have FoF written about them rather than just the info necessary to issue sanctions. That said, I think it far more likely that individual arbs in their comments would say that they find certain allegations unconvincing than we would be to say, as a committee, that something is wrong. But the earliest I would imagine we'd start to draft the case would be after Phase 1 of evidence, and depending on how much we have left to summarize maybe not even then. There's a reason we gave ourselves 3 weeks rather than the traditional 2 to draft this in the end. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:34, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Piotrus: that is probably better off as evidence than a link in Analysis. Barkeep49 (talk) 02:12, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- Some additional analysis of the problems with G&K essay concerning this topic (article about Jan Żaryń) can be found at User:Piotrus/Response#10._Not_criticizing_Żaryn. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:06, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49 Hmmm. On some level, my entire Responce is related and could be submitted to evidence, but setting aside the "you'd have to summarize ~20k words", this is evidence mostly related to my claim that the said essay has many errors. But is this within the scope of the case? If I submit this, will the ArbCom consider making a statement about the "quality" or "errors" of the essay? Otherwise, we can only wait to see if anyone submits evidence based on diffs or claims made in the essay, and then I can submit relevant parts. In this case, if you feel it would be better, I can certainly submit that particular section (#10) from my essay as to supplement LS' analysis above. But again, do you think it needs to be "summarized" first? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:20, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49 I don't mind submitting my Responce to Evidence. I did spent many hours writing it, not far from an effort required to write an entire new academic paper. But how should I do it? Will a link suffice? Do it piece by piece by copying it into my evidence in word-limit chunks...? Also, it is a rebuttal to claims that haven't yet been made in this ArbCom against me (not a single diff related to me, mentioned in that essay, has been submitted to evidence so far, as far as I know). So I am still confused about the relevance and what is expected from me here in general. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 16:45, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
Analysis of ER's evidence
- Evidence
As of 21 March 2023 02:43 (UTC)
- Analysis
Having been warned about their behaviour at Naliboki massacre towards other editors, (AE case, reaction to case, reaction to warning), TrangaBellam bulldozes articles, refusing to discuss (Diff x, Diff y) But her rigid preconceptions and disdainful treatment of input raise the question of how well she knows the topics she rewrites. For example, she accused an editor many times more senior of "shenanigans" [Diff 1]
- This impresses upon someone that even after being warned (whether rightly or wrongly has no bearing), I have persisted on the same behaviour. However, Diff 1 is about a month-old edit that was already discussed in the AE and cited as the primary factor for the warning.
- By the way, Diff x has me stating,
There is no policy that forbids me from removing unsourced or ill-sourced passages. As the t/p discussion shows, I demonstrated that the existing sources did not support the passages and repeatedly asserted that anybody, who is willing to source the content, can restore it. What else could I have done? That article has been in such a messy state for years.I do not oppose partial restoration AS LONG AS it is accompanied with citations to WP:RS, and you are willing to take responsibility for the content.
Senior editors can be wrong of course and most of them have the grace to admit it. But they often have the benefit of having made enough mistakes to recognize one when they see it, and this is why it is wrong to dismiss them out of hand. [Diff A], No, [Diff B], [Diff C], [ Diff D - edit summary],[Diff E],[Diff F]
- What is the issue with Diff A? Marcelus speculated to an extent about what might be Tokarska-Bakir's "motive", I disagreed that we can go into such analyses, and a conversation ensued.
- What is the issue with Diff B? I objected to the contention that the information violated BLPGOSSIP.
- Diff C is not by me, but by Marcelus. How can I defend it?
- Diff E and Diff F are not optimal but part of a heated exchange. They were dealt with at AE. A strange misrepresentation of a source (see Gitz666, coffman, et al. who agreed with my POV) drew my response but content-disputes are not under the purview of this case.
