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: I am a NPOV warrior. I guard an encyclopedia from people who would hopelessly distort it through their biases. I suggest you focus on content, not editors, as you have frequently requested of others - calling people fringe warriors without them calling themselves such is dramatically offensive, coming from a paid PR operative such as yourself. [[User:Hipocrite|Hipocrite]] ([[User talk:Hipocrite|talk]]) 20:12, 9 June 2014 (UTC) |
: I am a NPOV warrior. I guard an encyclopedia from people who would hopelessly distort it through their biases. I suggest you focus on content, not editors, as you have frequently requested of others - calling people fringe warriors without them calling themselves such is dramatically offensive, coming from a paid PR operative such as yourself. [[User:Hipocrite|Hipocrite]] ([[User talk:Hipocrite|talk]]) 20:12, 9 June 2014 (UTC) |
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::Well if you follow you own advice hipocrite, we would never be having this conversation. I'm glad you agree that calling people names that they do not call themselves can be offensive. If you stay consistent with that logic, I assume you will join the chorus of NPOV editors who do not like to have Dr Chopra called a New Age Guru in WP's voice for the same reasons. |
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::I'm just going to close this discussion out with a comment made by an admin on the COI noticeboard. If you cannot self reflect on your own behavior and continue to dance around policy to justify your harassment - perhaps the words of this admin will help you understand what's been happening from my perspective and help you all self reflect just a little bit more. It's copied below and the diff is [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard&diff=606370746&oldid=606367071 here.] |
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* As an uninvolved editor (with no intention of involving himself) I have to say that there's a problem where SAS81 is up against a bunch of involved editors with '''clear bias against the subject, judging by the repeated use of pejoratives here and elsewhere'''. That is not to say I disagree with the systemic bias we have in this particular case - I also think that Dr. Chopra is a snake oil salesman on any good day. But that's exactly the reason I would never involve myself in editing his biography. But we need to come up with a better solution than having a user with a declared COI and valid intentions '''go up against a small army of vociferous skeptics and wiki warriors.''' This should be handled neutrally from both ends. '''We can't ask SAS81 to be "nice" to us when they are assailed at every turn because they have a COI (!), or because we don't like his boss.''' As to how to do that... I have no idea. Maybe there's a kind soul amongst our more experienced editors that doesn't think badly of Chopra and can help out SAS81. But this situation tends to reflect badly on us as a community. And MastCell has a point, but all that excessive posting and forum shopping might simply be a reflection of SAS81's frustration at running into the same walls over and over. '''FreeRangeFrogcroak 18:50, 29 April 2014''' |
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[[User:SAS81|SAS81]] ([[User talk:SAS81#top|talk]]) 20:25, 9 June 2014 (UTC) |
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== What does it mean to you to be "without bias"? == |
== What does it mean to you to be "without bias"? == |
Revision as of 20:25, 9 June 2014
Best advice I've been given
The Special Barnstar | ||
For your tireless attempts to work within the boundaries set by Wikipedia, with grace, andcivility despite the frustration and difficulties you've encountered. Just keep showing up. Littleolive oil (talk) 01:39, 5 May 2014 (UTC) |
Thank you :) SAS81 (talk) 14:55, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
DS notification
The Arbitration Committee has authorised discretionary sanctions to be used for pages regarding pseudoscience and fringe science, a topic which you have edited. The Committee's decision is here.
Discretionary sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimize disruption to controversial topics. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to the topic that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behavior, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. This message is to notify you sanctions are authorised for the topic you are editing. Before continuing to edit this topic, please familiarise yourself with the discretionary sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.
This message is informational only and does not imply misconduct regarding your contributions to date.Template:Z33 Hipocrite (talk) 17:04, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
- "This message is informational only and does not imply misconduct regarding your contributions to date."
