MichaelNetzer (talk | contribs) →Conduct of WGFinley in AE: What uninvolved refers to. |
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:To me, it looks like he was trying to identify whether it was in Israel or Syria. If he had searched for something like "mr hermon israel" I would agree with you, but it really looks like he was just looking for sources that discuss the topic. |
:To me, it looks like he was trying to identify whether it was in Israel or Syria. If he had searched for something like "mr hermon israel" I would agree with you, but it really looks like he was just looking for sources that discuss the topic. |
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:If you file an AE case, please also look into WGFinley's misconduct in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#YehudaTelAviv64 this AE] and the discussion at the bottom of this talk page. Thank you. [[User:YehudaTelAviv64|YehudaTelAviv64]] ([[User talk:YehudaTelAviv64|talk]]) 16:29, 12 December 2011 (UTC) |
:If you file an AE case, please also look into WGFinley's misconduct in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#YehudaTelAviv64 this AE] and the discussion at the bottom of this talk page. Thank you. [[User:YehudaTelAviv64|YehudaTelAviv64]] ([[User talk:YehudaTelAviv64|talk]]) 16:29, 12 December 2011 (UTC) |
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You've been [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement&diff=465531127&oldid=465526874 reported] to A/E. Sorry I couldn't give you more time to respond, but I reread the JJG case and I am confident that you have never addressed the issue of misrepresentation of sources. -[[User:Asad112|asad]] ([[User talk:Asad112|talk]]) 22:23, 12 December 2011 (UTC) |
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== Conduct of WGFinley in AE == |
== Conduct of WGFinley in AE == |
Revision as of 22:23, 12 December 2011
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Nableezy AE case
Case Concluded |
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I'm sorry, but I must strongly disagree with some of your comments in this case. Nableezy made one revert, of two for the show. He then came up with a compromise edit which eliminated, or should have eliminated, the source of friction, by simply substituting "Israeli occupied territories" in place of the disputed list of territories. That was a good solution in my view, and the dispute should have ended there, except that an IP (since blocked), clearly bent on harassment of Nableezy, then began reverting him. Quite frankly I am getting extremely tired of seeing admins in effect enabling disruptive users by rewarding them with blocks and bans of the opponents they set out to harass. There is no moral equivalence here. Users are entitled to edit pages responsibly without fear of sanction. Gatoclass (talk) 04:05, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
You're correct, if you can't see he's the owner of: P-I Related Topic Bans
Interaction Bans
and four related blocks and that's not from TE? We truly don't have any more to discuss because that could well be the definition of WP:TE. He's had numerous chances to remediate his behavior in the topic space and doesn't appear to have any intention to do so. --WGFinley (talk) 18:42, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
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No, really, this is CONCLUDED, please don't continue |
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Just to set the record straight, this comment by User:Gatoclass (an involved Admin in the topic area) has no basis in reality: "On the contrary, every time Nableezy has taken a longstanding dispute to the wider community, his position has been endorsed and that of his opponents rejected." In fact User:Nableezy has initiated several AEs recently that have been rejected as inactionable and/or been altogether ignored by the Admins at AE. Off the top of my head, see for example this, this and this. Gatoclass' conclusion, "That ought to tell you something about who is contributing positively to the topic area and who is not," is actually quite ironic.—Biosketch (talk) 11:55, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
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AE case about Jiujitsuguy may be ready to close
The request at WP:AE#Jiujitsuguy might close without action, but you have raised the question of an interaction ban. "Seems we have a consensus to close, is there a support for an interaction ban for JJG and Nableezy perhaps modeled on the one with Cptnono last year?" This might be considered but I think it would take some evidence (diffs showing personal attacks or whatever). Do you want to add a couple of sentences on why an interaction ban is needed? I was thinking of closing the request myself with no sanction but saw that this item was not answered or resolved. If you are not around, I will try to do something anyway. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 02:42, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
- I agree, there's no consensus for the interaction ban, just with two of them filing on each other I thought it may be appropriate. I just closed it out as there wasn't any support for that vocalized. --WGFinley (talk) 05:42, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps you didn't notice the diffs provided by Nableezy that showed a long-term habit of Jiujitsuguy falsifying what sources say, or the message from T. Canens in which he acknowledged those problematic diffs and wrote "I think a topic ban is in order." — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 06:41, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- Nope, I didn't, I have reopened the case, thanks for bringing my error to my attention. --WGFinley (talk) 06:46, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 06:56, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
AE decision
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I do not understand this action at all. For one the editor who actually filed the report had at the end suggested possibly moving it off AE as the editor felt it was no longer as serious. Not to mention that, since the main objection any of these editors raised (including the main issue you raised) was me not discussing changes before making them, your decision to bar me from all related talk pages as well seems excessive and contrary to what you claimed was the issue. So, what exactly did you think justified barring from me the talks pages as well as editing despite the editor who filed the request having a change of heart and suggesting my actions may not warrant the more extreme sanctions that result from AE?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 06:06, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
I have some concerns about this AE decision. Most significantly, if you are going to ban a user, then you should always read what they have to say, so citing TL;DR is not encouraging. Drawing the implication that "coming off a block" implies "a topic ban is in order" is also an inference requiring more justification. User:The Devil's Advocate, as the username suggest, makes comments which can be helpful in drawing editors' attention to problems (e.g. of maintenance) that they may face if they are not scrupulously neutral and fact-based in their approach to controversial topics: the most recent example is this edit about quantifying "evidence". I am entirely unsurprised that making comments of this nature leads TDA into conflict situations, and TDA's own conduct may be imperfect as a consequence. However, we should take care not to shoot the messenger. Editors who seek to encourage an encyclopedic treatment of a controversial subject, may, like TDA, find themselves regarded as POV pushing conspiracy theorists, when instead they are simply trying to help improve the encyclopedia. Geometry guy 23:37, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