TB's questionable expertise in the topics she unilaterally rewrites is concerning. She has for example opined on whether a pl.wikipedia was neutrally written. Was she correct? More correct than Piotrus, whom she was instructing? Maybe but maybe not. Is she competent to decide whether Holocaust denial belongs in the lede for a given historian? [Alpha][Beta], [Gamma][Kappa], [Phi], [Epsilon]
- To the best of my belief, I have never claimed to be an "expert" of any sort in Polish history. Diffs, please.
- I did not opine on "whether a pl.wikipedia [article] was neutrally written". Diffs, please.
- I might or might not be more correct than Piotrus - that's the whole point of a discussion (not instruction). What is this charge (?) alluding to? Where are the diffs?
- Wikipedia does not prize academic competency; depending on one's perspective, this can be a vice or a virtue. I rewrote our article on Ryszard Bender to the best of NPOV and as far as I see, my edits have not been challenged. Arbcom might be interested in this thread; expecting that there might be some dispute on the aspect of holocaust denial in the lead, I created a t/p thread explaining my reason. That is IDEAL behaviour.
- Coming to the diffs:
- What is the accusation in Diff Alpha? No ideas.
- Diff Gamma is a reply by VMarek; each of us were trying to understand the other's positions. And - ?
- What is the accusation in Diff Kappa? I did a minor copyedit.
- What is the accusation in Diff Phi? Marcelus speculated — to a large extent — about what might be Tokarska-Bakir's "motive", I disagreed that we can go into such territories.
- Diff epsilon is my edit on Ryszard Bender's bio; already covered above.
Since Grabowski, she has been editing in Poland. I noticed at the "Glaukopis" RSN post that this behaviour continues.
- I had made a single comment at the RSN post:
This is a factual assertion and I fail to see any misbehaviour of any kind.No - It appears from the reception section that there is an unanimous consensus among scholars that the journal disseminates far-right viewpoints.
- I had made a single comment at the RSN post:
A talk page I noticed cites this RSN.
- I challenged the reliability of Glaukopolis and cited this RSN. On consulting the RSN, it appears there is an overwhelming consensus to brand it as an unreliable source.
I tried to report this thread. Allegations followed, which I hotly dispute but don't care to spend my words on. [Four Diffs]
- Bish warned ER about his polemics against me and then imposed a 2-way-IBan upon my (and his) request. Arbitrators might choose to consider ER's behaviour with Tayi Arajakate when he chose to comment on the dispute - see 1 and 2. They might also wish to know that ER has been sanctioned twice — two months ago for
personal attacks, civility, casting aspersions and battleground behaviour
, and eleven months ago forabusing conduct processes to thwart content opponents.
- Bish warned ER about his polemics against me and then imposed a 2-way-IBan upon my (and his) request. Arbitrators might choose to consider ER's behaviour with Tayi Arajakate when he chose to comment on the dispute - see 1 and 2. They might also wish to know that ER has been sanctioned twice — two months ago for
The following evidence supports the behaviour pattern. Deleting reference: Diff 2
- The evidence do not support the accusation. No reference was deleted in the edit. I performed a copyedit.
Reliability of sources has some objective measures, but can this nuanced call be made for a publication you don't know in a language you don't speak about facts you're unfamiliar with? That's a *really* nuanced question for an amateur historian to opine upon in Wikivoice. Her userpage says she is an R programmer. (writing sample)
- Mariusz Bechta, the writing sample linked to by ER, had no discussion at the t/p or elsewhere concerning the unreliability of any source. Who is an "amateur historian"? What is being opined upon in wiki-voice?
Accusations of trolling: Diff 3, Diff 3a
- Diff 3: I will let Bishonen be the judge.
- Diff 3A: See the entire t/p conversation. Gcb behaved in a passive-aggressive manner with me, meriting my comments. If I am not wrong, he was warned in the AE thread on me.
Large meaning change?: Diff 4
- Vague. Nobody has opposed my (sourced) edits and Piotrus even thanked me for paying attention to the article.
Sign of issue?: [..]