SAS81, these notices are given to editors who work in this topical area, regardless of their point of view. Discretionary sanctions also exist in other subjects where debate can get heated like Eastern Europe and the Israel/Palestine conflict. I just wanted to put this notice into context. Liz Read! Talk! 17:35, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you Liz! I guess the editor who posted it did not realize that I already posted this notice on my own talk page. I'm aware of these sanctions and plan on sticking to the guidelines to the letter and spirit. SAS81 (talk) 19:32, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
- to stick to them in letter and spirit you will need to stop engaging in WP:TE about the subject- such as repeatedly suggesting words and phrasing so completely at odds with the very simple to follow WP:PEACOCK that you are either making no attempt to read and follow the guidelines provided to you (again and again and again) or so completely lacking in WP:COMPETENCE as to make effort of communicating with you futile. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:46, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you Liz! I guess the editor who posted it did not realize that I already posted this notice on my own talk page. I'm aware of these sanctions and plan on sticking to the guidelines to the letter and spirit. SAS81 (talk) 19:32, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
I guess you're not following the discussion, the term you're complaining about 'cheerleader' was originally suggested by JPS as an alternative to the pejorative 'New Age Guru' that the article is leading with but not supported by the body of the article. Making suggestions, especially when advised by another editor to offer 'proposals' in one section, while trying to focus on single issues per everyone else's suggestion is simply not WP:TE and TE does not reflect my intentions nor behaviors. SAS81 (talk) 19:28, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
- no, i am not talking about the term "cheerleader" (thats a different issue). i am talking about the fact that in your proposed two paragraphs you gilded Chopra with " prominent"x2 "notable " and " leader" x2. We are talking basic identification of PR fluff here that you apparently still are completely oblivious to. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:06, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
- Yet you're absolutely fine with calling him a 'New Age Guru'. You're fine with omitting facts that contradict your suspicions of him. It's just a 'fact' that Dr. Chopra is considered a thought leader and there are pristine sources which show that. That's how many notable people, including Bill Clinton, perceive him. You're trying to omit that. Do you actually believe it's PR fluff to simply say that Dr Chopra is notable? It's a fact that he is notable. And my proposal was to show my thinking on the issue and to open up dialogue. You're definition of neutrality means the article takes a critical voice. TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doomare you taking responsibility for the current state of the article? SAS81 (talk) 16:26, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
- I believe we've already told you more than once that Bill Clinton is not an expert on medicine. Worse, politicians have a nasty habit of tailoring their messages to suit the audience. You don't (or can't) seem to comprehend this. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:29, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
- In fact the Clintons don't seem to have the best record in deciding on health issues. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 03:46, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
- I believe we've already told you more than once that Bill Clinton is not an expert on medicine. Worse, politicians have a nasty habit of tailoring their messages to suit the audience. You don't (or can't) seem to comprehend this. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:29, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Yes, correct Barney the barney barney, you've told me that more than once. The problem is that it's a strawman, I was never arguing that Clinton is a source to verify Dr Chopra's medical credentials so repeating this argument again just tells me you're not making an effort to listen. Dr. Chopra has the AMA and his work with Chopra Center, UCSD support his medical credentials. Clinton's quote regarding Dr Chopra was to show that he is notable for being, what Clinton refers to as a 'pioneer'. Now you can call him pioneer, thought leader, cheerleader, it doesn't matter, what matters is that he is notable for playing that role and he has been recognized by world leaders as such. If he was a new age guru, I would expect him to be referred to as a new age guru by world leaders. the only sources that call him a new age guru are critics.
@Alexbrn - It doesn't matter what OR you do on the Clintons, the fact is when a sitting US president makes a statement to a foreign dignitary, that statement is based on the credibility of the US and surely you've heard of this. So to say that a US president is not qualified to make statements that he is not expert in is stretching the limits of common sense. US presidents have to make all sorts of statements beyond their expertise, that is why they have presidential commissions which are comprised of the leading academic experts in those fields to inform them. SAS81 (talk) 01:04, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
- Well, SAS81 (talk · contribs) my opinion was that you were not worth talking to, and I think you've just proven why. Don't shit me - Mr Clinton is not a medical expert. His opinion on medicine is entirely irrelevant. If there are *any* medical articles in which the opinion of any politician is prominently cited, I'll personally remove it. This isn't happening try moving on from this transparently pathetic argument. Barney the barney barney (talk) 10:02, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
