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:: This message is brought to you not trolling but in trying to understand where you are coming from. [[User:Barney the barney barney|Barney the barney barney]] ([[User talk:Barney the barney barney|talk]]) 23:35, 8 May 2014 (UTC) |
:: This message is brought to you not trolling but in trying to understand where you are coming from. [[User:Barney the barney barney|Barney the barney barney]] ([[User talk:Barney the barney barney|talk]]) 23:35, 8 May 2014 (UTC) |
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::: You first, Barney. You know, so I can know where you are coming from. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">[[User:Liz|'''''L'''''iz]]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">[[Special:Contributions/Liz|'''''Read!''''']] [[User talk:Liz|'''''Talk!''''']]</font></sup> 23:41, 8 May 2014 (UTC) |
::: You first, Barney. You know, so I can know where you are coming from. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">[[User:Liz|'''''L'''''iz]]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">[[Special:Contributions/Liz|'''''Read!''''']] [[User talk:Liz|'''''Talk!''''']]</font></sup> 23:41, 8 May 2014 (UTC) |
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{{od}} Liz thank you for your very thoughtful answer. Despite what barney is telling you, my role and my arguments are not about medical research or arguing for or against a medical source. The problem on the article simply involve biographical facts about the subject which are pretty straightforward. The majority of the editors hold very strong suspicions about the subject matter and not allot of knowledge (for example, Dr Chopra is not even an alternative medicine practitioner, yet the article was stating he was) and therefore are either omitting facts about his biography or framing them in such a way as to give the reader the same suspicions they hold. I just want the article to list biographical facts about the subject with the proper weight and neutrality. Just having one or two rational voices on the page would be very helpful to help editors stay neutral with the sources and the weight. Of course, seeing how you are already being harassed for even speaking with me, you see the problem getting quality neutral editors involved. No one wants to deal with the harassment :( [[User:SAS81|SAS81]] ([[User talk:SAS81|talk]]) 19:37, 11 May 2014 (UTC) |
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== ''The Signpost'': 07 May 2014 == |
== ''The Signpost'': 07 May 2014 == |
Revision as of 19:37, 11 May 2014
Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 51, 52, 53, 54 |
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and everyone else's input is merely an obstacle to overcome is an accurate summary of how you ended up in this position.
Basalisk inspect damage⁄berate 4 August 2013
Well said!Liz Read! Talk!
16 May 2024 |
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Tips for the angry new user - Gamaliel
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AR Notification
You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Battleground Off of Rupert Sheldrake and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—
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Wikidata weekly summary #105
The Signpost: 09 April 2014
- News and notes: Round 2 of FDC funding open to public comments
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Arbitration request declined
The arbitration request involving you (Rupert Sheldrake) has been declined by the Arbitration Committee
The comments made by arbitrators may be helpful in proceeding further. In particular, several arbitrators noted that the article is subject to Discretionary sanctions, so issues should be handled at WP:AE For the Arbitration Committee,--S Philbrick(Talk) 19:37, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for letting me know, S Philbrick. Liz Read! Talk! 00:41, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
Why are you acting hostile?
Hi Liz,
As you probably know, I am one of those editors who prefers to work in content building rather than spending time "talking". However I do recognize the necessity of communicating as long as it does not become my only contribution. Anyway, the reason I am posting to your talk page today, might be a little unusual. I would like to ask you this blunt question in the hope that you are willing to spend your own valuable time to help me understand. So here goes:
You have always been very friendly to me, but have turned sour recently starting with this User_talk:Ottawahitech#WikiProject X in the Signpost. And today I see you have become hostile. Is it me, or is wikipedia in general getting to you. Thanks in advance, XOttawahitech (talk)
- I don't think I'm acting hostile. I have good feelings towards you, Ottawahitech. But that doesn't mean I agree with all of your editing decisions and you don't agree with mine. You've reverted a number of my edits and I don't take it personally. We disagree about how to file the Signpost articles in the topical categories but I didn't challenge your reverts even though I stated that I thought filing the articles under "Signpost" was better than under "*". I didn't want to and still don't want to edit war. I let it go. It's a minor dispute and it's not worth fighting over. There is plenty of other things to do.
