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I don't have anything against you personally and I found you quite reasonable to edit with on the Lyall Howard article, but you concern me very much as you seem to be completely singularly focused to the point of being obsessed with getting your own way. Meanwhile, you seem blinded to the fact that ignoring both pro- and anti-inclusion people when they tell you the same thing about having a break and editing something else for awhile, is only making the situation worse. If you do not have political motivations for editing, I don't understand the complete focus with regard to these edits and this article. Have you looked at your own contributions? You are looking like a [[WP:SPA|single purpose account]] as you very rarely edit outside this topic. Have a look at any of the other involved editors contributions and you will see how dramatically single purpose you and Brendan look; this would really go against both of you and likely result in at a minimum, a topic ban at both the Community Sanctions Noticeboard and arbitration. Please consider respecting everyone's wish that you give us a break and go and do something else on other unrelated articles for a little while. [[User talk:Sarah|Sarah]] 17:44, 18 September 2007 (UTC) |
I don't have anything against you personally and I found you quite reasonable to edit with on the Lyall Howard article, but you concern me very much as you seem to be completely singularly focused to the point of being obsessed with getting your own way. Meanwhile, you seem blinded to the fact that ignoring both pro- and anti-inclusion people when they tell you the same thing about having a break and editing something else for awhile, is only making the situation worse. If you do not have political motivations for editing, I don't understand the complete focus with regard to these edits and this article. Have you looked at your own contributions? You are looking like a [[WP:SPA|single purpose account]] as you very rarely edit outside this topic. Have a look at any of the other involved editors contributions and you will see how dramatically single purpose you and Brendan look; this would really go against both of you and likely result in at a minimum, a topic ban at both the Community Sanctions Noticeboard and arbitration. Please consider respecting everyone's wish that you give us a break and go and do something else on other unrelated articles for a little while. [[User talk:Sarah|Sarah]] 17:44, 18 September 2007 (UTC) |
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==Unbelievable== |
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Read this reference. [http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2005/s1494795.htm], in fact read any of the references in the David Hicks article and try to find any one who says he was part of the Taliban and trained with Al Qaeda. Hicks writes home about it. 04:22, 29 September 2007 (UTC) |
Revision as of 04:22, 29 September 2007
Mont St Quentin
I noticed it was an anniversary today and it seemed a shame to leave it as a red link - the article needs work as it was an important battle for Australians: not just because of the Howard connection - also three Victoria Crosses and a significant set back for the Germans ... Thanks for your comments though - it is nice when one's efforts are acknowledged. Regards --Golden Wattle talk 00:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Cheers, 'Golden Wattle'Lester2 01:02, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Lyall Howard
I sent an email to the email address you used to email me about your block. I just forwarded some of the articles that I found on factiva last night...I don't know if there's any that you haven't seen yet, but we can use non-online sources like articles and books and such. His story seems to have been included in a book about the war, which would be good to use because that is outside the context of the John Howard biographies. Sarah 01:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I concur, it is a rather unfortunate word to use. Do you know what the equivalent word would be in modern terminology? Proxy ownership??? Sarah 01:55, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I sent the articles again. We don't need to change the dummy word but if there is an article on the same concept we can wikilink the word to that article. Also, I'm a bit concerned that the PNG section of the article might have undue weight in the context of the overall article. I'm going to change the "references" section to "notes" and then add a "references" section for articles and books which haven't been used in the citations. And I think the external links section should go last. That's the usual format: notes > references > external links (have a look at Australia for an example. Also, I think it would be good to use articles other than that David Marr article as the footnotes because that article is seen by many as an attack piece. I think it would be better to have that in the external links but use different articles for footnotes. Sarah 02:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think we should restructure it so World War I is one section and then the second section would be post war, which would include his various business interests, the PNG stuff, CSR, etc. Having the PNG thing in a separate section high up in the article is the main thing which makes it look like an attack page. Sarah 02:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- The headings might be okay, I'm just not really keen on a section and heading "PNG interests" because of the risk of undue weight, which is something people are complaining about. Do you have a picture? If it was taken before 1955, the copyright would have expired. Sarah 03:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think we should restructure it so World War I is one section and then the second section would be post war, which would include his various business interests, the PNG stuff, CSR, etc. Having the PNG thing in a separate section high up in the article is the main thing which makes it look like an attack page. Sarah 02:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I sent the articles again. We don't need to change the dummy word but if there is an article on the same concept we can wikilink the word to that article. Also, I'm a bit concerned that the PNG section of the article might have undue weight in the context of the overall article. I'm going to change the "references" section to "notes" and then add a "references" section for articles and books which haven't been used in the citations. And I think the external links section should go last. That's the usual format: notes > references > external links (have a look at Australia for an example. Also, I think it would be good to use articles other than that David Marr article as the footnotes because that article is seen by many as an attack piece. I think it would be better to have that in the external links but use different articles for footnotes. Sarah 02:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- No worries. It was taken in 1916 and so it is definitely PD now. Sarah 04:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Tag teams
I'm not interested in tag teams or edit wars! All I did was restore to the current version as per the status of the discussion, the version I removed is similar to version I think is appropriate for the article but until consensus is established the current one should stay in place, because it is factual there isnt any liability concerns, the question is whether its relevant to JH. Gnangarra 04:57, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Request for Mediation
If you have questions about this bot, please contact the Mediation Committee directly.