- Barney. I don't see here that SAS is suggesting Clinton is a medical expert. He suggests he is notable for another statement altogether. (Littleolive oil (talk) 14:10, 18 May 2014 (UTC))
- Littleolive oil (talk · contribs) - given your previous statements inclined to be anti-Wikipedia and anti-WP:FRINGE, I cannot say that I am surprised. SAS81 (talk · contribs) wants to include, promintently in the lead, a statement from Mr William Clinton, a retired politician, praising Dr Chopra as a "pioneer of medicine". SAS81 (talk · contribs) apparently accepts that Mr Clinton is not an expert on medicine, but that describing someone as a "pioneer of medicine" isn't related to medicine. Do you see the slight contradiction here? Instead, Mr Clinton is touted as an expert on what constitutes a "pioneer", even though everyone else is not really sure what "pioneer" means beyond PR-bullshit. Furthermore, SAS81 (talk · contribs) wants this non-medical related medical statement to be prominently cited in the article, as apparently a summary of scholarly opinions on Dr Chropa's work. Do you know what the scholarly opinions of alternative medicine and Dr Chopra are? Do you think this quote accurately reflects them? Meanwhile, despite repeatedly told to stop flogging this dead horse, even though it's now maggot infested, giving off foul gases, and liable to explode, we go back to this inane statement. This is very good WP:ROPE. Barney the barney barney (talk) 16:42, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
- Barney. I don't see here that SAS is suggesting Clinton is a medical expert. He suggests he is notable for another statement altogether. (Littleolive oil (talk) 14:10, 18 May 2014 (UTC))
- Gosh Barney, anti Wikipedia and anti Fringe. I guess a good laugh is always in order.(Littleolive oil (talk) 18:15, 18 May 2014 (UTC))
- Littleolive oil, you're in good company...Barney Barney called me anti-Wikipedia and anti-WP:FRINGE because I defended an editor I thought was being bullied. It's his "go-to" insult to folks when he is on the other side of a dispute. Meaningless. Liz Read! Talk! 18:26, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, that's right, Liz (talk · contribs). In this bizarre world of yours, implementing Wikipedia policies is conflated with "bullying" editors (and of course bullies should be banned!)- because we're now at the point where the anti-Wikipedia editors don't have any arguments except whining how butthurt they're feeling because Wikipedia isn't more sympathetic to pseudo-scholarship, e.g. such as alternative "medicine". Barney the barney barney (talk) 20:36, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
- I've never argued about or over content, Barney. I've just asked that editors treated each other with civility and edit in line with WP:NPA and abide by WP:BLP guidelines. Yes, this bizarre world of mine, where editors try to follow the WP:FIVEPILLARS and don't attack each other. You should try it out. Liz Read! Talk! 20:43, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
- Be nice to each other isn't a suicide pact. Yes, you're right Liz (talk · contribs), you don't want to discuss content, which leaves me wondering just what you are doing here? Instead you talk incessantly about being nice to people, specifically "that's OK, we won't revert your edits that are clearly against policy, just in case you might feel a little butthurt. This is based on your complete misinterpretation of what WP:BLP is and complete ignorance of WP:NPOV, WP:FRINGE and WP:COI. All it does is create a little WP:DRAMA for no reason. Barney the barney barney (talk) 12:28, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- I've never argued about or over content, Barney. I've just asked that editors treated each other with civility and edit in line with WP:NPA and abide by WP:BLP guidelines. Yes, this bizarre world of mine, where editors try to follow the WP:FIVEPILLARS and don't attack each other. You should try it out. Liz Read! Talk! 20:43, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, that's right, Liz (talk · contribs). In this bizarre world of yours, implementing Wikipedia policies is conflated with "bullying" editors (and of course bullies should be banned!)- because we're now at the point where the anti-Wikipedia editors don't have any arguments except whining how butthurt they're feeling because Wikipedia isn't more sympathetic to pseudo-scholarship, e.g. such as alternative "medicine". Barney the barney barney (talk) 20:36, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
- Littleolive oil, you're in good company...Barney Barney called me anti-Wikipedia and anti-WP:FRINGE because I defended an editor I thought was being bullied. It's his "go-to" insult to folks when he is on the other side of a dispute. Meaningless. Liz Read! Talk! 18:26, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
Barney you're speaking very rudely here and i don't appreciate my talk page being used to attack two editors whom have been kind, and rational enough to help out. Secondly, I'm not arguing clinton's statement go in the lead. I did offer it as a suggestion more than a month back, but that's yesterday's news. While your on my talk page being rude, other neutral WP editors are already cleaning up the article and have removed the offensive weasel language you apparently support. Biographical facts are not covered by Fringe, they are covered by BLP and I'm glad we have some editors here who know the difference. If someone is sore when they sit down, it's probably going to be you as the article now is correcting itself in a way I find satisfactory. SAS81 (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- @Liz, you're a class act, not least of which for being polite enough not to point out that you've got more edits and WP experience under your belt than 99% of the various folks accusing you of doing nothing on WP but drama. I respect your restraint, I wish I were as patient a person. The Cap'n (talk) 00:07, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
- That's kind of you, The Cap'n. And I'm sorry this argument broke out on your talk page, SAS81. You have the right to tell any of us that we are not welcome to post here, any time you want.