- My recent comment on your talk page was to encourage you to archive the content as it is way too big and it is hard for people to find conversations. That's not hostile, that's a suggestion. Editors give me suggestion on Wikipedia on a regular basis. It's not a put-down or an insult...it's advice on how I could work better on Wikipedia. I listen and if I think the words have merit, I try to put the advice into practice. If it's clear that the other editor and I see things differently, I say, "Thanks, but no thanks." I would hope other editors approach constructive criticism similarly.
- I assume if I transgress some Wikipedia policy or make a thoughtless or redundant edit (it happens!), you, or someone else, will point it out to me. Look at my talk page and you can see editors pointing out mistakes I've made. But I would only consider it hostile if there were name-calling and personal attacks and I did neither.
- So, no, it isn't you and no, it isn't Wikipedia. It just means that sometimes, editors acting in good faith will disagree. If my comments were too blunt, then I sincerely apologize to you, Ottawahitech. I never meant to slight you or hurt your feelings. Liz Read! Talk! 22:59, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
- The reason I thought you were acting hostile is that your edit stopped my ability to revert User :Arthur Rubin's deletion in my page. You are probably not aware, but Mr. Rubin has been editing my user space for a while knowing full well I object, even though my understanding is that my user space is mine to do what I want with. I apologize if you were not aware of it, it just seemed that your timing was unusual in its proximity. Peace XOttawahitech (talk) 23:39, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
- No, Ottawahitech, I had no idea my edit effected your ability to revert another edit. I've come across Rubin's name elsewhere on Wikipedia but I wasn't aware he was editing your talk page which is totally out-of-line. I had that problem when some former editors contacted me on my talk page and another editor kept coming in and deleting our conversation because it was supposedly a blocked user (although I was never given proof that was the case). So, I believe that editors' should control the content of their talk page, my comment was just that maybe you should just keep one or two months' worth of comments and archive the bulk of what you have. I find it easiest to do so by date so I can find things more easily but I am having problem with my bot set-up and have to manually go in an copy and paste to get comments on the right page. Liz Read! Talk! 23:51, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
- @Ottawahitech:; I deleted a duplicate section on your talk page. I realize that you have (to a great extent) control over your talk page, but I never imagined you would object to removing duplication. You also never said you objected to my posting to your talk page. I only made one change in your userspace, in which it appeared you had miscounted the (almost entirely justified) deleted edits. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:24, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- No, Ottawahitech, I had no idea my edit effected your ability to revert another edit. I've come across Rubin's name elsewhere on Wikipedia but I wasn't aware he was editing your talk page which is totally out-of-line. I had that problem when some former editors contacted me on my talk page and another editor kept coming in and deleting our conversation because it was supposedly a blocked user (although I was never given proof that was the case). So, I believe that editors' should control the content of their talk page, my comment was just that maybe you should just keep one or two months' worth of comments and archive the bulk of what you have. I find it easiest to do so by date so I can find things more easily but I am having problem with my bot set-up and have to manually go in an copy and paste to get comments on the right page. Liz Read! Talk! 23:51, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
- The reason I thought you were acting hostile is that your edit stopped my ability to revert User :Arthur Rubin's deletion in my page. You are probably not aware, but Mr. Rubin has been editing my user space for a while knowing full well I object, even though my understanding is that my user space is mine to do what I want with. I apologize if you were not aware of it, it just seemed that your timing was unusual in its proximity. Peace XOttawahitech (talk) 23:39, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
This Month in Education: April 2014
Anna Koval (WMF) (talk) 21:44, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
Category:Articles about possible neologisms from March 2014