Regarding your factually untrue mesage to Vassyana
Regarding RfM John Howard
Hello Vassyana. I had submitted the John Howard article for mediation Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/John_Howard, which was rejected. I noticed your signature at the bottom of the page, but there was no comment or recommendation on what to do next. I haven't been through a mediation process before, nor do I know what to do next.
There's disputed information in the article. Those who favor inclusion seem to be more willing to mediate. Those who want the information omitted seem to me to be less willing to mediate. There doesn't seem to be much room to compromise. Discussions are heated and personal. Edit wars are common. People get blocked routinely. It would have been nice to resolve it one way or the other just to put such a hot issue to rest.
What do you suggest to resolve an issue like this? --Lester2 13:26, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, those against have compromised already but don't feel able to compromise further. Those against inclusion also feel that the Lyall Howard article fails notability and would prefer to see that article deleted as well. However, they agreed to withdraw the AfD and place a link to that article from the main JH bio in lieu of directly discussing the investments JH's father made ten years before JH was born and sold when JH was only ten-years-old. That was a major compromise from people who sincerely believe the Lyall Howard article fails notability. When you've compromised all your ground already, there is nothing left to mediate. Most of the people opposed to inclusion are very unhappy about us keeping the Lyall Howard article, but they have tried to offer a compromise in good faith. Furthermore, many people, including people who actually agree with you to some degree have asked you to give it a rest for awhile. I suggest that is what needs to be done to resolve this issue, instead of forum shopping across multiple venues: various admin talk pages, article talk, ANI, the Village Pump, etc. Also, people do not get blocked "routinely". The last people who were blocked (ie Brendan and Prester) were blocked because of their rv warring on another unrelated article. Honestly, this misinformation is starting to make it increasingly hard to assume good faith. Please stop spreading misinformation and forum shopping. We also need to be mindful given the approaching election of the fact that the two prominent warriors in regards to inclusion of this information have a history of other disruption on this and other articles with equally partisan edits. Sarah 15:10, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
- Hello Sarah. My conversation with Vassyana was not a formal submission to any mediation group. It was one-to-one conversation, so it would have been worded differently if it was any official thing. I don't expect Vassyana will be arbitrating on the subject, so I wasn't trying to influence her one way or another. I'm surprised how quickly you follow my edits. Do you manually refresh my contributions list, or can Wiki users install a bot to alert them? Also, you seem to think Brendan and I are POV editors, whatever that is. But everyone always thinks those on the opposing side of a content dispute are POV editors. When I read the Wiki rules, the copra plantation issue fits within those rules perfectly, and is not POV pushing. Sarah, I don't want to have a personal dispute with you, over article content. I like a lot of your work. I like a lot of the things you stand for. We disagree on the copra information. We probably won't agree on that one. In the next week or so I'll try to present a more persuasive argument for why copra fits into Wiki rules, and post it on the talk page. Cheers, --Lester2 15:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
- Like most admins I'm sure Sarah has a reasonable watchlist (per "my watchlist" at the top right of this screen) - I have about 3,000 on mine and catch a lot of stuff that way. The way I see it is that the claim is only relevant to the article if it improves Wikipedia's understanding and knowledge of John Howard. There are some things which do so which would lean towards a more positive view of him, and other things which do so which would lean towards a more negative view. But there are other things which have almost nothing at all to do with John Howard and adding them is not only, as in this case, seemingly controversial, but for no good reason. If my father had have been involved in something prior to my reaching the age of 10, the chance of my knowing or caring about it, let alone being involved, would be next to nil. If one is looking to question John Howard's credibility in public office, relying on a sugary comment by Howard about his own childhood (which also, to my view, should not be there as it adds nothing) then refuting it is not the way to go - stick to the "never ever"s, broken promises, switched views and other things he's done either in office, or as an individual before entering office. To some, the above comments look overly fixated on the copra issue, and speaking as someone that is trying despite time constraints to fix a whole heap of pages before the election (elections, electorates, MPs, issues etc), we have too much important work to do and not enough time to argue about this sort of stuff, and I'd personally welcome your assistance of the politics project's efforts elsewhere. Orderinchaos 23:53, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