Should you wish to appeal your TBAN at a later time you can post a new section for me to reconsider. --WGFinley (talk) 18:48, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Detailed information was on the AE report, I acted per the AE report, I'm sorry you don't accept my decision but it is my decision nonetheless. --WGFinley (talk) 02:35, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
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I asked some reasonable questions, I would like to get real answers to those questions.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 09:03, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Re dispute resolution
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That's drawing us into content where we shouldn't be going WG, I'm afraid that this comment of yours demonstrates that you simply aren't up to speed with the current state of play at AE. Over the last 18 months, administrators have increasingly recognized that simply handing out speeding tickets for technical violations, while ignoring obvious abuses like misrepresentation of sources or adding outright falsehoods, doesn't work. You are trying to drag AE back into an earlier era where civil POV pushers could run rampant while those attempting to prevent their abuse were given no support from dispute resolution or even penalized for trying to do the right thing. I would strongly urge you to read the comments collected by NuclearWarfare at his candidate guide, under the "On administration" section, they summarize the problem very well in my view. Gatoclass (talk) 16:32, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
Fabricating the content of sources is not a content dispute. I have asked several questions of you at AE, but as you have ignored them there I bring them to your attention here. You wrote I don't see what he did on Mount Hermon other than to point out there's a ski resort there and added a travel guide as source for information on that. That is simply wrong. Jiujitsuguy did not write anything about a ski resort there, and if you actually looked at the diffs you would not say that. In this diff Jiujitsuguy took a source that says Mount Hermon reaches 9232 feet, but its peak is actually located on the border between Lebanon and Syria. and he changed the article from saying Mount Hermon's summit straddles the border between Lebanon and Syria to Mount Hermon's summit straddles the border between Lebanon, Israel and Syria. In this diff he took a source that says The summit of Mt. Hermon—famous as Israel's highest mountain, at 9,230 feet above sea level—is actually in Syrian territory and dishonestly claimed that what the source says is just Mt. Hermon, famous as Israel's highest mountain full stop. He deliberately manipulated the sources into supporting his own view, a view that those sources directly contradict. For a user already banned for falsifying sources, this should be taken seriously. Can you please say that a. you have read the diffs, and b. why you claim that the only thing he did was use a travel guide for the location of a ski resort, and c. now that this has been, once again, explained, if there is a problem with a user with an established record of falsifying sources to push a POV to continue falsifying sources to push that same POV? nableezy - 14:45, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
The fact you call out something that was on my talk page for all of 2 minutes pretty much shows to me where you are coming from on this. No, I won't recuse myself from commenting on AE. --WGFinley (talk) 20:47, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
I have explained my position on AE, I will no longer discuss this with you here. You refuse to acknowledge any previous explanation I give you. Cease and desist. --WGFinley (talk) 04:55, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
I've explained to you multiple times this is not the venue I will discuss this with you, I have posted my positions on WP:AE. This is your final warning, if you choose to pursue this further on my talk page I will remove it and request further action be taken. Just because I'm an admin doesn't mean you can ask me whatever you want, however many times you want, however many ways you want. --WGFinley (talk) 06:24, 2 December 2011 (UTC) |
Hi
Maybe I have simply overlooked it, but I just reread the entire thread twice before posting here. But you could you please, for the sake of me not suing the Dallas Independent School District because one of their former students suddenly forgot how to read in his mid-20s, point me to where in the JJG A/E thread where you have answered this and this? You don't technically "owe" anyone anything, but as an admin and someone who is adjudicating A/E cases it wouldn't hurt if you answered the question again (even though I haven't seen it) when there are a series of editors asking the same question. -asad (talk) 03:31, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- I explained my position on WP:AE. --WGFinley (talk) 04:54, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- I think if you just called me illiterate it would be better for both of us. Because either I am illiterate or just plain insane, because for the life of me, I don't see a response ANYWHERE to the two diffs I just linked. Oh well, I'm outta here before you "discussion close" this one too (as you have made it crystal clear you are not interested in any non-admin challenging your stubborn A/E adjudicating strategies even the slightest). See ya. -asad (talk) 05:45, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Requirement to discuss changes on talk at Golan Heights
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Hello WGF. YTA64 is complaining at WP:AN3 that Biosketch reverted him at Golan Heights without explaining his revert on the talk page. His authority that a discussion is required seems to come from this change to the Editnotice for Golan Heights which is your work. . (At present I can only find it in the edit notice). if you placed this notice pursuant to the discretionary sanctions it is desirable that it should be logged somewhere in WP:ARBPIA. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 17:13, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, but I don't think it's appropriate to unilaterally change the conditions of editing one page in such a manner. Editors unfamiliar with the current debate are hardly likely to notice that the conditions of editing on this particular page are different from all the others. With regard to the notion of making an across-the-board change, that should not be done without an appropriate discussion in my view. I for one believe it is unnecessary, all it will effectively mean is that users have to add an edit summary to both the edit summary field and the talk page; this is just going to clutter up talk pages. It also flies in the face of BRD, the spirit of which is to allow a reasonable amount of editing without having to discuss the minutiae of every change. Gatoclass (talk) 06:35, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
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Golan Heights request
Fixed, thank you. |
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I'm not sure whether you'd prefer to see this at WP:AN3, but would you please look at this? (permalink) I've asked Ed Johnston to do the same. – OhioStandard (talk) 22:56, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
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1RR broken by YTA64 in golan heights?