When you tag empty categories for deletion, please leave the category text. It makes checking before deletion easier. Thanks. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:11, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- I've been doing tagging empty categories for months now and I never heard this before, Vegaswikian. Is this both for monthly categories as well as subject categories? Liz Read! Talk! 17:14, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- Actually it is easier to leave it in both. The monthly cleanup ones can go as soon as they are empty. For the others, it makes it easier to check if the category was emptied out of process. Though any check is not without issues. Also, G7 works faster when it is a valid request in place of C1. You had at least one of those. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:17, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- Well, my aim is to stop having these empty categories appear in parent categories. Would it be alright if I removed their assigned categories but left any text on the page? I don't mean to be splitting hairs, I just thought a blank page looked cleaner than one full of information that was no longer relevant because the category was empty. But I'll leave the text on the page and I'll try to remember to use G7 if I created the category instead of C1. Liz Read! Talk! 18:23, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- Actually it is easier to leave it in both. The monthly cleanup ones can go as soon as they are empty. For the others, it makes it easier to check if the category was emptied out of process. Though any check is not without issues. Also, G7 works faster when it is a valid request in place of C1. You had at least one of those. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:17, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
Category:American women philosophers
Category:American women philosophers, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:43, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- Why am I not surprised, Obi-Wan Kenobi? Just a continuing crusade against gender-based categories. Liz Read! Talk! 10:22, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
- Facepalm yeah, like yours [1], or your crusade against jews being from Middle East, or your crusade to vote keep for all gendered cats no matter how much they violate our guidelines. Be fair Liz -- cats are created by individuals but they are kept or deleted by consensus, I'm just putting them forward to the community, and the community has agreed with me 95% of the time. There are also thousands of gendered cats that I will never touch and that I have actually expanded and added hundreds of women or men to. So please lay off the rhetoric and use of the word crusade, it's uncalled for and misplaced and wrong . I go after cats that violate guidelines, whether gendered, LGBT, race-based, not defining, subjective, etc. I have a special focus on non -diffusing cats since those make it sometimes too easy to ghettoize. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that , not surprisingly, this category has already ghettoized 35 women philosophers. Remember what happened when one woman novelist got ghettoized ?-Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:36, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
- Liz, sometimes when I nominate a gender- or ethnicity-based cat for deletion, you oppose and accuse me of trying to dismantle the whole "women" tree. Let's turn the tables and allow me to understand clearly your POV. Do you believe that for every neutral category of people X, we should create a category of "Women X"? If not, in what cases should we NOT create "Women X", and in what cases *should* we? For example, we have a category Category:Embalmers, with 5 people in it. Should we create a category Category:Women embalmers below it? If so, why? If not, why not? There are 195 subcats of Category:People by occupation, but only 104 "Women by occupation" and only 22 "Men by occupation". Should we have 195 top-level cats for women and 195 top-level cats for men? I'm trying to figure out where your line in the sand is, since it's obviously different than mine.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:09, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
Books & Bytes - Issue 5
Books & Bytes
Issue 5, March 2014
by The Interior (talk · contribs), Ocaasi (talk · contribs)
- New Visiting Scholar positions
- TWL Branch on Arabic Wikipedia, microgrants program
- Australian articles get a link to librarians
- Spotlight: "7 Reasons Librarians Should Edit Wikipedia"
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 17:54, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
Wikidata weekly summary #106
The Signpost: 23 April 2014
- Special report: 2014 Wikimedia Conference—what is the impact?