- FINALLY, something that can be valid evidence. Explanation: I have tabs open for as long as a hour before commiting the edit and it is sometimes difficult to check carefully when a certain comment was made. Notifications in Wikipedia only arrive on a reload or page submission unlike FB, Insta, etc. That explains away the jarring discrepancy.
- Anyway, I and Marcelus have had many productive discussions since then such as enabling him to access a source from TWL etc.
Dismissed BLP concern: Diff 6
- I do not believe that Marek feels my additions were patently unreasonable to be classed as a BLP violation. In light of our protracted discussion, I believe, each of us saw the merit (the extent is debatable) in the other's position and decided to wait for other editors. Editors routinely dismiss BLP concerns; that is not a wiki-crime in itself. And now Arbcom willing to take up diffs, after their case was opened, meant that VM (reasonably) feels a chilling effect. So, our discussion is stalled.
Accusation of bad faith: Diff 7
- I share a very cordial relationship with Ppt91, who has noted his disagreement to this characterization at Barkeep's t/p.
Bias? Unsure: Diff 8
- Sources are unanimous that the publication is conservative. We cannot really be using their own labels; as is the case in USA, far-right publications like to market them as centrist etc. Removing self-sourced descriptions do not show my bias.
edit-summary: Diff 9, Diff 10, Diff3
- ce = copyedit which is indeed an adept description of the first diff.
- As to the second, I do not see any issue.
The latest number of periodical was presented in the press conference on January 21, 2021 in the Educational Center IPN of the Janusz Kurtyka's name in Warsaw.
is useless trivia.The bilingualism of the articles ensures a wide audience, the journal becomes a platform for scientific analysis of Polish-Jewish relations and discussions about it.
is useless promotion, which belongs only at the about-us section of the website. - Diff 3 is by Francois Robere. I have never edited the page and has exert control over what he/she/they writes.
TNT: Diff 11, Diff 12
- Bold removal of unsourced content and/or trivia is not an example of misbehaviour in itself. Circulation data of random months and performance wrt other weeklies is textbook trivia. I did not face any opposition at the talk-page.
END. TrangaBellam (talk) 09:18, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- I believe that I have responded to >99% of the diffs (maybe, one or two have escaped my attention) and I will not partake in this case, any further, and atleast until the resolution of this case, in the project. TrangaBellam (talk) 09:18, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
- The only diffs which might have been in the need of some scrutiny (Diff 1; Diff E and Diff F) had already attracted scrutiny at the AE thread on me, where ER was present. TrangaBellam (talk) 19:28, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
Volunteer Marek's evidence about Gitz6666
- Evidence
- Analysis
In his evidence submission, VM says that Before February 15, 2023 Gitz6666 had made ZERO edits to this topic
and that all of sudden, beginning with the opening of the request for this case (February 13), they began editing this area intensively
. This is imprecise. I started editing the topic area on 9 February [50] and than from 10 February 2023 [51][52][53][54] onward. I'm a bit disappointed that VM doesn't remember this because on 11 February he "thanked" me for this comment [55], which I invite you to read carefully because it falls within the scope of this case and comes from the alleged harasser.
Truth is, I did not follow VM from one topic area to another (nor did I wikihound him in the Russo-Ukrainian topic area, where I never followed his edits and indeed distinctly remember that on some occasions I avoided editing certain articles for the sole reason that he was active there). I did not follow VM to Holocaust in Poland (HiP) but I started editing there after the publication of G&K paper and because of that publication (for the purpose stated here [56] – to correct errors). At first I did so very reluctantly precisely because of VM's involvment, as is evident from this these two diffs [57][58]; I invite you to read the second one, and then, as it happens, I became passionate about the topic, as I explained here [59]. There's been nothing provocative or disruptive in my edits at HiP, which indeed on a few occasions have been kindly appreciated by GizzyCatBella [60], Horse Eye's Back [61], Piotrus (several "thanks"), TrangaBellam [62] and VM himself (I think most of your edits are fine
[63]). The opening of this case had no effect on my decision to edit here: it was neither a reason to do so nor a reason not to do so.The interactions with VM have been sparse, have taken place mainly on my user talk page (here and here) and have not been hostile at all. Besides, this thread on the t/p of "Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust", after VM had reverted some of my edits, shows that I have no difficulty in dealing with him cooperatively.