- My philosophy is that it costs nothing to be polite, even when you disagree with someone. The words we choose show our character, flaws and all. Liz Read! Talk! 00:23, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
- @Liz, you're a class act, not least of which for being polite enough not to point out that you've got more edits and WP experience under your belt than 99% of the various folks accusing you of doing nothing on WP but drama. I respect your restraint, I wish I were as patient a person. The Cap'n (talk) 00:07, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
- Liz you're more than welcome here! I was referring to the very rude individual who was so abusive to you and Olive. You, the Capn, Atama, Slim Virgin and Olive are gems and if it was not for all of you, I would have quit by now :). I really appreciate your advice and I am looking into it more. IN the meantime, the article is improving and it's great to see Wikipedia work when it does. You all are good people! SAS81 (talk) 00:28, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Moved barnstar
Hi SAS81, I moved your ANI board post to the users talk page. Thank you, --Malerooster (talk) 02:17, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
- Hello, I'm wondering if this was put on my talk page by accident? Not sure what you're referencing exactly. Which ANI? What barnstar? SAS81 (talk) 04:22, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Precious
Thank you
For your calm and even manner even when under fire. This is Gerda Arendt's award which she suggested we pass on when we find someone who deserves it as you do
(Littleolive oil (talk) 20:38, 3 June 2014 (UTC))
Thank you Olive :) I'll pass it on too, keep the cycle going. SAS81 (talk) 21:21, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
Image question
Hi SAS, do you think Chopra would consider releasing this image of himself (or some other) as a child? It would be nice to add it to the early life section.
Because we're a "free" encyclopaedia, almost all our images have to be released, rather than used with permission. One commonly used licence is a Creative Commons Attribution ShareAlike licence. I'll explain in more detail if and when you need it, but in brief Chopra would retain the copyright, but anyone could use the image for any purpose, including commercial purposes. That would mean that any news organization could use it without payment of a fee and without even asking him. So he might not want to do that, but I thought it worth checking with you anyway. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:53, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, more pictures of Chopra (and of his centers) would be useful decoration for the article! In particular, could a recent picture of DC be made available? Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 19:59, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
- Yes would love to oblige. We have not yet begun to archive images yet as we are just getting out the gate, but I will make this a priority and see what i can get you all in the next couple of days. Dr Chopra has numerous organizations so it may take a bit, but the child picture I can ask him directly. SAS81 (talk) 20:15, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks! SlimVirgin (talk) 20:20, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure where I should put them so I will place them here for now. I was able to get these quick because they were personal. Chopra center photos and Chopra foundation photos next week, Thanks SlimVirgin SAS81 (talk) 01:41, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
- These are great images, SAS, and thank you for being so fast about it. I've added the 2013 one and the baby one to the article. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:32, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
Confused about your relationship to Chopra
Chopra writes, "A group of researchers and archivists approached me awhile back to explain how Wikipedia works and offered to mediate... This team of researchers and historians has now formed the 'Integrative Studies Historical Archive and Repository.'"
Is this referring to you and your team? Hipocrite (talk) 18:29, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
Yes the full team specifically. SAS81 (talk) 19:39, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
- Something doesn't add up. You approached him to explain to him how Wikipedia worked, but on April 10, 2014, you wrote that "Wikipedia is very complex to new comers... please don’t bite the newbies." Were you referring to yourself? If you were, how is it possible that you "explain[ed] how Wikipedia works?" Hipocrite (talk) 19:43, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
- It could mean all sorts of things I guess. It could mean a 'newbie' account, or even new to "COI", or just flat out new to Wikipedia. Ish. I mean most people have a little Wikipedia experience, right? So what does it mean 'experience?' Hmmmmm. It could also mean that someone else on the team had a conversation with Dr Chopra that he is referring to, someone other than me. Maybe more than one too, other than me. Or it could mean that research had to be done to explain and that's all that means. Then there are the things that it could mean that you or I can't even think of. Oh the choices you have.
- It meant that I'm a little new to this, be nice, and don't bite me. ps - you're biting me. SAS81 (talk) 21:20, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
Your question at Talk:Deepak Chopra
To answer your question, since you decided to ask on the article talk page as well [1]:
- This is disruptive. I'd hoped the discussions here on your talk page back in April would have prevented anything like it.