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Did you see my note at WP:AE about apparent 1RR violation by the user:YehudaTelAviv64?--Shrike (talk) 20:22, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
[6] [7] --Shrike (talk) 20:34, 4 December 2011 (UTC) Thanks, I've warned both of them, Gillabrand for being less than accurate in his edit remarks and YTA for violating 1RR. He reverted an undiscussed revert but he's splitting hairs and have let him know he's very close to an article ban. --WGFinley (talk) 20:49, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
You don't log warnings on ARBPIA, only the initial notification of sanctions, blocks and bans. Indeed, I'm giving YTA a warning because of the claim of being new, I know some consider the account a sock but no evidence has been offered and it hasn't been proven so I must AGF. My warning is on his/her talk page and I'm very certain all you kind folks will be ready willing and able to let any other admin who isn't me know if I'm not around that I've warned him. S/He seems to have quite the fan club already. --WGFinley (talk) 14:16, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
Jalapenos do exist (talk · contribs) is warned not to misrepresent sources, per this AE request. Sandstein 16:37, 16 March 2011 (UTC) Does Sandstein made a mistake?--Shrike (talk) 14:36, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
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A barnstar for you!
The Admin's Barnstar | |
For your efforts. Shrike (talk) 16:33, 5 December 2011 (UTC) |
Totally missed this, thanks very much Shrike! --WGFinley (talk) 14:30, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
How, exactly, is Badger Drink supposed to email you? Be specific. Will you ever quit Wikipedia? If so, how is Badger Drink supposed to contest his block? Be specific. Hipocrite (talk) 16:42, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry it took me a minute to process it all, I think you will see I was very specific on his talk page. --WGFinley (talk) 16:50, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- Not really. You failed to provide unblock-en-l's address. You missed the appropriate arbcom page. I've provided him all of those contact details. Hipocrite (talk) 17:01, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- No, Arbcom links to the process and if he follows it as outlined he will get there. The process is not to just immediately email Arbcom. That is the proper page, it is for bans and indefinite blocks. Whatever the case I have restored his email and edit talk privileges. --WGFinley (talk) 17:03, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- Not really. You failed to provide unblock-en-l's address. You missed the appropriate arbcom page. I've provided him all of those contact details. Hipocrite (talk) 17:01, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, I'm fine with any changes you've made to his block. DS (talk) 17:07, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm fine with restoring email. I am somewhat concerned about restoring talk-page; I hope you will closely monitor it, and you will re-remove that access if there is a repeat of the absurd, unacceptable tirade here. Of course, I hope that BD will understand the necessity of civil behaviour on this project, and will resume constructive editing.
I have concerns about your admonishment of Pesky; however, nothing is on-fire right now, and I hope we can discuss that in a calm, collegiate manner, as a separate issue; I see no need for haste.
I will comment on this further, within the next few days. Best, Chzz ► 18:49, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- In closing the case I found others felt she contributed to the situation, I'm making her aware of that. She can take that and move on from it or she can continue with behavior others find objectionable. That won't lead to very harmonious editing for her and I'm trying to help her realize that. I have Badger's page on watch, approval of the admin who did the block to modify it and will take or suggest action if needed. --WGFinley (talk) 19:04, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry to butt in and pester you further, WGFinley, and I really don't mean to be rude or annoying, but a lot of people in the thread also said she did nothing wrong. I saw no clear consensus that Pesky was guilty of hounding. Why would you admonish her only based on the arguments of a few people, arguments that were not exactly unopposed? That doesn't make sense to me. Regards, OohBunnies!Leave a message :) 20:32, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
ANI is the Administrator's Noticeboard, it's when people bring something to the attention of admins for action. Then uninvolved admins review the case and take action. I reviewed the various statements and what both parties said, supported Badger's block and assessed that several felt Pesky was not without fault and I agreed. She took him to AN/I, then to RFC/U, then came back a month later to reassess his progress herself after he had previously let her know her comments weren't welcome on his talk page. There is a long standing tradition of letting folks handle their talk page as they would like, it's fully within a user's rights to say "don't post on my talk page any more". I found her behavior to be bordering on hounding:
Harassment, threats, intimidation, repeated annoying and unwanted contact or attention, and repeated personal attacks may reduce an editor's enjoyment of Wikipedia and thus cause disruption to the project.