The only exception to this mutual collaborative attitude was the incident at Jedwabne pogrom, which I reported here as evidence. In this regard, I am sorry that VM refuses to understand my complaint. Commenting that someone is doing WP:OR is not tendentious and uncivil
in and of itself – I agree – but if you comment that someone is doing OR and are not able to point to their information/fact/allegation/thesis that is not supported by sources, either you don't know what "OR" means and are lacking competence, or you're trying to debase your interlocutor and mislead the others. I trust Volunteer Marek's WP:COMPETENCE. This edit summary mentioning OR and fairly inaccurate reading of the source
[64] IMHO is tendentious and uncivil because VM knew perfectly well that my reading of Gross was accurate and that our disagreement did not revolve around an OR.
Anyway, these are trifles. I'm sure I have done nothing that deserves sanction, but there's much truth in what VM implies about our experiences in the Russo-Ukrainian topic area being related to my attitude and submissions in this case. In fact, my opinions about VM's editing were formed in the RU topic area, were very negative and were confirmed by what I read in the G&K paper and found in the HiP topic area. So I'm not looking for revenge, but I don't claim to be an unbiased and uninvolved either. I made that very clear from the beginning, when in my preliminary statement I said that I was formally an uninvolved editor in this topic area
(emphais added) because In the Holocaust in Poland topic area I see the same users (at least four of them) and the same practices that led to my recent topic ban from the Russo-Ukrainian war
. I also said that I feared that the pattern of problematic behaviour and the network of collaborations that led to systematic bias in Holocaust in Poland might be exported and applied elsewhere, leading to more tendentious editing and low-quality coverage of politically sensitive subjects
, which means that I agree with Wugapodes when they say that "a strict division between conduct in the case's topic area and conduct in the Russo-Ukrainian topic area limits our understanding of conduct in this topic area". Gitz (talk) (contribs) 03:42, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
- "VM says that Before February 15, 2023 ". My bad. Before February 9th, 2023. Doesn't change the main point one bit. Volunteer Marek 05:53, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
- The timeline shows that the immediate reason I started editing in the HiP area was the publication of the G&K paper. This does not rule out the possibility that I started editing to harass you, if that's your "main point", but it does rule out the possibility that I did so because of the upcoming ArbCom case, as you claimed I did. If I had started editing a year, five years after my T-ban (that is, in the future) I could still have done so to harass you. But the timeline suggests an alternative explanation to yours, one that is more plausible and in line with AGF: I started editing the area to remedy the "distortions" lamented by G&K. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 08:22, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
- "VM says that Before February 15, 2023 ". My bad. Before February 9th, 2023. Doesn't change the main point one bit. Volunteer Marek 05:53, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- The drafting Arbitrators have consistently said that Ukraine is out of scope. I have made a partial exception, choosing to summarize some of the evidence VM left against Gitz given what appears to be necessary background to understanding the conflict between the two with-in the scope of the case. This evidence has also made me wonder if we will need to rethink this decision partly. For instance, it's possible that an interaction ban Gitz and VM would be an appropriate remedy when considering all evidence but that there isn't enough evidence just with-in the case scope to issue one. It would feel silly to me for ArbCom to let that disruption continue on that basis. I don't quite know if opening this can of worms is what we will want to do but I could see us adjusting the scope to be "Conduct of named parties in the topic areas of World War II history of Poland and the history of the Jews in Poland, broadly construed and between named editors in the topic area of Eastern Europe" (addition in italics). Courtesy ping to the other drafters Primefac and Wugapodes about this decision to include this in the summary. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:12, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
- If the conduct is outwith our current scope entirely, then I am not sure this is the proper venue for it. In other words, at the moment I feel (to use this particular bit of evidence as an example) that if Ukraine is the only area where these two editors have conflict, it is unrelated to our case, but if there is additional evidence that relates to the current scope and area, then it is worth showing that the issues extend as such. Primefac (talk) 19:57, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