- Hello Sarah. My conversation with Vassyana was not a formal submission to any mediation group. It was one-to-one conversation, so it would have been worded differently if it was any official thing. I don't expect Vassyana will be arbitrating on the subject, so I wasn't trying to influence her one way or another. I'm surprised how quickly you follow my edits. Do you manually refresh my contributions list, or can Wiki users install a bot to alert them? Also, you seem to think Brendan and I are POV editors, whatever that is. But everyone always thinks those on the opposing side of a content dispute are POV editors. When I read the Wiki rules, the copra plantation issue fits within those rules perfectly, and is not POV pushing. Sarah, I don't want to have a personal dispute with you, over article content. I like a lot of your work. I like a lot of the things you stand for. We disagree on the copra information. We probably won't agree on that one. In the next week or so I'll try to present a more persuasive argument for why copra fits into Wiki rules, and post it on the talk page. Cheers, --Lester2 15:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Lester, I'm not worried in the slightest about arbitration. Firstly, Vassyana is not an arbitrator (though Blnguyen is) and secondly, this is not an arbitrable case. It is a content dispute. It could very easily become a arbitrated case, however, if we wanted to obtain bans or topic bans on people who are bringing their political agendas to Wikipedia articles. What upsets me is that you are forum shopping, apparently looking for a particular response instead of showing some good faith and accepting what you have been told by numerous people, including those actually agree with you, who have asked you to give it a rest and move onto something else for the time being. And it also upsets me that you are making false and misleading claims all over the site. If you are sincere about editing the article within policy, you really should respond to the policy based comments that have been raised, instead of creating red-herrings and strawmen and then you would take up Gnangarra's offer to try to write this material in a way that fully meets WP:BLP, yet not one single person has made any real effort to attempt to do this. I can't help but wonder why people who claim to be attempting to write a NPOV article which isn't disparaging to the subject, don't simply take us up on that offer. I know that Brendan hasn't tried to because he won't be happy unless he can write it in a disparaging way, like he did the last time when he wrote that JH's recollection of his family as people with certain values, is "questioned" by Lyall's investment in legal copra plantations. Are you seriously arguing that that is consistent with WP:BLP and WP:NPOV?
I don't really know what you mean about bots. I don't have any bots and you shouldn't run bots without getting permission from the Bot permissions group because if they malfunction, they can cause a lot of damage. I saw your edit on Vassyana's page when I looked at your recent contribs after I saw you on the Village Pump misleading people and giving them false information. I wasn't refreshing your contribs either manually or with a bot, I simply clicked on your name. I don't know if that answers your question or not, but I don't advise you to start running any bots on your account or you will most likely be blocked indefinitely.
I don't have anything against you personally and I found you quite reasonable to edit with on the Lyall Howard article, but you concern me very much as you seem to be completely singularly focused to the point of being obsessed with getting your own way. Meanwhile, you seem blinded to the fact that ignoring both pro- and anti-inclusion people when they tell you the same thing about having a break and editing something else for awhile, is only making the situation worse. If you do not have political motivations for editing, I don't understand the complete focus with regard to these edits and this article. Have you looked at your own contributions? You are looking like a single purpose account as you very rarely edit outside this topic. Have a look at any of the other involved editors contributions and you will see how dramatically single purpose you and Brendan look; this would really go against both of you and likely result in at a minimum, a topic ban at both the Community Sanctions Noticeboard and arbitration. Please consider respecting everyone's wish that you give us a break and go and do something else on other unrelated articles for a little while. Sarah 17:44, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Unbelievable
Read this reference. [1], in fact read any of the references in the David Hicks article and try to find any one who says he was part of the Taliban and trained with Al Qaeda. Hicks writes home about it. 04:22, 29 September 2007 (UTC)