- If you could stick to non-controversial proposals as defined by WP:COI, or just follow WP:COI much more closely, or follow the advice you've been given here, the situation would be entirely different. --Ronz (talk) 23:54, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
- Hey Ronz - thanks for addressing this. I don't see how this is disruptive so maybe you can explain to me how this is so? Biographical facts are essential in a BLP. Not everyone shares your particular policy arguments. SlimVirgin, an incredibly experienced editor, actually made most of the changes to the problems I was talking about. If I was so disruptive - why do neutral editors make the same or similar positions as I do? I'm here to be apart of the Wikipedia community - I just can't edit an actual article about this subject, but I am allowed to address arguments in talk and raise issues to other editors. SAS81 (talk) 14:10, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- At some points the need for repetition (both from and to you) is a problem.
- From your editing to date, I think you are here as a WP:SPA with a WP:COI intent only on promoting Chopra and whatever puts him in the best possible light.
- You don't appear interested in cooperating with me here and now, or you wouldn't be grasping at rationalizations but rather be asking for details. --Ronz (talk) 16:37, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- In case you haven't noticed, before I saw you had asked at the article talk page, I had answered on my talk here, just focusing on the lack of general consensus for what should be done in such situations. Here, I've tried once again to give you suggestions, which you've chosen so far to ignore.
- If you'd like to instead focus on exactly what you did wrong with the comment that I identified in the diff, we can do that too. --Ronz (talk) 17:04, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- Hey Ronz - thanks for addressing this. I don't see how this is disruptive so maybe you can explain to me how this is so? Biographical facts are essential in a BLP. Not everyone shares your particular policy arguments. SlimVirgin, an incredibly experienced editor, actually made most of the changes to the problems I was talking about. If I was so disruptive - why do neutral editors make the same or similar positions as I do? I'm here to be apart of the Wikipedia community - I just can't edit an actual article about this subject, but I am allowed to address arguments in talk and raise issues to other editors. SAS81 (talk) 14:10, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Ronz I understand you have an opinion about me - and I can see how your opinion about me is coloring your impressions of what I am doing, all I can tell you is what you're assuming about me does not reflect my intentions here on the encyclopedia. I don't think it's fair to say I ignore what you tell me, it may be that I consider it and don't agree it's appropriate in the same way you do.
If you want to focus on the diff, okay great let's have the policy discussion here. What's out of line with my point? A siting US president honors a living person in a speech to a foreign dignitary - my argument is that is as about as notable of a reception as they come. It makes sense to put that in the living person's biography. I'm not sure how me pointing this out is disruptive. Explain. SAS81 (talk) 23:50, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- Your biases are a given. Don't assume biases of anyone else please. I'm simply looking at your behavior.
- Why bring up Clinton after it was already discussed? Why bring it up in a manner that ignores the previous discussion? Why do you repeatedly focus on criticisms after all the discussion about them? Why do you repeat questions on the "guru" label that have already been addressed, again without acknowledging the previous discussions? Why end with, "Now we have created a drama that needs to be explained. Good luck with that one."? --Ronz (talk) 00:10, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
- Clinton was brought up again because Clinton was taken OUT of the article, so it's a different discussion than before, when it was being discussed for prominence in the lead sentence. Clinton was always in the article. Before, it was at the very bottom of the article, then SlimVirgin moved it to receptions. Then someone just took it out.
- In terms of Guru - there is no consensus on the article for using it, and a number of editors, many of them neutral also had a problem with it. On top of that, very vocal skeptics on the page were saying it's the most perfect word used to describe him (obviously it's a term that is discrediting) so I am citing BLP on that and still will. But did you notice I also thanked you for taking it out of WP's voice?
- I said 'good luck with that one' because the weight the skeptic editors are insisting keeping 'guru' in WP's voice creates unnecessary 'drama' in the article that the article has to explain. Although i accepted the compromise, it still makes for an awkward article. If he is described as a new age guru - why? What else is he described as? Why only give one description and not more? Those are all natural questions a discerning reader will have and if the article does not answer them, it just looks like a sloppy article. SlimVirgin herself said she is staying away because its too hard to get progress on the article. Why? because many skeptic editors are so heavy handed with WP FRINGE that they do not see they are actually getting in the way of creating a good article about an interesting person.
SAS81 (talk) 00:52, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
- To repeat myself, "Why bring it up in a manner that ignores the previous discussion?" "Why do you repeatedly focus on criticisms after all the discussion about them?" "Why...without acknowledging the previous discussions?"