She wasn't involved in the article he was editing in any way, she has no edits and I find it hard to believe an "old English granny" would have independent interest in an American college athletic rivalry confined to one state. This leads me to believe she was looking at his edits. Also, he made it clear further contact was unwanted (in a less than civil manner but he did). While his reaction was definitely uncivil and he was rightfully blocked, it doesn't mean his complaint was without merit. --WGFinley (talk) 23:51, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, but as I pointed out in the ANI thread, she left him two mandatory notifications before the message that resulted in the ANI thread. He removed those notifications - 9 days after she left them, and after someone else, Worm That Turned, I believe, had added another message. Quite reasonably, she wasn't even aware of the removal considering it happened 9 days later, if the edit summary had appeared in her watchlist over a week later why would she have even thought it would be anything to do with her? So that's three messages, two simply notifications, and one after his removal which, might I add didn't actually say anything along the lines of "stay off my talk page" but instead just said, rather vaguely, "remove sanctimonious needling". After that she left him one message. And that constitutes hounding? I know you're perfectly entitled to disagree with me, and after this if you still don't see my point I'll do what's best and drop it, I certainly don't want to be anywhere near a dead horse, but I feel that facts were misrepresented in the ANI thread. Two notifications and one message aren't particularly badgering to me. And if you look at the RFC/U, you'll see that people were checking his edit summaries, because they were a large part of the problems people were raising. If he had clearly said "don't come here any more" or even a "GTFO my page" I'd be more in agreement, but as it stands, he removed her two notifications 9 days later with no explicit statement telling her to stay away. I think that should be considered. Regards, OohBunnies!Leave a message :) 00:12, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- Immediately removing anything she posted on his page and calling it "needling" isn't a signal if disapproval? He made it pretty clear he wasn't interested in what she had to say and didn't wish further contact. --WGFinley (talk) 00:23, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- That's what I'm saying - it wasn't immediate. It was nine days after she left him a message. And what about the fact he was at RFC/U where his edit summaries were being called into question, does that not explain why she would have been looking at his? Regards, OohBunnies!Leave a message :) 00:24, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- You realize some people don't edit every day, right? --WGFinley (talk) 00:26, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- You realise he actually had edited almost every day since she left the notifications? He only removed them after Worm That Turned added a message. That's not an interpretation, that's a fact. And what about the RFC/U explanation for her looking at edit summaries? OohBunnies!Leave a message :) 00:30, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- You're splitting hairs quite severely. Badger removed every message she had left for him with a derogatory comment prior to her posting again on his page. He made it clear he wasn't interested in what she had to say and she pretty clearly followed his edits given the edit she commented on. People miss messages on their talk page all the time (I know I do when I get more than one message warning) but he had removed them well before she posted to his page again. --WGFinley (talk) 05:32, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- Alright, we don't have to agree. I respect your opinion, and realise that this isn't going to go anywhere. Thanks for taking the time to respond and happy editing. OohBunnies!Leave a message :) 05:45, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- You're splitting hairs quite severely. Badger removed every message she had left for him with a derogatory comment prior to her posting again on his page. He made it clear he wasn't interested in what she had to say and she pretty clearly followed his edits given the edit she commented on. People miss messages on their talk page all the time (I know I do when I get more than one message warning) but he had removed them well before she posted to his page again. --WGFinley (talk) 05:32, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- You realise he actually had edited almost every day since she left the notifications? He only removed them after Worm That Turned added a message. That's not an interpretation, that's a fact. And what about the RFC/U explanation for her looking at edit summaries? OohBunnies!Leave a message :) 00:30, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- You realize some people don't edit every day, right? --WGFinley (talk) 00:26, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- That's what I'm saying - it wasn't immediate. It was nine days after she left him a message. And what about the fact he was at RFC/U where his edit summaries were being called into question, does that not explain why she would have been looking at his? Regards, OohBunnies!Leave a message :) 00:24, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- Immediately removing anything she posted on his page and calling it "needling" isn't a signal if disapproval? He made it pretty clear he wasn't interested in what she had to say and didn't wish further contact. --WGFinley (talk) 00:23, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
We can agree to disagree, this is only a warning, nothing more. I'm just calling something to her attention she may not have thought of, that's it. Folks are making a way bigger deal about this than need be. --WGFinley (talk) 05:50, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- Firstly, please be aware that referring to a person in the third person in this manner is highly offensive; c/f wikt:who's 'she', the cat's mother?
- Next, "several felt Pesky was not without fault and I agreed" - please explain why you agreed. You have still failed to give any rationale for agreeing any fault. Please explain what, it your opinion, that user did wrong.
- "She took him to AN/I, then to RFC/U, then came back a month later to reassess his progress herself" - yes; BD had been abusive since 2008. Pesky tried to help resolve that ongoing problem.
- "after he had previously let her know her comments weren't welcome on his talk page" - by reverting a polite warning. In whose dictionary does that construe 'harrassment'?
- There is a long standing tradition of letting folks handle their talk page as they would like" - within reason. it's fully within a user's rights to say "don't post on my talk page any more". - Are you seriously contesting that it is acceptable to say "fuck the hell off, you horrifyingly creepy obsessed individual" [8] - under any circumstances?
- I found her behavior to be bordering on hounding - where, when, what? Diffs, please?
Chzz ► 00:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Convenience link
- Are you chiding me for not using an honorific? It's perfectly acceptable for me to use a pronoun when I've already mentioned her by name previously.
- I just wrote an entire response about why I agreed.
- Nobody can appoint themselves as the civility police.
- I have said several times what he did was abhorrent, however, we are not talking about what Badger did, I'm talking about what Pesky did aka "two wrongs don't make a right".
- Again, I just wrote an entire paragraph on how this notice showed elements of hounding unless she has taken a sudden interest in American collegiate sports in Oklahoma.
--WGFinley (talk) 00:19, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- This is quite simple; we don't need 5 bullets; please explain what - in your opinion - Pesky did, which was wrong. Thanks, Chzz ► 06:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- One final time - #5. --WGFinley (talk) 06:07, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- OK, so, can you explain what part of that specific message is inappropriate? It seems like your argument is, that because Pesky does not often edit in that topic area, it is somehow wrong to advise upon it; well, I very frequently CSD articles about things I have never heard of, and I often 'warn' users regarding articles about which I have no knowledge whatsoever. This was one, single, post. I can see nothing, whatsoever, wrong here. Are you seriously claiming that, if I were to 'warn' a user for creating an article about Korean monkey sausages, that I would be 'harassing' the user? Chzz ► 06:47, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- One final time - #5. --WGFinley (talk) 06:07, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- This is quite simple; we don't need 5 bullets; please explain what - in your opinion - Pesky did, which was wrong. Thanks, Chzz ► 06:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
I've explained this multiple times, you're cherry picking my answers which shows you're reading at least part of them but don't seem to be comprehending all of it. This is a warning, that is all. The article wasn't on CSD, it was an article that Badger had edited and quite clearly she was going through his edit summaries a month after her RFC/U she filed against him. I didn't say it was hounding but it borders on it and could be construed as hounding. If she doesn't have such interactions again I'm certain it won't come up again. If it does come up again then those involved will look at the ANI case and my warning and make their decisions from there. I think I've explained this as best I can. --WGFinley (talk) 14:05, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- A warning is inappropriate. The user did nothing wrong whatsoever, and does not deserve to have a record on ANI that she has been 'admonished'. You say it borders on hounding, so at least you acknowledge it is problematic. The permanent record it similar to a police conviction for almost speeding. Chzz ► 17:33, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- Pesky made 4 posts to the user talk page in total, the first two being statutory notifications *before* there was an RfC.