- I think that explanation threads the scope question nicely. Presumably it would require evidence to first establish conflict with-in the topic area and then evidence outside of it? Barkeep49 (talk) 20:10, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
- Correct. A summary might read "User X and Y have had conflict in this area, at <evidence>. Their dispute has extended to other areas such as A and B". Primefac (talk) 20:34, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
- Can one of us not simply block or use contentious topic procedures as a regular admin action? I agree that scope is a poor reason to let the disruption go on, but widening the scope just to deal with a single dispute seems like the wrong tool for the job.That said, I think a strict division between conduct in the case's topic area and conduct in the Russo-Ukrainian topic area limits our understanding of conduct in this topic area. While the Russo-Ukrainian war and WWII Poland are distinct in time and place, the issues of nationalism in former soviets, Russian partisanship, and characterization of war crimes are common to both; While the topics are clearly distinct, the editors and interests are more fuzzy. Tendentious editors in one area might be driven to the other as we see with Gitz6666, and that's something we should be aware of even if our focus is on Poland in the WWII-era.So I think the position on evidence should be something like "conduct occurring in the Russo-Ukrainian topic area is not accepted as evidence unless additional evidence is presented showing how the combined conduct affects an area within the case scope." So VM's evidence of Gitz getting topic banned from the Russo-Ukrainian topic area and then starting to edit within the case scope would be acceptable because it establishes a pattern that results in problems within the case scope. But if it were just evidence that Gitz had been disruptive in the Russo-Ukrainian topic area then that would not be acceptable. (edit conflict) — Wug·a·po·des 20:59, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
- I think that explanation threads the scope question nicely. Presumably it would require evidence to first establish conflict with-in the topic area and then evidence outside of it? Barkeep49 (talk) 20:10, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
- If the conduct is outwith our current scope entirely, then I am not sure this is the proper venue for it. In other words, at the moment I feel (to use this particular bit of evidence as an example) that if Ukraine is the only area where these two editors have conflict, it is unrelated to our case, but if there is additional evidence that relates to the current scope and area, then it is worth showing that the issues extend as such. Primefac (talk) 19:57, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
- The drafting Arbitrators have consistently said that Ukraine is out of scope. I have made a partial exception, choosing to summarize some of the evidence VM left against Gitz given what appears to be necessary background to understanding the conflict between the two with-in the scope of the case. This evidence has also made me wonder if we will need to rethink this decision partly. For instance, it's possible that an interaction ban Gitz and VM would be an appropriate remedy when considering all evidence but that there isn't enough evidence just with-in the case scope to issue one. It would feel silly to me for ArbCom to let that disruption continue on that basis. I don't quite know if opening this can of worms is what we will want to do but I could see us adjusting the scope to be "Conduct of named parties in the topic areas of World War II history of Poland and the history of the Jews in Poland, broadly construed and between named editors in the topic area of Eastern Europe" (addition in italics). Courtesy ping to the other drafters Primefac and Wugapodes about this decision to include this in the summary. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:12, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- I do think that generally Ukraine-Russia is outside the scope - this is a specific instance however where one user seems to have followed another user from THAT topic area to THIS topic area to try and get back at them for the topic ban they received in THAT area. It's specific to Gitz6666. Volunteer Marek 17:52, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
- When I saw the paper by G&K, I took a part in discussion at Village pump and made a general comment. That is what Gitz6666 responded: [65]. After reading his response, I thought: "What a bad luck, what kind of terrible vengeance Gitz6666 is going to exact?!" And I started editing page "A terrible vengeance" [66] by Gogol. Everything Gitz6666 was doing after that was more or less predictable. Just to clarify, I am not advocating for any sanctions for Gitz. Perhaps he contributed just fine in the subject area covered by this case. I did not check it. Yes, I think his evidence is poor, but this is his evidence. His main weakness is constantly making misinterpretations, even in his response to me (the diff above). I am saying "This [Wikipedia content] is not a high quality content by professional historians one would expect to receive as a publication in a journal". He responds I am "not qualified to claim that" as if I was saying something about article by G&K. Yes, I do think their work was problematic, but that is not what I was saying.My very best wishes (talk) 22:56, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