- News and notes: Wikimedian passes away
- WikiProject_report: To the altar—Catholicism
- Wikimania: Winning bid announced for 2015
- Traffic report: Reflecting in Gethsemane
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Wikidata weekly summary #107
Escrituras
This group of people (read noticeboard) are sabotaging articles for to justify a hypothesis that they believe is true. --Pownerus (talk) 01:38, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I have no idea what you are talking about with these articles. I was just responding to a complaint on the AN/I board and encouraged you to talk out your differences with other editors on the article talk pages. You should try to work things out rather than get into an edit war. Liz Read! Talk! 02:44, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
Wikimedia Highlights from March 2014
- Wikimedia Foundation highlights
- Data and Trends
- Financials
- Other highlights from the Wikimedia movement
The Signpost: 30 April 2014
- News and notes: WMF's draft annual plan turns indigestible as an FDC proposal
- Traffic report: Going to the Doggs
- Breaking: The Foundation's new executive director
- WikiProject report: Genetics
- Interview: Wikipedia in the Peabody Essex Museum
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- Recent research: Wikipedia predicts flu more accurately than Google
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Jerry Pepsi
Regarding your revert of my deletion of one of Jerry Pepsi's talk page comments, I said at the time that my deletions were based on the fact that, as the sock of a banned editor, he was not allowed to edit Wikipedia anywhere at any time, but that if any editor in good standing thinks that one of my deletions should be restored, I had absolutely no problem with that. So if you see any others, please don't hesitate.Best, BMK (talk) 21:45, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Well, that is not what I expected your talk page comment to say, BMK. I'm not looking over his contribution list, just watchlisting a few pages where he has been active. In general, it seems like JP had a tendency to remove material he thought was improperly sourced and he seemed to have the reference books at hand so I thought his questioning of the addition might have merits. But I don't expect to do so again.
- Editors' attitude toward sock puppets does interest me. It's not just your reaction to JP, it's every time a sock account is uncovered, the admin response is swift and unforgiving. The only time I've seen a harsher response is recently when an accused editor introduced copyright violations and invalid sources. I know it is all a matter of maintaining the integrity of Wikipedia so I understand the blocks. There is just so much more emotion involved in these cases than in a block for edit warring or having a COI. Liz Read! Talk! 21:57, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe long-term editors like you and I and most admins have so much invested in Wikipedia, and those problems (socking and copyvios) seem more destructive to the viability of the institution. I remember reading somewhere that a country which can't control its borders is not really much of a country at all (shades of the current Ukraine crisis!), and socking is a direct attack on Wikipedia's borders.
My own reaction to Jerry Pepsi and the rest of Otto4711's socks goes back to some really nasty disputes between us in the earliest days of his socking. It's so enervating to try to deal with someone who's both unreasonable and nasty and won't even think about compromising. (I think I may have taken a block for edit warring with him with an earlier ID, that may have added to my hearty dislike for the person.) Anyway, I've sort of made it a pet project to keep track of his antics, and to get him blocked whenever he's recognized. BMK (talk) 23:05, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Okay, that makes sense, BMK, I didn't know you had a previous run-in. My attitude about socks is that it is so incredibly simple to create an account, I think a fair share of regular WP editors have alternative accounts that they don't declare. I'm not saying that the accounts are used deceptively (heck, these accounts may not even have been used at all and have 0 edits), but I'm betting that they exist.
- I believe this after encountering several cases where there were sock-fighting editors, who had been around for years, who, it turns out, had their own sock accounts and they later found themselves blocked. So, if even a few anti-sock editors also sock, there is more of it going around than people want to acknowledge. Like I said, I think most of it hasn't swayed AfDs, RfAs ARBCOM elections and the like because it is low level and not destructive. But I'm sure more of it exists than anyone realizes. Liz Read! Talk! 00:05, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