- You continue to want to assume biases in others with your labels of "the skeptic editors" and then try to get article changes made based upon those assumptions. Again, you're the one with the bias. Assumptions that others have biases is disruptive. --Ronz (talk) 15:57, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
- Primarily; to repeat my answer above, because it was not the same discussion so therefore the foundation of your question doesn't make much sense to me. It may have been a discussion about the same source, but the context, application, argument and usage entirely different and entirely unrelated. Also the discussion had nothing to do with removing Clinton from the article. I'm sorry you feel this is disruptive, but I guess I could make the same accusation towards you if I took your position (which I don't).
- Secondly; Even if it was the same discussion, it was not a closed discussion and all arguments that you and the other suspicious editors were giving me were not even in the context of what I was suggesting. I'm not sure why you are putting so much weight into those rebuttals, especially because they were, to me, straw man arguments that did not even address my inquiry. Additionally, and I think this is something that would be great if you are aware of - when there are 3 editors who are trying to slam me left and right, then give me some exaggerated policy application that does not even address my actual argument but the one they are imagining in their minds I am making - I'm not sure why I need to readdress those types of discussions in the first place.
- Thirdly: Are you actually suggesting that those editors whom are avowed skeptics or whom have very strong suspicions about Dr Chopra are somehow NOT biased towards the subject matter? That seems like a stretch of the imagination. Maybe it's the elephant in the room no one wants to talk about - but talking about it and addressing it is not disruptive. I can see where my bias comes into the picture - why can't you? SAS81 (talk) 17:37, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but you don't appear to understand my concerns. If you want to continue a discussion, start a related discussion, or dispute a past discussion, you should not ignore the previous discussions as you do. That is disruptive.
- Yes, you've been grilled for your COI and related behavior. I've intervened and hopefully it will stop.
- Your continued accusations and assumptions about other editors, combined with your acting upon those assumptions, is disruptive. --Ronz (talk) 17:38, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
- Thirdly: Are you actually suggesting that those editors whom are avowed skeptics or whom have very strong suspicions about Dr Chopra are somehow NOT biased towards the subject matter? That seems like a stretch of the imagination. Maybe it's the elephant in the room no one wants to talk about - but talking about it and addressing it is not disruptive. I can see where my bias comes into the picture - why can't you? SAS81 (talk) 17:37, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
Ronz, you know after crying wolf more than once, claims like yours begin to lose a little credibility. I think that most neutral editors can see that I'm being called disruptive because I am questioning some assumptions of some of the editors. Focus more on content and the structure of your arguments - accusing me of being disruptive won't make arguments any more or less secure than they are. SAS81 (talk) 03:03, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
- Ronz. I am increasingly disturbed by your accusations which follow hard on the heels of the comments by others towards this editor which border on the vicious. I am concerned with the repeated use of the word disruptive when an editor tries to answer allegations against him. I notice the multiple times you mention Arbitration and sanction in reference to this editor, and that the expectation was that he would be sanctioned by now. I notice an experienced, uninvolved editor left this article based on the environment, and that deletions with out prior discussion, in her words, decimated the article. I don't see a biased editor. I see an editor new to this process who has maintained patience in the face of the self-named fringe warriors, and editor who is doing his best to understand and deal with the nuances of policy and guidelines which have been interpreted in several ways, none of which is necessarily right. You might read WP: POV RAILROAD.(Littleolive oil (talk) 21:04, 8 June 2014 (UTC))
- Thanks O :) SAS81 (talk) 03:03, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry you feel that way. I imagine that you're quite sensitive about these things given your involvement with related Arbitrations. I think it might be a good idea to review the findings again. Sorry you feel I'm harassing others. I'm always happy to clarify and refactor my comments. On the other hand, it might be best to avoid battleground assumptions completely. --Ronz (talk) 18:53, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
- Ronz. What I learned from my own experience is that there are those on Wikipedia who do not have support often because others are afraid to help them. So I want to make sure that such as it is; I support others as honestly as I can. Everything I said to you concerns me. I believe you've misjudged the situation with SAS and I suggest reevaluation might be a good idea. I am not assuming anything. I am though noting events. (Littleolive oil (talk) 19:19, 9 June 2014 (UTC))
- I'm not afraid to help anyone, hence my helping SAS even while I think he's being disruptive.