Analysis of HEB "Reliable Sources Noticeboard"
- Analysis
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- I just finished going through Horse Eye Back's evidence from RSN and hope to give more details later, but the thing that immediately jumps out from looking at these in toto is how many of the pre-2023 RSN discussions were dominated by Icewhiz's socks. There are six pre-2023 discussions listed there (I'm also excluding Encyclopedia of Ukraine one) and of those THREE were initiated by Icewhiz socks (in particular User:Bob not snob) and all saw very heavy involvement from his socks - in one of the discussions (on Oko press) he had FIVE (!!!!) essentially confirmed socks and two more likely ones, all !voting the same way. That would make him casting more than half of the total !votes all by himself. Is there any wonder this area was such a mess? Volunteer Marek 23:08, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
Here's a pic of a table which summarizes the !votes and comments in these RSN discussions. I'll send the spreadsheet to the committee (and anyone else, upon request). I've included only editors who are parties to this case. Orange/brown means the editors said the source was unreliable (with darker color meaning stronger opinion). Green means the editor said the source was reliable (darker color = stronger opinion). Yellow is "no consensus" or "on the fence" or similar. Grey means they didn't participate. Bolded and dashed borders means the editor was the initiator of the discussion. Volunteer Marek 01:19, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
- I think one can use almost any source if it is used properly [68], excluding internet garbage and outright nonsense. The problem are not sources, but contributors who tend to trust a source just because it was published in certain journal, instead of verifying information against other sources and overall knowledge in the field. My very best wishes (talk) 04:00, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
Template
- Evidence
- Analysis
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Reliable Sources Noticeboard
Template
- Evidence
- Analysis
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Questions/Requests from Arbitrators
This section should be edited only by Arbitrators and Clerks. Any response to questions/requests posed here should be done on the Evidence page or done above as a section under #Analysis of evidence as appropriate.
- I haven't looked through the talk page archive or correlated any of it to these reverts. If we're looking at how conduct might impact article and source quality, a deeper dive into interactions like these is probably the direction we should go. If people on the talk page are looking for something to do, I'd appreciate evidence submissions which look deeper into this and other issues raised by Ealdgyth. — Wug·a·po·des 02:04, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Regarding #Icewhiz socks presented by GizzyCatBella - are there any instances where FR and Icewhiz (or his socks) disagree? I have no issue with the information as presented currently, but I do not want a false dichotomy of "FR and IW always agree" if there are instances where this is not the case. In other words, right now you have indicated 100% support between these two, which seems somewhat unlikely (though not impossible), and I would rather get a better idea of the real value for that agreement percent. Primefac (talk) 08:47, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
- I would be interested in hearing more perspectives/evidence about what happened at Jan Żaryn RfCs 1, 2. Barkeep49 (talk) 00:15, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- Lembit Staan: particularly want to hear your thinking (both at the time and now) about your participation in those discussions. Barkeep49 (talk) 00:15, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- What does the conduct of named parties at noticeboard discussions (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_333#Mass_removal_of_criticisms_from_the_Polish_Institute_of_National_Remembrance) show and tell us? Barkeep49 (talk) 00:15, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- Want to hear more perspectives/evidence about why RfCs in the topic area would attract a small, but reasonable, number of participants but then fail to be closed. Examples include the Jan Żaryn RfCs, Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_355#RfC:_Polish_sources, and Talk:Justice_for_Uncompensated_Survivors_Today_Act_of_2017#RfC:_Mentioning_the_protests_against_the_law. Barkeep49 (talk) 00:15, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- Piotrus provided examples of changes to his editing over time. I would be interested in