- I absolutely agree with you, and if I was King of Wikipedia, and if it was technically possible, I'd require the entire community to declare 2 or 3 working acounts that are visibly and obviously linked to each other, then I'd run check user on everyone and nuke the rest of the accounts. From then on, that's it, amnesty is over, you edit with another account or you edit deceptively while logged out (avoiding scrutiny) and *bam* you're indef blocked, no questions asked, no long drawn-out discussion. If it were that clear-cut than the good editors who keep an account on the side "just in case" (they tell themselves) won't be tempted to do it, and we would know who we're talking to when we're talking to them (as much as we can "know" while using pseudonyms). To me the whole "no fishing expeditions" requirement of CU is ludicrous, I'd rather control the borders so that we can all get on with editing, and require that a CU be run at anyone's suggestion at any time. (And I say all this despite the fact that I have two previous accounts, and have registered a bunch of names similar to my username to keep them out of the hands of people who might like to use "Beneath My Ken" to get at me - but each of them is clearly labelled as what they are.) BMK (talk) 00:30, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
- Well, we would have to multiply the number of checkusers by 100 times! Another thing I've learned is that just about every single administrative area on WP is understaffed and could use more eyes and hands. So, we'll just have to go with rooting out the most egregious offenders. Liz Read! Talk! 00:57, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
- I absolutely agree with you, and if I was King of Wikipedia, and if it was technically possible, I'd require the entire community to declare 2 or 3 working acounts that are visibly and obviously linked to each other, then I'd run check user on everyone and nuke the rest of the accounts. From then on, that's it, amnesty is over, you edit with another account or you edit deceptively while logged out (avoiding scrutiny) and *bam* you're indef blocked, no questions asked, no long drawn-out discussion. If it were that clear-cut than the good editors who keep an account on the side "just in case" (they tell themselves) won't be tempted to do it, and we would know who we're talking to when we're talking to them (as much as we can "know" while using pseudonyms). To me the whole "no fishing expeditions" requirement of CU is ludicrous, I'd rather control the borders so that we can all get on with editing, and require that a CU be run at anyone's suggestion at any time. (And I say all this despite the fact that I have two previous accounts, and have registered a bunch of names similar to my username to keep them out of the hands of people who might like to use "Beneath My Ken" to get at me - but each of them is clearly labelled as what they are.) BMK (talk) 00:30, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe long-term editors like you and I and most admins have so much invested in Wikipedia, and those problems (socking and copyvios) seem more destructive to the viability of the institution. I remember reading somewhere that a country which can't control its borders is not really much of a country at all (shades of the current Ukraine crisis!), and socking is a direct attack on Wikipedia's borders.
Wikidata weekly summary #108
WikiCup 2014 April newsletter
Round 3 of the 2014 WikiCup has just begun; 32 competitors remain. Pool G's Adam Cuerden (submissions) was Round 2's highest scorer, with a large number of featured picture credits. In March/April, he restored star charts from Urania's Mirror, lithographs of various warships (such as SMS Gefion) and assorted other historical media. Second overall was Pool E's Godot13 (submissions), whose featured list Silver certificate (United States) contains dozens of scans of banknotes recently promoted to featured picture status. Third was Pool G's ChrisGualtieri (submissions) who has produced a large number of good articles, many, including Falkner Island, on Connecticut-related topics. Other successful participants included Cliftonian (submissions), who saw three articles (including the top-importance Ian Smith) through featured article candidacies, and Caponer (submissions), who saw three lists (including the beautifully-illustrated list of plantations in West Virginia) through featured list candidacies. High-importance good articles promoted this round include narwhal from Reid,iain james (submissions), tiger from Cwmhiraeth (submissions) and The Lion King from Igordebraga (submissions). We also saw our first featured topic points of the competition, awarded to Czar (submissions) and Red Phoenix (submissions) for their work on the Sega Genesis topic. No points have been claimed so far for good topics or featured portals.
192 was our lowest qualifying score, again showing that this WikiCup is the most competitive ever. In previous years, 123 (2013), 65 (2012), 41 (2011) or 100 (2010) secured a place in Round 3. Pool H was the strongest performer, with all but one of its members advancing, while only the two highest scorers in Pools G and F advanced. At the end of June, 16 users will advance into the semi-finals. If you are concerned that your nomination—whether it is at good article candidates, a featured process, or anywhere else—will not receive the necessary reviews, please list it on Wikipedia:WikiCup/Reviews. If you want to help out with the WikiCup, please do your bit to help keep down the review backlogs! Questions are welcome on Wikipedia talk:WikiCup, and the judges are reachable on their talk pages or by email. Good luck! If you wish to start or stop receiving this newsletter, please feel free to add or remove yourself from Wikipedia:WikiCup/Newsletter/Send. J Milburn (talk • email), The ed17 (talk • email) and Miyagawa (talk • email) 17:57, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
May 2014
Do not remove my comments, as you have done here [2]. If you do it again, action will be taken.