- The first was notification about the ANI posting (as required). Pesky was told, on ANI, to take it to RfC instead.
- The second was notification of the RfC itself
- The third was her polite comments on his continued use of ill-considered edit summaries; note that, in the RfC, recommendations included monitoring his use of edit-summaries, which is precisely what Pesky did. And she made one single comment about them on his talk.
- Her fourth post was in reply to a question directed at her from another user, below her third post.
- I do not think it is fair to call that "hounding", by any possible stretch of the imagination. I think that BD's ANI posting intended it to look that way, and sadly, many people fell for that, without checking the reality. Chzz ► 06:11, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- Wgfinley, I am still awaiting a response to this; I am hoping that you will review the issue, and withdraw your admonishment. If you consider the matter 'closed', then please indicate whether you feel any other specific venue might be appropriate to appeal the closure. Thanks, Chzz ► 19:55, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
I spent a lot of time writing a very long and detailed response to this. When I got done I realized all the different events I was dragging back out into the open and all the various people who are involved. I decided that scab was best left alone and I won't do it. I have explained my decision, you may not understand it but I have explained it. You are not the person concerned. If Pesky wants further explanation I will provide one and post what I wrote. Otherwise, it's time to move on. --WGFinley (talk) 21:57, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- Pesky has ceased editing, due to the distress caused by this matter. Since Pesky is not satisfied with the outcome, I disagree that it is time to move on; I am not one of the parties directly concerned, and nor are you; however, I have just as much right to appeal your decision to admonish that user (a harsh term, more commonly seen in arbitration cases) as you have to write it in the first place.
- I would like you to retract your admonishment. If you will not, I would like to discuss it. If we cannot agree, I would like to take it to an appropriate venue. I do not want this matter brushed under a carpet, as happens so often with civility issues. (Related, but needing address elsewhere, is [9])
- If you think that the 'scab is healed' just because Pesky has stopped editing, then you are mistaken; lack of civility and being in denial of the endemic problems of intransigent long-term incivility is an infection which, if ignored, threatens the entire project. Chzz ► 00:38, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
Have you folks learned nothing from this that sometimes, it's best to leave well enough alone? One person withdrew his RfA, another asked for a indefinite self-block. There was a disaster of an RfA, an AN/I, a month-long RfC/U and then it went back to AN/I again and you still want to continue? For a warning? It's not worth it. It's time for this to stop and folks move on. If you want to open yet another AN/I on this that's up to you, I don't understand to what end you wish to pursue it but that's up to you. --WGFinley (talk) 02:09, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
- Please clarify "disaster of an RfA". Thanks. Chzz ► 09:06, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
- Could I also ask how you suggest editors who see a pattern of uncivil edits deal with it? Discuss it at the venue they first see it, ANI, RfC/U? Or perhaps posting a polite message at the users talk page? WormTT · (talk) 09:29, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
- I don't consider someone having to withdraw his RfA due to the animosity that developed in the process as a good thing. In fact those who participated in taking Badger on doomed that RfA. If you had ignored it I'm certain most users would have seen Badger's criticism as unjustified cabalism with no proof and dismissed it. You gave it credence by fighting with him. As far as working with users who may be uncivil I have worked with many over the years and mentored several to help them work through their issues. Filing multiple cases against them in various venues and monitoring their edits isn't something that helps, working with someone who they respect does. --WGFinley (talk) 14:15, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
I think that's an awful thing to claim - that people who objected to uncivil comments and "ancient sins" on the RfA were somehow responsible for it failing. It sounds like you think we should just ignore incivility - even if it's been going on for years. Surely not?
I'm not sure quite who you mean by "you" in "You gave it credence by fighting with him". It cannot be me, nor Worm, because neither of us responded on that RfA; check it out, Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/Steven Zhang#Badger Drink's comment. I suppose by "you" you're referring to the fact that Pesky responded - which she did; and so did lots of others. Pesky also responded to other people's comments, but did not "drag them to AN/I". I do understand what you're saying - that when people respond to RfA opposes, it can be detrimental to the candidate; however, RfA is at least supposed to be a discussion, not a vote; so people should surely be permitted to respond.
Re-reading the original AN/I thread that Pesky started, here, several things strike me. One is that many people there thought that we should certainly take action about long-term incivility; and that RfA shouldn't be some special exception to that. Another is, that from the very start, Pesky made it clear that she was talking about a long-term problem, going on for years - and specifically not just the recent events on the RfA; in fact, she tried to steer the discussion back to the longer-term problem and away from the RfA - e.g. "Forget that it's anything to do with an RfA - it's not about RfA, it's about incivility and lack of respect. And it's been going on, and got away with, for a very long time".
Also, we need to consider exactly what has happened here; your comment about "Filing multiple cases against them in various venues" really doesn't match the reality;
Pesky filed one, single, 'case' on ANI - the only one she's ever created in over 12000 edits. And then, in that thread, Pesky was advised that it'd be better suited to an RfC/U - for example, BWilkins said that a "studied pattern" belongs at WP:RFC/U. So, that's exactly what she did.
The case was therefore moved to an RfC/U (this one), as a direct result of that advice. Pesky stated, it "seems to be a long-term and ongoing issue, and took it to AN/I though I now appreciate that this was probably the wrong venue". Fully accepting that ANI wasn't the correct approach, and trying to sort out this problem, as advised to do - remember, lots of people on the AN/I thread thought something needed to happen here.