similar evidence from/about other long time editors in this topic area, particularly from Volunteer Marek and François Robere. Barkeep49 (talk) 00:15, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- I too am interested in this. It does not necessarily have to be a personal reflection, so if someone notices someone else's behaviour improving/declining/etc over time that would be useful information to have. Primefac (talk) 10:50, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- In retrospect, what went wrong and right in the editing and talk page discussions of History of the Jews in Poland in Feb - June 2019? Barkeep49 (talk) 00:15, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- It feels like several of the discussions since the release of the paper have been better at finding consensus and that some of the conduct issues I observe haven't spiraled out of control. One explanation for this is the absence of Icewhiz. I would be curious to hear any evidence and analysis about other reasons this might have been the case. Barkeep49 (talk) 00:15, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Piotrus: how do you decide when to publicly discuss something with another editor/admin/arb and when to email that editor/admin/arb? Barkeep49 (talk) 15:00, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
- I am somewhat concerned by the timeline in the Zygmunt Krasiński and The Undivine Comedy section presented by François Robere. The other sections around it can be reasonably explained by watchlists, but the timeline in this section is a bit more suspect. Volunteer Marek, how is it that you came to learn of Mellow Boris and their edits to Zygmunt Krasiński, which you reverted wholesale in Special:Permalink/958695415? Primefac (talk) 11:47, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- I would appreciate more clarity around potential conflicts of interest and how to assess their impact moving forward. We already have in evidence a few examples of editors modifying the BLP of a subject who has criticized them, publishing articles (both in the press and on-wiki) about BLP subjects who criticize them, and removing sources in which editors are criticized. To me it seems like there is a potential conflict between the the personal or professional interests of some editors and the interests of the encyclopedia. Put another way, I'm puzzling over how to interpret this line from the COI guideline:
[Subject mater experts] are expected to make sure that their external roles and relationships in their field of expertise do not interfere with their primary role on Wikipedia.
There's obviously a scholarly dispute underlying this case. To be perfectly clear, the Arbitration Committee will not resolve that scholarly dispute because it is outside our jurisdiction. What we may consider, though, is how to manage potential conflicts of interest when editor-scholars become embroiled with external scholarly disputes, particularly when that "external role[ or] relationship[]" appears to "interfere with their primary role on Wikipedia". There's no hard line here, as the COI guideline saysHow close the relationship needs to be before it becomes a concern on Wikipedia is governed by common sense
, but I think we need to examine the potential conflict given that a public feud between Grabowski and specific editors has been ongoing for multiple years across multiple venues including on-wiki.So this is all framing for two questions that I would like evidence or analysis on:- To what extent have potential conflicts of interest been a problem in this topic area? We've seen a handful of examples, but there is a big difference between editors with a COI adding uncontroversial facts and those writing whole articles on the subject they have a COI regarding. Have potential conflicts of interest actually been an issue?
- To what extent might potential conflicts of interest be a problem moving forward? For example, it seems like editing of the Jan Grabowski biography stopped after WP:BLPCOI was raised as a concern, and the COIN thread resolved. If there are potential conflicts of interest, do they pose a substantial risk moving forward or have they been resolved through other processes already?
— Wug·a·po·des 21:59, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Ealdgyth: thanks for your latest thoughts about the topic area and for noting that you were driven from the topic area. Your displeasure with the topic area and with ArbCom has been clear throughout this case. What's less clear to me is what you'd actually like done. For all of the other parties that have participated in the case to the extent that you have I have some clear idea. Your displeasure is so clear and your the frustration you seem to feel is palpable and so I'd kind of thought you'd just written the whole topic area off. But your last paragraph suggests I have that wrong and you think something can be done, I just don't understand what. For instance, are you suggesting that the source restriction be repealed? If not, what are you suggesting be done with it given your thoughts about the Buidhe AE request? Barkeep49 (talk) 16:46, 26 April 2023 (UTC)