Regards,
Evildoer187 (talk) 23:12, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
- That was an edit conflict and had nothing to do with you, it could have happened with any editor who was also editing AN/I at the same time. My apologies, I didn't realize my edit removed your comment, it was certainly not intentional. Edit conflicts happen on AN/I fairly often because it is a heavily edited page. Liz Read! Talk! 23:16, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
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Thanks and an FYI
Thanks for your tag on Qamaruddin Chishti Sabiri. Just so you know that is one of a number of articles that have been the object of some very aggressive, and arguably disruptive, agenda driven editing by Summichum. He recently gutted a bunch of articles he didn't like down to stubs, and then tagged them for CSD. I don't know that background to it, but there appears to be some kind of edit war going on between proponents of two different Islamic sects playing out on in a bunch of articles. -Ad Orientem (talk) 13:36, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, Ad Orientem, I saw the complaints about Summichum on WP:EWN and decided to look at his edits where he removed 1500 or more characters from articles (it was often between 2500-4000). Luckily, there are other editors looking into his edits as well so many of the larger deletions have been reverted. But thanks for the thanks! Liz Read! Talk! 13:47, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
Hi
I appreciate you coming to my defense. However, I have decided to leave Wikipedia voluntarily. The way that thread is going, it looks like that may be the ultimate outcome anyway. I know that we have disagreed in the past, but I bear no ill will. The only thing I can hope for now is that the articles sort themselves out.
Evildoer187 (talk) 01:55, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
Bouncing
Of course you can ignore this comment as a Who Asked You? — but I find the bouncing Wikilogo distracting & annoying. (But then, the other day someone called me a Grumpy Old Man.) Sca (talk) 15:58, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
AE Notification
There is an AE request that may concern you. Thanks, The Cap'n (talk) 06:57, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
MAW
Actually, if you bothered to do some homework, you'd see that WP:MAW was created a few years ago. Adding the acronym is no problem. So time to move on and do something else I guess. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:06, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
could I ask for your assistance?
Hello Liz! You recently made a comment on my talk page and I've looked into your history here. You seem like a breath of fresh air. I hope this is not an inappropriate question to ask, but Deepak Chopra's article could use a rational mediating voice and was wondering if this could attract your attention. An admin (freerangefrog) has already commented on my COIN and specifically requested non involved or neutral editors could come and help out due to the skeptic activity on the page. One user whom you know who offered to help is being harassed. Another user you know has offered to help but also wants to back off because of the harassment. I represent an archive and am a researcher - I have ethics too and my job is to work within Wikipedia policy specifically, I'm not a PR rep or a marketing rep. I've even asked Atama, an admin I respect very much, if I could offer WP REWARD in the form of a donation to Wikipedia for editors who volunteer to come in and help. It's just been difficult to have a rational discussion - I think if some rational voices participate it will become more productive. Any help, advice, participation very meaningful over here. Sorry if this is out of line too. I think I have the ok to reach out for help, but every step I take according to Wikipedia BLP I also get called out for by some editors and everything I do in some eyes is wrong :( SAS81 (talk) 19:08, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
- SAS81, I think there is still a reward page here somewhere but I don't think it would help your case. I think I understand your position, I have both worked on grant projects and I worked at an archive for close to two years, both of these projects have articles on them or their sponsoring organizations. I can easily see a colleague asking me to work on their Wikipedia entry while I was affiliated but that doesn't mean someone is a paid editor, a PR person or even an official representative of a group. It does mean there is an inherent conflict-of-interest but, from what I've seen, you have been transparent and forthcoming about this.
- The conflict is that there are editors on Wikipedia who are believe that any scholar or author who writes about science (off-wiki) be either a practicing scientist or someone like a journalist who specializes in writing about the sciences. Even an age-old and respected practice like acupuncture comes in for exceptional scrutiny. I think the key is "what are you (that is, any editor or the subject of the article) claiming to be true?" If there are claims that some course of treatment has health benefits, there will need to be reliable sources to support that assertion (and this excludes literature by the individual or organization). A problem that some new editors have is that they include assertions taken right out of the books of the authors without being able to back up the claims with references to reliable sources, particular in medicine or health research.