In that RfC/U, the vast majority of people recognized that there was a real, serious, ongoing issue - many indicating "Why are we allowing this <behaviour>?" Why do we tolerate it?
During the RfC/U, Pesky seemed to listen carefully and respond appropriately, and try to work out a way forward. Her "propsed outcome" is entirely reasonable, and very gentle. She was not requesting sanctions. BD flat-out refused to participate. But, many people indicated that his edits, and in particular his edit-summaries, should be watched, and that was the ultimate agreement there. And so, that's exactly what Pesky did; happy that he'd improved, when she saw a slip back into the same old pattern, she gently pointed it out to the user. And that is it. Then, he launched the AN/I thread you closed.
So, let's say it in simple terms;
- BD and others wrote some comments on Z's RfA, which several people considered to be out of order.
- Pesky and others replied to them.
- Checking into BD's behaviour, in an attempt to AGF and ascertain whether perhaps BD was "having a bad day", Pesky saw the long-term pattern of incivility, and wanted to address that. So, took it to ANI. <and notified BD on his talk - edit #1>
- On the ANI, Pesky was advised an RfC/U was more appropriate - so she moved the discussion there, <and notified BD - edit #2>
- BD made no attempt to remove those notifications for over a week.
- In the RfC/U, most thought BD's edits were of concern, and wanted action; certainly wanted monitoring, and hoped for improvement.
- Worm That Turned contacted BD on his talk page expressing his concern that BD was not taking on board the consensus at the RfC/U.
- BD removed WTT's comment with the "remove sanctimonious needling" edit summary. At the same time, and purely coincidentally, he removed the two official notifications, on which he had acted, and which were in the same section.
- His "remove sanctimonious needling" was not addressed to Pesky, but to WTT.
- BD therefore did not ask Pesky to stay away from his talk page. His misrepresentation of the truth there (which Pesky and others have pointed out to you was a gross misrepresentation of the facts) was entirely - and probably calculatedly - mendacious.
- Pesky did monitor BD's edits, and commented on two, in a perfectly polite way <edit #3 and - in response to a direct q - edit #4>
It is absolutely clear to me that there is no kind of action, in any of that, which justifies admonishing Pesky. Her actions are not even "bordering on incivility", let alone "incivility bordering on hounding". They were entirely in line with policy, advice, and consensus.
I totally agree with you that it is "time for this to stop and folks move on" - there's nothing I'd like more. I wish I could've avoided having this lengthy conversation here. I did try addressing the matter by email, and others have attempted to point out to you that you were mistaken, but all that has happened is an WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT response. But, I simply cannot ignore this; you've handed out an admonishment to a user who is wholly blameless - and that has upset the user greatly. So again, I ask you to please reconsider your 'admonishment'. Thank you for your time. Chzz ► 10:46, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
- The matter has been concluded, I'm sorry you refuse to accept my explanations but this needs to end and it will not if I post a detailed treatise in reply. Therefore, in the words of Bartleby, the scrivener, "I would prefer not to." --WGFinley (talk) 14:55, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm sorry you feel that way; I will seek an appropriate venue to continue the discussion.Chzz ► 02:03, 11 December 2011 (UTC)- I understand your desire to conclude this discussion here. I will respect that; I just have one final question: Would you object if I remove the "admonishment" from the ANI archive closure, and strike the 'admonishment' from Pesky's user talk page? Whilst we may not be in agreement above, and I can live with disagreement, I'm still hoping we can tick this 'resolved' and move forwards. If you do not object to such an edit, I can perform it referring to your consent, and we can all move onwards and upwards. Thanks, again, for all your time. Chzz ► 04:55, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps if I saw some contrition, I've seen none. --WGFinley (talk) 05:47, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
- Have you actually read any of the above? Pesky's very first response was, "OK, I'm here now. Firstly, I apologise to BD for upsetting him - no upset was intended." [10]. Chzz ► 05:56, 11 December 2011 (UTC) *And, that apology came directly after him writing, "fuck the hell off you horrifyingly creepy obsessed individual"! Chzz ► 06:11, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
- So Wgfinley in fact you don't want to move on, you demand "contrition"? For what, exactly? This is beyond ridiculous, it's outrageous. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 06:00, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
- Have you actually read any of the above? Pesky's very first response was, "OK, I'm here now. Firstly, I apologise to BD for upsetting him - no upset was intended." [10]. Chzz ► 05:56, 11 December 2011 (UTC) *And, that apology came directly after him writing, "fuck the hell off you horrifyingly creepy obsessed individual"! Chzz ► 06:11, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps if I saw some contrition, I've seen none. --WGFinley (talk) 05:47, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
To be clear, I haven't demanded a thing. I was being asked to change my decision, I said that if I saw some contrition I would consider it and noted I haven't seen any since I made my decision. --WGFinley (talk) 06:17, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
- To be clear: what 'contrition' would you like to see? Please be clear. Thanks, Chzz ► 06:18, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
- Ie, for the love of all that is holy, let's try to sort this out - here, now; instead of months of mutually-annoying stuff when we could be editing other things. You need to at least let me remove the 'admonishment'. What do you need, in order to allow that? Chzz ► 06:20, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
- She doesn't seem interested to be honest. --WGFinley (talk) 06:22, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
- You have not shown a way out. Please do. Do you still believe that Pesky posted on BD's talk after BD had asked her not to? Chzz ► 06:26, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
- If you want pesky to offer contrition, you must explain what she should be contrite for. You have still failed to explain that, in any terms that I can understand. Diffs, please; show us what she did wrong. PLEASE understand, that I am doing all I can to resolve this without the need for further discussion elsewhere; I truly hope you understand that; that my intent here is in the best interests of the project, I am trying very hard to work towards "other avenues will be attempted first"ref before taking this any further. Thank you for your kind consideration. Chzz ► 06:32, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
- She doesn't seem interested to be honest. --WGFinley (talk) 06:22, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Wgfinley, the very first thing that I did, after I had been verbally assaulted, and falsely accused at AN/I, was to apologise for inadvertently upsetting BD. I sincerely hope that no actions I have made were detrimental to the project. I hope you will see fit to strike your 'admonishment' because I believe I had the best interests of the project at heart, at all times. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 06:56, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Accord
I will remove all action from the AN/I as it concerns you with the following caveats:
- You need to concede the fact you could have handled this better and, while good intentioned, your actions contributed to a vast display of animosity.