- As for the rest, I think that I'm doing the very same. --Ronz (talk) 20:04, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
- Good; we are on the same page.(Littleolive oil (talk) 20:08, 9 June 2014 (UTC))
- Ronz. What I learned from my own experience is that there are those on Wikipedia who do not have support often because others are afraid to help them. So I want to make sure that such as it is; I support others as honestly as I can. Everything I said to you concerns me. I believe you've misjudged the situation with SAS and I suggest reevaluation might be a good idea. I am not assuming anything. I am though noting events. (Littleolive oil (talk) 19:19, 9 June 2014 (UTC))
- Sorry you feel that way. I imagine that you're quite sensitive about these things given your involvement with related Arbitrations. I think it might be a good idea to review the findings again. Sorry you feel I'm harassing others. I'm always happy to clarify and refactor my comments. On the other hand, it might be best to avoid battleground assumptions completely. --Ronz (talk) 18:53, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks O :) SAS81 (talk) 03:03, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
- What i see is someone hell bent on promoting his employer. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:14, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
I see someone hell bent on ignoring good faith and civility and relying on wiki lawyering and harassment so they can justify their bias on a subject matter. One would think that if their positions were so strong, they could simply rely on the strength of their arguments. Since I can't do any editing, the strength of my arguments is all I have, and thanks to how Wikipedia works, all i need. SAS81 (talk) 03:03, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
- "pro fringe warrior pushing" You've repeated your accusations enough and they're now well-documentd. Please stop.
- I wrote, "If you want to continue a discussion, start a related discussion, or dispute a past discussion, you should not ignore the previous discussions as you do. That is disruptive." You ignored it. Why? --Ronz (talk) 18:56, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
- Ronz, again, please stop accusing me of 'ignoring' you or 'ignoring' past discussions. It's disingenuous. If I were ignoring you, the size of this talk section would be cut by 80%. I simply disagree with you and stated how i come to the conclusions I do. Saying that editors are 'Fringe warriors' is hardly an accusation, it literally is what they claim to be doing and the policy that I constantly get told to 'go read'. The more I focus on content, the more this little troupe of WP editors make aspersions regarding my intentions and behaviors. Try putting yourself in my shoes, how would YOU respond in such a situation? I have been very calm and respectful - but I also don't like to feel I'm being harassed or treated like the enemy. If you treat me like the enemy - your just getting the enemy back of your own creation. I wish you could reflect a bit more to see how you are playing into that dynamic. SAS81 (talk) 19:58, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
no editor uses the phrase 'I AM A WP: FRINGE WARRIOR', however they do raise the FRINGE banner extensively and proudly even and seem to focus very heavily on editors who they believe view the subject matter differently. Are you denying that you do not Hipocrite? Are you denying that you do not enforce the WP FRINGE guideline? Are you denying that your only interest in 'fringe topics' is to enforce that guideline? Do you deny that your motivation here, even on my talk page - is to guard Wikipedia against what you believe to be a biased point of view? You deny that, and I will consider your retraction. SAS81 (talk) 20:09, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
- I am a NPOV warrior. I guard an encyclopedia from people who would hopelessly distort it through their biases. I suggest you focus on content, not editors, as you have frequently requested of others - calling people fringe warriors without them calling themselves such is dramatically offensive, coming from a paid PR operative such as yourself. Hipocrite (talk) 20:12, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
- Well if you follow you own advice hipocrite, we would never be having this conversation. I'm glad you agree that calling people names that they do not call themselves can be offensive. If you stay consistent with that logic, I assume you will join the chorus of NPOV editors who do not like to have Dr Chopra called a New Age Guru in WP's voice for the same reasons.
- I'm just going to close this discussion out with a comment made by an admin on the COI noticeboard. If you cannot self reflect on your own behavior and continue to dance around policy to justify your harassment - perhaps the words of this admin will help you understand what's been happening from my perspective and help you all self reflect just a little bit more. It's copied below and the diff is here.
- As an uninvolved editor (with no intention of involving himself) I have to say that there's a problem where SAS81 is up against a bunch of involved editors with clear bias against the subject, judging by the repeated use of pejoratives here and elsewhere. That is not to say I disagree with the systemic bias we have in this particular case - I also think that Dr. Chopra is a snake oil salesman on any good day. But that's exactly the reason I would never involve myself in editing his biography. But we need to come up with a better solution than having a user with a declared COI and valid intentions go up against a small army of vociferous skeptics and wiki warriors. This should be handled neutrally from both ends. We can't ask SAS81 to be "nice" to us when they are assailed at every turn because they have a COI (!), or because we don't like his boss. As to how to do that... I have no idea. Maybe there's a kind soul amongst our more experienced editors that doesn't think badly of Chopra and can help out SAS81. But this situation tends to reflect badly on us as a community. And MastCell has a point, but all that excessive posting and forum shopping might simply be a reflection of SAS81's frustration at running into the same walls over and over. FreeRangeFrogcroak 18:50, 29 April 2014
SAS81 (talk) 20:25, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
What does it mean to you to be "without bias"?