- As far as my involvement, well, let's just say I'm wary. I don't know anything about Deepak Chopra other than that he's a best-selling author but I've never read any of his work. But because I have defended editors who are sympathetic to alternative science or alternative medicine, there is guilt by association and there will be other editors who will object to anything I have to say, without assessing its value. But it sounds like this is already a situation you have found yourself in! I can take the heat but I'm not sure how much anything I say will impact the article. That is, I'm not sure my opinion will hold any weight and I'll be effective. I also can't promise that there will be any agreement with your views and how I think the article could be shaped up. But I do have an open mind and I aim to abide by all of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.
- Soooo, what I will do is look over the situation and see if I can be of any help. I also might ask another editor or two if they think participating is wise. But, on Wikipedia there is no WP:DEADLINE and nothing is WP:PERFECT so there is always time and room for improvement, if not today than at some point in the future. Liz Read! Talk! 20:55, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
- Liz (talk · contribs) - that's an interesting response. I have some questions, which I hope will do two things. Firstly, if you answer them well, you'd be demonstrating good medical knowledge and hence WP:COMPETENCE - which is required, and I (and I'm sure other watchers) would be much more confident of your ability to step into this discussion (and similar), which is clearly something you've been thinking about doing.
- So, in relation to your comment above:
- Who do you think acupuncture is "respected" by? Medical professionals?
- If so, why do you think that [medical professionals, or whoever] respect, or should respect it? Because it's old? Because you think it works?
- Who do you think acupuncture is "respected" by? Medical professionals?
- Moving on to some general medical questions:
- Do you know what a randomised double-blind, placebo-controlled medical trial is? Do you understand why this is a gold standard?
- Do you understand why trials are double-blind? i.e. do you understand how they can go wrong if they're not double-blind?
- Do you know what a placebo is? Do you understand why trials are placebo-controlled?
- Do you understand how medical trials are implemented imperfectly? (e.g. such things as publication bias, false positive, false negative, medical fraud)? If so, how do you think these things affect alternative medicine?
- Do you know what a randomised double-blind, placebo-controlled medical trial is? Do you understand why this is a gold standard?
- Meanwhile, doctors use treatments that have been shown to work (in double-blind, placebo-controlled medical trial), even if they're not sure how those treatments work. The docs will prescribe the treatments while a medical scientists works in a lab, probably with animal models, to try to figure out why this is, and maybe even improve the treatment. But in such cases, it's possible to derive a hypotheses, albeit even a very general one, in terms of existing biological knowledge. For example "we think this drug binds to a protein which affects the behaviour of a cell - we're just not sure which protein it binds to, or what the cascade effect of this is"). This is known as cause and effect.
- In medical context, how can acupuncture (or other alternate treatment of your choice) produce a desired effect?
- Thanks in advance for your considered response.
- This message is brought to you not trolling but in trying to understand where you are coming from. Barney the barney barney (talk) 23:35, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Liz thank you for your very thoughtful answer. Despite what barney is telling you, my role and my arguments are not about medical research or arguing for or against a medical source. The problem on the article simply involve biographical facts about the subject which are pretty straightforward. The majority of the editors hold very strong suspicions about the subject matter and not allot of knowledge (for example, Dr Chopra is not even an alternative medicine practitioner, yet the article was stating he was) and therefore are either omitting facts about his biography or framing them in such a way as to give the reader the same suspicions they hold. I just want the article to list biographical facts about the subject with the proper weight and neutrality. Just having one or two rational voices on the page would be very helpful to help editors stay neutral with the sources and the weight. Of course, seeing how you are already being harassed for even speaking with me, you see the problem getting quality neutral editors involved. No one wants to deal with the harassment :( SAS81 (talk) 19:37, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
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