- You need to apologize for the aspersions cast on me on your talk page (I won't ask for their removal but that would be nice). I recognize you are upset and that is likely the source of these comments but I don't judge people by how many edits they have and I would expect likewise. We all have variable amounts of time to contribute to the project and I admin in topic areas scattered with the entrails of admins who tried to bring some peace. It subjects one to burnout and the need for a break and I've taken several over the years. I don't pretend to be a perfect person but I don't react well to attacks on my integrity with facts that have nothing at all to do with my decisions.
- I will concede that my admonishment was too strong for the situation and have thought better of it after you recognized what my concerns were.
Please respond if you agree, I will make the changes to AN/I when agreed. --WGFinley (talk) 16:36, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
- Hi, yes, absolutely. I'm so glad we've been able to meet each other half way.
- Hindsight is always 20/20; I certainly didn;t predict the explosion which followed, and maybe I should have realised that the whole situation was far more explosive than I did. Maybe I should have asked someone else involved in the RfC/U to drop a quiet reminder on BD's talk instead of doing so myself.
- I am sorry for growling so unpleasantly about you on my talk; it was as a result of a combination of several things (including intense pain, which always makes me irritable, and morphine, which - although I don't necessarily appreciate it at the time - is bound to affect my judgment). We all occasionally do things which are unworthy of us. We're human. I completely understand how you feel about attacks on your integrity - I'm the same way myself.
- Thank you.
Pesky (talk …stalk!) 16:50, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
I have removed the admonition from the ANI case[11], thank you for agreeing to my caveats. --WGFinley (talk) 16:59, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
... and thanks, again. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 19:07, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Recent action on WTC 7 article
Just thought you should know that within days of you imposing a topic ban Jordgette has put forward a "proposed compromise" on the building 7 article that essentially masks a revert of numerous contributions I made weeks ago or even changes I made over a month ago. A number of new minor changes that would require no discussion are included with the rest really being nothing more than reverts, often reverting changes that were not even remotely controversial (like replacing "In response to" with "Responding to"). Some of the changes being reverted had been explicitly endorsed by Jordgette even, like my shortening of the material about fires. It is interesting that Jordgette would suddenly decide to push for such a revert, to an audience that obviously has no interest in objecting, while the person responsible for nearly all of the changes that are being reverted is unable to comment as a result of Jordgette pushing for that person to be unable to comment. I could have told you this would happen since it is just like what happened after my edit-warring block.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 18:30, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- And this would be a violation of your TBAN further info on your talk page. --WGFinley (talk) 18:51, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
TVFAN24
Greetings ... I saw your post on TVFAN24's talk page. I'm hoping someone can get through to the editor, be it yourself or me, or anyone. I had to warn two other editors at American Idol about edit warring, and while the two of them started talking, TVFAN24 has started making changes, her latest at American Idol without even an edit summary. I've given TVFAN two final warnings, one by suggestion (saying he was warned at the same level instead of using the template), and this latest by template. The other editors I've warned have stopped, and that's all I want from TVFAN24 as well. Any help you can provide to help defuse this edit war would be appreciated. --McDoobAU93 00:15, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
- I've previously helped her working through issues of "ownership" she sometimes has, I'm hoping me letting her know I notice will have an impact. --WGFinley (talk) 00:20, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Regarding ThePeskyCommoner
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Hi Wgfinley. I'd firstly like to say thank you for your efforts in the whole Badger Drink situation. You've done an excellent job where there were a number of involved parties discussing an issue which is very subjective. However, one thing I'm not happy with is your admonishment of ThePeskyCommoner for hounding. I agree that her comment at Badger Drink's userpage was ill-advised and triggered this whole scenario but I have seen no evidence of hounding. The timeline as I see it was that she raised an issue she saw at ANI, where she was told an RfC was more appropriate. She then started an RfC. Both times, she left notices for Badger Drink - as is required. Badger Drink did remove the notices as with an edit summary of "remove sanctimonious needling", but it is worth noting that he was likely responding to my comment requesting he does pay attention to the RfC, not Pesky's notifications (at the time, my comment was 7 hours old and Pesky's were 9 days old). Pesky did not follow Badger Drink anywhere, she did not comment at areas he worked to annoy him or anything of the sort. She investigated his contributions for the RfC and was likely watching them, but there is nothing preventing her from doing that. I see not reason why we should not assume good faith here that she was genuinely trying to help out. If she should be admonished, it should be for the comment she made which was unlikely to produce the result that it was asking for but much more likely to produce the result that it did. She should not be admonished for trying to improve the civility on the encyclopedia and following the procedure in doing that. WormTT · (talk) 10:57, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
@Worm If you file an RFC and you choose to "investigate" further instead of listening to what others have to say are you really looking to remediate that user's behavior or are you looking for a public flogging to prove you're right? I am AGF and maintaining that she meant well and just went about it in a way that led to a bad situation, hence this being a warning. Just a polite reprieve that she should be careful in the future so there aren't disruptions like that. --WGFinley (talk) 14:19, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
My words keep getting cherry picked here so I'll put it again, I didn't say Pesky was hounding. What I said when I closed the case was:
"Admonished" is a firm warning. Incivility is when you continue to make unwelcome contact with someone (continuing to add to someone's wall when they remove everything you say with a disparaging remark pretty much indicates the contact is unwelcome) and finally could be construed as hounding. It's saying "this isn't hounding" because otherwise I would just say "hounding". It says some could consider it hounding and apparently some could consider it "investigation". What's not contested is the rather large disruption that occurred and resulted in the helpful note being anything but. --WGFinley (talk) 14:49, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
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Enforcement
- I think that you are mixing up two sets of edits in your response here. You linked to some diffs related to wording in the infobox.