(reposted from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Skepticism) - please answer here.
I'm curious, how do you propose that you can represent this materiel without bias when Deepak himself argues that objective reality is nothing more than shared subjective experiences shaped by personal experience (i.e., reality is biased). Honestly, I'm not being factitious, this is an honest question. What does it mean to you to be "without bias" from a biased worldview? --Dkriegls (talk to me!) 07:16, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- This is an absolutely fair question and I really appreciate you approaching me like this. I'm so thrilled with this question I've supplied a wall of text, sheesh! I also don't mind coming over to your noticeboard. As to what it means to be 'without bias' - I'm not sure that is possible for anyone to be without bias. However I do believe that where circumstances require, we can at least attempt to view issues without our personal bias and report on them the best we can and this is very possible and something journalists or researchers have to do quite often. It's just a matter of framing things so our own personal bias is removed from our language (and the encyclopedia's). For example, what you wrote above is actually does a pretty good job. You may not agree with Dr Chopra's assessment of consciousness - and you may agree with for example Dan Dennet's framework for consciousness so if you're writing an encyclopedia or building an archive, you would just report that x said this, y said that and you would attribute their voices, not the voice of the encyclopedia to their statements. Without bias therefore means INCLUDING all facts and attributing all points of view directly to their sources without being represented as a source for those views or facts. We also have to be careful not to mislead a reader by interpreting the work of an author through the lens of our own bias. This can be challenging. Imagine if you had to frame the point of view of say someone you don't like (if your a dem and you had to frame the viewpoint of the tea party for example). So this is where skeptic editors face a challenge too! I'm a little wonky nerdy type, so I actually enjoy this sort of work and challenge.
- Also, I would not assume that I have the same bias that say Dr. Chopra would have regarding his views. Before I got this gig, I was not a 'follower' of Deepak Chopra and actually never read much of his work. I also did not have much an opinion on it either. Now that I dive into this work, I've actually been a little shocked to discover many things that I assumed were true about Dr Chopra were my own misperceptions (for example, I assumed he was an alternative medicine practitioner, he isn't) and I also was not aware of the high level of acceptance Dr Chopra has on the world stage. So unless someone is an extremist of some kind, I think most rational people can be aware of their own viewpoints and be aware of how those viewpoints are being represented and can take responsibility to represent those viewpoints without using biased language.
- let's keep this discussion going, yes? I'm not the enemy, and believe it or not, I am fascinated by this 'problem' and I think we can work together to find a productive solution. I think this will speak well for the skeptic community and Wikipedia. Problem I have is that since skeptic groups or organizations have so committed themselves in a certain direction - if they reach out and work with an opposing viewpoint they get pressure from their own peers which prevents a solution from occurring since they have locked themselves into a debate and any resolution will cause them to lose respect or position. Very human problem that has nothing to do with the ideology behind it, it's just human nature getting in the way. SAS81 (talk) 14:33, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
I erroneously started this discussion in two places and it has carried on at the other location so I am closing this out. If you are interested in joining, see the ongoing discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Skepticism#Huffpo article by Deepak Chopra. Cheers, --Dkriegls (talk to me!) 05:59, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
User page
I have semiprotected your userpage, you seem to be a vandalism target these days. Let me know if you want it removed at some point before expiry. Cheers, --kelapstick(bainuu) 17:26, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you sir! I was actually going to ask you if you could do that but you beat me too it. SAS81 (talk) 17:39, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
- And now talk page. You sure made someone angry.--kelapstick(bainuu) 19:09, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
- yikes. thanks again. I don't take it personally, it's not me it's the subject I am representing who has indeed upset many people. I'm getting used to it. SAS81 (talk) 22:31, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
- Eh, don't take it personally, or even attribute it to the topic. I have seen this happen to editors from all strips, no matter the position taken, especially if they edit a contentious issue. There is no known way to predict which side of an issue the trolls will fall on, except extremely bizarre conspiracy theories, they always seem to come out to defend those. ;) Dkriegls (talk to me!) 05:47, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
- yikes. thanks again. I don't take it personally, it's not me it's the subject I am representing who has indeed upset many people. I'm getting used to it. SAS81 (talk) 22:31, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
Regarding your userpage: You're treading into WP:SOAP, WP:USERPAGE, and WP:COI problems. Best to keep the material on yourself and your work brief and relevant to your being part of Wikipedia. --Ronz (talk) 19:11, 9 June 2014 (UTC)