- At a later point, I thought that while that wording was too long for the infobox, it made sense in the lede, and added similar wording to the first paragraph. Those were totally separate sets of edits. YehudaTelAviv64 (talk) 03:15, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- WP:GAMING - it's all the same language that you have been removing and then someone else puts it back in, the language is the same regardless of where it is in the article. --WGFinley (talk) 03:17, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think you follow. I wanted that wording out of the infobox but the "someone else puts it back in" refers to me -- I am the one who added almost the same wording to the lede. The same wording I wanted out of the infobox -- I just thought it was too long for there. YehudaTelAviv64 (talk) 03:20, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- I've been sticking to the article talk page as much as possible. I've just been pulled away by things like this bogus AE for a "revert" that is obviously not a "revert". YehudaTelAviv64 (talk) 03:27, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- WP:GAMING - it's all the same language that you have been removing and then someone else puts it back in, the language is the same regardless of where it is in the article. --WGFinley (talk) 03:17, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
In a last ditch effort...
To prevent me filing an A/E case against you, could you please wikilink me to where you responded this specifically and directly? I am still willing to accept it was an oversight on my part. I see you are currently offline, I will try to wait until I am finished typing up the report for you to respond, if you even want to at all. -asad (talk) 16:11, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
- I just clicked through on that link, and saw the part where you wrote:
- ...his search term in Google Books was, "where is mt hermon israel or syria". JJG was just fishing through Google Books to find any source he could where it stated "Israel" rather than "Syria".
- To me, it looks like he was trying to identify whether it was in Israel or Syria. If he had searched for something like "mr hermon israel" I would agree with you, but it really looks like he was just looking for sources that discuss the topic.
- If you file an AE case, please also look into WGFinley's misconduct in this AE and the discussion at the bottom of this talk page. Thank you. YehudaTelAviv64 (talk) 16:29, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
You've been reported to A/E. Sorry I couldn't give you more time to respond, but I reread the JJG case and I am confident that you have never addressed the issue of misrepresentation of sources. -asad (talk) 22:23, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Conduct of WGFinley in AE
Copied from [12] to continue discussion. YehudaTelAviv64 (talk) 16:14, 12 December 2011 (UTC) |
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That you are using the section for uninvolved administrators to further whatever your agenda is against Nableezy for the second time on a request not concerning Nableezy is frankly disgusting and insulting. Nableezy is not the only user who has an issue with your conduct or your attitude. In fact going by your talk page and the several hundreds of words by other editors, the issue is not even limited to your conduct on AE or P-I issues. That should tell you all you need to know. If I were Nableezy and faced with your refusal to admit when you are wrong or your obvious bias in the JJG (and this) case, then I too would be more than a little pissed off and my tone would be, understandably, no different to his.
WGFinley's comments on the aggressive and disrespectful tone that Nableezy uses with editors and admins he disagrees with, visible in his responses here, are justified, as is his effort to confront and address it in this, and previous AE requests. Nableezy's lack of patience and hostility around the I/P space is way above what should be tolerated by all standards of WP Civility. Though everyone involved is entitled to their POV angles, it needs to be stressed to Nableezy that his conduct of intimidation, derision and threats against people who are offended with his consistent uncivil one-sided assaults, is not conducive to a healthy editing environment. Most editors and admins prefer not to respond to him with the same type of aggression, though it's often the only way to get his attention in order to convey to him the severity of his behavior. Addressing the issue of tone and attitude needed for a healthy collaborative environment is paramount for achieving a more efficient and harmonious editing space. WGFinley's motion here has been long needed so that Nableezy might understand that its his own behavior that is the root cause which turns nearly every disagreement with him into a battleground. More often than not, these instances make it to AE on a technicality and fail to address the primary behavioral cause. It's time to try to address the disruptive and nearly poisonous atmosphere that Nableezy's conduct causes and encourages in this space. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 15:21, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
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- MichaelNetzer, I agree with most of your points, but you paint a picture of WGFinley as very involved with Nableezy. That involvement means that he should recuse himself from many actions, including commenting in the uninvolved administrators sections in AEs. YehudaTelAviv64 (talk) 16:18, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
- YTA64, I don't think we disagree much. However, Uninvolved administrator in AE filings does not refer to the interaction between an administrator and an editor in the AE report space itself. It refers to an administrator who is uninvolved in the edit conflict and interactions that led to the complaint. How can an admin be univolved if it applies to interactions he needs to have with editors to address the report in his capacity as administrator? All of AGF's interactions with Nableezy were within the AE report space themselves, which spilled over to this talk page as well, though remained strictly within the report topic. He has not interacted as an editor, to the best of my knowledge, in any of the edits or conflicts that led to the reports, aside from within his capacity as an admin. I don't believe there's a problem of an involved administrator here. But there is a serious problem with one editor turning WP into their own personal battleground and making it difficult for everyone else to work harmoniously. It'll take a bold and serious measure to solve this problem. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 17:22, 12 December 2011 (UTC)